I wouldn't blame the mother for Perry's behavior. I have a couple of handsome 6' 4" male friends. They can get away with almost anything. Women have been shameless in pursuit of them. I think society creates men like Perry.
9
@Anti-Marx Shameless women, eh? What a fun take.
5
@AnnaT
In high school, at graduation, my friend, who was the captain of the basketball team, GAVE his girlfriend to the new captain of the basketball team. She was thrilled. Like property, she was just passed on from one big man on campus to the next one. She loved being seen as the property of the biggest jock on campus (we didn't have football).
Kendall Jenner has dated five NBA players, in the past five years.
You're free to view women as always being the victim, but you have to ignore a lot what women actually do.
3
Yes, there are incompetent lawyers. I had one during my divorce. Deposed for hours and hours with questioning worse than Celeste’s character. The X was never questioned. X’s lawyer bribed the judge. I got practically nothing. That courtroom scene was the first time I found the show almost too excruciating to watch; I know that flustered, panicked, anxious, rapid thinking feeling. It’s trauma being inflicted on an already traumatized woman. I hope she destroys Mary Louise’s entire life and being.
7
Google "Shailene Woodley spoiler", It leads to all kinds of conjecture!
I am glad that Jane had the intestinal fortitude to confront Corey about his visit to the police station, and the strength to cut him off after not being satisfied with his answer. I don’t buy his story for one minute, a person on the Autism Spectrum, as he claimed to be early on in their relationship, would not have looked so calm leaving an unexpected police interrogation. (Never mind tolerating the sensory overload of Renata’s party in the last episode). The police planted him, targeting the one of the “Monterey Five” they deemed the most vulnerable, but she didn’t crack as they expected her to.
9
@Amy Ratffensperger I think you might be right. It occurred to me yesterday that Corey's lying about not be an undercover cop. Can't wait to find out.
4
But if he lies when directly questioned about being a cop - isn’t that entrapment and any “evidence” gained therefore inadmissible? That’s what the movies have taught me about law anyways. I don’t think he is a cop- but he is someone who knew Jane was a “Monterey 5” member from the start and is quirky and not respecting Janes boundaries. Maybe a sweet misguided fellow but most likely bad news
4
Are we supposed to believe that Celeste's lawyer never asked one question of Mary Louise? What is Celeste paying her for?
12
The scene towards the end of this episode where Nicole Kidman is putting on her makeup was superlative. The sudden change of pace both in the episode and her character suggested something more than a simple make up session. What I could not tell was whether she was falling back on her last refuge to keep her kids, that of a put together, attractive woman and thus one our society and justice system will accept, or if it was something else. It turned out to be something else entirely as in the final scene we learn she was actually putting warpaint on. What a delicious bit of writing, directing, filming and acting.
26
There was an expression on Mary Louise's face in her apartment after she'd closed the door on Jane that I thought was infinitely telling. It looked to me like she was happy, satisfied that she'd provoked Jane into rage.
I think the character of Mary Louise is duplicitous. I think she's far more complex than we have seen up until now, more sinister. And that's why Meryl Streep accepted this role.
It wouldn't surprise me if she'd had a more direct hand in the death of her other son.
22
@Donna Marx
Mary Louise has an uncanny ability to unearth information about a person and then make some fairly shrewd deductions regarding that person's conduct and/or insecurities. She is not gratuitous in her provocations (usually delivered with feigned innocence), saving them for when she herself is being challenged (e.g., Renata and Jane), is trying to get a reaction (e.g., Celeste and Bonnie), or already views someone as hostile (e.g., Madeline). It also seems to be her way to deflect/deny the truth that Perry was a violent rapist, even when accepting that Ziggy is undoubtedly Perry's son. When it comes to Perry, the otherwise perceptive Mary Louise continues to have a huge blind spot, and I suspect that it was this very blind spot that contributed to Raymond's death and which caused her ex-husband to blame her for the death and to leave her. And yet, I think she genuinely believes that she is acting in the best interests of Celeste's children by seeking temporary custody while Celeste sorts out her various issues. When all this is laid bare during her cross by Celeste, and Mary Louise is stripped of the illusions she is clinging to, she will probably be more deserving of pity than anything else. Either that, or she is a manipulative sociopath . . . I can't decide which!
