Most Americans welcome LEGAL immigrants, but do not want ILLEGAL immigrants. They recognize that the US cannot afford (or choose not) to support our own citizens: the poor, the ill, elderly, disabled, veterans, et al., and that they and other US taxpayers cannot possibly support the hundreds of millions of foreigners who would like to come here.
US laws allow foreigners to seek entry and citizenship. Those who do not follow these laws are in this country illegally and should be detained and deported; this is policy in other countries, too.
The cruelty lies not in limiting legal immigration, or detaining and deporting illegal immigrants, or forcing those who wish to enter the US to wait for processing. What is cruel, unethical and probably illegal is encouraging parents to bring their children on the dangerous trek to US borders and teaching the parents how to game the system to enter the US by falsely claiming asylum, persecution, etc. Indeed, many believe bringing children on such perilous journeys constitutes child abuse.
No other nation has open borders, nor should the US.
47
@Mon Ray
People who claim asylum are hoping for just that. They are not "falsely" making the claim. They may or may not have a case, but they have suffered terribly, are desperate, and hoping that there is a better future for themselves and their children. Poverty, hunger, and homelessness will not get them asylum, but who among us would not try to better our circumstance if we faced such a situation?
181
@Mon Ray
You talk about what US law allows. International law allows people to seek asylum. How do you know the people coming now from Central America are "falsely" claiming asylum? Do you have some sort of insider info?
192
@Mon Ray
good grief. that's right. blame the victims. the innocent children do not have a choice nor any control - they should not be victimized by the American government for mistakes their parents make. there are easy solutions to this problem but neither side of the equation wants to make any compromises to come up with solutions because their priority in the senate and congress is to get elected then re elected as many times as possible. that prevents them from doing the right thing.
52
First they came for the migrants...
21
"Progressives" aren't in favor of open borders, don't you know. They are just vehemently against any measures whatsoever that might look like we have borders.
This piece, NYT, is truly over the top. This author is for all practical purposes stating that we don't have a country. We have a patch of dirt and anyone can set their tent up here any time they want.
13
This shouldn’t be surprising to anyone. I can’t understand Latinxs who support the president. They’re like Germans and Austrians who shrugged at Nazi anti-semitism because their father or grandfather converted to Christianity so they weren’t Jewish, right? You think just because you have a piece of paper calling you a citizen that protects you from racism, ignorance and hate? How well did that turn out for all those Jews who failed he Mischling Test? Read a history book sometime.
29
Well so this happens to her, and she thought about hitting up FB to talk to to talk to the creature? ROFLROFLROFL On top of the fact she says NO ONE should be treated this way, and she is still gonna vote for it?? Well folks, Ron White was right. You can't fix stupid.
39
For some who have not bothered to read American history this may seem “new” but its not. Throughout our history, we, Americans have brutalized African-Americans with Jim Crows laws....notice the word “laws”!
We had the Chinese Exclusion Act, that kept Asian immigrants from legally migrating even though they found a way in!
Let’s not forget that the Irish were treated horribly, as they arrived in America, plenty of historical evidence of this! And....the Italians....because of their olive skin, were not considered...white!
Do I need to go on, America? Racism, which IS simply FEAR of “others” must be acknowledged in order for us to change! Calling a human being, ILLEGAL, IS dehumanizing a child of God, and for those who claim to be Christians YOU know one day YOU will face your God and He will ask....”How did YOU treat the LEAST of these?”
By the way, Nazis in Germany were also enforcing the ...law!
28
Cry me a river.
They should have deported her.
9
I was feeling sorry for this woman until she said she was going to vote for Trump again. You can't fix stupid.
28
If ICE applied the law equally to everyone, they would deport Melania Trump.
https://www.apnews.com/37dc7aef0ce44077930b7436be7bfd0d
24
This just goes to show the idiocy of trump supporters.
20
Short of death, NOTHING will prevent a Trump supporter from voting for this tyrant. He can strip them of their citizenship, threaten them with exile, terrorize their families, take away their jobs and they will STILL make excuses for voting for him again. Never again should Americans ask how Nazi Germany could happen.
34
The Germans could have told you this was going to happen, ah yes, most of those Germans living under Nazi rule are dead. So now history wants to repeat. Not in America. We need to corral ICE and DHS before their "leaders" (racists work everywhere) run a muck because the Pretend King's administration has allowed them to have a free hand over deportations. DHS is riddled with so called "Patriots" in the regional sections. They truly believe they can bend the law whenever they want because no on cares about immigrants. But incompetence also creeps in when these "Directors" intimidate their subordinates into filling their quotas for the day. Without the SS the Nazis could not have completed the "final solution". ICE acts alone without any oversight, with Barr at Dept of Justice even more lawlessness and mistakes will happen. The Germans under Nazi rule lived in fear of their lives. Let us see if the new SS (ICE) can show their faces instead of hiding behind masks and only working at night. We used to think that those who wore masks were terrorists now we have an agency doing the same.
12
She said going to vote for him again? Stupidity on the march.
19
"She intends to vote for him in 2020."
And THAT, my friends, is why we can't have a nice country.
I presume there are many Italians who would vote for Mussolini. We already know there are Hitler supporters, right here in The Land of the Free. If your own neighbors are colluding in our demise, what are you going to do about it?
21
I think ICE should practice on all the employees at all the Trump properties. Maybe they would learn something about due process.
1
That last line is laugh out loud funny, in a
Kafka-esque way.
5
"She intends to vote for him again in 2020." Jesus wept. And the phone agent laughing at her is chilling. People like that joined the SS and not just willingly but cheerfully followed the most abominable orders.
12
All this trouble would be avoided if each legal US resident had a national identification card.
16
After the ordeal this citizen underwent, she still believes in the cult of MAGA? I'm often left wondering, after hearing details of specific ways in which the monster in the White House has harmed specific people, what it will take for them to wake up. This case is no exception.
14
My children were born in England, this scares the heck out me.
7
How many false arrests occurred during the Obama administration? I actually don't know, but I'm sure , because we're human, some did. Falsely detaining someone is horrific, but perhaps it is a fact that mistakes will be made in an imperfect world. I hate to say this, but these terrible blunders are not Trump's fault. Deportation, in and of itself, is not deplorable. It is following the law.
10
Clearly, the USA needs a mandatory, nationwide, uniform, biometric ID system applicable to everyone, citizen, legal immigrant, legal visitors and everyone else -- whether here legally or illegally.
The biometrics would be reliable biometric ID markers unique to each individual --
such as fingerprints and iris patterns --
recorded in digital form on a central data base --
-- markers that could readily be scanned by police (including ICE), employers, banks, government benefits offices, health care providers and then transmitted electronically to the central ID data base for a match.
No need for "racial" classifications.
Also, no reason to store financial data.
Nor to store health histories (just the biological markers).
Unlike facial recognition technology --
which can "capture" facial markers from facial images
recorded at a distance in all manner of public and private situations on occasions unknown to the individual,
the markers would be collected only with the knowledge of the individual.
Of course, in many situations, the individual is
-- and ought to be --
obligated to identify himself --
to banks if he wants banking services,
to health care providers if he wants health care,
to government benefits offices if he wants government benefits,
to airport security if he wants to fly on airplanes,
to police if he wants police protection,
and to police in situations where police have "probably cause" to ask him his identity.
Just as now,
except with far more reliability.
6
Anyone working for ICE who isn’t a scoundrel should resign now so as not to be shamed and despised as they will be. It will happen because we will ferret out these bad guys.
7
ICE is our own Gestapo, created solely to harass and intimidate Hispanic citizens. Sure, there might be one Norwegian a year who is affected, but ICE is not looking for Northern Europeans. It is scouring the country--even rural areas--looking for dark skinned people to haul into court. We just had a man arrested in rural Minnesota coming out of a grocery store with no provocation. ICE storm troopers are domestic terrorists. MAGA-heads may rejoice at the thought that these thugs will rid them of "those people." But they are the spearhead for much more repressive actions if Trump is re-elected.
If Trump had his way, anyone saying anything negative about him would be in jail--or worse. I mean., Kim does it, Putin does it, Erdogan does it, Al-Sisi does it, MBS does it. All Trump's heroes do it, so by his logic, why can't he?
11
Ever notice your local police force dressing in black and getting or wanting lots of military hardware?
I have.
This is not a good thing.
10
“... and then they came for me...”
12
“all [the authorities] did was to guard the distant and invisible interests of distant and invisible masters”
― Franz Kafka, The Castle
91
@David Right on. Kafkaesque is the word for this whole ICE nightmare.
9
ICE has been a nightmare form the start, detaining many people indefinitely. And for what?
I find it hard to believe this woman has faith in Trump after her ordeal. My goodness. I feel for her on two counts: one for having been irresponsibly detained, and two, for being so misinformed.
I too, have been and continue to be in favor of abolishing ICE.
6
I'm astonished that she intends to vote for that bigot. But what makes her think she'll even be allowed to vote at all is the real question. She might end up back in a Detention Center over the weekend.
12
I sincerely feel for all the innocent people caught up in this nightmare, but Ms. Nuetzi's devotion to Trump makes sympathy a challenge.
We should abolish ICE along with the rest of DHS and start over from the ground up.
9
Change ICE to the Gestapo, and the Hispanic names to Jewish ones, and the article could be describing Germany in the 1930s.
Also, one correction. The detention facilities are not "concentration camp-like." They are concentration camps.
19
I have a very elderly relative who is a naturalized citizen and terrified ICE is going to round her up.
What can she do to protect herself from these lawless ICE agents?
6
@AJ Don't open the door.
6
Ms. Nuetzi got exactly what she asked for. What did she think was going to happen after that campaign? That ICE somehow had a magic wand to to know who the “bad hombres” realty are? Come on. These incidents were totally predictable. You have to live GOP voters of color who just don’t get it. I ask my Conservative friends if they carry their papers with them at all times, because they could be asked to prove their citizenship at any time by law enforcement. They just chuckle and say they’re white.
14
This appears to be the beginning of a police state. Instill fear randomly and then insist that the arrests and detentions are done to increase security.
7
My parents, grandparents, great grandparents, back to the early 1800s were all American citizens, but 15 years ago I spent several thousand dollars to get a certified copy of my birth certificate from the state of Ohio. I was born at home at the end of WWII, and the doctor failed to properly file a record of my birth. I'd always had a SSN and was able to get a passport in 1967 with an affidavit of live birth from my mother. When I inquired about collecting Social Security, the SSN and passport weren't enough. My 3 older brothers had to sign notorized affidavits, and each notary had to file proof that they were actually valid notaries. Then a judge in Ohio entered my birth registration some 64 years after it happened and I finally received a certified copy of my birth certificate.
9
I have a good friend who is living with a wonderful and caring undocumented man, the father of her child. He is unable to get a birth certificate from his country of origin because his mother can't remember when he was born, or exactly where. Do not laugh, in many countries paper trails are not so easily found or established. A U.S. attorney told him it would take about $40,000 to look into it and perhaps, just perhaps, solve the problem.
6
This article intrigued me because of how sensitive it is to certain people, such as those that have been unfairly put behind bars despite they are citizens. I agree that ICE has made mistakes in the past by wrongfully detaining US citizens, but I still agree with their premise of deporting illegal immigrants out of America.
11
When you follow the link to the reference Cato Institute survey, you discover that ICE canceled detainers or decline to make arrests in 0.9%n of cases. The implication is that this is the percent of case in which the people ordered detain were able to provide proof of citizenship. So, the ICE detainer accuracy rate is about 99.1 percent.
This does not mean that the unlucky 0.9 percent spent time behind bars because of the error. All the people involved had been arrested for crimes unrelated of their immigration status. Some would have remained in jail on the unrelated charges after ICE canceled their detainers. Some may have been held for a day or two after they normally would have been released, but we don't know how many.
11
Another instance of law abiding citizens punished while law breakers continue untouched. The government bureaucracies are notoriously inefficient and inhuman. Because so many many people now flaunt the breaking of immigration laws and court orders, ICE is overwhelmed, as result, the innocents are caught up by ICE and are slow to have their innocence proved
25
That’s not an excuse.
Oh the police force is busy. Stay 5 years in prison.
30
"Trying to make America whiter again"...cough, cough. As if going through the system, being a legal resident and ultimately a CITIZEN of this great nation means being "white". Please...tell that to the countless individuals from around the globe...of all races and ethnicities...who have waited on line, gone through the process and who actually cherish and appreciate what it means to be a contributing part of our uniquely American society and vibrant economy. Furthermore, once they're already in this country, ILLEGAL "immigrants" (cough, cough) are far less likely to obey U.S. law as compared to LEGAL immigrants who've gone through the system.
No, these are not random, door-to-door raids by “gestapo stormtroopers” demanding to see your papers” ….as the DEMS, The New York Times, juvenile pop-culture and the sanctimonious Hollywood celeb crowd would like us to believe.
The targeted individuals involved have already been screened, adjudicated through the system and ordered for deportation. I’d like to think that we live is a civil and orderly society where the rule of law is implemented fairly, impartially and a “arm’s-length”. Surely, what we DON’T need is chaos, bedlam, lawlessness and anarchy…with our judicial and socioeconomic resources at the Southern border being completely overwhelmed. This is SAD…very sad, indeed!
14
This reminds me of the old WW2 era movies in which people are asked for "papers." People who don't have them are arrested. This is the fascism we are coming to.
11
ICE claims that t hey are 'protecting our borders'. That's all well and good and I suspect that most Americans support that goal. But when border enforcement is placed in the hands of the sort of people who are employed by ICE one has to wonder if those who claim that a 'war one brown people' is ICEs real job aren't onto something. If that is not the case one can only assume that the denizens of ICE are little more than a collection of incompetent cop wannabes with a giant chip on their shoulders/
3
Trump has brought out all the things that I hate about the U.S.
8
I fear for some young Hispanic-Americans whom I know were born in the United States. Not only that they might be deported, but also that they will be left without their parents, though they are only teenagers, one still 12 years old.
I, a white woman, took my darker-skinned grandson, whose mother is East Indian, to Canada a few years ago. I had a notarized letter on my son's law office stationary stating that I had permission to take him plus his passport. All was scrutinized heavily entering Canada, but even more so when we tried to re-enter the United States. At that time, I thought they might be protecting him. Now I'm not so sure.
4
Child trafficking is a thing. They did exactly what they should do.
6
@Barbara The population extra scrutiny is due to the Flores ruling which was made in, I
think, 1997. It is meant to protect children.
3
So Tracy Nuetzi, after all that, is going to vote for Trump again. Makes me wonder if there is any hope at all of saving America and our Democracy.
225
@Ivan W
Exactly what I think. With all that happened to her, her need to keep track of important documents and deadlines, I didn't understand her thought process. If anything the system with tightened restrictions on Trump's watch is what caused her doors to close. If anything, she should thank the people at the State Department who helped her.
35
Based on this. It seems most likely that the proclamation made yesterday, that there are already sources of data more accurate than (you fill in the blank here) which already exist in government records which will accurately identify the number of people living in the US who are not 'fully documented taxpayers', is highly unlikely.
1
Rather than bothering immigrants, the US should raid the businesses which employ illegal immigrants, and fire and/or imprison the owners of those businesses. And give employers e-Verify.
The "elite," the oligarchy which Washington serves, is bi-partisan. They rely on the endless importation of cheap, desperate labor willing to work at or below minimum wage. This depresses wages across the service sector of the economy, keeps corporate profits high, and consumer costs down. Yes, unrestricted illegal labor is wonderful for the big "E" economy, the one that Mitt Romney cares about: GDP, corporate profits, stock portfolios.
But any progressive goal you can imagine, from "free" college, Medicare for all, functioning public schools, affordable housing, are all undermined by the endless inflow of desperate, unskilled, illiterate, illegal immigrants.
Making any other argument than doing what it takes to stop illegal immigration is making the oligarchy's cynical, corporate, argument for them.
8
@Livonian
eVerify is generally a voluntary program. Here is the link to its website. Read the first sentence of the second paragraph.
https://www.e-verify.gov/
In most cases, all an employer is required to do by Federal law is look at a "work authorizing document", like a Social Security card and get a completed I-9 form. Illegal "immigrants" supply forged Social Security cards that look as genuine as yours, and commit perjury to complete their I-9.
