eastofrome

Serious question: How to de-legalize abortion and legal consequences of procuring/performing abortions?

Perhaps this should have waited until tomorrow or Monday, but the post about yesterday's declaration by the president stirred up this perennial question:

Comments
The only way to pass a law that represents reality is to get the state to declare someone a person from the moment of conception.
Right now most states define the personhood of unborn babies based on whether they are wanted or not. If the pregnancy is wanted that child is a person and it is a crime to kill her. If the pregnancy is unwanted, the child is not a person and therefore not murder to kill it.
That sets a very dangerous precedent where the personhood of people who are completely dependent on other people is subjectively decided upon by those caring for them.
Having said that, I don't see our nation making that kind of pronouncement anytime soon because it requires the conversion of hearts and minds, which is happening -- but slowly. Our best bet to stop the bleeding in the immediate future is by either a national ban or allowing states to decide.
Do you have a source for this? By source, I mean someplace where this is actually codified into the law
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but political polarization has done nothing to convert my heart or mind. Quite the opposite; it has only solidified and hardened my heart and mind against conservativism. I'm sure your's has only hardened against liberals as well.
So how do you propose winning over people like me who will never support any religion, much less one they left years ago?
I do not see this as especially complicated legally. The law currently permits murder of a certain class of people. Making that illegal would be straightforward. In terms of who to punish, the doctor is essentially in the same position as a hit man.
Other posters here are correct that we won't get such a law without changing more hearts and minds. That's true, but it's important to remember that what is legal influences hearts and minds to a great extent as well. The abolitionists changed a lot of hearts and minds but it's not as though slavery was unpopular when it was made illegal.
In addition, we cannot change many hearts and minds without also attacking the sexual revolution in general. Abortion is the safety net that enables consequence free hookups: many people known this in their hearts, and it is often the true reason for their commitment to abortion.
If a doctor is comparable to a hitman in your analogy, then the woman is the person who ordered and paid for the hit which is also considered murder or conspiracy to commit murder. Go check your local criminal code for definition of homicide. If abortion is a criminal offense then you must include both doctor and mother as participants in a criminal act under the vast majority of state criminal statutes.
No disrespect to your argument, because it's an important one to have. And in most cases regarding law, I would agree.
But after nearly 50 years of allowing more than 60 million innocents to be slaughtered in "clinics" across America alone, we cannot afford to wait and discuss it any longer. When lives as defenseless as unborn children are on the line, one more death is far too many.
Technicalities can be worked out later. For now, we have to focus all our efforts on reawakening the morality of America.
I think we have to temper our expectations somewhat, even in the best case scenario.
Ireland’s Eighth Amendment enshrined the equal right to life of fetus and mother, and yet there were still thousands of illicit abortions in Ireland, and many other thousands procured in the UK and on the continent. Law is important and a crucial aspect, but it isn’t everything.
I don’t think many people have really considered just how much technology has changed the equation here. Pill based abortions are safe, simple, and discreet. They are easily accessible online for a motivated individual (as they were in Ireland). Additionally, for many American women traveling to Canada, Mexico City, or elsewhere would be a relatively trivial barrier to access. Policing either effectively would be extremely difficult and unpopular (not to mention easily reversible by executive fiat).
Once again: I’m not suggesting that legal changes aren’t important, but we have to be clear-eyed about this. No amount of legal repercussions or maternal supports (however just and necessary) are going to “end abortion”.
Fundamentally, abortion is a symptom of a cultural rot that set in long before 1973.
Sin is as ancient as humanity.
The only sustainable plan is making sure people understand the gravity of their actions. Sure, criminalizing it will stop it in the short term, but long term people will retaliate and vote for people who follow their own ideals or go to some other country where they can get abortions. We need to make the adoption process easier and invest in programmes that educate people to make the better choice. The problem we face right now is that a lot of people don’t recognize the humanity of what’s growing inside them. Not that I agree with their position, but it’s hard for those who don’t believe in our ideals that a single fertilized cell is a human and needs to be preserved at all costs. Once we cross that barrier, the number of abortions will reduce drastically
There is and has always been a stepwise progression envisioned here.
Remember though, besides the ban we do need to change the culture. We can’t change all minds but we can change some.
Unfortunately it likely won’t end until the economics make it much less viable an option. So for example, say they finally invent an artificial womb and mass produce it enough that its affordable. This might undercut some of the pro-choice arguments enough that those proclaiming the immorality of it will achieve greater recognition and eventually victory.
You can see a similar thing historically. There are/were familiar arguments; fetus/slave isn’t a real person, I need to abort/enslave to achieve my own happiness and well being, it’s my own choice to abort/enslave and it doesn’t concern you, etc. There were moral opponents of the African slave trade but they didn’t achieve total victory until the economics changed enough to disincentivize it. In Britain, slave sugar was so mass produced that it undercut slaveholder market power, allowing antislavery advocates to out vote them. In the United States, a burgeoning industrial North made them increasingly conscious and wary of the threat that Southern slavery posed to free labor and free soil to the point the cultural divide became too large and the populations went to war.
My conclusion from all this is that the best way to end abortion is to recognize the perceived advantages in the mind of supporters and economically disincentivize them. If all people could be eventually persuaded by moral arguments then the Apostles would have already have converted everyone to Christianity millennia ago. It just doesn’t work that way, most of the time.
Yeah. Artificial wombs are probably the only practical way we can convince someone who doesn’t want to undergo pregnancy to not abort their baby. It’s not ideal, but at least better than killing them. We also need to reform the foster and adoption system. Someone who doesn’t want a baby shouldn’t be forced to look after that baby for years because of the bureaucracy in the current system. It’s not healthy for parent or child
This wouldn't work because people would still be having sex. Unless we sterilize all women or everyone goes on birth control (both of which are immoral in their own right), women would still be getting pregnant.
