So easy to threaten war when you and your children are not the ones who will fight it.
25
"Do as I say and not as I do" is bad foreign policy.
9
I would like to see tankers resume passage through the Straits of Hormuz while accompanied by military ships or overhead aircraft. If any Iranian vessel approaches it gets blasted out of the water. Send a message to the ayatola and his moolas in their little 7th century costumes and headgear.
12
So this is Trump's fault?
Notice this didn't happen to a USA flagged tanker because Iran knows what would happen next. Goodbye Nuke facilities. Maybe goodbye to some of their Oil producing facilities.
Instead they pick on the weakest of the weak sisters: the UK who has the weakest leader since Chamberlain. And what is the UK's response? Oh my! That's not nice Iran. Could you pretty please give us our tanker back? If not we're going to throw a big fit and say bad things about you.
So will Iran pick on a German or France flagged tanker next? Heck no. Germany and France are some of Iran's biggest supporters and admirers and are willing to give them anything they want just to do business with them.
Trump is the only leader with enough guts and fortitude to stand up against the Islamic terrorist nation of Iran. And you know what? The USA is perfectly suited to do just that. We have no need for their oil, Israel has our back, and we the military to take out from above whatever we need to. We need no boots on the ground because Trump doesn't have the idiotic idea of nation building on his mind.
11
Tit for aTat, Tanker for Tanker. No escalation here. Don’t mess with Iran except you’re going all the way. It’s not a banana republic. Trump is not in their league. Intellectually.
12
I am not surprised Iran has retaliated because it is so easy to seize an unarmed tanker.
I have sailed thru this Strait - on an LNG tanker to make a delivery from Qatar to India.
At night time especially, there is a lot of traffic of small fishing boats coming very close to big tankers. Many of these boats - at least a few years back - were smugglers hauling stuff from Arab states like Dubai - to black markets in Iran.
Our own tanker came close to a small boat that was not observing the protocol of keeping to unmarked lanes in the Strait.
We had to swerve a hard right - so hard that coffee mugs rattled off the bridge and crashed.
So, this so called accident that Iran has used to seize this tanker - is no surprise.
2
Here a question that's been bugging me since this crisis started: Who actually pays for the deployment of American forces (mainly Navy, but also Air Force) to the Gulf? If past figures are a good guideline, that must cost millions of dollars every day!
Now, I know the answer: we do. What I haven't heard anything about is whether the countries that benefit the most from that deployment have contributed and are contributing? And, by those countries, I mean the very rich countries in the Gulf that make oodles of money selling oil and gas to the rest of the world. How much have Saudi Arabia, the Emirates and Kuwait contributed? Or Quatar? Has any of them even just said "Thank you"? If those countries would really be our friends, they would have offered to offset the considerable cost for Uncle Sam holding his hand over them.
6
This just shows the diminishing power of a once great Nation. Britain is finished.
8
We're running out of storage for our excess bomb and missile inventory, so another war is needed to free up space and replenish the weapons of mass destruction. The military-industrial-oligarchic complex is driving U.S. international policy. I know people want to personalize everything and believe this has something to do with Russia, Iran and the U.S., but it's really just weapons business plus testosterone. The element of long term human suffering really doesn't enter into the equation. Suffering at the individual level is not something the oligarchs and rich investors of weapons corporations think about. Nobody spends too much time thinking how much of their 401(k) or index funds is invested in Lockheed Martin or Raytheon.
9
How is Iran’s action an “escalation”? The UK seized and still holds an Iranian tanker two weeks ago. I’m sure they’ll trade.
8
As this is quite clearly a response to the seizure of an Iranian tanker by British authorities in the straits of Gibraltar, I would like to also learn more about the exact circumstances of that seizure. Were both tankers (the Iranian and now the British) seized in international waters, what are the international laws that allow seizing foreign vessels traveling in international waters etc? @NYTimes, if you can provide additional information, please do so. Thanks!
1
It's not a British tanker it's a privately owned corporate tanker. If they would like to pay for the government to use it's assets then sure but otherwise good luck on your own.
4
Here a question that's been bugging me since this crisis started: Who actually pays for the deployment of American forces (mainly Navy, but also Air Force) to the Gulf? If past figures are a good guideline, that must cost millions of dollars every day!
Now, I know the answer: we do. What I haven't heard anything about is whether the countries that benefit the most from that deployment have contributed and are contributing? And, by those countries, I mean the very rich countries in the Gulf that make oodles of money selling oil and gas to the rest of the world. How much have Saudi Arabia, the Emirates and Kuwait contributed? Or Quatar? Has any of them even just said "Thank you"? If those countries would really be our friends, they would have offered to offset the considerable cost for Uncle Sam holding his hand over them.
2
The Middle East never cared about the U.S., until oil was discovered there and we, with Britain, started messing with their internal affairs.
If, in the 1950s Iran had deposed Eisenhower and installed a Shah here, we would probably have had a revolution and ended up with a hardline religious government too. (Trump is trying to do that now and he doesn't even have an excuse.)
When humans grow up, they are supposed to develop empathy and be able to put themselves in someone else's head. They are supposed to see that we are all equals with the same needs, and that communities help each other fill these needs.
The Enlightenment was 300 years ago people. The Constitution is a product of the Enlightenment not the bible.
When one person or group tries to dominate others, you get war, exploitation, and slavery. When we peacefully form community and negotiate honestly, we get free trade and we all learn from each other.
But there are always people like Trump who have zero empathy (except maybe to manipulate the fear of others) who prefer war and exploitation to honest and free trade, so they undermine negotiations, and threaten violence to exploit others.
The Iranians were coming along. The pro-democracy forces had successes to show the People, so Trump came along and pulled the rug out from under them, so he could start a war in October 2020.
It won't be an (October) surprise, but it will be horrifying if the U.S. let's him do that to us, just like Dubbya.
Peace.
6
I think Iran made a tactical mistake by seizing the wrong vessel. Or perhaps not. Iran might be forcing the other five countries to put pressure against Trump who foolishly withdrew from the Iran Deal. Let's be honest. Iran's provocations have been a reaction to US provocations under Trump. I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here.
2
Somehow, I get the feeling that the Republicans want another war.... The economy is doing fine, so what a perfect time....
5
Does anyone else believe/think we are getting ready for a war with Iran? We will pull in Western allies and Israel and the Saudis. Or perhaps the other way around.
1
I recommend everyone, including Trump, take a close look at a map of the Straits of Hormuz. Most of those straits are Iranian waters. All other nations consider the twelve-mile limit to be a guide to the limit of their territories but, in fact, they all but defy Iran's claim to most of those waters. I lived in Bandar Abbas for three years, including much of the revolution." I intently watched the straits for activity, legal and illegal. You can see the other side of the straits after the heat of the day clears off the haze. It is nearly impossible to stay in "international" waters. I'm not defending Iran's actions but it will be next to impossible for the US or Britain to prove Iran is in the wrong. Add to that, the sectarian Iranian government, and male population, despises females and male corrupt leaders, e.g., Trump who broke the United States' word, and you have a recipe for disastrous escalation of hostilities. They will not deal with Teresa May or Angela Merkel, as they are female and, therefore, weak, or Trump, who is clearly an hedonistic, immoral sinner. Our only best option is to wait for "respectable," in the eyes of Iran, leaders to take the reins of Western leadership as soon as possible. Europe will beat us to the punch as May and Merkel cede their powers. We can only hope the US will elect an honest president in 2020 who can win Iran's respect so casually abandoned by the Oaf-in-Office. I know, that sounds a lot sexist, but, look at it from the other side.
7
What passes for our foreign policy is shameful at best, and has been for some time. How can we afford to continue to be the bullies of the world when our own house is crumbling?
5
I think that old saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." my apply to many of the commentators for this article. Is the President hated so much that many are willing to make a friend of Iran?
Perhaps we need to love American values for justice more than we hate the President.
4
Britain seized an Iranian tanker at Gibraltar at the command of the US. They said it was because it was breaking sanctions. The US command was to Britain who is our lap dog. The tanker was in Spanish waters and the sanctions are EU sanctions. The US order was not to the EU or to Spain.
Iran is strengthening their hand to get their tanker returned.
4
I'm starting to see a pattern here among America's antagonists:
1. Cause some disturbance. Wait for Trump to issue some fiery statements threatening war and the like.
2. About face. Start lathering the president with the praise and flattery that he's addicted to. Invite his administration for a historic "summit."
3. At the summit, lather him with more praise as the cameras roll and flash while his aides scramble behind the scenes to come up with some sort of deal that doesn't make their boss look like a total caving fool.
4. Promise a whole bunch of terms that neither side is actually interested in honoring, then sign a tentative deal that throws our weaker allies under the bus. Make it like it's some kind of unprecedented breakthrough, even though the last three administrations did more or less the same with better results and less drama.
5. Watch as Trump returns to DC with higher poll numbers for averting the crisis he helped create. Iranian leaders get to sit back and enjoy another year of peace and tranquillity no matter how much uranium they enrich, since the Trump administration will want to maintain the fiction that the Dealmaker outsmarted them.
3
So what else is new? When u get to my age nothing surprises me. Born at the end of ww2 learned about the Korean War in the 50’s, served during the Vietnam war in the 60’s, watched the Iran hostage situation in the 70’s. How about 9/11 and all the conflicts since still going on in endless wars. Stay tuned this is the way the world rocks! Since man first entered the scene he has made war with other men. Read the history of war and see the wonderful destruction he has caused and will continue to do.WW2 alone killed 50 million people. Call me a cynic but this is nothing new.
4
Wouldn't it just be easier to widen the Strait of Hormuz? Knocking the tip of UEI doesn’t look that tough and use the fill to build some more manmade islands (or as Berkeley says, personcrafted) off shore from Dubai.
1
The UK has no significant military assets in the region. So far has received no significant support from its NATO allies. Does limited business with Iran and is not dependent on Iranian crude. All told the UK is not a major player in President Trump’s determination to prevent Iran from ever obtaining nuclear deliverables. Times have certainly changed since the UK along with the Soviets were our major allies in the fight against the Germans. Now its America versus the Iranians. As befits the world’s only Super power. The UK and every other nation remain mere spectators.
2
Hmm. The European Union not only failing to confirm the UK's justification for seizing the Grace 1 in Gibraltar but now actively rejecting it. At the same time, a lukewarm American response to a British problem.
The EU's not going to come to Britain's aid - the Union is NOT (and never has been) a military alliance. It HAS tried to achieve integration of its armed forces but has been thwarted by its members - principally the UK. You rep what you sow, I guess.
Were the seizure of the Impero to be an act of piracy in the Gulf (Somalian bandits, for example) the EU's support would be there. The EU has already deployed very effective anti-piracy assets in the region. But no, the Stena Impero has been seized by the government of a sovereign nation under the authority of recognised jurisdictional legitimacy.
I can see the Grace 1 being permitted to leave Gibraltar's waters anytime soon.
2
Bolton, Pompeo and the rest of the Neocons have to be salivating.
10
@Chris, Yes, the warmongers are licking their chops to butcher Iran, but I would love to see Bolton, Pompeo and the rest of the Neocons convince Trump's base that paying $5.00 a gallon for gasoline is a patriotic act. A disruption of global oil supplies will put GOP donors and voters in a foul mood come election time, so I double dare them to start a war.
5
The story comes from the perspective that Iran has made the first aggressive move rather than the UK which seized and holds an Iranian tanker. This is all part of a slow deliberate effort to build a justification for eventual military action. If the Iranian action is illegal then so is the UK's prior action. Additionally, it is a reaction rather than action. The first aggressive action was the seizing of the Iranian tanker by the UK.
Both the UK and US governments could use a little war at this time to take attention away from the profound implications of Brexit and the US debacle (hard to even call it a government in the true sense of the word at this point). We the people are going along for the ride whether we like it or not.
18
Sadly, the corporate-media will just repeat the claims of Washington and it’s allies - with every new military misadventure, comes huge military sector corporate profits.
6
Yeah, you have to read down the article to get to: “Tensions between Britain and Iran spiked earlier this month when the British military impounded an Iranian tanker near Gibraltar on suspicion of having violated a European Union embargo on the sale of oil to Syria.
This should have been at the top instead of the bit about a drone being downed by Americans.
7
Coupled with a chronically lying President and the ever popular hunt for the non existent WMD I believe everyone but the US. And Britain. Sad.
19
It is a sad day when many in our country believe Iran rather than POTUS. A sad day indeed. I long for the Obama days when our country was respected and his word, our word, was accepted as true. Obama, where are you?
11
@javierg Iran just commandeered a British tanker. The British and French governments have demanded the release of the tanker which they state was in international waters and provoked by Iranian fishing boats to avoid a collision with them. What does that have to do with Trump in any way, shape or form?
9
@paul. Do you think this escalation has nothing to do with Trump’s unilateral withdrawal from the JCPOA, and the severe impact his increasing sanctions has had on the Iranian people? As with the border crisis, Trump unwarranted actions have created the crisis. What exactly did he expect Iran would do, roll over and submit to his demands? As with most things, Trump has no strategic plan, and the mistrust is so intense that one miscalculation will lead to another unwinnable war.
And American is better off, how exactly?
12
@paul You failed to mention the tanker that was commandeered by the British...
1
British officials have presented another lie when referring to EU sanctions towards Syria, as the reason why they had lawful right to seize the Iranian ship. Those EU sanctions only apply for EU member states, EU based/registered companies, suppliers etc.; Iran is not in the EU. The UK has no legal right to seize the ship (referering to EU sanctions), even if the tanker does indeed sail to Syria with oil.
13
We can't sit idly by and let Iran sabotage oil facilities, seize tankers, and interfere with freedom of navigation in the straits of Hormuz or any other international waters. Many commentators favor appeasement but that will just convince Iranian mullahs they can get away with causing more trouble. The UK is our ally. Saudi Arabia is our ally. Israel is our ally. Here is a key concept of international realpolitik some don't seem to get: help your allies when your enemies harm them or you won't have allies for long. We don't need to invade Iran, but when Syria was accused of using poison gas, we launched a few hundred Tomahawk missiles. A response along those lines that sinks half of Iran's Navy might get the message across.
4
We have no diplomats in the region; we have no fully appointed Sec. of Defense; we have foreign policy advisor and Sec. of State that make Dr. Strangelove look like a pacifists...and a President, who, at this very moment is hitting the links--what could go wrong.
13
I am reminded of the proverb WHAT IS SAUCE FOR THE GOOSE IS SAUCE FOR THE GANDER. A six-nation nuclear agreement had been negotiated in which Iran agreed to tight controls and inspection in return for the lifting of economic sanctions. Trump unilaterally pulled the US out of the treaty and commenced to impose increasingly harsh economic sanctions on Iran. The other signatories sought to maintain the nuclear agreement, but especially the European signatories adhered to Trump's sanctions, since they feared US retaliation against them
So what should Iran do faced with Trump's bullying, threats, and sanctions? As I predicted on May 6th: STRAIT OF HORMUZ! Incidentally, what legal right does Trump have to ramp up crushing sanctions on Iran? DIdn't he welsh on a solemn agreement? The poor Brits are again caught between a rock (US) and a hard place (Iran).
6
Pride goeth before a fall.
So Iran is upset that the UK took one of its ships, so it took one of theirs. Pride and revenge: feels good, feels great -- if you're a child.
Have we not, in four or five millenia, learned how to deal with conflict or disagreement? Have we no diplomats, wise in the ways of international relationships and mechanics? No psychologists or sociologists or historians available to resolve this latest dustup?
I understand my young grandsons being unable to resolve their conflicts, but I can't do likewise for rational adults.
England, America, you're better than this, or you should be. After all you've seen and done, have you learned nothing? Where are the adept and efficient problem-solvers when you need them, only in court?
(I realize that it's easy to armchair-quarterback this, and that I couldn't untangle this mess, but there are many people who can. How about we talk ourselves and Iran off this ledge rather than meet on the battlefield and let god sort it out, again?)
5
What could the Brits be thinking to allow their merchant ships to proceed in known pirate infested waters without being able to defend them against attacks. I get it that a foreign crew has no motivation to put themselves as risk for the UK, but at least for the Hormuz passage put a platoon of troops on the ships with Stingers for the aircraft, TOWs for the speed boats, heavy machine guns, and an air controller to call in the fast movers. But, my gosh, don't meekly surrender like the American diplomatic hostages in Tehran. Have some backbone and some firepower to back it up.
3
@THOMAS WILLIAMS
This was a seizure by a sovereign government - one claiming legal legitimacy.
Most European nations already deploy anti-piracy assets in the GULF - individually and as part of EU combined operations.
3
I blame GWB. By attacking Iraq and destroying its military and infrastructure Iran became the victor. This is why some people don't trust the United States. Friends today and enemies tomorrow. Had Saddam remained in power Iran would never be doing what it's doing currently. It now sees itself as the master of the Middle East. GWB started a stupid war and now we are seeing the consequences. The last paragraph of the article is very telling. That's like us saying the Gulf of Mexico belongs to us because it's contiguous to several of our states.
While Iran is more of a powder keg today, our greatest threat is Trump and his bungling, bullying ways. The pullout from the agreement with Iran was retaliation against Obama and it has immediate consequences. Our war rightfully is with Trump and his sycophants. We should not give him any credit when one of his blunders works out. He feeds on the attention and it puffs up his over sized ego way too much. Get rid of Trump and don't put another one like him in, and we still can recover from the Trump swamp.
5
“We’re not looking at military options."
Iran is playing a game of chicken - and so far, Iran is winning.
It's time to speak the only language Iran understands: a strategic strike on Iran's nuclear production.
Boom - do it and get it over with, then lift sanctions with the warning: if you start up nuclear production, we will do it again.
Quit dithering and Just Do It.
2
What Lt. Gen Robert Ashley, top military intelligence officer, told journalists at the Aspen Security Forum in Colorado, makes sense.
Iran is a rational player and its actions seem “proportional in nature.” Most of all “they aren’t looking to go to war but at the same time they are looking to project strength.”
Yet neither Iran nor the US can control the vagaries of a conflict.
The seizure of a British tanker puts the UK in a dilemma. It remains committed to the 2015 deal, from which the US withdrew, while taking the US side.
British Royal Marines helped seize an Iranian tanker off Gibraltar earlier this month on suspicion of carrying oil to Syria in breach of EU sanctions.
This week, the UK said it would facilitate the its release, if Iran gave guarantees that the crude loaded on that vessel wasn’t bound for Syria.
As long as the situation doesn’t get out of control, the drama in the Strait of Hormuz is Iran's act of flexing muscles, The problem is that on one knows how it will end, and what regional players like Israel and the Saudi-led coalition might do next.
4
The fossil of an Ayatollah said “The country’s proud defense capabilities are a result of the pressures and cutting ties with foreigners”. Great defense capturing a defenseless commercial ship. Maybe they can raise the bar now and grab a luxury yacht.
4
And once again, our Liberals automatically take the side of a country that sponsors terrorist.
Another reason President Trump will be re-elected.
6
@Dr. John It would appear you have not been keeping up to date of who was responsible for the latest actions of Iran.
6
Do not lose sight of the fact that these are consequences/symptoms of the actions of one person.
DJT!
It is dangerous to have an uneducated narcissist leading a nation, but then again a majority of the US electorate knew that in 2016.
Vote 2020
Vote like your vote matters!
9
The British took a Iranian tanker and now the Iranians took a British tanker. What do you expect the Iranians to do? Hopefully the United States doesn’t get hoodwinked into another useless war.
3
Amazing! The top ranked posts under Readers Picks on this blog side with Iran.
When dealing with DJT I have to agree.
I have more faith in the leadership of Iran than I do with DJT, pompeo, bolton, mitch....
Iran may be our enemy but at least they do not promote blatant, boldfaced lies daily.
Sad
Vote for adults in 2020!
11
Iran's move may be considered a product of the "Trump effect."
Iran figures, "If the US president gets to be stupid, arrogant, brazen, and norm-breaking, then why not us?"
Indeed.
2
So what did Britain think would happen once they impounded an Iranian vessel? Britain goes from dumb to dumber in this day and age. Did the west think Iran, with the advice and coordination from Moscow, would somehow not be encouraged towards confrontations. This is part and parcel of putinism. Disrupt the west by any means possible. And, Iran is the perfect proxy. Trumpism on the other hand is a game of chicken.... The paper don, could not find his backbone which went missing years ago. The ultimate symbol of impotency, mr paper showed his resolve when he let Iran get away with downing our drone. Putin said to himself, this is just what I thought, trump is chicken and spineless.
1
We have been here before.
(1) The USA decided to attack Vietnam – there was a reported incident in the Gulf of Tonkin (there was no incident); than non-incident was the excuse to bomb North Vietnam and expand a vicious war killing millions. The USA lost that war.
(2) The USA decided to attack Iraq – there was a reported issue of WMD (there were none). The USA attacked Iraq with Shock and Awe and UK help and killed millions. The USA did not win that war.
(3) The USA decided to attack Libya – there was a reported incident – true but not so important. The USA attacked Libya with UK help. Libya was completely wrecked and is now a haven for Al Qaeda and Europe has suffered grievously
(4) Beware the next misstep by USA with Iran. We are observing the warming up actions with UK help .
8
Wasn’t it just a few weeks ago the left claimed Iran didn’t put mines on tankers? Conspiracy theories Trump did it? Haha.
4
The JCPOA was not a treaty ratified by the Senate- merely an Executive agreement the US was under no obligation to continue under a new President. Actually it has less official status than a formal Execution Order. The Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action happens to be weak in several respects and is certainly not comprehensive. The sunset clause delays but does not permanently bar development of Iranian nuclear weapons. The inspections clauses allow Iran to hide nuclear facilities on military bases. The JCPOA did not include a full listing of existing Iranian nuclear facilities. It does not preclude development of Iranian ICBMs. Trump was absolutely right to pull out of the JCPOA and to impose sanctions to achieve a better agreement.
5
@Caleb Mars Yet, with your justification of Trump's actions against Iran may cause many of us to ask this question-should Trump start a shooting war with Iran and "boots on the ground" are needed will join the fray-or just be comfy in your armchair quarterbacking the conflict?
That agreement, seen as much more than you or Trump as satisfactory by other countries, was better than a shooting war.
4
Stena is a Swedish company. So they seized Swedish property, not British.
3
@Lars Krog. Ownership does not change its port of registry. Which is British.
1
@Lars Krog
The Impero is registered in London.
Most tankers have complex multinational ownerships. Your principle doesn't work.
1
Tit for tat. You illegally impound my ship, I will impound yours. Serves the Brits right for being the poodle of the US. Also shows how things can spin out of control.
8
Why do Republicans in positions of power always want to go to war? Answer: They make money from it...through their ties to defense contractors, and other profiteers. They are all in on it..even the people the media touts as honorable like Gen. Mattis and Gen. Kelly. The are ALL on the take. All corrupt. Every. Last. One.
Today we have private contractors being paid over $700 per day for each border refugee in their "care." That's enough to house everyone in the Ritz Carlton and feed them prime rib dinners. Yet these people are being detained en masse in cells so small there isn't even enough room for everyone to lie down on the cold cement floor to sleep. There isn't enough food to keep them from hunger. There isn't even access to clean water or toothbrushes and toothpaste or a shower to bathe or a change of clothes -- not even after 50 days of detainment. These are clear human rights abuses. People will of course get sick and die under these unsanitary, cramped and deplorable conditions.
Yet the Trump Administration had the nerve to ask for more funding from Congress, as if funding were the problem and not their intentional abuse. Spineless Nancy Pelosi and the Dems rolled over and gave him more of our taxpayer money...which of course is only going to line the pockets of the corporate criminals who have Trump and other Republicans in their back pockets.
