The reason why there is no second referendum is that such a device would be undemocratic. When people vote in a referendum there are no do-overs. For example, if there were a second referendum and Remain won, then Leave would legitimately ask for a third referendum. Asking for a do-over referendum when you've already lost and expecting a result in your favor on the 2d referendum to be the final result is like playing sudden death football where one side gets to win even if the other side has already scored in the sudden death period. In the USA there are no do-over referendums unless one is talking about a referendum taking place many years later after a new law has had a chance to be tested over time. Brexit has had no chance to be tested.
In the UK imagine if the Scots could hold an independence referendum every year until they got the result they wanted. That's not how democracy works. Referenda like this one and that on Scottish independence should be generational, allowing a new generation many years later to vote on something that had been decided decades before.
Do-over votes are for sore losers, like the do-over vote in the Instanbul mayoral race this year.
2
I can imagine Teresa May's primary regret at this point is not handing this mess over to "Brexit Boris" much earlier.
1
The Conservatives in the Brittish parliament have more guts than those in our Congress by voting against Johnson. My grandson believes that the British are different than our leaders. If that is what our young think then United States has a problem,
Perhaps, the British Magna Carta has more meaning than our Constitution. If so, we are in trouble.
2
The vote to leave the EU is the largest democratic vote ever participated in by citizens of the UK.
It resulted in 406 of 650 legal voting constituencies supporting Leave, 9 of 12 Regions supporting Leave and 17.4 million people , 52% voting to Leave. Why?
Most Americans don't know that the EU is an undemocratic government, a dictatorship, where no citizens can vote for the EU Commission which makes its laws and controls all aspects of life.
Citizens of France, Holland and Ireland have all tried to stand against the undemocratic EU before. They were undermined by the ruthless manipulation of the law by small-minded politicians, much like the US and UK today.
The current UK Parliament is working to over turn a legal vote made by the majority of people across the UK. 406 Members of Parliament are erasing the democratic vote of 17.4 million. If they succeed democracy is the UK will be destroyed. Coming to you.
3
I guess Boris will have to now "die in a ditch". Maybe he will take Dominic Cummings and Nigel Farage with him
3
What completely astonishes me about the recent Brexit news is that all of the UK seems focused on whether or not to ask for an extension, but yet little to no real discussion about what to do with that extension, should it be granted. The last few extensions have resulting in no progress, and there's no evidence that this time would be different. Meanwhile, the lack of direction and certainty alone has caused serious damage to the economies of both the UK and the EU. Another extension just prolongs this, and meanwhile the UK can't even agree on what they want internally, let alone work out a new agreement with the EU.
Given all that, why should the EU grant an extension at all?
5
One thing I don't understand about Brexit is what the 'deal' would be if it were agreed upon. The only thing mentioned regularly is the Irish border, but who is advocating its closure? That would take us back to the Troubles. Far better to unite Northern Ireland with Ireland and be done with it. Scotland will obviously vote for independence in a few years, and voila, England goes it alone and everyone is happy, right? No more Polish plumbers taking all those jobs away from the sterling youth of England. That's all internal to the UK, so I should think the only thing left to negotiate is whether English exports to the EU have to conform to EU standards, and the answer to that is: yes, obviously. So what's the fuss about?
2
So Johnson's "reign" as Prime Minister has become the "dead in a ditch" he vowed to never let happen. Too bad he doesn't have an executive order to fall back on....
1
Tribal divisions are part of humanity since Cain and Abel...
2
Boris began his career with lies and is continuing his career with lies. His lies encouraged many people to believe that Brexit would lead to a new Britania with money being saved from European wastrels, and, sweet, bilateral deals with everyone especially with the big liar in the US.
He is facing just what a liar in the UK can expect in parliament.
3
"Johnson is Britain's Trump." That says it all.
3
May groomed herself during the referendum campaign to take over the Conservative party by sitting on the fence and not supporting the Remain campaign of her prime minister. Then she achieved the title of PM without a mandate when noone else would take the job (including BoJo and Farage who both resigned).
She refused to put Brexit before parliament and only held a vote when forced to by a court decision. This appointed buffoon then called the judges enemies of the people!
And what did she even try to accomplish? She avoided any pretense of building a coalition behind a common negotiating position, preferring a my-way-or-the-highway approach and closed door discussions with the EU. The resulting monstrosity of a non agreement was subsequently - and rightly - shot down 3 times.
What did this non agreement say? That the UK and the EU agree to disagree, but we'll come back to the table at some later date to work out what she refused to work out for 2 years. Clearly Britain doesn't know what it wants and doesn't have a negotiating position other than bluffing and playing chicken with the lives of tens of millions of UK citizens.
May has as much instinct as a tyrant as Boris Johnson - it does seem to be common trait amongst members of the Conservative party - she deserved the swift metaphorical boot in the rear which is exactly what she got. May was literally the worse PM since Neville Chamberlain. Until the next one came along.
#BoJoIsTheRealProjectFear™
1
@Westcoast Texan
Ukraine isn't in the EU to start with. And racists aside, the UK relies on polish and Romanians workers to pay for and run health care and everything else because brits can't be ar5ed to. Nativist arguments everywhere fail because they are emotions devoid of any facts, repeated by the uneducated who want someone else to blame for their own failure.
4
Having broken every convention in the book, and lost multiple votes by crushing majorities, Boris Johnson is running a caretaker government. He has no legitimacy for any policy initiative.
The Queen should sack him, and ask somebody with brains and integrity to form a cabinet of national unity until a general election can be called. Because Boris is a bad joke and the EU is without a doubt loosing patience with the spoiled brat of Europe.
1
The Bullingdon Bully's found out - an ineffective bully.
1
It's quite simple. Boris should now turn around and support Remain. He will explode his party and his following, but that could not concern him very much if his vast media presence, his ability to turn no into yes, his popularity as clown, shaker-upper and Oxford smartie will continue to stand himlless, but it will be entirely sincere: it will mean Boris will stay on top in good stead. It might seem a bit...dodgy, dishonest, but it will be entirely sincere, since it will keep him on top, in the public eye, and out breaking things again, even if he will need to hang in the ropes again for a time. The queen wil be pleased, as well.
Let me make my earler point more simply (earlier version linked at the bottom here):
There never was good reason for Leave, but there has been extended failure of British leadership within the EU. So, the solution to the real, manageable British heartland problems which validly motivated the Leave movement (which was NOT validly the regressive provincialism and nationalism) is to get good British leadership within the EU, not leave the EU.
Clearly, Johnson is no leader at all, and he has quickly tied his own hands.
So, the only reason that the EU might take seriously a request by Johnson to extend the deadline is that the Parliament guarantees that Johnson is out, and that there will be elections in January under a caretaker PM. The EU grants extension if Johnson goes, and January elections are slated.
Also, given that there is no good reason for Leave, but many reasons for Remain, and polls show over and over that, generally, Brits (now well informed, not grossly misled) no longer want Brexit, then the Parliament could show leadership and repeal the invocation of Article 50.
Imagine: The crisis is easily dissolved, and good British leadership addresses heartland Britain’s real, but mangeable problems.
(earlier version of my argument, if I may: https://nyti.ms/2UJ22GN#permid=102428872 )
@gary e. davis
I'm glad to see that investment bank JP Morgan has a view that concurs with mine: From Reuters:
"At this point, our view is that resignation is the most likely,” U.S. investment bank JPMorgan said. “In our view, neither seeking to defy the law, nor encouraging the EU not to grant an extension, are likely to succeed.”
Recall that EU negotiators have expressed frustration with yet another extension. They need good reason to believe that an extension will bear fruit. Johnson can't do it. So, assurance of his resignation and elections under a caretaker PM is the rational way to resolution.
And so perishes the cult of Self. Would that we had a similar number of principled politicians willing to voice their revolt against the tyrant that hijacked their party. Hopefully their gutless silence will be suitably rewarded by the voters a few months hence.
I would like to say, this too shall pass. But I am not sure it will. And I have the same concern for the idiocy of the current GOP in the US and the Trump administration. Real harm is being done.
1
It is a truly sad state of affairs that a proud nation like England has come to this. A nation that has given the world some of the giants in history[ Shakespeare, Newton, and Churchill just to scratch the surface; is now being run by "Boris"?! Oh How the Mighty have Fallen.Call an election and let the British people decide once and for all what the future of England should be. It is the only hope to end this BREXIT insanity. At least then the British people will have to live with "their choice."
You can't separate Boris Johnson's failures and follies on Brexit from the United Kingdom.
Boris Johnson is the Prime Minister with all of the power and privilege. Along with all of benefits and burdens of his office.
1
Another example of the decline of democracy in the “free” world.
Britain will never escape Big Brussels orbit no matter how its people vote.Its bought and paid for ruling class will see to that.
1
@God
Fact is the UK was never in the "Big Brussels orbit". That is the lie fed to uneducated voters by the likes of Boris Johnson and Rupert Murdoch.
Every single law out of the EU was shaped and approved by the UK government. That's how the EU works; each country has a veto, and the UK was not shy to use it to avoid paying its fair share and not only opt out of common EU initiatives but also block other EU countries from cooperating on programmes it didn't want to see the light of day.
But the EU sure was a great fig leaf and punching ball for the politicians to blame for the policies they themselves had voted for and approved. Now #theRealProjectFear led by Boris Johnson and Rees Moggs doesn't want the tax transparency laws apply to them and their cronies, so, out with the EU! And the dopes continue to believe them...
1
It is ironic that the country from which our forefathers fled and the one which they created in its stead both have maniacs at the wheel. It also is heartbreaking!
2
If only our Congress had the same fortitude and patriotism.
5
And now the UK has its very own Trump, but at least Parliament is trying to do something about it, not like our congressional Republicans. Good luck to not-so-Merrie England; they will need it.
3
No deal Brexit is out. No "deal" Brexit can exist.
It's kind of wild living through British Imperialism eating itself from the inside.
1
It's far from clear just how the EU poses any threat to British sovereignty at all. Brexit's ONLY declared purpose was to "restore sovereignty" to the British parliament, yet parliament is now suspended by order of an avowed Brexiter as if Britain were just another a banana republic.
Parliament is a remain parliament and with that knowledge May did everything in her considerable power to stymie it, including refusing a vote on a brexit bill, until she was literally forced by a court judgement to do so. She then called the judges enemies of the people when in fact that rôle was hers.
The "agreement" she came to with the EU was no agreement at at all; it was an agreement to disagree and talk later. An agreement is impossible because Britain doesn't know what it wants, starting with the brexiters. Do I have to remind you that Farage and Johnson both resigned when the referendum returned the result they campaigned for succeeded?
And here I read disingenuous comment after ridiculous conclusing by and for brexiciders in this thread.... Muppets the lot of them, now there's a conclusion that stands to this day.
4
I think a large percentage of Americans watching this keep thinking why can't our Republican Congress stand up to the authoritarian impulses of Trump, like stealing money from our servicemen to pay for his Wall?
So refreshing to see a functioning democracy.
1
When are the Brits going to get it together and hold another referendum which this time, with a better informed public and as polls indicate, will reject Brexit?
2
Seems to me so many political bridges have been crossed now, relationships have been destroyed, and egos tarnished, UK's gov't must be changed by a new election. No longer is this all about Johnson. It occurred to me Parliament objects to a no deal Brexit because the failure of the UK to continue reasonable business as usual will fall back on laps of the PMs for their lack of leadership. One can't hide the shame when food, medicine, chaos appears showing the falling of the state of the nation. It was caused due to three years of bickering by Parliament, a political body more concerned about their own personal political livelihood. Only a national election will move the UK forward, and remove those who have shamed the UK, including their 3rd prime minister who has failed bringing about Brexit.
I have the deepest admiration for British MPs. Their courage in the face of the PMs closing Parliament is an example to Americans. We have a government that uses threats, firings, and bullying to silence opposition- gun violence, economic war, terrorists invited to dinner, love letters with N Korea as missiles rain, Pentagon money for military infrastructure rerouted to 100 miles of wall that already exists.
2
Big questions should not be put to the electorate as a whole. That’s what representatives Gov’t means.
Also - Johnson’s and the Tories only saving grace is the appalling leader of the opposition.
2
When reading about all this, one must remember that this is a country whose Lords of the Admiralty vehemently opposed shifting their navy from sail to steam, thus bringing to a close Brittania's era of ruling the waves.
As the sun sets ever more rapidly on the British empire, it is wise to remeber that this is a country ruled by an elite (mostly old Etonions or similar) who believe only their own views and discount others, especially those not of their class. Democracy does not enter into it.
At this point, crash on out, schoolboys. It's a pity for your citizens that you chose to return to the era of sail, rather than understand the true economic power and realities of globalism, and what it can and can not do for people when combined with the power of innovation, a well educated, well employed populace.
1
When the British government suspended the North American colonial assemblies in the years just before the Revolution, they picked themselves up and organized a meeting at some other place. Could the MPs do that?
Given that BoJo's endgame is to leave the EU one way or the other, this is really a big nothing-burger. He won't have 'no deal' at the bargaining table with the EU -- but the Brits didn't vote for a no-deal Brexit in the first place. They were assured before the referendum that there would be a deal.
It's a terrible idea for Britain to leave the CU, but now the leavers have their goal in sight.
There are folks below writing that America has a lesson to learn - for the better, that is - from this nonsense in British parliament.
Let me be clear the only lesson we learned from British parliament and their system - that was almost 250 years ago - to declare independence - and be done with them.
Our Founders continue to prove their worth in gold - as in a decisive break to establish a Republic of the people, by the people and for the people.
This drama in their parliament shows that britain has become - not a republic, for sure - but a country of members of parliament, by members and for members.
Jockeying over an eventual election that is bound to happen - just so as to game the system - is hardly a lesson for America.
Our politicians - sure are not free from any blemishes - but at least they vote and stand by their votes on a treaty, nomination or even an important bill like Obamacare. They don't dither.
This parliament - full of members by a significant majority - first voted for Brexit referendum, then voted to trigger the Article 50 for separation.
