Hong Kong is the beating heart of free trade capitalism in Asia. The protestors are a coddled and entitled group that forgets HK is among the richest enclaves in the world thanks to a China closed to the outside world for decades and compelled to conduct foreign transactions through HK.
HK has more billionaires per capita than any other comparable municipality in the world. Rolls Royce is among the top-selling cars in the former crown colony. HK as a major global port turns entirely on adjacent Shenzen, the center of China's export trade. Without China, HK is an economic dead zone.
It's part of China and the residents are Chinese. It is China's economic growth has fueled every aspect of HK's immense prosperity that pays for world class free healthcare for all, infrastructure, education, judiciary and government. Merchants of riot noir fashion -- black clothing, ventilators, helmets and umbrellas are cackling over their good fortune.
At this point the protests have degenerated into anarchy and no discernible agenda appears to drive the now violent unrest besides performing for Western media and Sinophobes.
HK's autonomous governance isn't the result of some British idealism but was a calculated move by HK's reigning billionaire plutocrats to protect the goose that lays their golden eggs.
Credit HK police that only 1 protestor has been shot and wounded. Watch for the next tidal wave of US asylum seekers.
HK has a billionaire problem, not a China problem.
44
@Yuri Asian so they are rich and should give up self determination?
There is a simple, fundamental problem with these tactics - at the end, a violent contest is not one they can win, because the Beijing government can bring to bear violence far greater than any these protesters can.
The protesters think that Hong Kong is so valuable that in the end the authorities will back down, but they are mistaken in this belief. To the Beijing government, asserting unquestioned control and maintaining territorial integrity for the sake of nationalist sentiment is key to legitimacy. It may take a lot, but in the end, the CCP would burn down HK to save itself. This is the dangerous outcome that this hardcore of protesters is dangerously courting.
89
@McGloin
That is your guess, right? I can guess the USA has infiltrated the movement and is trying to using HK protester to tear China down.
Those assumptions are dangerous because there is no solid evidence to back them up. Yet they add to the mistrust between people who have different perspectives.
3
@McGloin
Actually you are wrong - read the very good article about China’s policy towards the Hong Kong protests in Foreign Affairs magazine - “How China sees the Hong Kong crisis” - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2019-09-30/how-china-sees-hong-kong-crisis
It states that their inaction so far is from a position of strength because President Xi feels that the majority of Hong Kong citizens will turn against the demonstrators. Also, that when someone had suggested to him that they should send the army in, he stopped them and said that that was completely the wrong policy as it would be a point of no return, and that Hong Kong has to deal with the protests themselves.
4
esp since shanghai n beijing have already surpassed hk in so many ways...
1
If this was happening in NYC, what do you think the NYPD would do? My guess is a number of rioters would have already been shot, and a very large number beaten. So far in Hong Kong, only one protester has been shot.
59
@Colok in this country, you can vote to get your voice heard. What can the hong kong people do？ Its unfair to say ‘if this happens here....’ when people in hong kong are losing their rights and freedom, something that may of us might take for granted here.
It's not surprising that they'd eventually want to fight back against police brutality. Consider Ice-T's 1992 song Cop Killer:
Cop Killer - better you than me.
Cop Killer - police brutality.
Eventually the repressed will fight back. If Lam continues to press the populace this way, I expect either Tienanmen Square 2.0 or the guillotine. Or maybe both.
The taxi was obstructed in midst of a large crowd in the street, then it sped up and rammed into the crowd, obviously on purpose. Among the injured, a woman was severely hurt, broken two feet, still in critical condition in hospital yesterday (10-07). No one would believe the taxi driver would get reasonable punishment by the system, accusations are conducted by police, which has lost its crediability over these months since the campaign began. One would argue that this kind of vengeance is morally unacceptable. But this kind of thing didn't happen in the early stage of the campaign. Social anger would just grow under the ignorance of people's demands by the government and unlimited excess brutal oppression of the police. Tragedies, right. Until the whole issue is resolved, Hong Kong protesters see this campaign protest would continue for years, at all costs.
26
@Alex Lee additional footage showed that his passenger door was opened and protestors were getting in before he swerved left. No one can be sure what happened but let’s try not to litigate this in the court of public opinion.
The anti mask law was necessary to prevent rioters from infiltrating the peaceful protestors. They give all protestors a bad name. This has to stop. The protestors have been unwilling to come to the table to negotiate in good faith.
Legco happened way before this. There have been bad actors from the beginning.
36
but the guy being punched in the photo is not the taxi driver, he is just a man brave enough to speak differently in front of the protesters in MK.
A lost of faith in the jurisdictory system should not translate to taking it to our own hands, it only makes it worse. When anger is taking over our minds, it's the time that our humanity is at it's most vulnerable. The cost of any protests should never include losing it.
23
And thus we see the mob mentality of us verses them at it's finest.
Unfortunately, I forsee that it's going to get worse.
The two sides simply cannot meet in the middle. On the face of it, the protestor demands are reasonable, except that they are the red lines that the CCP (let us be honest, the HK government has no say in this) cannot and will not move on lest the contagion spreads out to the mainland.
The protestors have also painted themselves into a corner. They know the inevitable results if they back down. Crackdowns, the stripping of further rights and liberties in the interests and "civil order" and the mass arrests of anybody and potentially everybody, to make a point.
The CCP may just decide to let Hong Kong wither on the vine, leaving the city poor, desperate and truly with nothing to lose and we all know what happens when people truly have nothing to lose.
This is just going to degenerate.
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
8
This is exactly what Beijing wants the protesters to be, a group of violent thugs without leadership. If Hong Kong protesters do not change their tactics of violence soon or later the protests will go nowhere. Actually I think Beijing will be pleased to see more protesters on the street, smashing anything or anyone getting in their way.
10
I follow the social media feed of protestors and anti-protestors in HK. All I can say is that they seem to be living in two different realities. From the protestors’ point of view, the police is brutal, the government is complicit, and this is their last stand. From the anti-protestors’ point of view, the protestors are spoilt, misguided or being used by foreign powers, and are destroying the city with their violence and destruction. The echo chamber of social media convinces each side of their moral high ground, and polarises them to adopt increasingly extreme positions. For any de-escalation to be possible, everyone needs to stop bathing themselves in this toxic brew.
