Conservative Catholics support Trump and oppose Francis. That's it in a nutshell.
190
What will happen to conservative Catholicism?
I thought it had transubstantiated to the Federalist Society, thence to the Federal Courts.
Work of God, much.
110
Or you could take T.S. Eliot's suggestion that the True Church is in the heart, where Francis spends most of his time.
106
Mathew 25:40: "what you do unto the least of them you do unto me."
Isn't this the summation of Jesus's message? Its exhortation exceeds every religious sects and and contains a message for all, no matter what sect or creed.
---An atheist.
100
The Bible explicitly condones slavery. Why should I care what the Catholic Church thinks about whether Church leaders can be married or not or female or not? The Bible is NOT a source of moral guidance and no one who believes that the Bible is a source of moral guidance is worth listening to. Morality is not something you learn because someone a couple of millennia ago said so.
87
There is yet another alternative, and it is the line of least resistance: Walking away from a church that places Christian garb on increasingly secular, and sometimes pagan, idols.
20
According to Douthat Cardinal Burke stated : “the Church’s teaching on subjects like the Indissolubility of marriage is supposed to be unchanging”. As a non-Catholic I have one question. “Why?”
43
Asking a Roman Catholic cleric about marriage is like asking a blind man what color you should paint your house.
109
Maybe a ”Conservative” Catholic, in these times. Maybe they are not really a Catholic, and are placing their ego and judgement above the Lord’s Will. Just saying.
41
Conservative catholicism? Good riddance! At least a modernized and improved interpretation gives people legitimate morality.
57
I'm hoping that by the time I get married, I'll be allowed be allowed to get married in a Catholic church by a Catholic priest even though I'm gay.
63
There's a word for one who opposes the Pope: Protestant
50
The idea that Church doctrine is unchanging is laughable to anyone who isn't a Baptist convert to The Holy Roman and Catholic Apostolic Church. Over the past 1700 or so years that we've had Roman Christendom, the faith has done nothing but change, albeit at a much slower scale than an individual human lifetime. The earliest Jesus movement was a form of Post-Temple Judaism which was based on small house communities. (That's who Paul was writing to). Then you have Nicea which changes everything. Then struggles between the popes and the monarchs over their limits of power. Then the formalization of the monastic orders. and so on and so on. The Church changes but at its own pace. Remember it's one of two institutions on the earth which have existed continuously for two thousand years (The other being Chinese Characters.). Things gone change, folks. You gotta see the Church at the level of the Longue Duree.
I see what Francis is doing as a continuation of the fiery homily of Antonio de Montesinos on the Fourth Sunday of Advent 1511 which should be marked as a Global Holiday celebrating the birth of human rights rooted in the suffering of the Indigenous Peoples of the New World. That was 508 years ago. The Church moves slowly.
61
I don’t get it. Much of the groundwork for current discussions about married priests was laid by conservatives. John Paul II created the Pastoral Provision allowing married Episcopal priests to be ordained, then Benedict established Ordinariates to solidify the practice. Why all this fussing about the possibility of ordaining lifelong Catholics when the church has allowed the same for converts since the 1980s? And why oppose accommodation for the conditions of the desperately poor Pan-Amazon region but not those of privileged suburban Protestants?
32
It’s difficult to get very excited about clusters of Catholic clerics, with not enough to do, wringing their hands about whose interpretation of the Gospels rings most true. Any reading of the Bible depicts a Christ who is filled with love, compassion, fairness and justice—hardly the message of the conservative branch of the priesthood.
These may be angry men who have given up marriage, sex, and property ownership, among other worldly things, and resent anyone who has free access to these worldly pleasures, and I suspect that they are the ultra conservative priests who want to control their parishioners. All that time on their hands leads to a focus on words not so much actions.
46
The schism happened a long long time ago. It’s called the Church of England. I am a lapsed Episcopalian, a Sea of Faith atheist really, but I have to say I am proud of the advances my former church has made since I left it.
20
Douthat complains that Pope Francis is departing from the teachings of the church. Yet, haven't the teachings of the church always been established, interpreted, and amended by Popes of different eras? The problem is that Mr. Douthat recognizes the teachings of "the church" when they comport with his stagnant and narrow views; and he will reject any and all church teachings, from whatever age, that don't comport with his indoctrinated view of the way things should be. Dangerous thinking.
57
I would like to recommend a book to Mr. Douthat. It’s “Rome Has Spoken . . .: A Guide to Forgotten Papal Statements, and How They Have Changed Through the Centuries,” by Maureen Fiedler and Linda Rabben. It’s available online.
When it was published in 1998, I thought it would cause a sensation, but it sank like a stone. Absolutely no one reviewed it. Both conservatives and progressives were terrorized by it, since it provided much evidence that central teachings, not just by popes but by synods and other official bodies, on very important matters of faith and morals have changed radically over the centuries.
It’s worth another look.
47
Some years back I was deeply attracted by the thought of converting to Roman Catholicism (I was a High Church Episcopalian). I was heartened by the election of Francis to the Papacy and felt that I would be at home in a church under his guidance. But the person of Cardinal Burke and his continuing influence gave me pause and, ultimately, made me decide to remain where I was. Your column convinces me this is still the correct choice for me.
31
"But this implies that, in effect, the pope could lead a schism, even though schism by definition involves breaking with the pope." Arguing 'angels on a pinhead' versus simply living the Beatitudes.
29
As a practicing Catholic, one who returned to the Church after many disheartened years away from it, I am one more than hopeful that conservative Catholicism quietly dies on the vine.
What has a conservative Church brought us? An entrenched power structure that inspired everything from the Inquisition to the coverup of pedophilia within its ranks.
I am proud to be a part of a Church that opens its doors to ALL. I am proud to be part of a Church that strives to serve the poor and those downtrodden by oppressive regimes. I am proud to be part of a Church that would follow its nuns to go where almost no one else will to serve the least of our brethren.
Mr. Douthat, as a practicing Catholic, I am so grateful for not only what Pope Francis has done, but for what he HOPES to do. And the sooner that the last vestiges of the conservative Church retire, die, or simply leave, the sooner that the light of possibility for the Church will truly shine.
73
Having been raised Catholic, I went to Catholic schools, was an alter boy, choir boy and the complete package. I fell away from the Church a very long time ago with no regrets.
Conservative or liberal Catholicism, it doesn't matter. All the arcane dogma, rituals and belief in miracles is just mind control.
36
The church has not been “corrupted and compromised by modernity.” It has been corrupted by men who place image above protecting children; who would rather deny people the sacraments rather than have the sacraments administered by women or married men; who would selectively deny communion to some sinnners but not others. We do need a split — so that contemporary Catholics can be part of a loving, transparent, non-discriminatory church.
48
Society as a whole is moving away from the patriarchal strictures typical of the conservatives. The church must either evolve or die. It's looking like the evolution may be too slow to save it.
27
So much of what seems to divide the Church focuses on women, and demands of the laity’s obedience to edicts from men - very opulent men at that, if you study the photograph. Abortion and contraception aside, why would any of the male clergy object to the ordination of women religious at least to the diaconate? It’s not the women religious who have shaken the Church to its foundation with the pedophilia scandal and its cover up, or its money laundering, or this lavish lifestyles at the expense of the laity. Princes of the Church, indeed. The Church’s male hierarchy should get down on their knees and praise God for the example of kindness and devotion of the women religious, who are among the only threads that are holding the Church together.
73
As far as I am concerned any religion that segregates women as second class citizens can’t disappear quick enough. These “conservative Catholics” will be the death of what they seem to love so much. Basically this religion is all about old men having way too much power and not understanding that times have changed and they are being left behind.
54
I was raised Catholic went to Catholic school taught by the famous Sisters of Charity whose claim to fame was showing no mercy to kids and I mean kids. Interesting a teacher was arrested in Texas the other day for punching a student. The Sisters enjoyed beating my left hand till it bleed each day with a ruler and others got their heads smashed into the blackboards. Most parents did nothing in the same way many sided with priests when they were caught in sex crimes against children. Not just the Catholic Church but other religions have been created by humans to provide cover for their greed (yes, I look at the wealth of the church) and power once just has to look in the 29th Century at Franco in Spain and Pope Pius defenders of the butchery. I left the church and have never looked back I used to be an altar boy and one year had the job of carrying the crown for the Virgin Mary (always did enjoy the story of the virgin birth and overlooked fact that Jesus had siblings). Pope John Paul II met once a week with his CIA handler and now I look at what Poland has become thanks to him. Began leaving the church when a priest when i was in the Marines told me and my men to kill "commies for Christ." Did not dawn on him a large number he told us to kill were Catholics since Vietnam was a French colony. The church whether it moves it beliefs or not is on the downcline as other religious groups no meaning in the 21st Century except for money, greed and power. Jim Trautman
29
Marriage, divorce, celibacy, homosexuality, abortion . . . Are there any discussions among the priests that are NOT about sex and gender? What kind of religion is this?
45
Ross, I do like you, but please get terms straight. There are essentially three major branches in Catholicism right now, paralleling in some (not all) respects the three major branches of Judaism:
Liberals, who are modernists. (And it's important to understand that modernism is a condemned heresy.) Modernists include clergy, of course, and laity.
Conservatives, who march lock-step with whatever the current governance is in the Church. External obedience to the current Church -- including the modernistic, post-V2 version of Catholicism -- is the most important thing to them. It's important to understand that conservatives are not reformers.
Traditionalists, who reject modernism and promote restoration. This is actually the most "radical" movement in the Church right now. Burke may be on the fringes of it, and tolerated more than outright modernists are, but he is by no means a hard-core trad. Possibly the only true trad among the hierarchy at present is Bishop Athanasius Schneider. The other trads who are ordained men are filling traditionalist seminaries and are in high demand in many parishes, especially in the States. There is a hunger for a tradition among the laity (not "custom" or quaintness but what is known as Sacred Tradition), which is why trad priests, especially those belonging to apostolates like SSPX, FSSP, and ICKSP are in such high demand. It's because they're all committed to the restoration of the traditional Latin Mass and sacraments.
5
Last New Year's day, I sat through another soul deadening sermon in my parish church of 45 years and said "no more." The next Sunday I was in the pew of a church staffed by Franciscans, that is unashamedly promoters of Vatican II and open to all comers----straight, gay, married, divorced, black, brown, white----all comers. I wish I had done this years ago.
I had to decide was it the Catholic Faith or the Catholic Church that had my allegiance. I decided it was the Faith Jesus preached and the life He modeled in the Gospels, and not the Church--cultural traditions put in place by a paternlistic self selected clergy to make sure that everybody knew their place, and stayed in their place.
My faith teaches me compassion for all my fellowman, and instructs me to use my best efforts to eleviate suffering, wherever I find it. My faith teaches me to reach out to the world and be a part of it.
The Church teaches me that I must sit in judgment and shun those who have had an abortion, who are gender other or who have removed themselves from a dysfunctional marriage. My Church teaches me to worry about the rules and my adherence to those rules, and to look inward, and always to defer to the clergy.
I chose Faith over Church. You and the other "traditionalists" are welcome to the sclerotic institution that the "Church" has become.
As for me, my Faith is no longe moribund but is alive. I now am a part of a community that lives out the true Gospel message of love and forgiveness.
52
Among many other glaring offenses, I can't get past the fact that my daughter could never be an ordained priest in the Catholic church. Deal Breaker. So grotesquely archaic and backwards. The conservative movement in the Catholic church needs to die a quick death and get with the 21st century. Eliminate the misogyny, eliminate the homophobia. What are you thinking?
30
The Pope is infallible.
The Pope is infallible, unless....
14
The world will continue to move forward with or wtihout the Catholic Church, so ya gotta decide: "Do you want to come along?" or would you prefer to become irrelevant? (I say this realizing the insidious creep of corrupt and racist leaders worldwide, but that is not what Jesus wants for us.)
7
I was raised and shaped by the Church, educated through high school in Catholic schools (where I was encouraged by forward-thinking nuns to analyze and question) and taught for 8 years in a Catholic high school. Thanks to this solid education, I began to question why, as a woman, I had no say in the decisions that affected my life profoundly--still true to this day.
The Catholic Church does not value my mind, my intelligence or my capacity for decision-making. So I do not value the Catholic Church, though I do cherish the traditions and the liturgies which nurtured me in my formative years.
27
You really don’t get it, do you?
Conservative Catholics are now largely bigoted, xenophobic, nationalist, wealth focused, and, at least in the US, are far more tribally focused on gun rights, corporate profits, repression of women, and the LGBTQ community.
And then, of course, there’s abortion: that bizarre world where the unborn are God’s jewels right up until they are born - and then they become loathsome parasites, sucking the resources of the wealthy!
Funny how the ones truly trying to emulate Christ, and work for the Poor, Marginalized, and Forgotten, are the ones who have the least problems with the current Pope...
Many Conservative Catholics may well want to consider becoming decent human beings first, before they start worrying about where they fall on the Catholic spectrum.
(From a former Catholic choirboy)
57
Schisms happen. It's why there is an Orthodox Church and a Roman Catholic Church. It's why there was a Reformation. Why not another Church for conservative Catholicism?
I can't help but think that conservative Catholics in power today are unwilling to break away because mainly because their parishes would be mainly in the Third World, where they money isn't, rather than the First one.
16
"The importance of that waiting is the only definite conclusion that I can draw from the whole mess... and a reason to embrace T.S. Eliot’s poetic admonition: There is yet faith, but the faith and the hope and the love are all in the waiting."
Right. In the waiting for The Second Coming. Which will be never.
One only hopes that conservative Catholicism meets the same fate as all organized religions -- extinction.
11
What some Catholics see as "unchanging doctrine" is actually the accumulation of more than a millenium of mumbo-jumbo built up for he expedience of a European mini-power. Celibacy:great way to keep the kingdom from being kept whole without heirs, etc, etc. Any relationship to the teachings of Christ have been lost.
14
The government is not supposed to establish a religion; if this does not mean favoring one over another then the prohibition is meaningless. When the government decides which religions deserve a tax break as a nonprofit such that they don't pay property taxes, we are supporting that religion. If government believes that some religions are false as declared by some other religions, the government might deny them nonprofit status.
4
As of last month, Francis has appointed over 50% of the current cardinals. And he's not done. So, his progressive legacy will continue. On the other hand, growth Catholicism is declining of flat in the Americas and Europe, while growing over 2% a year in Africa and over 1% in Asia. With nearly 1.3 billion Catholics worldwide out of a total population of 7.5 billion, the church will be a significant force for decades to come.
The question going forward, however, is will the progressive legacy of Francis and the more progressive Catholics in Europe and the Americas dominate, or with growth among conservatives in Africa and Asia bolster a more traditional direction.
Despite growth of nationalism here and there, the world has grown more progressive over the last century. It would seem that trend is also in the Catholic church and will continue.
4
It is kind of funny to remember when Catholic conservatives considered the Pope infallible and themselves soldiers of the Pope. Now we learn that that was true only when they liked what the Pope was saying.
There have always been disputes in the Catholic Church about doctrine, conventions and the rest, and there has always been change. I find it difficult to believe that any Catholic would find Francis a worst Christian than his predecessors. Beyond the changes he has pushed on some traditions, he has also introduced new urgent topics to the Catholic cause, such as the environment. Why aren't the conservatives fighting fot the environment, since it's now a key Catholic cause and is not in contradiction to any previous position? Oh, right! It's because it has never really been about following the Pope, but about their particular brand of religion.
34
No Ross, the church isn't corrupted and compromised by modernity. Rather, it is longstanding fealty to unreflective dogmas. Kudos to Francis for recognizing this, and bringing light .. to where there has been so much darkness .. for so long.
22
Life began on earth around 4 billion years ago and humans are a product of biochemical evolution. The ideas that there is any kind of deity creating and controlling things or that there is life after death are nonsense, and it's time to stop pretending otherwise. Every culture has invented gods and an afterlife of some sort and there is always a class of people who claim they can interpret the gods or understand what they want and explain it to the masses or perhaps guarantee a spot in the afterlife. It's always amusing to read about these self important people babbling away in such a sophisticated intellectual manner when magical thinking underlies their beliefs and there is no truth in much of what they say.
22
@niner5bravo2delta
I am a profound believer in science including evolution at all levels of the cosmos. It provides the richest and most satisfying system of explanation for the world we experience, including leaving things open for all the things we don’t yet know, an inherently vast and unmeasurable domain; in other words, relying on science I feel deep comfort and balance in being agnostic.
I also recognize the universality among human beings of what we call “spiritual” experiences, that these are often among the most profound experiences people report having, and that they play powerful roles in human identity, values, cooperation and conflict. And that science has not yet developed the tools to account for or explain this quintessentially subjective, interior domain, or how it can sometimes lead to wisdom and enlightenment; the methods of our current science may not even entirely apply.
I reject any absolute truth or authority claimed for any and all of the mythologies, theologies, belief systems, and institutions human imagination and language have devised to try to capture, reproduce, or channel these transcendent visions, feelings, and intuitions. I also reject the jejune, condescending, dismissive, “amus[ed]” attitude your comment expresses. Your frustration with religious dismissal of science can’t justify scientific disrespect toward religion. For one thing, science doesn’t know enough to warrant it. For another, two wrongs don’t make a right. Be respectful.
13
Heavy stuff, Ross. For those in need of a bit of entertainment, just google photos of Cardinal Burke . . . he certainly enjoys his medieval wardrobe that accompanies his position within the Church . . . little wonder that Burke looks upon Jesuit simplicity and commitment to The Gospel Message as a threat to the institutional Church and its powers.
32
Just reaD Ross's interview with Cardinal Burke.
It gives us even more of an idea how far Ross will take things. How much he will justify and go along with. At this point it is still mainly hot air. Burke is the genuine article. He means it means it. And has actual power to harm and destroy and stigmatize.
8
The doctrine of Celibacy of the Clergy - was that the teaching of Jesus? If not, how could it possibly be a conservative position to insist upon it?
19
I don't think Pope Francis wants to change Catholic doctrine. I think he is just trying to change the focus to problems that are more significant to this day and age, like extreme poverty, rather than spend all his papacy nitpicking about purity. These are messy times.
19
I am from Québec, a Canadian province that, 60 years ago, was controlled with an iron fist by a strict, arch-conservative Catholic clergy that (with the help of the provincial government) imposed censorship of movies, theatre and books, fought against women’s suffrage, forced them to have as many children as they could and blocked all attempts at modernization. In the sixties, Quebecers suddenly had enough: we massively turned away from the Church and embraced a whole new set of values. Today, Québec is a secular society, churches are empty and most young Quebecers have virtually no religious education.
The mere mention of « Conservative Catholicism » makes me cringe...
All this to say: if the church does not evolve with the times, it will become more and more irrelevant.
And don’t get me started on the vows of celibacy, an abomination against nature that has led to the disgusting plague of child abuse in the Catholic Church. We’ve had tons of cases here.
If the Vatican can’t understand this, it doesn’t deserve to survive.
51
All I can say is about time the church changes! As a lapsed Catholic who rejoined once Francis was elected, this change can’t come soon enough.
15
Conservative, traditional, liberal, progressive, regardless of his leanings, every Pope has been the head of a church that actively protected men who abused, assaulted, and raped children.
Bernard Law. Those two words prove that the highest level of the church is behind the policy of shielding sexual predators. When Law's career of supervising the sexual abuse of children was uncovered, the church relocated Law to the Vatican, where he spent the rest of his life in luxury, beyond the reach of civil law.
Whichever faction wins control of the Catholic Church, let us hope that soon after winning, the victor also succumbs to its injuries.
9
This morning’s headline on CNN: “Priest Arrested After 11-Year Old Girl Records Herself Being Molested.”
Until the shameful crisis of child abuse is fully addressed, everything else is just a distraction. Russ, your concerns matter no more than the arrangement of silverware on the bishop’s table.
25
Without the fresh air of Francis, the Catholic Church will die
17
Back when John Paul and Benedict were popes, any critique of their papacy or views from more liberal quarters within the church were dismissed: You don't challenge the pope, they'd be told.
Since Francis came in that's pretty much flown out the window. The conservative faction within Catholicism is vocal and insistent.
Turns out conservatives are the same in matters of politics and religion. "Sit down and be quiet when I'm charge," but they won't shut up when someone else is.
19
The usual hipocracy of the right. What the Republican's tolerate from Trump wouldn't have been from Obama.
13
At about the age of 9 or 10, I decided that all of this business being foisted upon me in Sunday School and Wednesday Afternoon Released-Time Religious Instruction in connection with the Church's teachings, was just pure silliness, and I stop listening, and then I stopped going. This had nothing to do with God, only with the Church. It was engendered in me by things like:
1) When I asked about it, being informed by a nun that, "Of course Jesus wasn't Jewish. Jesus was a Catholic!"
2) Only Catholics go to heaven (my dad being Protestant, really had issues with that one.)
3) Learning about all kinds of Old Testament stories without ever once hearing that the people described in them were Jewish; the words "Jewish" and "Jew" were simply never mentioned, so that we were, I guess, expected to believe that they were all Christians, even though Christ was still a thousand or more years in their future.
4) You could burn in Hell for unconfessed eating of meat on Friday, but if Hitler confessed his mass murder and was forgiven, he would go to Heaven.
That's what we were taught!
Of course, that was 70 to 75 years ago, and maybe Church teaching has changed, or at least the nuns teaching it are a little more religiously brighter now, but I doubt true Catholic belief in such things has changed very much. The point is that the arguments back and forth as to what is settled theology in the Church remains in my mind pure silliness, and I really don't care how all of this turns out.
12
I nearly always find douthat a reasonable and reasoned writer, expect when it comes to his brand of Catholicism. He holds the convert's typical zeal for rules and regulations, fiats from the Curia, that have little to do with the Gospels. I know this is a fruatrating time for Church tradtionalists, but Catholic progressives have had to wait far longer, watching as St. John Paul II reversed much of Vatican II and, along with fellow-traveller Pope Benedict, appointed traditionalist bishops who still control the US church. Francis is not acting alone: the synod on the Amazon was, afterall, a synod, expressing the will of bishops in a vast region where Catholicism is both growing and struggling. Cardinal Burke -- who fashions himself a government-exile -- and other traditionalists would never have tolerated a progressive version of themselves under the previous two popes. (Indeed, those popes minimized progressive priestly orders like the Jesuits, and went after US nuns.) Again, I understand Duothat's frustration. But his continuing focus on "schism" is not well-reasoned. I expect more from him.
11
I’m not a Catholic, but it seems to me that very few people enter the church willingly, and those who wake up inside it leave as soon as they can.
So the internal conflicts must be taking place amongst the remainers, groups people who at some level “truly believe”.
However, religious beliefs come ultimately from instruction and acceptance, as opposed to evidence and reason. There is very little chance of resolving such conflicts through ordinary argument. In the end, it will boil down to which group has the more charismatic leader.
8
Whoa there, Ross. Are you saying that conservative Catholics believe in obedience to the church hierarchy only when the pope is issuing edicts with which they already agree? That's the kind of obedience anyone can manage.
14
I always read Ross Douthat because he's a good writer and I am fascinated to see how many ways he can spin his defense of doctrinal conservatism--as if it would be worth something if only he pushes it hard enough. As far as I can see, this way of thinking is the polar opposite of what Jesus taught.
16
Amazing stuff. History is in constant motion, but human nature changes very little. We argue over ideas and try to brand the other side with the worst words that we can think of, all the while they (almost always) try to do the same to us. But, for once, I think Douthat has said something wise.
1
What is being "conserved" by "Conservative Catholicism" other than its power structure?
If it is heresy to suggest allowing priests, for example, to express their sexuality within the context of the monogamous relationships that God has ordained, then why was Jesus even necessary?
After fasting for forty days, Jesus, who was starving, was tempted by three things: (1) bread or temptations of the flesh, (2) doctrine or temptations of the mind, and (3) power or temptations of the spirit.
The Catholic Church and, in particular, conservative Catholics, as well as conservative Evangelicals, have fallen victim to all three temptations: (1) enjoying the creature comforts of their positions at the expense of their members, (2) believing they embody God's word instead of acknowledging their human frailty, and (3) insisting only they provide the path to salvation when spiritual fulfillment is always a journey and never a destination.
As they were leaving the Temple in Jerusalem and he saw how awe-struck were his disciples, Jesus it is said turned to them and said, "Not one stone here will be left on another -- everyone will be toppled."
In other words, he was saying, "Sometimes you have to tear down a church to its very foundations and start from scratch."
Perhaps it is time for churches which have lost their way to be torn down to their very foundations and rebuilt, for which we should rejoice, including those who try to follow the teachings of Nazarean Rabbi, not the Pope.
13
When humans try to figure out the thoughts of God, they end with the thoughts of humans. That is why no religious or any other permanent unchanging doctrine can ever be the last word. We are left with trying to do philosophy as best we can and hope we get it mostly right for living with real people in a real, changing world.
6
To Pisa! A Council to elect a new Pope! It worked out great in 1409.
1
The picture at the top of the article, of Raymond Burke leading an anti abortion march in Rome tells us all we need to know about him. The issue of abortion is one that only involves women, yet the march appears to all men. Why any woman would listen to what he says is a mystery to me.
32
The turn to conservative orthodoxy in religion as in politics is always associated with a burden of fear. Fear of death, fear of freedom, fear of sex, fear of change, fear of loss of status, fear of emancipated women. In some cases this is a result of childhood brainwashing but there is also likely a personality type that will always be with us.
19
I was educated by, among others, fiercely independent French nuns, and Jesuit priests. This was especially beneficial while coming of age in the 1960s. My God given free will, my formal legal education, and the Beatitudes guide my life. I concern myself not at all with the infighting of the foolish.
307
Without the nuns the church would have crumbled long ago. Now their numbers are dwindling.
38
I only have to look to Ireland to see the damage wrought upon a people by the all seeing, controlling and powerful Catholic church. Even when it comes to sanctioning murder and abuse (the Laundries and orphanages).
I sincerely hope the more conservative/traditionalist elements, the excuse makers, the accommodators of serial abuse are quietly allowed to fade into history, which is more than they deserve.
I have little faith that it will happen.
10
@Applecounty The current decline of the Catholic chuch, for better or worse, seems to imply that the element of force and social control that forced people to be Catholic was the key reason many of them were Catholic.
5
Ross,
Despite your zealotry as a convert, take some advice from a cradle Catholic: stop trying to be more Catholic than the pope. Stop fighting doctrinal wars which only divide and exclude. Try being just a Catholic, not a conservative Catholic. If, as you perform the Examen of Conscience, you discover that all you are doing (which is supposedly for the Greater Glory of Christ) is denying the sacraments to the would-be faithful and turning sinners away from Reconciliation with Christ and Communion with His Church, then what are you really accomplishing? Jesus came to bring sinners back to God. That's the purpose of the sacrifice of the Cross and the mission of the Church. Let the doors be open to all.
28
What would Jesus say and do?
The unique message of Christianity is love and tolerance of you fellow man, not the vengeful morality of the Old Testament.
The Counter-Reformation was best defended by the Jesuits and Franciscans than the Inquisition. Note the Francis name.
Too many "Christians" are hypocrites, which is why religion is declining in rich countries.
Abortion is evil, just as war and self defense, but sometimes the lesser of evils. Women have a right to their own morality.
11
Think a little more ink should have been given to what is deemed conservative. Are they folks pining away for pre-Vatican II? Are they affiliates of Mel Gibson?
And then there is the question of how much such "conservatives" have gotten themselves into trouble, like with widespread sexual abuse scandals - pedophilia notably - and issues around managing money/resources of the church.
When considering those points, suspect the number of real conservatives (not reactionaries and the corrupt) diminishes a bit.
Otherwise, don't think its a doctrinal issue when it comes having women priests. Just tradition, that is stubbornly being cited by the arrogant and narrow minded.
Celibacy was more a case of preventing priests turning their positions into family businesses and embezzling resources of the church. An argument could be made that in not having a family a person would dedicate all time to God. Think other denominations have shown otherwise, while celibacy evokes the whacky marathon efforts demonstrating holiness in the 4th and 5th centuries... in Egypt and the Med.
