KourteousKrome

Class Rigidity Question for Devs/Insiders

What are thoughts on looser class roles?

Comments
Because of how Pantheon works in terms of combat design, you can DPS as a Paladin as the strict, rigid demand on DPS perfection isn't as required as in other games. However, the requirement is more heavily on what I call the triangle of control. That means Tank, Heal and Support/Control archetypes.
Where the goal is to take a very choatic and ultra dangerous situation where single mobs can wipe a group easily, and being able to bring it under control. From there it's a process of management of aggro, resources, adds, respawn and mob variances as with the Disposition system, as well as communication within the team through a methodical and synergistic approach.
From here, DPS is mainly to more quickly kill something but not a requirement. However, where it does play out is from experience acquisition over a given amount of time. More overall DPS or more efficient DPS whether direct, indirect or circumstantial is ultimately used for that purpose.
Saying that, you should have no problem being DPS on your own or even in a group if a slot is opened and you wish to join. It also helps to understand that it's not just Heal/Tank/DPS or even just Tank/Heal/DPS/Support-Control. You can utilize a mixture of those to include Utility functions/abilities to aid your group and through the combination, you could be as valuable and even more so than what a DPS would have provided in that slot. It may not be all that likely but it's possible to be at level if not beyond.
This is a much more informative answer than most I get. Most I get are “paladins are tanks” and that’s it.
I REALLY dislike the idea of a class being railroaded into one specific role. You reduce game complexity when you do that, because a Paladin is a Paladin is a Paladin, so five paladins in a group and they are all tanks and nothing else. It’s boring as shit.
In practice, I think you'll find the route that Pantheon is going lends itself to much more flexibility and choice compared to the rigidity of a talent tree system that exists in WoW. Reason being here is that most abilities are not going to be dependent on taking one other ability before unlocking another one, so you would be able to tap into a specific number of total abilities from your kit no matter what, and you will be able to mix and match them as you please with the only limit being the number of abilities you can use.
With the hypothetical you've proposed, it will be possible and relatively likely (compared to other MMOs) to join a dungeon group as a DPS/support as a paladin and your effectiveness will be determined by what abilities you choose out of your toolkit to fill this role. If you were aiming to fill that DPS/Utility role, you would likely not use one of your limited action slots on "Wrathful Aegis" which is an AoE agro generator, maybe you would still use Brilliant Aegis because an AoE blind has some utility use, maybe as a support you'll run Hymn of Stronghold to support the tank or maybe Hymn of Devotion to support your healer, maybe you'll keep incite so you can offtank in a pinch, or maybe the the extra agro from fervent strike on stunned enemies is enough for you to OT successfully without generating too much agro...what I'm getting at is that this is just the tip of the iceberg and depending on the situation you can select any mix of abilities you want from your total toolkit to fill a role.
Compare this to WoW, where you have abilities and their effectiveness locked behind talent trees and tiered abilities, in this style of you can pick whatever you want at maximum effectiveness but you're limited by how much you can use at once so pick what abilities you want to use carefully because every choice matters and switching mid combat is either difficult or impossible. As an example, I played a Shadow Knight in EQ1 whose kit is a mix of direct damage, dots, tanking, and utility abilities and depending on my role I'd use different things. A group with low DPS, I'd load up on DoTs and other efficient DPS spells for longer fights, shorter fights more prevalent I'd load up direct damage, I kept feign death as a utility spell about 95% of the time, pet and pet buffs were an option, group lifetaps and mana restoration abilities that I would only use if my group tended to have more casters, group attack power tap if my group had more melee, multiple siphon life and mitigation spells if I was tanking, an invulnerability spell if I was pulling. There are just so many options and you think of your class differently than in a talent tree system.
With group sizes set at 6, some allowance for hybrids is certainly there. It wasn't uncommon in EQ1 to have a SK or Pally as a 6th, with the SK covering pulling and the Pally covering spot heals/group heals (depending on era) as well as doing some dps.
That said, I don't think it's wise to expect something similar to a "fury warrior" or "ret paladin" style dedicated dps role within the classes. That stuff didn't really come into its own until the 2nd expansion for WoW, and thus I think it's probably not in the scope of "old school MMO".
Like I’ve said to someone else, it was more in line with old school RPGs, like pen and paper, which allow for more builds and hybridization. I wasn’t expecting it to be a pure dps, I just don’t want to tank 100 percent of the time. Paladin/Crusaders are always my favorite class in all fantasy games but I’m not the type of person that enjoys tanking constantly.
This seems very similar to the post from 4 months ago (you're not the same person are you? I'm assuming you're not spamming and this is a separate person posting).
If you want to read the discussion there, there's like 100 comments on this topic. In general, a Paladin's role will be to tank. If the group has another tank and is willing to give you one of their spots, you can technically act as a DPS but you will not come close to the amount of DPS that an actual DPS class (like a Rogue or a Monk) will be able to do. And a group without a tank in a game like Pantheon definitely will not take a Paladin who says they are DPS and not tank. Class roles in Pantheon in general will be specific in this way. No dual-roles, or at least no dual-roles where the secondary role even comes close to being as effective as someone who plays a class of that primary role. They aren't following the WoW path of being able to essentially be whatever role you want with any class.
Wasn’t me, but thanks for directing me to it.
Also, this isn’t a WoW thing, but it’s something that has always existed in RPGs going back to pen and paper. I am a little leery of RPGs with a super rigid class role system, because it limits player choice and their ultimate experience role playing their character.
Talking about making hybrid classes is kinda silly in this type of mmo. From what has been noted here that type of class hybrids are one of the things that hardcore players complained about that ruined mmos today. If you want to dps play a dps character . If you want to tank play a tank. This mmo is about making hard choices and forcing you to play roles in order to succeed in this game.
Its a great question that is going to be really interesting to see how far behind dps a dps geared tank would be, i hope it is a decent chunk behind the other dps classes, but noticeably and satisfyingly more than a defence orientated tank . The main thing will be what skills / buffs you choose on your limited hotbar, You will be able to bring all your non (or less) tank related skills onto the bar with your best dps weapon and load up your equipment towards stats into what will modify damage as opposed to defence and you have built yourself a basic dps paly. However you have to expect you will not top the dps as a paly even geared in that way and that's just something people will have to be happy with as they bend the role of the classes to their liking. Paly is definitely the way to go if you want to be able to tank at times, off heal and throw in some dps as you mentioned. I would however expect if you're a paly and the only tank class in a group at any given time, your best bet would be to be ready to tank and accept that is the decision you made when you started the character, that will be the expectation of the other group members, in the absence of another tank.
Most importantly I think choose a class based on what you want to do most, and then flex your muscles into other roles to see how it performs.
Maybe the positioning of a tank class that is looking to dps (ie behind the mob) might increase some dps for them naturally. VR say positioning will be important, that could flow over to tanks as well as the traditional backstabbers
People should have to go out of their way to discover alternate character pathways. The classes shouldn't be designed with anything but the specific class in mind.
"See thats how it starts, first it DPS than its road blocks..." (walking tall movie quote)
Can you sure. Will it be a good idea of help to a group? Nope. I would not take a DPS Paladin anymore then I would a Rogue saying they are a tank. Your group will be bad.
Ppl will min max. You don't want to then make your own grps. Thats what a social game is. I would rather no class homogenization so any class can be anything.