30
The young protesters have been manipulated and directed by an international cyber-community of "idealists" like the Young Turks, Burning Man, and Antifa types on Instagram and all. They hold up cell phones on "flashlight" instead of candles at their New World Order bonding rituals. One way or another, in the end, they will be dragged off in the middle of the night to the mainland—unless the Communist Party in China has been suddenly infused with tolerance.
Perhaps China has something to gain by letting it slide and disrupting business for the West.
1
This is not to excuse violence by a number of protestors, but many people seem to ignore that members of Hong Kong’s Government (and Beijing) have openly sided with and endorsed Triads in order to counter protestors.
You know, Triads, the mafia, the same guys who run drugs, extort, deal with human smuggling, piracy, assault and murder amongst other things. The same guys whose daily modus operandi is to literally break the law. And yet few to no arrests, no independent enquiries in earlier police behavior. Tycoons stay silent while continuing to rip off ordinary people while getting generous tax treatment and access to Beijing. Carrie Lam and co continue to cower.
No wonder young people are angry. We have seen this before numerous times throughout history. It will not be the last time, I fear.
2
This endless violent demonstration remains me that when I was a high school student in Beiping (now Beijing) and how we were involved in a number of demonstrations against internal war (neizhan) between CCP and KMT. We were so naive and didn't ask who was behind those anti-KMT demonstrations. I remember there was co-ed, Miss Shen, student at Peking University and it was rumored that she was raped by a U.S. marine near a movie theater not too far from the Tiananmen area. We just kept shouting the anti-American slogans and never questioned why we were there to protest. Actually it was sensational anti-America drama staged by the pro-CCP students in Peking University. Dr. Hu Shih, the president of Peking tried to tell the truth but no one were listen to him Later in 1990s we discovered the co-ed married a famous Chinese cartoonist in Beijing. It was an incident fabricated by the CCP.
7
The protesters are rapidly losing the public sympathy they had gathered in the early days. Most Hong Kongers are fed up with the vandalism, mob justice, looting and inane violence. It has become Hong Kongers fighting against Hong Kongers now.
24
Mandarin speaking residents in HK are living in fear. The “pro-democracy” protesters, exemplified by Joshua Wong, embraced by Nancy Pelosi, are attacking anyone linked to the Mainland; by birth, by language, by loyalty. And politicians on both sides in the US are digging in, determined to incite a movement based on racial hatred and xenophobia. That’s why these people are waving the Star Bangled Banner, because they identify the US with nationalism and racial (white) superiority. All the talk about liberal ideals in the West is just hypocrisy. Deep down, they are all bigots.
29
It is very frustrating reading nyt's coverage for Hong Kong's events in the last few months. It has been decidedly one-sided and pro-protests, happily glossing over what the protesters have done. In this latest example, you use the phrase "vigilante justice" to imply it is at least understandable why they used violence, but there were many cases where the protesters beat people up for just expressing their opposing views, the better known example being the banker from mainland. I know many people in Hong Kong who do not express their anti-protests views because they don't want to get into troubles. Is this how democracy works? Oh and by the way, it is not just the recent few weeks, they have been doing it almost since day 1.
78
@Chishun Kwong
The mainland banker was taking close-up pictures of peoples’ faces and refused to stop. All of the violence I have seen or heard about here is for similar reasons. The man in the article who was beat up ran people over with his taxi. It’s not random attacks.
You are asking the protesters, if one must group them together, to be more reasonable. One might ask the same of the Chinese Communist Party. They have been looming over Hong Kong, promising to end the city as people here know it, almost since day 1.
4
The problem is that from the very start of the movement, the hardline view has been that this is the absolute last-stand, and thus, "lan chao" - the scorch earth mentality. In truth, Hong Kong and ordinary Hong Kongers have everything to lose when such an apocalyptic mentality and the ensuing violence take hold. Blaming everything on the government is not going to solve the problem. There seems no way that the government will back down in the face of such violence on the part of the demonstrators. Confrontation will only escalate. What Hong Kong needs now is a period of calm to cool things down. It is incumbent upon influential people like Joshua Wong, Edward Leung, Benny Tai, Martin Lee, etc to call for a temporary cessation of street demonstrations, not to capitulate but to give people a chance to recalibrate. For one, I believe that if the outcome of four months of protest is having forced a shift from neo-liberal social and economic policies to one that is more egalitarian, a victory has already been achieved. As of full democracy, take the long view and continue to fight with non-violent means.
18
I recall a protest organizer during Seattle WTO cautioning not to call vandalism violence which those in power push to discredit demonstrators. It’s just a piece of glass, or a facade or car.
The term violence should be used only when it’s against living things.
This is thoughtful and I agree.
Because the hard question now is when governments and fossil fuel companies are totally unresponsive what choices do the public have? HKers are confronting this right now for all of us.
2
@DEG
They beat a man who was arguing with them and when he tried to walk away, they beat him to the ground with metal rods. What do you call that?
They say they want freedom and democracy but they beat and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them. Freedom for whom?
By the by, the policeman who fired? One video from a different angle showed that his gun went off when the 18 year old who was shot hit his forearm with a metal rod - you can actually see the policeman’s sleeve jerk from the impact.
The policeman was running to save his colleague who was defenceless on the ground being beaten by five or six “protesters” with metal rods, a hammer, and a wrench, and who had been running away from them.
The press needs to stop excusing this unconscionable behaviour and violence.
Yes, violence.
What do you think a member of the police force in the US would do if his colleague was on the ground being attacked by a gang of five or six men with hammers and wrenches and metal rods? Get out his pepper spray?
This misinformation, bias and double standard in the press has to stop.
84
@Arthur Completely agree with you! There has been many cases of the rioters attacking people who disagree with them or take photos of their vandalism and destruction. Just yesterday, they attacked a JP Morgan banker who was hounded by a mob of people and when he yelled out that they are all Chinese people, he was attacked from behind!
26
@Arthur, US cops would have fired a few hundred rounds, killing a dozen or so, before any cop ever hit the ground. I just don't understand how you could think that was better.
But I'll give you points for a fine example of what-aboutism.