6
The theory that there is an enlightened class who hears more clearly the truth, and through their wisdom we can learn how to live, is relic of a past that no longer exists. If this task is left to an elite class, then all they can teach is what behaviors to avoid and of which to follow. But behavior is not the level of teaching because you can do what you really do not want to do. The issue is what do you want and is what I want a good thing? The whole idea that sex is a good thing, but a priest must give up what is valuable, has led to a sense of sacrifice that is more Pagan than What the Big Guy is teaching us. Which brings us to the current Pope. His love for God and Creation makes the idea of sacrifice, and with it a bitter sense of lack and resentment, a relic of past that no longer exists for those who Love God with all of their self, and who also have a love for their neighbor as their self. You do not need to be a priest or nun to live this way; the experience of this kind of love is as far away as your desire for it. This is very hard to understand for those so full of shame and guilt, that they are desperate to have some authority tell them the correct way to live. Forgive yourself for this nonsense and join the mighty chorus to the love of God. RD called this Popes washing the feet of another just some symbolism and very trite, compared to him laying down the iron hammer of "you better behave or God will get you." Loving and forgiving another is the whole way home.
3
This all seems like desperate logic designed to justify splitting the church. A. You can’t have a conservative church that does not follow the Pope. B. “Conservative” principles are responsible for the sexual abuse of women and children the church produced and why it needs reform.
9
Douthat bends himself into a pretzel to explore and support conservative Catholicism.
I say let the Catholics apply the theory of evolution to their. Those that don't or can't change/evolve become extinct.
It seems to me that the basic tenants of Jesus did not cover any kind of orthodoxy. Indeed,
http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot/beatitudes-vs-commandments/
[choosing some relevant beatitudes...]
" These are the blessings that Jesus talked about in the Sermon on the Mount, and they offer an entirely different moral code, one which is inviting rather than prohibitive:
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."
I don't see * these * teaching of Jesus in this column's archaic orthodoxy...
Pope Francis is the one that walks the walk.
14
It's obvious that conservatives across the globe (from conservative Catholics to conservative Republicans) can't seem to accept how much the world has changed for women, gays, and sex in general. Fine, you go on teaching traditions from hundreds (thousands) of years ago and you'll continue to see diminishing baptisms year after year. Pope Francis, to me, is liberating the Catholic Church from irrelevance.
17
Pope Francis is hardly liberal. His views are consistent with the traditional teachings of the church. This isn’t complicated. The Pope has authority to abolish or make exceptions to church rules when they are silly or merciless. Jesus entrusted Peter as his infallible representative on earth because he saw the hypocrisy and unnecessary suffering the Pharisees and Sadducees of his time caused. Francis is just doing what he has been called to do.
10
Interesting that you quote an Anglican "heretic" T.S. Eliot at the end of the Op-Ed.
5
dorothy day, daniel sheehan, the catholic worker movement, the berrigan bros,......that's where the good can be found. And don't forget the nuns in detroit who, back in '03, bought the first hybrids because "that's what jesus would do." There is so much worthwhile in that world. Go smell the roses. thnx.
12
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. "
- G.K. Chesterton
On the other hand....
"If Buddhism and Science conflict, then Buddhism must change."
- [the] Dalai Lama
6
I would refer readers to NYT archives related to Cardinal Burke. Go back far enough (1-2 yrs? not sure) and take a gander at the outrageous outfits--one with an enormously long red train that required a group of young attendents to carry in procession.
He sounds sober and reasonable here( and in Douthat's interview), but read some of this earlier pronouncements--from before he lost power, and you'll see what's really what.
MT opinion? He should not still be a Cardinal, even on paper.
7
It will go away? Our Lord was not particularly conservative in his views.
10
I hope Catholicism, conservative or otherwise, goes by the wayside much like Zeus and all the other ancient dogma has gone. The world would be a much more peaceful and enjoyable place to live. Just think no more wars about who’s imaginary god is better! Wishful thinking, I know. Giving up power and money is much harder than that.
10
@Zigzag From your mouth to gods' ears. So to speak. ;)
3
It was well known that each pope takes the name of the saint or holy man they wished to emulate. As a seminarian in the 1970's no pontiff had taken the name of the great leader from Assisi, named Francis, because it meant the new pope would have to be familiar with poverty, (the present pope has asked his priests to smell like the poor. For anyone who serves or has served the needy you and I both know what the Pope means), be open to dealing with people as they are, and spend most of their time feeding hungry bellies and healing physical maladies rather than arguing over who belongs to our clan and who did not.
This present Pope is truly remarkable because he boldly proclaims the charism of St Francis of Assisi.
That the Conservative Catholic Church can't recognize this new Francis is his recent incarnation is not surprising to me. It is very sad.
23
Liberal Christians (I'm thinking of Jimmy Carter and Pope Francis) follow the teachings of Jesus and focus on the Gospels. Conservatives follow the teachings of Paul and look to the Epistles for inspiration, hence the conservative's stress on priestly (read male) authority and preoccupation with sexuality and reproduction, and the liberals concern with poverty and social justice.
15
Of people who ostensibly died and later revived, it is nearly universal testimony that sectarian religion does not matter. They do not come back to inform us that one faith or one approach is more valid than another. They urge love, connectedness, and suspension of judgment. Whether this phenomenon constitutes a message from beyond or one from deep within the human heart, isn't it the handwriting on the wall? Shouldn't their words remind every ecclesiastical council and conference that much of what they dispute and scheme to accomplish is vanity? If you knew the death of your institution is proximate, what would you want its business to be in the days it has left?
9
If your epistemological method is trying to figure out the desires of some omniscient, omnipotent sky god, the existence of whom is impossible to demonstrate, then how do you tell whether we should be helping the poor or slaughtering the heretics? Which claims about god's will are true, those of liberal Protestants or Salafist fanatics? I'll wait for your proof.
7
Don’t worry, Monsignor Barr has the answer.
9
Burke is wrong. He needs to go back and READ the Gospels! I suggest your Ross, READ the Beatitudes!
7
Ross and Cardinal Burke and the Catholic Church are all struggling with the same thing.....how to deal with, and adapt to, modernity and a changing world. Can, and should, the Church change to accommodate changes in the world around us? How should the Church respond to changes in the role of women? Can the Church become more accountable for its’ covering up decades of abuse? These are not necessarily theological or doctrinal issues. The Church, and Cardinal Burke and others like him, need to respond to the needs of the laity. The world has changed around us and change continues at an accelerating rate. The Church will need to adapt quickly, or find itself left behind.
5
I’m Catholic, and I just don’t feel this tension when I attend Mass. I wonder if some people just want to politicize religion to try to make it more interesting.
18
@James Murdock
Maybe some Catholics, and many non-Catholics, simply see a broader view than you, including genuine internal conflict and also problems like the Church’s refusal to turn over accused sex abusers to police.
8
There is a real problem in Ross Douthat's terminology. The adjective "conservative" is incorrect in describing those who oppose Pope Francis' attempt to change Catholic doctrine. The correct adjective is Traditional, with a capital T. St John Henry Newman warned at the end of his life that the greatest threat to the Christian faith in the future would be liberalism, not in the political sense, but in the sense that all religions have their place and that truth has no place in discussing these religions. But the claim of the Christian faith is that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. There is no other Savior of the world. He defines Truth. It is basic Catholic teaching that no Pope can change the Tradition handed down from the Apostles to the present time. Doctrine can develop. It cannot change. No development can contradict what the Church has believed in the past. The Pope is bound to uphold the Tradition, not to remake it in his own 1960s image.
19
@Father Richard G Cipolla
These "Traditional" Catholics, or as they like to call themselves, "Faithful," just so happen to not only claim orthodoxy but also promote political positions which without fail echo the far right of the Republican party and President Trump, right down to parroting the talking points of the NRA after the El Paso and Dayton shootings.
It is absolutely, 100 percent political.
114
@Father Richard G Cipolla
Dear Father Cipolla,
When you write "...the claim of the Christian faith is that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.There is no other Savior of the world. He defines Truth", can you see how every religion makes a similar claim? Substitute Muslim and Mohammed in the above quote, for example.
This is why religions fight each other, even today, and why so many have left their religion in the last 50 years, as I left Catholicism. I support any person of Faith's right to worship as they see fit, but there is a strong sense among many people that these structures of faith and the arguments that religions get into are largely irrelevant at best and a hindrance in dealing with the more pressing issues the world faces, at worst.
As you prepare to enter into Advent, I hope you will consider that the"Church" and the teachings of Jesus might be more different from each other than you perhaps consider them to be.
32
@Father Richard G Cipolla
A wise prophet once said, "Tradition makes a good guide, but a poor master." Tradition, dogma and doctrine can, and have, changed.
For many centuries, a core point of Church doctrine/dogma and tradition was that the earth was the center of the universe, and the sun revolved around it. Because of that, Church leaders persecuted Galileo. They have since changed that core doctrine and although it took several hundred years, the Pope did apologize to Galileo, posthumously.
29
Isn't AG Bill Barr if not a well known, certainly a known member of that particular branch of Catholicism of which Mr. Douthat is so worried about, conservative Catholicism? If AG Bill Barr is representative of such, hopefully Pope Francis exterminates with "extreme prejudice" any and all vestiges of conservative Catholicism.
57
The inflexibility and self-righteousness of conservative Catholicism is resulting in a shrinking flock. Notably women are abandoning the faith and choosing not to raise their children Catholic. The Conservative wing of the Catholic Church refuses to be open to new ideas and change. They are strangling the Catholic Church to extinction.
15
My wife is a devout Catholic. Her faith welded by conditions only a single mother, with two young children, unable to find work, could truly understand. The receiver of a hand-woven cross, a community's gift to a Jesuit priest, a later mentor, no better a voice could Pope Francis pray for. And Catholics will want to pray for him as well. While he has yet time to make the structual changes that will help ensure future generations encounter, in the church, the Pope's message of peace and mercy.
4
I left the church a long time ago, not coming back regardless of who is pope.
5
Conservative Catholics now hold considerable power within the US govt-- William Barr's recent hysteria on secularism threatening America, Steve Bannon's clear involvement in right wing Catholicism are just two examples. The same agenda as American evangelicals and it is quite chilling. They all want a return to a mythical puritanical past, and they are the enemies of a secular and diverse America.
24
Only a man could write this and long for the status quo to continue in the Catholic church! Why can't we have women deacons and priests? They were good enough for the early church. Why all the focus on ending abortion, and making it illegal again? When as a woman physician I know it's just not a simple yes or no issue, and that many if not most of the people out there protesting a woman's choice would also be voting to restrict assistance to poor mothers and children? Why does my parish pray every week for an end to abortion, and only once, at my request, did a prayer to end the death penalty make it into the prayers of the faithful during Mass? Because most of those conservative Catholics you defend here find it more palatable to restrict the choices of "sexually loose" women and rate the lives of the unborn of higher value than the incarcerated?
I'm still going to the Catholic church because it is where I get to meet Jesus and try to become a better reflected image of him. But unlike you, I have been waiting for the breath of fresh air that is Francis. Unlike you, I have been waiting my whole Catholic life--sixty plus years! I learned from my Irish grandmother to keep my eye on Jesus and not on the clergy!
25
The purpose or job of every church should be the nuturance of spiritual growth and development- period!
I always ask: Would you be catholic, Protestant, Baptist , Lutheran etc if your parents weren’t? Ponder that fir awhile.
Most organized religions totally ignore their purpose.
9
What will happen to conservative Catholicism? The same thing that should happen to all religions with their Bronze Age teachings. They should be condemned to the dustbin of history. Religion has been a plague upon humanity for centuries, and we would do ourselves a great favor, by turning our back on it and allowing it to shrink into nothing. However, I have no illusions that that will ever happen, as we are all afraid of dying, and so willing to believe in myths to assuage that fear.
13
@Kjensen I completely agree. All religion is an attempt to deny our own individual, lonely and eternal disappearance at death. This is the bottom line.
1
The idea of a God maybe helpful to the individual, the organization of any religion is not. Religions are man made corporations, trying to get as many customers as they can. Actually God is a man made idea but often by the individual. The need for a God is used by the religious corporations for their own good. The Pope is the CEO and the archbishops are board members and the nuns and priests are salespeople and workers. The parishioners are the customers.
5
"The parishioners are the customers"
Who have to shoulder the burden the cruelty and dalliances of the hierarchy.
5
The Jesuits need to be re-invented, or returned to being the teachers of science that they were for centuries. In my new book 'The Humanist - Continuance' Pope Francis allows them to forsake the supernatural for said science, and take a 'soft fork' toward Christian Humanism. Is cognitive evolution allowed in religion?
1
@Dwight Jones Let's not get carried away and have them once again enforcing the inquisition.
The one subject that I do not understand about "conservative" Catholics is the issue of priestly celibacy.
It is true that there have always been celibate priests in the Church, just as there have been lay celibates. However, the accepted practice of the Church was to ordain married men up until the Councils in 1123 and 1139. So, for a thousand plus years, what the Amazon church is proposing was just fine.
Now, we can endlessly debate whether the Church made the correct decision in 1123. But let us accept that, for its time, it was the correct choice. Why is is so hard to imagine that reversing the decree is not the correct choice now? Society is, after all, very different now. It would seem to me that the correct rule is not celibacy itself, but the principle that the rule must serve the needs of the Church.
The situation is even more puzzling for someone like myself that grew up in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. My first priest in Yonkers NY was married!
16
Just like conservatives of all stripes, inflicting pain in the service of traditional doctrine.
10
I think it is time for Ross Douthat to pontificate on the choice of our current US ambassador to the Vatican, the now about to be thrice divorced Catholic Rudy Giuliani, Pence who converted to Catholicism and seems to like the second class citizenship status of women, and his own conversion to Catholicism. It it the male superiority complex that appeals? Then there is the veneration of thrice married Trump who lies like a rug and since his election has been fined for cheating students with Trump University and for using his charity as a personal piggy bank. And he hasn't sinned enough to warrant impeachment or at least massive defeat at the polls?
14
In the US, conservative Catholicism has capitulated to the conservative protestant-ism. The threat is not from the left within, it is from the right outside.
7
The other day I was walking my dog near the neighborhood Catholic church, on a Saturday, and saw an older couple walking in. One had a cane and the other a walker. It took them about 3 minutes to get up the ramp and into the door. I wondered then how symbolic this was, and how many GenX, Y & Z ers will continue to prop up this organization. Which, without extremely biased, irrational, government support, in any other form would have been taken down by RICO and child abuse cases long ago. The musings in this column are rather fanciful in the context of what evil they have harbored. The complete collapse of this vile collection of hypocrisy and rigid traditions, with no basis in love, reason, truth or beauty, cannot come any too soon for its victims.
9
In the past conservative Catholicism has brought us the Crusades and the Inquisitions. For the present, it has burdened this country with Bannon, Kavanaugh, Alito, Mulvaney and so many others. All conservative religious ideologues, be they Christian, Jewish, Buddhists or Muslim have manipulated their religions to sow war and death. Why should they endure in any form?
13
"What Will Happen to Conservative Catholicism?" With luck and prayer, it will go the way of the dinosaurs. It has brought tragedy and suffering to millions over the centuries. Has it brought comfort and solace to some as well? Perhaps, but I'm skeptical.
14
I find Douthat’s conservative driven views regarding Catholicism and Pope Francis to be myopic, at a minimum. I suggest that he read “Mussolini and the Pope.” If anyone corrupted the Catholic Church, it was Pope Pius XI. Pius bargained with Mussolini at the expense of Italian Jews, Roma people and homosexuals. I don’t recall any hand wringing from conservative Catholics, whatever that means to Mr. Douthat. Did Pius “corrupt” the church by making common cause with fascists, you bet he did!
13
Zealots will be zealots.
Jesus never said anything about a big, honkin' bureaucractic institution bent on shaming sinners. He was inclusive, not exclusive. He had compassion, not cruelty. He was not a builder of buildings, a collector of art, a crowner of kings. The church is no reflection of the man they won't let down from the cross.
The only religion that reveres a symbol of torture and death, this church is a monument to the very human desire for power over others.
8
I don't care about any of this, but am always excited to see the word "synod" used.
4
Ross, Simply put, while I don't know exactly what is used now when a new Pope is elected, I do know that I'm the o!d days the phrase used was 'thou art Peter'.
Apparently both you and your Cardinal seem to feel that, sometimes at least it's more of a ' you are Peter (sorta kinda).
3
I grew up Catholic, taught by Jesuits thankfully, who were not dogmatic, conservative priests, interested in the rules and regulations decided upon by a priestly elite many, many centuries ago to assure their dominance and control of the populace. It's long past time for that dominance and control to end. Not one aspect of that mindset reflects the teachings of Jesus. The Church aristocracy has forgotten its own beginnings, and consequently done more harm than good for far too long.
12
Mr. Douthit, As a Jew married to a nice Catholic girl from Ohio for the past 31 years, I must tell you that you really need to think again before ending an article about Catholicism with a quote from a virulent, well-known anti-semite like T.S. Eliot. Hopefully this was not deliberate.
12
Good article. Probably prescient analysis of the evolving trends within the Roman Catholic Church.
The most pressing issue, of course, is the child-abuse. All factions within the Church had better deal with that firmly and fast,or there will be no Church.
It seems odd that the conservative wing of the Catholic clergy has dug in their heels on celibacy There were mentions of priestly celibacy as early as 300 AD, but I have never heard any Catholic claim that there is actual Biblical precedent for it, and generally it is believed to be the result of concern over families inheriting Church property or nepotism in Church offices (of which there was plenty, anyway!), a policy initiated in about 1,000 AD
I am less familiar with the issue of women priests, but it is hard to imagine Jesus laying down such an interdict, so it is similarly hard to understand conservative Catholic priests stuck on that issue.. If Jesus or other early Christians took positions like that -- well, it is a little like the difference between the Pope speaking ex cathedra vs. casually.
3
You know, liberal Catholics had to wait out decades of John Paul II, with all the admonitions of conservatives that the Pope had to be obeyed, etc. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Amazing how similar Burke seems to be to conservative Republicans. The authority of the leader only matters when it is your guy.
16
Ross, what you describe, and seem to be advocating, is the impeachment of Pope Francis for not being sufficiently Republican. But he is a leader who realizes that the world is burning (literally) and the Catholics of down-south on all continents need help for their bodies and souls. The Church that had taught me to think and to feel will survive by casting off the likes of Cardinal Burke who seem to never have read the New Testament, especially what Jesus was saying on the Mountain.
10
I don't think that the catholic church was what Jesus Christ intended period.
20
Amen Brother!
5
Thank you!
5
As long as people are punished for their sexual desire, as long as they are guilty of expressing that desire, Ross's sex negative dystopian vision of repression, oppression punishment and control has a good chance of thriving.
6
Oh, my. I suggest Ross (and perhaps Cardinal Burke) get themselves a subscription to HBO so they can watch "His Dark Materials". Or they could just pick up the novels.
I found this Cardinal's comment from the attached interview shocking, "Well, clearly Christ constituted the church as a hierarchical communion."
I'd say that clearly "Christ" had nothing to do with the the constitution of the church and would be horrified by it and all the monstrous acts carried out by it in his name these past 2000 years.
But my real question for Ross is why, in these times, does he still adhere to the hocus pocus of organized religion?
8
As a non-believer it always astounds when I read about intra-denominational battles. Shia v Sunni Islam, Evangelical v Mainstream Protestant, Conservative v Liberal Catholicism are in the end, differences without distinction. They are organizational based. They are power based. They are not however based on the needs of the followers, only the leaders of the movements within each movement.
When a religious organization is at war with itself; it offers only tension and strife rather than calm and peace for its practitioners. Is there any wonder why attendance in Christian-based churches in the US is suffering?
9
At the age of 69, I've left the Catholic church and it's rigid unchanging ways. My wife and I have attended Episcopalian services recently. What a pleasant difference! I have faith, just not in the Catholic church. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.
7
I'm sure this is interesting to some folks. But I think it belongs in the religious section. Catholicism is a shrinking religion in the United States. There are more nones then there are Catholics in the United States. If you are going to run this in the editorial page your should something about anticlericalism alongside it. I'm not against learning about religion but I don't believe it is appropriate to put it in such a important place. In the same edition you complained that scientists weren't smart enough to convince you that climate change was important. And you continue to run these inane conservatives who really belong on Fox news.
Why not get relevant and put on the op-ed page something that's important about the United States?
9
Does any of this really matter? Religion in general is fading. Ask young people what their religion is and most will tell you that they either don't have one or that they have one but don't practice it. Cardinal Burke and the rest of them are merely fighting to hang on to their power and influence. In the meantime the churches in Europe and the United States struggle to find baby's to baptize.
9
Although sometimes I do get the feeling that Pope Francis enjoys reading his own press coverage a bit too much, in the end his Papacy will represent the inevitable swing back to the modernizers after the very long Papacy of John Paul II and then Benedict XVI. This is very similar to secular politics in the West, which go back and forth between moderate liberalism and centrist conservatism. There's no reason to get overly upset when the pendulum goes in the opposite direction from what one favors, because it will swing back soon enough. This is especially true for an institution which has lasted for a couple of thousand years, because its basic truths will remain for the faithful.
2
The cardinals, bishops, priests speak as though, "Gestalt theory,
"the whole is greater than the sum of its parts".
Whenever the pope calls them together, and if, they would include some more of catholicism's PARTS, including the "collection givers", it would bring a new directions to the church.
I was educated in a catholic school. Mass every morning before school, listened to the nuns about holiness.
Married a wonderful, compassionate, loving man.
We didn't practice birth control, because it was against catholicism.
Seven pregnacies, buried two babies, miscarried two, or on medical report, (aborted) and raised three wonderful children.
"God would reward us" for this sacrifice.
We were transferred and thank God began my appointments with a OBGYN, who took a look at the years of my married, pregnant life and said, "you may not have anymore pregancies".
He said, "I am a catholic doctor".
"A few years ago, I spoke with my priest to say, "I PROMISE NOT TO HEAR CONFESSION, IF YOU PROMISE NOT TO PRACTICE MEDICINE."
He wrote out the prescription for birth control pills and virtually saved my life and probably marriage.
I don't care if the priests marry. I care, the church involve more than cardinals, bishops, priests into their"power circle"
We are the sum of the parts and we count.
3
Meanwhile, good Catholics attend services and participate in good works at their local churches, without caring a flip about the peevish theological "struggles" of elderly celibates.
8
"Exciting" - no. When a church is based on a false premise that women are not equal to men, then everything it does is irrelevant. The petty squables of these old men validate those of us who left the church once we could think for ourselves. If the church wanted to focus on "exciting" they should follow the example of the nuns who strive for social justice. All the rest of it is sound and fury signifying nothing.
12
Excuse me, but the last time I looked, ultra-reactionary Catholics were running the entire American Administration.
Is that the answer to the question in the headline?
Also, cardinals who march down a street are supposed to be leading a religious procession on a feast day. They're not supposed to be demonstrating against their own pope or thumping the drum for a political agenda.
15
As a recovering catholic (lower case on purpose), I hope that conservative catholicism will finally die the death that has been coming for a long time. It has ruined far too many lives.
21
Don't you mean, "What Happened to Conservative Catholicism?"
It already flew out of Pandora's Box Here's hoping there's a loop somewhere.
Folks, there's no balance point without both liberal and conservative.
By the way, we need that balance in poltiics too...along with the need to work together.
2
Ever since Constantine put crosses on his soldier's shirts, won the battle and then proclaimed Christianity/Catholicism that State religion, the decline of the Christian faith began and ,as they say, the rest is history. Yet, despite the darkness of this history that endures to this day with the glaring contradictions of all forms of Christianity, especially Roman Catholicism, and organized religion in general some find meaning in the basic message. As Augustine wrote centuries ago: " You made us for yourself O Lord and our hearts are restless until they rest in thee." This human quest is deeper than any religion and is what we need to focus on to bring more light and peace into our lives.
1
“People say if you don’t accept that, you’ll be in schism,” Burke said, when “my point would be the document is schismatic. I’m not.”
Didn't Luther basically say the same thing? And Calvin? Any any other reformer you can think of?
Burke can't have it both ways. He accepts the magisterium or he doesn't. Otherwise he is, in the small "P" sense, a protestant.
5
What will happen to Conservative Catholicism? It will fade away, like so many other quaint superstitions. Any salient messages, e.g. caring for others, will carry forward as fables.
5
Conservative Catholicism should be an oxymoron. Following the teachings of Jesus would take the church down a more liberal path. It is the corruption of the Papal system that needs revolutionary change, and being "conservative" is its core problem and NOT a solution.
8
It is surprising—shocking and dismaying, really—that so many commenters here blithely fail even to mention the central issue in the Catholic Church: the continuing sexual abuse of children and the continued insistence within the Church that the accused abusers be turned over NOT to law enforcement, but merely to Church authorities.
How can any other discussion be had while this continues? How?
These are little kids, folks. Children. Predators are attacking them, and are still being protected and enabled.
6
Brought up strict Catholic. Married in Catholic church and children baptised in Catholic church. Left the church before our children could receive first Holy Communion. When I was growing up Catechism and the church wasn't concerned with learning Bible verses but spent energy and time helping the poor including migrants who came up every summer to pick fruit and live in shacks. Now the church is about politics and controlling women's bodies.
A church that demeans women and teaches that birth control and abortion are murder means they believe the men that run the church have the right to control women's bodies and I didn't want my children believe in this nonsense.
16
ALL the patriarchal Abrahamic religions hold power by convincing the gullible that unverifiable "beings" exist and are to be worshiped by the "faithful" with lucre paid in perpetuity to the hierarchy of their systems. They are all houses of cards that can neither produce their "gods" or provide proof of any kind that they exist. Fie upon all their houses.
7
The conservatives would love to turn the catholic church into a Trump like cult. Men are always right and women should be quiet. The catholic church did this by force for centuries. Believe or die. That's the only way it's functioning. Same with communism. In an open society it's not going to work. Thank God. The Republicans nowadays seem to support the closed societies of Plato, Rousseau, Hegel and Marx. Different ideology, same methods.
4
Twenty more years and the pews, at least in the US, will be even emptier. More churches will close. Stern cardinals will argue. Ross will dust off the paperback copy of Four Quartets he bought in college and write another column.
5
I like this article because it supports my belief that the only thing that can save the demise of the Catholic church is to establish two entities (conservative and change). In other areas I have found Catholic congregations that are de facto one or the other. The Jews have the orthodox, conservative and reform, the Methodists are deviding over the LBGT issue. In this area the Catholic churches are so conservative that they seem to be more influenced by the Southern Baptist Convention than than the hardly ever mentioned Pope. The most glaring example of the negativism of the Catholic conservative approach was the recent refusal of the priest in Florence, SC refusing communion to Joe Biden. We do not have enough negative presss, this narrow minded priest needed a day in the sun, and got darkness. If you continue the same approach you will most likely reach the the same result. The churches are full of old people, and the decisions are made by old people. The conservative leaders actually thought they could hide the sexual abuse issue. Have you ever heard of a Catholic priest refusing communion or anything else to a sexual abusive priest or bishop?
When is the last time you heard this catastrophic issue discussed at Mass? A priest in this area gave me his take on the abuse issue "it is the work of the devil". Complex issues are rarely solved by simple explanations. Why was it ok for priests to marry for the first 1,000 years?
5
In the 2016 election, white, born-again/evangelical Christians voted 81%-16% in support of Trump.
White Catholics voted 60% - 37% in support of Trump.
The U.S. Catholic Church supported Trump in the media and from the pulpit. A conservative Catholic magazine titled CATHOLIC STAND In July of 2016 ran the article "10 Reasons Catholics Should Vote For Trump". The author included these beauties:
- Voting for an imperfect man is not a sin
- Ben Carson endorsed him - Carson said, “Some people have gotten the impression that Donald Trump is this person who is not malleable, who does not have the ability to listen, and to take information in and make wise decisions. And that’s not true. He’s much more cerebral than that.”
- He is a successful businessman
- He hurt my feelings; I’m still voting for him. - "Many of the objections against Trump include: he’s cocky, he’s racist, he’s sexist, he’s a joke, he’s not smart enough. The majority of these claims come from statements he has made, not actions."
- He’s not Hillary Clinton - "He is not my ideal candidate by any stretch of the imagination. However, I think he’s decent in many ways, and ultimately better than his opposition. For me, that is enough, and I hope you will end up deciding that as well."
1
Times change. Mel Gibson and his father certainly weren't the only people who thought Pope John and Vatican 2 were the end of the world. Things change, and the sky isn't falling now, either. At least not on the Catholic church.
1
Given the troubles (to put it mildly) that the traditional Catholic Church has tried to whitewash for centuries, you'd think that this was a MeToo moment that should be heeded.
Sticking to first-century miracle stories and obeying the wishes of Invisible Sky People may be the wrong tack to take in a modern world that can tell the difference between fairy tales and philosophy.