Yet, when push came to shove - refuse to actually implement Brexit.
There is no lesson in this betrayal, timidity or even parliamentary democracy for America.
1
There are folks below writing that America has a lesson to learn - for the better, that is - from this nonsense in British parliament.
Let me be clear the only lesson we learned from British parliament and their system - that was almost 250 years ago - to declare independence - and be done with them.
Our Founders continue to prove their worth in gold - as in a decisive break to establish a Republic of the people, by the people and for the people.
This drama in their parliament shows that britain has become - not a republic, for sure - but a country of members of parliament, by members and for members.
Jockeying over an eventual election that is bound to happen - just so as to game the system - is hardly a lesson for America.
Our politicians - sure are not free from any blemishes - but at least they vote and stand by their votes on a treaty, nomination or even an important bill like Obamacare. They don't dither.
This parliament - full of members by a significant majority - first voted for Brexit referendum, then voted to trigger the Article 50 for separation.
Yet, when push came to shove - refuse to actually implement Brexit.
There is no lesson in this betrayal, timidity or even parliamentary democracy for America.
It's heartening to see that many members of the ruling Conservative party have the backbone to vote - and act on - their morals, not their party interest. How about the Republicans find the same kind of integrity?
3
The UK has a 50 % higher incarceration rate per capita than the European average .Proof that like in the USA ( 8 times higher than Europe ) the lack of social benefits, education, social culture
conduct to higher crime and prison to contend the social pressure .
12
Pretty clueless voters easily led by a right wing press following its own agenda.
1
This the best explanation of the Brexit brouhaha that I have seen to date. Well done!
4
It is refreshing to see Democracy at work, the grip on British politics by the Populists has finally been broken by the two votes taken by Parliament yesterday. There will be No election before Oct 31st and No hard Brexit.
The likes of Putin, Trump, Le Pen, Steve Bannon and of course the unfortunate Boris Johnson are surely reeling at this outcome.
What some may see as a three ring circus in the British Parliament, I see a return to the ideals of the Parliamentary Democracy and finally a light at the end of the tunnel .
There will no doubt be an election soon, it will be about Brexit, and without Russian interference the British people will say no to Populism , and the mayhem that comes with it.
11
Still a chance there will be a no deal on Oct 31, since Boris may well just ignore the legislation requiring him to request a further extension and, even if he asks, there are murmurs that France wants to 'rip the bandage off' as it were and get this whole farce behind us, so they might not be open to granting an extension.
I sincerely hope there is still a long way to go on this and that it will finally end in no Brexit at all or the least damaging version possible (likely to be quite similar to what Theresa May negotiated), but even those who have kept an eye on it all are in uncharted waters with parliament suspended.
2
Third par from the bottom: "Relinquishing power might, however, be a tough call for a politician who has spent so much time and energy, and provoked such much turmoil ..."
Perhaps it should read "so much turmoil"?
2
We, people living in other non-UK EU (27 countries, mind you), look with wonder as we do our everyday chores at these English (the other Britons are different; they have their own parliaments), that seem to have been educated at Hogwash and spend their time out of their hometown Shire in the Wonderland that you reach through the secret door in your closet.
13
We should learn a lesson here. At least the British have the guts to stand up to a tyrannical ruler who wants to single handedly control and overthrow the government.
18
I don't think "endured" is the right expression for reaping what you sowed.
I am so happy for Theresa May.
7
What did anyone honestly expect? British MPs were never going to allow themselves to be railroaded by a self-aggrandising clown, in the manner that GOP senators and representatives have prostrated themselves before Jesus Trump Christ.
Pride, Principle, Patriotism, Courage. These are sorely lacking among GOP politicians, with very few rare exceptions.
10
I listen to, and read stories from, the pundits in England who write for (and give oral reports on) Breitbart News London.
They are there in the ground. They got Brexit right in June ‘16, which presaged the “shocking” Trump win five months later.
Johnson is determined to go down in recent British history as the next savior of England, in the line of Churchill and Thatcher.
1
To our American friends we explain the resulting chaos of the EU referendum like this: "Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer." (Thank you, David Cameron.)
As for those commenters who wonder about a second EU referendum, the simple answer many of us Remainers have for that is: bring it on. At nearly 3-1/2 years on, the UK electorate is much more informed on what the divorce would entail.
That said, if Leave were to prevail, I would not object. Only this time, ensure the result is a supermajority -- and let the facts and studies and white papers be transparent, keep social media trolls and the devious antics of Cambridge Analytica and Facebook et al under control, and allow Parliament to have frank and intelligent discussions.
But the Brexiteers, including the posh members of the ERG, who want to avoid the EU's upcoming tax-avoidance rules, having come so close to 'victory' based on lies, deception and fearmongering, are afraid of losing in a second poll -- and will cry it's undemocratic and against 'the will of the people,' when the first referendum was nonbinding and devoid of detail about the people's will.
In the end there may be no democratic solution at all. If only there were a politician brave enough (not Boris) to push the RESTART button.
10
@Demetroula
One cannot get a better illustration of why referendums have no place in politics. I thought the one the Greeks had about their debt was a masterpiece but obviously I "ain't seen nothin' yet".
By the way, if you do have a second referendum and the result is to remain, I wonder if the Brexiteers would say, wait a minute, it's one all, let's have a tiebreak!
If only the Republicans had the courage their British counterparts do Trump would have been stymied and unable to destroy everything he has touched.
11
Yes it is hard to feel sorry for Boris Johnson. But a majority of Brits voted to leave the EU and probably still want to. The Eu means for them the flood of unwanted immigrants to Britain. Hard to know why they object to Poles and Ukrainians more than Africans and South Asians. That's a mystery to me. But of course the EU has allowed Africans and Asians into Europe so Europe becomes the road to London.
I bet Trump would love Norman French used on his behalf: Le Roi le veult.
2
@n1789. Why? It's because the Poles, Romanians, etc. (not Ukrainians as Ukraine is not a full EU member) - because these people have been arriving in larger numbers, willing to enter the workforce more or less straight away and prepared to accept pay rates well below the local going rate since many of them plan to spend the money back in their countries of origin.
Wrong on all fronts. The EU has nothing to do with immigration from non-EU countries into the U.K. Border controls apply at the frontiers of the U.K. to all travelers and travel documents are checked. Ergo, this is the false argument propagated by Brexit enthusiasts which has no base in reality.
2
If employment rights were more robust we could fix that without throwing a hand grenade into our politics.
Too late now, though.
With the Brexit referendum, hosts of pie in the sky promises were made. One of the driving forces for the "leave" crowd was stopping immigrants from other EU countries . Now the possibility of economic turmoil is significant with or without a "deal" . The EU is exhausted by Britain's behavior. Now, the Backstop comes up as the stumbling block again. How does an English- made problem become something Ireland must endure ? Why is this different from any other night ? The person I actually feel badly for in all this is the Queen who must be stunned at her ministers' incompetence.
6
The only reasonable solution is to submit to the british people, throught a new referndum, the plan as proposed by the RU, as it is.
And by explaining clearly ( which was not done on the first referendum which was flawed on that account), what is exactly entailed, what financial, personal, travel facilities, etc, consequences will result, so that the british people may be fully informed when choosing to stay or remain.
In any event a referendum taking place in a "United Kingdom", what about the will of Scotland and NI,which are separate Kingdoms, with separate parlements and which flags, with that of England, are part of today's UK flag
It seems like the politicians in the UK, like the corrupt one here in the US, are more interested in protecting their own interests than implementing the will of the the people. For three long years the UK politicians have been dithering. Unfortunately only the incompetents and the corrupt enter the field of politics, and make it so swampy that the real work of good governance is lost.
4
It's too bad May didn't have the guts to call for another referendum when she had a chance after she negotiated a deal with the EU that didn't line-up - at all - to the impossible promises - which were never possible - the leave campaign 'promised'. She should have said, right so we are going to call a vote for the general public to decide on their future. The EU's negotiated deal, or no deal - stay in the EU - because that was the best the UK was able to get, and it wasn't what Boris promised the the people in the first place. That would have been fair all around....and well the way forward out of this mess!
1
What do parliamentarians want? Earlier this year Mrs May came back with a deal from the EU, the only deal the EU states it is prepared to offer. Three times the deal was rejected along with several amendments. Parliament is a remain parliament, remain MPs outnumber leave MPs almost three to one which is why the laws tying Mr Johnson's hands have been so successfully implemented. The LibDems state that they will not honour a leave vote even in the event that it is a result of a second referendum. Both the LibDems and SNP want to stay in the EU so will reject any deal even if it the softest Brexit aka Brexit in name only. The Labour Party rejected the original deal because it had been negotiated by a Conservative PM. So if Mr Johnson comes back with another deal then history could well repeat itself and the deal rejected again. So as it stands the current impass is that Parliament will not accept a 'no deal', nor will they accept 'a deal' especially if it is negotiated by another Conservative PM and involves leaving the EU.
@Trevor Downing
Parliament is a remain parliament and with that knowledge May did everything in her considerable power to stymie it, including refusing a vote on a brexit bill, until she was literally forced by a court judgement to do so. She then called the judges enemies of the people when in fact that rôle was hers.
The "agreement" with she came to was no agreement at at all; it was an agreement to disagree and talk later. An agreement is impossible because Britain doesn't know what it wants, starting with the brexiters. Do I have to remind you that Farage and Johnson both resigned when the referendum returned the result they campaigned for succeeded.
Disingenuous question, ridiculous conclusions by and for brexiciders. Muppets the lot of them, now there's a conclusion that stands to this day.
4
I wish the Boris Johnson story could be transplanted to the USA, starring one Donald J Trump. He so richly deserves the same humiliation
7
Mexico will build the wall,
We'll have the best healthcare insurance ever,
Repeal Obamacare,
Great deal with North Korea,
...
What more do you want? Americans paying for tariffs on Chinese goods?
Did he overplay his hand, or watch too many episodes of 'the apprentice' ... stick to Shakespeare, he teaches real lessons.
And your body double on this side of the Atlantic is headed for a similar fate. Or worse, when, as a private citizen in 2021, the various charges against him make Mac Beth's life seem like a picnic.
3
Stephen Castle’s commentary on Boris Johnson’s crisis is excellent.Johnson lost every gamble he took.The main problem is that in retrospect Boris Johnson never had a setback in his politics.He moved from post to post.Boris had a rare personality.Whatever he did,nothing bad stuck to him,What would have ruined any politician never touched him.
Going by his political life,Johnson must have been convinced that he can bluster through anything.
But what he never expected was the rare unity of most political leaders against his arrogance.Boris never imagined that his opponents would hit back as hard as he hit them!The last straw was the expulsion of senior-most MPs from his party.
InItially,Boris”s opponents decided to wait&watch.When Boris showed he had no limits,the”Establishment”decided to act.Every action of Boris was crushed.Proroguing of Parliament was neutralised.Elections were not permitted.Boris has no option but to stop his No-Deal Brexit.
Boris can resign&create a crisis.But that would mean the end of his career.So he will keep trying everything to stay as Prime Minister.
Castle mentions the perfect timing of Speaker Bercow’s exit.Now only an opponent of Boris would become Speaker,
The entire politics of Boris since he became Prime Minister has been called”Constitutional Hardball” or very rough politics,without any respect for conventions.But going by the results,it may well be called”Constitutional Boomerang”.Boris was hit back as hard as he hit others&defeated himself!
6
Disgraceful. In all of this, there seems no interest in finding out what the whole of the country wants and needs that I can see.
6
As political ducks go, they don't come any lamer than Johnson. This will not end well for him and his inflated sense of self-importance and what only he considers to be his 'destiny'.
10
Flailing, undoubtedly.
But defeated? Not yet and not even close.
He is still prime minister, to the shame of Britian and to the disappointment of friends of Britain.
Britain is still heading towards a no-deal Brexit that the parliament as a whole never wanted, most voters have never favored, and which would leave the UK, the EU (and America) worse off.
Bojo still has a bag of tricks available to his mischief-making talents:
He can concoct a last minute deal with the EU that is superficially different from no-deal and present that to Parliament, when it will too late to do anything else but approve it or accept no-deal.
He can resign at the second half of October and blame Parliament for the ensuing mess (e.g. probably a No Deal exit).
He can help engineer a rejection of any deadline extension by the EU.
Parliament should never have made him prime minister, or voted no confidence once he got in and started seriously wrecking things. There should have been, years ago, a new referendum straight and clear (unlike the smoke and mirrors of 2014): No Deal or Remain. Because any negotiated deal (pipe dream) runs a serious risk of being worse than either No Deal or Remain.
1
Please tell me if I am correct. If the UK stays in the EU, they have to continue accepting all immigrants from eastern Europe because of open borders. I lived for 33 years in Texas, and I know that Texans are furious that Texas is being taken over by Californians and people from other States. Austin, the capital of Texas, is now a west coast city that was flooded by Californians (like me) and almost as liberal as San Francisco. Because Austin jumped on globalization back in the 1980's and is a global center for high technology, there are tens of thousands of high tech people from China, India, Europe, and everywhere else. Personally, I think it's great, but I'm a Ph.D. and not in high tech.
If the UK stays, do they have to accept any and all immigrants from Romania, Bulgaria, Morovia, Ukraine, etc.? I have watched documentaries about some eastern Europeans countries are loosing all their people because they are all moving to western Europe.
2
Whether the U.K. stays in the E.U. or not, they are bound by the same international law regarding refugees.
3
@Westcoast Texan. The answer is yes and no, as usual with such issues.
For a start, the Ukraine isn't a full EU and that won't be changing any time soon.
As far as the other ex-Soviet bloc states, there are rules governing whether they're allowed here, but not very restrictive ones. If, while in the EU, we are very much overwhelmed and if the other EU states agree, extra restrictions can be applied, but, crucially, these are all ultimately temporary.
As far as refugees are concerned, they are meant to stay in the country in which they first gain refugee status, and, according to - I think - the Dublin Agreement, they should claim refugee status in the first safe country they reach.