4
Slowly, targeting of police officers and their families will be seen as justified because the police committed violence against protestors. Homemade bombs may also become acceptable. Injuries of bystanders may be acceptable collateral damage in the larger fight against an authoritarian Govt. If one believes the cause is just, as is the fight for freedom and democracy, then everything can be justified.
17
@Leto
Sure, just ask any terrorist.
"If one believes" is the major problem here and has always been for humanity.
Terrorism, War, Genocide, Belief.
Truly frightening.
16
@Leto
Is driving a lorry (as the British says) through a pedestrian street crowd a justified response for “Christian killing Muslims”?
11
based on your arguement, we should consider the 911 incident not as terrorist attack but as a group of people fighting for their just cause. I do not think it is right give a group of violent protesters carte blanche just because they are agitating against an entity you disagreed.
9
How would this paper report on the Boston Tea Party? Masked vigilantes, destroying millions of pounds of property, belonging to an innocent and august corporation. Environmental pollution, caused by a small set of “radical” revolutionaries, in opposition to the lawful British crown.
5
Lets look at the protesters/rioters’ “Five Demands”:
1. Withdraw the extradition bill - Already done.
2. Retract the riot classification - This is against the rule of law because the riots are indeed riots as defined by law.
3. Amnesty for arrested protester - This is also against the rule of law because the judiciary cannot be independent if public pressure or political forces affect the outcome of justice.
4. Investigation of police misconduct - This could be reasonable once the riots ended, but until then the police must have the authority to enforce the law.
5. Universal suffrage to elect the CE - The Hong Kong government has no power to do so as it requires a change in the Basic Law constitution. Only the central government in Beijing can do so. But instead of convincing mainlanders to join them and pressure Beijing, HKers denigrated mainlanders and unified them against HK. So now there is no chance of Beijing giving in.
In conclusion, the claim that HK government is not responsive to the protesters is absurd. HK government did everything they reasonably could without undermining the rule of law. It is the protesters who backed themselves into a corner with impractical demands and are now lashing out with increasing violence. Even the NYT cannot whitewash their unconscionable behavior. Sadly, all of Hong Kong will suffer the consequences.
54
thank you for taking time to explain. my view from a non-aligned nation in ASEAN, the whole violent riot seems to have some outside interference as the party benefited from riots in HK is the pro-independence party in Taiwan and their current de-facto ally USA (itself is engaging in multiple front to block in China.)
4
The protesters are a bunch of spoiled brats with no agenda other than generating internet likes.
19
New York Times reporters, writers and editors: please make sure you are being very careful in your reporting and not falling victim to ploys by Chinese agents. Please look carefully at the photo you published on the top of this article. The man in the mask punching the shirtless older man is 1.) punching him in the neck and 2.) has a very muscled arm. Please ask yourselves: 1.) are students trained to punch people in the neck? Who gets that kind of training? 2.) Do students in Hong Kong have the kind of muscled arm that you see in this photo? There seems little doubt that some students want to retaliate. But are all of them students? Please investigate this and write about it in a future article.
7
@David
Truth is hurtful, isn't it?
18
So you are suggesting they are trained CIA agents?
14
Truth does not hurt. Only lies do. That is why we have to investigate carefully because Chinese communists are expert liars. You cannot make conclusions just based on a photo. Many so called vigilante actions were response to violence by the "victims". And there were many instances in which police protected violent perpetrators while arresting the victims simply because victims were protestors. Hong Kong people's are known to be civil and peaceful, why do they turned violent? Perhaps the NYT reporters need to investigate.
2
This is another apologist piece by NYT. The protesters are not resorting to vigilante justice to right the wrongs. They are venting and beating up people who are pro-Chinese, speaks Mandarin, or from the mainland. It is a secessionist riot, not a democracy protest.
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3031708/attack-jpmorgan-banker-hong-kong-sparks-outrage-mainland-china
39
When is the People's Liberation Army going to arrive and treat these Hong Kong people like they were black Africans in America?
I don't care anything about the people of Hong Kong.
Unlike the people of Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Memphis, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, San Juan and St. Louis they are not my fellow Americans. Nor are they armed and aided by my tax money.
3
Unfortunately, the protesters are aided by your tax dollars.
11
The readers who criticized the HK protesters becoming increasingly violent forgot how this country fought for its self-determination against the British during the American Revolution. There were more just some vandalism and punching. Was it not ‘justified’?! Anything is justified if you are about to be oppressed to live under authoritarian rules. I stand with Hong Kong.
6
From the very beginning protestors and western armchair generals have asserted the violent elements of the protest are carried out by police and mainland infiltrator/saboteurs to make the peaceful protests look bad. If such allegation is factual, how come the protestors never did and still refuse to criticize the violence? How come they never citizen’s arrest those infiltrators walking next to them?
Two of the five core demands to the government involve reclassifying riots as peaceful protests and release all arrested rioters. I think they are only trying to fool themselves and western backers because the people of Hong Kong that have to walk pass burnt subway stations and eat instant noodle for days know exactly how peaceful the protestors were. Not to mention the people that have to get “health checkups” because they didn’t step away from the protestors quick enough.
15
How do we know that the people committing violence are not more paid government stooges meant to discredit the protesters?
2
@Joel Gross
Please read this from the NYT
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/30/opinion/hong-kong-protests-police-violence.html
1. Because there are thousands of them and they are everywhere.
2. Because there are documented conversations on social media talking about committing violence.
3. Because some of them are caught and had their identities verified.
4. Because many of the rioters are students and teenagers but police/government agents are obviously adults.
12
There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part! You can't even passively take part! And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels ... upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!
Si liu indeed.
No more impunity.
2
There was an letter to the NYT https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/30/opinion/hong-kong-protests-police-violence.html
outlining the tactic of this series of events. It is to provoke the police to over react. The west and the HK media will then use that to condemn the police and extract sympathy and political action from the west. You, NYT are actually promoting violence by continuing to say that this is protest and not outright riot. The live round fired was when one officer was down and was being beaten by protesters with clubs and a hammer is clearly visible. The teen in question charged the officer who fired the shot. I believe you published the live video that showed the above scenerio. You then concluded by citing Humen Rights watch dogs that state that shots should only be fired after fair warning and only if the officer's life is in danger. While you did not exactly say that the firing was unjustified, you clearly conveyed that it was so.
