This essay inadvertently contradicts Douthat's column from earlier this week ("Can the Right Escape Racism?") in demonstrating that religious conservatives in fact harbor deeply suppressed racist ideas about those with whom they are at doctrinal odds.
Differences within a divided religion tend to fall along racial lines. Hence, the predominately white, conservative wing of European/American Catholicism (which rejects the anti-capitalist underpinnings of liberation theology) versus the mostly Hispanic and progressive Latin American wing (which embraces liberation theology's focus on the poor and oppressed).
The paranoia over next month's Amazon Synod (https://onepeterfive.com/amazon-synod-working-document-released-today-and-it-confirms-theres-trouble-on-the-horizon/) is hardly intellectual. The perceived threats of married priests, "inculturation" of the sacraments, and inter-religious engagement reveal the deep suspicion with which Catholics in the Northern Hemisphere (where depictions of Jesus and Mary are typically fair-skinned) regard their cohort in the Southern Hemisphere (where images of Christ tend to reflect local skin color and ethnicity).
Northern Catholics (and most religious conservatives in the U.S., regardless of denomination) feel threatened not by pantheism and syncretism so much as the fact "their" religion is being challenged by the ideas of people of color.
43
Capitalism destroyed Notre Dame.
The security of Notre Dame was given to a private company who put a guy alone in front of the security dash board and video screens who was on the job since 3 days. Alone.
Then at the end of his 3rd day on the job he was told that he could not be replaces after his 7 hour shift because the other employee had defected ( probably because he was too much paid...)
So the guy that was only 3 days on the job, alone , stayed on the second shift and that is when an alarm went off saying : " Fire ! ".
But he guy that was there only since 3 days and did not really knew the job because he was probably badly trained, sent a vigile look for the fire in the wrong building : in the sacristy ,outside of Notre Dame, on the side. Not the same roof.
The vigile went to that roof and saw nothing.
There is the schism.
Notre Dame has survived with its original carpentry : "The Forest " for 1000 years ,safe . Because there was a community watching after her.
In 2019 Notre Dame burnt with the forest in ashes to the ground because of the capitalist ideology of profit and disdain for anything human or cultural.
That is the real schism in the Church and the so called conservateurs who pretend that they want to protect the values of the Christianity are the ones who destroy every level of human spirit and culture by their greed and support for the capitalist ideology.
That " Forest " is of course also a metaphor for the ecology in danger because of capitalism .
21
The problem with conservative views like Ross' is that when you are focused on all the supposed glory of the past, you aren't building anything beautiful for the future.
54
If you read Pope Francises letter to the People of God attentively (dated august 28th 2018 ) you might see that he has already seen through what you were writing about and he seems to have known it for a long time. He is only taking the Church to where it aught to be. That is out of The Culture of Clericalism. It is not a matter of only what medias are talking about.
8
Conservatives whether is in politics or in religion are hypocrite.
If the Pope was ultra conservative, conservatives would be reminding everyone of the "Papal infallibility".
16
It saddens me to read the hateful comments about Christianity and the Catholic Church in particular throughout this New York Times comment board section. I do not recognize the Catholic Church of my birth and in which I remain. Would they dare print similar comments about the Jewish and Muslim faiths. Of course they would never do such a thing. There would be an outrage.
The Catholic Church is the largest Christian denomination in the world with 1.3 billion members and growing worldwide. They do more to help the needy and those in dire straits than any other organization on earth. They are the first to enter a country in times of disaster regardless of their religion. They have helped millions upon millions throughout the world while expecting nothing in return. The priests and nuns sacrifice their lives for the poor and destitute and receive little in the way of recognition. They expect none and do it for the love of God. If the Catholic Church was not in existence, many people would go without the aid and assistance that the Church offers.
The Church as made mistakes in the past just like every other religion has done but they have performed more good works than most. It breaks my heart to read such vile and mean spirited remarks about a faith that has done more good and continues to do so for so many. If you are ever in need regardless of race or religion, they will be there for you. How many organizations can make that claim?
42
The Catholic Church faces a great crisis, but it isn’t the squabbling between liberal and conservative leaders buried in the church bureaucracy. The crisis is how millions of Church members have given up on the ability of the church to make long-overdue changes and simply continue to leave the Church.
Of course, a big start in reversing this erosion would be for the Church to at long last move decisively beyond the sexual abuse crisis. And to help convince people that the Church is serious about change it would be essential to make the related change of opening the door to female and married clergy. One more badly-needed action would be to recognize that in his (her?) wisdom and love God made some of us as gay, and there is nothing the matter with that.
But maybe the most important action is to escape the Church’s obsession with cult-like issues and return our focus to spreading the simple message of the Gospel, to love one another and minister to the poor and the outcasts.
We can’t afford to simply hope that the next pope or maybe the one after that will be friendly to these desperately-needed changes; by then there will hardly be any Church members left. It would be great if Church members would rise up now and start demanding significant change. But I fear that instead people will just continue to leave.
Christianity is the most powerful force in human history, and it will survive. It’s not certain if the Catholic Church will also.
23
The majority of Catholics align with Pope Francis' views, Christ-like values and leadership he demonstrates daily.
The Conservatives have kept Benedict at the Vatican, block any resolution to the sexual abuse scandal, and undermine Pope Francis at every turn; including Benedict releasing statements refuting Pope Francis' statements at every turn. Benedict every went as far to help hide Cardinal Law at the Vatican for years to avoid his prosecution in Boston.
Time for Benedict to go home. He is no longer the Pope. If he and his conservative German allies in the Vatican disagree with a 21st century, benevolent church (free of abuse and corruption), led by Pope Francis, then let them break off and form a German Catholic church. They can be as corrupt and political and God-less as like and align with Evangelicals and their corrupt political agenda that has nothing to do with God, faith, prayer, church and living Christ-like values, such as love of God and love of others, peace, faithfulness, kindness, compassion, joy, goodness, forgiveness, etc.
An overwhelming majority of Catholics will stay with Pope Francis and rebuild the church with these values.
23
In my limited experience, I would say the American Roman Catholic Church, to which I belong, is more crumbling than splitting. The days of PPO Catholicism (that's Pay, Pray, and Obey) have surely peaked. I'm hearing much more reliance on following Jesus' requirements to care for each other than to carefully follow---blindly follow---the directives of their parish priest. Where this leads, no one knows, but it does have the smell of a second Reformation. I would say: beware of priests with tack hammers.
18
It is so difficult to read articles such as this. It seems as though matters of faith and also church law, that are critical to the running of the church and the acceptance of its doctrines, fail to allow for the loosening of humans' approach to current life style and mores. This "loosening" is an ongoing feature of "today" and the general direction in which humanity is moving.
If the church is unable to allow growth and change among its members then the lack of required and necessary flexibility deserves to cause schism. But schism is not necessary. Adjustment and acknowledgement of human drift in current times is.
Logic decrees that married priests would and will have a very positive effect on the problems of abuse. No one's God wants this recurring abuse to continue and the married priest would be a positive step toward eliminating it. It shouldn't be a schism producing adjustment to church law.
Does this not all boil down to this pointed reminder to "get with the times?"
8
@Steve I'm a pediatrician and I disagree completely with your comment regarding married priests having a positive effect on the problem of sexual abuse. Our nation desperately wants to believe that the sexual abuse "monster" is somewhere "out there": priests, paroled sex offenders, the Michael Jacksons of this world. But your "logic" runs afoul of the data.
In my 40 years as a pediatrician, I saw sexual abuse monthly, if not weekly. NOT ONCE was the abuser a priest or sex offender. The vast majority of those who sexually abuse children are their fathers, mothers' boyfriends, male siblings and relatives. The sexual abuse monster is in our homes, in the mirror not "out there" -- and marriage will most certainly NOT lessen the problem one bit.
29
Mr. Douthat,
I hold you responsible for the alarmist title of this article, to which I had already formed a strong opinion before reading.
I am glad I read it. I trust your knowledge of both sides of this dispute, but from my limited reading on the subject, the two sides are not equally prepared for a break with the Church.
The conservatives have been bold, and very cruel in their unjustified and reactionary treatment of the Pope, who has taken important steps toward needed change in our Church.
If there is a schism, I believe it will be squarely on the tongues and keyboards of those conservatives.
12
Raised in a catholic family in the 40s and 50s, I trusted the clerical propaganda-----that the priests were holier, thus closer to God therefore we had to go through them to get to God. We people in the pews were not on the same level as the priests. The priests were not the servants of the people, but rather the nobility--
"Spotlight" and the revelations be fore and after shook my world. How could anyone who believed in God do what some of these priests had done. To me it was clear that the institutional church was corrupt to its core. I therefore divorced the Church, but not the faith. I still go to Church on Sunday and try to live a "'biblical" life. I donate to the parish where I go to Mass, because I benefit from the sacraments, and from the Christian community and parish life.
When the institutional Church makes systemic reforms, I might reconsider. In the mean time, I think the answer to the problem is to "Abolish the Priesthood"
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely
18
Gay men and lesbians. There. Somebody said the words. With all the dancing around them, around the subject of their dignity and equality, Mr. Douthat is doing, there was some small risk that readers would leave them under the rug where they have been swept. I personally don't think any Catholic schism would be the fault of gays and lesbians, or gay and lesbian Catholics, but I know eminently well that plenty of Catholics WOULD blame them, so let's get it out there, without the sign language.
15
For me the problem presented the Catholic Church by a schism is simply a power struggle that potentially could weaken the hold of the Church. A concern, not for the promulgation of the faith, but for who will be in charge and with how much undivided authority.
A concern naturally for those in power and those who’d like to be, but a worldly concern, not a truly religious one.
6
There is nothing that the Catholic church has done in the past 46 years that makes me second guess my walking away from it.
25
The needed schism is one that is between those that realize that Catholic Church doctrine is harmful, stifling, and based on a collection of out of date pte-science books.
8
The more intellectual media, like NYT et al., thrive on upper level schismism to get attention and sell papers. There is a spectrum of cultural and even international relations issues which only exist because of mass media and these issues' entertainment value.
That said, let us be clear, the danger of our current Chief Executive is very real (and it also rivets attention, increasing advertising value.)
3
My best childhood friend's mom was divorced from her abusive, alcoholic stumblebum of a husband; she remarried, and her new husband adopted my buddy and fathered and raised his two sisters. Mrs. C's mom told me she was banned from the communion rail because she remarried. It was crushing to her, but she had rebuilt a life, saved a child (now a productive adult) and made a family.
I guess Ross feels a kind of comfort in knowing that his Church will continue this sort of behavior in the name of "unchanging doctrine" and the seemingly unambiguous words of Jesus (who may well have been pronouncing his displeasure with male prerogatives in respect to divorce).
I find no comfort whatever in contemplating the sorrow and suffering that the Church will continue to perpetrate upon fallible humans trying their best against the odds to live decent lives and provide a safe, suitable environment for their kids.
38
Blah, blah, blah, Ross.
You seem like a smart fellow. But you are so besides the point.
If only you had gone to a Catholic school in the sixties you might have realized long ago that the institution is rotting from the inside out. This is not a new observation. But I guess you have to have lived it in some way, in order to feel it, before you can see it.
Spotlight was only the latest in a lamentable centuries long line of stories chronicling the corruption. See The Decameron, Martin Luther's indictments in his Theses, The Dubliners.
The comfortable scholarly types, I dare say like yourself, debate schisms while children suffer. World without end. Amen.
32
A schism on the religious dust heap is just two piles of dust instead of one. Superstition's grip on humanity is ending none too soon.
16
16% of the world and 20% of the United States care about Catholicism and I'm guessing that the number is even smaller with New York Times readers.
4
@ted--16 percent of the world is 1.2 billion souls.
11
Mr. Douthat--who poisoned the well--now appears as the water inspector.
19
As an ex-Catholic, it can break into a hundred pieces for all I care.
25
“Sedevacantism”? Really? This outfit is ultimately doomed to self-inflicted irrelevance.
12
I don’t care about Catholic schisms, but I would like to see the Catholics end, for good, the sexual abuse and financial corruption by their clergy. It would be merciful for their members if they changed their minds about birth control being sinful and divorce being a hindrance to receiving the sacraments.
19
Frankly,
I don't understand why the NYTimes continues to run you articles about the inner and outer workings of the Catholic Church. The belong on a religion page, not on the editorial.
Those of us who are not Roman Catholic really don't care.
Roy Hammer, Cummaquid, Ma.
11
@Roy Hammer
You cared enough to read and comment.
15
The only schism in the Catholic Church right now is the belief that priests will somehow magically stop sexually abusing children after decades of everyone looking the other way.
19
No, I think the US Catholic Church should merge with Liberty University. Very similar outlook. All about the money. Abortion crazy. All believers in Republican Jesus (blessed are the rich, for they will inherit everything!)
Now, tell me, how many angels are there on the head of that pin?
22
@Mike, amazing how the single issue of women having full agency and rights over their own bodies and lives has finally united two cults that formerly battled over which was the, ahem, "True Faith".
17
Does any of this matter to anyone not Catholic? Really, who cares if priests can get married or not?
6
As an agnostic, I wonder at what seems like religious pedantry or a pandemic of obsessive compulsive disorder; where is God in this world?
6
How is this schism going to work? There’s only one pope at a time. I guess the Pope Pius society could double in size.
1
If a schism led to no longer pouring new wine into old wine skins then I say bring it on.
Institutions are human creations. They calcify; they harden; they become thick, unbending stretches of hide.
Religious beliefs need to be simple. Religious institutions need to be nimble and humble. When the beliefs are overly complicated (especially absurd and arrogant beliefs about human psychology), are based just on tradition without a solid basis, and set the institution as somehow superior to the individuals who compose the institution (just like businesses, institutions are not persons), then any good that arises is in spite of the bad.
Decades if not centuries of priestly rape of boys and girls are proof that the institution is organized to keep evil in play, going good as a side line.
A schism might be a good cleaning. Let the people who actually believe that children are chattle for priestly pleasures keep their decaying ancient wine skin. Free the people who refuse to be mental slaves to mental religious sadists.
10
Slow change or no change with top down secretive and ceremonious hierarchy of MEN!
Roman Catholic
Latter Day Saints - Utah based
Jehovah Witnesses - NY based
Seventh Day Adventist
Baptist fundamentalists - Billy Graham and Falwell et al trumps crew of Bible thumpers.
And add on the online ability to get a “ ministerial degree” and start an independent church.
Yup
Religion may be a salve in small doses at your local church but in a global world those at the top are controlling your thoughts and taking your money.
Obvious if you visit their headquarters and churches and homes.
We all enjoy fairytales no matter our age. And these controlling forces have used it well.
10
@nursejacki
Right on Sister! From another Nurse.
3
Honestly. Popes are so 15th century.
9
Amazing. God the all-mighty, the creator of everything, all powerfull. But listen to Ross Douthat, you feel God is just a political party (which of course it is...)
13
Ross, please research the history of Ursla de Jesus and other slaves and freedwomen like her. Awhile new world will emerge for you to think on and consider.
1
when the catholic church divests itself of the vast wealth of the vatican and its art and the real estate and other hidden wealth....and uses it to take care of its children, molested and unmolested, the children of priests, turns the churches into homeless shelters and orphanages for unwed mothers...and hospitals....and unwanted children ....
No other church has a doctrine of poverty and more hidden wealth..and hypocrisy
Then I will give Ross the five seconds he is due as a conservative and catholic!
Vietnam Vet
15
Pope Benedict thought that there would be a schism, and that Roman Catholic Church would become smaller but more devout.
Basically, we need a reversal of Vatican II.
And memo to the RCC: No more Marxist, Jesuit popes.
The RCC has mishandled the pedophile priests scandals for decades, and now has a cash cow with the illegal immigration grifting game. Read Michelle Malkin’s latest book. The RCC and their minions make millions of dollars off of illegal immigration into America.
This needs to end.
4
I can only chuckle at a 39 year old's opinions on the conditions of the world. Ross there is much for you to learn young man.
8
The real question is why should the Catholic church continue to exist? After all, the Neanderthals gradually died out for being unable to evolve. Evolution of all types is relentless.
11
The sooner the Roman church falls apart, the better.
10
I am sure that this is interesting to a lot of people. I am an atheist. Evidently there are more atheists in the United States than there are Catholics. I cannot understand why this needs to be an op-ed section of the New York Times. Certainly, it’s important. It should be run in the religious part of the times where the people who were interested can read it. We have a lot of important things to discuss. Our government is in crisis. Our international relations are in tatters. Whether or not the French Catholics like with the American Catholics are doing doesn’t seem like it should have an important part in the discussions of the New York Times.
9
For those of us who are not anxious about living outside of the doctrinal webs and hierarchies imposed by institutions like the Catholic Church, it's difficult to take any of this seriously.
8
Forget schism and other nonsense. Allow married people to serve as clergy and do away with the inhumane celibacy rules that have led to the catastrophe we are living today.
13
I was raised Catholic but when I was a young boy my dad introduced me to Joseph Campbell and the "Power of Myth" and I've been studying Campbell and comparative mythology ever since. And that is what Christianity is ... a myth. One that is on the decline.
13
Converts to Catholicism, like Mr. Douthat, tend to exhibit excitable apologistics, fretting about "schism" while overlooking the fact that fully a third of American adults who were raised Catholic no longer identify as being Catholic, and for obvious reasons. That isn't schism, it's renunciation.
35
Ross, we'll belong to the same Body in this life and beyond.
4
There are two types of Catholics, those who don't mind that the Pope runs an international ring of pedophiles and those Catholics who don't attend church because they recognize that cancer in the church. Discussions of doctrinal differences just obscure what the real issue is. The all male celibate priesthood is a liability which the conservatives refuse to admit even in the face of a huge priest shortage. They attack the Pope when he is trying to retain members by offering alternatives to unmarried priests. Those conservatives who attack him don't have the church's best interests at heart. It is as if they are protecting their ring of pedophiles at the expense of the future of the church. They can keep it up, but they are seeing the last generation of men who are willing to be priests. As they die off, there will be no priests to initiate the future members of the church. Perhaps they will have one more Pope before the RC church disappears. Jesus would be ashamed to be associated with what it has become.
9
For those eager to bend and pervert church teachings to today’s morals so that we can all feel better about our sinful ways, remember that in the church’s eyes, abortion is still murder, sex is for procreation with your spouse, what God has joined together let no man put asunder, etc. If you don’t like the rules, go should probably go somewhere else, or perhaps take a humility pill and try harder to be like Christ, and be glad of God’s infinite mercy and forgiveness for our sins. You don’t tear down a building just because you don’t like the current custodians. Go look in the mirror and ask yourself how you’ve done so far. Put your efforts into striving to be better and stop monkeying with doctrine you find unfashionable. I hope the church continues to transcend time and place. Go watch The Young Pope online.
3
I wish the nuns would peel off and form their own catholic church. They could run their own 'Catholic' schools, say their own Mass etc. Parents would love it if the school and it's church were both female operations.
9
"The Slow Road to Catholic Schism
Even Pope Francis is talking about schism. But a real one is still some distance off."
All of discussions, like this one, are so tiresome.
Jesus gave us two (2) Commandments:
* Love God with your whole self;
* Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
The discussion should be all about why those who claim to be "Christians" do not fully embrace those two Commandments. And this discussion should include the clergy of Catholic and non-Catholic denominations.
So many people worship money before they worship God. So many people pick and chose who their neighbors are when Jesus did not limit who, what color, what nationality nor any other factor in describing our neighbors.
Every human being is a "Child of God" so why don't we act like it? Our DNA says we are all 99.9% alike, so why don't we act like we are all "brothers and sisters" and neighbors to each other?
11
Ross, nobody cares about a Catholic schism! Join the 21st century. And that comes from someone who very probably grew up more Catholic than you!
I live in a Catholic town and I don't even know anyone who goes to church more than on Easter and Christmas.
Catholics are generally fine, whether liberal or conservative...well, except for the anti-abortion thing.
Let's put our concern where it should be. With the intolerant, racist, white Southern Evangelicals. Now they're a problem!
14
Thoughtful, embarrassed, disgusted former believers are leaving in droves. This church, and many others, is looking for recruits among the uneducated and poverty-stricken. I'd have to say that the Catholic Church has probably killed more people than any other religion, or any war in history. Time for it to die. It won't fall apart during my life, but not too far in the future, thank goodness. Good riddance.
15
I have one question I'd like to ask Mr. Douthat. As I understand you for the Catholic Church to accept homosexual sex would be a betrayal of a core doctrine.
So the Catholic Church can never accept that homosexual behavior can be moral.
Look into the future, maybe not that far, to a time when that will strike a large majority of Americans (or Germans...) as utterly wrong and immoral. Won't the Catholic Church become utterly marginalized, slowly fading away into a small sect?
7
There certaiinly is no "s" happening in the Church. Firstly, I think the underlying reason is that there is no gravitas among the cardinals of the world . We need for intellectuals, not from the left like Boff, Cardenal et al . As a Catholic I think that the Germans do not offer that gravitas, nor the intellectual weight needed. I urge clergy and laymen to focus more on helping families with education and health issues. More activism by its layity and more involvement of seminarians with females. More prayer from us for vocations of young men and women and more work to educate clergy and layity on their role in a church of all, much more closer to family´s needs today. Lead by good role modeling, value driven life and make it atrractive to become clergy in a world that praises a very isolated persona amidst a mare magnum of social media. IRONIC to say the least.
1
The "Episcopalian evolution" began with Jesus, or at least one of his more humane interpreters: "Humans were not made for the sabbath, but the sabbath for humans." Rules are for the benefit of people, and when it becomes clear that that is no longer the case (or never was, but we just didn't see it), then the rules are to be broken, suspended, or even overturned. I must confess that this seems so obvious to me that I can't conceive the contrary.
3
My sainted uncle, a Catholic priest for 60 years, asked me once where I thought the Church was heading. Since I have not been a Catholic for 50 years he knew he could get an honest opinion.
I said I thought the church was going to implode from its own top heavy weight and might find its way back to the people in the pews, instead of the bishops in their palaces.
He agreed, thinking the early Church best represented Jesus' teachings.
He asked me about Episcopal priests, already married, being welcomed into the Catholic ministry. I said it seemed unfair and he agreed.
The point: My uncle, a priest, and myself, a yogi, meet in loving embrace around the message of love, that is the ONLY message of Jesus.
The rest of the Church seems a bit too much like a gilded sepulchre.
14
First, full disclosure: I am an Episcopalian, and the undoubtedly influences my views on this subject. But it seems to me that institutional unity can itself become a kind of golden calf. Sometimes, schism may be necessary.