And if we could just move the babies from the pregnant woman to the artificial womb with no consequences to the mother, women would be doing it left and right and then we'd have hundreds of thousands of unwanted babies to care for as a society.
The only way for this to work is to keep people accountable for their actions. Having sex carries with it the possibility of becoming pregnant and that carries with it certain responsibilities. If you don't want the responsibilities, don't have sex.
Unless we can change hearts and minds on that and get people to start connecting sex with taking responsibility for the natural outcome of sex, we'd be flooded with parentless babies.
The proper way to prosecute would be case-by-case. For sure, some mothers who commit infanticide should be prosecuted as murder, but my gut instinct is to say most mothers who procure abortions are also victims.
Our society has told young women that the only two options are either to let your life go to ruin or to abort. I believe most mothers who are considering abortion haven't the capacity to properly think in their situation.
To validate this seemingly harsh comment, I would like to refer to my local pregnancy resource center. They offer coaching, having been professionally trained to help people slow down in order to think straight. The result of it is that out of over 2000 abortion minded mothers*, we lost a total of six children from our community over the past twelve years.
We're not telling them what to do, but rather helping them decide for themselves what they truly desired to do instead of a rash and hurried reaction to a stressful situation.
With that, the abortionists are not in that situation, and would be fully culpable of their heinous crime, but I struggle to know if the mothers would be.
*by abortion minded, I mean the mother would have otherwise been highly likely to procure one.
Going after doctors first and then their clients is most practical.
Home-abortions would be too much like miscarriages, and we can't investigate every miscarriage. Unless of course, for example, a woman was subjected to a forced home abortion; in which case, her testimony should be used to convict whoever performed the abortion on her and her child.
Nearly 7 in 10 Americans do not want the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade,
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/479334-poll-majorities-want-abortion-to-remain-legal-but-support-some-restrictions
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/01/22/most-americans-want-abortion-remain-legal-back-some-state-restrictions/
https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/poll-finding/abortion-knowledge-and-attitudes-kff-polling-and-policy-insights/
Thank God I live in a judicioligarchy like the USA. Doesn't matter what the people think. It's about the courts. In 21st c. America this is how major change happens. Which is why it's important to elect the right executive to appoint our judicial overlords.
I think that a more effective effort, regardless of differences in religion/philosophy/ethics, is to build a society that does all it can to support woman's healthcare. To begin, we should all understand the truth:
If we want to be effective, let's focus on doing what works.
Can you provide some stats for this? Because when I look at abortion rates in different countries, I don't see too much correlation between countries with universal health care and radically lower abortion rates.
Countries are all over the place with abortion rates and it seems to be related more to cultural norms than wealth and health care access.
And don't forget that Catholics are also anti-birth control, so we won't accept increased access to birth control as a good reason for lower abortion rates. We can't condone giving people more contraceptives in order to lower abortions.
Didn't Michelle Williams recently tout how important abortion was to her success. I also seem to recall Lena Dunham saying that she wished she has an opportunity to have an abortion. Granted these are extreme examples, but how far proponents to abortion will go in their support.
Slowly is really the only way to accomplish this. First we should make the pro life cause popular, civil right movements only started picking up steam once a large amount of people believed in them. Our first mission is to change minds. In the US allowing states to decide on their opinion would probable be the first change, currently every state allows some sort of abortion and by the time one state decides to fully llegalize it it will create an uproar in Congress. Ultimately though I think if enough of that state is prolife it could get away with it. After that more and more states would outlaw until the important question on abortion is ruthlessly challenged. The definition should be that life starts at conception and that life should be given all rights given to human beings. I also dont believe woman getting abortions should be punished as their often misinformed and almost as much of the victim as the baby, they've bean lied to and told they're killing a clump of cells. We should punish the liers who told these woman those lies. It won't be a pretty day when its fully banned. Itll be a happy day but far from pretty, the war will not be over after that. Their was major uproar after slavery was banned and their will be just as much when abortion will be banned. Expect society to be more split then ever after that day. Peoppe will still march for their right to abortion far after that day and I'm sure their will still be many abortions by exploiting laws or strait up ignoring them. But we will have won a major battle. A battle that will ultimately win to us winning the war.
I think that the nexus to interstate commerce is a bit harder to leap over that you are assuming. In every federal criminal case where a felon is charged with possession of a firearm, the government has to establish that the gun crossed either a state line or was imported from another country. Same with possession of ammo by a felon. Not seeing how a woman who got pregnant in California, then goes to a California doctor for the abortion is involving interstate commerce.
I mean, it's not happening, so it's probably a waste of time to think about, but what's so complicated about: criminalizing it, which would force all 'official' avenues, clinics, etc. to close down, then dealing with black market instances as and when they happen, with standard operating procedure for homicide cases?
The logical conclusion that I make from listening to most antiabortion people is that both the mother and doctor have committed murder and so should be sentenced as such. Moreover it is premeditated and so it should carry the death penalty in many jurisdictions. Now, I don’t believe this, but I am basing this on the comments I have heard from pro life people.
Moreover, based on the notion that life begins at conception, a mother who drinks during pregnancy should be charged with assault, and one who knowingly participates in an activity that can cause a miscarriage through trauma should be charged with manslaughter. Falling down and causing a miscarriage is then negligence causing death and should also be treated as such.
Not to fedpost but democracy he proven to be inefficient. Too many people get a voice when they shouldn’t. Uniformed voters are often worse than non voters.
The whole system needs to be overhauled.
True fren but I don't think anyone in the states is ready for any other system yet. We don't have any political movement advocating for anything else yet
What exactly could we replace it with that will not probably make it worse?