When is a protest no longer a protest but a riot?
This all started at the second weekend of the initial protest when the protesters charged the police line and the police responded with clubs. This then escalated with one sided charge of police brutality. Given the level of destruction in HK and the lawlessness exhibited, should force be used?
What would have happened in the US had a similar level of "protester" violence been used?
19
HK is your US town with the clock ticking down to 2040 when your freedoms literally end. I hope that we would act like this, also, just as our forefathers did.
3
Vandals and violent thugs do not make sympathetic figures, even if the other side is thought to be worse. Their cause, even if initially good, becomes the cause of vandals and violent thugs.
8
@Steve M go to Lexington. Find out what happened there.
I thought the police was using violence rather than the protesters. I saw a photo of a young kid shot in the chest/eye- and funny how nyt got this news- all foreign reporters were locked in by the police-
1
The Cultural Revolution was based on the young overcoming the older and their supporters and their values. For those in their teens and twenties it was an ideal excuse to vent their adolescent aggressiveness on people perceived as old values. It was a humanitarian disaster, but it did lead to change--the present dictatorship in China devoted to order. This is beginning to echo that, despite the justice in the protester's cause. Wanton destruction and injury based on the righteousness of a cause, as in the Cultural Revolution, do not lead to stable political power. After exhaustion, new players emerge to bring back stability, no matter how. It is a tragedy the students see no other solution to China's increasing repression but their own Cultural Revolution. It is a tragedy the same fate awaits them.
1
If there's ever a line, when crossed turns protestors into mobs and rioters, it is beating up people on the streets.
18
The man was punched because he was hurting some protesters. Nowadays, no more police wil come out to protect those protesters, so they fight back to that man. NYT please post all the fact to the public so everyone can understand whole situation.
1
One man hurting dozens of protesters. He must be Ip Man LOL.
9
Ah, the fragility of society. How ordinary well behaved, polite video gamers would don on a mask to become a vigilante “freedom” fighter in the urban jungle of HK.
It’s a failure of society and the education system to have produced idealistic simple minded idiots such as these. Thinking, burning everything down will sprout the utopia of their dreams.
Mob violence will only end when the mob turned against itself. Just asked Robespierre. Probably he would have said of the guillotine: what a beautiful invention!
18
@Ken It's at least as big a failure of society and the education system to have produced the idealistic simple minded idiots who will blame everything on the protesters, without taking the time to look at the bigger picture. Thinking that giving the authoritarians everything they want will somehow make things better for the general public.
Try taking a picture of the rioters. You will get beat up. In fact, you can just be speaking Mandarin and you can get beat up for it.
Anyway with no leader to keep the fringes in line the movement is doomed for failure. Just a matter of when and if they take HK down with them.
38
Funny how this article goes through so many contortions to say "protesters" instead of "rioters". The pictures say it all.
69
@Tim
The difference might depend on whether the picture is a wide shot, or a narrow shot.
A protester is someone who expresses themselves in a public demonstration, using the methods of non-violent non-cooperation.
A rioter is someone who expresses themselves in a public demonstration, using violence against another person.
3
A minority among the Hong Kong protesters feel it is necessary to resort to violence. They would do well to read the biographies of Gandhi and Mandela. Both these men faced off against unjust regimes, armed with nothing more than an unshakable belief in the righteousness of their cause and an unwavering commitment to non violence. They both won. They did not succeed by defeating their opponents, but by convincing them.
People or movements have decided to resort to violence when faced with an unjust regime with vastly superior firepower, many times in human history. They almost always get crushed ruthlessly. We remember the rare occasions when the oppressed have won, but the odds are not good. Violence is not the answer when faced with an opponent with a disproportionately superior capability to inflict violence back on you. It is merely self defeating short sightedness.
10
@A Cynic you can't apply a tactic that was applied to different situations and different nations. If there was a protester like Gandhi China would be just fine with a starvation protest. Once dead the protest is over no sweat and nothing would come of it. Don't be critical of Hong Kong protesters their situation is existential with consequences that they are well aware of.
@Henry
How can the protesters in Hong Kong win this fight and achieve their goals?
They can't win by using superior force against the Chinese government. The govt has an infinitely larger capacity for violence if deemed necessary.
They can't win by creating chaos on the streets and rioting. That only increases the likelihood of a violent govt crackdown.
They can't win by gaining international sympathy and support. They already have that. It is irrelevant to the govt.
They can't win by persuading the communist govt of the righteousness of their demands. The communists see democracy as a direct threat to their rule.
The only way they can win is by winning over the public opinion of the Chinese people. The Hong Kong protests have the potential to become something much larger, the spark that sets off widespread protests in mainland China and brings down that dictatorship. For that, they need to stop attacking civilians and the police in the streets. They need to win over the Chinese people, not antagonize them.
Hong Kong is never going to be independent. So the only way democracy can be safe there is if Hong Kong is part of a democratic China.
8
The Hong Kong protests initially fascinated me; I followed daily reports. Once violence went far over the line, I stopped reading. There are factors continuing the violence which go beyond wanting freedom. At this point, criminality is one.
36
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/world/asia/hong-kong-protests-identity-china-edward-leung.html
"A group called Hong Kong Indigenous, in which Mr. Leung was a leading activist, began harassing mainland shoppers in what it called “retake” actions. Hong Kong’s colonial-era flag became a banner of resistance in what at times became an ugly xenophobic campaign against mainlanders, with some Hong Kongers dehumanizing them as “locusts.” "
And there you have it. The truth of what these protesters really are and what they are about. Hong Kong's answer to Trump supporters.
In the 80s and 90s, Hong Kong was the most prosperous Chinese city and served as China’s window to the outside world. Now it has lost that special status and its GDP has fallen behind neighboring Shenzhen, a former fish village and other major Chinese cities on the mainland. For the longest time Hong Kongers looked down on their mainland cousins as country bumpkins, but as their fortunes stagnated and the mainlanders became the new Beverly Hillbillies they became resentful. Like besieged Trump supporters they fall back on their identity as a source of superiority. For Hong Kongers it’s their British colonial identity. Make Hong Kong great again?