This is America. A disgrace among nations. How far and how fast we have fallen from dizzying heights.
11
We were lied into the Iraq War and it was clearly a lie before the war began. Yet Hillary voted for it, and so did Biden. They collaborated in all that unnecessary suffering and expense for the sake of political expediency. They then both voted for the Patriot Act, giving the liars even more unconstitutional authority. Meanwhile Pelosi refused calls to impeach Bush. Feeling any deja vu?
7
don't take the bait. nothing to be gained by fighting Iran
8
Incompetent Trump will bungle us into another middle eastern war. Impeach now! Before it is too late.
5
Fake conflict of Donald’s. Or would he go over Vlad?
1
Sadly, the Iranian government is more trustworthy than our own at this point
At least the Ayatollah doesn't tell 4 verifiable lies every single day
7
Iran isn’t Iraq or Afghanistan to be pushed around easily. There was no reason for Trump to get out of nuclear deal with Iran. It wasn’t perfect, but an excellent beginning, a win win for everyone. The reason he did it was because it was an accomplishment on part of President Obama. Even if he wanted to get out, he had no right to impose sanctions on Iran. Of course, the rest of the signatories, followed on Trump’s footsteps. A big mistake. Iran survived for almost 40 years when US froze all of their assets and they will survive now. Trump followers, are you listening , the money that was returned to Iran, was ( THEIR OWN MONEY) that sat in our banks for 40 years. Trump wants you to believe that Obama gave that money to Iranians, another big lie.
9
Trump's sanctions are back firing. They are turning the Iranian people not just their leadership into an implacable foe. Any reasonably informed adult or adolescent could see this coming and so could your President. So now what - best to ask Bibi.
6
Jeremy Hunt, the foreign secretary, said in a statement issued before the meeting that he was “extremely concerned” and called the seizure “unacceptable.”
_______________
He thinks that the right to seize ships in international waters belongs solely to the Brits.
7
So is it time to stop trying to side with Iran simply because it goes with anti- trump.
Oh, please note, Canada refused to sign that international agreement, we stuck by our allies in that region of the world, not followed what the us Democratic Party wanted. We was actually against the agreement.. hard to believe when one reads the media.
3
Nobody would bat an eye if the Global Policeman US (or Deputy Fife UK) "arrested" another country's ship under some pretext or another. It's only unconscionable when one of the little countries does it. How dare they do what the US takes for granted.
7
Why is the seizing of an Oil Tanker treated so mildly.
I do not want War with Iran, but this is an open act of
War.
Where is the UN in all of this ?
4
@John Brown Which country seized whose oil tanker first?
Now, ask that question again.
5
@John
the brits did it first. try to keep up with the news.
7
They need to have real verifiable nuclear agreement with Iran. They are full throttle on nuclear material production. Let’s keep in mind that they along with Russia supplied North Korea with materials and in the case of Russia missile design. Of course the Russians say it was Russians but not the government. Yeah right. North Korea plays games but Iran illustrates the United States not keeping an agreement.
1
When Trump has almost disowned the European allies and unilaterally pulled out of the Iran nuclear deal despite the opposition of the other signatories where's the need for Britain or the other European States to unnecessarily fight the US proxy war with Iran and suffer the consequences?
4
I'm no fan of the most extreme elements within the Iranian government. They represent a threat to stability of the world. But I'm unable to find a way of viewing this situation as something other than the Iranians being goaded by the U.S. into actions they would probably prefer not to be taking. Trump, has claimed that they were not abiding by their commitments in the nuclear deal but according to everyone else watching the Iranians were, in fact, holding up their end of the bargain. How would Trump even know whether they were being true to their word? He famously avoids security briefings and even if that were not the case those briefings would be conducted by the intelligence community that Trump has repeated cast aspersions on (in spite of the fact that the intelligence community works first and foremost for him.) in favor of his belief in and loyalty to Putin. But it really doesn't matter what he claims because I can't have any faith that he wouldn't just make it all up. His word is truly worthless. There is no intelligent grand plan that he's executing ... he just wants to dismantle everything President Obama built. He is literally willing to harm the U.S. and risk causing a war over his petty ego. I don't know why I keep holding out hope that the office of the presidency will have some sort of beneficial effect on Trump and make him behave honorably but in fact the power of that office is just allowing him to indulge his petulant whims. I'm ashamed of our president.
4
I love it. When Trump signals that we have our old ally's back, everyone here all of a sudden does not like alliances! Trump just can't beat the hate.
4
Wait a minute. When the British seized an Iranian tanker were they under the delusion that that action would be a cost free activity?
Bullies are always outraged when their victims have the audacity to punch back. It's not supposed to work that way.
9
We knew the possibility for such Iranian action
Ws have had the military/air force means to assure it won't happen - but we did nothing!
Sorry, we are responsible; and as they say "possession in 95 percent of the law".
British actions on behalf of BP are the source of our problems. Iran had a democratically elected government who wanted BP to pay more for Iranian oil but instead the Brits and the CIA overthrew that government and put the Shah back on the throne. And are problems have gotten worse.
6
When you strangle a country with crippling sanctions, what else is the country supposed to do ? If the US feels the Iranian people will overthrow the current regime, that’s unlikely. This is very different from N. Korea run by a tin pot dictator that Only cares about himself and not his people. I hope we have a plan for an accelerated Iranian aggression. I doubt if T has the courage to start a war, other than insulting people. The Iranians know they can cause significant political and financial damage to the West by going to war they cannot win, remember these guys love suicide missions and blowing themselves up .
1
America , you started this and whatever happens , do not forget that you pulled out of an international agreement that Iran was in complete compliance with and following that , upped the ante by applying economic sanctions on the Iranian economy damaging the countries security and hurting its people then followed up by attempting to have ALL Iranian oil exports halted and punishing any of its trading partners if they did not cease their oil imports from Iran.
America launched a series of devastating economic attacks and other provocations on a country which broke no law and was in complete compliance with a nuclear agreement signed by the major powers including America.
America is trying very hard to either destroy a sovereign country and hurt its people or to start a war with it which would kill many people and do either of these hostile attacks without due process , fair cause or valid reason .
America, cease and desist yet another of the unjustified or lawful provocative attacks on a nation in the middle east that you seem to savour and relish and every time , has only led to greater harm and thousands upon thousands of innocent civilian deaths all without achieving anything positive or led to a safer more secure region or world and in fact has only made matters worse in so very many tragic ways.
America is more and more becoming a force for harm and inequity , despair and destruction.
8
It's so disheartening to be ashamed of ones own country and the things that it does to others mostly for the sake of money. Trump started this conflict and now as the bully he is, he's trying to punish Iran. Why ?
We could be getting along with them. But no, Trump needs an enemy to rail against.
As far as the sanctions, China and India should just ignore them.
7
@USMC 1954:
A succinct, cogent, and utterly spot-on comment.
4
Britain has a dirty colonial history including wars in Iran and Afghanistan. It looks they never learned anything since then. Our complicity to kill democracy in Iran during the time of Musaddak and our present policy in Iran and Afghanistan are just a continuation of this old deprecated British colonial policy.
3
The only realistic solution is to trade seized tankers. And the UK should think twice about doing trump’s dirty work for him in the future. Let’s be honest, the spat was started by the brits. Straits of Gibraltar are also international waters free for commerce.
5
Which other year or studio is this occurring in?
How about a green revolution? Then, the straits of the Middle East will not matter so much.
1
Looks like Trump is right. Now that Iran is targeting England, we know that their intent is foul. Obama’s Deal with Tehran was a fool’s errand.
3
@Once From Rome
I Carry No Brief for Iran. However, they are RESPONDING to a British seizure of one of their ships. They are not “...targeting...” England. Frankly, The Royal Navy is currently so weak that the UK needs to trim its sails internationally.
5
If ever, there was an ongoing time of the arrogance, ignorance, greed, and danger of the human animal on both sides of the Atlantic, the last almost 20 years has proved that true. The Yale graduate, and the Columbia graduate, Bush, and Obama, couldn't see the forest for the trees, and caused more death in the millions, more refugees in the millions, most of who were deposited on the doorstep of western Europe, Turkey, Jordan, etc. and by now, about 4 trillion spent of wasted money with absolutely nothing to show for it. Think Afghanistan, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen etc. The death, and destruction in the middle east is a gift that keeps on giving, but only to religious fanatics of all kinds, and money on the bottom line of the financial statements of too many corporations around the world.
6
Why doesn't the article acknowledge in the first paragraph that the seizure of the British ship appears to be in direct response to the illegal seizure by the British (oh yes by Gibraltar, that's a joke) of an Iranian ship to enforce EU sanctions against Syria which do not apply to Iran.
So too why does not every article about the so-called bad actor Iran acknowledge that our bad relationship with Iran started because we, the US in conjunction with the British, overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953 and then supported a dictator (the Shah) for years. We should apologize for these actions as a way to jump start peaceable discussions with Iran.
7
Is Britain really this weak? The US clearly wants to start a fight with Iran. The British agree that the nuclear deal was working until the US knifed it, but now, at the slightest of nudges from the US, seizes an Iranian oil tanker knowing full well it will provoke Iran.
We can already see there's no hope that the press has taken any lessons from the Iraq war fiasco. The Guardian's headline reads "Iran stokes Gulf tensions by seizing two British-linked oil tankers" when they were responding to the provocation of having one of their own seized by the British. The headline should read "Britain stokes Gulf tensions by seizing Iranian oil tanker - Iran retaliates".
This NYT article also states that it's the Iranian actions that are causing trouble. They are clearly being goaded into action by the US, with Britain falling into line like a well trained lap dog.
It's one thing to see that we are incapable of learning from history. But in this case, the lesson is in recent, living memory!
2
Not bringing Iran onside would be a lost counter-MaoWannabe opportunity.
As the Iranian foreign minister pointed out, this is the Iranian coast. The U.S. is six thousand miles from home.
" Who is being provocative ?"
3
Indeed Your Highness, that distance is much farther than our longest Par 5s.
1
@Nigel Worthington
Nigel, thank you for reminding me that the British open is on the tele.
I was the captain of USNS Navasota (T-AO 106) deployed providing underway logistics for the USS Enterprise (CVN 65) Battle Group (RADM Guy Zeller, CAPT Rocky Spane commanding Enterprise, and CAPT James Perkins commanding surface combatants) in April 1988. Lordy was it hot in the Gulf of Oman and we were tasked with the manual labor of delivering food in addition to our normal function of refueling everyone.
I found out contemporaneously about Operation Praying Mantis, in which the surface combatants and air group of a single US Battle Group ended Iranian air and surface assets as effective combat forces in one day. That is the rock 'em sock 'em that only a US CVBG (carrier battle group) can deliver on demand, anywhere in the world.
While positioning itself as an ancient regime, in fact Iran gas a very, very short memory. I pray that my brothers and sisters who are still out there don't have to refresh Iranian memories because I know that if they are called upon, they will do their duty without regard to the cost to themselves.
2
Trump created this entire mess by foolishly pulling out of an agreement to prevent Iran from building a bomb simply because Obama's officials negotiated the deal and Obama wisely signed it. International inspectors confirmed that Iran followed the rules but that didn't stop Trump the bully. He has put Iran in an impossible position by demanding that no country purchase Iranian oil, as if the United States has the right to tell every country in the world what it was allowed to buy. Now the US is on the brink of a senseless war with Iran thanks to Trump's blundering stupidity.
As for the UK, the Iranian seizure of a British ship is tit for tat from their seizure of an Iranian ship carrying oil, following Trump demands. This whole mess exists simply because of Trump's insane jealousy over Obama's successes.
One more point. I note that recent NYT stories have dated the beginning of animosity between the USA and Iran as 1979 when Iranians took all the staff working at the US embassy in Tehran as hostages, which is totally misleading. The hostage takings were clearly wrong, but the animosity began in 1953 when the CIA fostered a coup to dispose of the democratically elected secular leader of Iran, Mohammed Mosadeq, and installed their puppet, the Shah, after Iran nationalized their oil industry because the UK, their former colonial masters, would not agree to a fair deal. That is why Obama apologized to the Iranian people.
4
And documents Iran's intentions - now and into the future.
Let's see... Mueller testifies next Wednesday? So expect full blown war over these "escalating tensions" by Tuesday.
3
Iran has also been accused of harassing oil tankers in recent weeks - including allegedly blowing up two vessels with sea mines last month.Three boats operated by Iranian Revolutionary Guards also had a tense armed standoff with a Royal Navy warship after attempting to seize a BP tanker on July 10.
https://www.topnewworld.com/2019/07/iran-seizes-british-tankertensions-over.html
2
The Iranian audacity has probably come about after Turkey opted for induction of Russian missiles, thereby weakening its NATO ties. Brexit had already weakened NATO ethos.
So in a way the Trump objective of undermining NATO is getting achieved and its consequence on international commerce is signaled by the oil tanker seize.
This incident however need not be seen as the proverbial swallow prior to onset of summer, instead could steer a course correction. International security and trade architecture are co-dependent. Global security is made viable by commerce.
1
Why is it that America is constantly dragged into every Anglo-Iranian dispute? Isn't that how we got into trouble in 1953 by staging that Royalist coup because British oil companies were thrown out of Iran? Let England settle its current problems with Iran themselves for a change. America is not in the business of being a referee because no good will come of it no matter what we say or do. This is another dispute that won't end well.
12
Please excuse our disbelief for some 60 years after the 19th Century. And our lobby firms.
From the Guardian:
Carl Bildt, the former Swedish prime minister and co-chair of the European council on foreign relations, pinpointed the ambiguities of the British action in Gibraltar: “The legality of the UK seizure of a tanker heading for Syria with oil from Iran intrigues me. One refers to EU sanctions against Syria, but Iran is not a member of the EU. And the EU as a principle doesn’t impose its sanctions on others. That’s what the US does.”
Is the US nudging Britain into dangerous waters with Iran?
To the Iranian eye, the British action had nothing to do with an EU embargo, and everything to do with an desire to support the US squeeze on Iranian oil exports, the quickest route to bringing the Iranian economy to its knees.
26
@Elisabeth
Good points and perhaps the only solution for Iran is to develop nuclear weapons and consider using them. North Korea is instructive for terrorist regimes.
This is all leading up to a skirmish which will be sold as a war effort to stop a nuclear power.
It will be timed perfectly in time for Trump's reelection
14
What’s great about Trump backing out the Iranian nuclear deal is that we now have the chance to get a great deal similar to the beauty Trump and Co achieved with North Korea!
He was right, we are getting tired of winning. Much more winning and we might find ourselves in WW-III.
24
Well, looks like the world (which apparently mostly made up of '$hithole' countries according to Trump and his cronies) is tiring of the old white colonialists.
They feel Iran has a better moral compass than the Saudi Prince Bone Saw and our president Comrade Bone Spur.
They can't just stand by when leaders in US and it's little english partner across the pond dehumanize anyone that is not white, destroy their economies and and blockade those people from emigrating for a better life.
In a way, the world putting a stop to these idiots and perhaps siding with Iran may not entirely be a bad idea.
The only thing white supremacists really need is a thorough rubbing of their face in something so I washable and one that will smell as bad as their own racism.
27
General Colin Powell reportedly made a comment about one of the gulf wars that basically stated that if you, meaning our leadership at the time, break it, you own it. And Trump is a bull in a china shop.
But, Trump being Trump, will blame someone else, preferably a Democrat immigrant of color.
This is disturbing and our sad sack flag officers are apparently going along with this tactic of Trump's.
11
Trump left the nuclear agreement with Iran to serve AIPAC, but others pay for the consequences of his actions.
The current crisis leads to an increase of the oil price, which is always good for Saudis and Trump constituents i.e. oil companies.
31
“Tensions between Britain and Iran spiked earlier this month when the British military impounded an Iranian tanker near Gibraltar on suspicion of having violated a European Union embargo on the sale of oil to Syria. Iran called the seizure “piracy,” accused Britain of acting on a pretext at the behest of Washington and threatened to capture a British ship in retaliation.”
Now about 6 hours ago, an earlier version of this article explicitly called the Brits’ seizure of an Iranian tanker exactly that a seizure:
“Britain and Iran have been embroiled in a dispute for the past few weeks over Britain’s seizure of an Iranian tanker near Gibraltar. Iran had vowed to retaliate.”
Think readers won’t notice?
Submitted July 19th 10:20 PM eastern
12
Wonder if the Iranians has done their homework.
This isn't a British ship. It's Swedish.
6
Stena Is Indeed à Swedish company... maybe the freight is British oil..?
Pay back for U.S. shooting down Iranian reconnaissance drone. An easy target. A hostage.. Britain can't enforce invasion or financial threats. Trump must stand by quivering with clenched fists and red face.
2
Nice job Donnie.
You think this is just the distraction you need with Mueller on his way?
We always knew you would try a war to avoid the SDNY...
because they will send you away for a long time.
9
British should use frigates to escorte its tankers, and international community should set up ally in persia gulf
4
@danviet,
They will.
Will all the commentators who keep referencing TRUMP, just stop it.
Read the article!
This was a British ship being hijacked. NOTHING to do with the US.
The US now counts its allies as North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt ,the Philippines.
Old alliances are gone, baby, gone.
7
The British seizure of an Iranian tanker off Gibraltar was at the request of the USA, leading to the tit-for-tat between Britain and Iran. So yes, we do have something to do with the current situation in the Straits of Hormuz. But it goes beyond that, of course. This has everything with Trump’s decision to withdraw from the nuclear accord and the administration’s efforts to destabilize Iran and replace its government.
17
Would replacing Iran's theocracy be such a bad thing?
1
@Mike Iker
Once again the US disparages its allies. As a [former] ally I deplore the way the US has just forged its own war path - again - whilst trashing its long-standing friends.
Sick to my soul of all the innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan who lost their lives through American war-mongering. Why? For what purpose?
In the meantime, the REAL criminals are getting away with yet more murder.
Saudi Arabia is a rogue state. And supported by the good old USA. Murdering small children on a daily basis in Yemen.
And journalists.
Yet what do we hear about it?
2
Trump and his "nothing but the best" ring kissers are woefully way out of their league in any matter let alone tensions with Iran.
I really hope the US can hold on till Trump loses the election.
However I'm very concerned the electoral college may benefit him once again, in fact NYT has an excellent piece on that today.
I'm worried.
4
I notice that a lot of readers have commented that they would take the word of Iran's leader over that of the President of the United States.
Khamenei was telling lies, when Trump was still in short pants.
Anyone who decide to take the side of Iran's leader, over that of our President (defective, as he is) is making a fatal mistake.
7
You war mongers are trying really hard starting yet another war. Remember Iraq? What did this get us? Or spending how many years in Afghanistan, without a peaceful solution.
Warring countries are dying countries. This is all they have left: starting wars!
11
This is a war we do not need.
7
This whole thing smells a lot like a reset of the petro-dollar, which is under siege by Tesla and Bitcoin et al. And now Facebook wants to have their own money. Perhaps Iran is a pretext for a repeat of the 1970's oil situation with the accompanying dollar devaluation via inflation. They got interest rates up to 18.XX% in the early 80's. The whole economy changed.
4
Trump's maximum pressure campaign against Iran has led to this result. Crying about Iran violating international law won't work, because the US violated International law by withdrawing from the JCPOA. The US sanctions against Iran without a grounding in International Law amounts to blackmail, and Iran is now responding in kind. Crying about Iran violating International Law won't work because International Law has gone out of the window in this conflict. No legal process can proceed if one side is allowed to make up its own rules.
There is also no way the US can win a military conflict against Iran without going all the way and physically occupying Iran with many hundreds of thousands of soldiers. Iran has a large number of short range missiles that are hard to take out from the air, as the Israel-Hezbollah conflict in 2006 has shown. In case of war, Iran will fire these missiles into the oil and gas installations of the Gulf nations from the coastal areas of the Persian Gulf. There is no practical way for the US to put a stop to that without invading the territory these missiles are fired from.
11
What is the west gonna do? If they start a war over this, it will shut down oil traffic and drive the price through the roof. They just have to take it, and defend what they can.
7
"Britain occupies a pivotal place in a bloc of European states that have tried to broker some resolution to a broader conflict between Tehran and Washington"
No it doesn't. Britain sides entirely with Washington. It hasn't changed its actual behavior since Tony Blair joined Dubya's Iraq War fiasco.
Britain is the member that keeps the others from confronting Washington with unity. That's not "pivotal." That's poodle. It sabotages European interests in favor of whatever Washington wants in the moment.
11
@Mark Thomason excellent, accurate comment.
3
Iran has to learn the lesson of other countries that curry Trump's favor.
1.) Heap praise and adulation on him.
2.) Funnel money into his and his family's ventures.
Follow that simple formula and all will be well.
5
Iran was largely in compliance with the Joint Comprehensive Agreement. An American President withdrew from said agreement largely to thumb his nose at his predecessor. This is a how another disastrous shooting war begins.
8
Good for them. I have an idea let’s have Trump fix it. After all he did end the agreement so he must have a better plan.
2
The US gave Iran a political get-out clause when the US withdrew from the nuclear deal.
Then the US started engaging - first the Iranian drone. Then the UK arrested a ship, on suspicion of taking oil to Syria.
Now with the UK ships arrested by Iran, are we looking at a brer rabbit strategy.
Is the purpose to provoke Iran? War is profitable, is it not. And politics requires an enemy.
3
This is all Trumps fault. His voters don’t want “foreign entanglements”, but he has done nothing but escalate the risk of conflict with Iran.
4
It's going to be very difficult if this wildly unpopular president, who many of us have learned we cannot trust because of his habitual dishonesty and very poor judgement - wants to take this country to war.
I hope if that happens there will be real push back from the Congress and the American people because we cannot trust Donald Trump to make choices that are best for the country,
rather than his political gain.
And also resist war because two members of Trump's cabinet - Secretary Pompeo and NSA John Bolton - have shown in the past they are eager to find a reason - perhaps any reason - to strike at Iran.
We should not go to war with Iran. If a Democrat is elected president in 2020, perhaps Iran can trust us enough to reopen negotiations for the U.S. cannot rejoin the nuclear accord our previous government worked so hard to make.
5
@fast/furious Why would any nation now trust any new President,knowing that any agreement lasts only 8 years of that administration.
2
The level of ignorance in this Administration is astounding
14
@Never Ever Again
Too much time in the Upper Peninsula during the winter?
1
Hmm. The Iranians know how to play chess, it seems.
3
It's really sad when you can't believe anything your president says.
7
Clever move . I really can't blame 'em. Also, I don't believe a word coming out of the mouth of POTUS the Great American Disgrace.
10
Congratulations Trump. This is a problem that you created.
6
Days after their tanker was seized, mullahs have publicly announced they would retaliate.
Well, I guess they did what they promised. This is as transparent as it can be.
6
@F
They imprison citizens with the same effectiveness. Why Iranian clerics are so popular with the citizens.
2
Be careful suggesting that you believe the Iranians just to spite Trump and demo your opinion of him.
It’s our incredibly brave Navy leaders and sailors who are living this and doing what needs to be done. Do you really believe those men/women, who are the best of us, are lying about these circumstances? Of course not.
7
@Terry
None of these men and women have given any testimony about what happened. By law, they are muzzled from issuing public statements, which must come through the filter of the Trump administration. So your point is irrelevant.
5
@Terry
Yes, I believe our military leaders are lying. They lied to provoke the Iraq war and they are lying now.
7
@Terry
Yes some of them are lying.
They lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
They lied about Abu Gharib.
They lied about Haditha.
They lied about Libya.
And they are lying about Iran.
This is not a complicated concept. And no the military is not some sort of sacred priesthood immune to criticism or careerism. That's a disgusting and dare I say UnAmerican viewpoint. "Be careful" indeed. Stuff and nonsense!!!