A few states have made the use of eVerify mandatory. ALL RED STATES. Here is a link to a map showing which states require it.
https://www.lawlogix.com/e-verify-map/
When several jurisdictions in California moved to make using eVerify mandatory, the DEEP BLUE state passed a law to prohibit any such ordinances.
https://www.latimes.com/local/la-xpm-2011-oct-16-la-me-e-verify-20111017-story.html
7
Blank birth certificates have sometimes been stolen. Not all states have enforced strict criteria for registering births. Some people have birth certificates from more than one country.
In September of 2000, the Office of the Inspector General of Health and Human Services issued report 0EI-07-99-00570, titled “Birth Certificate Fraud”, which concluded that "Birth Certificates Alone do not Provide Conclusive or Reliable Proof of Identity”.
Perhaps it is time for the federal government to keep a central registry of births and naturalizations and to issue reliable certificates.
7
Oh good Lord - the last sentence hit me with such force "and she will vote for him again in 2020". There is absolutely nothing that this president can do that will dissuade his ardent supporters from voting for him again. We can only hope that ICE erroneously deports about 40,000 of his supporters, preferably in swing states before 2020, and maybe this nightmare will be over.
17
The stuff of nightmares. Kafka would dig this. And to think this is all in the "land of the free".
7
Yup. I was born in Los Angeles - East LA, it is true, and I have been put on the bus twice - once at the Temecula checkpoint, and once at the San Clemente checkpoint.
For me (I am an anglo woman with money) with a passport card on me and my passport in the possession of my attorney, a trip to Tijuana means a night or two in Tijuana, meet my attorney at the border, and back home.
For a Latino woman or - heaven forbid, a brown skinned male without resources, I can see that even with papers it would be considerably more difficult to get back into the US, even if a citizen. They don't make it easy.
If you just get on the bus (assuming you are a citizen, have money, have an attorney, and have papers) you can come out it relatively clean. If you stand on your rights or try to assert your citizenship you can be in ICE custody for years.
And if you get nailed at the checkpoint, citizen or not, you generally do not get your car back.
4
I have been hearing stories about US citizens rounded up and actually deported by ICE since early in the Trump administration. A friend who is originally from El Salvador has lots of them. He has had a green card since he was a child, but his wife is, frankly, terrified this could happen to him.
I have been thought about how I would prove my US citizenship if I found myself outside the US without papers. I'm white and not Hispanic, but I am regularly asked for directions in Spanish. Who knows what facial recognition software could do?
My plan is to request assistance at a British Embassy. My father was a US Air Force office assigned to an RAF base for a year (before I was born). There ought to be records of his security clearance background investigation in the UK somewhere. And my parents are still alive so their fingerprints could be matched to the records and my DNA matched to theirs.
How is it possible that a woman whose grandparents were all born in Massachusetts has even had to think this plan through?
8
My kids are adopted, are at least 3rd generation Americans, but have darker skin than us. We have passports and passport cards for both of them because of the checkpoints that arise within northern New England and Southwest while visiting family and vacationing.
Think I'm paranoid? No, just prepared and prudent as this article details well how ICE is a bull in a china shop trying to catch a bug.
The last paragraph in this article shows how brain-washed and "radicalized" Americans can get. Security isn't freedom. But we do need to fix immigration laws, the current situation isn't fair for everyone - the undocumented, the documented, the naturalized, and native born.
94
A woman who supports a man who clawed his way to fame with the lie that Pres. Obama’s birth certificate was false finds her own life jeopardized by the same xenophobic paranoia. I read this article thinking I should feel sorry for what she went through, but all I could think was POETIC JUSTICE. Then I got to the end to see she *still* supports the fascists in power, and all I can think is I wish she’d had it worse. Why wasn’t she locked up for years with the other citizens ICE has illegally detained? People who clearly have no empathy for other human beings don’t deserve my empathy, either.
15
All of the cities that Trump's ICE Agents are targeting this weekend, have Mayors that are members of the Democratic Party.
The one exception is the City of Miami, but the Mayor there is of Cuban descent.
The Republican-Right-Wing-Network doesn't consider Latinos to be REAL members of their party.
Aren't there illegal immigrants in Wyoming and Kansas and North Dakota also?
3
Deciding who is Other is hard work if you want to do it well.
If you just don't care, it's easy work.
Because anyone with wealth or power can push back, so you have a failsafe system built into the system of privilege in the US.
If you're white but poor, you still have a pretty good chance of evading the dragnet.
Survival of the richest and most corrupt is a tragedy for us all.
1
The author states that "the agency has been a problem for decades," but it was created in 2003.
7
"she intends to vote for him in 2020..." what kind of insanity is this? trump is the one who put her in this situation, with giving ICE carte blanche to detain, deny and deport anyone who doesn't meet their demands. i felt sorry for this lady before the last 2 sentences of this article. now i don't.
9
I'm not an attorney but wouldn't habeaus apply here? Maybe not. This is like something out of a Kafka or Solzhenitsyn novel, or maybe a scene in the movie "Idiocracy". Certainly congress should have a look into this stuff, if it's truly as the editorial asserts.
3
I'm one of those anchor babies Trump loves to talk about. I was born in the U.S. of Canadian parents and therefore, hold both Canadian and U.S. citizenships. Over the course of my life, I have lived a total of eight years in the U.S. - half the amount of time I spent living in Belgium, one among the many places I have lived. I used to feel a measure of pride in being a U.S. national....but not anymore. These days, back in Canada for my retirement (and the excellent health care that does not seek to nickel and dime me to death), I wish I could be rid of this "other" citizenship. While I have many friends in the U.S., they know I am loathe to travel there. The U.S. is now but one election away from a State that encourages the denunciation of anyone who seems "different" either out of a twisted sense of nationalism or envious rage at the good fortune of others. A once great nation now turning into something petty, mean and small.
19
@Meusbellum
Either one respects and follows the immigration laws of a country or one breaks those laws, disrespects and mistreats the host citizens.
Just that simple and always has been for decades.
10
@Maggie Okay, but none of the people in the article broke the immigration laws of this country. So your point is...?
11
@Lex Spot on. Many will be the targets of either data that is dated, inaccurate or just plain wrong. Couple that with the overzealous actions of agents needing to please their superiors and we have a recipe for disaster-the disaster being innocent citizens being detained.
1
Passports aren't cheap. Neither are Homeland Security approved state ID's.
If you've got the money to spend, you can get those extra levels of protection.
You can also, for an extra $10 get a handy passport card that you can carry in your wallet.
3
The fact that I'll soon need those to travel DOMESTICALLY (thanks, RealCreepyID!), combined with existing highwaymen like TSA PreCheck, suggests those charges are protection money indeed.
And I'm not too fond of such mafiosos. The loser's the most ardent one I've seen yet after all. He takes thuggery to a post-satirical level.
1
This is one of the more hyperbolized articles I have read in the last 10 years. Pure hogwash. The author herself admits that similar mistakes have occurred throughout other presidencies. But the insinuation, as usual, is to put the onus on President Trump. ICE has a job to do and hopefully they will continue to do it well. Hopefully the US Border Patrol will be assisting with interior enforcement as soon as the border chaos calms down.
18
Estimates indicate 11 million undocumented people live in the US. These are illegal immigrants. The writer implicitly argues that because 1,000 or so US Citizens could be caught in error, ICE should not make any deportations. Seriously?
Also, saying the US detention centers are like concentration camps is incredulous. Has the writer been to Auschwitz or Birkenau? You loose credibility when you use such ridiculous hyperbole. I’ve been to both concentration camps and US detention centers. There’s no comparison. I’ve met people who survived concentration camps and not a single one has ever said they would again return. On the other hand, I’ve met plenty of illegal immigrants who despite spending time in detention centers have said it wasn’t going to deter them from repeatedly trying to enter the US until they successfully gained illegal entry. A detention center is not same, it’s simply an inconvenient obstacle. It’s politics and fear mongering at play that one would even try to make a comparison.
19
@CP
Estimates are 22 million illegals...for decades now. In the 1990s, there were 1 million legals pouring in per year and 1 million illegals pouring in at the same time.
Otherwise, spot in.
3
"Even American citizens are not immune from immigration raids."
Well, no worries.
All the citizens have to do is follow the instructions given to illegal aliens.
By the Speaker of the House of Representatives.
Standing up and actually instructing lawbreakers on how to evade arrest and prosecution.
It really doesn't get any better than this - in fact, no Republican strategist could ever hope for a situation that demonstrates more clearly that the Democrats are willing to burn this nation to the ground to get what they want.
But will an obstruction of justice investigation be forthcoming ?
LOL.
7
What has happened to our country?
2
@JRW
LBJ and Ted Kennedy in 1965 schemed to repeal perfectly functioning immigration laws that had held firm since 1930. They replaced that law with one of their own that was basically open borders and with preference to all the 3rd world + chain migration and anchor babies who showed up. Fifty years later, that 80 million flotilla has burst its rivets and has sunk the American system and American generosity.
11
@Maggie Read the legislation. Read the statute.
It appears you either did not comprehend the intent or are just relying on rumor.
I read both. I know what the real conclusions are, and what you state is far from the truth.
3
"Under President Trump, a wildly invigorated ICE has become an American nightmare, nothing less than the main thrust of an attempt to institutionalize racism against a scapegoated minority — undocumented, nonvoting, mostly voiceless brown people."
Unadulterated nonsense. They are people who broke the law. According to your profoundly self-serving and dishonest way of thinking, any action taken against these lawbreaker is "racism."
You make a mockery of the struggle for civil rights, and as someone of Hispanic heritage who had ancestors in Latin America, I find it offensive that you would twist enforcement of our immigration laws to justify crime.
19
Blatantly false. An expired fully valid US Passport still provides proof of US citizenship and can be used to obtain a new passport. ICE precursors provided numerous documents that prove citizenship.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/requirements/citizenship-evidence.html
13
@Chris: Since Ms. Nuetzi last traveled 48-years ago as a minor, I think it's safe to assume that the passport has been lost or destroyed. To renew, one must still be in physical possession of the expired passport.
9
Silver lining: perhaps if I get swept up in one of these raids they’ll send me to Canada! Wouldn’t that be nice - it’s everything the US aspires o be!
7
This story cries out for reporting on what the other side thinks is (or was) going on. What made her birth certificate invalid? How did they explain that to the unfortunate subject of the tale? Does ICE have a response when accused of making a mistake? Does it even have a hotline for people to call?
Next time you do this sort of story, ask a few more questions and get a few more quotes, even if it’s simply “no comment.”
7
Britain's Ambassador Kim Darroch was right, the US government is inept and dysfunctional. To make things worse, a lot of people are getting paid for not doing their jobs properly.
4
Just look at many police forces. The militarization of law enforcement and the privatization of prisons equals a virtual police state trend. Unchecked , welcome to a b movie version of a not so distant fascist horror show.
6
When you vote in support of a fascist government where the far right legislators of government refuse to correct the inequities of government you can not be surprised by the outcome.
All government issued ID should have imbedded chip information like your CC. Original issue easily copiable paper social security cards should have been regulated to the trash pin a decade ago.
But like everything in government accept the military starve the best is the order of the day.
2
"All government issued ID should have imbedded chip information like your CC. Original issue easily copiable paper social security cards should have been regulated to the trash pin a decade ago."
Credit cards, maybe. ID cards? Nopenopenopenope.
RealCreepyID's doing that, and adding RFID too, so that you can be tracked wherever you go, whatever you do. Pray you don't need an abortion or to protest getting preexisting-condition'd out of your health insurance.
We ought to be dechipping existing ID cards if anything. Leave their barcodes, at MOST. Perhaps the government can provide a website for one-time codes on demand so that SS numbers don't get stolen for good, which should satisfy banks and employers with ease.
Beyond those? NOPE.
1
"She intends to vote for [Trump]... again in 2020". OMG.
My immigrant (Eastern Europe) father would talk about the communists’ "knock on the door". He often said, "In America, there is no 'knock on the door' in the middle of the night".
No longer true.
I’m so glad he’s no longer here to see what has happened to the country he loved so much. He would be heartbroken.
9
As deplorable as this story is, that Ms. Nuetzi still intends to vote for someone that would pervert the US vaunted 'Rule of Law' even further - the kicker is that, well, y'all get what ya deserve. As for myself - it is a very very sad spectacle indeed.
3
This story essentially describes a secret police organization. A perfect operation for #45 who wants to "make America white again." No doubt he relishes the fear it is instigating throughout the country. It's exactly what he hinted at when he walked down that escalator whining about Mexican rapists and murderers and then shouted about a thousand times at his rallies, with his myopic white crowds chanting agreement. He's a wannabe dictator, and ICE is his army. Of all the many bad things he's done, this is the most telling. If the country doesn't wake up on this deal, we're doomed as a democracy and a civilized nation.
7
Sure, it doesn't matter if an American citizen gets rolled up...that's just the price this person had to pay so the rest of us can be safe...(sarcasm if you don't recognize it)
2
Ms Nuetzi has lost her country. She just doesn't realize it. She voted it away.
11
She plans on voting for Trump again.
4
ICE appears to be an unaccountable, out of control agency that needs to be broken back up into the separate agencies they once were, or at least put on a short leash by Congress. It's unlikely to happen while Trump is in office.
The last line of the article encapsulates Trump's supporters. The cognitive dissonance is strong in them. Truly, the concentration camp guards are running the asylum.
5
NYTimes please be accurate!! ICE was out of control under the Obama Administration. Check your facts.
6
How can anyone take an opinion article that starts by throwing around undefined, amorphous terms like "white" and "brown" seriously? The opening paragraphs detract from some very valid points.
14
After the election I made sure my whole family got their papers updated. Passport, birth certificate, drivers license and social security cards. We are all citizens- but I knew this was coming.
7
The answer is simple, fix immigration laws, implement a guest worker visa program with a robust tracking system. ICE isn't the problem, its a failure to modernize our immigration system that has created this scenario. Allowing undocumented immigrants to just stay because they're here is not a solution, its a prescription for populist outrage and social upheavals.
90
@Ron
For every complex problem, there's a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
Americans love "simple" solutions.
27
@Ron ... I agree with you , however, what is this immigration law fix?
@Maggie ~
Did we have those for the millions of Irish and Polish and French and ... who came through Ellis Island?
FACTS show that in the same demographics about family size and income levels and areas lived, illegals cost less than US citizens, since the illegals don't get 90% of the benes.
Some pay income taxes without refunds, and ALL pay the same sales and property taxes.
And as was mentioned in the article about Sweden, the NEXT generation usually are keys to an expanding and educated employment base.
17
My husband is an immigrant who has been a US citizen since 1992. When trump came out with the very first Muslim ban, we joined with ACLU, we got his naturalization papers together, made copies and have them handy. All his documentation is up to date. We have the local ALCU phone numbers in our contacts on our phones. Am I paranoid? I dont think so.
130
@Teddi P If he hasn't already done so, your husband should get his US passport. This is a very handy document to demonstrate citizenship, and it is rarely questioned.
14
@Teddi P ~ Until he mentions in this campaign that maybe he wants the names of the 2 million US citizens who are members of mosques?
He DID that last time around to harvest his voter base.
12
@Teddi P
Good for you.
And how is that any different from the country where your husband came from?
Or any other modern country in 2019?
The USA is the outlier when it comes to a sensible nationwide ID system.
So, when you married your husband, you had to learn a thing -- or two or three. Good for him. Good for you.
A hassle?
Maybe.
But not really such a heavy burden.
Just an unaccustomed one.
2
Many people here seem to be amazed that she still supports Trump. My question is why? Yes, she what she had to go through was terrible. Its not Trumps fault. Trump is simply trying to enforce immigration laws something that this lady obviously agrees with. What do you want here to do, vote for the other party that doesn't seem to care for immigration laws? Its not hard to understand why people support Trump in todays politics. The reason is not convenient racism...
7
@Bryce I expect her to actually do her due diligence rather than buying what she's told. And yeah, racism is a reason, let's not pretend it's not.
3
I'm a naturalized US citizen and I'm thinking I need to carry more documentation around with me, just in case.
