I. Strategy and Tactics
November, 1965...
“I think the thing that is new, [is] this pogo-type concept, where we leap into an area, start a fight, finish it up to the best of our ability, and then jump over and latch on to another chunk of the enemy and chew him up. You couldn’t get into this area on the ground, you just couldn’t make it, and you couldn’t resupply. You had to have helicopters to support what we’ve been doing.
The basic mission of any military force is to destroy the enemy or his will to fight, and it’s been our tradition since we were tied to the ground to translate that into terms of ground objectives. But that was never the real purpose; that just helps you achieve the end. Here we can free ourselves of those ground considerations and go more directly for the enemy wherever he may be.”
- Brigadier General Richard T. Knowles, USA, Assistant Division Commander, First Air Cavalry Division, interviewed by Morley Safer, CBS News, November 1965 in the Ia Drang Valley, South Vietnam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfBLUOSNryc
(Knowles’ remarks begin at 8:10)
Lieutenant General Knowles retired from the Army in 1974 and died in 2013.
The results are pretty plain to see, even if you're not interested in looking.
Cheers
1
The parallels between Afghanistan and Vietnam are unmistakable. An arrogant United States swaggered into an Asian country thinking that all they needed to do was to emulate us and life was going to be beautiful.
How will you tell the family of the last soldier killed in Afghanistan that they died for nothing?
1
18 years. A generation.
The mistake is not having gone in. It is the failure to recognize that a generational approach through an education storm could bring about fundamental changes.
It may be tough on those believing in unrestricted religious freedom: Al-Adnani, the former spokesman of ISIS said before he was killed in an American drone strike that the Islamic State (it is the same for the Taliban) could be defeated only if the Koran could be removed from Muslims’ hearts. Indeed, this is the only path to address the problems in the Middle East successfully: remove the Koran from Muslim minds, first and foremost their children.
18 years. What could we have achieved.
It is an open secret in all organized religions that indoctrination works best with children, in Islam, it is through free madrasas, which produce martyrs at the cost of bread crumbs.
An education storm by offering free, secular education, food, clothing, and, if need be, bunking, to children would fundamentally change the ball-game ... and offer tremendous job opportunities for American educators.
If America engages militarily in the Middle East, it needs to actively change the self-defeating Muslim anti-culture through a long-term 'Marshall-Plan' commitment that includes childrens' education as its spearhead.
A.J. Deus
Social Economics of Poverty and Religious Terrorism
2
Bring back the draft.
3
Let me ask a question of each person who reads this comment.
Would you put your life on the line and volunteer to go to Afghanistan?
If your answer is yes, you need to make an appointment with a therapist.
As a former U. S. Army officer, I readily recognize a "no win" operation.
The Russians learned their Afghanistan lessons the hard way, but they were smart enough to bail out after 7 years of losses versus our 15 years.
Could the potential value of Afghanistan's natural resources reserves have a bearing on the U.S. mission?
Is this another instance of "follow the money" as in our Middle East policy to protect international oil companies' assets?
1
Vietnam,Iraq, Afghanistan all for what?
2
As Rudyard Kipling wrote the country that has never been conquered by a foreign invader:
If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,
Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:
So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,
And wait for supports like a soldier.
Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!
2
Afghanistan. The Graveyard of Empires. If I had lost a child in this Bushwacker Junior Dick (Less) Cheney Donnie Rumsfeld started and not finished debacle, I would feel my child's life was thoughtlessly sacrificed. Every War we have fought and died in since WWII, has been a needless waste of Humanity. Do not volunteer for this or any Military. You can prove your worth and your manhood in many more productive ways.
2
Damned if you, damned if you don't, when Trump and Sanders are on basically the same page on cutting our losses and calling it a day, the end is near, for better or for worse.
We fought all these wars to make people like Cheney wealthier. Time to stop being stupid.
1
Of course it's unwindable. You can't change thousands of years of a culture overnight, and 18 years is overnight. Basic concepts of democracy and religious tolerance, not to say acceptance, just does not exist among the vast majority of Afghanistan's population. It's hard enough o keep democracy and tolerance going in our own country.
3
Context is needed. Since WW II, the American military has been used to fight wars of aggression, hegemony, imperialism, and resource theft against small foreign countries that never attacked us and never would have.
The premise of invading Afghanistan due to bin Laden was stupid from the beginning, since bin Laden and his boys were originally created and trained by the USA under Ronny Raygun, and were later part of Saudi radical Islam.
America is falling apart at home, but we arrogantly think we should spend billions of dollars to create death and suffering worldwide in an attempt to "win" wars against people in their own countries.
We learned nothing from the Vietnam debacle, apparently!
"War, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing."
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'Mark Hannah (@ProfessorHannah) is a senior fellow at the Eurasia Group Foundation (@EGFound), where he explores the possibilities of a less militarized American foreign policy.'
Let me guess: he never finds it.
1
Like Peter Drucker said, culture eats strategy for breakfast. This war was never about Islamic theocracy vs. liberal democracy. The majority of Afghans have long been medievally minded Moslems with little interest in our politics, and that will only change slowly. This is an interethnic conflict between the dominant Pashtuns, represented by the Taliban, and the Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks and others fighting over what little spoils there are in the country. Negotiations should address that and not the designs of great powers.
1
Hmmm... As I recall, on 9/11 we were attacked by people under the protection of the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan. That many Americans believe we should stop fighting and just leave Afghanistan to the Taliban, people who were and are our enemy and a continuing threat to the US is astounding. We might as well send an email to the Taliban and the rest of our enemies saying “Attack us with impunity.”
Actually, Dan, it went like this:
US to Taliban: Hand over bin Laden.
Taliban to US: Okay. We have no problem w that. But first -- could you present your evidence?
US to Taliban: Never mind. We'll just bomb you instead.
That was quite a long time ago, Dan. Time to wake up??
1
Yes, it is time to wrap up this mission creep. We went to find Osama, and paid Pakistan Billions of dollars so they can hide him? But that was 2011, what have we done after that?
It is sickening to see the Foreign Services elite in DC advocating foreign aid to all these countries and pushing us and keeping us in the endless wars. It has become an industry. The globalists, the hawks, the big contractors, the recruitment of college kids from small towns under the banner of patriotism and honor, the phony - 'we support our troops' propaganda.
I was appalled at the reaction of the Washington elite when Trump announced withdrawal from Syria. How dare he? What about consulting the state bureaucrats, the intelligence, the congress? What a crime.
The wars have near bankrupted us - financially. Exhausted us emotionally. All you hear in the DC swamp is whistles and chanting to unseat a President. Time to wake up!!
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@JustWatching Hear, hear.
While our treasonous elites have been wasting trillions of dollars "nation building" in the Middle East, they forgot they still had "nation maintenance" to do back home. Instead of worrying about why Afghanistan or Iraq isn't turning into another US, they should be worried about why the US is becoming more like Afghanistan or Iraq...
1
Simply stated: You cannot give or force democracy on a country, the people of the country have to take it. One problem with trying to export western democracy is western democratic societies rest on an underlying foundation of belief in western values. Today these western values include placing a high value on human life, equal rights for women, and so forth along with a separation between religion and government. That’s not to say religion cannot or does not influence government but it is a more malleable relationship that what is found in most predominantly Muslim nations.
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The spreading of democracy hasn't been a legitimate reason for U.S. wars in decades. Greed has.
1
If only more Americans would learn history. It was clear from the beginning to anyone who had experienced or read about the American experience in Vietnam that our war in Afghanistan and the Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz war in Iraq would be catastrophic failures. Johnson, Nixon, et al knew the Vietnam war was unwinnable, but didn't want to be the first American president to 'lose' a war. What has changed? Nothing.
My sister is a measured, polite person, but she still almost foams at the mouth with hatred of GW for the death and misery he and his cronies - and let's not forget Congress and their votes of approval! - have visited on the middle east.
1
I am a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel. I heartily endorse my fellow veterans' call to get out of Afghanistan and to do so immediately.
1
Ask ourselves this: what does winning in Afghanistan mean? If it means a democratically run country with all people having equal rights including women, then we are living a dreaming. That will never happen in a short period of time. Those comparing Afghanistan to Japan and Germany have no clue that both those nations were modern "democracies" or sorts before WW2 and could easily mold into one, as they did. Afghanistan never was and if the past 60 years has shown (3 generations) then it has a bleak chance of becoming one. We cannot stop this madness, we can only take our foot out of it (just like we did in Vietnam) and hope for the best (Vietnam and the rest did pretty well without us).
1
To my knowledge no one has ever won a war in Afghanistan. In the 19th century the British Empire failed, the last one we fought was in 1919 when technically Afghanistan gained full independence. The Soviet Union failed in their war in the 1980s. Part of the problem lies in the fact that the country is divided into tribal factions. The tragedy is that the country had a long tradition of peace during it's years as a Kingdom until 1973 when the Shah of Afghanistan was overthrown.
2
I think the real reason we're in Afghanistan is cause of China and Pakistan. To further surround them and add more pressure. Also it puts American forces near Pakistan, which has nukes, close ties to terrorists, and complicated relationship with US. A way of telling Pakistan hey we're right here. Look at the map and it's located near China, Pakistan, and Iran. Also gives presence near Hormuz and China's Belt Road Initiative.
Not saying war is right but that's probably reasons military uses to justify
@df ...
Go one step further...
It PUTS our forces IN Pakistan, a factor that the Pakistanis are not likely to forget in the near future.
1
The problem starts with framing use of military power as a question about "winning". Use of military power serves mainly three purposes; 1)Eliminating the fighting power of a certain opponent (which was done successfully both for AQ and the current host regime). 2) Deny the enemy the use of a specific geographic area (which was done successfully, no AQ safe haven in Afg) 3) Hold an area as a resource for own operations (like having a military capacity close to the Pak nukes).
The question is whether you achieved the goals of the military operation, not winning.
Objectives of cathogory 2 and 3 is something you do for as long as it is useful. Then you ex-filtrate. You do it on a cost benefit analysis. It did make sense yesterday but not any more. No winning or loosing.
The next problem is the rhetoric dressing used at home to sell the use of brute force to own voters. Afg as a democratic state observing human rights.
I just cannot imagine any well informed person actually having such goals. My guess is that for the last few years military presence have been politically motivated by the need of holding the territory while preparing for the political ex-filtration from the ideas they hawked about Afg.
1
@GSo ...
Your thinking, sir, neglects that role of the military in the POLITICAL functions of the nations in which our forces are stationed.
If you read up on military strategy, you will find that route at the base of any rational look at the benefits of having a military.
Wars like these have not been about Democracy.
1
How many Jimmy Carters are there in the world? Not nearly enough. We are a war loving society and the architects of our own destruction. We call our soldiers heroes and use them up, starting wars that never end with no possibility of ever winning, even as mission accomplished is declared.This horrific violence is a sport which is recreated for our entertainment. And then we take our guns, grown ups and children, and shoot each other. Is it any wonder?
1
@kirk ...
We certainly couldn't afford more presidents, sir, that allowed the interest rates, and inflation, in the United States to reach double digits.
Having lived through his stagflation, I can assure you that many more people were harmed than there were that benefited as a result of his policies...
And then there was Jimmie Carter with his thumb up his nose when the Iranian extremists attacked the US embassy and held our diplomats, allegedly safe from detention under international law, for more than a year in squalid conditions.
Does anyone believe that Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld have survivors guilt? I don’t. Millions of lives, trillions of dollars, for what? Who got rich?
2
@Loren Johnson...
Is there anyone in the CIA that feels guilty for feeding their political leaders a bunch of totally inaccurate information?
If you believe that the CIA was even partially at fault in that action, why are you willing to believe a CIA operative whose basis for complaint is that Donald Trump, as President of the United States, is not following "interagency consensus" as to what our foreign policy must be?
Clearly, someone doesn't understand the implications of Article II of the US Constitution.
Since when do we invade other countries to spread democracy? During my lifetime we invaded Vietnam to prevent the very popular Ho Chi Minh from winning the election, overthrew the popularly elected Mohammad Mossadegh in Iran and installed the corrupt and tyrannical shah, overthrew the popularly elected Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala at the behest of the United Fruit Company, etc., etc.
Right now we have problems at home of voter suppression, gerrymandering, untraceable ballots in easily-hacked voting machines, and billionaires buying Congress. Perhaps it would be better if we put our energies into overthrowing the plutocracy and establishing a real democracy in the U.S.
5
Sometimes a large part of the population of a nation just gets its head into a very messed up place as a subculture and it deprives everyone else of democracy and other nice things and there's just nothing you can do about it. It's just a deplorable shame.
1
"They" didn't listen during Viet Nam, but they better heed these soldiers views these days
2
I have never fathomed why America went into Afghanistan. Historically, no one in the past has succeeded "but maybe this time it is different" just doesn't work unless the Afghan country itself changes. To change the country requires a huge investment over generations, with those generations willing to risk believing the Americans would continue to provide security. But wait... the Kurds were abandoned multiple times, the marsh Arabs were abandoned, the Montagnards were abandoned, even people assisting the Americans for years in the mid-East are seemingly wantonly abandoned. Would you be willing to risk yourself and your family to fickle American politicians? While Americans may not have staying power to see things through, it is the politicians who have embarked on these foreign adventures in the name of American citizens. Sometimes the intentions are good, but usually it seems to be solely empire building feature creep straight towards a bottomless morass. Here we go again, another morally repugnant exit strategy leaving wreckage and death behind.
1
If you want to hurt Russia, then let them have one more chance in Afghanistan. It’s not a very resource rich country and there is zero chance of turning it into a liberal democracy. The trajectory of the Middle East is that oil will loose its importance, because of climate change , and therefore the Middle East will be forgotten. Save those money, invest them in a transition to sustainable energy solutions, or other investments that will please you more
1
“Five American military veterans on why they see the war in Afghanistan as an unwinnable conflict.”
We have known this for many years empirically. The Afghan war is an exercise in armed forces alertness; training; tactics; and management. It does not have anything to do with winning anything in Afghanistan except combat experience.
2
Eighteen years. Nothing more need be said when discussing should we stay or leave Afghanistan. Eighteen years speaks for itself. The US needs to depart in an orderly manner.
2
The only box that democracy should ever come in is a ballot box. However, it's the most important box for democracy.
That said, Afghanistan will, like it has for so many other nations over the centuries, be something American can't "solve" -- it always was.
2
Though Afghanistan is described as a single country, it is, in fact, an area dominated by competing tribes each with their own agenda and local issues. It is not a unified nation with a common national identity adhered to and respect by all.
It is ethnically and geographically diverse. Territory is neither easy to traverse nor simple to hold (in a military sense).
Its people will not be easily converted to a western style democracy (if they ever are), and it's not clear what the overall strategic political value is to the United States or the West generally. Even if there is great potential strategic value to the major powers, in particular the United States, the price to be paid for attempting to stabilize Afghanistan may simply be distinctly greater than any actual or strategic value it may possess.
In any case, it doesn't appear as though we have the ability to bring the Afghans to a place from which they would regard their national identity as taking precedence over local, ethnic, and varying religious identities, and act accordingly.
The American military presence in Afghanistan is not (and, in my view, cannot be) a sufficient unifying force for this region.
And the implicit assumption that a unified Afghanistan would be friendly to the US or beneficial to American interests may simply be wrong.
7
If the pentagon had to pick the dumbest place in a world
to get involved in a war Afghanistan would be a clear winner.
Stupid ideas usually do not get better with time.
4
Notes Viet Nam War Protestors Memorial
I would like to initially fund a war memorial to all those Vietnam protesters and Veterans who risked careers, jail and in some cases their life protesting the Vietnam war and got us out of there before the politicians killed another 60,000 of us. If you have ideas or would like to help just search on my name.
USMC/USN Vietnam 1966-70
5
This is exactly what Bin Laden, us mired in a global slog with no end. He won, and we could have seen this clearly if our hate had not been so strong.
2
Anyone with a sense of history has long known that ‘Democracy Does Not Come In A Box.” As those on the ground and fought Napoleon’s battles learned, “You can not bring democracy at the point of a bayonet.”
3
I was appalled when I realized we had not simply mounted a punitive expedition and withdrawn leaving behind best wishes, some cash and a reminder we could always return -- a time proven strategy that the Brits adopted after the Second Afghan war (1878-80) and largely maintained until 1948.
The Afghans are so riven with clan and tribal rivalries that they cannot resist an attack. But once the invader attempts to stay, they all realize that as despicable the neighbors are, the foreigner is totally hateful and all unite to attack him .
We had just spent 10 years helping the Afghans demonstrate that fact to the Russians.
It was totally, perplexing how we thought we would do better.
4
We had to respond to 9/11, but as many veterans have commented here that objective was accomplished when Osama bin Laden was killed. President Obama inherited a terrible quagmire from the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld triumvirate that believed in a philosophy of military expansionism (and even torture) as a leading component of foreign policy engagement. They funded this policy through the back door, hiding the real costs of war with deficit accumulation. Trillions of dollars and over 18 years later more veterans are speaking out about the folly of military expansionism and never ending wars. Afghanistan isn't called the "graveyard of nations" for nothing. The United States has made a lot of mistakes in the Mideast: a complicated region that has been riddled with religious and tribal conflicts, despots, and "blood for oil" battles for most of my life. One thing this report makes very clear is how vital an experienced and knowledgeable Foreign Service core is to the U.S., most intelligent military leaders understand diplomacy is critical to international policy. Bush/Cheney forgot that and Trump has decimated our diplomatic core. Funding for war ought to be done upfront so Americans always understand the real costs and leaders are held responsible for their decisions to deploy troops. It's time to withdraw but we must do so thoughtfully, not through a tweet. Time for U.S. military expansionism as international policy to end.
4
I think in deciding whether the war in Afghanistan is winnable or not it's important to define what we mean by winning?
If winning means turning Afghanistan into a self-functioning western style Democracy then yes I agree this war is not winnable. But if winning means never allowing Afghanistan to be used as a base of operations for terrorists to launch attacks against the US then I would say we already are winning. I don't think anybody in America wants us to still be in Afghanistan but we have to ask ourselves what will happen if we leave?
@rs
So the only way to prevent another war is to stay in perpetual war?
What we should be asking is how many future terrorists are we creating while ensuring that Afghanistan never again creates terrorists?
1
@Livonian
How many do we create by leaving the Taliban in place? As I recall, the Taliban provided support to those who flew jets into buildings in the US. Signaling that we will simply let it go will further embolden people on the fence.
Strong alliances, clear missions, coherent policies, seasoned diplomats, aggressive diplomacy, politicians that understand history and culture of other nations, recruitment of the best and brightest who are multilingual, well trained mobil military, and presidential leadership that unites the country......that’s what prevents protracted wars and wins the peace. Sorry to say that the question of whether or not to keep a few thousand men in Afghanistan seems like a distraction in the context of so many current deficiencies incurred by Trump. There is one horrendous deficit, though, that has been true well prior to Trump. Presidential cabinets need to have an historian and the president needs to have a counselor at their side at all times. Presidents, for example, that have father issues should be forewarned against acting them out.