Potentially, though, this net inward migration is the big problem with our EU membership. Being English speaking and with some apparently fairly generous benefits and healthcare, we will always be a magnet to migrants. In the past, the logistics of travel kept the number of migrants low, but with the advent of cheaper travel, and with the information available along the way via mobile phones, the potential numbers are very large. The UN records about 70 million displaced people worldwide.
1
@Westcoast Texan. The answer is yes and no, as usual with such issues.
For a start, the Ukraine isn't a full EU and that won't be changing any time soon.
As far as the other ex-Soviet bloc states, there are rules governing whether they're allowed here, but not very restrictive ones. If, while in the EU, we are very much overwhelmed and if the other EU states agree, extra restrictions can be applied, but, crucially, these are all ultimately temporary.
As far as refugees are concerned, they are meant to stay in the country in which they first gain refugee status, and, according to - I think - the Dublin Agreement, they should claim refugee status in the first safe country they reach.
Potentially, though, this net inward migration is the big problem with our EU membership. Being English speaking and with some apparently fairly generous benefits and healthcare, we will always be a magnet to migrants. In the past, the logistics of travel kept the number of migrants low, but with the advent of cheaper travel, and with the information available along the way via mobile phones, the potential numbers are very large. The UN records about 70 million displaced people worldwide.
1
Boris Johnson is no Winston Churchill!
6
When all else fails, we go to the bookies in London to get a clearer picture of what's going to happen. According to them:
No-Deal Brexit odds:
No 1/4
Yes 11/4 (cold turkey cut and run pretty popular)
Article 50 revoked:
No 4/11
Yes 9/4 (I can't see Article 50 being revoked without a 2nd referendum).
Isn't Brit politics great?
Brexit is a farce, perhaps comparable to the story line in Catch-22. It was a scam foisted on British public by Leavers who put the Irish border problem under the rug at the time of referendum.
But I am amazed that no one is pointing out the incompetence of the Remainers during the campaign in 2016. Why did they not attack Leavers on their head with the Irish border issue at that time?
3
Hardworking highly qualified, experienced older woman proposes well researched realistic options to resolve intractable problem. Gets pooh-poohed. Enter flamboyant over confident isolationist man who promises wild accomplishments and lands job. Attempts to achieve goal by circumventing rules and suppressing dissent. Democracy and justice suffers blow and intractable problem hits common man hard.
Exactly how many times does this story have to repeat itself in human history for us to learn a lesson?
7
@Essar
Are you talking about May? She groomed herself during the referendum campaign to take over the Conservative party by sitting on the fence and not supporting the Remain campaign of her prime minister. Then she achieved the title of PM without a mandate when noone else would take the job for good reason.
She refused to put Brexit before parliament and only held a vote when forced to by a court decision. THis appointed buffoon then called the judges enemies of the people!
And what did she even try to accomplish? She avoided any pretense of building a coalition behind a common negotiating position, preferring a my-way-or-the-highway approach and closed door discussions with the EU. The resulting monstrosity of a non agreement was subsequently - and rightly - shot down 3 times. What did this agreement say? That the UK and the EU agree to disagree, but we'll come back to the table at some later date to work out what she refused to work out for 2 years because Britain doesn't know what it wants and doesn't have a negotiating position other than bluffing and playing chicken with the lives of tens of millions of UK citizens.
May has as much instinct and bona fides as a tyrant as Boris Johnson, it does seem to be common trait amongst members of the Conservative party. She didn't deserve to be pooh poohed, she deserved a good swift metaphorical boot in the rear which is exactly what she got. She was literally the worse PM since Neville Chamberlain. Until the next one came along.
1
Hardworking highly qualified, experienced older woman proposes well researched realistic options to resolve intractable problem. Gets pooh-poohed. Enter flamboyant over confident isolationist man who promises wild accomplishments and lands job. Attempts to achieve goal by circumventing rules and suppressing dissent. Democracy and justice suffers blow and intractable problem hits common man hard.
Exactly how many times does this story have to repeat itself in human history for us to learn a lesson?
3
Mr Trump buys Northern Irland instead of Greenland and makes huge investments by constructing hundreds of golf courses with retreats - that might solve the problem.
1
Majoritarianism in the guise of democracy is going to be the undoing of western nations - Brexit in the case of the U.K., winner-takes-all elections in the case of the US which have given us awful characters like Boris and Don the Con.
“Suddenly” is a strange word choice. He’s been failing since day 1 of his premiership and it’s been downhill from there.
None of this is a surprise though. He’s been a failure in all his endeavours.
3
The surreal heights of political gamesmanship and the furious stoking of intraparty and interparty divisions have made great political and social theater in the United Kingdom for the three years post the Brexit binding referendum in 2016.
The executive governmental responsibility to deliver on the Brexit "Leave" vote has abruptly ended, foreshortened, hamstrung and ultimately ended three previous Conservative Prime Ministers and, based on the tumultuous and raucous events of Boris Johnson's "honeymoon" at No. 10, seems all but certain to claim another.
And while Mr. Johnson may try to put a defiant-to-the-last face on it, the Queen's Royal Assent to Parliament's bill obliterating the possibility for a No Deal Brexit has neutered the Blond Mouth That Roared. All Mr. Johnson has left is picking out a suitable ditch for his "dirt nap". There are now at least 21 former Conservative Party members waiting for the chance to make Mr. Johnsion lie in the bed he has made.
The EU Council, not any current or future Parliament or Prime Minister, is holding the fate of Brexit in its hands. The EU can by 1 out of 28 "no" vote to a request to yet another Article 50 extension. The UK would be forced to choose from three options; ratify the existing withdrawal agreement proposed by former PM Theresa May formally withdraw the UK's Article 50 notification or be forced out of the EU on October 31st or whatever new extension date the EU Council may "provisionally" offer.
2
The Conservatives have dragged the UK population and the rest of Europe along on this quixotic quest to quell the dissent in their right wing. Revoke Article 50 and get back to the business of running a country. Enough.
5
The UK should stay in the EU and advocate for the changes it needs to be happy. This business of blowing things up and creating chaos just to see how the pieces settle is childish (on both sides of the Atlantic). It speaks of a fundamental lack of seriousness of the aggrieved party, even its childishness (talking about you too Donald). Where are the adults in Parliament?
6
Don't put is past Johnson to try some illegal move to dissolve Parliament and assume unilateral power to implement a no-deal Brexit.
Should Trump lose the election in 2020, he will likely do the same (defy the Constitution. declare the election stolen and attempt to become a dictator. Unlike in Johsson's case, Trump can count on the support of his party).
1
Kudos to the British parliament for stopping the runaway mad man in his tracks.
At least the elected MPs there are willing to back principles when push comes to shove. The same cannot be said about the sycophant republican senators and house reps in the US who seem to abandon democratic principles at the slightest inconvenience.
Britain may formally have a monarch but one who lets democracy run without interference. The US on the other hand, has an elected autocrat who shows contempt for democratic principles with the so-called check-and-balance republican majority neutered.
2
Say what you will, I find it refreshing that a group of elected officials, irrespective of their party, stood together to vote against a bully.
Wish I could see this happening here at home.
8
One has to return to the original Brexit frenzy to see that it was a popular referendum with a non-binding result that started this whole mess. Only 51.9% voted to leave the EU - hardly a majority. What happened next when the then government decided to go with "the will of the people" and begin the formal process of leaving the EU. But this will of the people included only half of the people - hardly a majority.
It has become a political mes ever since with politicians jockeying for power and doing what is best for themselves while ignoring the overall Brexit black hole and the polarizing effect it has on the electorate, not to mention the economy.
When you add Boris to the mix, it just gets worse - he's very much like Trump in that he is a remorseless narcissist whose self-love is manifested through his preference for publicity, autocratic rule and a complete disdain for democracy.
2
@Paul Longhouse With only a 72% turnout of eligible voters in the referendum, that 51.9% regularly quoted is far less of a majority.
1
David Cameron's Brexit referendum folly that was cleverly exploited by Boris Johnson to fulfil his lust for power seems to have been corrected substantially by the British Parliament just at a time when the whole legitimacy and the resilience of the British Westminster model was pit to the stress test by the populist demagogue Boris Johnson.
1
I believe we should look at who gains from no deal Brexit. We know who loses. Perhaps with the amount of farmers going bankrupt, land speculators can buy them out. Perhaps certain supporters seek to obtain monopoly import/export rights. Maybe the elimination of EU anti-monopoly laws means that an oligarchic US style economy will develop.
I can only hope Scotland will leave this mess which is an English Nationalist nightmare. If this happens we may make a statue to BOJO.
If you didn’t watch the last hours of this parliamentary session on tv (I did), please read the accompanying Times article to get the flavor of the high drama and emotion, shot through with occasional moments of zaniness, that marked the occasion. It was riveting, but very upsetting, ushering in a period of grave uncertainty for the U.K. populace—a feeling we in this country can identify with.
1
Okay, I know that schadenfreude is ungracious, but I can’t help it. The spectacle of Boris Johnson, outmaneuvered and unceremoniously dumped in a tight corner by Parliament after his high-handed treatment of them, offers too much pleasure to pass up.
5
Dear Mister Johnson,
Be brave and refuse to leave the EU. You will have done the right thing and be a true hero. Born on the battlefield. And remembered for your bravery.
1
Another referendum does not solve the current dilemma in the the UK. What if the result was still to leave the EU? The politicians would still be clueless as to how to carry that out.
A lot of people seem to think the EU won't grant the UK another extension. But they will.
2
It's good Parliament has stood up to Boris Johnson and stopped no-deal brexit. But Parliament hasn't yet faced up to the fundamental problem, which is there is no better brexit deal than May's deal on offer. There are three and only three choices: 1) no-deal Brexit; 2) May's brexit; and 3) remain. If Parliament has ruled out option 1, then the nation must choose between options 2 and 3. I think it should do so by holding another referendum.
1
I would hope this situation in Britain is a road map for the U.S.. Every poll. Every single one. Shows that the majority of Americans want a different path than the Republicans are taking us down. They want background checks for guns. They want restrictions on assault weapons. They want us to be engaged internationally. They don't want a 'Twitter' president. They want universal health care. They want immigrants in this country. They want global warming to be addressed. They want clean air and clean water. And on and on. In Great Britain, Brexit was a narrow winner. It isn't even close with most issues in America. So I hope America gets out and votes and tells Republicans, especially Trump, what they think of the Republican agenda. The will of the few. Not of the many.
3
This parliamentary majority can only agree on one thing delaying Brexit. They can't agree on revoking Article 50 which would end Brexit. They can't agree accepting the Theresa May compromise. They can't agree on leaving. So they kicked the can down the road 3 months? Do you really think anyone in the UK is going to give them a standing ovation? Check the polls, Boris Johnson is still in front.
5
does Article 50 really require immediate breaking of union without regard to consequences?
Boris will get his election some time soon and the people will hand the united (and purged) Conservatives a big win. The UK will then leave the EU under much more favorable terms. Even Ireland will come round and accept the sort of border Switzerland has with the EU countries surrounding it. The British electorate do not want a fringe leftist such as Corbyn running the nation. That will be the real issue before them.
3
It’s more likely that the government resigns ahead of the deadline and a unity government of Liberal and Labour parties takes over and calls an election after asking for an extension to the Brexit deadline. A general election will likely leave the numbers in Parliament relatively unchanged so as to make a unity government the most probably outcome.
4
There's no favorable terms to be had. It's fairy land. If the EU is generous, it's self defeating, you know, like Boris. The UK lost all leverage when they voted to leave the largest trading Bloc in the world. May's deal was far too generous for that matter, but that was presumed to help Ireland I imagine.
The reality is that a lot of billionaires, mostly in the US, are set to benefit from a hard Brexit. While I don't see any proposals from Boris, I do see transatlantic meetings.
1
@mjw Germany wants to export cars to the UK and France wants to export wine and food. Businesses in those countries will demand an arrangement with the UK, and that is no fantasy.
Instead of pushing for a new election, Boris and his fellow Brexiteers should push for a new referendum. This time, the wording of the referendum needs to make it binding on Parliament.
The UK finds itself in this position because politicians of all stripes have been using Brexit to get a leg up on their opponents, and not to carry out the will of the people. No one is more guilty of this than Jeremy Corbyn, who three years ago was loath to stay in the EU. It is ironic that some Labour MPs are now being forced to vote against Brexit even though their blue collar constituency voted overwhelmingly for Brexit.
So Boris and Jeremy, hold your little election. It's sure to result in a still divided Parliament who will not be able to agree a way forward. Continue to pretend everything is normal until complete failure is achieved.
3
The referendum not binding, can't by British constitutional law be binding and was only made binding by an act of Parliament after the fact by a vote in Parliament that was imposed on the May government following a court case brought against its attempts to abuse "executive privilege" and force brexit without parliamentary consent. May then called the judges "enemies of the people ".
I can understand your frustration but suggesting solutions that aren't solutions because you don't understand the basic facts of the situation is less than helpful.
2
@Andy
You are correct. The Brexit referendum, and the only two other national referendums held in all of Britain's history, were non-binding due to the sovereignty of Parliament.
However, in my opinion, the High Court Justices that rendered their decision in the case you cite seemed to indicate that the referendum could have been binding had the authorizing legislation adopted by Parliament indicated so.
The court said in their ruling (@ Para 106), "That Act falls to be interpreted in light of the basic constitutional principles of Parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy which apply in the United Kingdom, which lead to the conclusion that a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament unless very clear language to the contrary is used in the referendum legislation in question. No such language is used in the 2015 Referendum Act."
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2016/2768.html#para106
Parliament is stuck, with no way forward or back. A general election will not break the impasse. Therefore, I think a new and decisive referendum must be held. This time, the enabling legislation should clearly indicate Parliament's wish that it be binding on the government and on Parliament itself.
Or they risk doing serious damage to democracy itself.
Today starts Boris Johnson’s five week Parliament suspension, a move originally intended to prevent a vote against a no deal Brexit and a possible call for a new election before 31st October, both of which failed. The question nobody wants to ask remains, if no deal is reached with the EU before 31st October, then what??