2
Please IRAN take hostages. You remember what happened the the last president who had an election during an IRANIAN hostage crisis. For the sake of our democracy! I'm no fan of hostage taking, but I'm even a less fan of a president who doesn't pretend to represent all the people, including me.
2
@Barry
I hope you’re taken hostage someday so a shallow political point can be made. I really do.
4
The UK should never have seized the Iranian tanker in the first place. This was to be expected. Now Britain is being played by the axis of evil (us, Israel, Saudi) as bait to lure Iran into Trump s Gulf war.
15
— Iran seized at least one British oil tanker in a vital Persian Gulf waterway on Friday,
That’s a good one. Considering their size maybe a recount is in order.
1
"I am worried that USS Boxer has shot down their own UAS by mistake!" A nice Tweet contest! Looking forward to Trump's fighting back.
2
So THIS is how it starts?
We're going to let it be THIS simple for them?
I wonder what they will call the Iran pretext PSYOP in the future when they start writing books about how we were duped, again, into war.
4
Eventually a new deal will be struck, largely the same as the old deal, but with inconspicuous extra concessions to Iran, and Mr Trump will boast that is is a much bigger, better deal, that averted war, destroyed Iran's nuclear ambitions, and broke ground with Iran like none of his predecessors could ever have imagined. Everyone will go home happy.
3
@A. F. G. Maclagan:
No, it won't; a decent and reliable deal had already been struck and Trump negated it without understanding an inkling of what it represented. It's that simple. We're wading into uncharted waters with an ignorant simpleton at the helm who cares very little about anything but himself.
3
I hate to admit this, but I’m rooting for the Persians. Trump caused all of this.
15
One should not forget that USA is seriously negotiating its withdrawl from Afghanistan precisely at this time in Doha, Qatar with Taliban. It is interesting to note that some of the Taliban delegates are ex-prisoners at Gitmo Bay. So, another war has to be started to replace this war in Afghanistan?
3
I pray for no war. When you wage economic war on a country like Iran, you should have expected this, Mr. Trump and Mr. Bolton. In fact, your policies encouraged this type of response and I'm sure Mr. Bolton is champing at the bits. Very sad. More people will be killed. The ones responsible for the mess will escape judgment on Earth.
7
They agreed to a deal with Obama and many other participants, and we broke it under the current policy. Our allies begged us to NOT back out, so we decided instead to impose even greater sanctions. I'm with them on this one. We've already "attacked them"- why shouldn't they respond? What would we do if we had a weak economy and a lot of angst against the western alliance?
I DON'T like the political climate in the Middle East, but this is the WORST course we ever could have taken. And- this isn't going to stop with just a "couple of countries". Now we're really playing with the "domino effect". Answer- lift the sanctions, and keep them at bay on the ground (i.e.- Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, etc.) with an international peace-keeping force. And stop playing stupid games with WMD. This is no game- we figured that out over 50 years ago.
4
Here in Texas, when anybody says they have never had a roach in their house, you can never believe anything else they say. Mr. Trump's brazen lies, like saying he tried to stop the "Send Her Back" chants when the video shows he obviously let it build for 10+ seconds, are in the same category. In fact, many suspect his minions instigated the chant. "Mr. Trump should worry that Americans will stop believing anything he says." (Wall Street Journal, 3May2018) (WSJ!) This is an unacceptable situation when faced with a possible war.
4
Trump dumped the Iran Nuclear deal because it “didn’t go far enough”, but he has not tried to negotiate a new deal. So he has a deal that does not even exist. He hates Obama so much that anything with his fingerprints on it is no good to Trump. Were we having these problems with Iran before Trump dumped the deal? I do not recall any of this. Other countries are now seeing that Trump will not honor any deal made, even those of previous presidents. Why would any foreign country now trust the US?
8
In 1988 the U.S. destroyed half of Iran's navy after a serious provocation. Seize one more tanker, I would say, and they deserve to learn what their misplaced arrogance brings them.
4
Great, a strategically weak, worn out and chronically divided country with no current clout, true allies or global presence, with a weakened economy amidst social and economic unrest and privations enforced by austerity and who now are having an unelected boy-king crowned next week (well okay, about 120,000 got a vote) and what will be a new cabinet in a government with a critically weak majority of three; a country who is currently enjoying a lull before the actual typhoon of insanity that is going to strike before Autumn.
And I haven’t even mentioned Iran yet.
14
It is such a shame that a great country like America full of pure-hearted, creative, intelligent and peace-loving people is ran by a childish person like Trump who clearly isn't fit to be President. I know Americans are such amazing people because I have so many American friends throughout the social media and I've met many wonderful American thinkers who have visited our faculty which is the World Studies of University of Tehran where we study North America. I know American history, culture, beliefs and dreams and folks, you may be surprised to know that I've realized that Americans and Iranians are very alike. Unbelievably alike. And this similarity is mainly rooted in the mentality of of both nations. I've come to get to know many people from all over the world, but I've never felt more close to a foreigner than when I've talked to an American. Americans have been always the most similar, understanding and the easiest people to reason with. I'm sorry for judging and name-calling your president, it isn't something I'd normally do but I mean no offense toward the office of POTUS. I've predicted years ago that someday America and Iran would become very close friends and allies and I still believe in that because my findings do not lie. One day I'll show the world why this prediction is the future. Until then, it is up to us, people of the world to make bridges, connect and establish mutual understanding to fight ignorance and hatred on a global scale. Everybody matters.
16
I kind of think the animosity between the US and Iran isn’t over nukes or religion. It’s simpler than that. In the end it comes down to they have a lot of oil that the US and some of it’s ‘allies’ would rather not see on the market. Money. It’s always about money.
5
@AG Yes, these oil sanctions for Iran and Venezuela (unlike Russia or Saudi Arabia) are all about avoiding a glut on the market and holding the price of crude.
3
Rather than (like the Obama Administration) and attempting to build a rational step by step process of negotiations conducted by a professional diplomatic corp (based on mutual respect and a realization that a War between the West and the Iranians could have many, many unforeseen consequences for the entire Middle East) Trump Inc seems to be following in the misguided and disastrous footsteps of his Republican predecessor in the White House-Geo W. Bush. All that is missing at this point, is for Donald J's chicken-hawk advisers to begin to whisper in his ears the words, "Shock and Awe".
3
It seems to me that both the United States and Great Britain are trying to instigate a war. I don’t believe the majority of the citizens in either country is happy about that idea. We can’t afford anymore calamities. It seems to me that war with Iran would make the Iraqi fiasco seem like a cakewalk. We’ve already figured out that we cannot take and hold territory, any larger than a small island, without endless turmoil. It seems like the only people that will benefit from a war will be the defense industry, as par usual. The only reason Trump pulled the United States out of the agreement was because of his racist hatred of Obama. We know, by looking at what he’s done with North Korea, that accepting bad deals isn’t off the table. Truthfully, Iran should just reopen negotiations with Trump and start a completely new deal, and I’m sure they’ll like the new one better.
1
This is what you get with Republicans since George Herbert Walker Bush and wonderful people like Bob Dole retired from public service. Wedge politics, racism (which is not overt) and moving our volunteer military and assets around in place for direct confrontation. Investors here and around the world will find a way to make big bucks from the high-low-high in the markets or government contract programs that come in to help clean up the mess.
If I were speaking to the current Administration and I am now I would state, THIS needs to STOP. NOW.
If I were speaking to Iran and I am now I would encourage Iranian leadership to patiently wait this President, John Bolton,l Mike Pompeo and the administration out. They may hold these jobs now but they are just men and there are a lot of men in this country besides just them. After all, that's what we're doing with Putin, waiting him out really. I think it very unlikely this administration will hang on to power in 2020. We've had enough of the insults, inciting, instigating, and fabricated conflicts and escalations.
1
When Harold Wilson announced that UK would no longer be the naval guarantor of the Gulf, supposedly a number of the oil countries-Arab ones- offered to pay the entire cost to keep the Royal Navy in the Gulf. Wilson declined.
2
@Lefthalfbach. That story seems unlikely as everyone was aware the US Navy was the new guarantor of free passage. Instead, the story appears premised on an assumption that the Arab states won’t defend themselves but prefer to buy the protection of their economic interests by placing Western lives at risk. The West acts according to its calculation of national interests and doesn’t hire itself out as mercenaries. To believe otherwise is to be a fantasist.
It really does not matter if the Straits are open or closed if there is no oil to ship.
Iran is quite capable in any number of ways of destroying the pipelines and loading docks that get oil from wells to ships. Those things are very large and very flammable.
It also does not matter if insurance rates get high enough or casualties high enough that tanker companies won't risk their ships.
How many tankers do that have to hit before the Straits are "closed?" Not 100% of them. A few dozen in steadily mounting losses would probably be enough.
None of this matters if the Gulf royals are swept out of power, and run off to Europe to be with their money. Then the oil would be owned by whoever is left. In Saudi Arabia, the religious groups are Wahhabi, the origin of al Qaeda and 9/11. The people living on the oil fields are Shiite, close to Iran, so we could repeat our experience of handing Iraq to Iran by also handing them the Arabian oil fields. There are many ways that could turn out, none good for us.
How would they get swept away? They stay in power now by their deal with the Wahhabi clerical nuts, and by paying off much of the population with a share of the oil money. No oil money, no payoff, and off they go.
The Gulf is a tinder box. Ever see on tankers the huge signs under the bridge saying "No Smoking?" Well, that's the Gulf.
5
The Iranian seizure of a British oil tanker has nothing to do with the nuclear deal (which Britain still supports) or with Trump’s withdrawal of the US from it.
Britain seized an Iranian tanker that entered its territorial waters off Gibraltar as part of EU sanctions against the Syrian regime. Britain had asked for an Iranian guarantee that the tanker’s ultimate destination was someplace other than Syria in which case the tanker would be released. This seizure was apparently Iran’s desperate response to restore its crumbling “honor” among its hard pressed citizenry.
Nothing particularly new here as Iran has displayed a proclivity for kidnapping dual nationals for negotiating purposes. So taking a tanker in international waters for leverage should not have been a surprise. All of which makes you wonder where the Royal Navy was in all this?
6
Your correspondents opine that Britain tries to preserve the 2015 deal " in defiance of the Trump administration ". It might be said that Trump defied the British resolve to preserve 2015 deal by his actions. US withdrawal was not discussed with the other signatories but all may bear the consequences. Being led by DT is not yet UK policy.Trump alone shoulders the blame for the escalation.
Iran is no ones favourite. This action was expected following the Gibraltar incident. Release our ship and we'll release yours.
The danger is that increasingly restless hawks in Washington might use any excuse to encourage Trump to attack Iran.
7
I hope this time the Brits are not going to be able to convince other European countries to participate in another one of their senseless wars, particularly since they‘ve decided that do not want to be part of Europe any longer.
12
Thanks for letting us know.
When was the last time we won a war? I don't remember. With all that money, we're not winning the wars.
The United States has fought five major wars — Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan — and only the Gulf War in 1991 can really be classified as a clear success.
11
@Orphan7:
That you omit WWII is either a simple oversight or a reflection of a lack of familiarity with history.
2
Ask me if I care. The oil industry is bad to the world.
11
@SHAKINSPEAR -- A war there might get us right to a Green New Deal. There would be a depression first, but boy would we transition.
2
@SHAKINSPEAR:
That may well be true . . . except for 90% of the available alternatives.
Are the hip Yanks now into some Slow Power movement? Heavens if so. Really.
Maybe Britain shouldn't have boarded and seized an Iranian tanker in the first place. Iran has a fairly formidable capability to shut shipping down through the Strait of Hormuz or at least make it more expensive by jacking up the insurance premiums of the shipping companies. When you impose crushing economic sanctions unilaterally as the U.S.has done and then demand to an obsequious E.U. that it cows to the American war mongers then this is what you can expect.
26
@FXQ
Do you think Iran can effectively shut down the straits? that would be the essential question for Trump. If they can, he should not have pulled out of the deal to begin with.
If he can keep the straits open, he can claim to be the "essential" element in world politics.
Personally, I would not bother were I in his place. I would be forging ahead with renewable energy and creating a G8 type alliance to rule the world. That is the future, not coal mines and the Koch brothers. The rational American would understand that if the issue were explained rationally.
However, Trump may not be convinced that his base is rational.
3
To the fools who deluded themselves into appeasing Iranian dictators who were chanting death to America.
A possibility.... what if the Iranian madmen already have a nuclear bomb and are just trying to provoke a war as cover for attacking Jews in Israel, the heretics in Saudi Arabia or the great Satan America?
4
>>> ". . . Iranian dictators who were chanting death to America."
Actually, it was Iranian *students* who started that chant. Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why they felt that way?
2
@Bummero:
Such is the nature of wild speculation -- rarely, rarely does it reflect reality.
Until fairly recently all relevant governments and their verification inspectors have concurred that the Iranians had indeed been complying with the treaties in place regarding their nuclear fuel stockpile.
Then the ersatz Buffoon-In-Chief and his lackeys got their fingers into the mix and, well, the predictable evaporation of trust ensued -- and voila! Yet another debacle courtesy of our gameshow host "leader."
Sad.
Bigly sad.
2
What if .... Sean speculates the same tonight? Blames Obama?
You seem not to know that the agreement about uranium and plutonium and centrifuges was being verified?
Ahhh... You want to tell Iran and most of the Mid East that THIS time, if you agree to all of the great ideas we want that we have ignored in the past when we have ravaged and destroyed a lot of your countries for 120 and more years, well if you behave we will be nice nice to you?
Dangerous Donnie has two choices.
Lift the sanctions, or
Enter into a catastrophic war with Iran, dragging Israel, Russia, the Gulf States, Turkey and Qatar into the nightmare.
He’ll try to drag the Europeans into it too but I don’t think they’re that stupid.
Iran will continue it’s mischief until Donnie’s hand is forced.
If war does break out, Trump will own the consequences, and he knows it.
Your move Mr President, Sir.
8
@New World:
I can only take issue with your next-to-last line, ". . . and he knows it."
You give him far, far too much credit for being cognizant of any real-life scenarios / experiences beyond his silver-spoon, uber narcissistic cocoon of manufactured "reality."
To have any such human being with Real World access to the nuclear launch codes ought to be keeping everyone else on Earth acutely worried.
5
President Trump is not responsible for Korea Vietnam Iraq Afghanistan none of them. Fling your dung on the walls of his predecessors. Britain and Standard Oil are deeply responsible for the origins of the imperial mess of the Middle East. Details judgement. 24 Hrs for release. No release punitive action
1
Britain with the help of U.S. intelligence ousted Iranian duly elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in 1953. He was a secular progressive.
My gut feeling is : no 1953 coup d'état, no 1967 Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, no CIA backed SAVAK, no 1979 ayatollahs and none of this miserable endless persecution of the Persian people.
It has been going on 66 years now to primarily avoid British Petroleum assets to be nationalised in the 50s and tell the muslim shiite guys : ''Look, we're running your show''.
Combined with the Vietnam war, the Irak fiasco, the Libya fiasco, the Syrian chaos, it is the most despicable Anglo-Saxon 'White Christian Power Trip'.
Aren't you fed up or real men go to Tehran? Go get it!
11
@Le Michel:
I tend to agree with your "gut feeling" regarding 1953. 'Tis an exquisite example (yet another) that when governments fall -- especially due to the machinations of external (foreign) agencies --- all bets are off as to the historical outcome.
Thus it is a bit specious to assume anything about the course of history.
So far as the Vietnam War goes, your pejorative against "the most despicable Anglo-Saxon 'White Christian Power Trip [sic]" is utterly out of place and oblivious to reality: China had a major influence with that outcome, without respect to racial/religious pejoratives.
BTW, please elaborate just which "real men" should go to Tehran; I'm sure it will further illuminate your thinking, and may well be a service to the reader community here (or not).
Uh-oh, how will Tucker Carlson get us out of this one?? Tune in tonight to find out!
6
I'm too old to join the Iranian armed forces so I'm sitting this one out.
7
@phil morse:
Well . . . you could go as a neutral observer, or perhaps a wartime journalist (think W. Eugene Smith).
Think of the stories you'd bring back for the grandkids!
Here America goes again. One sided story to make Iran look evil. The whole World knows (except American Government and its media catches amnesia) that this was coming after British authorities seized Iranian tanker from neutral waters near Gibraltar.
I care less with Iran but sense of fairness has to prevail.
Trump hates Obama, Trump shred Iran agreement and corners Iran, Iran US and the whole region erupts into war. Thank You
13
@Alpha:
Sadly, I can only "speak" for about fifty percent of my country's citizenry . . .
You pegged in your next-to-last sentence the source of America's current lapse into dysfunction and insanity. Having such an utterly reckless and ignorant person as President of the U.S. is not only surreal and tragic, but also an extremely poor reflection of much of my countrymen's capacity for mature, clear, rational thinking.
When our current "President" was running for office (2016), his only credentials were that of a low-brow game show host and racist, millionaire misogynist. That he was elected came as a surreal shock to not only thinking US citizens, but also the rest of the world (with the notable exception of one V. Putin).
During his election campaign Trump and his followers loved to wear those red baseball caps with the MAGA (Make America Great Again) slogan across the front. This was the first acute, genuine warning to those who could see through Trump's self-delusion: America was a Great country before this idiot came along.
Thus the hat (and bumper stickers) are unwittingly ironic to the Trump minions; in less than two years the Buffoon-in-Chief's actions, and those of his minions, have so damaged our national reputation abroad, and civil discourse (and governance) stateside, that our country has indeed lost both its shining lustre on the world stage as well as within our own borders.
It's almost unfathomable; this election MAGA will be a plea for change!
2
Trump is like the little boy who cried wolf.
So many lies.
You will recall in the end he was eaten by the wolf...
God help us.
3
In reading the news, I tend to believe Iran these days. That's so sad....
11
Sadly, is there even a single world leader today that has any credibilitty, that you can trust ? Reminds me of my favorite movie, It’s a Mad Mad Mad world, everyone decides to go for the loot on their own, in the end no one gets it.
3
@Hobo:
Your sentiments are spot-on; this administration is nothing else if not a clowncar an inept cronies and sycophants. It reflects extraordinary poorly as to the collective intelligence of the frightening large percentage of our citizenry who actually believes in these people and their policies.
I (humorously) differ with your film analogy:
I'd pick either "Dr Strangelove, or How I Stopped Worrying and Love the Bomb" -- "black humor" hilariously skewering the man's ineptitude in governance (and the dire consequences of having the clueless in control when nuclear war is in play) . . .
Or, much more devastatingly, "Fail Safe", a deadly sober meditation on just how insane -- and plausible -- an unexpected scenario can lead to mass destruction (again via The Bomb).
Every day that ends with our world and societies still intact is a miracle, given our current ersatz "leadership."
Sad.
Bigly sad.
1
Why aren't ships of the British Royal Navy with, at the least, British flagged oil tankers to ward off these intrusions in international waters??? Destroyers or at least frigates need to be where UK flagged vessels are in this bad situation. Where is Margaret Thatcher when she is needed!!
2
@mshighcountry The RN has one destroyer and sone patrol boats in the Gulf.
1
It was a British-flagged tanker.
As for the Royal Navy, well the mighty fleet is currently in dock at the moment after receiving a puncture off of the rocks at Margate. The puncture repair kit (cost to Treasury: £71M) is currently being applied and soon HMS Dinghy will be back to rescue our tanker.
Okay, a joke. The defence budget has seen “better days” since 2010, the RN fleet are notable for being mostly in port for overhauls/refit and also critically undermanned. Our latest class of ship has an epic design flaw, new ships are only at the planning stage and basically can’t have all our ships off to Hormuz because there’s not many to spare.
Odd that the “raise military spending” conservative types are also the ones who have hacked the defence budget to the bones. Methinks they may be lying about “supporting our troops”.
3
@mshighcountry:
Keen observation; the likely reason for a no-show by the British navy is the default deference to the USN as the world's policing force.
I, for one, would like to see a much more international effort: afterall, oil in particular is a *global* concern.
1
Why arent these ships in convoys and protected?
1
Obviously, the readers’ comments indicate no trust for Trump’s words by anyone and want no part of a war with Iran. After Vietnam and Iraq with other presidents’ lies who can blame them. Every president since Roosevelt seems to have lied to American people (except Carter and Ford?). With or without allies for war, let all other countries stop the Iranian blockage of the Hormuz narrows, for now at least. We have enough oil. Is there a qualified honest experienced person in the whole of our country to lead us? Ughh.
4
If war breaks out, the first thing to go will be the Saudi oil fields and all their infrastructure.
5
Trump violated the Iran agreement leading to this.
It’s no wonder that people have a difficult time believing a guy who has lied constantly, and over 10,000 times in the last couple of years.
Trump is a tyrant, and has no concept of American values.
5
Despite the fact that Trump wishes it were the case, not everything is about him. So why are all the Most Recommended comments about Trump?
Never forget that trolls and bots from those with their own agendas, agendas usually intended to promote division in America, are common and easily pump up recommends.
As this is about the seizure of a British ship, I would suggest checking the B.B.C. for current info with applicable perspective.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49053383
6
Like little children who don't have social skills. And we have a president who is role modeling how to be a sociopath and who caused this rift. Of course if you look back it was the first Bush who attacked Iraq when Kuwait was stealing oil from Iraq, then of course we have the younger Bush and Cheney who really caused an imbalance in the Middle East by lying about weapons of mass destruction and caused many deaths of American Service people. The war still goes on and Republicans and their friends are probably still making money from the longest war in our history.
7
10,000 lies were made by Trump in his first two years of the Presidency according to WAPO.
And he has lied about his statements he made over his last debacle, with his racist bigotry towards the four of our MCs this past week.
Who can believe anything that bone spur Trump says? That also goes for Bolton who talks a big game, and also evaded Vietnam.
They had better get going on negotiations immediately and resolve this matter once and for all.
Remember this is not Iraq and Hussein, and the fairy tale about WMDs. The majority of us will not support another fantasy again.
Further, the majority of us in the US, will not support
Trump's reelection with all of his swamp's daily corruption, if he doesn't resolve this matter without war!
Not to mention Trump's $1.7 trillion debacle of debt he has single handedly caused by his tax cut, that gives 83%'s of the financial benefits going to himself and to his cronies.
And his loss of 4 million jobs here in the US, since he became President.
Trump pulled us out of the agreement, and initiated our problem with Iran. Now, he owns it and needs to fix it.
6
I just listened to the Iranian foreign minister on The PBS News Hour.
He appeared intelligent and responsible .
If onlyTrump was either of those two.
13
We all work for who we work for. But logical complete sentences, no superlatives, no repetitive phrases.
I could cry. Like poetry compared to our guy.
Even if I wanted to agree with DJT, I don’t think I could do it. I feel like my old high school teachers would flunk me.
5
Bolton wanted war. Now he may have one. And it ain't going to be easy.
Iranians are battle-hardened oddly from our instigating Saddam to wage war with them for 8 years. And the Straits of Hormuz is ready-made for asymmetric warfare. Send a swarm of fast-moving small boats out 20 miles, blow something up and back again 20 miles.
Air war? They'll retaliate against Saudi installations, choke off ME oil supplies and bring on a global depression. Trump can kiss his reelection hopes goodbye in that case.
Land assault against Iran? Even hardened Pentagon generals will giggle at that attempt at humor.
12
what a fiasco
tit for tat
and nobody has a clue as to where this is going to end up
Trump's further policy and strategy will e determined by only one issue and that is in what manner it will benefit Trump in relation to 2020.
Russia is playing a role in that a US active involvement in the Gulf/Middle East would expose them to be vulnerable in relation to possible Russian actions in Ukraine and the Baltic nations ..
