Eye-opening. You can understand a bank has no idea what's been confidentially put in a safe box. That said, to mistake, remove, not secure and downright lose someone's contents is inexcusable. Additionally, to not insure boxes up to at least $50,000 each (which, in large numbers is not expensive for the bank) should come with the box rental---the cost of which could be raised to cover the insurance cost. Horrible situation.
17
Wells Fargo cheat a customer? Come on that never happens.
27
In future, would the prudent thing to do be to insure items what are in a safe deposit box? Would insurance companies issue policies that protect such items?
8
In December 2016 I went to my Sparta Wells Fargo branch to get my husband’s original Will, so that it could be probated.
I had gone to the box over the years, and the previous time I had opened it was to put in the 2 Wills that were executed in 2014.
When I asked to get to my box, my signature card was not in their box of cards. Although I have several active accounts with the bank, they had not bothered to try to contact me before they discarded my signature card.
The reason they had destroyed my card was that the box was not connected to any name on their computer system’s “safety box file”. They assumed I was not a customer without ever looking into their banking system.
They did not have keys that could open the box, so they could not rent the box to another customer. They had not opened the box. All they did was discard the signature card.
The reason I was not on their computer system for the box was that I had opened the Wachovia account in NC, and I was offered a free safe deposit box for as long as I kept my checking account. When I moved to Sparta, NJ in 2003, the free safe deposit box was automatically given to me. If they had put me into their computer system, they would have had to charge me. Then Wells Fargo bought Wachovia.
I had to bring 2 forms of photo ID and stand outside of the locked gate as 2 bankers opened my box with the key I supplied. On top of the box was the Will with my husband’s name. I was charged rent from that day on.
14
Mr. Poniz had long ago switched from a being a personal collector to a professional, as the article explains. It is inexcusable and entirely on him that he failed to insure this collection. Insuring watches and collector's coins is exactly what the inland marine policy is for, whether the personal lines version (called a "floater" or "personal articles policy") or the commercial policy. Discounts for storage in a safe deposit box are standard fare. A safe deposit box is a guarded and limited-access self-storage unit; insurance is necessary for the contents in both cases.
Wells Fargo again shows its vicious negligence and criminality in all things dealing with customers. Though any bank might make this mistake, as the article notes, WF has a long history of abusing customers in multiple ways over the years. It should have been broken up and dissolved years ago, when its multiple account scams and forced insurance and foreclosures on veterans and ... were disclosed. The economic theology of The Market is not solving these bank problems; regulations are needed.
Another item here is that some banks do not even require the safe deposit box key holder to show an identifying document like a driver's license. The Times reported on this about a year ago. Anyone with a stolen or duplicated box key can gain access with nothing more than a smile.
11
Not that post offices will have safe deposit boxes but this is another reason to support proposals by Bernie Sanders, Kirsten Gillibrand and AOC to allow Postal Service banking.
6
My box with a local bank certainly has nothing a thief would want. That said, where do people keep things like the car title, passport, or memorabilia they want to protect?
6
@Anne-Marie Hislop
There are 2 vectors of loss here. One is a thief gaining access to the safe deposit box. That is very unlikely. A thief gaining access to your home is far more likely.
The second is the negligence of the bank, as recounted in this article about banks routinely, if infrequently, messing up.
Doing a safe at home is a solution, but it really has to be a very good safe and bolted to the floor or wall inside a closet with a grade 1 high-security lock on a solid wood or steel or other tough door. Less than that, and I would revert back to the bank option.
4
Ironic, isn't it? The crooks that used to rob the Wells Fargo stage coaches in those old cowboy movies are now running the bank.
23
Banks are far too powerful, with little to no accountability. They even got huge bonuses from the taxpayers when they crashed the world economy.
14
Part 2:
At no time did I ever hear or know of any kind of malfeasance or illegality on the part of a bank, and there surely can't be much to suspect when the writer is telling us of 44 instances out of 25 million boxes. Still, wrong things can happen. I was involved in one instance where the man breaking open a box inadvertently broke the lock on the next box, and the tax authorities were suddenly seeing many thousands of dollars in a box they had no right to see to begin with. What do they do in such a case? I don't know, but I do know that we immediately called the customer and he came in and removed the money, which was his right to do.
Over 50 years back, some customer with whom my bank had a dispute apparently came in to deposit something into his SD box and then left for good. The "something" was a large dead fish, and in no time, that branch's SD area was a no-man's-land. I don't know how long it took to locate the offending box!
There are lots of such stories around, I guess, but I know of no system as safe as a safe deposit box for protecting assets. They are not as necessary as was once the case, mainly because just about no one holds stock certificates any longer, whereas 50 years back, that was probably the greatest usage for SD boxes. But this article really seems to be another of those 'gotcha - look what can go wrong' Times pieces, possibly intended to make people afraid to use a safety procedure which has proven overwhelmingly effective for centuries.
6
I am sadly unsurprised to read the bank mistook Mr. Poniz box for another with the same number. When I emptied mine earlier this year, it took almost half an hour for them to find my box. There were several with my number in the vault, and they apparently have no system for associating your access record with the box number.
The reason for multiple boxes with the same number is that they buy banks of boxes from other banks and don't renumber or re-key them.
They don't know which keys go with which boxes (AFAICT), so every box had to be attempted with multiple keys. They apparently had a note on the card that my box used "the black key". Surprise! They no longer had such thing as a black key.
It was nuts. Extremely unprofessional.
9
Gives a whole new meaning to the term bank robbery.
7
Continuation of my previous comment: I wanted to take my letter to Citi CEO Michael Corbat public and even had a conversation with the New York Times and ABC's 7 On Your Side, but I ultimately decided not to pursue the issue, which I now regret. Of course, my decision came after years of frustration and Citibank's total lack of responsibility. I figured taking the issue public would simply generate more aggravation. I had asked Citi to give lie detector tests to both me and the two women who oversaw my branch's safety deposit boxes, but Citi's "investigators," while pretending to help, apparently did nothing, and Michael Corbat himself never responded. Unless an invisible thief stole my jewelry from Citi's vault, the representative did, as she had access to my open box and no business staying alone with it in the vault. Shame on Citibank.
5
Wells Fargo?
Their name says it all as for many, it will not go well and in fact...
...ALL "Wells" will Far Go!
5
Baby boomers and the like, don't forget to ask your elderly parents about their SDB. It's a bad place to have valuables stashed, especially after death. Remove it asap. Most lawyers hate SDBs. They don't want anything to do with them. And do your parent(s) recall what they even put into it 15 or 20 years ago? Highly unlikely. Some or the bank's workers know who your parents are, total targets.
9
Many years ago, the contents of my safety deposit box at Barclays Bank in Madrid (formerly Banco Zaragozano) were stolen. Yes, this can and does happen. Barclays Bank took zero responsibilty for this. And after many years of getting absolutely nowhere, I gave up. I thought I was the only person that could be so unlucky until reading this article.
10
I have a new pearl of wisdom for my clients: distribute your hard assets over several different safe deposit boxes just in case lightening strikes and one of them is compromised. Also, is it possible to get insurance against safe deposit box losses?
1
A few years ago, I wrote to Citibank Chairman Michael Corbat regarding a jewelry theft from my deposit box, but I did not receive an ounce of satisfaction in return. I was in the vault at Citi on Madison & 65th -- since closed -- waiting to put my box back when another customer entered the outside lobby, which is supposed to be locked at all times. I ran back to retrieve my handbag, which I'd left in the small room, leaving my open deposit box in the vault with the Citi representative. Several months later, I noticed that jewelry was missing; I complained to the branch manager, who tried to convince me I'd misplaced it, though that wasn't a possibility since several pieces had never left the box. The cameras at the time weren't digital, so the security tape had been erased. After multiple letters and calls, Citi closed the case and refused to disclose details of the "investigation." They probably did nothing.
8
Sounds like a common issue. Did you file a police report?
2
@Jake Yes, right after I discovered the jewelry was missing, I went to the 19th Precinct, on E. 67th Street. There wasn't much they could do, but they did say it would've been better if I had called the police from the bank and had them take a report there. If I'd gone back to my box within two weeks of the theft there might've been camera evidence. I'm not sure, though, because Citi was totally unhelpful, so I suspect they wouldn't have released the tape. They just wanted me to go away while they feigned concern. It was horrible, as is the memory still.
5
This is Part One:
I spent about 35 years at various banks, often being involved in the forced opening of safe deposit boxes. First of all, I do not ever recall a time when SD customers were not advised to take photographs of anything of value placed in a box, and to keep those photos at home or otherwise separated. How else can they even attempt to prove what was in a box, since the bank does not witness what goes into one of them?; only the customer knows that. Boxes were usually opened (broken open or otherwise) for 3 reasons: 1) the boxholder was deceased and the key couldn't be found; 2) the rental fees were considerably in arrears and the box was needed for other customers; 3) there was an inventory by the State of Federal tax people, usually regarding a deceased boxholder's estate. Boxes to be broken open were prearranged, with someone from the SD company, two bank employees (one of them a bank officer), a notary public, and (as the occasion warranted) members of the deceased's family (and/or their attorney) and an official from the State or Federal Tax authorities. Each item in the box was examined by all of those people, evaluated by the tax rep, entered into an inventory list, a copy of which was provided to everyone, and then either released by the tax agent, or held in a sealed and signed inventory envelope at the bank, that envelope in a much larger SD box, unable to be removed of handed over to the proper parties, until released by the tax people.
See Part 2.
2
Image and Brand Analysts better be harvesting all these comments to understand the reputational harm caused by 1) internal bank culture of greed and 2) valuing shareholders and exec comp higher than the property rights of depositors and SDB customers. That’s the crux of the matter that goes back to the financial crisis of ‘08. Greed. Avarice. Dishonesty. Once lost, never to be recovered.
7
My mother had 2 safety deposit boxes at 2 different Wells Fargo Branches in Harrisburg, PA. I had power of attorney for her accounts and was listed on her bank accounts at Wells Fargo. She fell very ill and I made arrangements to fly to Pennsylvania and access to these 2 safety deposit boxes. Unfortunately, she passed away before my trip. I was named executrix of her estate. I worked with my lawyer and Wells Fargo again, this time for my lawyer to gain access to these 2 boxes (saving me another trip to PA.) After spending many hours on the phone with Wells Fargo and and generating legal fees, my lawyer prepared documents that would allow him to enter these 2 safety deposit boxes on my behalf. All went as planned with box number one - he found approximately $180,000 of bonds in the first safety deposit box. My lawyer then went to the other Wells Fargo Branch in Harrisburg, PA with the exact same documents. This branch refused to let my lawyer into the second safety deposit box. And, this Wells Fargo Branch refused to tell him what documents would be necessary for him to gain entry into this box. Many more hours of phone calls were made and many more hours of legal bills were racked up against my mom's estate. When my attorney finally accessed this second safety deposit box, the box was empty except for 2 paper clips. I always wondered if someone got into this safety deposit box before my lawyer. I think I now know the answer.
17
@AustinTuxedoCat
Your assertion is arrant nonsense. While the second branch may have had some misunderstanding of the procedures involved (breaking open or accessing SD boxes is hardly a daily occurrence), they would have immediately contacted the Bank's legal department, and if your lawyer was any good he ALREADY KNEW EXAXCTLY WHAT HE WOULD BE REQUIRED TO SUBMIT FOR ACCESS. Furthermore, all powers of attorney cease being valid immediately upon the death of the box holder. Your (and the lawyer's) only access right to both boxes at that point would be through Letters of Administration, Letters Testamentary and a Tax Waiver issued by the State involved. Who could have gotten into the SD box before your lawyer, since he and/or you had the access key(s)? It just doesn't happen that way and, as they often say about classical music, don't write about it if you don't know about it because ignorance will be apparent to every knowledgeable person almost from the opening sentence and then on. The same goes here, as the article is similarly unencumbered by both fact and process throughout, and has now given you unfounded doubts (which was probably its intent). For the record, many of the box openings in my experience usually found little more than paper clips, rubber bands and the like, because the box holder had given up usage years before and just walked away from it.
2
Stuff does happen. When you think about, would you expect banks to have a liability of millions of dollars in return for a $246 annual fee (paid by the couple mentioned in the article?) To me, that's not a reasonable assumption. Obviously an actual insurance policy would cost thousands or tens of thousands. There's no free lunch. The moral is that if there's a lot of money involved, read the fine print.
6
It is about earning your trust. It is not about anything else. You’re thinking like an MBA.
3
@ATF
Nobody seems to want to address the central problem here. How does a box holder prove what was in his or her box? Is the bank supposed to just accept their assertion that they had 20 million bucks in the box, or perhaps the Hope Diamond? There must be a way to prove, if not what was actually in the box, then at least the purchase of same via checks, transfers, etc., a bill of sale, evidence from others who saw the items, etc. And if you did have 20 million bucks in the box, you will surely have better things to worry about from the I.R.S. in very short order. This article simply does not make sense as written - or, for that matter, as interpreted by the gullible.
1
I read this as another glaring example of how our laws aren’t protecting people and ordinary citizens but corporations and their interests. We have to get the money out of politics. It’s corruption
13
Big target (many safe deposit boxes in one place), big interest by thieves. A quality gun safe in the home, bolted to the floor, is a a much better option, plus, you will have 24 x 7 access, storage for additional items such as hard drives, PCs, tax returns and personal items for protection from a devastating home fire.
5
The other side not presented here. If liable for contents, no bank would offer safe deposit boxes at a price anyone would pay. The cost of liability insurance would have to be factored in - and with potential for fraudulent claims and huge payouts, that would have to be high-priced insurance. Sounds like the owners of items are trying to make the banks provide retroactively, free insurance for valuable items. Also, box owners could not have privacy for contents if the banks were to assume liability for each item.
6
Hmm... even though I don't have near the value of Mr. Poniz in my safety deposit box, this article makes me want to run to my bank to see if my belongings are still there. But I'm reading this on Sunday morning so I can't. I'm also amazed at the callous attitude of the banks even after how their reputations suffered from the financial crisis.
6
@Accordion
This has nothing to do with how the banks' reputations suffered in the financial crisis. It has to do pure and simple with the way SD box rental contracts have ALWAYS been maintained. When you deposit money in your checking account and then issue checks which the bank will then pay, that is an assumed fiduciary arrangement which has been going on for about a thousand years, and it has NOTHING to do with any reputations suffered from the financial crisis. Same goes for safe deposit boxes. The level of financial ignorance in this country never ceases to amaze me, anymore than does the inept writing about it in the Times.
1
Why am I not surprised that Wells Fargo has exploited yet another little-known scheme to steal from it's own clients?
26
All I know is when a very close friend of mine had a couple hundred tabs of LSD back around 1970, he stashed them in a bank's safety deposit box. And when he wanted to take a trip, he visited the bank and made a withdrawl. What safer place could there be? he asked. It seemed like a reasonable thing to do.
6
Wish I’d thought of that (in 1970).
For people with “fireproof” safes—check the fine print. The safe may survive a small fire, but papers inside may still burn. And in a big firestorm, like we have had here in California, with 2000 degree heat, the safe will burn up, just like the car sitting in the driveway. I’m not sure there is any home safe that will survive a really big fire. On the other hand, the B of A where we have our safe deposit box had a big fire about 20 years ago. Most of the building was destroyed. All the safe deposit boxes and their contents were just fine.
5
Our good friends had safe deposit box issues, so had a good-sized safe sunk deep into their dressing room floor when they had their house renovated. All the jewelry, heirloom photos, etc were safe.
For ten years, it was all good. Then they came home one day and somehow, someone had known about it and it was almost completely empty.
One can’t win for losing.
6
Years ago a relative found a diamond necklace in her relatively empty safety deposit box that wasn’t hers. She reported it to the bank and their response was if it’s in your box it’s yours. No one else had a key to the box.
8
Must be in the US where banks can actually sell space in unsecured vaults with close to zero liability.
10
Best strategy, sell the valuables and convert to bitcoin. Impossible to steal unless you reveal the private key.
2
Surprised that bank safety deposit boxes are not 100% safe. Discouraging to say the least.
5
You can purchase insurance for items kept in a safe deposit box. For example, the American Numismatic Association arranges for its members to be able to purchase insurance that covers rare coins stored in safe deposit boxes. What this article really tells me is that, even if you store your valuables in a safe deposit box, it is still necessary to insure them. The insurance can get expensive but perhaps, anyone who cannot afford to insure his or her valuables,might be better off selling them.
6
So this begs the question, where is a safer place to store this level of valuables? Certainly not home, given the ability of ruthless robbers to torture the owner(s) to open a home vault.
Who else, where else?
6
@Svante Aarhenius - My grandpa raised me with an incredible mistrust of banks. He went through the Depression and literally every time I saw him in my entire life he would go off on the banks. "Never trust a bank. They took our homes and dumped us on the streets and they will do it again. If you can't pay cash, you can't afford it".
Grandpa would have never had a safe deposit box. He had King (a very large male German Shepherd) wandering the yard and inside he always had his 12-gauge loaded and at his bedside.
Grandpa didn't live to see the 2008 recession when the banks did the same thing and took all of those homes. But his message seems to have gotten through to me. I have a credit union account but keep nothing in it. No credit cards and no loans. And I'm not into "valuables".
I don't have a safe deposit box at home unless you count my earthquake kit by the front door for when the big one comes. About a week ago, we had 6 or more quakes one night in an hour. The largest was only 4.6 followed 2 minutes later with a 3.5 and while I have gone through 100 or more including a 7.1, last week really spooked me out. A bank cannot protect my valuables:)) Even King and grandpa's 12-gauge won't help when the big one comes with its 100' tsunami:)
3
Until laws are changed so that banks are as liable as you or I would be, never ever sit on a jury and find any one guilty of robbing a bank, or murdering a bank employee during a robbery.
Personally, I would turn the bank world upside down and find an attorney that actually understood RICO and would bring suit under that law. To use the legal system as your goons is no different than the mafia Don who sends knee breakers to keep you in line.
5
The financial industry is and always has been criminal.
20
If you live in Los Angeles you can count on having your house robbed. So, figure out where you are going to hide the stuff. You are probably better off if you refrain from having anything expensive in the house like cash and jewelry.
5
When I first moved to California, I was delighted to think that I could have an account at Wells Fargo, a bank with such an old, romantic name. Three years later, sick of dealing with their horrible customer service, I closed the account and moved on.
19
Note to self. Banks really don't care about you or your money. Buy a safe and put your money under your mattress.
11
I had a recent experience at Bank of America safe deposit box. There is a lot of opportunity for employee theft. If someone is late on their annual fee or passes away, they drill the box and "put it in storage." Who is drilling and putting it into storage? Nothing is videotaped. You are better off putting your valuables in a tin box under your bed.
13
The "new" Wells Fargo sounds an awful lot like the old Wells Fargo. There are good reasons to stay away.
15
I guess it is back to stuffing valuables in a mattress? Seriously, where now to people store their valuables?
3
Here we go again with Wells Fargo. A corrupt, criminal institution, caught red-handed cheating multiple times, and yet, people still bank there. Caveat emptor, folks. They are crooks - you deal with them at your peril.
20
Hello Elizabeth Warren we need you to work on this asap!....the banks are not safe and they exploit their working customers....more like criminals than legit bankers who should take their fiduciary responsibility seriously....but they do not.
10
I'm emptying my safe deposit box and cancelling its lease. My stuff is safer in my home-the bank can't get in there and do something stupid.
7
If you need a reminder of just how nice banks are, listen to Michael Lewis podcast “The seven minute rule” and his experience with CITI BANK.
7
A case where life should imitate art.
Gringotts Wizarding Bank is the only bank of the wizarding world, and is owned and operated by goblins. It was created by a goblin called Gringott, in 1474. Its main offices are located around the North Side of Diagon Alley in London, England. In addition to storing money and valuables for wizards and witches, one can go there to exchange Muggle money for wizarding money, which appeared to not be very difficult, as shown when Hermione Granger's parents did so while paying for her school supplies. The currency exchanged by Muggles is later returned to circulation in the Muggle world by goblins.[1] According to Rubeus Hagrid, other than Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, Gringotts is the safest place in the wizarding world.