34
@Tim
Its is not very nice. Communist China's slow culture take-over through immigration of 130 Mainlanders per day is not very nice either. That immigration stream now accounts for 10% of Hong Kong's population, rising daily, and they are not assimilating to Kong Kong culture.
2
@Tim Why do you feel compelled to mention Trump supporters to make a point?
@Tim That's a very cynical view. The HKers I know are all in favour of more freedom/democracy - they wouldn't trade placeswith Shenzhen at all.
China, and all authoritarian regimes—the tighter you squeeze your grip, the more slips through your fingers.
4
One must be truly deficient in moral faculties to have to “debate” whether it is morally justified to beat up an old man and continue hitting him after he fell to the ground.
28
@Jason Or to claim that a single image has any validity when applied to people who were not in that image. Attempting to apply one (or three) thug's actions to all protesters is...not something that would be done by anyone who cares about facts or nuance.
2
Militant civil disobedience inevitably creates grey areas, but it seems it would be best to err on the side of caution. What I would like to see/learn more about, is what are the core demands of the protesters, other than the cancellation of the extradition order. Given Hong Kong's role as an international economic hub, and given concerns about China's future evolution, the events in Hong Kong are of international significance. The protesters deserve clear and widespread international support, including by human rights organizations. This is especially important since any corporation doing business in China must toe the Party line -- see the humiliating self-flagellation of the Houston Rockets [basketball team], over one tweet by a member of their organization.
1
China should offer a one way free plane ticket, about $12,000 allowance for 4 months living expenses, to fly to the U.S. city of their choice. Maybe, the U.K., would offer a similar invitation. It would be interesting to see how that turned out.
4
@tennvol30736
Too expensive and what’s the point? Who’d want them back? These people aren’t the crème de la crème of Hong Kong students/professionals and there is no downside to getting rid of rebellious elements in society.
Now they are going to find out they’ve been lied to and the actual sentence for rioting is a lot harsher than community service like they were told by organizers.
5
When hundreds of thousands are protesting peacefully, and a handful make the rest look bad by committing violence, it is usually a "False Flag Operation." Most likely the Chinese government or their allies are infiltrating the movement and consulting violence and encouraging violence.
Provocateurs are often used to undermine movements and distract from their message.
Even if it is actual protesters committing violence, they are a tiny minority, and the media should know better than to be distracted by them, but media can't help themselves. Violence sells ads.
For those involved in peaceful protests, anywhere, don't turn a blind eye to violence. Chase the violent from your movements. They are doing more damage than you can imagine.
Democracy and political violence are not compatible.
6
Violence to advance the cause of freedom undermines their cause.
Defensive violence can be forgiven, Offensive violence can not be forgotten.
19
Violent protesters have badly tarnished the image of this movement. I don't see a good ending to this effort.
If this violence continues and increases, China will be forced to step in. I'm very worried that the people of Hong Kong will lose the freedom and independence they've enjoyed and end up under tight military control of China.
8
What would these protesters be treated by our police force, if the situation happens in US? Will our police allow the protesters trashing any public buildings and seeing their comrades be threaten and beaten up? The youth in Hong Kong need to come to term with the reality, which is Chinese government will not yield to their core demands. The more violent and anti-China and Chinese, not just the communist party, protests will galvanize more Chinese people to support their government's stand on Hong Kong protesters. In the end, Hong Kong youth will probably not get what they want and will be even more disillusioned about politics, just like the young generation growing up after the June fourth in China.
14
@Jon No one from China seems to be rising up as they planned.
3
@Jackson Here's one that is happy about how he's risen up. And I've seen quite a lot happy ones. LOL.
The apparent escalation of violence in the Hong Kong protests shows an increased level of anger. There are a number of ways to look at what causes anger, but according to Power and Dalgleish (2016), the emotion of anger is generally caused by a: "Blocking or frustration of a role or goal through a perceived agent." (p. 105) Stated another way, the crowd is getting ticked off because their goals (whatever they may be) are being blocked, and they're lashing out at the blocking mechanism.
The perceived disinformation campaign alleges the: "...theory that internet commentators paid by the Chinese government could be pushing protesters to adopt extreme tactics..." If so, then the unrest would be a deliberate goal of the mainland Government. This, of course, is directly opposite of what Carrie Lam said last week, that: "As a responsible government, we have the duty to use all available means in order to stop the escalating violence, and restore calmness in society".
The only way that the Government can restore calmness is by taking decisive actions - not words - to defuse the increasing anger. Reducing the anger will reduce the violence. An escalation in emergency powers (like the ban on masks) will only aggravate the situation. They must take actions to remove the anger by removing the perceived blocking mechanisms. It's time for concessions, or all will be lost.
Cite:
Power, Mick and Tim Dalgleish. Cognition and Emotion. Psychology Press, 2016. ISBN: 978-1-84872-268-2
5
All this could have been avoided if the CCP looked to reasonable compromise in 2014 rather than crushing the peaceful protests during the Occupy Movement. The CCP so myopic.
3
Incidentally, there was an illegal element to these protests from the beginning, but your press (NYT etc) missed it because you wanted a different story.
At the end of the first march, a group illegally advanced on the Legislature. They were pushed back by police and they threw umbrellas and water bottles (and possibly bricks). Just imagine what would happen to a group that illegally extended a march in DC and advanced on Congress, using physical force.
These people have manufactured their grievances, fuelled by fake social media - we even have our own version of pizzagate - where it is claimed that two unidentified people have been killed by police - yet with no evidence(!).
Watch out. Similar events are happening all over the world - France, Iraq... who is next? Mr Trump seems to be planning something.
38
Any sympathy for the protesters in Hong Kong should evaporate after they have ramped up their violent tactics against the police and government supporters. It is abundantly clear that these violent demonstrations have been fanned by the support of nefarious agencies within the U.S. government in the hope of undermining the Chinese government. Ukraine all over again.
11
@Rodney Wu Mao going strong in the comments
1
It is interesting that "justice" in Hong Kong includes violence that resulted in bodily injuries and vandalism that crippled the public transportation. This level of double-standard deserve some serious applause for the sheer gut of not even pretending to have any journalistic integrity!
16
Thanks for giving us a full picture of the unrest in Hong Kong. This is a sad development. Even sadder is the sight of a bunch of reporters standing around doing nothing but snapped pictures while the poor man got beaten to a pulp.