When I was naturalized it was the Immigration & Naturalization Service. There were nice people working there, but many were snarky to me and downright rude to people of color (I'm originally from the UK, blonde and speak excellent English). The organization was inept even then - they had lost my file with all my paperwork from 1975 to 1997 when I applied for citizenship.
I had to get my fingerprints done 3 different times as they kept changing the rules during the time my application took to process. The third time it was an hour plus drive to go to the agency they'd designated as their official one. Always one more thing
I've never been arrested, I've always paid my taxes and can't think of any reason I might get detained (perhaps if I were caught speaking bad schoolgirl French somewhere?). But given the decades of incompetence in various immigration agencies, what protection does that offer me?
Apparently we are now giving immigration judges quotas of cases to hear - sounds more like rules for a warehouse worker at Amazon than a way to run immigration hearings.
As a white, English-speaking immigrant, I no longer feel safe from our immigration agencies - they're out of control.
9
The US government is incapable of managing the border.....always has been. Our criminal justice system is error prone as well up to executions. Look at our performance in Afghanistan or Iraq. Since the border and rejection by immigration is more likely than not a life or death decision for a baby that is at risk for malnutrition and death from disease can we really in good faith condemn little children to death by rejecting any migrant? As badly managed as it is the border should be abandoned. The US needs willing migrants to send their kids to school and provide housekeeping and menial services for the native US citizens doing jobs they do not want to do.
2
.....I’m especially troubled by the articles ending...she will vote for Trump again in 2020.
2
@Angelo C.
30% of latinos and 10% of blacks voted for Trump in 2016. He promised to repeal abortion rights, to take SCOTUS hostage, to enforce a national hatred of females and gays. Evangelicals and Catholics are on board with that. Have been since the 1980s.
When the first few paragraphs include remarks such as: "the main thrust of an attempt to institutionalize racism" and "main instrument for the dirty work of trying to make America whiter again" are deliberately couching this enforcement of the law in terms of racism, the government and the American people are done a great disservice. By and large, we are not a racist nation; by now one would think that unfounded accusations of racism would have become as patently transparent to the masses as they are to the thoughtful; and that someone at the NYTimes would point out the cheapening of the racist label as a result. But no. The government has the obligation/duty to enforce the nation's laws, which duty is part and parcel of keeping us safe, and which is at the core of national sovereignty. Sure, mistakes are made; overzealous employees may exercise poor judgment. But please, stop stirring the pot by appealing to the generally tossed about intellectually lazy "explanation" of racism; look for the other, more logical, reasonable explanations, try exploring those first. Crying racism at every turn is a discussion ender.
10
@PWD This country was literally built on racism. It's in the very molecules of our society. That doesn't have to end the discussion, you just end it there because you can't admit to the truth of it. It's exhausting to keep having to pretend racism is just cross burning and sheet wearing.
3
Certainly, NYC is segregated due to the policies enacted by the Democrats the voters there have elected...Not by Trump..The voters wanted segregation, they got it...Whether they voted for segregation to protect their property values and schools or they simply racists is debateable...Is gentrification racist too?
1
@Kate Kate there can be no discussion of the merits, i.e., the substance, of any topic, when the first and main response is to simply say, racist, or racism. It’s a fundamental sidestepping of substance in order to inflame and to avoid dealing with the issues at hand. It shuts down thoughtful discussion of weighty considerations, and fundamentally reduces everything to that, as if nothing else exists beyond racism. Intellectually lazy.
I have no sympathy for that woman, who still, after being so terribly mistreated, intends to vote for the man who makes her mistreatment possible.
4
Seems like a typical government bureaucracy to me.
4
As I read this, I thought it was just another horror story regarding Trump/ICE, that was, until I got to the end where there was a triple horror story: after all this, Ms. Nuetzi is still loyal to Trump!
6
“Collateral” deportations.
“Collateral” damage.
Orwellian language being used to camouflage the pain and misery inflicted on unintended targets... also known as innocents.
3
You have to admit, locking up a Trump voter feels pretty good.
3
Look, I am as horrified by ICE and the Trump administration's enforcement of our immigration laws as everyone else, but Ms. Nuetzi's case is not the one to get worked up about. The author is trying to manufacture outrage where none should exist. For starters, the author complains: "Never once was she asked for her Social Security number, which would have proved that she worked as a teenager starting in 1974." This is completely irrelevant. SS#'s are obtained by thousands of immigrants who are not citizens. Also, many immigrants who are here legally obtain a SS#, then their status expires and they become undocumented, but they retain their SS#. Many immigrants work. SS#'s do not prove citizenship.
Second, the article states that Ms. Neutzi's birth cert was "invalidated." I have no idea what this means and the author fails to explain. This is not a regularly used term to describe birth certificate status. In any case, is it so inhumane to ask someone who was born outside the United States to present an original birth certificate? No, it is not.
Finally, the reason Ms. Neutzi was forced to provide her mother's birth certificate and proof that her grandparents were citizens is because the law (passed by Congress) requires that people born outside the U.S. meet certain family and residency requirements. There is nothing crazy going on here. The other stories described do truly seem like horror scenarios but let's not manufacture outrage where none exists.
6
@Confused I have no specifics about this case, but perhaps you are not aware that if a birth certificate issue date is more than one year from the birth date it isn't considered valid for passport (and some other) purposes.
We adopted both our kids and made a huge effort to get the process complete and revised birth certificates issued within one year of their birth so they wouldn't have this problem later on. Both were born in the US to US birthparents, but that wouldn't matter if the certificate date was after one year from birth
7
check out South Africa folks. you do not have to prove anything there if you decide you don't want to have papers the only problem is you can't leave but you certainly can exist without burden of paperwork. the right to be anonymous if you should so choose.
1
@Claudine I doubt that South Africa is a nation many of us want to emulate.
The author seems to think that once a migrant has made it across our borders that he or she should be entitled to remain here for the rest of his or her life. What is the difference between this and our having “open borders"?
11
@ann
In response to past columns on immigration, many readers have noted that it is legal to ask for asylum, even if one has entered the country illegally. Do these readers also realize that it is legal to deport migrants whom the courts have found do not meet the criteria for asylum?
11
Any readers not seeing what is wrong about the cases shown in this editorial are what’s wrong with America.
They don’t rage against the employers who willfully violate the law and employ undocumented workers all to save a buck. They have programs where they can request workers legally (it’s called the H-2A Temporary Agricultural Workers, see https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-2a-temporary-agricultural-workers).
[And, right-wingers claiming California made use of e-Verify illegal, try again: https://www.fragomen.com/insights/alerts/new-california-law-penalizes-misuse-e-verify. The law signed simply states that you can’t use it however you want, like using it for existing employees, etc. WHICH IS A FEDERAL RULE (see e-Verify https://www.e-verify.gov/about-e-verify/questions-and-answers?tid=108).]
They don’t know the law and don’t see how it was violated by claiming that a US citizen was deprived of liberty and their rights because an ignorant DMV employee didn’t tell her to get a new birth certificate WHICH IS ALL THE PROOF YOU NEED TO SHOW YOU ARE A US CITIZEN (see https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship). They’re issued by states, counties and municipalities, not the Federal government!
Provide real solutions and not the latest Daily Caller/Fox News talking memo points about "enforcing borders" and "nation of laws" when you do this to US citizens!
4
The last line of this story, that a woman who went through what she went through, “Intends to vote for [Trump] again,” is as scary as anything that came out about ICE’s actions in the piece.
1
After her ordeal, she will vote for Trump again? Did she learn nothing?
2
If Ms. Nuetzi has a previous expired passport in her hand, the passport agency would not have told her to go to immigration. There was a miscommunication there
1
@John: Well, yes, but since Ms. Nuetzi last traveled on a passport 48-years ago as a minor, I think we can safely assume that the document was no longer in her possession, likely lost or destroyed.
This article should send shivers down the spine of any right-leaning individual, libertarian or Republican.
The fact that it doesn't should send a shiver down everyone else's spine.
3
Do we have any data on how many people that receive deportation orders actually leave? Seems like one of the first things congress needs to authorize is collection of data. Let's learn how many with deportation orders ignore them. Let's learn how many children are born to illegal aliens per year. Let's learn how many asylum seekers show up for their hearings. I think the results would absolutely shock the public. It would also make it much easier to set a clear path of action.
Why the heck are there 2000 people in the country with deportation orders? If absconding from these orders is a high probability, which collecting the data above would determine, aliens need to go directly from the courtroom where the order was issued to the airport under ICE guard. Stop the stupid charades, whose only objectives seem to be to find ways for everyone to stay forever.
8
@Djt Because they're not being deported. And no it wouldn't.
At minimum we should insist that those conducting these raids against peaceful families should wear body-cams.
4
My husband is a new U.S. citizen originally from Mexico. He is brown and has an accent. I make him carry a copy of his U.S. naturalization certificate in his wallet for this very reason.
96
@Jodie ... as if that will help him.
3
@Jodie Make sure you have another copy not on his person, because ICE has been known to steal documents from people to prevent them from demonstrating their citizenship.
14
@Jodie
That’s a shame.
My family immigrated from Eastern Europe circa 1906, but I still have relatives in the “old country”. They suffered through Nazi occupation and, then, Soviet occupation. During both occupations, my relatives were subjected to arbitrary “papers” checks and on-the-street interrogations.
I grew up understanding that “we don’t do that here” — not in the USA — we were free and had rights. Look at what we’ve become.
14
A person born in another country to American citizen parents has no document (without an expiration date) proving US citizenship? That is very scary in these days of aggressive ICE actions and the pilot program in Florida that pays a per person fee to counties for detaining potential deportees. The program is expected to go into effect nationwide. Anyone can find themselves ensnared in an immigration nightmare because of these bounties and the inaccurate ICE database.
The actions of ICE are not likely to change should Trump be turned out of office. Two American citizens (born in this country) were deported during the Obama Administration.
@Lynn in DC: Ms. Nuetzi did have a document that should have provided evidence of citizenship, her birth certificate, which was judged invalid. How was she to anticipate that a document she had used for her entire life to identify her as a U.S. citizen would no longer be acceptable?
1
@Allison
The article is not clear on this matter but I suspect she has a Canadian birth certificate. Her childhood US passport is what established her as a US citizen. When it expired, she was in trouble.
A person living in the US with an expired US passport and a Canadian birth certificate is responsible to get their papers in order. I know for a fact that officials in Ocala/Marion County can be lax about collecting or reviewing mandatory documents from the public but that is no excuse for failure to comply with the law.
1
I am an American of India origin, brown-skinned. I migrated to the US 40 years ago, earning 3 master’s degrees, a Ph.D., university professorship, and books to my credit. I am married to a white American, also a university professor. My wife and I frequently travel internationally, to attend academic conferences, or for pleasure. My experience during these travels in the last two years has been that I, not my wife, would invariably be stopped by ICE officers stationed at key points of the airport, and I will be asked a few questions, and a demand for ID.
I admire the US, more than the country of my birth, for the values it stands for. Despite the lofty ideals enshrined in its Constitution, and despite my higher learning and belief in the rule of law, I often feel insecure in my own country these days. My brown skin adds intensity to this insecure feeling. As a result, I always carry my passport every time I venture out of my house, even if it is locally. Card-carrying jews of Nazi Germany (or Indians in apartheid South Africa) come to my mind.
10
This is all part of MAGA. As an old blond, blue eyed, white guy I thought I was safe. My dad was from Oklahoma, my mom from Kansas. My brother and I just discovered that we do not have proper birth certificates, we have “certificates of birth” which can’t be used to get the new smart ID Card.
Oh, oh!
2
@Birdman This is nothing new. To get a passport you have always needed a real birth certificate.
Readers should be reminded that this is an Opinion piece. This is not a news story written by a journalist. These are not facts but rather the Opinion of the author.
4
This article will draw the usual onslaught of amateur lawyers who will shout ‘we’re talking about illegal immigrants and we just want the law enforced.’ Apparently it has escaped their notice that the Trump administration loudly proclaims ‘our laws are stupid’ and has chosen to flaunt the laws in order to implement draconian, exclusionary policies against people who are legally seeking asylum here.
I wonder whether any of the people remember, or were ever aware, how Hitler’s deportation of ‘undesirables’ began. In 1933, Germany enacted laws that declared Jews, gypsies and other ‘undesirables’ were ‘illegally’ in the country and subject to deportation at any time. ‘Illegal’ is what our government says it is; and when our government is ruled by the malevolent and unprincipled, who have no respect for human rights, bad things happen.
ICE and the ominously named ‘Department of Homeland Security’ are products of 9/11; as is the ‘Patriot Act,’ an ominously named law. Anti-terrorism was the pretext for the draconian enforcement powers granted to these recently formed agencies. Instead, we now have roving bands of heavily armed ‘enforcers’ rooting out ‘illegals,’ many of whom have lived quietly and productively in our midst for decades; many of whose only ‘crime’ is lack of adequate documentation — or merely ‘looking Mexican.’
We are inching dangerously close to the early days of the Third Reich. Will it stop here, or will we continue down the slippery slope of extremism?
On the contrary, ICE is completely accurate: arresting citizens AND immigrants furthers their merciless image so that everyone meekly carries their Papers (Please), scared to cross them to defend their rights. It's the same as how the loser trolls to look the tough guy, for the same reasons, and with the same bigotry behind it—and if you're still not appalled by ICE (let alone RealCreepyID!) and eager to abolish both, then you deserve the handcuffs those thugs will soon send your way too.
1
Literally not what 301(c) of the INA says [though on the facts presented in the article, this lady is a USC from birth].
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title8-section1401&num=0&edition=prelim
I had a direct confrontation in 2010 with two ICE agents at the Hartford Ct. federal courthouse on the 5th floor holding area.
My polish friend was incarcerated there and I needed her pocketbook and apt. And car keys to access her checking and savings account and get POA so I could hire immigration lawyers. It was a terrible experience and I escaped a taser cuz my 16 yr. old kid was with me. They kept refusing to give her access to her belongings . They demanded I leave or be quiet. I lectured them ,,,, two 20 somethings.... one 5 ft tall female w hate and her cohort ... a young male with his hand on a weapon. I was 58 at the time and I am less than five ft. Tall. My daughter kept saying Mom! Cuz of their strong threats against me as I yelled” this is a human being! She pays taxes and takes care of elderly dementia patients and sends money to her sons and parents in Poland. “I was still yelling obscenities st them both as they escorted us down an elevator into the lobby where a lot of lawyers and customers heard me . I had my husband on my phone at the time and he heard the whole episode from his desk at work. He was a state administrator at the time. He says he thought I was getting attacked. My friend was sent back to Poland with other Eastern bloc immigrants. She arrived here in 1992 and was deported under Obama policy in 2011 April.... She now works as a health aide in Britain. I will be attending a vigil in Hartford at ICE tonight Friday 7 to 9 pm!
Access “ Base Camp” !
46
@nurseJacki@l
I can understand being upset with this situation, but I can't understand how you thought yelling obscenities at ICE agents would be helpful.
4
The fact that these raids are announced in advance simply confirms that narrative that these are politically motivated attempts to put fear into people (citizens and otherwise) and NOT just to round up people who missed their court dates.
Remember how Trump berated the Obama Administration for announcing military actions in Iraq in advance?
1
This is baloney- She was caught in a juxtaposition because she didn't plan well enough. Her fault- Not ICE's.
4
This is how it started. Ask the Germans how it happened to them. We are in serious trouble and if Trump gets re-elected you can kiss democracy goodbye.
1
I remember just about 12 years ago before you had to have a passport to go to Mexico walking across the border to go shopping and get a bite to eat. I had my drivers license, Tribal ID, school ID, and a certified copy of my birth certificate just in case.
I have darker skin, hair, and bright blue eyes.
I was sequestered for three hours while they checked my paperwork. Tried to talk in Spanish to me, which I don’t understand, and quizzed me on my life.
I was not bothered by the experience, although once a supervisor came in and looked at my tribal ID he rushed me out of there. I was breaking no laws so I had no fear.
Now we have new agencies that have gone rouge and break the laws they are supposed to enforce. We need to get a handle on these agencies, when a US citizen is locked up for months for something that should take a few hours to figure out we have a huge problem.
Incompetent? Unlawful!