The motto of Gringotts Wizarding Bank is Fortius Quo Fidelius, a Latin phrase that means "Strength through loyalty".[2]
6
@Inigo Montoya - I cannot love your comment enough!
I believe that IF you have valuables of sufficient value to protect your best bet is a tp quality fire proof safe
1
How can Wells Fago still be in business ?
16
So what are we supposed to do with valuables we don't want to keep in our homes? We can take out renter's insurance or add something to our homeowner's insurance but if banks stop supplying safe deposit boxes what do we do? Storage facilities aren't as safe.
It seems to me that the financial industry, banks in particular, want to make our lives with them as inconvenient as possible by closing branches, eliminating human contact, and persuading us that online banking is easier and safer. However, as they eliminate jobs and human contact they are not eliminating the need and there are times when face to face contact is necessary. What are we paying them for if everything is automated?
5
A woman had a grievance against a bank.
So she rented a safe deposit box, put several fresh fish in it, and took an extended trip to Europe.
The bank manager had to determine which box the fish were in (using the olfactory method). Because the woman was in Europe, he had to get a court judgement (taking days) allowing him to open the box.
For some reason, business declined during this period. One wonders why?
However, it turns out that keeping fresh fish in a safe deposit box isn’t illegal ...
24
If you're the renter of a "safe" deposit box, it sounds like the biggest danger to your valuables is the bank itself.
22
Another tale of the rich organization taking advantage of the little guy, who loses his retirement...
Yet another consequence of hollowing out the middle class.
Banks and other institutions are keen to hollow out the organization, creating a few top-level managers and very low-paid entry-level employees. This works fine in normalized transactions with sufficient controls, but fails for one-off non-standard transactions with high risk. This is as true for banks as for health care and financial services; they know it, and they want out of any such transactions.
That makes sense. When you had to bank at the bank in town, they had to provide all the financial services to keep customers happy. Now all financial services are a la carte over the web. I guess we'll have to wait until someone can make a business of safe deposit boxes -- that includes insurance against misadventure. (Probably it will come with a side of secure-drone delivery, itself a sideline of some defense contractor)
4
I used to keep a safe deposit box until I needed to access it so frequently that it made sense to buy a home safe. I researched and ended up buying an American Security safe. Much better than a so-called fireproof box.
2
This makes me think of all the old bank buildings all over the city. Buildings that were designed to convey the sense of strength, security and permanence. They no longer house banks. Did banks stop holding these values, or did they ever?
6
Back when banks were formidably built structures, renting a safe deposit box had some logic to it. Now as banks are setting up outposts in spaces in various buildings, it doesn’t make sense to me. My bank sold their building and relocated to a space in a supermarket, and I simply cannot picture myself taking my valuables to a supermarket for safekeeping.
6
My sincere congratulations to reporter Stacy Cowley. Her research on "Safety" Deposit boxes, is excellent, and a real eye opener. I consider her report a public service. While I have no need of a Safety Deposit box at the moment. I have from time to time considered renting one. Lastly, I am extremely tempted to go on a rant, about the unscrupulous business practices of Wells Fargo Bank in particular, and many companies in the banking industry over all. So much for "Read the small print" and "Let the buyer beware". A sad commentary on our International Business community today.
32
It is important to know that you can get a rider on your homeowner's insurance policy to cover the contents of your safe deposit box.
Pay the money, then at least you have a corporate entity to go up against a negligent bank.
29
Thank you for this article. I always believed items in a safe deposit box are completely safe. I guess that they are not. Why didn’t Wells Fargo try to contact Mr. Poniz? I am glad I don’t do business with Wells Fargo.
20
I had a safe deposit box for years. I kept jewelry I no longer wore and some sentimental items in it plus important papers. Once a year, I would haul all my sterling silver flatware up to the bank and put it in a larger box I rented for one month.
I finally got tire of doing this and bought a large safe for my own house. Only one person has the combination - my daughter. And yes, I DO trust her. In her 47 years on this earth, she has never given me any reason not to do so.
And I certainly trust there more than I would my local bank after reading this article! Yes, safes are expensive but at least one has some control over them, and it will be very convenient someday for my daughter to just put all highly portable valuables into that safe if I have to hire caregivers. I know far too many people who have had everything valuable stolen, one piece at a time by caregivers.
13
A safe deposit box at Wells Fargo in North Carolina: what could go wrong?
12
This is one more example of how our nation is not a Republic anymore, but an Oligarchy, with its President, Senate and most importantly its Judiciary nominated, confirmed — or, in the ct banks and businesses in the world. The switch to Oligarchy was formalized when the Supreme Court extended to corporations the same protections intended by our Founders for We the People-- individual human beings-- and only We the People, and allowed corporations to finance election campaigns without limit. It is disgusting. Until we once again have a Democratic President, Senate and House — and our able to pass an amendment reversing that Supreme Court decision, we will remain an Oligarchy, ruled by a puppet President and Senate. This is reminiscent of the old Soviet Union, substituting Big Money for The Party, and only massive turnout in the next elections can start reversing this shameful state of affairs.
19
Yet another area where banks desperately need regulation. I am voting for Elizabeth Warren. She is the only candidate that promises to set up procedures that will curtail abuse by banks and other financial institutions against helpless consumers. Banks are arrogant. I remember a famous New Yorker cartoon where a customer is facing a bank teller who says: "Here is, as you say, "your" money." That is how banks approach their customers. No wonder people distrust them.
37
What I don't understand is why and how Wells Fargo continues to exist. It has to be the worst bank in the history of American banks, and yet people still trust it and regulators still allow it to survive. It's insane.
25
Why would anybody ever trust Wells Fargo with anything?
25
Readers here await Comment by Wells Fargo interim CEO C. Allen Parker that he will reimburse from his own personal fortunes gained there those losses suffered by Mr. Poniz.
19
Maybe they moved his stuff into the other account they opened in his name.
7
Take a photo of the contents every time you access your box.
11
Never trust Wells Fargo to do anything right.
14
Wells Fargo? I wouldn't steal one of their pens.
7
I haven't time to scroll through all the comments, so, if anyone else has said this I apologize.
It used to be said the best way to rob a bank is to own one. Turns out to be a truism.
13
Without going into details, the shenanigans committed by Bank of America here are typical. Avoid. Avoid. Avoid.
5
Sad and infuriating article. I feel for the people who've been scammed out of their valuables, and in some cases had their lives ruined, by these criminal banks. For that's what they are -- criminal.
To Stacy Cowley: Thank you for writing this exposé. Another film/TV series you might want to add to your list is "The Hatton Garden Heist," based on the notorious robbery of safe deposit box contents in London in 2015. Four-part series made by ITV in Britain and just released this year.
12
why does anyone bank with Wells Fargo anymore?
6
Large banks stealing your money.They are really good at it.
8
I'm absolutely shocked that Wells Fargo has (yet again) proven untrustworthy. Anyone purposely doing business with them ought to have his or her head examined.
9
When your home mortgage is sold to Wells Fargo you have no choice but to hold your nose and do business with them. I told my lender to place a note in their files to not sell my home mortgage to Wells Fargo. The may do it anyway, but it felt good to put it in writing.
2
Fascinating column. Mr Poniz's watches are in some person's possession but their value can't be unlocked unless sold. Presumably the auction houses are aware of the situation and will call the authorities if these watches appear for auction. I hope Mr Poniz manages to get his property returned to him. I would love to see a video of the singing bird pocket watch in action.
19
"And yes, stop beating up on Wells Fargo just because you can."
Are you kidding ? It should be a LONG long time before anyone lets them off the hook. And since being caught red-handed, they have STILL engaged in dishonest practices. Openly & blatantly.
Not that there ever really was any honor or honesty in this sad sad world, it seems all the shackles are off anymore. There doesn't seem to be any moral or legal control on anyone or anything anymore. And the amazing part ? It is all done openly. Business, Politics, you name it. Everything is for sale and corrupt - Everything! How sad & disgusting.
9
Why wouldn’t you insure your valuables under a Personal Articles Floater????
2
Moral of the story - banks suck. They don't protect your money or assets, they don't care about you and they only care about executive compensation and shareholders. Most people would be much better off to "bank" with a credit union.
10
Majority of USA corporations are out to get you by hook or crook. Reason, they have our elected politicians in their back pocket to pass laws for their benefit, especially "Arbitrary clause". you can never WIN.
8
Thank you so much for the warning.
I pay my box fee for safety. I do trust the bank - Frost in Texas - but will now check the contract.
In the de-regulated state, there are no true havens from dishonesty.
Who handled those amazing watches?
4
Are there viable alternatives to a safe deposit box at a bank?
3
I had a safe deposit box with Bank of America for two years and closed it when I moved. After 10 years i got a letter saying I still have safe deposit box at the old branch. I called and told them I had closed my account and returned my keys etc. They said OK we will close it. This was in 2016 and now we are in 2019 and they still claim the account is still open in-spite of me going to their branch over 15 times and repeatedly filling in new forms to close it. I just give up I know my box is empty. Shame on Bank of America
27
As a locksmith once told me, locks are there to keep the honest people out.
14
I’m sorry the guy lost his watches but the truth of the matter is, watches are becoming obsolete. Everyone uses their cell phones nowadays.
1
Yeah. I feel the same ways about my collection of denarii. The Roman Empire is gone, so I'd never get to spend them anyway.
25
@DB Most things that people collect are obsolete.
5
@DB so true. With the ubiquity of Target and IKEA, I have just trashed all my Ming Dynasty vases. Who needs em when I can get a case of bud vases for like $6.99.
7
I haven't trusted the idea of the boxes since 9/11 when great collections were lost. But I'd never consider putting all my valuables (if I had any!) into one box. I bet readers will re-evaluate after reading these horror stories. And don't the banks have phones? They could have called the owners.
8
Chase only called me to try to sell me something, like a no-interest loan, relentlessly.
3
In another of life's ironies: We pulled out of Wells Fargo in protest after the scandals and went with a university credit union. We recently got a mortgage from the credit union at a wonderful rate. The credit union just sold our mortgage to Wells Fargo.
It's been a long time since we last had a mortgage, and I didn't know that the bank where a customer chose to obtain a mortgage could turn around sell that mortgage without obtaining permission and alerting the customer.
9
Unfortunately, mortgages can be sold at any time. And packaged into financial products, that investors bet on. And resold. And people can default on them by the thousands. And as a result, the stock market can crash like it did in 2008.
9
@PB I would make an educated guess that every mortgage is sold at least once. Most mortgage loan originators only want the fees to process the loan, not the loan itself.
9
I stored my family member's passports in our SDB. When I tried to get them out a few days in advance of travel the box would not open properly. It looked as if the weighted of contents of the other boxes may have possibly been why, who knows. So it took them a couple of days to get someone into the vault area to remove the lock, etc. We finally picked them up, on the way to the airport. I closed the box immediately thereafter. The workers could've cared less. They hate the boxes and I am only guessing that they disliked some of the box customers as well.
11
I worked closely as a television series reporter with the U.S Secret Service financial crimes division in the mid 90's. What I learned was the best way to rob a bank was from the inside. People worked for years to gain positions of authority, only to loot customers accounts and yes, safe deposit boxes, when the time was right. And the bank might fire you, but protect your theft. No doubt all the instances outlined in the article was grand theft by bank employees.
46
Thanks for the article. My wife and I have two safe deposit boxes at the US Bank branch close to our apartment. We got them a number of years ago after returning from a trip to Las Vegas and finding that our apartment had been burglarized. The thieves only took jewelry and laptops, but of course we had to contact every financial institution where we had an account and have our accounts changed which was a royal pain. After that we got the boxes and put our laptops and key financial and other docs in there. So nothing really valuable, but it is still disturbing to think the contents could be lost and then we'd STILL have to go through the same effort as if the apartment had been burglarized.
I feel for the folks that have items of significant value in their boxes, and am once again disgusted by how banks treat their customers.
22
Thank you for the public service of publishing this article. Monday morning will find me cleaning out my safe deposit box.
One silver lining: perhaps some companies solely dedicated to safe and secure storage of family jewelry and heirlooms will get into the mix. It's sad to find out that banks abhor the business, and that many do not perform it well at all.
35
I am a Chase customer and shareholder.
I intend to introduce a shareholder resolution prohibiting the bank from requiring arbitration in any dispute involving the Bank and a natural person.
30
Face the issue: bank negligence.
1
I have only one question...Mr Poniz was able to open his box that had been drilled & emptied. Why did he key work?
Drilling ruins the lock so...🤔
Thank you for this information. We’ll be ending our safe deposit lease on renewal.
4
This is no surprise. Several years ago when I would go to my Bank of America branch to access the safe, I would have to sign an index card associated with my box # and often was presented with a card (or cards) from previous owners of the box that the bank never destroyed. And when I lost my box key, the bank told me that they could not make me another one, but I was able to go to a guy who made keys and get a duplicate of my husband's, which means that any previous owner of the box could have kept a duplicate key and still access the box. When I asked the bank manager why they still kept old signature cards, he said "they're were working on it."
25
What does this say about our banks and our government? The banks are not friendly entities as portrayed in the commercials. They are thieves and Congress lets them get away with these crimes. Congress is against anyone who has accumulated wealth so people with safety deposit boxes are the last people they will protect.
9
Thank you for the information. Something we never even considered, just when our bank is downsizing to a branch and will do who knows what withe the safety deposit boxes. We’ll try to find out....
8
Local banking is the answer. I am on a first-name basis with the tellers and at the drive-through. My GR expects a treat and she gets one if she is in the car. Shop local. Eat local. Bank local. Your community will be a better place.
18
But a local bank can very easily become part of a bigger regional bank and then even a national bank. For years I banked at First Federal of Charleston. Then it became South State. I still know the tellers at my local branch but I suspect that things will change at some point and not for the better.
10
Our People's Bank in Arabi (Louisiana) was acquired twice, then ultimately became J.P. Morgan Chase around 2000. I was pleased - and fortunate - that after the 2005 federal levee breaches, the bank tracked me down in suburban Memphis to come fetch my box in Jefferson Parish. (This was before I would ever commit to a mobile telephone.)
My box contained mostly important papers and some not-so-valuable jewelry I inherited from my dad. Chase treated me right, but I never again contracted with a bank for the service. I still have and use the single box, which I easily grab any time an evacuation is necessary.
Thanks so much for this enlightening article.
7
Two years ago, I had an incredible experience at the main branch of Wells Fargo in Sarasota, FL. After having a free small vault draw for many years at the branch in which I kept paper deeds, I went to get the deeds and was told I did not have a drawer in their vault. I showed them my key to the vault and threatened to call the police. They finally found my draw but then insisted I pay for a year in advance even though I still qualified for a free draw. They insisted on a year’s payment before they would let me have access to my draw even though I told them I was closing my account. After much arguing, they let me have the contents of my draw and I closed all my accounts with Wells Fargo.
43
Good decision to cease doing business with Wells Fargo.
10
@Irwin Srob - You should have called the police and told you them were being robbed...by a bank. :)
3
Very disappointing ☹️
FWIW, I think safe in "safe deposit box" comes the box typically being kept in a safe.
7
Re: home safes- some, especially the fireproof ones, have a tendency to get mildew or mold inside them as they have no air circulation (a safe deposit box is not airtight and does have some, and is in a climate controlled vault). We found this out the hard way, when my husband discovered some US proof set coins we had stored in it, and some papers were all molded up after the box had not been opened for a while. If you get one, be sure to open it frequently to allow for air circulation. We don't use it for his collection anymore.
23
A few years ago our safe deposit box was de-linked from automatic payments, probably a bank error when we applied for a new home equity line. This was clearly not an action we could have taken ourselves. Not knowing this, when I went to the bank to remove one of the items, I was told that I didn't have a safe deposit box. The banker noted that I had a key and eventually followed through to investigate the matter. It took several days and, in the interim, the bank officer who had helped with the home equity line of credit did not return my calls. The bank no longer used signature cards for gaining access to safe deposit boxes, which would have been hard evidence of my ownership of the safe deposit box--another unfortunate wrinkle related to reliance on computer data bases. I had rented this same box for over 30 years and had come to depend on it. It was going to be emptied for non-payment within a matter of days, WITHOUT NOTIFICATION!!! Needless to say, I have emptied the box of the most important items. Thank you for this helpful and informative article.
25
I found this article fascinating. But there was no suggestion as to where the missing items in so many of these cases might have gone. I'm left assuming fraud and theft must be widespread amongst bank employees after having read your article. Do safe-deposit vaults not have CCTV? And did you ever learn anything in the course of your research about the bank's understanding of where these missing items ended up and who might have taken them? Surely such valuable and unusual pieces such as poor Mr. Poniz's "singing bird" watch would draw attention if they were ever sold at auction? Seems like a great case for a private (or insurance) investigator Again, great piece.
31
The silver lining to this excellent research is that there is a business opportunity for someone to offer the public genuine security with a safe deposit box service and insurance against loss. You would have to charge more than the banks because of the risk you are taking on, but you could probably snap up all of the safe deposit box business if the banks did not respond with a better service of their own.
10
They won’t be offering it at $250/year, unlimited liability or ability to get fee waived based on other financial relationships. Yes, non-bank people already offer these services.
2
This article only emphasizes the need for anyone possessing valuables to have them appraised and photographed, and then properly insured. Where those articles are stored is also important and relevant to their security, so any owner should have impartial witnesses as to the existence of the articles and their place of secure storage. This would have saved a lot of grief for Mr. Poniz. And, if he worked for Sotheby's, he must have known about these procedures; why didn't he follow them?
6
@JKing, The cost to insure rare, irreplaceable items is astronomical, even when in a bank vault. Also, the insurance companies would not accept an appraisal by the owner, even if he/she was THE expert on the items.
3
Ten years ago I considered renting a box in a bank vault to store some documents. After doing research, I decided to scan them and store them on an internet server. It’s far cheaper, even counting the price of the scanner gadget. And now I know it’s safer. I don’t have any old watches or bars of platinum lying around, though.
Check out a service called Glacier. To retrieve documents takes about six hours from when you ask for them. Only a determined thief could steal my late father’s will. And, I don’t run the risk of a bank changing how it does business and losing those documents.
1
After burglars had rifled safe deposit boxes at a Laguna Niguel, Californial branch in the 1990s, Aetna Casualty & Surety (now Travelers ) developed a policy that customers could purchase for $1,00 per thousand of coverage. Don't know if this coverage is still being sold. Only customer knows contents and value of what is in the box.
I learned that safe deposit boxes were not "safe" after the September 11 attacks, when almost everything in the boxes at Chase Bank in the World Trade Center were incinerated. This was devastating and mostly an emotional loss for me. I understand Chase tried hard to provide fair monetary compensation for the losses.
4
Great article. Before this article, I had been contemplating putting some rare items in a safe deposit box. It seems as though the risk are too high and it seems the bank through arbitration and other delay tactics, can swindle their way out of negligence. Thank you Stacey
19
Should be covered by homeowners insurance if the items are properly itemized, inventoried and placed on a rider.
4
It’s odd to me that each bank’s own insurance doesn’t cover safe deposit box,
5
My Chase branch closed last year and I retrieved the contents of my safe deposit box in time. I have yet to open another and doubt that I will after being enlightened by this article...
5
We need to extend the stand-your-ground defense to these cases. Only then would things change.
5
I can’t believe this article appeared today as I just found out that Bank of America has “lost” my safety deposit box. As you write, we think that safety deposit boxes are “safe” and the onus is on the customer to replace those documents. I am numb.
20
I am so sorry this is happening to you.
2
Australia has an "unfair dealing" clause in contracts. Regardless of what corporations slip into the tiny little print in their updated contracts, if the case comes to court and the judge thinks it's unfair, it doesn't hold.