9
80% of the letters here are from people who don't like the show but yet keep watching it. If you don't like the program, nobody is forcing you to watch it! It's a television show folks. Stop over analyzing it and just enjoy it for what it is.
12
It would be much more accurate to say the complaints deal with certain aspects of the show. And brilliant actresses such as Streep and Kidman draw viewers even if reading an old newspaper.
4
How implausible was the courtroom simulation showing "this is what would happen if Perry slipped" and then showing "this is what would have happened if Perry was pushed" as though it were scientific fact? Really? I know it's a TV show, but come on!
Also, I imagine that the writers made Celeste's lawyer so ineffective to show that the legal system can be manipulated (by Mary Louise calling all the best lawyers -- which in reality is kind of silly and also implausible - would she really have had a full out interview with all of the good lawyerss?) so Celeste was stuck with a lemon who didn't know how to litigate but would lean on her to settle. But it does create a real arc - now Celeste can rise up in the the finale and do a killer job.
Somewhat contrived, don't you think? But we can't look away!
13
@Marianne A. Contacting other lawyers to conflict them out is a well known trick in the legal profession.
1
@Imperato But patently unethical and would subject a lawyer who got caught making that recommendation to a reprimand or suspension.
1
@Marianne A. Calling all the good lawyers in town is exactly what Tony Soprano did so his wife Carmela would have trouble finding a good lawyer when she wanted to divorce him.
1
Please can we finish this season I am embarrassed to admit I am watching, like a car-wreck. Why they brought this furiously-hackneyed character into the season, if not for Streep's interest, is beyond me - the wicked stepmother, the wicked mother in law, even the wicked mother superior, which Streep herself has done before, it's all so bloody un-original. This series has become more like an 80's nighttime soap of the rich-and-un-famous, minus the shoulder-pads and hair-spray.
4
@AMF *But* we can’t stop loving to watch!
1
Dennis Ohare questioning Celeste
about her multiple all-but-anonymous sex partners was, I believe, intentional irony by the writers. As a main character in many seasons of American Horror Story he has had lots of sex with lots of people, lots of ways. Choosing him as the actor to berate and tear her down may be a wink wink sly nudge by the writers for the audience to reflect on one’s freedom to express sexuality,
5
I loved the first season of “Big Little Lies.” I have watched the last few scenes multiple times. The nonverbal communication among the women when Perry appears is so well done. In the immediate aftermath, Madeline and Nathan exchange a look as they are embracing their respective spouses. I interpreted that look as Nathan thanking Madeline for protecting Bonnie, so I assumed that Bonnie had told him the truth about what happened.
I don’t think they should have made a second season, but that hasn’t stopped me from watching it. I agree with other commenters that the police would not waste time on this case and that the women should just tell the truth. Once Corey passed on to Jane the police line that the first person to come in would get easier treatment, I think they should have all gone in together. Maybe they will. Also why is the police detective sharing Celeste’s interview tapes with Mary Louise??! That can’t be usual procedure.
Finally something exciting happened at the end of this week’s episode!
9
Is this trial being sponsored by the homicide department? Are they paying Mary Louise's legal bills? The prosecution kept steering the questioning to the matter of Perry's death. I think this is a murder investigation masquerading as a custody hearing.
4
Nothing good lasts forever, don't they say?
1
The penultimate episode in any series, I have learned, is always going to be a bit of a mishmash. This one is true to form. I’m glad I made it through to see Laura Dern chew the scenery with her flame thrower of a mouth, though. Hilarious! Also liked the emotionally loaded scene where Bonnie excoriates her comatose mother (once again wondering why the director goes for a too-quick cut rather than holding the camera for a moment on Mom’s falling tear). The shaming questioning (burning at the stake, practically...I was waiting for the word “harlot” to come up) of Celeste in open court was, as others have stated here, absurd. But it’s all leading up to what I assume will be Meryl Streep’s big scene where it’s reveal that she is a...(tune in next week).
Whatever happens, it’s not looking good for those twin boys.
10
Why wouldn’t Mary Louise be on the griddle without Celeste having to demand it? They’re after the same thing but Celeste gets the National Enquirer treatment while M-L watches smugly from the peanut gallery.