The EU is in a present state of transitional flux and therefore cannot play a major influential role in reestablishing sensible existence in the region..
Dangerous and unpredictable times to be the present norm .
4
After the trump Administration got out of the Nuclear deal to give themselves room to maneuver, I wondered when the Brexiteers would be joining the Coalition of the Willing 2.0.
Not surprised to see England pick up the ball, and initiate some action, that the Trump Admin cannot currently politically deal with.
4
Trump needs to lift the sanctions on Iran and mind his own business. Iran has a right to have whatever weapons they want just as many other countries have that right as well.
8
@JMM. Yeah! The world needs more nukes. Can be anti-Trump without being totally insane.
3
International waters?
Large ships have to take channels only 2 miles wide passing through the Strait (the Iranians say the Impero was starting in the wrong channel).
They HAVE to enter Iranian coastal water (including that within 12 nm of several islands recognized as Iranian for at least a millenium, though the UAE has lodged ridiculous claims to some of the islands for this reason) to avoid the reefs off the rocky coast of Oman to the South.
I'm NOT saying the IRG are the good guys, but neither are Bolton & Pompeo.
As with the JCPOA, the Iranians, who invented chess and have been the target of Big Brother America since WW2, are playing a good strategic game, relying on ambiguities and technicalities (as with the straying drone and the straying ships today).
Of course Bolton and Pompeo care as much about international law in the Persian Gulf as their foreunners cared in the Gulf of Tonkin.
But Trump knows war with Iran before, say, October next year, will destroy the fragile global economy and any chance of re-election.
And the Iranians know this too...
So expect yet more Good Cop Trump v Bad Cops Bolton, Pompeo, Lightizer and the others - and expect the now standard WH 'negotiating' or bullying tactic to continue to lose the force it had when first used against Kim.
But be well prepared for an October Surprise next year.
14
@Martin:
Chess is believed to be derived from the Indian game chaturanga sometime before the 7th century.
4
@James
I thought as with the Gulf islands, that was disputed by the Iranians, who certainly developed the game as we know it.
2
For those that blame Trump for Iran's actions, you should remember that the Iranian tanker was seized based on it violating European Union sanctions. Nothing to do with the US. The EU has its own sanctions against Iran.
7
@James
The EU sanctions are on Syria. The UK wants Iran to promise not to send the oil to Syria.
5
Nope. All this is the result of pulling out of the agreement.
The President passes himself off as take-no-prisoners-won't-back-down leader. The economic sanctions the President unilaterally installed have backed Iran into a corner as planned. Now the world gets to deal with the fallout (please not literally). Who is going to blink first? What are the red lines? Could a third party cause an incident that the U.S. or Iran could interpret as an action by the other? How many could die before we reach a resolution (if that's possible) that in the end may not much better than the accord we pulled out of? This was a campaign promise and the President is a man of his word except when he isn't.
3
In response to the American attack dog the Iranians have chosen to retaliate against America's lapdog.
6
@Peter J.:
Such deep, nuanced insight
NOT.
Has Lindsay Graham chimed in yet to call the Iranians (or the Swedes for their treatment of ASAP) "communists?"
4
The Iranian diplomats and politicians come accross as so civilized and reasonable compared to the Americans (sorry, I mean the present administration), that I forgot there are hothead factions there too.
Still, remember that this is in retaliation for the British capturing an Iranian ship three weeks ago.
Let us be thankful that Boris and Nigel are not yet in power in Britain: It may still be possible to avoid war. (Although the changes are probably slim.)
Still, even the conservative Dutch Prime Minister (usually inclined to adopt a lap dog position vis-a-vis the US) refused to send ships to the Strait of Hormuz: They were afraid to be 'messed into a war with Iran.' Keep winning over the entire world for the greatness of America Donald!! Keep it up!
7
So, I'm on the International Waters side.
1
Trump started this. The Iranians are more honest than him or any Republican.
9
Aren't citizens of the USA, and the world, tired of all the "winning" diplomacy, initiated by Trump, Bolton, Pompeo, and all the rest of the belligerent chicken-hawks?
"The seizure came a day after the United States said it had downed an Iranian drone in the area ... and after weeks of dispute between Britain and Iran over Britain’s seizure of an Iranian tanker near Gibraltar. Iran had vowed to retaliate.,"
10
@NYer:
The sane and mature members of our society are not only well beyond being sickened by the Twitter-in-chief and his utterly incompetent minions, but also deeply disturbed by the large portion of our citizenry that has drunk deeply of the Kool-aid.
Sad.
Bigly sad.
Here is another take. The word 'navy' is from the Farsi word 'naav', meaning ship. Iranians are not unfamiliar with navigation. Meanwhile two US warships ran into two large, slow tankers in the middle of the Pacific -- TWICE in 5 months. For anyone who has been in a modest 20ft boat and seen its cluster of radars sweeping front, back, shore, depth, etc. the scenario is impossible to construct -- pure impossible -- there must have been no one on the bridge AND the combat information center of those ships. All this by way of saying that there is a good chance that the US is drifting into a naval Little Bighorn dressed as Custer. Its gonna get clobbered in ways from which it will never recover. The neocons Israelites were so prescient in coining the New American Century.
9
@Historian "Naav" is Sanskrit ! The Indian Navy is called "Nav Sena" (ie Boat Army) in Hindi.But then Old Iranian is an Indo-European language and is pretty close to Sanskriti as well . Also Zorastrian gods like Mithra etc are cognate with the Hindu Vedic Gods. If (again a BIG IF) you subscribe to the "Aryan" invasion/settlement (choose your pick based on political persuasion ) India and Iranians probably descended from a common ancestral population. Indeed the word Iran itself means "Land of the Aryans" and in Sanskrit , "Arya" means "noble" and indeed "Arya" is a common name in India (just google for it). It is the German Indologists like Max Mueller who misapplied to Northern & Western Europe based and it is actually funny to see random racists of all stripes appropriating this and whites from ethnicities who have no connection at ALL with any of this strutting around holding Swastikas and Nazi salutes and calling themselves "Aryan Nation". Swastika is something we use for stuff like weddings, house warming, buying stuff like a new car, ceremonial opening of account books by businessmen, children birth ceremonies , door signs .. far far removed from what it has been turned into by the Whites.
This proves the point that it is now a national security imperative to employ alternative sources of energy. We don't need this much oil, gas or coal - if we put our minds to it. Reducing the world's dependence on oil will hurt Russia, Iran and Saudi Arabia. In reality - Oil is walking dead.
At the same time we can become the new world energy leaders (if China doesn't beat us too it). Texas? We will be fine - we have far more sun and wind than most countries, we don't need oil.
Its time our government gets off the oil lobby dole and works with the private sector to develop the revolutionary battery. Unfortunately we have no leadership at the White House, and we have stalled out.
6
@Kennyway
"Oil is walking dead." Plastics are made from oil. Let me know when you come up with a viable replacement. Oil isn't going anywhere, anytime soon.
1
Trump uses much to distract us from what is happening in situations such as this. I am not an expertise in the ins and outs of foreign affairs, but my concern and fear since he came on the scene so aligned with Putin is that Putin is the one deciding so much of this. When trump pulled us out of the Iran deal he made sure it looked as though he was being the tough guy, but it simply opened a door for more influence and support from Russia giving them the leg up on economic gains especially in regard to oil. The sanctions against Iran continue to exacerbate this while shoring up Russia. It is the same in Turkey. I believe trump was well informed of Russia's intent to sell the S-400. Then his tough stance in cancelling the F-35s which in turn pushes Turkey toward Russia. If Turkey is ejected or decides to leave NATO we should all be paying attention. I believe the influence Russia will have will be great - and the vast majority in the US will suffer. And trump will further stomp on our democracy, balances of power and the Constitution; he will become Putin's alter-ego.
4
@EJ “The vast majority in the US will suffer”. You really need to explain how we’re going to suffer. And I certainly hope he knew about the Russia sale since it was reported in the media. And while you’re at it, explain how he is stomping on democracy.
4
As I’ve written repeatedly Putin runs foreign policy, Norquist is in charge of tax policy, and LaPierre is in charge of gun control.
Corporations overall in charge. The people are pawns.
2
@EJ - "...he will become Putin's alter-ego."
He is trying to become Putin's Mussolini.
2
None of this would have ever come about had it not been for Donald Trump violating the no-nukes agreement with Iran, starting an economic war with Iran; and then, on the "advice" of John Bolton, had UK at Gibraltar seize an Iranian vessel to obviously provoke Iran into a shooting war. Trump doesn't have a clue about how his so-called "foreign policy" has brought nothing but turmoil and chaos in the world, especially in the Middle East, and poses a dire threat to us all!
17
@Jim Michie And yet Britain is still part of the agreement so explain why a BRITISH tanker was seized. Jimmy, you need to stop blaming Trump for all your problems.
Seizure of a British ship is akin to taking a US ship. However, war is not the answer, and will play right into Iran’s hand.
Tighter patrols and looser rules of engagement at sea are a first step.
What’s Iran got to gain with all its saber rattling?
2
@Bags What does the U.S. have to gain with all of its sanctions on Iran?
1
They’ll provoke Trump
Into a self destructive move which we should all welcome.
3
I am not a DT fan, but Iran's nuclearization problem was not caused by him, and contrary to what 90% of commenters are stating -- no, the problem would not have been solved by Trump not withdrawing from the agreement, as Iran was already blatantly violating it.
Unfortunately this is a situation with no good options, but if Iran keeps provoking the West by seizing tankers, it will likely get hammered by air in retaliation.
17
@RSSFnot true that Iran was in violation. UN, independent bodies, every other state said they were in compliance. Fox News and Trump said differently.
9
@RSSF Look at the world entities that verified Iran was in compliance and then look at Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck. Do you see the difference? The latter two are entertainers and they lie.
6
@rssf
You say Iran was blatantly violating the multinational agreement before DJT pulled us out of it.
My understanding is that Iran was in compliance.
3
I have no interest in war and I’m not a fan of DT, however if Iran is smuggling oil to Syria, that’s a problem and if Iran is capturing oil tankers that’s a problem. Escalation will slowly happen as it has. Shy of war I don’t see a problem answering the attacks. Walk back from the edge Iran. There will be no invasion but you will hurt more.
7
Iran has a tiny economy compared to the U.S.. Iran's defense posture is defensive with asymetric capabilities. Their airforce is negiigible.
Are we really to beieve that Iran seeks confrontation with the U.S.?
They seek to tweak us, keep the pot boiling, keep us off balance and hope to split us off from our traditional allies into possible alignment with the Russians and the Chinese. Perhaps.
A dangerous game at any rate.
3
@SpoiledChildOfVictory
Yeah if they keep seizing the tankers of our 'allies' in Europe that should do the trick? Drive a wedge right between us and them huh? Or will it do the opposite and you just hope for this result instead?
3
I do not know what to believe. I do believe that Mr Trump would have avoided this havoc by not abrogating the treaty with Iran that Mr Obama had put in place.
But the Base does not care.
10
A mistake on part of Iran, that may not end well for it. Forcing the West's hand is not a great idea.
7
Meanwhile Boom Boom Bolton is rolling up his sleeves and lighting up a cigarette, grinning.
14
Is it not considered relevant to this story that the British Royal Marines seized an Iranian tanker off Gibraltar?
12
The story mentioned that seizure. Retaliation is not a valid reason to seize a ship in international waters.
2
It is relevant and in the story.
2
@randomxyz -- Retaliation is a valid reason. It has been done that way for hundreds of years. It was the basis of legal privateering, as one example, when governments issued "Letters of Marque and Reprisal."
3
I believe the Iranians.
12
@Mr Robert. The Left really wants to lose the 2020 election.
2
Don't bother Trump and Pompeo with this little skirmish,
they are too busy getting A$AP Rocky out of Swedish jail.
4
We all value the young men and women of this country more than wanting to go to war with a rogue nation. We need to get back into the nuclear agreement with Iran. Trade and communication create positive relationships with other countries, empowering them to become more educated and to optimize a government that serves the people. The Revolutionary Guard operates in a vacuum of political motivation by people who do not have the resources to become educated. Education opens peoples' minds. By isolating Iran we are making an error. In terms of the ships, yes, demand them back, and have armed escorts to get to Saudia Arabia. Better yet, develop solar polar and other forms of energy so Britain does not have to travel close to Iran's back yard.
4
@K.M
"We need to get back into the nuclear agreement with Iran. "
Which is presumably the reason Iran has moved a millimetre of two on its position. Not so much an olive branch as a twig - but nevertheless, a softening that the US hasn't returned.
USA losing the propaganda war here.
1
I really have to wonder how Iran can take two ships in the small area like that. The UK had two war ships there and we have a whole battle group. If Iran can outsmart our Navy with a few small boats we wasted a lot of money. I assume if these ships asked for help we would respond.
4
@Thomas Renner
"I really have to wonder how Iran can take two ships in the small area like that."
Because the Persian Gulf is a busy place and Royal Navy (and presently USN) resources can't escort every tanker.
And, I guess, once the Iranian 'small boats' have got their assets aboard the tanker - and the crew hostage, it's game over. It'd be difficult to justify the carnage an assault by British or US marines would cause. This is asymmetric warfare.
2
@nolongeradoc. The carrier we have their has 60+ aircraft while the Troup group had a helo carrier. Iran had 1 chopper. I can only guess how bad Trump's Iran war will be.
2
Lloyd's of London will now kill the Iranian oil business by not covering ships entering the Straits. Japan, China and Europe will suffer the cost of lost oil supply. While Iran will loose export dollars.
5
Possible, but that would affect other countries’ exports as well (excepting state-owned shipping)
3
@Mkm doesn’t that also kill UAE, Qatar, Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi? What a mess.
1
Anyone suggesting in their comment that there will be a ground war with Iran is basing their point on a false premise. That is not going to happen. It is simply not feasible by any measure (militarily, financially, economically or politically). The issue is whether or not a military strike or reaction will lead to a series of counter attacks that will ultimately make matters worse, or will it lead the Iranians to the table or bloodied up enough to curb their behavior. Probably make matters worse.
3
@Joe S
There will only be a military strike if Iran continues to seize tankers or otherwise try to disrupt shipping. If that does happen it will be overwhelming air and naval assault that will severely diminish Iran's capacity to do these things. If they then escalate it further by attacking Israel then it goes to a whole different level. Either way, it it comes to a strike the regime ultimately falls.
2
Sometimes we have to strike to remind who we are...the one thing that does strike fear in countries is this: they know that Americans are so willing to kill each other, and even more willing to kill others.
1
@GregP
Does Iran have the right to self-defense?
When the UK seized the Iranian tanker what should Iran have done?
Looks like sanctions are working.
11
@Scott
Those are not sanctions, they are extortion just because one rogue nation can force another one with its weapons. Just the same as the USA stole 56% of México, and it stole Puerto Rico, Hawaii, And many other islands and lands.
3
As far as “stealing” part of Mexico, there was a war and we won it.
Just the big guys maneuvering to justify raising oil prices globally
4
So, it is EU against USA. Very dangerous! Trump could burn a house he found a aunt in.
1
It is NOT Iran and the West - it is Iran and Israel with Saudi tag-along and USA as mercenary.
13
1. Let's the Brits fight for it. It is not our fight
2. The US canceled the Nuclear Treaty on the instigation of
Israel , who NEVER believed it was working
3. The aim of Israel's politics to have the US, rather than
them take out the Iranian reactors.
We should not fall for it
Let Israel take bomb them. They know how, having
previously taken out reactor in Syria and Iraq to
keep their nuclear monopoly in the Mid-East
4
@Lars
Yes. It would be good to let Israel and Saudi Arabia spend their blood and gold on Middle Eastern wars instead of getting the US to do it.
Next thing, Our Leader will be saying that we shot down the drone, AND CAPTURED THE PILOT!
8
Maybe now, the last vestiges of oil company lapdogs in the Trump Wall st White House and Congress will see the wisdom of harnessing free energy here in America. I mean really; what does it take to convince these mental midgets that we are constantly at war over oil?
1
Iran's mullahs have the U.S. and UK in their pocket---terrified of starting a war, doing as they please!! They'll keep seizing ships and demanding concessions.
4
@Mike Ransmil That is true, But was instigated by Trump by cancelling a legitimate and well thought out Nuke deal. So what did you expect?
2
War is a glorious abstract to the draft-dodger-in-chief, but you can see the ginned up "patriot leader"aspect has got to appeal to his massive ego.
6
Let's just hope they didn't interrupt their "Death To America!" chants during Friday prayers in Tehran simply to announce their latest hostage-taking caper.
1
@NorthernVirginia - And how long have we been shouting "Death to Iran" ?? Has Iran ever invaded the U.K. or the U.S. and overthrown their government? Both the U.K. and the U.S. have a long, ugly history in Iran all for oil. If any two countries on earth invaded Virginia and overthrew your government and took over, I assure you that all of your neighbors would fight back forever. :) A lot of your neighbors still fly a Confederate flag:)
3
Breaking the agreement was not a Trump´s good decision. He should have tried to modify it. Although it was not optimal, the agreement was used in Iran to modify part of its economic structure. Iran is the largest Islamic state and bring economic welfare to a large part of the Muslim Shiites was good.
In 2012 Ahmadinejad (he has not my sympathy) gave a great speech at the UN and among other things spoke of the arrival of Iman Mahdi, who would come with Jesus, to advise the world how to get out of the current stalemate. That moment, is close, very close. This being, is the Maitreya Buddha of the Buddhists, the Christ of the Christians, the Messiah of the Jews and the Iman Mahdi of the Muslims, all religions expect an avatar, which is part of the planetary spiritual hierarchy.
This moment is transcendental in the human history:
http://nuevaeconomiaycompartir.blogspot.com.ar/2012/08/la-ayuda-de-maitreya-esta-muy-cerca.html
http://nuevaeconomiaycompartir.blogspot.com.ar/2014/02/el-reagrupamiento-del-pensamiento.html
World have many problems, but they have a solution: “Share the resources”: http://nuevaeconomiaycompartir.blogspot.com.ar/2016/03/resumen-del-blog-el-desafio-de-crear-un.html
1
I remember when Trump was bellowing how the US should *take* the oil from Iraq as payment for our efforts there.
What a wacko
9
There is a lesson we need to learn from our "forever wars". We can never lose such a war as long as we pour in enough personnel and supplies. But we can never really win one, either. That is because we can always go home while our enemies have nowhere else to go. We never have a vision of a post-conflict equilibrium state that will allow us to go home.
A war against Iran now will be more costly than any of our regime changes, Afghanistan or Iraq. Iran is much bigger, more sophisticated, and Iranians hate us with a passion.
I don't see any of our traditional allies signing on with us for this one. We broke the nuclear deal and clamped on sanctions. And we are menacing Iran in their own waters. We are clearly the aggressors with no excuse. But Israel and Saudi Arabia might sign on. I wonder how the US public feels about this adventure?
8
Till UK did not seize Iranian oil tankers, it was US versus the other signators to Iranian nuclear deal formally known as JCPOA. Now that UK is getting a less desirable divorce from the EU and seizing Iran’s biggest oil tanker ship to appease US, now American media is calling this contention as Iran vs the West. The same way US sought umbrella protection when it attacked Iraq under false pretense of Saddam having nuclear weapons. The nuclear deal is still intact although Trump unilaterally and unjustly ripped it apart. So let’s not buy false legitimacy to an action that is truly undiplomatic and inhuamne for the potential catastrophe it can cause. Let’s not provide cover for a rogue policy.
3
Our sanctions against Iran was an offensive act of war. Why are we surprised that they are retaliating? Wouldn't we? No we usually do things preemptively so we would rather invade, attack, or marginalize when a country is not receptive to open markets on our terms and such. These imperial games we have been playing around the world without accountability whatsoever is closing in on us. Exceptionalism is a myth and we need to stop basking in its lies. We are an empire controlled by corporations who have been on a profit at all costs spree for some time. These events in Iran is just a type of the blowback that happens for things Americans are clueless about.
7
Sanctions are not generally considered an act of war.
2
@randomxuz Oh... then « generally », obviously leaves room for «exceptions » I assume.
Progressively choking someone to death is often be seen as a form of sanction by the choker. It’s nonetheless however « generally » seen as a murder in court.
Where do you draw the line?
Just curious.
1
Now that Trump has shown he's more bluster than fire, the Iranians will ratchet up tension among Europeans to coerce them into ignoring the sanctions put in place by the US.
5
Why aren't these ships armed with 50 caliber machine guns and a couple surface-to-air missiles? I never understood the Somali hijacks and I don't understand these either.
Shoot down a helicopter or two and things might change. But hire some pros to protect those ships.
1
@Mike BRILLIANT! That sure would also boost the NRA philosophy into a whole new worldwide dimension!
Can’t wait to see how the Northrop Grumman shareholders will get thrilled with these business perspectives... unless of course some competitors from Russia, China, Italy or France get the deal.
Better make sure that any commercial airliners stay far away. I personally don’t trust “pros” so much. :/
1
we all remember that all major
- and most likely all minor - wars
were preceded by BIG LIES.
let's just hope all parties concerned
[including the generals on either side]
are not in the mood for yet another war
on earth now.
[while djt explains, the US can easily
make things much worse for iran.]
4
There is only one solution: reinstate the 2015 nuclear deal but call it Trump's deal and swear every one to secrecy on the fact it is the same deal, at least until after the 2020 election. They would have to "disappear" Bolton to keep it a secret, or at least not allow him to appear on Fox News, fire him, and call everything he says as fake news.
2
The US withdrew from the Iran deal, but Europe and Britain are still part of it. Correct?
Now that Iran has brazenly reneged and is taunting a war, why haven't Britain and Europe "snapped back" the sanctions on Iran. That was part of the deal, no?
Unless the deal was just a charade .. as Trump told us.
3
@Bhaskar that’s exactly what the war mongers in the White House want. The Europeans want to keep the deal alive even if it is on life support.
4
@Bhaskar
The deal includes a dispute resolution mechanism where all sides can raise their problems and a snap back of the sanctions is one of the many possible remedies. If the EU, Russia and China would want to start this procedure, then that would also allow Iran to raise the sanctions which are a violation of the deal. Iran has said that it is willing to go back to sticking to the strict limits on its nclear program if a remedy for the sanctions having been reimposed is found.
So, the dispute resolution procedure would very likely lead to the EU, Russia and China having to compensate Iran for the loss of oil revenues due to the US sanctions.
3
@Bhaskar. Yes, you are semantically correct. The UE (and the other vast majority of countries signing the deal) are in fact bound to the deal and still striving to keep it alive though you singularly pulled away from your former engagement.
You however apparently miss a MAJOR piece of the puzzle.
Your withdrawal not only led to deeper US sanctions on Iran (your prerogative no matter how diplomatically questionnable) but it also came along with A VERY CLEAR THREAT from the US to also implement MAJOR sanctions on any non US company not abiding nor complying with the US economical sanctions against Iran.
Not only you want to impose sanctions on Iran but you also threaten every body else of serious economical retaliation if trying to bypass your sanctions regardless of our own sovereign foreign policy. You are therefore messing up the whole deal by changing all the rules. It is basically plain bribery.
Iran is in fact actually more like snapping back at us for not fully respecting our trade commitment at this point and we are bit cornered in some catch 22 case.
If you leave the poker table taking every body’s chips off the table, the game gets quite complicated you must understand... At least there is apparently no doubt about that.
2
All in all, it would be better to not have an insane CiC right now.
1
Apparently weary from fighting wars for Saudi Arabia and Israeli, the U.S. has duped the Brits into doing the fighting instead of Americans.
So, how many Scots and Northern Irishmen will the U.K. sacrifice in this most recent conflict "the Empire" has started with Iran?
