Last 2 mythic bosses will drop 485, instead of 475. The highest you get from m+ weekly is 475.
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I'm surprised the debate is heated like that even though it affects what, 400 players the first month and 2000 players the first 3 months ?
Are you all currently timing +24s and suddenly afraid that 10ilvl will shatter your ability to be competitive in M+ next tier or something ?
Didn't you know? Everyone in
I'm actually fine with later bosses giving high ilvl loot. I just don't think that loot should work in M+. Or any raid loot.
M+ vs. Raid rewards aside, the last two bosses having different iLvls than the first 10 is a big problem if your spec's bis weapons/azerite drop off the first 10 instead of the last 2.
If anything having your weapons drop from earlier bosses is an advantage, because you have a better chance of getting them on progress when it matters. On farm when going for ranks you're competing with people who play the same spec anyway, so there's no issue there either.
If you're killing the last two Mythic bosses, I don't think you need more gear.
It is very concerning that more people (in compwow, no less) don't understand this. Given how the gearing works in this expansion/patch, this is an absolutely terrible idea.
They will either move all the weapons to the last 2 or move them all from the last 2. It won’t be split.
Or it's a good thing, you get to prog mythic with 475 gear instead of 470 gear (heroic +10)
I find the focus on post-mythic-clear balance a bit strange tbh
Not sure I am seeing the issue you would have been "screwed" either way and generally they never seemed to care much about farm balance.
I don't think it's a big deal. We're talking about a very minimal difference that will only be visible once progression is over.
So what you're saying is, boo hoo facerolling a 15 once a week won't give me loot equivalent to the two hardest bosses in the game. That sound about right?
That's exactly what they're saying. Luckily they have a bunch of goons agreeing with their pity party
So you are saying that spending a lot of time pushing 20+ keys wont reward me at all?
I think it's more about just let the last 2 bosses also drop 475 gear, not have M+ boxes drop 485.
I wish pushing a 24 or 25 did.
It is not right because you could reasonably play m+ without raiding. Now it is impossible because raiders will be 10ilvl higher which is a lot. I don’t really care about ilvl as I don’t want to raid. I just want items from mythic + which are at least as strong from mythic + as raiding gear or even stronger. Why not give bonuses to these items so it gives extra dmg while in dungeons.
Pretty much every M+ fan is saying how it is a bad thing, since raiders are going to have an unfair advantage in mythic+ (which will be true now).
However, players doing m+ used to (and still will) have an unfair advantage in raids over players doing only the raids - and that doesn't seem to be a problem for them. You are required to do a mythic plus, if you want to compete for a cutting edge. Shouldn't u be required to participate in raids, to compete in high end keys?
It feels like a double standard.
You are correct.
Mythic+ people keep saying that, "I dont care about ILVL, I just care about pushing keys." But I advocated a system about a week ago where Mythic+ gear would scale infinitely, but the power is only in mythic+ dungeons and I was downvoted into oblivion by those Mythic+ people.
You are required to spend 20-30min in M+ once a week to do raiding, You are required to raid 10hours a week to do M+ + all the prep involved. Any M+ players would agree to system where M+ had M+ specific loot but Blizzard is not going that away and everyone knows it. They just removed PvP specific loot expansion ago. Sitting through hundreds and hundreds of wipes so you could do something you enjoy is insane requirement.
Just give gear which is stronger in the content where it was aquired. Like benthic is stronger in nazjatar and in the raid because of bonus effect. Mechagon bracer should be regular bracer for raiders but would give nice boost in dungeons for fire mages.
I am baffled with the responses in this thread. It's like people literally hate each other for liking different content. I agree, higher keys (20+?) should give the same ilvl that the last two bosses drop, maybe in a weekly chest so it's not spammable. Best trinkets\azerite traits combos are enough incentive for m+ players to push raids, there is no need to add ilvl on top of that.
End of dungeon rewards won’t match mythic level rewards as long as there is no lockouts.
I think giving the last boss extra ilvl is good. It hasn't felt rewarding enough in previous tiers to kill the last boss imo as it didn't have very good loot.
It is also worth noting that some people just like the flavor of the last 2 bosses having the best loot. I agree they need to find a system that works for M+ and raids but I honestly like this. I don't think people who like this change are hating on people for liking different content to them
To use a sports analogy:
It is perfectly OK to enjoy big hits in football. You can watch the NFL specifically to see guys get smacked super hard in a tackle and cheer your head off.