Our immigration system needs to be fixed, but one party cannot do it alone, big business does not want to stop hiring illegals so we see NOTHING being done. If you want to put a big dent in illegal border crossing start jailing company heads. Simmons and Tyson’s in Oklahoma and Arkansas are known for hiring illegals. As a kid someone would call and tell the factor immigration was on its way, we would watch people run to vehicles and speed away ten minutes later.
Companies breaking the law is nothing new, their profits come first.
1
My adopted son from Colombia was made a citizen by the mighty pen of President Clinton (since his mother and I are already citizens). Nineteen years later I need proof of that. How? No paper trail like that of my older son's naturalization process. It's been a nightmare. Republican efforts to fix non-existent problems have resulted in me not being able to sleep until he comes home after work. He's brown, undocumented, and in Michigan, ICE's authority extends to virtually the entire state. As a nation we have truly lost our soul.
5
I'm a naturalized US Citizen and over the last few days I have thought about just this issue. My Social Security number was granted when I had a J-1 visa > 20 years ago. A visa long-expired which would put me on a list. I'm not confident that the government agency that reports the list of Social Security numbers under this Executive Order will now be updated to note that I'm a citizen. I have personally experienced the systemic dysfunction at ICE - paper files (huge stacks of them), computer systems that don't speak to each other and overwhelmed officers. It's frightening and my heart goes out to people stuck in this machine.
6
The Left would be better served by working to fix ICE rather than trying to blindly dismantle it. No country can survive with out border controls. Dismantling will never happen and calls to that effect only makes the Left look shrill and short-sighted.
13
Would it be ok to dismantle it sightfully?
When we say, “abolish ICE”, we don’t mean cease enforcement of border security. This country enforced its borders for decades before ICE was created after 9/11 as part of Homeland Security.
Before that, we had the Immigration and Naturalization Service, INS.
The whole process is backwards. Instead of deciding apropos nothing that the status quo is invalid, ICE should notify the person by certified mail that they have been identified as possibly being here illegally. They should be given time to collect documentation and respond. If that documentation is deemed insufficient only then might deportation proceedings ensue. If sufficient, ICE should compensate the person for their time and unnecessary expense.
2
@James K. Lowden Exactly. I think most people are ignorant of the fact that ICE was only established 17 yrs ago. Before that, we had ways of handling these issues. Not perfect, but not this broken.
1
I’d like to remind anyone worried about this of two things:
1) You do NOT have to open your door to ICE agents. Don’t.
2) You do NOT have to answer any questions about your citizenship on the census.
Simply refuse to comply with this administration. After all, that’s what Trump would do.
10
I wonder why Ms. Nuetzi isn't in the featured photo for this article, as she's the main focus. And why she wasn't pressed for why she's going to vote Trump again, given that he's a lot of why she was in this situation.
6
And she intends to vote for Trump again. Speechless.
13
I agree with all those who express surprise that "Tracy intends to vote for Trump in 2020."
But the question that needs to be asked is "Why is she so loyal to Trump?" I don't think there are any hints in the article, so let me guess. What does Trump represent that is so important to someone that they would vote for him after such mis-treatment?
I suspect the answer is "abortion."
Most NY Times readers cannot imagine the hold that "abortion" has on those who oppose it. If you believe that a fetus is a human being from the instant of conception on, a being with a soul, beloved by God.... and that to kill that being is the most vile sort of murder.... the murder of a totally defenseless human being.... then almost any price is worth paying to stop that crime.
I don't think that Democrats have any idea how deep the convictions are that lead people to oppose abortion.... tho Tracy may be a particularly vivid demonstration.
Let's work harder at making abortion safe, legal, and rare. If Democrats are "the abortion party" in Tracy's view, those like her would vote for the devil, if he's a Republican. If he claims to oppose abortion. It's the ultimate "single issue" politics.... and those who believe this will not change.
5
Papieren, bitte! Google that and learn from history. The majority of us in the US were immigrants at one time, and perhaps our own papers were not in perfect order when we initially arrived. Immigrants today who are otherwise abiding by the law and seeking to better themselves and their families deserve due process, not the anxiety borne of ill-conceived profiling and raids.
2
Does the Times imagine that this case somehow translates into what our laws should be? Because sometimes an innocent person is arrested, does that mean we should suspend all laws regarding what is legal and illegal? Just throw up our hands and say, "Well, that's it!" If we cannot create perfect enforcement of the laws, then we simply cannot have any laws. Perfection is not an aim.
14
Much turns on burden of proof.
ICE simply decides, based on nothing, that so-and-so is not a citizen. As a citizen, all the person should have to do is tell ICE where to look. They can fetch birth certificates and naturalization papers. Geez, after all they looked up census data from the 1940s!
What is the point of arresting people without doing their homework? And why are mistakes just ok? Why aren’t people falsely arrested — based on mistaken information or negligence — due compensation?
4
And she will still vote for Trump. Some people just never learn.
3
@Victor Guerrero What's wrong with that? Innocent people are arrested all the time. Doesn't mean the laws shouldn't exist. Enforcement isn't perfect, but it is necessary. Its interesting that you seem to think minorities should blindly hate Trump for enforcing immigrations laws. Many immigrants support him for that very thing.
8
Let’s insert a little honesty, shall we? Illegal immigration would not exist if not aided, embedded and encouraged by American citizens. Ditto drug trafficking and human trafficking. The idea that law enforcement can be inconvenient to said citizens is rather obvious and hardly disconcerting.
5
Apart from the humanitarian problems arising out of these raids, it is sheer absurdity that a major democratic country like the U.S is unable to count the exact number of its legitimate citizens because of domestic politics.It does not speak well of America !
6
- she said she continues to believe Mr. Trump will “make America great again.” Some people like pain and suffering.
3
@Robert Benz Yes being in the greatest country on earth at the greatest time to be alive is pain and suffering. There has been no other time in history where its been better to be alive in the U.S. despite what your politics are
3
It is shocking to me that this woman seems to understand that her ordeal was a direct consequence of the man she voted for and his deeply racist policies but still supports him. I am truly mystified by this mindset.
5
@r.a. I am truly mystified that you consider these policies deeply racist when they are not. Its very simple really everyone is allowed to come as long as they follow our laws. Sure the process could use some work, but its how a country operates.
6
Great journalism.
As for one of the examples, it confirms a boast once made about how nothing would change the minds of supporters of someone who once boasted that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and suffer no consequences.
2
A superb case in point for why the USA needs to follow France and many EU nations with a National Identification Card.
7
@O'Brien
Never! Terrible idea.
It seems to me that anyone residing in the US has a presumption of legal status and the burden lies on ICE to prove otherwise. We have a name for that here: innocent until proven guilty.
8
Why is it these people never put the blame on the donald. They have no trouble blaming Obama or Clinton.
They cannot see the big picture; they don't put the pieces together.
As silly as this sounds, maybe putting together puzzles as kids is good for critical thinking.
7
@If it feels wrong, it probably is - Who's blaming Obama for this incident? Seems like you're reaching here.
3
The first thing I did - and I am not making this up - when Trump won the republican nomination was to get my long expired passport renewed. People told me I was nuts when I said he was the kind of person who would try to throw people he didn’t like out of the country. I wonder if they still think I’m crazy.
6
@WesternMass Yes. Mainly because that's not how it works.
3
I don’t think you’re crazy. I did the same thing.
Just wait until citizens are deported “accidentally” and we have another “collateral damage” conversation to normalize it. They are already taking aim at birthright citizenship. How long until one must wear a minimum number of patriotic items at all times to avoid deportation by ICE?
Today with smart phones and the internet, banking, credit cards, GPS, etc. there is little privacy. A simple solution to the illegal immigration crisis would be a national ID system. Oppenents to enforcement of our immigration law oppose national ID system such as E-Verify or Real ID Drivers Licenses. We need to issue secure ID's to every American or Legal Resident Alien and require they be shown when applying for a job or voting. Employers need to required to use E-Verify. We need to confiscate the property of any illegal immigrant who needs to be removed by the government.
2
@Michael Green: Why? The Employment Eligibility Verification, aka Form I-9, is already required for all new hires.
2
Because we have fake ID's and employers have no way to know if a person is who they claim to be. Though the real problem is we simply aren't enforcing existing laws and prosecuting to the full extent of the law.
2
@Michael Green: My teenage son just filled out an I-9 for a new job and accidentally transposed two digits of his Social Security number. The form was kicked back, delaying his first paycheck by more than a month, so it would appear that USCIS is, in fact, verifying the information submitted.
Edit: Never mind. The reason his I-9 was verified is because his employer uses e-verify. My bad.
Sorry but I have ZERO sympathy for the trouble Trump voters find themselves in.
6
Really, if after all she has been through she will still vote for Trump all I can say she deserves everything she gets!
2
My wife and I are white. Our children are adopted - from birth and born in the US - are brown skinned, brown eyed, and have jet black hair. We are often asked “where are they from”, which I believe is usually a totally innocent, although not a well thought out question. Such a thing we can navigate through most of the time. However, early in the Trump administration’s term, when this immigrant frenzy really began to ramp up, we were asked, once in line at a USPO while the children were with us, “are those kids legal”, and on a couple of different occasions in public settings, something to the effect of “are those kids American citizens”. Readers may be able to detect my uneasiness about current events.
I work in a business that serves the public, and in early 2017 a regular customer entered the building and looked over at my ethnically Latin American coworkerand stated “I take it that since you work here you are in this country legally”. She was about 45 years old at the time, was born in Guatemala, and her parents brought the family to the US some 40 years ago, to NYC where she was raised, and had long since been an American citizen. The customer, not getting any traction from his original query, then said “with that accent I can tell that you aren’t from around here”. The second question led her to believe she need to tell her whole story to him.
It’s not just immigration officials you need to worry about today. The white nationalists do-gooders will be fired up too.
6
@Floyd Sadly you can see that attitude in many responses to this article, which say well too bad that some innocent people are impacted, but ICE is doing what they must do. (The fact that those innocent people are mostly black and brown is not lost on me)
1
Trump will now try to use ICE for the same purposes as the citizenship question. It is to intimidate.
Many legal immigrants, citizens or green card holders, have family and friends who are not yet established. They don't want to answer too many questions. They don't want to list them with details.
The more the enforcement pressure, the more they'll try to help them hide. Churches will probably do the same, which I mention to show this is well meant by good people, not something shameful. But they'll hide.
That's the point, to intimidate.
2
A question, I wonder why her birth certificate was invalidated. Then she was presumably in the computer which should have showed all her prior renewals of her license and the documentation to originally get the license. This should have been resolved at the DMV level without her having to go through all the de rigor to obtain "proof" of citizenship involving not only her parents but grandparents. Having lost my own original birth certificate at one point I was able to, for a fee, obtain a new raised seal copy of my birth certificate from the original issuing municipality. I got two just in case.
So the lessons are clear, get a passport, keep it current, don't let your licenses expire, keep good records of your parents and grandparents and where you grew up because some bureaucrat who thinks they have a lot of power will deny you something you have a right to and the only real reason they are doing that is because they don't like your looks or your last name.
The lady here is collateral damage from the systemic problem of ongoing racism which apparently for some is just fine with them.
1
@Madwand: An overwhelming number of people in this country could not come up with $400 to cope with an emergency, yet now we're all supposed to run out and spend $110 each to apply for a passport, not because we expect to travel internationally, but simply to prove citizenship. While I don't disagree that a passport might be prudent for those who fear being mistaken as an illegal immigrant, this seems like an unfair financial burden, don't you agree?
2
@Madwand
The article was not clear on this issue. She has a Canadian birth certificate. It appears her parents provided the additional paperwork proving her citizenship when they obtained her US passport. She last traveled abroad at the age of 12. As an adult, a Canadian birth certificate alone is invalid when applying for a US passport.
1
This opinion piece should disturb any right- or libertarian leaning individual who has concerns about bureaucratic overreach and the denial of liberty without due process.
The fact that it does not appear to, based on the comments seen here, should disturb everyone else.
2
"It shows how fragile anyone’s right to live in this country is."
Isn't spreading fear & anxiety the point? A fearful population is easier to control.
I can believe that some of these ICE citizen detentions might be mistakes. But I don't believe for one second that that's all that is going on here. It's deliberate targeting of brown people, citizen or not, in order to drive them ALL into the shadows, de-legitimize them in the eyes of white America & "otherize" them all. Remember how Middle Easterners were treated after 9/11?
These detentions of citizens are also intended to strike fear into the hearts of anyone fighting for them, e.g., anyone providing sanctuary.
We have one of two choices:
1. Cave into this terror & retreat, or
2. Organize, organize, organize & redouble our collective efforts to fight for the rights granted to all under the Bill of Rights.
We must reach out to the Black community, the Latinx community, women, those fighting for reproductive justice, labor, students, family farmers. We must unite in coalitions with all who have a stake in beating back this effort to tear us apart, Our strength is in our numbers.
We ARE the majority,
3
So I see another reason reform is needed in ICE but I still hold that immigration law has to come with enforcement. Unchecked immigration is messy and impacts everyone. E-verify has to come into play -- regulate hiring fraud.
4
Yes, we are a country of laws. Since that is the case, accuracy in enforcement is essential to maintain the integrity of such laws. Some readers here have offered that we are a nation of laws or chaos. But this article suggests that the inaccurate enforcement of the laws is one source of such chaos! Why can't authorities take some time to fix the horrible mess that is ICE before such crackdowns?
4
So when citizens get a tax audit, that's wrong because they may not really have done anything against the law or did so without realizing.
The IRS should not enforce those laws and clearly be abolished for harassing citizens?
5
@CNNNNC
How is a tax audit, however unpleasant, comparable to being imprisoned for years?
Fixing this literally would take minutes in each case on the part of ICE.
5
@CNNNNC: When you are audited, you are not incarcerated and deprived of your rights while you gather the appropriate paperwork to defend yourself.
@CNNNNC
I am no longer surprised by conservatives’ lack of empathy and inability to critically think. All I ever seem to detect is one logical fallacy after another.
Equating tax audits (to which any tax filer, by law, may be subjected) with being swept up, arrested, and detained during a government raid is absurd... and flies in the face of “the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures...”
There is nothing “reasonable” about Trump’s ordering ICE sweeps/raids, looking for around 2,000 undocumented immigrants out of over 10,000,000. This is just a political ploy, meant to stir up Trump’s bigoted base, unsettle the tolerant left, and keep the news cycle focused on Trump and only Trump.
1
Very upsetting examples are described. Of violated people. Systems. Values. Norms. Ethics.ICE is "blamed!" ICE is but a system. And a range of governing systems are being enabled,even fostered, to weaken, pervert, damage, violate, ranges of interacting values, norms and ethics which underpin democratic governing.
How it operates, what it does, doesn't do, should do, shouldn't do, is the responsibility of people. Whether, or not, their actions are legal. Whether, or not, these people with names, addresses, human "flaws," are covered by... Or not!
Whether "I am just doing what I am told to do"- which was adjudicated at the Nuremberg trials after WWII;- "enjoy the power to do, with impunity, what I do..." Or whatever.
Nowhere in this descriptive accounting is there even a hint about what the viable options are for a reader, alone and/or with others, to effectively challenge systemic as well as individual HARMFUL personal unaccountability.
A behavior, value, norm, and ethics which the creators of the Constitution did not include, semantically, in their policy-vision for new-NATIONHOOD!
A behavior, value, norm and ethic which "Originalists" do not seem to think/feel merits concern in many areas of daily life.
In our evidence-informed, scientific based culture, once the story-(aka "DATA") is printed/available, turned into information to enable me to KNOW, and should I BE able to UNDERSTAND, and should I, somehow, achieve a state of WISDOM, now WHAT? Read the next article?
The images of ICE busting people out of their homes should alarm us deeply. The rule of law is undermined more by ICE actions and attitudes than the existence of undocumented immigrants. Police raids on homes where no other crimes are occurring are the actions of a Police State, that is, a state without regard for the human rights of its residents. When accept some practice our time as free people is winding down. Such an apparatus of oppression will not stop with this stigmatized group of people. Someone else will be next.
2
So we can't enforce our laws because an American citizen might be bothered? Maybe they are living with a person who was ordered deported and didn't leave, are they aiding in the law breaking and should they be charged? If we are afraid to enforce our laws what good are they, we might as well ignore all law. Either we are a nation of laws or of chaos. We will have to pick, sooner or later. Ignoring the lessons of history comes with a very high price.