Our safe deposit box of over 30 years was relocated when the most secure looking hometown flagship branch of the biggest bank in America was closed down. Working overseas, and after hours on the phone, the contents were collected into a brown envelope, and shipped to another branch of our choice. On the first visit, the staff couldn't locate our new box in their own vault. The numbered boxes were out of sync.
The fine print gets smaller every year! It's mailed with the annual fee rise, but it needs to be printed LARGER every year...not smaller, tied to when the box was originally rented.
US Corporations need to be reigned in by a "Do No Harm" clause applied across the board in all sectors. Our trust in them is continuously misplaced.
It should start with the insurance companies and any and everyone claiming to be in the "Health Care" Industry.
See today's story about trusted pharmaceutical companies and drug stores that flooded the US with opiates. Spoiler alert: Pharma managers' pay is tied to sales, and low paid untrained shelf stockers at the local drug store were tasked with reporting high volume deliveries to the DEA. It saved money when no one was rigorously trained to do that job. The DEA obviously
needs to put their own staff in there.
18
you can not take customers word for it regarding contents of a safety deposit box. They can say anything. if your keeping millions in a deposit box than you should have multiple storage boxes in different locations just in case of theft, floods etc. also valuables should be filmed being placed in deposit boxes. Smart phones make this easier
4
We had unbelievably bad experiences dealing with Wells Fargo. They tormented us and when we tried to move our fund to another firm they declined the transfer close to 20 times for made up reasons. (ie, wrong number of shares of certain securities, account accidentally shut down, etc). The Wells Fargo rep would laugh at my frustration. We had to wire some money out and he told us there was no problem. When it came to wiring it didn't go thru and forced us to sell stocks at the other firm to meet a margin call. It is about 5 years later and they still have close to 200k of our money. Refusing to close out a position and actually telling other brokerage firms not to help us. There are other details to their behavior that are even worse.
16
I guess I don't understand what's going on here. These 'poor' people have valuables more expensive than the average house, yet don't carry any insurance or documentation other than, "Oh, I remember it was like this . . ". Huh? Sorry, but if they're putting things so valuable in a safe deposit box with little or documentation/insurance, it leads me to believe a lot of these pieces were not obtain legally.
8
This from an old, retired bank worker. A lot of things should be noted and discussed in the article that aren't. One is that safe deposit boxes aren't really part of any bank's business model. They're a (reluctant) convenience for customers, not at all a "profit center". Secondly, $10 million in watches and other jewelry is "exotica". There's a lot of difference between wholesale and retail and whatever other valuation someone might put on this stuff. No renter of a safe deposit box would or should want to be on the hook for what a customer said this stuff is worth and this is not banking business in the ordinary course. And yes, stop beating up on Wells Fargo just because you can.
7
@Dennis
Well Fargo deserves to be beat on. I had so many problems with them 35 years ago that I will never bank there again. Checks that were incorrectly coded, funds held for long periods so they could use the float. They opened fraudulent accounts for customers who didn't want them and double tracked mortgages. Their top management belongs in jail.
16
@Dennis - You're defending Wells Fargo? Why?
7
@Dennis, at one time, Wells Fargo was an excellent institution. My grandfather banked there and it was customer service oriented.
Unfortunately, those days were long ago and many people have been victimized by the unethical practices that have followed in the last twenty years or more, including forcing people to pay for unnecessary insurance with Wells car loans, opening multiple accounts in customer names without their permission or knowledge, and their lack of follow up to home owners loans during the mortgage crisis that caused many to lose their homes.
Twenty years ago, I found myself with a WF account after my small bank was bought out by Wells. The terms of my account changed and money was moved from my savings to checking account without my permission.
At one point, I was convinced to open a “free” line of credit. A year later, I was getting charged for it. I went to the bank in person and asked to close it. I didn’t need nor could afford it. As easy as it was to open, closing it was impossible. The tellers and managers told me I had to contact the corporate office, they could not do it themselves despite being employees of the bank. I ended up doing it myself, in the branch, on their phone with no assistance from the staff. It took me almost an hour to get it done.
Afterwards, I closed my checking account, after leaving it dormant for a year, and they asked why. Their policies put profits above everything. Especially their customers. Still do.
3
Interesting article, but certainly not surprising. I've seen and experienced some rather frightening behavior by banks, including relocation of safe deposit boxes.
One experience particularly stands out in my memory. As the newly elected treasurer of a professional association, I went to the bank to check on the accounts, and was told that I could not see them because my signature and name had not been given to them by the manager of the association. Some time later, I found out that this same manager, who did not have signatory rights over the association's finances, had transferred all funds out of another association account and put it into a bank under her own name! How and why the bank let her do that, I have no idea to this day. And that wasn't the only time I experienced money being withdrawn from a bank account by an unauthorized person. And even with legal help, never had the money refunded, nor the bank accepting responsibility for their mistake.
12
It should be illegal for corrupt judges to reduce punitive damages awards that come from juries.
20
It is already illegal for corrupt judges to do anything. Other judges retain full authority to adjust damages because, while the collective will of peers regarding guilt or innocence is time tested, those same peers are dumber than a bag of wrenches when it comes to financial damages.
The little guy ALWAYS loses... until some political party finds it worthwhile to help little guys. Republicans are hopeless. Most Democrats are close to hopeless. But in my lifetime it has gotten worse and worse. Good reporting here. Now what?
13
How was Mr. Poniz able to even access box 105? When the bank drilled the unit to empty it, a new lock had to have been installed, and Mr. Poniz's old key would not fit the new lock.
2
I just spent a few weeks in Italy where I was informed the average Italian does not trust any bank and therefore doesn’t keep too much money in them. Basically, there’s a lot of tin cans in the tomato gardens and mattresses full of euros. Who knew that maybe we should be doing the same thing!
4
So we have just another example of why banks do not have our best interest at heart. I am sorely shocked and amazed. We should READ the contract, I'm getting my valuables our tomorrow, tax free fees or not. Arbitration is nothing but a bad joke foisted on us by corporations. Why would you put your valuables in the hands of incompetents who can't keep basic records or protect treasures from what appears to be obvious employee theft? Better to buy a secure safe and bury it in your own basement floor I guess.
6
The conditions in the Banks of India are not different. If you lose, you lost and Bank feigns responsibility. So whether it is not necessary to remove Safe deposit vault to deposit vault??
Having my home burglarized three times and haggling with my home owners policy each time I definitely see the value of a safety deposit box for small expensive items. I knew insurance companies and storage lockers are cut-throat robbers but never suspected the banks were too. Wow!
23
I have relied on a safe deposit box in a bank in my are for a very long time. My concern about keeping important documents at home is fire. As far as insured valuables go, a home safe equipped with a gun firing at a burglar opening the safe was ruled illegal some years ago in a court case in Iowa(?).
5
Thanks to the internet, banks already have or can easily secure access to a great deal of personal information about me whenever they desire to. The only thing they don't have and never will get are my old love letters, and that is because they are safely stored away under my bed in Macanudo cigar boxes which are guarded night and day by Kota the Wonder Dog in the picture here.
Macanudos are world-renowned for their savory flavor, consistency and smoothness. If you are looking for top-level security protection for your valuables and most important secrets that no Russian agent will ever be able to penetrate -- together with a great smoke rolled by hand in the Dominican Republic incorporating tobacco from the rich farmlands of the San Andres Tuxtla Valley of Mexico -- I heartily recommend their cigar boxes.
12
@A. Stanton
Love your comment, and your dog seems, (from the photo) to have the kind of disposition that would melt a burglars heart, so I imagine your old love letters are safe.
1
My Wells Fargo "safety deposit box" was drilled open by the bank for non-payment of rental fees while I was abroad. I had notified the bank of my new address and received regular checking and savings account statements. Wells Fargo later claimed that the box account was separate from the others and required a separate change of address filing; thus they were unable to contact me about the unpaid rental fees.
16
My experience was similar to what you’ve described. I had a safe deposit box, checking account and savings account all at US Bank in downtown Seattle. When I moved to a new apartment, I notified the bank. Unbeknownst to me, the checking and savings computer system didn’t include the safe deposit boxes. Those were still on an antiquated manual system. I began receiving my bank statements at my new address, so I had no idea that anything was amiss. Apparently, they had been sending invoices for the safe deposit box to my old address, which I never received. When I went to collect the contents of the box about a year later, it had been drilled and was empty. They were not able to produce the contents. In my case, it was my passport and birth certificate, which is not a good combination to lose. I was livid, filed a police report, but was told that nothing could be done. I will never again put anything in a bank’s safe deposit box.
29
Did you file a change with the USPS? Since this story is also about solutions, that is a good way not to miss bills to old address.
8
@Michael Blazin Those only last one calendar year now. You have to resubmit it each year, preferably at your original central PO. Then check the state list of lost funds every year too. I speak from experience. Big check.
3
Keep your valuables in a menstrual pad box. No thief will ever look in there.
41
Cat burglars will.
1
You got to love capitalism.....a scammers dream.
10
What exactly does this have to do with capitalism?
4
@Kevin
Truest words ever spoken.
1
I am stunned about that idiocy of the banks!
When I rented my safe at our local bank last year I found out by asking if the contents were insured or not. They told me they were not. Well I thought that breaking into a bank, into a vault is somewhat unlikely and felt okay with that situation. But that the banks themselves can mess up the safe business in such an idiotic way is mind blowing! And then not be held responsible for the loss, problems they caused - in a way that is robbery - ... is typical: too big to fail, too big to admit a mistake!
22
Well, this is just so, so wrong.
Mr. Poniz, you have my shared indignation and anger.
How DARE they -- especially Wells Fargo -- abuse and steal from their customers?
And how DARE they fight it in court for years and years.
Oh, wait, I forgot, that's now the American way. The Trump way.
Deny, deflect and worm your way out if at all possible.
I weep for this nation.
45
@jazz one
I stopped weeping, and am now extraordinarily diligent and nearly bereft of trust.
1
Nobody should put any money in Wells Fargo. They have proven themselves to be criminals time and time again.
41
True story. 1982 Denver. Company called Swiss Vaults was burglarized at night. Private safe deposit box company. Advertising said it was as secure as Fort Knox. Better than banks. Better, nobody but you knew what you had in your box. Your identity was a secret. Divorcing wives and their lawyers didn’t know. The DEA and IRS didn’t. All anonymous. People stashed everything of value in these boxes. One morning, the guards opened the place with all the contents of hundreds of boxes gone. Cash. Jewelry. Documents. Compromising photos. But the stashed cocaine was thrown everywhere like it was bakery flour. Who did it? I have a theory.
17
Another Wells Fargo debacle.... I will never ever do business with them...
26
@Blue Skies
A relative once worked for them; the stories I heard, before the exposures, were shocking; similar and worse frauds occur at several major banks ...
9
Here's hoping the missing watches turn up at auction or someplace where they will be noticed and confiscated for return.
22
Yet another instance of Wells Fargo ripping off its customers. Seriously, why does anyone bank there anymore??
25
Still perplexed as to why anyone still uses Wells Fargo as their bank.
26
This adds another reason for my increasing belief that, unless you are filthy rich - in which case you either won’t worry about losing a few millions, or can pay for the extra security - the rest of us are best left to own as few material valuables as possible (other than what you can easily carry with you in times of extreme crises), and hope cash remains relatively safe in you bank’s account and your monetary system won’t crash. The more possessions I have (and they’re limited compared to what most Americans have), the more headaches, whether in maintenance or worries about loss.
14
I had an account with Wells Fargo and loved it (great service, etc.). However after finding out how involved they are in the NRA/gun industry, combined with all of the scandals of setting up false accounts, I moved my money to another bank. I am much less satisfied with the customer service of my new bank, but reading this article reinforced the fact that did the right thing!
20
It’s not entirely clear to me why owners of safe deposit boxes do not insure their contents. My safe deposit box is listed as an additional location to the coverage I carry for my home and business. There are quite possibly other instances where loss or damage occurs not because of the bank’s negligence but because of natural disasters or fire.
20
I always remember the Jessie Royce Landis line from To Catch a Thief: “I’m insured. It is just jewelry. What do I care. That’s their problem.”
Don’t be stupid. Get insurance and sleep the sleep of the righteous.
1
I had someone once tell me that Banks were a necessary evil. My reply was, no, they are not necessary. They -- like much of "economy" and the financial world -- have simply been made 'necessary' so some people can become very, very rich.
So, indeed, banks are evil. They just aren't (really) necessary.
12
Banks seem to be central to the economy. How could we have a modern advanced society without banks?
3
@Alex
*scrolls through list of Amazon's future projects*
All these instances resulted from clear negligence by the banks, and their employees. This was not some unpredictable natural disaster. On a second note, I am surprised how come people are keep doing business with Wells Fargo, I wouldn’t trust them with with handling my kids school lunch account.
27
Kudos for not using the term "safety deposit box".
3
I handled an estate for a relative who kept her safety deposit box key in her handbag. She had held onto the same box for decades, and had even paid a small fee for keeping it active. One would think, therefore, that something she cared about was held in the box. But it was empty! Am I to sure that the comments had been removed by the bank? I’ll never know.
17
I think my iPad sneezed while I was typing. That was supposed to say “am I to assume the contents had been removed.” But I suppose that’s obvious. Anyway, I wanted to add the suggestion that along with that updated will or living trust you all have set aside in a logical place (of course you do!), consider including a list of what is in your safety deposit box(es). Or what should be there. Maybe even append a photograph. Make it easy for your executor.
19
I had the same thought about a similar circumstance.....
3
I had a safe deposit box at a Chase branch for several years, and paid the bills for each year regularly. When I finally went to close out the account and empty the box, the clerk told me they didn't have any record that I was still paying for it, and in another month they would have drilled the lock and emptied the box. He had no problem though with letting me take the contents and surrender the keys. We had important papers, jewelry, and other items in there. Scary.
32
This is eerily similar to problems with an estate probate we are going through. We were supposed to get certain pieces, the probate people from the trust bank sent some wrong items. When we asked for them to be sent, they couldn’t find them! We got the auction sold list to see if it was sold by accident- it wasn’t listed. Neither was a living room sofa, a dresser, some mirrors and several silver bowls. We can’t get an answer from the bank. How do you lose these things? This is in Pennsylvania , I think their legislators need to fix the probate process and make it more transparent. We never would have found out about any of this if the movers hadn’t sent the wrong items. How many people has this happened to without them knowing? What a disgrace, you get charged a huge fee for managing the estate, and they lose stuff.
18
"What drives banks’ conduct is regulatory oversight, and none of the regulators pay any attention to safe deposit boxes. This just falls through the cracks. If the banks do something inappropriate, it’s very hard for customers to get any sort of relief.”
And there it is, ladies and gentlemen. The most basic and direct explanation of why "industry self-regulation" and "market pressures" are a poor substitute for strong government oversight.
93
There are companies that specialize in storing high value items like art, antiques, and other things. ARCIS just opened a facility in Harlem that is super secure and as an added benefit is technically not even in the USA since it is a Freeport.
Companies like that may be closest thing you will get to Bourn Identity service, but not cheap.
There are other les expensive companies where secure storage is their only business and not a loss leader, like it is for banks.
6
"In 1998, Mr. Poniz rented several additional boxes, and stored in them various items related to his work. He separated a batch of personal effects — photographs, coins he had inherited from his grandfather, dozens of watches — into a box labeled 105. Every time he opened it, he saw the glinting accumulation of his life’s work.
Then, on April 7, 2014, he lifted the thin metal lid. Box 105 was empty."
Something in the story does not sound right. If the Box 105 was opened with a drill and its content sent away to another location - how come Mr. Poniz was able to even open the box. Was the box left opened? Then he would be already suspicious that something was wrong before he would be able to lift the metal lid something that was unlocked? If the box had a new lock, then Mr Poniz would not be able to open it with his second key. Am I the only one missing something?
19
Maybe both boxes numbered 105 had the same lock & key...?
1
@Ellen I have the same situation except one is 105 and the other 105 b. Every time I go in no one can find my box which may or may not be a good thing. Looking at safes but have no place to bolt them down. Where are people bolting them?
@Liberal N. Proud
...But he knew where was his 105 box located - he claims that he opened and examined his 105 box that was located at the bottom of a wall with boxes. If a bank kept a copy of his key, this means that the second key that he kept and needed to securely open his box was not unique and bank could easily make a copy - then why to bother with drilling any box in an absence of box owner's key. The other scenario that they moved the second 105 box to the location of Mr Poniz's 105 box, and both boxes had the same second/owner's key - then Mr Poniz would encounter the other person's content. Either the article lacks details or the the story told by Mr Poniz is not consistent.
Isn't the correct solution here for the banks to charge these customers a price that justifies the costs related to the safest care of the contents of the box, that the box is insured by the banks, and that the box holder allows the bank to take inventory of the box each time it is closed? The idea that the bank is responsible for contents of a box that sits in its vault when they have no idea what is in there seems broken. If you want insurance, you have to tell the bank what you are insuring. Also, the price that customers are charged do not adequately compensate the bank for the cost of securing, insuring, and managing the safety of the contents.
8
If you have items stored in a safe deposit box at your bank, please retrieve them as quickly as possible. These stories of bank malfeasance are not uncommon, and you should not assume that your items are safe until they are in your hands.
24
Same thing happened to me Bank Of America a couple years ago. The entire metal box was gone. I already knew it had to be employee theft, because they were still doing manual entry and exit records, and had twO Blindspots Within the vault where people can view their contents privately. I was treated terribly, the burden was on me for everything, settling was obscenely one sided, forced to sign and NDA, and sent a 1099 the following year.
20
Shocking and bravo to the Times for publishing this article!!
While many responses justly condemn Wells Fargo, it is crystal clear from the article that this problem is common to most, if not all banks, and not in any way limited to Wells Fargo.
15
I think this was in the 70's. My father went to the bank to get our safe deposit box. He was given it and when he went into the privacy booth and opened it, he discovered it was not our box.
He gave it back to the bank person and pointed out the error and was given the correct box. When it went to tell bank personnel about this error, he was told this was impossible.
15
Great story, very eye-opening. Thank you, Stacy Cowley.
19
Welcome to the free market - that corporations are free to rip the individual off.
25
Just when you think banks can't get any scummier they deliver an out of the park home run like this. When I saw the headline I knew Wells Fargo had to be connected to this story. Please help me understand why anyone would do business with Wells Fargo. There are plenty of other banks to pick from though most are fleecing their customers.
21
another scam perpetrated by the esteemed banking industry
19
For god’s sake, it’s Wells Fargo, the greatest collective of banking idiots, incompetents, and crooks in the US. No one with any knowledge of banking should have anything to do with them.
35
This story is symptomatic of how the US works. Renting a safe deposit box should be pretty much straight forward but somehow it isn't.
28
For those who are thinking of fireproof document boxes: They are not 100% fireproof. My parents-in-law lived in the Berkeley Hills at the time of the firestorm there. They kept all their important documents in the best "fireproof" box they could find, in the house. There were zero official warnings or evacuations before the fire. My mother-in-law saw the flames only a few minutes before they reached the house. She did not have time to take the box or anything else. Especially as she also had to rescue her elderly, ill mother-in-law who lived nearby. They got out alive. But when my brother-in-law went to the house (after evading the safety blockade around the neighborhood) and dug into the area within the foundations, the only recoverable item was a clay figurine he had made in high school. He had not fired it in a kiln at the time, but the Berkeley/Oakland Hills fire did the job. All the metal had melted--plumbing pipes, the cars parked in front of the house, and of course, the safety deposit box. Yes, this was an intense fire but such extreme weather events have become sadly common.
23
Had a very similar experience to one mentioned in the article, involving a Wells Fargo branch in California. I paid my annual box rent faithfully, but after not visiting my box for two years, found that for some reason my key did not work. It was arranged to drill open the box and it was empty. After I went ballistic, an employee emerged with a plastic bag of items “from a previously drilled box”. It was my stuff. No explanation why they drilled my paid for box. They promised a refund, but never came through. Comically, after I moved out of state, they sent me letters for literally years telling me to pay my box rent or else my box would be drilled. Classic incompetence.