1
Nothing can be so eloquent as what these veterans have expressed. But it is a message which has been stated for years by those not in power. The people who have governed and are governing the USA are stuck in cowardly inaction. As long as someone else, someone's family member, some Afghan child has to die, it's OK for continuing the war. Didn't Viet Nam teach us anything? How can these blinders be pulled over the heads of Americans? The Taliban is not Al-Qaeda. Protecting the homeland was always a sorry excuse for US domination elsewhere. How ridiculous.
1
@fordred
Well sure. And Hirohito was not Hitler. The Taliban government provided material support to those who flew airplanes full of people into buildings full of people. That the Taliban did not fly the planes themselves is no more relevant than that the Germans did not attack Pearl Harbor. There might be nuance, but the obvious facts are compelling.
The first rule if we go to war is that most politicians & their children are the first to go ... as infantry on the front lines. Should be very few exceptions.
And they should be joined by many of the CEOs of the giant corporations that make the arms & missiles.
And more broadly everyone must be subject to a draft, and no exemptions. Those with bone spurs can at least peel potatoes just behind the front lines, or do something meaningful somewhere.
I know from 7 decades on the planet we'd have very few wars if the above were followed.
Yes, someone like Hitler might come along, amass power & weapons and start a conflict that truly threatens enslavement and destruction of nearly everyone, and a war may truly be necessary. But most aren't.
And as one of those interviewed said, and history has proven in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and countless other wars...the US cannot solve civil wars -- (especially those rooted in embedded religious dogma) -- where the people that comprise the nation at war have to somehow come up with their own internal solution.
Let's elect some new leaders focused on solving our own endless internal problems, on providing health care & education at low cost to all, rebuilding our infrastructure, supporting the average citizen in as many ways as possible, etc...and helping those in other nations in sensible ways to the degree we reasonably can.
And unless our security is truly threatened in a huge, self evident way, forget war.
3
@dre
3000 people killed. By terrorists. Receiving material support from a terrorist organization. That continues to launch terrorist attacks against other Afghanis and against US soldiers. You seem willing to just let that go. No wonder bad people think they can attack the US with impunity.
All Quiet on the Western Front, but Johnny Got His Gun, because he was Born on the 4th of July. The Grand Illusion.
1
It’ll be really great when young men and women no longer have to hear the insipid “thank you for your service.”
2
Trillions dumped into useless wars promoted by the neocons.
3
@JDK
I’m not a neocon, and I do not understand how leaving and handing the keys to the Taliban is a good idea.
We need to honestly evaluate our taste for watching ruthless warlords slaughtering tens of thousands of their fellow countrymen. My experience [ex-military here] is that folks love to send other people's kids into harm's way to satisfy their desire for some magical social revolution in the country.
While I think Trump is a buffoon and draft-dodging coward - look at the reaction when he described a variety of these types of countries around the world.
Look at the chattering class reaction when he withdrew from Syria.
We often speak out of both sides of our mouths.
1
@SteveRR
Honestly, I don’t believe we can turn a bunch of primitive tribal actors into a coherent and civilized society. But by leaving the Taliban in place, I know we are empowering and encouraging others to attack us.
1
We committed liberals have been trying to make this point since Bush, abetted by his gang of crooks, liars, and legalized gangsters, began the invasion.
We can't shoot our way out of this stuff, unless we flatten a country, and toxify it for many generations to come.
We were derided as cowards, liberals, lefties, or softies. It was never about that. It was always about doing the right thing, or at least the smart thing.
Don't forget the war drums that were amplified in the New York Times. Remember Judith Miller?
Can we all remember this, the next time we're asked to sacrifice our country's lives and treasure?
1
Liberals might have cried out against intervention in Iraq but Afghanistan was widely supported. Your story doesn't hold water. We had 8 years of warfare there under Obama.
@Jack Lemay
This liberal was opposed to invading Iraq, and in favor of military action to destroy the Taliban, or at least to diminish their capability to support attacks on the US. “Liberal” cannot equal “doormat.”
If I have it wrong, tell me how you would have the US respond to 9/11. Please avoid telling me how we should have done things differently for the last 150 years; we were attacked on 9/11.
My brief amateur research on Afghanistan revealed that historically, the Hindu Kush has been where foreign soldiers go to die, thereby revealing the ignorance and arrogance of the incompetent big shots who cut their orders.
1
Peace Now!
2
"The Great Game: The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia" by Peter Hopkirk is a must read all who wish to understand the historical foundation why attempting to impose Democracy in the region is a zero-sum game.
https://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/02/opinion/editorial-notebook-the-great-game-again.html
1
Once again, history shows us unpatriotic, tree-hugging, East Coast elite, latte-sipping liberals to have been right all along.
2
@Carrie
Unfortunately, you vote for leaders who are just as blood thirsty and hawkish as the ones any red state middle American votes for. Don't fool yourself. By her own eager admission, Hillary would have us hip deep in the Syrian quagmire today, fighting alongside the "moderates" and extending the agony of that poor country. So you can stop the self-congratulations.
1
It’s all about making weapons! $Trillions in the pockets of the MIC! Everything else is a distraction! Everything! Patriotism, politics, flag waving, oil...cheap, hysterical advertisements.
MIC MIC MIC MIC MIC MIC is the problem!
2
Dwight D. Eisenhower, in his farewell address, warned us of allowing the Military Industrial Complex to control our political and economic life. The mixing of fortune and war is as old as mankind and we ignore that threat at the peril of our democracy and our lives.
We have no business engaging in war without a formal declaration. If our elected leaders in congress do not have the courage of their convictions, no military action should survive the emergency stage to become a decades old war.
Bring back the draft. I volunteered for the Army in 1962 and served through 1965 and served with a broad cross section of America who were draftees. Ending the draft served a politically expedient purpose but it eliminated a valuable spreading of knowledge about the realities of service throughout the population. Nothing sharpens your mind when faced with the possibility of armed conflict like knowing you and yours might be called upon to participate.
3
Wars are worth fighting if there are compelling reasons to sacrifice for. Japan and Nazi Germany totally surrendered and there was no continuous insurgency because we insisted on total victory. Now these countries are world leaders in democracy and progress, no doubt at all. Vietnam and wars like Afghanistan and Iraq and most recently our presence with the Kurds were half baked from the beginning with vague "nation building" attitudes. We were going to kick some butt then set something up, then leave. So our will to totally defeat the resistance, stay indefinitely and totally transform the culture is not there. So they revert back to something that they wanted in the first place. So now what are you going to tell the parents of all the dead soldiers and dead civilians as we just pack up and leave.
So plans for future ground occupying wars need to withstand these questions before we start: Is the reason compelling beyond any doubt to like 99% of people surveyed? Are you willing to totally defeat every ounce of resistance? Are you willing to stay in that country for 70 years to maintain what you died for?
2
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”
Persian Conquests
Greek Conquest and Kushan Invasions
Conquest by Arab Caliphate
Mongol Empire
Conquest by Tamerlane (Timur) and Mughal Empire
The Sikh Empire invasion, 1837-1838
British invasions: 1838-1842, 1878-1880 and 1919
Soviet invasions: 1929, 1930 and 1979
Invasion by the United States and NATO, October 2001
2
I'm not sure why messages like this have taken so long. It won't stand a chance of countering the stay forever gospel of Lindsey Graham, Bill Kristol, Max Boot, and Thomas Friedman, but it's important to try. Also, sounds similar to things Gabbard has been saying. A while back the NYT printed one of the worst articles I've ever seen in the paper, that (paraphrased) "Just what is Tulsi Gabbard up to?" piece. I hope you don't do the same thing to these veterans.
One of the reasons it is so hard for our "leaders" to do the obviously right thing and get out of Afghanistan - or other useless wars - is our own partisanship. When the "other" party's guy wants to get out, it's "cutting and running," or "abandoning our allies."
We also seem terrified that by withdrawing from these forever wars we will cede influence in the region, and powers we don't like will fill the void. Well, of course. We can't have it both ways.
Or, we worry about the short term chaos of leaving, as if there will ever be perfect conditions for leaving. If we wait for that, we'll never leave.
I wonder, really, if Americans, right and left, who claim to want to stop being the world's policeman are really ready to accept the consequences. We seem to want to have it both ways.
3
In the Ken Burns Vietnam War documentary, there is this telling quote from President John F. Kennedy: “We don’t have a prayer of staying in Vietnam. Those people hate us. They are going to throw our asses out of there at some point. But I can’t give up that territory to the communists and get the American people to reelect me.”
Kennedy knew the Republicans would attack him for being soft on the Soviet Union unless he sent U.S. soldiers to Vietnam. The party out of power will always accuse the party in power of being “soft” on the perceived threat.
The Vietnam War was not a war between communism and democracy; it was a war between Democrats and Republicans. The original mission in Afghanistan was to capture Osama vin Ladin and al Qaeda leaders who planned the 9-11 Terror Attacks, but it has morphed into a war between our political parties
Do I believe U.S. politicians are so cynical they would sacrifice the lives of American soldiers just to enhance their chances of winning an election? As a Vietnam combat vet, that’s exactly what I think.
3
@William Case
True...also, a central piece of JFK's 1960 campaign was attacking Nixon and the GOP because of "weakness" which had resulted in a (fictitious) "missile gap" with the Soviets.
2
It's not clear what a victory in Afghanistan would look like. But in terms of a diversity of thought and opinion. there's no veteran of Afghanistan who thinks it's other than "unwinnable"?
If we're going to leave then just do so. That'll get the pain of that move, mainly felt by the people of Afghanistan, out of the way sooner.
Next time Trump mentions leaving, all should rise up and say YES. There's no "more well thought out plan" that will not give the same evevtual outcome. Unless you want to commit to stay there indefinitely. In that case I can't wait to see the OP-ED writers encouraging their children and gradchildren to join the military and fight for their worthwhile cause. They can then have their opinions published on the OP-ED pages. No?
2
It's amazing how we didn't learn the lessons of Vietnam and have pretty much repeated that war with the ones in Afghanistan and Iraq. We were so eager to do something after 9/11 we bought into the Bush Administration's distorted lies and went charging into both countries and now find ourselves wondering what to do now, 16 to 19 years later with no real end is sight. If you don't learn the lessons of the past you're bound to repeat them in the future and Americans have perfected this to a T.
1
I served in Afghanistan.
No one says it out loud: a 3 billion dollar copper seam; lithium, uranium, rare earth... deposits estimated to exceed 1 trillion dollars... A thin "back door" into the underbelly of China, easy access to nuclear India and Pakistan....
THESE are the reasons we stay.
It's not Al Qaeda, it's not women's rights, it's not our "love for democracy"
As we have done for countless years in countless conflicts, we are willing to squander the patriotism of our best and brightest to line the pockets of the powerful and privileged.
3
democracy SHOULDNT BE FOR-SALE or only available to a select few either ! ..
1
We have been sending honorable soldiers to dishonorable wars since 1945.
Our young men and women know. They pay the price with the lifelong ravages of PTS and suicide.
2
That country has a staggering income and wealth inequity, its constitution has delivered that to the people who beat their chest about it.
It is controlled by a group of liars who would swear an oath while they are taking bribes and favors to change policies and appoint cronies to important jobs. Anyone who disagrees with them is pilloried, and if they claim that there is really no democracy, they are socially and politically burnt.
That country is Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, or the US? It is quite hard to tell.
Its constitution has gotten it to where it is, with rabid inequality based on wealth and class who are taking more control of the government. Very few of its citizens, especially those in the political circles dare to question that constitution which obviously is the source of the problem.
I do not believe that the opinions of our veterans should carry greater weight in the public discussion than those of nonveterans, beyond, of course, the insights their experience may provide.
@kevin
You say "I do not believe that the opinions of our veterans should carry greater weight in the public discussion than those of nonveterans, beyond, of course, the insights their experience may provide."
Experience is by it's very nature anecdotal. There are no scientific studies that will inform us of the nature of war, especially about the nature of a particular war fought in a particular place. When people have put their life and limb at risk in a place and experienced the realities on the ground, do their opinions have more authenticity than people with no experience? Of course. When they tell you again and again that there is no observable path to winning does this have more weight than the opinion of one who has no direct knowledge? Yes.
The testimony of witnesses has a value that surpasses the opinions of armchair pundits.
This is one case where our leaders should respect what the Russians did. They finally realized that invading Afghanistan is hopeless and they pulled out. Like the Vietnamese, these people will never yield to an imperialistic invasion by a foreign, culturally and religiously alien, power. There are ways, through diplomacy and very cautious assistance, to influence them, but not through brutal force. End this!
If you want to win a war, win it.
That's what total war is about.
As long as the US continues to conduct "limited wars", we'll have never-ending wars. After all, the enemy IS fighting a total war.
There's a reason why Lincoln fired McClellan as the Union Army's Commanding General ultimately with Grant. Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman had the right attitude.
I almost want to say that Lincoln and Grant would be ashamed of today's leaders.
I know I am coming across as a hawk, but I am not. War is something to be avoided. But, as long as we continue to be polite about, we will get new enemies who are happy to challenge our resolve. So, one of the critical aspects of war is to win it - and in clear and convincing fashion - to prevent potential future enemies from going to war against us.
WW II (total war for America): 4 years
Afghan War (limited war for America): 18 years and counting.
Flag-waving and patriotic songs don't win wars.
Wiping-out enemies does.
1
@VJR
Please describe what winning a "total war" in Afghanistan would look like? Would there be any people left? If so, they would hate us even more than they do now.
Would we make Afghanistan a US territory?
Seriously? What are we talking about here?
George W. Bush used the lie that weapons of mass destruction were hid by Saddam Hussein and the misperception that the Taliban were in Iraq to justify an invasion of Iraq. While he was doing this, Al Quada sheltered Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan with the aid some tribal people and then helped Osama escape over the Afghan mountains into Pakistan, our ally on paper where some Pakistanis, most likely from the Pakistan army or its intelligence branch hid him.
1
At this point in our history, I don't this the USA has anything to brag about. THIS is democracy? We have an amoral gangster as president and millions who support his every lie. we have a Congress that is a lapdog to this "president." We have Republicans determined to eliminate health care for millions. It goes on and on. Yes, this is better than the ultimate misogyny of Afghanistan but I think we aren't in a position to be proud.
The US emerged from WWII as the world's leading military and economic power. Since that time, US hegemony has relied on: 1) unrivaled military power, 2) control of world's energy reserves, primarily in the ME, and 3) maintaining the dollar as the world's reserve currency. All of the pillars supporting US power are now threatened by decades of neoliberal economic policies and spending large sums of taxpayer money on the Pentagon and war. Afghanistan occupies a strategic location in SW Asia, bordered by Pakistan, Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and China. The US war on Afghanistan is the longest running war in US history. As pointed out by Alfred McCoy (History Professor, UW Madison) despite committing over 100K of America's finest troops and spending over $ 1 trillion of taxpayer money, opium production is booming and the Taliban control over 50% of Afghan territory. Regardless of the fact that the war on Afghanistan has been an economic/strategic debacle, the directors of US foreign policy have no intention of pulling US troops out, as doing so is an admission of failure, further undermining US global prestige and power.
For backgound see- Washington's Twenty-First-Century Opium Wars by Alfred McCoy Feb. 21, 2016; Link: www.tomdispatch.com/blog/176106/tomgram%3A_alfred_mccoy,_washington%27s_twenty-first-century_opium_wars/
You don't create liberty and democracy at the barrel of gun.
You don't fix inequality by stealing for a group you despise to spend on your own needs.
You don't use government to help the private interest, just the public one. If they are sending you a dollar, you are part of the corruption of liberty and equal protection, in which politicians buy your vote.
Please give Bush and Rumsfeld more time...Rice too.
re: they see the war in Afghanistan as an unwinnable conflict.
That was clear 12 years ago, to those who know Afghan culture. The British, learned it the hard way and warned the Americans.
"The insulting Americans"
There are infinite ways to slight a Pushtun's nang, but most involve zar, zan or zamin: gold, women or land. The search tactics of American troops in Afghanistan, five years after they invaded the country, tend to offend on all counts. By forcing entry into the mud-fortress home of a Pushtun, with its lofty buttresses and loopholes, they dishonour his property. By stomping through its female quarters, they dishonour his women. Worse, the search may end with the householder handcuffed and dragged off before his neighbours: his person disgraced."
His honour besmirched—and here's the problem for the Americans—a Pushtun is obliged to have his revenge, or badal"
Unfortunately, Americans have and had no understanding what so ever of the concept of honour in Afghanistan.
You can't win a war by trampling on it. The British learned it, after their retreat from Kabul, the Russians learned after their retreat from Kabul, but the American need yet to learn it
https://www.economist.com/special-report/2006/12/19/honour-among-them
https://thediplomat.com/2017/06/why-is-afghanistan-the-graveyard-of-empires/
'Afghanistan is a notoriously difficult country to govern. Empire after empire, nation after nation have failed to pacify what is today the modern territory of Afghanistan, giving the region the nickname “Graveyard of Empires, ” even if sometimes those empires won some initial battles and made inroads into the region.'
In 326 BC, Alexander the Great, conquered Afghanistan but could not push on to India proper because his troops refused to fight on!
1
Afghanistan earned to title "graveyard of empires" for a reason. We seem to have ignored the lessons of the other empires since Alexander who've been dashed against the rocks of the Hindu Kush. We now approach it with the same kind of blind persistence that got thousands of my peers killed in Vietnam. Many of us who were in that quagmire saw Afghanistan for what it was straight away. Yet, just like Vietnam, our leadership still cannot bring themselves to call it a day and come home.
Or, we could have just looked at the lessons learned by Russia during their time in Afghanistan, hmm?
But Bush (meaning Cheney) would have none of that. Too much profit.
Our engagement in Afghanistan was spawned by decisions not in the national interest. In late fall 2001 this newspaper printed a startling story: the Taliban was offering to turn over Bin Laden if the US did not invade. It was a deal we should have eagerly taken -- our national interest then was the capture of Bin Laden. The Bush administration (obviously) refused this deal -- probably in part because Cheney, Bolton, and their minions were lusting for war, and probably partly because Bin Laden in prison would have resulted in a trial, in conformity with those who argued the attack of 9/11 was not an act of war but a hideous crime that should be investigated and prosecuted like, say, the attack on the Morrow building in Oklahoma City.
Had we taken the deal there would be no US troops in Afghanistan 18 years later, no invasion at all, no dead Americans or Afghanis, and trillions of dollars not squandered. But we -- or rather, Bush and his cronies -- didn't, and so here we are today.
A cold, clear analysis of national interest would have seen that getting our hands on Bin Laden was the only thing that really mattered. But it was personal interests that drove the decision -- Bush to one-up his dad, Cheney to seize the oil -- just as today Trump's personal interests, not the nation's, have driven policy toward Ukraine and who knows where else we do not know about.
1
In addition to honoring those who served in war, I always thought Veteran's/Armistic Day should additionally be an effort by nations to commit to avoiding endless battles.
In 2016, the military had 1 death due to enemy attack in Afghanistan. The value of troops in Afghanistan has more to do with the geopolitics of Pakistan. Many consider our mere presence as a valuable asset. People need to re-examine the true cost in lives in the whole of the middle east. Syrian involvement is more about the geopolitics of Russian aggression. The loss of lives has changed significantly in the last 10 years.