83
what about holding employers accountable & prosecuting companies who employee those "terrible people". we all know it's easier and more political to blame the underdog. blame the fat cats who are getting rich on those "terrible people", that's the logical thing to do,but will never hsppen
89
@sob A nation of laws is a nation in which one is guilty only when proven guilty, a nation where we expect our government to follow rules instead of locking people up on mere suspicion or whim. Because we are a nation of laws, ICE certainly should NOT be able to detain people it can't prove are here illegally. Public prosecutors cannot detain me indefinitely until I somehow prove I didn't commit a burglary; rather, the burden of proof is on them to show I did. This is right and good. Otherwise, the government could disappear and punish people for any reason or none: for political positions, for hair color, for eating the 'wrong' cereal brand, for living in a neighborhood of 'questionable loyalty,' for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with breaking the law. And if I oughtn't be jailed for a burglary the government can't show I committed, I should not be jailed for the crimes of overstaying a visa or crossing a border illegally if the government can't prove I've done it. This burden of proof serves a very desirable purpose: it means we don't lock up those who are innocent.
This story shows that ICE, with its discretionary powers, does indeed punish the innocent. Of course the government should enforce its laws and police its borders, but if you can't show that somebody is a criminal then we would do well to err on the side of being a nation of laws, and not a nation of strongmen who jail those they merely mistrust or dislike without having to show cause.
406
@sob you call the guy who was wrongfully locked up for three years merely bothered?
Enforcing the law does matter, but there’s a right way and a wrong way to do it. If ICE scoops up a handful of citizens or green card holders in this jumbo raid, what opportunity are they going to have to prove they are legally? Mass detention isn’t exactly known for its precision.
152
Darlena dear,
These are two different things and please let’s not confuse them for the sake of everyone’s intelligence.
First, Ms. Nuetzi, has an expired ID, expired or no passport and no birth certificate.. who are you kidding ? How did she function? That is not a Trump, ICE problem. It is everyone duty to have valid form of identification. If this were to happen in Europe or any other country, the same ordeal would be true.
Second,the raid is targeting 2000 illegal crossers (from last year the most) who failed to show up in court for their hearing. Did they have kids that quickly ? Meaning they came to US to pop up kids they cannot afford to raise just to get a pass in staying...
And please stop spreading the false narrative that ICE will go after US LPRs, vida holders and citizens with no valid data
12
@Al: Ms. Nuetzi did indeed have a birth certificate. It was just declared invalid for unknown reasons. Her drivers license was simply expired, which is hardly uncommon. Many people forget to renew on time in the busy-ness of life. And not everyone has a passport. Nobody in my family does because we don't travel internationally, so there's no need.
Of note, nobody apparently asked Ms. Nuetzi for her SS#, which could have been used to provide additional evidence of citizenship. She's very fortunate to have had the means to hire an attorney to straighten things out.
8
@Al,
An expired ID is still an ID.
The date on it doesn't make it about a different person.
ICE has already gone after thousands of US citizens. That's not a "false narrative."
11
@Allison,
A Social Security card is not considered proof of citizenship.
2
The problem here is that the whole immigration process and bureaucracy is so broken. Ms. Nuetzi's paperwork was not in order at first, which can happen if you are sloppy and unorganized. That is on her, and it is correct that she was not immediately given a driver's license or passport because the authorities can't just take her word for it when she says she's a citizen.
But it should have been a very quick and easy process to clear this up and should not have taken 3 months. If you are arresting and holding people, then there must be an efficient, quick and fair system to evaluate each case.
As another commenter pointed out, the police detain innocent people (persons of interest) quite often, and nobody is suggesting abolishing the police. But you can only be detained for a brief amount of time by the police before you are charged with a crime, and the case has to go to court in a certain time frame. Clearly ICE and the whole immigration system is in dire need of reforms.
5
She states she'll still vote for Trump in 2020. I can't think of better person for this to have happened to...
9
Of course, Ms Nuetzi's cognitive dissidence is breathtaking, as other commenters have noted. Yet this is the sentence that sent chills down my spine: "These raids are meant to target those with children, increasing the risk of separating families"
These raids (and broadcasting of roundups by the orange menace) are meant to do one thing: instill fear and implement more cruelty. And as this author details, fear not only for immigrants and asylum seekers, but fear across the board.
In less than 3 years, we've gone from "hope and change" to "fear and hate". How anyone can support this is beyond my comprehension.
20
Insanity: “the state of being seriously mentally ill; madness.”
I.C.E. wasn’t formed by Donald Trump. It came into effect on March 1st, 2003 by George W. Bush under 3 heads;
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS)
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) &
U.S. Customs and Border Patrol.
Like any bureaucratic system, it’s like a virus without checks and balances. Our Founders knew about these possibilities of abuse and attempted to use checks and balances to make sure they worked. Some of these checks and balances are the three mainstays of our government, The House, The Senate & The Presidency. None of these are working correctly at present.
We, the people, have the responsibility to VOTE to make certain that they do work and work correctly, and if they don’t, to VOTE them out of office!
So–who is charging ICE to raid immigrants this weekend? You got it Lady! The person and party you voted for, and even worse, you will vote for them again? Like I said in the beginning of my response. Insanity!!!!
10
@Eric Cosh: that woman was and is a natural born US citizen and the story that her "birth certificate was invalid" is bogus somehow. I got a new Passport just this past year and I used an ancient, old creased-up copy of my birth certificate -- and an even MORE ancient ORIGINAL paper SS card (the one I got at 16 in 1971). The SS card could have been duplicated on any xerox machine, it has NO security features of any kind.
It was accepted, no questions whatsoever.
1
See?
This is why there's no way to convince Trump people to change. Discussion is useless. I am sure Mrs Nuetzi blamed Obama or the email lady for her ordeal.
14
@MD: Trump did not start ICE.
It dates back to the Bush era.
Obama did not end ICE in 8 years and two terms.
1
My husband is Mexican American but he was born in California, as were both parents and all four grandparents. Since Trumps election he is terrified of something like this happening to him and convinced that it is a real possibility. My white self used to think it was rather silly, that he was borrowing trouble from other people. But now I’m not so sure. He currently needs to get both his passport and his drivers license renewed and he is sincerely worried.
9
@QTCatch10: that is ridiculous.
Your husband is a native born US citizen. He cannot be deported for ANY reason, not even murder.
Most people need either a driver's license OR state issued ID (looks like a license, but no driving privileges). This is not expensive -- $25 for a DL, $4 for a state ID.
Usually your existing DL is sufficient to renew without other ID (since it has YOUR PHOTO ON IT).
If your husband does not travel, there is no need to get a passport.
It's a good idea to have at least one copy of your birth certificate stored somewhere safe with other important papers. In my state, a copy costs $17.
@QTCatch10: Quickly, if he hasn't done so already: go and get a new birth certificate from the jurisdiction where he was born that has the legal seal of that jurisdiction and get more than one copy with the seal.
Then get the enhanced ID from the DMV, and then get both the US passport and Passport Card, the latter which he should carry on his person at all times.
This is all you can do now and hope for the best.
I keep reading comments suggesting that people keep a current passport to prevent this from happening, but at $110 a pop, wouldn't you agree that obtaining a passport is an unreasonable financial burden to prevent being misidentified as an illegal immigrant?
Nobody in my family has a passport because we don't travel internationally, and it would never have occurred to me that I would need one given that I have a birth certificate, Social Security card, an official state ID, and have lived in the U.S. for my entire life, but now I'm left wondering.
7
My husband, my teenage son and teenage daughter and I obtained enhanced licenses and state ID so that we have proof of our citizenship on a card.
I encourage everyone to do the same in their states for security against ICE.
2
@Empathetic: If the EDL was available in my state, I definitely would, but so far only five states, including yours, offer them.
@Allison: you do NOT need a passport, though it is considered a rock solid ID.
I got one last year for the first time in almost 30 years. I had to send in a copy of my BC and photocopy of my DL and I think my SS card.
It cost more like $137, because there are handling fees galore. I agree it is too expensive -- used to be like $35!!!! they raised it with all the Homeland Security brouhaha a few years ago.
A driver's license and an SS card are adequate ID for almost all other purposes. If you are SURE you will never travel -- even to Canada -- then you do not need a passport.
I remember as a child in Ohio when our government first required all people to get Social Security numbers. Conservatives howled about the incipient police state. Only countries with tyrants required citizens to have IDs and numbers! My brother and I had consecutive numbers, as did my husband and his brother. And now, in my old age, we are getting that police state. ICE is downloading photos from drivers' licenses around the country. Surveillance cameras are everywhere. Anyone can be jailed simply because he is on an ICE list! No facts necessary! And once a native born citizen is finally released from detention, the courts say she has no recourse! Not to mention that Ms. Nuetzi favors this travesty of justice now that her rights have been restored.
8
I am 75 years old and a former Marine Corps Sergeant who served during the Vietnam war. I was born in the United States and never left this country until the Marines sent me over seas.
I am a citizen from birth and my parents were citizens too.
Why point this out? I've come to believe that law enforcement treats people with non-Anglo names and looks differently than they treat Whites.
I also believe, those who work for ICE have a stronger bias against Hispanics in general than the rest of law enforcement. They probably are not concerned about the lives they screw up when they scoop up people that look different than they do.
Think about sitting in a jail for no reason except looks and a name. What happens to your job? What happens to your credit score as bills go unpaid? What happens to family that depends upon you and your income? The damage is on going. We need to get rid of ICE.
266
@Tahuaya Armijo
No. We need to get rid of racism.
2
@Tahuaya Armijo: Many ICE officers ARE HISPANIC.
Which blows your theory.
7
@Tahuaya Armij
Like most police department, the Travis County Sheriff's Office sends the names and fingerprints of everyone it arrests through the Homeland Security Department biometric database to seen if they have outstanding warrants or ICE detainers. They do this regardless of race, ethnicity. They do it for detainees with Anglo last names as well as Hispanic last names.
3
Ms. Cunha apparently does not understand that the police also detain, arrest, and incarcerate innocent people all the time. Does that mean we should abolish the police ?
10
@Enough Humans
Of course not. To suggest that is absurd. We should abolish the agency that was created in 2003 that is menacing the populace. Not the police. ICE? Yes, it should be abolished. Police? No.
Not to difficult to sort these complex questions out, after all.
5
@Enough Humans
At least the police have some form of civilian oversight that itself is subject to public oversight. ICE was never constructed that way, and in fact has become an effective 'law enforcement' organization subject only to the whim of the president through the secretary of DHS. There is currently no legal oversight available from Congress.
It clearly is operating out of bounds. If not eliminating it (and starting all over), how would you propose to solve that particular problem? And if you think they're doing just fine, you should say so, in order to be properly ridiculed for lack of foresight.
2
The article did not call for abolishing ICE, so I’m not sure that your analogy applies.
1
This is what we get when the cruelty is the point.
13
Trump is using ICE as a political tool, a variation on the way the agricultural and food industries have used it as a labor control tool.
And it is also the way Nixon used the DEA to as an instrument of terror.
11
When millions game immigration laws in a myriad of different ways there will be mistakes made by ICE in some cases. Some have more contempt for ICE than for those violating our laws.
11
Yeah, ICE members are the real victims.
That Ms. Nuetzi will vote for Trump again is why the great American experiment with democracy and the rule of law is finished.
20
@John Merrick
Please be careful when you make such statements.
The party of Trump would like us to believe that the status quo will continue. Throwing the bums out requires votes, a lot of votes. Conceding defeat is no way to increase voter turnout.
1
@John Merrick, So, Nancy Pelosi is actually letting in Trump voters? Interesting.
Part of the problem is that many ICE workers detest immigrants--especially of the non-white variety--as well as their families. They do not care if their work results in the dehumanization or physical abuse of asylum seekers; nor do they care if their work inconveniences or severely disrupts the lives of American citizens in their path or threatens the status of legal citizens working here.
It seems that ICE has taken an almost genocidal approach toward asylum seekers--create a detention scenario so horrific that people escaping violence in their home countries would rather choose to remain their to die. And just for fun, separate familes, aggravate relatives who have gained permanant residency and go after even lifelong citizens to drive the point home that they mean business.
As for non-asylum seekers seeking employment illegally--solving that problem is simple. Start holding employers of illegal migrant workers criminally accountable, rather than allow them to pretend they knew nothing while they accept (and often facilitate the creation of) false documents, and then abusing migrants and threatening deportation if anyone comes forward. When companies DO get caught, the fines are so small that they easily profit off the continued hiring of illegal workers.
8
I agree. Hold employers accountable. It is fair and just, and very unpopular with people of means, many of whom have the babysitter, the housekeeper, the yard guy, the handyman. Even as they give lip service to wanting to deal with the immigration issues- they don’t if it means upsetting their lives.
Decent people must rise up. Put the employers, not the hard working moms and dads, behind bars. Or at least show them the heavy fines.
4
@Rhonda: the FBI warned 10 years ago of the increased population of white supremacists/nationalists into the military and law enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar patters in ICE personnel.
@Rhonda: first off....many (maybe HALF) of all ICE officers are hispanic or black.
Second: there is no mass death or violence in Central America. This is totally debunked. It is safer in Honduras than in urban Chicago!
Third: if you really enforce an E-verify mandate...all those 25 million illegals will be jobless....hungry, homeless and on the streets. Or go back to their native homelands, the places you say are mass-murdering them. So why is THAT OK?
She's going to vote for Trump again? I can hardly feel sympathy for her plight.
20
The last sentence is the most chilling. If someone who went through that will vote for him again in 2020, there is no depth to which the situation will be allowed to sink before his supporters change their minds. They will never, apparently, wake up. I guess events over the last two years have demonstrated this, but it seems like every day it's a new, twisted surprise.
21
@O: Maybe she wants to live in a nation with secure borders and a rule of LAW enforced?
And not "open borders"?
Also: her problem is something was wrong with her birth certificate. That's an awfully odd problem -- was it dirty? wet? faded? torn? -- and the author here did nothing to verify this.
1
ICE will be looking for brown skinned, Latin heritage persons to drag out of their homes at dawn. Does one really believe they will be looking for Irish overstays in Boston, or Brits in Los Angeles?.
16
I know a few, including illegal immigrants from Central European countries. They’re not worried.
@Not so bad hombre: that is because -- while I oppose Irish and British illegals 100% -- they amount altogether to 50,000 people.
Hispanic illegals from Mexico and Central America amount to 25 MILLION PEOPLE....and 10 million anchor babies on welfare.
However: I 100% agree "let's deport THEM ALL".
No exceptions.
1
She can get a new birth certificate if her birth is registered. Did she try?
2
@Chris Foy: about 14 years ago, I moved and managed to lose the only copy of my birth certificate.
So I went downtown to City Hall and got a new one. This cost me $17. (I agree it is too costly, since it is just a laser jet printed copy with a seal pasted on it -- not even embossed!)
I had zero problems of any kind.
The NY Times and CNN will document every example where ICE gets it wrong. If only they would do the same when an American citizen is a victim of crime in our own country by someone who is here illegally.
10
@cleo Many older Americans have difficulty obtaining their birth certificates, whether because of home births, poor record keeping, or hospital closures. Of course, this tends to affect those with fewer resources. It's a problem for voter registration as well.
7
@cleo: There are far more crime victims at the hands of native-born US citizens then there are of "illegals" so spare us the Fox News talking points.
Get mad at the people who employ the undocumented instead.
How many of the thousands of undocumented Irish have been deported from NYC? East Europeans?
7
@Max duPont Just because you don't read about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Oh, and it was Ted Kennedy who gamed the original Visa Lottery to make sure that 40% of all visas went to Irish natives (including Northern Ireland).
@Max duPont, 54 up from 35. There are estimated 50,000 undocumented Irish in America. Comparatively a small number compared with the 22,000,000 from Central America and Mexico.
ICEing someone will replace swatting them as a prank.
You tell ICE they are a non citizen illegally here and their nightmare begins.
I'm afraid to speak Spanish in public, and I look anglo.