11
No one is chained to the Catholic Church. We all have free will; and if Catholics are not happy with the faith, they are free to leave. Many of us still love our faith and practice it with zeal. As some have done or speak about doing, they can join the Episcopal Church which has been referred to as Catholic light. It must be noted, that their ranks are shrinking faster than those of the Catholic Church. I was in St. Patrick's Cathedral recently and it was very well attended. I happened to walk by a well known Episcopal Church nearby and it was sparsely attended. I guess the Catholic Church still holds appeal to many people.
The Catholic Church Is still vibrant and will not change Church teachings to gain brownie points or members. It does not have to. People are still entering the Church and like what it has to offer. The main component that many find imperative is the body and blood of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist which is offered daily to those who seek it. This is the center of our faith. There is also the rosary, novenas and devotional prayers offered regularly to those who want them.
The Catholic Church will never approve of abortion or gay marriage. Even Pope Francis who is progressive has spoken out against these practices. Many Catholics are not opposed to married priests and even I who is conservative am not against priests marrying. The Church will never change the serious dogma to win popularity. They do not have to. People still attend.
4
@KMW
A schism on the religious dust heap is just two piles of dust instead of one. Superstition's grip on humanity is ending none too soon.
8
The Catholic Church is not safe for children.
13
@KMW. As a gay man, it remains utterly irrelevant to me that the Catholic Church will never approve of gay marriage. Society has moved on, and though “people still attend”, the church is shedding members constantly in the West. Eventually, I see it becoming a primarily developing world institution.........
8
The tension originating in the fear to "schism or not to schism" has been apart of Christianity from the beginning. The Gospel of John tells the story of a man born blind and Jesus miraculously gives him sight. His parents are afraid to tell his story because of fear of the Jews. What they feared was being exiled from the synagogue. Eventually that is what happened, Christians either were excommunicated or left the synagogue. As regards modern times, Hans Kung , in his book "On Being A Christian", exposed "a number of inconsistencies in the official attitude of Churches: outwardly progressive, in regard to others; conservative to reactionary within their own sphere." Two examples, despite the long dialogue among different Christian traditions (Rome, Geneva, or Moscow) "there is not reciprocal recognition of ecclesial ministries." and yet these Churches hold in common a commitment "protection of human rights and religious freedom." In his last days, Jesus prayed that his followers would all be one. If schism is undesirable, then don't desire it; and yet Martin Luther was forced out essentially saying "Here, I stand!" and not with his accusers. Thus the paradox of schism. We chose membership in a Community Church. mMembers come from a variety of Christian denominations.
2
I am an old female atheist with a Protestant background. To me, all religions show themselves mortally dangerous to more than half the human species and to all other species. To my mind, for formal religions to become positive forces, they would have to: 1. give to children the safety and kindness they need (that is, truly cease accepting the abuse of children). 2. accord to women and people of other cultures the same humanity accorded to the most respected men in each sect, including the ability to determine the use of their own bodies, and the acceptance of females in positions of importance, including priesthood. 3. be guided in all things by the compassion they claim (and more), not just to humans but to all living things and to the planet that houses and supports us.
11
Does that mean that Christians should not have participated in the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the burning of witches, the religious wars in Europe, the selling of babies of Irish unwed mothers or the Holocaust?
Jesus was a Jew who spouted teachings that the gentiles could not follow so they blamed the Jews not for Jesus death but for his message which history documents they could not follow.
WWI WWII both wars perpetrated by Christians and though not in the name of religion, still Christians who acted against Christ’s teaching.
4
@Yuri Pelham
We must wait for the second coming
1
Since religious cosmology is grounded in nothing except the human imagination, schism remains a permanent possibility.
To get a different perspective on all this it is useful to look not at just one church, but at religion in its totality, the Babel of thousands or tens of thousands of doctrines, constantly splitting off from each other like bacteria in a warm flask of agar. Time to pour it all down the drain.
6
Since religious cosmology is grounded in nothing except the human imagination, schism remains a permanent possibility.
To get a different perspective on all this it is useful to look not at just one church, but at religion in its totality, the Babel of thousands or tens of thousands of doctrines, constantly splitting off from each other like bacteria in a warm flask of agar. Time to pour it all down the drain.
3
It's hard for folks to accept this, but it's likely that Jesus Christ never existed. Church leaders have been duking it out over doctrine since Peter and Paul. What's new?
7
People like Newt Gingrich and Bill Donahue and his Catholic League tried to turn the Catholic Church, along with all other religions into a tool for the American right. A lot of Bishops, who are in it for the pomp and authority, loved this. A lot of Americans who are Catholics because they have a psychological need for authoritarianism fell for all of this hook line and sinker.
But the Catholic Church is a 2000 year old institution and as much as it is addicted to authoritarianism, it has equally deeper roots in christ teachings on compassion for the poor, responsiveness to the community and so on.
The American right (especially the elite on the right) are only a little more than 200 years old based on heretical Calvinistic philosophy that says poverty is an absolute indicator of moral failure and so not worthy of compassion or consideration - a kind of ethics of unleaded selfishness. The idea that the Catholic Church, which crafted European civilization should serve as a tool to the American right is both an insult to the Catholic Church, and a form of schismaticism largely contrived out of illness, error and evilism.
The schismatic on the right don’t care, they love the authoritarianism & ideologicalism (which is intellectual moral lazyness which also appears to be decidedly antithetical to Christ’s call to “think” & “seek the truth” & makes a waist of all the space he gave towards teaching how to seek truth). The RCC either reacts against this or serves no purpose.
8
Schism?! What a silly idea!
Surely 2,000 years of bringing the Gospel (aka the Good News) to disbelievers has put to rest any such possibility.
After two millennia of torturing "heretics;" exterminating Albigensians; waging war against the Greek Orthodox and the Muslims; razing Jewish synagogues, building churches on top of their ruins and expelling them from their homes; burning"witches," gays, and Protestants at the stake across Europe and South America - surely the Church is too strong for a schism.....
12
Why does no one reflect on the extraordinary fact that the Catholic Church now has 2 popes? Benedict is supposedly in “retirement “. Past popes have had the reassurance of the Camerlengo tapping the previous pope on the forehead to assure no more interference from that quarter, not so Francis. If you think Benedict is kneeling in prayer all day in his private quarters and not secretly stirring the pot , then there is a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to talk to you about.
5
Perhaps the concept of the "catholic church" is worn out and no longer needed. Is there a place in the world for authoritarian religiosity?
9
It’s astonishing that adults can still preoccupy themselves with such religious nonsense while the world burns.
16
The burning of the world is nothing new. Those suffering burns are the most likely to embrace supernatural encouragement, affirmation, and rescue.
3
This is an institution which, for decades or longer, systemically raped children and attempted to cover its tracks. It should be disbanded.
15
I’ve heard that conservative Catholics are upset with Pope Francis’ focus on immigrants and extending a welcome toward strangers/foreigners. Why? Jesus’ command to do this is the parable of the sheep and the goats. How is this a “liberal” concept?
19
Like Christianity, like all religions, Catholicism is a delusion, a lie, a fantasy, a sham. If the Catholic Church gets a schism because of extreme-right wing reactionary Catholics, well, too bad.
Sure, a little of the Catholic Church's hypocrisy will be taken away.
But whether in the nutty variety, or the mainstream genre, Catholicism will remain an affront to human intelligence, and a disease of the human mind.
We should all be ashamed that such shackles on thinking are still hobbling so many of us.
7
I have actually read the gospels - carefully - and I have not been able to find where Jesus said "Thou shalt be a bigot" or "Tear the children from their parents and put them in cages." Maybe if I keep looking.
18
Scientology's beliefs are ridiculous and yet no sillier than those found in the Catholic Church. The only thing that differentiates them is time. At their core, they're both brilliant ponzi schemes that amass wealth and power at the expense of those who are desperate, lost, and gullible.
15
Conservative Catholics "Focus on the Fetus" for political power of course. It is a horrible institution that is intent on forcing unwanted babies into this overpopulated world. I like Pope Francis' Focus on Helping Others instead. Jesuits are the only good part of Catholicism.
11
The most interesting - perhaps fascinating - aspect of this column is to observe with wonder how an otherwise intelligent human can be so saturated with religious nonsense that he would indulge in this angel-dancing-on-pins exercise in pseudo intellectual gymnastics.
14
The break is coming -- about every five hundred years. First the Jews, then the Muslims, the Orthodox, the Protestants, and now the modernists. But I don't call them schisms. They're secessions because all will eventually return to The Chosen People.
2
“And if — let us say — the Amazonian synod allows for married priests in special circumstances and produces a document with faintly-heretical formulations, then as with Francis’s ambiguous shift on remarriage and communion, the change will matter, but not enough to break the church.”
Why are your knickers in a bunch, oh Father Doubt That? Aren’t you aware that there are already mechanisms to produce married priests? Aren’t you aware that priestly celibacy, over which you obsess, has only existed for less than half of the church’s existence?
As for the putative shift on remarriage and communion, it has always been there, and it has always been a joke. For two examples, I give you the risible annulments obtained by Rudy Giuliani and Newt Gingrich, whose mistress of eight years’ standing, now the third Mrs. G., is now the odious ambassador to the Holy See.
Look, Father Doubt That, your church did the inconceivable and lost the Irish. That means your church is terminal.
11
Schisms in the Catholic Church preventing it from becoming monolithic? Good.
Jesus was all about schisms: "I have come to set the world on fire, and I wish it were already burning! I have a terrible baptism of suffering ahead of me, and I am under a heavy burden until it is accomplished. Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other! From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against—or two in favor and three against."
Then Jesus turned to the crowd and said, “When you see clouds beginning to form in the west, you say, ‘Here comes a shower.’ And you are right. When the south wind blows, you say, ‘Today will be a scorcher.’ And it is. You fools! You know how to interpret the weather signs of the earth and sky, but you don’t know how to interpret the present times."
Jesus didn't cling to the traditions of the past. He condemned them and used a quenching fire as his analogy.
Does it destroy everything in its wake? Yes, but like a fire that destroys a forest floor, it permits a new creation to emerge from its ashes.
Schisms? I say, bring them on like a great fire!
5
Random observations. First, this is a curious, even hostile venue for an RC like you to write an inside the Bernini colonnade piece. Very inside baseball stuff. The secular, non-Christian, feminist, gay, left-leaning groups here have many reasons to be both uninterested and deeply negative.
Second, as someone who made the opposite faith journey to yours (RC to mainline Prot.) you are missing the forest for the trees. The biggest problems in your church are corruption and criminality, both centered on two things. Prelates paralyzed by secrets. Secrets about their closeted sexuality and self-loathing, or when straight afraid to go against the club. Secrets about financial corruption and mismanagement of the lay congregation's funds.
Then there is the second problem. Clericalism. No power, except the checkbook given to the people who are the church, the worshippers. As long as "pray, pay and obey" is the way, no reform of any lasting effect will take hold.
9
When all the hocus pocus is gone you are left with a global tax dodging child abusing cartel with fancy costumes. And considering the abuse is ongoing I don't see where that church gets off telling anyone anything.
17
Who cares what all these grifters and their marks think? It's the followers of the shoe vs. the followers of the gourd. If the universe could laugh, it would be in hysterics over this pointlessness.
6
Reminds me of the (perhaps apocryphal) story about Karl Rahner being asked about Vatican II and allegedly having quipped “Jesus wouldn’t have understood any of it.”
4
The whole idea of "Christ" relates to what happens to people after death. Now we know that everyone makes it to Nirvana (permanent oblivion) on our first try. It is a moot issue now.
The Catholic Church used to run France.........now, very few French are even religious. Most American Catholic women use contraceptives and divorce is accepted. The Washington Post just printed an article about a Catholic Bishop from a poor region of Virginia that abused his power and money privilege to live a Falwell Jr. lifestyle. Catholic Church, the world is not waiting for you to get your act together. People will leave the church and be happier for it. The choice is yours.
8
There's already a schismatic liberal Catholic church: the Worldwide Anglican Communion.
But surely the true schism is not within the Catholic church but between those members of the church who choose to stay and those who choose to leave.
My mother passed away last week. Her best friend, a lifelong Catholic, was talking to me outside the hospital room just before the end. She told me that for her it was working in the office at the local Catholic church that completely "opened the curtains" for her. She knew about all the recent scandals, of course, but it was only by working there that she truly saw the "daily corruption and hypocrisy." (Her words, not mine.)
What will it take for others to make the break? As a a former Catholic myself, I suspect it is fear that keeps many people in the pews.
The question is not liberal vs conservative, but why anyone -- even someone who strongly believes in God -- believes in the Catholic church.
50
As a former Catholic, it bemuses me why allowing clergy to marry is even an issue. Clergy were originally allowed to marry until the Church's concern for preserving its earthly wealth led officials to change the rules, and even today, Church officials give a nod and a wink to priests who marry their pregnant mistresses or whose local cultures disdains celibacy. It appears to me that ultraconservatives have seized on celibacy in their quest to achieve maximum "purity," raising celibacy above the poisonous developments it contributes to: loneliness, depression, alcoholism, and sexual abuse.
102
Practical reasons. Priesthood is not just a job like any other, it is a vocation. A lot is demanded by priesthood. A wife and kids require a lot of attention and energy, if you want to be a good father. The family has to have the same commitment to service, otherwise the family will fall apart. I knew a Lutheran pastor, wife and two kids, who was never home. On weekends, traveling, then deployed with US troops abroad. His family did not like that type of life. It ended in divorce. Another practical reason, married priests would increase the operations cost of the church. There is a shortage of priests and nuns in the advanced economies countries and that could change things, again, for practical reasons. Any young man or woman who follows his call to service God today in the US, is someone very special and worth of admiration.
5
@3Rs -- Those are exactly the same reaons that were advanced years ago by the Church. I see that they are alive and well today. How about all of those families who have the same issues and the parents don't get a divorce?
15
I am not sure if celibacy leads to all these things you mentioned. In study after study, priesthood is the profession with the happiest members among all professions. Clearly if sex is an important part of someone’s life, then priesthood is not for him. A priest can quit anytime and probably do better financially, and have all the sex he wants. I have been among priests all my life, and they are happy, positive, normal people. I guess my luck because I know there are exceptions, which have been widely publicized.
3
It’s long past time to end tax exemption for religion. They can deduct their charitable work like the rest of us.
If that were to happen, the Catholic Church that emerged might actually fill the pews of the churches that survived.
8
It took the Church 350 years to admit that the Earth revolved around the Sun. It will take a lot longer to recognize that enforced celibacy is actually rather perverted- leading to lots of bad outcomes.
10
Ross Douthat's column gives me a painful case of jaw-dropping-ness. He pontificates (ouch!) on endless, labyrinthine matters of Catholic politics without so much as a nod to the horrors of clerical rape and sodomy, the ensuing cover-ups, the perennial oppression of women, and the money, money, money (it's estimated that the Vatican's art collection alone is worth somewhere north of $2 billion). He sprinkles his column with arcane words like "sedevacantism," and "syncretism," like holy water, as if to insinuate an ecclesiastical imprimatur.
You have to wonder if Douthat is rearranging the deck pews on a theological Titanic. Is this a form of distraction? Is it denial? How could anyone in the Church think this stuff is relevant? The Catholic Church now, and probably always, resembles not so much a divinely-inspired institution as a completely man-made one, and a corrupt one at that. Douthat's motives, and those of the many other Catholics like him, not his arguments, are the only interesting aspects of his writing.
15
This piece scrupulously avoids the true source of the controversy which has dogged the Catholic Church for centuries:
Exactly how many angels fit on the head of a pin.
8
I find it ironic and really tragic that the writers in these comments who dismiss the Catholic church as antirational and antiscience nevertheless find no irrationality in the fiction that sex is a construct, merely "assigned" at birth. Those who criticize the "rigidity" of the Church's moral teachings as harmful would nevertheless endorse the modern practice of blocking puberty in children and later subjecting them to barbaric surgical procedures to remove their genitalia, all in the name of sexual liberation. Those who decry the Church as sexist are perfectly willing that males should be allowed to strip female students of scholarships related to their expertise in athletics and to inhabit their most intimate and protected physical spaces. Yes, this is progress all right, and the Church is a primitive, antiquated institution whose relevance to our time has passed.
7
My brief fling with the Catholic Church ended when I realized that the nuns I was taught by were the most bitter, nasty, unfulfilled women I had ever met, looked down upon by the priests and pushed aside by the Church they served. If that was what being the "bride of Jesus" meant, if being Catholic included treating women as second-class, I wanted no part.
11
Approximately a thousand words on a carnival sideshow, one full of duplicity, hypocrisy and perniciousness worthy of Donald Trump. Perhaps the Church can take inspiration from Trump and make a reality show out of its precarious situation: “The Real Men of the Vatican,” “Parish Perverts,” or “Schism Wars.” Profits could help defray some of the cost of the abuse lawsuits.
But, isn’t the Pope infallible on matters of dogma? If so, the Church would be appear to be schism-proof as whatever he would say goes. But then, that would go against the Catholic tradition of cherry-picking beliefs – customizing your own unique Catholic package from an anachronistic buffet of patriarchal delights.
But faced with all the swirling smoke and mirrors, Douthat, backed into the corner of cruel reality, suggests that Catholics don’t rock the boat too much – perhaps a “charitable style of debate between Catholic factions” might be in order. In other words: let’s try to postpone facing reality. Let’s just kick the holy can down the alley. Amen.
I can't wait for the first season. of shows.
10
It may be worth while to point out that there are twenty three catholic churches, and the Latin catholic church is only one of them.
4
The Catholic Church is already embroiled in a schism that has divided America. I am referring to the asylum/refugee issue. The thought that our little civil war is being enabled by church leaders coaching foreigners in what to say is appalling.
There are limits to everything.
4
Since the 1800s, the Roman Catholic Church has claimed that the pope is directed by God and can make pronouncements that are infallible. If Catholics really believe this, how can either the liberal wing or the conservative wing say that the pope is leading the church into error?
6
They can both say that because, although the Pope CAN proclaim a teaching of faith or morals Ex Cathedra ( infallible), he hardly ever DOES so.
The Catholic teaching on contraceptives, for example, was never promulgated as an infallible directive. And so, the vast majority of Catholic women trust their own experience and individual conscience rather than submit to the directive of the celibate make leadership.
3
Ross we live in the 21st century. In my humble opinion the Roman Church must work with the laity and go forward with changes. This is supposedly a body of the people, not the hierarchy who live in a world of royalty and pomp and circumstance. Enough of the silly robes, jewelry and chauffeur driven cars. Women in the clergy and married priests! What are these old men afraid of?
9
Is there nowhere in this supposed schism a discussion of the core imperative to follow Christ's Sermon on the Mount? It all seems to come down to self-righteousness run amok.
5
My reaction to this is, so what? The institution that allowed priests to abuse children for decades, which has stifled the physical, spiritual and mental growth of women, which allowed the Magdalene sisters to exist, that allowed the rape and subjugation of the Native populations of the Americas, destroyed their writings and cultures, that led the invasion of Africa by white colonists, that instigated the Saint Bartholomew's Massacre, etc etc would not we missed for a moment in my opinion. Let it crumble to the ground.
9
My observance is Christ centered; everything else in Catholicism is about property, politics and polemics. It's what keeps the church in constant turmoil.
3
Reading this, as a recovered Catholic, Krishna devotee, born again Christian, Buddhist, I am so glad that I finally found Atheism.
12
If you have a functional brain, you will be vilified as a “Cafeteria Catholic”. The Church should rid itself of nonsense like the ban on birth control, and the Church should stay out of our bedrooms. Just as Galileo was correct about the earth orbiting the sun, the communion host should be considered symbolic respect rather than an actual physical transformation. Give science it’s due. Allow priests to marry and be female.
8
"Faith is the belief in something you know just ain't true" - Mark Twain.
7
So what if there's a schism? People who have a different interpretation of the Gospel have been going their own way for centuries and we are fine (well, if you ignore the brutality of the holy wars and the race to conquer other peoples in the name of my god instead of yours.) Of course if the Roman Catholic Church were to split, it would have less money for its ostentatious architecture and bureaucracy. And which side get the bill for sexual abuse victims?
I guess the dogma that the Roman Catholic Church is the One True Religion(tm) dies hard. But the aforementioned brutality has discredited the childish "my Jesus is better than yours," or "Jesus likes me more than he likes you because the man who preaches to me on Sunday is not allowed to get married" arguments.
2
A schism, which is essentially a divorce between two religious factions would be deliciously ironic. If the faithful are forbidden to tear a marriage asunder, why should conservatives permitted to do so to The Church itself?
Sounds to this atheist like the con and lib factions desperately need spiritual counseling.
2
If I was a practicing christian I would be far more concerned with the damage extremest Fundamentalist both Catholics and Protestant are doing to Christianity. These extremest make social humanism and materialism an attractive and joyous options to Christian metaphysics.
5
Not a mention of Tim Busch, the Napa Institute, Raymond Arroyo, or EWTN. That’s a lot more than Twitter for the conservative side.
2
Raised a Catholic but I can’t bring myself to support a church run by people who allowed the pedophilia. I think that the laity should run the church not the Cardinals, as I don’t recall reading about Cardinals in the New Testament. But my biggest problem with the RCC is it’s continued opposition to birth control. If we are to solve the climate change problem the global birth rate must be reduced.
5
Schism? Maybe a good thing.
Reformation? Certainly a good thing...
2
From the first, the Church has always been syncretistic. It willingly absorbed Hellenism and Zoroastrianism in the First century in favor of Judaism, and syncretism has continued apace as Christianity spread across the globe. As Richard Rohr regularly writes, the Catholic Church today is less about the life, death, and resurrection of a Palestinian Jew and more about Greek and Roman philosophy. Present day objections to African and South American forms of syncretism are quite simply driven by an admixture of anti-semitism, colonial racism and fear that the Church will no longer be Eurocentric.
4
My personal schism began when I realized that there was no daylight between Church doctrine and Republican talking points. Ross, there is nothing wrong with the liberalization of the Francis era. It's long overdue. Too bad the conservative intellectual crisis did not come to a head generations ago when it was obvious that the Church was playing musical chairs with pedophile priests.
443
Ross, please tell us about Opus Dei and Leonard Leo's Federalist Society. the rest is all yours.
44
Ross writes intelligently. Long words, fifty-centers at least, roll off the tips of his fingers by the purse-full. Yet he persists in his absolute belief in an invisible sky-guy who is responsible --and who, therefor, must accept that responsibility and be held accountable for-- the dire and dour straits, not only of "His" religions but the combustible condition of the this planet's current climatic and political state.
