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There's good news about height discrimination

There was a post earlier on here about height discrimination, and I found the discussion surrounding it on this sub pretty interesting. I feel like for the most part we're on the right track and trying our best to find the right path forward. Even those that got the downvote hammer.

Comments
This is very well laid out and well written.
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5'6 gang checking in! Honestly, I don't have a lot to add, but I appreciate the post and agree with your points.
TBH, it's taken me a long time to accept my height. I've always been jealous of those that are big, strong, and imposing without having to work for it at all. To a large extent, I think we subconsciously respect height. I know I do, although that may be exacerbated by my own size.
I think what's helped me some with my own comfort in my height is seeing people I respect who are short. A couple years ago I had a manager who was a couple inches shorter than me. He was also whip smart and I looked up to him.
I would say the only thing I regret about my size has to do with athletic ability. I'll never be able to dunk (although I do hope to touch the rim).
Even the "I looked up to him" expression is unconsciously pushing in favor of "the taller the better" mindset.
Spud Webb wis 5’6 my man you could definitely dunk if you dedicated enough time to it
You do have some athletic advantages at least. There are a ton of athletic feats I’d love to be good at that are not feasible, or at least incredibly difficult, for me as a tall, bulky man. Rock climbing, backflips, pull-ups, even just running for more than a few minutes a day is too much wear and tear for my body to handle. You got to play to your strengths.
I think there's one point you're missing.
We can create systems for addressing this issue in the workplace. Simple stuff; I'm remembering an anecdote about how, when symphony interviewees played behind a curtain, the number of female players jumped dramatically. We abstracted away the unconscious bias and that is good.
A lot of the frustration here comes from lack of romantic and sexual success, which is a lot harder to create systems around. That's where a lot of the misogyny comes from in these spaces, too.
I fully support taking steps to make sure we see short men (and short people in general) as whole individuals. Trying to move the needle on romantic and sexual preferences is just extremely difficult.
While I don't take issue with your point, it's unclear if blind auditions/ interviews actually help help to reduce sex discrimination in the hiring process and there are some major
The former will organically go a long way to addressing the latter.
Romantic preferences don't just bubble up from nowhere. They're deeply culturally informed. If we change representation of short men in the culture and especially the media from negative to neutral/positive, women will face less social stigma for dating men who are shorter than them.
Also, if we deal with patriarchy, that also means that we won't be teaching women that they always need to take up as little space as possible (in relationships or otherwise) and or that they aren't competent on their own and need protection. All of that is entangled in the desire to feel tiny/dainty/protected.
Think media representation is the only way to have an effect on sexual desire.
I don't have any statistical evidence to back this up, but I strongly suspect the romantic/sexual discrimination is easier to overcome than you may think. There are, in fact, women who are specifically drawn to shorter men (take a look at
You're right that it's challenging to build formal structures in that space but I think by taking the initiative and expressing to romantic partners that we're comfortable enough in our own masculinity to overcome other people's perceptions, those partners will feel more comfortable as well. If society can learn to accept interracial couples and gay couples, I see no reason that short/tall couples of any gender combination can't be normalized. (note: I am neither equating these types of discrimination with one another nor attempting to dismiss discrimination still faced by interracial or non-heteronormative couples; I'm referring only to similarities in the process of normalization)
This, of course, is all speculation, because personally I am not yet confident enough in myself to make that particular leap.
Here’s an idea: we should stop judging another man’s masculinity based on his success with women. A lot of that anger isn’t just because they can’t get laid. They desire to get laid constantly because that’s what they (and their peers) think masculinity is all about. Yet they blame women and feminists even though its mostly men and anti feminists who mock men for being virgins.
These systems implemented to address discrimination are what inspired me to only date blind people
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Amen. As a fellow short guy, my experience closely follows yours. Some people seemed to relish in being verbally or physically cruel to me and other short men until I was in my late 20s. I had less than zero confidence; I didn't even feel human. When anything went wrong, I couldn't help but wonder if it was partly because of my height. It follows you like a cloud of doom.
What's interesting is that I find that I can connect with feminists or marginalized people by empathizing. For example, when women bring up experiences of not being taken seriously, talked over, physically intimidated, or labeled "bossy" or "demanding" for daring to be assertive, I explain that as a short man, I know exactly what that feels like without trying to one up them. Often it's the first time some people have really thought of "heightism" as being a systemic prejudice---one that they might hold themselves. Intersectionality yo.