7
“I could shoot somebody on Park Avenue in broad daylight and not lose one vote.” — Donald J. Trump
“I’m going to vote for Trump again in 2020.” — Ms. Traci Nuetzi
Houston, we have a problem.
25
That's because "illegal immigration" is a transparent veil that these people are using to justify their racial hatred toward brown people. None of these people bat an eye when the illegal immigrant is an attractive white woman like Melania Trump from Eastern Europe.
This entire "movement" is about persecuting people with brown skin, and little else.
16
@Samuel: Mrs. Trump is a naturalized US citizen since 2005.
I have seen no evidence she came illegally. She came here in the 90s on a "modeling visa".
This was long before she met Donald Trump, so she had no "protective status".
I have read SOME allegations she worked more hours or jobs than her visa provided for, and that this was a violation. If so, it is past the statute of limitations, and she is a citizen today, and her son and husband are natural born citizens.
HOWEVER....if you can prove Melania is in the US illegally or lied on her naturalization papers...I will stand with you and deport her.
NO EXCEPTIONS.
Ah, the old, “they all look alike”, ploy. Saves a lot of time sorting out the legal niceties though, doesn’t it. Oh, sure, some US citizens could, and no doubt, will be caught in the net, but you know how these people all lie...constitution? We don’t need no stinking constitution...PATHETIC!
5
trump has been very destructive to the fabric of our country by his deeply racist xenophobia ... sad for a country to have a leader ( trump does NOT deserves this title) who is so bad for the country and exploits the race card to appease his clueless supporters. trumps legacy will be as low as ne can go he may be between a mosquito and a cockaroach
3
Our American identity, our very ideals and foundations are being assaulted. This abuse of power is extremely alarming, and frightening. That Ms. Nuetzi still supports Trump adds an even deeper level of sickness to this orchestrated destruction. I used to have a flicker of hope that once Trump’s supporters saw how truly dangerous he is a lot of them would come to their God given senses. That hope is gone. These people have been collectively brain washed and Trump planned it just that way. Normal everyday Germans did the same thing when Hitler came along. Indoctrinate the masses. Those of us who understand this tragedy, and I think we’re in the majority, have a sacred obligation to speak out and resist. In the meantime, Tracy Nuetzi, what happened to you is deeply troubling. You deserve better. Trump’s machine attacked you and it’s unconscionable. What’s Trump going to try next....come after those of us who speak out? Wouldn’t put it past him to try. Well, in fact, he already has, (see treatment of the press).
16
Wow, this is now allowed to be officially printed in an op-ed? This isn't a quote, this is an official op-ed?
"ICE is Trump’s main instrument for the dirty work of trying to make America whiter again, without regard for family values, due process, human rights or even plain human decency. "
The New York Times is really sinking low!
10
@Eugene What do you call detaining thousands of US citizens based on their skin color?
What is an “official” op ed? It says clearly “opinion. “
Oped = opinion.
If you haven't figured out by now that the man who was endorsed by the KKK's official newspaper in 2016 is just as insane, autocratic, and psychotic as Kim Jong Un, then there's no hope left for the Republican party - they might as well dissolve since what they've turned to would be recognized by Lincoln as the Know-Nothing party, and Winston Churchill would probably find Trump's behavior to be eerily similar to another autocratic bigot who was considered our enemy during World War II.
To Mitch McConnell and the rest of the GOP in public office. We can see you.
The whole world can.
7
"Concentration-camp-like"?
Like?
Why the weasel words? They are in fact full blown concentration camps. Ther is no need to quality the term at all, particularly to satisfy people who are offended by it being used because we are apparently not quite depraved enough to just line people up for the gas chambers. Yet.
Be strong in your convictions. What my country is doing is wrong, and there is no need to carefully couch our terms to avoid offending the bad guys.
9
Perhaps we wouldnt have such a crisis if some folks in our own government werent incentivising foreigners to emigrate here illegally, instead of going through our immigration process.
And whos incentivising the masses south of the border to enter illegally?
Democrats say, we support a strong border (actually hardly anymore), but then say to foreigners - if you cross the border illegally and evade capture, we Democrats will welcome you to any one of the sanctuary cities we set up. Well give you a drivers license, protections from being deported, free education for your kids, and now even free healthcare! We even set up "immigration centers" in every city to help you navigate all that youre "entitled" to - like, dont forget to bear a child once your here. Thatll get you food stamps, medicaid, and even section 8 housing.
But no, really, we support a strong border. Wink, wink.
9
@Sports Medicine Illegal immigration is at its lowest in decades. That you can read an article about the detention of thousands of U.S. citizens and still talk about the open borders canard reveals that it's not really security you're worried about. By the way, tax dollars and facilities fees already pay for anyone who doesn't pay their hospital bills, right now, today, so the "free healthcare" objections are based on a misunderstanding of the status quo. Just say what you really mean, it's very apparent.
5
@Sports Medicine
So much wasted energy, words, thoughts and opinions on the immigration issue, when the heart of the problem about jobs and the ability for the lower and middle classes to make a living lies with the 50-year strategic plan of the Republicans to enrich the corporate sector and those that own it. As Law Feminist pointed out, all this hue and cry about immigration is really about racism - plain and simple.
But just like the Republican party long ago realized that they had to co-opt a bunch of social and religious issues on the right to increase their base because their true constituency of the very rich is very small, so too the racists have latched onto immigration as a way to advancing their agenda, and whining disingenuously about "lost jobs." I have to hand it to them, because it's been an amazingly successful ruse - but it becomes plainer by the day - so maybe it won't prove to be bullet-proof in 2020.
1
Is Joe McCarthy back in town?
6
The problem, which democrats and the media ignores, lies with illegal immigrants being allowed to use so many stolen and fraudulent documents and IDs.
10
When will ICE hold trump accountable for hiring illegal aliens?
9
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is right: Either ICE needs to be eliminated, or it needs massive reforms to ensure that it, among other things, follows the Constitution of the United States and relevant treaties. Right now, it doesn't, on any account, and based on recent news reports seems to be mostly made up of people who are there because they're prejudiced against Latinx people and want to abuse or possibly even kill said people. That's not a recipe for a lawful agency following the standards of human rights the US has repeatedly declared all countries should follow.
And make no mistake: The abuses ICE is inflicting are exactly what happens when one group of people is given absolute power over another group of people with no accountability whatsoever. Psychologist Philip Zombardo has written extensively about this.
6
If you have a passport - keep it current even if you don’t plan to travel. A 70 year old friend had let hers expire so she needed to get her birth certificate as well as a copy of her marriage license since her last name was different. That was an adventure! The government doesn’t care about your individual circumstances - they have boxes to tick and if you don’t provide what they need, they couldn’t care less. They are on to the next application.
3
@Collie Sue: it's no big deal. Your BC and marriage license are ON FILE at the City Hall of the city where you were born or married.
You can obtain this easily by mail. I have done so myself. No adventure whatsoever.
The problem is systemic across the planet. Until we collectively address more effectively the injustices, inequalities and violence people suffer within their own countries,... these individuals and families will continue the sensible response to try to escape said abuses.
2
The lesson I learned from all this years ago was to always keep a current passport particularly in these days of getting a star on your drivers license.
3
@Rich Murphy: So now we must all run out and spend $110 or more on a passport, in addition to having a birth certificate and Social Security card, to ensure that we are not misidentified as illegal immigrants? I don't necessarily disagree with you that it's prudent, but obtaining a passport seems to be an unfair financial burden, don't you think?
3
@Allison: no but passports are useful and considered "the gold standard". They last for 10 years, so that's $11.00 a year (or less than 90 cents a month).
You only need a valid SS card and a valid drivers license for 99% of stuff. I did not have a passport for over 30 years!
The time allowed for a suit against the Frderal or State government should be a very long period (50 years at least - and much longer for American Indians and African Americans).
The government has too much power and this power apparently is often abused. The least we citizens need is sufficient time to get justice. Though I do notice even the justice system is heavily tilted in favor of the government/police and the rich and the white. But at the very least the statute of limitations should not run out too soon in these cases.
2
Ms. Nuetzi and others in her situation are but the tip of an iceberg of incompetence & destructiveness that is on a collision course with our democratic principles. In EVERY department and agency of government Trump has installed individuals whose main purpose is to turn these public entities into vassals of the private sector. Career civil servants of high expertise are jettisoned so conflicted political appointees can ransack these agencies, give contracts to cronies, privatize public data for financial gain, and destroy the credibility of government - drown it in the bathtub in GOPspeak. For insight into what is happening behind the curtain in DC, read Michael Lewis’s excellent account of the Trump transition, “The Fifth Risk”. And then organize, resist, vote!
4
This is such an inaccurate talking point. ICE is actually much better than any other police agency in country when it comes to accuracy. Though obviously mistakes should be minimized.
5
@Keith,
"Better" is not good enough when innocent people are wrongly detained and even imprisoned.
And how about the Catch-22 of the imprisoned man who filed a complaint after the statute of limitations had run out, and was refused compensation — because he could not file a complaint while he was in custody.
So all ICE has to do is to unlawfully hold someone long enough so that they have no recourse.
8
@Keith: How can you quantify your statement "ICE is actually much better than any other police agency in country when it comes to accuracy"?
I worked up quite a bit of sympathy for Ms. Nuetzi — until I read that she intends to vote again for the person who was responsible for her nearly being deported.
When people who are victimized by the system continue to support it I begin to believe that "human intelligence" is an oxymoron.
15
When I lived in a different country I carried my passport and residency papers with me at all times. Any recent legal immigrants can do this and there are cards that can be ordered to use instead of carrying a passport.
Considering the immigration issues we have, anyone who may feel concerned about being mistaken for an illegal immigrant might just as well carry additional documents like a passport, it's just common sense.
Law enforcement can be inconvenient but it is necessary and there are good reasons why someone could be asked to prove residency status. Thankfully, cell phones are common and contacts can help with this process relatively promptly when needed.
6
@Margo Nope, the Supreme Court has ruled that a "show me your papers" law is unconstitutional, and certainly U.S. citizens should not be forced to obtain much less carry their passports. Calling this "common sense" is bowing to the notion that we do not have the right to exist freely. It's sad that so many are willing to hand over their civil liberties without question. To me that makes no sense, however disturbingly "common" it might be. Query where the small government, "liberty" loving republicans are on this one?
6
@Margo,
Being required to carry papers is the prerequisite for a police state.
Besides, Ms. Nuetzi's papers were not accepted because they were expired — bureaucratic nonsense, of course, since she was still the same person.
1
@Margo
This is a frog in boiling water argument, if I ever saw one.
What's next - "well, it's just common sense that you should report the lack of patriotism of your neighbor to the Patriotic Measures Agency because there are many reasons why they should know and measure the amount of patriotic energy in a given community."
My father died a few years before 9/11 but he used to say "you watch - all it will take is a significant terrorist event in our country and the freedoms we have seen over my lifetime will sail out the window ... or dribble away slowly - either way, we will lose them."
It's the slow, steady acceptance of an erosion of liberty and privacy that is most insidious, because it happens over multiple generations, and it's hard to remember when anything was different than it is now.
Trump exemplifies the "charismatic authority" principle.
Max Weber, 1922," On Economy and Society":
"The main features of rule by 'charismatic authority' consists of a proclaimed heroic 'mission" and the presumed greatness of the leader. The personal domination of 'charismatic authority' cannot coexist with an impersonal, functional legal-rational exercise of power which lies at the foundation of the ideal modern state system.....Such authority cannot become 'systematized' without losing it's charismatic edge..."
7
I am appalled by the actions of ICE and the conditions of the detention centers and the separation of children from their parents. If the detention centers are filled beyond legal capacity, where will ICE put all the people they round up on Sunday. What will happen to the children. Sunday should be a day of National protest in the areas most likely targeted by ICE. Fill the streets.
8
ICE should check with states and localities before they move on an individual to make certain that innocent people are not arrested and traumatized. In the event that state and local authorities protect actual criminals, then "aiding and abetting" comes into play. We must enforce the law or we will resemble the countries those people are fleeing.
1
Trump has said that he can override the Supreme Court to decide who is a citizen.
ICE is randomly deciding who is a citizen.
Stupid, racist white people (not all of us) are being manipulated by global billionaires, because they think billionaires care about white people.
The only color billionaires care about is green, but they are more than willing to feed racists the idea that they will get special treatment when our Constitution is shredded by the Party of Trump which attacks most of the Constitution, all of the time.
The Constitution clearly says, "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which
may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be
determined by adding to the whole Number of FREE PERSONS, including those bound to
Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other
Persons."
The Constitution clearly says that all "free persons" (with a few exceptions) are supposed to be represented by Congress, which means that the Founding Fathers knew that massive immigration was growing the USA and that those immigrants are not the enemy, but an integral part of the fabric of America.
The right has been scapegoating immigrants, using them to divide workers and our Union since the beginning. They blatantly oppose the language of the Constitution, but they know they don't have the votes to amend it, so they just pretend it says the opposite
Stop them.
9
Funny though: most Americans of European descent would not be here had the United States not had open borders back then: a boat ticket is all immigrants from Europe needed, even if they were completely illiterate in their own language, let alone English.
So, she voted for Trump. And, she still intends to do the same, so he can “make America great again.”
I believe psychologists have a term for this situation, I forget what it is. Not sure if it’s “cognitive dissonance.”
But, it sounds like some sort of denial in the face of the evidence. So, you can imagine if it was somebody who’s not had this experience: it’s virtually impossible for them to change.
It’s not new.
I believe it was noted in Germany, too, during and after WW2. Many Germans, even when faced with the evidence, just wouldn’t accept that wrong had been done, or change their view of Hitler.
She will not change, she could even be put through the same ordeal again, and she wouldn’t.
It’s sad and challenging the situation the country has to deal with now, where these organizations have really all but been turned into modern day gestapos.
But, to be fair, this started under Obama. Obama, the Nobel laureate, still has the record for deportations and probably family breakups from the US!
Yes, the Nobel laureate!
So, really, if Obama the ostensible quintessential humanitarian, a Nobel laureate, can deport this many people, what does one expect from a neo-fascist?
Obama, the Nobel laureate, set the foundation that Trump builds upon now.
Obama, the Nobel laureate, showed the possibilities of “cleaning up” America to make it white, “again.”
I love Obama, or at least I would like to think I do.
However, he made Trump’s current deportation policy possible.
8
nothing less than the main thrust of an attempt to institutionalize racism against a scapegoated minority — undocumented, nonvoting, mostly voiceless brown people.
Undocumented is not a race. Most of us who are white know what we all regardless of what we're called as often as we are and we're not stupid enough to buy all this constant browbeating from people whose lazy excuse for everything is always racism.
6
@John Doe,
Racism is real, it's well documented, and is acknowledged from the bottom all the way up to the Supreme Court.
Denying it just reinforces it.
so many people think the president (cannot say his name) actually cares about them....he does not....they get what they deserve.....
10
A vote for trump in 2016 was nothing other than a vote for evil, and trump voters deserve every single thing that comes their way as a result--deportation, loss of healthcare, loss of business due to higher tariffs, all of it. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. I do sympathize with their children, though, because they didn't ask for any of this.
As the saying goes: when you sup with the devil, make sure you use a long spoon.
16
Sorry Neutzi but there are thousands of Canadians who claim US citizenship and think that their 'whiteness' is all that matters.
2
Wow - perfect example of people voting against their best interest. MAGA? Hardly.
12
This is the first I've heard of this problem. Why is it in the opinion section. Reporters should confirm these facts and write pieces for the news section.
5
This is what we've come to in this cruel country. My partner, who is a third generation American, carries a copy of his birth certificate with him at all times because he has an Hispanic last name and the apperance of Mexican ancestry. He is 65 years old, born in Texas, doesn't even speak Spanish and never leaves home without his papers. This blatant attempt to make America white again is turning this country into a cauldron of hatred and fear. Wake up America, no one is safe from this heartless regime.
21
Why was her birth certificate suddenly invalidated? What changed?
4
It's true, no one should be treated like that. But you know what? You voted for the disgraceful party supporting these actions. If you watched trump, and you listened to trump and you you didn't question his character, and then you voted for him? You might want to examine that kind of ignorance.