6
After a three year delay that has given rise to nothing but social division, political paralysis and economic uncertainty, how strange for someone to claim that Mr. Johnson is a "toothless Prime Minister" as he seeks to bring this matter to a close. And how puzzling to understand how an election which would provide an opportunity to reaffirm or reject the outcome of a controversial referendum should be considered "undemocratic!"
Such is the mayhem that ensures when the freedom and liberty of an entire country is compromised. When English law becomes subservient to "EU law" and "freedom and liberty" is given a lower priority than job security and economic prosperity.
At its heart "Brexit" has always been about the restoration of British sovereignty, for whatever hardships may lie ahead, there's no doubt that many in the UK are quite prepared to risk economic hardship and material discomfort for freedom and independence.
If the opposition parties in the UK are not prepared to take this matter to an election, to allow the British people to affirm or reject Mr Johnson's actions, then let the outcome of the referendum be honored . Whatever your opinion on whether Britain should remain in the EU or leave, like Mr Johnson, may we all come to see the wisdom in respecting the will of the people and of supporting those values upon which any any true democracy must be built ..... Freedom, Equality, Liberty and Justice for all !
4
And the remaining middle class will melt away
On the subject of PM Johnson, rather than Brexit, I would suggest that we are seeing a canny political operator in action. We may well also be seeing how to swiftly deal with a leader who is does not have the confidence, for whatever reason, of the people. Only time will tell which is nearer the truth but I think in the end it is the Ballot Box that will have the final say. In this the UK and the USA have a commonality.
3
@Allsop A canny operator? Surely you must be joking. The man is 0 - 6 so far in Parliamentary voting and that is the result of only one week. As far as confidence is concerned, not even his own brother trusts him to do what is right for country. Theresa May took her chance at the ballot box and lost. It is hard to see Boris Johnson coming out of this looking like anything but a chancer.
2
All this, along with most US commentary, assumes that the EU would grant an extension if it were asked. There's no sign that it would unless the UK could come up with a very good reason. But the UK has gone three and a half years without any new ideas and seems unlikely to come up with any now. A new election would either result in the Conservatives (under yet another Brexiteer) becoming Prime Minister or (far less likely) result in Labour under Jeremy Corbyn taking over the post, and Corbyn has been a foe of the EU since before the UK even joined it. He's built his whole career on that. So the UK is leaving, and the only question is when. And the EU has grown tired of waiting for the inevitable. It has other problems to deal with. The only thing that would certainly gain an extension would be the promise of a new referendum, and it's hard to imagine either the Conservatives or Corbyn asking for that.
9
On a point of fact, a second referendum with Remain as an option is official Labour Party policy. Please check your facts before sounding off.
Make a decision for a major change of policy of dubious value, and put someone with a dubious reputation for veracity in charge of implementing it. What could possibly go wrong?
25
I find the British system of Parliament baffling. I need a Dummies Guide to Brexit.
7
@Mary
TO understand Brexit and Parliament.....all you really need to know is that the parliament simply can't find a piece of legislation (a deal) that would get a sufficient number of votes in parliament.
Think of it like America and gun legislation.
It's pretty similar.
1
@Mary
Don't ask UK or Irish people what they think of the US political system (Filibuster, Electoral College, Veto, etc.)
@Mary
I assure you the Brits find American politics as baffling as you find Brit politics.
1
So, does this mean Boris will decide to "or die?
2
Where is the EU in all this? I thought they set the Oct 31 deadline. And doesn’t that make all this British rigmarole about exit with a deal or exit no-deal irrelevant? If that date comes and they haven’t made an agreement, then it’s a no-deal exit. Am I wrong?
2
No - if no deal has been made, Johnson is now obliged by law to seek an extension. Only if EU refuses an extension will it be a no deal Brexit.
7
The 21 rebel Conservative MPs, allied with other MPs who oppose a no deal Brexit (or indeed Brexit on any terms), have secretly sought, and apparently obtained, assurances from the EU leaders that they will grant an extension, on the footing that during the extension period there will be a further referendum, presumably on the back of a general election which would see off Johnson and instal a government (Labour, or Labour led coalition) that would offer "the people" the chance to undo the first vote, or to vote for a Brexit on EU friendly terms. Some believe that this scenario may just prolong the chaos and the agony.
1
I’ve been really curious about whether Boris could get the job done on his own poorly thought out, and even less honest plan for Brexit. Poor Ms May was really hamstrung for all 3 years she’s been trying to get to a deal. No one liked anything she worked to get done, seemingly every single time. As I suspected, he can’t get anything done either. Ms May probably is really enjoying this now. Delicious
14
Instead of saying Boris Johnson is suddenly failing, the headline linked to the defeat of multiple Boris Johnson’s policies, is really just business as usual, for Boris Johnson.
He is no leader. There is no substance, substantive policy, deeply held principles with Boris Johnson. It is just relentless self promotion, where style is more important than substance. That the Conservative Party turned to Boris Johnson as their PM, shows how out of touch they are with the multiple issues facing the UK.
If Boris Johnson does pull off a no deal Brexit for the UK, it would be victory for Boris Johnson that will come at the cost of permanently lower economic growth for the UK, compared to remaining in the EU.
19
@Barry of Nambucca
Question is, whether Australia wants to see the UK in the EU or not? Australian companies traditionally set up office in London and then pivot into the EU using Brit expertise and connection.
Hard working experienced older woman presents well prepared proposals to address intractable problem.
Gets pooh-poohed. Enter flamboyant over confident isolationist strong man who promises wild accomplishments and lands job. Attempts to solve problem by flouting rules and suppressing dissent. Intractable problem hits common man hard.
Exactly how many times does this story have to repeat itself in human history for is to learn?
39
great synopsis but this situation seems unprecedented
That sums it up nicely I must say!
I love Britain, and wish her well. The Russians, fifth columnists, and voter apathy were the reasons Brexit passed. Time for a new referendum.
18
@Todd
American interference was much more pernicious than Russian interference in Brexit.
Brexit is a far right American coup, supported by the Mercers etc, to regulatorily align the UK with the US.
1
Johnson can get his no-deal Brexit and still comply with the law, which says he must ask the EU for yet another delay if he does not come up with a deal. He just needs make sure the EU recieves his delay proposal on Oct. 31, but not before 11:55 pm. The Brexit will come into effect 5 min later.
@Helleborus or,the EU could just say in advance that they will accept his request to delay as soon as it is lodged
4
Good idea, but I think you overestimate the flexibility of the EU parliament.
1
There's one important factor that's being missed here (and that's not a dig at the Times, as the British papers are largely ignoring it too): The real reason that Johnson wants the election to take place right away is because he doesn't want university students to vote. Most universities around the country start classes next week, so their students are just now arriving on campus. That means that, if the election occurs before the Halloween Brexit deadline, they won't have had enough time to register to vote in their new areas. They would then have to travel all the way home to vote--on a school day. Given that students are almost universally opposed to the Conservative party (particularly since the Tories imposed a £9,500 annual fee to attend university), this could make all the difference in a national election.
48
@Tim Hughes Don't they have absentee voting provisions in the UK?
Johnson doesn’t have to win or get anything through parliament. He only needs to run out the clock until Oct 31. No party has the votes to get a deal passed, so a no-deal brexit is the default result.
2
@Brian except that that would be breaking the law.
10
No extensions, no concessions. Let the Brits have what they voted for with their empire-inspired Little Englander mentality: a hard Brexit. Sometimes only pain can achieve what reason couldn’t.
4
@Chris actually, the Brits most definitely did not vote for a hard Brexit.
13
And the Scots didn't vote for Brexit at all.
2
I understand your point and justified exasperation, yet you have to realise that the brexit referendum was a poor idea sold on lies and false promises and many got manipulated into voting "leave".
And even without taking this in account one still has to aknowledge that significant parts of the UK were already back then resolutely pro-europe. (and I do not mean only London and its City as one reads sometimes..)
In short one should also keep some consideration for the 2/3 of the population which did not vote for "leave", and which is a poor hostage to this whole stupid drama, even if half of them actually did not vote at all back then.
2
Is there something about the hair? Both Boris and Donald seem to feel they need a “ special” hair do to distinguish themselves? What’s this about?
17
Ellen, this is a symptom of a limited supply of nutrients in the head region above the eyes.
3
@Helleborus
What a hilarious comment...made me laugh out loud. And boy did I need a laugh!
Give the man some credit. He said he was for a "do or die" Brexit. Looks like he's chosen option #2.
10
@Ken he had several opportunities to vote for the deal May brokered. Guess you forgot that, weren't paying attention or really just have no idea what you are talking about
@John Smith Johnson voted twice against May's deal and for it on the third vote. Inconsistency and irresponsibility are his trademarks.
Wish our politicians had some guts.
8
The UK spoke narrowly but significantly; they want out of the EU. The real reason is the Freedom of Movement requirement for EU members. And the dirty little secret that the American media refuses to report is that Leave would win in a second referendum and the Tories in an election. Johnson knows it and the opposition know it and that's why they don't want an election. Finally, John Bercow has been treated disgracefully by so many from both sides of Parliament. I am more convinced than ever that antisemitism is playing a big role in the viciousness of the behavior directed toward him.
1
A bad day for Boris Johnson is a good day for democracy and the U.K.
22
Perhaps he should follow through on his promise
5
Ironically the only words to describe the way I feel about Boris have to be brought in from Europe.
The zeitgeist is schadenfreude.
16
Boris is flailing, but the Conservative party will survive, because is still has some patriots.
Donald is flailing, and the Republican will go down with his ship, because they have no patriotic Americans left on board.
16
Mr Boris Johnson is already dead. A lot of credit should go to to British parliametarians who defied the PM doing things which were harmful to British interests. Compare this to American politics. Trump is still sitting pretty there without any challenge to his authority. Shows the wide gap in application of constitutional provisions to proper use to the limits of good democratic principles. Will Republicans rise to the occasion?
16
Just like our current President. So easy to criticize and offer up easy sounding solutions to difficult problems in order to get elected but then impossible to implement those overly simplistic , half-baked, never was going to work "solutions" once in office.
14
Boris evidently overlooked the fact that a group of only 160,000 voted to for him in a country with a population of nearly 65,000,000. To assume that allowed him to run roughshod over more than two centuries of custom only confirms that he is another who is a legend in his own mind.
13
Boris deserves this. The UK population does not. Boris lied to the general poplulation and the folks that voted for Brexit did not do their due diligence and really understand the implications of what leaving the EU would mean. Understandably, that they want to preserve their national identity, but we live in a global world. And, too many voted based on an anti-immigration position.
Having traveled through Norther Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, Czech Republic) did not get the feeling at all that national identity was being lost. Rather, the sense was that commerce was moving fast, goods flowing, and people travelling freely taking advantage of new economic opportunities. Too bad those in the UK who voted for Brexit live in fear.
Johnson and the Brexit supporters are feeding a lie to their people, the same way President Bone Spurs feeds lies to people here every day. One hopes Parliament opposes Boris, and deposes him fast. Corbin ain't better, so maybe someone will arise from the ashes.
15
Heartening to see that the Brits aren't afraid of the big bad wolf. Congress, take note.
9
If PM Boris demands the EU to postpone the exit and he asks at the same time to drop the backstop than the EU will not accept the resuest and the UK will drop out of the EU on October 31. Jeremy Corbyn ruined the case of the anti no-dealers by insisting on the interim PM’s ship, in reality asking Conservatists to nominate a communist to take over power in the UK.
@robert the EU can simply accept his request to postpone Brexit and ignore his request to drop the backstop.
5
(a) Corbyn is not a “communist”
(b) Johnson cannot request the backstop be dropped as part of the extension request - the text of the letter to the EU requesting A50 extension is laid down in the Act.
3
Not trying to change the subject, as the subject is rank self-interest and incompetence, but how I wish the US Congress could stand up to Trump the way the British Parliament has stood up to Johnson.
Agree or not with Brexit, agree or not with the Trumpers' vision of America's place in the world, both Johnson and Trump are bad men leading badly and need to be put in their respective places. For Trump, that would be jail.
14
What is A Deal ?
What is the meaning of that notion of a deal ?
People in the UK have no idea that they were in a contract with the European Union, several nations, and they want to leave .
Contract for which they still ow dues .
What kind of a deal do they expect ?
They leave the deal.
4
seems like the Brits carved out a nitch where they participated in the EU, but kept more autonomy than other members, and are playing out this elitist temper tantrum with Boris as the voodoo doll.
1
@ErikW65 Brexit is not the game of the UK elite but of the poor and uneducated .
That UK is no elite in Europe...
Unless things have changed drasticaly in the UK since I kept up with British politics, one thing that must be remembered is that MPs do not represent their constituents. They represent their party. It used to be that the party selected MP candidates from a national group and placed them in districts that were either safe or not safe.
It appears that all it takes to run for a seat today is ten voters in the district; there doesn't seem to be a residency requirement. Thus, elected MPs have no reason to vote as their districts would want but huge reasons to vote for their party. What that means is that the MPs are beholden to the ruling elites. In the UK, the ruling elites never accepted the referendum, and Theresa May was one of those who would have much preferred Brexit to go away. Perhaps that affected her negotiating positions when faced with a recalcitrant EU. Perhaps it didn't, and she was just a perfect example of the Peter Principle. In any event, her two years were a complete waste of time.
Now the politicians who have little or no connection with the majority that voted to leave the EU have decided to ignore the majority and act instead on what the ruling elites have always wanted--to remain in the EU or be as close to it as they can wrangle.
By bollixing up a clean break with the EU, if the party elites, together with the EU, force a second referendum, it's pretty clear that they never intended to honor the first one.
3
What’s the fear here if what you are saying is true? A second referendum should go the same way as the first one
@vineyridge...Best synopsis i’ve read to date! The best thing which the Prime Minister could do, would be to resign on the first of November to show solidarity with the people who voted to break from the EU but have been cheated by their own politicians! The left would scream “hallelujah” and the right would utter “good riddance” but in the end, it would be them who are the rotten ones. Boris world be the only one with conviction.