3
@Been There
Few, I guess. The cost of clinging to Uncle Sam's coat tails over Iraq (x2) and Afghanistan has reduced the UK's armed forces to a shadow.
I'm pretty sure there is near zero public support for joining into any more US military adventures.
2
The straight of Hormuz is a giant banana peel for western nations to slip on and fall directly into war with Iran. Have nations learned nothing from the Iraq war debacle?????
Diplomacy and cool heads is the only solution here.. on all sides of the tension.
3
The second tanker seized is the M/T Mesdar, a true super tanker of over 300,000 deadweight tons, 1100 feet long (longer than an American nuclear carrier) and 196 feet wide, built 2007 in China.
They don't come any bigger anymore. The few bigger ones built before are now out of service, because they were so big they couldn't get into almost any port, or even though the Straits at Singapore.
Although it is "flagged" in Liberia, it is British owned. A "flag of convenience" means nothing about who actually owns or operates a ship. For all practical purposes this too is a British ship.
3
Wait! Iran isn’t just silently waiting for USA to destroy their economy? This isn’t fair!
3
A good negotiation tactic, frankly. They are mirroring Trump's behavior of escalation and negotiating to deadlock. If they are timid, they will get pushed around. If they punch us in the nose, they might get a seat at the table.
They have nothing to lose but to escalate with the intention of forcing a negotiation or an end of some sort.
202
@Ian
The question is, who is "us"? The U.S. shoot a drone, so Iran attacks a British tanker? Even by Trump standards that must be broken logic.
3
@Ian
Iran literally invented chess.
12
@Ian
They have nothing to lose but their ships and missile bases you mean. Not to mention their European 'allies' in the JCPOA. You cheerlead for them with a smirk and a smile. How American of you.
13
Sure will be a nice change of pace when addiction to fossil fuels ends and the rest of the world will have no compelling security interest in caring what happens in the Straits of Hormuz, or how the feuding between Iran and Saudi Arabia pans out.
They have a generation or two, tops, to figure out what their next act is before petroleum is no longer a path to wealth.
So hey, fossil-fuel nations who run your economies on old carbon. Start figuring out what you do when electric cars collapse the global demand for petroleum. Hint - wars would be an expensive way to waste money.
1
Iran has not invaded U.K and captured its vessel. It only captured the vessels that might have entered its maritime zone. Doesn’t U.K do that ?
4
@Sivaram Pochiraju
No, it doesn't.
2
@Moehoward
The concept of Gibraltar's 'sovereignty' is a bit difficult to explain - but the fact that the MV Grace 1 was boarded by British Royal Marines is all you need to know.
Grace 1 is owned by a Russian company operating out of UAE but the cargo, one million tonnes of partly refined petroleum product, is totally Iranian.
2
Incorrect:
"Anybody who flies commercially available drones knows, that if the control signal is lost, the bird will automatically return home ..."
Many Americans seem not to know this, but on 12/5/11, the Iranians took control of a US drone, landed it at a military base in eastern Iran, and then displayed it on television and reverse-engineered it. Ironically, the Iranian drone allegedly shot down yesterday by the US may have incorporated technology from that earlier US drone.
2
@Commenter
2011 is way too long ago for the average American to remember.
1
Saber rattling by Iran. Next step will be ships of war being present in the straits, American and English. Nothing more. Iran certainly does not want a head to head with the US and neither do we. These actions by Iran are meant to open a dialogue with the US.
1
@NOTATE REDMOND -- "Next step will be ships of war being present in the straits, American and English."
Next? We've been doing that for years. They are there now, and have been all along.
3
@NOTATE REDMOND our ships have been there for decades on patrol.
2
No doubt the stable genius will find some novel way to turn a bad situation into a much worse situation. Bonus points for him if it costs us untold $trillions.
So much winning!
9
Seizing the ships is "unacceptable"?
No, it is an act or war.
Like it or not it is an act of war.
5
@Jake
It's a commercial ship, not a warship.
\
And unlike GW said, it's not an act of war it's an act of terrorism.
1
Like when the Brits seized an Iranian tanker?
6
Depends on the reason
Iran is the size of Iraq + Afghanistan + Syria. We could not defeat any of those alone. A war with the equivalent of all three would go really great.
6
@JS, they will shower us with roses,
welcome us as liberators, it will be a cake walk!
1
Well, to be fair, we never really tried with Syria. It’s not like they crossed a red line or anything...
1
We are to the point that believing any word coming out of the mouth of many world leaders is impossible, starting from the disappointing credibility of this president, Donald J. Trump.
3
Zero, so far:
"I wonder how many will die for this political Republican theater?"
If Hillary Clinton were President, on the other hand, many US troops ALREADY would have died in Syria, and many more would soon die in Iran.
Trump may be an orange-haired buffoon, but he's proven himself to be more "peaceful" than HRC. Let's not forget that she backed George W. Bush in his invasion of Iraq. I acknowledge that she opposed the Vietnam War, but that was 50 years ago! She's made up for lost time since then by becoming a war-monger par excellence.
7
@Commenter - How did the Repubicans talk the Iranians into seizing the ships.
1
@Commenter - Trump is on record with Howard Stern supporting the Iraq war 6 months before it began. He would have voted in favor just like Hillary.
@tom harrison
The difference is that Hillary was a sitting senator at the time, and had resources to inform herself a civilian does not. it was literally part of her job description.
At the time, Trump was a celebrity going on Howard Stern and running beauty pageants. It wasn't his job to inform himself about Iraq.
HRC is also on record as goading Obama to send military ships toward North Korea, as if baiting a man child with missiles is ever a good idea.
Like Trump or not, I'm confident he's not going to let Britain "lead" -- on this, or on anything else:
"President Trump, Please don't do it again. Please do not allow the Brits to lead..."
2
@Commenter
You're still fretting about 1953? A critique of Gen. Burgoyne's tactical skills?
Or, is this about an attempt to blame the UK for the outcome of America's military adventures, in Afghanistan and, twice, in Iraq?
The UK is utterly unprepared to deal with this tempest and Trump would love to see Britain needing rescue. Prime Minister May needs to take a big pull of her gin and tonic and release her captive Iranian oil tanker and send a Senior ex-politician to Teheran to beg forgiveness. You cannot be a bully with Iran unless you have two flattops loaded with radar evading warplanes armed with bunker busting firecrackers. Britain might have a handful of sneaky birds but with very little reach. Being beholding to Trump is much worse than anything associated with Brexit. In fact, Brexit has taken away any role Britain previously enjoyed on the world stage and today, -- are just a tiny Island off the coast of Europe. Can you imagine if floppy headed Boris were Prime Minister as the tanker load would be Beefeaters backed up to One Downing Street. What a terrible mess the UK conservatives unloaded on the citizenry.
4
@terry brady
Spot on - and the US cold shoulder on this is a wonderful boost for those hoping Brexit doesn't happen.
My nagging worry is that the most militant of Brexit's supporters are begin to interweave the 'Leave' narrative with aspirations to greatly expand the UK's armed forces. A certain Chancellor in the 1930s also sought power, prestige and 'respect' for his broken European nation by exactly that method. It didn't turn out well.
The toothless British government decided that to exert its flaccid muscles by seizing an Iranian tanker off Gibraltar a few days ago to please the United States. The Iranians reciprocated by grabbing one (or two) of British vessels. That's the definition of quid pro quo.
The days when Britain engineered (along with the CIA) a 1953 coup d'état in Iran, and overthrew the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh ushering the abysmal monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, are long gone...but are never forgotten by the Iranians.
8
Why are all the Most Recommended comments about Trump?
Remember that trolls and bots from those with their own agendas, agendas usually intended to promote division in America, are common and easily pump up recommends.
As this is about the seizure of a British ship, I would suggest checking the B.B.C. for current info with applicable perspective.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49053383
6
Calling the bully's bluff by picking on his adoring cult follower sidekick : Britain. Because the cult leader will always throw his followers under the bus when they become inconvenient for him.
A cautionary tale for MAGAheads.
5
July 19, 2019
Turn the Iran oil tanker problem over to the UN Security Counsel - vital interest on a global scale is cause for remedy especially in light of the climate factoring to say the lease....
jja
4
Donald J. Trump is the absolute last person you want in that Oval Office in (a) a big shooting conflict, or (b) a big national disaster. But it looks like he's bumbling us into (a) and California's been shakin' towards (b).
3
But they STILL want to negotiate with Trump?
2
Doesn't the relative calm of the JCPOA years 2015-2018 now seem a rather better platform from which to manage Iranian nuclear preparations and MIddle Eastern strategy more generally than the current chaos?
7
@longsummer and didn’t the relative calm of Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement of Hitler in the period 1936-40 provide a rather better platform to manage Hitler’s aggressive tendencies than the chaos of a Winston Churchill’s premiership?
1
@Richard
Er, Great Britain declared war on Germany in September 1939. I'd be interested to hear how Neville Chamberlain was 'appeasing' Hitler the year after.
Same sloppiness over the Munich business. It's much more nuanced than your historical appreciation of it.
1
@longsummer
It sure do
1
I don't think there is anything humorous about this grave situation. I also don't give Iran a pass, either. Iran's leaders and Revolutionary Guard are not innocents. They were behind the damaged tankers. Whether or not the US. stuck with the treaty, Iran would have jockeyed for a way to get around it. They want what they want, and have endured privation for decades due to the sanctions.
Fortunately, the Brits are not impulsive. Evidently, no one was impressed with Iran for increasing its stock of nuclear power so now they are seizing tankers for simply engaging in commerce -- something the Iranians cannot. Let's hope the British can reach an accord with Iran. But I would never believe anything Iran says over what Britan or our country says. I remember when our embassy was overrun and the employees taken hostage and subjected to terrorist treatment because we let the despised shah go to a U.S. hospital. It's not the act of a rational country. I doubt much has changed given the Revolutionary Guard is still in control.
ir and the Israeli intelligence is very good. Let's hope this can be
3
I assume President Trump has nothing to say because, as he always says, he doesn't want to let anyone know what his plans are.
There are no plans, There is no strategy. We are being led down the road to war by someone who hasn't a clue.
However, there is hope. Because as the bully he is, Trump always backs down when confronted. Be if fire and fury in North Korea, or assailing NATO, he doesn't have the fortitude to stay the path. Thank God.
8
Ummm, wasn't there just an article in the Times a week or so ago detailing how these tankers disable their tracking mechanisms so that they can slip into Iranian ports and load up on Iranian oil in violation of the imposed sanctions? Now, all of a sudden, these same ships are being seized by Iran. Stay focused people. Some folks mindsets are no broader than a brief news cycle...smh
6
It's not worth the oil.
3
I guess what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Someone ought to explain that to our self proclaimed genius of a President. In colloquial terms, if we can, so can they.
4
Taken down by the USS Boxer’s jamming or shot down doesn’t matter to me... A blatant act of aggression by Iran is condemnable.
3
@Charlie, how about Trump unilaterally cancelling the nuclear agreement that the US, and multiple nations, agreed to a few years ago with Iran?
If the US can't live up to the agreements we sign, why should Iran?
Trump's tactics are designed to destroy Iran, if Iran did that to us, would you be willing to roll over?
8
@Charlie
Where's the evidence? Where's the wreckage?
Iran is claiming the incompetent Boxer actually shot down down one of its own UAVs. Who's to say they're wrong about that?
Very old wisdom from the same part of the world, the New Testament of the Bible, Galatians 6:7:
“... whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.”
8
From the UK: "Stop or we will say stop again!"
4
No, no, no! This is a non-issue as long as America continues the greater sin of reneging on the very treaty that guaranteed Iran’s peaceful assimilation into the world community. Anything goes now while the US continues to act like a belligerent bully who lies constantly and blatantly reneges on his promises. And how do we know that it’s not Putin who is surreptitiously stoking Iran’s reactions right before the US election (I still believe he’s just a layer or two removed from the funding of the massive migration movement which peaked just before the midterms).
I don’t care what Iran does because it’s all in reaction to Trump who alone is responsible for the current crisis. Hold him responsible and take the US back into the treaty to which it committed before we do another stupid, pointless, adolescent male ape-like dominance display.
7
Its time to convoy up with warships protecting merchant craft.
3
Donald J. Trump commenting on the White House lawn, prior to departing for another golf outing on the tax payers dime:
“We”ll be working with the UK. They’ll be having a new Prime Minister, which is a good thing”.
Way to insult an Allied, Mr. President, at the very exact same time you will be offering assistance, in regards to the reported seizure of their oil tanker by Iran.
5
Back in the Dark Ages British Petroleum angered by democractically elected Iranian President Mohammad Mossedegh's threat to nationalize Iran's oil and cut into their corrupt crony capitalist corporate plutocrat oligarch welfare return ' profits' got the American and British government to concoct a coup to install the royal tyrant the Shah of Iran in power.
The British and their American allies have regularly and routinely sown the covert and overt regime change existential threat wind against Iran along with their Israeli and Saudi parasitea and they should real the whirlwind.
Now that Theresa May is headed to the exits and the British Donald Trump iaka Boris Johnson is headed to the entrance of No. 10 Downing Street after the Neanderthal New York City barbarians aka the Trump's behaved like their typical buffoonish selves during their 'state' visit the British don't deserve any respect nor help.
6
The US blindly followed the British Imperialists in 1953 to overthrow the democratically elected government of Dr. Mohammad Mosaddeq, a truly secularist who sincerely wanted to build a modern Iran in the image of the West. Advised by Tony Blaire ... and the mad 'Neocons' ... the US conducted the Iraq war the way it did. In both cases, consequences were disastrous.
President Trump, Please don't do it again. Please do not allow the Brits to lead. You were right by NOT acting the way your neocons ... and perhaps the neocons among the Tories … wanted you to act just after the Iranians shot at our drone. You were also right in ordering destruction of the provocative Iranian drone.
Do condemn the Iranian seizure of the British tanker Stena, but also ask the Brits to release the Iranian tanker they have seized near Gibraltar, offering for face-saving to buy the Iranian oil in the tanker expressing the hope that the money will be spent for buying food and medicine for Iranian people.
Please continue to give diplomacy a chance and be sincere in that.
144
@Malek Towghi
The Brits started this conflict - again.
There are many reasons to criticize the Iranian government, but defending itself from British mini-imperialism is not one of them.
10
@Malek Towghi
I agree with all you say except that "In both cases, consequences were disastrous."
The consequences were disastrous for the Iraqis. For the US and UK, not really. The US destroyed Iraq because we could, and the rest of the world did nothing because we are rich in dollars and bombs. Might makes right.
11
@Malek Towghi England follows us, not us following the British, and it is our problem or lack of diplomacy, but not always, how about Obama. It is Trump that is the cancer. I am not 100% sorry for Iran or anyone else in the Gulf, by the way. Like the Saudi war against innocent civilians in Yemen.
8
If the US decides to take on Iran, I fear the results will be similar to the US conflict with Iraq - no one wins, thousands of lives (on both sides) are claimed every year and the conflict goes on and on and on - very much like Viet Nam.
How is it that NOTHING has been learned from the US invasion in Iraq?
3
@Marge Keller, let alone the lessons of Viet Nam that we also haven't learned after 50 some odd years.
@Marge Keller - Good grief, the Korean War is still going on. Afghanistan?
Trump and his team have combined with the Iranians to create a real mess.
Let's hope all sides surprise us with good diplomacy.
Having enough U.S. associated force on hand to accompany ships or to be able to respond quickly enough to prevent further seizures seems likely to be rather costly and perhaps unsustainable for a very long duration.
On the other hand, using what some perceive as overwhelming U. S. force seems extremely risky and might have a disastrous outcome for all.
Good. The British re-enacted their licentious fantasies of imperial power by seizing and not returning an Iranian mega-tanker off of Gibraltar, by trying to exit the EU recklessly, by sending warships to the Persian Gulf and intervening in conflicts around the world. But this is not the 19th century. Britain is not a super power. There will be no easily won Opium War, nor acquiescence to petulant British demands. The two tankers can now simply be exchanged peacefully.
The UK must stop acting like Don Quixote, acting out a geopolitical role it can no longer occupy - that no longer exists.
64
@Basant Tyagi
Couldn't agree more my friend.
9
@Basant, I agree, but America always was petulant with nations all over. But now they don't know how to deal with the most petulant, arrogant, liar, unhinged president. We need a diplomatic approach. I don't see other solution. Don't forget the world don't respect Trump.
5
@Basant Tyagi you’re mistaken. The seizure came at the specific request of US Govt. This crisis (the wider confrontation with Iran) was born in the White House not London.
6
Serves the U.K. right for detaining the Iranian vessel at Gibralter. I am no fan of oil for use as energy, neither am I a fan of war.
But the Trump administration started this entire problem with Iran by exiting the Nuclear Accord, and then blocking other countries from using U.S. banks if they traded with Iran. He is trying to control other sovereign nations as if he was elected to do so. Is it any wonder they are resentful, to say the least? His administration is harming Iran's source of income, Europe's source of fuel, and in fact, overreaching his designated powers.
Iran had followed the accord, to the letter. There have only been problems since the Trump administration withdrawal. With his hawkish pitbulls, Bolton and Pompeo, not to mention Israel and Saudi Arabia, Trump is being pushed toward a war that no one wants.
The Congress even grew a spine and voted against selling arms to Saudi Arabia, an enemy of Iran, to get out of their war with Yemen.
I believe the American people are being lied to about what is really going on vis à vis Iranian, Saudi, UK, and Israeli oil-selling and weapons trading. Trump, despite the will of Congress, is pressing to sell arms to the Saudis and continue their fight against Yemen.
He continues to sanction the world as if he were its ruler, and squander the good will of allies and potential allies, by essentially making worse everything he touches...as he did in is life before being President.
8
None of this would have happened, if he and his team had not decertified the nuclear deal and imposed the sanctions. They have created a time bomb. And, I don't believe Trump.
5
Anybody who flies commercially available drones knows, that if the control signal is lost, the bird will automatically return home, the precise location of which (GPS coordinates) is programmed into their brain.
So this 'destroyed it by jamming' is bunk.
@waldo
Oh, thank you.
Good to know.
USA got involved into the Viet Nam War and lost. Viet Nam folks call it The American War. USA was so fearful of communist spread in the southeast Asia region and it did not happen. These beautiful folks wanted to be left alone and they are doing well. Ideology did not work. USA under Bolton and Donald with allies of MBS, and Netanyahu have entered the rabid confrontations. It is not about ideology this time but about religion and ethnicity which are far more dangerous. Viet Nam and Persian civilizations have existed way before USA became a sovereign country. Again USA has entered a war that I called American War V2.0 by this thoughtless without end game strategy Administration. We can relish the victories of WW1 and WW2 but those days are gone. The present situation deals with complex geopolitical, economic and cyber wars. Military hardware will not achieve its objectives.
1
@Uly
Persia got involved in a war with Genghis Khan and lost.
Don't tug on a tiger's tail.
The dissembling occupant of the White House offers false statements about the Iran nuclear deal, probably because it was negotiated by the Obama administration (he appears to hate all things Obama), leading to Iran rebuilding its uranium supply and acting bellicose. Now we seem to be inching closer to an aggressive confrontation that uses weapons. With Trump in charge of the nuclear codes, perhaps someone with courage will explain how insane his actions have been and how escalating confrontations with Iran would lead to nothing good and perhaps to something quite destructive. Can't we find anyone stable enough, strong enough, and willing enough to find a path forward using diplomacy? Perhaps this sentiment is naive but we avoided this type of confrontation during the Obama and even the Bush years.
Funny how these military escapades always happen shortly before elections with GOP presidents in office. It was the standard playbook of both Bushes although George Sr’s Gulf War didn’t propel him to a second term like he hoped. The GOP knows a war in the Middle East will insulate Trump from criticism as 2020 approaches. I wonder how many will die for this political Republican theater?
3
The president claims that Iran is nothing but trouble, but this trouble seems to have escalated since he reimposed sanctions on Iran and withdrew from the nuclear deal with that country. I am not aware of any tankers being seized by Iran under Obama.
1
Blood for oil. This is why I purchased an electric car, and my house is 100% electric.
1
You'd almost want to smile if the stakes weren't so high and lethal. The reason for this next war will fall under pretext "I can't stand my predecessor and his legacy, therefore I am going to invade another country."
This is what happens when you pull out of a treaty to spite Obama, add sanctions, and back Iran into a corner. Totally understandable, yet I don't agree with this agressive tactic. What is the exit strategy if the bombs begin to drop, Mr. Trump?
1
It was my understanding from earlier reports that the British Navy was escorting it's tankers. So is the British Navy headed to Iran as well? This doesn't add up.
There will be no war because Trump is too cautious to be involved in one. We're still learning about this guy, but one trend that seems to be solidifying is that he makes hellish threats against countries that are far worse than ones made by previous presidents, then u-turns and acts as if he never meant those threats. We saw it with North Korea, Venezuela and most recently in his supposed last minute decision to cancel an attack against Iran. I believe it's a continuation of tactics he developed as a businessman, supplemented by the dramatic acting abilities he perfected on TV. In business there is no military option so he never learned how to wield it. How ironic that this uncouth man may, in the end, get fewer serving Americans killed than any other president since 1945.
Keep the sanctions tight, neutralize any threats to tankers or our ships with prejudice.
4
So far, we have gotten off rather easy with the ineptitude of this administration.
I fear we may soon long for the carefree days of nothing more troubling than Sunday morning twitter rants.
2
America should have learned it's lesson about Iran when they held American Hostages and chanted death to America (which they still do, even under Obama). Then President Obama and Valerie Jarrett, the Iranian, come along and agree to a horrible nuclear deal that no one actually signed so that President Obama could send them 150 billion dollars with a few billion in untraceable paper currency. What do you think the Iranians did with the untraceable currency? Trump is right to denounce Iran and treat them like an enemy because they are.
1
Put this mess where it belongs, in Trump's lap. "Mr. Trump pulled the United States out of the landmark 2015 nuclear accord and began imposing a series of punishing economic sanctions on Tehran." What's Iran supposed to do, bow and scrape to our foreign-policy-challenged dictator? The narcissist's obsession with destroying Obama's legacy has no rationale except jealousy and the desire to get even with Obama for some witty remarks pointed at Hair Furor at the National Correspondents' Dinner. Our strongman's skin is far too thin.
1
It is proper and altogether correct to attribute all of the subsequent escalation to the present administration's abandonment of President Obama's pretty good Iran deal.
The WMD lie of the last Republican administration, which Bolton participated in, got us into the disastrous second Iraq war.
Congress: You must not authorize any Iran military action.
Everything the present administration has done vis-a-vis Iran has been based on fecklessness, dishonesty, fact-free rightwing extremism, racism, and a racist anti-Obama obsession.
Trump, Bolton and Pompeo have lied thousands of times. There is no reason to believe them now.
4
A few bombs in the right places will change their minds. Khomeni should keep in mind the image of Saddam Hussein hiding in a pit. Anyone who thinks Iran can win a war with the US is delusional. We do not have to send a single soldier.
2
@logodos
Sure. Piece of cake. They will welcome us as liberators.
How many Iranian deaths are acceptable to you?
2
We won in Iraq? I missed that victory. And we won in Afghanistan. Missed that victory too.
1
@logodos, But if we have to send troops, are you volunteering to go first?
2
The US and UK learned nothing from the Iraq war fiasco.
If this ends in conflict, I hope all the refugees produces by this will end up on American and British shores, for a change.
You reap what you sow.
1
@Thomas
Oh, I forgot to even consider the refugees.
They won’t be coming to the US though, would you. ?