As for personally dealing with or observing heightism, I have four don'ts:
If people keep goading you, disengage. Either they will apologize or they're not worth being around.
I like your four don'ts, but I'm curious about the Don't Debate point. Is there a specific reason why you don't debate*, or can you give an example of what happened when you did debate?
I can see how debating could lead to either party getting defensive or leading to hurt feelings, but I think debate could also be a good way to change people's minds about the issue.
Please let me know if you're willing to share.
EDIT: Spelling* decade instead of debate
How can average height guys (or tall guys) help out short guys?
May I add, 5: Don't act entitled to women's affection even if their rejection does come from a place of prejudice. There's a difference between criticising desirability politics on a societal scale, and behaving as if a given individual owes you sex or romance. The point is to find someone who'll genuinely accept and love you.
As a tall woman who has experienced life long height discrimination I appreciate this post. Why I’m forever indebted to GOT for creating not one but two love interests for Brienne. That was a first in my lifetime of tv/movie watching and I agree more short men need to be represented.
Tahani in The Good Place is a good example of this as well. And the actor who plays her is big on having more on-screen romances between tall women and short men.
the height stigma is so foolish. I have two good buddies who are dating women MUCH taller than them (6" or greater difference) and all of them were super awkward about it at first until they realised it was bullshit.
So now i often think good on them for not giving up or letting precoceived shit derail their relationships. now both couples are super loved up and in it for the long haul. and they could have missed out on that if they were closed-minded!
That movie tall girl must feel like a gut punch? I am relatively tall also and it's awful that attitudes towards myself and slightly shorter partner are still so toxic.
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I've always compared it more to dating above (or below) a certain weight. Breast size is in some ways a better comparison (because it is more difficult to control) but I think it falls short (this is a pun landmine here) because we have so many examples of beautiful women in the world with B and even A cups. There are far fewer examples of short men and overweight women being beautiful in society.
Then again it is not a perfect analogue since people have at least some control over their weight so we might reasonably find weight preferences more palatable than height ones.
I've also heard of girls being prescribed hormones to stop them from getting too tall.
Something that I wish was highlighted more often is height as an accessibility issue.
I'm a 4'10" trans guy. Due to my height I am incapable of holding certain jobs. I'm technically short enough that I shouldn't be driving a car or riding in the front seat with an airbag because there's a chance it will kill me.
I want to build a world that is more friendly to short people. More short people being included in design teams and in management positions would help. It's very common for people to not really consider how a system will work for those who are different from them, and that's one reason that diversity in leadership positions is so important.
Accepting that height is a variable along which humans differ tremendously is important to creating a world that is welcoming and accessible to short people.
Agreed on all points. Even as short as I am, I'm not short enough to disqualify me from any jobs other than maybe Air Force pilot or something.
Something that I appreciate is that, as trans men, you guys are in a unique position to shed light on this, and a lot of other related body positivity issue for men. Just wanted to put that out there.
Yes, someone mentioned the physicality of height as an accessibility issue! I'm 5' 1", though that one inch is from the tallest mornin-measured height and so I'm clinging to it. Personally I've always hated the 'across the chest' seat belts - because it isn't chest height for some of us, it's right across my throat/face, it's dangerous.
I think it's also important to understand why designed things always fail for certain people. Let's take the car as an example.
When defining the sizes of everything like seats and the steering wheel the designers will take out a study about the size of people. From these studies they take a bell curve of height, hand size, width, etc. The general rule of thumb is to then chop off the lowest 5% of the curve and the highest 5%. This will result in size ranges for 90% of people.
It sounds like you are in that lowest 5% for height. I happen to be in the highest 5%. We will both have issues with almost everything that is designed for the masses.
The issue from a design perspective is a very practical one in that it becomes increasingly difficult to design for 90+%. It's very much a exponential relation between effort and percentage of the bell curve.
Edit: reading it back made me realize this might sound dismissive. If so I'm really not trying to be. Just trying to provide a perspective from the designers side.
At least at my country, people of 4'10" can drive with the same possibilities as a person taller. Just changing the position of the seat is possible to drive for me, for example, but I think the minimal measure here is 4' 7" (If there is any). Some cars are better adapted than others, but for now I have tried in three cars and I think they are better prepared for short people than for taller ones...