Should GB leave the EU? If course not! But what has the EU become? Not what the majority of the people wanted; not what all the European States wanted. It has become too socialist! Not that socialism is bad in its entirety—that’s not true, but too much is too much! It needs to be ratcheted down a bit, more like 30% socialism to 70% capitalism, instead of what appears to be the goal: the other way around!
What do you think will happen when the NYT and Co. get their way for a population-only vote for president? Well, the USA will turn more socialist and as the level of it rises from approximately 10% where it is now to 30% we will truly rejoice in the wonderfulness of that and the NYT and Co. would deservingly pat themselves on the back for a job well done!...but then the system would go for more and more and more. That’s how humans work! We would fall into the 1984 abyss of too much socialism just like we did with too much capitalism which Charles Dickens cleverly wrote about in the 1800s. Let’s face it, humans are dumb!
Health care that works the same as the fire department and the Navy?
I’ll take it.
Speaker Bercow smells like a rose, the Prime Minister like “the leavings” in the Royal Mews. It takes months for manure to compost and turn into the nutrients needed to make a rose. Mr. Johnson has but a few weeks.
3
I'm very confused- May tried to get her deal through 3 times and failed. Opposition leaders and many conservatives are now freaking out about a no deal scenario and trying to prevent it. If the EU and May were unable to find other realistic alternatives for Northern Ireland, what made people think they'd miraculously find a new one by October 31? To me, it looks like everyone played politics with Mays deal (It wasn't a clean cut with the EU and blah blah blah) and now real decisions have to be made. I feel sorry for Britain. They really are in a mess. May obviously tried to be realistic but lost against her do or die conservatives and a Labour Party that wouldn't budge an inch - and now they've ended up with Johnson and no time left. I feel the EU won't extend this time around. They are watching this train wreck and knowing nothing will ever get done so they better end it now and move on.
8
Your President makes Boris Johnson look like Winston Churchill
4
that's grasping at low hanging fruit but it doesn't look like Boris has anywhere near the political stamina of Churchill in any event.
2
It’s been weird watching both Britain and America set themselves on fire due to no reason other than sheer ignorance and stupidity.
28
Elect a clown, expect a circus
26
Boris Johnson ... He's no Churchill, is he?
6
For Boris 'Call me Trump' Johnson, the end is near. Good riddance.
14
I’d still swap Boris for Donald. Better hair.
5
Boris Johnson is like Pakistan: stuck between a rock and a hard place perpetually, much of it due to his own doing. As they say in high elegant places: Aiaiaiaiyyo! 😉
2
I hope the ethical UK politicians who stood up to Boris will be an example to our lot of cowardly Republicans!
18
that train already left the station
2
The fact that opposition rejects a snap election only goes to show that Mr Johnson's Brexit strategy is a win for the 'people'. The opposition know that the public are frustrated with their blocking efforts to exit the E.U., and are sure they would lose a vote adding yet more weight to Boris's strategy.
Caorbyn and Bercow are a disgrace
1
If Johnson does nothing.... or the EU doesn't agree to an extension, doesn't that mean they will crash out?
3
If Johnson does nothing he will be breaking the law.
If the EU refused an extension then yes, but notwithstanding Macron’s posturing they are very unlikely to do so for Ireland’s sake (certainly not the UK’s).
2
Hey USA, look what can happen when you stand up for your constituents!
3
He said do or die. The Parliament chose to kill him. The American political establishment should take note.
14
Weird. It’s almost like people DONT want to go down in history as being responsible for catastrophic financial meltdown.
Who’d have known, eh Johnson?
11
No, no,no. Great Britain will flourish like never before and Johnson will be worshipped as the new Messiah. For sure :-)
3
From the outset, there was no plan for a clear Brexit. Not even a strategy. If there was one, there was one person who would have knowledge of it. Boris Johnson, had no plan, and no strategy. He watched silently, offering no recommendations, to his predecessor, whose proposals were thrice rejected.
Members of Parliament are realizing that Mr. Johnson has not been serious and sincere with his promises. Hence his continuous defeat and rejection in Parliament.
With the EU being the largest trading block for the UK, the MPs are concerned of the negative impact, a No Deal Brexit would have on the country. Why Mr. Johnson does not recognize that is unclear and difficult to understand.
Boris Johnson has created all this mess, and difficult to know where this will all end.
We only know what is going on in Parliament, and the angry rhetoric from Mr. Johnson. What we do not know is what the constituents feel and are thinking. Fresh elections and a new Referendum will show the revised thinking. Looking from the outside, nothing should go wrong for Great Britain. The people and country deserve better, rather than have a hopeless debate on short sighted policies.
7
5 days in Commons 5 major defeats - 21 Tory MPs = 0 majority 0 election 0 plan for Brexit 5 weeks of Parliament suspensed
7
The Brits are quicker than we in the US are.
6
Very fortunate for them, if they have a notion of their next possible approach to a high value resolution. It still appears to me they are fighting over who has ultimate power over the sinking ship. Good luck!
3
31st October will be celebrated as the Liberation Day throughout Europe.
By the way who is Boris Johnson, Britain's newly-crowned prime minister of the United Kingdom?
Boris Johnson was born in New York City - and was a U.S. citizen for decades—until the IRS caught up with him - and Boris Johnson only recently relinquished his American passport when the Internal Revenue Service chased him for unpaid taxes. As a dual citizen, the IRS required Johnson to file tax returns on his earnings, even though he lived outside of the U.S., and to pay the relevant taxes.
While Mayor of London, Johnson chastised the U.S. embassy for its millions of dollars in an unpaid city road tax known as the congestion charge, which is designed to tackle emissions. - - At the same time, Johnson was outraged when the IRS demanded from him capital gains tax to be paid on the hundreds of thousands of dollars in profit made in the sale of his home in North London.
However, his spokesman later confirmed that the matter was dealt with, and The Financial Times reported that Johnson had paid the amount owed before heading to the U.S. to tour cities in his role as London's mayor, sparing him any embarrassment at the airport stateside.
The following year, Johnson renounced his American citizenship, U.S. Treasury Department filings show, and, along with it, any chance of becoming the U.S. president once he was done leading the U.K.
Newsweek, July 23rd 2019
https://www.newsweek.com/boris-johnson-us-citizen-irs-born-new-york-1449974
Brexit is a nonsense.
6
This probably beside the point, and I don't want to appear disrespectful of the important matters facing the British Parliament--but I have to ask, what's up with Boris Johnson's hair?? It seems like he's being disrespectful by failing to practice basic grooming protocol.
2
The fact that the British system has been able to curtail a rogue leader is further proof that we LOST the War of Independence. We cut ties with Britain and instead of Queen Elizabeth II as our Head of State, we have Donald Trump - and a failed system that permits him to run roughshod over all that decent people hold dear regarding justice and liberty while in Britain they have de-fanged their monster.
10
If he has his way, the UK, not Johnson himself, will die in a ditch. And sadly, Corbyn has no intention of towing it out.
It will be up to a patriotic cross-party coalition, each side breaking with its leader, to fix this suicide pact that is Brexit. A second referendum is the only solution.
3
They could buy Greenland.
4
A question for all of you who are way ahead of me on this: what happens on Oct. 31 if there's no UK/Europe agreement? Does Brexit kick in automatically? So on November 1, will the Irish again face hard borders (and worse) in travelling through their own country, and non-British staff in the U.K. abruptly be out of work?
The short answer is yes. The EU starts checking British goods and the Northern Ireland border returns. Freedom of Movement ends and the status of Europeans living in the UK becomes unclear. In short it will be a big mess, but one the people voted for.
3
No I don’t think so. The new law says if Boris cannot obtain a deal with the EU by Oct 31, then he must seek an extension. Only if the EU rejects the extension will brexit kick in.
1
Crikey. Do you guys actually read the news?
The short answer is no, because Parliament has just passed a law effectively making a no-deal Brexit on Oct 31 unlawful. (See copious coverage.)
Nor did anyone “vote for” this mess: No Deal was not only not on the ballot in the 2016 referendum, it was explicitly ruled out by all the Vote Leave principals very much including Johnson.
1
If there's a single situation other than that exhibited in the third world on a daily basis that makes the U.S. government look merely incompetent, it's Great Britain. They appeared to have gotten what they asked for, Brexit and the architect behind it, but now they seem to have forgot the question. They overwhelmingly rejected Theresa May's attempts at a deal as "not enough", then they turn to a guy the EU is NOT going to roll over for and now it seems Parliament tha voted him into power don't want to deal with him either. It begs the question: "What do they want?"
10
National suicide
2
In the words of Bill Clinton, it depends on what your definition of “they” is.
This is how Trump's first few days in office should have gone. The people of Britain should, for the moment, be proud.
20
Johnson is the cartoon example of Trumpian populism.
Danced about on the strings of the puppeteer, Dominic Cummings, he has blindly careened from disaster to disaster while claiming without any evidence whatsoever that his "strategy" will achieve a Brexit that exists only in the fantasy realm.
Cummings is the model of the advisers of the current crop of populist rightists/fascists/Tea Party members. Nihilistically blasting through convention, tradition, decorum and even law to achieve their ends. Democracy is but a system to be hacked or gamed for advantage. Thus we have groups all over the world who see Democracy as the easiest game to rig for their malicious ends.
We now are in an environment where any means is tolerated for almost any goal.
The Democracies of the world have come to an inflection point. It is at this moment when we find we love it enough to save it or are too indifferent to care.
15
This is such a well written article. Thank you.
3
Like the US, the Brits chose their leader by proxy rather than by popular vote. So you have an unpopular president and prime minister acting against their national interests. So much for the superiority of Western democracies, when its two best icons are in constitutional crises. We should stop telling other countries to democratize, we have no moral authority to be preachy.
19
@Merlin -- The US does not have a proxy vote. It has a majority vote weighted to assure regional interests are not ignored. There is a difference.
The British vote was an election of a national leader allowing a vote to only 90,000 or so geriatric extremists of one party. That isn't a proxy for anybody either. It is just power to a weird little minority to serve its own interests, which it may not even have served.
2
@Mark Thomason
The idea that "regional interests" should supersede the will of the majority is absurd in a democracy. As we have seen in American politics, those "regional interests", some of it based on ignorance, are holding up real progress.
Republicans in the current Congress received far fewer votes than Democrats, yet they are in control of the Senate. That is election rigging, pure and simple, and we condemn other countries for doing this. I'm just saying if this is our system, then we should stop preaching to other countries.
6
Sorry Mark, it's inaccurate to say that the US has a majority vote simply because votes that are "weighted to assure regional interests" distort the overall tally so severely that it has resulted in an America that is now clearly controlled by minority rule.
One example:
Due to the Senate's perpetual abuse of the filibuster, it now takes not 51, but 60 votes to make a majority and pass any legislation. As a result of the "regional weights" you mention, when applied to the 60-vote threshold, it means that with 2 voting Senators per state, it takes the combined votes of Senators representing only 11% of the American population to STOP, override, or propel any and all legislation.
That’s not a weight, that’s a millstone, so we shouldn’t be so smug with our British cousins as the American distortion of the purpose and application of "majority" is just as much an abuse of democracy as the English proxy.
The sad fact is that the governments of the two most prominent English-speaking democracies have simply lost the ability to do basic arithmetic. Two plus two no longer equals four, it equals whatever the minority of voters say it does.
5
Our supine Congress could learn a thing or two from the Mother of Parliaments about defending democracy.
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What does it say about the PM that his brother quit the government rather than support him?
Those 21 MPs who defied the PM are putting their country first. Too bad Rep. Amash is the only Republic who has had the courage to defy the stable genius and put America first.
16
Scratch an Englishman and you get a person convinced he is superior to anyone, certainly any European. This is how they got here. It goes a long way back, served them well in WWII, no more. A little everyday common sense and humility would have prevented Brexit. One can hope now they will be taught, but I doubt it.
21
@Jean louis LONNE -- They WERE superior in 1940.
In their fine tradition of "muddling through" they have gotten themselves into a fine mess now. Their various faction seen all to have blundered, at the same time.
Still, muddling through allows for one faction to get its act together and win the day. Who that might be is not at all clear, but there are certainly a lot of choices from which to surprise us.
2
@Mark Thomason
Quite. The British (I am not one of them) do have a tradition of muddling through. We shall see where we are in 2 or 3 years' time. My prediction is a withdrawal deal very similar to that negotiated by May but with sufficient small tweaks to allow Johnson, after a period of posturing, to trumpet victory. Then the future relationship needs to be established...
3
Welcome to neo-democracy, government by, of, and for the swamp; neo-politics in which populism is viewed anti-democratic.
You can't make this up.
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@Bhaskar -- Yes, government by elite as "democracy" is what is pushed on us. It is absurd. Unfortunately, the populists are rather absurd too, right now.
There are several ways in which this can end, a whole range of options starting from ignoring the referendum and staying in the EU, going all the way to a no deal exit. The problem is that any solution requires a majority in the parliament, and there is a solid majority in parliament which will oppose every possible solution.
A no deal brexit? A majority opposes it.
Accepting the deal on the table? A majority opposes it.
A second referendum? A majority opposes it.
Staying in the EU? A majority opposes it.
Renegotiating a better deal with the EU? Sorry, not going to happen.
A new election for the parliament will do nothing to change this sorry state of affairs.
There is only one possible democratic solution. List out all the options in a single parliamentary vote, and force all members to vote on all the options using ranked choice voting. Stop letting the MPs get away with voting against everything. Force them to actually vote for what they want.
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@A Cynic -- This turns ranked choice voting into a vehicle to force through something that has no majority. Those who set the list then get their "least bad."
There is good reason to force a majority, either by forcing a new option, or by electing a Parliament with support for an existing option.
If there is no good option, then frankly face that.
This has a built in assumption that ranked choice would of course not allow to win the option opposed by those who suggest ranked choice. "No deal" as the winner with only 30% would be even worse than this.