The schism that must occur in order for Earth to have any chance of remaining a habitable rock is for a schism between religion and reality.
9
Even if Mr. Douthat is not a theologian, I'm sure he knows the difference between pantheism and panentheism and the difference between syncretism and ecumenism. The latter ones being good old fashioned Catholic tradition. A major obstacle between Catholic liberals and conservatives is what one group (as if one can simplify it so) sees as essential, the other sees as inessential and vice versa. The same seemed to hold true of Jesus and some of the Jewish religious leaders of his time; especially the traditionalist religious leaders who seemed to have had a hand in his death. Jesus was certainly considered a heretic among some so-called traditionalists.
2
Many followers of the Catholic Faith have abandoned independent thinking in favor of blindly following the leaders of their churches. In many instances, those church leaders are not motivated with a desire to enlighten their followers as much as they are motivated to become the recipients of their congregations adulation.
4
Douhat is arguing in a sense, about the number of angels dancing on Vatican pinheads, who lead lives where they are not touched by the real lives of the faithful. And they did lead lives where they believed themselves - not the Pope - to be the real decision makers in the Church. Where they think that they can continue to isolate themselves, make the walls higher and never face change.
Pope Francis has never turned away from set dogma; nor will he turn away from people. He has been the hope of the Church to hold on to relevance in this century. He inherited the executive position in an organization roiled by it's abuse of the "faithful" in countries around the world, one which was still fighting facing the truth. He also inherited every snake and scorpion determined to hold on to the old, deplorable, ways, and they seek to undermine his leadership to protect the dark underworld.
Framing the differences as a conservative / liberal split is a self limiting approach to an discussion.
2
The success of the Catholic church is to remember that the word "catholic" means universal. The problem is Conservatives take that to mean Catholic with a Big "C" i.e. ubiquitous and omnipresent. Liberal Catholics take it to mean catholic with a small c i.e. all embracing and inclusive.
Years ago I was told by more than one Catholic priest that my taking birth control was against Catholicism and that I was not to partake in the Sacrament of Communion until I stopped it, confessed my "sin" and permanently renounced it. Nor could I advocate for my brother who happened to be gay.
For many years after that, I maintained my membership, but with a small c, still advocating for my brother and still taking birth control when I chose.
I left the Catholic church altogether several years ago for many reasons. Never thinking I would ever attend any church again. I discovered the progressive Anglican church who has traditional worship yet ordains women and gays and allows me not to have to leave my critical thinking at the door.
17
There won't be a schism, just a continuation of the grumpy marriage between conservatives and liberals. The conservative Catholics try to make the liberals feel so unwelcome that we run away and don't bother asking for a divorce (which would require a distribution of property). People like Douthat will never walk away, they'll just encourage people like me to abandon the Church.
I'm not abandoning the Church. I would've walked away decades ago if the Church resembled Douthat's fantasy version, but it never has. The community of faith will always be more important than the bickering of the top clerics. I have faith that this will always be so, and that no amount of sternly worded books/opeds/tweets can compromise the beauty and comfort of the Eucharist and surrounding Mass.
2
The church has to regain its moral authority as the myriad scandals have left many of us disillusioned and skeptical about the church's true mission. The scandals have driven away youth, and previous followers who no longer give much credence to the church's so called moral teachings. Many of us have our own beliefs and find it difficult to adhere to an organization that systematically protected predator priests.
4
I’m not so sure the Church ever had moral authority to regain. The scandals of abusive priests merely uncovered what had been going on forever. Let’s not forget the Magdelene Laundries. The Church is an authoritarian and patriarchal institution that only cares about preserving its power and the propagation of the faith. I left the Church after learning that the Church was silent about the Nazis. I speak only of the institution not individual Catholics who, like most people, want to live a good and moral life. But I do not understand the fascination, like Douthat’s, with the internal machinations of the institution.
3
Thank you for your refreshingly sensical opinions. Living in California (a state whose leaders display very little common sense) I very much appreciate your columns and radio talk show every Thursday.
1
The Church would do the world a service if we could model a way beyond echo chamber division where no one persuades to one where dialogue can lead to solutions, broader understandings, and even a revitalization of community. Worthy of prayer and action.
1
I gave the Church the benefit of the doubt for decades. Finally I realized the teachings of Jesus about forgiveness, and love thy neighbor, etc. had nothing to do with the institution of the Catholic Church. I still believe in those ideals just not the Catholic faith or church. Life has become much more peaceful and fulfilling.
11
I see many comments that converge around the question, "Why do Catholics continue to believe in their faith?" The answer is quite simple - there is a joy to be found in continuously understanding the message of the Catholic faith. Unfortunately, like all institutions on earth, it is run by humans who sometimes commit errors and grievous sins. But I just returned from a Catholic mass in New Jersey just now, and the church was full. The Message is one of Good News. It is a message of total sacrifice by One for all others, it is of forgiveness and redemption by God who loves each and every one of us, and who wants to have a personal relationship with each and every one of us. Understanding this Good News leads to the understanding of the importance of serving others, and this creates a community of people that want to be together, to celebrate the Good News, and to contribute to the good of society. It is why the word "Communion" is so important, and all of this is what Catholics love about their faith.
11
"More conservative Catholics suggested I was importing anxieties from my childhood Protestantism into the more stable ground of Catholic faith.
For someone who has a shallow knowledge about the history of Catholicism, even the history of Christianity in general, Douthat blows it again.
He is a Johnny Come Lately Catholic, having spent too long in an evangelical setting. There is a giant schism that has affected the Catholic Church in the US. Most, but not all (of course) don't listen to Rome too much. Priest all over the place do not pay much attention to Church rules because if they did, the would leave little boys alone. The whole Protestant world is the result of a schism and then there are schisms in the Protestant world and even schisms in the various denominations of the Protestant world. Religion has lost its impetus, There are more NONES in the US than there are Evangelicals and Catholics.
I have studied religions all over the Northern Hemisphere for the last 50 years. There have been schisms in the Catholic Church since it began, they did not call them schisms then, they called them Heresies. But they prevail even unto this day. Luther was a schismatic, as was Calvin and also Zwingli, but Douthat calls all of this heresies. In his world, everything that is not Roman Catholicism is heretical. I personally like Luther's idea that every man is a priest and should be able to read the Bible in a language that they understand. Erasmus was schismatic.
8
@Bill Dooley
To me he seems disturbingly orthodotic meaning he’s all about the rules - which is deeply superficial - and not about the spiritualism.
His grasping the former without the latter renders the former purposeless.
3
Robert Mickens, writing for La Croix International, an independent Catholic newspaper, asks this question of those critical of Pope Francis and talking of schism: "What core doctrines or credal statements of the Christian faith has he (Pope Francis) called into question?" The answer is: "Not a single one."
Based on my reading of Catholic commentators in multiple publications and conversations with Catholic friends and family members, my conclusion is that the opposition to Pope Francis is ultimately opposition to the developments that came our way as a result of Vatican Council II. Francis has embraced the spirit of Vatican II, a spirit that was manifest in Pope John XXIII's (the one that put Vatican II in motion) counsel to all: "In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity."
Those insisting on breaking with the Catholic Church under the leadership of Pope Francis already have a schismatic group available to them, one that I am sure will welcome them, the Society of St. Pius X (Lefebvrists), with headquarters in Écône, Switzerland.
7
It's not entirely clear to me what, exactly, my many Catholic friends think about Catholic preservation. I think they believe in God and believe the Catholic Church is the necessary connection to God. Most are generous and tolerant people who think the social strictures of the Church (celibacy, anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-abortion, etc) are at best unnecessary to their faith, and, at worst, worthy of ridicule. Being an atheist, I certainly don't speak for them, but I doubt they would object to cleaving Mr. Douthat's medieval leaning faction from their midst. Maybe schism is not so bad.
6
I have never seen the Pope Francis in person, so my only question would be does he truly channel the Holy Spirit? There was no uncertainty about this with John Paul II, whose spiritual connection is why he is a Saint today. It is the only thing that matters for any religious leader, making clerical politics, church scandals and theology in the end, irrelevant. Perhaps my view is too simple for the Church intellectuals, but I wish they would not forget the goals of faith in order to argue about the path.
@David Godinez, Wojtyła should never have been Pope, much less canonized. There was nothing "spiritual" about protecting pedophile Marcial Maciel Degollado from the consequences of his crimes against humanity.
3
The idea of so destructive dispute over what is nothing more than Church changing the penalty for certain offensive behaviors is so astonishingly invigorating against the backdrop of banality that floods the airwaves. At least it requires deep analyses of what it means to be good AND human, or not. The prevailing wing will have a chance to limit further the set of sinful capital offenses. Maybe love will prevail. Regardless, history’s unfolding into the future will be affected. Everything.
Ross Douthat should be concerned less about Catholic Schism and more about the exit of women and young people from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, if it is to survive in the United States, needs to change, welcoming women and individuals who classify themselves as LGBTQ, accepting a married priesthood, women priests, divorced individuals and pro choice advocates; and embracing broader views of spiritualiity, worship and social consciousness. The American Catholic Church has politicized itself and become a bastion of conservative Republicans and anti-abortionists. The particiipation of its leaders in the cover-up of rampant pedophilia has resulted in a massive exodus. Schism is not the issue-- reforming the Catholic Church to become more responsive to the needs of people it presumes to serve is the issue.
16
The fundamental problem with Douthat's anlysis is that its premise is that schism is bad. On the contrary, what's bad is monolithic institutions, which, like economic monopolies, tend to abuse their power, as have the many of the Catholic clergy involved in sexual abuse and the church in its coverup of that problem.
8
Francis was a Jesuit. Jesuits were at the frontier in Latin America at the beginning of the post-Columbian era. The Jesuits came up with the concept of cultural relativism - the idea that the indigenous population were inherently good people, that a just God would not punish them by depriving them of the Kingdom of God if they failed to learn or practice the dogma of the Church.
As a lapsed Catholic, Francis and the concept of cultural relativism has made me more inclined to listen to the Pope.
In today’s world, we need more tolerance.
Whether there is a schism or not, it doesn’t matter. There already is a more dangerous division of “Christians” in this country. There is a group of Christians who hate people with skin pigmentation darker that theirs, when in all likelihood, Jesus and his first followers were Middle Eastern and Mediterranean, with skin for darker than those modern conservative “Christians.” These conservatives hate and want to isolate from their brother, those who are poor. The modern conservative “Christian” has no desire to love and engage in acts of charity for those who are deemed less than. Instead they have fear. They have forgotten that faith without works is dead.
Let there be a schism if it allows a church to flourish with the belief in kindness for all people.
6
"in all likelihood, Jesus and his first followers were Middle Eastern and Mediterranean" What else would he have been? Don't equivocate: Jesus was a man of color, full stop.
4
@Ben
A person who is foreign to your community provides you help & mercy in time of need, while a member of your community ignores you. Jesus then asks, “who is your real neighbor?”
I take that as reinforcement that being a member of some (evangelical or other) Christian sect as not being as important as being a good neighbor and doing good to others.
2
This column is interesting “inside baseball” for those outside the Catholic Church and clarifies the issues behind some of the recent news about the institution. I have two questions for those with more knowledge:
- I had thought the big schism on the horizon was between liberal theologians in US/Europe and VERY conservative church leadership/flock in Africa. Is that more of an issue for Protestant churches?
- I saw an excellent movie (“Hail Satan?”) on a group of (essentially) secular humanists pushing back against Christian fundamentalist erosion of separation of church/state in the US, and the Church pedophilia scandal was one significant element in the loss of church moral authority and support. Ross’s article makes it seem like the scandal is more an issue for liberals in Catholic Church but this has been ongoing for decades (centuries?) Are there really “sides” here or is this just being used as a cudgel against Pope Francis?
Thanks for any additional insight from those who know better.
3
Let's hope that the schism fractures the church into one or more useful parts, because as it is currently as a whole, it has lost credibility and trust.
5
First, no one church can possibly be all things to all people. This is why the early Christian Church was structured around LOCAL bishops and particular churches, a tradition which remains intact in Orthodoxy and the Anglican and Lutheran Churches of the Porvoo Communion. Christianity is cultural.
The Church of Rome has continually failed to recognizes its roots in a particular, Southern European, Latin culture. The Church is going to split, like it split before, because it SHOULD split, because it has once again gotten too big and churches should be local.
Second, this is just anecdote, but most fellow parents I know whose child is making their first communion in the next few years is doing it "for the grandparents." Most of the moms have said "this is it, we're done."
But again, it is a matter of cultural disconnect, but this time between the celibate hierarchy and the real flesh and blood of family life. What do you expect, when the powers that be in the Church are so far removed from the culture of family life? What do you expect from men who have never changed a diaper or known the intimacy of marital sexuality? "Family" and "Marriage" is nothing but an academic abstraction to popes and bishops. Humane Vitae and John Paul II's ridiculous "Theology of the Body" is so laughably off base, based on the experience of actual marriage and family life, there is no point in even engaging it unless you feel bound to it by obedience. And most of us don't.
4
Ross Douthat overlooks some of the issues affecting the Catholic church in deeply negative ways: (1) the insistence only males can become priests despite the presence of women at Pentecost; (2) the loss of moral authority by American bishops for probably the next 100 years due to the priest sex scandal and its coverup by the bishops, cardinals and probably popes; (3) the deep conservatism which probably drove off the younger Catholics.
6
Schism? Not among the few hundred people who still feel obliged to show up each weekend to sleepwalk through Mass at my moribund parish. Clericalism? The priests they send our way seem perfectly content with the low expectations we now have of them. They’ve got a roof over their heads, three meals a day, and nothing to worry about as long as they keep their hands off the kids.
6
Hidebound tradition and unbending dogma meet an increasingly diverse and rapidly change world schism as inevitable now as it has always been
1
What is more likely: a schism or mass desertion, empty pews and empty collection baskets? There are other more palatable options open to anyone who is tired of being told by supposed celibates (of increasingly doubtful sexual preference) that practicing rational family planning is a sin. There are welcome mats out in front of other fine places of worship just down the street. This is 2019, not 1619.
2
The rites and culture of the Catholic church in third world nations is very different from that of the Catholic rites and culture in the Western world.
Since second and third world countries are the only places the church is growing instead of getting smaller it would be safe to say a split has already occurred.
But in the great scheme of things given a mad king is president of the strongest country in the world, climate change and desperate poverty in most of the world's population who really cares about the inner workings of a sect?
4
Any schism boils down to what we give a position of prominence in the showcase of Christianity.
Jesus put forgiveness on display in the showcase. To show us the nature of God, Jesus forgave us for the evil that we did to him. For Jesus, forgiveness was the centerpiece of Christianity and he put forgiveness on display in the demonstration of divinity that took place on the road from the Crucifixion to the Resurrection. Forgiveness is one of the blessed fruits of love. Forgiveness is the vehicle that Jesus used to show us God.
Schismatics put the trivial aspects of Christianity on display. They highlight the minutiae of Christianity. Their portfolio of faith and morals is out-of-balance. It is out of whack. They over weigh morals and under weigh faith.
Beware the cleric who does not know that forgiveness is the centerpiece of Christianity and, therefore, deserves a position of prominence in the showcase of Christianity. Beware the cleric who does not shine the spotlight on the asymmetrical answer that Jesus gave us to the evil that we did to him. He is incompetent. He is committing clerical malpractice. Get out of the zone of danger. Run from him. Run fast and run far.
The wise anchor their understanding of God to the revelation about God that erupted into the Valley of Tears out of the violent collision between Jesus and the evil we did to him on the road from the Crucifixion to the Resurrection. The understanding of schismatics float freely like a cloud.
I am the grandson of Irish Catholic immigrants. My father was one of those in the majority of people who, born Catholic in the United States, left the Catholic Church. When the Boston priest molestation scandal broke, I called him and thanked him for keeping me safe. I, in turn, have kept my children safe by keeping them away from the Catholic Church and predatory priests.
I couldn't care less about doctrinal disputes. A church that continues to cover up for child molesters is an institution that no one should have anything to do with.
14
Somewhere between logic and my biology classes at a fine Catholic high school I reasoned my way to atheism as a 16 year old. So, while I retain a certain affection for the Church, its patriarchalism, its systematic shielding of child abuse, its support of the concentration of wealth and power, and its unremitting hypocrisy outweighs my admiration for the core of really good priests, nuns, and lay Catholics. I've veered back to the conclusion I reached as a teenager -- the Catholic Church is a deeply flawed irrational institution that we need to leave completely behind us as we haltingly advance toward a rational society.
8
So 'liberals' and conservatives' are discussing the possibility of not living together in the same house? Gee, what a concept.
Otherwise, because the author failed to mention any concrete examples of differences with distinctions. might I surmise that said schism is all about pro and anti child-molestation advocates?
3
The author is addressing this as a “First World problem”, like some acrimonious debate between two Senators, while the true and critical fate of the Catholic Church lies in how it addresses both its endless sexual abuse of children, and whether or not it will contribute its vast wealth and political power in the Third World, which it is busy attempting to colonize.
3
No mention the Supreme Court is an Opus Dei Conservative Catholic majority.
Separation of church and state?
No so much anymore.
I am a lapsed Catholic.
Beware the American theocracy of God, guns and hedge funds.
Ross, if there is a god it’s good orderly direction.
4
The contortions of those that attempt to prove the " Theory of Christianity " is astonishing and resemble the contortions of those that try to prove the earth is flat. This is the age of Einstein and Bohr. Its passed the time to establish a new paradigm of rational morality. Try it you`ll like it.
4
@ben
Secular humanism.
12 years of Catholic school here. Why otherwise intelligent people still debate theology is a mystery to me. They made it all up and make it all up today. Being more fervent or angrier or posing as a martyr (or even being a martyr) doesn’t make it any more objectively true. That people killed each other over this nonsense still amazes me. That other “religious” people still kill each other over squabbles about stories and aspirational (usually regressive and oppressive) rules is just so sad. Let it go. Just let it go.
7
For a faith that holds their leader to be infallible, y'all sure do bicker a lot. It doesn't have anything to do with obscene wealth and power, does it?
8
The Catholic Church remains an institution that can't get beyond abusing children, and living the high life. The only schism is on how much to hate LGBTQ people and women.
The Church doesn't need a schism, it just needs to plainly end. This isn't an organization with moral authority, all that is left is a criminal enterprise.
The only thing "conservative" catholics want is more hate towards women and LGBTQ people. Whether they are members of their faith or not is irrelevant to them.
So hate and criminality... I have waited for decades for moral reform, and frankly their is none in that institution. Schism, start with cleaning house. None of any of the Catholic Leaders conservative or liberal deserve anything but retirement, and a great many still deserve jail time.
5
“Conservative” Catholics are in bed with “Conservative” Republicans because the Catholics want to reinstate male supremacy by way of subordinating women under the guise of ending abortion. Granted there are Catholics who believe that fertilized eggs are people, but they are exploited by cynical operatives who collaborate with church hierarchy. Legislating personhood to comply with Catholic dogma is theocratic and violates the First Amendment. Catholics will deny this as will Republicans and Evangelicals until efforts are made to provide for inheritance rights for fertilized eggs. Catholic dogma sharia law have 2 millennia of history and religious wars and millions dead in it’s wake that prompted founders to protect America from “official religious beliefs.”
Then there’s the sex, marriage, divorce, remarriage, and gay controversies that “liberal” Francis wades through. Each of these issues were imposed on Jesus teachings and not derived from them. Of note, the Synoptic Gospels addresses divorce and the permanence of marriage is suspicious in their agreement and wording. The Catholic divorce enforcement is absurd in context with all manner of “sin”.
Priests marrying was ended in 1189 to prevent the offspring of clergy from inheriting property. Interesting of course was the persistence of “Prince Bishops” throughout Europe. The pedophile priest scandal is a scandal of the Church hierarchy who used the cover of privilege and blackmail of priests to conceal and enable offenders.
6
From my Catholic studies I learned that God chooses the Pope through His Cardinals. The Pope is God’s choice because God perceives this man as the appropriate leader for our times. Therefore these sects are openly defying God.
1
The talk of schism is a protestant overlay.
The labeling of "liberal" and "conservative" is nonsensical.
To paraphrase Lumen gentium - "The whole world is catholic whether one knows it or not."
If you don't know it, you're inclined to talk about schism and think in terms of ostensible factions.
If you know it, then the path is pretty clear:
1. love one another,
2. And go to mass.
3. And follow and inform your conscious.
"Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's not true." - Ornette Coleman
2
Isn’t the real schism between reality and fantasy.
7
And I think you are wrong, Ross.
I think that what is going to happen is NOT a schism --- the peasants lined up against each other, the pitchforks raised in the night, catching the reflected flames of the burning rectory --- but what is happening now and has been for the last 2 or 3 decades: a person lays their head down at night, a believer, and wakes in the morn an atheist, all belief leaking out in the night while they slept.
No reason why.
No one yelled at them.
No one chased them out the door.
They just got tired.
I don't remember the last time I heard any good news about the Church, what it was doing with its money or the labor of its people.
But I sure do have a laundry list and half of bad news.
Peter, Paul and Mary -- the folksingers, not the 1st century people -- had a song they used to sing called, "Too Much of Nothing" and I suspect that that is what will bring the Church down.
The opposite of "love" is not "hate" and the opposite of "hate" is not "love".
The opposite of both love and hate is indifference.
Too much of nothing.
3
The ideological schism in the Catholic Church is clearly apparent in Poland, particularly since it is closely connected with politics, just as so much of the Reformation and 30 Years War. There is a large reactionary majority, wanting to go back to a pre-Vatican II, pre-Enlightenment Church, very closely allied with the governing "Trumpist" Law and Justice party, opposed to a small minority coming out of the intellectual Catholic movement of the Communist period, with which Karol Wojtyła was loosely associated before he became Pope. The liberal minority strongly supports Pope Francis, who in turn has made one of their number his Almoner and a Cardinal while pointedly not appointing any other Polish cardinals recently. The rectionaries are known for love of pomp and in some cases luxury, for anti-LGBT, anti-semitic and nationalist sympathies, and for trying to sweep cases of clerical pedophilia and sexual abuse under the rug. Since the fall of Communism, the Polish Church has wielded enormous power, regaining vast properties in shady circumstances, and forcing harsh anti-abortion and anti-in-vitro acts through the parliament and imposing state-funded teaching of Catholic religion in state schools. The episcopate of the Polish Church is solidly reactionary, since Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI appointed largely conservative bishops.
5
Reading the essay and following the conjoining and diverting lines of logic is an interesting intellectual excercise on a Sunday morning, (like the mini crossword,) and a welcome break from reading yet again about the latest from you-know-who in the White House.