There are other jobs which indeed ask for a specific measure, and I totally agree that it needs to change.
I don’t have much to add, just wanted to say hello fellow short trans guy (though i’m 5’1”).
Quite right!
I don't contribute much to this sub but I read it a lot. It gives me hope for the future, even if its just a small piece.
Yeah I honestly feel for you guys. Im 6'6" and the amount of times people or women have compared (in person) me to a shorter than average person is ridiculous.
Its humiliating and just horrible. But for whatever reason people never seem to see why its so wrong.
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"Man, it's annoying when people bring up my height constantly."
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😜
"people or women"
I think one of the biggest things is helping our teenagers learn that being short isn't the end of the world. I've only just entered my twenties and my height matters less and less (i'm 5'3 lmao), but the damage I did to my self esteem in my teens still lingers over me like a dark cloud and it still fucks with my confidence to this day even when i'm in situations when women find me attractive. It's an insecurity i'll probably be carrying for the rest of my life and I just wish another short man was there to convince me that it's not the end of the world and that it's all in your head.
I think I'm in the opposite situation
This is really well written.
I was basically blind to height discrimination until I moved from the states where I'm above average, but not tall (5' 11"), to the Netherlands where I'm below average, but not short.
It's been very weird. I caught myself having less confidence and being more sensitive about my height even though I'm happily married and still not that short. It's been eye opening to get a taste of the pressure short guys are under.
This is a fantastic writeup!
This is really well thought out and well-written. Appreciate your take!
All good points! Thanks for the post—something good to refer folk to the next time a discussion of height gets unhealthy heh.
Good post OP. I'm 5'10" so I'm fortunate to have never really experienced height discrimination, but I briefly dated a woman who was 6', and the amount of commentary we received about how I should feel emasculated by the difference in our heights or joking about how she was really the "man" in the relationship was mind-boggling.
Just gonna add: there’s intersectional issues involved, too. Namely ableism and transphobia. Jokes ridiculing short men take people with dwarfism and trans men as collateral specifically. Treating short men as creeps or fools plays into images of disabled people and trans people as creepy and ridiculous.
Ethnicity can also come into play. People of Latin American and Asian descent are shorter on average than people of European descent, and that height difference has been known to show up in racist caricatures of the former groups.
EDIT: On the flip side, Black people are often stereotyped as bigger than people from other ethnic groups.
For sure. My take here is purely heteronormative, because I'm speaking from my experience and I am heterosexual. I could take guesses as to how this expresses intersectionally, but honestly I'd be out of my element there and it would be better off to leave those perspectives up to others in this community who could do that way better than I ever could, and just follow their lead in that respect.
Very well written. You’ve changed my mind on a few things. Thank you.
Love this post and all the wonderful discussion around it!
Although I'm a very normal 5'8" woman now, I was always the tallest person in my class - I hit 5'8" when I was in 7th grade. A marginally shorter boy I had a crush on made fun of my height then, and so I started slouching. It's a habit and an insecurity I've struggled to break ever since.
Hollywood is mentioned in your post, so I thought I'd see what folks here thought of the movie Tall Girl on Netflix. I liked it for the most part, but had mixed feelings about the kiss at the end of the movie, where the short guy's Big Romantic Gesture was carrying around a box they he could stand on when he kisses her. On the one hand, it seemed to acknowledge and assauge the female character's insecurities, which was rather sweet on an interpersonal level. But on the other hand, his gesture contradicted the message the movie was trying to send, which is that height shouldn't matter. Anyone else see Tall Girl and have thoughts?
Really well said. This isn't something I hear talked about a lot, but it seems obvious to me just from my experiences in life. I'm don't even have to deal with it myself, but it was clear to me growing up, from conversations, humour, and parables, that socially speaking being a tall man was better than being a short one.
I'm lucky to be around a relatively diverse group of people these days so it's less of an issue, but I very much remember feeling very uncomfortable in groups where someone's physical characteristics were often the butt of the joke. Even though it didn't affect me directly, I couldn't help but feel anxious. Because the subject could easily have turned to a subject I wasn't so lucky in, with just as little empathy shown.
I love your post and wanted to share a few things that may help you define what your wrote even more clearly, if not please ignore.
My journey to self realization has been empowering, tender, and subtle. Thanks for your comment. Rehumanizing is a good term, many people need it. My therapist suggested nonviolent communication and I’ve been meaning to give it a go.