The conservative tendency to revere our worst instincts, make up facts and use them to control the gullible may be teetering. We've seen what dogmatic absurdity looks like every night on the news. And once you've seen it for what it is, its hard to unsee it.
All religions contain nuggets of wisdom and some philosophical truths that are worth passing on to the next generation. But these do not include what priests can wear or if women can leave an abusive marriage and remarry or whether gay people are abominations in the eyes of God.
To put it mildly, we've got bigger problems to worry about.
4
This outfit, along with the Republican Party, was over a long time ago. Everyone knows it but them.
9
Those who want the Church to exist in yesteryear are going to be left behind as the rest of society evolves, with or without them.
8
Hopefully , we take it all apart, jail the thousands of pervert priests, and use the ridiculous tax free wealth in Catholic Disneyworld to help house, feed, and help those in need..enough fairy tales, on Mars this all would have no meaning! Spirituality , Charity, Honor and Decency, all of the above, without the story lines that have been crafted to keep us in awe of a fantasy! Native Americans pray under trees, and why not, however prayer is like a meditation, fairy tales are not required..
1
No matter how you dress it up, the Catholic Church (not the teachings of Jesus) is built on the belief that women are inferior to men.
It is, in a nutshell, the cause of all the Church's problems.
8
“I haven’t changed. I’m still teaching the same things I always taught and they’re not my ideas.”
Looks like Cardinal Burke has decided that there's no need for him to think, he just has to repeat ideas that have been imposed on him without questioning them.
4
My hopeful answer to the question posed in the headline is, hopefully the way of the Do Do bird.
5
Cardinal Burke is a rigid man who literally cloaks himself,(his vestments are include capes that are 20 feet long silk garments), in the trappings of his position. Francis has spoken out about the ostentatious concerns that obscure the true calling of the priesthood.
In 2013 Burke declared Speaker Pelosi should be denied communion. If the bread and wine is truly the Body and Blood of Christ as is defined by transubstantiation then only an arrogant person would deem himself entitled to deny anyone the Body of Christ.
These are just two bits about Burke. That isn't conservative. It's about having power over another person instead of following the path of Christ.
7
>>What will happen to Consevative Catholicism?
Hopefully it will die out. If it wants to survive it has to return to the Catholicism of John 23rd... Francis is attempting this and being thwarted by many.
4
Once again, insecurity breeds dogmatism.
4
Cardinal Burke and conservative Catholics are on the wrong tact of history, especially recent history.
The indissolubility of marriage and those divorced taking the Eucharist are minor points in light of sacerdotal pederasty that is legion. The Catholic hierarchy turned a blind eye to it for years.
"The divorced in line for communion, stop right there!"
"Furtive sexual abuse. Well, we'll let that slide."
Indigenous pantheism and nature-worship, while not endorsed by John Paul ll, were condoned obliquely by his meeting with Native North Americans here in Phoenix in 1987. Several tribes engaged in ritual in an Arizona arena for him. The Pope talked of their oppression and exploitation.
In developed countries. pantheism will never be a large element. But gainsaying nature worship as a whole would be counterproductive because it discounts followers of Christ in this hemisphere, and also diminishes the "thou" feeling for the earth in an epoch of catastrophic climate change.
A benign change agent like Francisco is really what we need. Nuestro papa enlarges the body of Christ in this era so that we all can better minister to the marginal, the oppressed, the infirm, and those with hardships. The purpose of unity through the Eucharist is to make Christ's love visible.
If Burke makes an issue of abortion, I can see where he is coming from.
However, most of Cardinal Burke's remonstrance is counterproductive. It diminishes the compassion of Christ.
2
I am sure this comment will offend some, maybe galvanize others, but peoples’ opinions should not detract from its veracity:
Why is this distinguished paper publishing detailed articles about religion as if it’s a veritably true premise? There is absolutely no credible evidence of a God. There is also a dearth of proof that Jesus was his son, who inexplicably possessed other worldly powers.
This is a paper that rightfully criticizes climate change deniers, while simultaneously suggesting there is a God, without corroboration.
Doesn’t this paradox confound some?
5
I don't know. A traditional conservative Catholicism seems to be doing pretty well on SCOTUS.
3
Wow. I seem to me that the Catholic clergy are still arguing about how many angels are on the head of a pin. The world is falling apart and they are worried about a tiny statue?
5
I have no right to tell Roman Catholics what to do, since I have left the Roman Catholic Church, but I can say this: Progressives like me suffered, and continue to suffer, under the rule of the JP II bishops and cardinals. However this is all changing under Francis, and conservatives don't like it one bit. Well, get used to it. My feelings apparently didn't matter to you for the last 25 years. Now, how do you like it?
2
Those of us on the taiga in WI remember Burke very well. He once declared as the bishop that priests should deny our Congressman Obey communion for Obey did not always vote pro life. To which Obey replied we are not living in medieval times.
Then Burke was sent as a Cardinal or Arch Bishop to St Louis where his reign was so disruptive he was plucked out and ensconced in the Vatican.
Among my still practicing Catholic friends of that time Burke did more to drive thinking people out of the Church than any other person.
For that I always favored him.
2
If the catholic church doesn't modernize it's toast. The oppression of women can't be justified. Not allowing divorce is brutal towards abused women. Not allowing contraception is brutality against women as well. It's a church for 'brutal' men. Deep down the catholic church has no respect for women. Same as mainstream Islam. Judaism condemned the beating of women in the middle ages. They allowed divorce for abused women. They condone contraception. Seems more humanist to me.
1
To give an answer to the headline, Soon hopefully it will be as relevant as the Greek Myths.
Since God is so great why does it matter to Him or His universe what we believe? Our job is to behave ourselves, take care of each other and the earth.
1
The church, under Francis, continues to report allegations of sex abuse of children only to church authorities, and not to law enforcement.
Until this changes, there is room for no other discussion of the Catholic Church.
2
Zero credibility in an institution riddled with the most despicable of crimes and still unwilling to bring women to the table...neither of which is addressed in this article.
What should happen is a rapid decline in numbers and relevance, given "conservative" Catholicism's absolute insistence that the rest of society follow its reactionary, sectarian demands, which in the end are nothing but using the love of Christ as a political weapon.
It's time is long over. Women own their bodies. Queer people are, and will be, equal members of society. Priests are no more important or authoritative than any other person.
We must continue to liberate humanity from the absurd dogmas of religious reactionaries.
Just a suggestion: In the South we air our dirty linen in the backyard, not on the front page of the New York Times.
Ross is desperate to turn the clock back to some time well before the Second Vatican Council. The only readers who buy his assertion that Pope Francis is some kind of heretic are those who agree that the world was better off when (white) men of standing and substance made all the decisions and there was no questioning.
He is probably not going to get any takers. A rant about church laws, orthodoxy, heresy or undermining the power and office of the Pope is a distasteful exhibition of frustration that the world will not bow down to antiquated beliefs. The Catholic Church's problem is.....the Catholic Church.
Perhaps all those conservative Catholics could spend some time figuring out how the church could be a visible sign of living the Beatitudes and the parables of Jesus.
3
Just more mush from the male hierarchy that maintains the church as a way of maintaining male hierarchy and its obsessions. Rather than focusing on the simple teachings of its basic doctrine — really just the Golden Rule — for much of the last millenium the church honed its political, financial and male power to control people — and abuse many of them. See Crusades, clergy sexual abuse as examples. All the while the church and its clergy have amassed land and money. Diocesan priests it should be noted do not take vows of poverty.
And so this new Pope utters the words “who am I to judge?” and the layers of climbers all dressed in red see their power declining. I would be angry but I see the arc of human nature unmasking these remnants from the Middle Ages. They will go the way of the czars and heredity systems that spawned the Windsors, another costly remnant from a superstitious era of human development. Church attendance is declining. Church buildings across the land are seeking other uses or falling, like the baronial castles of old into rubble. As I said, the arc of human nature learns from its mistakes and moves on.
2
I don't think arguing over a religion is proper on these pages. Keep your religious beliefs to yourself or take them to a another place !
5
Perhaps Francis is the most orthodox as he tries to recapture the New Testament foundation of the early church - a church often led by women and married couples. The other "orthodox" revel in the canon law that enables Borgia, child abuse, the denigration of women and the backing for Fascists and National Socialists. Francis has the lay people, the true Catholics, in mind. The "orthodox" remain fixated upon their own power and privilege.
3
A favourite story of mine is when the Vatican applied to become a member of the United Nations , but was denied.
Reason: How can you be considered a nation when you have no women or children?
When only men run the misogynistic church you have the mess the church is in now;
a gross lack of balance that perpetuates predators , corruption and diminished numbers that will only increase as women from misogynistic countries become educated.
3
The aged, white men leading a march aimed at preventing women from having freedom over their own body's destiny says it all.
4
Religion is your own personal experience. I listen to Pope Francis because to me he is a very good man, who has acknowledged the grievous errors of these pretend servants of God.
I look at the pretend religious GOP with a spokesman of Jim Jordan, Michael Pence and wonder how they can distort the words of God so easily.
There is one god ( if you believe in God) and no one speaks for him or her. The anti God people are the people who pretend that they are more spiritual than anyone lese. They are the false prophets.
Pope Francis will carry our church into the future and like the conservatives, the GOP their bigotry are vultures of the past, no one believes they speak for anyone other than the words of greed a striking sin and maybe the GOP will realize that there is a death that we all experience and maybe they need to be on the right side of God.
Hopefully conservative Catholicism will be replaced. Its need to control so many aspects of life is not beneficial.
There really is no need for a person that wants to be a priest to sacrifice the experience of love of another and raising a family. That is being human.
There really is no need for a Catholic hospital to force a woman to go to another hospital for life saving surgery rather than just to the procedure. After all, first do no harm is what doctors are taught.
There really is no need to be against contraception and essentially tell men in Africa that God would rather them get AIDS than use a condom.
With what we now know about Earth's biology, there really is no need to follow the "guidance" of what ancient men wrote about homosexuality and women.
And there certainly should be a review of all those rules that should be discarded like eating fish on Fridays.
Apparently, conservative Catholics believe that the pope is infallible, as long and he does what they say.
6
My hope is it will die off, and the institution itself will evolve into a secular force for good.
1
The writer implies that the Pope is not himself conservative, but only someone to be challenged by church conservatives.
Any religious leader who, like Francis, clings to the notion that clergy who rape children are to be reported only to church authorities, and not to law enforcement, is WAY too conservative for me.
He is in my mind a criminal enabler and protector of those clergy who rape children.
1
At least this piece is a break from our current politics.
Then again, it is still just a bunch of old (mostly white) men pontificating about what everyone else should do while insisting they don't have to be held to the same standards.
Raymond Burke is the Catholic Church version of Dick Cheney. Mr. Douthit and others in the media who still follow him are just joining him in his slide into irrelevance.
The church is so much more than their ridiculous essays about Cardinals and columnists dancing on pins.
2
16 percent of the world is Catholic. Hardly a "universal" issue.
Good lord! I see your title and all I can think is that maybe those conservative Catholics, well, any Catholic believers in "the Book" will finally pick up some other books and actually read the verified historical background to the flow of philosophical and religious myths and texts in the Near East/Mediterranean area during the two centuries before and after the Common Era. You keep writing about this stuff as if you yourself haven't a clue about the Essenes and their Great Teacher who lived around 100BCE, and his prototype Sermon on the Mount in the Qumran scrolls. You choose to keep promulgating christian myth, and I sense you're smart enough to know that the organized religion version of Catholicism was cooked up as a tool of power for Constantine. So your choice to keep promulgating any adherence to that organized religion is that you are pandering to the powers that continue to use belief as a tool to suppress thinking and to keep the masses under the thumb of power people who could care less about the actual teachings of love that was the great philosophical revolution for Western civilization at that time. Try reading some history before you opine any more on religion.
1
Seems to me that these white conservative prelates will be the only ones left in the so called "Catholic Church". Then they can argues truths like "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin". While they remain rule-bound, the rest of us are looking for faith.
2
Oh yes, Ross. You pine for that same conservative Church that was the rock of support of Francisco Franco in Spain and every military dictator in Latin America. The Church that did nothing as its very own parishioners were disappeared and thrown out of airplanes to drown drugged in the Rio de la Plata. The Church that did nothing to stop or even condemn the Holocaust.
The Church can either become part of the modern world and respect and promote democracy and human rights, or it can cease to exist as far as I am concerned. Tens of millions of ordinary Catholics (I'm married to one) have already voted with their feet and walked out the door never to return.
1
So the conservatives want to foment populist revolt because their leader is not authoritarian enough?
1
As to the objections to the indigenous art and the recognition of nature-worship, are the conservatives forgetting the Celtic cross? It artistically blends Jesus’ cross and the circle in the center of it... representing the sun. Celtic pagans were eased into new thinking by St. Patrick and other missionaries to come, “We used to worship the sun, but we now worship the Son.”
This easing of ancient beliefs into new..... is nothing new for the Church!
1
I am curious why the NYT feels the need to prominently host Douthat's commentaries on Catholicism. The subject as it relates to politics or greater civic issues would be interesting, but the regular focus on the inner workings of the church seems odd for this paper.
This column reminds we why humanism and moral relativism are not as scary as folks like Douthat would make them seem. They have their challenges, yes, but nothing compared to clinging to the belief in the infallibility of the Church.
1
"What Will Happen to Conservative Catholicism?"
Well, if poetic justice ruled the land, perhaps those "conservatives" would be raped, subjugated and then tortured until they recanted their sins or died.
All in the name of a loving Jesus, of course. No hard feelings, OK?
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind, Mr. Douthat.
4
Religion is shielded by the First Amendment.
It enjoys immunity from prosecution that would appear to be absolute.
Any private enterprise that engaged in the level of depravity revealed by the Catholic Church as evidenced by the thousands of cases of child abuse and its cover-up would have been shut down by Federal and States' attorneys general under existing RICO laws.
One wonders how the center ever held under the circumstances.
1
The dustbin of history. Great theatre. Descent aspirations.
Just when you think something honest and fruitful might happen, the ‘conservatives’ show up moaning and whining that other people are doing or wanting the same as them.
Claiming enough mythical intellectual connection to the Great Oz, Mr. Douthat laments The crowds lack of genuflecting in front of the great Ozez friend!
Hopefully the dustbin of wars, misogyny and or’leaping pride.
1
Why do we need conservative Catholicism at all? It is only important for the those trying to hang on to it and doesn't do any good for the rest of society in any way.
3
Catholicism has to deal with both the sexism and hypocrisy of its leadership.
Sexism in the way it treats women, for example, nuns. The Church has reinterpreted different aspects of its doctrines and teachings over the centuries, and this is another that needs a complete overhaul.
Hypocrisy in the way it has handled its pedophilia crisis for decades or longer. I recently heard Seth Meyers describe it humorously and aptly. He said something to the effect that if you found out that a restaurant had a rat problem in its kitchen, would you go back to that restaurant if management told you they solved the problem by moving the rats to the dining room? Until people believe the rats are totally gone and there is a trustworthy system in place to keep other rats out, the Church has a big problem.
The number of young adults in the Church has been steadily declining for a long time. Sexism and hypocrisy are why.
Great article! Thank you.
People actually care about this?
Wow.
(Once Mr. Douthat finds the answer to his question, he can turn to the burning issue of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.)
1
Jesus was not a conservative Catholic. He was not a conservative Jew. He was a progressive reformer who understood and taught out of the the spirit of his faith. He refused to adhere to dead traditionalism and reserved his fiercest criticism for those who did.
Let conservative Catholicism die a slow death into the fossilization we see in France, Quebec and Ireland. New wine needs new wine skins.
2
An ancient, corrupt, mafia-style "brotherhood" that preys upon vulnerable people, whose lives are so miserable, with mystical rites and superstition, some smoke, promises of a little bit of help, and then eventual heaven. As education, and critical thinking skills, make their way around the world, it is my hope that this Church will just abruptly fail, and recede. People realize that it's propaganda without any evidence, but they cling to it anyway. The Church is very rich; their victims are usually very poor, very young, very powerless. I will never understand why anybody needs this crutch.
2
I flamed out of the church at 13 or 14, so about '61. Almost 60 yrs of thought on this distills down to my never having seen the joy and wonderment of Christ and the church. Whenever I was in the church I was frightened. I felt that whatever I did was wrong, either in thought, deed or both. If you don't do this...X will happen. Boom! If you don't think that...Y will happen. Boom! If you question...Z will happen, Boom! X, Y & Z are all torments. No one was ever there to show me the joy of the church. Why spend this life worrying about the next one, that no one has seen. No one!! All religions are a reason to fight one another. My god is the real god and I'll fight you to prove it. Nuts! I will take a walk in the woods!
1
That picture of the 'anti abortion' march is as telling as it is absurd. There isn't a woman in sight. What a farce.
1
Note to Vatican: I'll return to the Church when the Pope is a woman and she's on the pill.
1
For Catholic conservatives to "submit private judgements to papal authority" is to ask them to do what they have demanded from their congregants for centuries. Traditionalist Catholic have gloried in their authority, forcing "teachings" into every corner of political, social, personal and spiritual life and claiming divine right to impose order. It's interesting to see how this same tactic, applied to them, is sticking in their collective craw.
This is the part of the Church that refuses to submit to civil authorities regarding criminal conduct by priests, that relies upon women to create Catholic families even as they oppress nuns, deny women equality and look away as women and children are raped. These are the churchmen who cling to their pomp and perqs while shutting women into Magdalen Laundries, scheming to evade civil judgements against priestly malefactors and shutting down churches to protect their own endowments.
Pope Francis is striving to 'put the papacy on the side' of congregants, not as a mouthpiece for clerics. The people in the pews ARE the Church, and a constant papal preference for the structure of the Church over the substance has led to schism between priest and flock over basic tenets of right and wrong as well as the unbridled corruption of the Vatican Bank and the worldwide stink of priestly rape.
If the Church wants to restimulate faith, it must first purge clericalism, entitlement and bigotry. These conservatives are in the way.
2
It's perhaps too much to expect a deeply serious Roman Catholic to see beyond the charmed circle of his Church, but the problems he's talking about also be-devil what's left of Western Protestantism, including what's left of Anglican Christianity.
I don't remotely doubt that the real issue is what it means to be a Christian anymore, and on this point among Protestants, my heart goes to those who are bewildered and confused by all the glib and empty gestures liberal Protestantism is making to the culture radicals, in and out of the churches. Those people are either drifting to other Churches, including the Catholic Church, or leaving altogether--OR sticking around in Churches where such issues as abortion and gay rights simply don't intrude into the weekly round of life.
The great Lutheran theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer--who before he was murdered by Hitler's toadies, wrote his Ethics at a Benedictine Monastery in Ettal, Germany--Bonhoeffer included in his famous lectures on Christology that "Christ dwells in the silent places of the Church." For some reason that dictum makes much, much more sense to me than it did when I first read it.
Above all, the real horror will happen when masses of Christians wake up and ask themselves whether Christ himself has abandoned communities that calls themselves Churches.
1
Sorry if I’m rude to the faithful laity, but arguments about conservative vs. progressive trends in the Catholic Church seem like Nero fiddling while Rome burns. These are really trivial issues ( I know, I know) compared to the Church’s existential issues of constant, widespread and clearly systemic pedophilia, massive and gross financial corruption, and membership numbers that are in free-fall.
A year ago, I asked a local priest, “Why do you need a larger parking lot?”
“Ah, it’s for the size of the funerals,” he responded. “We need more space for the funerals.”
“Not for baptisms?” I asked.
He looked at me sadly and said, “No, not for baptisms.”
474
Conservative Catholics can start a church that follows what they believe - freedom of religion. That is what humans have always done - if a religion doesn’t match what you believe, make one that does.
147
@Helen Liggett
Exactly. So worship me and send me the money.
33
@Helen Liggett Visit the spectacular Vatican, and see the riches of the catholic church, which are anything but humble, and do not have anything to do with Jesus.
To me, I was reminded of Mel Brooks, as mayor in Blazing Saddles, "We've gotta protect our phony-baloney JOBS!"
29
@Helen Liggett
"...if a religion doesn’t match what you believe, make one that does." Exactly right. Human history shows that human beings are the authors (believers in) of their own religions, including their god(s). Then they pretend it's the other way around, and begin to worship these objects of their own creation. Thus, the world's people have created thousands of religions and gods to believe in, with each being, of course, true. The followers claim they believe because their religions are true. I say they are "true" because they believe them.
49
Mr. Douthat wrote, in part: "As conservative resistance to Francis has grown more intense, it has also grown more marginal. . . "
You could remove "to Francis" from that statement and decontextualize it outside of Catholicism, and it still applies.
When conservative movements are willing to stand in opposition to both on the ground lived truth as well as scientifically established truth that proves certain doctrine to be untenable, they will become marginalized.
Conservative Catholics are responsible for the very worst marginalization of the faith, and represent its worst impulses. The worst of those impulses is insisting that Church tradition *is* the truth, rather than just "the way we've always done things," which must be reviewed and altered to keep any individual or institution alive and moving forward.
3
To answer the question in the headline: Hopefully it dies.
9
Ross Douhat doesn't mention that Catholics believe in the Holy Spirit "who has spoken though the prophets". So who is the
prophet here---Burke or Francis
3
If one child had been sexually abused at Occupy Wall Street, every Occupy camp in the country would have been the scene of mass arrests. They would have arrested everyone and sorted out the innocent while they sat in jail. (This is not far from what happened without any child abuse.)
All of the evidence shows that the Catholic Church has been operating as a international child sex ring for at least a hundred years, and probably a thousand years. No one that looks at the sheer numbers of cases in every state and every continent could rationally deny this.
The Catholic Church is not moral. It is anti-moral. It gathers vast wealth to itself while it lets its flock go hungry, abuses their children, abuses its nuns, and covers up its crimes.
Still U.S. presidents and the Senate keep putting Catholics (even accused of sexual abuse) on the Supreme Court to interpret our Constitution and morality for the USA. They do this because the Catholic Church is more than willing to justify war and greed in the name of Jesus Christ, who opposed both.
This corruption will not be rooted out from the top down, not even by Francis.
If the Catholic laity is more than play things and a money supply for an international criminal organization, it is time for them to throw the child abusing, money changers from the Temple and begin again.
Sorry for my blatant honesty, but I feel no need to go easy on an organization whose motto is "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius."
6
This column assumes that the Catholic Church is an institution worth saving, at least in it's present form. If you enjoy extravagant displays of polished sophistry and self-serving political machinations by repressive paternalistic old white guys you better get it while you can.
6
Why does anyone care what will happen to a religion that purports to be Christian but let its leaders routinely abuse its members and then compound those criminal acts by covering them up on a global scale? It’s ridiculous.
4
There is no Man In The Sky, and debating the teachings of pope vs cardinal is like agonizing over the finer points of Scientology. Religion is increasingly relegated to uneducated people and countries.The NYT and its columnists should call this out, and be a force for facts and reason in the world. If not them, who?
3
It's tiring to read of this exclusive men's club and its in-group fighting.
3
Maybe people should stop believing in the make-believe stories that are sold by a international criminal conspiracy that shields pedophiles.
5
Spoken like a true adult convert. Let's go back to the latin mass and fasting before communion. How many of these pet columns like this do we have to read.
8
Pope Francis is the most Christ-like Pope in my lifetime.
6
Ross, your views on Catholicism remind me of that white sepulchre filled with nothing but a dead spirit that “someone” once described. Open your heart and your mind. You will be surprised by a rushing in of love and compassion for others...as well as allowing the Wholly Other to be the One who guides those silly dogmatic creatures called humans.
2
Wait a minute, did I just wake up in the 16th century...
The church that consecrates a wafer as the trans incarnation of God....is in crisis?
4
The various crises within Catholicism reflects society's falling away from religions world wide, including Islam, Judaism, all Christian sects... Religion depends on mysticism, ritual, unsubstantiated promises of an after life, an afterlife worth sacrificing for right now, even an afterlife worth killing your neighbor because the neighbor is some how in the way of your after life promised happiness. What a mess! But, little by little, civilization is cleaning it up, mopping and sweeping it away. Thank gods!
2
The story from John 8 of the the woman caught in adultery is a central one for understanding the Pope's very human approach to his ministry, and he caused much consternation when he referred to it - "Who am I to judge?" Before Jesus challenged orthodoxy by calling for the one who is without sin to cast the first stone, he ignored the crowd, bent down, and wrote silently in the dirt with his finger. Perhaps that detail is included to show future reformers the importance of waiting, so others can understand the wisdom of what is to come.
1
Doesn't the Catholic Church have bigger problems to fix?
5
Too bad Cardinal Burke never married. I wonder how he would manage a family of six, on an annual US$68,000, with a stay-at-home wife. Bet he wouldn't be worried about about the Pope's policies.
From a Recovering Catholic, this is my conundrum: If Mary was conceived of the holy spirit, what is Jesus' DNA?
4
Ross, you don't seem to understand the meaning of 'conservative', as it seems you use it in place of the term stubborn.
1
Another Douthit editorial on Catholicism. I see from the comments that some people actually read these stories; otherwise, I wouldn't believe anyone did.
5
Really? Is the catholic church even relevant? I'm sure I'll never set foot in one again.
7
This article only reinforces my decision to leave the Catholic Church and live as a Christian without old white men telling me the “correct” way to worship.
3
As a person who was raised Catholic and is a current person of reason, I find this whole article laughable.
Splitting hairs over arcane orthodoxy completely obscures the fact that this is a religion that has perpetuated rampant sexual abuse and continues to relegate women to second class citizenry - all under the guise of supernatural deity who supposedly determines your eternal placement.
Mr. Douthat, you might want to consider looking at the forest through the trees.
1
What will happen to conservative catholicism? Do serious people really care?
3
How many Catholic consider themselves "conservative" and how many of them are women under the age of 50?
Based on a quick search, American Catholic nuns are dying out and the average age for an American priest is something like 65. I just wonder who Ross' conservative Catholics are in America? Opus Dei?
What will happen to it? I don't know...die, I hope? And stop oppressing women, covering up for abusers, and idealizing celibacy?
3
What "will" happen to conservative Catholics?
Nothing. It already happened.
All that is left is for the last few survivors to die off, the same way all failed ideas eventually disappear.
3
For the sake of women, gay people, children in the church, and the health of the entire planet, let's hope Conservative Catholicism goes the way of all flesh.
1
When the church begins to turn over to police those in its ranks accused of raping children, give me a call.
Until then, I am not in the least interested in any other discussion about the catholic church.
1
Hoping "conservative" Catholicism will fade away permanently.
1
Angels on the head of a pin Ross. We'll be better off when magical thinking is replaced with rational humanistic thought processes.
No women, no married men, but sexual predators welcome? Nice pitch.
What Will Happen to Conservative Catholicism?
It got exposed!
2
It is patently absurd to write 1200 words about the future of Catholicism and not mention the Church's complete inability to handle the systematic sexual abuse of children that has been going on for hundreds of years.
Like the Church, Mr. Douthat is disconnected from reality and, in essence, debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. No rational person should pay him any attention.
I would let anyone of these "believers" watch my grandchildren or my dog.
What will happen to the generations of children abused and scarred by Conservative Catholicism?
3
Sorry but conservative Catholicism is, at least in the US, irrelevant at best.
1
Looking at the first photo....I don't see a woman anywhere...
1
I find Ross Douthat's articles inteersting but I have to question how many people really care about this topic? There is so much else going on in our country and our society that he comes across as someone out of touch with reality.
An odious group of deadenders trying to stand in the way of the future, of their own religion. Hurting people along the way.
1
I do believe God would declare that his home is open to all.
2
All I can say is that the comments are a lot better than the column.
5
If Christ were to came back to earth anytime soon, the last thing He would be would be a conservative Catholic
4
No wonder that the Catholic Church is divided into two camps.
It is the Conservatives who covered up the sexual child abuse, that would give the rich annulments when they obviously consummated their marriages(once the only reason you could be granted an Annulment) who aid and abetted the Nazis in WWll, that have stolen from the Vatican Bank and turned their backs on members who were LBGT.
It is economic considerations that prevents Priests from marrying
It was concern that if Church members were allowed to use Birth Control, this would lead to fewer members, thereby diminishing Catholic membership from increasing in numbers.
The Church is now reaping the fruits of its hypocrisy.
1
I interviewed Bishop Burke for my high school newspaper, the Aquinas News. Good to know his views have not changed one iota.