97
What seems to be missing here is prosecution of the massive crimes that have clearly taken place within these banks. it should not be difficult to determine which employees or contractors handled the missing goods in the boxes. Perhaps if some people went to jail for this kind of thing, it would deter these crimes. This story says a lot about the corporate cultures of Wells Fargo and Bank of America. I wonder why one would do business with a bank that allows massive thefts to take place and then shirks responsibility.
32
Anyone who puts $20 million of valuables in care of a stranger should at least ask the question of who will insure against loss. Forget the exceptional blunder here, what would happen in the event of fire, flood, or tornado? The bank doesn’t even know why’s in the box, how on earth do you come to expect them to indemnity you? It’s a ludicrous assumption. Stop scolding the banks for the customers error.
One point that I’d like to make here is that in NY, a safe deposit box is sealed on the death of any signatory. The only one who can open the box is a court appointed executor. So at the very least, it’s a terrible place to put a last will and testament. And if the co-signers aren’t spouses, then the survivors had better be able to establish sole ownership of anything in the box, or the estate has an equal claim to their stuff.
11
I lost my 2 precious gold bracelets(a wedding gift from my Dad) back early 2000, those jewelry were in the safety box since 1985 with Wells Fargo bank(was Wachovia), the bank has been relocated once. Everything else were still there except those 2 beautiful bracelets. I reported the incident to the local bank branch, they told me they could not do anything because I have no proof or picture for the items I lost. I have lost the confidence with the bank since. I will never do any business with this bank.
20
Banks are criminal organizations—something which came painfully obvious in 2008—supported by the government (which is a corporatocracy). Remember when you could open a savings account and earn itty, bitty interest? Now, if you open a savings account at WF, they charge you a fee for the courtesy while they use your money to make them money.
26
As MacHeath says in "The Threepenny Opera": What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank?
17
How difficult would it be for regulators to regulate safe deposit boxes? Regulators look at every aspect of a bank's operation, so why not look at this small part as well? Is it because the banks don't want the additional scrutiny or is it because the regulators don't want the additional work? Either way, the lack of regulation of safe deposit boxes is a great disservice to customers and does not engender confidence in the bank in general.
16
Do you want to have a public record of the contents? You cannot regulate what you cannot see. Are you willing to submit an appraisal of any non cash items to the IRS? Probably not.
You say that Lianna Saribekyan's security deposit box agreement with Bank of America provides that “the bank’s liability for any loss in connection with the box for whatever reason shall not exceed ten (10) times the annual rent charged for the box.” I would argue that that provision applies only so long as her items remain in the box. Once the bank closed its location and emptied all of the boxes, including Ms. Saribekyan's box, all bets and disclaimers are off.
8
Your argument is based on? "ANY loss in connection with the box for whatever reason" [all caps added] is broad language. There's a reason they hire lawyers to write these contracts.
3
That cap precludes paying for something in there of high value only known to the box renter. Make regular visits to your box and all these problems disappear.
1
I'm glad I read this article. I believed that items in safe deposits were, well, safe. And that if the bank were destroyed in a natural disaster, I'd be fairly compensated. You'd think the bank would take out insurance on items in their boxes.
11
Great article. I was alerted to this issue when I started writing about US expats and financial issues. I was also an international banker for many years and was appalled to learn these boxes don’t really offer protection - also they are subject to some regulations for financial reporting. I closed mine before I left for Asia. Either investigate getting a Private Vault - usually open 24 hours and use biometrics and you can buy additional, real insurance, or invest in a high end safe at home with biometrics and any other bells and whistles you can think of. And yes I did a tour of duty in the safe deposit box room when I was training to be a banker - lots of human error.
26
The obscenity is that in this age of income disparity we are fretting over people who lose 44 loose diamonds in a bank deposit box. I'm having another eat the rich moment. Capitalism - it will only get worse.
5
Well, the loose diamonds just get the media's attention. My takeaway from this article: if banks are that disrespectful and brazen with wealthy people's property, they won't think twice about "losing" my piddling stuff (which is worth a lot to me). It's not about feeling bad for the rich, it's about being forewarned.
31
The bank likely had no knowledge of their status other than a name next to a key list. Since not regulated, boxes do not require Know Your Customer data. Many most customers would prefer it that way. I keep reading in comments about fee bills getting mailed. That tells me these customers have a minimal or no relationship with that bank beyond the box. Banks don’t mail anything in 2019 if they can charge a checking account. I realize many people feel they want to get cheapest deal and shop around. If something is important to you, make sure you are important to the person providing the service. This article shows risks of getting a sometimes priceless service from a large organization that barely knows you. You can store the items at home with risks, in my opinion, 1000 x greater. Or you can get the service from a firm where you do your other business (more important to be broad and frequent than wealthy) or members of your family do.
1
Wells Fargo and the Mafia are both criminal enterprises. The only difference is that Mafia chieftains are sentenced to long prison terms.
26
OMG, I have a safe deposit box at Wells Fargo. I wouldn't give them my money but I thought a safety deposit box was safe.
Thanks for letting me know about this. I will be closing my box there. I hope my stuff is still in there....
29
@sfdphd
After you close your box, what will you do with the valuables? All the banks seem to be about the same in this regard.
1
Joining a credit union gave me some sense of taking action to try to avoid (and avoid rewarding) some of the worst types of financial industry behavior.
9
Credit unions are still the best, although they, too, are becoming more and more greedy and less secure. Further proof America has become a third world.
10
If they want to get out of the safety deposit bank business, this article is going to be a big help.
36
Why anyone does any business with Wells Fargo is beyond me
319
@Jelly
I know someone who went to work for Wells a few years back and I wondered about her judgment in doing that.
14
@Jelly,
Because thanks to the Great Recession, the S&L crisis, as well as the decades of deregulation and dozens of mergers and acquisitions that preceded them, "market consolidation" in the retail banking sector is a very real problem. In some areas--especially small towns in rural or suburban communities--Wells Fargo and its "competitors" often have an effective regional monopoly (or near enough), because they've bought up so many smaller regional banks (like Wachovia and First Union) that only a handful of retail banks are left.
Credit unions are an option, but not everyone qualifies, and some places may not have any at all.
15
Whoa. I had no idea. If you cannot legally sue the bank for the loss, then the bank simply does not need to care if your items are "safe."
14
Banks exist for the officers and stockholders to make money for themselves. All other talk is rhetorical noise. What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine. Period.
16
Though it is heart wrenching to read about individuals who have lost their valuables from safe deposit boxes, I wish the article had provided some perspective. Is it truly safer to leave your valuables at home in a safe than at a bank, as some people have suggested? Airlines regularly make stupid mistakes causing death and injury. It is heart wrenching to read about those who are affected. Still, commercial flying is lot safer than most other type of transport.
8
@Paun Bhartia My heart goes out to the people who lost collector's watches and heirloom jewelry. Sentimental value can never be compensated for. BUT, the bank can certainly provide full insurance for items in boxes, and pay that insurance without dragging the customer around till the customer gives up. If they want inventories of safety deposit boxes, photos of the items, presence of a bank employee or a notary to verify the presence of the items, I am sure most people with valuables would comply. Beats losing ten million dollars.
6
Two solutions: (1) bury your valuables in your backyard. (2) vote Republican, because they will put in regulations and oversight to protect the little guys. OK, I'll admit one of these is a joke.
36
The casual horror that is trump’s America.
8
Not supporting Trump here, but this problem pre-existed that nightmare
6
Capitalism is built on banks.
Banks are rotten to the core.
Any thoughts on the actual condition of capitalism ?
(I am not sure this will win many "Recommend" from US readers)
21
@nestor potkine, The United States is in what is called "late stage capitalism". This entails gross negligence, corruption, lack of ethics and deference to only the shareholders. Inevitably capitalism is unsustainable and will be replaced with some other system. Meanwhile the decline is in acceleration as people lose faith in companies and the government.
It comes down to “operator error” . The security business more organic and messy than counting money. Mistakes will be made , many of them by employees of the bank , and banks are not going to want to underwrite those losses.
2
It is very easy to find out that banks offer no significant insurance for safe boxes: just ask when renting one. My first question was how much it costs, my second question was what insurance coverage comes with that $300/year rental fee. I left after the second question was answered. A clear clue that no insurance is included is that there is no appraisal and monitoring of what you keep in that box. This is not about fine print or about cheating banks that hide basic info, it is about consumers that lack common sense and have unrealistic expectations. Why would you expect insurance for $1/day with no appraisal ? If you want insurance, keep your valuables at home and purchase insurance from your home insurer. It will cost you several percent of the appraisal value every year. Otherwise, get a safe, two Dobermans, and keep a shotgun locked and loaded under your pillow.
7
It reminds me of the bank bailouts during the 2008-09 financial crisis. Apparently "safe" applies to banks' assets, but not to many kind of customer assets, or to the "little people" who participate in the financial system.
13
This situation sounds like a business opportunity for a security company to offer better protections to people who currently use safe deposit boxes. If the banks are providing such shoddy services and won't stand behind damage to their customers, somebody should offer a better product and take away their safe deposit business.
23
I had a safety deposit box with the usual impressive vault, heavy doors, lower level,etc. I kept the usual papers that personal finance types recommend; birth,legal & certain financial records. A full back-up of my then-current hard drive (we live in digital times...) My mother's wedding ring and a few similar personal items. I paid the usual rip-off fees.
A water main burst and I received the brief notice - my box, along with all others, was flooded. Contents irretrievable;all destroyed. Too bad for me.
Nearly five (!) years later I got an angry phone call from "Big Giant Bank." Demanding to know when was I going to pick up my "retrieved items"? If I didn't pick them up within 5 days, they would be "disposed of." No prior notice or letters. Nothing. If I hadn't picked up that call...
Everything had to be picked up between 9am-3pm from some inconvenient place I couldn't get to ( working). Finally,they agreed to send the items FedEx - which arrived about a month later.
I would never waste money on a safe-deposit box. Also, forget scans and back-ups. My backup would have been unreadable as technology had changed, my computer was long gone; company was out of the PC business; the software antique. PLEASE consider that if you feel safe with your online back-up. Currently, I always lose something in transferring or downloading large blocks of data. Paper still has a lot to recommend it.
25
Important note here:. HUMAN ERROR was the real cause of the main subject's story. Zero oversight of bank procedures plus sloppy employees caused this. I have a similar story. The HSBC bank at 26 Broadway was flooded during Sandy. A few months later, I went to visit my safe deposit box...which they had no record of. They had lost ALL of their paper signature cards in the flood, and the rotating cast of kids behind the counter didn't know me from Adam even though I took out the box in 1990. After making lots of Lawyer Noises, I was allowed to visit my box (which I had always paid fees for and still had keys to--funny how banks never forget fees)--as long as I could identify, from memory, the contents and link them to my ID. Luckily I had a copy of my birth certificate in there, but still...a month of haggling and no apologies.
52
@Jen in Astoria I'm so sorry that happened to you -- and if any bank deserved to be out of business, it's that particular branch. Horrible.
5
Why does anyone with millions and millions in valuables not have them insured?
One customer lost $2,500,000 in valuables (she sued altogether for 7.5M) in a $250 kept in a $250 safe deposit box. She paid less than .01% to protect herself.
Why wouldn’t you want to carefully inventory, catalogue, ten insure valuables?
Documents can be much trickier of course; heirlooms even more so.
8
@WorkingGuy Most of us only have a few items of value, say a couple of pieces of heirloom jewelry that have financial as well as sentimental value. The author of the article used huge losses to draw more attention to the problem. But when you read the comments, you realize things like your two gold wedding-present bracelets or your one heirloom watch are equally vulnerable. It seems quite reasonable to me for the bank to provide insurance for items that don't run into the millions. Also, it seems reasonable to me that banks would hire employees who are both competent and honest. Clearly, they don't.
3
The REAL problem is that banks, especially Big Banks, DON'T remain the same and often use corporate takeovers, M&A's and flimflam to change or negate their fiduciary responsibility, (as do many US corporations) and/or silently change their policies and actual features like showy bank-vaults!
Look at top the names on the list of safe-deposit box shenanigans... Wells Fargo, Chase, Bank of America, and Citigroup... The top names atop the "most-wanted" list of Big Bang malefactors, fraudsters, and outright criminality over the last 20 years!
"Too big to fail" and also too big to be punished for their crimes! (Or too politically connected via their lucre to worry about the law the way the "little people" do)
"Over the next few decades, the bank — a squat brick building on a low-rise suburban street — changed hands many times. First National became First Union, which was sold to Wachovia, which was then bought by Wells Fargo. But its vault remained the same.
Banks increasingly regard safe deposit boxes as more of a headache than they’re worth. They’re expensive to build, complicated to maintain and not very lucrative. The four largest American banks — JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Wells Fargo and Citigroup..."
4
Why would anyone bank at the habitually criminal Wells Fargo.
It seems unbelievable there is anyone out there unaware of Wells Fargo repeatedly ripping off it’s customers.
18
It sounds like people should just by a shovel and bury their valuables. At least they'll know where their valuables are and can get to them when they want.
6
@LofColorado As long as your neighbors' teenage kids aren't running drones over your property to see what you are up to in your yard. This will be an increasing problem.
4
There is something inherently wrong with this entire scenario:
"safe" deposit box renters need to be more fearful of bank employees who have keys and access to the customer's boxes than the random theft in the night, tunneling through the ceiling or cellar to garner access to the vault.
What the heck is going on in this country?
10
1/ Bankers are thieves (ok, nothing new there, but truth never suffers from being repeated).
2/ Bankers are thieves (see above)
3/Thank you very much, I did think about using a safe box, but I am now vaccinated.
4/ Bankers are ...???
7
The institutions mentioned, JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Wells Fargo and Citigroup, basically got away with blowing up the economy in 2008 and getting bailed out anyway with free money from the Fed that continues to this day. They've been fined for financial misdeeds by regulators numerous times. A few years back we learned Wells Fargo directly defrauded clients. You think these guys are going to worry about your $200 a year safe deposit box? Banks used to be citadels of trust. Anyone who thinks that anymore is sadly a fool.
13
Seems like the banks are saying in some of these cases that even if they are willfully negligent, it's not their problem. I doubt they would put that in bold letters up front in their 20 page agreements.
15
If I have learned one thing from Antiques Roadshow it is insure rare items. Banks should offer insurance for items in safe deposit boxes. Clearly the higher the value the higher the cost.
As for the Wells Fargo case, that is gross negligence. It should take three managers to certify in blood (or smart card) that the box they are about to evict is the correct one. Intentional false certification should be a high level felony with a mandatory minimum of 15 years in jail. If the bank knew and did nothing they should have to pay for all the jail and court/lawyer costs for everyone involved.
13
@Sutter
1) Try to find 3 managers or 'senior' bankers at any average local branch.
2) And if they are there ... only one has been there more than 10 minutes.
Banks are such revolving -- and shrinking -- doors. I cherish our current bank manager -- accountable, accessible and cheerful -- and tell her so. Know she won't stay around forever, but for now, am grateful.
4
It's best to remember that all commercial transactions are about dollars and cents to corporations. Boeing's behavior in the 737 Max should be a timely reminder that even human lives are just a business decision. At least in the safe-deposit box cases, no lives were lost. And the reality is if the valuables were stored at home, their odds of being stolen or burglarized are likely higher.
For items valued in the millions, it's probably best to take out a private insurance on them and store them at a high-cost but high-qualify facility. I don't know of any myself, but I'm sure these exist precisely because the big box banks aren't reliable enough.
6
Approximately one year ago, my bank (BBT) sent me a letter suggesting that I buy insurance for the contents of my safe deposit box.
If a thief broke in the bank would not have any information about what was in the box.
However, when the bank is the thief, it sounds too much like organized crime.
23
"Banks increasingly regard safe deposit boxes as more of a headache than they’re worth. They’re expensive to build, complicated to maintain and not very lucrative."
That's ridiculous. The people who use safe deposit boxes are the people with assets. If someone has a safe deposit box at a bank, she's likely to keep her money at the bank. It's irrelevant whether the boxes themselves make money.
16
You are expecting the banks to provide a service to their high end clients that hurts the banks margins ?
6
Will Wirecutter give us some recommendations on at home fireproof safes?
43
People are picking on Wells Fargo in the comments partly because of their scandals the past few years (I'm no fan either). As mentioned in the article, the issues is not specific to WF. All banks seem to avoid liability for items stolen from safe deposit boxes. I also doubt credit unions are any different in this regard.
6
Yet another banking scandal because of poor process and no oversight. I would not bank with Wells Fargo. Only boycotts will result in some action short of regulation. Perhaps it's time to reregulated since most banks are not customer oriented.
5
A gross appropriation of goods by corporate greed. "Safe Deposit" - a misnomer first and treachery to the last.
Banks are/have been/will be repositories of a protected class to the from the Rothschilds to Bitcoins. (so far)
3
Thank you for sharing this info NYT. Good to know.
18
Two lessons. All security and safety measures are relative. Nothing is 100%. Second, if insurance is available and items vaueable buy the insurance.
2
Wow. This story is on TV as I'm typing this!! So alarming...I had no idea there was such a level of risk. Thank you NYT for the heads up.
249
I wish the article stated that one could purchase a rider in their rental/home insurance policies to cover their safe deposit boxes.
5
These types of contract are almost impossible to read so I'll translate.
If something is good for the customer but bad for the bank the contract strictly forbids it.
27
Hmmm.
After reading and re-reading this article, I am beginning to think if I placed all of my personal treasures inside a coffee can and had our son's dog, Albert, bury it along side his cherished pile of old bones in the back yard, that option would be safer than any Wells Fargo bank or any other bank that will not "require banks to compensate customers if their property is stolen or destroyed."
24
I have a hard time understanding why someone would put cash in a safe deposit box unless it was either acquired under dubious circumstances or needed to be hidden from the IRS.
4
@Mind boggling
If someone sells an item for cash or brings cash that is perfectly legally theirs from another country (while following the rules of declaration at the border), the act of putting that cash in the bank still raises a flag at the bank. Where did the money come from? Why should someone have to explain to the government/IRS how they acquired cash that belongs to them?
Putting cash in the box prevents that attention. It also makes it harder for some thief to steal it if they happen to hack your bank account/ATM card.
5
The article mentions the loss of “rare” currency .
3
@Mind boggling Could be a rare coin collection, or kruggerands someone bought as an investment.
1
This sort of thing is why I ditched US Bank years ago for a local credit union. Never regretted that decision. These large national banks simply can't be trusted.
4
@Bryan
Are the terms of the credit union's safe box rental any different? I would doubt it.
7
If you read the contract for a safe-deposit box you will see that cash should never be stored in the box. The bank does not take responsibility for cash. Also, if someone does not pay their bill for the box over a certain period of time, the bank is required to turn the contents over to the State unclaimed property division of the State Treasury. Everyone should check the list of unclaimed property at least yearly. The valuables that are sometimes overlooked because someone moves or does not respond to mailings, could be checks, contents of safe-deposit boxes, savings accounts, stock certificates, etc.
5
@Lucia
"The bank does not take responsibility for cash."
According to the article, the bank doesn't seem to take responsibility for anything in that box. They will offer a paltry sum (e.g. 10x the rental fee) if they even offer anything at all.
9
It's very amusing that the banks find it a headache. By and large, I have found that safety deposit boxes are sold out and I am unable to get what I want. This tells me the banks are underpricing the service. I would bet they could double or triple the prices and still sell out their inventory.
7
@CA
About 20 years ago I needed a box for a couple of years. At that time, banks required you to have a checking account with them in order to rent a box. The nearest branch with any boxes was 15 miles and that was in a major urban area. And that bank had branches practically on every corner.