14
Factually, the racial composite of America is more people of color than white. Trump is not using ICE to make America white. The statement itself is a gross example of race baiting by the author. What Trump is attempting to do is enforce the laws of this country. Something the liberal left abhors.
The new rules governing the issuance of drivers licenses predates The Trump Administration.
Airline travel has also changed its rules as to what constitutes ID as well. It is sadly the world we live in now. You cannot walk a loved one to the gate at a terminal and see them off nor put a full size tube of toothpaste in your carry on.
8
@George,
Trump is attempting to make himself a monarch, above the law himself but dominating others.
Claiming that the liberal left abhors laws is a silly falsehood that demeans the claimant.
She intends to vote for him again???
11
In a way this is not news. It was in 1987 that the comedian Cheech Marin made his film "Born in East L. A.," about a US citizen who is rounded up in a raid on illegal aliens and dumped in Mexico, though he's never been there and speaks no Spanish. It's advertised as "a comedy bordering on insanity."
6
The right hand of Trump is ICE. It is the enforcer and will do it's best to rid this country of anyone who is not white. Again, a cruel but also criminal act by our illegal, criminal president who must be punished for his crimes. His time is coming for an orange jump suit. A gift from NY.
4
If you have nothing to hide, why would you object to ICE agents questioning whether you have skipped out on a deportation order? Stop molly coddling illegal aliens. They are ILLEGAl, They broke immigration laws by crossing the American border illegally, thumbing their noses at immigrants who have played by the rules and waited their turn as my grandparents did when they emigrated from Russia. ICE is now going after those illegals aliens who have chosen to break the law a second time by ignoring a valid deportation order for criminal activity. How many chances at breaking the law would Democrats give illegal aliens?
8
@paul,
If you're an American citizen who has nothing to hide and you don't carry the proper papers, you could be deported.
Did you not understand that from the article?
There's a surprise: ICE reflects Trump's racist and xenophobic view.
4
This is a significant concern. Imagine you've been living in the US 3 times as long as you lived in, say, Canada, as a child, you're a naturalized citizen, and there's a pounding on the door. Off you go - maybe you take your passport, maybe they just hustle you out the door - they've got a list and a schedule to keep.
You get deported - now you're in Mexico (because it's closest, and most convenient for DHS) - you have no ID, no money, no phone, and you don't speak Spanish. What do you do?
I'd head to the US Consulate, and hope that in the usual bureaucractic fashion, the Department of State still thinks you're a citizen - and you throw yourself on their mercy as a citizen who was mugged and lost all their ID and money. But say that doesn't work?
How do you contact your family (who will hopefully work on rescuing you, and starting whatever legal proceedings are needed).
3
I prefer Inaccurate ICE over spineless ICE. All illegals should be swiftly deported. They know the risks of the illegal status, and do not do anything about it until caught. I have no empathy to illegals who in essence break the law by being here. Americans children, homeless and poor come first.
11
@lieberma,
The principle is that it's better that ten guilty persons go free than that one innocent person is punished.
You and ICE turn this upside down.
To punish the innocent in order to apprehend the guilty is both illegal and morally reprehensible.
“First they came for...
6
Actually first they never came for anybody which lead to this mess. Then they tried to come for people here illegally and they couldn’t even deport them.
2
I preffer Inaccurate ICE over spineless ICE. All illegals should be swiftly deported. They know the risks of the illegal status, and do not do anything about it until caught. I have no empathy to illegals who in essence break the law by being here. Americans children, homeless and poor come first.
8
This editorial shows the value of having Donald Trump as president. In 2013, the ACLU raised an alarm over the Obama Administration deporting US citizens. Nary a peep resulted.
"Yes, the U.S. Wrongfully Deports Its Own Citizens" (April 25, 2013 )
https://www.aclu.org/blog/speakeasy/yes-us-wrongfully-deports-its-own-citizens
Now, with Trump in office, liberals are at last free again to criticize a president - as many of us said would happen if he won the presidency. Glad that so many Americans are waking up. I called it The Trump Bonus. Will these outraged liberals go back to sleep after Trump is gone? Let's remember the sage words of the late Phil Ochs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cdqQ2BdgOA
History shows what will happen...
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
8
Yes, we know Obama deporte millions! Which makes the Conservative LIE about “Liberals wanting open borders” ridiculous!!!
And YES, it was reported!
@Mari: Please read my comment again. While it was widely reported that Obama deported more people than all previous presidents combined, what remained under-reported were Obama's deportations of American citizens - even natural born citizens as opposed to naturalized immigrants - and military combat veterans.
http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=1248
Only several obscure websites covered that.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
2
Like others, I was dumbstruck by the last line of the article in which this ICE victim vowed to vote for Trump again, but I also found this sentence in the article troubling: "Deporting people is deplorable in and of itself". Really? The author thinks that deporting people here illegally is deplorable? This nicely captures the official position of the Democratic party, and in my opinion will result in Trump's re-election.
9
Ms. Nuetzi’s story does not make sense. Her birth certificate would have only complicated the issue of whether she belongs in the US or not because it proves only that she is Canadian. I am also an American born in a foreign country and I make sure my passport is valid at all times because it is the document I need to prove I am an American.
She should have been asked to show her social security card as part of the renewal process since it was required since 2010. If her birth certificate didn't have a proper seal, she could have obtained a new one.
This should be a cautionary tale for her to think hard about voting for a man who thinks that the office of the president should be used to spread hate and fear among the residents of the US.
4
@S.L.,
A Social Security card is not proof of identity.
A photo ID is required.
2
@S.L. I don't know about you, but my social security card states it is not to be used for identification. I don't understand this reliance in showing that.
2
@Jerry Engelbach- The article stated she was not asked for her social security card when she should have been asked, by law. Aside from her driver's license, she had no picture. This has become a problem now because of the real ID laws for driver's licenses. This should be a lesson to keep her documents up to date. She is a slow learner if she thinks Trump will make American anything other than a laughingstock. She deserves what she gets.
3
The whole mindset of gung ho enforcement that ICE is engaging in under the Trump Administration is based on the notion that it's not necessary to avoid mistakes, that "whatever we do is ok, because we're the good guys." This isn't going to get fixed until we have a different president.
7
Maybe a clerical error is what my life needs. I’m sixty four and still live within walking distance of the hospital where I was born. Deportation might be the only thing to finally get me out of the nest.
7
Travis County receive 24,269 detainer requests from fiscal years 2005 through 2017. According to the cited Cato Institute study, 96.7% of ICE detainer subjects in Travis County from 2006 through 2017 did not claim citizenship. About 814 subjects claimed citizenship, but ICE did not cancel it detainers or decline to make arrests in 586 of theses cases. ICE cancel 156 detainers and declined to make arrests in another 72 cases.
According to the CATO Institute, ICE canceled detainers or decline to make arrests in 0.9%n of cases. So, the ICE detainer accuracy rate is about 99.1 percent.
This does not mean that 0.9% of those who turned out to be American citizens sent time in jail because of ICE detainer errors. Like most police departments, the Travis County Sheriff’s sends data to the FBI biometric database as part of it routine booking process. In most cases, ICE detainers orders were probably canceled while the subjects were still in jail on other charges.
8
The piece notes that ICE has been a problem for decades. ICE was formed in 2003. Yes, ICE is a problem, but it is not "for decades".
3
ICE should re-focus on the mission that justifies its existence: enforcing judgements against people who are a risk to our national security. This includes those who facilitate the entry of drugs into the U.S.; those who facilitate human trafficking; and those on a terror watch list, or for whom law enforcement has legitimate cause (beyond national origin) to suspect of criminal or terror intent.
Re-focus on this mission would involve an upgrade in cyber resources. A wall, or the detention of people who cross our Southwest border, only depletes the human and financial resources needed to keep us safe.
1
I became a US citizen just last year. The first thing I did was send photocopies of my naturalization certificate to various friends and family in case something like this would happen. It was slightly easier when I had the green card since that was easy to carry around but I can't just lug a 8.5 X 11 piece of paper with me everywhere.
6
@JZ
Get a passport and a passport card. I carry one my passport card with me and use it at airports since I never bothered to get NY's enhanced driver's license....
8
@Hexagon @JZ Get your states enhanced drivers' license. The one with a gold star, that is good for airline travel. If you are a naturalized citizen it is your first line of defense against a State Trooper who doesn't like your accent.
Sad that it is so.
1
Well, here is hoping she sues ICE and all the officers involved in the screw up. Remove qualified immunity and suddenly the number of mistakes will go waaaay down when officers have skin in the game for their screw ups. No one should have impunity.
3
The article leaves it as a complete mystery why the state would not accept the birth certificate. It sounds like Nuetzi had a consular report of birth abroad, which legally is evidence of citizenship. We know the government is flagging birth certificates for many people born at home along the border (due admittedly to some cases of actual fraud) and refusing to recognize those docs as evidence of citizenship. Is there some similar move to question reports of birth abroad? Is there a bigger story here?
4
Canada has an abbreviated birth certificate that is the size of a credit card to be carried in your wallet but it isn’t from the hospital? But I’d like to know the answer as well.
3
State workers are simply not trained to know which documents are valid and which are not valid. I fell into legal limbo in Georgia when I was becoming a U.S. resident because DMV employees there simply did not know that my immigration documents were valid. GA DMV employees simply refused to issue me a license until a lawyer got involved.
9
This is how police states operate: through fear. Is she saying she will vote for Trump because she intends to, or because she is afraid?
18
All, I can feel about Tracy Nuetzi's experience is Schadenfreude!
18
Does remind one most uncomfortably of Germany in the 1930s with raids rounding up undesirables. That they are sloppy and callous just adds to the horror. Couple this with the growing number of concentration camps (excuse me... illegal immigrant detention centers) and of course the US history of foreign kidnapping (extra-ordinary rendition) and the picture is one of a rogue state trampling on the rights of its own citizens and the behaviors it has loudly espoused to others. Truely, the country I grew up in is gone and replaced by a terrifying new state.
32
@Greg Latiak So tell us more about how well Canada has treated its indigenous people. So much to be proud of , right? And by the way, Canada has a citizenship question on its census.
2
I just checked my birth certificate. It doesn't indicate my parents' citizenship (they were naturalized immigrants to the US before I was born) or even their place of residence, so if I had not had a US birthplace I would have needed additional documentation to get a passport. I remember that my parents had to provide their naturalization papers to get a passport.
It is surprising that the expired passport was not accepted, unless it was so long ago that she no longer had it, or there is a limit on State Department record availability.
4
Or they are run by racists and looking for excuses under this administration to act with impunity. In prison for 3 years? There is no way unless by design. They sure weren’t trying very hard to verify citizenship.
And how can we? Lucky I’m white but my birth certificate has limited information. I’m depending on the record keeping of my state. Fortunately mine is run be decent people and not republican voter purgers like Stephen Miller.
Do you think for a second they would disregard or damage data for their agenda? They prove everyday they can take your citizenship and life away without any recourse.
Decent Republicans need to start standing by the citizens telling them we have a serious problem. These people in authority are extremely dangerous to all of us. They are the ones that drag us into a corner and setup a fight in which there is no way out and then claim justification.
@AnneNY
After something like 20 years (this info is on the passport application NOT the gov. website) -- a passport may no longer be valid-- but a US citizen with passport(valid) can vouch for the person applying for a new passport. (And at some point one has to start all over.. with birth certificate.)
People really do need to learn about all of this -- while in junior high or high school. Keeping all of the various papers in order is a chore.
But locking up people who did receive notices because of a wrong address?? Absurd.
Commonsense does not seem to prevail -- can it be taught to AI?-- the concept of mistake--e.g. wrong address in the system??
Unfortunately, some people like draconian laws and procedures... and can't wait until they are in a position of power and can make others suffer.
@AnneNY,
Bureaucrats are rigid, pedantic, and, yes, often stupid.
Years ago I helped my mother to get a new passport. She had no driver's license and no other ID with a picture except an expired passport.
They refused to accept her long-expired passport as proof of ID. Incredible. It was obviously her, yet the bureaucracy pretended to be blind because of the date on the old passport.
I was finally able, through a top-level supervisor at the passport agency, to make use of a little-known procedure whereby I vouched for my mother's identity and she received a new passport.
What's really unbelievable is that after all she has been through she still supports Trump.
57
Ms. Nuetzi appears the victim of her own actions; for her, my sympathies are limited.
24
These stories are horrifying. Equally horrifying, however, is the fact that one of the victims of ICE "inaccuracy" continues to be a Trump supporter.
28
I was sympathetic until the end of this story. She voted for Trump this once knowing his character and predilections, including the racism and cruelty, which she must have thought was only for undesirable individuals. Then it happens to her!
She must harbor great hatred toward those whom Trump minions(especially ICE) hate and cruelly target, if she is willing to vote for him again and thereby promote the same treatment she got on others, even fellow citizens!
How is a birth certificate invalid? Ted Cruz was born in Canada to US parents and there were questions about their registering his birth in a timely manner.
12
We surely hope that as Ms. Pelosi expedites a new budget and agrees to increase the debt limit, she is using this leverage she has to NOT have taxpayers borrow to pay for nightmares like these, to NOT add to the deficit to keep children separated from their parents, and to NOT finance ICE’s worst offenses!
9
Trump is not the first president to expel illegal immigrants. Obama deported millions. Should Trump be held to a different standard? Trump is on pace, after 2 1/2 years in office, of at least matching Obama's numbers. Where was the outrage between 2008 and 2016? The president's job is to enforce the U.S. legal code. One recent Yale/MIT study estimates that there may be as many as 29 million illegal immigrants in the country. Trump will deport, as he promised in the last election.
8
@Charlie Reidy ICE under the Obama administration primarily targeted those who had just arrived or those with criminal records. ICE now often goes after ALL suspected of being undocumented immigrants.
By the way, I am not for open borders. We do have to have limits, such as under Obama, and also much more engagement and assistance with Central American governments. And pushing Mexico to do more to stop movement of migrants through their country is the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean I agree with how Trump managed to do this. Raw power and hatefulness doesn't lead to improving relations overall.
12
@Charlie Reidy And it doesn't matter if many of those people are US citizens? Maybe they're just collateral damage?
1
@Charlie Reidy
Yes, isn't transparency wonderful... and PS the incidents reported in the article often predate the Trump Admin.... but at least now we are learning about what is going on...
And the NYTimes headline about thousands being arrested -- so inaccurate... the article mentioned 2,000 -- quite a few less than the imagined 20-50K.. and please don't tell me that in this case the headline would have read "tens of thousands."
Do we enforce laws that have been ignored or bent for 50 years? California won't let employers use e-verify. There are sanctuary cities, call for abolishing ICE, the democrats are astonishingly, calling for free healthcare and decriminalizing illegal entry, and a path way to citizenship for the millions here now illegally. The left fights even minimal deportations and thinks borders are a vistage of racism. Gee, I wonder if any of this will cause more people to want to sneak into the country knowing it's basically home free.
I have a couple of questions for the open borders mass immigration folks.
What is a reasonable number for our immigration laws to allow in each year? At 330 million plus and using 25% of the worlds resources, any scientist would say the U.S. is over populated currently and should either vastly reduce our wasteful lifestyle or stop adding people. We are currently doing neither.
The supply of unhappy people who want to come here is unlimited. How many should we add? What should our population be (is there an upper limit or can we add more people forever) and if we are serious about climate change how can we make any progress by continuing to add millions more people every year to the country with the highest per capita co2 emissions?
The U.S. population has doubled in my lifetime. Do you want your kids to live in a U.S. that doubles again in 50 years?
Actions, or lack of them, like votes, have consequences.
12
@Al I love how you try to swamp the argument with dubious points so they can ignore kids suffering at the border. Hey, let’s blame the parents.
There were discussions underway since 2014 in Congress and the White House to fix immigration (yes, we Dems believe in strong borders, let me say it again, sigh). Instead, Trump et al have ripped up any semblance of a solution so they can appear tough. And so, we all lose.
2
The rule of law has been turned on its head. If it is a criminal offense to be in this country illegally, the burden of proof to ascertain an individual is not a citizen should lie upon ICE. Instead, a citizen bears the burden of proof, contrary to usual law. Fixing this problem of burden should be an easy fix of the law. But, politics and the moral climate of our country make it discouragingly improbable that the law will be fixed.