As the great Cardinal Bernard Law so aptly stated (I paraphrase), modern society is the enemy of the Church. The popularity of this view inside the leadership of the "Church" was self-evident considering his station. Conservative Catholicism - the home of the Inquisition - is simply those people bound together by common enemies rather than a common love. Those people aren't going anywhere. And they have their facilitators in the clergy. They will wait - like hate usually does - to get their chance.
1
Change is part of the tradition of the Catholic Church. For example, Joan of Arc was tried for heresy and executed in 1431. She was canonized in 1920 and is now a saint.
Perhaps one day in the future Judas will be canonized. The suffering of Jesus was necessary to redeem humanity from sin,. If Judas hadn't pointed Jesus out to the Romans, there would have been no crucifixion--and therefore, no salvation.
Ross, If Cardinal Burke were a true conservative Catholic, he would adhere to all traditional Catholic Doctrine, rather than cherry picking the elements of Doctrine that he chooses to follow. And yes, I am talking about the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility, among many others. For starters, at the very least, Burke needs to stop trying to undermine the duly elected head of the Church. And not to put too fine a point on it, but the notion of Cardinal Burke as "guileless" is totally betrayed by the Cardinal's words and actions.
1
Authoritarianism of the Church is losing its hold as societies are changing. The “because I say so” approach is not as strong as it used to be.
1
Mr. Douthat seems excessively worried about debates over deck chair arrangements while the Catholic ship is sinking rapidly (pardon the overworked meme). These inside debates aren't spreading the Gospel, or promoting justice, mercy and humility (Micah 6:8).
2
Sorry, but the church is gaining adherents in the third world
How does any institution walk away from centuries of policies that included physical torture, death, excommunication and even condemnation to eternal suffering for people ranging from rebellious non believers to unrepentant meat eaters on a sabbath? While back-tracking from biblical assertions with the term ‘allegories’, the faith is still based on Old Testament writings that make plausibility difficult at best.
2
After years of being intensely devout and a student of theology, I am now a lapsed Catholic, though I have great respect for people of faith. But I still regularly attend a mass that has a small following. I find the warmth of the community gathered and the music a salve to the soul. It seems to strip away the numbing to, or the pain of, the abuse we inflict upon one another. If only for a brief time, I am spiritually reminded of and comforted by goodness that can somehow remain alive from within...unlike some religions, or at least a portion of its followers, that are a contradiction --- i.e. really are about status and wealth in this world when they proclaim a selfless, other-worldly man as their savior. And so now as I look at the Church, I wonder why some models of it seem to take such precedence over others. For instance, there is the institutional church, which many of Ross's stories explore. By its very definition, this aspect of the Church is not about the soul, spirituality; it is about men making very human, and therefore somewhat flawed, decisions. Why should Catholicism always obsess about this? Why shouldn't this (wasted) energy be directed in nurturing the community, exploring and expanding spirituality and living the Gospel in service to each other. And this doesn't solely mean helping those we consider impoverished? After all, we are all impoverished in some way. This doesn't mean to be moral relativists; it does mean the greatest gift will always be love.
3
What conservative christians see as dogma, many people see as punishment.
The sanctity of marriage, no matter how much damage the married couple might be doing to themselves and their children, just drives the sins into coverups and denial.
As other commenters point out, Jesus was a radical, turning over the conservatives who used religion to get rich and to consolidate power.
More Jesus, less dogma, might give Catholics an extended run.
5
Is this historical fiction, science fiction, or some jargon filled teenage movie? Can you imagine millenials' response to this debate? Like, what are they talking about? And why are they wearing funny hats and robes? sorry, but that's how I see it. We need to get beyond fantasy and false controls.
4
Isn’t it fascinating how the pope’s infallibility goes only as far as a congregant’s bias? It kind of deflates the notion of God as a supreme entity when the person delegated to speak for God doesn’t speak for you because you don’t like what the person says.
I’d go so far as to say it’s democratic. God is a social construct. God changes with the will of the people. Right now God’s a lot more liberal, and Catholics shouldn’t have to think very hard to understand why.
The arrogance behind the notion that the pope would lead a schism demonstrates that this has always been about power over God. Or, rather, making God speak for a band of men who think they should have all the power.
That one of them would toss a wooden statue of a pregnant woman into a river speaks volumes.
3
I would prefer to reserve the term conservative Catholicism for those who wish to preserve the best of the traditions and dogma of the church. Of course, they must realize that one of the strong traditions of the church is radical renewal, so condemning all change just for tradition's sake makes no sense.
For those like Douthat who may cite the past but are very ignorant of it, let's use the term right wing Catholics. Today he claims Pope John Paul II settled a number of issues. No scholar at the time would have regarded them as settled. Back then Douthat was converting to Pentecostalism - had he been a Catholic I am sure he would have found ways that Pope John Paul II was heretical, just as he has for Pope Francis. For that matter, in his books he writes that the vast majority of American Christians are heretics. Conservative Catholicism is not a subset of right wing Republicanism.
2
What does it mean to be Conservative? We throw that word around and it was supposed to hold a virtuous, thrifty, and moral meaning.
Today’s most vocal conservatives support a regime with none of those qualities. Are they still conservative? I would say no- we should call them former conservatives who are morally, ethically and fiscally bankrupt in every way and have lost their patriotism- trading it for racism.
2
I think that a parallel but inverse question can be asked about Steve Bannon, William Barr and Leonard Leo. What will happen to American democracy?
1
I gave up when a friend of mine, many years ago, tried to bring a priest whom she had grown up with to officiate her wedding at a different church. The priest in charge said “no one get married at my church except by me.”
I suppose I should have been more offended when an ex priest I knew explained that they would routinely break their vows, confess to each other, and get away with 10 Hail Marys.
Again and again I have seen the clergy view the church as their own boys club and personal property. Nothing holy or sacred about that. And nothing for my children to learn except hypocrisy.
2
Since Catholicism is based on an assumption that cannot be proven - that "God" exists; And the factual record clearly demonstrates how its dogma was derived by human males, it is unlikely that people who "believe" and are "conservative" have the capacity or imagination to "believe" anything different. This is what indoctrination looks like and it is no different than China uses as do all dictatorship. Roman Catholicism is only barely compatible with the principles of the US Constitution, which was fashioned mostly by Deists, who were far less constrained in thought and perspective that Roman Catholics are allowed to be.
Mind control is still mind control even dressed up in rituals.
No other species on this planet needs a "God" to behave itself.
3
What is unchanging certainly can’t be altered by an individual pontiff: “The pope is not a revolutionary."
So the infallible pope cannot alter fundamental tenets of the Church he heads, but our entirely too fallible president can do anything he wants without challenge.
Got it.
1
Mr. Douthat describes a Catholic church embroiled in a conservative vs. liberal conflict. Wait until the church finally confronts a truly traumatic experience, and that is its ultimate rejection of the doctrine that life begins at conception. Under this 1968 doctrine, all types of contraception were banned, which led to the tragic decision of the church to deny condoms to African nations struggling to control the AIDS crisis.
The doctrine also led to the ineluctable conclusion that any attempt to abort a zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus was an act of murder. Catholic women from the inception of this doctrine disobeyed the church and continued to use modern birth control. But the idea that abortion was murder caught on, and when Catholics realized that the rest of the world was still practicing abortion, the laity came to the inevitable conclusion that a dreadful holocaust of babies was occurring. Anti-abortion campaigns turned into a holy crusade to stop mass murder, at the voting both if necessary.
The rest of the world (other than American Evangelicals and Mormons), never accepted this doctrine. Francis dares not discuss it, but ultimately a future pope is going to have to tell what is left of the laity that the church was terribly wrong. The development of human life is not a black/white matter. There are many gray areas, and difficult decisions must be left to those intimately involved, which excludes any Catholic priest from the process.
2
You said: "And the church’s saints from such periods include bishops who stood alone in defense of orthodoxy, sometimes against misguided papal pressure."
Have been reading your friend Wiegel's most recent book Russ. He points out that it works the other way too. Theologians silenced earlier by the Vatican became key figures at Vatican II. Cardinal Newman, btw, at least for Wiegel is to be counted among the progressives, and was always suspect among the boys downtown as never really converting from Anglicanism.
But you're right, it's all happened before.
Please do me a favor. Discourage the on-line conservative detractors (detraction, detraction and calumny-I can go traditional as well-are serious sins. The constant undermining of our pope on-line is scandalous, and worse represent the insinuation of American culture wars into the life of the Church.
At some point, Cardinal Burke would do well to read or reread Papal Encyclicals written since 1891. And as a whole, the US Bishops would do a better job in their pastoral role teaching such above mentioned encyclicals.
1
So, conservative Catholics are passionately fighting to prohibit divorce, exclude women from ordination, and forbid priests from marrying. What aren't they passionate about? What aren't they devoting their time and resources to fighting? The worldwide sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests. Trying to heal the wounds of those victims. Countering fundamental and systematic discrimination against women, which causes untold damage to Catholic parishioners and to the world. It seems to me that their real God - their real love - is power. And, bigotry has been a faithful servant of that God.
8
Organized religion is the problem. Man made. A business with bosses and workers. Nothing but group think. Just like political parties and sports teams. Organized religion has nothing to do with spiritual religion. Trump is the antithesis of spiritual religion. But he is the champion of organized religion. And i lump ALL organized religions in this basket. What would the true Christ think if he saw that aberration that is today’s Christian religions?
4
From birth through young adulthood, I received RC indoctrination.
The conservative version that came with the Pope Pius times. As a boy I seriously thought I'd become a Priest.
But somewhere around 15 I had learned enough of life, reality, and ways thinking to start using my head for myself.
Blame the Brothers/Priests that taught me outside of religious classes. Exceptionally caring, interesting, accomplished, and rational men, they pushed me to think deeply, honestly, rationally. I respect these fine men highly to this day!
At 15 I did NOT became in my my mind a super genius. No, I associated/worked with fine adults through my young life and I knew I hardly knew anything! But I had learned to learn and not wallow in my own arrogant ignorance.
At about 15 I seriously started to apply the rules of facts, good philosophy, logic, and the scientific method to weigh my conclusions against others'.
Most RCC dogma/doctrine started to come up short and silly.
I could not maintain the intellectual dishonesty, vapidity, bad psychology. internal inconsistency, , and cognitive dissonance required to be a faithful RC. By about 19 ditto for being a believer in god!
But the JC teachings I hold dear are these: love thy neighbor as thyself, respect god's creation, and don't value your money/power over the needs of less fortunate.
Those ACTUALLY comport with reality in a scientific sense!
Pope Francis is just CORRECTLY playing JC on Earth as far as this RC atheist sees it!
3
If "conservative" Catholics think Christianity is about being a Republican in the United Stated, they can join any number of mega-church evangelical congregations, follow any number of charismatic charlatans, and feel fully vindicated in their idolatry of power and money.
4
Speaking as a former Conservative Catholic and Steubenville grad, Conservative Catholicism is stale, stuck in nostalgia, a constipated interpretation of scholasticism, and fear.
The reality is that very few questions in the history of the Church are easily "settled" for good. The entirety of Biblical and Christian history, from the prophets of the Old Testament to Jesus, from the first proclamation of the resurrection by Mary Magdalene to the cowardly apostles to Dorothy Day, is a story of radical renewal by questioning outsiders and rebels and of authorities who fail and fall into the dust of their own hubris. This is the tradition Pope Francis is calling upon, though he might very well find himself facing downfall eventually as well, as "humbling the mighty" seems to be God's fairly consistent MO .
Why should the old church establishment of JPII, which protected child abusers and viciously suppressed Catholic academia and dissent, especially that of women, escape the fate of Saul and the Pharisees?
And maybe this is a good time to question the entire idea of an infallible Pope in Rome, an idea that was utterly foreign to the early church. The Eastern Orthodox churches could probably offer some insights into a different, and much older ecclesiology.
Maybe it is just time for the traditionalist Cult of John Paul II to finally let go, move on, and to seek higher things.
I did, well over a decade ago, and my faith hasn't just remained intact, it has thrived.
2
Raymond Burke is the modern-day equivalent of the Pharisees who were more interested in legalism and power than carrying out the spirit of love in the law.
3
I say, why limit the Catholic Church's conservatism to divorce and marriage equality? Let's bring back the Spanish Inquisition, and selling of indulges (so that someone like Trump can convert and buy some real estate in Heaven).
5
Right now our world is burning and we have a criminal president. Everything is falling apart. But this is what matters to Mr. Douthat. I imagine Mr. Douthat trying to discuss this on the bow of the Titanic as it angled down into the Atlantic, seemingly oblivious to the screams.
1
While the paternity of the Catholic Church fight over utter nonsense, the naked, pregnant, wanton Mary. The world and its inhabitants live an increasing frustrating world with little control. There, in a nutshell, is the entire meaning of religion, life without human control. As the floods, famines and fires rage we lack control, so our fathers convince us to pray. Pray to the gods, goddesses, and hope for change.
These men sit in their gilded churches and worry about how to punish the little people, the wanton women, the little girls.
Ross, stop worrying about the Catholic Church, the world is melting, on fire, flooded with the cruelty and inhumanity of men. Prayer will not help us survive.
1
I am all in favour of conservative Catholicism. It will speed up the last gasps of one of the mainstays of an anachronistic holdover from days gone by: religion. Many gods down, one to go.
4
Ross quotes T.S. Eliot: "the faith and the hope and the love are all in the waiting."
Women, about 51% of the world's population, have been waiting for admission to the old boy's club for 2,000 years.
2
Catholicism in turmoil...as it should. Based on beliefs incongruent with what we now know, need and want, and take for granted and backed by science; fanaticism is being questioned...if not condemned, if we claim to love each other, as we are, flaws and all or because of them, a more humane view of life and the universe we inhabit. Humility, not arrogance, is what's needed today, if any redemption is hoped for, to atone for so much harm we have cased to our brethren in the past.
The European and North American cash flows are shutting down.
There are parishes facing bankruptcy.
The church should be facing RICO.
What will have to be done to get the gravy train back on track?
How will the business model adapt?
How may angels can dance on the head of a pin doesn't matter. Its all about the money.
Its hatred, yes that's the correct choice of word for its doctrinaires, its hatred of the Other has put me off to the Catholic Church for as long as I can remember. The damage it has done in the name of doctrinal purity is breathtaking. I do not see this Church as one of Love and Light but one of endless Rules and fostering Hate.
I say let those who believe in its bondage stay tied eternally to it, but keep these people off the Supreme Court and out of public life.
2
It seems that the Pope's authority is un-questionable, unless it's too liberal for some. If authority-obsessed conservative Catholicism is on the wane, it can't come soon enough. Those conservative Catholics can take comfort from knowing they've saddled the United States with an Opus Dei-dominated Supreme Court. Perhaps those Justices can declare one of themselves an "alternative" Pope.
2
"What Will Happen to Conservative Catholicism?"
Hopefully it will go quietly into the good night, taking the Vatican and all its ancient doctrines and rituals with it.
The world will be a far better place if there were no religions and humanity could focus on the rule of law.
1
I admire Mr. Douthat’s intelligence, but I have to say: this comes awfully close to debating how many angels dance on the head of a pin. Organized religion is losing members in droves. The Church in America, I believe, would consist mainly of old folks except for the influx of Hispanics. We have a president who is waging a war against God’s 10 Commandments and Jesus’ Golden Rule. He has just committed criminal acts in an attempt to smear a political opponent, and worse, sponsored the vicious character assassination of a professional diplomat, while lying about all of it.
And the Church is fixated on priestly celibacy, divorce, and Papal authority? And Ross Douthat does not get it that it is these obsessions that are rendering the Church increasingly irrelevant to ordinary citizens? Younger Americans are turning their backs, not on the teachings of Jesus, but on the hypocrisy of ”Christians” who fail miserably to live according to his principles.
Just a thought, Mr. Douthat. Whatever the Church does about divorce, celibacy, and abortion, how about its seeking rejuvenation by having its pulpits thunder every Sunday with rousing denunciations of the lies, adultery, slander, racism, xenophobia, and misogyny that emanate daily from the White House? You know, a positive reaffirmation of the rules against bearing false witness and committing adultery, and in favor of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you?
How’s that for that ol’ time religion?
2
Obvious question. It will wither away in complete irrelevance. It already has. Mention the Catholic Church to a young well-educated person and you get an eye roll. When will we wake up and end the tax deductability of contributions to religious organizations that is a clear violation of the separation of church and state? Allowing our tax dollars to support a corrupt misogynist scandal-ridden organization is an affront to all Americans.
4
Isn't the phrase 'conservative catholicism' an oxymoron? This perpetuation of 'conservatism' within the Catholic church is largely from those who misunderstand their religion. The conservatives have alternatives in the many other Christian sects. Also, the hush-hush behind many of the misdeeds by officers of the Catholic church are self-proclaimed 'conservatives.' The sooner they're weeded out, the better it'll for the Catholic church, which can then go back to being 'worldly' and all-encompassing, as 'catholic' suggests.
2
"Behold I am making all things new" (Rev 21:5). There is naked self-interest in an ultra-conservative Catholic worldview that for decades asserted infallibility of the pope & the subsequent (il)logical contortions of conservative commentators when they disagree w/ papal words now. This is the true idolotry (rather than inculturation w/ images of the Andean Pachamama): the replacement of the primacy of the bishop of Rome with conservatives' political self-interest. All while acting that the sensus fidelium, the sense of the People of God on matters of faith and morals, has never had a place in Catholic theology. Looking to Cardinal Burke as an authority for interpreting Catholic teaching on gender & sexuality can't be separated from his dehumanization of LGBT persons while parading a flair for drag (long gone ecclessial dress involving lace, gloves) or being referred to as "she" by his inner clerical circle (as reported in mainstream press). The joy of redemption is far more evident in the real lives of LGBT communities than in contradictions of Burke's closeted-public drag performance lacking the awareness/authenticity of the queens who convoke & celebrate our communities. A bishop known for biting commentary well associated in clerical culture w/ the "queens" of a gender/sexually repressed strand of Catholic clerics is not the most authentic interpreter of the workings of the Holy Spirit. Veni Creator Spiritus - Come Creator Spirit - you who make all things new.
2
This essay is all but incomprehensible. The Church is heading for one of two things: liberalisation, or irrelevance.
Somebody needs to inform Douthat that the Church no longer has any temporal 'authority' to enforce its doctrine: it exists solely on the backs of people willing to salute its ideas. The Church will rise or fall on the quality of its ideas and its ability to persuade: NOT on its moral 'authority'--whatever that means in the age of pedophile priests, Magdalene Laundries, orphans bought, sold, and abused, widespread financial malfeasance, and princes of the Church who live in wealth beyond the dreams of Croesus.
5
@Comp
Of princes and wealth .... true story from a dear pal, ex co-worker, Italian, raised Catholic in S. Philadelphia.
As a young Army officer in 1960 he visited a village in Italy where his father was raised before coming here.
My friend saw the local Catholic church had gold-plated items in the church but people in the village had no running water in their homes.
The disparity was too much to bear; he left the Catholic Church and is happy in his Episcopal church.
Seems not much has changed between clerics who take a vow of poverty and the people who actually live in it.
The church is on a road to nowhere. Goodbye.
2
Ross, the religious pedestal you put yourself on is low and crumbling. Quit telling people how they should live their lives.
The most beautiful freedom associated our democracy is the freedom to cast off the worst or all constraints of various religions if we so choose. It is the single most telling evidence that the human race is advancing positively, if unevenly, over the centuries.
How far back in time do you want to go? Who are you to judge???
3
Admirable of Ross to follow these controversies and attempt to explain them. However, anyone who has read church history knows that the papacy has been a very long succession of gangsters. In this respect Francis is a breath of fresh air. John Paul and Benedict showed their true colors by covering up the widespread sexual abuse of children by priests on every continent. In the US this depravity was accompanied by political hardball, such as archbishops excommunicating politicians who did not kiss the ring. Interesting that some of those same church leaders have been taken down for their corruption by the law.
1
The self-named doubly wise prove themselves not to be so with acceptance of organized revealed religion. Those religions are a frenzy of fear and self-sabotage writ large in mental confusion, an argument against our species common sense and the abnegation of the rampant intelligence of the planet.
I am angry with the Catholic Church. and sadly have not attended mass for two decades. The church has robbed me of this special experience, but it has not changed my deep faith in the teachings of Christ in the New Testament. Their attitude is not unlike that of other Christian conservatives-their living faith is built on a foundation of hypocrisy.
Here are just two examples:
1. Sexual abuse - the priests and nuns committing this crime should be in jail. The church and those in power continue to protect them and ignore the victims of sexual assault.
2. Birth control - Not only does the church deny a woman and her family access to birth control, but fails to fight hard enough for the protection of the child and family once born.
They should be the largest social activist community. Instead the fight is for the unborn and the irony is that a pregnancy could have been prevented with proper sexual education and health care support.
I don't have the time to discuss the fake leadership of many of our conservative politicians. Shame on them.
5
The sooner that the entire church listens to Pope Francis, who IS our Pope. the better off the Church AND the world will be.
1
@operacoach
I hope they don’t listen to Francis, who continues the practice of turning over sex criminals only to church authorities, and not to law enforcement. He’s part of the problem.
1
Mr. Douthat, in your list of Pope Paul’s “permanently settled debates over celibacy, divorce, intercommunion and female ordination” you left out birth control - more important for Catholics (and the rest of our over populated world) than the other issues you mentioned.
2
This is a debate that interests fewer and fewer people in a shrinking Church. Far from being small-c catholic, conservatives view the Church as a fortress that admits only those who adhere to their strictures and narrow definition of spirituality. Very little wonder that regular Mass attendance has declined precipitously with each generation (which was not the case in decades past; https://news.gallup.com/poll/232226/church-attendance-among-catholics-resumes-downward-slide.aspx) and can be extrapolated to approach zero in the next few generation.
1
So many comments blithely dismiss the Church as some sclerotic anachronism in our post modern paradise. First world bubble all the way. Those cruise ship stops have real people beyond the wire fences.
Pews are filled and humming down in the Great South where, sorry Ross, they love Pope Francis. Faith is strong where excessive wealth has not driven people to individualism and self-fulfillment.
141
@keith Well said. I am pleasantly surprised to see intelligent, nuanced thought put into writing.
12
@keith Well, no, it is the widespread sexual scandals and corruption that has given people pause. Don't think those issues can be dismissed as trivial matters bounced about in an echo chamber of "First Worlders"
Otherwise, there is much in terms of practices and doctrine that probably merit debate. At a minimum, not having women priests certainly seems to go against the idea that we are all God's children.
The last sentence sounds odd - evokes talk of the Interwar years, when the church proved accommodating to fascist regimes.
43
As all conservatives prove, now beyond a shadow of a doubt in the Age of Trump - their "conservative principles" are merely excuses for self-righteousness, their teachings are more and more transparent lies, and their "holiness" merely corruption. How do we know this? It's called their support for Donald.
4
Catholic Elementary School.
Catholic High School.
Catholic College.
Catholic Graduate School
Then: lector, Campus Ministry, volunteer in youth activities, church fundraising, parish council, altar society, mission guild, etc.
Ditto for my children, adding in Catholic Law School and CCD teacher.
In the final chapter of my life I have left the church. Orthodox conservative thinking became painfully suffocating for my pilgrim soul. My six decade struggle to somehow accept this structure that employs specious logic to subjugate half the human race has ended and I am at peace at last. A quiet, personal decision that was matched one-by-one by my daughters. Ironically, my rigorous Catholic Education taught me to think. From as early as eight years old I could not accept that women were ineligible for ordination, held no positions of authority or “power” in the church and that any effort to change that was met with a scolding along the lines of “you are disrespecting the most important role of all, that of a wife and mother, having and raising children........” and other illogical reasoning even a child could counter.
It is true, the gospels never change. Like any text, there can be different interpretations of their exact meaning line by line, but the central heart of them is Jesus’ model of unconditional love, kindness, charity, generosity, devotion, inclusion and outreach to all in need. Ross and friends debate orthodoxy. My crew peacefully lives the gospel. God will judge.
911
@Joanna Stasia - Ross Douthat is worrying about how to save the conservative Church, while many of its most active members self-schism. The Church will live on, without very many adherents.
26
@Joanna Stasia There are many, many of us just like you. Fear not. I doubt you do.
81
@Joanna Stasia I still attend Mass but my faith is much like yours. Priestly celibacy is not biblical, it's simply a choice. Ordaining women is past due.
96
If the ideas of someone such a Cardinal Burke were compelling, then there would be no fear of a few years of a Francis papacy. The liberal ideas from John XXIII did not disappear during John Paul II and his conservative successors. And these traditions are the traditions of men and they often have no basis in the new testament. Christianity existed for more than 1,000 years without clerical celibacy. We know that the early church had many female leaders.
492
Catholic conservatives, albeit all religious conservatives apparently, seem to want an authoritarian, rules-based organization that chooses who can belong and who can't. It is a merit-based system that seeks to exclude rather than include which seems antithetical to Christ's teachings. That impulse to control and exclude vs the message of scripture is what's driving people from churches. The reality is that we are all less than perfect including, as we now surely know, the clergy and hierarchy. Until church conservatives can see that we are people hungering for community, acceptance and belonging, the church will continue to lose members.
830
@Ann There is sometimes a misinterpretation when it comes to what Catholic conservatives want. Yes, they would like the organization to be rule based, and thus excluding some who would otherwise join our Church. But they believe that these rules are not made by men, but are divinely instituted by Christ. He appointed Peter (and thus his successors) to be caretaker of His Church, not to be an authoritarian ruler. When those few in the hierarchy, such as His Eminence Cardinal Burke, hold firm in what the Church has always taught to be the continued teaching of Christ, they are criticized as being "controlling" or unaccepting to its members or potential members. But it's actually the modern bishop or cardinal who seems to want some amount of control when he tries to change doctrine - saying to himself that he knows better than Christ. So I agree that the Church could be more pastoral in Her approach, but that should not be at the cost of conceding to untruths. I wonder if those who do not want to be apart of the Church actually wanted the Church in the first place, but rather, a human organization with the benefits of being in a community. A Catholic must put their sacramental life before such human aspects. After all it's the grace conferred from the sacraments that cures us (slowly) from our imperfections. God Bless,
- Alex
11
@Alex
Then how do you explain the appearance of the celibacy requirement?
66
@Alex I can see by your reply that you are very devoted to the church and its structure. That said, many of us no longer believe as you do and find the magisterial decrees no longer realistic or valid in our modern times. For example, with all we now know about women and equality it makes no sense to keep women from being ordained simply because "Jesus only chose men" to be his apostles. How do we really know that is historically correct or was God's intention? And what about contraception? That ship sailed a long time ago for the vast majority of Catholics.
159
The Jesuits have always been the frontline teachers and educators of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis being a Jesuit himself, is educating the church for a better way.
I'm a parishioner and in my 76 years, conservative priests have in my opinion, done more harm than good. And are a big reason the Catholics have left the church in droves here in the U.S.
I hope to never see a conservative, traditionalist priest again. I see no difference between them and people claiming to be nationalists. They look inside rather than outside.
1041
@cherrylog754 I too am a supporter of the Jesuits. Other than my friends who have become Sisters of Mercy, it is the Jesuit order only which I can relate to. With too many of the clergy, I feel as if the Church is stagnant and so out of touch with the challenges of today’s society.
46
@cherrylog754
Over the years, I have watched many Catholic friends join me in leaving the church. Some have joined other churches, others are secular. I have joined a local episcopal church where a large percentage of its members are former Catholics. How can any woman continue to belong to a church that considers her unequal to a man?
87
Is the Pope infallible ? Or not ? And who decides ? That seems to be the question.
And the Conservative Catholic bureaucracy claims yes when it suits their man-written dogma & no when it might nudge them from such power.
Otherwise there would not be, as Douthat points out, separate versions of orthodoxy depending on region.
Talk about mansplaining.
2
Mr. Douthat;
Frances is the closest I've seen to adherence to the teachings of Jesus Christ in my long life.
Jesus was a liberal who fed the hungry and healed the afflicted, like liberals.
Liberals follow the teachings of Jesus.
Conservatives follow the teachings of the church.
1410
@PATRICK Jesus gave his own life; it wasn't taken from Him by the Internal Righteousness Service to redistribute righteousness from Him to us. He fed the hungry by miracles and gifts; he healed the afflicted by His own power, not by subsidizing insurance companies including government ones. Voluntary giving is Christian. Giving what belongs to other people is a totally bogus 'generosity,' besides the harm it often does. Jesus is libertarian, and generous on that basis.
10
@PATRICK
Amen Patrick. I love your last two lines. The best observation so far.