Capital One has pretty much done away with the boxes, in favor of cafés. Because I want to go to the bank for a latté and ask Starbucks to store my birth certificate and Social Security card. Some folks live in apartments in old buildings with other tenants who smoke in bed, and the landlord frowns on punching a hole in the wall for a fireproof safe, lol.
This is what unregulated banking and "free market" capitalism look like.
26
What is the solution to this problem? To keep everything at home?
2
@Laurie Dominic The solution is probably to use safe deposit boxes in north-western European countries like the UK, Sweden, Norway, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland, etc, where customers have proper protection when things go wrong.
13
@Andrew S Of course banks don't want that - then they would be held to a higher standard of responsibility for safeguarding what is put into their care.
3
@Laurie Dominic. I am wondering that myself. Anyone...?
No question these customers are getting abused. But if I was keeping millions of dollars of anything in a bank vault (or anywhere else for that matter) I'd sure as heck have insurance on my property. Going without is just foolish and that's what seems to be the case here.
6
@Web This is the difference between European countries and the USA. Consumers have far better protection in European countries. In the USA it's the companies that always win, and the customer gets treated like dirt.
8
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Wells Fargo has given me adequate proof that they are not to be trusted. Of course, you'll have to decide for yourself.
25
There "are no federal laws governing the boxes; no rules require banks to compensate customers if their property is stolen or destroyed."
So in essence, anyone who rents one of the "safe" deposit boxes at a federally secured bank have no rights nor recourse should some bank employee decide to start opening boxes with the supplied bank keys, and revel in a world of untold money, jewelry, and other items of significant value.
Sounds like I have a better chance at my home for security my personal items than any bank in this country.
What the heck is wrong with that picture?
I cannot thank the NYT enough for reporting and running this story.
47
@Marge Keller
Sorry, but it is common knowledge that safe deposit boxes are not insured by any bank. Has always been so.
Banks - the legalized criminal operation of the United States. They break laws with impunity, and why not? Look at Wells Fargo. Caught dozens of time, and nobody ever goes to jail, let alone admit wrong doing. At least here, the banks don't appear to be breaking laws, because the laws don't exist. But even if there were laws protecting people who store valuables in safe deposit boxes at banks, the banks would just break those laws too.
29
Mr. Poniz has legitimate complaints, as there are many aspects to his story that are verifiable. However, there is a problem with making banks pay you for what you say was once in safe deposit box and then "disappeared." Many people like safety deposit boxes because you can put whatever you want into the box and no one else knows what is inside - it can be totally secret. So how do you prove the box contained what you say it did? The potential for people to take advantage of an institution having to take their word on its contents is enormous.
5
@Lauren F It says in the story that there was a list made when the box was emptied and put into storage, and a list made when it was brought out of storage, and those two lists don't match. They're both the bank's lists. That seems pretty clear-cut.
36
@Lauren F There was an inventory taken when the bank opened the box. They also did not follow the rules that were in place. This man should have recovered his losses without having to go to court.
28
Used to be at Wells Fargo. Left for a credit union. Asked for a car loan at dealer, said I’d take higher interest to avoid them. Glad I did.
8
Wells Fargo pats their customers on their backs with one hand,
and picks their pockets with the other.
25
Wells Fargo - One of the worst banks in the world
New Jersey - One of the most corrupt states in the country, infested with immoral people.
A witches brew able to blow up on any appropriate occasion
8
Maybe you are better off with a fireproof safe in your home.
1
The best, the very best movie, on safety deposit box heists is the film, The Hot Rock. Every time I see this movie I am overwhelmed with laughter and amazed at the comic genius of Donald Westlake. Enjoy.
4
Really?!?
Do they make fireproof mattresses?
2
Wells Fargo is a criminal racketeering organization.
10
"the bank changed hands many times"..... THIS is why the US banking system is chaotic and undependable: it is a fierce, competative and very crowded market where odd things can and DO happen. Not saying this is neccessarily bad, but in Canada we have like, a half dozen major banks which are tightly regulated and together control about 95% of the market.... and almost nobody complains about this very stable situation at all. Banks never change hands - a bank building owned by the Bank of Montreal is not going to be sold to the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce.... never. Just another of the little perks of living in Soviet Canukistan, lol. If the Trumpster wins the 2020 election, come on up to our little socialist semi-paradise: you are ALLLLLL welcome!!!
19
@Joseph Ross Mayhew - Actually, we are NOT welcome. Canada strictly controls immigration. It wants healthy, not-too-old, highly skilled workers. Even retirees with $$$$ are not eligible, unless they agree to start a business. Yeah, we already looked: some 200 of my in-laws are residents of British Columbia.
13
Shocking information!
2
Duh. Double six figure income here, WE use a Credit Union, for ALL our
" banking " needs. It's affiliated with the Engineer Husbands Job/Union, and really does work for the customers, ALL of them. We have a safe deposit box there, and have never had any problems. I especially like that they give loans and provide services to ALL members, from new hires on the assembly line, to senior Engineers. I will never use a Bank, they nickel and dime you to death and make an art form of negligence and outright fraud. Seriously.
11
In the 19th century people robbed banks. Ever since then, Banks have been robbing people.
48
@Sipa111
Brilliant.
2
@Sipa111: Please. Not "ever since" ... unless you go back to, for instance, the very first bank that was invented, which must've been circa 10,000 BCE.
@Sandy That was probably a grain storage building.
The first mistake was doing business with Wells Fargo. They have been fined
$ Millions multiple times for stealing from their customers. Their actions have proven them to be a crooked bank. I know it won't happen in this administration, but Wells Fargo should be shutdown and their entire C Suite thrown in jail for their proven actions.
13
I find it very odd that this article completely forgot to mention the fact that law enforcement (e.g., DHS) can search and seize safe deposit box contents without a warrant and without notice (as long as a bank official has oversight; and questionable secret FISA panel ruling(s) approve, but how would one know about it?). The lessors of the safe deposit box must be identified and accounts tracked by the bank and given to the authorities upon request...you know...to prevent terrorism. This was courtesy of the Patriot Act 1 & 2. The courts can always grant access a safety deposit box contnents via a Notice of Levy in order to satisfy a ruling or verdict. In short, safe deposit boxes aren't as safe as you think. Why pay criminal bankers (yes, you Wells Fargo and BofA) who really don't care or even want to provide a storage service to watch your stuff? Insure it, and put it in a fire safe at home.
13
@Patrick: nice idea, but you can't insure items like savings bonds.
2
Chase Manhattan Bank just sent it's clients a letter that if you do not object by your own letter writing back to them any dispute with Chase goes into arbitration and by not writing them with each and every acct number at your Chase bank by mid August you give up your rights to sue them w/o enforced arbitration you also give up your right to be in any part of a class action lawsuit against Chase...big guys after we little guys...especially those who do not read dated notices from one's bank or other financial institution.
211
@Carlyle T. I'm a Chase client and I got that letter. I made sure to send back a signed & tracked letter opting out of arbitration. Here's my colleague Emily Flitter's story about what Chase is doing: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/business/jpmorgan-chase-credit-card-arbitration.html
87
@Carlyle T. I am a Chase "paper-free" customer, so I didn't get any letter to send back. Even more devious.
38
@Stacy Cowley Here's my question, can I write such a letter to a business telling them that if they do not respond within 30 days, they agree to not use arbitration as a remedy? What about if I put a sticker on my credit card saying that accepting it as a form of payment means that the seller agrees to not force arbitration?
48
My lasting memory of this article will be its author's insistence that I watch bank robbery films with her every night for weeks on end. All the better to have the right pop culture example to cite.
47
@David Dyte it was VERY IMPORTANT RESEARCH. Your sacrifices are appreciated ;)
93
And start with The Bank Job, a British gem.
9
@David Dyte dude, it was So funny to read your note and see her response. We appreciate the sacrifice in the name of journalism. Also the nice list some of which I will be watching soon! Thanks gang!!
12
Remarkable that Wells Fargo has any customers at all. Who are they? I would sooner put my money in a paper bag and hand it to some guy in a pool hall for safekeeping.
13
@NorthernVirginia
"I would sooner put my money in a paper bag and hand it to some guy in a pool hall for safekeeping."
Really? WF is still a functioning bank and not everyone that banks with them was affected in their scandals. Inertia is the reason people don't just up and switch banks. Why would someone go through the trouble of opening new accounts, changing their payment plans with creditors, changing their direct deposits, etc. if they were never affected by WF. By the way, WF is not the only bank that has safe deposit issues.
3
@AN wrote: "WF is still a functioning bank and not everyone that banks with them was affected in their scandals."
Sure, as far as you know.
Here's what the NYTimes said about it in March:
"The bank admitted that employees had opened as many as 3.5 million phantom accounts in customers’ names to meet stratospheric sales goals. It also admitted forcing customers to buy unneeded auto insurance and charging improper mortgage fees."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/business/wells-fargo-sales-culture.html
They make the Bankers Trust scandal(s) look tame by comparison.
Buy a fire-resistant safe at Costco or BJ's and keep everything at home.
For a long time, if the IRS put a lien on your bank account, you couldn't access your safe deposit box. Also, if you passed away and there was an estate to be settled, the safe deposit box was inaccessible for a time.
9
I guess it's back to keeping everything under the mattress.
Probably best to just buy a safe that you keep in your basement. If you get an expensive one it would be pretty secure.
1
What if you don’t have a basement?
Sad to say but Mr. Poniz first mistake is that he chose a Wells Fargo bank, a bank known for its many discrepancies.
2
@Tonjo Was it a Wells Fargo when he chose it? Probably not.
2
Of course WF is going to fight this even though they know they are at fault. They are a proven crooked operation. I dropped them when their criminal activities came to light a few years ago. Why anyone would trust WF with their money these days is crazy.
8
Can anything good be said about Wells Fargo?
4
@The Logger: Not as far as I'm concerned. And mine is the voice of and for many others.
1
I don’t even use there ATMs whenIm desperate for cash
1
Aw shoot. This makes me wonder if I'd be better off storing things in a small fire proof safe in my own home.
1
It was Well Fargo. Why should we be surprised?
3
Well well well. Banks exhibiting sloppy management, incompetence, maladministration, indifference and hostility to paying customers, theft, deception, and bad faith. Who would ever have thought?
18
When you see the name Wells Fargo you know something bad is going to happen to the customer.
10
Good old Wells Fargo, the Florida Man of the financial industry.
5
You need the 'privacy' of a safe deposit box, without reading the legalese fine print like : “The bank’s liability for any loss in connection with the box for whatever reason shall not exceed ten (10) times the annual rent charged for the box.”
Find a better place for your 'out of Uncle Sam reach' valuables.
1
i wonder if it might help to put a card in the box with the name and contact information for the tenent. it might help the bank to catch mistakes such as drilling the wrong box.
4
Wells Fargo again.
Do these guys ever stop cheating people?
Wells Fargo is like a crime family.
7
@evric
I'm starting to think that perhaps the "like" in your last sentence should be omitted...
It's back to the mattress.
2
This article is an eye opener. Who knew that safe deposit boxes weren't "safe?" Shame on the big banks and their lawyers for not taking responsibility for the losses these customers incurred.
Use credit unions, people.
8
I really wish this article didn’t focus on or even mention Wells Fargo. This is evidently a serious issue with the entire banking industry and people are very likely to hang on to the details about Wells Fargo and think this is just another clown in that clown car, when it would appear the problem runs much deeper.
69
@QTCatch10 yup - that's why I also went into some detail about a case at Bank of America. When I went digging for legal complaints & lawsuits, I found cases at several different major banks.
I used the Wells Fargo story as the focus here because the amount lost was so huge - $10 million! - and because the bank's liability cap is the very lowest among major banks, at just $500.
183
@QTCatch10 I'm not sure why anyone would want to defend Wells as basically they are indefensible. You even allude to them as clowns, but more to the point, they are criminal clowns. The author responds that Wells was even worse than the original article suggests. Personally, I don't use banks period as only credit unions are worthy of any trust in the world banking system.
26
@John
Are credit union safe deposit box policies different from regular banks?
9
Corporations are people (remember?) and, in the case of Wells Fargo and Bank of America, they are both convicted felons. "Banker" does not mean "trustworthy." Quite the opposite.
8
The greed of U.S. corporations is sickening. When obviously in the wrong and with the means to make up the loss and still refuse to do so is greed. If it is no longer profitable to maintain a service then don't offer the service; don't promise to safeguard someones valuables then lose their property. Honesty and integrity should not have to be legislated in an industry that when it comes down to it that is the only thing that they have to sell. It has happened in the past and will undoubtedly happen in the future the government will have to bail them out with our money because of negligence and mismanagement. I just wish that we would remember their greed when we have to save their institution "for the good of the country" and put some of these crooks in jail for the good of the country.
6
This is horrifying. I always thought that my items in the safe deposit box were safe. They're not worth anything, but they are of sentimental or informational value.
I'm going to remove everything as soon as possible, and put them in a fireproof box and keep them at hom.
181
@Postette
There is something inherently wrong with this entire scenario: "safe" deposit box renters need to be more fearful of their personal items being stolen from an "inside job" than the random theft in the night, tunneling through the ceiling or cellar to garner access to the vault.
I'm with you Postette - "remove everything as soon as possible, and put them in a fireproof box and keep them at home."
14
@Postette home should present more risks than the bank vault - there are more burglars, fires, floods, so forth. But at least you have some control and eye sight on these risks at home.
The proper answer is that banks start offering a secure service. And maybe some do?
8
@Postette:
It's a good idea to leave the key in the home fire safe. A thief would be able to easily look inside and see the items are of no value (to him). If locked there's a possibility he takes the box to open at a later date.
1
I understand a contract for a safe deposit box limiting the bank's liability for items stored in the boxes. But once the bank takes the unapproved action of removing a customer's stored items from the box that should immediately nullify the limitation on liability. The bank is then storing the items in a completely different environment chosen by the bank. Liability should then completely transfer to the bank.
37
All of the banks only care about making money and protecting themselves from liability.
My late father-in-law had an account with a large southeastern bank (that is about to get larger). They made us jump through hoops to get power of attorney. When he passed away, we informed the bank, which was supposed to freeze the account. Instead, all they did was lock out our online access. Money still flowed freely in and out of the account.
Worthless. Better off with stuffing cash in a mattress. Seriously.
8
Who told you the bank was supposed to freeze the account? I have been executor twice for family and assisted with another estate. You might close an account, if your POA had not ended at death. Bouncing checks and reversing debits and credits are issues the executor does not need, especially in crucial steps as probate starts. Banks keep the accounts open because no one can tell what debits or credits, including SS benefits, are in process elsewhere. That status also facilitates the task when the executor gets an estate tax ID number and moves the contents to new account under that number.
1
Whichever democratic candidate wins the 2020 election (fingers crossed), if it isn’t Elizabeth Warren, I hope she will at the very least be heading the CFPB.
13
My aunt had a safe deposit box in a bank in NY. It shared a wall with a hair salon, which was broken into and the wall smashed. I'm not kidding. Her box and many others were broken into. She tried to file a claim. The insurer was Lloyd's of London. They told her to prove what was in the box. It's impossible to prove it, so no compensation. It's disgraceful.
13
Vote for elizabeth Warren who has fought to keep the banks in check for her entire political career.
53
I'd like to know where members of Congress keep their valuables: deeds to homes, items of great sentimental value, etc.
If they use safe deposit boxes, this article should prod them to pass legislation forcing banks to live up to the responsibilities we all assumed they already did.
If Congressional members have a different, better option, they should be pressured to make it available to the rest of us.
Financial institutions loathe oversight but their indifference to the trust their customers must place in them is why oversight is crucial. Anybody who thinks that "the market" will find the optimal solution through competition in a case like this is dreaming.
6
You can live the Dream by googling vault deposit services.
Safe deposit boxes - not safe. Insure valuable items? Insurance company will find some small print or loophole to wriggle out of paying customer.
There is no honesty among thieves.
18
When you go into the safe deposit box area at my bank, there's a notice that says that Law Enforcement can search the box under the USA Patriot Act. Then, in 2004, the bank manager started acting odd when I accessed my box. Although I was never presented with any written evidence of it, the signal that registered in my mind was that someone had searched my box. I'm an inventor and an electronic engineer, and inside that box were the original invention records for my method of eliminating MALWARE from semiconductor chips. Around that time there were other odd coincidences going on, which I attributed the to local defense industry here in Minnesota. Certainly I had become a little paranoid about it.
The main problem with all of this is that I was trying to safeguard the patentability of my inventions, which means I had to maintain them as a trade secret. However, there are numerous case law precedents that say if I disclose my inventions to the Government, it's tantamount to a public disclosure. This even includes disclosures made during a search or under the cloak of a security clearance. This was the decision in the so-called ENIAC cases, and one of the reasons the Court invalidated the original patent for the electronic digital computer.
Similar problems occur when the TSA searches your checked luggage at the airport. That is, if you leave documents covered under a civil trade secrecy agreement in your suitcase, then you can probably kiss those goodbye, too.
17
As a bank employee, I recently underwent the process of moving safe deposit boxes. Our location closed and all boxes were relocated to another branch, otherwise the customers could come in and sign to close. Either way the customers needed to physically come to the branch to remove their contents. Anyone who did not had to have their box drilled, free of charge, and the contents were taken inventory with two colleagues and a manager, and sent to corporate's safe. Three letters were sent, emails, and calls made personally. At least with the bank I work at, it is very difficult for items to "go missing". We had many customers claim they lost items, but the only way that could have happened would if they allowed family to access the box or otherwise just forgot where they placed their item. Leases are legal documents and I believe it does come down to the responsibility of the individual who signs and agrees to the terms and conditions. This is why banks are getting rid of the boxes, they don't generate much income and put everyone at more risk than anything.
3
@True But how do you explain the discrepancy in inventory lists between the banks when they were moving the items? Clearly one or more bank employees STOLE them. There's literally no other explanation.
13
That’s a Wells Fargo feature. After all,theee mission statement does say ‘we steal from out customers’.
1
Unmentioned are boxes that are considered 'abandoned' by state law with the contents taken by local authorities. This has been a problem in more than one state where a lack of activity for an often too short period of time lets the state take possession of contents.
State and federal laws increasingly limit what can be kept in safety deposit boxes - giving authorities the legal right to control access and confiscate contents.
5
Leaving large netted items in a safe deposit box at a bank, I recommend going to the institution every 90 days to check the items. Like the article states, for banks there is no money in leasing safe deposit boxes; therefore to keep items safe, the leaser should keep track of the box. Banks changing hands, closing locations, the leaser should be aware of what's going with their financial institution. Imagine leaving 10 million dollars of gold etc. expecting the banks to keep track of a safe deposit box, where there is no money in the leasing a box at location. Great story. Banks are not solid intuitions anymore.
5
Wells Fargo, BofA, Chase all of the corporate banks and financial institutions go by the policy the customer is worthless except for all the money we can get out of them.
20
Banks are not honorable and accountable to their customers?
Banks will use their resources to drag out litigation for years and wear down those with legit claims?
The agreements that banks sign with their customers are tilted in their favor and force people into arbitration which usually favor their interests?
Who knew ;-)
8
If anyone who is aware of all of the criminal activities Wells Fargo has been up to in the past few years, and still does business with them, I’m sorry to say, you get what you deserve I wouldn’t bank there if it was the last bank on earth.
8
Would not the owner of valuable personal property insure it on a homeower's policy? Or would that not cover property stored offsite?
3
@Cigi I would imagine that a personal articles floater policy would probably cover items stored in these boxes. But high value items probably must be individually covered on the floater. Standard homeowners policies might not cover high value items.
The description in this story about what happened to Mr. Poniz doesn't prove anything, but it would not be inconsistent with a theory that the bank's employees decided to steal his stuff, drilled out the box, did the paperwork, and divvied up the loot.
Maybe there are other facts, not in the story, that would be inconsistent with such a theory.