I love you both
I hope I don't break any rules here, but I find myself wondering when I read about this topic: What exactly is "short" anyway? I'm 173 cm tall (=5'6") and I never thought of myself as short. My brother is a little shorter than me and while I realize that he's not a tall guy, he still doesn't feel short to me. Most of my coworkers are around my height, some are maybe around 180 (=5'9"), but quite a few are also a bit shorter. I live in Switzerland btw.
I also very rarely had people telling me I'm short. Obviously nobody told me "wow, you're tall", but I've never gotten the impression that I'm short. Is this a Europe/America thing?
Sorry if I break any rules, not trying to shame anybody or something like that, I'm just kinda confused here.
It's disproportionately (though by no means exclusively) an American thing. I can't find the reference now, but I have seen it alleged that US is the most height-discriminatory society in the world.
173 cm is 5'8". 180 cm is 5'11".
I am also about 173 cm tall and I have never thought of myself as short either. I am also from Europe, so maybe it really is more of an American thing. But also 173 cm is not that far from average so I don't think we can really tell.
I’m about 5’9”, AMAB. I also have EDS so when I was a kid, I looked particularly tall on account of being lean and having long arms. Got asked often: “you must play basketball huh?”
Hitting puberty was awful, because I am also trans, but being average male height for the US undoubtedly had its privileges. I never really felt one way or the other about me height, largely because it wasn’t a subject of discrimination to be a tall dude.
Being a tall trans woman is like... an ugly stereotype. A liability to passing. A thing that will turn people off. I still don’t find myself wishing to be shorter even as I specifically identify things that cause me dysphoria, but it will be a strange challenge to go from being casually tall and honored for it to being casually tall and loathed for it.
I'm not so sure. I see where this comes from, but it does make the assumption that women naturally gravitate towards feminism. But I think once you remove the Reddit filter, and broaden the scope to more ordinary people in the dating pool, you might find patriarchal notions are spread as aggressively across the gender spectrum.
I think a lot of people who grow up in rural areas could tell you, woman can be as commonly patriarchal as the patriarch himself. Personal bias can hide this especially if your community selection actively leans left.
Me—a 5'6" guy—reading this post.
I really don't know how I feel about this. I'm not saying men are further along than women with regards to it, simply that it seems like the kind of discrimination we get from the two genders is fairly incomparable, due to having different effects and intensities, as well as people having different priorities. It seems like it's coming from patriarchal society in general, but to say it comes more from men than women or vice versa would be kind of a stretch.
I get the impetus not to blame women for their sexual choices not jiving with your desires, but we would have no problem faulting a man for problematic sexual tastes that came as a result of social conditioning. It seems to me like if someone displays height bias, they should be treated as someone who displays height bias, regardless of their gender.
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In my opinion sexual attraction is personal and no one should be judged for what they personally find attractive. What's important is that people aren't dehumanized for whatever qualities they do or don't possess, and that society as a whole be shifted so that better examples and portrayals can be found.
A porn star committed suicide recently because she was bullied because she didn't want to do scenes with a female co-worker. Other porn stars are accused of racism for not wanting to do scenes with people who aren't white. It's my opinion that sexual preference should never be on the table as something to judge someone over. What matters is whether or not a person takes active steps to try and hurt people, especially when those steps are deliberate.
Anyways sorry I'm rambling. I guess I just wanted to say that I don't have any problem with a guy having preferences whatever they are. The problem I have would be if he were to mock people who fail to meet those preferences.
I'm a feminist (and sub here because I care about men's issues & feel everyone needs liberation) and this discussion of heightism is spot on.
It's an area that merits more thought and self-examination from virtually all of us, as our society is built on a hierarchy that privileges tall men (and women, in a lesser, twisted reflection of this) over short men very literally. Our language, the sports we prefer, the fact we (falsely) equate height with penis size and both with sexual prowess, assertiveness and ability, our standard sizes for buildings, public spaces and vehicles, all favor tall men and put obstacles in the way of short men.
This means of course that we're losing out on having the most capable leaders possible, just as with sexism, by filling leadership positions with less capable tall (white) (straight) (Christian/esque) men.
When I began exploring my bisexuality I had to confront my heightism head-on. Suddenly my assumption that all my partners would be taller than me was challenged. And that was a good thing because there is no harm in leaning down to kiss a hottie!