10
@MJ2G, Mary Louise sued for custody, so that puts her on the litigant side and Celeste on the defense. Grandma has to make a case for Mom being unfit. Recognized reasons for that “unfit” declaration are: addiction (substance abuse includes alcohol and drugs, but one might make a case for sex addiction), abuse (whether physical or emotional), neglect (a mother who is an Ambien haze and can’t remember who she had sex with could be seen as neglectful of her young children’s needs) and mental illness (the sex addiction thing again). But the grandmother suing for custody would have to be approved by the court as a custodial caregiver, too. I know that Mary Louise’s finances, reputation and home would be examined, but I have no idea how deep the custodial investigation goes. I assume that Celeste is supposed to have a whopper of a trump card up her sleeve.
15
@Passion for Peaches and MJ2G, No excuse for Mary Louise not being called to testify except for Celeste's lawyer being lame. Even with ML being the petitioner and having the burden of going forward, for ML to not be called as a witness, for Celeste's lawyer to fail to present evidence - inexcusable. Looking forward to Celeste taking charge of the courtroom.
9
@Marianne Allegro, Celeste rediscovers her fierce lawyer mojo!
4
OK, the uneveness of Season 2 is making sense now. Apparently Andrea Arnold had the show taken away from her after shooting it, and David E. Kelley can't resist turning anything into a courtroom drama. Way too many editors and visions involved here:
https://www.indiewire.com/2019/07/big-little-lies-season-2-andrea-arnold-lost-creative-control-jean-marc-vallee-1202156884/
13
@Her Ladyship, I saw that story elsewhere. It does explain the choppy editing and unimpressive direction. But not the poor writing.
12
Why am I even watching this??? There is no way in 2019 a man as violently abusive as Perry - who was brutally attacking his wife and her friends like a vicious animal at the time he died - would somehow then be portrayed, including by his high powered corporate attorney wife, in the genteel way in which he has been characterized most of this season - but infuriatingly in the courtroom. I know it's a show - but this issue is too important to have handled so poorly - Perry was not a victim - that is clear. So why is a show by women for women allowing him to be portrayed this way all season? Not sure I can watch anymore after last night....
16
Few shows have ever wasted such great performers with such implausible, repetitive and cliched writing.
Renata turns a great actress into a cliche.
Bonnie's marriage is incomprehensible as her husband is a one-dimensional jerk.
Celeste's lawyer is a lazy, incompetent fool.
The judge makes Lance Ito seem wise and aggressive.
Jane wears that knit cap on hot days, inside buildings, on and on.
We need more shows with women leads, but we need talented people to write them.
36
@DSM14
Bonnie's marriage is incomprehensible as her husband is a one-dimensional jerk.
Her husband is a tall white guy who can't communicate well, just like her dad. She married a copy of her dad.
19
@DSM14
Apparently Mary Louise took her attorney's advice (albeit clearly unethical) and conflicted out every competent family lawyer in northern California. Celeste's attorney must be spending her time in court reading social medial. My last contact with family law was when I took the course over 40 years ago, and I haven't actively practiced any law in 35--and I could do a better job.
5
@Marlowe In the lawyer's defense, Celeste is a terrible client. She lies and obfuscates and refuses to take advice.
3
Well, I'm having fun! Do we have a season finale to tie these loose ends together, or a series finale to put an end to these insufferable characters? I anticipate an explosive cross-examination of Mary Louise (which I hope includes how grandma managed to coerce information from Perry's three minor children). It would be a handsome pay-off in the last episode if Celeste moves up the food chain from victim to redeemer.
I could watch an entire series-spinoff with an "unhinged" Renata wearing designer clothes around an empty seaside castle figuring out how to pay Gordon's debt and severance packages, but I sure hope the showrunners find a tasteful way to put Bonnie out of her misery. "It's the lie that IS the friendship" might not be enough to sustain her through whatever vision her mother gifted to her, or any deliverance she might expect from keeping a journal about homicidal fantasies.
Speaking of, was I supposed to find humor in Ed's confession to Lori that fantasies about revenge-sex is equal to their cheating spouses? That marriage is doomed.
No idea where Jane will find solace. Won't be at all surprised if she blows out of Monterey. There's gotta be a less chaotic town where Ziggy can surf.