7
@Joe Ryan - Most banks don't drill out their own safety deposit boxes. I used to work for a company that did bank security management-vault maintenance, etc. We had a whole department that did nothing but drill out safety deposit boxes for major bank chains like Bank of America and Wells Fargo. There's too much liability for the banks to do it themselves.
1
Never imagined these sorts of problems with safe deposit boxes. I wonder if the armored car companies offer a secure and insured service for people with high value items? The rest of us should be okay with a fireproof, waterproof home safe. They’re not very expensive. They pay for themselves with the elimination of high bank safe deposit box rental fees.
@Jamie
In my mind the problem with having valuables at home is that you or your loved ones could be threatened or killed to get you to open the safe. I remember my father becoming paranoid when his wife's stepson found out that they had a safe. The stepson seemed overly interested in it and did not have a great background. I wonder where valuables should be kept. Wish the article could have given some ideas.
132
@Mark It's a tricky question to answer! Home safes are increasingly popular, but as you noted, they have risks.
One option is to use a safe-deposit box or other secure, off-site storage (some cities have businesses that run non-bank secure storage facilities for valuables), but to make sure the items are inventoried and insured. Homeowner's carriers will typically insure property stored off-site (though it may require a rider, depending on the value of the property), and there are some speciality insurance companies — I quoted one in the article — that work in this space.
79
@Mark I suppose one solution for this specific problem would be to keep the valuables in the safe at home, but keep the key or combination to the safe in the bank safe. Then at least the bank would have to be involved in any robbery attempt, which would increase the risk to the criminals, while keeping the actual valuables at home.
With the race to the bottom this Administration is pushing at full throttle with its massive push to deregulate everything, we should expect nothing less than zero responsibility on the part of our new "corptocracy" and be installing a home safe.
8
Perhaps I'm oversimplifying the argument, but I would bet that safe deposit boxes are actually quite safe when compared to other locations used to store valuables.
Agreed that they probably are not as safe as we think they might be, thanks to anecdotal examples shown here. But to state that they are not safe is likely untrue.
Good point about the lack of federal oversight, but how could the Feds govern this if they don't require contents to be disclosed. Wouldn't a better solution be to insure the contents on your own, then decide whether a safe deposit box is the right place to store them?
Very interesting article...
5
Certainly some company on earth will insure the valuables in a safety deposit box at a lower rate than keeping them under one's mattress. Did I miss something or did the author fail to address how to resolve the problem easily?
2
@Curiouser- there is no "easy way" to resolve the problem, which is the point of this article. If the bank "loses" the things you consign into one of those boxes, you're pretty much stuck.
1
It's bad enough that we have to keep our money in banks; I don't even trust them with that. I'd never dream of trusting a bank with my physical, tangible possessions. Maybe a Swiss bank that's been around for 700 years, but definitely not an American one.
6
Thank you for writing this article. I've never use a safety deposit box before, and now I know never to get one!
18
Another Bank did the same thing with our box in NJ. They realized they drilled the box by mistake and sent an internal memo about it, but never contacted us. After month they found an opened envelope with documents in it, but none of the other items that were in the box. The financial loss to us was substantial. No, safety deposit boxes are not safe.
27
Time to get a fire proof home safe. I’ve noticed a steady decline in banks having interest in safe deposit boxes. That’s one part of their business they can’t automate and requires an employee to handle the job.
5
This is all a result of the republican deregulation agenda. In other western countries like Canada and in the EU you would surely find more banking regulations and protections for the consumer. But in the United States we care more about the corporations profits than our own people.
125
It's impossible to understand how the bank is not liable after admitting it emptied the box by mistake. Even if you agree that the bank's boilerplate contract language limits its liability for things disappearing from the box, at that point, the items were no longer in a safety deposit box - the bank became their custodian.
That said, anyone with valuable personal items needs to insure them, wherever they are stored. Ironically, if they are stored in a safe deposit box, the insurance should be quite reasonable.
17
This is completely shocking to me, but if I had such valuables in a safe deposit box, I would still carry insurance on them.
5
@Luann Nelson agreed. I would consider leaving the valuables at home where they can be seen/enjoyed, and taking out a policy on them in the event they are stolen.
Perhaps rates would be sky high -- but if these watches were as rare as they appear to be, likely worth the additional $ per annum.
1
I plan to close my account and retrieve my valuables from my safe deposit box. This is deplorable action on the bank's part as well as the judicial branch. Another example of rich looting the rest of us. The banks could afford to make the people whole.
I guess a home safe is the answer.
27
@Dianna
Home safes aren't much safer because they can be drilled or cut into when you are not present. You have to spend and extraordinary amount of money just to get a safe made with hardened steel.
4
Human beings have a right to expect that the institutions they do business with will treat them with the respect that human beings deserve. If a friend or acquaintance treated you this way, you would not tolerate it, but giant corporations think they can rig everything at the expense of the individuals they supposedly serve, and just pay for enough advertising and public relations to make it all OK.
We see it in their unfair arbitration clauses; in the software licenses and privacy agreements we are forced to sign; in the way our personal data is monetized in ways we cannot discover; in the zero-sum ways their lobbyists and PACs operate at our expense.
America is by no means a socialist country. But our giant corporations, through their behavior, may yet make it one.
41
Are safety deposit boxes regulated by Federal statutes alone, or do states and municipalities have a say also? If so, maybe one or more members of our (NY, my place of residence) state assembly, senate and/or City council could introduce legislation that not only brings some rhyme and reason to this Wild West situation (Wells Fargo!), but also mandates banks to offer this service to its customers at reasonable rates. The banks around here (New York City) seem to be doing quite well, so that wouldn't be an outrageous mandate.
5
Reading about poor Mr. Poniz's loss just reinforced my own feeling of gratitude that I'm poor. I've no need of a safe deposit box, as I have no jewelry or other valuables to put into it. When you got nothin', you got nothin' to lose. Or fret over. Or go to court for.
16
Banks keep up this facade of having a big safe in plain sight but try getting $10,000 in cash from your local branch, they won’t have it on hand. Fact is banks keep the bare minimum of cash on hand, I know, I’ve had to “order” cash when I needed it when buying a airplane. It was only $14,000 but the local branch said they never keep that much on hand.
If the bank doesn’t consider their vault safe why would anyone else?
18
I have so many questions. What sort of an airplane costs $14,000? Why did you buy it with cash rather than some other form of transaction? What was the bank you went to that didn't have $14,000 in cash?
13
@Locho This sort of thing is common. In my experience, I would estimate that most banks have around $20,000 on hand but they won't give you $14,000 because that would leave them without enough for other customers.
This includes the branches of banks in the NYC wall street area where their name is on the building.
3
Branches can order cash and it is there next day. It is your business what you do with the cash, but expect a report filed with the Feds after the call.
2
Why is Wells Fargo still in business? And who would keep their account there?
97
Precisely, this bank has opened credit accounts unknown to the named person named, has been responsible(?) for other fraudulent practices that are putting American citizens and customers in financial peril. They apologize but, continue to demonstrate (Trumpian fraud values) reckless practices. They stay in business by robbing innocent people with no consequence.
5
@Vincent: This is a conundrum for me because I read about their misdeeds and don't want to support that, yet I'm extremely happy with the services I've received there as a customer.
I've had accounts at several major banks. Most were bad experiences. My local WF branch is pleasant and accommodating. By comparison, I also have an account at B of A and hate going there. On my last visit I was told no employee could speak to me that day and not the next day either!
Really, are there any big corporations that are truly ethical?
2
There is no "safe box" anywhere. The answer is very simple, even items stored in banks require insurance. That is how you protect valuables.
7
So, the solution is to pay one Mafia to protect you from another. This is nonsensical. The very name safe deposit box implies that the bank is responsible for the safety of your valuables.
1
@Ed how would you “insure” the pink slip for your car, the deed to your house or stock certificates?
3
You wouldn’t need insurance for those items by their very nature. Deed is an unnecessary copy of an original record stored at county courthouse. Title for car is a copy of an original record at the DMV (relatively easy to get a copy made before selling vehicle). Same goes for birth certificates. Paper stocks have long been going away. If you have an old certificate simply take the CUSIP number off the certificate to convert to electronic form and now you have a valueless but pretty piece of wall decor.
Bearer bonds have not been a thing since the 80s. Literally the only thing I can think of that would have no verifiable ownership trail that would fit in a box.
Safe deposit box is great for copies of documents in case of a house fire or flood so you can get all documents from one place rather than go to a dozen government offices to get new copies. Anything super valuable should be insured.
1
Stop banking with commercial, for-profit bank, especially Wells Fargo, which has shown utter contempt for the American consumer. The best place to bank is still the credit union. If more people put their monies into credit unions, they will make commercial banking obsolete.
95
I just do not get why the courts always side with big institutions like banks against customers? Do the judges go home and pat themselves on the back in how they "followed the law" to the letter at the expense of decency and common sense?
29
@Brian Apparently Rita Miller does just that.
2
I am confused. How is it that they can drill a box without the customer present? It seems like passing such a law would be a simple fix which is obviously not going to happen in the present corporate kleptocracy.
16
If the building changes ownership, sometimes turned into a sandwich shop, you have to empty the boxes. Yes, people do forget they have a box and don’t respond no matter how many letters you send them.
@Chuck Burton They drill them open because they can't find the owner, making it impossible to require that the owner be present. As the article states in one example, the bank sent numerous letters but got no response, so they drilled it open. I'm not saying that this is necessarily okay, but it answers your question.
1
Almost certainly the exception, not the rule. Add a due diligence clause.
If the banks were liable to cover the value of the contents of their safe deposit boxes, they would presumably either self-insure or purchase some form of third-party insurance. Either way, they would raise the price substantially for everyone and/or ask customers to declare the value of the contents of the box and price accordingly. The NYT is off-base on this one.
1
@Sensible Even if the terms of the Agreement limit the banks' liability, in the Poniz case, his items were removed in error, inventoried and then stored by the bank. The bank's own inventory records on returning the contents showed numerous items missing. How in the world is Wells Fargo not liable for their own admitted failure to lose items that they took by mistake from a box?
49
Banks are no longer for the people. They are for The Rich, and for each other.
Now that the country owes 22 trillion, interest rates can never go up, and they want it that way, so your only choice for decent returns is the stock market or real estate (and they'll happily sell you a mortgage).
12
I've known for years that banks do not insure safe deposit boxes and that you lock valuables up at your own risk, but my wife and I have had safe deposit boxes for the past 40 years mainly to protect legal documents from fire damage.
I'm a little surprised that Mr, Poniz didn't know this and did not have a full size safe on his premises to protect the obviously valuable inventory he has. I'm also surprised that he didn't have an insurance policy covering these valuables. I'm in no way sticking up for the banks as I've always felt that the laws were far too lenient in the banks favor, but Mr. Poniz should have taken better precautions with his valuable items.
18
@VMG hard to believe he did not have insurance.
1
@VMG
Blame the victim?
3
@Vincent
Yes, because he was too cheap to buy insurance for items valued at millions of dollars and believed renting a $300/year box was sufficient to store these valuables.
3
In the olden days...banks were places of relative trust, though a banker might be less so.
Now, a safe deposit box should be renamed just "deposit box." A banker should be a "wealth management salesman." And a customer "the mark."
We've moved our money -- and our safe deposit box -- into a local credit union. The illusion of safety and trust is important to us.
50
@SGK my late grand dad lost all his money in a bank run and closure in 1907 I believe. Banks only give the impression of stability. Please go home and rewatch the original Mary Poppins and while u r at it , watch the remake too. So only use a bank that can produce dick van dyke to take your pence. Accept no substitutes.
For what it's worth, some credit unions have safe deposit boxes available, particularly if they have taken over former "full-service" bank branches.
I would still read the fine print.
10
We lost all of our jewelry and gold at a safety deposit box at Key Bank, we now know that they are NOT safe.
21
I used to have an account and safe deposit box at a bank near my office in downtown DC. To insert or retrieve items, a clerk had to get up on a stepladder and use a hammer and screwdriver (as well as the keys) to remove the box.
It made me feel more secure about it.
3
I think the banks have a point. Should I think that, for $246 a year, I can be guaranteed protection of something worth $7.3 million?
4
@Mark Part of me agrees, but then part of me thinks that if you had $7.3 million in cash, you'd probably put *that* in a bank...And you likely wouldn't pay the bank for the privilege (at least not directly).
4
@KM If your put $7.3 million into a single bank, the FDIC will cover $250 thousand of it, the rest is all at risk in a bank collapse.
7
@KM: Per what Doug is saying, if you put that money into accounts at 30 banks, then they would have the use of your money--they could make loans to people--which they don't have if it's in a box.
Back at the turn of the last century, I read that contracts were often printed with "additional" tiny text that was too small to see without a magnifying glass. Then, when the person who signed it disputed some action of the other party, they would show the judge the fine print, and often prevail in court.
I believe that practice was finally disallowed by the courts, but they still hide things in complex statements and obscure legalese.
Do you think we'll ever get to the point where a contract for a website or a safe deposit box will be written in simple, understandable language? We're not there yet.
14
@mlbex When it comes to the safekeeping of millions of dollars in assets, not reading the entire contract is inexcusable.
7
@Kohl: I agree. Maybe these contracts are not intended to govern the storage of such assets in the first place. A sensible person wanting protection for such assets ought to ask whether this is the best vehicle for that purpose.
1
@Kohl: True, there is no excuse to not read the contract just because it is complicated and full of inscrutable legalese. But I stand by my points; that the legalese, length, and complexity are there to obfuscate the intentions of the writers. An honorable court system would compel them to stop doing it.
4
Years ago I had the pleasure of cleaning out my father's safe deposit box he'd obviously had for many years and happily depositing items into it. What I found stumped me to no end..white eagle feathers (found out later after lots of inquiries), a dog collar, rocks, a pocket knife, a bullet casing, a few collected skulls and things from his hikes...all deposited with him after death on his request. One has to wonder what is truly valuable in life.
Mr. Poniz, I am sorry for your loss but thankful you allowed this interview. I emptied my safe deposit box months ago and am now happily wearing all the jewelry I had in it. My jeweler once scolded me for not wearing all my beautiful pieces- why have it if you don't appreciate and enjoy? I also have the rest of the contents with me in my house, which will do...
What is truly worth a safe deposit box? These comments tell us- maybe not as much as we are willing to risk with minimal consumer protections these days.
14
After reading this I think I'll buy a safe, bury it in the backyard and cover it with composts. Really, how could it be any less safe than my safe deposit or digital deposit for that matter.
13
Many people store documents in safe deposit boxes that are replaceable. These include birth certificates, deeds to property, and even passports. If you read the fine print, a bank book is proof of deposit only when it corresponds to the records of the bank. Keeping a will in a box can cause problems for the executors. I suspect we all know why people keep cash in a box. At least in NY, an opened box must be inventoried by a notary public, usually a bank employee. They have legal obligations beyond their employer.
2
@David if you read to the end of the article, Wells Fargo was simply didn't comply with the law.
8
I use a bank SD box to store a hard drive with complete backups of my home computer (hard drive image + all user folders). I do regular backups at home onto a different (home-based) hard drive, but once a month I take the hard drive out of the SD box, update it, and return it to the box. That way, if there's ever a fire in my home that destroys my computer or external drives, I have a backup of my digital life -- including tax records and 1000's of photos -- that doesn't depend on cloud storage. PS I know someone who lost years worth of computer data needed for his dissertation due to a house fire.
18
@julian
Same here!
Except I only switch out the drive quarterly.
Isn’t the cloud a better choice?
@julian Carbonite or Backblaze, man. There are modern solutions for this.
After I returned from several months abroad, I went to my local bank to retrieve my everyday items (my wife's jewelry, credit cards) from the vault and discovered that the door had not been locked by noticing the position of the key slots.
As I pried the door open with a fingernail, the employee said, "We've always had problems with that box." Apparently, this was the first thing that he could think to say inasmuch as if it were true, it should have been repaired.
Also, I had been the renter of that box for longer than that branch had been owned by the current bank and never had a problem. Obviously, the last employee did not properly lock the box.
Fortunately, nothing was missing.
13
I obtained a safe deposit box at a local institution and placed $30 million in large, flawless diamonds, the ownership of which I had never disclosed to anyone, into it for safe keeping. I came in to check a few months later and they were gone! The bank was not buying it, however.
14
Banks hide behind the law when it works for them, and just shrug when it doesn’t. No wonder people cheer when bad things happen to banks.
84
I'm a big believer in bank safe deposit boxes, because if my house burns down, even a "fireproof" safe in my basement won't protect my valuables. That being said, bank safe deposit boxes also have their limitations, as evidenced by the incidents described in this article.
While you cannot guarantee that the items in your safe deposit box won't somehow disappear, you can at least safeguard the value of those items by purchasing "vault insurance." This type of insurance isn't common, obviously, but higher-end insurance companies do offer it, and it's less expensive than insurance for valuables that remain in the home at all times. If Mr. Poniz had purchased vault insurance for his rare watches, he would at least have been reimbursed for their value as stated on his insurance policy.
10
@ALB If you have a basement, you can install a fireproof waterproof safe into a basement wall behind a separate closure door that will greatly extend the fire rating on the safe, since the soil around it will protect it from any house fire.
2
While living in Houston, Texas during the 80's, 90, and 2000's, every now and then a news story would appear in the Houston Chronicle describing similar situations. The banks in those cases settled using NDA's to keep their names out of the papers. That seemed to be the only way to recover the losses, threats of lots of publicity. As stated in the story, banks do not like people to know the truth about the lack of safety surrounding safe deposit boxes. If you are in a similar situation, threaten to go public, and go public loudly if necessary. It worked in Houston.
10
I use to have a safe deposit box at this bank branch, mostly to hold important personal papers.
Now I keep my valuables in a fireproof box at home and hope we don’t get robbed, flooded (yes, they’re in sealed plastic) or some other catastrophe.
My takeaway is just don’t own anything of too much value, and use and enjoy whatever you do have, and scan the papers onto a thumb drive (and remember where I put it - but not a safe deposit box).
30
I had a Wells Fargo safe deposit box for over four years. Correction, I thought I had one. I visited it to add papers, my grandmother's wedding ring, and gold coins. One day, during a routine transaction with a Wells Fargo employee, I mentioned the deposit box. The employee told me I didn't have one. I said I most certainly did, at that bank.
That's when I discovered Wells Fargo's branch was "sloppy" and hadn't actually recorded my deposit box. Anyone could have opened it, taken what was in it, and they had no record the box was mine.
I no longer have a "safety deposit box" at Wells Fargo but I do have all the things I kept in it. By pure chance.
197
My husband had a box at the Chase bank at the World Trade Center. It was destroyed when the towers went down. We had some papers, his dad's birth certificate... not valuable but more sentimental. They offered us $500 for the contents, unless we could prove there were more valuable items in there. We took the money.
We use a local bank's safe deposit box for valuable items when we travel. We put them in, and then take them out when we return. Now I'm not sure we should continue with this practice. Probably safer to hide the items in our house.
11
Get a semi-cheap safe with a good lock, fill it with anything heavy like a few bricks, leave in your closet. Get another better safe with a good lock, put your important stuff and a GPS transmitter in it and leave it with a trusted friend or relative when you're away.
A burglar hitting your home will find the safe and take it with them because they are hit-n-run quickie burglars. They don't loiter.
If your other safe is stolen, you can track it on your cellphone.
5
Apparently safe deposit boxes are safe from everyone but the bank. Limitations of liability in rental contracts should not exempt the bank from its own negligence or from thefts by its own employees. Surely such a release violates the public interest as a matter of contract law. Any other result should be indefensible. Courts, are you listening to yourselves?
21
@Barbara8101: I am skeptical. Suppose I put $1 billion in a safe deposit box that costs me $246 a year, and through negligence or employee theft that money is gone. Why is it in the public interest that there should be no limitation on the bank's liability? It is rather in the public interest that such a silly action on my part be prevented, through the liability limitation (because it would be irrational for me to do it), in the first place.