"our standard sizes for buildings, public spaces and vehicles" Uh that's not necessarily true, I've lost count of how many times I've hit my head in buses or on doorways or been cramped up with regards to leg room. Where did you get that idea from though?
I think you're right about women not caring as much at it may seem. I personally have had crushes ranging from the smallest guy in my class to a dude a head and a half taller and everything in between. For practical reasons, I'm not really a fan of guys being much taller, but only because it makes them much harder to reach.
I've also only had 2 female friends insisting on wanting taller guys, and guess what happened? One got a shorter boyfriend, the other got one who was the same height as her. So in the end it wasn't the deciding factor.
Not to mention of course, men are also susceptible to the height discrimination mentality, albeit not always manifesting in the same way. The focus on romantic or sexual attraction isn't always good, because it belies the problem that this issue is also more generalised, such as shorter men being seen as weaker or somehow less capable in a business setting on some kind of subconscious level.
Also worth noting that some men feel emasculated by taller women.
Thanks, very interesting.
This is kind of off the point of height discrimination, more about methodology. Can I ask how you arrived at this list by comparison with feminism? E.g. did you specifically compare with say body-shaming, or just a more general comparison feminism? For the sake of argument, how would you respond if I said this list wasn't faithful to 'true' feminism, or 'that's not how feminism achieved results'?
I ask because I see two key strategic problems facing this movement - the first is being seen as credible by women's feminist groups (I think of this as a man's feminist group, but the labelling is not too important to me), and the second is being seen as credible by MRM-leaning men (because they are the ones we need to reach). How we relate to feminism (borrowing ideas, challenging false representations, etc) massively affects both of these issues - and you've done a great job of that here.
This comes from an observation about how feminism has tackled body shaming. And yes, I would definitely like to be aware if this isn't faithful to true feminism.
As to the second point: the credibility in feminist groups depends heavily on staying aligned with the methodology and with reality. As for the mrm's though, I'm not necessarily as dedicated to reaching the ones with no desire to be reached.
Trust me, it's a good thing menslib blocks the crosspost bot, because I got quite the handful of... interesting mentions from these types this morning. I'd probably be a bit more irritated if they weren't so humorous.
What I will say is need to be aware here that height discrimination has been heavily utilized by the alt-right and the MRM as one of the many entry points into their toxic internet pipeline. Put yourself in the shoes of a teen boy googling something like "why do girls not like short guys" and they're greeted by a flurry of contradictory articles that are out of touch, dismissive, or overreactive, and then you get the result from reddit that has some incel freaking out about it. And the first thing the teen might naively think is "the incel is the only guy who's understands this."
My goal here is that we shouldn't allow incels be the first people that you encounter on the internet that ever "acknowledges" the problem, and aligning our message firmly with the proven methodology in feminism is key to that.
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Interestingly, in my experience it has been the 5'2" (as a example) height girls who were specifically seeking out above average height in their male partners. I'm 5'8", so under average but not super short, and I've had better luck in the dating world with women who were 5'6" or actially taller than me. Rejections on a basis of height only ever came from girls on the signifigantly shorter side.
Obviously this is anecdotal so it's no confirmation of behavior, but I've heard similair from others about it.
I agree with this for the most part. I want to delineate a point here though, I do think there's a significant component of height discrimination in the dating world, with a few caveiates.
For one, it's not nearly to the level that incels claim. Not even close. Their interpretation comes from a place of misandry and male entitlement. Odviously, I got married.
Secondly, my experience is that this component is more significantly pronounced when you're younger, and dilutes as you age. Which is a result of the media problems I mentioned. We're much more susceptible to media when we're younger, and that includes romantic preferences.
I remember when I was 19, I couldn't even fathom the idea of dating a woman who was older than me by even a minute. The really funny thing about this though was that the only reason it ever even occured to me was because I was in denile about this woman I had a crush on who was 21. 21. It's funny, I know. But now here I am 7 years later married to my 31 year old wife.
But see, this is why I think men are the biggest propagators. Women, like anyone else, refine out the presence of media influence on sexual preferences. That doesn't make it not a problem, but still. But the heightism that men in the workplace experience follows us everywhere, forever. They never age out of it, and they're less likely to acknowledge it.