1
I worked in a non-military capacity in Afghanistan for 18 months as an adviser to the Afghan government on economic development issues. Here are the basic facts that every American should understand about Afghanistan:
1. We destroyed the secular socialist government in Kabul in the 1980s by arming the mujahadeen which became the Taliban. In that way, we created our future enemy.
2. We kept supplying Pakistan with money, arms and intelligence until very recently. They in turn supported the Taliban so we, in essence, funded the war against ourselves.
3. The entire mission in Afghanistan had extremely high levels of corruption surrounding it, partially because of the Karzai government and partly because of bad actors on the American/European side.
4. We never had a coherent strategy either militarily or politically and the current government in Kabul would likely collapse in a nano-second if the US pulled out all support.
5. The number of Afghan deaths is exponentially higher than American and European deaths. There is no comparison at all. The American input has been minimal although in some cases highly effective, at least temporarily.
6. The Taliban is as much a criminal organization as it is a political one and the current version is nothing like the one we encountered in 2002.
7. There will be no peace in the country until some kind of national identity can be forged. Don't hold your breath.
8. Trump has no idea what to do with Afghanistan and neither do Democrats.
1
Duty to defend one's country is always the duty of every soldier. This is why asking them to question it is ridiculous. Once they step away from the military and see the sole purpose is to make money off War or power for the GOP, they realize like the rest of us, we were conned. It is not easy for any soldier who has lost comrades or loved ones who have lost their young to see the truth about Iraq and Afghanistan. How could anyone expect them to consider facts when they are grieving or are tackling the effects of medical technology that saved their lives but left them with little else? Vietnam veterans felt the anguish of a nation who later realized it could not win the hearts and minds of a people not ready for Democracy or any western ideology.
The truth is hard to swallow. The truth is what we need to give our soldiers even if it hurts. Iraq was fabricated to make the rich richer and the GOP expand their power. It paid for the GOPs election winners and it paid their friends. Today is Veterans Day. The only way to honor our dead and honor the sacrifice these men and women have done is to tell them the truth. Afghanistan's politics must be shaped by their people not by us.
But we will not forget their noble sacrifice because instead of your son or daughter going they went to fight Wars we said needed to be fought in the name of national security.
I like so many others would like to thank these brave people for their service, a sentiment that is inadequate gien the suffering they have see.
The Afghan wars going back centuries have been a tragedy for everyone involved with no true winners. Alexander the Great, the British, the Russian and now the US and indeed the Afghan people themselves have been its victims. I think of the civilians murdered by the Taliban and shake my head in horror.
Afghanistan needs a UN peace keeping force backed by every concerned country in the world to help keep that peace, but in the end the Afghani people must decide that they are willing to step forward to work with that force. The Taliban feeds on the world's impotence and all peace loving people need to back that peace with all things available. Will this be enough? We can not abandon these people completely.
"Democracy doesn't come in a box" is an apt quote indeed. We Americans forget that democracy here did not start with the American Revolution or the drafting of the Constitution. British settlers already had the concept of a Parliament, and quickly established local governing councils in the absence of rule from Britain. They chose their own delegates to send to the Constitutional Convention. They were also already committed to resolving disputes peacefully, since they knew well the devastation the Protestant/Catholic wars had caused in Europe.
Democracy grows from the bottom up. When we try to impose it from the top down on people with no tradition of it, it fails. In societies that are fundamentally divided along ethnic, clan, and sectarian lines, the concept of coming together to share power equally just does not work. Afghanistan is, and will remain, a failed state no matter what we do, because its people do not see themselves as one, and are not committed to peaceful resolution of disputes. Perhaps their version of Islam is antithetical to that. Theocracy and democracy don't coexist very well. In any case, if we haven't succeeded in 18 years, we aren't going to succeed at all.
Why were the Romans almost always successful in fighting wars in unruly territories? Because their opponents learned (often the hard way) that Rome offered an opponent a choice: give up and join the empire (which had many economic advantages) or face utter, complete destruction. Caesar, it's estimated, killed a million Gauls and enslaved as many. If an opponent managed a tactical victory, the Roman Army just kept coming.
America, thankfully, does not have those impulses. Any war, given this nation's size and economic heft, is winnable. We won't pay the moral price for victory. Time to get out.
The US has no coherent strategy for the Middle East, but only vague statements that no one will be allowed to dominate the global oil markets and that terrorism isn’t to be tolerated. Lowest common denominator pablum.
The military tends to use ends, ways, and means. It’s not helpful to practitioners if they balled up on checking boxes and binning activities which is a waste of effort.
Instead consider:
1. What are we trying to accomplish? Be crystal clear on this and you stand a good chance to achieve it. Fuzzy definitions result in fuzzy outcomes.
2. What’s really going on here? Understand the incentives of all parties involved or affected. Know the constraints and limits imposed by geography, budgets, societal values, etc. Use whatever engineering or construction analogy you like to clear it up. You have to be realistic about the realm of the possible. Ignoring physics doesn’t yield useful results.
3. How are we going to get it done? This is detailed planning which includes inspection points where one can do quality control and adjustment for unanticipated events. The industrial analogy is quality control and schedule slack. You need both. Good performance and effectiveness metrics.
The process is iterative and cyclical.
It’s never one and done.
Only the dead can rest.
We never learned the lesson of the decades-long war in Viet Nam. First the French, then the United States, tried to prevent the communist takeover of that small beleagured nation. But the lesson (credit to Loren Baritz's excellent book on this subject) is simple: The Vietnamese people didn't have to win. The Afghani people don't have to win, either. They just have to STAY. Does any nation have the bottomless resources and political will to transform a country committed to a certain path, to what the invading nation believes is "best" for them? There is usually a great deal of economic self-interest on the part of the invaders. Staying there for 20, 30, or 40 years achieves nothing and causes great damage. And they don't have to win; they just have to stay and resist. Advantage to the invaded: they live there. It doesn't matter that we're "bringing them democracy" (or whatever facile excuse we use in any given situation). What matters is that each nation has the right to self-determination. We have enough to do here, protecting our own democracy from dictatorship. Our armed forces deserve better than this.
Many veterans complain that their (blind) patriotism was exploited by equally blind politicians. They lament their military actions. They describe the burden they carry having lost friends and their own sense of purpose.
What, then, is it that motivates them to volunteer? So that they can be plumped up by the empty `Thank you for your service' statements?
Patriotism is a process of thought and consideration. Fidelity to principles of humanity, pluralism and democracy is the bedrock of patriotism.
1
I believe Afghanistan was necessary in order reduce the threat of terrorist bases in the country. But as other commentators have noted no one has even been able to "tame" that country. You just can't turn a tribal nation into a democracy. Just look at what our political tribes are doing to our democracy.
The best we could have hoped for was a reduction of the risk of terrorists and the some stability. But no, we couldn't even keep the eye on the ball because the war machine was just getting going.
The Iraq invasion was a mistake. I still remember retired General Anthony Zinni on CSPAN explaining to a nearly empty room during his congressional testimony why the evidence was wrong and why we can't win in Iraq. No one listened to him and we went ahead based upon the false evidence provided by the Bush administration. So we diverted nearly all our resources from Afghanistan to Iraq, and the rest is history.
We won the war but lost the peace as so many people predicted. They were drowned out as being unpatriotic with such inane things like "Freedom Fries" by Republican Bob Ney renaming french fries due to France's opposition to the Iraq invasion.
Love these politicians who wrap themselves in the American Flag (or hug it) but have never served a day.
3
None of the lessons of Viet-Nam were learned by the subsequent administrations. We have no clear objective and no business interfering in governments we don't understand. Whatever reason there was for invading Afganistan and Iraq is long since gone. All we've done is de-stabilize the region and encourage the very terrorists we sought to eradicate. But if the government stops fighting, they cannot justify the budgets buying military 'toys' (not soldiers benefits or support) that keep Boeing and McDonald Douglas alive. I believe the soldiers are pawns in a never-ending chess game played by men pathologically unable to comprehend duty, honor, or country and whose sole objective is personal wealth and power.
2
I'm disturbed by the trend in corporate-funded and hypocritical worship of our armed forces. We were formed as a peace and justice and freedom-loving democracy, now we've become not only the world's police force but also its Terminator, with hi-tech weaponry that routinely wipes out our adversaries. There's no honor, in my opinion, in piloting a drone from Arizona to rain million-dollar munitions on adobe buildings in some remote place. The civilian body counts in Vietnam and Iraq alone are war crimes. We have to stop the mindless, corporate pr funded adoration of the poor men who are fed into the military meat grinder. They risk their lives, yes, that's true, but for whom and for what? And at what cost to themselves and their families? Listen to these soldiers. It's not admirable. It's not worth it.
3
I am a military reservist who recently learned I am being involuntarily recalled to Afghanistan, where I'll spend most of 2020.
Voicing my views as a private citizen, here is what I feel: I will proudly do my duty; unlike our President, I won't seek a Doctor's note to excuse me. But as I survey the national landscape, I cannot help but wonder WHY? Could our national leaders look me in the eye, and give me a coherent explanation to justify putting me in peril, for uprooting me from my family, my career, my home?
Yes, I volunteered to enter the service. But in return for my willingness to face risk on behalf of the country, I think I can fairly demand competence and good intentions from our national leaders. There, I've been gravely disappointed.
I fear that for the public and leaders increasingly detached from military service, the war meanders along with little thought, priority, or sacrifice. When I've shared the news of my coming deployment, I've been surprised by how little many members of the public know about the conflict ("We're still there?" "Is that the same thing as Syria?") So on this veteran's day, thank you, NY Times, for publishing the voices of those who have been there, those who have seen the war's toll with their own eyes, and those who will continue to bear its costs. I hope our leaders feel the weight of their words, and I hope that the public will remember the ongoing costs of this war.
8
The headline is wrong in this thoughtful article. The U.S. did not go into Afghanistan to spread “democracy”. The original reason was to vanquish a roving band of Al Qeada. That was all. What the U.S. is doing almost 20 years and $1 trillion later is a much different and needless mess. Bring all U.S. troops home.
3
If you have doubts about the USA being in Afghanistan, I suggest you read the book Green on Blue: A Novel. It points out how allies quickly change sides.
Thank you for this incredibly moving, important video.
We are in uncharted territory in terms of foreign policy. Over the past few years alone, I have seen many conservatives like Daniel L. Davis fully embrace anti-war ideologies (and I have also spoken to old school, Vietnam-era anti-war activists, most of whom view this as a genuine bright spot within our current partisan divide, while also worrying that the left has grown too complacent). That is the real reason why conservatives support someone like Tulsi Gabbard--not because of secret Russian conspiracies or political plots, but because the desire for non-interventionism is crossing the aisle, and frankly, it's one of the reasons why Trump won in 2016.
This past August, the Times put out an article about Gabbard scoffing at the prospect that democracy doesn't belong everywhere. Her beliefs in diplomacy have been met with similar derision. Yet both ideas were supported by the vets in this video, and it's time we started giving them serious consideration. Danny Sjursen himself wrote a defense of Gabbard only a few weeks ago: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/in-defense-of-tulsi-gabbard/
NYT, I implore you, please reconsider your positions on people such as Gabbard. There's no such thing as a perfect politician, but the reality is that we're long past due for a change in how we approach foreign policy.
In Afghanistan, the US is in Iran's backyard, and to some extent that of Pakistan and Russia as well; hence there will be no end to the war. The only hope would have been if some kind of agreement could have been made with Afghanistan's neighbours, but that would have been unlikely.
On the other hand, the war against drugs and crime in America's inner cities will never be won either. We still need to take from the wealthy to help those who are poor, partly because it is quite simply the right thing to do, but also because there will always be poor people who will rebel against a system that doesn't work for them.
1
We should begin the process now of identifying trustworthy Afghans who have worked closely with our forces there, and helping them exit the country. There is nothing wrong with our leaving Afghanistan, but there is definitely dishonor in abandoning those who helped us, as happened in Vietnam.
2
First thank you to those veterans who made the sacrifice for the mission in Afghanistan. It is not to be ignored when Americans volunteer to risk their lives regardless of the mission and the location of deployment. Second, I completely understand the points made by these brave vets. It is not easy to see why we remain in Afghanistan, but there is still a US footprint in many places after armed conflict ends - Germany, Japan, Korea, etc. So the "get out" because it's been ~20 years is not a valid argument to me. Changing the face of US presence requires security, and we are obviously not there yet. The real question is how do we get to post-war Afghanistan? In Germany, after WWII, we established a presence to deter the communist threat to peace in Europe and that worked because the Soviets and East Germans agreed to the rules of engagement. The Taliban and others in this region don't want to receive the positive effects of western democracy and capitalism, so they continue to fight every last US Soldier in their country. I think that a coalition of nations who are acceptable is what we should be trying to build. Perhaps the UN should be working with the US, Europe, and regional partners to deploy a peace-keeping operation that would be acceptable, then tie aid which would come from the US mostly, to progress in human rights, infrastructure, trade...The Taliban can't wall themselves off from the world and expect to succeed. That will only spawn the next iteration of Al-Queda.
It’s possible that the Afghan War could have gone better, but Bush mismanagement and the distraction of Iraq foreclosed better results.
1
Most Americans don't even know what historical event is celebrated in Veteran's day .
They think it is just a day for American Veterans.
1
I'm afraid Americans will never learn. If we're not in Afghanistan, we will pick a fight with some other country proclaiming our cause "righteous" and "a win for democracy." Never mind, Afghanistan is the perfect example of how the U.S. can't win a war even with far superior technology, weapons, etc. Why?
The reality is this: we go to war protect the Military Welfare Complex which includes the manufacturers, contractors and mercenaries who profit immensely by sending others into harm's way.
And I'm afraid I have to say this: if Americans would quit volunteering to go overseas to kill other people (for no good reason most of the time), we wouldn't be having this most unpleasant of conversations (again).
2
They don’t call Afghanistan “the graveyard of empires” for no good reason. There is no “winning” there. We were far likelier to “win” in Vietnam—and everyone knows how that turned out.
3
Thank you for this insight into a fruitless war by those who saw it firsthand. From its beginning I disapproved of our involvement in a place that had been fighting amongst itself for decades. Get out, America!
This war started by President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, has dragged on for 18 years without any real strategy or goal. It is painful to contemplate how this money could have been more productively spent.
1
@Gary W. Priester screw the money, contemplate how the lives of the Americans that died there could have been happily spent!
Afghanistan has been a disaster from day one. There is no country to defend. There is a government we set up that controls, maybe, Kabul. The rest of it is tribal and run by war lords. The Turks tried to tell us: the Taliban are the good guys who might bring some unity and order to the area. We, of course, invaded to destroy them. Our engagement in Afghanistan is a tribute to the stupidity of our leaders who got us into this mess and the lack of courage of all leaders since who refuse to admit the mistake. Vietnam rerun anyone?
2
Thank you, to the New York Times, for publishing this.
American troops in Afghanistan are not necessary for American or Israeli security. Let's pull out, and get this done. It will make all parties safer and more secure.
1
For four months in 2007 I was contractor in Afghanistan. As a result I am not an expert of Afghanistan, but I cam away with a distinct impression that we were doing nothing of lasting value, perhaps even doing harm with the distribution of American largess vis a vis vast sums of money impacting a corrupt environment.
From the Afghan point of view they’re fighting the invader du jour regardless of origin. Before the Muslim conquest they fought the Muslims. Afterwards they fought anyone who wasn’t Muslim. They fought Genghis Khan and Alexander the Great, wave upon wave of Persians, Tamerlane and George W. Bush. War is ok, normal.
The Taliban are not invaders, nor are they rebels. They are Afghans. Pressing American values like a a cookie cutter on an alien culture was bound to fail, costing life and limb on all sides. Afghans did not bomb the World Trade Center. Let them sort things out for themselves. Don't wait another 18 years.
1
'Democracy doesnt come in a box.' But sometimes soldiers do.
4
We might consider the money backflowing to American military contractors who likely enjoy wars. Patriotic jingoism still works
coming from certain mouths and heard by certain ears, but it is
time to get the public truly educated to history. The political playpen is full of trash and bonespurs. Remember Cheney?
5 deferments. Mitt's 5 strapping sons? W's AWOL from National Guard exercises? The disparagement of McCain and Gold Star
parents? We are a carnival nation and need to get serious.
3
Operation Enduring Freedom should be renamed Operation Enduring Madness. Because doing the same thing over and over again for 18 years while expecting a different result in a region that repulsed foreign invaders for centuries is the very definition of madness.
1
Afghanistan has defeated every country that ever tried to control her. Like Vietnam, it's time to admit defeat, do what we can to keep it isolated, and get our troops out. (Also, EVERY Afghan who has ever helped us!) We will never win. And, really, what is there to win? Once again, Americans have lost their lives for nothing, for the egos of detached individuals who run the government and the military. We should never have gone in, to begin with. Stop letting Republicans start these stupid wars. THEY never lose their children. Reinstate the draft, and don't let anybody beg off with fake medical conditions.
2
Unlike most Republicans, Trump has the right instincts regarding these "endless foreign wars." Unfortunately, Trump is also inept.
3
...unlike the American people, who supported this war in the beginning.
1
Yes, it’s Veteran’s Day, and, of course, “thank you for your service.”
But, you know what? You vote for Republicans. On top of that, you insult me by saying we Americans haven’t been “refreshing our browsers.”
I’ve been “refreshing my browser” plenty. In 2008, I voted for a president who wanted us out of endless wars. His name was Barack Obama.
Do, you know who got over 100,000 troops home from Afghanistan, as mentioned in this video? Well, that would be Barack Obama.
Do you know what our oh-so-patriotic military personnel said about Barack Obama? Well, it went along the lines that Barack Obama sides with terrorists and doesn’t love America.
All of a sudden, now, you’re all speaking up? I’m sorry to tell you this, but patriotism and hypocrisy is not mutually exclusive, and this video is the height of hypocrisy.
If any one of you is going to vote for Donald Trump in 2020 because he’s ‘getting you out,’ you are the biggest hypocrites of all time.
5
@CF
In response to myself, yes, the people in this video are veterans and therefore already out of the military, but they were serving at some point and I just have to wonder why all of a sudden they’re all so vocal about endless wars. It’s been almost twenty years in Afghanistan….didn’t it all become pretty endless at about ten years? Twelve years? Fifteen years? But, I never heard a peep out of the military rank and file, other than that Obama hated America.
It would have been a bit helpful and supportive of Barack Obama’s stated desire to get us out of there if we had a video like this published by the New York Times a few years ago.
I would also like to send an additional message to our military who may think voting for Trump is the right thing to do in 2020: if you can’t see that Trump is destroying America while he trashes our Constitution and our values each and every day, things it’s your duty to protect and defend, then your hypocrisy is just staggering.
Maybe 19th Century History can give us some clues in relation to the problems in Afghanistan ........the British have many stories to tell......but without a history lesson today......here is my suggestion........give Afghanistan to Iran.......it would keep them "busy" for a while......most Afghani refuges are already in Iran......Afghanistan used to be part of the Persian Empire.......just a thought......
The real question is why did it take NYT so long to come 'round. The notion that we can eliminate every possible terrorist haven and training site worldwide through conquest, pacification and democratization was always preposterous on its face. Difficult as it may be, we have to stop terrorism at the border.