But we can resolve the conundrum.
13.64528 angels can dance on the head of a pin.
There.
Let us pray.
3
An "Episcopalian evolution on contested moral issues" would be a very good thing for the Roman Catholic Church. It would both ignore the schisms of the 16th and even the 11th centuries, and bring the church back to the core of Christianity found in Matthew 22:35-40: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
Jesus's words are also found in Mark and Luke, as well as in a slightly different form in John. They mirror the Hebrew Shema, but seem to have been forgotten by the Roman church as well as the "Evangelicals." Some Episcopalians, some Lutherans and some Presbyterians -- the much maligned mainstream Protestants -- are still trying to live by them, however.
1
Very well thought out!
Mr. Douthat just described the American Democratic Party.
1
Schism, schmism... This is a Church mired in the minutiae of "canon law", something few other Christian denominations have felt it was worth the time to codify themselves and consequently people are fleeing the Pope's rule-bound religion.
More than twenty years ago, my wife and I took a trip to the Holy Land with a group of mixed Protestant ministers and their congregations. These ministers would stop to pray and preach during the trip, and I was astonished by the simple clarity of their preaching, getting right to the heart of Jesus' teachings. A few of these ministers had no more than two years study at a theological school, as compared to the eight years of seminary that Catholic priests must go through. The result is that the priests in every parish I've been to speechify as if they're still being graded on their homilies by their seminary professors; in short, 99% of Catholic priests are over-educated, highfalutin' gasbags.
But I left the Catholic Church rather than join any other denomination. I have hope it will change, and hoped under this Pope it would have, but he is, unfortunately, unconcerned that his Church is being hollowed out. He's paid lip-service to child abuse scandals and cannot see that celibacy is the problem, both in recruiting priests and stopping the victimization of children. Leave climate change to the politicians, Pope Francis, and fix the holes in the roof of your Church, as your namesake did 1,000 years ago.
2
As long as conservative Catholicism holds that the only path to salvation is through sacraments administered by a male ordained Catholic priest, the church has a problem, not to mention the ban on sex for any purpose other than procreation within marriage. Pope Francis is correct in emphasizing the real sins of neglecting the poor and willfully savaging our environment. However, the first thing Pope Francis needs to do to save the church is declare himself fallible ex cathedra. From that point on, the Catholic church can admit and correct its mistakes.
2
The Catholic Church of the future is based out of Latin America. This is the church of the youth and the poor. This is the church that Francis pictures. This is also a church that white conservative Catholics in America and Rome won't rally around. German liberalism is also a no-go. I predict that when the first brown skinned Cardinal from South America is chosen as pope, the conservatives, led by the Americans, will break away. The biggest problem will be splitting up the Vatican's assets. That will not go smoothly.
166
@MJG Your forecast doesn't sound farfetched. But I doubt there will be much about splitting up Vatican assets. The 109 acres that make up Vatican City is a sovereign state. Those schismatic conservatives who live in the Vatican will take their possessions with them. The battle of possession with happen within individual dioceses. In the U. S., they are 501 (c)(3) organizations. If those dioceses think they have a problem with clerical sexual abuse, it will be something to see parishes fighting with their bishops.
20
It is hard for an atheist like myself to grasp this kind of discussion about the fine points of superstitious beliefs. The real and meaningful schism seems to me to be between those who have accepted the teachings of science and those who persist in believing in the supernatural in the face of those teachings. As our scientific understanding of the origins of the universe and the evolution of life on Earth becomes more sophisticated the ability of the human mind to cling to beliefs developed long before scientific inquiry disclosed the real impetus for things like drought, illness and a rising sun seems even more remarkable. On the other hand, religion has often provided a basis for keeping men in power and women in their place, so that may explain its staying power.
10
Perhaps the Church should look to the pews for guidance in determining the directions it should take. Look not only at those who are in the pews but perhaps more importantly, look at those who are no longer in the pews. Why are they there or not there? Dig into that question for its guidance and perhaps it will learn something. It may not fit the mold that the various factions have crafted for their positions however it may shine a light on God instead of on parochial interests. We Catholics believe that Jesus is the Son of God, by extension then we should believe that we are all the sons and daughters of that same God. I believe that to be true and that those of us still in the pews and those of us no longer in the pews have a story to tell, think of it as a parable. A story simplified so that even the densest of church leaders can understand it.
5
As is so often the case, Douthat sees Catholicism from above, rather than from the ground. As a theology prof at a university that describes itself as "Jesuit Catholic," I see daily that the schism has already happened among young people and folks working in the Catholic trenches. Our school and our students widely support LBGTQ rights, are more concerned with the church's stands in immigration, women, climate change and racism that "heresy" and internal church politics. Most are at best tenuously attached to the institutional church. Yet many have deep faith in the Good News of Jesus, which has always run counter to institutional religion, Jewish or Catholic. The loveless conservatives can have the institution, while those yearning for God's justice in the world witness to what true faith looks like in daily life among the people of God.
15
On Ideology:
“The problem with ideology is that it tries to answer a question before it’s been asked” - Bill Clinton
Which leads to...
“We had to destroy the village in order to save the village.”
In other words:
“Ideology always leads to nihilism” - me
Two problems with RCC: ideologyism & Authoritarianism.
English Common Law is a system that relies on pragmatism instead of ideology. Initially a judge was presented a question that he had to answer. In doing that he had to sort thru a variety of competing values: justice, virtue, liberty, property rights, the King’s interest, free contract & so on. An apple from my tree fell on to your land: who owns it? From a stand point of property rights, I do. But had I been more industrious, I would have harvested the apples a month earlier. The King wants apples harvested & placed in commerce where they can generate tax revenue, so the Judge awards the apple to you to create an incentive for me to harvest the apples. This is a system of pragmatism/common sense that helped make Anglo-Saxonism globally dominant, English church appears to function in this way balancing out virtues instead or relying on ideology.
“He who is not against me is for me” - Jesus (paraphrased)
Some people need authoritarianism, To me that looks like an illness. There’s little in the Gospels espousing authoritarianism & much espousing the opposite.
None of us are the same. Different illnesses need different cures. Maybe schism isn’t a bad thing.
11
"Tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to listen to Jesus, but the Pharisees and scribes began to complain, saying: 'This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.'" (Luke 15:1)
Anyone who attended Catholic Mass today heard the above passage from St. Luke, followed by the parable of the Prodigal Son.
Which brings me to the bizarre point regarding Mr. Douthat's column today on American Catholicism. Nowhere in his column does he ever refer to Jesus Christ, nor does he even attempt to ground his position on any kind of scriptural references or the teachings of the faith. He may as well be writing about Pacific trade policy.
His column also assumes a false equivalence between the Pope and his conservative critics (dare I call them "scribes and pharisees"?). While the Pope is attempting to bring the message of Christ into the 21st century, the American Catholic counterrevolution is decidedly a secular political power play.
This movement had its origin in the Reagan-era GOP and was manifested through the controversial Opus Dei organization, led by Antonin Scalia and including such famous converts as Newt Gingrich and Robert Novak. A number of wealthy conservative Catholics funded this movement to counter the liberal slant in the Church's social teachings.
As a product of the Latin American church with its wide disparities of wealth, Pope Francis is very familiar with what is going on here. Instead of the ruling Fifteen Families of Nicaragua, we have the Fortune 500.
23
This opinion piece is a good example of why organized religions are dying. They spend too much time debating the esoteric rules that are to be followed in their tradition. People want and need to believe in a god and an afterlife but all of the man made rules and traditions the different religions and sects fight over are inherently irrelevant.
14
I find it interesting that in science, mathematics, social sciences and other fields of thought, new ideas are critiqued and tested and finally welcomed if they are rational and intellectually sound, while in religion new ideas are viewed with suspicion and fear. A "schism" is a uniquely religious thing, because it describes a departure from ways of thinking and doing that are rooted in ancient texts and the supposed actions and desires of a supreme being whose existence must be accepted on faith alone. Because of that, I think that catholicism will ultimately fracture into a thousand splinters - because what cannot bend must ultimately break.
10
I believe people choose Catholicism for the rules and structure. I doubt for most members of the faith that ambiguity and open-mindedness are going to work for them.
3
Schism is a universal problem. Around the globe, forces for autocracy and oligarchy are benefiting from clever manipulation of social and conventional media.
Our split may have been a natural one but Putin et al has put a heavy wedge in it and is bringing down the sledgehammer.
5
@RjW Putin is deeply connected to the Russian Orthodox Church, which itself is in a Schism with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and other Orthodox churches over its actions in Ukraine, among other reasons, such as extreme views of Russian clergy.
It appears that Russian subterfuge and division is ripping apart both the eastern and western church.
10
I had the good fortune of growing up in an atheist family. I became an elementary particle physicist and, based on the knowledge I acquired, began a cautious, ongoing internal inquiry about the divine. But I can only shake my head when I read one of Ross's theological columns. I'm still not sure which way the truth lies, but it sure ain't that way!
15
@Stefan
Think about the discussions of quantum mechanics and you'll get an idea of the theological polemics that have always existed in the Catholic Church.
2
It’s amazing how those either disenchanted about or disavowed of religion leap at the opportunity to share their critique of it. I’m not sure who proselytizes more: those with faith or those who have left it.
More on point, while this is an opinion piece, it is also a great projection of the writer’s fears, or maybe hopes. The only conceivable schism would be an American Catholic Church, with more liberal values towards divorce and same sex marriages, from a conservative European Church, the latter of which has adopted what I believe are more Christ-like qualities under our new Pope. Frankly, I would welcome changes such the right for priests to marry. It would certainly alter the vocation, but likely in a way to heal the Church heal from its past sins.
7
Over a lifetime of participation in the Catholic faith, I've come to realize that most of what we fight about are cultural manifestations playing out in a very highly organized religion. I don't see any evidence in the roots of my faith that the marital status of clergy is a matter of faith. Whatever cultural issues drove celibacy are long gone. Perhaps it can remain an option for some orders. But the history of priestly misconduct has shredded the notion that celibacy somehow sets the clergy apart -- in a protected place not subject to the messy issues of marriage and family.
25
@Michael Meotti
Well, as long has the Church's policy regarding birth control remains in tact, imagine the expense of supporting a non-celibate priesthood with families of six or more.
3
There was a period in the history of Catholicism when people were tried for witchcraft, and when the Inquisition tried people for heresy. In 1431, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake. In 1920, she was canonized. The Catholic Church has ended its practice of trying people for witchcraft and heresy. This massive change did not lead to a schism.
If Pope Francis extends the right to marriage from Ukrainian Catholic priests to the Roman Catholic clergy, it will probably not lead to a schism. If the Pope, who is infallible, allows gay marriage for both priests and laity, it will lead to an increase in the popularity of the Church.
13
Meh. Given that the Church had married priests from the time of St. Peter, "the Rock" (himself married) through the 1100's and the church-building inheritance money grab of Pope Innocent's "celibacy" (which was not implemented fully for hundreds of years), I find it very difficult to associate a resistance against doing *away* with so-called celibacy with the religious conservatives...of which I am certainly one.
7
In the simple faith taught to me by the Christian Brothers, the Pope was infallible, and that was that. When the Pope makes a catastrophic mistake, like outlawing "artificial" contraception, that puts the Church at odds with the people in the pews, it's hard to find a way out that doesn't involve a schism of some sort. I think that was the issue that damaged the Church's immune system, that made it fragile, vulnerable to all the controversies that have followed.
Today, I am an interested observer, no longer a participant. I don't have to worry about whether the Pope could possibly be wrong, or whether he really is the Pope at all. Frankly, it's a relief.
43
@writeon1 Papal "infallibility" has a very constrained definition. Asserting otherwise propagates a falsehood. Suggest you look it up and become better-informed.
When the Pope stubs his toe against the bedpost in the morning, it's not because he's infallible.
3
I'm a recovering Catholic, indoctrinated from an early age. In my youth I was the entire package, fell away when I was about seventeen. All of the arcane dogma, rituals and belief in miracles is just mind control.
Today I'm more of a pantheist, which is the concept that 'God' IS the universe, we're just not seeing for forest for the trees.
36
@Mark McIntyre
Sir, with a little more effort, with a little more thinking, you may soon come to realize that there is no need for any kind of divinity to explain anything, and even less to establish any moral principle.
22
I think Ross is correct in that the Catholic Church, though experiencing severe tensions between its conservative and liberal wings, possesses a durable center as evidenced on the ground by its revered if dwindling Sunday service and community outreach. The church continues to be vital in the lives of many individuals and families. It seems to me an outright rupture remains a low probability event.
7
The true schism occurred when religious leaders focused more on the How than the What.
There is no schism among Christians when one believes in God, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that showing love to all is the one rule that should bind us all.
And there is no schism among people of all faiths or none at all when we keep to the golden rule of "Love thy neighbor".
Schisms occur when people get self-righteous about who has the right to lead and the rules that used to translate the basic tenets of being a good person and leading a good life into reality.
Pope Francis, with his focus on the "what", shows us there is a big tent that the Catholic church could operate under if it wasn't for the petty bean counting ways of the religious leaders who get twisted around being right.
21
@TheWholeLife
I will gladly stick to the Golden Rule as long as it does not come with the mountain of mythological absurdities Christianity has buried it under.
1
As I grew out of my early youth, I let go of childish things. Organized religion does not resonate in my life. Even so, I look at the 'seven deadly sins' and 'seven virtues' as well as Gandhi's 'seven deadly sins' as meaningful guideposts. I believe this set of guiding principles affirm life and humanities role in it. The 'deadly sins' can be found active within institutions and individuals. These short expressions act as a lens of discernment and are windows upon the 'souls' of these agents in our day-to-day lives. Submitted, in the hope that they enlighten institutions and seekers.
13
Why would undermining clerical celibacy, permitting priests to marry, be a cause for schism? Ukrainian-rite Catholic priests have been permitted to marry for centuries. It is only Latin-rite Catholic priests who cannot marry. Any ban on priests getting married is based on practical considerations, such as they are. There are no theological issues involved.
351
@J.A.K.
Really? You dont see how those things would split the Church? Just because another Sect does X, does not mean it fits neatly into another.
The theological issues are due to tradition - which since you clearly do not know - Tradition (capital T) is a huge part of the Catholic Church's foundation and its rules.
While the non-marry rule is outside the biblical aspects of what the RCC bases its doctrine, dogma - there is also Tradition. Which plays a huge role for the RCC. Tradition is a governing set of rules.
10
@Boregard Tradition's rules are whatever traditionalists say they are. Which makes them much less doctrinal.
Besides, celibacy is only about a thousand years old in a two thousand year old Church. It wasn't always Tradition, and remains more like a tradition.
Recent history suggests it was always a bad tradition, not to say unsupported in the Jesus mold. St Paul invented it for the coming apocalypse of 100 AD.
69
@J.A.K.
I, for one, fondly hope the Catholic Church will never allow its priests to marry. For that is the surest way it will someday be irrelevant.
32
It's a shame that religions which morph and develop organically for a long time get codified and petrified. Faith becomes obedience to codes, not a living and evolving thing covered in the fingerprints of those who helped mold it.
Maybe that's why love, compassion, and acceptance in today's religions appear to be rationed out, an exercise in checking off doctrinal boxes to see who deserves them. If you don't measure up, you face judgment, stigma, ostracism, and accusation.
Christianity was a growth from other things. Sad that it has become so institutionalized that the idea of it itself growing is seen as a bad thing. Tradition is good, but not if it turns living breathing faith into a dusty, legalistic museum piece.
229
@David Jones
You just noticed this? 2K years later?
The same holds forevery other Organized Religion with a set of scriptures. Be it Judaism, Islam, various Buddhist sects, Hinduism...once there are texts, there are codes and rules and behaviors.
And trying to separate Faith from these codes and rules is a fools errand. Everything involved in a Faith based system involves referring back to these rules and doctrines.
God says X, so I believe X. Is wholly rules based! Its wholly based on the Traditions that what this God says and asks of us, is based on a set of rules and behavioral guidelines!
I think what you're talking about is the misty swamps and forests of Spiritualism. Where there are few if any rules, and few outlines of what is acceptable and not to believe in.
A Church, any Church, Mosque, Temple of any Faith, by its very nature demands rules and codes.
3
@Boregard I promise I'm not just noticing this. I've been writing off and on about it for a bit. My contention isn't that this is a new observation, but a necessary one which some haven't stopped to consider. Your points are quite correct, but a person doesn't have to abide by codes to have valid and active faith. The need for codes is understandable for an organized religion, but for a living personal faith it's not very healthy.
9
@David Jones
If only religions staid petrified ! The problem is not dead or dying religions, it's the lively ones, it's the cancerous growth ones.
5
Mr Douthat never explains the significance of retaining a male, celibate priesthood or a ban a divorce in terms other than a list of items that conservatives are against, so his columns seem like an exposition of factional struggles with trivia as a purported reason.
Which, it occurs to me, it may be: it may be that the reason Douthat never explains the importance of the male celibate priesthood is because it’s not important in any sense beyond being chosen as the reason for the fight. If it wasn’t that it’d be something else.
15
Douthat has not answered an important question. Why should the 250 million Americans and 7 billion people around the world who are not Roman Catholic care about this potential schism at all?
44
@MEM
It is a long cherished habit of Ross D. to ask questions and never answer them properly. He shies away from many a dirty word, from "capitalism" to "hypocrisy" by way of "delusion". Which is why he is such a good Catholic.
3
@MEM given the history of previous schisms being the backdrop for wars... it matters.
when martin luther posted his 95 theses he unknowingly launched hundreds of years of wars fought between protestants and catholics in europe.
2
@MEM
Perhaps because it reflects on macro behaviors based on human cognition.
Ross, there's an enormous schism in the Catholic Church that doesn't seem to bother you at all. That's the schism between the treatment of men and women by the church. I'll never understand why any woman would want to be affiliated in any way with an institution that blatantly considers her a third-class citizen behind men and fetuses.
129
Thanks to Germans, the Church had a wake up call from Martin Luther. Wake up calls are important. The Euopean church is evaporating. The Americn version of Catholicism has become the half sister of the republican party. Perhaps as we evolve, we decipher a different path. Spirituality and 'religion' are two different things. With spirituality neither membership nor money is involved.
14
Like volcanic eruptions recur, schisms have occurred before in the Catholic Church and will, ultimately and irrelevantly do so again. Irrespective of the politics of the particular religion or sect to which they may be tied. The overwhelming majority of people do what they want and when they want. Rationalizing behaviour with purported beliefs is always ex post facto.
1
I am troubled about the very idea of schism—the of separation arising from a second order difference.
If one is Christian, there is a single belief that is the sine qua non of Christianity— Jesus Christ is the son Of God and is God. Deny that, and there is no Christianity. Now, there is the idea and dogma of indefectibility—that Church teaching cannot be in error. And that leads to disputes among believers in the first principle – that Jesus is God -- who disagree on the dogma of indefectibility, and are consequently separated from those who accept indefectibility. So, in some sense, that dogma must be as important as the first principle, clearly a reduction ad absurdum.
I think Francis wants to dwell on the first idea, for if people do not believe that, nothing else matters.
4
@just wondering: Jesus purportedly claimed to be a "son of man", which in modern terms suggests only that he believed his own personality was a cultural infusion.
The Catholic Church is in crisis, and has been for quite a while. Its model of a male-dominated hierarchy of celibate spiritual leaders is a fraud. Celibacy has proved to be useless, unrelated to spirituality or virtue, and a cover for all kinds of hypocrisies and abuses. Instead of transmitting its sacred message, the Church is dedicated in many parts to pushing for more ritualism, fundamentalism, and draconian laws against abortion and homosexuality, two topics completely absent from the teachings of Jesus. The CC is a failing institution.
I'm not sure how you fix this, but schisms, declaring moral bankruptcy and starting over, and such other extreme measures don't seem so drastic anymore. Francis has made an effort to remind everyone what the important stuff is, and to be a true spiritual leader instead of a rigid rule-enforcer (like his two predecesors), but he's up against a mafia bent on protecting its interests and earthly privileges. And I say this as someone who grew up as Catholic and still values its spiritual legacy enormously.
26
I think a schism has been underway for 50 years. Attendance at Mass is dwindling. The lack of men entering the priesthood has reached a crisis point.
6
For the life of me, I can't grasp why anyone thinks this matters. Most of us moved on centuries ago.
36
@David: Reference to the dead participating in the lives of the living are quite common in the US, where presidents invoke the concept in commemorative addresses.
5
Social institutions, business models, products, whole product categories have 'sell-by' dates attached to them just like foods in the grocery store. Once the date has been reached they may continue to be safely consumable for some time yet to come, but they start to lose 'flavor' and social 'nutritional value'. Examples--Newspapers: A paper like, for instance, the NYT will go on being read for decades to come, it may even be the last newspaper standing, but it's in a shrinking product category which is no longer in demand. Fossil fuels: Oil will always be needed but in declining amounts so it will become increasingly hard to make money in the business. If you're looking for a career, look elsewhere. Religion: Public interest in religion is in free-fall, has been for decades, so much so that public interest in a Catholic Schism is of no interest to anyone but diehards and cranks. Never mind about a schism, the Catholic Church should face reality and pack it in; religion professionals need to find a new scam.
11
Also, the best thing Francis can do to insure the continuation of his vision after his death is to keep on creating new cardinals. Here in the USA, we complain about the Electoral College, but the even older fashioned College of Cardinals is the one way to keep the conservative dinosaur cardinals from regaining power.
6
If the Church is to survive, at least in the US, schism may be necessary. If the Church were to welcome women into the hierarchy, allow married clergy, and take responsibility for the millennia of oppression and bigotry in which it enthusiastically participated, it would drive out the unholy who are stuck in the old bigoted, sexist, and unChristian ways that have now gotten the Church as a whole into so much trouble.
I would welcome such a schism, with a new Church emerging that welcomes all and stops being the force for ill that it continues to be in our times.
8
PS: and that’s a movement with which I am honestly uncomfortable, having been raised in the immediate aftermath of Vatican II.
1
That would surely create a schism, probably in an attempt to get Catholics to “come home.” It won’t work. Most people in the pews would leave and take their money with them. Most of those who left won’t return. And many of the current priests and most all the seminarians (who are by and large extremely conservative) would bolt, too. The strongest movement in the American Church today is to move back to pre-Vatican II tradition, a
2
The real problem for the Catholic Church are the millions of former Catholics, like me, who consider the possibility of a schism from the vantage point of a mostly disinterested observer from the outside.