Once you start advocating to change the win/loss policy from points scored to number of big hits, we have a problem.
WoW is a raiding game, and always has been. M+ was added to WoW so that raiders would have things to do in their spare time, and also to justify the dev cost of creating dungeons that were played a few times on launch week and never played again. Raiders shouldn't have to run M+ to compete in the raid, in a game about raiding.
From what I see on the PTR so far, I will be using 1 weapon, 1 trinket, and 1 azerite piece from the raid. Every other item I need will come from M+ or PVP. That isn't acceptable in a raiding game about raiding.
Idk I think this seems completely fair, it's harder to coordinate 20 people to defeat the final 2 bosses of an expansion on mythic difficulty than it is to run thru a 15 once/week. Even if they were to make it so 20 keys gave you the same ilvl as those 2 bosses pretty much any half competent group can get through a +20 (since it doesn't have to be on time anyway).
I always thought that those advocating gearing from M+ was only if you time the key.
Failing the timer is equivalent to not killing a boss.
You could just make it so you have to time the key in order to get those rewards. But fuck m+ ye?
This is great. The difficulty of killing the end bosses with 19 other dedicated people and maintaining a roster to get there should warrant not only 10 ilvl extra as a reward but 5ilvl extra for half the bosses of a mythic raid. I love mythic+ but the difficulty of gearing is honestly no match to what is required for mythic raiding end bosses.
This argument is so dumb. You raid for CE. Gear doesn't last. Why do you need gear levels as a rewards it's literally noise, a hindrance, a checklist in the way of actually playing. Why do we care which is harder, we just need both types of players to be able to max out their gear by doing their content...
LaSt tWo MyThIc BoSsEs dRoP 10 iLvL HiGhEr lOoT tHaN mY wEeKlY cAcHe, mY MoTiVaTiOn tO pLaY tHe GaMe iS gOnE
i DoN’t NeEd GeAr FrOm RaIdInG bEcAuSe I dO iT fOr PrEsTiGe AnD cHaLlAnge
I'll agree to m+ 15 dropping same ilvl loot as raids the moment they add weekly lockouts to dungeons.
The reality is it does take more time and effort to complete a mythic raid tier than a +15 consistently. Sure routing and special jobs takes time to develop, but they are completely irrelevant up to a +20 whereas mythic raiding preparation and gear checks are more prominent. If you wanna raise it to +20s dropping mythic ilvl gear I wouldn't be completely opposed. Sure it is spammable content but it is hard enough to lock it away from people calling +15s a high key and lets the people who actually spams +20s all day be properly rewarded for it.
As for the last two bosses dropping higher item level gear, I don't think it will be an issue. Sure azerite scaling is gonna be insane, but the reality is that the azerite from them would probably be your bis anyway if it has a good trait combo. My bis azerite helm on warrior is 435, meaning that good trait combination is worth more than 15 ilvl on head. This is obviously different for classes and azerite slots but ilvl is not gonna be a determining factor on any slot besides weapons, rings and possibly legs offering a higher stat budget or weapon DPS. It's not gonna be the difference of you doing damage or not doing damage though.
I think a huge part of the raiding community vs the mythic+ community have a bit of miscommunication. At least most people i've talked to are fine right now if the end-of-dungeon chest from mythic+ drops lower item level loot than mythic raid loot as dungeons are spammable and raids are on a weekly lockout. Most people, including me, want a chance at equal loot for pushing high keys to mythic raiders even if it comes in the form of your weekly mythic box, which would be the case in 8.3 until they decided to bump the ilvl of 2 bosses in nyalotha pushing raiding ahead again, with the main thing being higher item level azerite pieces as those award a significant amount of stamina which is important for pushing high keys (especially on tyrannical) and some weapons being on the loot-tables of those bosses which are the main source of DPS increase for pretty much all DPS classes.
My stance on it is that the weekly mythic+ box loot should be equal to mythic raid loot provided u push high enough keys (whether those are +15s or higher is debatable) but pushing very high keys should start giving you a chance to get more than 1 items from your weekly chest since as a mythic raider you can often get more than 1 piece of loot even if you just clear the freebie bosses and coin them every week. So your weekly chest should give 1 475 item if you clear a +15 every week and every boss in mythic nyalotha should also drop 475 loot, including the last 2 bosses.