1
George W. Bush made so many bad decisions as President its a wonder we even survived him. Obama and Trump both failed to change course and chose to continue with this morally bankrupt policy. After all, it’s the little people who die, not them. America is being punished by one horrible President after another.
Throughout our history, we Americans have derided imperialists. Yet, as our actions in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Canada (etc.) prove, we can be counted among the most capable -- and brutish -- imperialists.
Canada, you ask? The Revolutionary War wasn't yet a year old when American "patriots" invaded Canada, intent on making the country an American colony.
1
sorry everyone but our corrupt cowardly gov't has us slated to be there no less than 50 yrs. it's being withheld but it's a fact
Another waste of lives, resources, etc. We came , we tried to change them, and couldn't and will never. 18 years!! Is another 18 is going to change anything? Syria is the same nonsense, thankfully Trump sees the light that once we go somewhere we rarely leave even at great cost, that he pulled out of Syria, for the most part. Let Russia have that nonsense, and soon theyll be leaving in 5 years
Afghanistan is another example of the Military Industrial Complex run amuck and using our troops as cannon fodder. We went there to find Osama who was actually in Pakistan which was eventually ferreted out. That is the way successful militaries operate through intelligence , not brute force.
Afghanistan is one of these third world places the idiot Trump was mumbling about. It is not a country, it is a bunch of feudal states run by local strongman ( warlords) who pay no attention until the dollars start flowing.
Please remind the public about the 200 million the corrupt former President Karzais' brother deposited $200 MILLION IN $20 DOLLAR BILLS IN ABU DUBI.
All the roads we build help transport heroin to Europe. We need to leave , we have no business being there. It should have ended with the death of Bin Laden.
1
For nearly a trillion dollars (so far) I wonder how many Afgan women and children we could have allowed to come to this country to avoid the brutality of ignorant religious fervor. Let the boys with their murderous toys blow themselves up as they have been doing for centuries; at some point maybe they’ll learn.
Sure hope all the writers of this Op-Ed were opposed to the great Iraqi distraction back in March 2003
1
"War" good God you all what is it good for......"Absolutely nothing"
Vietnam was my war F111 in Korat.......We still haven't figured out that our form of democracy doesn't fit all. When will we learn in today's world you need a "clear purpose" and an "exit strategy". Our military and it's family's deserve this kind of leadership.
24/7 news gives us a myopic look at everything with very little balance just entertainment. That's why I have a subscription to the NY Times. I hold your writers to balanced and informative reporting. Otherwise I simply go to the next article.
What's the lesson to be learned? That politicians and bureaucrats and CEO's couldn't care less about the men and women in the military. They see them as just another tool just like they don't waste a moment's thought to a hammer that lies in the bottom of some drawer somewhere. Oh, sure, they'll say they care, particularly when debating other rich white guys, or at election time. Then you'll be forgotten. Proof? Wouldn't know where to start - just just look at how McCain was disparaged by Comrade Trump? Just look how Lt Col Vindman is being disparaged by some Senators and some in the media?
If you join the Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines/National Guard - you are agreeing to be treated like you don't matter and that your life isn't worth a dime.
--From the son of a USMC Viet Nam vet.
2
And then we will have another nest of terrorists.
Fewer wars of choice would provide fewer dead vets to worship on this day next year. And that'd be a very good thing.
1
Powerful!
We created the these religious fighters and until we defeat them we should be there. If you make a mess, you clean it.
An un-winable war in Afghanistan...who could possibly have seen that coming?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Afghan_War
Hopefully your kid will be more informed and avoid enlisting into a military who engages in dubious causes.
Afghanistan--where empires go to die.
1
The point that some have apparently missed is that this war is unwinnable. We have absolutely no idea what victory would even look like. What - all of the country becomes fiercely democratic, women have equal rights? If you think that is what's going to happen, you have no clue. If we leave next year or 10 years from now, the net result will still be the same. A civil war, the Taliban in control and things go back to the way they were 50 years ago.
It is unconscionable to continue to sacrifice our troops for literally nothing. They are not keeping us safe from some outside threat. They are not stabilizing anything. Declare victory and leave.
1
Can we win in Afghanistan? Not if winning is defined removing all hostile forces and turning the country into a Jeffersonian democracy. Can we win if we define winning as maintaining the status quo, keeping the wretched Taliban from power, and preventing the country from once again becoming a terrorist haven? By that standard, we are winning, or at least not losing. On that basis I support keeping troops in Afghanistan permanently as a preventative measure.
1
My father fought in three wars—WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. He flew (fighter pilot) in Vietnam from 64-66. By ‘68, he was adamantly against the war. He said it was a politicians war and the powers that be were not even trying to win it—just sending young men to be slaughtered or maimed. He was angry that men were dying for no reason. He made general in ‘70, and by then, many in the military felt the same way as my father (they prefer to die for a reason.). He gave me my POW bracelet when I was 10 years old. I am sure he would have been against Iraq and Afghanistan if he were alive. Iraq because it was preemptive and Afghanistan because it is futile.
1
I feel badly for our folks in uniform. They are really just being used as corporate pawns to protect American business interests, not the American people. Our Armed forces no longer are in place to protect the citizens of the USA, rather they have been co-opted into just protecting oil and other corporate assets. This is not a good time for our military.
5
People's attitude about the Afghan war and the middle east in general, have been affected by the current vile administration. Trump is chaos; he thrives on confusion, distraction and intimidation. When it comes to war, his reaction and promise is to pull out and leave them to fight for themselves. This might be OK if he had consulted with his military advisors as well as some troops and veterans, but he would rather do it all himself. So it is difficult for people to get a handle on the pros and cons of staying in or getting out. This is the worst time and the worst administration to be making such decisions. We should not expect our citizens to understand this complex situation, when our president has no idea what he is doing.
2
The US did not win the war in Afghanistan because they did not win the hearts of the ordinary Afghan people. They not even tried. Instead of spending billions on schools, hospitals and infrastructure the splashed them out for weapons, bribes for the government and the war lords and finally for ... coffins.
US foreign policy was and is catastrophic since WW2. The US is honoring their veterans not because of their bravery but because of their bad conscience and knowing to well, too many died and got permanently wounded for nothing. The US can do better and when this president and his administration are history, I hope new policies are defined and put into place. The world still need the US. Maybe even more in the light of so many dictators ruining this planet.
2
Everything we have done in Afghanistan has been a failure. From aiding the Mujahideen against the USSR to today.
And of course, so has it been for all the other countries who tried to interfere.
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@Terrence Zehrer
the British lost, the Soviets lost and so have the Americans. no outsiders win in Afghanistan. best get out its a no win situation.
7
@Terrence Zehrer Actually we had a complete and total victory in Afghanistan after the 9-11 attacks. The Taliban was voluntarily breaking up. Then we pulled our troops out and sent them to attack Iraq for no good reason at all. We lost all the goodwill we had earned, the Taliban came back and the rest is tragedy.
4
@Terrence Zehrer
Wrong.
We saved the Afghan people from being mauled by the Soviets. If you think we should have just allowed that to happen, please make that argument.
My colleague, a pharmacist here in the US who fled Afghanistan as a boy, remarked to me that "9/11 is the best thing that ever happened to my country." He went on to talk about the enormous infrastructure, hospitals, roads, bridges, clean water, schools and so on which we have built.
So while need to get out of that country yesterday, we can be proud of what we tried to do and have done. Most any other country would have flattened Afghanistan and left it bleeding in response to their having hosted the Al Queda.
2
There is a likely correlation between endless wars and excessive executive branch power. Students of Ancient Rome point out it was, at least partly, the empire that made the emperor.
If you are concerned that the executive has too much power, stop these wars. We have been using the same AUMF for nearly two decades and have a congress that prefers not to be on the record about voting to continue these wars or new ones.
1
Hugely dispiriting to watch this video and to acknowledge the many failures in Afghanistan. There will be no winners, certainly not in the next few decades.
1
It is interesting how much veterans of the various wars in the Middle East change their views depending on who is president.I know a number of young vets and have thought since the invasion of Iraq that our involvement there was a mistake.During the G.W. Bush years these vets told me that they were "defending my freedom" by fighting the war in Iraq.Then during the Obama administration they told me Obama was making a big mistake advocating a troop drawdown.They said such a move had created ISIS.Now with Trump, they are saying these wars are not worth it and are unwinnable.While I know their service was great sacrifice for them and they behaved heroically,I can't help thinking that their views on that conflict are more a reflection of whether the President is a Republican or a Democrat than a rational conclusion based on their experience.I am sure that if,let's say,Warren were to become President...they'd be all in on escalating the conflict once moreTo be clear....I'm not talking about all veterans of those wars....just the majority of them.
2
@Iamcynic1
Partisanship is a given on all sides of any debate.
I do not agree that our troops fight for a political party or leader, that is almost insulting,
It is my opinion that first and foremost, out troops do their job, they are most motivated to defend their country and fellow troops.
Everything is not about politics and partisanship, IMHO. Those political games are the ones we, who risk nothing, play so very comfortably far from the battlefields.
1
@Si Seulement Voltaire I did not say that "our troops fight for a political party".I said that their views on the legitimacy of a given war are mostly formed by their political persuasion and that these views seem to depend on who's President.I agree that our troops are the best and best equipped military the world has ever scene.I am certainly not questioning their dedication and performance on the battlefield.I just wish more of them had expressed these reservations during the Iraq war as John Kerry did during the Vietnam war. If they had ,we might not be in the situation we are now.We might not have lost all the brave soldiers (including the Kurds) that we did.
Look at the present situation... where the military service of both Lt.Col. Vindman and Ambassador Taylor are ignored or questioned by Republicans. Or Robert Mueller's distinguished service in Vietnam.I don't hear any Republicans calling them great patriots willing to fight for their country?All of a sudden veterans are out of favor with Republicans.You think politics isn't involved?
2
I believe we had every reason to go after Bin Laden after 9/11... However, the Taliban, tribalism and self destructive philosophies are faiths are something no one can deal with other than the Afghans themselves.
It took many centuries for Western societies to separate themselves from their religious powers and build secular, democratic states. The Muslim people and countries will have to do the same to build their societies.
Haven't most Americans and citizens of the world understood that nation building is not possible unless the people want the help, actually want to pay the human price to rebuild. Post WWII Europeans and the Japanese are the only ones who were a truly successful example of rebuilding their nations into viable democracies with the help of the US - the people did the hardest part, money only helps.
Time to leave the forever wars, support the people where possible and/or intervene where needed - but only from afar.
3
Some will advocate that a reintroduction of the draft would stop future wars. Unfortunately, the draft did not stop WW I, WW II, Korea or Vietnam. It might have if it was universal and there were no deferments...except that if it was, the system couldn't process everyone at once.
One modification that would help: Draft the oldest first, women included. Start with those with the highest income and most children.
If we had not entered the first World War there most likely would not have been a second, not to mention Korea, Vietnam, etc.
1
@Barry Borella
The combined years of all the wars you mentioned did not total the number of years, "so far", that have been spent dealing with conflicts in Afghanistan or the Middle East in general.
Clearly, conflicts that are continued primarily to serve the never ending thirst of the military/industrial complex and an utter failure of American foreign policy in the region.
2
Sometimes, there actually are unwinnable wars. Because there is no definition that particularly suits the word win in their specific case. Sometimes there is just the fight to sustain what there is. If we cut and run, we allow Afghanistan to return to the Taliban in a couple of years....I think there are ways to end the fight, by splitting the country up into tribal areas, and installing a UN peacekeeping force along the borders....that way the tribal fight is no longer the Taliban fight, and vice versa.
@James David
The experience the Russians had in Afghanistan should have been a wake up call to Americans, yet, they still did not learn and by supplying the insurgents with weapons to fight the Russians, out of the ashes emerged Osama Bin Laden who turned his attention towards America and the rest is history.
If removing troops from areas where they might be killed or injured is so important, why are so many liberals against removing our troops from Syria? Do they have close ties to defense contractors?
1
@John Bowman
No, just the politicians of "both" parties who accept lobbyists money from the contractors of the military/industrial complex.
Remember the Lies That Filled Military Cemeteries:
Politicians will be heartily applauded for saluting American’s soldiers today. But if citizens had better memories, elected officials would instead be fleeing tar and feathers. Politicians have a long record of betraying the veterans they valorize.
https://mises.org/wire/veterans%E2%80%99-day-remember-lies-filled-military-cemeteries?fbclid=IwAR1NYksffkhgE7oAPgRZaYHzWXNSVG7PMReFFo39BGxM4SpwH-ZDAcTvyGI
USMC/USN Vietnam 1967-68
1
I wonder what Malala Yousafzai thinks about American troops leaving Afghanistan.
We have Special Ops forces fighting in the Philippines, a country we invaded 121 years ago.
1
thank you for your service.
Nothing new here. This war was not necessary since day one. The Taliban where not responsible for 9/11. And the reason Bush pushed for it was to prepare his attack on Iraq.
The reason was supposedly 9/11 but to justified the war and convince people, politicians talked about human rights, the burqa was everywhere. But the Taliban did not invent the burqa.
So those men had to go there to know that? It tells a lot about education, access to media and transparency.
2
If we truly want to honor our veterans on this day, we should pledge not to send our military into harm's way unless it is to protect our country or our allies. Forget about nation building, spreading democracy, blocking the spread of communism, or protecting American interests (read oil fields). And, if the need does arise, then it must be authorized by Congress and paid for by increased taxes. It is beyond time we lived up to the propaganda we spread to the world and tell ourselves. I speak as a veteran of the Vietnam war in which young men continued to die long after our leaders knew the war was unwinnable. And for what? Why was it necessary to sacrifice our most patriotic citizens in a useless cause?
2
The object of the Afghanistan invasion, Osama Bin Laden, is dead. Terrorism throughout the world is growing. Our presence in Afghanistan for so long has done nothing for combating terrorism.
Trillions of dollars gone. An elite political class in Afghanistan is living large off those dollars. Those dollars could have been used in the US for better purposes.
Regime change has not worked anywhere in the world. We have trained and armed thousands of Afghans. We have done our job.
Declare success and get out.
57
@kirk You forgot to mention the Americans who have died there...
4
@steve Heros, but they died in vain as did those who died in Vietnam and Iraq.
2
@steve And you forgot the tens of thousands of innocent Afghanis, mostly poor, tribal people who never attacked the USA and have no capacity to attack the USA, and have no way to allow/disallow terrorists to operate in their lands (any more than Americans should be killed because we have terrorists, white supremacists and gangbangers).
2
The original mission in Afghanistan was to kill or capture Osama bin Ladin and al Qaeda leaders who planned the 9-11 Terror Attacks. The United States should have extracted its forces from Afghanistan immediately after the Battle of Tora Bora in December 2001. The engagement destroyed the terrorist’s cave complex and training center, but bin Laden escaped to Pakistan. “Mission creep” then set in, and America made the same mistake the British and Russians made in Afghanistan when they embarked on nation-building campaigns.
1
Same as Vietnam, same as Iraq, and even in the war against firearms, when Americans are being killed in a war that seems impossible to be explained any longer, call for its end start to become impossible to ignore until after many more useless deaths finally the “leaders” recognize that their interests can no longer continue hidden behind some altruistic lie. I wonder what it will take to end the war on drugs, which is taking far more innocent lives than the drugs that are legally and illegally sold in the US do, one in which private and special interests have a tremendous say and in which are very seldom American lives taken, but one which is rendering many Latinamerican countries unviable and in the process generating large numbers of refugees with no other option but to seek asylum in the United States.
You'd think we would have learned our lesson from Viet Nam.
(Nope. Remember, this is America.)
2
I think this war was lost long ago at the very beginning, when Bush went to Iraq instead of Afghanistan. And even then it would probably have been lost, because the goals, I think, were a bit ignorant of the realities on the ground.
Bush squandered time and resources and lives. Had the concentration been on Afghanistan, I think the results might have been better. Not the best, but better. He had to shoehorn in Iraq for whatever reason.
1
Trump is right and HRC is deadly wrong about nation building.She was working with Obama to destroy dictators and on the way responsible for millions of deaths but also it was them who refused to give needed help to Ukraine . We need a good democrat or if not Trump 2020.
1
The British couldn’t win in Afghanistan, the Soviets couldn’t win in Afghanistan, but American exceptionalism was sure to. Right.
1
Also Syria? Pull out of all the "forever wars"? Maybe Trump is right on at least this one issue?
1
When was the last time you heard anyone in government even try to rationalize the U.S. invasions of Middle Eastern countries?
Obviously, our initial invasions were to seize oil fields, but also profitable was control of 90% of the world opium crop, which we still have - at tremendous taxpayer expense. (Oh, look, there's a mysterious opiate epidemic in America!)
Arms makers, major campaign donors all, don’t object to making zillions on weapons and ammo, and Cheney's construction firm made billions rebuilding stuff Cheney had ordered destroyed.
Defeat terrorism and bring freedom and democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria?
You bet.
1
Why do we never learn? The Soviets got mired in an un-winnable attempt to take over Afghanistan for a decade. The Taliban surely germinated during those years ('80s). The people & their culture, the unforgiving terrain - it's madness for the US, with all our sophisticated but clumsy military machinery & ham-handed "strategies" - to think we can succeed there.
1
Look at a history book. No one has ever won a war in Afghanistan. Not the Brits, not the Russians, and certainly not us.
Save the ones who helped us, no visas to Afghani citizens without a five year wait period. Tie aid to Pakistan to demonstrated commitment to encourage good behavior from their neighbor. , because right now they are Taliban boosters. Inviting Taliban representatives to talk to Trump et all is ludicrous. Let them stay in their own country in and economic backwater of their own making. Somebody there, eventually, will have the good sense to recognize then can't develop the rare earth deposits there without help -- help that only comes when Afghanis "grow up" and act like adult citizens of the World. Otherwise, let them read their Koran by candlelight. No it won't make the lives of Afghani women and girls any better. But neither does bombing the place to smithereens.
1
How did a hunt for Bin Laden morph into an unending, unwinnable fight against an endemic Taliban? No one could even describe what "victory" would look like.
Time to cut our losses.
Ok. Pull them out. Then what? I too served - for 28 years and then got blown up in Iraq- and I have a very deep understanding of geopolitics and the results of doing nothing. One result was 9/11. Do nothing and something even worse will happen to the homeland.
By far the bulk of our politicians are not equipped, on any level, to make real decisions about anything to do with actual warfare, or the use of it. The only people that are educated, trained and experienced in this matter are at the Pentagon and have a vested interest in the matter.
Anyone got a real solution except the volunteer army will keep the foolish mess going forever?
We are training the Pakistanis and gifting them billions, who turn around and train and fund the Taliban, who in turn fight us. Pakistan then asks us for more money to help in their "fight" with the Taliban. For Pakistan, this is a money-making extortion racket.
Stop handing the Pakistanis money.
2
The term "graveyard of empires" gets more tragic mileage. I'll just add remarking on it to probably others commenting here.
"In February, The New York Times editorial board called for an end to the Afghan war, a marked shift from its yearslong policy of support."
The NYT has much to answer for about that.
It mattered more during the Obama years. It mattered more during Hillary's campaign.
Now, it is just another angle to attack Trump. It comes from one of his enemies, and will have no influence on him.