2
Why so much focus on the Iranian drone and whether to believe the Iranians or POTUS? The drone is a red herring. A Britsh tanker with human beings on board has been seized by the Iranians! Where are our priorities? Democrat or Republican, anyone in between or beyond, shouldn't we be concerned about the illegal seizure of a ship and the lives at stake? I don't think any of us would want our relatives and friends in that position.
1
I get this feeling that current Ayatollah has read "The Mouse that Roared" We go to war with them and we end up supporting their failed economy. Of course as in the book be careful what you wish for. :)
1
@Bill
I was thinking about “The Mouse That Roared” just today.
Let’s see what the crystal ball portends. Another chicken hawk debacle costing tens of thousands of lives while driving the world economy into a ditch - all because Trump couldn’t wait to undo everything Obama accomplished and because he needs a “wag the dog” re-election strategy. When gas hits 7 bucks a gallon do you suppose his base will finally arouse from their Make America White Again Kool-Aid induced slumber? I doubt it.
1
So much for appeasing dictators.
The only response possible is to destroy all Iranian revolutionary guard ships, planes and impose a sink on site blockade of Iran.
Even eurofools have to see that when attacked you have to fight back.
2
Iran said it wanted to cool things down, but did this instead. Meanwhile Trump has no idea how to prevent a war. It's not even clear he wants to prevent war, since a war might raise his standing among his less-hard-core base.
Fools all around.
President Trump to Iran following its seizure of the British tanker: "Send her back."
1
There is an easy way out of this. Trump gives Britain a waver to unload the Iranian tanker at a European port and the refiner pays Iran at the market rate without delay. Then the empty tanker can go on its way.
I think it is unlikely Trump wants a full war with Iran. He started this because he disliked Iranian nuclear treaty as one of Obama's record so he cancelled it. He does not have the stomach for a full blow war. An invasion of Iran will be pointless, waste lots of lives but a blockage would be much more effective. Iran has an impressive SAM force and small boat craft. This is in effect a proxy war with Russia since they have provided Iran with a lot of the SAMS (Iran has also copied a lot of those SAMS). Though Russia probably does not want to destabilize the region. I would guess an air war is now inevitable. Invasion of Iran very unlikely and pointless since Iraq proved that containing a population after military defeat is impossible. But a blockade is much more likely. Bottling up Iran is probably the next step.
41
@kariato
You are assuming that Trump sees the world as you describe it.
He doesn't.
There will be a war with Iran.
The only miracle is that it has taken so long in coming.
Once they have atomic weapons, which is very near, they will be like North Korea, a lunatic with the ability to do anything they want.
It is now or never.
Let us pray that it is now.
3
@simon sez "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons."
22
@simon sez If you were NK or Iran, why wouldn't you want the bomb and for everyone to think you are crazy enough to use it?
Don is getting us involved in a centuries old religious conflict with Israel and Saudi Arabia beating the drum to attack Iran. We aren't defenders of the faith. Don needs to extricate us from this mess and try to bring a little common sense to that region. Of course, when it comes to religions, there is no such thing as common sense.
12
I feel awkward and sad to say this, but after hearing demonstrable lies on a daily basis from the current President of the United States, I believe the Iranian Foreign Minister.
Further, a national emergency is the next step in the autocratic template that this administration has been checking off all along: casting political rivals as enemies; vilifying the media; establishing laws across the country to suppress the votes of expected non-supporters; appointing collaborators to the highest levels of government; rejecting outright and--illegally--refusing to honor subpoenas and to appear before Congressional investigative committees; and, of course, casting non-whites as the reason for all of America's problems, past, present and future.
The final step is either a terrorist attack on U.S. soil or a war to unite enough citizens to re-elect the most corrupt President in American history so the administration can complete the plan in a second term. This administration needs a war with Iran. I'm keeping my eyes and ears open and thinking critically about any news related to Iran.
735
@JDM
Well you know what Trump would say in response to your comment: "If that's the way you feel why don't you just go strait back to Iran?"
77
@Jay Orchard Precisely, including the misspelling. :) Which, I am sure, was intentional on your part.
57
@JDM
The war is scheduled to begin on the evening of July 24th immediately following Bob Mueller's testimony before congress.
192
It's nerve racking at best to witness the steady ripple effects of Trump's decision to pull the US out of the 2015 nuclear accord and then impose "a series of punishing economic sanctions on Tehran."
Cannot help by feel this is/was all done by design to purposely provoke a conflict between Iran and the West.
For the life of me, I cannot fathom nor comprehend how or why such a motive and move might benefit the U.S.
13
@Marge Keller -- There are some in both Saudi Arabia and Israel who think it would benefit them. These include people with great influence like MbS and Netanyahu, who both have a lot of hangers-on in the US, including Bolton.
I think they're wrong, it would not benefit them, it would more likely produce disaster for them.
It would also benefit our oil industry owners. They'll sell the same oil regardless, but they'll get a lot more money for that oil, all profit, if world prices go up. World price would go up from war in the oil producing countries. They've got war or threat of war now in ALL of the oil producing countries, from Venezuela to Iran, and some totally wrecked like Libya.
The Iraq War start was explained by Wolfowitz as lies around which varied interests could be rallied, each for its own perceived interests. They were not motivated by the lies, likely didn't believe them, but they went along for their many varied interests of their own. We see that here, again.
5
@Mark Thomason
So it's all about money, greed and power.
Gosh, I am so sick of these senseless entanglements in which servicemen and women on both sides pay the ultimate price, not to mention their families and loved one.
Thanks for another one of your well thought out and detailed explanations. I always learn something from your comments.
4
Will anyone ever learn from history? War with Iran is a no win situation, the country is huge, mountainous, and they’ve had plenty of time to build up and stash weapons. The people of Iran don’t want a war, but some of the hardliners in the regime do. Trump may not want war, but some in his administration do. Does the Gulf of Tonkin ring any bells? Does alleged weapons of mass destruction ring any bells? How’d we do in those wars? Viet Nam was a disaster, Iraq was a disaster, and Afghanistan is still a disaster. We do not need, nor can we afford another Middle East war. Cooler heads need to prevail, hot heads need to be weeded out before it’s too late.
30
"War with Iran is a no win situation,"
That's why santions are the way to go.
Trump has not been a war hawk in spite of whatever other faults he may have.
2
@Canewielder >War with Iran is a no win situation, the country is huge, mountainous, and they’ve had plenty of time to build up and stash weapons
The vast historical superiority of the US military is recognized by Leftists only when they condemn it for defending the West. Total war against Iran would result in US victory in five minutes. Conventional war would take a bit longer. The Leftist mind, trapped within itself in transcendental self-awarness, is not shared by everyone. Others look out at reality.
This is going to end very badly for the entire world. Not a single country will come out of it unharmed. Thank you, Mr. Trump. You’re playing the first card, but not the last.
19
Continued escalation. Possible 2nd British ship seized. Wars have been started for less.
11
100% caused by Trump. So frustrating.
21
You know things are really messed up when the Republican Party looks worse than the Iranian government.
44
If we go to war with Iran, the entire Middle East will go up in flames. Saudi Arabia will be the first to go up in flames.
The unintended consequences of a war with Iran are unknowable, and possibly catastrophic.
12
@New World
Possibly catastrophic? I'd say likely.
1
If we go to war with Iran the following must happen.
1. We have to take and hold the entire coast line for 75 years as we are still in other countries as we still don’t trust them.
2. We will spend trillions on this one.
3. Other countries we don’t along with will have free reign as our coin and lives will be tied up.
It looks like some lessons have to be learned the hard way.
The days of us dictating are almost over. We just haven’t realized it yet.
Its far easier for all sides to comprise a bit.
1
@New World This is what the Trump crowd wants.
1
Why doesn't the British send a destroyer to the area and literally just sink any foreign vessel that comes within 200 yards of any of its oil tankers after being warned? That's what the US should do as well. Give a first radio warning, a second warning shot across the bow, and then sink them if they don't back off.
8
I’m sure that’ll work just fine. (Insert sarcasm now!).
1
@Winston -- There are a lot more tankers than there are British Navy ships. Right now it is two Royal Navy ships to protect dozens of tankers. A third is on its way, and that is about all they've got. So it isn't a very good plan for them to start shooting.
3
@Winston So you're suggesting that all British oil tankers should cluster around a single destroyer? You don't see any issues with this plan?
3
Question for Trumps loyal "base".
Is this what his promised "so much winning you'll be tired of it" looks like to you?
If the answer is yes, then my second question is;
Will you still feel that way when we're involved in another war for oil and the price of gas hits $5.00 a gallon?
10
Wouldn’t the liberals love expensive gas, being greener and all?
Trump wanted a war for diversion and he just might get one. Hold on to your wallets and your children old enough to serve in the military.
11
Why should we give Iran a break over President Trump? I mean really, I will never trust the Ayatollas, "the men of the cloth" who have concentrated the whole power of decision in the hands of of a few clerics who run Iran by fear, kidnappings, disappearance, election fraud, etc., etc., etc.. I will never trust people who proclaim they speak for Allah or God, and all men and women must listen to them or else... These Iranian clerics are parasites who reign by fear and exploit people by fostering ignorance and superstitions.
Younger Iranians will eventually get rid of their clerics and their police of virtue, but not today and probably not tomorrow because after 40 years of Islamic dictatorship, it's become ingrained in many. It is not easy for the younger generation to openly tell a tyrant that his oppression is coming to an end. Just like in China or in Russia, North-Korea or else in Cuba, Iranians who tried free speech in the public discourse, have exposed themselves and their family to grave dangers; everybody knows that. Let's not be so quick at giving the Iranian ayatollas a pass.
1
The British government won't stand idly by with Iran seizing their tanker. This will come down to diplomacy with a comprised solutions. I would not be surprise that the British government will send some Navy vessels to make sure their tankers won't be seized.
@kunio -- They've already sent all they've got. Two. With a third on its way.
If they mean not to stand idly by, they could do a deal to release the Iranian tanker they've detained in Gibraltar, when they started all this.
2
Iran has jumped the shark this time. If the UK wants to defend its tanker, the U.S. will have to go along.
Will diplomacy win out? Oh yeah, I forgot that Trump doesn't believe in the State Department, he just believes in supposed strength.
8
@Steve, Let's hit Iran hard and show em who's boss. What's the worst that can happen, gas prices skyrocket, a little global recession, lose some lives? No big deal.
1
Good for Iran! The UK and the EU abandoned Iran to the hostile and irrational demands of our fool of a president and his closest warmongers, and they then had the temerity to unilaterally enforce Britain's last spate of imperial dictates. The US, the UK, and the EU had a change to salvage Iran from Trump's Zionist sympathies, but they cowardly knuckled under to Trump and Netanyahu. Time to play hardball.
6
@SPQR
Not sure we should be giving kudos to Iran, despite their attempt to survive with the sanctions inappropriately placed by the US.
Limited military engagements have a way of taking on a life of their own.
4
@Jao
Yes, you point out a significant danger. But I think it would me much worse if Iran is ill-treated by the US for 70 years (cf. Israel occupation and oppression).
For years the Iranians have acted like a bunch of medieval barbarians. If they want negotiations to end the current impass then the piratical hijacking of ships in international waters is not the way of doing it. Last week the Foreign Secretary, Jeremy Hunt offered to free the Iranian tanker detained in Gibraltar if Iran guaranteed the oil would not be delivered to Syria in violation of international sanctions, the fact that Iran has ignored this shows that is exactly where that oil was destined for and still is. I don't know what the future holds in regard to the current events but I have an idea that this is not going to end well. The UK cannot be seen to give in to Iranian blackmail and threats, no Government would survive it. To date this week Iran has now detained three ships, how many more in the pipeline.
Isn't it finally time to ignore the Middle East, and let it governments remain in the stone ages?
5
Iranians have been living on borrowed time for 40 years, ever since they took US hostages and ended Jimmy Carter’s presidency. Time’s up.
6
@Richard Ever heard of Mossadegh?
This problem can be settled. Just keep the idiot Trump out of it.
7
The context seems lost on many people. This is a direct response to the British seizing an Iranian vessel. Just a little old fashioned tit-for-tat “diplomacy.” Nothing to lose sleep over.
31
@Michael Friedman Exactly. This is tit-for-tat for UK seizing an Iranian tanker in Gibraltar and failing to release it after negotiations for three weeks now.
5
When the US and Nicaragua were on the brink of war during the Reagan years, a common graffiti in Managua read:
To the yankee: We cannot stop you from coming in. But we will make sure you do not get out.
We are still stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan. Someone should warn the Brits and trump about the quagmire ahead.
22
This unhinged president knows absolutely nothing, because he has no capacity to learn anything, or respect anyone, this a fact. His daily ability of lying is dangerous, specially when tensions are boiling in the Strait of Hormuz. John Bolton, the NSA, is biggest instigated in forever hawk, will excite the grandiose Trump more and more to provoke Iran . Before things go completely out of control, I believe a diplomatic arrangement with Iran should be crucial. We all know how Trump loves to play with fire. His psychopath behavior will be a key point. He wants to became the Warrior of the World. We need to have adults to engage in negotiations. I only hope.
10
@linzt
It seems that most of this escalation has taken place since Trump left the agreement with Iran.
5
Three facts are the only ones that matter.
First, Trump lies about everything and the Iranians are almost as bad as Trump. More to the point, both Trump and the Iranian leaders are barking more for their domestic audiences than the international space. Rally their bases and demean or worse their opponents.
Second, Iran will cease to exist as a sovereign nation should they push this too far. That reality does not exonerate Trump nor does it make Trump look like a statesman. Trump has no honor and he is a conman. But make no mistake, the Ayatollah and his guardsmen will go the same way as Saddam Hussein. And they know it.
Three, the sanctions are obviously destroying the Iranian economy and creating factions within the ruling circle. Whether the sanction raise the everyday Iranian to a heightened state of nationalism or creates resentment and rebellion is tbd. Somebody may act out of desperation or frustration in which case, see #2.
One unexpected lesson may / not be learned by the theocrats who translate god's will for the unwashed.
That lesson is this:
President Obama reached out to both the Shiites and the Sunnis when he took office. He reset America's relations with Israel, angering all of those who consider Israel to be an unofficial 51st state. He did these things in a gesture of trying to bridge decades of mistrust.
Both the Sunnis and the Shiites scorned President Obama. They should have trusted him. Now they have Trump. What a waste.
15
Why are all the Most Recommended comments about Trump?
Remember that trolls and bots from those with their own agendas, usually intended to promote division in America, are common and easily pump up recommends.
As this is about the seizure of a British ship, I would suggest checking the B.B.C. for current info with applicable perspective.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49053383
11
@Steve Fankuchen
The reason comments critical of Trump get so many "likes" is that anyone who has read the political and international press for the past two years know that Trump tells us nothing but lies, Netanyahu is even worse than Trump, and we are now standing on the precipice of a wholly avoidable war against a population that respects the US and is being threatened by Trump and Netanyahu, two lying cowards.
1
The Iranian regime is a global criminal organisation with links to international terrorism... We should start a limited strike campaign against their coastal naval facilities and known uranium enrichment sites... I realise this is risky but it's time (after 40 years of menace and murder by Iran) to make a stand...
6
@Soothsayer you mismatch the Saudi Regime with Iran. almost all Islamic terrorism in the west is Sunni and often supported by the Saudi.
Iran has more than enough reasons to be afraid of and distrust the US, which has overthrown its government, worked hard against its revolution, supported Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran, and the boycott. “Bomb bomb Iran” (John McCain) and the Bush Plans to attack Iran after a successful “pacification” of Iraq, is far more of a existential threat, and now Bolton ("let's meet 2019 in Tehran"). US citizens don't realize how much fear and hatred the US sows by it's never ending wars all over the world. #blowback
Iran is surrounded by Pakistan, Russia, Israel, the US on it's bases in Turkey and Arabia, all of them with the bomb. Why shouldn't they try to get nuclear arms to dissuade the US and Israel (and Saudi Arabia) from attacking it?
Israel by the way didn't sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty or the chemical weapons convention (as Iran did).
Iran as "protector state" of the shiite minorities in the arabic world sees it as its duty to protect them where they are oppressed. So it fights against al-qaeda, ISIS in Iraq and Syria and the Saudi war in Yemen.
The nuclear non-proliferation treaty is a very strange concept. There is no right to have nuclear weapons, only the right of the ruthless . The club of nuclear powers tries to stop the rest.
Israel, India, Pakistan, North Korea got the bomb by not following the rules.
2
@Soothsayer
I think you might be talking about Israel, not Iran. We've had 70 years to help the Israelis grasp the principles of democracy, but they seem to be slow learners.
Iran has no other choice than playing Trump's game. A denuclearized Iran was in reach just before Trump came in power. He destroyed the hopes of millions of Iranians. Bringing the world back to the 70's/80's.
H Clinton would have made this world a better world.
11
@exo "H Clinton would have made this world a better world."
Incorrect. H Clinton would have made this world a worse world. We'd have many thousands of troops in Syria right now, for example, and I don't think HRC would have refrained from attacking Iran a couple of weeks ago. Trump may be an orange-haired buffoon, but he's better than HRC would have been.
I do believe HRC was sincere in her opposition to the Vietnam War. But that was 50 years ago. Since then, she's never met a Middle East war she didn't like. When she had the chance to say "no," she backed George W. Bush in his invasion of Iraq. She encouraged Obama to intervene more forcefully in Libya -- how's that working out? She'd have sent US troops into Syria. And she'd do the same in Iran.
In short, if HRC were President, the US would be deeply embroiled in "forever wars" in the Middle East. Maybe we will be with Trump, but we're not at the moment.
3
Does this administration understand that at a bare minimum at least 60 percent of the US will be Iran before trump. That Republicans is where you have brought America hope your happy with your selves.
3
This is all an attempt to end sanctions. The mullahs act like a mafia.
3
@Shamrock
The mullahs are not acting like a mafia; they are likely trying to survive by ending sanctions which would not have been in place if Trump hadn't cancelled the negotiated nuclear deal which Iran was complying with.
Trump owns the latest unrest and potential war.
4
Old Chinese saying: Do not chase a hungry dog into a blind alley - He is liable to bite you hard.
With Iran's oil revenue choked off after Trump renegae on the Obama deal and put sanctions on everyone in their government. They have no choice but to fight back now even at the risk of death. I wonder if Bolton really think they will submit to US pressure and give up their sovereignty? (Kim already told Trump many times he will never submit, and will gladly nuke Quam and Tokyo before he gets on his knees).
We shall see what happens soon. Most likely, another costly mid-east war - before they kick Trump' s boots !
4
I wonder what will happen when Iran seizes a Chinese oil tanker. That will be an interesting situation.
1
Is this a NATO Article 5 issue ?
1
Looks like the Iranians have much more credibility in this forum than "the boy who cried fake news". I wonder why?
4
TRUMP STARTED THIS - with no plan, as usual. Remember that we still have no agreement with China or Mexico, NK is going to start testing nukes again, children are still be tortured at our border and TRUMP IS PLAYING GOLF IN NEW JERSEY.
This moron has lighted existential fires everywhere, abrogated our hard-won international agreements and threatens, insulted our former allies, is in love with Kim, Xi and Putin and IS A RACIST.
YOU voted for him. He was never even able to manage his own businesses (note the biggest bankruptcy in American history), lies about everything, has defied the rule of law and has empathy for NO ONE. How can YOU be that negligent with your unearned freedoms (at least the vast majority of YOU who have never served your country). Evangelicals now define hypocrisy and defy all decent religious principles and the exRepublican Party has become a breeding ground for hatred and criminals. Nice legacy. Explain THAT to your children - they're much smarter than YOU are.
18
@RealTRUTH. Very good! People are self-centered, obviously Individualism is the law of the land for many Americans. This unhinged narcissist open the gate and now they are exposed. His lies has no implication, they only want to know if the economy is doing well, the rest is rest. Very sad!!
1
Iran has now released a video which it says proves their drone was not in fact shot down. CNN just ran a segment discussing yesterday’s events in the Gulf, but without mentioning the video. I wonder if the Times will notice it. Of course it’s hard for a layman to judge the evidentiary value of such a video, but it’s noteworthy that the US has not chosen to release their own video, which surely they must have. And note that the Pentagon statement simply does not say that the drone was shot down. It says “defensive action was taken”. The Pentagon statement doesn’t even mention Iran.
Unnamed sources have said that electronic jamming was used against the drone. Apparently the USS Boxer was just fitted with some new jamming technology. Perhaps they wanted to give it a whirl.
Jamming may impede the drone but not disable or bring it down. My take on this is that Iran is telling the truth, Bolton is the liar, the Pentagon is a silent accomplice, and Trump as usual is easily manipulated. Unfair to call a Trump a liar in this instance. A moron and a willing dupe, sure.
3
Iran plays with fire...not smart
5
@brian lindberg
So does Trump. He started this fire.
2
@brian lindberg
The Israelis try to get the US into another invasion, this time against Iran.
Iran would be our great allies now if the JCPOA were in effect.
2
One of the reasons why Iran has incentive to keep this conflict just shy of actually boiling over is that every such news item increases the price of oil, and that benefits Iran, despite the lower amounts it is able to export. One way for the other Gulf states to remove this incentive would be to temporarily increase their oil production every time Iran launches such provocative actions. This way, any provocation by Iran would actually decrease the price of oil (and Iran's oil revenue), removing at least this incentive.
3
Why do we have to believe Trump? Everything that comes out of his mouth are blatant lies. Why the West doesn't believe lran or that region countries? I still recall Saddam Hussein saying to the world he did not have weapons of mass destruction and look what happened. Reagan made a pact with the Ayatollah Khomeini and Carter lost. It would not surprise me if the new lran leaders might make a pact with Trump in order to lift up sanctions (infuriating lsrael and Saudi Arabia, who are already in his pocket, just read The New Yorker June 18, 2018 issue)), a bold action by the opportunistic 45th. He already made friends with North Korea (without lifting sanctions.) The art of the deal at work.
2
Don't worry, Trump will punt this to Congress to decide how to go forward so the country is united and one party is not to blame.
Be grateful you live under leadership in which your primary domestic concern is the way-of-life and welfare of Central Americans who flood the country's Southern Border illegally and as "migrants."
Make sure we count whatever costs incurred in this unfolding crisis as a subsidy for oil.
Solar and wind don't require warships patrolling in far away waters.
10
I’m an ardent Democrat. But, I wonder how many more tankers Iran will have to seize and how much uranium it will have to enrich before US and European politicians and commentators stop critiquing the Trump administration for its mistakes and start addressing Iran’s new aggressions. Trump committed a diplomatic catastrophe and created a new problem in the Middle East, but instead of focusing on the new problem, we are focusing on the initial catastrophe. It’s satisfying to relish in his mistakes, but let’s not forget that Iran wants “Death to America”.
4
Lets start with why exactly did the UK seized an Iranian oil tanker in international water in Gilbratar straight, then eventually come to this question. Selective escalation I see.
8
@John
I too am an ardent Democrat, but I think we have to excise malign Israeli influences throughout our government, and only then can we try to fix the damages Trump has done to all Americans.
2
I thought the US was patrolling the Straits. How did they let this incident take place? We could have sent armed drones from one of the patrol ships, and disabled the fast boats. I have seen the video's of a drone shooting the engine of a fast moving boat and shutting it down. What gives?
1
Iran’s economy is in shambles. Its middle class is under siege. In a time honored ploy, the leaders seek conflict with the USA or the U.K. or really any nation to unify Iranians and distract them from economic collapse. Rather than play into that plan, perhaps the UK should shrug and go to some international body and seek the release of the crew and the ship.
1
I'm desperately afraid of this escalating to war. Does anyone even want a war? Would a war do anyone any good? It won't do any good for the people who will die. It won't do any good for their families. Kyrie eleison.