16
I think the protest turn more violence because police shoot the protesters at now al least two students were shot with live bullets and the anti-mask law, and the government did not accept 5 demands if those incidents not happen and the government accept the 5 demand the protests will stop.
Btw Hong Kong protest needs you guy to stand with us. Understand what makes hong kong protest go more violent.
4
@Sam Lo Violence has no place in a civil society. I have been following the protests, which have turned into full on riots and mob rule.
The police if attacked SHOULD fire back in defense. The Hong Kong police force should be commended for its restraint, as if the same things happened here in the US, there would already be many deaths.
Freedom of expression should be for ALL, not just those who agree with you. To attack anyone who disagrees with you is WRONG and makes you no better than the evil you profess to be protesting.
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@Sam Lo
Justified violence? Is there such a thing as justified domestic violence? How about justified commercial violence? At what level of disagreement does it call for a brick to the head? How about a hammer, a ratchet?
6
Chapter Three: The Hegelian Dialectic.
Thesis.
Antithesis.
Synthesis.
The State initiates violence via the police and armed forces and covert operators in the crowd, and then uses the violence they have created as a pretext for further violence and repression.
This is State 101.
But of course it never happens here.
3
THIS is the kind of fight, for self determination and democracy, in which I would give my life. There are a million Hong Kongers who feel the same. They are right. They are David. Godspeed.
12
Violent acts are from fringe elements of the movement. And they are being radicalized. They might reasonably ask what a peaceful march of 2 million people gained? Governmental silence at the time. And the answer since would appear to be almost nothing...
The government has been so remarkably slow to address legitimate grievances and has been allowing the police to operate with impunity. The unwillingness to appoint independent oversight to evaluate police actions (or lack thereof) inside of MTR trains and stations, begins to drive people toward violence...
Meanwhile, it has also emerged that there are many plain clothes police engaging in and even encouraging acts of violence behind the scenes. The government is complicit in this crisis on many levels.
Hong Kongers trust in their police and leadership was gained across decades. Hong Kong was remarkably different from many other places in Asia. The deep reservoir of trust, which was earned, is now being steadily eroded through Beijing's decision making and influence and Carrie Lam's tone deaf leadership.
The power to govern comes from the consent of the governed. The people of Hong Kong are indicating their lack of consent in many ways.
4
A serious flaw in the article and one minor oversight.
Flaw: the escalation of violence is not (only) the result of the mask ban. These violent acts of si liu have occurred since at least July, when many (e.g. those who quarreled with them, drivers who tried to get through their street blockades, or mandarin speaking Chinese) were beaten by groups of protestors. Yuen Lang incident, which is inexcusably wrong in itself, was one result of these early use of violence by the protestors.
The reason that this article gets the narrative wrong is that the earlier acts of violence were conveniently downplayed or ignored in pro-protest outlets and mainstream media in order to portray a fake contrast between peaceful protestors and brutal Hong Kong police force, until the mask ban, which was supposed to address precisely the lack of accountability in those acts of violence.
A small thing to add: before the taxi driver whom the riotors beaten into unconscious crashed into the crowd the left front door of the vehicle was already wide open, as clearly shown in the videos. There was a possibility that some sort of interaction already happened before the car swerved. It's a possibility. But the pro-protest apologists already started calling the old men terrorists before investigating what actually happened.
Lastly, thank you NYT for doing a more balanced article on the protest.
45
It is remarkable that after all these many weeks of protest, no one has died. It says something about the restraint of police officers in spite of the violence and provocations of some protesters. Iraq's protests started recently and the body count is over one hundred already.
I hope Hong Kong is able to find workable solutions to its problems.
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@Osunwoman
At one point a third of Hong Kong was on the street protesting. If the protesters were violent, the police would have been able to do nothing against them.
This is a tiny fraction of the protesters, who probably work for China.
2
@Osunwoman Indeed, it is. That bullet narrowly missed the heart and spine of the 18-year-old student (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/world/asia/hong-kong-shooting-protests.html). In terms of restraint, I would refer you to the Times' video analysis of the shooting, which showed the police were in full riot gear and had non-lethal rounds available (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRdXjsGlh2s) and multiple other visual investigations about HK police use, or rather, misuse of force.
2
i can't agree more... also, few have wondered how the police in well known democratic countries, incl us, uk, france, n germany, would react to such riots if they were to unfold on their own soil... what has been the case historically in these countries? would the police in these democratic countries always raise a warning flag before tear gas is fired? what about gun violence by the police? in some of these democratic countries, innocent bystanders can be attacked n shot by the police for just having a different colored skin!
5
This happens in many protests, because protesters are unable to "declare victory" and go home to plan for another day.
As the HK protest gets increasingly violent, as many protests do, the sentiment of the general public may well demand stronger and tougher sanctions by the HK govt on their own.
19
Talk about lines that have been crossed. Just imagine if Occupy Wall Street had not only occupied a small private park near Wall Street, but had blocked entrances to the Stock Exchange, filled the streets with demonstrators, broke store front windows and entrances to banks. How long would such conduct have been tolerated?
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@Marvin Raps
Very few windows were broken by Occupy. If you watch the Breitbart video about Occupy Wall Street, you will see the same video of the same window being broken about thirty times, because that's all they had.
Occupy was a peaceful movement. It was the police beating us up, not the other way around.
I saw an old lady yanked out of her lawn chair and cuffed for knitting.
My friend has three pins in his spine because the police beat him up for betting in the street.
We were told to leave the street, then attacked on the sidewalk.
The First Amendment gives We the People The Right to peacefully assemble to ask the government for redress.
The government violated the First Amendment by violently attacking us.
1
@McGloin
He didn't say Occupy had done anything violent. He said “what if they had?” Would it have been tolerated in the US?
The answer is No.
8
@Arthur Occupy Wall Street was non violent - and Occupy Wall Street has been largely forgotten.
1
They are in the midst of an insurgency. Their violence is political and justifiable.
11
@Kristop Heller How can you justify punching and beating some random civilians who are having different opinions from the protesters? What is the purpose of violently attacking opposing civilians? Does it mean that if you don't like what another person is saying, it is totally fine and justifiable for you to beat them up???