Then, it could have, should have, influenced policy. That influence was devoted to keeping the war going. Answer for that.
3
There are politicians and then there is reality.
Why aren't Bush, Cheney et al. in jail?
1
It is a bloody shame that so little we hear and read about those who survived on paper, but are mentally and/or physically maimed and destroyed, who were sent to their deaths for absolutely frivolous reasons, that had absolutely nothing to do with defending the homeland.
Why is America on a constant war footing?
When was America attacked in the past 200 years?
I have not read all the comments. So, pardon me if it has already been said, but the truth is that World War Two was the last "good war".
2
We have bright people in the Military and in the State Dept. We can't figure this out? Really? Pakistan.
1
Unfortunately, the only way that the war in Afghanistan could ever make sense would be if we were going to be there for generations, so that the Taliban, ISIS etc. wouldn't believe that they could just outlast us. Both the George W. Bush Administration and the Obama Administration have crassly thrown away whatever short-term advantages we've been able to achieve. Our policies have been incoherent. We've given ordinary people in Afghanistan just enough reason to hope that they can feel betrayed now. We've played our part in breaking the country even more than it already was broken. We've left it at least possible that a new regime will be established that will be worse than the old one. We've done nothing whatever in the long run to reduce the danger, locally or worldwide, of terror. And we've done it also at the expense of our own military people.
When my nephew Will Stacey was killed in Afghanistan in January 2012 I thought surely he would be one of the last American service members to be killed in that war. That almost eight years has passed since his death and American service members are still in danger there is obscene.
56
@AKS
And do remember to think about the too many Afghans who have died because of the US pursuing its "national interest"...
8
Sorry for your loss. But like your nephew, I volunteered, was wounded on fourth tour in Iraq and I would do it again. We all understand the potential sacrifice and do it not because we are forced or coerced, but we do it because it is our duty we swore to uphold. Again, I am very sorry for your loss.
16
@John OBrienj ... and what, then, makes that different from the good German soldier in the 1940's? Simply that we're good for our word? Fourth tour. Slow learner ... if at all.
What did America think they could accomplish in Afghanistan that the Russians couldn't in the 1970's? In fact while supplying the insurgents with weapons who were fighting the Russians, even though Russia eventually left, out of the ashes of the insurgents came Osama Bin Laden who turned his attention towards America and the rest is history.
When the CIA helped depose a democratically elected leader in Iran in the 1950's, from that point on, American foreign policy has been a dismal failure, continual conflict fought without resolution, Americans killed, all to basically justify the never ending thirst of the U.S. military/industrial complex. TRILLIONS spent that could have been much better used serving the needs of America instead of the military contractors.
I believe it was George McGovern who stated quite accurately, "the Government in America consists primarily of a bunch of rich, old white guys who have no problem at all sending young American men and women to die".
Wasn't Afghanistan supposed to be the "good" war, and Iraq was the "bad" one? That's what Obama, Hillary, Biden, Kerry and the others told us back in the run up to the 2008 election. Right? But somewhere between 2008 and today, it went to being another "bad" war. Now, that Trump is finally making an appreciable effort to remove us from the Syria and Afghanistan quagmires, "American leaders remain reluctant to make major changes." Is that solely because it's Trump's idea, and anything the orange man does is bad or because the "American leaders" have a legitimate reason to keep us there? My bet is on the former.
The NYT’s editorial from February was compelling; We cannot have a legitimate discussion about withdrawal without an authentic review of whether the threat to our borders is real or perceived. Threat of another 9-11 is the chief operating premise for why Americans tolerate a continued presence in the Middle East.
Attempts to influence this decision with anecdotal testimony from soldiers who were fighting on the scene is subordinate; war is ugly and the tactics of it seem relentless and unforgiving, but you can’t run from a fight - i.e., WWII - on the basis that war is ugly and good people get hurt.
It should not be lost on anyone that if the flight deck doors on commercial airlines were as secure in 2000 as they are today, 9-11 would have never happened. Something else in another form, maybe, but not an event of that magnitude. The chain reaction of that NTSB oversight has been miserable; flying commercially is forever now an awful experience, we’ve spent $7 trillion trying to clean up the mess, and it has cost us the lives of over 15,000 military and contract soldiers and ten times that in casualties.
Obviously our borders are fundamentally secure given the volume of enemies we have throughout the world and their inability to re-create the nightmare of 9-11. We need a national discussion, in this presidential election, as to what degree that level of protection has come about by our presence in Afghanistan versus other strategies and tactics.
2
It’s telling that the (only) two 2020 candidates who’ve served consistently advocate for withdrawal; while those who opted for limousines and luxury over fatigues and a rifle want to recklessly perpetuate involvement abroad. Their expertise in strategy and foreign policy is as genuine as their own sacrifices to our cause.
So long as we keep electing Cheneys and McConnells, expect your kids’ generations to get some Afghan dust on their boots.
Listen to the soldiers.
3
When Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki testified honestly before Congress about the projected costs of our invasion and occupation of Iraq, George W. Bush and the rest of the neocon chickenhawks ran Shinseki out of town.
We never have enough money to feed children, or provide health care for seniors, or provide every child in America the opportunity for a world-class public education. We can't afford to take world leadership in the 21st-century global energy transition. Fixing our crumbling infrastructure so that families can have clean drinking water and decent transportation and affordable high speed broadband is just to expensive.
But we always have money only for endless war and never-ending tax cuts for the wealthy.
May God have mercy on our souls.
6
The one veteran said it best (paraphrased); withdraw and let it be what it will be. It will be the Afghan people who ultimately decide whether or not to be governed by the Taliban.
1
The government has never defined exactly what a "win" would be in Afghanistan.
1
We went into Afghanistan before there was a Taliban. We went in undermine a government that was aligned with the Soviet Union, and we were happy to support religious fundamentalists for the purpose.
46
@John Williams that is not true. The Taliban was officially formed Oct. 10th, 1994.
"Osama bin Laden, mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, moved to Afghanistan in 1996 as it came under the rule of the Taliban. Bin Laden, a wealthy founder of al Qaeda from Saudi Arabia, had previously fought in the Soviet-Afghan war in the previous decades along with the mujahideen fighters who would later form the Taliban." WP-Aug 22, 2019
5
@RS
I believe Mr. Williams was referring to our substantial military & financial aid for the Mujahideen during the 1980's.
12
@John Williams
It was a mistake we make over and over: the enemy of our enemy is our friend. No. We are especially stupid about religion. The mujahedeen were as anti American as anti Russian. Religion first for them, money and oil first for us. We are loyal Saudi Arabia allies even though their version of Islam is the basis for most Islamist Jihad, 15 Saudis took part in 911 and Kashoggi was sawed in pieces for criticizing the Saudis in the Washington Post. But Aramco shares will be worth billions!
3
The problem is that any politician who to withdraw would be called names with a revolt from the Pentagon top brass. People will cry, “our men and women in uniform have died in vain.”
Also, it can be equally argued this is a Trumpian opinion because Trump suggested in withdrawing from Afghanistan. That makes withdrawal from Afghanistan a no-no unless Trump forces it as he did with Syria.
@Deep Thought In regards to the second paragraph, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Trump is being rightfully criticized for abandoning the Kurds in Syria. Our pulling out of Iraq led to the rise of ISIS. Leaving Afghanistan would allow the Taliban to reassert their brutal rule, a particular setback for the women and girls of that country. A solely diplomatic approach to the world's problems is ineffective unless backed up by the willingness to use military force. (How much diplomatic clout does Denmark have?)
Yes, we can retrench and pull all our military forces out of foreign countries. But we tried that after World War I and it didn't work out very well. The Cold War lasted over 40 years before the Soviet Union collapsed. We are losing more soldiers to accidents than to combat. This is a burden we can handle.
2
Governments are a collection of men who do violence to the rest of us.
Leo Tolstoy
2
There are no Victors in Afghanistan, just Victims.
1
The GWB Administration dove headlong into this conflict with no exit strategy. At that time they believed the blossoming of democracy in the Islamic Middle East was just around the corner.
Since then our political and military leaders have pursued a policy that stalemate and perpetual war is better than defeat. That's what they learned from Vietnam?
2
We learned nothing from Vietnam. Rather than take the time to analyze the problem after 9/11 we jumped and went all in, again. Then we did the one thing for Iran that they could not do themselves. remove Saddam Hussein. A two front war. What can go wrong? To me, history will say that Russia won the Afghan War by getting us to take it over. Our arms industry is spread across the country and what we export most of today is weapons. I guess those are good job. I would prefer to see our troops well supplied, supported, trained and in their barracks stateside. That way they are ready to go when needed. We don't do infrastructure at home because we are dropping vast quantities of million dollar munitions on peasants. I do not want my grand children over there.
3
The Earth has limits. The US military has limits. Creating a totally new culture in Afghanistan and some other places is not possible. We should do what we can. But we shouldn't waste our blood and money on a false dream of world renovation. And for many other countries, they need to change their world... with our help. If they don't own the change, fight for the change, it won't happen. We aren't gods.
A key problem in the world is overpopulation. The Earth is finite. So when there are too many people to sustain the people, violence and social chaos results.
Finally, the current political struggle for the Presidency of Afghanistan is not going to end well. The struggle for power, domination, control and wealth is .... a fight to the death.
Finally Two, we may need to be involved in Afghanistan, but in a more limited way. Like the struggle against ISIS, the US cannot wait for the terrorists to arrive on our doorsteps (they are already here!). We may need to have VERY LIMITED participation in Afghanistan. We need to get over binary thinking: either nothing or everything.
2
I’m a veteran. I deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq. I’ve seen first hand the devastation that the conflicts have wrought upon the world. I also understand the frustrations of service members, because they are my frustrations.
But withdrawing all armed forces is a catastrophic mistake. The Taliban is currently enjoying a massive strategic victory, but we do not have to withdraw and allow the Taliban to regain control of the country.
The problem in Afghanistan has always been a complete breakdown of diplomacy and soft power. The defense contractors are the only ones that won. Every new rotation brought a new command group and new broken promises. Again and again, all the people of Afghanistan who we worked with was just some consistency and kept promises.
And that is how we win freedom for the people of Afghanistan. It will be expensive. Massive infusions of resources and diplomatic aid, not bombs and bullets. That’s always been how we could win.
Withdrawing now and allowing the Taliban to again seize control of the country ensures we will be back there again, 20, 30, or 40 years from now. It’s time we stop repeating the mistakes of the past. It’s not popular. But withdrawing now is a colossal mistake. Just look at what happened to Iraq and Syria after the US withdrew prematurely with no long term strategic plan and an undersized and highly centralized diplomatic mission.
2
@Austin Ouellette I respectfully disagree. There are multiple Conflicts, Massive Violence against Women and Human Rights Violation, committed daily, throughout the world. Why don't we actively take part in them also and "save them"? Is one life, conflict, country, worth more than the other? (I am fully aware that USA has troops in more than 150 countries, last time I read that in Financial Times)
3
@Stone
I understand your point. But I’d like to tell you the story about Nicky. Nicky was the local national mechanic we worked with. He was an amazing mechanic. Better and more intuitive than most of the ASE’s I’ve ever known.
By the time I met him, he’d already been working with the Canadians & Americans for almost 10 years. He had a price on his head so large he had to move his entire family within our fob’s walls to keep them safe.
The Taliban wanted him so badly, his family hadn’t set foot outside the compound’s walls in years. Despite everything he’d done for us, and the great personal sacrifice and peril he’d taken in trying to help us secure a better future for his country and his children, the US had rejected his citizenship application.
We cannot, cannot abandon all of those thousands of people who have worked for as long as we have to try to secure a better future for their country.
I am confident that we will abandon them though. Because staying and doing it right is highly unpopular. But mark my words, the future in which we leave is orders of magnitude worse than the future in which we stay.
35
@Austin Ouellette I hear what you're saying and I agree that we are in a tough spot. However, this argument that "we must stay for decades to make our earlier mistakes right" is absurd.
Afghanistan will never be ruled by the United States, or any invader. It is literally called the Graveyard of Empires. They will wait, their hate for the invader growing by the day, until we have been drained of blood and money.
1
For anyone wondering the best way to thank a vet for his/her service, this help point you in the right direction. Right now, lawmakers don't care about this issue because not enough of their constituents care about this issue because it only affects a small percentage of the population. If we make this important for who we support and how we vote, things will change. As another reader noted, a draft would bring about an end to the forever war real fast because everyone would have the "opportunity" to be affected.
1
The United States starts a war and, somewhere along the line, forgets why it started the war. The United States has the mindset that everyone in the world should want the same form of government we have. The United States thinks it is the savior of humanity.
We need to let other nations make their own choices. We threw off the government we did not want. At the time it was the most powerful country in the world. When another country has that level of determination and asks for help we can offer it.
1
Our President does not have his sons or daughters fighting in Afghanistan, nor does the majority of our congressional leaders and members of Congress. And for that matter how many billionaires sons and daughters are fighting in that war? As long
as it suits the people in powers needs and their children aren't
being sacrificed the war will go on.
2
"“Fifteen years from now, I don’t want my kid to die in the war that I went to.”
The military is not a jobs program. Those who volunteer for military service should be ready to fight and die. So, tell your kid not to join the military. (It wouldn't bother me and a lot of other folks much if the military budget were cut and the size of the armed forces reduced.)
3
Remember the woman who stood outside Congress offering enlistment encouragement to members senators and representatives? What was her name, which war was it? Doesn’t matter. Our armed forces are comprised largely of those trying to escape poverty. The disconnect between our millionaire/billionaire political figures and the people they’re sending off to war continues to grow. I hated the draft, but at least it meant that more American politicians had skin in the game.
8
We are often forced to choose the best option when all options are bad.
Fareed Z. had an excellent piece on this topic a while ago on cnn.com. There was no choice but to respond militarily in Afghanistan, and real progress has been made. Consider how many young girls are going to school now. Someday it is likely they will want the same for their children.
We won wars in Europe, Japan and South Korea...and we are still deployed in all of these places a lifetime later. Are these occupations or policy failures? I would say they are neither.
Our NATO allies are still in Afghanistan and have not set an exit date. This seems to indicate they still see some value in the mission. Deciding when leaving becomes less bad than staying is not a decision Trump is capable of making with the interests of the American people in mind, because he makes no decisions with the interests of the American people in mind. Whatever the "right call" is, it can wait for a functioning president to make it.
2
my first disappointment with obama was that he did not have a plan to end the wars quickly. here we are almost 11 years later and the end will be the same as if he had done it when he came into office. it will also be the same in another year, 5 years, ten years fill in the blank. it will be like Viet nam (peace with honor) as we lift the last lucky person off the top of a building.... in the meantime the soldiers are cannon fodder because their leaders have no political spine.
8
Bring back the draft with alternative national service and NO exceptions. Then all of America will be invested and Veterans won't need to lobby and plead like some kind of special interest group.
Congress, take control - declare "war" - fund it and end it without the micromanagement of an Imperial Presidency. At stake are American tax dollars and precious lives which could be put to better use.
You may say I'm naive, but I'm not the only one.
10
I absolutely agree that there should be a National Draft or Public Service!
I came to this conclusion after a nephew wanted to apply to the Naval Academy and his parents absolutely refused to support him. The father is a law partner and mother is a decorator- it was the epitome of “our kind don’t serve”. Interestingly enough, the nephew is now a volunteer fireman while attending University. Some young people have a desire for public service.
The Military should not be seen as a way out of poverty. There should not be large populations of US Citizens who do not know a single family with military
9
Thank you for running this. As a Vietnam era veteran, it is more than sad to see the US doing the same stuff over and over again, while expecting a different result. Democracies are not built from above; they are the result of the hard work by those on the ground.
9
There's reason why Afghanistan is known as the "graveyard of empires". Outsiders as far back as Alexander the Great have had designs on the place and failed to subdue it. More recently, Britain and Russia fought "the Great Game" over control of Afghan territory. We learned nothing from the Soviet invasion in the late '70's and their retreat after 10 years of futility. We went there in October 2001 to get bin Ladin and to supposedly eliminate the Taliban as a source of terrorism support. Here we are 20 years later, still fighting and propping up a government that probably wouldn't exist without our military support. And then there's Iraq.....
We had a role in allowing ISIS to flourish in Iraq and Syria and at least we have been mostly successful in eliminating that threat but the U.S. bears most of the responsibility for the mess that stretches from the western border of India to Libya. We need to back out. We're not helping.
11
Lyndon Johnson knew the war in Vietnam was unwinnable and would drain resources from his domestic agenda. Still, he persevered and 60,000 US soldiers died in combat. We have seen this pattern repeated in Iraq and Afghanistan where nothing of value has been achieved at the cost of blood and treasure.
The next politician who thanks our military for their service needs to build a case for endless war while our veterans suffer without meaningful reform of the institutions designed allegedly to support them and their families when they return home from their tours. That statement is as stale and hollow as "our thoughts and prayers" extended to the victims of the latest outrageous gun massacre.
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@Rick Spanier
Read Robert Caro's LBJ books, they are wonderful.
Or use the C-Span site to listen to discussions with Robert Caro.
Yes, LBJ knew Vietnam was unwinnable.
But his burning passion was the War on Poverty.
He knew that if he pulled out of Vietnam, the Establishment uproar would crash all War on Poverty programs... which were his reason for being.
Those years when LBJ was so anguished by the horrible choice forced on him, WOULD MAKE A WONDERFUL and ILLUMINATING PLAY!
Playwright, do it! please!
In understanding the centrality of the War on Poverty to LBJ, you need to know the circumstances of LBJ's youth, so well told in Caro's first LBJ book.
Certainly LBJ was not perfect, but he was impressive, and he tried heart and soul to make life better for the many.
Since 1945, the United States has been involved in near continuous wars around the globe. It is disingenuous to think that somehow we can "end" this or that war. Whatever country we pull out of, there will be another country we insert ourselves into.
The question that needs to be asked is not whether we should pull out of this or that place but what it is about the political-economy of the United States that drives it to endless war.
As usual, Americans prefer homiletics to structural analysis. These wars are not "bad" decisions. They are *systemic* decisions. That is where the focus must be placed.
10
@Chip
Are you suggesting that without the economy built based on wars, the economy would crash?
There would be difficulties, but transitioning to the Green New Deal, infrastructure and quality education for all could take up the slack... though it will be messy.
But we have to transition from a war based economy or US citizenry/society will continuously weaken.
The world has enough weapons, but not enough education.
@Lucy Cooke I was indeed suggesting that we need to reorient our economy. More than that we need to move away from economies-for-profit to economies-of-sustainability. Not easy and can't be done unilaterally.
The US government has a hard time even learning from its own mistakes; maybe it was too much to hope it could learn from Russia's.
11
Did the US have any real plan to win the "hearts and minds" of the Afghanis? Not really. After the Soviet withdrawal in 1989, the US had developed a comprehensive aid package for Afghanistan, but it never materialized. A decade of civil war continued, creating the power vacuums that led to the Taliban rule. After 2001, the US spent trillions on a military campaign in Afghanistan, but it took more than a decade before the US began to develop a sound plan to actually win over the Afghani people. Too late.
3
I agree. Democracy will never work in that country.
10
@M Sure bet the US is not capable of exporting working Democracy abroad when it can't even execute it properly at home.