4
So much for the mighty 5th Fleet. It looks like they've been foiled by a few speedboats. Of course the Admirals will claim they need several hundred more billions to handle the situation.
4
@Epicurus let the Brits take care of it. We aren't the world's policeman anymore, remember?
@Epicurus
Mate. No matter how much America spends on weapons, yours is still the most inept fighting force on the planet. You seem to think that pitching up at a paintball game with a canon would be a winner
So the world holds its breath while we wait and see what the powers that be will do over the seizure of an oil tanker...
... when we could have transitioned to primarily renewable energy sources and had to worry far less about the politics and idiosyncrasies of the Middle "Liquid Dino" East. Clean energy isn't just good for the environment; it's a national security blanket that makes us less reliant on volatile regions. Oil would still matter, obviously, but much less that it currently does.
And if you disagree that this is about oil, consider: we aren't worried about going to war with African nations over piracy, now are we?
7
@htg I agree, we need to start building a whole lot more nuclear plants, asap. By far the most efficient and reliable form of energy. If it's good enough for the French... .
What it really comes down to is which liar are we to believe? And, from that point on, it only gets worse. Rather than supporting Trump or the Iranians, , I intend to be politically bone-spurred for this confrontation.
mario
3
Leaving aside Trump’s credibility, have none of the commenters here been reading the news? Because the Iranians have threatened British oil tankers several times recently and been driven off by warships. The drone thing is a sideshow, they’ve been trying to take oil tankers hostage for weeks.
5
@Gus
Have you read the news. Erik Prince, Kushner and MBS are thick as thieves - and Saudi Arabia is just across the strait from Iran.
Things are not always as they seem
The size of tankers is measured by confusing figures. This one is ~30,000 tons measured by volume, its "gross" tonnage. It can carry ~50,000 tons of oil or other petrochemicals, its "deadweight" measure. These numbers are confusing if used interchangeably.
Either way, it is a medium sized tanker that can transit the Suez Canal and use normal ports, rather than going the long way around Africa and going to only a limited number of specialized super tanker ports.
This is a new (2018) and quite remarkable design. It has only 23 crew on this voyage. It has a significant number of energy saving features, to recover heat normally wasted, to recover energy from the torque in the water behind the propeller, and even streamlining of the upper hull to reduce air resistance. It is a new peak of European ship design, with interesting new ideas.
The British have been doing defensive routing of their ships, leaving the standard shipping lanes to keep more clear of the Iranians. That may be connected to the Iranian claim that the ship was not following usual rules for its route. It wasn't. It was meant to be defensive. It appears that didn't work out so well.
Gibraltar has been talking about releasing the Iranian tanker. That would probably solve this problem too. That would be better than killing people.
8
Why a British tanker? Are they trying to take advantage of the political turmoil in Britain?
@Florence Because UK is holding an Iranian tanker at Gibraltar. Three weeks ago.
6
If - IF- the Iranians actually seized a British tanker, it seems obvious that it's due to Britain's seizing of an Iranian tanker. Frankly, I'm not interested in starting another pointless, worthless, endless quagmire in the Middle East over a boat full of oil. Not our problem.
9
@Dominic They already have taken over an Iranian tanker at Gibraltar. This is Iran’s response after three weeks.
3
Is anyone else getting tired of all this winning? The real world is different than the real-estate world of Trump in NYC, but the Prevaricator-in-Chief has not understood that yet … and never will. Trump seems to feel that if he, like Dubya, has a war going when his re-election is due, the American voting public will vote not to change horses in mid-stream, thus prolonging his Attorney General decided immunity from prosecution until the Statute of Limitations gives him cover in 2024.
3
The Trump administration can put sanction on any/every nation, it can abruptly impose tariffs on any country, it can bomb any sovereign nation, it can bully/insult anyone...and pretend its the rule of law. So other nations can do the same.
1
People complaining that we should trust our government about this have never read or heard of the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".
Maybe Iran is hostile right now... we'll never really know for sure based on this administration's telling... and in war, don't we want to be sure?
“Britain and Iran have been embroiled in a dispute for the past few weeks over Britain’s seizure of an Iranian tanker near Gibraltar. Iran had vowed to retaliate.”
Let calmer heads prevail. This is only tit for tat. Iran is looking for an excuse to go to war. Sanctions have probably driven the populace mad. A small spark will ignite this situation much to the dismay of the American people.
A small spark like Trumps mouth.
Hey Donald ‘Duck’ Trump, before you get carried away, let the British speak first. Then you can insert your foot.
Both parties: calm down, exchange tankers, go back home
7
There are war-mongers on both sides now, and I don't see this ending well. Perhaps Americans will pay attention when gas spikes to $5 a gallon? Even if our fracking gives us a temporary respite (it's a short-term solution to resource depletion) oil is a global market.
If the Gulf closes or a wider Middle Eastern war erupts, look for the economic crash me and many other Peak Oil folk have long predicted: modern civilization is a precarious thing, folks. The world IS flat.
$5/gallon gas would thrill the domestic energy industry, including both shale and refining interest. The USA is the largest energy producer (and consumer) in the world.
@Andy we will blow through what President Obama called a 100 year supply in a decade. Fracked Wells deplete as much as 80% after the first year.
The easy oil is going fast, so we need to either get on to renewables or plan to fight a bunch of wars.
I would like to know how many working class and military families will be chanting "Send Them Back...Send Them Back!" at Trump's rallies when it comes to their loved ones being sent off to fight another dubious war in the Middle East?
328
@Mulholland Drive I am a member of a military family. I served in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and my oldest son is currently a soldier. I see these issues as completely unrelated. Trump can be--and is--grossly wrong for calling on legal immigrants (or their children) to go back to their country of origin, but that says nothing about what the best foreign policy is vis a vis Iran. As for whether I would object to "sending them back," I would probably not object. The problem with Iraq was not the invasion (which made the US, the world, and Iraq a better place). The Iraq War was not executed well immediately after the initial invasion, but like Lincoln with Grant, President Bush eventually found his general in the person of David Petraeus. As late as 2011, President Obama was trying to take credit for the success in Iraq, but then for political reasons Obama withdrew all of our troops prematurely, and disaster ensued. Even today, however, because the US has reinserted itself into the region, Iraq has re-stabilized, and it is arguably the only functioning democratic republic in the Arab world and it also has a a better human rights record than most countries in the region. But I digress, your core delusion is to believe that the wars in the Middle East have been unpopular with the military. Military families have always expressed much higher support for these wars than the general public. We have no problem with be sent "over there."
4
@Mulholland Drive
The masses are easily duped. Just watch and see how it plays out.
24
@Mulholland Drive Excellent point. I think they'll still be chanting "Send them back!" but with a different contextual meaning.
8
It seems Iran wants a war desperately, these idiots never learn anything, at least they should look at Iraq and learn a lesson.
10
@VEE
This tit for tat prelude to war is a direct result of Obama having a bigger inauguration turnout than Trump leaving him with "no choice" but to cancel the Iran agreement. /s
5
@VEE
A war with who?
The USA? Because Irak cost so much to the US, it cannot afford another war. And the Iranians are much tougher today than Irak in 2003.
Afghanistan is a quagmire and the US will never be able to get out of there. The longest war.
Overconfidence cost a lot in the past and will cost more in the future...
3
@VEE
The irony is I legitimately do not know which idiots you refer to.
3
If history has shown one thing, its that you cannot go halfway around the world and expect to win a war, no matter the shock and awe. Let's build bridges, infrastructure and invest in alternative energy at home. Too naive? Think, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
531
@ad
But, we won in Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua. That's why we have all of these asylees fleeing the violence, poverty, and corruption in those countries. So much winning!
58
World War II certainly happened
12
Win what? What is the point? What do they have that we want that is apparently worthy of killing millions of civilians and destroying an entire nation?
29
So many people commenting don’t believe POTUS yet believe the Iranians. At least we all gave Bush the benefit of the doubt with yellow cake. DJT has really eroded the trust of the people.
10
@Covfefe I hate Trump--despise him, really. But he has the most to lose in an Iran War. Bolton and his ilk, or simply events in the Straits of Hormuz, may spin beyond the control of anyone, particularly the dunce in the Oval Office.
3
@Covfefe
Most don't have a particular reason to believe Iran, but they definitely have reason to believe Trump is lying. In a binary choice between the two, Iran wins.
6
War, once born, has a life of its own. Nuclear war would be worse, and that's why nuclear weapons have to be limited... in first instance, to the UNSC Permanent Members. Not fair, but better than nuclear war.
5
Who can you believe when all sides would deny and lie to save face and protect their own interests? This is how wars start.
14
@Rodrian Roadeye
Trumpian trope. There are NOT "good people on both sides". There ARE bad people, on the right that massively outnumber Democrats.
3
And so it Begins. The Iranians made a fatal mistake by seizing a European ship. Now the coalition building has started. The aerial bombardment will soon commence. American troops are staging in Saudi Arabia outside of Iranian missile capabilities.
The U.S.-led coalition sent 177,194 troops into Iraq during the initial invasion phase, which lasted from 19 March to 1 May 2003. About 130,000 arrived from the U.S. alone, with about 45,000 British soldiers, 2,000 Australian soldiers, and 194 Polish soldiers. The 2003 invasion of Iraq was the first stage of the Iraq War. The invasion phase began on 19 March 2003 and lasted just over one month,[24] including 21 days of major combat operations, in which a combined force of troops from the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and Poland invaded Iraq. This early stage of the war formally ended on 1 May 2003. MOPs and MOABs will soon be raining down on Islamic republic soil.
2
@Illuminator
Iran seized a British ship; the British previously seized an Iranian ship. Trump "supposedly" (he's lies too much to be sure) shot down an Iranian drone; the Iranians previously shot down a US drone.
Too bad diplomacy has died.
8
@Illuminator
...and Raytheon, Halliburton, United Technologies's stockholders (read Cheney and the other merchants of death and warmongers) will be making BILLIONS that should be being spent to feed OUR children, repairer roads, support our already-disabled GIs and PAY DOWN UNTENABLE NATIONAL DEBT.
Mnuchin will just print more money - until our entire economy collapses. YOUR illegitimate president; not mine.
15
@Illuminator
Speaking as a Britisher, the Iraq War was an unmitigated disaster for the UK, and widely regarded as a pointless kow-towing to the US by the Blair government. The Army was unprepared and soldiers were killed because of it, the legal pretext was demolished by the Chilcot Inquiry, the nuclear weapons didn't exist, and the British public was furious at the government. Both of the two contenders for PM have publicly stated they have no interest in war.
Additionally, Iran has been preparing for an asymmetric war with the US since the invasion of Iraq. They are a bigger, more prepared country, with mountainous terrain and a population who are proudly nationalistic and likely to fiercely resist any ground invasion. It would be a massive war and cost hundreds of thousands of American and Iranian lives.
346
Given the escalation between GB and Iran, why wouldn't GB be escorting flagged ships thru Hormuz with British navy? Are they encouraging Iran to cross a line? Looks like Iran took the bait. Now what?
1
@Dick
Sounds a lot like when we baited Saddam to attack Kuwait in order to justify our attacking them and seizing their oil for ourselves - CHENEY!
Trump has baited Iran the same way and made it a cause celebre to use Israel as an American proxy to start a war to distract from his massive crimes at home and feed red meat to his base and blood and guts from our troops.
Nothing good will com from this and it could easily;y have ben avoided if we had an intelligent human in the WH and serious diplomats in State. It's TRUMP the Destroyer.
I am so glad we've escalated tensions with the Iranians. What could possibly go wrong?
Remind me--if we're energy-independent, what do we care about Middle Eastern oil? Oh that's right--it's all about profits...
23
@Mike James is that the same nuclear program we had an agreement about before the dotard ripped it up? And exactly how are we in a better position now?
4
@BoulderEagle. How can you possibly think we need Iranian oil? Do you know what an embargo is? And exactly how did WE escalate?
1
@Jackson Where did I say we need Iranian oil? In fact, I said the opposite. As to how we escalated, are you aware we had a deal with them to limit their nuclear development but Trump ripped it up? Despite our allies' objections? How do you think this escalation got started?
who to believe - our Supreme Ruler or theirs?
This game of chicken (whether it's in reality or fake news to gun up for a war) has to stop. Too many children and liars are in charge on both sides.
16
For those that are quick to believe Iran (just so they might voice frustration with the Trump administration), we must not forget Iran's record of lying to the world including its initial, secretive plan to construct a nuclear bomb.
Perhaps the most egregious of these lies being the distribution of plastic "keys to heaven" to young children who were sent to the front lines of their 1980 war with Iraq. Additionally, many high standing members of the Iranian government over the past decade have overtly denied the Holocaust.
It is right to question with a healthy skepticism, but let us not abandon US intelligence to believe an Iranian government that certainly does not have a clean track record.
17
Problem isn't US intelligence. It's the politicians who use it selectively. A lot happens in secret, so it's simpler and more reliable to judge a situation by the people involved.
3
@Jimmy
Yup, Iran is a very bad actor on the world stage. But how can one believe Trump, a man who would lie about what he had for breakfast, about anything? It truly is a tragedy, but at this point in time I do believe virtually anyone else on earth over my president.
4
@Jimmy Is there anyone, Iran included, who lies as much as our current government? I mean, sorry, but I'd believe literally anyone before I'd believe the Trump administration.
Thankfully the Brits are involved, so at least there's one adult in the room.
5
This is on Trump. He has no idea what he is doing. This could turn in a war. God save America.
13
@sbobolia. Were you able to read the words “British tanker”? Or the article?
3
@sbobolia
...at least the NEVER TRUMPERS. The rest of the population backs this sociopath and sincerely deserves what they get as a result. Nothing else seems to convince them. Hannity, Ingraham, Conway, Barr, McConnell and Carlson too.
2
Wagging the dog...
7
Falkland Islands provides British resolution for this current Iranian assault.
Trump lies whenever he opens his mouth. Iran is not exactly trustworthy either, but the difference is that Iran's leaders actually have Iran's interest in mind. Trump only has Trump's interests in mind.
To the extent that Iran doesn't seem to care about Trump's statement, it's likely that Trump's statement is some kind of news deflection over "send her back" chanting.
8
Bolton must be wearing a huge smile.
10
@Swamp Fox
He's the NEW CHENEY. Don't forget about Miller too!
1
Start arming merchant ship and start sinking Iranian small craft. alternatively, send merchant ships in convoys escortred by warships and or aircraft. Any Iranan boats come near a convoy should be sunk. Time to stop playing cat and mouse.
18
@Roger Werner Do you realize the costs of such maritime diplomacy? It would all be passed on to consumers, not that oil producers would mind.
3
@Roger Werner when Britain seizes an iranian tanker [near Gibraltar] Iran has every right to retaliate!!
7
@Roger Werner do you hold defense industry company shares?
5
How will the Trump haters spin this and blame it on Trump?
9
@James
I'm not blaming it on anyone. Our bad relations with Iran go back a lot further than just this century. But Trump did purposely escalate things with that country to help his election. Besides, I don't believe Trump nor the Iranians. They all lie incessantly.
9
@James tRump has created the environment where Britain seized an iranian tanker; iran has every right to retaliate.
4
@James Trump slashed the state department (who work for diplomacy), alienated Mattis (who prefers diplomacy), and has been inflaming tensions with Iran. Escalation is what happens on both sides. This is not spin, this is a natural consequence of failure of diplomacy.
12
All of this is Trump's doing. Trump made tearing up the agreement one of his campaign promises to gin up the Obama haters to vote for him. Trump tore up the agreement for that reason alone, ignoring our allies and his own military brass to stay in the deal. Trump could have at least acted like a leader and a statesman to renegotiate the deal if need be, offered other incentives, work with the Iranians, let the people there know America is not the "evil empire." But alas, Trump chose to behave like the spoiled brat and bully that he is, with absolutely no clue about foreign policy. IF war breaks out and more Americans and innocent Iranian citizens die, and he pillages our treasure to pay for it... it is all Trump's doing, along with Bolton and the rest of the GOP cohorts. The Iranians may not have nuclear weapons to deliver a payload, but they do have nuclear material! Why in God's name did anyone let Trump get away with tearing up that agreement.
44
@sunburst68 " Why in God's name did anyone let Trump get away with tearing up that agreement."
Did it ever occur to you that neither Obama or Congress signed the agreement?
3
@sunburst68
Trump can’t act like a leader as that’s way beyond his limited capabilities as a con man and charlatan.
5
Trump learned that the North Koreans have sold several atomic bombs to Iran. That is why Iran recently claimed that it could reduce Israel to dust in a half hour.
1
Hey, Iran: Send it back! Send it back!
5
The real crime, even if Iran was flying a drone close to our ships and we did shoot it down, is that we have a serial liar as President, a 5 star fact fabricator, so the public at large has little confidence in anything he says - even if it's the rare occasion where he engages in full disclosure and the truth. Most professionals would call this a complete failure of leadership. His base's response to his questionable leadership comes across as, "Lock her up", or "Make them leave", or some such insipid platitude or non sequitur. Regardless of what happened, Trump's void of diplomatic capability will ultimately be the cause for any ensuing crisis.
25
@Publius I'm waiting for someone from the pentagon to get up and report on this. Guessing I'll wait forever.
@Publius: Either you did not read the article, or you have left us with a perfect non sequitur. Go figure.
1
So Iran seized a British oil tanker.
Did the UK forget they attempted to seize the Iranian oil fields after then-Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh nationalized them? And then, with assistance of the United States CIA, the UK MI6 engineered 1953 Iranian coup d'état, overthrowing the democratically elected, secular, western-leaning Mosaddegh, installing the puppet Shah Pahlavi and his notorious SAVAK secret police?
The UK and USA are directly responsible for the mess Iran and we find ourselves in.
61
@Gary Kinslow "overthrowing the democratically elected"? Um, no.
@Gary Kinslow
You are correct in the history. Past mistake do not give Iran a free pass today.
3
@DMA Check your history.
3
Tell you what, I’ll go fight Iran... but only if Jared Kusher and the Trump sons are put on the front line first.
20
@Austin Ouellette
No reason not to include Ivanka on the front line as well.
8
@Austin Ouellette "
With apologies to South Park: "Operation Get Behind the Trumpsters"?
@Austin Ouellette they will be on the front lines ... selling arms
1
Very clever of Trump to coerce Great Britain to have a skirmish with Iran. Anything to deflect attention from racism, Epstein, Michael Cohen, and the plethora of egregious, felonious acts committed almost daily by this lawless administration.
33
@H. Clark yes - following the recent expulsion of the UK ambassador to the US, Britain sure owes us a favor, right?
Chump.
1
Re tanker seizure: Iran's was a reaction to an (unprovoked) action. Advantage: Iran.
Re drone: this is fishy. Something almost a km away was 'shot down'. Then 'jammed' and later again 'destroyed'. So where is it now? The Iranians claim all their UAV's returned; could it be that the jamming wasn't successful and the Iranians managed to regain control and scooped it back?
They published a video of the US ships, including the Boxer, allegedly shot by the very drone allegedly made kaputt.
This silly game of chicken must stop before somebody really gets hurt.
7
No lies or bluster will rescue an incompetent, unrepresentative leadership from this burgeoning foreign policy disaster.
Iran or Trump?
Both are guilty, dangerous fools. Americans chose our President and confirmed his foreign policy advisors. We, the people of the United States of America, are accountable.
5
@SunnyG meantime, what will Putin, XI and Kim do about this? I suspect they'll laugh...
2
Why? Doesn’t Iran have like a gazillion barrels of oil they can just pump up?
This drone provocation was obviously engineered by the Iranian extremists led by the ' Supreme Leader' , Khamenei aimed at sabotaging the possibility of beginning of any talks between Javad Zarif and Americans.
In order to avoid sharing the fate of Moussavi and Karroubi … and of thousands of political prisoners in Iran … Mr. Zarif. of course, had to repeat the 'denial report' issued by Tehran.
Bad move by Iran. They already have Europe on their side because Trump cancelled the agreement and EU opposed the cancellation.
However, this provocative move by Iran is going to send EU into the arms of Trump and US.
7
@Practical Thoughts Not hardly. The EU is too smart to let something like this drive it into Iran's arms. They have too much pride to embrace Trump. They can tell a hawk from a handsaw no matter which way the wind is blowing.
1
@graygrandma They can tell a hawk from a handsaw no matter which way the wind is blowing.
Just like Georgie Bush Jr. suckered them into Iraq??
From the article:
>>> "The possible seizure of the ship, the Stena Impero, in the Strait of Hormuz, was the latest in three months of escalating tensions between Iran and the West."
Not quite right. Let's make that more accurate:
". . . the latest in three months of escalating tensions between Iran and The United States and it special lapdog, the United Kingdom."
The rest of "the West" has been working desperately to defuse the tensions created by unprovoked American aggression in the wake of the Trump Administration's unilateral withdrawal from the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action.
14
@Douglas This is a brazen and audacious move by Iran, whose only game is to provoke. Don’t rely on the difference between the US-UK and ‘the rest of the west’ - a distinction that we make, but which the Iranians, when push comes to shove, won’t.
1
>>> "This is a brazen and audacious move by Iran, whose only game is to provoke."
Nonsense. It is our government, along with the Brits, who have been doing the provocation.
Don't you remember which government *first* seized a tanker?
2
The answer to this particular Iranian provocation is simple: For the US and Royal Navies to escort vessels through the strait and adjoining waters
1
There was a time where I'd assume our President was telling the truth. With the constant lies and spin coming from the White House, it's difficult to differentiate truth from lies, reality from fantasy. Four years of this will have negative outcomes for decades to come.
15
Brinkmanship is a scary game no matter when, where or by whom it is played. But with tensions so high right now, for this to happen where it did, matters could get out of control very fast. Trump and the Iranians need to dial this thing down a little.
This is a completely natural and expected consequence of blowing up the Iran deal. Once again, the Obama administration did something far reaching and made a concrete step towards global peace, and the Trump administration has done its best to unravel it.
Being anti-war doesn't just mean having an instinct not to get involved in conflict (which admittedly, Trump does possess), but also to have some degree of vision to look ahead and think about how to avoid conflict a few feet down the road (this sadly, is where Trump is hopelessly incompetent).
I'm rooting for Iran here. I understand why they've taken this vessel hostage. I hope we buckle, and give in, and get back into the nuclear deal.
7
@Dhanushdhaari If you were living anywhere in most of the Middle East you wouldn’t be ‘rooting for Iran’ - you would be living in fear of nuclear conflict. How wonderful to be able to sun one’s self in LA and glibly speak about rolling the dice for millions of innocents living in the thick of it in the real world. This is a serious development - not a ball game.
1
@Sara Nerberg
The point of the deal was to avoid nuclear conflict. So yes, I would be rooting for Iran if I lived in the Middle East, because a reinstatement of the deal would prevent nuclear conflict.
1
@Dhanushdhaari Many of us here in the west believe that that was the point of the deal. Look into Iranian thought and historical machinations regarding such ‘deals’ - and it is clear that the objective on the other side is very different. If the deal itself wasn’t as full of holes as a Swiss cheese things might have turned out better. As things stands, it it is (was) nothing but an exercise of obfuscation and deceit. The fact that we in the west are generally too uninformed and naive to accept these realities is the most dangerous weapon the Iranians and others have.
We should be able to believe what the President of the United States and his administration tell us about situations such as this. We should be able to rely on them to keep us informed. The fact that everyone is already assuming that Trump is lying about the drone — and taking Iran’s word (!) that it didn’t happen — speaks volumes about his (non)credibility and should give us all pause about giving him another term, especially during these increasingly dangerous times.
I sincerely hope the British can get this tanker and its crew released quickly and safely — and that Trump stays out of it and doesn’t make an already bad situation worse.