19
@DavonaD, Jane is one of the many not-quite-right things in this story. Hipster-hippie Jane would be living up the coast in Santa Cruz, or further down the highway in Big Sur. Never in (the fictional version of) “Monterey” that this show depicts. BTW, the Big Little Lies Monterey is a pastiche of Monterey/Pacific Grove/Pebble Beach/Carmel, with a bit of Malibu (Madeline’s house) thrown in. I wish the show would make that clear because the army of BLL-fan tourists is ruining Big Sur.
11
@Passion for Peaches I know plenty of hipster hippies that live in Monterey. Jane in BLL used to live in Santa Cruz. By the way, I used to live in the apartment complex (now condos) that Jane lives in. It’s right on the beach at Surf Way in the Del Monte Beach Colony.
1
I'm not sure it's shaming. Slut shaming is mostly about younger people have premarital sex. It's mostly religious people opposed to premarital sex. Celeste is a fiftysomething woman with two young children who gets wasted and has sex with unknown men night after night (or very often). As a mother, one has different expectations for conduct. As a middle aged person, the same is true.
Celeste's fitness as a parent is what being judged.
3
And what about Perry's father?
8
Celeste's lawyer is one of the worst I have ever seen, on television or anywhere else. How can she not have brought up the fact that Mary Louise's fitness as a parent is relevant at the very outset of the proceeding?
I have no idea whether there is something in Mary Louise's past as a parent that would disqualify her, but even if there is not her deceptive behavior in having Celeste followed and photographed for months, the fact that Celeste caught her searching the house, and her attempt to disqualify other lawyers in the area from representing Celeste should raise serious questions about her character.
A decent lawyer would have called Mary Louise as a witness and questioned her extensively about these things. She would also have contacted Perry's father to find out what really happened to Perry's brother and why their marriage broke up. Had I been representing Celeste, even before the first hearing I would have asked Mary Louise and her attorney if they are prepared to have me call Perry's father as a witness to talk about why he left her. What a pity Celeste got stuck with that dolt!
26
@Mrsfenwick
Does no one remember that Mary Louise was instructed to contact the “ good lawyers “ to prevent Celeste from employing them? Even Renata was skeptical of the attorney’s ability. This might be a case where representing oneself doesn’t make you a fool - and sets up a reason for Celeste to take over.....
12
@Mrsfenwick I also wonder if there isn't something in Mary Louise's child raising that accounts for an adult son who beats and rapes women. Despite her warm, loving memories of Perry's childhood, it would be imperative to examine her past behavior before giving her custody of 3 small boys!
19
Oh, I think Celeste has a few things up her sleeve about ML. I think she hasn’t been wanting to engage in the same type of shaming behavior that ML has, but when pushed up against the wall, Celeste fights back. I’m expecting big things next episode—hope they deliver.
7
This show has become very silly and implausible. But still fun to watch! Looking forward to next weeks showdown! How do Renata and hubby owe nanny $72k in legitimate backwages? Do they only pay her once a yr? So many questions. So few answers.
8
@MAJ I want a whole spinoff series of Dern as Renata
2
@MAJ severance pay.
@TurandotNeverSleeps
Enlightened isn't all that different.
How much is Celeste paying this attorney who did not prepare her for questioning by a shark attorney, known to everyone to be the best around? This attorney who just tells her client to coast or to settle? I know there are lawyers like this - my friend had one get her the worse divorce settlement ever.
I believe Celeste's behavior since she's been in a depressed stupor since even before Perry's death. She can only feel alive in the few bleak moments having sex with the strangers. Something brought her to life now - I just wish this show wasn't turning into Boston Legal.
Again, I'm going to parrot myself when I say that a guy falling down a flight of stairs while kicking his wife should not be a massive whodunnit for local cops, who have limited time and resources to solve other crimes that don't involve taking on wealthy women who can hire pricey lawyers (who are crappy at family law but might be good defense attorneys). Perry beat his wife, and while everyone involved had baggage, no jury would believe that his murder was intentional, or even, frankly a bad thing.
What are the bubbles that Bonnie keeps seeing?
15
@Amy How right you are! Any decent attorney would have spent hours preparing Celeste for all questions likely to be asked on direct examination. If your client gets surprised by a bunch of questions on direct, that is because you, her lawyer, failed to do your job.
There are such lawyers, but normally they are the low rent type who don't spend much time on a case because the client can't pay much. That shouldn't be the case when the client is living in a beachfront home worth millions.