53
@PATRICK AKA "Protestants"?
Welcome aboard!
8
One thing is for sure: if in past times such differences would have resulted in massive amounts of blood being spilled, today it will be only ink.
And for that we can be grateful.
191
It seems obvious that most of the conservatives/ reactionaries Douthat describes are simply uncomfortable with or fearful of the evolution of modern society. They like the warm comfort of staying inside a group of likeminded people, and of leaders who reinforce their beliefs and prejudices.
Every religion decides what its followers believe, and usually documents the tenets of that belief as doctrine, typically based on the religion's leaders' interpretation of ancient, inherited sacred texts (or sometimes not so ancient). The interpretation may be loose, literal, or (most often) somewhere in between. When leaders begin to differ on this judgment (either of the texts themselves, of the appropriate rigidity of interpretation), the usual result is schism, and a resulting new religion.
In much the same way, each individual selects a religion. Ideally, this decision would be based on the person's judgment of the religion's doctrine—but is more commonly either simply accepted based on the religion in which the person was raised (if born into another religion, they'd very likely believe in its doctrine just as strongly), or selected because of a closer fit with the person's own prejudices.
Frankly, if some religion does somehow turn out to be the one eternal Truth, I hope it's either the Mormons or the Pagans. In their afterlife I may be greatly surprised, but at least I won't be eternally tortured.
I am a Protestant that frequents Mass on occasion when visiting different cities. I can sense an immediate difference in the spirit of the local services between the “conservative” and “liberal”
Catholic congregations. The local priest invariably signals a more, or less, welcoming presence of Christ that is very evident to an “outsider”.
I understand there is always a healthy tension in upholding the standards of the faith and accepting people where they are in their individual journey.
But , from the outside, at least, this current conflict within the Catholic Church looks a lot like the tension between Christ and the Pharisees of his day. And it isn’t just in Catholic Churches this dynamic is playing out.
I hope it’s is sorted it in a spirit of grace as another division among the faithful seems unlikely to produce a harvest of Christlike virtue for the skeptical world to observe. Another sign of the times...
3
@Matt that is an extremely anecdotal observation based on individual priest's perosnal bearing
In so many ways Christ was a liberal. He was a champion of the downtrodden and the poor and no supporter of the rich. To me that is that antithesis of modern day conservatism. So, the concept of Conservative Catholicism that focuses on the celibacy of priests and abortion, is an oxymoron. Christ preached about neither.
10
Not a Catholic (although from a Catholic family), so I have little interest in these internecine battles within a faith built on dogmatic fantasies and not realities. I can say, based on observation, that many Catholics are making their own decisions about their religion and voting with their feet. All things must evolve if they wish to survive and religion is no different. The sooner Catholicism realizes that, the better chance it'll still be relevant a century from now.
5
It is interesting to note that American conservative Catholics support the the aggregation of authority in a president like Trump - see Bill Barr - and seem to chafe at the authority of a more liberal pope who has been assigned that authority since the time of Peter. If Mr. Douthat worries about the fate of conservative Catholics, he should be. If the face of that conservatism is Bill Barr - see his Notre Dame address - or Raymond Burke, there is cause for his concern. A more liberal pope sees a congregation needing engagement, not admonishment.
12
Interesting historical parallel Ross suggests. In the 19th Century Catholic "modernists" who hung around did so, made the intellectual sacrifice, because they judged Church unity a greater good than their personal opinions. They also trusted that what was right about their opinions would eventually be vindicated--which it was. Perhaps Catholic conservatives will just have to do the same today. Leading back to Eliott: faith, hope and love, expressed as a willingness to wait.
2
The Roman Catholic Church became the unifying power of western Europe after the fall of the Roman empire. It had already been made the official religion of the Roman Empire, first by Constantine in the fourth century. It had already adopted the hierarchy of that government for its own.
Somewhere along the line, it learned that controlling the power of eternal life gave it an iron control of the entire population of all western Europe.
Over the centuries that control was attacked by Monarchs and Reformers. It fought back then with the threat of eternal separation from God. It still does.
That argument has lost its iron control. The Church seems unable to pivot. The modern world does not heed the threat anymore.
Jesus taught love. Maybe it is time for the Church to turn back its true origin.
20
Why would a Catholic God want priests to be strictly male & celibate yet allow all of the rest of God's creatures to be free to fornicate at will & live joyfully amidst the Garden of Eden (man made concept). I find it illogical that God supposedly created one man, Adam, from which Eve was fashioned from his rib (ouch!). Evolution has scientifically proven that the present day Homo Sapiens evolved from Africa over 4.4 million years ago using somewhat precise carbon dating forensics.
Ardipithecus or "Ardi" was found in the Awash Valley of Ethiopia and was the precursor to "Lucy" who is believed to be in 3.3 million year range. The exaggerated dimorphic traits (sexual) or characteristics that are so clear today (and exploited in advertisements for perfumes, clothing, plastic surgery, etc. for sexual attractiveness) were evolved from early human to allow for sexual selection leading to the evolution of sexual differences (much like peacocks, bower birds, etc.)
Therefore, I find it puzzling that someone who considers himself an intellectual can somehow rationalize the pedagogical teachings of Catholicism with the overwhelming evolutionary biology conclusions. Also, it seems that someone who continues to cling to such outdated belief systems seems to be clinging to the need for a patriarchal society in which so called "God fearing" religious men have a right to tell women of all backgrounds even (God forbid, indigenous) what they can and cannot do with their bodies.
6
@Dunca I used to ascribe Christianity to fantasy when I read the bible as history. The creation stories in Genesis can never be corroborated. So, viewing them as fact or as a mystery of faith is hard to swallow, surely.
Yet, when I view Christianity as a prescription for living in this world, it makes much more sense. No science is needed to tell me murder is wrong.
I consider myself an intellectual who chooses to ignore the bible as a history book and the Catholic dogma of priestly celibacy and other man-made rules, and instead put my faith in values such as being nice to other people, being faithful to my friends and family, and other so-called Christian values, which in fact are imbued in other religions as well.
I do wonder about those who describe themselves as intellectuals and disdain organized religion for its scientific inaccuracy. Are they instead rather shallow thinkers, or do they resent religions in order to excuse their own un-Christian behavior?
1
@Dunca: Carbon dating is limited to relatively recent times, but several other dating indices do go back millions of years. I share your bafflement that people still cling to belief that the universe was decreed into existence when the truth is so much more interesting.
1
Who cares? Very few among the NYT readership. Social justice in Latin America, the role of the church on the question of inequality, Burke, Bannon and the New/old right and the Catholic Church etc. would be more interesting and complex topics. More like this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/world/europe/vatican-steve-bannon-pope-francis.html
Not a catholic, but I think this article misses the mark. The crisis in conservative Catholicism lies in hypocrisy (e.g. the priest sex scandals) and inflexibility, not in messaging or lack of audacity.
15
This all makes so much more sense when you accept the simple reality that the Catholic Church— all churches, really— are human institutions, not divine ones.
14
I celebrate the fact that the church becomes more irrelevant. The institution is archaic, undemocratic, misogynistic...the list does shamble on.
11
I attended a Catholic elementary school, a Catholic high school, and a Catholic college. One thing all the conservative Catholics I have ever known have in common- they're either dead and gone, or they will be soon. The world goes on, in spite of what any of them ever believed, thought, or held as truth.
11
No matter who it is, The Church has to acknowledge the changing world. Huh? Women cannot be priests? Gays cannot be church members? Abortion does not exist? Get real. Or, get out.
8
Douthat converted as adult and on the top floor, alongside the likes of other noble, revered Catholics such as...Newt Gingrich.
Had Ross come of age in the church under the watchful eye of elementary school nuns instead of bishops and cardinals with their own interior decorators, he might understand what 20th century Catholicism was about.
Cardinal Burke and his mob were never interested in one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church when they had the keys to the Vatican ballroom---who cares what they think now? Let them wait a few more years for when nature throws their problems up to God and lets Him decide.
13
Wasn’t it the American conservative catholic establishment that initiated the inquisition of American Nuns? The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith investigated the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, which represents 80% of the US's 57,000 nuns: “The conference, according to the Vatican, was spending too much time doing good – and not enough time enforcing church teaching (against abortion, homosexuality etc). So, the nuns actually got in trouble for being, well, nuns. So troubled was the church by this and the women's alleged "radical feminism" that the assessment demanded the appointment of an archbishop delegate to make them behave” (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/may/24/catholic-church-inquisition-american-nuns)
13
So glad I left the church 45 years ago and never looked back
Conservative Catholicism has historically, and perhaps inevitably, aligned with immoral forces. Witness yet another contemporary example: White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney arranging a publicized meeting between President Trump and Hungary's Viktor Orban as a result of their relationship through the International Catholic Legislators Network, an organization known for its secretive gatherings of conservatives and autocrats, including our current ambassador to the Vatican, Callista Gingrich, third wife of Newt and a lifelong Catholic who admitted in court to a six-year affair while he was married to another woman.
Orban is the autocrat whose has undermined democratic institutions in Hungary and was just exposed in the Times for corrupt dealings with EU agricultural subsidies. His meeting with Trump provided international credibility while he pushed the Putin line on Ukraine. A similar White House meeting was dangled in front of the Ukraine president to bait him into tampering with domestic American politics. That's conservative Catholicism at work.
15
I'm more interested in finding out how many angels can dance on the end of a pin.
5
Former Catholic here. I really hope the Catholic Church gets its act together, realizes that the world is on fire with a climate emergency and mandates that its followers practice birth control.
If we want to leave a habitable planet for our children and grandchildren as well as leave some room for other species we need to limit our population.
"Our greatest responsibility is to be good ancestors." Jonas Salk
6
Ross, if you want a social conservative anti-pope, have at it.
4
Hopefully it will just go away. Having grown up in the religion, i would say it's about time, wouldn't you?
Conservative Catholicism makes Voodoo look rational. It would also be nice if it took Conservative Judaism with it into the sunset.
8
This piece is a how to book on why younger generations see religion as irrelevant. When your spiritual solace lies in the hands of elderly white men debating "whether a wooden statue of a naked, kneeling pregnant woman, used in a ritual on the Vatican grounds, embodied indigenous reverence for the Virgin Mary or indigenous pantheism and nature-worship," your mystical system is in deep, deep, trouble. Too bad that religions in general do not have some form of spiritual bankruptcy proceeding---where they could declare their beliefs and doctrines insolvent and then restructure themselves under new management.
14
And of course this also politically goes hand-in-glove with convictions of trump's associate and radical right conservative, Steve Bannon, who similarly believes in retrograde civilization and a return to political and religious order of ~1400AD. Bannon's efforts in the past few years---after he departed trump---to found a religious community of teacher/apostles located in an old Italian castle-like manor.
Bizarre? Yeah. But Bannon's presentation was at a Vatican conference in 2014.
4
Going by my wife's Irish-Catholic family the Catholic Church is in big trouble. Their positions are irrational and alienating the faithful.
My wife's mother still goes to mass (but had her tubes tied after child #7 in her late 40's.)
Of 7 siblings 3 still go to mass. One who is gay will not even let her child be baptized (she is married but the child was in-vitreo by donor).
Of their 13 grandchildren, only 4 still go to mass, all under 18. Odds are they will soon stop going.
With that kind of retention rate, the Catholic Church will soon be extinct. It won't matter if Conservatives or Liberals are in charge.
That retention rate guarantees extinction in a decade or two.
4
@cynicalskeptic
Similar story. Of the 4 children of an Irish Catholic family, educated in Catholic schools, zero attend mass.
Of their children, zero ever attended mass.
The only practitioner left in the family is mom. She's in her 90s, we don't rock her boat with our apostasy. Still, it must be deeply disturbing to see the collapse of a family religious identity which goes back to St. Patrick.
1
Is there an organization or institution that has done more harm over the last 2000 years than the Catholic church? The list of Catholic crimes against humanity is staggering.
7
“People say if you don’t accept that, you’ll be in schism,” Burke said, when “my point would be the document is schismatic. I’m not.”
Ridiculous.
The entire column is a bit ridiculous to me. Catholicism's relevancy seems so be lacking and the machinations of the infighting of a bunch of power hungry men just doesn't seem to warrant this column.
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools all the way through college. My amazing nuns and dedicated Jesuits taught me well - inside and outside of the classroom.
That form of Catholicism is relevant today - focus on service, love your neighbor, challenge the mind, famly. But this column? This infighting? Nonsense.
11
Sorry, but the most telling fact, repeated over and over here, is that conservative Catholicism’s opposition to Pope Francis exists pretty much online and nowhere else — a bunch of angry, lazy old people whose empty excuse for “faith” apparently hasn’t done much to address their fear of rapidly-approaching death.
So let them have their little online tantrums, shouting about angels tap-dancing on the heads of virtual pins, wallowing in lies and hate and conspiracies — the world will turn without them. They are the poor of spirit that Jesus spoke of, and they are objects of pity.
9
Does anybody but conservative retrograde types really care? Really?
6
The traditionalists have created a creature such as William Barr, who is doing things that do not please Yeshua bar Yusuf, at all. On their heads be it.
4
How many Catholics still forsake meat on Friday and only attend Latin Mass?
What do these self identified "conservatives" have to say about global warming? Sure looks like kingdom's coming fast.
Eliot, BTW, a full fledged anti-Semite, who gave up US citizenship, should not be a role model. I am not a Catholic but I remember the fate of French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre: Excommunication.
3
The conflicts seem to be about "sex, marriage and celibacy."
You know, the things that Jesus *really* cared about.
7
The conservative Catholics failed our children, women, and justice itself. How dare they speak of morality with a history such as theirs?
7
The RC church has been compromised and corrupted, alright, but NOT by modernity. The destruction of Christ's body, the church, is at the hands of "orthodoxy police" who insist on fake adherence to doctrines dating from the dark ages that have nothing to do with Jesus. These unmodifiable man-made rules insure that the church is full of hypocrites, fakes, liars, and abusers pretending to be pure. Modernity is reality. The church must come out of the dark ages to live.
6
It would seem from this column that sex is the only concern of conservative Catholicism. Why would anyone even be interested in it much less find a path to a spiritual life through it?
2
Perhaps the Catholic conservatives will return to the days of yesteryear and the inquisition. Nothing quite like burning a heretic in the public square to bring the masses to heel.
3
I rather like Jefferson's quote:
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. … But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding…. “
It is a pity that intelligent people like Ross are still so seduced by their faith in catholicism, or indeed any of the Abrahamic fantasies, that they would waste their mental acuity on parsing it so endlessly. If one arrives at the point that "God will appear to each of us in a manner that we can each understand", then one has implicitly denied all dogma and certainty.
5
Ross - I love your political columns. I'm a centrist, somewhat to the left of you - but I appreciate and pay attention to your political perspective. But boy, your religious opining gets old really fast in a secular publication like the NYTimes....
8
I hope it meets the same fate as the dinosaurs.
4
Conservative Catholicism has no relevance to me. I do not believe that if Jesus walked on the earth today he would agree with current church teaching on women priests or birth control. I think Jesus would teach th e Beatitudes. Do men understand how demeaning the church is to women? In 2020 I will stop contributing unless I see signs of reform. Women of the church unite!
8
Catholicism is anachronistic, misogynistic and elitist.
Catholics should demand serious reform and alignment to current ways of life.
6
Just a reminder that that when it came to protecting children or protecting child molesters, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, whether liberal or conservative, protected child molesters.
4
What will happen to conservative who claim to be Catholic?
Bahai is better. All religions are good. Be nice.
2
Mr. Douthat: on the question of pagan idols hurled into the Tiber with the Ecclesiastical Blessing of Cardinal Burke, I submit the following quote from Cardinal Newman: “ There never was a time when God had not spoken to man and told him to a certain extent his duty.” “..........there is nothing unreasonable in the notion , that there may have been heathen poets and sages, or sibyls again, in a certain sense divinely illuminated, and organs through whom religious and moral truth was conveyed.” From “John Henry Newman” by Ian Ker, Oxford, 1988, quoting from Newman’s “Dispensation of Paganism.”
2
Ah, isn't the person promoting schism Cardinal Burke? He wasn't chosen as Pope to lead. Maybe that's his problem as he seems off about the Pope leading and him following.
3
This article raises deeply reasoned, but differing opinions. The answer is not in the waiting, it is already most apparent in how many Catholics no longer observe the sacraments or go to church. They are voting with their feet and leaving the church. Oh yes, there is a smart move to make the numbers look good and win over people in other countries, but the bedrock of Catholicism in developed countries is smaller. It would be fair to say that by holding onto dogma without any acceptance to social issues of today, the church has atrophied.
What could replace this great institution if it passes away? The answer seems to be with a new group of leaders who are continuing to speak with the dying tongue of ancient dogma and blessing the President of the US, the biggest sinner in history (to borrow his manner of speaking), to seem relevant. This is a critical issue for the 2020 US Presidential election, and the most urgent problem facing Catholics today – will they vote for someone who gives lip-service to the right to life movement to garner votes and condemn women who have been raped, or worse, or who are merely too vulnerable to even consider their right to choose?
Perhaps that’s where the waiting idea can be practical today, because the church has always faced serious challenges in the past. It’s worth remembering that by aligning with powerful people like kings & queens or more recently, some would say Hitler, over principle, was always been damnably wrong.
4
Ross's obsession with everything being conservative is tiresome and stale. His chosen church and political party have sordid histories dating back centuries and decades, respectively. In either case, conservative means denying women equal rights and reproductive choice. It's not something to be proud of or to promote endlessly in what is America's greatest newspaper.
5
You can name it anything, but the bottom line is that
The dogma of the conservative Catholic branch of the Church
Is archaic,mysogynistic, and is in the tight fisted grasp of the angry white males of the cult.
I have seethed as a collapsed Catholic female ever since I had to make up sins as I waited in line for confession as an eight year old.
I have watched brilliant nuns make arrangements for the visit of Pope John Paul in Detroit, women with Doctorates in Divinity, having to step aside so the men of the church could enjoy the celebrations.
We are not in the Dark Ages, but frankly, I just cannot see how or why such a doctrine deserves to continue.
2
As I prepare on Sunday morning to attend Mass with a small Jesuit community of the faithful, Mr. Douthat’s lament for the Church’s Magisterium seems small and irrelevant to this Catholic. Rather, it is the voice of Jesus that serves as my North Star, calling me to love my sisters and brothers as He loves me.
5
@Robert D. Mauro Indeed. So many words, yet few if any of them seemed concerned with the human suffering and alienation we witness every day. As a former Catholic, now confirmed atheist, Francis offers little for me personally; but to many of closest friends, who remain devote, practicing Catholics (as well as my 83 yr old father) he offers a refreshing and loving vision for a church that has disappointed many. His concern for prioritizing not only the spiritual life of the poor and marginalized but also their well-being in the here and now has awakened a shift from mere thoughts and prayers to action on their behalf among Catholics and nonCatholics of all ages.
7
I guess its all fine when a Pope exercising his judgment "ex cathedra" is in accord with the conservatives. After all, the doctrine says the Pope is infallible when he decides matters of dogma "from the seat of Peter." Its easy to fall in line when what is decided is what one already thinks.
But now it appears ( per conservatives) that maybe the sitting Pope is actually wrong. Interesting dance to see how they try to rationalize the whole situation.
11
In the interest of fairness, could the editors oh the NYT find a mainstream or progressive Catholic to air another perspective to the faith than Douthat’s conservatism. He is poorly informed on the direction of Catholicism. It is unfair for the Times to let him be the only voice.
14
@Bob in Cincy Douthat, like so many Catholic converts, suffers from "holier than thou", always ready to point out the spiritual failings of others. Like a relative of my similarly afflicted (though born and raised in the church) it seems rooted in a vein of otherwise unexpressed anger masked in godliness.
Who cares about the survival of this dinosaur?
16
Church teachings and documents are written by men seeking to enforce traditional patriarchal misogyny, inequity, and subjugation. Throughout the centuries, they have borne scant resemblance to Christ's teachings. The loss of power of "conservatism" (i.e. reactionary traditionalism) in the Catholic Church, and in society as a whole, ironically signals the fact that, over time, and around the world, more people are embracing Christ's teachings of radical equality and finally rejecting church teachings of inequality and subjugation.
10
Traditionalists' loss of belief in papal authority took a big hit when Ratzinger decided that God had called on him to share his throne.
2
This column is more appropriate for The Wanderer than the NYT.
4
The Roman Catholic Church is too authoritarian.
5
What will happen to conservative Catholicism?
Who cares?
14
In the tension between conservative and progressive Catholic,s confusion can be minimized and clarity fostered by thinking through two questions: 1) What did Jesus actually teach and two, is there a development in the Church's understanding of what Jesus taught? Two examples: regarding marriage, Jesus did teach its indissolubility. He did not teach, however, what constitutes marriage. Thus a marriage ceremony and sexual intercourse as such do not constitute a marriage. A couple could go through a marriage ceremony, have sexual intercourse and still not be married. Second example: this ties in with Cardinal Newman, whom Douthat referenced; Jesus taught that baptism is necessary for salvation. The Church has learned there is a baptism of desire, at first applied to catechumens martyred before being baptized with water but later applied to those of good conscience in general. With these principles, knowing what Jesus actually taught and two, the development of dogma, a creative tension can be nurtured within the Catholic community.
2
Hopefully, along with Opus Dei, it will disappear. Then Catholicism will then move forward into daylight.
5
Given that it's the annivesary of Kristallnacht, let's not forget that after the Nazis made their maniacal hatred of Jews known, the Vatican signed a political treaty with Hitler -- the Reichskonkordat.
And -- throughout the period of the Holocaust -- the Catholic Church continued its centuries-old teaching that all Jews had to pay for the death of Jesus.
That's why the Vatican's ongoing hate-mongering against LGBT people is so unacceptable.
9
"The pope is not really the pope".
You don't like Francis? Delegitimise him and give us that good old religion...preferably in latin.
Where's a good Christian when you need one?
3
Oh, good riddance, already! Some things don't need to persevere or survive.
https://sojo.net/magazine/march-2019/rise-catholic-right
6
I think that having a right-wing pope for so long who was so dismissive of liberal Catholics was destructive to the Church, which I left 50 years ago because it was so regressive, particularly toward women.
We can see the effect of right-wing Catholics. We essentially have 5 of them on the Supreme Court. And Barr. They aren't looking out for my best interests.
Francis is a conservative. He's just less conservative than his JPII and Benedict.
6
It's all become too boring, Ross. How many candles on the altar for Forty Hours? Which door to Opus Dei's headquarters are women allowed to use? Etc.
12
There is no other organization in the whole world that has a leader that has the ability to speak to everyone in the organization in the entire world. However there is a huge difference between opinion and law. For example, Trump says something and most people in the world won't say "that's what America believes".
Just as anyone can have an opinion, there have been no official changes in Catholic Church laws in over 50 years. Tradition builds up over time by the way people act.
To all of you commenters who,think God comes to you through the “church”; it’s already in you, right now. You don’t need the middleman.........sit still and let it be
9
Conservative or Liberal Catholicism will not survive without divine intervention, and I dont think we are far from that now. When the Immaculate Heart of Mary Triumphs and Christ restores His church we will then see who was correct in their ideology and who was wrong, but not until then. It will all become clear. And I suspect it will be nasty when it begins but ending beautifully for a newly restored and reformed Church.
The Church today, under the papacy of Francis is in the verge of two crises; one is on the issue of the decade long coverups of abuses and the second one is on the theological issues among Traditional Catholics against the progressive Pope.
1
@Luis Bonifacio
They are one and the same.
1
Since when did this newspaper become a theology journal?
1
Oh the shame I felt growing up Catholic. Early on I was labeled a bad girl and have lived my life proving them wrong. I can't wait until 'the walls come tumbling down'. Who wants to go to a place run by the boys in their finery. I think heaven and hell is here on earth. Burn baby burn!
8
The current lay advocate for conservative Catholicism is Steve Bannon, who likes to quote the motto "I'd rather reign in Hell than serve in Heaven." Which kinda suggests he might be playing for the other team. No wonder so many people want a more liberal Church.
4
Mr. Douthat provides an elucidating and definitional description of religious conservatism which reflects political conservatism as well—resistance to change for the sake of resistance to change, without any consideration or reflection on the change itself. The rejection of Darwinian evolution is a paradigm for the rejection of all evolution—in social, economic and political systems. “And yet it moves” and will continue to move, despite Mr. Douthat’s insistence that he feels no motion where he stands on Earth.
8
I agree. Wait. Conservative Catholics should lay low, follow their ways of living the faith, and allow time and truth and the Holy Spirit to lead the way.
For the 20 years before Francis, I was so dismayed by the JP2 ways of Catholicism, that I just went underground. I worshipped with the monks and read a lot of Thomas Merton. I still do.
I considered myself part of the fold back then under JP2, and now under Francis. We are all one people.
2
@BQ
What about children abused by church clergy?
Do they deserve protection from that abuse?
Currently the church does not turn over accused abusers to law enforcement, but only to church authorities. Has that worked out well for generations of children? I would argue that it has not.
7
Time will decide. Also, what is conservative or not is relative. The church today compared to 100 years ago, or back to the Middle Ages is quite different on many levels. Now your conservative ideals, are quite liberal to an average parishioners a few centuries ago.
1
Until the Roman church confesses and repents of its systemic abuse of its most vulnerable congregants and accepts some kind of accountability, I don't see that it has a claim to the apostolic throne of Peter or whatever you call it. As a woman, I can avow that I'd never accept the second-class, servant/victim status your church would consign me to, while at the same time demanding my tithe. Step into the 21st century. Accept responsibility for the harm your institution has caused. Offer equity of status to all.
27
@Katrin
I agree.
Somehow when I think WWJD, I don’t come up with allowing and enabling sex abusers to evade the law.
2
The church (not just the Catholic church) has left the teachings of Jesus and has "church rules". Pope Francis is encouraging the church to minister to all, as Jesus did, and the conservatives and traditionalists are loosing their mind over it. More so, I think, because at some level they realize he is right. Churches should ask what Jesus would do. They would find more people attracted back into the folds.
19
I think it can be argued it is not conservative to ban birth control in the sense that stimulating overpopulation works against good stewardship of the planet. When the Pope asks the world leaders to work for conservation of the planet it sounds a bit hypocritical when one of the tenets of the Church undermines these efforts.
There's a point where defining conservatism as clinging to the past contradicts fundamental conservative principals.
And its not just Catholics that have this problem...
15
The author and Cardinal Burke seem to be utterly confused about the difference between doctrine and discipline.
The Amazon synod did not propose—nor is the Pope considering—a change to any tenet of the Nicene creed...a matter of doctrine. They ARE considering a change to the discipline of mandatory celibacy. The history of Christianity offers countless examples of evolution in such practices, and celibacy itself is one of these—given that a married clergy was common in the first millennium.
Conservative Catholics need to find a way to distinguish their visceral fear of reform (the opposite of conservation) from the plain historical fact that Christianity has always embraced a reasonable evolution in its man-made discipline, polity, and practice for the sake of spreading the Gospel.
21
@Christopher Schiavone
Correct. Evolution is the key idea. The Church is a living body that needs to evolve to survive.
3
@Christopher Schiavone Amen, Christopher.
Ross focused on internal rules, and ignores the fact that many conservative Catholics, using the excuse of the single abortion issue, have aligned themselves with conservative political parties. Despite their pious rhetoric, those conservative political parties, along with their conservative Catholic supporters, pursue anti-Christian policies -- they don't help the poor, they don't welcome strangers, they don't seek justice. The sermon on the mount and loving thy neighbor is forgotten.
This is not a recent problem, much of European history has seen the Church aligned with repressive, authoritarian regimes.
Hopefully Pope Francis can change that shameful history.
35
This piece assumes that the Catholic conservatism that flourished under John Paul II was somehow the right and true path, from which we're now diverting.
I think it was the wrong path, more focused on authoritarianism than Christianity. Francis is now leading the church back to the truth faith as expressed in the Gospels.
If conservative clerics believe in what Jesus taught in the Gospels, how could they not follow?
28
I am a historian of the Church, Ross - and the problem with the way that you have framed this issue is that you seem not to realize that the success of the Catholic Church for so very long has been a factor of the Church’s willingness to *reinterpret tradition to meet present challenges*. The emergence of the monastic tradition, Augustine’s “City of God,” the rise of the mendicant orders, the Tridentine Council, etc. etc. - the history of the Catholic Church is replete with examples of revolutionaries in the Church who saved it from irrelevance in the face of a changing world.