The Iraq war was sheer insanity. But the Taliban, in Afghanistan, harbored Al-Qaeda. The latter hit us, so we had to hit back. But I think the whole thing might have been avoided if we’d done something like split foreign aid equally between Israel and Palestine. We need to treat the non-Saudi Arabs better. I say withdraw the troops, but fix our foreign policy.
5
@Anonymous Al-Qaeda hit us because we were over there interfering. Osma bin-Lauden made that perfectly clear.
Are we at war in Afghanistan any more? We have soldiers there true, but it seems like it's more of a police action (with heavy weapons) when the coalition death totals are in the dozens per year. Face it - America is kind of an empire, and empires have to put troops on Hadrian's wall for decades if need be. That's the cost.
7
A rhetorical question, but does any other country have the military presence in every corner of the globe like we do? I am not bragging, rather questioning what resources we are protecting to insure "our way of life/freedoms".
5
@Steve
Mostly the US is protecting unrestrained global capitalism,
and desperately trying to be the dominate power, in a world where that is not possible.
The US needs to learn to share and get along,
Across industries, there is reverential discussion as to listening closely and building off of user experience. Consider healthcare, where understanding the patient journey and patient desired outcomes are primary objectives for all members of the healthcare system.
Why is the military always a notable exception?
4
So, we blew it again. We went into Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban and now we are handing control of the country to...the Taliban. American soldiers and Afghans killed and wounded and billions spent for a dead end. No lessons learned from Vietnam.
252
@Ernesto Solis-Lugo Vietnam was closer to a real war. I know, I was an Air Force pilot during that war. Afghanistan and Iraq is and was an invasion and an occupation. Our troops are fighting civilians that will continue to fight the occupation forces generation after generation until the occupation ends and US troops go home. I totally support our troops and the dangers they live under day after day...but the policies of the US government are just a misguided now as they were during Vietnam.
29
@Ernesto Solis-Lugo
It's only a matter of time before the Taliban and their Wahhabist allies take back control of Afghanistan. But let's not pull another Syria-type exit, abandoning our allies.
The Taliban will round up and execute everyone they can find who collaborated with the Americans. The very least the U.S. could do before pulling out is evacuate those most vulnerable Afghans who have been cooperating.
14
@Ernesto Solis-Lugo Agreed, Ernesto. I'm a Vietnam vet and visiting Vietnam right now. That war as well the Afghanistan are a waste of lives and resources. Similarly, both unwinnable.
11
Thank you for giving these soldiers' voices a platform. Our soldiers accomplished our national objectives for the Afganistan invasion within a few weeks of entering the country. Ditto for our invasion of Iraq. Saddam is long gone, the weapons of mass destruction are long gone, but I am still hearing people complaining that Obama pulled out of Iraq leaving the country defenseless. There should be a military draft in our country. This seems like the only way the man (or woman) on the street will have enough skin in the game to do their duty and hold our government accountable for how it uses our milirary.
9
@Joe no one seems to recall that Obama pulled out of Iraq because the Iraqi government wouldn't grant remaining US forces immunity from prosecution, i.e they wanted us out and we obliged. Obviously, Iraqi forces weren't up to standing up to Isis. It's their country and they learned the hard way they still needed our help.
I agree. If we withdraw, the Taliban may take over and they may kill a few of the current ruling people if they resist, then things will calm down. Then, the people of Afghanistan should decide what to do and how to do. There is no need for America to try to create a society in our image with our blood and treasure. If the new government in any way supports terrorists, we can easily deal that situation, if it develops. But, they know better.
6
They don't call Afghanistan 'the graveyard of empires' for nothing.
From Alexander the Great through the British through the Russians through the Soviets through the Americans these fierce mountain ethnic sectarian tribal warriors have exemplified what one of the Taliban military leader commanders told one of his American counterparts 'You have the watches. We have the time'.
Or a Afghan father whose entire immediate family was killed in a accidental American airstrike in response to an American commander who told him that he was sorry who replied "What am I supposed to do with sorry?
Or the Afghan boys now men who have watched their fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles be terrorized by the American military invasion and occupation.
What is going on in Afghanistan is an ethnic sectarian civil war that has no military solution. Primarily based in the fact there is no country where the ethnic Pashtun that are base of the Taliban have no country where they are a majority. While the Pashtun are a 40% plurality of Afghans a majority of Pashtun live in Pakistan where they are only 15% of Pakistanis.
Moreover unlike Japan, Germany and South Korea there is little or no prospect that Afghanistan will ever become a Western style democracy or republic that is vital political socioeconomic asset for American interests and values.
Preventing Afghanistan from becoming a base for another 9/11 is all that can be reasonably expexted.
6
Never having been in the military maybe I don't get it, but vets are ail volunteers.
6
@John Unkamit They are not true volunteers. During the Vietnam war there was a draft. Getting rid of the draft was a way of tamping down resistance to a continual state of war (sending American soldiers into foreign lands). Today the pressure to join the military comes in multiple forms but one major form is economic. Many young men and women see the military as a way out of poverty. They are high school graduates without a viable skill or they see the GI benefits as a way to getting an education that can make them a living. There are reasons the military is made up of young people. They don't understand the cause of war or there are economic pressures and they don't think they are going to be wounded or killed. Hopefully most of us here don't want young people because they are volunteers to be sent off to a meaningless war to get killed.
6
I am an American volunteer. Let me fight and win!
@hd Oh yes we are true volunteers! The economy is good for most and Army Recruiting Command is having a very difficult time getting the volunteers needed to meet our global responsibilities. Comparing today to the Vietnam era is like comparing present day maneuver warfare to the Ancient Greek Phalanx. This is what we do. This is what we want to do. This is what I volunteered to do. We are not out of the woods yet and the threats from the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS and other groups are real. They started it and it will take us decades to finish it.
The Russians could not succeed yet we ignored it. 18 years later we are still trying to prove we are better. End it.
6
Hmm. We don’t need to create democracy and carry out elections. This is all very foreign to Afghanistan. What we need to do is destroy the Taliban, ISIS and AQ. Don’t build schools or roads or hospitals. Work with the true rulers of Afghanistan: The tribal leaders.
I guess they shoulda listened to me in the first place back in 01. Best thing I did, told my son not to go in the service. Never was our war to fight. Iraq was worse.
8
The good news is that we have the greatest chance to reduce our footprint in the Middle East under this president. Past presidents have failed to take the hard steps. Trump clearly has no problem doing so.
8
@Rick Spanier
Read Robert Caro's LBJ books, they are wonderful.
Or use the C-Span site to listen to discussions with Robert Caro.
Yes, LBJ knew Vietnam was unwinnable.
But his burning passion was the War on Poverty.
He knew that if he pulled out of Vietnam, the Establishment uproar would crash all War on Poverty programs... which were his reason for being.
Those years when LBJ was so anguished by the horrible choice forced on him, WOULD MAKE A WONDERFUL and ILLUMINATING PLAY!
Playwright, do it! please!
In understanding the centrality of the War on Poverty to LBJ, you need to know the circumstances of LBJ's youth, so well told in Caro's first LBJ book.
Certainly LBJ was not perfect, but he was impressive, and he tried heart and soul to make life better for the many.
1
Here I thought that we had learned our lesson in Vietnam. Afghanistan and Iraq and should have never been invaded in such a knee jerk reaction in the first place. In Iraq the country was criminally misled into the war by the President and vice President. Congress has to take back some of the powers for war it has allowed the Presidents to have. Give it up and bring the troops home, sorry but we lost again. I am more sorry about the lost lives on both sides.
7
The war with Afghanistan was about nation building. Why not it worked for Europe and Japan after WW2 didn't it? The left wing idealist in charge of it. Putting female fighter pilots in the Afghani military might sound good but not in a medieval culture. Forcing them to accept modern Western values just recently acceptable here was a big mistake and gave them another reason to fight.
BOTH parties have been wrong on this issue. Both sides scream bloody murder when Trump said he was going to pull troops out. None of the politicians in DC have children in this never ending war.
(I'm a combat veteran)
End this war NOW.
11
Why not argue for pulling the troops out of South Korea? Totalitarianism anywhere is a threat to freedom everywhere.
4
@Ice Rafter
Many in South Korea would like US troops out.
Do you really believe "Totalitarianism anywhere is a threat to freedom everywhere."
The US has routinely supported noxious dictators as long as they were submissive to US "national interests",
and worshipped unregulated capitalism.
American soldiers have been dying in Afghanistan for 18 years now. Anyone who opposes an immediate and complete withdrawal of American troops from Afghanistan must be made to explain just how many more decades they want American soldiers to continue dying in Afghanistan, and for what purpose.
5
Retrograde...yes, time to go! But, that said, the horrific sacrifices both in Afghanistan and Iraq will be stain on our historical foundation for many years ahead.
The politicians lost the was..not those who fought.
Afgh/2003-4; Iraq/2004-5
3
If you try to fight a war on the cheap, you lose.
If you fight the wrong enemy, you lose.
The Taliban are a Pakistani creation designed to keep a foot in the Afghan door. They get recruits, money, weapons, and ideology from Pakistan. So if you don't seal the border to Pakistan, the Taliban will resurge again and again.
But people who accept that the answer to a Saudi terrorist attack on the Twin Towers is to invade Iraq, will easily believe that those who hid Bin Laden are allies.
4
Endless war- another brainchild of chicken hawk Republicans: Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz et al. For 2000 years countries have tried to advance their agendas in Afghanistan and it got them nowhere. A good read is Flashman by George MacDonald Fraser.
7
NO! NO!! We must "spread democracy" and we will start a nuclear war if necessary to do so - Doc Strangelove is still in charge as he has been for a hundred years.
3
I feel like my comment won't be the most popular here, but the troops need to stay at this time. Personally I don't like how we've been in Afghanistan to having a presence in Iraq as long as we have, but I feel like it's necessary to keep the status quo of stability. I really wish we had a larger NATO, or a UN peace keeping force we've seen in places like Cyprus to Kashmir. Their purpose is to keep stability and prevent future situations that deteriorate the area. Personally I believe that is necessary in several hot spots in the Middle East to Southern Asia.
That said, everyone who wants to pull out has a valid point, but I am more concern of a power vacuum allowing past insurgent groups like the Taliban, or a future extremist group to seize power again. Or lets say Russia continues to expand their influence in a similar fashion after we pulled out backing the Kurds.
Sadly the world truly needs a leader like the US, or ideally NATO in my view, to counter China and Russia. I prefer NATO so the bulk of G-7 can take the lead over just the US. Yes, the US and other NATO nations haven't been perfect, and have made bad mistakes; however, do you really trust Putin or Xi to look out for the world's best interests? I don't, and in fact seeing Putin expanding more in the Middle East and getting Recep on board worries me in the long run. Similar to China's expanding role in Africa and where that might go.
3
I have sent my two sons to war a total of 7 tours. Now, my grandson is slated to go to the war in Afghanistan in March, 2020. I beg all members of Congress, and the president, to please end this madness of endless war. At 68, my heart cannot take anymore of this heartache. Please, I beg all of you in power, no more war: leave my grandson here to defend this country at home.
202
@Margaret Wasilewski
Your grandson choosing to participate in "this madness of endless war" is part of the problem.
If he really cares about his country, there are many other career choices that actually strengthen the US.
US military actions since Iraq War based on CIA lies, have weakened the US, made it less safe and the world more unstable.
Choosing to be a part of the military now, is actually choosing to be a part of weakening the US.
Sometime the US will have better leadership, and the military may have a mission that is defense, not unwinnable and most often illegal under international
law,offensive action all over the globe metastisizing hate and terrorism.
32
@Lucy Cooke Ordinary citizens volunteering to serve in the military are not the problem, and are not responsible for foreign policy. Every country needs people willing to serve. But we do not need every president to be willing to get them killed. There are no consequences for politicians, or those who mindlessly cheer on sending other people's kids to die, just because. There is nothing noble in our killing so many foreigners.
None of our wars in my lifetime have been worth fighting. Not one. so there are trillions wasted, and tens of thousands of our equals fed to slaughter for the egos of a few (not to mention citizens of other countries - for nothing! No thing whatsoever! Blame the real villains - those who send them to die! And those who vote for them to send our kids to die. That's who our real enemies are.
12
@Margaret Wasilewski Defend from whom?
7
Want to stop the wars? Bring back the draft--
306
Hi Steve. The rich and powerful will find ways to exempt their family members from being drafted. I remember student deferments, hardship deferments,etc. I turned 18 when the American war in Viet Nam was winding down. My draft lottery number was three hundred and something,
15
@steve koralishn Any redo of the draft must, of course, be free of exemptions. I would add that all wars must be “pay as you go” funded directly by a specific progressive tax; again, no exceptions.
33
@steve koralishn Totally agree. Policies will change very quickly.
13
The Onion, America's Finest News Source, said it best (in 2017!) with "Soldier Excited To Take Over Father’s Old Afghanistan Patrol Route".
9
Did you volunteer for your service?
Did you understand what could happen to you?
Thank you for your service.
People make fun of Donald Trump for his medical draft deferment. Of course, they ignore the fact that George w Bush avoided the same war by getting moved to the front of the line for the Texas Air Guard. Clinton never served, and it never entered Obama's mind to volunteer. John "bombs away" Bolton had better things to do. Mitt Romney's time was better spent being a missionary.....in France!!
Yet many of these other non servers were happy to send off troops to unfocused missions that were either misdirected, foolish, of without end. At least Trump has a memory of his own younger days, stupid wars, and the waste of blood and treasure that follows.
14
Between Afghanistan and Iraq, more than 4 trillion dollars will be wasted. 6000 US casualties, 20000 wounded soldiers.
More than a 500.000 -1.000000 Iraqis and Afghans have died since 2003.
Basically US wars of choice have had tremendous cost. The entire middle East has become a war zone since 2003. What does the US has to show for? Nothing.
Radical islam has grown faster since then. Back in 2001, there were less than 10.000 islamist terrorists around the world. Today, there are hundreds of thousands. Countries like Saudi Arabia that bankrolls and spread radical islam are considered close allies by people in Washington. Pakistan where most Taliban live freely and plot their attacks against US soldiers in Afghanistan has received more than $20 billion US aid since 9/11. Trump has sent US soldiers to protect Saudi Arabia, the country that has exported its radical interpretation of Islam all over the world.
15
We need to bring out troops home and stop trying to shove our way of life down the throats of every other country. China has stolen much of our intellectual property and has brought more people out of poverty than any nation in the history of the planet. They see theft that benefits their citizens as a positive act. Who are we to judge? Sending American troops to the Middle East with out the support of Congress is illegal and makes us look like a crazed killer that can't stop fighting. We are, or were, a better nation than that. Bring our troops home and alive.
8
"What if they gave a war, and nobody came?"
If the quote doesn't stir some memories, ask someone over 65.
Soldiers are not required to obey illegal orders. It's a pity the same doesn't hold for irrational orders.
When more soldiers are dying from PTSD-suicides than from combat, it's past time to stop.
Thank you Lyle Jeremy Rubin, Donald White, Arti Walker-Peddakotla, Danny Sjursen and Daniel L. Davis for your service. Thank you much more for publicly speaking up on behalf of all soldiers.
8
@Ralph Averill
"What if they gave a war, and nobody came?"
Good point. The way to implement it is not to refuse orders. The way to implement it is not join the military. It is a volunteer organization.
3
“Fifteen years from now, I don’t want my kid to die in the war that I went to.”
Indeed. One way is not to join the military.
6
I'm from a different era, but I was opposed to this fiasco of a war from the start. I could not see a win in this "Graveyard of Empires"
no matter how many troops we sent over there or how long we stayed, and I contend that this was another of those "Vietnam" wars that was easy to get into but no plans to get out.
The politicians that sent these young men to war in Afghanistan should hang their heads in shame. That goes for Iraq as well.
9
@USMC1954 I can't remember the last time a politician paid a political cost for sending troops into harm's way. All of the politicians, journalists, and foreign policy experts who were cheerleaders for the Iraq War are doing great professionally.
72
The politicians who send our troops into unwinnable, unending wars should be held accountable for the harm that they caused and not treated as respected elder statesmen. That includes, but is not limited to, Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney. Each and every one of them sent troops into harm's way knowing that their service and even their deaths wouldn't make a difference. Shame on all of them and on all who see them as "honored leaders" of country.
@Scott
Republican Amo Houghton, USMC, WWII veteran voted against the war in Iraq.
Those who served, know. But very few of today's politicians served in combat
That is the problem
1
War is unnecessary.
We could end it in a generation or two.
We would need to have a true international criminal court, one that holds all nations and their leaders to the same laws. Under that standard, Bush and Cheney would still be behind bars.
We would need to have the UN enforce international law, and make wars of aggression crimes, not just for a few African leaders, but for all nations.
Won't happen of course, because war is profitable, and because, without a draft, the kids of the rich don't have to fight and die...
When we pulled out of Vietnam a shocked nation swore it would learn the lessons and never again get enmeshed in insane wars.
Come back in a hundred years, and the Times will still be reporting the same headline...
Being a veteran is about trust, and it has almost always been trusting a lie, or trusting really, really incompetent leaders. I served in Vietnam, in the Marines, as did both of my brothers. I trusted JFK, but learned much later that he was as trapped by the war as I was.
No one is in charge but blind capitalistic greed and the love of power, and of course, hate of the poor and the non-white.
Hugh
6
I just read the 3 February 2019 editorial to which this piece links, "End the War in Afghanistan".
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/03/opinion/afghanistan-war.html
That editorial is 99.9 % about what is wrong and the need to end the war. The editorial has absolutely next to nothing about how to do it. Here are the only sentences that relate to solutions:
"Walking away from a war is not a strategy. But an orderly withdrawal of NATO forces can be organized and executed before the year is out and more lives are lost to a lost cause."
....The troops have fought bravely in Afghanistan. It’s time to bring them home."
This editorial seems to see an "orderly withdrawal" as a solution. I cannot imagine how that suggestion can be taken seriously.
Do you have any real suggestions, NYT?
As for the video, with all due respect to the veterans, their ranks included a Lt. Colonel, Major, Captain , Sergeant and Specialist.
Do veterans set policy? I did not hear a single suggestion from them apart from something like "things were bad before, they are bad now and they will be bad after we leave". Is that serious?
If the "plan" is just to say goodbye and pull out, then say so and do so. But these things have a way of exploding afterwards (e.g. Vietnam) and repercussions far beyond the "local".
3
@Joshua Schwartz
Pray tell, what, precisely, did Vietnam "explode" into? Like it is now one of our Asian trading partners?
Things were bad before, they are bad now, and they will be be bad later too, what is the point of staying? To argue otherwise deserves an incredulous, "seriously?"
Yes, the ranks span nearly entire chain of command in a brigade. Some of them can, will and already did run for office. Yes, veterans can indeed influence public policy. Even retired veterans in civilian life can act to influence policy. Or do you not understand our system of governance?
Why should NYT suggest a military operation to our military? Orderly withdrawal means exactly that, what is there not to understand? Let the experts figure out the operational details.
1
@LazyPoster The United States left North and South Vietnam. What happened then? What happened to South Vietnam and those who supported the US? I guess that means nothing as long as Vietnam is a trading partner today.