8
@Amy, Those are flashbacks to her childhood when her mother was holding her head under water
@Mrsfenwick plenty of incompetent lawyers around and they are not all low rent..
Meryl Streep as always has been fabulous. At first I thought why bring her in Then I realized how great great of an actor she is. She has me convinced she is Mary Louise. Then again, she had me convinced she was Julia Child.
50
@Michael J She's so good in this that I despise her!
24
@diane I so agree with you. makes me angry just looking at her!
4
@Michael J Yes, Streep totally channels all the creepy crone stereotypes; hate to love her, love to hate her!
2
Wherever they end up, Celeste's kids need to be enrolled in some after-school activities besides fighting with each other and snuggling with mommy. I wouldn't be surprised if they were still nursing.
21
I keep waiting for Celeste's lawyer to come to life. I'm hoping she's been doing some oppo research on Mary Louise that comes out next week.
6
@Her Ladyship, no kidding! I’d fire the woman. She’s useless as legal counsel.
6
I know, it's television. But those courtroom scenes are excruciating to watch. The questioning of Celeste about her children and sex lives seemed to be happening in an open courtroom, which would never happen. Celeste's good lawyer seems completely unprepared. And that Mary Louise wouldn't be as much on the table as Celeste? Baloney. The show is fun but annoying.
53
@Mary, I thought the questioning was so off-base that it was almost funny. The writers really stretched to make a sociopolitically edgy point. Grabbing into the tailcoat of the #MeToo movement?
5
@Mary No doubt. I’ve been to family court many times as a volunteer advocate for kids. The only people allowed in the courtroom are attorneys, social workers, advocates and family members. Who were all those people in the courtroom?
4
@Jennit varies somewhat by state.
Best line - the hapless, sweet nanny in bankruptcy court fessing up, ever so shyly to her “ stress relief” service.
Otherwise, please, the show is bad ... talk through it bad. Whatever the backstage drama is, the writing is turgid - we begged Bonnie’s mother to please remain in a coma through her daughter's dreary send off.
Bleh.
11
@SD Best line for sure. Gordon needs to be next to "slip" and fall down a flight of stairs! Go Renata!
13
@SD You got that right -- turgid. The plot lines are almost unbearable. What are the writers' goals, what tone are they trying to set? I can't tell. Anyway -- I'm looking forward to next week's showdown, hoping there is a satisfying resolution. Whee!
6
@Ellen
I agree with you, but I also feel sorry for Gordon. I mean, imagine being married to Renata! Seriously. Love her, but in small doses. Poor Gordon is one f—ed up dude.
7
Ira Farber's cross-examination of Celeste is designed in part to provoke and humiliate, but since the issue is what is in the best interests of the children, most of it is well within the bounds of relevancy. Perry was an abusive monster, but he is dead and buried, so it is Celeste's fitness as a parent that is at issue. And leaving your children to go hook up with strangers, bringing some of them home (where your children are sleeping) and then popping an Ambien is not responsible parental behavior. Also, while I respect the brutal honesty of Celeste's answer on the stand, her attorney inexplicably did little to protect her other than meekly objecting to Ira's most badgering and out of bounds questions. Of course, being TV drama, this will all work out in the end. Celeste will go from being a maddeningly passive witness to a bull dog cross-examiner when she finally gets her crack at Mary Louise . . . though seriously, no one got the bright idea to examine Mary Louise until the judge was poised to rule? The woman who gets her digs in but immediately retreats in the face of confrontation? The woman who has admitted that her husband left her because he blamed her for their son Raymond's death and who said she did not blame him? Ya think there is something to look into there, particularly when the son she did raise to adulthood was a woman-beating rapist? So whether Mary Louise breaks down or retreats into denial, her petition will be denied.
30
@Julio Sorry, but unless there is evidence that one of her sexual partners did something to harm her children Celeste's sexual behavior is completely irrelevant in this proceeding. It's not unlawful for an unmarried woman to have multiple sexual partners, whether or not she has children.
In regard to the Ambien incident, all that happened is Celeste took a perfectly legal medication as directed and had a bad reaction to it. Again, there is nothing in that to call into question her fitness as a parent - provided she doesn't keep doing it. There is no suggestion that she is a pill addict or anything of the sort.