Afterall, M+ players claim to do it for the fun and challenge. First dungeon each week gives you a 475 item, after that, no loot from M+. Weekly chest gives a 475 item if you did a 15.
You'd STILL gear up faster from M+ than raid if that were implemented. That's how insane WoW has gotten with a bad reward structure.
Thanks for sensible answer instead of telling me to fuck off.
I dont see why this is such a big deal to all you guys. We had the same thing in the last 2 expansions (look it up). Its a long raid and blizzard want to give the final boss(es) a better reward.
Yes it was similar, but if you played 9 hours per week doing m+ plus you had a chance to aquire similar items in m+ because of titanforging. As titanforging is no more, then you can’t anymore. I agree spamming 10s should not give max raid tier level items, but spamming 15s, should have a slight chance.
That caster sword better be turned into dagger real quick, what are shamans and druids supposed to use otherwise?
If you think that amount of gear or item level will have any effect in you or the other casual M+ players then you are delusional. This will effect .001% of hardcore M+ players/raiders.
These items are literally the only thing standing in between me and MDI.
Most mythic raiders will never see this 485 loot who cares. It's a great QoL thing for heroic raiding for the last couple bosses with ilvl forging gone.
It's the same argument with higher keys as-well though unfortunately.
Currently, both pvp and m+ have the ability to get near the highest base gear available.
Next tier that will not be the case for the top 1% of pvp/m+ players, only Raiders will get that +10ilvl item reward now.
M+ leaderboards will be won by raiders. Someone who play every single of his free time in m+ won’t be able to compete. How is it a good design?
Bring back Titanforging.
I think the bigger concern is what loot is dropped off these bosses not that raiders will have 10 ilvl on like 4 pieces months after the raid is released.
There should be tokens +10 ilvl increase weapons and azerite instead. And the same tokens in weekly chest for completeing +18 lvl keys for 2chest (not just in time) and 2 tokens for 3chest timing. That way mythic raiders and hardcore m+ pushers are both happy imo. In this system m+ should be capped at +18 difficulty i guess...
I dont see how that would make raiders happy, doing your weekly 10 is a chore for most people already. Having to farm 18s for gear would anger a lot of people.
Considering MDI is played on 17-18 levels that is a reasonable idea.
Yea, I don't know dude. I'm not really interested in raiding anymore. The raids this expansion have been pretty bad. If I come back to WoW for 8.3 it will be solely for mythic+ (have consistently hit well above 2k every season this expansion). But if it will be to put myself at a disadvantage because I don't want to raid I'm pretty sure I think I can keep the game uninstalled. Also, they seriously need to do something drastic about essences because my fuckign god that system is terrible.
Go do the last two bosses if you care that much about ilvl. M+ players shouldnt be as geared as MYTHIC raiders anyway? The skillgap is much different, compareable to a child and an adult.
lol you remind me of those edge-lord
As it stands now technically the more difficult content is mythic+ as it is infinitely scaling whereas mythic raids stay static. The higher the key you do the harder the content becomes. I'd say clearing tyrannical +20s is quite equal if not even slightly harder than most non-freebie mythic bosses depending on the dungeon as a lot of stuff starts shotting you.
that's fine with me
mythic loot is 475, the weekly chest gives 475 gear the final 2 bosses drop 485 gear
You get 475 ilvl for weekly chest for doing a m+15. But you will get 485 from the last mythic bosses.
I'm a bit miffed that cloth classes don't get an azerite headpiece until the third to last boss. I'll be rolling residuum tokens for quite a while.
It's also annoying that so far there's only a 1h int weapon from those two bosses and no offhand, so str and agi users will get full 485 weapons but casters are going to be stuck with a 485 mh 475 oh.
Pretty sure i read loot tables were not complete. This may be outdated info tho
The primary use for high gear after completing mythic raid would be either re-clearing mythic raid, Mythic+, or PVP.
Mythic+ only and PVP only players have no interest in raid.
By funneling higher output into Mythic raiders you are diminishing two large groups of the community to be inferior to the Mythic Raiders in their area of focus, I feel like that's a let down.