@Mark The answer to your question is that it isn't in the public interest to blame the victim. Using your logic, it should be illegal for for people to drive expensive cars, for women to wear short skirts, and for people to live in dangerous neighborhoods.
1
When my dad died unexpectedly, we had a nightmare of a time accessing his box at a local credit union. It took us over 8 months to get into it, despite having all the correct paperwork and keys. We dealt with more than one credit union employee who gave us wrong, conflicting, misleading, and illegal information. One particularly unhelpful manager told us that safe deposit box rules go back to the dawn of banking and were “in a grey area.” When we finally gained access, the box was empty. I just assumed that my dad had taken his things out, but now I wonder.
76
Now I know why Chase offered me a free safe depot box (with upgrade) if I didn't close my existing bank account.
13
Chase wants it all.
I've always said, don't call it a safe deposit box, call it a lock box (after reading the fine print).
3
So people don't read the contract they sign when they rent a safe deposit box? Why? Is it because they think it's a bank and just because they have a vault that mistakes can't be made? If that were the case then there would be no need for a contract. The article didn't mention but since lawyers are involved I assume that Mr. Poniz didn't have his valuables insured. Why? While being handed a healthy insurance check doesn't get his watches back, it's better than wandering around in the streets without a wristwatch. Nothing is ever as simple or sure as it may seem. The devil is in the details and sometime he wins and wins big.
3
@Kurt Pickard Out of curiosity, when was the last time you read all of the fine print? For example, have you read the NY Times Privacy or Terms of Service statements? Or every similar document for your online browser or email service? Me neither. How about those mortgage service documents for your house(s)? Now I have read through those. Ask me what percentage of what I read that I understand ... perhaps as much as 90%? I don't have a safe deposit box so I don't know how that legalize reads, but I bet the authors don't go to a great deal of trouble to make it understandable to non-lawyers.
21
@Susan Which is precisely why, when there's a large amount of money at stake, lawyers should always be involved.
3
@Susan When the fine print concerns assets worth millions of dollars I read everything.
3
If you can read German, a Jörg Maurer novel, „Am Tatort bleibt man ungern liegen“ is a humorous whodunit involving safety deposit boxes and what’s in them.
2
Abandon large banks. Patronize local credit unions instead.
24
I agree, but my local credit union, to which I belonged for over 40 years, was taken over by PenFed, an institution as large as any huge bank!
11
@nom de guerre: Why does that make you safer?
7
Seems like this comes down to misguided expectations. Customers thought that safe deposit boxes were magically inviolable. And that banks would compensate losses of secret contents. Meanwhile, preexisting history shows how often boxes have been lost and rental contracts clearly define terms, including bank liability.
Believing in an image that contradicts reality can lead to heartbreak. The lesson here is not just about safety deposit boxes but life in general.
7
To echo 'BobBoston' - come on.. this is Wells Fargo - did you expect honesty and integrity?
68
Federal law that the banks probably wrote.
26
First, why would anyone trust Wells Fargo with anything? They are entirely corrupt as is B of A who's Merrill Lynch swiped tens of thousands of my husband's retirement monies in 2008. We check our bank monthly, every dime and penny. They are legally able to be a pack of thieves and I am very concerned about the approaching meltdown created by an administration that is built by a bunch of money laundering, corrupt folks who can't get enough. Beware.
52
@lulu roch I learned 25 years ago not to trust Merril Lynch financial advisors (hustlers,) Mine ground my account down to make money for himself, leaving me with almost nothing.
2
Not for anything but you left out another safe deposit heist flick, not popular I guess but funny, "The Hot Rock".
Otherwise an eye opening article. Kind of scary to think of too.
5
I loved The Hot Rock!
Based on my personal experience with both of these banks, I propose the following ideas: Wells Fargo? Wells Forgo. As in "forgo all responsibility for anything unless it puts $$ in WF's pockets". Bank of America? BoA. Boa. As in "boa constrictor", which is how this bank acts, squeezing every possible penny from every single customer in any way it can.
13
"Banks increasingly regard safe deposit boxes as more of a headache than they’re worth. They’re expensive to build, complicated to maintain and not very lucrative."
Not very lucrative? Apparently, these bank officials/employees don't use their own product for if they did, they would realize the insane rising costs of renting such a box. We pay a fortune every year and now I read that there "are no federal laws governing the boxes; no rules require banks to compensate customers if their property is stolen or destroyed."
What the heck? This sounds like the best scam in town with virtually no accountability or consequences for the bank and NO recourse for the customer.
Dang - it almost seems safer to rent a self-storage unit somewhere. This weekend - we are pulling out all of our stuff from of our "safe" deposit boxes.
What an oxymoron.
Thanks NYT for this extremely valuable article - another reason why I am happy and satisfied paid subscriber.
186
@Marge Keller You really don't want to trust self-storage companies with your valuables. I had an indoor storage unit that had another unit above it. The floor of the unit above (ceiling of my unit) was metal, but it was slatted and had tiny gaps in the middle and larger gaps at the sides. The storage company called me to ask me to open my unit because the tenant above had lost a "paddle" and though it might have slipped in between the cracks.
I opened my unit to find no paddle. But some sticky, greasy liquid had spilled from the unit above, ruining several boxes of papers and sentimental objects. The storage company only offered me boxes to re-box my belongings and a new storage unit elsewhere and maybe one month free rent. We went back and forth and I ended up accepting a pittance for the lost belongings.
They seemed utterly unconcerned about the violation that this represented. I had to handle the unknown liquid as I went through my belongings. They called the other tenant and said it was a cleaning product. I was shocked that this kind of thing can happen and that the company can get away with it.
12
@Hdb
Good intel. Thanks for taking the time to share this.
8
I had no idea. Like Mr. Poniz, I think of safe deposit boxes as Fort Knox. I'd better think again. But where does one put valuables? I don't think my house is safer than a bank vault. Several years ago when I switched banks I had to use a branch way across town to find one that even had safe deposit boxes. Now I know why.
15
@LW Why would anyone assume a local bank has a vault "like Fort Knox"? Nothing is ever completely safe, especially when it can't be digitally reproduced. Insurance is the only real solution.
You can get a safe installed at home.
This reminds me of the World Trade Center disaster.
People got back crushed jewelry, partially burnt cash, etc.
There was also that "Command Center" set up for emergencies.
There is no place on earth that's 100% secure.
3
What a disgrace - the customer left those items in safe custody with the banks. In my opinion, he is entitled to market value for his missing items - there is nothing that the banks could say that would change my view on that/
I just hope he gets compensated sufficiently.
25
Elizabeth Warren understands the greed that drives these corporate vultures. Where's jail time for the Wells Fargo leadership team?
143
@Ed
This would be considered a non-violent crime so no jail time under current legislative proposals. Elizabeth Warren is barking up the wrong tree.
Those Winklevoss twins are in trouble. They stored all their bitcoin info in "safe deposit" boxes around the world.
6
Don't do business with Wells Fargo- the bank that can't be trusted.
56
Chase is the same.
1
And if you install a home safe please remember to have wet cement poured, or bolt it to the slab.
A friend lost $10k and jewelry when her home safe was stolen when she had left the house for only one hour. It was a heavy, large safe that needed two strong people to carry it.
Anchor your safe!
32
@Anonymous Don’t buy a home safe for real valuables. Bolted or not, it will take a professional less than you think to break it open.
@Alfonso
Then what should you do with real valuables, as you put it?
Of course, Wells Fargo. And then there’s Bank of America too. Remember how the tax payers bailed them out, and they turned around and showed their gratitudes to the tax payers with foreclosures. The tax payers gave them mercy to save them but non for those tax payers whose properties they foreclosed. Still arrogant and selfish, as usual — they still would not admit their errors/sins and settle with, in this case, their customers and now victims. Again.
39
Ha ha - This happened to me. Our bank was renovating its vault. Their contractor "accidentally" removed an entire panel of boxes and sent them (and their contents) off to be ground into dust. Goodbye to our birth certificates, naturalization documents, auto titles, savings bonds.
If you have a safe deposit box, make sure you keep a detailed inventory - including document serial numbers - of what's in there. If I hadn't had that information we would have been in a hopeless situation.
51
Describe and photograph everything that is kept at a bank or at home. Keep it updated. It is very tempting to hold on to expensive treasures, but if you don't wear or use them, turn them into cash, stocks & bonds, etc. I think of the scripture
lay up not treasures on earth where moths corrupt and thieves break in and steal when I saw this article.
14
@Becky Saul So you’re saying that holding onto grandma’s wedding ring will corrupt yoy, but God’s good with your parlaying that ring into Apple stock?
1
@Becky Saul And keep the record of your belongings in a safe deposit box.
More excellent investigative reporting from the NYT--many thanks.
70
I hate to say that more government regulation is required but it is. We have a safe deposit box and had no idea that the contents were anything less than 100% safe. The article is unhelpful in that it doesn't suggest effective alternatives to bank safe deposit boxes. It also doesn't help that banks will not accept cash deposits except by those who own the account, although I can only speak for Wells Fargo and Chase. They claim they are fighting money laundering. So, my wife and I being elderly and disabled cannot ask our daughter to deposit small amounts of cash in our checking account to pay bills. Instead, she has to deposit the cash in her checking account and then deposit her check into our checking account. Banks in general are ludicrous and arbitrary - they pose major inconvenience to their customers.
10
@Mike If you make your daughter a signatory on your account, she can deposit cash, too. Requires you to go to the bank in person, though, with her.
3
@Katrin Thanks, but already tried that at Wells. They claimed she actually had to be named on the account which would allow her to also make withdrawals or even close the account.
2
If you grant her limited durable Power of Attorney using Wells Fargo forms, her name appears as POA on all statements and on computer screens. I did it that way for my mother. That is a better idea than giving signature authority. Making her a co-owner complicates tax situation and is a real pain to undo. POAs are great and can be revoked via phone call. Nothing goes to IRS with her name or SSN.
3
I'm on day three of waiting for my 401k check from Wells Fargo that will be rolled over to my new employers plan. This was overnight-ed to me for a $25 fee! I'll be so happy to be finally divested of Wells Fargo products.
17
The Fed government strictly controls distribution of 401K, deferred compensation and cash balance retirement rollovers. You cannot use electronic, even wire, unless it goes to a retirement account controlled by same entity. I had to get a check, delivered via mail, even though receiving IRA was in same entity as my employer because a third party actually ran that one account for the employer. Those transactions, likely only occurring a few times in a lifetime, for amounts normal people only see once or twice, need some kind of updating. I found paper and snail mail were still kings in that arena.
1
As someone who worked for a major bank, I can tell you that these "products" are viewed as very low on the profitability scale for banks (i.e. why invest time selling a product to a customer that brings in less than $100/yr when you can sell them a credit that generates ten-fold that amount). Have you tried to open one lately? The branch staff will literally play "hot potato" handling the request until someone grudgingly agrees to help the customer.
7
If you are a high tier customer (that does not mean multimillionaire, just someone with lots of different services) you don’t have a problem. The individual box, as noted does not do much. If they value the relationship, they do it with a smile. I would never do anything at a bank just on a transaction basis. Just showing up at a new bank and wanting to open a box could get the reaction you noted.
There is something wrong with this story.
If the bank drilled open Mr. Poniz's box then he would not have been able to open the box with his old keys. According to my bank, Chase, I have the only two keys that will open my box. According to them, drilling it is the only way to open it without one of the keys which have in my possession. Once they drill a box and replace the lock they have no way of knowing how the old lock was keyed so it would be impossible for them to replace it with a lock that matched the original keys. Unless they are lying and actually have more keys to a safety deposit box than they say they do. Or they have the code of all of the customer keys and can simply reproduce the needed key if they want to open a box, which is the same as having the actual key.
Someone is lying.
13
@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus They had two boxes, both with the number 105.
5
@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus
Or someone you know how tumblers work. If I can rekey my kwikset cores to use the same key, I am certain the bank can do the same to their lock cores.
4
@chrisp339
But you have to know the key code or have the key in your possession. Of course the bank can do the same but they are lying to their customers about who has access to their boxes.
2
Not in defense of the banks, but did those who lost high-end items prepare their own detailed inventories with photos, so they could document their losses?
And I do wonder when things like cash and loose stones are stored ... well, again, a normal theme from movies is the legitimacy of how they were acquired.
3
My wife and I have had the same safety deposit box in the same location for over 40 years. The bank's ownership has changed several times. When we first used it, we would have to "sign in," and if the signatures matched the filed ones, we were admitted. Last week when I went to store documents while we moved houses (we don't keep personal items in it anymore), the bank officer, who knows me, didn't want to take a valid passport as proof! They seem to think that a driver's license is a better identification form!
14
From the TARP bailouts, to the usurious rates that the financial industry can charge on credit cards are indications of how your government "representatives" have been "representing" your interests. Both major parties are guilty and it would serve us all if all voters scrutinized where elective candidates get their campaign contributions from and vote out anyone accepting money from this industry.
30
Went to check my deposit box at Chase Bank. A year had passed since I last opened it. Key would not work. Finally I was told the bank's locksmith had drilled the lock by mistake months ago without notifying/informing me and put the contents in a new box. They opened the new box after locating it, some items were missing, important irreplaceable and valuable items - stuff that could be pawned by a thief.
Chase did not follow its own procedures to 1) inventory the contents of any drilled box, 2) have two witnesses present at all times while the contents were unlocked, 3) no internal paperwork or documentation, 4) no apologies just lots of empty looks. Made a police report immediately. Never heard from the cops, never heard from Chase. Moved my accounts to another bank.
557
@Orange County Voice
When my father died, his will was in a safe deposit box. He had other accounts at the bank, and I registered immediately as the executor of his estate. I knew the number of the box, but it took me awhile (but no more than a couple of weeks) to locate the key. When I went in, I saw the box with that number had been drilled, but the bank manager assured me that I was mistaken, that HERE was my father's box. There wasn't much of anything in it. The will was missing, and so were the few valuables I had expected to find. The bank manager was clearly nervous, and somehow I learned that my father's unscrupulous brother had come in and persuaded him to open the box.
Because of other issues with this uncle and how my father's property was entangled with my incapacitated grandfather's (hence the importance of the will and why the uncle stole it), I had an attorney. The attorney informed me that while I was clearly in the right, I couldn't prove the value of what was in the box so there was no point in attempting legal action. That was galling but sound advice under the circumstances.
A few years later, the bank manager was in the news—this was not an isolated incident, and it was small potatoes indicative of a larger-scale lack of ethics and morals. And at the time (1988), this was a small, independent local bank that families had trusted for generations. Without intense vigilance, money always corrupts.
127
I would not let bankers (the new ‘hole-in-the-wall gang’) pick up after my dog, let alone secure my stuff.
25
@C Wolfe, your father's lawyer should have a copy of the will. In some states it is possible to register a will with the Register of Deeds.
13
Very interesting article. Does the same tilted playing field also apply to boxes held at private safe-deposit centers?
7
@J.J. Hunsecker
Your just renting a storage space in most cases. They typically offer to sell you some insurance as well, but many states regulate the sale of insurance to licensed agents. You should probably get the insurance from the same agent you use for homeowner's insurance.
1
I think I have seen every one of the movies cited and more than a few others. In every one of them, typically after the crime, somebody says something about how the bank does not really cover losses except for a small amount, even in UK. That fact and that the victims, only in the movies, are usually worse people than the thieves, triggers the second part of movie, bad people going after the thieves. While the banks cited look to be at fault, people can protect themselves by staying in contact with bank, easier to do now with e-mail addresses on file, and checking on your box periodically. Every merger or divestiture, the more likely triggers in 2019 of these issues, takes a year or more. Over that time notices appear, even if not sent directly to you. If I had 10 million dollars of items somewhere, I would stop in once a quarter and make sure people there recognized me. Not an excuse for the bank, but prudent actions can backstop others’ mistakes.
As for keeping items at home, the horror stories of thefts by family and burglars in homes must be 1000 times the incidence of lost safe deposit box contents.
5
Are these types of loses not covered by insurance?
9
@Hannah Creager I'm wondering why no mention is made of these items being insured by the owners.
2
Insurance riders for art and jewelry are expensive and requires appraisals of each item, so many collectors can’t afford them. This is why you hear of thefts of art from homes, or art destroyed by fires, being uninsured.
And, of course, stupidity in some instances.
Once I read that Wells Fargo was the bank in this case, I knew the outcome would be obviously unfavorable to the customer. It doesn't care about having a good reputation because it learned it can make money without one.
364
FDIC provides insurance of $250K per bank account. Just thinking about numbers/scale here. If you are trying to secure $10 million in collectibles/coins you need to find another solution. The watch collector has to ask himself "What is my recourse if a bank employee empties my boxes? Or what if there is a robbery?" Sorry, it's his negligence. He needed to get creative in finding a way to hide/secure his valuables, there are many ways to do this. He's naive. Just because a solution works for a few years does not mean it will always work.
5
@Scott: FDIC covers funds deposited in an FDIC-insured bank account, but it does NOT cover items in a "safe deposit box" AT ALL.
23
@L
Hi L., I know he's not covered for that, just using it as a reference point for how much our accounts are protected for on a federal level. He knew the value of his stuff, and when that value is 40x the max coverage for a bank account some bells need to ring in his head. I feel bad for the guy since he's learning the hard way. When you have $10 million at risk you have to read the fine print and ask the right questions. The old saying...a fool and his money
2
@Scott
"there are many ways to do this..." Name one.
The fact is that placing valuables in a safe deposit box *should be* the gold standard for securing valuables. Banks have much greater resources than individual citizens to be able to protect against damage and loss than an individual would.
Are you suggesting that Mr. Poniz should have, perhaps, buried his valuables on a Caribbean beach somewhere, marking a big X on a map that he keeps stuffed between his mattress at home? Creative, yes. Effective?
15
Customers use safety deposit boxes for privacy as much as security. No bank has any idea what is or is not in a customer's safety deposit box. It is unreasonable to make the bank responsible for what the customer claims was in the safety deposit box if the customer never discloses to the bank what's in the box. This is open and shut.
10
@Jay Orchard: Apparently it's even more "open & shut" than many people think, since clearly the banks DO have an idea what's in at least some of the safe deposit boxes, based on the high-value items missing from many of those boxes, as detailed in this article and in some of the comments.
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@Jay Orchard The boxes that were described as being opened by the banks had inventories done by the banks upon opening and storing. When the customers got their items back the inventories proved that there were items missing. In those cases the banks should just pay up.
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@Bill
Obviously, when a customer uses a safety deposit box, it realizes that it is TRUSTING that the bank will not drill open the box and steal what's in there. But that's all it is - trust. The box rental does not make the bank legally responsible for what's inside. As they say, depositor beware.
9
Slightly off subject, but interesting. When I closed up my parents home and moved my dad to assisted living, I had to do something with their furniture and stuff that seemed to have some worth, so I sent it to storage near my town. Paid for the large wooden crate version of the infamous safety deposit box. And paid for some years. Eventually, I had some business with the storage company, and decided it was time. Turns out, as in Raiders of the Lost Ark, all the crates were numbered and the company lost its one, hand-written, little book identifying which was which. So they trashed them all to make room. I thanked them for the service, as they saved me a lot of work.
9
I stopped using “safe” deposit boxes back in the late 90s after the branch my box was located at remodeled. I went to my box and it was full of Sheetrock dust. It was clear to me then that safe deposit boxes were a racket.
24
Seems like safe deposit boxes shouldn't be used. An in-home safe is probably a wider investment.
But what this story really shows is the disdain that employees of Wells Fargo have for their shareholders. They're not wasting money uselessly denying their responsibility in court to make more profit; they're doing it so they can blame the mistake on someone else - the jury, the judge, the arbitrator.
When employees start throwing money away like this to deflect blame because, after all, it's not their money, there's only one thing you can do with the stock...