Given some of the behavior that has caused judges in the real world to declare a parent unfit, this is one of the flimsiest cases I have ever heard of. In the real world a judge would probably tell the parties at the outset that the evidence is not sufficient and that they should reach an agreement about letting the grandmother have visitation with the kids now and then, that's it.
17
@Julio
If the person Bonnie really wanted to push was her mother, then the person Perry was truly in rage with was Mary Louise. The why is what we'll get to the bottom of next week.
20
@Will Flaherty, that’s so Freudian! We are all, at heart, angry with our mothers. Cue the thesis on Toxic Motherhood in Fiction and Films and Television: A Feminist Perspective.
All of the mothers in this series are toxic on some level, passing down their self-hatred to their offspring.
7
When I enter Hell, I'll be ushered to the world of Big Little Lies, where women bicker outside of big SUVs, clutching wine glasses.
Until then, thank God viewing this is not required by law.
9
Surely she's going through a "wringer," such as those that were attached to old-fashioned washing machines before they had spin cycles?
Celeste's lawyer is crap and I hope Celeste figures out that her mother-in-law likely set up the slut-shaming because she paid that bartender to sleep with Celeste. Mary Louise is incredibly manipulative and devious and Perry was the same; the apple didn't fall far from that twisted tree.
26
@Second generation
Celeste's lawyer seems naive. Why did Celeste go to court dressed like a high-end escort? She should have been counseled to dress like Mrs. Cleaver or Julia Child.
3
@Anti-Marx High-End escort? Seriously? Was it the simple black dress? The high-necked white frock? No...it had to be the demure blue twin set.
7
@Jenn
She looked wealthy and like she might be going out for the evening. I think that's the wrong look, for a custody hearing. heck, I think she should have worn a kitchen apron with fresh flour all over it. She SHOULD have dressed like a storybook mom. It was the wrong time to combat patriarchal expectations for self-presentation. Life is not a graduate seminar.
Last week I thought the cast was just coasting. This week however was quite different and rather enjoyable. Celeste barely made it through it was heartbreaking to watch. Dennis O'Hare is wonderful in his role. I can't wait for the other shoe to drop on Mary Louise. I know she is hiding a family secret. Did she know that Perry has always been violent? The death of her son I think makes that apparent. I think Perry did it and she knows it. His violence is nothing new to her and she can't come to grips with it. I look forward to her on the hot seat next week. Popcorn is ready.
28
@Margo Channing I wonder if Mary Louise was abused by her husband, which Perry witnessed and responded to by abusing his brother, and accidentally killing him. And when Mary Louise said it was her fault her son died, what she meant was that she should have left her husband before her sons became violent and/or victims of violence.
18
@jeanne maiden
I’ve often wondered this, too. I hope the ace Celeste has up her sleeve is Perry’s dad, actually.
18
@jeanne maiden
That would seem plausible. I'm really hoping Mary Louise gets what's coming to her. Such a mean and manipulative woman. The bad seed gene is now front and center in her grandchildren.
12
Finally we get to the little secret about Mary Louise and the circumstances of Perry's brother's death, which some of us have been impatiently waiting for. You would think Celeste being an attorney would have brought this up earlier and said to her attorney we have to bring up this matter in court and turn the tables on Mary Louise. But its TV...thankfully the show is moving forward.
24
@rose thank you!! I'm now hate watching because this show has been burying the lead since episode 2. It never occurred to Celeste's "you really should settle" idiot attorney to call out the fact that Mary Louise had a son die mysteriously (looking at you, Perry) at age 5 and another son turn into an abuser/rapist and no one's concerned what Max and Josh will become in her care? Riiiiiight. There's drawing things out for dramatic purpose and then there's having characters behave like morons and the latter insults your audience.
34
The season gets more illogical as it goes, even keeping in mind that it is fiction. Why would Jane go knocking on Mary Louise's door, for instance, given that her toxic personality is now well-known? Also, would running through a parent's one night stands be a legitimate topic in a custody hearing?
8
@David Godinez Well, I've never bene in a custody hearing but why would a one-night stand not be an issue in a custody hearing? Especially when the answer to "Who is that man you slept with?" is "I don't know, Mike Something" or similar.
4
@Kate
Explain the obvious connection between having a one night stand and one's fitness to parent?
5
@Kate No, this would not be relevant. Unless one of her partners harmed or frightened the kids in some way, her sex life should be out-of-bounds.
2