The NYT suggests solutions when it has them. If it does not then I guess it has none apart from the last one out turns off the lights.
1
The British had no luck trying to turn Afghanistan into colony, and we have not succeeded either. However, if we keep trying, we must assume that 15 years is just the start of the next 100. The USA would in fact need generations of families involved in the effort and children raised there speaking languages as a native speaker.
2
It won't be long before America is fighting another unwinnable war. When I was born the U.S. had won every major war it ever engaged in (perhaps a tie in 1812). Since then we have lost or tied every war - Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan (except Grenada - go America!). By electing lightweight Republicans like G.W. Bush and now Trump - Americans continue to prove themselves too imbecilic to change their losing ways. The military industrial complex is more powerful and entrenched than ever - and they need war to use up stocks so they can replenish as well as make new and improved weapons. China and Russia are happy to incite Cold War intrigues as they seek to expand territory. The Democrats are too cowardly to stand up to the Republican war machine (Hillary supported Iraq, Obama the Afghan Surge) fearing they would be called 'cut and run' or weak. Throw in the nuclear monkey wrench of climate change impoverishing millions more across the planet and driving mass emigrations towards places that don't want them - and the future is looking mighty dim.
5
For Veterans Day, let's celebrate by resolving to make fewer of them.
3
Trump wants to pull out our troops from Afghanistan.
As do many veterans and citizens.
Apparently the media war hawks and the liberal TDS do not mind sacrificing troops in that graveyard of empires, as long as it is not them or their children.
3
Of the “200,000” deployed overseas, all but a few thousand, at the most, are deployed in areas where they face any “danger” whatsoever - and most of them are Marine guards at US embassies and consulates.
But look at the effects - a thousand trainers in Syria protected the Kurds and the anti-ISIL/pro-democracy forces from Turkish, Russian and Syria’s own madman leader.
Pulling them out started yet another round of Turkish genocide and handed Syria to the Russians to do with as they wish.
Pulling a handful out of Afghanistan will hand the nation over to Islamic extremists without a framework preventing them from imposing their particular absolute view of al-Islam on a lot of far more-moderate people. Many of them were murdered in blood/drenched stadium shows the last time the “Taliban” was in charge - a religious organization we created to give the USSR, then attempting to “aid” the Afghan government a hard time.
The remainder are Navy sailors and pilots, shipped around wherever we want to project force.
I also remind today’s vets that, aside from some nearing retirement who got in involuntarily, enjoyed military life and stayed, all were volunteers from Day 1.
I can feel angered when those unwilling to fight are drafted.
But you folks could be with the Department of State after climbing the Diplomatic Ladder, or mostly out of danger with the Peace Corps.
You signed up to “kill, kill, kill” to quote Arlo Guthrie. You saw it as the proper way to serve your nation.
And USA stop arming the world. Too bad about big profits from war weapons. Let those cultures which like to fight do their fighting on their own, and we tend to our own business.
3
Imagine what we could have done with $5 Trillion in Iraq and Afghanistan if we would have followed the model we used in Germany and Japan? First, you stay for the long haul with a big footprint. Second, you invite families and kids to come over and live in big, sprawling bases. Finally, you hire every Iraqi and Afghani that you can find to build all the infrastructure you need to handle all those G.I’s and their families.
Patton’s Third Army may have won the war, but when General Lucius Clay built all those PX’s, he won the peace.
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@Walt Bruckner
We tried much of that.
In Iraq, the Pentagon brought multi-million dollar lobsters through KBR, repaved runways, built laundry services, and massive PXs for grunts like me. They even had salsa instructors flown into FOBs. The insurgents would drop Katyusha rockets and 81mm on the bases at any time. No family in their right mind, Iraqi or American, would be there for that pummeling. Then we drove out to the contractor sites where we paid Iraqis to build schools, water treatment plants, roads, and on and on. We got blown up over and over on the way to those sites. We hired translators. Still, we couldn't even get the power on to large sections by the end of the Surge. The Iraqis rightfully kicked us out of the country at the end of 2008. That "big footprint" we brought couldn't alter the political changes underway, the torture, the distrust, and history.
One of the grave lessons historians will take from these misadventures will be the Americans in leadership (political and military) and the aping voters who supported them who saw 9/11 as 1941.
21
@Walt Bruckner Or--crazy thought but stay with me--perhaps we could have spent the $5 trillion here at home?
5
@Walt Bruckner
Sounds great. BUT the ME is not Europe.
Europeans wanted the help. Europeans were ready and able to take on the jobs with our financial help as seen in the pictures of women picking up the stones from ruined buildings.
The ME has not stabilised since the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire, has ancient "tribal" wars going in every country and they do not a have a history or tradition of democracy.
We would all love to see the ME at peace and prosperous .... but that has to be they choice, not ours.
3
Thank you.
And pull them out of Syria as well. We have no business there.
4
When the Vietnam War was being fought, my mother said she would drive my brother (who was eligible for the draft) to Canada if he got drafted. She said "These politicians support wars and then expect other people to fight them. If they want endless wars, let these politicians enlist first and maybe the rest of us will follow their lead."
6
Those that don’t learn from History are destined to make the same mistakes, words of a wise man.
Britain, & Russia were beaten down by the Afghanis and left with their tails between their legs. The same thing is happening to us.
Trump and his ego won’t give up until he leaves office, hopefully in 2020.In the meantime, the cream of our youth are being killed.
3
Bush had no business going there in the first place.
130
@William Thomas
Unfortunately, it was just that - business - that brought us there, just as in Iraq.
7
@William Thomas That is not in the least bit true. Not a single bit.
Whether we should still be there or not is worth asking. And we shouldn't have been in Iraq. But not being in Afghanistan is basically rewriting history into a fiction and deciding we shouldn't have been there. Sorry.
4
@William Thomas
That is what happens when the reasons for going to war are lies and it seems America still did not learn from the Vietnam experience. The problem is for the minority who object, it results in a chastisement by the majority and especially the media who seem to love to support wars even though the reasons are unjustified.
10
Tough issue to be sure. Many are. But why stay in Syria if you quit Afghanistan? They are surely different cases, but the underlying considerations of us security are similar. It is insufficient to simply say we’ve been there too long. There must be a reason to believe our security won’t meaningfully deteriorate if we do. We might also consider the plight of those who’ve supported us if we leave, or is that irrelevant to some? We surely need a better policy but none has been found. Is that sufficient to justify withdrawal? If so explain why.
24
@rhporter — I served four years in the U.S. Army; just for starters, how many years did you serve? This way we will know if you’re an armchair general or someone who has actually had some skin in the game.
6
@Rhporter We stay in Syria to protect the oil fields. The United States left a power vacuum in Afghanistan when we helped the Mujahideen defeat the Soviets and are now reaping what was sown in that vacuum. Is it better that US forces are used as a peace keeping force to try to maintain stability in a region or that they are used as mercenaries to protect the economic interests of American corporations and Saudi Oil interests?
50
@William Perrigo, I believe every general in the military that recommends staying has served in Afghanistan. Rhporter was asking about the consequences of withdrawal. Those must be considered also. Everyone should be part of that discussion.
6
Once again let us acknowledge the 1953 coup engineered by us against the democratically elected Mossadegh in Iran and the seating of the Shah, so we could have the oil. So much for our love of democracy and the American way.
The US has been fighting wars in the Middle East for over 60 years. Afghanistan is just the latest. The dynamic of oil and the intrinsic profit to be made by war itself are tectonic forces that we the little people are powerless to stop.
So sadly, these veterans are going to be disappointed. If it is not Afghanistan, the next generation will be fighting in, oh I don't know, Iran. Or Yemen. Or Syria. Or Libya. Lots and lots of opportunities.
11
I suspect that the reason people are able to enlist at the tender age of 18 is because they are still too young to know what they are doing.
7
When 9/11 happened, I believed that there was a huge overreaction. Essentially, the attack was the work of international criminals, and there should have been a law enforcement response. Sure, the military could have played a part where necessary, but an international, law enforcement response would have avoided the long wars that may or may not have accomplished anything. I served in Iraq in 2003. My son was in grade school. Now he has served in Afghanistan. The Iraq War was clearly unnecessary and almost surely caused more harm than good. Afghanistan has dragged on forever, and as Sun Tzu said; "no nation ever benefited from a long war." It might be tempting to say that Trump's right, but Trump couples supposed withdrawl with redeployment elsewhere, weakened alliances, and no strategic plan. Yes, Afghanistan is going to be a disaster. It was a disaster before we ever went in. Trump is a disaster and will be a disaster. The only good thing about these wars are the patriotic country songs.
25
@Todd wasn't it John Kerry who said in 2004 that international terrorism (Taliban, Alquaida) was a policing problem, not a military one, and he was blasted for it?
@Todd We should not forget that the first attack upon the World Trade Center et. al. did not occur on 9/11/01. It happened in 1993 when six people were killed and more than 1000 were injured. That attack, whose motivations few Americans understood, was treated as the work of international criminals some of whom were pursued and eventually captured by law enforcement and intelligence officials. Unfortunately, this was followed eight years later by much more deadly attacks on the U.S. homeland.
Still, some people would pretend that a law enforcement only approach was the right response.
It is about time that we recognize that the world is changing. We can not contain the spread of chinese influence. Let the Chinese and the Russians take our place in the endless swamp and sink whole of the Middle East. Let the Chinese fight over oil and the spread of Radical Islam. Let them fall headfirst into the money pit.
Lets pull our military foot print back to the Americas and let a very wealthy Europe take responsibility for Europe. A joint European and US effort can aid Africa.
It is time we spent our money closer to home improving our infrastructure and fighting rising seas and climate change in our own front yard.
We need to invest our money in technologies that will improve our own wellbeing and massive military spending isn’t it.
18
Our number one problem in Afghanistan is lack of a coherent mission and objective. So we let the war machine continue to rage on because we can find the off switch.
In the early days the mission was simple to define - get bin Laden with some possible nation building on the side. Well, bin Laden escaped our grasped in Tora Bora. For the next 10 years, with help from Pakistan, he hid in Pakistan until his death in 2011.
Can anyone explain what objectives where achieved in Afghanistan since the death of bin Laden (in Pakistan!) ?
7
@HistoryRhymes
Helping defense contractors reach their quarterly earnings.
7
@HistoryRhymes Only a true neo-con can answer that. Ask Bolton. I think it rhymes with world domination of an American oligarchy.
@HistoryRhymes
Preventing ISIS or another successor to Al Qaeda from establishing a terrorist base.
It is troubling to read that so many rank and file soldiers support Trump. He avoided service through chicanery. He talks of bringing soldiers home, but when he does, it is an ignominious cut and run like in Syria. He sends others in to "protect the oil." After Viet Nam, it has only been Republican presidents who have sent troops into unending conflict. Is it only false bravado that appeals to them? How can it be so paradoxical?
6
@Scott
Obama dumped 21,000 more troops to Afghanistan, quadrupled the number of diplomats and aid workers, and increased civilian assistance by $2 billion from 2009 to 2010. Clinton jumped into a Somalian firestorm. Count the number of centrist Dems who supported the AUMF. Our foreign policy nosedives are bipartisan.
1
Interesting that today the NYT published this video along with letters written by men who fought in WWII in Italy.
We often go to war with a rah-rah, until the bodies and the maimed and the forever changed start coming home, when suddenly war doesn't look so noble, if it ever were. Only 16% of us were against going into Iraq in the first place.
A lesson to be learned is that things are a lot easier to destroy than to build, like out country. Another lesson is to know when enough is enough and leave, because as bad as leaving can be, it is often the best of many awful options.
An analogy is surgery: the best surgeons are superb at knowing when not operating is better than operating, and once operating, when to stop cutting and close.
Nobody should want to fight a war, but there are some we should fight. We need to know which ones.
5
"On this Armistice Day, it's important to remember that the US has nearly 800 military bases around the world and that US military spending is approximately that of the next eight biggest spending nations combined. Our military is the largest consumer of fossil fuels in the world and emits more carbon than many countries, while our profligate spending on weapons starves health care, education, housing and all manner of good things that a responsible government might pursue. It doesn't have to be that way."
Eisenhower predicted this development of the military industrial complex.
17
@Betsy Groth APRN He should know. He created it.
Aphganistan will revert back to the Taliban, regardless of what we do . As far as bringing troops home, Trump is shifting them to the Gulf and Iraq to apply 'maximum pressure' on Iran, and leaving some in Syria to steal their oil.
7
The Middle East, including Iraq and Afghanistan, is now in a state of war due primarily from the decision made by Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld to invade Iraq and skip finding those who actually planned and carried out 9/11. It was all a lie that brings us and the Middle East to this point. While the Middle East burns, Bush paints pictures of puppies.
36
@David Kannas correct. However, don't forget to add Libya to your list, courtesy of Clinton/Obama. Entire Saharan region - Mali, Niger, etc - flooded by Jihadists because the exporters of democracy didn't like a colorful dictator.
4
@David Kannas Do not forget our precious NEO-CONSe which is code for US War for Israeli hegemony over their conquer Palestinian and Syrian lands. The same creeps that got us into Iraq and screaming for invasion of Iran. But none of their children will be serving.
I'm O.K. with that. But let's make sure we keep spending $740 billion a year on the Department of War. After all, corporate America must still have its day.
10
None of these excursions (Viet Nam, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc etc.) are "wars" and the characterization as such does a disservice to military personnel who actually protected the US during actual wars.
The military has done zero to protect America since WWII. The "fighting them over there so we don't fight them over here" trope and the out-sized veneration of the military needs to cease.
22
@Chris My 2 sons and grandson are heroes! Your implication that our troops are anything less is agregious. Our military and their families have carried the weight of these wars for far too long. Yes, it is time to end these endless wars now!,
3
Trump makes a case for pulling us out of the wars, and he has begun to do it sort of.
But then he sends troops into Saudi Arabia- because" they pay for it" Then he sends troops to "guard the oil" from ISIS.
So Trump appears to be proposing a new business model for the US military, the largest mercenary force in the world.
42
The future outcome of our role in Afghanistan can best be viewed in the films of today’s Iraq. In reality the war there accomplished nothing and gave us the civil war being reported from those same streets today. Remember, it was Eisenhower who warned us of the “ military industrial complex.” I think he has been proven correct.
13
@Gordon Hastings Women bring new life into the world. Men kill this life. Tired of it. Fellow women, stand up and stop this insanity.
If we are to believe the experts, the ones with the most experience on the battlefield, we would have to support the Veterans' argument on pulling out of Afghanistan. The continuous war is nothing more than the military industrial complex and certain Congresspersons enriching themselves at the public trough. More importantly, they are doing it on the graves of heroes who gave their lives.
Enough is enough. Trump is 100% correct on ending these endless wars.
6
Why do we continue to live in fear of the Red Menace? Sooner or later overextended empires collapse. The USSR is an example of that, the same is happening to us. China will learn that lesson too. Start bringing our troops home now and divert a good portion of our Defense Budget to getting our domestic house in order, to include fully funding the programs needed by our Veterans. Pay attention to the biggest threats to our National Security and survival as a species; overpopulation and the resulting human induced climate change.
26
Glad to see this article. It represents a dramatic shift from 2016 when the paper was supporting HER, the pro-war Democratic candidate.
17
@James Sorry James, it was HIM, George Bush (and also Dick Cheney, ) who sent my boys to these endless wars... And now HIM, D.T. Sending my grandson to the same war....
8
@Margaret Wasilewski
No need to apologize. It was Bush/Cheney who sought the war, HER who voted to authorize it, and Bernie who voted against it. Portray those facts in any way you find convenient, but there is no disputing them.
5
I served in Vietnam in 1969. Three or four months in I realized that the American view of the war was a lost cause. Our country has allowed politicians and the military industrial complex to lead us into one no win war after another. Listening to the politicians and generals has not worked out well for our country or for the young who have been injured or lost their lives. The last real war meriting our involvement was WWII. I support our soldiers but we need their vigilance for real enemies and not these endless wars fought for reasons not in the interest of the average American citizen. Sadly the parties in the middle east have been fighting wars for thousands of years. We can not stop this and when we leave after expending untold treasure and lives, conditions will revert to the state prior to our involvement. We have spent our treasure on endless wars while China spends their money on infrastructure and manufacturing goods that they sale to us. We are allowing American businesses to move their companies offshore for cheap labor. We must not allow our country to get engaged in these endless wars. We cannot change the reality of the situations in these countries. We can change our engagement in endless wars and we need to leaders who see the need for that reality. We need to focus on our infrastructure and the challenge of world wide global warming, the real challenge for humanity.
64
@hd INDEED!!! I cringe when I hear the two popular phrases, "...for our countries freedom" and "they gave their lives for...." Men and women do not "give" their lives away in combat, their lives are torn away. And left behind is incredible grief, deep and unfillable holes in left behind wives, mothers, fathers and children. The conflicts we have engaged in do have some merit as, for example, the hunt for Bid Laden (sp?). But they all too easily morph into stupid, endless wars, sustained by unexamined assertions. Russia was intelligent enough to get out of Afghanistan-- would that we would as well.
10
@hd yeah, except South Korea. What a mistake, huh?
1
I served in both Iraq and Afghanistan as an Army lawyer. I returned from both tours more cynical and more liberal than when I deployed.
When I joined the military during the Cold War, the United States stood for something in the World. A beacon of hope, for liberty and freedom.
Our militarization of the world and our corporations' profiteering have been an evil. But our troops--our people and our core values--are good. And the world, including the good people of Afghanistan, need us.
If we start practicing what our nation's Founding Fathers' taught, namely, that governments are created to secure "life, liberty and happiness" for the People, we will do a whole lot better in our foreign policy. Veterans will then continue to be proud to have served for a noble cause and American ideals.
23
I marched in opposition to The Vietnam War. The Afghan war and The Iraq War yet now that these countries have been destroyed even further by us This protest veteran think it would be wrong to now to abandon them. Where is our morality? If we had given each Afghan $100,000 each in the beginning we would have saved money. Instead we just killed so many yet things are worse. They had a weapon we could never defeat, their poverty. No bridges to bomb. No buildings to destroy. Just farmers needing help.
31
On this Veterans Day let’s remember that in 2016 Donald Trump, with great fanfare, held a benefit rally for veterans. He raised about $2 million. And then he kept the money. Yep. Trump stole millions from our vets. How do I know that? He admitted it as part of the settlement of a lawsuit brought against what he did.
167
@Steve that needs to be published in the Vfw mag and the American legion mag too show the vets how he really feels about them. But it won’t happen which is why as a life member I won’t participate in either organization anymore
34
@Steve
Snopes gives this urban legend a "mixed" review.
What's True:
The money raised during a Donald Trump-hosted event for veterans was donated to the Donald J. Trump Foundation.
What's False:
Contrary to the story, the money was given to veterans' organizations and was not used for Trump's presidential campaign.
@Alex If you have $400 in the bank and rob the bank of $100 you then have $500 in your account. If you then give $100 to the bank tellers retirement fund ,you've still robbed their bank.The point is that Trump robbed the veterans' bank in the first place.In my book if you rob $100 from someone and then give it back to them as a display of how much you care for them..you've pulled off a very slick con.Wether the money came from the money the veterans' gave him or from the other $400 he'd already robbed is impossible to determine.