14
Allow priests to marry, a in the Eastern rite Catholic churches, allow women priests - or at the very lease a female deaconate and then there will be no need for schism. If Catholics want protestantism they have many choices wothout creating an American Catholic sect.
2
Perhaps married priests will save the Church and not break the church. What did He say........"Fear not.....". This debate is proof positive that the Catholic Church is driven not by love and a spiritual connection to God, but by power and fear. Pope Francis isn't the problem. He's only one man.
5
Nope. It would accelerate the schism as most people still in the pews are opposed to ordaining women or married men (beyond the handful of Lutherans and Anglicans who crossed the Tiber); they include most of the heavy hitting donors who support the US Church. And those who say they will come back will simply not do so.
1
@David: And you know this HOW? Did you take a poll???
@David: Most Catholics I know think it’s ridiculous priests can’t marry.
1
Schism? Ecumenical councils? Polemicists?
What a lot of needless strife and senseless bother! Catholic theology is a scary fairy tale composed inadvertently by successive generations of sensation-seeking priests and barely literate monks.
Toss away the theology, burn the Catechism, retire the elderly celibates, and return to the founding and fundamental doctrine of Christianity, the New Testament.
7
I believe in the Church based on the fundamental teaching of Jesus, that is love one another. I do not believe most of the doctrines of the church. I do not even believe Jesus is God. Now the question is, am I a Catholic?
10
Oh, Ross -- you are a convert! Now I get it. We get a lot in my church, from the other direction. And not having been raised in this church, they are always searching for a rule book to quote and to settle arguments with. As it's an Episcopal church, that isn't easy, but they are pretty desperate to "get it right" (and tell others what that right way is).
15
@December, You are so right! Cradle Catholics that I have known are usually loving and kind. Converts seem to have joined for the chance to control people, especially women.
2
The American Catholic Church is off the rails and throwing a temper tantrum because they seem to believe that their medieval interpretation of scripture, which seems to utterly skip the New Testament, must rule the day at all costs. Perhaps the leadership of the revolt would be better off joining Falwell Jr, who they have much more in common with, and becoming Evangelicals and letting the Church return to its appropriate ministrations.
20
Best answer (so far) to this issue.
4
Protestantism was a breath of fresh air for Christianity five hundred years ago and things have become a bit stale in both communities. Time for another bout of fresh air. The more women involved in both religious hierarchies, the less of a problem there will be with sexual abuse of children. The old boys club just perpetuates the same abuse and injustice. Bring on the schism.
17
My goodness, Ross. Schism was the furthest thing from your mind and writing when JPII and Ratzinger (eventually Benedict) were running roughshod over the teachings of an ecumenical council (which, I will remind you and all right wing Catholics, are more authoritative and definitive teachings than any pope, infallible or not) -- liturgical, ecumenical and oriented towards social justice.
Now that the shoe's on the other foot, everyone who used to talk about the importance of following the pope aren't too vocal about that, are you?
22
Whenever I read people's agonizing over their religion's rules and regulations, I think of what cosmic genius Stephen Hawking said: Religion is fairy tales for adults. Let us leave fairy tales for our children.
18
The labels USA and Roman Catholicism will remain the property of a cannibalizing oligarchy, as we apathetic 'faithful' continue the plunge through democracy's fragile gates.
2
“......but he has consistently avoided pushing conservatives into a theologically-untenable position, choosing ambiguity over a clarity that might cleave his church.”
How often in the past have conservatives in the church embraced and fought for an idea or belief that they considered to be crystal clear that later proved to be false?
10
The wasted time and effort to follow the pretzel logic of organised religions is stupefying. The Vatican is a business that pays no tax and Pope Frank is its CEO. They are bookies who have convinced the poor of the world to bet on an afterlife - and luckily for Frank and his gilded cronies they'll never have to pay out! That's a brilliant business model.
The rest is hot air generated by the silk and ermine clad inheritors of a mythic tradition who's earliest founders believed the world would end and that they would be taken up bodily into the atmosphere, in their lifetime! So do what you will, harm no one and pay your tax.
16
20 years ago 9:00 AM (children’s)mass attendees had to arrive at least 15 minutes early to get a parking spot, and the back and side aisles would fill with 9:00 AM arrivals. no more. attendance is sparse, and those who don’t attend, along w those do, will be surprised to learn of schism talk, and won’t know, or much less care, unless they read the times.
ho, hum.
6
Ross,
Your traditionalism gets in the way of the real problem--extinction.
The Church is under existential threat and it's neither from the left or the right. It's from irrelevance. Yes the "leaders" of the Church, especially the more conservative ones you admire, are so out of touch with the body of the Church that the Church is rapidly dwindling. Don't believe me? Just go to any Church--there are fewer than 1/3 attending Mass. Try to find enough priests to serve our churches--you have to go to Africa to find someone. Certainly no American young men are taking up the priesthood. Catholic schools only exist where the public schools are terrible and, at least at my parish the majority of students are not parishioners.
Mithraism was a very popular religion at the Time of Christ. It died around 100 A.D. Our geriatric hierarchy is fiddling while Rome is burning. Christianity may suffer the same fate.
It's not Francis fault. It's all those old men under him. It's not women's fault, they[re not allowed to lead.
Irrelevance. Extinction.
24
Francis' action in reaching out to us Orthodox to end The Schism (note caps) will make his papacy memorable, no matter what the rest of his actions are.
We need unity just as much as Catholics do. My church came close to seizing Francis' offer. Unfortunately, my Slavic wing of Orthodoxy nixed the project.
My suspicion is that reasons of state, rather than of theology, drove this parochial action.
Regimes come and go, even in our Slavic world: remember August 1991. Let us hope that when this happens, my church will be ready to clasp the Pope's hand.
Please hold Catholicism together until then.
As my Catholic friend, Father Mario, says "we're each breathing with one lung."
Let's breathe with both, proclaiming the realization of our belief:
In One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church,
Vo Yedinu Svyatuyu, Sobornuyu i Apostolskuyu Tserkov.
4
Just a reminder that that when confronted with the choice of protecting the victims of sexual abuse or the abusers, the Church sided with abusers. It has zero moral credibility.
26
We shop parishes. The local parish went crazy conservative, and we headed over to the parish in the next town.
My personal favorite (roll the sarcasm drum) is the Church's opposition to abortion as well as birth control, which is one of the most logical solutions to abortion.
20
@RAB: I haven't been in 3 years, ever since the church said "vote pro-life"! And NOW look where we are!
They have NO BUSINESS telling parishioners how to vote!!!!
4
Did the pope really suggest that the Reformation started by Luther was “elitist”? Sad for him to dismiss what started as a rational reaction to deep corruption in the church by a humble monk “elitist”. He sounds more like Trump that the vicar of Christ.
4
Just about every non-Catholic Christian tradition can trace its roots to some original schism from... the Catholic church. Most are still around in some form. There are bigger things to worry about.
5
Please stop the nonsense: the church has had married priest in the past and does in the present in the Eastern Rite. St Peter was married. So the issue is economic; not theological. The church has always allowed remarriage for the wealthy / see annulment costs. Conservatives want to punish the poor and marginalized and that is the real issue here!
15
"Some years ago, when I was younger..." - this struck me as unintentionally funny. Wasn't everyone younger years ago?
5
As more and more leave the Catholic faith, these dogmatic maneuverings matter less and less, along with commentators who take them too seriously.
8
Thank you for using "sedevacantism" in your essay. It is rare that I need to learn the meaning of a word.
2
Abortion is as bedrock an issue for Catholics as it is for Republicans. Without accepting a humanitarian solution to this issue, there will be endless conflict. Abortion is a religious issue -- if you believe God made babies, it's a sin; if you believe sperm and ova make babies, it's not. Everything else can be elided (as the Church's squishy annulment policy has been for centuries, and some Popes had their mistresses and children living in the Vatican). But any person who tells women that their destiny is to have "as many babies as God gives you" to the exclusion of any personal ambition, health concern, or personal fulfillment is going to find conflict forever.
10
@annabellina: Your belief is an "establishment of religion". That means Congress is prohibited from treating it as a fact in legislation.
Conservative Bishops like Dolan and Chaput have done more to widen the gap between the two flocks. There are two types of Catholics, those who try to extend the word of God in the Gospels and those who are filled with Trumpian hate and intolerance. The latter we call the Conservative Catholics.
12
When the secular society becomes more Christian than the religion, the religion is cast in doubt. When the secular society accepted that homosexuality is in-born and homosexual love is therefore not a sin, the secular society became more loving than the Faith. As the secular society gradually accepts the equality of women and their right to an equal role in decision-making, it becomes more loving than the Faith. When the secular society is more concerned with the protection of children than with the protection of the institution, the secular society is more loving than the Church.
"Liberals" want to bring the Church up to moral date.
8
Does one need all the bureaucracy and hierarchy of the Church to learn and live 'love thy neighbor as thyself?' People have tired of the hypocrisy and small mindedness of the church experience. Do we need to wonder who God is when we cannot love our neighbor? or ourself?
3
You have to separate theology from politics. Only then will you understand that many Catholics don’t care anymore about Vatican edicts and the foolishness of the Curia. We are no longer ignorant peasants. We can read and think critically about the issues. The effort to continue to control the lives of women caused a true separation after Vatican II that won’t be healed any time soon. Failing to understand modern science and medical advances is another handicap that many clergy exhibit. I am still Catholic, I still support my local parish out of a sense of community, but my relationship with the Almighty is between her and me.
7
The Catholic church is an institution viscerally opposed to women's freedom. The loathsome scandals from which it is currently reeling are derived from this obsession with sexual control. Mr. Douthat seems to trust that his church will navigate these troubled waters quite easily. We can only hope for a real tidal wave of schism to clean up or wash away the whole corrupt structure.
5
Maybe Pope Benedict's resignation, had a deeper message: The 'revolutionaries' in the Church have always maintained that the Catholic faithful believe due to a blind obedience to authority. They assumed that by capturing the commanding heights of the hierarchy, they would be able to enforce a form of 'reform' on the faithful.
Neither view was true.
The 'power' of the recent popes was not in their authority, but in their faithfulness to Catholic doctrine. It was the logic and reason of the faith itself that held the real power. This 'capture' of the throne of St. Peter has been a pyrrhic victory at best.
The action of these 'revolutionaries' over the past 5 decades have left a church full of ignorance, sexual abuse and emptiness, but as always the Church will go on. While local diocese were infected with liberal reformers, the church had brilliant popes, whose writing and example became a beacon for Catholics. Now the situation has reversed, The fools who think they are in charge of the church are eclipsed by a new generation of good and faithful priests that were inspired by previous popes.
Benedict's decision to resign was more a sign of faith than anything else.
Oops, hit send before I was finished. Anyway, the statement, “Any doctrine that is not found in the Bible is man made.....,” has me bewildered. As far as I know the Bible is also man made.
11
What a bore it is reading this article with all of these isms. Nothing like a convert to Catholicism talking dogma to really put anyone to sleep. The Catholic Church in the United States is on its way out schism or no schism. It's male dominated, antiquated and mostly ignored views on sexuality, it's ridiculous abuses are driving people away. Plus lots of people in general aren't buying miracles or their way to heaven anymore. They don't believe in heaven,much less purgatory and limbo. I'm a lapsed Catholic who's regretting having sent her children to Catholic primary and secondary schools ( they got a good education but religion classes further alienated them from Catholicsm) . I could have saved a lot of money. Instead of talking about real issues like why aren't Catholic school teachers being paid more instead of millions of dollars going to pay for terrible anguish caused by pedophile priests Ross talks about "sedevacantism". Well Ross, these issues you talk about are really not "the" issues.
14
Isn't this really a debate for the non-Western world? Catholicism is simply fading away in much of the west. It's become a marginalized cult that few even care to try and influence anymore in the west.
4
@Matthew Hall
Not exactly fading away.
The church still has great financial resources which is uses to impose its views on non-believers.
Catholic hospital chains dominate health care in many pates of the US, where they are the only provider of medicine.
They are in a position to control the access to alternatives for women such as abortion, birth control and many other women's concerns.
This includes many areas in which there are few catholics.
Politicians often call this freedom of religion or conservative family values. The fact is is that it is an exercise in coercion and of institutional behavioral control.
This is a question of the exercise temporal power in the name of spirituality.
2
The problem in the Catholic Church in the US started about 30 years ago when the anti-abortion-above-all-else wing got in bed with the anti-intellectual, money hungry, Christian nationalist evangelicals and joined them in the culture wars.
The end result is a faction of the Church that is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Trump wing of the Republican Party. Anti gay, anti Muslim, anti immigrant, anti environment, the same selfishness just baptized with the term “spiritual warfare.”
And when the schism comes, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
13
Pffft. This is like choosing crocheting over embroidery, except not as useful.
The sooner the world can shake off these bronze-age myths the better.
7
I just read an article where some retirees are bout to lose their pension because the Catholic retirement fund was improperly funded. What is with this church?
4
I am not Catholic.
However, as a professionally trained theologian I can certainly point out: this is not schism. This is not two sides of the church tearing apart. This is not liberal vs. conservative.
This is a reactionary sectarianism breaking away from the main body of the church into heresy.
The same thing is happening in the Protestant world among white conservative evangelicalism. They do not speak the voice of the gospel. They are breaking away from the good news proclaimed and cherished by the global, ecumenical, church.
Trumpism is their favorite tool here in the USA. It is time for the mainstream church to call them out. Those who would attach the gospel of Jesus Christ to Trumpism have sadly lost the gospel.
14
Absent from this article is a discussion of the direction favored by Catholics in the developing world. Ya' know, where most of the church going Catholics reside. Apart from a minority elitist strain in Latin America, the silent majority in the church of the Global South is very conservative. How fast will African Catholics run away from the German model? No one has built an autobahn that can handle those speeds. Latin American Catholics are rewarding the church's concerns for their struggle against economic oppressors by migrating to evangelical Protestantism at amazing rates. In Asia, I found no sympathy for Francis's overtures to his fellow Marxists in the Chinese Communist Party. The next pope may very well come from Africa. If so, the liberal elites that Francis champions will appear to be non-observant, low-birth-rate anachronisms in the eyes of the rest of the church.
I love the Churches of all denominations and am happy Frances is Pope to lead us in worship of the teachings of Jesus, who you must admit was liberal as he fed the masses and healed the afflicted. So while you all bicker over teachings of the Church, I swill continue to focus on the teachings of Jesus.
4
@PATRICK
Please excuse the misspelling of "will". It's a federal manipulation problem somewhere between here and there.
I stopped going to Mass on a regular basis after Vatican II. Pope John XXIII announced he was throwing open the doors but all we got was the Mass in English which I dislike. Until there is a married clergy which includes women, I only go to funeral masses.
2
Francis is a Jesuit, so ambivalence is the name of his game. You really have to read between the lines to get where he's coming from. For example, when he rails against the "rigid hypocrites" in the Vatican hierarchy, many of whom he has demoted or retired since his election, he's thought to be talking about the homophobes who viciously campaign against gay marriage while sweeping rampant pedophilia under the rug. Not that Francis was great about addressing the pedophilia scandal, especially early on. But the influence of MeToo seems to be getting even to the pope.
He probably won't ever allow married priests or women priests, because the church is essentially a patriarchal, authoritarian, misogynistic institution. Too much liberalism and equality would rob it of power and money.
What really irks the conservative wing of the church is the liberation theology movement so popular in Latin America and in Francis's native Argentina. These far-right bishops and cardinals equate it with Marxism in the exact same way that Trump and the GOP equate liberal democracy with socialism.
No shock that Steve Bannon has been spending a lot of time with Opus Dei and other offshoots of holy mother church. In one Italian "retreat" they reportedly afix a new picture of Mussolini to the wall every single month. There's a long history of complicity between the Vatican and totalitarian regimes.
Two thousand-plus years is long enough for any institution to remain intact, wouldn't you say?
6
@Karen Garcia
Hear! Hear!
1
"Pope Says It’s ‘an Honor That the Americans Attack Me’"
-NYTimes Sep 4, 2019
That was not a compliment by the Pope. Schisms aside, the American Catholic leadership has failed in it's support of Pope Francis, not the ideology aspects but the basics. He was on his way to visit some African nations that need support, and for him to say that about "some" Americans is a shame.
Schisms are not at the congregant level in the U.S., its at the hierarchy, and its there in full color for the world to see.
Very sad indeed.
3
Schism? More like complete collapse, indifference, abandonment because of the perception of an ossified bastion of corruption and male privilege having nothing to do with its purported mission...
8
Fascinating.
And now that we're talking about arcane religious battles between powerful factions fighting for more power while the world burns and fascists rise and bombs explode, how about something really important like, say, how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?
Discuss...
8
Pope Francis understands that the future of the Catholic Church lies in Africa and South America, not in Europe, and specially not in the US, with their converts attracted to trappings and dogmatism, not the true meaning of Catholicism.
1
Having the Germans lead a schism from the Rome is like having a 1-15 team lead a schism from the NFL. Your churches are mostly empty. You’re not leading anybody anywhere. As for retired cardinals leading a revolution, has there been a revolution anywhere in the history of mankind composed of people all older than 70? Only on Seinfeld at the Del Boca Vista condo and the revolt had to be done by 4Pm so everyone could get to the dinner special. Please!
5
My grandmother raised her children Roman Catholic on a promise to her dying husband. She was protestant. We grew up in a blue collar anthracite coal town of prejudice, carbohydrates and religion. What the priest said was the word of God. I believed with my whole heart. Catholic education and even time in seminary. The truth revealed itself: it's utter nonsense. It's a perpetuating institution for manipulation and control. I am so sorry you've wasted your life on a corrupt misogynist fundamentally evil organization.
9
Re the Episcopal Church. Many, many Catholics are joining the “...higher...” parishes. Departures from the Episcopal Church arise from a number of factors. Conversions to Catholicism is one, often tied to displeasure with the EC’s more inclusive practices.
Soaked of it- a lot of it- is just secularization and tthe demands of modern life.
Some of it is the ever-increasing Catholic ritual in some EC parishes. Some people like it. Some do not.
1
Who cares if there's a schism? Douthat doesn't get to the heart of what ails the RCC until his reference to "a selective mix of transparency and stonewalling around sexual abuse." The people running this show think they are gods. They commit atrocities for centuries and get away with it. (Oops, our bad. So sorry).
The faithful will not complain, not the ones who haven't left already. They just want to get back to life before anyone knew-- by pretending nothing really happened or it's all in the past. As for the "issues," --celibacy, etc. --ennui sets in.
This is a rotten outfit, and if various wings want to have a schism, I say, schism on. But don't forget the evil you've done to children.
5
As a lifelong Catholic of varying conviction, this sounds like a healthy dynamic. Using the word “dynamic” in any form not preceded by “un” or “not” in reference to my Church feels like s step forward.
I left the " church" years ago,was tired of the corruption, now I live by the golden rule, don't judge people based upon their appearance, much simpler way to go through life.
3
Ross, I feel for you. You are a born again Catholic. I was raised a Catholic and did 16 years of Catholic education. You will never have that depth but I grant you that you are more articulate than I. But it is you job to be that. You don’t get that you must make your own religion. The RC church is a corporation. Forget it. Love, i.e, trust(leaning toward the Greek for love) God. And do the same for every human being. You don”t need the big corporation. You seem sincere. Hopefully, you will live long enough to get that.
4
Let's all ring our hands, why don't we. Another schism of Roman Catholicism! Is someone keeping score? When Roman Catholics aren't arguing with a faction in that Church over celibacy, birth control, child abuse, the nature of consecration, etc., they're arguing with the dearly departed Protestants about the true nature of Ecumenism.
The only schism that matters is that of former members of that Church from that Church, and in many cases from structured religion. I left decades ago, and I don't look back, let alone ring my hands over it. My life has improved for it, not deteriorated.
Truth is that if there is a God that God is in schism from Roman Catholicism. Nothing that is central to Christianity can't be found in equal measures in other religions, love of God by love of neighbor, or, as Jesus put it when questioned,
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Of course, Hillel had said it before him, and the Golden Rule had long before Hillel. But let's not have a schism over it.
2
It's hard to remain faithful to a church riven with criminals. The sexual assaults committed by an all male clergy has been an absolute disaster for the church. Allowing priests to marry is the only way forward. But, alas the Catholic boys club is unwilling to give up this power. It will be its demise.
3
The fate of the Catholic Church, or of any church, is simply not relevant to the major issues facing the Western world. For the majority world, which is Muslim, Buddhist, and 'other' it is even less relevant.
Two hundred, even one hundred, years ago schism in the Catholic Church would have an enormous effect on the political environment of the Western World.
2
Sadly we find there are still groups of Catholic intellectuals seriously debating the future of a church built on a foundation of superstition, the supernatural, and first millennium magic. It would be like taking seriously astrologers debating the relative merits of their debunked hypothesis. Of course we know these debates have nothing to do with beliefs (they change when it is deemed necessary to the survival of the church in an ever changing world). The discourse mostly deals with the best way forward in preserving wealth and power in an increasingly educated population. Hence the pivot by the church to recruit in poverty stricken uneducated third world communities who are perhaps more credulous.
6
Pope Francis has but 1 overriding task and that is to ensure that the Roman church still does exist a hundred years from now. Not an easy task in a time s where materialism, individualism and egocentrism reign supreme. Yet the church has no choice but to come to its flock rather than expectting its flock to come to the church. In the end everyone will share , more or less , that view and schisms then can be avoided.
Perhaps only American converts would present such an analysis. The real tension in the Church is between the African church and the more secular European and American churches. The African Church is led by the likes of Cardinal Arinze from Nigeria hoping to maintain a very conservative Catholic Church. It is the African church that is still growing and bringing new members Catholicism is America and Europe is in steep decline. The schism is coming but we don’t know yet what it will look like. At some point, the Church has to reckon with its place in a economically and science-based, read secular culture. Money is God, not our Creator who has taught us there is something bigger than ourselves.
84
Have you met any Catholic seminarians lately? I know a number of them in my diocese (we are happily blessed with more vocations than some other places) and they are to a man ultra conservative, Pope Francis notwithstanding.
11
@David
I concur with your comment on ultra conservative seminarians. Unfortunately, upon graduation they'll face near empty pews, financially struggling parishes and congregations aging out of existence. Where. one wonders, will these men serve? In the global south?
24
I grew up in a church which oppressed women. A church which supported brutal men. The beating of women was allowed till the beginning of the 20th. century. Rabbis condemned it in the Middle Ages. A church which protected abusers. A church which recommended the beating of children. A church which preached love and didn't care one bit. A church which condemned abortion and contraception and single mothers. German women are leaving this evangelical fundamentalist institution in droves. They improved a bit in the last years. It's not enough.