36
Fifty years ago was the church lying when they preached from the pulpit that homosexuality was against God's law and was a sin?
And today they preach acceptance to many of the same folks but even more so, that anyone adhering to the previous pronouncements is unloving, uncaring, homophobic and not exhibiting God's love and compassion.
This isn't a compassionate change within a loving and caring church. It's politics. A different party is now in power. The author hits the mark.
@Philippe Egalité That certainly hasn't happened lately!
In other words, evolution has always been the church's (and humanity's) only hope...as opposed to trying to cling to its corrupt, rigid, patriarchal past, Philippe Egalité.
Religion must always adapt to reality....and reality never has any need to adapt to religion.
3
What will happen to Conservative Catholicism ? Easy answer to this one. Like all other forms of conservatism, it will slowly erode and vanish because traditions that are not tied at the hip to humane, morally upright and ethical behavior do not usually survive the generations.
The current Pope is simply the latest example of a leader trying to reform a system from within. The naysayers and deniers will definite win a few battles but lose the war.
40
@Plato
Exactly. Conservatives refuse to except the Enlightenment and move into the future. The Enlightenment came into being because of the printing press, which let regular people learn about the world and discuss it among themselves. It led to the industrial revolution and to various approximations of democracy, including our Constitutional Republic.
The Enlightenment and the Constitution rely on reason: commonly accepted facts combined using logic, math, and the scientific method. It is a deeper understanding of the world than common wisdom, which believes that the earth is flat and the sun rises and sets.
Conservatives burn books and reject reason. They make clever arguments for the morality of cavemen: Do unto others before they do unto you. (Even many cavemen rose above this to create civilization.)
Conservatives don't want to go back to the 1950's. They want to go back to the 1050's before logic, math, and science created the modern world. They believe Trump is the "chosen one."
Christian Sharia Law is just as backward and dangerous as Muslim Sharia Law and mostly attacks the same behaviors of modern humans, like education, enjoying sex and questioning authority with evidence.
Anyone that thinks that compromise with the Right can lead to anything but the destruction of our Republic is tolerating intolerance, which is literally suicidal. Look at the mass murders committed by "conservative" governments in banana republics around the world for the last fifty years.
1
The Catholic Church has embarked on a slow motion reformation. It has started far too late and accelerated too slowly, but it has now achieved momentum that cannot be overcome by arcane ecclesiastical debates.
14
No longer a Roman Catholic, I now satisfy my spiritual needs elsewhere. What the majority of Roman Catholics believe and how they turn that into deeds, does however interest me. It is one of the biggest faiths on Earth and very relevant to our on-going history,
I admire the words and action of Jesus. During three years I had the privilege of being the care provider for two elders whom I had to accompany to Mass every week. I had a lot of time to read, reread and ponder the day's scriptures. Beautiful.
But then the hypocrisy of the Trump T-shirts going to communion. Murmurings when the priest announced the Spanish-language mass. Comments about African American faithful at Mass ("they should go to their own church").
If there is a god, this divine being in whose image we were created, like us would not stagnate. Especially since not bound to matter, a god could easily absorb growth and transform it into teaching.
Conservatives must see the evil around us and as faithful seek some adjustments to lessen the pain. Thoughtless repetition of what has been done, will always end in the same state that it got us to the first time around.
18
@Robb Kvasnak: The Roman Catholic concept of "original sin" excuses a vast array of excesses.
1
The concern that the wooden statue “embodied indigenous reverence for the Virgin Mary or indigenous pantheism and nature-worship” is a bit too much coming from Catholic Conservatives. Most of the Catholic high holy days were lifted directly from the indigenous pantheism and nature-worship of Europe. The practice of praying to Saints to intercede on your behalf is taken directly from religions that had multiple Gods and one high good above the others. I think these conservatives need to have a little historical perspective.
39
@Glenn: The real foundation of the Roman Catholic Church was negotiated by the Nicene Council convened by Emperor Constantine to establish a uniform state religion for the Roman Empire, three centuries after the events attributed to Jesus took place.
2
So, we believe in one Catholic, Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection and the life of the world to come. Amen, bro' Ross. But try as I might, I can't find in the Creed of Nicea one word about priestly celibacy (started ca. 1,000 AD as a response to priestly nepotism), divorce and re-marriage, female priesthood, or, for that matter, Papal inerrancy--or the Pope. As I read the four gospels, I remind myself they were written, adopted and reified by error-prone mortals like the rest of us suckers. Likewise the decision to exclude from the Canon the Gospels of Mary, Thomas and the rest of the Gnostic gospels. The 'doctrinal' authority you seem to tout is an inspired power-play by error-prone men. Perhaps it behooves us all to remember that Jesus rejected BOTH the kingdom and the temple? TG
61
@Thomas Givon "we believe in one Catholic, Apostolic Church." 16 years of Catholic education; I always skipped that part of the prayer, because I could't believe it.
1
Curious, no pun. Waiting, or the more descriptive, kicking the can down the road, is a feature of fossilized politics as well as this church. Just keep everything the same till I’m out of office. The appeal is basic, implying that somehow, our brief individual tenure above ground implies a peak in human existence, the best ever achieved or can be achieved. I get it; it’s human; it’s attractive, but of course it’s utter nonsense.
Now if my town can’t decide about painting the town hall this year, probably not a decision with wide import. If national politics stymies science or starts a war, a much bigger deal. If a church makes a decision to not make changes even though it’s going to cost believers pretty quickly, I think, from the perspective of the long, long history of this planet, it’s trivial.
6
Really? This piece must have a very small audience regarding the struggles of the aristocracy of a segment of an established global religion that has created chaos and suffering since its inception. I forget who said it, maybe Yuval Harari, but I understand religion to be a childish conceptualization of reality. Amazing we are still in its thrall.
24
Mr Douthat,
Maybe a religion that is provides a gentle guide for moral living, and community for those who seek it, is better than one that primarily proselytizes and uses congregation as a means to achieve and exert power in the secular world?
19
These old guys still worrying about celibacy and female ordination? Incredible. How did an establishment that so totally excludes women ever get this far? Every discipline that I care about, be it medicine, art, literature, law, politics, sports or science, has hugely benefitted from the inclusion of women, not to mention the totally self-evident rights of women, indeed all human beings, to fully participate in their own society. Why does anyone even take seriously this bizarre propensity to accept pointless rules simply because they are there? I locate the problem in our failure to propagate moral reason - a faculty which has nothing whatever to do with religion.
56
The deeper issue is not related only to Catholicism, and affects mainline Protestant denominations just as well. The challenge is that it is very hard to sustain a premodern system of belief in light of our current postmodern understanding of the reality. The structure of traditional denominations, including Catholicism, has slowed down some change, but it will come nonetheless.
12
It would seem that for many the Catholic Church is no longer relevant. Throughout well educated countries it’s followers are shrinking. In the U.S. Catholic schools and churches are closing every year for lack of members. In some areas one priest must hold mass in several churches because of lack of priests. The Catholic religion and many of its teachings are thousands of years old and for many do not fit into our ever changing world. If the church chooses not to modernize,then it will continue its decline.
21
@Viincent
I can only hope that you are right, with the decline you mention leading to oblivion.
3
It will continue to expand world-wide. Many people of faith rebel at the erosion of values of morality and civility and the constant bickering about their personal beliefs. It's a private church, not an equal opportunity employer. It has a right (remember separation of church and state) to formulate it's own dogma.
5
It is interesting that Mr. Douthat writes that since the current Pope, Pope Francis, is liberal, conservatives are "powerless" and need to now understand that they have to essentially accept their own religion's (now tilting more liberal) "lens". It is as if to write that they need to relinquish their beliefs, and accept what Pope Francis believes. Did Mr. Douthat write the same way when Pope Benedict was the Pope? Did he write that liberal-tilting Catholics should be "powerless" and accept the lens of their "own religion". I think not. There is certainly a serious debate occurring within the Catholic Church right now, but the Pope turned the Amazon synod into a circus for a reason I cannot fathom. Most of your readers and commenters are gleeful to anticipate Catholicism's demise, but meanwhile, Catholics continue on. The Catholic church educates 2.6 million children every year, saving the public school system 15 billion dollars or more each year. The Church's c. 650 non-profit hospitals in the US treat one in five patients in the US. It provides easily more than 25,000 meals PER DAY in the US to the homeless and the poor. And what institution stays and helps the poorest in the most dangerous places in the world such as El Salvador and Honduras and throughout Africa while nations do nothing. Let your Sunday morning feet-on-the-coffee-table readers think for a moment about what commitment and devotion really means, and what it requires.
6
@Pls
By the way...most of the workers in those schools, hospitals and food banks, not to mention those in Africa, El Salvador and Honduras are WOMEN!
1
@Rainbow I agree! Women are very much the backbone of the Catholic Church!
2
As a Catholic, I'm presently less concerned about the struggle between the anti-Francis reactionaries in the Church and the Pope's supporters as I am about an apparent cabal of right-wing Catholics inside the White House.
There's a conservative Catholic lobby on K Street in the nation's capital called The Catholic Information Center. William Barr is a former board member. Current board members include President Trump's White House Counsel, Pat Cipollone, and Leonard Leo, who's also a vice president of the right-wing Federalist Society and who's earned the sobriquet "Trump's judge-whisperer" because of his powerful influence on Trump's choices for appointments to the bench, including Brett Kavanaugh, another right-wing Catholic.
I don't want to see right-wing religionists succeed in eliminating the separation of church and state codified in the 1st Amendment and systematically transforming the government of the United States into a crypto-theocracy. Nor can I abide a single-issue appraisal of this administration, i.e., the proposal that installing anti-abortion judges excuses the multitude of Trump's disqualifications to lead this country.
I hope the press will dig into this, because it seems to me rather a big deal that's so far been ignored.
The Catholic Church will survive. It's guaranteed. Constitutional government in the US can boast no such guarantees, and its foundations are being undermined. Perhaps the role of right-wing Catholics in this bears investigation.
104
@Manhattanite. Wow. I don’t know if you’re right about this conspiracy but it would make a heck of a good movie. It certainly is true that we have vast hordes willing to give up most of our brilliant constitution, including separation of church and state, and that right now, our country is in real danger of dissolution on many fronts. We’ve even got a supposed president calling himself ‘the chosen one’ in public, and weird new expressions of secular interference by churches.
But is the central intelligence of the Roman Catholic Church smart enough to create a theocratic attack on the United States? That’s stretching it, but again, a really good movie.
4
I don't know what you mean by "the central intelligence of the Roman Catholic Church," but if you think the right-wing Catholics inside the White House have anything to do with the Vatican, you're barking up the wrong tree. Their agenda is their own and is in no way issuing from or approved by Pope Francis. Of that I'm confident.
1
You might be interested in the docudrama “The Family” currently streaming on Netflix. It’s based on the book of the same name. Quite chilling for those who believe in separation of Church and State.
1
While Cardinal Burke fights for traditionalist values, he has already lost the battle. It ended when Galileo proved the earth was round. That discovery essentially ended the Catholic church's claim to infallibility.
Pope Francis is a ray of hope for Catholics to move forward with their lives in a modern and respectful way.
42
Galileo said the earth rotated around the sun, not the other way around.
1
Ross,
I feel sorry for you that your mind is chronically inflamed by the contradictions of Roman Catholic dogma, religious traditions and practices that most Roman Catholics suffering from the same problem usually resolve by early adulthood.
One metaphor that I use often is that we are all immigrants, first, from the world of our parents whose beliefs about the world create the world as we thought it was as children, second, the world we discover as adults, when we open our eyes and minds to much larger and complex world beyond our nuclear family (and local parish) and realize that our parents didn't get everything right, and finally to three, the world we give to those who follow us, our children, our students, and others who want to understand the world they are entering.
You can quote the Bible, Jesus, Augustine, Aquinas, the Catechism, Burke, John Paul II, Pope Francis, and many others, but use your God given brain to realize that religious truths change through time and reflection upon what earlier thinkers and writers might have believed in error.
The Earth is not the Center of the Universe, the Sun does not rise or set, the Earth is not flat, Evolution has a longer history than the Garden of Eden, and wherever humans have spread, they have created their own versions of creation, identity, and cultures to explain who they are and how to answer the eternal questions of life, its purpose, its meaning, and death.
Bring joy to your life and to those around you!
46
I wonder that God thinks about the need to break down religion, politics and culture into a man-made construct of liberal v. conservative. Perhaps he, she or it is thinking: I told them to love their neighbors as themselves, but they don't understand the difference between loving their neighbors and controlling them.
45
@Richard Winkler: There is no inherent conflict between liberty and conservation. The two are independent variables.
1
@Steve Bolger: Maybe but liberty and conservation have nothing to do with the split between liberals and conservatives in the Roman Catholic Church and within the American political system. They both think they know what’s good for everyone else. But the God of Christianity commands us to love. So maybe if love was the real motivation of the religious the world would be a more loving place. That never seems to be the focus of Russ Douthat’s columns on Catholicism. Hierarchies are about power and control. Maybe when they start getting into love, miracles will happen.
2
Pretty much everything that old people consider "conservative" is doomed. That doesn't mean everyone will be liberal. Rather, new generations will exist on a different left-right spectrum, and the two ends will be in different places.
Let's hope the obsession with gender and sexuality dies with the current generation's prejudices. It all looks very after-the-fact anyway, made up by people who were stunned to inaction by the sexual revolution rather than by people who were honestly trying to deal with new information as it was revealed. This inaction has hurt the church more than any reasoned reconsideration of doctrine possibly could.
14
Catholicism has been around for about 1700 years. During that time, it has tried mightily to remain a block of teaching and require strict adherence to its, now arcane rules.
The range of beliefs in a superior being, god, across the world is bewildering. Yet, the sum of those beliefs and teachings are in place to allow mankind to peacefully coexist. Although, some of those teachings do not allow other beliefs to exist, let alone flourish.
What would it matter to anyone if Jesus married and had children? No female apostles? Well, it was a male centered society and they wanted to keep it that way.
Christianity, like other religions, is built on myths and fables. The real value of religion is to support peaceful coexistence among people.
27
Conservative Catholicism? Does Douthat mean there is more than one Catholicism? More than one Church? I was unaware that there varieties of Catholicism. Actually, that sounds like heresy to me.
I have always understood and believed the Church and the faith to be one. For sure there are some Catholics who are conservative in their outlooks, some who are traditionalists, and some who people like Douthat call liberals (whatever that means). Where these people are in disagreement is almost exclusively over matters of discipline and practice, things that are mutable; not over the deposit of the faith.
Too often today some elements of the traditionalist/conservative factions have misunderstood or misrepresented Francis, usually (in my opinion) with more of an eye towards protecting their status within the Church. Francis hasn’t changed any teachings. If we read with an open mind the documents he has issued that is clear. Divorce and remarriage? There has been no change to the teaching, just an emphasis on mercy when dealing with people in irregular situations. Priestly celibacy? Thirty years ago John Paul II opened priesthood to married Anglican priests converting to Catholicism.
Mr. Douthat, you need to return to the Catechism. There is only one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church: not several Catholicisms diverging along ideological lines. You are thinking too much like a politician and not enough like a believer.
23
Very interesting piece. I joined the Church as an adult because my wife was raised Catholic. Sadly we later divorced & both left the Church. I have great respect for the intellectual traditions of Catholicism and am periodically tempted to rejoin but of course run up against the divorce issue, which for me is irresolvable under traditional Catholic doctrine because I reject the notion that an annulment could possibly have any relevance to a 24-year marriage to a woman with whom I raised two wonderful children and with whom I remain a close friend. I don’t make this point to question the validity of traditional Catholic doctrine, but only to point out that, like the issue of priestly celibacy, there are practical ramifications which result from strict adherence to tradition, and when those ramifications are rapidly shrinking numbers of both shepherds & sheep, perhaps some modifications are warranted.
16
Some years ago, I was having a discussion about belief with a friend. He summarised the catholic church as having a structure where the laity existed to serve the clergy; while in most other christian denominations, the clergy exist to serve the laity.
The child abuse scandals, of the recent past, and the church's efforts to downplay and conceal them only serve to emphasise my friend's viewpoint.
A structure with these internal stresses is doomed to fall. The sooner the better.
The priesthood's lack of regard for the most fundamental teachings, attributed to Christ, only emphasises the questionable underpinnings of christianity.
28
@Philip Brown
Very good observation on the part of your friend. When my mother died twenty-some years ago, our Catholic priest stopped by the funeral home and administered a blessing. We bowed our heads in prayer for thirty seconds, after which he just left. My Greek Orthodox husband said, "that's it?" He's not going to sit and talk with you?"
My reaction was, "why would he do that? He gave the blessing, he left, what more is there? He didn't actually know my mother." It was the first time I realized that in other churches the clergy actually cared about the parishioners whether they knew them or not.
I'm sure that if my mother was a major church contributor, there would have been a nice meet and console, but she just filled her envelopes and dutifully sent them to the church every week. She had become too ill to attend Mass, but the donations, of course, continued.
I'm sure that there are wonderful pastors and priests out there, but let me assure you, my experience is not unique.
4
"What Will Happen to Conservative Catholicism?"
If Mr. Trump is representing the "Conservative Catholicism", I am afraid it will die with the current generation of 60+ population. The younger generations look at the past and present behavior of Mr. Trump and do not see that as an affirmative model either for themselves or their children.
In the same way that Trump administration is undermining American values, it is also eroding foundations of religion and spirituality in the United States.
17
In the opera Tosca, the evil Scarpia in church for Te Deum sees Tosca whom he covets. As the choir invokes the Te Deum, Scarpia exclaims: "Tosca, you make me forget God". And there is the knot of the question. Love and more precisely sexuality is the one human emotion that rivals religiosity. At least, many religions and certainly the monotheistic religions have viewed that basic of human feelings as a direct challenge to the divinity. And they have sought to control its manifestations. Religions are central in births, marriages, deaths and in the daily behavior of human beings. From this central preoccupation are derived all the practices and injunctions of churches. And for this reason, changes to this fundamental question are not easy to come by.
2
@Frank Casa True. However, Christianity is uniquely obsessed with biological and canonical sex-in-a-couple. The model of divinity was an "offspring" of a married couple (and the myth of her being unmarried has been disputed).
Other religions merely focus on "fecundity," i.e., increasing the population one way or another, which leads to a bias for "reproductive sex" and against recreational sex.
1
I enjoy bacon with a nice cheese omelette. I have eaten both on Fridays. I am “waiting” for the Church to focus on the love of God rather than on abstinence from food and from women, and for conservatives to recognize that rigidity in temporal law is a distraction rather than a foundation when seeking the eternal.
27
Much of what the church fights about is not so much core theology as church law and/or personal morality issues. To say that things must never change is to say that the church cannot learn and grow, but only cling to what has 'always' been.
In terms of ordination of women, the argument is made that Jesus chose only me for his apostles ergo only men can be priests. Yet, Jesus himself never made any such pronouncements - and he had strong female leaders (especially Mary Magdalen) and some of the early church leaders (e.g., Lydia).
So, then married priests are disallowed, yet the apostles themselves were married, so where is the supposed biblical basis for that one?
I am a retired Presbyterian minister who was raised Catholic. The Roman church has an all male hierarchy, which is rooted in tradition. For them, things work very nicely thankful just the way they are. How convenient to claim that all that works for them is "God's will" and, therefore, unchangeable. Sadly, the wider church is paying the price for this as attendance is down, parishes are closing, and many believers do not have access to regular pastoral care and services.
29
@Anne-Marie Hislop
Re: Reasons for the male-only priesthood
In addition to and much more important than the argument that Jesus chose only males as apostles is the frequent imagery in scripture with the Church as the bride and Jesus as the bridegroom. It is Catholic doctrine, if not well regarded, that the priest is married -- to the Church.
2
@Anne-Marie Hislop The order of priesthood was not even part of the original formation of the Church. It was only formalized with the conversion of Jewish priests who wanted to maintain their status with the community, which included an exclusive access to the Holy of Holies within the Jewish community. Personally as a Catholic standing outside the door at this point, I question less the validity of the ordination of women priests, than the essential need for ordained priests at all. It is much more about the conservation of the power than the power of the Consecration.
14
I am not Catholic, but, on the face of it, it seems to me that Popes come and go, but the central teachings of the Catholic Church should remain the same regardless of the ideology of any particular Pope. But again, as I said, I am not Catholic and possibly I have neither the right nor enough knowledge of the Church's teachings to have an informed opinion.
2
@Sophie The question is, when did they become “unchanging”?
There were married priests and women priests in the Church, then that was changed. Is changing back going towards or against the teachings of the Church?
When I was growing up, the final decision in a dilemma was to follow your conscience, as it was the voice of God inside of you, speaking directly to you. Then, that got changed, so any disagreement with the rightward swing of the Church in the 70’s and 80’s was the result of a “disordered conscience”. Would going back to the catechism mean changing the Church’s teachings or correcting back to where they were?
Many things viewed as eternal and unchanged have not been around these past 2000 years, even though the conservatives want you to think so.
8
This is the old argument between the primacy of law versus the primacy of love. Is the church to lead us to the love of God and our fellow humans or is the church to control our lives?
I agree that "love" can be interpreted many ways and may seem slippery. But love is what Jesus taught.
20
My husband used the California End of life Option Act after a diagnosis of a glioblastoma back in March. I have now moved to a retirement community. At my table last night in the dining room, a very liberal but strictly Catholic woman told me that she thinks this should be outlawed for everyone because only God can take you. That is conservative Catholicism and I want no part of it in our pluralistic country.
362
@Jane Roberts Jane, I strongly agree with you and am sorry my state doesn't present the same opportunities since, into my 80s (though in good health) of course I ponder what my exit will involve and having help nurse my mother, my only sibling, a sister, and her daughter, my only niece, through their terminal cancer, I don't want to go the route they had to take. My justification--from the time a person consciously takes their first aspirin or Tums, they obviously are altering God's will, right? After all, He, She or It must have, for some reason, wanted them to have a headache or indigestion. Kick it up a bit to heart bypasses, etc.. Thus, if I have interfered with God's plan to extend my well-being, should I not be able to make a rational decision as to when it is the proper time to call it quits, to end the suffering, and to avoid wasting the money it takes to keep me breathing, conscious or unconscious? I believe I should! Sorry for your lose but do take comfort in that you folks make the correct decision.
23
@Jay BeeWis Thanks a ton for our thoughtful comment. Jane
13
I grew up a Protestant, am now Unitarian Universalist, and the only one of my childhood friends I know of who attends Sunday service on a regular basis.
Virtually every friend I had growing up was Catholic, went to confession every week, had a wedding mass when she got married, and had her babies christened in a Catholic Church. But that was 40 years ago.
Not one of them attends church today, not even on Christmas or Easter. And of course, neither do their children. And it's because of attitudes and opinions and beliefs like Ross Douthat's and the cobweb-covered, unjust, patriarchal, suffocating dogma that drives him and his brethren continuously backward in time.
174
Ross, conservative Catholicism is patriarchal and archaic. The precepts, the dogmas, etc., are man-made and relevant to the politics and social customs of the time. Space does not allow me to list all the misguided principles laid down by former popes. But I will start at their so-called infallibility. That occurred as Garibaldi was unifying Italy, no more popes will be governing. Enter the Holy Spirit "descending" upon Pius IX informing him that he must not give up his control and power over his flock. So as a consequence, it is a sin to practice birth control. A battered woman is excommunicated if she divorces her abusive husband and chooses to marry again. And the clergy marrying? Of course, they should. And maybe, just maybe, our young boys and girls will no longer be raped by parish priests and bishops. Don't even get me started on women being ordained. Here is the deal. The Catholic Church must be dynamic and evolving. If it chooses differently, there will be no Church. Who on earth will want to stay?
584
@Kathy Lollock Some years ago the Washington Post had a picture of the American Bishops meeting to discuss women's role in the Church. I realized then I was in the wrong church. There was not a woman in the meeting. The Catholic Church is so male dominated and controlling and the conservative branch of the church just wants to hold on to the power and control.
268
@Kathy Lollock the clergy are already married thanks to JP II who opened the door to married Episcopal/Anglican priests. We had a married priest at our Catholic Church in Atlanta - Immaculate Heart of Mary. in early- mid 1990s. Nice priest. They continued to live as man and wife and he was a Catholic priest who led mass and gave Communion. So celibacy is apparently not as important as some say. That barn door was opened by JPII so not sure why some are acting like Francis possibly making allowances for married places in regions like the Amazon is a big deal. If conservatives feel the need to split then it would be very unfortunate and sad. But God will survive it. Man can fail. The Church can fail. God doesnt.
40
@Kathy Lollock At the First Vatican Council several hundred Bishops did not agree with the infallibility declaration and left the Council before the final vote. In the end the definition was so fuzzy it hardly meant anything, thus leading to ongoing and endless debates about doctrine and ethics. The RC church from one point of view is a large debating society.
23
In the Cluniac reforms (Gregorian Reforms) of the Eleventh Century the Catholic Church tired to solve the problem of nepotism by prohibiting priests from marrying. Up until that time monks were required to be celibate, but not priests. So one year all the children of Catholic clergymen were informed that they were illegitimate. Yes, it was post facto. The Orthodox Church thought this was ridiculous.
Nepotism is a real problem in religious denominations as well as government, but prohibiting priests from marrying has caused more problems in the Catholic Church than it has solved. And celibacy never really solved the problem of nepotism, because celibate clergymen still had nephews and there were a lot of popes who were nephews of previous popes. It was sort of like all those relatives of Chinese concubines who got contracts with the imperial Chinese government.
The other Cluniac Reforms such as the prohibition on simony and the election of the pope were an improvement, but the 1000 year experiment in prohibiting priests from marrying has been an embarrassing failure. It is time for the Catholic Church to solve its problem with a shortage of priests by allowing priests to marry again.
Otherwise they will have to allow women to become priests...but actually that's not such a bad idea either.
11
The first part of your column was interesting because of your description of a priest's revulsion for the statue of the naked woman kneeling before the Virgin Mary. This brings up the central problem for conservative Catholics....... women.
The three issues that continue to fester in the conservative heart of the Church are:
1) The treatment of women as second-class participants in the Church
2) The primacy of 'the male gaze' or perspective with all matters related to women.
3) The male feeling of inadequacy with regard to female sexuality and sexuality in general and a lack of understanding or acceptance of what it means to be a person.
These are not small matters. They are issues that touch on the evolution of humans and human culture. Good luck to the conservatives who twist themselves into knots while life and society flow around, over, and under them.
39
Truth may be one but individual perceptions of truth are forever changing as one matures, grows in knowledge and experience. The old "truth" of the sun traveling arround the earth was decidedly debunked when science proved the opposite was the case. The Catholic Church has been able to survive for the last 2000 years because, like it or not, it has changed as mankiind's perception of what is true has accomodated what science has proven to be true. Those Catholics who continue to maintain the fiction that certain "infallible teachings" have "always been taught from the beginning, etc." do no service either to the Church or humanity by maintaining this charade. Certain "truths" regarding human sexuality when it comes to sexual equality between the sexes, sexual orientation, divorce, birth control, etc must be reexamined in the light of contemporary scientific findings dealing with such things. "When I was a child, I thought as a child", St. Paul says, "but when I was an adult I put away the things of childhood", or words to that effect. Today I suspect he might say to the Church, "grow up!"
13
@Cristino Xirau Interestingly, the entire concept that teachings are "infallible" is due to the church itself. It is equally be possible for a church to allow for changes in its teachings over times - the Mormon faith is an example of how this can be successful.
In essence, in early times the priests used the argument "this is the unchanging message" to convince parishioners to follow them (or else...). The priests are now painted into a corner, because they don't know how to admit that the "unchanging" message has already changed several times and will continue to change.
2
@Cristino Xirau
Amen!
This is what happens when you divorce a religion from its basis: arguments about how many angels can reside on the head of a pin, or whether some doctrinal point or the other is true.
Religion that has fallen away from its beginnings is just an inauthentic shell, a set of practices and rules that are irrelevant to the religion's true meaning.
It misses the whole point. The "shell" may still have value, but without its center, it is a very insubstantial value indeed.
9
These controversies are moot. God did not create these arbitrary rules, man did. Man can change these rules if they become irrelevant as human society evolves.