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In thinking about this, I thought, I think of myself as <number>’<number>.5” - which really tells you all you need to know, right? Like, why would I think it was important to suffix a half inch to my height, if I didn’t think it mattered - and the only reason it matters, is because we are in a society where it matters.
I agree that height discrimination is real, and wrong; I sympathize. I try to counteract it in my own life, and encourage others to also.
Disney did us dirty.
I never considered how better representation might help break the toxic attitudes in the workplace and dating scenes around height. It makes sense; given more examples of short people doing normal things, people might be less likely to shoehorn you into either the "feeble" stereotype or a Danny Devito knockoff (overly macho/confident to "make up" for being short, as if being short were a deficiency) I also never made the connection between all those articles talking about tall CEOs of Fortune 500s and how height discrimination can seep into a professional setting rather than just being confined to dating.
Perhaps the only part I would disagree with. I've almost never seen height requirements with other men on dating apps while it's been rather common with women. I'd say different genders push the height issue different based on context, but that's just my experience.
Tbh I always thought people were using height as a proxy for dick size (ex: calling someone a "small man"), which is its own can of worms (ex: "Big Dick Energy").
Let me clarify that. I meant this purely heteronormatively. In my experience, I get a lot more height discrimination at my workplace, from other men, than I ever got from women in the dating world. And as I got older, the heightism from women in the dating world started out extreme and diluted as I got older (and as they got older). Whereas heightism from men in the workplace never changes.
I think the other men rather than women part was meant in a very heteronormative way, that straight men propagate the idea that more straight women refuse to date "short" men, than straight women who actually refuse to date shorter men.
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I don't think you had any malicious intent when typing your comment, so don't interpret my response as a harsh rebuttal, but I think you're engaging in some victim blaming here.
First, let me note where I agree with you: while I wouldn't go so far as to say that most of the impact of heightism on men is self-inflicted, I do think a good portion of it is internally sourced. But I don't think the blame can fully be saddled on those people: when someone's self-esteem is sufficiently damaged they will often begin acting in ways that are self-defeating. It is, effectively, trauma rising to the surface that causes some men to obsess over height-related issues or be unwilling to believe that someone could find them attractive. It's a maladaptive response to an external social stimulus which protects their egos from further harm by avoiding ever getting their hopes up in the first place.
I take similar issue with your example of "short guys with big personalities." I don't think it should be necessary to compensate for stature with a big personality, in fact, I don't think stature should require compensation at all. The fact that examples of short men succeeding often include some element of what I'm going to call "performative stilts" to elevate them past the damage done by their lack of height is itself revelatory of how real the issue is.
All of this said, I agree with what I think was the main thrust of your post, that upon acknowledging this societal bias men have two choices: persevere in the face of it and seek healthy coping tactics when overwhelmed, or collapse. They should certainly choose the former, for their own good; but I think it's important to acknowledge that this is a truly difficult thing to do, and may be out of reach for some men who have a long way to go in rehabilitating their mental health.
As a 172cm (5'8) man who works as a substitute teacher, I've found that was unable to command much respect in the classroom until I got in the habit of using shoes with extended heels, which gave me an extra 5 cm (2 inches) of height. Goes to show that this attitude towards short men is learned att quite a young age
Agreed with all points!
[Sorry if this was already mentioned]
I've noticed in all the grotty, low payed jobs I've had, most men have been my height or shorter (I'm 5'7").
And, sorry, but if a taller person does show up, I admittedly think, 'huh, there must be something wrong with them'.
I like men on the short side more than the super tall ones - In the end it really doesn't matter, but If I have to choose - cause it's just more comfortable. Of course, it would be hard to be shorter than me, but still. I also know a few short dudes that are drowning in pussy, and my mother was constantly telling me how much better I would look in heels - I fucking hate heels, while my father kinda hoped I would grow a little more. My point is I had no compassion for my fellow shorties of the opposite gender. Every time a dude complains how women don't want him cause he is short, I cringe a little because I see it as a generalization and an excuse...
I’m a woman so I don’t think my opinion matters much here, but I just wanted to say this is very well written and I agree with everything you’ve said here.
While I haven’t experienced it myself, being a female POC, I’ve dealt with my fair share of discrimination, and the right way to go about things is very much how you’ve described it. Nice job.
All I want to say is that myself and others would disagree vehemently here. :)
This is a feminist space, your opinion here is as valuable as any man's.