17
@A Cynic
I think you'll find a majority doesn't oppose staying in the EU. Numerous polls indicate that the leave campaign currently s at best around 45%
30
The EU-administration has all the mandate to uncouple the UK from the EU. It definitely doesn't require a consent of a British institution like the parliament. Naturally the House can enact laws as they will but the EU is the master in its own house.
10
You can understand a lot about the Brexit project from the character of the people who lead it and their tactics.
I hope and pray the general election will see a Labour / Liberal Democrat government which brings sanity and honesty back to British politics.
Otherwise the UK is in a lot of trouble.
3
"The suspension, which the Johnson government announced in principle less than two weeks ago, was denounced by critics as a transparent, anti-democratic effort to sideline Parliament while the government forced through a no-deal Brexit."
It's instructive to watch the video of the last few minutes of tonight's drama: when the House of Lords' ceremonial enforcer ("the Black Rod") came to demand Bercow's presence for the end of this session, Bercow was surrounded by opposition members trying to prevent him from leaving the Commons. He made a speech acknowledging the authority of the the Black Rod but decrying the irregularity of this suspension. It can't be lost on all, as it wasn't on Bercow, that Johnson is purging his party in a most ruthless way. This hasn't helped the situation within the Conservative party and ultimately in the UK, which lies in shambles.
6
Such referendums are usually appeals to populist emotion and not sense. Here, we twice dodged the bullet--very narrowly--of Quebec separation. I remember the last Quebec Sovereignty campaign-- a pathetically naive series of slogans such as "peace is possible", "jobs are possible" etc, if only you voted for Quebec to leave Canada. It seems when you stir certain people up, you can convince them of anything. And at such times, there seems very little concern over just how costly these kinds of decisions can be. A divorce, even the most amicable, is costly at best. A divorce on this scale will have ramifications for years and years to come, and will only enrich those who are well sheltered or who have degrees in Constitutional Law.
4
@CM - your example reminds me of a smaller one - back when Staten Islanders decided they were done with being part of NYC. They were fed up. They were leaving. They were going somewhere better.
Then NYC said: "OK, here's what you'd owe us first for the infrastructure."
And NJ said: "You can leave NYC, but no, you're not joining us, thank you."
End of going it alone for them.
1
The David Cameron scheme to milk more concessions and privileges for the EU-Britain backfired nastily. Now, the country will be uncoupled from the European Union without a mutually ratified exit-agreement. Well, the cheap English theatrics is coming to its end inside the European Union and perhaps the fourth vote on the EU-dictated terms finally gets the support of the majority seats in the House of Commons.
4
The fundamental reality is that David Cameron failed to advance British leadership within the EU that could have rationally addressed real British problems at the time; and he failed to make the case for Remain. Then Theresa May (a Remainer) did her best to live with the result, but also failed to provide effective leadership within the EU.
THEREFORE, during prorogation, leading Conservative MPs should establish through the media that there will be a vote of No Confidence against Johnson when they return, which Johnson will certainly lose, if he doesn’t resign first; and thus, Johnson should be granted an extension by the EU until early February (after January elections), on the proviso that Johnson resigns his position of PM after getting the extension. He will do that, or he will face a certain loss of the No Confidence vote.
In the wake of all of this, new elections will certify what UK polls attest: that no majority of citizens wants Brexit.
Or: Parliament can vote in mid-October to repeal the invocation of Article 50, normal British-EU relations continue, and the caretaker British PM schedules elections that are convenient for everyone.
Britain can find leadership to deal with the actual, relatively minor problems that misleadingly motivated the provincial Leave movement.
The general solution is working productively within the EU. It’s that simple—if Britain can find the leadership.
1
They British can seek the intervention of UN to divide their country into two if they don't know how to do it themselves .
2
Perhaps the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland, remaining in the EU, will tell Little England where it can go.
3
Hasn't the EU stated categorically that there will be no more extensions? I am having trouble understanding the actual difference between Boris' plan to leave the EU without an agreement, and the alternative of asking for an extension and not getting one.
4
The hard Brexit attitude that BJ and Co displays a complete disregard for the security and welfare of the Irish of Northern Ireland who voted to stay in the EU. It's like BJ will treat them like second-class citizens and disregard their concerns, a historic attitude of Empire Britain. As poetic justice, I would like to see Northern Ireland secede from London. The Scots, who voted to remain in the EU, are watching and will take from a hard Brexit as their cue to tell London "bye-bye". Then BJ and Co can talk about Britain as an island and have it all to itself. What short-sighted and small-minded thinking. Hail, Britannia.
19
Boris Johnson is boxed in, legally required to ask for a three-months extension. After lobbying European governments for an unlikely veto, he could put the three months to use.
Johnson could ask members of parliament to clearly state in writing all the changes they want in May's deal. Suppose 20 groups or so of like-minded MPs make proposals, Johnson could ask them to hold a number of public forums in all districts to get the public's concerns included in the proposals before taking them to Brussels.
He could request that each group state in their proposal how it would benefit all the European governments to promote acceptance by the EU politicians, and to sign proposals letting Brussels see how many votes would go with acceptance of each proposal.
Should Brussels accept enough proposals, they could have a deal. But, if Brussels' politicians stiff arm the British people, in effect stomping them with their boots, it could sour the British even more against Brussels than in the 2016 referendum.
Meanwhile, Johnson could ask the civil service to inform the people about all their Brexit preparations and procedures.
Thus, Johnson has no need for snap elections, nor rerun referendums ruled out by David Cameron, who warned before the vote, the "result determines the outcome."
7
@Enrique Season is closed for extensions around this subject. There is no bone to be gnawed anymore.
Boris not getting his way is very, very satisfying.
Finally, a man with no morals or professionalism pays a price.
Thank you Britain.
ps - I sincerely hope John Bercow got a deal to perform on the West End. I'd pay to see that.
19
I must say that Boris is upstaging Donald in “winnigs,” stupidity, and bad hair.
When Britain collapses, maybe Ireland can ignore its pleas for help. And then give a token bailout while demanding that the Brits build useless walls using stones.
5
I used to think it was in the water- but the UK is way, way out of pipe reach from the USA. So if it's not the water what is it? Is some unknown agent being aerially transported, having originated from Mar Largo or the White House? It just is really hard for me to believe that what has caused the stupidity, polarization, avarice and lack of statesmanship and civility here, has been so easily transported to the UK. Maybe it's the undersea phone lines, you know electromagnetic vibrations on the brain pan..............there must be some explanation for this disease.
11
@Unbelievable Here is one:Putin and the money laundering done with london bankers that will be affected in 2020 by some legislative move done in the EU...
5
Maybe bojo is getting what he deserves, but if Trump has taught us anything, it is not to gloat or count chickens.
5
Finally, the British show us they are not as dysfunctional as our own Republican party...although that is not saying much. Unfortunately our dysfunction is now engraved into gerrymandering, a Senate of rural white men and the electoral college of racism. Perhaps I'll move to the UK.
4
@Will It will be better to move the GOP out of your way in 2020; this should greatly help your Country.Best
1
The Queen has a duty to maintain good government. She can dissolve parliament and force elections. This can be over in a couple of weeks. Do it.
3
As bad and ineffective as Johnson is, he's still better than Trump. Now that's a tragedy.
7
I’m sorry, I couldn’t read the entire article because it is so wrong.
Amber Rudd quits things three times a day. No one cares. It’s not news.
Johnson is playing this brilliantly. Research your work. Johnson is busting out of the EU, no deal, by a simple memo stating such Oct 31.
Watch for it, globalists.
2
Well, one thing is clear: Whether you agree with what Parliament did today or not, at least their version of the Senate has the ... I’ll say “gumption” to shut down the ill-advised impulses of their leader. Perhaps we could send Moscow Mitch over to London for an internship; I think he could learn something.
13
@DLM sent him to Russia and cancel his passport!
Sir Winston famously said that "democracy is the worst system of governance except for all the others". This was a rhetorical flourish. More seriously, when a system of governance doesn't work, it could easily lead to tyranny.
@Diogenes No government conceived by man ever works, fortunately its almost over. The Anglo-American world power goes to its destruction fully functional into the symbolic lake of fire, this means neither the US nor the UK fail prior to the end of this system of things.
Following Brexit since 2016 and all the turmoil why not have another vote. No deals - leave or stay. At least now the British know the issues and have seen past the lies told to them in 2016. If Brexit wins that's it - go. If not that's the end of the issue and Britain can move on.
6
Your suggestion is reasonable but it looks like a large enough section of the British people have motives other than simple economics to want a leave: pride, stubbornness, anger, and a desire for chaos and destruction.
1
I feel very strongly both for and against the current teapot tempest, whatever it is.
1
I’m a tad concerned with all the spiking of the American football regarding Boris’ apparent total defeat of a week. While his party is twenty some odd members smaller, he now has a significantly more pure BREXIT-acquiescent Conservative party. And while I am a die-hard Remainer, I’m concerned the delay of a vote may even give them time to recruit/maneuver/possibly even absorb the BREXIT party while Labour, Lib Dems, and the former Conservatives slice up the Remain votes.
A snap general election vote will decide absolutely nothing.
My 2 cent solution would be a 2 question referendum:
1. Understanding what you have learned since the previous vote, do you think Great Britain should leave the E.U.?
2. If yes to BREXIT, would you like a hard BREXIT or the deal that was previously negotiated?
3
Forgive my ignorance of British politics, but how did Johnson come to power if every one of his strategies and policies is immediately rejected? Someone must have thought he would make a good leader.
1
@Allison
I think all sane people in the Tory party knew getting the country through Brexit was a tough ask.
Boris is not sane.
1
@Allison
The PM is selected by the voting party members, not the electorate.
You can imagine that voting party members are very partisan, and perhaps thought that Boris was the best of a few possibilities.
Boris is in trouble because he decided to try and limit the ability of MP's to do their duty to their country by proroguing parliament.
They wisely chose to limit Boris instead.
If Boris' overriding goal is, as he claims, to respect the will of the people in the 2016 referendum by negotiating a Brexit deal with the EU and then getting it passed in UK's parliament, why did he and his ERG colleagues vote against PM May's deal three times, ensuring its defeat?
A: they refused to accept the agreement's 'backstop' provision re the Irish border. That provision is the ONLY way to secure the UK's departure from the EU without recreating a hard border on the island and threatening to destroy the Good Friday peace accord that ended the violent Troubles in Northern Ireland.
The Irish border problem has been there from the outset of the Brexit debate. Yet no one in the leadership of the Leave campaign had the honesty to admit that in choosing to leave they would have to resurrect a hard border on the island, and if people refused to do so, they should vote Remain. They all said "oh no, we'll preserve the Good Friday agreement and maintain a soft border." That was the only way Brexit could win.
When May was compelled to agree to the backstop to get an agreement with the EU and the Irish Republic, what did Boris and his colleagues do? They voted her deal down, dumped her, and then demanded that the EU remove the backstop. No deal. That is why the UK is in the divisive irresolvable mess it is in today.
330
@Wally
Fully agree + add May's general election that killed her working majority leaving them subject to DUPs (and eventually ERG) demands.
Had she not called such election she probably would have been able to stick with having the border along the Irish Sea (as per original version of the backstop) that while offensive to the DUP would have not bothered any other member of her conservative party (given that they do not care what either NI or Scotland voted for)
14
@Wally Why European does not pay attention to Japan's discharge of nuclear waste water?
@Wally The willingness of the Leavers to throw Ireland under the bus (NI as well as the Republic) is one of the most disgusting aspects of this whole fiasco.
44
Thinking about David Cameron and the referendum in 2016. Obviously, from the beginning, there was no plan. Three years later there is no plan. Now, they've just got the shambles that is Boris.
408
@Agustus Agustusson
Legally, the referendum was non-binding (though the government at the time promised to implement it). There is no obligation on the part of anyone now in government in the UK to enable Brexit.
69
@Agustus Agustusson
That referendum was ALWAYS known to be nonbinding. Theresa May added 5he disaster of treating it as binding to the Cameron disaster of calling for it in the first place.
But there was no choice of what kind of separation would happen. For every two EU citizens domiciled in the UK, there are three UK citizens domiciled in other EU countries. What becomes of them, they who were not permitted to vote in your precious referendum?
32
@Agustus Agustusson - It's worth treating this empty Brexit paradise that was promised as something long past its sell-by date. The promoters of it, the ones in government, have proved themselves completely unable to accomplish the thing they sold. Kinda like the GOP and their total inability to replace Obamacare after making sooooo much noise about it.
Brexiters had their chance - they voted down their own plans too often. The British people haven't gotten what they were promised, time to move on.
40
Can anybody explain why the UK/Brits couldn’t hold another referendum about leaving the EU?
This time with all the honest data and analysis about the catastrophic effect on the economy, the N Ireland vs republic of Ireland border, and the other conundrums facing any Brexit.
Maybe then the Brits could come to their senses, before they make themselves a “hasbeen” country whose glory lies all in the past.
357
@Kathy
They absolutely could and might yet. But enough interests have aligned to date to resist it.
-the Conservatives traditionally represent the upper middle class who would be pro-trade and pro-EU. But they called this referendum, and when they got a result they didn't expect, they invested considerable reputational capital in insisting they would respect the vote, as a means of staying in power. Many are now stuck toeing this line, although personally they are Remainers. Add to that the elites and donor class for the Tories (the 1%.... remind you of another country?) have now gained control, and they have neither the inclination nor legitimacy to go back and risk a new referendum result they don't like.
-Labour's support comes from diverse areas of Leave and Remain. They resisted going all-in either way as a means of keeping their options open. To my understanding they continue to play both sides, though they appear to be succumbing to immense pressure and moving slowly to the Remain or at least New Vote position. But they're not there yet.
63
@Kathy
On top of Richard's comment, when would the Referendum game end? The best of three? (as there was already a referendum to enter the EU + the one to exit), The best of five?
The UK is a representative democracy these are not questions for referendums as they have way broader impacts than can be considered with simple yes/no questions. This is why referendums are not actually prescriptive in the UK.