31
A depressing story about how little we can trust the institutions in our lives. However, if you have a rare collection of any type, you shouldn't keep it in a safe deposit box no matter how secure it is. Most antique items need specific temperature and humidity conditions. I would imagine there are companies that cater to the needs of high-end collectors -- they likely cost more than a safe deposit box in a bank.
6
These banks violated their own procedures time and time again; a safe deposit box drilling requires dual control - two employees who must verify the record, remain while it is drilled by a third party, record all the contents, and place them in safekeeping - all under their joint watch. It's telling that the mishaps happened on boxes that contained valuable contents; most drilled boxes are empty. Sounds like a few bankers need to do some prison time..
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I stopped using a safe deposit box during my moms hospitalization. I went to her bank with a power of attorney that the manager knew I had to retrieve some documents that I needed to ensure the hospital and doctor got paid. A gold watch that my grandpa had left to mom wasn’t there and mom didn’t have it at her home. The manager shrugged when asked and said “ well sometimes older people forget where they put things “ at that time my mom could tell you how many spoons she had in her silver drawer and the exact number of washcloths she had in her linen closet so I knew that she had been robbed and that it was going to cost way to much to fight the bank for only a family heirloom. I closed the box the next day and haven’t been back. I also took 375k out of that bank and separated it into two credit unions and bought a home safe
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Why would you put millions of dollars in assets, that apparently weren't insured, into a safety deposit box where you are still liable if they go missing?
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@Kohl - I'm not sure I understand you. Where else would you put them? I don't have millions but I'd sure love to know where to put what valuables I do have. All the suggestions about home safes aren't very practical for many of us. Nor do they strike me as all that safe from theft if someone knows you have valuables or from natural disasters.
1
This is an eye opener. Safe Deposit Box is no longer safe even in a bank, which our tax dollars went to great length to bail them out in the 2008 Financial Crisis. What else is new in America?
We only have three options: buy a safe for home use, build a safe at home, and rent a safe in a foreign country. It seems we are doing everything better than other country. So is our thief including unsrupulous banking staff.
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There are many unsafe practices at your local bank.
I’ve had a checking account (and many other accounts) at Wells Fargo for years.
My ex-wife ran up major debts on a credit card she fraudulently opened in my name. She then declared bankruptcy.
Since my name appeared on the account, one credit agency after another tried to collect from me on the debt.
They were able to get a judge to sign probably one of thousands of orders to garnish my checking account, the same one that holds my monthly federal retirement income.
My attorney tried for three years to recover the funds. Wells Fargo took no responsibility, the New York A.G.’s Office had political issues they were much more interested in.
I could afford an attorney. This happens often to people with no means of hiring legal representation. What do they do??
47
When some atrocity in the banking world hits the news why is it always Wells Fargo?
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@Michael Ryle
Those are just the ones we read about, because Wells Fargo has so often been in the news. But other large banks are pretty bad also.
5
@MimiGoogle the name of your favorite bank with the words rap sheet. You will be amazed,
1
@Michael Ryle
Wells Fargo is the #FloridaMan of banking.
3
This article alerts the readers to the safety flaws in "safe" deposit boxes.
7
The best line in the story is when Bank of America thinks it foolish for a depositor to believe their valuables would be safe in a safe deposit box. It is all part of our gaslighting culture today, where corporations, politicians and others will tell you with a straight face that the sky is black at high noon.
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@LIChef
Never imagined hiding stuff under a mattress would be safer than inside a safe deposit box.
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@LIChef
A number of years ago we were looking for a bank to move to and at the time all but one were totally awful. That said,safe deposit boxes are a good place to put your valuable/important stuff so you can't get at it
1
At least at Capital One you can get a cup of coffee.
19
Ah yes, the "banking industry". Where you give them your money for safekeeping and they charge you to get it back. It used to be the case that carsalesmen and real estate brokers were considered the crookedest of the crooked but now banks have taken the number one slot
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Since Trump is in the White House, real estate is top of the list again, by far.
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@Raven
They’re call “banksters”.
4
Bottom line of this story: one cannot trust a bank. But we all knew hat didn't we?
23
Another class act by Wells Fargo. Their logo of a stagecoach with a team of six horses is an apt depiction of the bank running away with your money!
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This story exemplifies that banks in this country are the real mafia. Not those guys with vowels at the end of their names.
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What else is new in America? Money talks and you can walk, and until people wake up and take the freedom and rights they are promised it will always be so.
10
There's no mention of insurance in the article. Can one insure valuables (whether watches, gold, jewelry, or cash) for a lower rate if it is kept in a safe deposit box? Or does homeowner's and business property insurance exclude item stored in banks from coverage?
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@Skip Lacaze Good point. I have a jewelry rider on my homeowner's insurance for some diamond earrings, engagement ring, etc. Would have gotten a lower rate if we claimed the items were kept in a safe deposit box. Lost an earring, was replaced by insurance with no hassles. The insurance is not expensive. For million dollar watches, maybe not so much.
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@Skip Lacaze some homeowner's insurance carriers do indeed offer lower rates for items stored in safe deposit boxes. It varies by carrier.
But carrying homeowner's insurance on items worth millions is still generally pretty expensive. That's why Mr. Poniz didn't have insurance -- back in the 80s, when he set up his boxes, the price quote to insure was huge. Now, there are a handful of specialty players that focus on insuring items in safe deposit boxes and storage vaults. (I quoted one in the story.)
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@Stacy Cowley
and who was that specialty player focusing on insuring items in safe deposit boxes? Sorry, read the article twice, maybe it just wasn't that apparent to some of us... thanks...
9
Very sad. For years I've been thinking about getting a box. Mostly for sensitive papers along with a few things of some value. Out of the question now.
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@Charlie: Get yourself a home safe - it doesn't have to be the size of a dishwasher! There are many safes that are the size of a toaster oven, and if you bolt one down to an immovable part of your home, you'll have your paperwork safely nearby, AND you won't be paying the bank every month.
Hardware stores sell these safes, or you can get one online from the usual online-retailers.
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@Charlie
I keep my will/poa etc. in the freezer. Jewelry? Only my next of kin knows where that is.
1
@L Couldn't a burglar simply cut an upper floor out with a reciprocating saw or break bolts out of concrete with a wood splitting wedge and a sledge hammer?
This is a very important article!!!!
I learned how bad boxes were years ago. I had a safe deposit box that only kept some papers, such as my passport years ago when I lived in a roommate situation in an apartment. A few weeks before traveling abroad I went to retrieve my passport, and the lock was jammed and the staff couldn't open the box. My key turned, but theirs for some reason could not. They said they would have to call a locksmith and that it could take up to 2 weeks to fix. It was within my time frame, but the stress of not knowing if I could retrieve my passport was too much. After that, I closed the box, bought a fireproof storage box and learned my lesson.
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@Hexagon I used a small fireproof safe at home for many years. Then got to thinking it was a theft magnet. Switched to a real safe. It takes two people or a heavy duty hand truck to move. So safe from most home burglaries.
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@Hexagon
The storage boxes are not very fireproof or waterproof. People in the recent CA fires discovered that. It is a real challenge to know what to do. Would you be a moving company would move a safe and you would get it?
I take pictures of everything in my safe deposit box each time I go and time date them. Copies of everything. Papers. I took out all the jewelry and have begun giving it to my younger family members now.
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@John
And there are usually bolt holes in the bottom of the safe for bolting to a floor.
I actually saw a wooden floor cut out so someone could remove the safe that was bolted to the wood floor.
Best bet, as big a safe as you can manage to put in and set in to a heavy concrete slab beneath it with steel bolts or threaded rods, embedded in to the concrete when poured or set with industrial epoxy like Simpson Set or Set XP or a JB Weld steel product.
Even if you create the slab as an albatross of weight that can't be removed without heavy duty tools that will do it, that is preferable to not bolting or bolting to wood.
A 300 pound safe with 2-400 pounds of concrete - 1 large bag is 80/90 pounds - attached, and in an awkward space will really help.
When I was unable to bolt a safe once, I kept an additional 150 pounds of weight in it to make it more difficult to move. You can get flat steel sheets cut to fit inside in many different thicknesses at a metal/steel fabrication shop.
17
A safe deposit box is an appropriate place to keep important documents, such as a will, life insurance policies, stock certificates and registered (not bearer) bonds. A prudent person would keep a photocopy of the contents separate from the originals.
When someone dies, it is an obvious place for the next of kin to look for such items.
It can reasonably be expected to be safe from fire and such documents are unlikely to motivate a low paid employee to steal them in the unusual event that the box is opened by the bank without the customer being present.I n the extremely unusual event of loss of the contents, (natural disaster, mass looting of boxes, etc.) the items could be replaced with some trouble and relatively minor expense.
It is not and never has been an appropriate place to store currency or uninsured jewelry or other uninsured items.
The customers who have suffered losses should have had their own insurance. It simply isn't reasonable to expect a bank, which charges only a nominal fee to assume liability for items that it has no knowledge of.
The article mentions the possibility of items being removed by family members who have access to the account without the owner being aware. It does not mention outright fraud on the customers part in claiming loss of items that the customer has otherwise disposed of.
11
@Mac NEVER store your will in the safe deposit box. Next of kin will need the will for probate. The bank only lets those who rent the box or have power of attorney to get in. Power of attorney dies with the renter, so unless you get in before the bank knows the renter has died, you can't get to the will. This is a lesson my father taught me. However, I also disagree with your saying the safe deposit box should never be considered safe. First, there is the name. Second, there is the vault with thick walls and door. Third, there are whatever security procedures the bank has. That it's turned out to be a misnomer is not the customer's fault.
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@Mac: You are quite wrong: a safe deposit box is one of the very WORST places to store a Will or a life insurance policy! In the event of the box-holder's death, it can take ages for the rightful parties to ever get access to the safe-deposit box. And the banks make that access excruciatingly difficult.
And if the Will contains any instructions about the funeral, fugeddaboudit!
The correct place to store a Will is with your attorney, with a copy of it in your accessible documents file at home (and many people have a safe at home).
32
@Macit is illegal to store US currency in a SD box, as you are removing it from circulation (M1 supply).
2
Sounds like these "safe" boxes are becoming an inside racket with nefarious employees of uncaring giant financial corporations (just like nearly every institution these merge-happy behemoths get their hands on). They shirk their fiduciary responsibilities, routinely overlook crimes against their customers and are able to avoid responsibility in the end by using lame technicalities as winning arguments, capping endless, costly litigation in apparently compliant courts of law. Eventually their resources crush the will resist of even the most stubborn individual that was unfortunate enough to believe that they had a chance for justice in the first place. After the corporation sweeps that annoyance under the rug they will spend lavishly on expensive advertisements to burnish their brand with supposedly trustworthy (but very well-paid) spokesmen spouting specious assertions about their excellent customer service.
40
@Gowan McAvity - Sounds like the tactics of a recent presidential campaign winner; wonder if there's any connection?
1
When I bought my first gold coin in the 70's, the seller solemnly told me to never put anything of value in a safe deposit box. Much later I read about Operation Rize, when the police came knocking and opened 6700 boxes, looking for criminal activity and extra cash for the Department.
48
I never quite understood why people used safe deposit boxes. I’d rather keep my valuables in a small fireproof safe where no one else has access. Banks have time and again proven that they are unreliable and care not for the average customer. Banks have become the vultures of the financial industry and I deal with them as little as possible. You’re much better off with a credit union. And forget the safe deposit box.
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@Mike L Good point. My take is that many people are trying to avoid the expense of scheduling valuables on insurance policies. Yet my experience is that "global" coverage polices extend to safety deposit boxes, and discount for this method of storage. I did not see this point raised in the article at all.
2
Mr. Poniz first mistake was trusting one of our large banks. Business people love to talk about integrity and ethics but let's face it, America has become a flimflam country. It is extremely difficult to find anyone who will stand by their word and take responsibility for their actions. And that includes big business, banks, attorneys, doctors, contractors as well as ordinary people. Many of them would love to pull a con if they think they can get away with it.
If you have a dispute with a bank or business, the standard playbook is to get it into arbitration where the bank or business will try to (and probably will) pick an arbitrator who is favorable to them. If the issue goes to court the bank or business will foot drag and nit pick each legal point to wear down the plaintiff. And this does not matter whether the bank is really at fault or not. They do this in all cases, large or small their fault or not. The bank might be in the wrong but they will never admit it.
It is a tremendous problem for collectors like Mr. Poniz. Where to store very valuable items? He might have been better off with a safe at home. We are back to the days like a hundred years ago when people did not trust banks. When I was little, people told me that my great grandfather hid his gold and silver coins in a box in the garden.
331
@Aubrey I remember stories from my grandmother who was born in 1896. She said her grandfather kept all of his money in gold coins, no paper, in some hidden access point he had built in the attic of his house. Never trusted banks!
26
@grmadragon
Thanks for your comment.
For some of our young readers, that was when the coins in circulation were made of real gold and silver.
Best wishes.
23
@Aubrey
It's a problem without a good solution. Storing things at home leaves you vulnerable to a home invasion and burglary. If thieves think you store valuables at home, your life might be in jeopardy. And it's more likely your home will burn then the bank vault.
But it's clear that a bank vault isn't safe either. I've always thought the biggest defense of a safe deposit box was that no one knew what was inside of it. Never show a bank employee what you are putting in there.
There are no good answers for storing valuables. Maybe just don't have any -- like me!
15
Wells Fargo, well enough said.
But the article is otherwise an eye-opener as far as the scale of the issue. No matter how many puppies, children, and non-traditional couples are in any commercial - trust none of them. Standing up for the customer and owning their mistakes left corporate America long ago.
643
Safe deposit boxes are popular in immigrant communities to hide cash from undeclared income (which one uses to purchase homes, etc).
Banks know that, rare are branches in these communities that don't offer safety deposit boxes.
14
@Yellow Moon Profile Picture And let's not forget the white collar criminals who do the same. Of course, they're not 'immigrants' - and in many cases are white, and not people of color. I would suggest there are far far more of those than the group this poster targets. Oh, and by the way - the group I reference are all descendants of immigrants for the most part. As are the great majority of Americans
37
@Sue
My, my, you're the one, not the original commenter, making the distinction between "immigrant", "white", and "white collar".
A tad defensive in the time of Trump?
2
@LdV A 'tad' defensive? You betcha' -
We all saw the biggest proponent of the Birther Movement at his rally the other night - as he drank in the glory of listening to his racist followers parrot what he'd said the day before - chanting racist, hateful, xenophobic comments directed against a member of Congress. And then watch as his fellow Republicans and apologists refuse to condemn those actions. We're on a path towards violence. This is an extraordinarily dangerous time for our country. We've watched as the 'dog whistles' from the racists in this country have turned into proudly shouting from a bullhorn. I'll give the person who posted that comment the benefit of the doubt - that their intent was not to single out immigrants. Due to the circumstances of my birth, I never need to worry about someone ripping my child from my arms and putting her in a cage. Or living in fear any time I'm approached by authorities. Or knowing I can never wear a dark hoodie, especially at night. My heart goes out to those who live in such fear. Those of us who care about others, regardless of where they're from, what they look like, or who they love - must be vigilant as we've never been before, to do all we can to protect those who need protecting.
"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"
4
Is it all about bank mergers and divestitures ? I was a customer of a bank which had a number of branches. I dealt mostly with the branch near my house, but I had a safe deposit box in a branch near my work. There was nothing valuable in the box, but I stored some papers there for safe keeping. So, one day I went to get a document from my box, and was told I didn't have a box in that branch ! After some digging, I found out the problem: the mother bank had merged with another bank and the two branches I used had ended up in different mother banks, my safe deposit box going to a bank for which I was never a customer. The article mentions "heavily regulated banking industry"; I disagree, banks appear to be able to act with abandon as they wish. What we need is a government bank, free from the profit motive. Anyway, eventually I did get my papers back.
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@eclectic
The article also mentions that safe deposit boxes are not regulated the way the rest of the bank is...
3
@eclectico Like your "government bank" idea, I think. On second thought, maybe not!
3
Ah, Wells Fargo. Another year, another scandal. This calls for another executive leaving with a $100 million severance package and another expensive ad campaign, telling us how much they care about us.
827
@K D P:
Yes, they can give a shady executive a $100 million severance package but they can't pay Mr. Poniz the $10 million they stole from him. Beyond shameful. My skin crawls whenever I see one of their ads.
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@K D P
Maybe that's why Wells Fargo has been 4 months without a CEO. Fired the last one without a new one to replace him. And it doesn't appear that they can convince anyone good to take the job.
30
@K D P
Makes you wonder where the $100 million came from...
6
Thanks for this article. I know Trump will read this and, as part of his plan to make America great again, he will impose strict new regulations on the banking industry so that this sort of thing doesn't happen in the future.
77
@Dan Frazier and it’s a good thing we have universal healthcare so you won’t have to pay much to remove the tongue from your cheek:)
51
I hope you’re being sarcastic. Trump doesn’t even read national security briefings.
11
@Dan Frazier
Trump.....Read!?!?!?
10
There is a distinction between renting out safe deposit boxes and offering a safe custody service. If Mr Poniz had persuaded the bank to take custody of a nominated list of watches, the bank would have been obliged to take care of them. With safe deposit boxes, the duties are more nebulous, if any. Partly, this reflects the traditional role such boxes have played in enabling people to find a "safe" place for items of dubious ownership or provenance. Typically the bank wouldn't know what was in a box until it had decided to drill it and remove the contents. Of course, failure of the inventory then taken to match what is returned to the customer shows that the banks do not behave well.
53
Banks say the demand for safe deposit boxes is eroding and a recent report from the industry I saw mentioned that usage by millennial and younger generation is significantly low but never asks why. It reflects the hallowing out of the middle class as when 40% of the population can't come up with $400 for an emergency expense, one no longer needs a safe deposit box. In my opinion Safe deposit index reflects the wealth inequality of the times.
Also no surprise here. Across any industry when regulation is lacking, the big corporations have huge advantage over individuals.
267
@ Matt: Millennials and younger people use safe deposit boxes less because they have almost nothing of value. Republican policies, including student loan scams, have seen to that.
191
@Matt. Yep, as I read this, I thought "well, at least I'll never have a need for a safe deposit box."
7
I wouldn't trust Wells Fargo to correctly put a stamp on an envelope, much less to manage my money or guard my valuables.
835
@L
Suddenly purchasing a very large Knack box with Medeco locks sounds like a more reassuring alternative to any bank "safe" deposit box. Placing that box in one's basement and then adding extra weights and bricks on the floor of the box and then placing one's treasures on top of that sounds more secure, cheaper, and reassuring.
9
@Marge Keller There is only one problem with keeping stuff in a safe on one's house in California (and maybe elsewhere?). Wildfires. Acquaintances of mine whose homes burnt lost all their jewelry and sterling -- the fire was so hot everything was destroyed.
5
"What drives banks’ conduct is regulatory oversight..."
Oversight that businesses, and their government collaborators, have severely eroded.
209
When you think about it, it's not surprising giant corporate banks aren't interested in safe deposit boxes. It's expensive vault space and real estate and requires the bank to hire someone slightly above minimum wage to manage access.
You would think, though, that it would become a business niche for other banks or even the self-storage industry, including more modern vaults and boxes that track boxes and access in a way that can be audited.
59
What is the point if a "safety" deposit box at a bank is truly not secure or protected. Time to get our stuff out of the box and keep it secure in our own household.
110
One more reason to do as I did: Bid a fond goodbye to Wells Fargo and find another bank.
391
@Roland DIFILLIPO.
Or even better, find yourself a good local credit union. I switched about a decade ago and I've never looked back. I even get paid an extraordinary dividend at the end of each year.
35
@Nick
I agree with you about the credit union. Since it does not have to pay a CEO millions of dollars, as it is non-profit, the customers reap the rewards through dividends. Our credit union has a low minimum balance required of only 100.00 for free checking. We left Wells Fargo over a decade ago and never looked back.
13
@Roland DIFILLIPO. Yes, and let your money disappear from a different institution
5