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Great post
Men's rights movement
As a short man I appreciate this post.
I've had discussions about height with my wife and I truly do believe that I would have been a very different person if I were taller.
That being said, I don't think I'd very much like that person...
As someone who is a similar height to you (5’7”) and hasn’t experienced height discrimination, I just wanted to thank you for laying out some clear and concrete steps that can be taken to discuss the issue without it devolving. While I’ve never personally experienced height discrimination (other than being teased in early high school about being short before I had my growth spurt) I can absolutely see how it is propagated by mainstream media in the ways you’ve outlined.
In going forward from here and trying to bring women into the discussion, how would you suggest that is managed? Most of the women I know and have met aren’t conscious height discriminators but there are some out there that very proudly discriminate by height and are unapologetic about it. How can we help shape the conversation so that it can be easily seen that height discrimination is yet another patriarchal construct that damages women just as much as men?
Really well written and thought out post and I'm finding the comment thread fascinating.
As an odd take on this, I wanted to throw in my perspective.
I'm AFAB Nonbinary and attracted to men. I'm fairly short and really dislike being short. For me, I sort of have a height max - I lose attraction to a guy who otherwise is exactly my type of they are more than a few inches taller than me. Basically, I prefer short guys (and shorter than me is great!).
In my case, it comes from a place of dysphoria and some other stuff. I really dislike feeling shorter or smaller than a partner. I want to feel "matched" with them (so within a similar range of height).
The flip side of this is confronting the fact that my lack of attraction for taller men is directly related to why many ciswomen might prefer taller men - they want to feel smaller and more feminine. Basically exactly what lots of other posters have said on this comment thread, but from the flip side. And I totally recognize that this is an issue. It shouldn't require a partner to be a specific shape or size for someone to feel right in their body, but since it works exactly like that for me, I'm having a hard time fully deconstructing what that means for others.
In my case, I'm comfortable with my preference being what it is, and hey I hope that whatever short dude I some day meet appreciates being preferred for being short I guess, but the fact that taller guys are fundamentally less attractive to me for these reasons is...something that I want to think more about in the broader social context.
'Shortchanged', from Tanya S Osensky, is an interesting piece if anybody wants some reading
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Lover of short men in general (and wife of one in particular) checking in and supporting!
Would somebody mind telling me what MRM means? Sorry, I’m new to the sub
Men's Rights Movement
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I am a 5’3 guy. I am gay and trans.
I... have literally no idea what you’re talking about regarding height discrimination?
I am 5'5 bi and trans and although I now have a tall (also bi and trans!) girlfriend I have often felt like people view short men as unattractive and felt really bad about it for ages. I also kinda felt infantilised and not taken seriously because of my height. I don't think height descrimination is the same as racism or sexism or anywhere near that severity. It's just an extra thing that shames people for how they are. I definitely noticed this type of attitude towards short men. It sucks to experience it, so if you haven't experienced it that's great :)
My girlfriend would generally not date people that are shorter than her, because she finds it less attractive (and she is a feminist). You can ask other hetero women if they feel the same.. I think society gives some women a feeling of security when they have a bigger partner. Being small is like being super slim in some ways.
It's cool that you don't see this in your context, but read bullet point one again.
I can only speak anecdotally but as a pan guy I've been turned down by men for being too tall. I'm only 6'2". Many start a conversation on gay apps with something along the lines of "stats?" Which basically reduces your existence down to a select set of numbers. If you don't fit, don't expect to even have a friendly meeting. This is race/height/weight/dick size/whatever bias.
I dated a girl who was 5'1". Sex was awkward except a minimal number of positions. This makes me less attracted to someone with that extreme of a difference in height. It is a bias I know I have.
It happens. Just because you experience it doesn't mean others don't. As a trans person you should understand this.
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I'm not a short guy, since I'm a woman, but I can tell you that there is just as many disadvantages at shorter height. I've flown maybe 10 or 15 times in my life. However, I can't reach my kitchen cabinets every damn day, and I have to sit practically on top of my steering wheel just to reach to pedals, and I'm not even that short (5'4"). So I don't think shorter guys care much about being more comfortable in a tight space.
I would definitely file this under "what not to do." See: the second bullet point.
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I'm sure being a short man isn't great but it's definitely not the same thing as being oppressed or discriminated against
Very odd people assuming this