2
The scariest thing about this is that we are now doubting (with good reason) our own president in favor of Iran. The truth is the biggest casualty of the 2016 election.
14
@Amelia
No, only the liberals are.
3
Unlike the United States, the UK has diplomatic relations with Iran. They may be on rocky ground, and Iran tends to believe that the UK is even more nefarious than the United States, but at least the possibility of working this out exists.
The United States should not meddle in this process. I know Bolton and Pompeo will start screaming about this, but it will be a mistake. It will play right into the hands of Iran's hard-liners and reinforce the already firm conviction on the part of the Iranians that they United States is trying to overthrow the Iranian government.
Bottom line, America. STAY OUT OF THIS!
11
Trump is now the official boy who cried wolf. He has lied so many times that even if he is now telling the truth, it's impossible to believe him. Donald Trump and The Truth are a contradiction in terms.
7
Trump started a war with Iran by pulling out of the deal they were obeying and blockading them because he doesn't like Obama. The EUwent along. Can't blame them for fighting back.
8
What do you expect? The British seized an Iranian tanker. What goes around comes around.
8
If we go to war, can we at least go total war pretty please. Make it a genetic and economic adventure that involves mass slaughter, rape, and pillage like the good old days.
Let us remember the wisdom of our ancestors and only fight wars with the intention of making a profit.
1
All of this is heading in a very bad direction.
3
The only reason we believe foreigners is that everything we hear from this administration has been a lie, and everything we've heard from foreigners has been true.
Trump routinely meets with Russians and we only hear about it from the Russians.
1
Is the idea to drag a US and NATO ally into the fray, like 2003? Different president*, different lapdog, but same ally.
When are we going to just bomb this country into a parking lot already? There is such a thing as too much patience. The Iranian people are never going to rise up and overtake the theocratic order in order to implement republicanism. So nothing worthy will be lost if they are leveled.
1
Even if the Iranians *did* take the tanker - who's to blame? A country that seeks to govern itself on it's own terms, or a cabal of western corporate interests who very badly want their state-owned oil reserves? This is why they ousted all westerners in the 70s, and this is why the west has villainized the IRGC. We're sticking out hand in a wasps nest the size of, well, the Timurid Empire.
We've always been at war with EastAsia.
3
UK first seized an Iranian tanker. this is a payback.
7
The gov isn't usually shy about showing photographic evidence (remember those WMD canisters?) Can't wait to see photos of the "Made in Iran" sticker on the downed drone.
3
I thought the British navy was protecting UK flagged ships. Apparently not.
1
Till now, all that was missing was a slogan...
"Remember the Stena"
PS
"Stena Impero" and "Maine Poster" are anagrams...
Why didn't we hear about it when the Brits seized an Iranian ship? One-sided pro-Western reporting here.
4
@dr. c.c. That was reported along with photos
2
@dr. c.c. actually the ny times did multiple stories on that its not their fault you pick and choose what you read
@Daniel Grasso it wasn't in my digital edition. please provide a link.
Evidence of trump foreign policy at work.
1
Until this administration, it would never have occurred to me that it might me our side that is lying.
1
@Don Feferman
Were you paying attention in 2003? There were plenty of lies passed around in the leadup to the Iraq War.
2
It cuts both ways. The Brits, in playing lackey to the U.S., bit off more than they could chew by seizing an Iranian tanker in Spanish waters.
This is just the beginning, and I say this with some measure of pride: Barring a nuclear holocaust, the U.S., Israel and Saudi Arabia are no match for Iranian missiles. That's why they spent 40 desperate years developing them, to ensure there would be no repeat of the U.S.-backed Iraqi invasion of Iran that left one million Iranians killed and even gassed with U.S.- and German-supplied strains of anthrax.
Iran has attacked no other nation in over 200 years. The U.S. has decimated 5 nations this century alone. I'm rooting for my countrymen. Any attack on Iran will cause numerous Israeli, Saudi and American fatalities. Unlike Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen, Iran is prepared .... even for a false flag operation.
Let's lift the sanctions and get round the negotiating table.
3
@Hamid Varzi My friend look up MOP Massive Ordnance penetrator also look up Massive Ordnance Air Blast aka the Mother Of All Bombs. We dropped one on isis it was quite the show go on YouTube.
@Illuminator
It wasn't U.S. bombs but Iranian and Kurdish ground troops, backed by Russian air power, that defeated ISIS. The U.S. has never won any war from the air. Have you never wondered why your troops are still in Afghanistan after 17 years?
So please, enough of ordnance penetrators and jumbo bombs. They never achieved anything other than feed YouTube addiction.
Obviously the West cannot afford to escort tankers with warships. Iran has the advantage because it can deploy cheap fast boats to threaten ships. I would have thought the first thing to do is to place a defence team on each ship equipped with a Javelin system and medium machine gun plus assault rifles.
@Laughingdog
The U.S. fleet began adding Army-style missiles to its own helicopters. And in 2012, the sailing branch went a step further when it finally fielded a custom-made guided rocket of its own that is specifically optimized for defeating swarms of boats. The Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System is a 2.75-inch-diameter rocket with a laser seeker.
Navy and Marine Corps helicopters, as well as other aircraft, can carry pods, with each containing up to seven of the rockets. The copter shines a laser on enemy boats, or other targets, then fires. Each APKWS rocket heads for a different boat, in essence swarming the swarm with tiny lethal munitions.
The guided-rocket system has a 95-percent hit rate, according to the military. "This will give the helicopters a potent capability against swarming fast inshore attack craft," noted Jane's, a defense trade publication.
And that's not all. In 2014, the U.S. Navy fitted a new, large laser gun to the amphibious ship USS Ponce, which is permanently stationed in the Persian Gulf, where it acts as an at-sea base for helicopters, small boats and special operations forces.
The so-called Laser Weapon System , aimed by an operator holding a video-game-style controller, shoots a 30-kilowatt laser over a distance of several miles. As LaWS doesn't fire conventional missiles or bullets, instead drawing power from a generator, it essentially never runs out of ammunition. Perfect for wiping out a swarm.
Something or someone hs emboldened the Iranians. Could it be Donald Trump?
1
Iran wants a fight with the USA and Britain??
They won’t last 5 days.
Put their mullahs out of their misery.
4
@Dr. John yeah sure that’s why war mongers in trump administration backed off last minute!
2
@Dr. JoIraq w
never will we learn. Iraq was supposed to be a " five day war" war also.
1
And down the slippery slope to war we go, led through this crisis of his own making by an incompetent conman with zero credibility. Brace yourself, America
3
Let's have a war. My poll numbers are low, I'm not even getting the attention I deserve for dissing Democratic congresswomen. My portfolio needs a boost. I say go for it. Let the idiots wave their flags for another unnecessary foreign entanglement. Works every time.
5
Time to take out the iranian boats
If they were destroyed the Iranians would deny it no loss
1
What happened to the almighty U.S. Navy?
Donnie loses to Iran....again.
1
Sorry, Donald. I can't ever trust a president who hangs a picture of the brutal dictator Kim Jong Un, a man who starves and makes slaves out of his own people, in the White House right next to the Queen of England.
And, besides, you're a liar and we all know that. Everyone in the entire universe knows that.
No one can trust a liar. End of story.
3
We shouldn't have to get involved, Trump was emphatic that NATO was not paying their fair share for the Alliance, and further was just about obsolete. So Britain as a member is on their own. Right?
4
hmmm.. to believe trump, who has lied daily for years, or Iran. Who has something to gain? well, trump wants to look like a strong arm president while Iran could garner empathy by saying the US attacked them.. yep.. I believe iran.
100
@melan1e - I guess you dont believe the British either.
5
@melan1e choosing the enemy over your own country is generally considered treason (were you in any sensitive or important position, which of course you are not). You will doubtless be hurt and confused when Trump wins re-election in a blowout but it is snarky clueless comments like yours that horrify the swing state voters that will decide the election.
1
@Richard Since when is our "enemy"?
Let's see, who to believe. Seems I remember something about WMD that got us into the last war which has been going on for almost 20 years.
I'll take the Iranian's word over the Liar in Chief's any day.
132
@Troy
Ah, so I'm sure you thought the whole Russia collusion thing, which was catalyzed by elements of the intelligence agency, was completely bogus, yeah?
1
If this Trumpian WH said it was dark outside, I'd look out the window, just to make sure.
70
I’m going to have to go with Iran on this one. Everyone knows our president is a liar.
69
@miller And the Iranian leadership is so trustworthy?
Who are you going to believe, Iran or a liar?
24
@John
I don't believe Liar 1 in the DC or Liar 2 in Tehran. Can't believe anything that comes out of either place.
2
Trump earned a trillion "pants on fire" Oscar's and now he owns another. Iran outfoxes Trump daily and puts the US Navy at risk. The US Navy is not trained for this type of work and likely shot up a CIA drone. There must be a million drones flying that belongs to 100 different interest or possibly, the Navy shot a Pelican.
21
amazingly with this president hes more likely lying than Iran.
30
The Iranians showed portions of the US drone it shot down. Will the US show portions of the Iranian drone it claims to have shot down? Credibility of US presidency at home and abroad has been severely damaged.
46
Pompeo's false flag. Shot down their own drone. Gulf of Tonkin anyone?
35
You nailed it, Motown.
1
Donald Trump and his administration are inveterate liars.
I believe the Iranian government over anything from Trump or anyone in his administration.
PS I’m an American and I’m not going anywhere. I will work to bring integrity, credibility and democracy back to my country and throw Putin’s puppets out.
92
@David Parsons
That's sorta like Trump believing Putin over our security agencies. For my part, I don't know who to believe anymore.
1
Well, actually it's like this. Seaman Joe, let's call him Joe, bought a cheapish drone to take a selfie of the USS Whatever to send home to his his mom. In the process it went down accidentally. No one had a chance to video it. And Joe ain't saying nothin' to no one. When asked by the captain he replied, "Drone? Drone? What drone?."
More plausible than either of the other two explanations.
20
Pics or it didn’t happen.
46
@bobandholly:
with the level of technological trickery possible nowadays,
i'm far from sure whether i want to trust pictures anymore.
Hmmm...I'm at a genuine loss as to whether to believe the US, or Iran. Wow.
74
@Kathy McAdam Hahn
Go with the Tehran clerics. Their reputation with the people of Iran is goodness, love, and honesty. Might even want to fly their flag in your front yard just to show how much you trust them.
13
@Alice's Restaurant
The sarcasm would be spot on, except for the “ditto” that goes to Donald’s reputation, goodness, love and honesty.
7
@Alice's Restaurant
Why should we believe Trump, someone who lies every day?
4
I would have let the drone hit the ship. What would liberals say? Maybe that Trump was a wimp.
3
@Richard Winchester
what drone?
1
@Richard Winchester
A Liberal Patriot would call it an act of war.
A Conservative Chicken Hawk would send your kids off to fight.
1
Sadly, I believe the Iranian officials, not our President.
76
The Iranian theocratic rulers must save face as the day of economic collapse draws ever closer. Likely the populace will force them to meet with Trump and conclude a much more restrictive agreement that will pass muster with congress.
4
@clarity007
Why would they enter into an agreement with Trump when his word is meaningless?
1
@clarity007 Don't count on it. The Iranians will rally to their government and country just as pre-Trump Americans would have. They are an ancient and proud people.
I have doubts on Donald Trump's honesty every day. Not a single day goes by where he hasn't one up'd himself from the day before. However, I trust the man is not so detached from reality that he would concoct something this out of thin air. He has received a lot of stick of late. I don't think this is his usual lie-and-distract strategy.
1
@John I think you are being naive. Remember the Gulf of Tonkin.
This is welcome news. Of course, it's quite possible that Iran is lying, and that the U.S. did shoot down their drone. But the fact that they're denying it means they're not taking it as an act of war, and no retaliation is forthcoming.
It's also quite possible that Trump is lying, since he lies all the time. I wouldn't expect it as much from the Pentagon, but since Trump is in charge, nothing that any part of the Federal government claims can be taken as solid fact. If evidence is produced that the U.S. shot down an Iranian drone, then I'll believe it, otherwise it's kind of a moot point anyway as Iran is not holding the U.S. liable for it.
I hope that this ratcheting up of hostilities with Iran comes to nothing, as did Trump's warmongering approach to North Korea and Venezuela earlier. It does seem likely that Trump will get distracted by some pointless thing, probably his attacks on American citizens. For certain we cannot afford a war with Iran and would gain nothing from it.
40
In a normal world (one in which the United States had not devolved overnight from leader of the free world to laughing stock and security threat to the entire world) whatever the United States says would be accepted as fact.
But we live in the upside-down world created by Trump, the Republicans, and the masses of dangerously ignorant & deplorable American voters. In this world, it is hard, and getting harder everyday, to distinguish truth from fiction.
Dangerous times indeed.
43
You had me until “deplorable.”
4
@Maine Girl Why?
1
@Big Ron
Why, indeed. Apparently @Maine Girl hasn’t heard the “Send her back” chants at little donnie’s last lovefest.
Iran denies the downed drone claim. We live under an administration that lies 24/7 all year long; every day, every week, every month, every year. It is frightening when a critical mass of the American public is more inclined to believe Iran than its own president.
What happens when the president needs to rally national support in the face of a truly existential crisis? Are citizens who no longer believe a word that he utters the traitors, or is the president himself?
We're less than a centimeter away from accepting Kim Jong-un as more credible than our president. Sleep well!
48
Sad that so many here reflexively go with Iran on this. Trump. That's how you get more Trump.
9
@Wilbur Clark Gulf of Tonkin.
6
Here’s where it helps if your peeps can take your word to the bank.
19
Since most everything this president says turn out to be a lie, my inclination is to believe the Iranians. This doesn't make me an anti American, it simply makes me angry that I can no longer trust anything this administration says.
167
@Marcus Aurelius: Trump has done nothing to dissuade us that he does not deserve our hatred.
He's the worst president we've ever had, each day proves that. A liar, a con, a grifter, a cheat.
Yet you respect him? Pffft.
26
@Marcus Aurelius
I love my country, but yep, I hate the way this President behaves. And he IS a prover unrepentant continual liar.
10
@Marcus Aurelius
You're right. Send your kid to enlist in the Marines this afternoon.
12
I don't know if an Iranian drone was shot down or it wasn't and that is truly frightening. I see a few commentors...only a few... that say they believe Trump. I don't know how they can say that with no proof unless they don't believe any of the reporting on how much he lies. Even Fox's actual reportors acknowledge that he is the biggest liar who has ever been POTUS. Really, unless the only programs you watch are the syncophants, you would at the very least, question thiis report until there is real documentation.
The frightening thing is that needing proof about something that the President says is dangerous. Even Presidents I really didn't care for, ie Reagan, Nixon, Bush, and not really a fan of Clinton,were believable when they said something. If Nixon had said that (magically having drones back then), and I think I hated him, I would believe that was true. Trump has made believing anything he says impossible for me. And if he said that something even worse happened and it actually had, his habit of lying could actually slow down a response, and that could be really dangerous.
Is he the boy who cried wolf? Remember that did not end well for that boy.
15
@riley523: The amazing thing to me is how the pundits and the elites and pols just continue thinking we can have a functioning democracy with a liar for a president.
The one thing we need in a president is the trust that in national security matters he is telling us the truth of the situation.
Nobody can believe a liar. Why is this not the number one impeachable offense? Our national security and safety are completely at risk because of this.
3
@sophia
Perhaps our national security and safety are completely dependent on Presidents (Republican and Democrat) lying to the public and the world at critical times.
To single out President Trump for his well-chronicled mendacity is to ignore one of the essential requirements of the job -- to conceal state secrets, to spin facts and lie for his countrymen when necessary.
@Charles D.: Making up a lie to create tension is not the same as not telling us every national security secret. I get that we don't know a lot of what goes on. But he makes things up to manipulate us. I think there's a difference.
1
Trump being the king of liars, his credibility is not very strong here. The Iranians are right to play that card, whatever happened.
26
If it was shot down, there are pieces. I believe Iran; there are no pieces or Trump would be parading them around.
15
Regardless of conflicting government claims, a Wall Street Journal reporter was on the US ship and says he saw the drone being brought down. Or is that just fake news?
6
Dear Faith,
It sounds reasonable, but there's no way the reporter would have been able to tell if it was an Iranian drone.
5
@faith
The Journal is owned by Rupert Murdoch. So, yes, fake news.
5
@faith WSJ article says their journalist on the Boxer "witnessed close encounters between a group of U S ships and the Iranian military."
1
I'm with the Iranians on this one.
I don't believe anything that Donald says.
25
In the spirit of what goes around, comes around:
Maybe Iran is lying, maybe not. But, either way, Iran's claims put our presidential Liar-in-Chief in the same predicament that he has placed so many other nations and world leaders when he lies, or says one thing one day and the very opposite the next.
Maybe Trump will learn that people need accurate information in order to make wise decisions--or maybe not!
222
@PB Trump is beyond learning and his advisors have given up advising. It's just Trump now, all alone, big-mouth blazing. Good luck everyone.
26
@ PB
"Trump" and "learn" are two words that should not appear in the same sentence.
24
@Rupert:
aren't pompeo, bolton
and number of others
very close behind djt?
If this event did in fact occur I would assume that enough bits of this drone were recovered to ID its owner.
9
@Marcus Aurelius
So, where is it?
2
@Marcus Aurelius
OK. One big bit should be even easier to find although your president did say it was blown to bits and he never makes up stuff, right?
1
@Marcus Aurelius
Ok, thanks for the link, but it actually does not say anything there about what happened to the drone, just that (someone unnamed says) the system was used against it. You simply made that part up about whether it worked or not. You can keep checking for updates and report back ;)
1
Wouldn't be wonderful if we could believe what our President says? Trump is a habitual liar so you can't trust he is telling the truth or that he even knows what the truth is.
Truth, honor and accountability is irrelevant in Trump's world.
Trump thinks he's clever with his lies, deceit and manipulations, but when he needs Americans to trust him at his word - his word carries no weight or legitimacy. The man is a liar, plain and simple.
207
Every one of you has herein proven your personal political ideology. It is not to your own country.
What a wonderful platform on which to run a political campaign.
Welcome to 2020.
5
Isn’t Diogenes the guy who searched with a lamp looking for an honest fellow? In vain.
8
I love the United States. But Donald Trump is a pathological liar. Just because we don’t support Trump, doesn’t mean we don’t love the United States. Trump is just one man. The last I checked... most Americans (hopefully) are still independent thinkers.
70
@Diogenes
A lot of people have the "personal political ideology" that the President of the United States should be intelligent, well-informed, behave like a grown-up, have some kind of moral compass and work for the benefit of all Americans, not just the ones who show up at his rallies and cheer on his worst impulses and attributes. Trump is so unhinged and lies so much that he cannot be believed anymore. Mr. Araghchi presents himself as sane and rational; The current President of the United States does not. That's a serious problem.
Xenophobia, willful ignorance, racism, sexism, cruelty, lies and war-mongering - What a wonderful platform on which to run a political campaign.
34
I believe the Iranians.
182
@Gary Trump is the President who has cried волк too many times already. Especially when he’s is having a bad news day.
15
That the claims of both sides are equally implausible -- with the nod not going to Trump -- says it all.
15
This response is a no-brainer for the Iranian administration.
Not only do they hold much more credibility with the international community than Trump and the GOP, but also with much of the American public.
We'll likely never know what happened in the Strait of Hormuz.
63
The Iranians are playing into anti-Trump sentiments: seizing another opportunity to further divide the US citizens....Brilliant strategy !
We must respect the office of the POTUS and stand united against a culture of true hatred.
4
@Marie Walsh
"We must respect the office of the POTUS and stand united against a culture of true hatred."
That's why I'm not voting for Trump.
352
I’ll start respecting the office again when Trump does.
107
@Marie Walsh You write that the Iranians are "seizing another opportunity to further divide the US citizens"
Trump is doing a bang-up job of this all on his own. He certainly doesn't need assistance from the Iranians.
152
Who are you going to believe?
Trump, or the Ayatollah?
The answer is - Neither.
They're both liars.
Neither one of them can be trusted.
33
@John Doe:
and we are left wondering
who between the two will turn out
to be the more level-headed?
1
@John Doe,
that may be the case, but only one of them started this and where it may lead ...and for no valid reason and only one of them as we speak,continues to attack and damage the Iranian economy as well as threaten the welfare and wellbeing of it's almost 100 million citizens it has already hurt.
I believe the Iranians.........
We are through the looking glass.........
50
Bsy of Tonkin again?
9
It’s really a sad day when the American people believe the Iranian leadership over the POTUS.
286
I believe Trump.
7
Bob-I was going to use those exact words.
10
@Bob
It’s a really sad entire term of presidential office holding.
25
A spokesman for the Iranian Armed Forces has much more credibility than the US president.
Sad!
424
Video, or it didn't happen.
33
"Iranians Deny Drone Downed." Try saying that five times fast.
10
We are not supposed to be neutral we are Canada a US satellite economy yet we find Iran and the USA equally credible. Yesterday I asked if the drone came from Amazon or Alibaba Express because that is the only credible evidence either side is likely to deliver.
19
Is Iran learning the Trump game, Lie and Deny?
11
I am a US citizen. I believe Iran over the words of the American government, and the vast majority of the world agrees with me.
Let that sink in.
594
@Jim
Yep.
Trump violated the Iran agreement leading to this.
It’s no wonder that people have a difficult time believing a guy who has lied constantly, and over 10,000 times in the last couple of years.
17
@Jim I am a US citizen and I am right there with you along with the rest of the civilized world. Notice the highest recommends in this column do not believe trump.
17
@Jim
I totally believe Javad. he has more intelligence in his little the than Trump has altogether.
7
Strategic ambiguity on the Iranian's part. Now we're to wonder whether the U.S. military can long suffer a civilian leader that cannot be believed: did the U.S. military really shoot down a drone but now they can't be believed because their Commander in Chief is such a liar that when the Iranians claim otherwise, everyone wonders if Trump is lying.
Such ambiguity is certainly worth the price of a drone.
89
@Chris -- And of course, the strategic ambiguity is directed to us the voters, not the military which knows what it did and did not do.
But then perhaps Trump does not know what the military actually did. Now that is ambiguity weaponized.
5
President Trump is now tasting his own medicine. Welcome to the world of alternative facts and realities!
269
@Vaez Terrific take. A gaslighter being gaslighted
47
What a tin pot caricature we are!
Now falsely claiming we shot down an Iranian drone.
And yes, I believe the Irsnians more than our government.
We are great again!
161
Hate to think this way, but I tend to believe Iran rather than Trump--he's told so many lies that it's become impossible to believe anything he says . . .
439
Where's the beef?
10
Unless the Trump administration provides video proof then it must be assumed that they are lying-as they always seem to be. Even if they provide video proof it would have to be verified.
114
@Clayton Strickland
I'm afraid that video's can be manipulated. Trump and his administration can't be believed about anything. I will believe our NATO allies, so I hope that NYT and other media use them as sources.
2
Hmm. Do I believe the Iranians, or Trump. That's an easy one. It's come to that.
229
"Iranian officials . . . denied that the American military had downed an Iranian drone in the Strait of Hormuz." Okay Iran, then where exactly WAS the Iranian drone downed?
5
@Jay Orchard maybe the drone was never shot down. USA military would have video of this if a drone were so close and shot down. Where is it? Has the pentagon confirmed a drone? Maybe Trump just blurted this out?
31
@Len
By now I think the drone is in Area 51.
11
@Len
Don’t worry, the US Gov will come up with video footage. It just takes a few days to produce and edit the film. Be patient.
12
It's sad but because this administration lies so much, I always believe the other side until proof is shown. Proof is seldom shown.
75
Oops! Looks like we shot down our OWN drone...
62