320
Believe it or not, a "family" claiming to be of Catholic faith, resides in Arkansas today. Unfortunate for me, I
have two daughters with one of the sons, Kevin Strobel. His "clan" practices several inhumane acts and has succeeded in manipulating virtually everyone and everything around them. On Sundays, in their ritual mass gathering, chanting of their hand in the death of jesus christ and more. My family and I suffer still this say from all the abuse. My two daughters are forced to go to a so called Catholic School and are kept from all of us. I have very strong old fashioned morals. And yes I believe woman has her place as well as a man and his. Though, I am not able to accept this way of life, or lack their of.
End drawing near,
Cassandra L.Williams
Arkansas
7
Many leave the Catholic Church when the institution has nothing to offer them and they do not care about the institution. In contrast, we may disagree with the US government actions but care and stick around to make it better, not quit US citizenship and become Canadian. Even those who said they would move to Canada if Trump wins ended up staying because they love this country and will become part of the resistance and hence save the US.
7
Almost no one notices anymore that there are two living popes -- the historical benchmark of schism.
Perhaps Rome isn't noticing that their aging flocks are thinning, and 50 years of theology wars have sabotaged their efforts to win new recruits.
5
As long people believe stories they WANT to be true, Mr. Douthat, you will never have to worry about the Church, which is why it thrives mainly among the poor, the uneducated, and the suffering. But as long as the arc of history bends toward enlightenment, the Church sets itself up for ultimate failure, for it insists, needlessly in my view, that members believe silly things. Fortunately for the Church, history has never seemed to run out of Dark Ages.
15
I stopped going to Mass at eighty years old after “practicing “ and participating until then. I finally figured out that men ran the church, and women were the low cost help. And after years of doing the teaching, the nursing, the dusting, the missionary work ,etc.the church could not afford the good sisters care in their old age. In The last parish I attended , the Sisters held a raffle every Fall ( $25.00 a ticket) to support their elderly in their nursing home. Schism or no, the Church is going to need committed women, whether it ordains them or not.
47
@Sally Brown
The term "practicing Catholic," used to be very common. However a person identifies his or herself in terms of belief or non-belief, the real measure is human decency, compassion, caring for nature and each other. As you point out, the Roman Catholic Church's treatment of women has been and continues to be wrong. Yet, many women and men continue to chose aspects of their Catholic tradition they find meaningful while disregarding the historical and current institutional contradictions.
To quote the 19th-century British explorer and philosopher, Sir Richard F. Burton, "The more I learn about religion, the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
10
The Catholic Church and the Republican Party share the same patriarchal god, and that is the reason I have left both. Their god is convenient, malleable beyond all recognition, a throw back to ancient times when covenants were binding but could be torn up in a fit of pique; when god created something with his right hand then torn it up with his left; when he could destroy cities on a whim; when women were chattel and thought not to have a soul.
This god had surely made Donald Trump and many in the church hierarchy in his own image--or vice versa.
Schism? Hardly. Self-destruction is a better word, and it applies to both the church and the party.
64
@Rose
All the Old Testament God, and as Lewis Black says "Gentiles should not read the Old Testament. The can't understand what it is about."
After the abuse scandals, I chose to worship in the Episcopal Church. Many of the priests and nuns I have known over the years have my deepest love and respect, but the institution, which hid child abuse, enabled abusers to continue, sold churches and property to pay lawsuits (churches and property paid for by parishoners) is terribly flawed.
I believe Pope Francis is on the right track, and , in my opinion, he is the reason many of my Catholic friends remain. So my prayers are with this good Pope. Long may he live!
14
@Jane
I respect your decision. Are you aware of the severity of sex abuse scandals in the Anglican Communion (e.g., Australia)?
4
@Jane
I respect your decision. Are you aware of the severity of sex abuse scandals in the Anglican Communion (e.g., Australia)?
1
@Thomas DuBois Thanks for your reply but I want to be with the congregation. See the children receive communion, be with my friends, sing the hyms while others receive the sacraments. Communion is more than the sacraments...it's being with the whole body of Christ...the congregants. But thanks for your thoughts.
1
I think that John Paul II was committed to a very conservative hyper-traditional patriarchal institution and wanted to rid the church of anyone who disagreed with his outlook. He alienated anyone left of center. He attracted a lot of the right-wing Catholics, like the ones we see on the Supreme Court.
Pope Francis is liberal only in the sense that he was out there feeding the poor, but certainly not in favor of women priests, married priests (unless they're running from the Anglican Church because they allow women to ordained), or LGBTQ.
It's becoming a relic.
12
I've never understood why any religion would fret over splitting into two different denominations.
If different members of the religion hold different values or believe in different things, if the differences are irreconcilable, why tear yourselves up with internal battles over which side wins?
Look at the Anglican debate over homosexuality. That's a fundamentally irreconcilable difference of belief. What would be wrong with having an amicable divorce?
It seems that it's all about misguided perceptions of "control" and "power," i.e. whichever religion has the most members thinks itself to be theologically "more correct" and/or "more powerful" as an institution. That might have been true during the Middle Ages, when kingdoms were more closely tied to religions, and combined wealth meant power. But in today's world, the hoarded historical wealth of the Catholic church doesn't give it any more power over other religions.
The whole situation is inside-out. Rather than constructing religions so that the "institution" exists in order to attract adherents to its tenets, shouldn't religions be built up from groups of people who believe similar things? Wouldn't the resulting religion better serve the spiritual needs of its members?
The problem for Catholics is that they think of themselves as catholic (i.e. universal). Clinging to that hubristic view is untenable in the modern world. Religions exist because of the spiritual needs of its people, not just to prolong an institution.
7
@Paul-A: There is no way to establish any faith based belief by sensible methods reproducible by anyone. That is why they are all "establishments of religion".
The conservatives' animosity toward Pope Francis' supposed liberalism strangely echoes their decade-old dislike of Barack Obama, whom they enjoyed painting as the founder of a new radical left. But Francis, like Obama, is a pragmatic centrist: he has not called for the wholesale ordination of women or questioned the role of celibacy in the priesthood or suggested that the Eucharist is merely symbolic. Conservatives believe Francis is dangerously liberal because he doesn't hyperventilate over divorce, because he's a tad more concerned with our cooking planet than homosexuality, and because he uncomfortably reminds them of the most ancient Christian teaching of them all: love thy neighbor.
40
@Kyle: "Love thy neighbor" reads to me like a suggestion to participate enthusiastically in community development. It smacks of socialism.
2
@Kyle
Your post is on target. Francis is challenging structural norms and that makes people uncomfortable. Francis appears to be thinking beyond the judge mental and more towards forgiveness and redemption.
He doesn’t support the narrative that poor people are poor because they don’t work hard enough or that people should be condemned for not meeting some artificial moral yardstick. He’s also making wealthier people uncomfortable because he’s preaching their responsibilities to them.
6
Kyle: You’ve offered critical insight to the discussion. I agree with you.
2
Seeing the Catholics loosen up on accepting ambiguity is good. I'm Episcopalian, so this attitude comes easy to me: Episcopalians can get godawful wishy-washy, but we sure keep away from dogmatism. Catholics, historically, have tried to get too much figured out: the eucharist, the hierarchy, what to make of Mary. They would benefit from more flexibility, accommodation of different points of view--and intellectual humility.
10
@Philip Holt: Henry VIII had to debunk the claim that the Pope knows what God thinks about divorce.
1
@Philip Holt
Being somewhat of a 'Zenist' has allowed me to remain Catholic without being bogged down by the rigid dogmatism of the Catholic Right. You are correct in that intellectual humility could go a long way toward 'healing' humanity v constantly attacking it.
Sometimes, evolution on contested moral issues is just plain
common sense in light of Gospel teachings. Episcopalians
have gotten it right on many issues. Christianity is not defaulted or trivialized in the Episcopal church.
10
Even with the creative accounting of counting lapsed as active members, the Catholic Church is hemorrhaging support. European churches are more museums than places of worship, and mass attendance in the United States is at an all time low, most dramatically among the young.
These are not cyclical changes. A hundred years ago, France was the Catholic Church's loyal bastion. Now it imports priests from Africa, because the seminaries are empty. Latin America is showing signs of decreased interest, as well as a rising tide of Evangelical mission.
The problem facing the Church is not schism, it is irrelevance. Maybe the sort of introspection that comes with schism is the cure.
26
@Thomas DuBois: "God" is plainly an imaginary being people exploit to make their own beliefs non-negotiable, and beyond reach of rational debunking.
1
So many years of anguish engaged in “much ado about nothing." How much better the world would be if people gave up on the afterlife to focus more on this life, because wouldn't finite life be valued more than an eternal one? And, the good that we would do to honor that love would be much larger, more urgent and more sincere since we would be helping people out of true empathy rather than for some self-interested reward.
The real schism has always been between humanism and religion. One husbands time and goodness, the other squanders both.
43
@Anam Cara
Yes, perfectly said!
To me, Mr Douthat's piece is like arguing whether the Spanish inquisition was better off with quill pens or reed pens. The question is why anyone in this day and age supports the Catholic church at all. Supporting each other in the here and now is a much better and more ethical choice.
39
@Anam Cara
Really excellent comment! Humanism vs religion is the problem in a nutshell.
6
@Anam Cara Read "The Book of James" by Suzy Smith
to have a better picture of life on the other side. I believe
you may find it of interesting.
Can’t come soon enough in my view; two thousand years of anti-humanism and shameless wealth accumulation is enough . The only question I have is what to do with Vatican City? I visited for the first and last time a couple weeks ago and was completely disgusted by the ostentatious display. I would have liked to see the Sistine Chapel but couldn’t bring myself to give them another tax-free Euro (cash only of course). Who are these people?
36
@Skinny J: The Roman Catholic Church was negotiated by the Nicene Council convened by a Emperor Constantine 3 centuries after the events that comprise the legend of Jesus.
1
Describing the Reformation in strictly theological terms is a gross misapprehension.
An important distinction must be made between the church as a spiritual body and the church as a temporal institution.
From an historical perspective, this distinction is made most obvious by the War of the League of Cognac, which pitted the pope Clement VII, allied with the king of France against Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V, and his mercenary army of German protestant landsknecht soldiers.
Charles V, who regarded himself both a hyper-Catholic and a member of two powerful terrestrial dynasties, the Spanish Trastamara and Hapsburg, as above pope Clement VII, a mere Medici.
The protestant troops of Charles V attacked, captured and sacked Rome and held the pope captive leaving the population severely reduced.
This was not a theological struggle. It was a struggle for terrestrial power.
One result, while the pope was held captive, was the refusal of the captive pope to approve of dissolution of the marriage of Henry VIII to Catherine of Aragon, who was the aunt of Charles, which resulted in the dissolution of the Catholic church in Britain.
The profound theological matter was resolved by the outcome of a terrestrial conflict.
9
Been mulling an annulment for my first marriage from the divorce in 1975, decided against it. Would be easily done but would hurt several people deeply.
I love the Catholic Church and I'm Catholic through and through but I refuse to wound others to satisfy an unnecessary rule so I can take communion in the church.
So I guess I'm done.
No real change in the church will come until it shows in the bank accounts.
16
@American2019
Dear American,
My mother, divorced in that very year, faced the same question. She sat down for long talks with our lovely and highly compassionate parish priest (who eventually was elevated to monseigneur), who unofficially encouraged her with the logic that communion is community. It is joining with the Lord and the body of faithful. It is a happy occasion, a family meal, not a gateway for the righteous. If she came to him for communion, she would receive it.
That's the good side of the Church. It's easy to lose sight of it.
9
For years I thought we would see an American schism - the separation of the ultra-conservative politicized SuperPAC that is today's Church, and the New American Catholic Church of What's Happening Now which would keep the Acts of Mercy and abandon most everything else.
And people like me would be left to choose. Or head for the Episcopalians.
But it isn't happening. The Bishops have a firm control on the Church, which is becoming more Pharisaical and less merciful, and which has turned to politics to force policy in areas in which the Bishops have failed to gain through moral teaching. We see abortion on the outs legally and through administrative action, and birth control soon to follow, and the expanded rights of LGBTQ people in jeopardy, based on a baker and his belief that a cake is a moral approval, a position five Catholic Justices supported, in a roundabout way.
So what happened to the schism? Well, most of us just self-schismed. Attendance at Mass is down; generation by generation our children are leaving the church. No one in my generation of my family still attends, my own children stay away. We were all strong, weekly Mass attending Catholics who came to the conclusion that the Church walked away from us.
Schism may still be on the horizon, if there are enough Catholics left to decide to divide.
71
@Cathy In the Episcopal Church, all are welcomed at
the table. Twenty five percent of the congregations of many Episcopal churches have come from Roman Catholic churches, including former priests and nuns.
We give thanks to God for his goodness to us and to all
people everywhere.
5
@James: I just put a sticky note with the address of the local Episcopal church on my computer screen. Thank you.
Some have told me I NEED to go to church...the hate I have for trump is off the charts. Maybe church will help. I haven't felt WORTHY to go with all of this hate I have.
6
@James It has been a strong consideration, believe me.
3
When I did go to church---many years ago--the music, reading of the bible, and sometimes the sermon---left me feeling good---I fully understood I was participating in huge myth, but, like Yoga, it worked for me. This all ended when I ended up on a small committee in the church--for which I did have professional training---but, in a very small way, found myself in the quicksand of institutional religion. My spiritual experience was transformed into a job---which the music, the scripture, and infrequent inspiring sermon could not overcome. Reading your articles on the Catholic church is exhausting---there is just too much intellectual effort put into a belief system that is supposed to lift you out of your intellectual mode for one hour or so. If I could make a suggestion---I now to Yoga on Sunday's--leaving each session with a relaxes mind, stretched out body, and yes, in a somewhat of a spiritual mode---Ross you should try it.
30
This is an interesting analysis. But why begin with Francis? Pope Benedict, an arch-conservative if ever there was one, was fairly explicit about his willingness to see the Church dwindle in size so as to become more "pure." And if the Church shrinks, all those people have to go somewhere - which sounds like a schism to me.
26
@Stephen J
I'm all for the Catholic Church shrinking and all for it becoming more pure. It needs to go. And what remains needs to get back to honesty and decency.
10
@AG
Hmm. Do you mean the honesty of the Borgias or the decency of the Spanish Inquisition? Or just the days when nobody dared to question the priests about their behavior?
2
When I was young (I'm lots older than Ross is now) it was said that when the encyclical or papal statement allowing birth control or divorce or married priests, it will begin "As the Church has always taught..."
16
Thanks, Mr. Douthat, for your always interesting and respectful thoughts on my Catholic Church.
In my lifetime, we've had the benefit of Pope St. John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, St. John Paul II, Benedict XIV, and now Pope Francis. It's hard to consider the contribution of John Paul I, isn't it, having served only 33 days? Perhaps he was a reminder from God to that the admonition "memento mori" applies to everyone.
I love my Church. I never forget, 'though, that my faith starts with my faith in God, and my understanding of what God wants from me. The Church can do what is wishes, and I'll be part of "making Church" to the extent I can, but ultimately, if there were no Church, there would still be God for me. Perhaps that's how I can appreciate what each Pope brings us through history-- theology, doctrine, pastoral care, change, stability.
Perhaps Pope Francis, a loving pastor, is what God thinks we need at this point in our history. As much as I respected Pope Emeritus Benedict and his theological focus, perhaps we needed Pope Francis to open our hearts and minds a bit. The Church changes very slowly. I thank God for change, and that it comes at a pace we can digest.
18
Mr. Douthat, you didn't mention that the conservative cardinals who despise Francis haven't broken away from Rome because in their disgruntled hearts they know that only a small number of folks would go with them, and that won't take the literal "jewels" of the Church with them.
18
@Tony Adams: I don't think you know why "disgruntled" cardinals have not left the Church. I prefer to think it is because they love and believe in the Church rather than the reasons you suggest.
6
@Graham Webb, While I wish you were right about that, I've personally known too many cardinals in my life to be allowed those rose colored glasses. Power is their oxygen, with rare exceptions.
1
Many Catholic converts, like Douthat, were attracted to Catholicism for the wrong reason. They thought the Church would be impervious to change, and are disillusioned when they find it's not. They need to read their Church history. Change is inevitable--it's not a threat.
174
@Diane You are so right. 1st century Christians would barely recognize the current RC church, not least because of the environment in which it operates. But they might have been more astonished by the Renaissance church whose Popes were warriors and decided which nations owned the rest of the globe. However the enduring rite of the Eucharist unites the church in time and space.
23
@Diane From what I've read, it seems to be a common failing among converts to any religion.
6
When an enclave of conservative Bishops can state overlook the issues you agree with and choose a political candidate that is anti abortion there is a problem. The conservative Catholic and conservative Evangelical alliance is an unholy one. Tolerance on issues that are relevant to the 21st Century and love they brother are replaced by a desire for absolute power and Church entering State where it doesn't belong. I was educated in Catholic schools but firmly believe babies are not born with original sin but with innocence that becomes distorted through strict adherence to doctrine that demands following the herd in order to reach the nebulous heaven.
28
@rhdelp The books of Randal Balmer are worth reading.
1
I do think the Episcopal Church in the US is a good example of a flexible church which has moved with the times. Ordained women, same-sex marriage, a variety of worship styles (something they always had). And guess what? They are also declining in membership, just like every other church, including evangelical ones. But perhaps universal adherence and attendance isn't the be all end all of Christianity.
43
@kms No, nor should it be. It's only about Jesus Christ and the rather simple message (based on the 10 commandments) he emphasized to humanity--Love God and love thy neighbor as thyself. He called out the religious hypocrites, who unfortunately have persisted (on steroids now) to modern times. He demonstrated humility, forgiveness, & compassion instead, over the adherence to man-made "rules". I struggle constantly with the Church that brought me to know Jesus Christ. But I don't take it out on Him. It's humanity that constantly attempts to ruin and/or distort His message.
23
Therea@ Bethesda :Best comment. Many have displaced this simple message of love one another with judgment. When Francis says whom am I to judge? I guess many cannot understand this.
12
@kms
The natural evolution of humans seems to be away from a strict belief in a deity as the guiding force of the universe and instead in science. Perhaps the way forward is the Episcopalian way of compromise because it lessens the intensity of religious belief. Preaching absolutism will never allow evolution of religious thought. As it now stands the Catholic Church's absolute doctrine has worked to cause child rape, letting poor women die from back alley abortions, overpopulation from allowing no birth control, the marginalization of LGBT, people forced to remain in terrible unions, etc.
4
I'm very grateful for the wonderful paintings, sculpture, architecture, music, etc that came into being in the service of the Catholic Church. It is truly the patrimony of humanity.
And I'm very grateful and inspired by the millions of selfless Catholic lay people who have devoted their lives to ministering to the poor, the sick, the homeless.
But I do not want, and in fact mightily resent, the intrusion of the Catholic Church into my personal life and my rights.
147
I am always curious to understand why science, education, and medicine are never mentioned as patrimony of the Catholic Church. The Big Bang theory was formulated by a Belgian priest. The founder of genetics was a monk. Copernicus was a devout Catholic and sponsored by the church. Even the theory of evolution was study by the church first and it is accepted by the church. Western scientific advances were started by the church. A simple google search will provide plenty of examples. Yes, I know about Galileo, who was also sponsored by the church but came at a bad moment in the history of the church. At the end, the church published all his works. The church educated the poor and tended to the sick. And founded great universities. My guess is that contributions to art are more difficult to erase from history because you can see and listen to them today, but the other contributions are not on your face and therefore easier to hide.
25
@3Rs Thank you for bringing that up. When the ranters start in on saying that religion is anti-science, I feel like reminding them that (with some notable lapses) scientific thought has long been sponsored and promulgated by the Church and its institutions.
14
@3Rs
"Yes, I know about Galileo, who was also sponsored by the church but came at a bad moment in the history of the church."
Accounts of Galileo tend to leave out that his trial happened during the Thirty Years War, the bloodiest religious war in European history. Paranoia among religious leaders about challenges to their "authority" was rampant. Think about McCarthyism in the 1950s and multiply it by a hundred..
15
I find the concern over schism to be fascinating. The Jewish religion, that predates Catholicism by close to 2,000 years handles the division rather efficiently. Most organized popular Christian religions in the US are dealing with the issue. Most of them are being affected by the LBGT issue. However, the Catholic church has very many issues and like their most serious issue they have been swept under the table or looked the other way. People are more educated and informed today, and in many circles, independent thought is not a sin. Today, division in thoughts and feelings has never been stronger in our blue vs red society.
12
Mr. Douthat worries about a "still-more-liberal pope" than Francis. But is Francis a liberal pope?
Does Francis support the ordination of women? No.
Does Francis support local control of church property? No.
Does Francis support the marriage of priests? No.
And even if Francis did answer "yes" to any of these questions, that wouldn't make him liberal: Many conservative faiths have been able to answer "yes" to ALL THREE of these questions for centuries.
My conclusions: (1) Francis is not a liberal pope. (2) Douthat is not a trustworthy columnist.
75
@Dan Styer. Francis is a Marxist and a Jesuit. That’s a bad combination. There’s a reason why a Jesuit, up until Francis, was never Pope. I guess the powers that be in the Vatican forgot that truism. The Catholic Church is corrupt. They make their money now from NGOs with the immigration racket. They are now undermining American sovereignty for cash.
4
Alison Cheek died September 1st. She, along with ten other women, were ordained Episcopal priests in 1972, the first women to be ordained in the church. It caused an uproar, a schism, that has not totally subsided, with each subsequent effort to achieve justice and bring the church into this century adding to the voices of discontent and division, a division that Pope Benedict attempted to exploit, reaching a breaking point with the ordination of gays. Entire congregations left the Episcopal Church to form Anglican Churches, the latter more in line with the unchanging social views of the discontented, not unlike the social division in America today that is male-dominated. Mother Cheek was not burned at the stake for her heresy, as was the practice for punishing heresy in times past. The Episcopal Church has survived the leap into this century, and today is stronger than ever. The hide-bound views in today's Catholic Church will be its undoing, as the male clerical reactionaries do not reflect an increasingly female-dominated laity. Indeed, many discontented female Catholics are finding a home in the Episcopal Church, an irony of Pope Benedict's attempt to exploit the division in the Episcopal Church.
49
Stronger than ever? The Episcopal Church is in free fall. Most congregations have fewer than 100 people and median Sunday attendance is 53. And this is according to the church’s own statistics.
To put that in perspective, my small Catholic parish has more than 53 people at Mass on weekday mornings at 7:30. And there are eleven other larger churches within a fifteen minute drive.