Modern representative democracies that formally include referendum are/have been aware of the problem which is why often they are only allowed to be used to abrogate laws and cannot be used on topics regarding international treaties
18
@Kathy
Because the Brexit vote forced the EU to plan a new strategy in order to survive. I'm not sure the EU would (or could) take the UK back...
12
The battle inside the British Parliamentary system is excruciatingly complex, in this case it conduces to one extension to another. Sometimes it's not clear if the issue here is Brexit as such or a battle for wining the coming election whatever the date and whatever the Brexit result. Europeans are already dumbfounded to the top and not willing to extend the terms for a final agreement anymore. And the world... well, is totally flabbergasted.
3
At least the British Parliament actually realizes it's a powerful institution, with responsibility, and does not bow down to the PM. The Republican congress could learn something from them, especially where the President is actually a separate branch.
35
@Neal While the vote may be considered a victory for sanity and common sense in Britain, there, as in American with the GOP, it's tragic to me that 293 voted for insanity and utter lack of common sense.
3
Well, back to square one for Boris. Maybe now he knows what Theresa May went through. She's probably smirking while sipping a nice glass of wine somewhere.
17
One thing is extremely clear: There is no plan for no deal Brexit.
It is as mythical as Unicorn, or Cerberus.
Boris is just playing PM role which in any normal condition he should be doing mediocre desk job.
Trump+ Boris converted our world Dickensian nightmare.
17
Hope for thinking people
8
Sending my thoughts and prayers.
4
Maybe the seemingly heretofore toothless American House of Congress will take a lesson, in its parallel universe, grow some fortitude and stand up against an undemocratic leader overloaded with his hubris, and outmaneuver Trump.
18
@Bryci
I've been thinking the same thing all day. Unfortunately, Mitch McConnell, aka Puppetmaster, is enjoying his power too much.
3
@Bryci In America, the House has control of the purse strings to a large extent. The Senate however has control of everything else. With a corrupt Mitch McConnel and a corrupt GOP and a corrupt president, the House is limited in what they can do. If you don't think that's true look at the judges the GOP has installed while in power.
2
To understand Brexit you have to look at the median salary in the UK. people are way poorer than in Spain or Italy.And much less educated , even more accultured because there is no community sense like it exist in Spain or Italy.
And not speaking about food. Everywhere in the UK is American fast food present, in every small town , people are fat and out of shape physically and mentally. Drugs are everywhere as well as alcoholism.
In Italy or Spain, even in poor regions people eat well, good fresh products : meat, fish and vegetables, no fast food.
15
@JPH
I live in Vermont and although long-retired and now living alone cook REAL food daily. But having spent several weeks in both France and Spain, not for the first time but just recently, I can state that people there also eat fast food and many of our chains of junk food--- greasy non-food ---exist there as they do here.
3
@JPH yes, Britain has been ravaged by the globalists more than most.
That’s why they are rebelling.
3
@JPH Absolutely raving!
3
Like Trump, flamboyant Boris Johnson probably never expected to win the Brexit vote, nor the PM. And it shows. Once again, tonight he had nothing constructive to offer, beyond cynicism and discomfort in the knowledge that there’s not there, there. Since last week’s loss in Parliament, Amber Rudd resigned from his cabinet. It’s not good when even his own party and brother don’t have confidence in his ability as was demonstrated in the Today’s Parliamentary repudiation.
On the positive side, may the force be with Boris as he fries to neuter Nigel Farage, and may Boris be replaced after the inevitable next elections.
6
How could a majority of Brits think it would be easy to negotiate a divorce? Had they not any real life experience prior to voting their greed and ignorance? What is needed is a new referendum with a very simple question: stay the course, or leave without a deal. Anything else is clearly impossible to achieve. Perhaps recent events have beaten enough common sense into the electorate to avoid a disaster in the end.
125
@Sigi
Agree. How could Brits think it would be easy. The way too many Americans bought into the Trump lies and
half truths and learned too late. The Brits believed all the lies.
30
@Sigi
For about 20 years, the popular press in the UK excoriated the EU, blaming all problems on the pernicious EU politicians. What the average citizen didn't realize was that 14,000 or so laws, innumerable product standards, food and medicine regulations werw all based on the UK knowledge. The Brexiters forgot to mention that the UK was indebted to the EU for much policy. So, of course the general population thought that the EU was stifling them. And they voted in anger and based on lies and misinformation. Sound familiar?
35
@Carl Cargill you bring up an excellent point. Thank you for sharing it. In fact it sounds terribly familiar to a Canadian, where Québec nearly separated from Canada because, in large part, the separatist provincial governments of the time had for the longest time blamed every problem on the rest of Canada, Anglos, money and other ethnicities. Anyway, everything that wasn’t Québecois.
15
Johnson might also contest the bill that became law today as ultra vires: in theory he represents the Queen in parliament, and the Crown's conduct of treaty-level negotiations with foreign powers remains subject to the royal prerogative (or executive privilege) unconstrained by parliament.
This will get even more interesting as 19 October approaches.
2
@Martin This would be unprecedented - at least since the reign of Charles II. Maybe Trump can get him a secret subsidy, like Louis XIV.
1
One might think the Labour party would be smart enough to find a less polarizing figure to lead them than Jeremy Corbyn and take their chances with the general electorate, but they seem stuck on remaining the minority at all cost.
15
The brits are delusional. All along the europeans have said and are saying even now they are against any further extensions and yet the brits are tying themselves up in knots over passing a law seeking this very thing. They really are ridiculous.
13
@Bis K They've said they'll allow an extension for a "democratic event". They'll give us one last go if an election or referendum will make up our minds.
Knowing our luck, we'll get another inconclusive result and hung parliament.
5
@Tom you’re giving credit to people who have attempted to exterminate themselves twice in the last 100 years.
Pay them no mind. The decision Britain makes will be the right decision.
Looks like TrumpJr Boris tried a trumpian authoritarian play, and like our own wannabe Mugabe, found out there is something called democracy that limits their much-dreamed-of power grab.
22
I’m going to start keeping my eyes on ditches a bit more while driving. You just never know what might be laying in it.
35
Wow, this is so exciting. It's like watching an ice cube melt. I can't wait till the Brexit sequel starts its next season this October. What will it be, 'Brits gone wild', 'Food riots in the streets of London', 'A change of government (big wow), 'Ireland reunites', 'Scotland hits the road to independence', ‘No Brits topless sun bathing on the Riviera’, ‘Britain leads the world in electric auto production’, ‘The monarchy finally get tossed’ ? So many possible plot and story twists are possible it will make Game of Thrones look simple. For the 10 to 20 UK fans that care, this will be very exciting. As for me here in the USA, the only thing that I would like to see is that either another plebiscite referendum is held and it reverses the first or that Parliament stands up and simple says, “Guess what, we as your elected government have decided that we are not going to leave the EU.” Now either of those scenarios would deserve a true, big WOW. Otherwise, I don’t know what’s going to happen, I don’t care what’s going to happen and what does it matter to me if the people of the UK want to walk away from their neighbors and the world and shrink into oblivion.
11
It is humorous to watch politicians sticking to their petty little egos rather than the good of the country. That sounds so familiar. Of course, it's lot less funny when it is happening in your own country. Boris is nothing more than a two bit politician masquerading as an Oxbridge-educated intellectual. There is a reason why ego is one of the seven deadly sins. He is finding that out the hard way.
24
If only the US Republican-controlled Senate had the integrity and courage of the British Parliament...
78
@Discerning
Don’t hold your breath
7
the fact that Brexit was put up for a vote? was an abdication of duty by the politicians. once upon a time we elected leaders to LEAD not pander.
15
While all that unfolds appears to be business as usual, the most disturbing development is the immanent departure of Speaker Bercow, a pillar of sanity and stability throughout this Dickensian Drama.
7
There is a new EU accounting law starting in January 2020 for overseas tax shelters (e.g. "Panama Papers")
THIS IS THE REAL REASON the RICH WANT BREXIT and must therefore get the UK OUT OF EUROPE.
93
@William
Right.... which is why it won at a vote by the people???
I understand you don't like the rich, but your comment makes little sense.
Brexit is primarily happening because the less well off want change
@Martin. Believe William is correct. Same game played there as here. One issue voters whipped up on emotional issue(s), voting against their own interests, thereby promoting an oligarchic agenda of which they are painfully unaware.
Like US farmers, and all those who did and will feel the bite of our handout to billionaire tax bill, those wanting "change" through Brexit will find that the "change" that comes is not worth the economic destruction it eventually causes them. They just prefer not to know it yet.
At least some in Parliament are not complete sell outs like our own Senate GOP.
11
The rich, via the news outlets they own, encouraged the less well off to see the EU as the source of their problems, often through outright lies. These lies were believed. So in the end it was the rich who did this.
9
I watched the mini-press conference in Dublin BoJo and Varadkar. BoJo has a deserved reputation for mendacity but he's leagues distant from Trump in the liar pantheon. It was an immensely sad experience to observe him and the MPs who support him in the HOC today. A large faction of Tories are now Tea Party-style Rightists. Marie Le Pen, Salvini, Orban types.
Astonishing to contrast with Varadkar, honest, straight talking, no lies. An immense accomplishment by Ireland with its small diplomatic corp to have the unity of the 26 Remain states on the side of peace in Ireland, the support of Speaker Pelosi (she addressed the Irish parliament, toured with a bi-partisan delegation the Border counties, left Trump, Bannion in no doubt, no trade deal if the GFA is threatened). Maybe, in astonishing irony after 800 years of London subjugation of Ireland, maybe Dublin will rescue Britain from a Brexit catastrophe. PS: Optimism is in my bloodstream
53
If you missed today's statement by the Irish PM it's a must. Such a pleasure to listen to a well-spoken, educated, informed, intelligent person speak...ah, I do so remember the days when the US had such a one to speak for it, only 2.5 years but it feels like decades and decades. Best part though: he tells Boris he's willing to play Athena to Boris' Hercules. Despite Boris' much touted educational pedigree, the jury is apparently out on whether he understood the implications of the reference.
"In Greek mythology, Athena dramatically intervened after Hercules went mad and killed his wife and children, knocking him out to prevent further bloodshed."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/sep/09/varadkar-pledges-to-be-athena-to-johnsons-hercules-in-apparent-classical-dig-video
69
@Rw I watched part of the taooseach's speech but apparently not this bit. Lovely!!! And how apposite! Thanks for telling us
3
Agree, brilliant speech and reference by Ireland PM
4
I don't usually take kindly to the British Government because of their historical imperialism, but this is a prime example of what should happen when a leader goes rogue. Still waiting to see the 'thoughts and prayers' republicans and 'christian' GOP to grow a spine and stop Trump from doing the massive damage to our country.
29
It's keeping illegal, disruptive migrants out of Britain which is at the heart of Brexit and the ascendency of Boris Johnson.
I would imagine that if Britain could avail itself of the economic benefits of EU membership, without getting stuck with EU rules as to immigrants and border control, that they'd enthusiastically go along with that.
I don't blame a country for wanting to exercise border and immigration control so as to preserve its national identity and not have to deal with incompatible migrants who would dilute the prevailing culture.
The nation-state Britain is for the British and those certain select foreigners whom they choose, in their sole discretion, to offer residency and eventually citizenship. This is not something that should be forced down their throats by Germany and Merkel as a condition of EU membership.
Germany already messed up Europe twice.
Here we go again.
5
@MIKEinNYC - gee, the British are perfectly entitled to get what they want regarding border and immigration control. All they have to do is give up the benefits of membership in something bigger than their tiny nation-state as they see fit, with all the West Indians, Indians and other former empire types living in the old, shrinking center of the Empire.
Only children expect the right to keep what they like and ignore what they don't in a relationship. Well, children and the worst kind of adults...
Of course, the "nation-state" will probably then lose Scotland. Guess they could then ban those awful Scots, too.
7
Economic migrants cause far fewer problems for the UK than UK football fans do for the continent, and they're there for much less time...
13
Wow
I wish South Africans, Native Americans, Indians and the rest of the world that the Brits and other European countries ran rough shod over had thought of this and kept invading colonists out to not destroy and loot their cultures.
Like Trevor Noah said - after telling the world know through their imperialism “we are superior and the best” now they are surprised that immigrants want a taste of their “bestness”.
Britain deserves every bit of this self inflicted shenanigans.
9
I wonder if the Brits are as tired of all the "winning" under BoJo as we are of all the "winning" under Trump?
31
@Paul-A
Are you sure you didn't mean to say "whining?"
6
At last and at least the British MPs have spine, and can slap down their boorish prime minister (though they don't have a very good track record in handling the total Brexit fiasco).
The American Senate, by comparison, is a docile herd of sheep, doing whatever their boorish president tells them to do.
Proud of the Brits for finally standing up and taking a firm stand!
40
So it turns out the Boris Johnson was less of a genius disguising himself as a fool than just a fool.
I wonder if he is considering that his ultimate return of years of years of self-humiliation and the total abandonment of dignity has turned oh to be exactly 0.00 GBP.
7
If only half as many Republican Senators had the manhood in their BVDs as Britain's Conservative Party Parliament members do, Trump would be holed up in the Oval Office or at Camp David refusing to come out. And tweeting out a crapstorm of lies and insults.
Not much would change, in other words.
22
What I would like to see is Boris Johnson and Donald Trump in a row boat with only one oar. Or maybe even better with no oars.
15
@Bob
...or maybe with Al Neri...
1
The real winner in all this is Putin. It’s really quite impressive the amount of havoc he has been able to cause democracy in England and America (and elsewhere). Brexit just like Trump’s election was at least partly engineered by Russia’s GRU. And look at the chaos it has caused! Even if the Brits manage to quell the storm, the costs have been heavy and likely long lasting. Democracy is obviously only as strong as the institutions set up to protect it - and, more to the point, the commitment of the people to protecting those institutions. Many Americans still seem not to get that. They dismiss the meddling as inconsequential or even a fiction. Putin must love it, seeing those Americans give in for such little investment.
40
Is it possible that the pro-brexit MPs who want a better deal are actually passive-aggressive remainers who are saying fine, we'll leave if you make it painless for us, knowing that won't happen?