4
When we send people to fight and die for our nation it must mean something, if it does not we are wasting their service, we are cheapening their sacrifice. The peoples of that entire region of the world have demonstrated over hundreds of years, some 1,000 yrs, that they have no interest in peace. Their internal squabbles are more important than the welfare of their own people. We have no business being there. Pull out of Afghanistan, Iraq, the entire Middle East. Let the peoples of the region decide their own fate, they are the only ones who can. Come Home.
6
Speaking as a chastened veteran myself and as a reborn academic, the suppurating wounds of Afghanistan and Iraq show the value of an education. No one should join the military unless they fully comprehend how their political masters will use them and what form of foreign policy their government takes. If one agrees with both of the above, then, by all means, sign on the dotted line and be blessed with the best of luck. It is not enough, however, to be angered, naïve, and starry eyed with patriotism because there is a perception that the country has been greatly wronged when deeper political complexity stymies that particular view when the time is taken to study reality.
On this Armistice/Veterans Day, we are urged to remember the sacrifices made for us by previous generations. So, lest we forget, we must learn and absorb history so that we can remember with clarity and sagacity, leading to the obsolescence of war, instead of repeating miserable mistakes. There is no honourable, dutiful, end in a life wasted. There is no liberty in the intelligence of a smart bomb. There is no democracy in thousands of dead innocents. There is no future for a world in perpetual chaos no matter what the architects of conflict believe.
The military could be a wonderful place to learn restraint and humanity instead of how to be an Army of One.
38
@Marcus Brant Are you Canadian? I proudly served in Afghanistan with Canadians. The Canadian military has an excellent reputation for peace-keeping. Your country should be proud. And with the right intentions, a military can be a force for peace.
Our US military, our foreign policy and our country have become much too influenced by the "military industrial complex." We, especially our leaders, too often forget our core values and our humanity.
13
I'm all for bringing the troops home, but before we shift to a posture of nonintervention, let us contemplate what that will mean. Our "allies" -- Scandinavia, Western Europe, Israel, Egypt, the Philippines, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan -- will be left to face Russo-Chinese expansionism on their own. What consequences will that have?
6
@James Ribe We can keep our allies and still be there to back them up. Instead of maintaining military bases all over the place, we count on staging from the military bases of our allies if anything happens. Presumably those military bases will be empty because our allies will have their entire military in the field.
@James Ribe
Expansion is such a horrible investment as the US, Soviets, British, Romans, etc have found out. If the Russians and Chinese want in on that game, let them. The consequences of their expansion will be the same as for the US.: Bogged down. The developing countries take the money and do whatever the want with it.
1
@James Ribe
Intervene to preserve/protect democracy, not to create it.
1
You can't export "democracy" abroad if we don't practice it here. Why volunteer to fight the war? By not volunteering you are sending a vote of no confidence. None of our last three presidents have seen active duty. The present one missed out because of bone spurs, the second to last was lucky and the third to last spent his days in the National Guard flying (or not). All have great armchair courage...We need to elect leaders who have the courage to negotiate with our partners and our enemies. Why are we the world's policeman?
22
There is something called realities on the ground. And only those who live on the ground can change it. Nobody from outside can change it. America could not change the realities on the ground in Vietnam and could not change the realities on the ground in Iraq or Libya and it will never be able to change the realities on the ground in Afghanistan. With the best intentions we want to bring our democracy to many of these countries in the world but they have to discover themselves the need for a change and then ask for our help.
16
@Ralph Sorbris
This good argument gets even more complicated when we realize these wars are not about spreading democracy.
38
@Ralph Sorbris Looking at Vietnam now, for all intents and purposes a productive capitalist country (despite the "Peoples Republic" moniker) makes it even more painful to look back. The Vietnamese just wanted to be left alone, and once it happened, look at the result.
11
@Ralph Sorbris ...There is also something called a Moral Imperative which should govern all aspects of warfare. That was absent from our involvement in Vietnam and all subsequent military ventures. As a result we are now commemorating the loss of thousands of our brothers and sisters who suffered and died for no valid cause.
2
The various military supply and service companies of the US are making far too much money with the status quo of constant wars for withdrawal to be given any serious consideration. Thanks to Citizens United, their voices are being heard loud and clear by those in power in Washington.
61
Excellent point!
We could actually print in high school civics textbooks that all three branches of government are manipulated by the MIC.
4
It' 1972 all over again for those of us who lived through the Vietnam War. We'll negotiate a settlement with the Taliban, pull U.S. troops out of Afghanistan and it will be taken over by the insurgents just as North Vietnam was in 1975. When public sentiment no longer supports a stalemate which eats up blood and treasure on a daily basis it's all over. Did our politicians learn anything from the loss of 54,000 of our troops in Vietnam?
51
@trucklt Did you mean South Vietnam? We failed the Vietnamese in 1945 when the decision was made to let the French reoccupy their former southeast Asian colonies in 1945. The Chinese knew better than take on the Vietnamese who had kept them at pay for centuries. Our Domino Theory was flawed.
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@truckit. I agree with the gist of your comment. However, I think it’s important to note that although you obviously intended it with empathy, by using the term “54,000 of our troops” to describe the loss of U.S. military personnel in Vietnam, you adopt the formal device of substituting the word “troops” for “soldiers” — a device the government, media, and politicians routinely use to subtly mask the scale of individual human lives lost.
Thus, in my view the correct form for your rhetorical question is — did our government learn anything from the deaths of the 54,000 U.S. soldiers who were killed in Vietnam?
Moreover, in substance I think the question should be broader — did Americans learn anything from the deaths of the 54,000 U.S. soldiers who were killed in Vietnam?
Sadly, it is rather obvious they did not.
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@trucklt
"Did our politicians learn anything from the loss of 54,000 of our troops in Vietnam?"
They "learned" the same lesson of the Vietnam era leadership, ex post facto, as did that earlier generation: when you dive down a rat hole to avoid the charge from your knuckle dragging opposition that you were not John Wayne-tough enough on whoever the "enemy" of the moment was perceived to be, and that you might be "weak" and thus deserving of removal from office, that you might end up getting eaten by the rats.
LBJ, the second greatest domestic President of the 20th century, who feared that if he gave the conservatives a hammer to hit him with if he was not tough enough, who would then prevent him from having his Great Society, was destroyed by the Vietnam War.
Likewise was Richard Nixon's mania, who was not going to be the first President to loose a war, at least not until after his reelection, which lead to Watergate and his destruction.
The possible exception of this is the Cheney cabal that blatantly lied us into Iraq in an unjust war of aggression, that by the standards we supported at Nuremberg would make them war criminals.
Trump has no idea what he is talking about beyond the value his rantings may provide for good scenes and ratings for his Reality President TV Show.
And let us not forget the millions of "others" who were killed and maimed by all this over the past 50+ years.
Occupying a distant land, even at the invitation of a large segment of the population living there, in order to protect the tribe you support from the tribe you don't, always ends with the occupying force leaving. Usually after much grief and hardship is endured by the youth of that occupying empire in order to enact the pressing strategic imperatives of its, supposedly, learned leaders. Perhaps, it would be better to listen to those who have been left to actually do such herculean tasks, like those interviewed here, rather than those who seek ignore their pleas and continue throwing even more of their fellow citizens into their meat-grinding, Geo-political ambitions.
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What a painful idea, that blood and treasure have been squandered away. I remember well all the dissenting voices that opposed the war effort in the US after 9-11. There were MANY Americans warning of this exact outcome. Don’t ever forget that! Those dissenters were labeled as weak and un-American. Pro-war Americans were gleeful in their celebration of military might and violent destruction. I had to listen to people brag about American might as if it was all that mattered... as if nothing was learned from Vietnam. This outcome, now in 2019, is no surprise. It was foreseen by cautious and careful students of history. While I lay most of the blame at the feet of the G.W. Bush administration, every American that convinced themselves and others that Afghanistan and Iraq were going to transform into representative democracies with American-style values are also complicit. There’s no value to “I told you so!”. Let’s ACTUALLY respect veterans’ voices now and listen to what they are saying. If you’re not the one making the sacrifice then sit on your hands and let these folks do the talking.
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@Craig Byron:
Concur on the damnation of the G.W. Bush/Dick Cheney criminal enterprise that actuated a nonstrategic war in Iraq through fabricated evidence derived from the military industrial complex.
Why Iraq-theater veterans haven't called for Bush & Cheney's heads on a pike baffles me very day. Those political "leaders" were bought and paid for by Northrup-Grumman, Boeing, SAIC, and a longer list of war profiteers (and their subsidiaries), who should be fined 15 years of profits to cover veterans benefits. Who cares if they go out of business, they deserve it. Let their employees build windmills and bridges at half their high-multiplier salaries.
Nuts!
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@Craig Byron
Sure, GW Bush/Cheney are criminals. But let's not forget Obama's surge in Afghanistan. No innocent parties here.
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I remember waiting for the phone call that would send me to Afghanistan at the outset of the war. It was the first of four deployments to Afghanistan and subsequently Iraq. As a young officer I knew these were wars we could not win. The politics of Afghanistan and the middle east are so fractious and the history of war so long as to be incomprehensible to an American frame of reference. I told anyone I could, quietly, that we would never be able to leave these conflicts. Why couldn't our "leaders" see the same? I hope they were simply blinded by hubris, but as the wars drag on I have begun to suspect a more sinister motivation. Eisenhower knew the danger of the military industrial complex and I fear we are seeing his fears realized. It was simply my hubris that didn't let me see it when the wars were begun. It is inconceivable that Bush, et al did not foresee the quagmire on the horizon.
Bringing "Democracy" to regions that have been fighting since the dawn of time is impossible. We have wasted trillions and need to get out in an orderly fashion. As a veteran I also strongly support withdrawal as soon as possible.
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@Rob Kelly
Believing in the delusion that "bringing democracy" is any part of the reason for US military action, is a huge part of the problem.
"Bringing democracy" sounds so noble, but it is nothing more than an acceptable sounding cover for the US intention to dominate the world, doing destabilization and regime change to any country whose leaders don't support whatever the US determines is in its "national interest".
Making the world safe for capitalism is a prime reason for US military action, concern for democracy just a cover. Democratically elected governments most often put the well being of their citizens first, and often that conflicts with what the US wants... so off with their heads.
Iraq. Libya and Syria were Baathist countries.
Baathism is based on secular Arab nationalism, socialism, and is anti-imperialist... all ideas that the US would like to obliterate.
Gaddafi was planning to introduce a gold dinar – "a single African currency made from gold, a true sharing of the wealth."
That would not be welcomed by the power elite who responsible for controlling the world's central banks.
Iraq's Saddam Hussein's overthrow by the US was sealed when he announced Iraqi oil would be traded in euros, not dollars Hussein's idea would have strengthened the euro, but Gaddafi's idea would have strengthened all of Africa.
Afghanistan's location is deemed strategically important and the US intends to control it.
Democracy has nothing to do with US wars.
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@Lucy Cooke Morales won the election in Bolivia and there is no evidence whatsoever to support the US Government's claim that it was rigged. But Morales does not toady to multinational corporate interests so the US Government put together a military coup to get rid of him. So much for Democracy.
The American Empire controls the US Government but the Empire is not US. America is just another colony of the Empire.
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@Rob Kelly We have never brought democracy to anyone. The wars are fought to protect American companies and to enrich the war profiteers. In the meantime, we are losing our democracy at home. It's time we Americans hit the streets and demand release from the rich and connected who have turned our country into an oligarchy that bears no resemblance to the democratic republic we claim to be.
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Least we forget it was Afghanistan that served as the base of operation for the bombing of the world trade center and the pentagon. Yet on a deeper level it was really from Saudi Arabia that has supported extremism and made much of it possible. Dig a little deeper still and we find ultimately it was America's thirst for oil to feed our economy that ultimately drove us to be in a place we should never have been.
Dig even deeper however and ultimately we have to look to ourselves for our insatiable appetite for exploitation of others for our own ends. It's as true about our exportation of jobs to foreign countries and the cheap prices it brings as in China as it is for cheap sources of oil from a Middle East mired in hate.
The truth of the matter is the day we became a volunteer military is the day we began to sow the seeds of our demise. Like Rome before us the moment you start out sourcing your military from the citizens you might as well outsource your nation.
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@zb We are sacrificing our precious service men and women for the gas pump, and subjecting millions more civilian lives in the region. It's no fight for democracy. And back in the U.S., the ramifications, social and financial, are taking their toll and there have been very few assessments of the steep costs here, nevermind abroad. The devastation of this commitment is now deep and entrenched and will take decades to recover from---and some people never will. On this Veterans' Day, we should be honoring our troops with an end to this debacle and do all that we can to heal our nation starting with immense caretaking of those who have served, turning our attentions on reconstruction here. It's cruel and ironic that what started out as an attack on our shores by the murderous 9/11 interests has only stretched into self-inflicted wounds here at home (painful lifelong disabilities, family estrangements, homelessness, PTS, opioid addiction). And as for those in places we've traveled to engage in war using the flimsy excuse of 9/11? We should be making massive air drops of food, medicine overseas to help the civilians who've been so dangerously compromised by our oily aspirations. It's not civilians in oil-rich areas or their counterparts who've paid the ultimate price (Kurds, Yemeni... the list is long).
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@zb if you dig really deep you will find that the oil companies told the powers that be that if we could get a pipeline thru Afghanistan and out to a deep water port .... think Pakistan we could effectively control all of Russia’s oil and our govt didn’t pay attention but Russia did.... think about it
Ending the military engagement in Afghanistan unilaterally would be a tragic mistake. Look at what the precipitous withdrawal from Iraq brought the world, and Iraq unlike Afghanistan was a choice.
The other problem is neither Iraq nor Afghanistan were ever technically wars. They were military force which shielded the decision makers from having to explain and debate in public what was happening.
The use of military force doctrine needs to be clearly defined and agreed upon by the majority of congress at the least and at best as a constitutional amendment. Whether it’s military action in Afghanistan Ukraine (by Russia) or Iraq the ambiguity only serves to prolong the chaos and the blood shed. An act of military force should be confined by days not by months or over a decade in the case of Afghanistan. Unless we fix the way we engage with the our enemies, whether perceived or actual, ending the ‘war’ will only dig the graves for the next generation. While the memories are fresh and the wounds still raw let’s fix the problem so generations to come are spared the pain of our mistakes.
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@Allen J
Actually invading Afghanistan was a choice. There were a number of voices at the time that predicted it would turn into a quagmire.
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Thank you.
As an 18-year-old, my father saw front line service in World War II, was wounded and received a Purple Heart. And for the rest of his life, he spoke out against the endless wars of America. He spoke out against the Military-Industrial Complex and the warmongers getting rich from young soldiers' sacrifices.
We need climate action, healthcare for all and affordable education in this nation. Not more war.
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@Pseudonym Worth noting: We can have Medicare for All essentially for free if we just pay for it with equal cuts to the Pentagon budget. We'll still have a military more than strong enough to defend us (and we have nukes for God's sake, no one will EVER invade us as it would be suicide).
I am amazed that this isn't obvious to everyone.
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Good idea, let’s let Russia take over Ukraine, China invade Taiwan, Iran destroy Israel, North Korea blow up South Korea, the Taliban obliterate Afghanistan, and so on. If you want all that to happen, reduce our military spending and withdraw troops from those regions. And I thought the Democrats wanted troops to stay in Syria with the Kurds? You can’t be anti war but want to keep troops in Syria.
@Pseudonym
Many people and organizations, such as defense contractors, congressmen, senators and others earn a lot of money off of wars. We will be in Afghanistan for years to come, unfortunately.
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If the “war has not been worth fighting,” we need to seriously consider why it was undertaken in the first place.
To capture Osama bin Laden? That could have been done, as it ultimately was, through clandestine operations.
To punish the Taliban? That could have been done with ceaseless bombardment from afar and from the air until the Taliban relinquished power.
As with Vietnam, let us remember that without an indigenous fighting force willing to die for its freedom, we can never re-align a government of and for the people.
Which brings me to my final point: What is to become of the Afghans who put their lives on the line for the U.S. fighting forces? The convenient shortsighted answer is to abandon them and hope they survive.
But here’s hoping that the next time the New York Times and other major media outlets fall in line with government leaders like GW and Dick Cheney, they remember the Afghanistan war and those they left behind.
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@Tell the Truth
Sorry but "ceaseless bombardment from afar" isn't less war, just more of the same old war.
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@Tell the Truth
We need to provide asylum to all those who fought for their own country together with US troops. We know they will be killed when we pull our troops out - as we have seen in the horrible disaster of Irak. We must take responsibility for our military intervention mistakes and do the right thing.
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@Tell the Truth all reasons why the jury, in my mind, is still out when it comes to ranking the worst president. so far trump has done nothing to threaten the preeminence of George W. bush in this competition.
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The belief that the US would be "isolationist" if we didn't act as the world's police needs to be reexamined. The sovereignty of other nations is violated when we 'occupy'. And, in the case of the Middle East, our understanding of the dynamics of the conflicts within a country is often minimal.
Many of these countries, including Afghanistan, have experienced internal conflict for centuries. Islamic extremists will always exist in islamic theocracies. It's way past time to focus on our own problems and stop these virtue signaling intrusions into the affairs of other nations.
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@Stanley Gomez Let's not forget that the US had a lot of involvement in afghanistan becoming an islamic theocracy .
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@Z Would you elaborate? My impression was that Islam has been dominant in that nation for centuries.
In 1971 John Kerry gave a memorable speech to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Here are excerpts: "to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom... is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, & it's that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart...how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"There's no rational argument for having troops in the Middle East. None. Would you sacrifice your child for Afghanistan's freedom? The U.S. has been mired in the Middle East since the 1970s. What do we have to show for it? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nothing except the trillions of dollars we've wasted trying to solve this region's problems. Nothing except the thousands of American soldiers needlessly wounded, maimed, or killed. Nothing except the 900 billion we will spend on medical care & disability benefits for veterans who fought in the Middle East. And after all this wasted money & lives the region is as bad as it has ever been, worse. And the opposition's brilliant solution to this terrible ongoing tragedy is to waste more money, to put more boots on the ground, to put more American lives in harm's way. Am I the only one who finds these people revolting? It's an unwinnable war. We all know that. After 18 years it's time to admit the truth. We need to get out now, not next year, not next month, now.
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@Bill Brown
Afghanistan has had its freedom.....freedom to evolve as determined by those native to the location. When we try to impose our models and values on a people who prefer something else, it isn't freedom. Its an attempt to make the world safe for big corporations. Not going so well in Iraq. No Baghdad Disney World, or Hilton Desert Resort.
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@Bill Brown You say," What do we have to show for it? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nothing except the trillions of dollars we've wasted trying to solve this region's problems."
Isn't it odd? The powers keep saying that we can't fix, oh say, public education by just throwing more money at it. That argument seems to fade away when it comes time to keep throwing more money at war.
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@Edward We could have Medicare for All essentially for free if we just diverted the money spend on endless, pointless wars to get it.
We really could.
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Veterans for Peace has grown as our obviously unfocused and inconsistent military policy gets further away from the Constitution. Our servicemen should be able to know that their mission is supported by Congress and their fellow citizens. Support our troops. Bring them home now.
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