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@Kristop Heller
Even if you claim it "justifiable", it is not wise. An insurgency is not something that can win here, anymore than the insurgents in Hama in Syria in 1982 could win.
3
@Kristop Heller So now democracy and freedom means open season on police and punching out anyone you disagree with?
5
Someone needs to look at who is paying the operatives now creating the violence. I'm betting it is not the Chinese.
18
@SWLibrarian Actually it could be. Foment enough violence and write yourself a ticket to intervene.
@SWLibrarian
Taiwanese newspapers printed months ago 600 veterans from the 2014 Sunflower Movement have been sent to Hong Kong to help.
Is shouldn’t come as a surprise the Sunflower Movement is political aligned with the rioters as both are pro-independence nativist movement with focus on anti-China, anti-globalization, preference for regional dialect and racial superiority.
Sunflower Movement was also the first time Taiwan’s legislature was occupied by rioters. Same playbook.
1
@SWLibrarian
Taiwanese newspapers printed months ago 600 veterans from the 2014 Sunflower Movement have been sent to Hong Kong to help.
Is shouldn’t come as a surprise the Sunflower Movement is political aligned with the rioters as both are pro-independence nativist movement with focus on anti-China, anti-globalization, preference for regional dialect and racial superiority.
Sunflower Movement was also the first time Taiwan’s legislature was occupied by rioters. Same playbook.
Antisocial behaviour occurs everywhere, and a breakdown in law and order is just an opportunity for these people to act out their impulses. They are no more “pro-democracy” as they are pro-violence. With Western countries cheering them on, they feel they have the moral high ground. Their behaviour is no better than the red guards during the cultural revolution, but if their claim is pro-communism rather than “pro-democracy”, would politicians such as Nancy Pelosi still be so eager to endorse their activities?
Can anyone name any violent revolution that directly leads to the birth of democracy? The French Revolution? The Russian Revolution? The Chinese revolutions of 1911 and 1949? The Islamic revolution? The Western governments and media who are cheerleaders of this movement, describing it as pro-democracy, are utter hypocrites.
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@Erica Chan The American revolution.
The French revolution set the stage for their eventual democracy. The ancien regime would never give up power, they decided to give up their lives instead.
1
@Erica Chan
"Can anyone name any violent revolution that directly leads to the birth of democracy?"
ummmm, the American Revolution?
@Erica Chan Umm, the American War of Independence was a revolution.
I fully sympathize with the feelings and goals of the protesters. But it’s hard to see how throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails is productive. I think what is most effective is numbers – the more people who protest, the more impact. Excessive violence will reduce the number of people who are protesting. A better tactic is to have masses of people blocking traffic, walking out of school and offices, and generally protesting peacefully. Frankly that also elicits the most international respect and sympathy.
10
@Dan
In guessing China knows that, so they are purposefully creating violence with provocateurs.
@McGloin Aha, if something goes right--> pro-HK protesters are great. If something goes wrong --> mainland China must be involved. Interesting logic
7
@McGloin
As I stated in another comment. How come the peaceful protestors don’t make citizen’s arrest of those “Chinese provocateurs” who walk next to them in the protests. They don’t even condemn the violence.
We know protestors make citizen’s arrest because they held and beat up a mainland tourists and a journalist at the airport. So how come we aren’t seeing citizen’s arrest of those fighting the police?
3
The people of HK need to stand together and keep protesting, but peacefully.
Otherwise they lose their moral high ground, and the moral high ground is the only real weapon they have against mainland China.
6
@Nick I fully support your point! But the Hk government ban peaceful matches in this few months.
2
@Nick But they have been until the police used force- brutal force- First it was just marching with an umbrella than the police started shooting- hence more violence to protect themselves otherwise you'd get dragged out and god knows where they're sending them- it's like another Tian'anmen disaster.
1
Chinese propaganda. It seems clear, from the carefully choreographed dramatic incidents with the press corps nearby, that the Chinese strategy is provocation and staged, false flag violence with undercover police posed as protestors. This justifies their official policy of a crackdown on protest, with escalating violence, mass detention of protestors, and a hard line against reasonable compromise. Why does WaPo play into this narrative? Do you also support China's "peaceful" pretextual seizure of South China Sea islands? Their "pacification" of Uighur "terrorists"?
18
@Fran Cisco A few common fallacious comebacks when it comes to anything negative about the protests, in no particular order:
1. conspiracy theory: the CCP staged it.
2. non sequitur: Look at Tiananmen, South China Sea, Taiwan, Uighur, NBA, so on and so on.
3. victim-blaming: the victims of the protestors are not innocent.
And, if you know anything about what actually happened in Hong Kong, the press corps are overwhelmingly pro-protest.
14
@Fran Cisco: no, not WaPo. And no, not false flag actions. I live here and you are inventing things.
5
@Fran Cisco
Is this comment what was distributed to activists to post in the media?
"Why does WaPo play into this narrative? "
Did you forget to change that to The NY Times?
7
I am fairly certain that if Americans were about to lose freedom of speech, press, academic and artistic freedom, an independent judiciary, miranda rights, rights to legal representation, habeas corpus, judicial oversight and so on to a political entity with much bigger muscles than our own then we too would be highly tolerant of young people marauding the streets vandalising stuff. We have all seen how the HK government and Beijing ignore peaceful protests even when millions go out in the streets. These anarchic protestors are the thin line between western style political liberalism and a repressive authoritarian state and they won't go down without a fight. It's a highly volatile situation and civil order is clearly breaking down. It is more important than ever for the world to stick up for HK and demand that the One country Two systems agreement be respected. If we won't do it for democracy ( looking at you NBA) then at least do it for the stability of the world's markets.
13
this is one country two systems playing out. local government in HK is allowed to deal with local problem within the power of the local government.
the federal government so far stood aloof and not directly involved.
6
@Friday
If the violent protests continue and China intervenes, the people of HK will lose the freedom and free speech that they currently enjoy. I'm afraid they are digging their own grave.
7
@Friday theoretically, I agree with what said, but could you give one example of how One Country Two Systems is not respected?
5
I'm concerned that escalating to violence will cause China to send in the military (no, I am not saying that would be justified), which will result in deaths.