36
I hope and pray that conservative Catholics might reflect a bit more on the model Jesus set for us through his actions and words. Jesus was neither liberal not conservative but rather obedient to the Father's will. He taught that the two most important attitudes we should strive for are love of God and love of our fellow men so as to treat them as we ourselves would wish to be treated. Jesus was without sin - completely observant of the law - but he applied the law in the most loving way possible towards his fellow men and women. Consider the Sabbath law, one of the 10 Commandments, then and now. Yet Jesus healed many on the Sabbath, allowed his hungry followers to gather grain on the Sabbath, and explained the apparent contradiction by reminding the legalists of his day that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of humanity rather than people being made for the benefit of the Sabbath. The deposit of faith never changes. But shall we not choose Christ's example and apply it in ways that build up, support, show love for and comfort our brothers and sisters and honor God and the spirit of the law rather than blindly and coldly following our own traditions? I think that this is the path down which Pope Francis is trying to lead the church.
29
@KenC
I’m not sure Francis is truly trying to follow Jesus’ example.
Jesus, unlike Francis, would not report sex abuse of children only to church authorities, and not to law enforcement.
2
Beyond the scope of a column surely, but very helpful to one lapsed Catholic approaching 80 and the product of 19 years of Roman Catholic schooling, a fairly detailed description of the world-wide Church today.
Without it, even assuming an understanding of Conservative Catholicism today, awfully difficult to even try to understand what's "in play" and where/how the venerable and essential institution which is the Church might ... proceed.
4
The really important question is whether or not there is a schism between Mr and Mrs Claus. I've heard Rudolf is leading a group that is questioning Mr Claus' ability to effectively drive the sleigh and Mrs Claus is gaining support to oust her husband in light of ERA's pending passage in the US. For my money, I think the time is right for "Mother Christmas" to take over.
14
"Where conservative Catholics have the power to resist what seem like false ideas or disastrous innovations they must do so." When have conservatives (Catholic or otherwise) ever seen new ideas or innovations offering greater power or autonomy to the swaths of population traditionally excluded from the power structure as anything other than "false and disastrous"?
16
Just yesterday, I attended a meeting with active Catholics from nine other parishes in the diocese in which I live. Quite a few said the same thing. The Anglo community is elderly and shrinking and their Hispanic communities are growing and thriving. Several also said that the priests (Latinos) were less involved and less interested in the Anglo concerns. Not only is there a cultural shift in the American Catholic church, but also, it appears, a generational shift .Many of the young relatives in my family and in many families I know have stopped attending . As for the Conservative Catholic stance, I am convinced that is why young Anglos have left.
21
I do not think that Douthat knows how the whole system of Christianity and Catholicism evolved. I have studied the evolution of Christianity for the last 50 years and I have not been able to decipher whether the Catholic Church is Christian or Marian. I lean toward believing that it is Marianism. That would make it a continuation of the religious of the Great Mother Earth Goddess and worshipping mother earth goddesses is not rare in the world of religion. That would make it a continuation of a pagan religion. I have always marveled over the Catholic concept that anything that is in opposition to the established views of the Church is heresy. Douthat wrote a book on that one time. Luther, however, pretty well turned the table on heresy when he said that every man is a priest and can read the Bible himself in a language he can understand and interpret it as he wished. I do not think you need to worry about Conservative Catholicism, I think that you need to worry about Catholicism in general. Right now, in the US, there are more NONES, people expressing no religious affiliation, than there are Catholics. This group has been growing for the last several years. Christianity, in general, is losing adherents and it will go the way of Mithraism in due time.
22
The Holy Spirit guides the Church, His Holiness the Pope and all other Catholics who believe and are genuinely prepared to follow that guidance with love for all, not just the few that agree with them. Love for God and neighbor is the test. It's not about conservative v. liberal. It's about Love for all, not a narrow agenda.
17
Blah, blah, blah. As a former Catholic--- even Christian, for that matter---I have to ask the same question that was my point of contention 30 yrs ago: where exactly is the historical Jesus of Nazareth in all this? Saints, popes, chalices, Vatican City, doctrine, dogma, authortarianism, paternal hierarchy, social engineering...all humanistic materialism under the guise of transcendent spirituality. What difference does it all make? And why is it that even an ancient religion whose very name is defined as "universal" have to be a political caricature of itself and categorize everything in the context of "conservative vs. liberal," like it's a PAC. It's not. It confuses it "universality" as having dibs on unchanging "universal truth," as opposed to universal inclusion and acceptance, the REAL tennants of spirituality.
And as far as uptight religious conservatives are concerned, like their political counterparts, they continue to fail to see that the only thing not in flux in this universe is their profound fear of change. It's even more interesting to note that their worldview is a mirror of the Pharisees of Christian scripture, who were lamented as bowing to the letter of the Law without understanding its heart. Jesus would have been considered an ultra-left subversive in our age of endless labels. The very fruition of his mission was contingent on that fact, and how they don't see the contemporary parallel continues to astound.
123
@kstew After reading your two paragraphs, I hope the Times closes the comments section for this column.
Because there's nothing more that can or needs to be said.
Bravo!
7
@kstew
And Jesus was considered subversive in his day. That's why he was crucified!
2
@kstew
Terrific piece of logical 'revelation'.
From this we can surmise that Douthat's religious views may not be about religion.
As I recall, Luther felt the same when he nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg...
3
I see the second alternative will be more likely done, if done, with fewer difficulties, because in which the self-contradiction of the papacy has a seed for a grown resolution, however much it might seem to be humanly pragmatic at the moment. I modestly say any doctrinal solution would take a considerable length of time or nearly impossible unless Catholic Church is fully ready to reconstruct its whole past as Post-crucifix to redefine even Jesus’s resurrection, which, I know, is quite an opinion from nobody like me. But, such a thing may also be one of Pope Francis’s notions and one of the reasons for his advocacy for those who have been regarded as most visible only when fitting biblical descriptions of the poor and miserable as if a default factor for the Church.
1
I was born and raised in the Church. Spent 13 years in Catholic school, got married in the church, baptized my kids in the church. The sex crimes and the cover-ups finally drove me away. Then I learned it was so much worse than I'd ever suspected. I don't think we yet know how bad it is.
That someone can write a long column about the crisis in "conservative Catholicism" arising from its "traditionalist" ideas about sex and sexuality, without ever once mentioning that enormous and still-unfolding sex scandal, comes across to me as evidence of deep, deep denial.
363
@TMSquared I totally agree. And you could almost say it is a sin of conscience not to mention it. Ah, but conservative "anythings" typically are looking for ways to keep others in line while they themselves rationalize how they are not subject to the same laws and regulations. Oh, and the one thing they fear most is if the masses become educated and learn to think for themselves.
27
Conservative Catholicism - coverups of sexual horrors, denial of transition to the modern era, refusal to rethink dogma anchored in medieval suppression and glorification of male power. What is the good in it, Douthat? Unlike others, I do not condemn Christianity, just those who venerate and conserve a church structure that benefits a few at the top at the expense of those who turn over their coin.
70
Who cares what happens to the Pope or the Catholic church(Church)? I am now 71. I left the Church 40 over years ago and have never looked back.
Indeed, I read with great interest the latest CHurch "news" story, in which it was reported that the Church had decided to allow priests to marry. The fact that this edict turned out to be a joke, only confirms why millions of others like me have left. The Church has zero credibility with me.
25
The conservative position seems to negate the historical theology that embraces the pope.If the conservatives truly believe the pope is chosen by God then his rulings are God's.
Anything else is heresy. Do these conservatives, because they disagree. really believe the Pope is fraudulent? The Church is in deep trouble.
12
@Karn Griffen
Rather like the Republican screaming about the national debt for the last 50 years. But now that trump has caused it to rise 26%, nothing but silence. Conservative positions always seem to be rather flexible, don't they?
21
@Karn Griffen This parallels the 'conservative'--really, 'fascist'--backlash against modernity.
If I don't like it, it's wrong, and I'm entitled to violate whatever established norms there are to restore my own sense of 'right'. Back to the Good Old Days of clericalism and clerical impunity!
1
The Conservative Catholicism of Burke is an institutional orthodoxy. What matters most is the unchanging institutional order. In Burke's view, the mission of the Church is primarily that of preservation of institutional norms and practices, cultic, clerical, and monastic. Francis and his allies take a different view considering the primary mission of the Church to be pastoral. Orthodoxy means taking seriously the moral imperatives of Christianity (feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome strangers, and proclaiming good news in the face of our suffering world). Francis sees this mission as informing, shaping and clarifying the institution. The Conservatives like Burke operate as though the institution is impervious to the pastoral realities. In being impervious, it becomes self centered, internally focused, and piously ignorant. No surprise then, that matters like clerical sexual abuse, financial malfeasance are coming to light.
36
I don't see what the problem is: conservative Catholics believe the pope is infallible; the pope is a liberal; therefore conservatives should belive in liberal Catholicism.
27
The Church was made by man. It will modernize as man desires it to modernize. Don't worry about it.
7
The conservatives in the Catholic Church should be focusing on one thing - the sexual abuse of children. There should be zero tolerance. It's hard to think of anything more shameful than a trusted priest taking advantage of a youngster in such an awful way.
I depart from Douthat and the conservatives after that.
Priestly celibacy, after many centuries, should be declared a noble experiment that failed. There is no shame in admitting that. The church needs more priests, and this rule cuts out too many potential candidates.
The Church also needs women in positions of authority. Women should have the possibility of becoming cardinals, and perhaps a pope. Why should this seem so outlandish? Remember, what draws many people to Jesus is the fact that he had women in his inner circle at a time when this was beyond unheard of.
Pope Francis has been a tremendous pope, and he will go down in history as one of the great ones. Read his encyclical Laudato Si (On the Care of our Common Home). It is one of the most important scholarly works of our day, and is relevant to everyone, not just Catholics.
19
Conservatives don't practice Catholicism - they practice the opposite. If you believe the Gospels, Christ was a non-prejudicial, caring, giving, loving, open-minded person, and Conservatives do not embody any of those things. Instead they are staid, selfish, condescending, pejorative and close-minded. Christ is about as far away from modern Conservatives as you can get.
60
I am not Catholic, and I am a Christian.
What little I do know of the history of the Roman Church is that it often seems to be divided between a history of action/acts and theology/ideas, and that these two things always seem to be in contradiction to one another. The teachings of the Church that historically are the most problematic seem to yield an outcome opposite from the teachings of Christ. There is a two millennia history that includes the persecution of non-Christians, forced conversions, anti Semitism, misogyny, rigid views on sex and relationships, strict control of reproductive rights, and the promotion of a superior understanding of religious knowledge. All of this has come at a very high cost to those who, in short, are different - are other.
Exclusion, judgment, ridicule, shame, anger, cruelty, selfishness, deceit are not uncommon outcomes practiced by the Church hierarchy, through what feels like a very limited understanding of Christ's humanity and, for the most conservative Catholics, his divinity.
I will add that some of most moving and compassionate acts I've seen practiced by Catholics have been by those who have direct, meaningful engagement with communities. I have seen nuns and brothers practice acts of true selflessness and kindness; they are generous in a way that feels so rare and absent in our world. They practice acceptance, and do so without any judgements. It is inspiring, and should be a lesson for the men at the top of the Church.
16
A small correction: I meant to write I am NOT a Christian, but somehow didn't manage to do that. Just for clarification.
1
I roll with respect and admiration for all of the Catholic and Episcopalian nuns that I have met in my life. They dedicate their lives to helping others. They seem to have it right. Maybe the Catholic Church should ignore the male man-made garbage and become more like the nuns I know. It is like the sticker on my motorcycle says, "Catholic Nuns Rock".
18
@James Like many Catholics, I always assumed that nuns were clergy. They are not, the church considers them lay persons. They mostly make poverty-level salaries. And they often do menial work. I don't see them wearing fancy hats or scarlet robes.
Seems the boy's club forgot to read Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
2
I consider Pope Francis to be a breath of fresh air in a moldy decaying Church. He is trying to return to the teachings of Christ where everyone is included in the flock especially the marginalized and poorest on earth. Bishops like Burke, Dolan and Chaput are doing all they can to obstruct the progress Pope Francis yearns for and ignoring the wishes of the majority of Catholics who are now abandoning the authority Bishops once had. Personally, if a Bishop comes out with a directive, moral or otherwise, I divert to the opposite view and determine which is closest to Christ's teachings. The Bishop generally loses. We can be Catholic without Bishops or Conservative Priests. We simply ignore them.
17
@Philip W the bishops and the higher hierarchy in the church are pharisees, precisely what Christ rebelled against. I cannot respect any religion that claims to know the truth based on somebody's decree. I am actually very weary of religious people they can be dangerous because of their rigidity.
I suppose if your goal is to preserve patriarchy and power, make women even more subservient to men, force the unhappily married to remain together forever in misery, force women to have babies they do not want and cannot raise or support, then bury the aforementioned babies, now dead, possibly murdered to hide the "shame" of out-of-wedlock pregnancies in the backyard of Irish convents, burn heretics, and turn the world into a Catholic Iran based on a book written thousands of years ago, then Mr. Douthat has the right recipe for you. If, on the other hand, your goal is let people live as their spirits say provided they harm no on else, then run from that "church" as I did.
17
“ . . . the conservative Catholicism that believed John Paul II had permanently settled debates over celibacy, divorce, intercommunion and female ordination.”
Which debates are ever permanently settled? Whether it’s meat on Friday’s, nuns not wearing habits or Limbo perhaps not being the fate of unbaptized infants, the church has and will continue to evolve. Some will cling to the past and may separate before they modernize. If that’s what it takes to free the Catholic Church from the Middle Ages, let the schism begin.
336
@angus
Isn't the whole insider view of these fantastical gestures and discussions so irrelevant to anyone not living in the Middle Ages? I mean, really Ross, how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin? Schism?
I was severely raised Catholic, choir, altar boy, the whole works. I won't say superstition, but this whole column kind of reeks of a sort of cabal like system of enforcement.
25
@angus
The Catholic church is not of the Middle Ages but rather from the Dark Ages. That is where its dogmas ossified and have cast a shadow over European history ever since.
22
@Philip Brown
Wrong.
In the so-called Dark Ages it was the Catholic Church that kept learning alive in the West and tried to keep the Germanic tribal warlords who had taken control of Europe from chopping each other to pieces. Its centers were in monastic communities, many of them run by women, and they were dynamic, creative, and centers of hospitality--the only refuge for travelers and the sick.
In the so-called Middle Ages the Church's power focus moved to the cities and the bishops, and to the centers of political power such as the courts of royalty and nobility. While continuing to advance education, civilization and the arts, the hierarchy acquired far more political and economic power than was good for it.
After Martin Luther (among others) challenged the Church beyond its breaking point, it was the so-called Counter Reformation of the 17th century in which the Catholic Church doubled down on everything that the Reformers had disputed, and locked itself in a straitjacket of authoritarian, absolutist, legalistic, unchanging, infallible dogma.
25
Burke said “ I’m still teaching the same things I always taught and they’re not my ideas.“ Does that include what I was taught as a kid that all non-Catholics or Catholics that ate meat on Friday go to Hell? God continues to reveal new information and insights to every generation through his prophets. For today’s generation, His prophet is Pope Francis, not Cardinal Burke.
14
Spirituality is a wish that there is more than biologic existence. Religion is an invention that takes advantage of that wish.
Popes come and go, but in fact, there are no democratic religions and no free theocracies.
5
@rich
It's not a wish, it's a recognition.
4
@bob
To recognize that which is only imagined because there is not an iota of evidence is religion.
....the major project of the Francis era: the decentralization of doctrine and discipline, with priestly celibacy the latest rule that’s likely to soon vary across different Roman Catholic regions, as the interpretation of church teaching on divorce and remarriage already does."
This struggle within the Catholic Church is not grounded on issues of morals or ethics or faith for that matter but are organizational in character. One of the fundamental issues faced by the pope is the continuing decline of men entering the priesthood in the US and Europe. An example around here are the archdioceses of Newark and New York where there are about half the number of diocesan priests than they had in the 1970s. The world picture, though, is different.
Diocesan and religious priests have increased worldwide as the number of new priests in Europe and the US has decreased. Where the numbers of seminarians are consistently high is in Africa, Asia and Oceania, with Europe and America numbers also declining. Even in my own experience here, and in Europe, most of the priests I've known have been from Africa.
Keeping in mind where the Church is growing, Pope Francis, like popes have always done, is adjusting the church to respond to prevailing competition and organizational needs while adjusting doctrine as necessary. That is the genius behind papal infallibility, the ability to change doctrine while forcing compliance among the critics.
Meanwhile back at the ranch, Catholics are leaving the pews in droves. The RCC according to Pew the fastest shrinking denomination in the US. (And yes I know the other denominations are shrinking as well.) There are something like 17,000 parishes (down from 18,500+ in 1970) and 36,000 priests whose median age is 63 and climbing. Families are raising their children with values of equal opportunity for all and where in many of them the wives and mothers are doctors, lawyers, business executives, or serving in the military, while their local RCC church has a male only clergy. "Mommy can I be a priest? "No dear. " "But Mommy...." There is not a family today who does not have a gay family member, friend, or colleague and they resent having their loved ones described as 'objectively or intrinsically disordered." And the question is why should anyone born with a specific sexual preference be denied a fulfilling relationship? Making the RCC response that being gay is a handicap, or God's punishment. Celibacy is also perceived as a relic that should be relegated to where it rightly belongs. Finally the RCC has lost any moral authority it may have had in the ongoing and in perpetuity sexual abuse crisis. So conservatives cling to their life preservers as the ship continues to sink.
50
Have no fear, Ross.
"How long, and in what form, can a conservative opposition to the pope endure?"
I would like to think that the pope can erase conservative "theology". I am happy the pope is returning (be it ever so slowly) to scripture: the stoning (John's gospel), the judgement gospel (Matthew's gospel), the good Samaritan (Luke's gospel), I could go on.
The sad truth of the matter is that the pope is mortal and when he dies those conservatives will come bounding back with even more hatred.
17
This conflict between conservative Catholicism and adaptive Pope Francis Catholicism is a good example of why humanity does not need Catholicism or any religion to live a spiritual life. It is within each of us to personally discover a goodness which transcends ourselves and the world we live in, and to live by the single golden rule, rather than by any organized religion's rules.
24
As a cradle Catholic, and nearly 70, I know what the lives of real Catholics were like before birth control and when divorce was a scandal. I realize the Mr. Douthat is both much younger and is a convert. But since we are condemned to repeat history, when we are ignorant of it, perhaps the writer should spend some time reading about the lives of misery that were inflicted upon those who followed the teachings of the Church too closely. I would start by reading the lyrics of old folk songs that tell of young women pregnant and abandoned. Or perhaps, read Angela’s Ashes, which gives a great account of pious Irish suffering under belligerent priests.
I am still proud of the effort of many nuns and priests who dedicated their lives to the poor, devotion reflected in the Catholic worker movement, and in much of Catholic Charities today. But all I hear from Douthat’s devotion to conservative Catholicism sounds like a focus of rules without real content. Does Douthat believe that God made gay men and women but that they can never know love? Or that Catholic women should stop using birth control and have child after child? And what about the poor? Francis seems to follow Jesus regarding the poor. The well fed clerics leading the anti-abortion march looks like self satisfied business men who would sneer at the poor if they even met them.
95
@Terry McKenna The very sad truth is that religion is totally useless. It is irrelevant and passé. If we cling to it we are basically doing a great harm to humanity. If religions were to disappear from the face of the earth that is the day when we humans will start to breath and progress.
3
Why should anyone follow any church, they just keep moving the goal post to fit there needs [ money ]. You know the people who follow the church say they are under attack. They say that they're values as a faith are being questioned by the non faithful. I do not question the values of the faithful I question how they go about following them. I do not know about others but when I look through the window I see power and money being debated not faith. They do not care about souls they care about the number of souls because numbers translate into money.
7
Mr. Douthat: Might it not be reasonable to view the theological controversies presently roiling the Roman Catholic Church as signs of institutional health rather than those of decay? Live organisms are organisms in flux; they adopt, adapt, debate, discard, renew, repulse, resolve, synthesize, reject, accept, accommodate, converse and convert. In short, they change. Dead organisms just lie there and stagnate. Change is, by definition, neither good nor bad -- it's merely dialectic working its way to the surface. Why is it not possible to celebrate the doctrinal debates emerging in Francis' papacy as a sign of health and vitality?
43
Conservative Catholics are compromised and uncertain lacking the courage to make a decision for either Liberal or Traditional Catholicism.
The Catholic Church is in defacto schism. "Pope" Francis leads the heretical element while no one in particular is charge of the Traditional orthodox Catholicism
Few Catholics are involved in this debate or know much about it. Most Bishops and Cardinals are silent. And anti-pope Francis, as he is called by some Traditionalists, just feeds the fire of apostasy. He has told an interviewer he does think Jesus was God and that Jesus didn't resurrected from the dead. Rather he is more interested in environmental sustainability and a One World Government.
What we have been seeing for the last 50 years is the collapse of the Catholic Church as it transitions from heavenly to earthly concerns. Pope Francis has made that abundantly clear. Question: What will be God's next move?
6
@Michael Dowd If you read the Bible, you would know that earthly concerns ARE half of Christianity and the Bible, if not more.
- Care for the poor and sick, decent treatment of neighbors and immigrants, and equal justice for rich and poor are all ESSENTIAL parts Christian faith, in addition to heavenly concerns.
As the Bible says: faith without works is dead. And basically the same as atheism.
4
@Michael Dowd God's next move will be displayed on that earthly canvas. Via human agency, or lack of it, there will be climate catastrophe and ensuing suffering and strife. Boom times for those who can offer comfort and peace.
1
Amazing. That the mind of a clearly intelligent man can be hamstrung on so many unwarranted assumptions that it sets itself to work so furiously on such ultimately inconsequential issues. It’s like watching a Rube Goldberg machine—all that complicated activity for so simple and small an action.
45
When I was in the Church I was taught in no uncertain terms that the Pope is infallible. Conservative clergy were the most emphatic that the authority of the Pope is absolute.
Now ultra right wing Cardinal Burke tells us in his interview with Mr. Douthat that Pope Francis isn't infallible because his liberal pronouncements on doctrine don't conform to the Cardinal's rigid sense of canon law, which is code for that Old Time Religion of damnation and hellfire.
In a breathtaking display of hubris and bad faith, Cardinal Burke declares the Pope in schism and not himself because received doctrine trumps Pope Francis who apparently is confused about the Church being welcoming and inclusive instead of exclusive, judgemental and punitive.
The entire interview with Burke reeks of false humility, sanctimony, and a double helping of hypocrisy.
Church doctrine has never been static. Burke's condemnation of abortion reflects Church doctrine that in 1869 supplanted earlier doctrine that for a millennium held a human embryo -- a collection of cells -- couldn't be infused with a soul until it assumed human form signaled by "quickening" or when a mother first felt fetal movement at around 5 to 6 months.
So Burke's strident anti-abortion militancy is by his logic a schism from previous canon law and Pope Pius IX acted in apostasy by declaring life present at conception.
If Burke says he isn't the enemy of the Pope, I can't imagine what the Pope's real enemies are like.
180
This is all well and interesting...but it seems inherent to the editorial that catholic conservatism is a good thing? Or at least it is never explained why people like Burke truly feel "revolutionary" ideas like women in the priesthood, and priests not having to pretend to be celibate are detrimental to me the Catholic cause?
I'm wiling listen to an argument about why we should adhere to archaic ideas like those that are to be found no where in the bible and alienate a huge portion of the population....but what exactly are those arguments?
19
Many reasonable adults find themselves coming back as mass-goers despite the failings of the Church. The festivals which mark the period of the year are often woven into Christian celebrations which in turn are based on local traditions such as the start of year in ancient Ireland on November 1st or Halloween as it became within the Christian calendar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listoghil
The secularists, in rejecting Christianity via the failings of the Church, also lose the gentle celebrations which mark their journey from child through adulthood and the world is so much worse off. When the Church made decisions after the Galileo affair, it cut parishioners off from the very heart of our nature where our lives respond not only to the linear progression of time but to the great cycles of the day and year which encompass our existence.
The Victorian mathematicians made time only a linear issue even though they were only dithering around with timekeeping so Christian have been further cut off from the relationship between temporal existence and Eternal existence into which we entered the world.
I am sure the politics of the clergy is interesting but Christians can do so much better.
6
@G Kelleher
Halloween is October 31st.
1
Read the book of Judges. It portends what's happening to the world generally, and the Catholic church specifically.
Peace reigns for a while. Bad leaders take over. Evil in all its forms runs rampant. Then it takes good leadership to right the ship and the entire cycle starts again.
In Judges the cycles last anywhere from 20 - 100 years. I'm guessing we're right on the precipice of the fruits of bad leadership beginning to sprout.
So the slow-motion disaster that has become the Catholic Church is likely destined to get a lot worse before it gets better. Same goes for the world.
6
For most of my childhood, I spent almost every Sunday on a wooden seat, staring at some priest behind a pulpit, lecturing me about God's love. Before I even hit my teens, I remember wondering how someone who's not allowed to love another human being could know anything about God's love, how a Church that only allowed men to be leaders could claim any love for me. It wasn't a deep theological debate; just a kid's view of common sense. The sermon remained in Latin long after the people in the pew stopped learning it. Things change.
34
Let the church remain unchanged in its teachings. Hold on to the very teachings and practices that have driven people away. Maintain that high moral ground that encourages judgment and exclusion of others. And with each passing decade it will become even less relevant in people's lives.
That should answer your question, Ross. May you enjoy the sound of one hand clapping.
52
I guess I should care about the answer to the question posed by the title of this column, but only because the Church is huge and wealthy and influential in politics. When I think about the facts that there is no god, the universe is about 13 billion years old, and when we die we simply go out of existence, the fate of conservative Catholicism just doesn't seem very important.
34
I will leave the future of conservative Roman Catholics to you, Mr. Douthat. I will only observe that, of late, they seem to have join forces politically in America with white conservative evangelicals, which in my view is tantamount to leaving the generous circle of the gospel far behind.
But I must point out a grievous error in your essay. You cite John Henry Newman as holding the opinion of Burke that true church teachings are by definition unchanging.
In fact Cardinal Newman held no such position. In his Essay on the Development of Doctrine, the first major work after he converted to Catholicism, he argued that in fact true doctrine has a kind of unfolding life history. Truth doesn’t change; but the church’s grasp of truth certainly does, and therefore doctrine has a historical development that can be traced. Doctrines develop.
This is the position of Francis, not Burke.
One sentence in his book sums it up: “To live is to change, to be perfect is to have changed often.” Would that we all could live by these wise, thoughtful, humanly catholic words.
112
@Paul C. McGlasson Darn you, Paul! You wrote the letter I wanted to.
5
@Paul C. McGlasson Thankyou! I was furious that he used Newman to bolster an argument for unchange when Newman is so strong on the development of doctrine. Ironic too that the quote he used was, I believe, in the context of the Arian heresy and Newman's observations, also strong, on the illative sense of the faithful coming to the fore, an experience we have had in our own lifetime in the non-resonance and rejection by the faithful (especially women) of the teaching on contraception. Something I am sure Burke &Co deplore.
10
Mr. Douthat persists in saying something that is not true. Pope Francis is not making any changes in the Church’s teachings on divorce and remarriage. His position remains that a sacramental marriage is indissoluble. (One can argue whether that should be the Church’s position or whether it’s really what Jesus taught, but that’s another matter.)
What Francis is saying is that the Church’s traditional RESPONSE to people who remarry after a divorce—denying them the Eucharist (Communion), which is the center of Catholic life—needs to be rethought, and in fact implemented in a more merciful fashion.
Of course, conservatives and traditionalists of all stripes are more concerned with the enforcement of rules and punishment than they are with with mercy, so it’s not surprising that Mr. Douthat would find this change troubling.
But people who don’t follow the ins and outs of Catholic thought should at least hear the truth about what Francis is thinking.
48
@MJ "Where mercy love and pity dwell, there God is
dwelling too." Author unknown.
1
Graduating from high school after 12 years of Catholic education back in 1959, I had a simple understanding of these matters. The Pope was the infallible vicar of Christ on earth and he could not be wrong about a question of faith or morals. Everybody argued, the Pope thought and prayed, God guided his judgment, and that was that. Not like a bunch of Protestants, endlessly arguing and endlessly dividing like amoebae.
Theologians might have a had a more sophisticate view, but I think mine was that of the people in the pews. My seventeen-year-old self would have found this entire column incomprehensible. If the Pope's teachings are debatable, what's the point of being Catholic? Which is one of many reasons why I'm not.
18
I compliment Mr. Oser on his brilliant description of any religious person who simply follows the tenets of his parents.
In my mind, a person who has been given no other way of deducting, analyzing, or questioning, has simply been brainwashed to join a certain cult since childhood.