Is my Church also in trouble? Yes. Our attendance is down but not to the point where it is an existential threat to ministry. Have our leaders sinned beyond belief? Definitely. Is leaving the solution? For some, yes. I pray for them. But not for me: instead, it is time to help clean up the mess and move forward.
3
The most destructive element of any religion is brittleness. The entire animal kingdom, including humans, has been a product of evolution. Paleontologists have sketched out the the complicated mesh of changes and interconnections that has brought us to tis point. Religion is like the one of the structural features of society that endures through oral tradition and sacred texts. It's the glue that holds different human tribes together. As society changes and the conditions of our mutual existence change, religions also need to find adaptations that both keeps the unifying elements and meets news conditions like ethical and moral concerns that humans have never faced before. Religions have no choice but to adapt or atrophy on the human vine. The pope is right. Schism has always beed with the Church. Maybe it should be embraced rather than feared. That might be a sign of health rather than decay.
11
@Dan
This is a notion that should be developed further. What is schism to religious institutions is a normal process elsewhere in society. Example: corporations get too big to appreciate new ideas. Their more creative employees break off to form new businesses to exploit their ideas more efficiently. We should be wary of demands to preserve unity for its own sake. The Catholic Church has been trying to undo the Reformation for generations. Heaven help us if it should ever gain control of our media outlets. We'd have something like the Chinese Communist party running things.
2
I married a first gen Irish Catholic, one of seven from a parochial school family. She went to a Catholic college. Our children were raised Catholic (a condition of marrying) though as adults they now have nothing to do with the Church.
My f-i-l was not thrilled with his oldest daughter marrying a Protestant. We have 40 years in now. Four of my wife's six siblings that married have gotten divorced. Only three married Catholics (including the lesbian - both times). Her partner/spouse would like their child to be baptized Catholic - she has strong objections.....
I am glad that my wife's father died a while back. I don't see him handling a gay daughter and grandchild. My mother in law finally came to terms with everything - with no help from the church.
My experiences in dealing with the church have not been good. A priest briefing us before a baptism seemed drunk and went into a completely inappropriate anti-abortion rant.
My wife still goes to mass regularly but has her own issues with Catholicism. Less than half of her family would call themselves 'practicing'.
Engaged in power struggles, the Church's leaders have forgotten the parishioners and the God they are supposed to serve. Their failure to deal with the abuse issue has left many disgusted and disillusioned, pushing more out of the church.
As far as celibacy goes, it seems that some older priests believe 'If I had to do it, so do others' instead of even looking rationally at the issue.
66
@cynicalskeptic
"Forgotten the parishioners and the God they are supposed to serve".
Problem here, if there is a God, he/she has been made in the image of man and not in the likeness of God. No one knows the likeness of God.
It was human beings that defined God and what pronouncements he/she would make.
25
@esp
Look at the terminology. For Catholics, the hierarchy is "the Church" and the worshippers come in from outside. In Protestantism, the group of believers is "the Church" and the clergy are there to serve them.
2
Ross Douthat's lens in viewing the Catholic Church is fundamentally political (liberals vs. conservatives, right v. left) and clerical (bishop v. bishop). This is an excessively limited point of view; independent of where one stands theologically. He reports on institutional, intellectual nuances. Yet the Church at its best (and yes there is plenty of the best that does not get reported) is about healing wounds, lifting hearts, and tending to the needs of the poor. That Church is wide, deep, and NOT simply the domain of clerics and theologians.
53
@HPower You have written a beautiful, thoughtful insight. It reflects the way I once felt, before realizing that our efforts to heal wounds and help the poor would be permanently hamstrung by the clericalism and obsessive dogmatism of the Roman hierarchy. There are many ways to help the poor, and sadly the Catholic way is no longer the most beneficial.
17
I was raised in a Catholic school system with nuns for my Primary education, and high school at an all boys Marist Brothers High School. I was told I could become a priest at a retreat for senior high school students. At 17, I had no idea, what I wanted to be or my future direction. I did not choose a vacation in the priesthood.
Fast forward over five decades, and the Catholic Church in Australia has worked to protect abusive clergy, while attacking victims of sexual abuse from Catholic clergy. I do not recognise the Church I had as a young boy, to the protection racket it continued to run for some abusive clergy.
My sister told me recently, that if I missed the normal train home from school, my mother was concerned I may become a victim of clergy abuse. Mothers knew in the mid 1960’s in Australia, yet the Church continued to try and protect abusive clergy, more than assist young victims of clerical abuse from Catholic Clergy.
My faith has been shattered by the response of the leaders of the Catholic Church, to the abuse their clergy inflicted on thousands of young, vulnerable, innocent children.
29
To me the phenomenon we're witnessing has less the character of a schism and more that of the dying of an empire. And all earthly empires (which the Church started to become early in its history) eventually die. Good riddance and requiescat in pace.
51
I was raised in a very traditional Roman Catholic family. Now, I am an ordained minister in a mainline Protestant church who has not sent in his change of address form to the Vatican.
From my perspective, the conservatives since Vatican II have been focusing on preserving the institution and the doctrine developed over the centuries. Meanwhile, the liberals are more interested in exploring the call of the Jesus to, “bring good news to the poor”, in today’s context.
Jesus, a peasant Palestinian Jew, was often in conflict with the religious authorities of his day. He along with the prophets before him, were not interested in preserving and protecting religious order and government.
I am more interested in exploring where Jesus is calling us today than any institutional questions.
As long as there is hope that the Roman Catholic church might be moved by the Spirit to become a place where all are welcome and where questions become more important than answers I won’t bother to fill in that change of address card.
53
"Some years ago, when I was younger and somewhat more excitable, I wrote a series of essays about Pope Francis’s liberalizing efforts,..."
"Some years ago," Mr. Douthat? Francis has only been pope since 2013. If you regard six years as "some years ago," than you are even younger than you think.
And -- as far as Francis is concerned -- I think the voicing of dissent and the debate about issues that the Catholic Church is now having with itself is indicative of a church that is wrestling itself back into health, rather than that of one headed towards schism.
70
Whether it is Catholic or any other faith when it turns into an organised sect with a set of rules, rituals, hierarchy, resources, and following schism along doctrinal, ideological, and political lines is bound to occur.
10
The Catholic Church has been in de facto schism since Vatican II whose purpose was to confirm Modernist, i.e., Protestant theology as the way forward.
The result has been a catastrophe. The Church is now in a death spiral of most Catholics no longer believing or following its tenets, a fast declining membership, few vocations to the priesthood, etc.
Pope Francis is only accelerating the decline as he steers the Church towards a Godless Church of New World Order whose focus is on Man and his environment.
10
@Michael Dowd
Correlation is not causality. There is a decline in all western countries in church affiliation -- not just Catholic. All, including the most punitive, narrow, patriarchal of fundamentalist churches. If you were rational you would look for the real reasons.
3
Many of us raised in the Catholic Church, included a lot of clerics, don’t know what means to be a catholic and consequently how to live and to act as catholic, because we don’t believe in God anymore in our deep down. In my opinion this lack of Faith feeds the fears and divisions among people who want still to be Catholic. Does God exists? This is the real question.
12
@Flavius
Naw. Far more people believe in God than are religiously affiliated. Check the statistics. It is the church institutions which have failed, not faith. In my opinion.
23
@kms
Most lay people cannot even clearly tell you what they mean by "God". So it means one thing to person 1 and something completely different to person 2 (hence so many now report that they are "spiritual"- whatever that means).
A significant majority of people simply go through life without thinking much about anything. So reporting "believe in God" becomes a nonsense question till you first define what they are being asked about.
Most will confuse even the basic difference between "some higher power" and "prayer answering and judging" power where there is a big difference between the two now, isn't it?
3
@Flavius says, "Does God exists? This is the real question." That offers only speculation, not dialog." A more fruitful question, one that that tests the foundation of everything under discussion and points a way to resolution of all argument, is, "Do you have verifiable evidence for the existence of a god?"
No evidence = no argument = no church = no more angels on the head of a pin disputes = no more theist nonsense.
2
The important schism has already happened, between the laity and the leadership of the church. For example, many people who were raised Catholic are using birth control and/or getting divorced, choosing marriage over the priesthood, and supporting heretical ideas like gay rights. Furthermore, no one has the power that the cardinals of New York and Boston used to have. As a person who is highly skeptical of organized religion, I look forward a schism, which is probably why the Catholic leadership is working so hard to avert one.
47
@NeilG I recommend that you read Cardinal Newman's "On Consulting the Faithful on Matters of Doctrine" and then reconsider your opinions expressed here. Newman knew more about religious history than even many scholars today. Essentially his argument is that sometimes bishops are all wrong and lay people are right.
4
@NeilG But this has always been so and the Church has always known.
"The partway-liberalization of the Francis era has encouraged the church’s progressives to push further, while many conservatives have been flung into intellectual crisis"
A classic study of coup attempts in South America concluded that this is exactly how power shifts.
Weakening of a hard line, small concession, encourages those sympathetic to changes to have hope for more. At the same time, it frightens those who hold the old line.
At some point, the hopes either grow in advocates and demands to reach a critical point, or not. If they reach that critical point, the opposition panics, and its panic is seen. The uncommitted middle then shifts, to stay on the winning side. Some of the hard liners also give it up and move to the winning side.
The change comes from those who are not pushing, and includes those who suddenly give up.
The Catholic Church shows no signs of such momentum building, to shift a vast middle, to so panic the hardliners that some jump ship.
It is just simmering. The Pope seems to have a good eye for the heat to hold it all on simmer. Perhaps that is in part because of his background in South America.
10
As I attend church and look at all the other grey heads, I am constantly amazed at the lack of young adults in the congregation. Perhaps, it is due to dogmatic priests that fail to recognize young people of today are independent thinkers who do not necessarily adhere to the strict construction of the faith of their parents. They typically are looking for a more liberal path than the fire and brimstone one sees in the conservative ideology.
Conservative American priests and bishops are nothing more than a product of the capitalist society they espouse. To most, catering to the wealthy and the elite of society means access. Access means more power and money in their coffers --- not to mention prestige. The real bottom line is most would much rather play golf and hob nob with the country club crowd than minister to the homeless or visit the sick.
The schism is here, it is the old ways verses that of the educate, socially aware and progressive young --- one only needs to look at the number of young American men or women seeking a religious vocation to see the growing rift in the Church. English as a second language is a fact of life in the American church --- blame it on past and present conservative leadership.
France is a “down to earth” realist and we’re all better for it.
31
In my experience it is quite the opposite. Have you been to an old rite mass recently? You are tripping over strollers constantly. Young people want a clear choice, a visible identity, a timeless message. I am afraid that what you’re saying is merely a projection of what the baby boom generation believes to be interesting for ‘young people’.
8
@KD Lawrence It will disappoint many that the greying of churchgoing populations has little to do with differences over social issues du jour and much more to do with a moving away from belief in any God at all.
The decline of the Church will continue not just as people move to more liberal faiths but as people leave faith altogether.
28
@Cornelis, Old Rite Masses are a teeny tiny percentage of Masses. Your experience is of a minute section of the population of churchgoers.
2
The conflicts within the American church seem to be echoing the left v right battles within American politics. Much of the same Conservative vs Liberal, Good Guy vs Bad Guy approach and rhetoric are being applied.
The Church and the faith aren't supposed to be approached like secular politics. We should be approaching things with discernment, patience and love not tribal fighting, nastiness and ill will.
18
@Chris...Cats fight, dogs fight, siblings fight, spouses fight, neighbors fight, etc, etc. To suggest that clergy should not fight is absurd. Fighting R us, and them, too.
2
I love my Catholic faith and there is nothing that will ever shake my belief. I feel so blessed to be a part of a faith of 1.3 billion members. The Church will never see its demise as people need something that gives meaning to their lives. There is so much uncertainty today but the Church is a constant. I have found it has assisted me in good times and bad, with the highs and the lows and never disappoints. It brings peace and joy to a turbulent world and I have made it the center of my life. It keeps me grounded and as a friend once mentioned keeps one on the straight and narrow. As I age, it has become even more important to me. It is a gift and one in which I will always cherish.
11
@KMW
Good for you. I hope that you keep deriving the strength and benefits you are getting. I also hope that this does not lead you to listen to your religious leaders and support politicians that want to inject this faith and dogma into the lives of other people that don't feel this way. If so, then we're at war.
17
Are you saying that those of who are not Catholic don’t have meaning in our lives? How insulting!
3
@Techieguy: WELL SAID!
2
I just returned from Dubai which is a Muslim country and was fortunate to attend Mass two Sundays while there. It was overflowing with worshippers who were devout and very serious in their practice. Most were from the Philippines and India with a smattering of Africans. I was one of the few Caucasians and it was heartwarming to experience this wonderful Mass. The priests gave a wonderful homily which was relevant to the people. I was impressed with the message and they prayed for the Muslim leaders of the country.
I wish the Masses in New York were filled with such enthusiasm and joy as the one in Dubai. Everyone participated and sang out. I loved Dubai and one of the highlights was attending this wonderful Church. I had to take a taxi to get to the Church but it was well worth the effort. It was very enlightening and was so happy to have had the opportunity to worship with such devoted Catholics.
39
Any schism is a good schism. Religion has far too much control over government and lives, including here in the US.
The United Methodist church in which I was raised is facing one next year.
Good.
46
Schism? I think not. What great dogmatic issue is in controversey? There are serious problems with the plumbing, but nothing which would arise to the level of past challenges.
5
@jackinnj
There are several issues that have become non-starters for people in the U.S. to continue in the Catholic faith tradition or to consider joining the Catholic Church.
1) the ban on contraception
2) the refusal to ordain women
3). the ban on divorce and refusal to allow divorced Catholics to receive the sacraments
4) the refusal to recognize gay marriage as a sanctified union
The hierarchy of the global Catholic Church may not care about any of this but membership in the U.S. will continue to dwindle until there is meaningful discussion aimed at finding solutions.
25
I prefer the word "traditionalist" over "conservative" - the clergy (and laity) who prefer to stick with their existing understanding of religious teaching. Tradition is good... most of the time.
But of course, the main job of the pontiff is to "teach" - sometimes teaching new ideas - which may shake up some people whose fixed ideas are inconsistent with true Catholic doctrine and values (perhaps by accident, because traditionalists don't always recognize when they are misapplying what they learned in their youth). Most "liberals" are not eager to cause a schism, but instead want everyone to be open to new points of view.
8
I do not think there will ever be a schism in the Catholic Church. People will believe what they want to and behave accordingly. There may be parishes that are conservative or liberal and people will choose the one that fits their ideology. In Manhattan, it is already happening and people know which Church to attend if they want a more progressive or right leaning point of view. Catholics will pick and choose which tenets to follow as they have been doing for sometime now.
I am a conservative Catholic so I go to the Catholic Church that is more conservative in its teachings. It seems to be more difficult today to find parishes that satisfy everyone's beliefs. I just follow my conscience as I have always done. We are only human and God understands this.
9
If you think all the conservative bishops and archbishops are retired, you're wrong. Currently, in Portland,Oregon an ultra conservative archbishop is doing his best to tear the heart out of a vital, dynamic parish because they didn't comply with his orders to change their music and inclusive language. He has gone so far as to install a priest who threw out the banners and vestment parishioners had made, and who 'fired' the musicians (all parishioners. This priest brought in 'ringers'. ultra conservative Catholics who scream and berate people who have been there since childhood. I attended a meeting with a friend who has been a parishioner for 30 years and was personally threatened by one of them when I stood between him an a man he was advancing on with his fists clenched.
The church has run a dining hall, known throughout the city, for nearly 50 years. The priest refuses to have anything to do with it, and the archbishop tried to to hand it off to Catholic Charities. Of course he insists the fact that the church and the dining hall sit on a large piece of land in a rapidly gentrifying neighborhood has nothing to do with his decisions.
Sadly, he has succeeded in driving out most of the previous parishioners, so he will probably get his way within the year. Most of the now attend another church in a newly gentrified part of the city, and they expect it will be his next target.
40
Liberal Catholics are at least willing to discuss those issues Douthat identifies -- conservative Catholics not at all. Which springs, of course, from the conservatives' completely rigid orthodoxy in all matters of faith and morals. Difficult to enter into conversation with those whose opening statement is "case closed."
87
@JTS
As long as the Catholic Church is around there will be no equality for everyone and straight males will be paramount. That is their doctrine from 1,000's of years ago. It needs to change because it is inherently anti-human but when one preaches absolutism no wonder its adherents cannot think otherwise. Humans evolve and the Church does not want anything but tradition and logically it is anti-human.
3
As a practicing liberal Catholic, the schism I fear is that people like me will break from Catholics who can vote for people with terrible ethical and moral flaws, all in the name of abortion. It seems to be the overarching theme of what the church says and does these days. My 3 daughters were baptized and confirmed but no longer have anything to do with the church. They fervently believe that their bodies are not to be controlled by governments. I am with them. I want my church to champion social justice.
549
Ask one of your daughters to put one of her kidneys for sale on eBay and you will see how quickly the government will claim control of her body. It is illegal to sell your own body parts. The government can and will have control of our bodies when the government (which is us) determines the actions we are taking are morally wrong and destructive to the person. Selling your body parts is still considered morally wrong by “we the people”. Abortion is not considered morally wrong, or too difficult to morally judged.
3
@D Marcot. About six or seven months ago, the Times reported that in some areas of the world priests were raping and impregnating nuns. The church arranged abortions (forced?) for the nuns. Hypocrisy.
17
@Kb Once a month we now say a prayer to Michael the Archangel to prevent the devil from corrupting us. If I hadn't read about it in the NYT I wouldn't have known what it was meant to address. It boggles my mind that someone thought this was enough.
3
Protestant denominations such as Presbyterian and Baptist have different lines and are still doing fine. Maybe it’s just as well for the Catholic Church to let the schisms create subdivisions where parishioners and clergy alike can follow what rings true to them.
10
@NM It’s too bad that we may have to think “schism.” What the Church needs to do is evolve and meet the needs of the 21st Century. The fact is that Catholicism is a patriarchal anachronism, stuck in the past ideologies beginning centuries and centuries ago.
13
The Church would be a stronger force in the world if the hierarchy and members focused less on the "isms" and more on loving thy neighbor as oneself.
98
Comet, would that include loving every baby in the womb into life?
There's nothing in this article that reflects real issues that need to be addressed in order for the church to survive: opening up priesthood to women, allowing priests to marry, getting rid of archaic contraception band. Gen X and millenials have left the church in droves. All this worry about schisms is counterproductive.
220
@cindyk EXACTLY, those are the issues that the church should be talking about.
12
As someone who married into the Catholic church, the schism I see is more stark and less well described by your article: there is a pastoral and spiritual side to Catholicism and it's church community that is not well supported by the hierarchy; the other orientation is ambitious and political and well supported by church hierarchy. What I have observed over a lifetime is a steady erosion of faith in the church due to it's overwhelming interest in politics over pastoral needs.
141
@Don
Right on the money and well put
4
Thank you Ross,
The USA will need Francis' Church, here in Quebec the Catholic Church ruled until 50 years ago. We had no schism we are a zealous secular humanist society deciding if religion is a quaint relic of the past or a danger to the peace and security of our liberal democracy. We wrestle with nationalism and exclusive and inclusive and I am grateful we accept there is no God or gods in our debates and our architects can turn churches into condos, restaurants and shopping malls.
21
@Montreal Moe The very communitarian spirit of Quebec is the direct result of its RC tribal past.
1
@Snip
You are of course correct. I grew up in Quebec and I only wish way back in the early 60s the USA has a leader like Rene Levesque to counter the neoliberal and theocratic establishments. Levesque was a journalist who would have known that the 1964 GOP convention was a plot to destroy the almost 200 year old evolution that made America great.
1965 was the beginning of the decline of America's middle class and it was no accident. We will know when America is back on track. Three of Washington's airport will be named Schwerner, Goodman and Chaney and the mention of Reagan will be greeted by spitting on the ground.
3
I left for 15 years, but was led back by the spirit of love and mystery. Underline mystery, including all my conservative RC friends.
From my after-Mass brunch bunch, all Republicans, I experience the power of Community deeper than politics, that provides an existential affirmation that good, educated, traveled people can see the world in a way I cannot fathom. They really do support Trump. They want the all-male cultic priesthood.
Talk about mystery. But they also serve others, and pray for all.
As I believe that the “Communion of Saints “ includes all humans, I’m with Francis.
16
I stay in the Catholic Church because it connects me to my ancestors who were devoted Catholics. But it really doesn’t resonate with me for a variety of reasons and I don’t feel like I belong. It’s kind of like being Irish and Polish, but being born and raised in Cleveland three generations out.
42
@Jon If you find a parish that is spiritually alive and actively involved in helping the less fortunate, who are all around us, you might feel more attached. We are called to action and community, not just rituals.
18
@Jon
I feel ya Jon. My sentiments exactly. Irish-American in my case and I feel if I left the Church I would be in a way betraying my parents and grandparents and on and on, who struggled under the boot of the Brits to remain faithful down through the years.
3
When Pope Benedict was in office, conservatives criticized liberal Catholics for not following the Pope's directives. Pope Benedict was very big on pomp and ceremony and minutia of doctrine. They didn't think it was right to question the Pope who is following St. Peter in a sacred position.
Now that Pope Francis, who was elected to the same sacred position, and shows more liberal thinking, including have older married men act as priests, they are up in arms. No longer is it a problem to criticize a sitting Pope. They can't have it both ways. Either the Pope is the supreme leader of the church and should be followed because he is sitting in Peter's chair, or he is not. They can't choose based on his directives.
BTW- Pope Francis almost beat out Pope Benedict in that election. His living at the Vatican and speaking out is only encouraging a schism.
188
@S.L. It is a universal of “Conservatives” the subject of Jesus’ warning “(you are)the first cast out the beam out of thine own eye;
and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.” “Conservatives” in American politics are little different from fascists. What Catholic “Conservatives must consider is “What would Jesus do?” Does any Catholic imagine that Jesus would cherish anyone who supports Trump?
13
I was raised in the Catholic Church and loved the lessons communicated in the scriptures: "Love your neighbor as yourself," "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me," "Blessed be the poor, they shall inherit the earth" etc. etc. Now I see that many of the Catholics with whom I learned these doctrines are now raging anti-immigrant Trumpers. Bring on the schism.
720
@PJP Raging is the key word. And Trumper is the key characterization.
Trump has given permission- no, he has instructed his supplicants- to tell the non-followers that you are superior to them.