Of course, if the non-violent protests continued, that also might result in China sending in the military and deaths.
Unfortunately, revolutions are rarely without casualties.
3
@Jenna
Send in the military is just red herring by people trying to portray China as evil and this is a fight for Hong Kong’s future. The police have no problem handling the riots and most Hong Konger are solidly behind the police even if they cannot say it out loud for fear of being targeted.
2
Acting appropriately? In a measure, and in response to the situations as they are described, yes. The actions of protestors, independent of the responses of those situations, are another matter.
The tactics of the protestors, particularly the vandalism, are questionable. Supporters of both sides reject vandalism.
Regarding the violence against an actress? Sure, taking pictures seems like a fair way to document wrong doing, and normally this is true. But when the protests are against an inversion of a population’s basic human rights, a camera is a weapon in that effort of suppression. It is hopefully a role the actress does not enter unwittingly.
The balance between a community and its members can be a fragile thing. It ought not be so. And this is where both sides must demand first of themselves in the continual explicit and implicit agreements within the overall social contract to determine if their actions are consistent with the good of the population of individuals and the community as the whole.
The general public as individuals really ought to be cautious about taking unchecked, unbalanced approaches, or lacking certainty about the identity and accountability of those they support. It is not a task to consider too lightly. That task is a benefit to all when it is taken on seriously and performed acceptably.
Wish both sides the best of good fortunes during the difficulties they must manage as they move forward into better times.
4
I think a total non-violent approach on the part of protesters would in the eyes of the world make the crackdown by the Hong Kong or China governments even harder to justify. However, part of the problem is that there is no real leader of the Hong Kong protests, which makes having a united stand and strategy difficult.
When India was fighting for independence, Gandhi was so adamant about non-violence that he carried out hunger strikes over acts of violence by his supporters, and threatened to fast till his death if protests didn't remain peaceful.
There was undoubtedly as much anger bubbling under the surface towards Great Britain in the days of Gandhi as there is towards China today in Hong Kong. But Gandhi was able to reign in and channel that anger in a peaceful way. Currently, there is no face to the Hong Kong protests that can do that.
14
@JHM The reason why there is no leader is that it is the only way the protests can remain powerful and connected. During the umbrella movement, the mainland moved to arrest and seize notable leaders which essentially threw the movement into disorganization and ended it.
7
@JHM it is a mistake to compare India's independence movement to Honk Kong's current situation. Hong Kong is facing an existential threat.
7
The hardened approach of the police in the first place was the result of the Mongkok riots in 2014. The police was attacked mercilessly at the time, because they were too restrained. They were also criticised by the public at the time as being too timid. It started when public health officers were attacked whilst trying to remove illegal street food hawkers, and the police failed to protect them. It was believed that if the police action was more forceful, the rioting could have been prevented. So they did not take any chances this time.
9
This is a refreshing writing after all the reporting that the demonstrators are by and large "peaceful".
113
@McGloin
It is interesting how you make justification for the violence by spreading the Conspiracy theory.
2
@McGloin
No they are NOT communist plants.
I have friends and relatives in Hong Kong, and they invariably condemn what is happening.
My cousin also says that the rioters when wearing masks seem to do bestial things but when they are caught and the mask removed, they become different people and beg for mercy. This is cowardice - the masks give them anonymity so they feel they can carry out acts of violence with impunity. This is why the authorities are trying to ban them now. And when they are in a group, they beat and intimidate anyone who tries to reason with them. This is cowardice.
Why do they need masks? If there are a hundred thousand people demonstrating without masks, do you think the authorities could arrest them all? No, they are now being worn so rioters can commit violent acts with anonymity.
Stop supporting such acts, and stop accusing anyone who disagrees with them on the ground as communist stooges and anyone who makes a comment that disagrees with you as five-centers - it is insulting and ridiculous.
16
@Steve
It took a certain newspaper of record 4 years to admit the Free Syrian Army is a mix of ISIS, Al Qaeda and other extremists groups and there is nothing democratic about them. 4 months for Hong Kong protest of a big important probably because there are so many cameras filming the violence it is hard to hide for longer.
7
The wave of protesters making way for an ambulance was an amazing inspiration for the world, a compelling weapon in the battle. Violence, unless for self defense, will backfire. It gives their more powerful and more violent enemy a leg up. When the Trump supporters were attacked in Berkeley, I was convinced it was GOP operatives trying to make the young Republicans look sympathetic.
4
These are obviously not peaceful demonstrators. The Hong Kong government has neglected its responsibility to protect law and order and should let China restore peace in the city.
47
Would you support the kgb to keep order in russia? China and it's lackeys in the hong kong government have got to go, by any means necessary. A return to law and order is the end of hong kong.
1
@Admiral
How convenient. Get a few people to attack the police, then the full might of the Chinese military should be let lose in Hong Kong?
@Admiral
Read the article in Foreign Affairs magazine:
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2019-09-30/how-china-sees-hong-kong-crisis
China is doing the right thing by keeping out, and all the comments here surmising that the Chinese government are fomenting unrest in Hong Kong so they have an excuse to go in is a manifestation of a form of racism that has become all too easy. Rather, look at what Freedom House and Endowment for Democracy and other right wing groups from the US are doing. It is the same playbook as the one they used for the “Color Revolutions” and the “Arab Spring”. And look what all that meddling has achieved? Endless civil war in Libya, Iraq, and Syria, all in the name of “freedom and democracy”.
4
Hongkongians have an enormous reverence for the rule of law. If they feel forced to take matters into their own hands, it is a symptom of how greatly they feel the establishment has failed them.
48
@Sid Chu ,
Hong Kong seems to believe it represents the entire nation, but without support from the mainland, the effort will not be sustainable. Paid agitators who foment violence and property damage will not bring about a massive revolution. The mainland government will dismantle HK to contain the threat. It might be wise to settle for a partial victory by negotiations.
35
Does that mean violence is acceptable?
12
I don’t know where you get the idea about law and order. Most tycoons here made their fortunes initially by graft, insider trading etc. Corruption is under control only because of the ICAC. Violent crime is low due to effective policing. HK people are not any less inclined to commit a crime than anybody else. The demonstrations just presented them with an opening.
18