2
For as long as I can remember, the word “kakistocracy” had been heard primarily at spelling bees. Now with Trump, Johnson, Bolsonaro, Salvini, Duterte, et al. it’s become a commonplace. Contrary to popular wisdom it isn’t the cream that rises to the top these days.
35
I just Googled "most famous dwellers of the Tower of London"
- 12th Century: William, Count of Mortain in 1106 as a prisoner of war.
- 20th Century: The Kray twins were the last people to be held in the Tower.[9] They were imprisoned for a few days in 1952 for failing to report for national service.
One wonders if Dominic Cummings is relieved he has not lived back, back then.
6
The British lawmakers are supporting their country first. GOP take notice, the rest of us have.
44
This is an absolute must-watch video to hear it the way it is happening:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07mvjvw
BBC can still deliver it with humor but... the entire Brexit is...
Embarrassing.
Cutthroat.
A debacle.
7
Needs a BBC Viewer .. only available in UK.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-49615852/brexit-five-days-in-five-minutes
(this video-link should work outside UK as well).
2
President Trump would do well to observe what is befalling his autocrat-in-arms. It appears that democracy in the UK is more mature than that in the US. More than a dozen Conservative MPsbput country above party in voting with the Labour. In contrast, the Congressional Republicans are areshamelessly backing Trump's agenda.
48
This is how democracy should work, where one person is not allowed to hijack the process. Where is the courage here among the GOP to stand up to the bully?
70
@Lucas They are his temporary work staff. They work for him, not their voters
11
Here is a lesson to the US house of congress. learn from the members of parliament of both parties in the UK. The leader, be he a Prime Minister or a resident is not above the law or the votes of representatives of the people. Vote for your constituents not your head of government. Def and deny Trump.
22
It looks like the British Parliament has the spine that is so visibly lacking in the (Republican) US Senate to hold the executive accountable.
52
@Joel Sanders
They must not have as paralyzing a system of lobbyists.
2
There is no comparing Brexit and the political turmoil surrounding it with either (a) anything this side of the Atlantic now, or (b) anything that side of the Atlantic before. Don’t even try, NYT scribes or commenters.
Johnson is not Trump, the Conservatives are not Republicans, the issue is not , Labour is not the Democrats, Leavers are not the Tea Party, et cetera, ad nauseam.
1
Sure they are. All of them. Conservatives the world over are the same nihilistic bunch, using fear and misplaced nationalism to get their way among a populace duped by their conservative lies. Exactly the same thing happened on both sides of the pond. Only our conservatives are still refusing to call our traitor president to task.
22
@Xoxarle Some how the part of your post where you explain WHY you hold the opinion you do was cut off?
6
Hehehe. Lenny said it best in The Simpsons, "So long dental plan!"
9
I feel very sorry for the UK. It looks like it will end up crashing, no matter who is in power. The Tories lead in all the polls,but are hugely divided on the when and how of Brexit. Labour is led by a man even less liked than Johnson and is determined to stay in the EU ... unless it isn't. The whole of Parliament is disordered and the citizens loathe the body as a whole. This is sad every way around.
127
@John
And those who voted for the fairytale promises of Brexit have no one to blame but themselves.
27
@John I think the chances of a crash out before the general election are very slim though the consequences would be terrible. My worry is the outcome of the election. The Tory lead will be reduced but it is vital they do not form a majority government otherwise the chances they go for a 'no deal' Brexit are much increased.
9
@John Jeremy Corbyn, leader of Labour Party, has always been one the EU's strongest critics. He is in the record saying the EU is a "capitalist club" and he has deep rooted animosity towards the EU and Brussels. It is ironic he is the last line of defense against UK crashing out of the EU. But do not mistake his current position on this debate that he will stay in the EU. He mainly wants to be in power and leave EU with a withdrawal agreement.
5
I would not be surprised that the similarity between Johnson and the president goes beyond stupidity and looks. He actually maybe the missing brother of the president, he was born here in USA. Is this pure coincidence..LOL
60
@Change Face - that would be a stroke of luck for Boris now that his actual brother has quit politics because he can't trust Boris.
2
Does BoJo actually HAVE any knuckles left at this point?
14
Yet another pompous, arrogant dullard attempting to impose his personal beliefs onto the masses. As we are suffering here in the States, the “elected” leader is attempting to ride a populist wave, fueled by a sense of entitlement and potential loss of status into a movement of the masses with no real plan for the future. Unlike our Senate, the UK parliament has stepped up to exert control over a potential despot.
313
@Ric
The craziest thing is that few think he actually believes in Brexit as anything other than a vehicle for his personal opportunism.
30
@JSD
In this respect it sounds like Boris Johnson and our President are cut from the same cloth.
25
Does it feel as weird to the Brits to say Prime Minister Boris Johnson as it does for Americans to say President You-know-who?
124
@Agustus Agustusson
And with no majority in Parliament, with almost no chance of regaining one. Which means he can’t govern. Fancy that.
23
The only solace I take in this entire mess is that our British cousins make me feel less alone. The entire world has gone mad.
252
Have no fear, dear voters; Boris has a cunning plan. . . .
17
As the Speaker of the House of Commons said after Boris' first vote, "Not a good start, Boris." What is amazing is that con men like Trump and Boris have so many citizens who support them as they destroy their countries.
466
@jas2200 "What is amazing is that con men like Trump and Boris have so many citizens who support them as they destroy their countries."
Well, the countries are truly not working out well for that share of the voting public. It's unfortunate that these kinds of clowns are the solution that appeals to those feeling so disregarded (I was going to say disenfranchised but clearly they can vote...)
41
@jas2200
They're seething with anger and resentment over past slights and perceived insults and would glady sacfifice America for their petty greviences.
And, they call themselves "Patriots."
68
@jas2200 The Speaker of the House of Commons, after Prime Minister Johnson went down to defeat in his first vote, most certainly did not say, "Not a good start, Boris." Such a comment would have been an affront to the neutrality of his office.
The person who made the comment does not appear to have been identified in the press. To my own ears, however, the voice sounded a lot like John McDonnell's, the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer.
20
Looks more and more like a Breaks-it.
45
Would love to see the GOP revolt and join the Democratic Party in stopping trump in his tracks.
211
@Kathleen Brown
...
You must consider that many (all?) GOP politicians are compromised either by the GOP leadership, or by Putin, or both.
33
@Kathleen Brown
I'll settle for 21 Republicans who are honorable enough to put honesty, truth, science, conscience, and the national interest before Dear Leader!
22
@Kathleen Brown
Rebel? They’ve been building towards someone like Trump for decades. Trump didn’t come to abolish the GOP, he came to fulfill it.
5
He knows how to win.
5
Who? Certainly not Johnson. He only knows how to lose, gracelessly.
4
As an Englishman — though I’ve now lived in the U.S. longer than in my homeland — I congratulate The Times on its coverage of the Brexit crisis. Stephen Castle in particular is a very good writer and presents many of the nuances without getting too convoluted. Many thanks.
360
@Matthew Dowling
I second that statement.
11
I also appreciate Castle's crystal clear writing.
3
Why doesn't the writer call it what Brexit really is, which is a 'tax avoidance for the rich' scheme. The US tax cuts fleeced money and services and created greater wealth inequality in just 18 months erasing decades of progress towards equality. Brexit is more of just the same.
88
This is a shambles. It seems as if all the politicians have contributed to this unholy mess. All of them seem to be trying for as much gain for their own selves as possible, while Britain circles the drain.
I don't know if it is possible, but several months ago I made the suggestion that the Queen, as the head of government, should dissolve parliament, ask the EU for a 12 month extension, then call for new elections for an entirely new government, with a referendum on Brexit as part of that election. When the new government was seated she should address Parliament from the Throne and instruct them that the time for political games was over. She expected them to act for the good of the nation, to move the country towards fulfilling the will of the people, whatever the results of the new Brexit vote was. If this did not happen she would dissolve Parliament again and keep doing so, until a group of people who could work together was elected.
16
@Bruce1253 It seems to me that the Queen and the Royal Family studiously avoid getting involved in the actual governing and politics of the country. Instead, as figureheads of the government, they focus on charitable and non-controversial efforts, in order to protect their wealth and prerogative from political attack. Imo they are not going to jeopardize their standing and privilege, even if Brexit threatens to take the rest of the country down.
9
@Bruce1253 In my humble opinion, too many people blame ‘all’ politicians. No doubt there are some bad actors but there are also many who are genuinely doing what they believe is right for the country. The main issue is the absence of a mandate for any specific flavor of Brexit. Not all problems have a neat solution.
11
@Sean
You are correct. This would not be neat, it would upend the political establishment of Britain for decades, but it would be better than driving straight off a cliff, which is where they are headed now.
1
Call for a nation referendum that chooses between:
(1) No Brexit
(2) Brexit without a deal
(3) Brexit with a deal that passes parliament's muster
Without clear direction from the people, political calculations have destroyed rational action.
14
Another bad day, another defeat…
All I can say is, this could not have happened to a more deserving politician, unless his last name were Trump.
199
@common sense advocate
"Trump could stand on the fifth avenue...." Nuff said!
1
The fact that the UK still has a chance of avoiding Brexit, especially Johnson's no-deal Brexit, comes down to a bunch of conservative moderates who actually refused to support their deranged leader.
A salutary lesson not only for GOP lawmakers, but even for Democratic leaders who seem to think more of political calculation than doing the right thing when deciding how to deal with trump.
21:00 EDT, 9/09
84
So instead of the cake they were expecting to have and eat, they just got themselves a bitter drought. And at this stage, I have no sympathies left. Not for the instigators of this whole mess, not for those who didn't go out and vote and not for those who now sit in Parliament wringing hands about what Johnson is planning.
Don't forget that those are the same people who loudly rejected May's deal with the EU thrice. THRICE. It's gotten to the point where a group of countries led by France, as reported in the NYT, are openly against giving the Brits another extension, only for them to waffle on for another three months. There's a few ways out of this, but none are ideal.
1. The UK accepts May's deal and drops out.
2. Those parts of the UK that wanted to remain are allowed to do so, which effectively dissolves the UK.
3. Northern Ireland is given special status or rejoined with the rest of Ireland, thereby dropping out of the UK.
4. The UK rescinds its request to leave and stays in the EU.
I don't think Parliament has even considered the possibility that the EU might end up refusing another extension when they passed the law preventing Johnson from crashing the UK out. At this point at the latest, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what'll happen.
89
@LG Absent another referendum, CAN the UK "rescind" its request to leave the EU?
4
@Palladia Yes, because the referendum was non-binding. The actual legally binding action was the issuance of Article 50. The European Court of Justice has ruled that the UK can revoke Article 50. An act of Parliament could end Brexit.
114
@LG
Informal contacts were made between parliamentarians and the EU to ascertain whether or not an extension would be granted. The answer was yes, probably.
1
The major EU economic powers have already come to the conclusion that a no-deal Brexit, while involving some pain, is preferable to agreeing to Brexit terms that are favorable to Britain, because then other discontented EU members would want the same treatment. Also, German and French corporations are looking forward to some extent to an EU market without UK competition. And then there is the perplexing Irish border problem. So, between British intransigence and continental wariness, I think there’s little chance of a good solution other than another British referendum.
37
Tactically it seems that the EU might want to hold firm on its demands from Britain in a Brexit, while extending an open-ended extension of time to remain in the EU, until they accept. That would remove any leverage Johnson might have by refusing to negotiate an extension before the Oct. 31 deadline.
19
This is what can only be described as an omnishambles.
The UK did not vote for an uncontrolled, disorderly, no deal Brexit at any cost.
At some point there is going to have be another referendum or a Brexit election to sort this mess out.
It’s not for Boris to ram through a shambolic Brexit against the best interests of the country and contrary to the will of Parliament and the people.
Should it come to pass, Brexit will be economic suicide. All the more so if it’s on a no deal basis.
322
@Andrew
The UK voters were fed a batch of stuff they should have had better sense than to swallow, by cynical manipulators. They were led to believe that there could be no downside to this secession.
Now, we see that there is no upside.
38
@Andree
´The UK did not vote for an uncontrolled, disorderly, no deal Brexit at any cost. ´
The brexit hooligans were talking about Norway or Switzerland as a model of the UK’s future relationships with EU, very detailed ´deals’ elaborated over many years....
3
@Andrew As you suggested, the Prime Minister is trying to have an election; normally that would be the response to the government’s losing an essential vote. But the lame duck (or, in English terms, chlorinated chicken) Parliament is blocking both that and Brexit, rather than letting voters decide.
1
Johnson is another fast talking, demonizing self-promoter with no ideas and convictions save to serve himself. From now on, let’s just refer to the past three years in the US (under Trump) and the U.K. (under Cameron-May-Johnson) as the age of incompetence.
Hopefully it is not lost on anyone that they are all “conservatives?”
655
@Michael Thanks for that MIchael; I too, am (originally) from Boston, and we all have to get out and vote these "people" out of office, or we'll be living in a
third-world country faster than one could believe.
82
Oh, history will have names for it, alright; and they'll be less kind than that, to all concerned.
33
@Michael
I don’t see folks like AOC as much different...totally disconnected from reality.
2
The "Brit Trump" (as our own president calls him) is driving the UK's economy OFF A CLIFF...(!)
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There’s always room at the bottom.
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@Dcoder44 exactly..... it may be "lonely at the top"...... but how would we know??
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I thought there couldn't possibly be a more inept Prime Minister than May but Boris is in a league of his own when it comes to sheer incompetence.
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@Lord Snooty
Why blame T. May that Parliament rejected her plan three times?
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Compared to this clown, May is like Lincoln and Einstein put together. Our version-of-same has a similar talent for making all other presidents seem brilliant, classy, selfless, honest and decent by contrast.
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@Lord Snooty
May did her job.
She put forward plans that were pretty reasonable.
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"We’re going to win so much, you’re going to be so sick and tired of winning'"
-President Trump "A long time ago"
Boris must be of the same mold, he seems to be following in the the footsteps of that other leader on the other side of the pond.
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Sounds like a good day
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