We should be able to create a community of understanding for all of us. Most of us have a need for an event for celebration (weddings, deaths) but they do not have to be cloaked in a religious context. Why do we do that still?
We will all die, many of us get married and we don't need a church to be able to celebrate those.
We may now understand about the current stresses inside the Catholic church. They have lost their sense of relevance in the life of, or power over, average people.
Please read "Trinity" by Leon Uris for a description of how the Catholic Church managed Ireland for centuries. It should open your mind, since Ireland only in the last few decades managed to remove itself from this toxic rule.
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church is now moving into other areas, such as Africa, to continue its attempt to control populations that are trying to stand up against controls of any kind, whether they are fascists or religious. In my mind, they are all the same.
15
@Merete Cunningham And the secularists in places like China and Colorado carefully guard freedom, e.g. of Uighurs and bakers?
3
@Andrew Lohr
You're changing the subject. Nonetheless, government oppression of the Uighurs has nothing to do with government seeking to protect the civil rights of gay people, which as it happens many religious people support. Neither example, nor both together, can support any generalizations about "secularists," whatever they may be. The First Amendment provides for freedom FROM religion as well as of it, and for good reason as demonstrated by the history of religion including specifically the Roman Catholic one.
7
@Andrew Lohr How dare you compare the plight of Uighurs and Christian Fundamentalists. Outrageous!!!!!
2
As far as most Americans are concerned this article might as well be about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. In practice few people care much about what the Pope or the Cardinal says about anything unless it comports with their politics. The fact that the typical american Catholic family these days has only two or three kids, in obvious defiance, or ignorance, of what the church represents as it's most basic doctrines gives a real sense of the indifference. What influence the church still has is largely from centuries of cultural momentum but it (thankfully) is disintegrating fast.
31
@TJGM I could not have said it any better. The real injustice is that churches still don't pay property taxes increasing the burden on everyone else. If people want to believe the nonsense, that's their privilege but don't ask me to contribute.
7
The lead picture shows Bishop Burke in a parade protesting abortion. As a secular Protestant, I don't understand a lot of the controversy within the Catholic church over abortion. AFAIK, this centers on the question of when does life begin. Genesis 2:7 teaches us " ... formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." I recognize that as mankind's understanding of the natural world (dominion) has changed, there can be a lot of arm-waving justifying the church's position. But the author of Genesis seems pretty clear on the question.
4
The Catholic Church should not be focused on liberal vs. conservative ideologies. But humans, being the inevitably political creatures they are, make it so. While I understand that people have different tolerances for change, the Gospel doesn't change and living the truths it proclaims is most important.
I don't agree with some of the pushes of liberalism in the Church and I don't agree with much of the conservative thinking. But what I agree with is not nearly so important as how I live my life. Suppose a practical change made in good faith (married priests in the Amazon) ends up being a mistake in the end. The Church can survive that far better than it can survive endless infighting.
If a Pope were altering the core teachings of Christianity I would be more alarmed. But that is not what he is doing. I see Pope Francis teaching and modeling love and compassion for all people - as he juggles trying to meet the needs of millions across vastly different cultures and geographical areas. Anyone who thinks this is an easy task is out of touch with the world we live in.
Perhaps we could all benefit from loving and praying more and criticizing less.
14
@drmaryb Perhaps we could love more and not pray at all. If prayer worked, would we have a president who looted a non profit organization designed to help children? I know, we're being tested. In fact, the test is over and our species failed.
3
@JM
To pray IS to love. One of the biggest misconceptions about prayer is that it means we ask God for what we want and He is supposed to supply it. If He doesn't, prayer "doesn't work".
One of the problems with this model of prayer is that doesn't necessarily involve any real relationship with God in which we trust in His goodness and love - He could be a cosmic vending machine designed to provide for our wishes. It puts us in charge and presumes that what our wills would produce the best outcome, if only God would fulfill them. We want His power but not His love. I think, as you point out, that there is sufficient evidence that we do not know what is best for ourselves - though we all think we do.
To truly pray, is to learn to know God and trust in His ultimate goodness and love. And, as we grow closer to Him, we grow closer to everyone else (for He loves them too). Likewise, if we love and pray for others, we grow closer to God.
Our species has indeed "failed" - and has from the beginning. There is redemption - but it doesn't come from us.
I'm glad you spend a lot of time ruminating on the future of The Roman Catholic Church, but Sir, I doubt that is proper fodder for your NYTimes column or columns. Being the good conservative that you are, why not let the market place decide what happens. If people buy into Roman Catholic viewpoints, they will fill the pews, if not, not so much. I was never a Christian so Roman Catholicism has never been an option for me, but if I were and it was, it would not be my choice. I prefer to worship in an environment that fabricates my thinking about what is right and wrong and helps me get to being the person I wish to be, not tells me how I absolutely must behave and believe, but hey I respect the rights of others to make the choice of such a restrictive environment.
The main point I am trying to make, Mr. Douthat is that you are so consumed by your relationship with the Roman Catholic Church that you can not view any issue outside of that frame of reference.
65
@William S. Oser “ I prefer to worship in an environment that fabricates my thinking about what is right and wrong and helps me get to being the person I wish to be, not tells me how I absolutely must behave and believe ...”
I’m a cradle Catholic, and I have been lucky enough to have had just the experience that Mr, Oser wishes for himself. Not every parish or priest or school is as rigid as the common stereotype would have you believe.
And certainly not everyone subscribes to the vision of Church that Mr Douthat espouses.
12
@William S. Oser I am not a Catholic, not a conservative nor a free marketeer. But your question "why not let the market place decide what happens," seems to reveal a profound misunderstanding about Catholicism and Conservatism. The fact that conservatives (in the US only?) have embraced free markets only masks the fundamental hostility of conservative thinking towards the profoundly classical-liberal idea of "let the market decide". Conservatism starts from a canon of basic values ─or, if you will, one basic value: virtue. That is, moral values do have to withstand the basically moral-free market where it is in violation of virtue.
Catholicism has a broader base than just virtue, i.e. the basic tenets of the faith such as the Holy Trinity, Christ'a sacrifice and resurrection, etc. The battle between conservative and progressive Catholicsm is about what exactly this base includes, whether e.g. the accrued issues of priests' celibacy, the sacrament of marriage (yes, an addition!), papal infallacy (a far more recent addition) must be preserved in the Catholic canon. Mr. Burke seems to adhere, as so many conservatives do, to a particular version of the doctrine frozen in time.
One of the main aspects where conservative and progressive Catholics do not diverge is in the social teachings of the Church. There was no difference between Popes John Paul, Benedict, and Francis on the evils and amorality of the unfettered, free market.
3
Thank you, Ross, for reminding my why I left the Catholic Church. It is an institution not rooted in "divine right" but in very human decisions based on the ethos of centuries ago. The structure is patriarchal and medieval in its authoritarianism. From the evolution of women's rights to equality for LGBTQ people, the Church is seriously out of step. Combine that with the mythologies of centuries ago that we are still supposed to believe and the rampant corruption of pedophilia, it is difficult to see how any thinking person can remain a Catholic.
94
"and a reason to embrace T.S. Eliot’s poetic admonition: There is yet faith, but the faith and the hope and the love are all in the waiting."
While you wait, Mr. Douthat, think about this:
‘We both step and do not step in the same rivers. We are and are not’ (B49a). (Heraclitus). (I realize there is no small degree of irony in citing Heraclitus of Ephesus re the Pope and the Catholic Church. Life is full of ironies).
Both we change and the river changes.
Reality is change and flow.
Rivers though don't flow backwards.
13
I missed the part where the pope and other clergy discussed the crises of global warming and income inequality. I think Christ would have been interested.
The synod might as well have been arguing about what shade of crimson is most appropriate for their sashes. The rituals of the church were invented to hide the reality that it has no relevance to the life we humans live daily and no connection whatsoever to the core of what Jesus taught.
The only things the catholic church is trying to preserve is its male hegemony and its vast wealth. Is that what you want to "conserve?"
110
@mhood8
Perhaps you did miss them. Have you read Pope Francis' Laudato Si, his encyclical on the environment? There are a number of encyclicals on justice in the context of labor as well - and they ARE concerned about workers. If you want to reject the Catholic Church, that is your right. But perhaps you may want to check out what you are rejecting. I agree that columns like this focus on the wrong things - the media like a good controversy much more than they want to talk about the values and virtues of the Church and its leaders.
23
It should be noted that Francis’ popularity among the faithful remains solid in face of the “conservative” backlash as represented by Cardinal Burke. As a practicing Catholic, I find the so-called doctrinal assertions of “pius” traditionalists regarding priestly celibacy, homosexuality, communion for the divorced, birth control, etc. as fundamentally absurd, grounded in a knee jerk obeisance to an alleged sola scriptura that imperils the church’s mission to grow and remain relevant with Christ at its center.
35
@the doctor "Sola scriptura" is, or was, the battle cry of the Protestants. I is not the RC view, which allows for development of doctrine and practise.
1
Before Benedict and John Paul II “settled” a long list of questions in favor of the conservatives, the Second Vatican Counsel decided many of them in the other direction. It is easy to forget that Liberals were stiffled for decades and many of the conclusions of earlier popes and synods were undone by recent conservatives.
In his disobedience to the authority of the Pope, Burke borders on heresy and schism. His fancy lawyering that somehow claims the Pope cannot change past decisions of the Pope is such nonsense. Fortunately the Pope has been wise to not take the bait and engage with him and his fellow dubians.
77
We all look forward to Mr. Douthat’s explanation of his divorce in 2030. One wonders how he will justify his moral failures when the time comes. Sure.y he won’t succumb to temptation like so many others.
10
Oh, for Pete's sake (pun intended)
The Cardinal Burkes of the world are not as guileless as Douthat would argue. There's a wealth of relatively traditional scholarship that has looked at times when the church's views on marriage, celibacy, homosexuality, etc, have shifted in major ways. And this is without getting into the question of what to do about the wealth of historical popes who, shall we say, were motivated by things other than church doctrine or heritage. When Burke pulls his "I haven't changed" schtick, he is arguing aggressively for a particular slate of dogma that is very historically specific, mostly to the era of John Paul II. He is certainly not arguing for a definable historic truth of the faith, nor is he arguing with for an inquiry into the history, present, and future of the faith with the humility and intellectual honesty to be expected of a prelate of his stature.
46
None of this would be controversial had the Fifth Lateran Council in 1512 not utterly rejected Conciliarism the movement that argued for synodical government of the Western Church. In so doing, they shut down any potential for reform by the faithful from the bottom up and also incidentally empowered the real Reformers in Luther, Calvin, Zwingli et al. Reform delayed becomes reform amplified many times over. Burke et al, by denying the possibility for doctrinal development, merely lock in stresses that eventually fracture in tectonic ruptures.
25
It is a misconception among American conservatives that the Catholic church is a conservative body.
The Catholic church, according to its principles is conservative in the sense that it is highly deliberative on matters of religion. There, ideas evolve over decades if not centuries. Moreover, the Church is authoritative, but not authoritarian. One does encounter authoritarianism inside the clergy itself, but that reflects church organization.
American conservatives, like Plato, yearn for an ancient priestly wisdom. Plato found it in the religion of ancient Egypt. For American conservatives, the Catholic Church makes for a possible stand-in.
That is misplaced. The Catholic Church will never advocate the free market; it's attitudes toward the poor are diametrically opposite those of the Republican Party.
19
@Kevin Blankinship Excellent summary!
1
Douthat seems blissfully unaware of the oxymoron contained in the phrase "conservative opposition to the pope." Conservatism would respect papal leadership. Douthat is actually endorsing a reactionary revolution: reactionary in its attempt to move the Church back several centuries; revolutionary in its resistance to authority rooted in doctrine.
Married priests have never been contrary to doctrine. The Roman church welcomes with open arms married priests and bishops who convert from Anglican and Eastern orders to Catholicism. They continue to perform their ecclesiastical functions, and they continue to be married. If these men can be married and serve holy orders, the only obstacle to the marriage of Catholic priests is the retrograde opinion of those who are more Catholic than the Pope. Surely Douthat wouldn't include himself in that number.
96
@seoul cooker Also, the Eastern Rites have always had married priests. (The Chatholic church has several "rites," the Roman or Latin rite being the largest. All rites are considered full and equal, and all are under the authority of the Pope.)
12
If I may refer to the companion piece to this essay: A conversation with Cardinal Raymond Burke. Cardinal Burke stated that "clearly Christ constituted the church as a hierarchical communion." Clearly he did not. I give you Matthew 6:26-34 ...{26} "birds of the air;" {28} "lilies of the field;" {34} "do not worry about tomorrow..." Christ brought revelation, people {men} brought hierarchy. And herein lies the battle between Conservatism which needs to transform radical thought into dogma supported by organization, and its opposite which revels in the radical sometimes without bounds. Of course we will never solve this dilemma and instead retreat into whatever traditions we find comfort in.
16
Seems to be a lot of blathering over norms left behind ages ago. I can't relate, and these episodes bolster my decision to leave the church decades ago.
37
What are the "disastrous innovations" and "false ideas" Douthat is talking about? The piece begins with a discussion on whether priests in remote areas of the Amazon, underserved by clergy, should allow priests to marry. All priests in the Catholic Church could marry up until about the 12th century. Today, under Popes JP II and Benedict, there have been hundreds of married priests, converts from other Christian denominations, including the priest who was the best pastor our parish has had. Even under JPII and Benedict, the priesthood was drying up. The church had better adjust, as it has scores of times in its history whatever Douthat and Cardinal Burke may believe, or soon there will be no one saying Mass.
77
@Scott Farris married priests -- y es! Married women and men
priests!
4
When did Catholicism become conservative anyway? It's sure not in the New Testament. Losing it won't be much of a loss.
116
I'm a Jew in Latin America. I.e. I come into daily social contact with lots of Roman Catholics daily. The synod was discussed in my presence day-after-day. Ditto Pope Francis, for that matter.
Mr Douthat refers to Pope John Paul II as some sort of touchstone to be admired.
RCs here took the synod to be a repudiation of P JP II due to his support for and adulation of Fr Marcial Maciel who was finally removed by P Benedict XVI.
Priestly sexual and financial abuses are still a hot topic for many people here.
The least charitable view the conservatives/traditionalists who are objecting to P Francis's changes as agents in the (continuing?) cover-ups of abuse, as perhaps being abusive themselves and as greedy politicians.
Yes, everyone is waiting. Memento mori.
35
There are certain core beliefs of the Catholic faith, i.e. the Nicene Creed and the belief the Eucharist is the body and blood of the living Christ. Beyond these professed beliefs, given the diversity of cultures, languages, and experiences of the people of this world, seems to me for the Church to be universal (i.e. catholic) going forward, the Church needs at least to be open to discuss and discern how it approaches the world if enough of its Body believes such change is needed to effectively profess Christ’s Gospel message to that world.
16
I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for conservatives who find themselves on the short end of the theological stick these days.
I did though find Burke's explanations of his positions fascinating, particularly the idea that schism is anathema-- to be avoided at all costs.
I wonder if conservatives like Mr. Douthat will remember that and follow his example when liberals move to change Church doctrine on married or female priests.
Doubtful.
15
The bad news: every generation has its own brand of “conservative Catholics “ with existential concerns about the future of the church. The good news, “conservative Catholics” are many levels above apocalyptic Girolamo Savonarola. The church keeps moving, albeit slowly, and embracing change as a response to a changing world. Change is discomforting, that’s why people rely on faith to soothe and guide them.
4
Mr Douthat can't have it his way. He yearns for a Conservative, infallible, just, everlasting Church in his own image.
But the Church was, is, and ,if it endures, will ever be, the seat of power for the sole benefit of those who control it. Over centuries it has been ever the Chameleon. Of course it will adopt the mores and beliefs of those who inhabit areas which they find the most fertile for growth.
.
16
If religious doctrine and practices are given to man by God then those serving in the Church must, by definition, be conservative--they must conserve, preserve, and transmit that which has been entrusted to them.
If religious doctrine and practices are made by men then there is no reason they shouldn't be changed and modified to better meet the needs of a changing world (and indeed, if this is the case, they should).
The foundation and nature of Christianity should determine how the church should operate.
3
After all the reports of hushed-up sexual abuse and economic self-dealing by bishops who live in splendor, it's really hard to get excited about the pronouncements of the upper level of the clergy. Ross, all this may be catnip to you, but it has little to do with the effort to live a Christ-like life. If what are referred to as conservatives had anything to offer the average layperson, they would not feel so side-lined and ignored. As it is, they are irrelevant.
121
I am a 66 year old cradle Catholic with an inordinate amount of respect and love for my Church. My enforced separation from it causes me great pain. Being a gay man, married to my Catholic grammar school chum from 60 years ago sadly makes me unwelcome in many, if not all Catholic Churches. Indeed, my own Bishop of Brooklyn said my marriage was akin to me marrying my dog. Happily, Pope Francis gives me hope that the Church perhaps might, with his help, be as welcoming and forgiving as Christ Himself.
I was on a street in Rome about a year and a half ago and whilst waiting for my spouse to come from the laundry, I spied a rather bizarre cleric walking toward me. Even by Roman standards, he was absurdly dressed in “over the top” clerical garb more suitable to the 19th century than the 21st - black silk cassock down too the shoes. I immediately recognized him as Cardinal Burke and I resisted the urge to confront him, although I so wanted to give him a piece of my mind, but I thought to what end? He was alone and seemed a little vulnerable and I rather a little sorry for him. I took the high road and merely nodded a “good morning.”
Later that same day I was passing by one of Rome’s upscale clerical clothing supply stores, with some very sumptuous silk vestments and the like displayed in the window. An Italian woman with her family in tow looked at the display and uttered to her husband “shameless” and that about sums up Cardinal Burke.
342
@JMartin please come to St Boniface in downtown Brooklyn you will be welcomed there
17
i am a Grahame Green catholic,Still need the gift of faith but still an advocate for Catholicism because of it practice of tolerance .That is great gift of Fancies .
7
As a defrocked and excommunicated priest explained during a talk at my Unitarian fellowship, he had left the Catholic church (so he could marry) because he grew increasingly tired of the Church's rigid obsession with "matters pelvic". Priestly (and sisterly) celibacy began not because of anything Jesus taught but rather to preserve the property of the Church and preclude any children produced by priestly sexual activity from inheriting. The obsession with "matters pelvic" is fundamentally about controlling women. Sexual activity before marriage is regarded by the Church as a mortal sin, as is sex within marriage for pleasure and contraception, not to mention masturbation, homosexuality and especially abortion. Pope Francis has hardly questioned Church doctrine about "matters pelvic" but rather challenged the hierarchy to be less rigid and authoritarian in it's treatment of the faithful and always show God's mercy when they confess any sin.
34
Not very long if they continue not only to turn a blind eye to the pure evil that is Trump but also actively to support his policies, and practices, which include savage attacks on immigrants, a lifetime of disgusting sexual assaults on women, the rolling back of environmental regulations, pulling out of the climate accord, gutting health care for Americans, trying to destroy NATO, being the puppet for the atheist and KGB man, everyday lying, cheating and, yes, bribery to mention but a few. These so-called Catholics, yes, looking at you Mr. Barr and all you so-called "conservative Supreme Court justices (read supporters of big business, corporate personhood, etc.) are nothing of the sort. They pontificate about how their precious world is being destroyed. Jesus was - get this - a radical. He preached giving away wealth to help the poor not amassing sickening billions in the hands of the very few. Be honest for a minute and imagine what a country this would be if so-called radical liberal policies such as making sure that people had a fair wage and health care and a real opportunity at higher (including technical) education; protection of the environment; fighting climate change; building a world class public transit system; investing in quality schools for all children; and, yes, much higher taxes on those who have tens or hundreds of millions of dollars or much more.
209
In a recent column, Ross outlines an argument that the recent decline in American Christianity is largely a Catholic problem. Many mainline Protestants have decamped for more evangelical denominations, and so the overall American Protestant population has been more stable than native-born Catholics.
So how did Protestants achieve this? By exploiting their legacy of schism. An undercurrent of Ross's writings is that the mainline Protestant churches have been in decline precisely as their leadership has turned left on many social and theological issues. More conservative lay people then had many options in terms of more conservative or Pentecostal or non-denominational Protestant churches. The fact that there is no one hierarchy for Protestant churches essentially helped faithful Christians remain in church, just not the same one.
On the other hand, Catholics have fewer options when their leadership's views diverge from those of the faithful. Many Catholic liberals left the church as the hierarchy became more conservative under John Paul II, and as there is no Catholic alternative, disgruntled parishioners may leave Christianity entirely instead of switching denominations. This accounts for the Catholic decline among US Christians. Perhaps Pope Francis's solution of allowing more theological and social options within the Catholic Church is correct, to keep a diverse flock in the pews. Or maybe like the Protestants, schism is not always a bad option.
7
This whole fight seems very similar to the unending "originalist VS living constitution" debate. The only difference is that we have the power to amend the US Constitution itself to resolve any specific conflict or even that big question itself were we as a people so much in desire of and had the will-made-of-steel for it. The supposed sacredness, perfection and infallibility of religious scripture despite the contradictions that have necessitated all the gobbledygook every thoughtful person from Augustine through Thomas Aquinas and Kierkegaard and so on HAD to write in order to "make sense" of it all but only inspired more questions than they answered is one of the major reasons I left the Church and all of religion altogether. "Circular arguments" are no real argument at all. And Ross pretty much ironically admits to it with (or, more likely, gets betrayed to this admission by) this article.
I will always have a soft spot for the Church but this is all really fun intellectual exercise for me at this point.
7
@Dr. Feelgood, I had the same thought about originalism. The Constitution was always a living document. I'm not sure just when originalists gained the upper hand but they are wrong. When I think of Brown V Board of Education and all the other changes in our Constitution that just recognized that the Constitution actually had already granted those rights to people, just not in practice. These rights had just gone unrecognized because of our patriarchal origins. We still have a long ways to go and many of those in government and judicial leadership, if not Catholic, still have an authoritarian view. Same with the Catholic Church.
1
Mr Douthat,
My church has let me down on so many levels I almost don’t know where to start. Born and raised in Michigan I had the good fortune of living my adult life out west. I’m back for family reasons and my conservative Catholic friends are down with the adulter in chief because of his support of pro life. It would be laughable except last week in church the priest ended mass asking parishioners to sign a petition trying to overturn the current law. What happened to the separation of church and state?
During my first month back the local Catholic high school fired their softball coach because she had the audacity to marry her partner. I spent 12 years in parochial education and just can’t wrap my arms around how we view gays as being a threat to our society. Is this really what we’ve become?
My relationship with my church is suffering and I don’t think that I’m alone. Obama was bad because he believed that women should have the right to make their own choices, but Trump represents our values.
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This discussion feels as though it has gotten into the weeds. Would Jesus, the one who leads us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, etc. recognize the church in this editorial? Celibacy is a discipline of the Western church for those ordained. It is not theology. Eastern Catholics (Maronite & Uniate) allow their candidates for priesthood to be ordained if they are married first--and then there are the former Anglican priests who can become Catholic priests. Priests in the Western Church married until the 11th century. I'm not sure Jesus would recognize what has become of his church. It strikes me that being pastoral is the better way than screaming from the ramparts:"It is the law!"
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@Habakkukb Amen!!
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@Habakkukb - Jesus would be slain as a dangerous "insurgent".
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Reading columns such as this one, I genuinely feel sorry for the author. It is a great strain and ultimately an impossibility to uphold hierarchy for so long and then decide that you can reject an aspect of hierarchy but somehow still uphold it after all. One or the other; not both.
As the child of Catholic parents, I think that Douthat and other conservatives are fiddling as Rome burns. The great crisis of the church isn't doctrine; it is the extraordinary failure to respond adequately to priestly misconduct. The example of Christ is a great one, but Catholic leadership hasn't consistently acted on it.
As a liberal protestant, I think that Douthat is wrong in conflating changes within the church and contemporary protestantism: Pope Francis is a very long way from protestant tenets and practices. The label "liberal protestantism" seems more like a convenient way to avoid coming to terms with his papacy, above all, his attempts to reconcile the church with the teachings of Christ.
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@Jeannette Rankin - To paraphrase Jimi Hendrix, "They're livin' in the past, Ah Yes, They're livin' in the past…"
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@Jeannette Rankin
On the contrary, the greatest crisis of the Catholic, and any other Christian Church is how they ignore the teachings and mission of the original Christian in favor of riches, ritual, orthodoxic squabbling and temporal like power.
Jesus would have condemned the lot of them from Pope to parish priest.
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Mr. Kristof,
Rather than focusing on the wonderful things mentioned -- gardening, pets, communal activities etc -- what about taking a whack at the core of the problem?
Consider the following truths:
1) We have outsourced raising future generations of our species to the poor and disadvantaged.
2) There is no more effective catalyst to academic achievement and upward mobility, than children receiving the gifts of one or more mentors.
3) Being genuinely needed and loved by a child is the absolute best, heart-melting antidote for loneliness and depression
So, the silver bullet -- A Marshall Plan-level effort. Help youths and adults identify their best gifts, and match them up with children, who thirst for those very gifts.
The results will change the World.
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@Mark Keller
I think you intended this for Kristof’s column, but it was sent to Douthat’s instead. It’s still a good comment. ;)
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Thanks for the reminder of why after 50 years I left the Catholic Church.
I am too devoted to the teachings of Jesus to allow the subversiveness of these men - always men - who continue to make rules with no root in the teachings of Jesus and in many cases in direct opposition.
Despite the Catholic teaching, Jesus Christ did not found the Catholic Church. That would be Constantine 400 years later.
Read Acts for an idea of how early Christianity worked and ho far astray the Catholic Church, and many Protestant denominations have strayed.
It saddens me. Both the author and the cardinal are badly mistaken.
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Can't blame people these days searching for order and verities. But the Conservative wing of the Catholic Church has little to prop it up except the hidebound rules that fewer and fewer Catholics care to follow. A religion that promotes this kind of disobedience cannot last long as anything but a fringe movement. Nothing wrong with being part of that fringe. You just have to accept that your particular spiritual regimen speaks not to others who seek order and verities through other means.
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“I haven’t changed", said Cardinal Raymond Burke.
That's the problem.
Humanity must evolve or die.
Religion is dying because it doesn't like to evolve, because it's too enamored with its medieval textbooks, sacraments and tall tales to lift its intellect and sensibility out of the 4th century.
Time to prepare your church's eulogy, Brother Douthat.
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@Socrates - Religion is dying because the institutional church is married to its perquisites. We see evidence of this around 1100, when priestly celibacy became popular, and then dogma. Why? Because married priests were split in their duties, affections and the distribution of their worldly goods between their families and the church. Can't have that, especially the last.
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@Socrates I always look for your comments for the shear enjoyment of your thoughts. Here, you disappointed.
Your confusion of terms has your thoughts mixed up. How one conducts themselves (language, symbols, dress) changes and the organization should accommodate or lose relevance. Truth cannot change. Those old books are studied in search of truth. Not everything taught back then is true. What is discovered to not be true is discarded.
Contradictions that emerge over time forces a deeper thinking in search for the essence of truth.
One other point. Truth is not a popularity contest. It exist independent of opinion. Less people in church does not mean that the Church is dying. It may in fact be getting stronger - closer to truth. When a Pope does something contrary to tradition the wise response is to reflect, to question more deeply, to voice one's thoughts but never separate in disunity.
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@Socrates The eulogy will not happen. Many people need to be told what to think, how to behave. And the more ritual, the better. As a species, we have a great tendency to fall for cults, Authoritarians, con men.
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Human beings are an inventive lot. We create gods to affirm our superiority among animals and to assure us of eternal life. Then we pay a bunch of guys, dressed up in funny clothes and answerable only to the unseen gods, to make rules about who is in the club and who isn’t.
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Conservative Catholic theologians clinging to archaic, man-made theology should hear the clock ticking on their shelf life. If the Church is going to survive and grow it must begin the process towards accepting female and married clergy. The sooner the better.
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The Church will survive until the end of time. It is wounded because the Church hierarchy forgot that they had to be just and protect the innocent. They thought they had to cover up and protect he Church which needs no protection. For those of you who are no longer Catholic, maybe you forgot that in order to have faith, it needs to be nurtured and cherished.
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@daytona4 - The "end of time" is nigh (at least for homo sapiens), in no small part due to the Catholic church's insistence on endless over-population (which perpetuates the tithing).
"In order to have faith", one must sacrifice Reason.
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