Be vocal, tell them, to their faces, that Republicans are superior patriots; MAGA Catholics are superior to Pope Francis Catholics. Of this, they are certain. And certainty is also the opposite of faith.
And, now that they've said it to our faces- it can't be unsaid. The relationship is going to take a long time to heal.
I'm a liberal, social-justice, observant, Catholic raised and educated in Jesuit schools. I try to be charitable, but to those who somehow believe theirs is a higher form of religion than mine, you are wrong.
151
@PJP I'm in the same boat. It is often difficult for me to share a pew with not only rabid Trumpists, but a majority of the faithful who see no reason to speak out against the assaults on the most basic principles of truth and Christian beliefs carried out by this administration and its followers. This includes the majority of clergy to say nothing of the bishops who show a remarkable lack of leadership. I see a good part of the American Church still obsessed with abortion and denying the realities of diverse sexuality. Its beginning to look more and more like the Universal Church is for some, a death cult devoted to the preservation of outmoded white culture and hegemony. If that church continues, I want no part of it.
85
@GK I left the church long ago because of its treatment of women as second class citizens. The current culture of American Catholics gives me no reason to ever return.
56
On reason, I like to read Ross Douthat is his uncanny knack for digging up paleologisms, like sedevacantism, to inform his readers.
The word is a useful reminder that many of the Pope's opponents (not Douthat to the extent he is an "opponent"are the equivalent of "birthers". Instead of "he can't be President because he doesn't look like me" it's "he can't be Pope because he doesn't think like me".
Best to think of such folk as mentalvacantists. If schism comes, it will be post Francis and the divide will marked by whether the protagonists give primacy to the Sermon on The Mount or enforcing doctrinal purity. Like choosing between a Good Samaritan and a Pharisee.
115
@Frank McNeil "Mentalvacantists." Thank you. I have to start using that word.
4
your correct about one thing, no one is in the schism. The slow-mo liberalization of the church that you depict as one the Germans will patiently wait for sounds almost like a commitment to a historical dialectic - which, if I can trust what I've read of the German Church: that it is essentially Marxist in character sounds like a relatively safe haven analysis. Any rude or rash schismatic action on their part would be foolish, since history and ideology ( a theological historical materialism) is on their side. Currently, I think most the talk about a schism in the church is designed to sell books. I don't see American Catholics as unified with respect to the faith, and with a growing Latino population the church in America should have something of a growth spurt from the bottom-up as opposed to a schism from the top down. However, with the lack of fervor most American's have with respect to Catholicism in general - any attempt at a schism would be so minute that it would probably fail to qualify as a sect.
6
I left the Church decades ago because a friend had been molested from the ages of 8 to 12 by two Catholic priests. One priest refused to allow my mother to marry my stepfather because she was divorced. The priests ended up in different parishes who I believe were unaware of their proclivities. I harbor no love for the church. It is not supposed to get involved in politics (separation of church and state and all that) but it ignores that. The church should be taxed. It is no longer one room buildings. It is a vast empire. I will not be going back EVER.
495
@Sharon Conway
Very very sorry about your childhood friend— the crime the two priests committed against your friend is absolutely inexcusable and indefensible! I do hope that both priests were finally held fully accountable! For the record, the priest in your mother’s case should have referred your mother and her fiancé to the formal procedure used by the Church to determine whether or not her first marriage was valid under Church law. If found invalid, they could have freely married in the Church. I remind myself that the Church is not simply the sinful “priests” or the “bishops” who break the law — the Church is far bigger than those criminals; it also includes hundreds of millions of individuals and families who love Jesus Christ and strive to love others as Jesus loved them.
14
Mr. Douthat, your article mentions celibacy of the priesthood as a hot button issue, and clearly it is. However, there is no true biblical authority whatsoever for the proposition that priests must be, or should be, celibate. Jesus never addressed that issue. Furthermore, the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy explicitly deal with the requirements for the priesthood, and since Jesus was a Jew who preached to Jews, his ideas about the Priesthood would have conformed to the old testament norms. If he objected to those requirements, he would have said so, and he didn't.
There are many rules in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, so there was not complete sexual freedom for priests by any means. However, even the high priest, who entered the Holy of Hollies, could still marry and could copulate with another person, provided he complied with many strict rules.
https://thetorah.com/purity-of-priests-contamination-through-marriage/
46
@Anthony
The Church already has married priests in its “Eastern Rites” (some ethnic churches with Orthodox trappings mostly in Eastern Europe).
It also accepts married priests who were initially ordained as Lutherans, Orthodox, or Anglicans and then converted.
I don’t see married priests in the mainstream Church as a theological heresy.
28
@Anthony
No one representing the Church should ever make the non-biblical argument that the Bible forbids priests from marrying. After all it is an historical fact that Peter was married. However, a Catholic can claim that the clergy celibacy rule is part of a Church discipline imposed after nearly a millennium, and as such, a rule that can be changed or modified. Many Catholics believe that rule should be changed to allow married clergy.
16
@Anthony: And Peter, traditionally regarded as the first pope, was married. The Bible tells of Jesus healing Peter's mother-in-law, and the only way to acquire a mother-in-law is to get married.
3
Of course, the Catholic church in 1054 was the original schismatic. Rome sought at that time to impose a fundamental change in the Creed (the "filioque", which in effect stood the trinity on its point) without an ecumenical council, which was the time-honored way of settling such theological disputes (there had been 7 in the first thousand years of the church). Instead pope Leo IX chose to excommunicate the bishops of the east, who promptly excommunicated him in return, resulting in Rome's separation from the original church. In time, with the Protestant reformation, Rome reaped the whirlwind that it had sown. Schism begat schism, until today there are nearly 30,000 Protestant sects, all of them the grandchildren of Rome's rejection of the original church. Nothing comparable happened in the original Orthodox church of the east. That is why thousands of Protestants, seeking the original church, have in recent years converted to Orthodoxy.
37
@Luke
A great, succinct little history reminder for us. Thanks.
2
@Luke
Aren’t churches classy? The filoque clause? Who really cares? It’s about power and money. Control is what matters.
2
According to Catholic self-image and self-interpretation, such disagreements and disputes should not happen. Since they do happen, the Catholic self-image as being the guardian of God's eternal and unchanging truth is not accurate, and pretending that it is is a lie.
God's eternal and unchanging truth can exist, but it does us no good and much harm because we cannot agree on what it is. As a Ding an sich, it is unknowable and unreachable; all we have is the truth as it exists for finite and imperfect beings, and this truth changes, as the history of the Church clearly demonstrates.
The Catholic self-image is like the Emperor's new clothes; all praise an agreement and an authority that all know does not exist. The idea that this is what God wants and expects from us belongs to the Devil and is his greatest achievement, since the way that true believers deal with heretics is to gain power and silence them so their corruption will not corrode the faithful.
It is a measure of the power of God that an organization based on the evil of pride in being the only one with the truth nevertheless has brought much good into the world.
10
It's interesting to me that I find that I do not care anymore. Arguments about nothing important. Sixteen years of rules and questions and dicing and slicing in religion classes is as nothing at all. No guilt either. but maybe one has to be 85 to arrive at this Truth.
506
@saurus
I call myself 'RC Retired ' having left that fantasy group when I was about 14.
Every time I read another absurdity about RC actions, I am thankful to have seen reality so early.
Latest absurdity:
An RC school in Nashville TN had the JK Rowling Harry Potter books removed. Turns out the priest in charge had hired an EXORCIST (yup, an exorcist, you read right) to review the books. After doing so, the exorcist said the books are dangerous because young kids could learn how to cast evil spells from them!
This happened late summer this year, 2019.
So much for Roman Catholocism.
98
@saurus. Catholicism does seem to be full of fantasy, punishment, broken people who desire authoritarians to tell them what to think and believe. Raised in a very Catholic household, I saw reality at a pretty young age.
34
@Sand Nas I noticed that. Absurd.
11
I love it when Ross gets into the weeds of Catholicism; I find it interesting in the same way I would someone pointing out to me the intricacies of the social hierarchy among meerkats or the inner workings of minor league hockey--it's a tour of a completely different universe that I am not conversant with, but could find intriguing for the reason, mainly, that I don't have to be concerned with it beyond that curiosity, let alone be part of it. In other words, it's not going to affect me--really, at all.
That having been said, however, I can't shake the sneaking suspicion that the schisms people who ARE interested in these universes should be far more concerned with are those between believers in general and the growing cadre of people who have allegiance to no religion, who become agnostic or atheist and who move away from the creed and dogma, instead opting to develop a world view and morality based on a combination of science and humanism. To me, that seems a bigger problem for various religions than whether there are ecclesiastical schisms.
And to be sure, unlike a lot of the more reactionary religious, I do not think of "science" and "humanism" pejoratively, and think a trend towards them is likely to have more positive ramifications than the status quo, or any religious splittings.
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@Glenn Ribotsky-it's a tour of a completely different universe that I am not conversant with, but could find intriguing for the reason, mainly, that I don't have to be concerned with it beyond that curiosity, let alone be part of it. In other words, it's not going to affect me--really, at all.
Right on! People are simply trying to work their way to the "gift of life" they didn't request and now have to figure out!
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@Glenn Ribotsky
To a first approximation, I'm fully in agreement with you: as a non-Catholic, I have no more than a voyeur's interest in Catholicism's inner machinations.
But. To the extent that Catholicism still has influence in the world in general and American society in particular, I'd suggest that all of us do indeed have an interest in where that establishment lands on various issues.
For example, if the Pope dragged the church into accepting that abortion was OK (I'm not holding my breath in anticipation!), wouldn't that change the nature of the debate in America, at least a little?
Or, more generally, having a pope with a relatively liberal worldview certainly feels helpful to liberal causes at large, even if it's only for moral support; conversely, a reactionary pope represents a problem, maybe minor, maybe not, for a liberal agenda.
So, maybe we do care about how the argument goes. But of course, that doesn't mean I can't view its machinations with some amusement.
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@Glenn Ribotsky
My view of the teachings of Christ is totally consistent with science and humanism. Much of the liturgy and regulatory practices come from centuries of Church bureaucracy.
Ross Douthat ought write a few columns in which he talks only of the teachings of Christ and how they directly relate to the matters of potential schism that he discusses.
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Years ago, I would have abhorred the word, schism. How could the one, true, church fall apart? However, the bureaucratic, hierarchical church is not what Jesus had in mind anyway. A church which justifies its authority by its own authority loses credibility. Martin Luther was on to something.
All Christians, by definition those who believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, belong under one, big roof. The fact that they go through life with His love and teaching in their hearts is the main thing. Doctrinal interpretations are secondary. There will be gravitational movement among the various sects. It will be slow; and we won't be around to see it. The Catholic Church, as we know it, will morph considerably (how about a rotating, honorary papacy with Protestant support?). It may not come about via radical schisms (witness the very large numbers of ex-Catholics, constituting a substantial quasi-religious group); but in affiliations, associations, etc. Pretty much complete in 200 years.
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Not being a Roman Catholic, I can neither intellectually, nor emotionally relate to Mr. Douthat's transition from Protestantism to Catholicism. Despite all the bad things that can be said about the Catholic Church, it is one of the oldest forms of Christianity, still practiced by hundreds of millions.
Although I am weary of Pope Francis as a left-leaning Pontiff, I would not advocate Sedevacantism: it is a sterile protest movement, without offering any constructive alternative.
There are THREE urgent problems facing the Pope:
1. The vow of celibacy of the ecclesiastics;
2. Discrimination of women that may end if the Trinity were enlarged to Quadrinity, by inclusion of Mary in the latter;
3. The wholly inadequate defense of the Vatikan perimeter against an external terrorist attack.
Once I calculated that, if all the Papal Guards and Gendarmes formed a protective ring of the Holy Sea, there would no more than 1 defender every 13 meters or about 40 feet.
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@Tuvw Xyz
1. Celibacy is a very late addition to Catholic ground rules, for less than half of the church’s existence.
2. The hierarchy covering for sexually predatory priests, good for at least half a century, a Bishop near Virginia with lavish spending tastes, and he is far from alone, and the utter rejection of the yoke of Catholicism by the Irish portend much greater probłems than either you or Father Doubt That enumerate. I was an exchange student in Ireland 40 years ago, when all contraception, including condoms, was illegal. Now popular referenda have legalized both abortion and marriage equality. How’s that for a poke in the Church’s eye?
3. Why would terrorists be interested in attacking the Vatican?
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I have to chuckle a bit at all of this. I started life born Roman Catholic, almost became a priest, was a confirmed atheist by my freshman year in college. Stayed that way for almost 55 years, but always studying, probing, thinking--nearly converted to Judaism, found much to like in Buddhism, found Islam abhorrent. Ended as a sort of Stoic-Buddhist in overall outlook, still really an atheist.
A year or so ago, God called me to Greek Orthodoxy. There is no other way to say it. It involved several different things in my life, but it was real. My chuckle is at the very American-centric view that the only lasting Christian schism was the Protestant Reformation. There was a far earlier one, officially in 1054, pretty much made irrevocable by the Crusader sack of Constantinople in 1204. That was the schism between the truly original Christian faith, Orthodoxy, and Roman Catholicism.
Many in our church are converts from Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, not so many from atheism. But we share a love for the reality that our church is centered in the Scriptures. Our priests can marry. We accept ambiguity about many things theological, retaining an iron faith in Christ our Lord and the Resurrection, the central ethical teachings of the Sermon on the Mount, and our duty to seek salvation by emulating Christ. I have felt joy, hope and optimism since my conversion as at no other time in my life. So know, Catholic brolthers and sisters, there is a real option. No new schism required.
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@Publius An Orthodox church in Rochester, Minnesota, hosted a presentation about the Orthodox faith, and I asked the priest to explain the Byzantine Catholic Church. If I remember correctly, the priest said that this church is composed of Christians who have some beliefs of Orthodoxy but did not want to make a complete break from Rome.
Roman Catholics are permitted to attend the Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy, which satisfies the obligation of Sunday Mass.
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@Publius
How does God call an atheist to Orthodoxy, or anything?
A great mystery this!
While Catholicism struggles badly with patriarchy, Orthodoxy resists the struggle as strengths it.
In the movie, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, the groom is baptized into Orthodoxy to please her family, and declares, coming from the baptismal water, "Now I'm Greek!"
Orthodoxy is more tribal, less catholic, no?
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@Publius: “A year or so ago, God called me to Greek Orthodoxy. There is no other way to say it.”
I know of another way to say it: “I decided to become a Greek Orthodox, because I really wasn't an atheist at all.”
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The real catholic schism is between its official philosophy, Natural Law (used to pronounce doctrine, with or without the Bible) and modern empirical science. They, at this time, are irreconcilable.
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@John Mack
I disagree. So would many Catholic scientists.
1
Ross, I find my beliefs daily becoming more Episcopalian rather than Catholic. Will I make the Big Break? No, I won't...not YET anyway. The reason being pure and simple, i.e., Catholic guilt. The Catholic doctrine at our parochial schools was drilled into us. In a manner of speaking, we were brain-washed. After years and years, it is hard for me to shake that troublesome emotion even now at the age of 74. We knew more about the precepts of the Church than Christ's words of compassion, justice for all, and equality. But I need to add a little bit of knowledge to this dilemma of remaining "Catholic" or not. I trained to be an RN at a Catholic college. My medical ethics course was perhaps the most valuable of all re religion. If there is confusion or questions pertaining to faith and morals - in other words, if the Church is not clear - we can follow our consciences. In those instances, the universal moral law takes precedence over organized religion. And maybe that is why I have done my own thing so to speak while calling myself Catholic. I have followed this rule, particularly when no specific words in context were spoken by Christ himself.
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@Kathy Lollock, I too am contemplating dipping my toe into Episcopalian waters. Not being a "cradle Catholic" but an adult convert, I lack the layer of Catholic guilt and lack of critical thinking that I see in some of my fellow parishioners. If it's anything that has kept me from making the jump, it's the intellectual richness of Catholic thought and the genuine commitment to the poor. But this death grip on the idea of celibacy and the glass ceiling between the laity and the hierarchy may be what settles the question eventually.
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@Kathy Lollock
There should be much more talk of lifelong daily conscience formation and following one's examined conscience. It is only in this way that Catholicism is a lifelong religion and not just for unthinking rule-followers.
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@Kathy Lollock
Although I wasn’t raised Catholic, I went to Catholic high school for all four years. The nuns taught us not to put God in a box, that there are different routes to God for everyone, and to try conceptualizing God as mother, not just father. So there are figures from the Catholic Church who would support you following the belief system you now find is right for you.
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Every spiritual belief system has numerous schisms that organize as religious sects, tied closely or loosely to the larger spiritual beliefs.
Christianity is no exception.
In addition to all of the organized religions falling under the Christian umbrella, the oldest organized Christian religion, Catholicism, has various orders - from Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, etc., with variations in their belief system for centuries under the Pope.
An East-West Catholic schism happened 1000 years ago, but the Catholic Church under the Pope in Rome persisted and grew.
The great spiritual belief systems in the world attempt to understand the Creator, the multiverse, and humankind’s purpose within it.
Organized religions may offer many a path to such understanding, when they aren’t worshiping the Golden Calf and leading the flock astray.
But most tribal squabbling amongst various sects and orders of religion has nothing to do with spiritual enlightenment.
24
We need to remember that the Roman Catholic church is not the original church that was founded after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That church is still in existence today and consists of any who believe in the divinity of Jesus. Any doctrine that is not found in the Bible is man made and there should be little concern if it changes from time to time. On a recent cruise that I was on, Sunday came and we Protestants did not have a speaker or song leader. There was a Catholic priest on board who, after finishing the Catholic Mass, crossed the hall and asked if we would like for him to lead our service. After all, he said " There is only one God, one Jesus Christ and one Holy Spirit." So he preached the sermon and led the song service and did a wonderful job.
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We all too often forget, not just are we Christian, but we are all followers of the God of Abraham, just like the Jewish and Islamic faiths, and some other’s who’s names I regret to admit I cannot remember right now. It matters not what we call ourselves, it only matters how we treat each other. Let us not pretend we understand God, let us only be kind to each other. Paraphrase Blood Sweat and Tears, there may not be a heaven, but we should still try and get there.
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@Aaron Adams the 16th century Jesuit priest Matteo Ricci led services for the Jewish diaspora in China, so perhaps not surprising. Did he have two collections?
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@Aaron Adams
The original church experimented with holding all things in common.
Any doctrine that is not found in the Bible is man made, and any doctrine that is found in the Bible is man chosen; it would be difficult to find a doctrine that has never been found there by someone.
6
The Catholic church is the oldest bureaucracy on earth. As with all long standing bureaucracies change is difficult and sometimes impossible. There is always immense resistance to reform from the hierarchy who’s primary motivation becomes careerism rather than advancing the original purpose of the organization. The arguments they raise to oppose reform are couched in broad principles of the stated higher mission of the organization but in the end it is really about maintaining power and wealth. It is actually astounding that the only lasting schism in the Catholic church was the protestant reformation. The church scandals like the paedophilia scandal, the corruption at the Vatican bank as well as the profligate life styles of some Cardinals are really part of a natural decay process. The conservative catholics who wring their hands at about the reforms Francis is forcing on the church should remember that he was elevated to the Papacy because their previous choice was so astoundingly bad at running the Catholic church. My point is that this is not about religion or the will of God but a fight for power in a long lasting bureaucracy that is dying. While I applaud the efforts Francis is making to save the Catholic church I think schism and then a significant collapse of its size, power and influence is inevitable. Francis will be no more able to save the Catholic church than Gorbachev was able to save Soviet Communism.
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@JS Let's remember that there have been other "schisms" in the Church - which the Church termed "heresies"- and the reason they weren't "lasting," is because they were brutally suppressed. The Cathars, for instance, thousands of whom were murdered by agents of the Church. The Protestant reformers were protected by armies of various nobles and so the Reformation succeeded.
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@JS Good comments and I agree. But I would add:
The goal of most bureaucracies is to perpetuate themselves. There are lots of priests and bishops who have comfortable lives in the church -- and I am told that those who can get to Rome really have it good. A nice apartment and a nice life in Rome who would not like that.
When Martin Luther went to Rome he was scandalized at how the priests and cardinals were living. They might have toned it down a little since Reformation times but it is probably still a good place to be. They all profession to believe in the teaching of the Catholic Church and true Christianity but what they actually believe in is a nice comfortable life for themselves.
Organized religion in general seems to be in decline.
Although I think the Catholic Church will hang on in some form or other for quite a while, it is definitely in decline in terms of size, power, and influence.
People wonder if the church will have schism or collapse. Actually, it is a miracle that it has held together as long as it has.
It is like the Roman Empire. People wonder why the Empire eventually collapsed; what they should wonder about is how it held together for so long.
One thing that I wonder about -- if the Catholic Church collapses who will get all of those art treasures in the Vatican Museum?
Best wishes and always look for the positive.
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@JS Excellent post. Thank you. Yes, wealth and power.
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According to a recent article in America magazine, schisms in the Catholic church are not that uncommon. In some ways this whole question of schismatic camps seems somewhat like the Civil Rights movement in our own country. Those who will resist fundamental change will eventually have to change with the evolution of knowledge or not. The fact that Pope Francis is trying to focus his attention and thus the general Church's attention on the mercy of God rather than the ridgid interpretations of the magisterium is a blessed relief to many of us. It begs the question about what it means to be a Catholic in today's church and world.
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If Francis thinks the Protestant Reformation was an "elitist separation stemming from an ideology detached from doctrine" the it is clear he has never read any other the reformers, any of the history of that period, or has ever had a substantial conversation with a Protestant clergy or scholar. His statement couldn't be farther from the truth.
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@Jordan Andlovec
Well, I would say he is right that it was "elitist." Luther sort of ensured that when he came out against the German peasants' rebellion with his work "Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants." A populist Luther was not.
4
@Jordan Andlovec I doubt that he had the Protestant Reformation in mind. A Roman Catholic schism involves groups claiming to be the real Roman Catholic Church. Luther et al claimed that they were bringing back the church that was operating before papal Roman Catholicism. They certainly did not want to claim being the Roman Catholic church.
3
"And this.....should create incentives for a more open and charitable style of debate between Catholic factions, rather that just endless suspicion and invective." Shouldn't this be self evident to the leaders of a church whose founding philosophy is summed up in the phrase "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."? I'm in no one's camp here so the words schism and cleave don't scare me anymore than chrysalis or rebirth bother a biologist, but it seems to me that this represents a generational schism more ways than it does a religious one, and those will continue till the end of time. I do have one religious question for you though, now that I've read your column, do I still have to attend Mass tomorrow?
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