Overall, the mood swings from enraged anger to crying impotence.
Our democracy is under threat because of the attempted coup being slowly promulgated by Trump's Forces of Fascist Ideology.
22
So after all she went through she intends to vote for Trump.
I wish her well as a minority given the goal of Trump and the republicans is to white america.
I have some ocean front property in Arizona.
20
“Deporting people is deplorable in & of itself”...so...requiring people who do not have a valid reason to be present in our country or who have violated our laws to leave is deplorable? So we should allow anyone who wants to come to this country and refuses to leave to simply stay?
If Democrats want to run on open boarders, free college, debt forgiveness & free medical care, they will lose the House, Senate & Presidency in 2020.
9
@Gailmd Dream on, your argument is all projection. We should be demanding our government show some compassion and work on resolving the problems in the home countries of these people. When someone is chasing you down a dead-end alley with a chain link fence at the end, all you can do is climb the fence. You seem more trumpian than American.
@Gailmd i guess we could start with the undocumented employees at the president's golf resorts. it's always easy to blame democrats for their humanity, but if the people "with no valid reason to be present in our country" are working actual jobs, maybe those "who violate our laws" by knowingly hiring undocumented workers should also be punished.
1
I’m not sure what’s more frightening - the power that a free reign ICE has or the fact that this woman will still vote Trump, the man who has given ICE free reign!
33
A case in point that we get the leadership we deserve.
13
What kind of country is this that we all need our “papers” in perfect order to not be locked up? It is like something from an old WW2 movie.
My 80 year old mother had all her identification taken from her by a family member who was stealing her money and keeping her locked away from family. She could not access anything including her own bank accounts. When I got her away from them I had to remember every detail of her birth to get a copy of her birth certificate and then I helped her obtain a passport to make sure she had rock solid identity as she could no longer drive. Older adults with less ID and with dementia are at risk of being swept up in these in brutal tactics. It will be one big bully show on Sunday no less. Will the “Christian” preachers be cheering the move from the pulpits?
34
Uncaring incompetence. all around Congress, if these were your families, would you be more involved? Leave impeachment alone until a joint fix is installed, including removingICE horrific incompetence and meanness.
4
Write your federal and state congressman. Fund the ACLU. This is the federal government systematically violating the 4th amendment rights of thousands of Americans and legal residents every year.
16
Illegal aliens should be deported but this fate must never befall a US citizen unless in the case of a naturalized citizen, his/her citizenship is revoked by a court. If US citizens are held by ICE for deportation, heavy settlements must be imposed on ICE, ICE personnel disciplined up to and including termination, and such happenings should be documented to Congress and the media.
1
I agree. But you have to realize the people in charge are rounding up brown people by design. They don’t care about your desire for responsible enforcement. That leadership was replaced or never there. You want democrats to support immigration reform with more restrictions. Remove the racists.
A Fair and Welcoming Immigration System
https://medium.com/@teamwarren/a-fair-and-welcoming-immigration-system-8fff69cd674e
2
@Mike,
Apparently, according to a case cited in the article, if ICE holds you long enough the statute of limitations will expire and you will not be able to make a complaint.
A true, legal Catch-22.
1
“Deporting people is deporable enough”. On top of this, almost all Democratic candidates want to decriminalize illegal immigration and provide “free” health care and higher education for twelve million of them. The attitude and actions constitute open borders, even if Democrats refuse to admit it. No country in Europe offers open borders or full single payer for llegal immigrants.
7
@DC c,
No Democrat has advocated open borders.
Their statements are about undocumented immigrants already living in the US.
And now that we now know ICE agents look at brown people, even those as high in society as members of congress as animals, less than humans even what can we expect going forward? It’s like asset forfeiture, no one cares until it happens to them.
7
ICE is poisoned (yes, many deportations occurred under Obama but it was downplayed or underreported)—
A completely new agency needs to be carefully formed and charged AFTER the odious and completely untrusted Trump is removed or gone.
7
Why did not Guadalupe Plascencia sue the government for $5 million? A good lawyer might have done it for her.
1
So this is what America has become, a country where a knock on the door in the middle of the night followed by an abduction for incarceration to who-knows-where is considered just a part of being a citizen.
25
@athenasowl this DOES sound like Nazi Germany. We have a friend that was a child in Germany during WW2. The police came to their house one night and took his father away and he was never seen again. We can no longer say "It can't happen here", because it is.
1
The last two sentences in this piece have me fuming. If this Trump supporter doesn't get it, then who will?!
19
So we should not have police because they arrested the wrong person once?
5
@M,
According to the article, ICE has illegally detained thousands of US citizens.
@M: If that's what you got out of this, you're the problem.
The article is illustrating the LACK OF DUE PROCESS that is a Constitutionally-guaranteed provision to all people, whether they are citizens or not. We are a nation of LAWS.
If you're so upset about "illegals" then why don't you petition the government to enforce their laws on those who UNLAWFULLY EMPLOY THEM.
Wait until it happens to you!. Be on the wrong side of a bureaucratic nightmare and your position will likely change.
I'm failing to understand how ICE is related to Ms. Neutzi's case. She was denied a drivers license by the local motor vehicle department. When did ICE get involved?
This article lacks so many details. There are no dates for many of the examples, and no other details.
8
There it is:
As the author notes, the ICE drive is one of the key tools Trump uses to make America "whiter."
Yet when those personally caught up in the horror inflicted within our borders, like Ms. Nuetzi, remain fervent Trump supporters, deluded in his propaganda to "make America great again," one wonders what government and what treatment our citizens really deserve.
Self inflicted horror is what many of our citizens seem to want (or at least be ready to put up with in the "whiter America" campaign). If ever there was an indicator that our academic and values education system is in need of drastic change, this is it.
12
The American legal system is anchored in the premise that you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Doctors work by the maxim, "First, do no harm."
Clearly, the burden of proof should be on ICE to show that anyone being detained for deportation is unquestionably NOT an American citizen. If there is reasonable doubt, do no harm.
There are plenty of citizens who have spotty paperwork. Missing birth certificates, expired passports, incorrect voter registration records, etc. It can take time to recover old documentation. So, what's the hurry?
And mundane things like renewing a driver's license should never lead to an inquiry into citizen status. If there is a question about eligibility at the state level, then keep the documentation process at the state level.
We are not a police state that requires everyone to carry identity papers at all times and I hope we never will be. That's not my America.
20
@hdtvpete - the problem is, under Mr. Trump, we ARE a police state.
If citizens are not immune to being wrongly victimized by ICE raids, can they not sue ICE and/or the US government if they are?
5
@Shenonymous. The story reports 2 such instances. In one, the victim received $55,000. In the other, the victim - held for years and then dropped off suddenly in a state he had never lived in -- won his initial suit, but it was overturned on appeal because he hadn't filed within the statute of limitations -- which had run out WHILE he was in ICE custody and therefore unable to file the suit. That's American justice today for you!
19
@dobes
Thank you for your reply. American justice appears to be a joke! The circumstances of his being in custody and unable to file a responding suit should be a case that the Supreme Court would have to decide! Again, thank you for your response.
1
@Shenonymous:
Maybe. But even if they can, so what? Lawsuits are cold comfort. They're time-consuming, soul-sucking, and expensive. Most people can't afford to sue.
2
Incredulous - that’s all I can say about the last line of this article. It encapsulates Trump’s base. No matter what he does - even to them personally - they’ll still support him. Is that blind devotion or a complete refusal to admit they made a clear mistake in voting for a man, who not only had no experience and ability in running this country (or any other country for that matter), but also has no inclination in trying to learn how to govern after being in office for over two years?
These very people will get that man re-elected. Unbelievable.
783
@Sherry I did not vote for Trump and never would. However, I don't see from the story how what happened to her was Trump's responsibility. Didn't other president detained illegal immigrants? Didn't ICE or other federal agencies make this type of mistakes under other presidents? It is a sad story but I fail to see this is all about Trump.
15
@Sherry Actually, the Republican base, which constitutes around 33% on most issues and always votes Republican, can't re-elect Trump, anymore than the Democratic base can elect one of his opponents. He'll need a lot of independent voters to get to 50%. Instead of focusing on the base, you should ask yourself why Trump will get the votes of so many independents. Then you can figure out how to beat him in the next election. Democrat support of illegal immigration is one of the issues that scares many independents from voting for Democrats.
32
ICE had many issues from its inception in 2002. Throughout Bush's presidency there were many abuses. Obama reined them in by focusing their priorities. Trump took the reins off. So yes, illegal immigrants were detained - but the focus was on criminal illegal immigrants (ones with a criminal history) and not just any illegal immigrant (being in the country illegally is a civil violation).
65
Ms Nuetzi, and others in her predicament, should contact their Congressional Representative or Senator’s office for help in getting themselves proof of citizenship. There are people working in their offices (especially the home offices) whose job it is to help constituents.
Too late for her, of course, but perhaps this tip will help others.
Like others here I am shocked and appalled that she plans to vote for trmp again.
7
As a child, I was part of the braceros program--a program that mostly sent Latino U.S. citizens and immigrants back to Mexico to work in the fields. I kid you not. In the 1980s taking a class in Latin American Migration to the U.S., then Stanford grad student Rogers Rouse actually held up a picture of me in a bus about to leave Los Angeles for Mexico and taught part of my 'case' to a class that I was in. I was not warned before class. I called my Father afterwards and he became upset. I am not Latino/Latina. I am part Native American. I never received compensation. Let the madness stop.
12
We've seen this type of raid in other countries, over history. We need to recognize what's happening in our country, and to stop it from happening.
21
It's amazing how quickly Big Brother can come into the picture.
And it's shocking how some people welcome it.
I don't know if we're a flock of geese or a flock of sheep, but we are definitely flocked.
18
Unless her parents were diplomats or employed by diplomats, she IS a Canadian citizen by virtue of her birth in Montreal. If she had less enthusiasm for intolerance and cruelty, as demonstrated by her willingness to vote for Trump, I would say she had won the lottery and should have let them deport her there, for a better life.
9
@dobes She may be a Canadian Citizen by virtue of her birth in Montreal, but as an elderly lady with no family or connections in Canada, being deported to a strange country with a very different climate would be far from easy.
2
@dobes: There is no birthright citizenship or jus solis Canadian citizenship rule, like here.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Citizenship_Act_1946#Creation_of_Canadian_Citizenship,_January_1947 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_nationality_law
1
If both parents were US Citizens at the time of her birth, she is a US citizen too.
1
Ms Nutz’s (and other citizen’s) problem arises from the fact that no particular document or set of documents is dispositive on the question of identity. The article implies that if her passport were not expired, the bureaucracy would have had to give her a drivers license. Not true. If the person behind the counter is having a bad day or taking a dislike, more can be demanded. And the “more” that would satisfy would not be specified.
I presented the Social Security Administration with my son’s Certification of Citizenship in order to get a social security number. The beautifully embossed document from the State Department was not accepted as proof of name and date of birth by the SSA. What additional documents would suffice was never stated. Eventually I collected enough documents so that the poundage exhausted the case worker and she gave in.
Every time I hear that a state will give a free ID as an argument in favor of requiring an ID to vote, I laugh. The amount of discretion given at 5he intake counter and lack of standards as to satisfactory proof makes it easy for any person at the counter to discriminate against people of color or Democrats and impossible to know whether all persons are treated the same.
53
@Yeah I had a similar experience in Maryland, when I retired after 21 years in the U.S. Air Force. I went to get my driver's license (this was 1999, so pre 9-11), taking my old license with me. For ID I presented my military retiree ID, the clerk refused it. Wow, was I upset! I asked for her supervisor, who did accept it and apologized. But imagine that if I head that issue way back then what's it like now.
I now live in Virginia (I know, but hey) and renewed my license - paying for the Real ID version. No issues, even though I'm a naturalized citizen, which was great, but I did this, as well as renewing my passport, just so I don't have any issues.
Ms. Nuetzi was lucky that after 60 years her mother was still alive and able to gather the documents. This stuff is crazy for sure. Many citizens are being denied IDs based on the State telling them their birth certificate is false, now what do they do? They've been productive and honest citizens, and the government tells them they aren't welcome any more? That's insane and I think constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. Even if the birth certificate was forged, they were babies! Why punish them? We need legislation to fix these issues.
19
@Yeah Anyone who has ever been abroad and has had their passport lost or stolen - suddenly realizes how difficult it is to prove you are a U.S. Citizen. Birth Certificates without seals? No good. Older Birth Certificates without fraud prevention measures? Suspect and therefore not good. You have been married and have a different last name? You need more documents to explain name difference with Birth Certificate. I agree, the lack of a definitive - recognized by all areas of the government -document is part of the problem.
13
@Yeah
No kidding. I went to the DMV to renew my license and get a Real ID. I went through the first screening to get in the door, and everything was good. I waited in a long, slow line for the second screening, and everything was still good. I waited some more and got to the third desk, only to be told I don't have all the documents I need.
2
As a former prosecutor, what this and other stories make clear are:
1. The US does not really have an "immigration system" at all. It is so underfunded that the real policy has been mostly open borders but with rather random and bad enforcement of the law. The wait for an immigration hearing is measured in years.
2. The US system, if one can call it that, is completely incapable of dealing with a refugee crisis developing on the southern border in a way that adheres to basic concepts of decency (ie conditions in detainee camps).
The debate about all of this strikes me as fundamentally dishonest on all sites. The author of this piece offers no solution. Trump has violated the basic human rights of detainees.
But so too have the Democrats who talk vaugely about better "border security" without describing what that means and who have not proposed nearly enough money to handle this crisis.
The refugee crisis will cost billions and require a real system capable of handling it.
22
@Bill Dan it's not the author's responsibility to come up with a solution. That's on the people who are paid to do this job and as you point out, they have not. Put the blame and action directly where it needs to be applied.
7
@Bill Dan The crisis is the result of decades or even centuries of bad policy on the part of the U.S. Our foreign policies very often bear no resemblance to what this country claims to believe in.
Central American countries have been particular victims of our Imperialist policies. Democracy or else! is our mantra, except when it is inconvenient to our business interests, or so-called national security.
The results are unstable countries to our south where people often find their only option is to move to the U.S. where they'll finally have rights.
The fix is unclear to be sure. Our system creates instability over the long term as we bounce from one type of president and congress to another. As we've become even more stratified between our two parties, doing what's right, what will actually benefit the people here and abroad, has become less important than being self-serving. Especially on the right.
We have to fix that problem before we resolve the refugee crisis for real - be eliminating the conditions that result in refugees in the first place.
4
@Paul Robinson: Thank you Paul for stating that the US in responsible for fostering conditions that drive the border crisis and the immigration system collapse we see today.
She lost me at I'm still a Trump supporter. If she cannot make a connection between what happened to her and what is currently happening with ICE then she is not all there.
161
@Annie P "Stockholm Syndrome"?
4
What we need is a digitization of database and this is an issue across political lines. The bureaucracy is objectively inefficient for the exponential increase of the United States population, especially in important sectors like immigration. Problem is nobody is taking initiative to do so, and even if so, government workers are not the most flexible group to adapt to technology.
1
@Shay technology is not the answer. Basic human decency is.
Why wasn’t an expired passport accepted as a form of Id? While it may be expired
For travel to other countries, it is still issued by the state department.
52
@Harris Silver I wondered the same thing. I just renewed my (not-yet-expired) passport, and just received my new and old documents back in the mail. The State Department's website even says, "In most cases, we will return the old, cancelled passport to you. It may be sent separately from your new passport. It is a good idea to keep your old passport in a safe place as it is considered proof of your U.S. citizenship."
Perhaps the State of Florida required a current US Passport in order to process her driver's license renewal. The State Department is pretty clear as to what they'll accept as proof of citizenship when born abroad, and you can even request that they search for your old file (if you've had a passport issued before) instead of submitting your citizenship documents again. But I'm curious as to what happened here.
3
@Harris Silver You can not get a new passport with an expired passport that is more than 15 years old. Ms. Nuetzi seemed have had only one passport from when she was 12 - and now she is 60 years old.
1
It usually is, when the passport being renewed is of an adult and not expired over a certain amount of time.
The article says that her passport had “long expired,” because the last time she traveled abroad she was 12. The article also says, she has been a “citizen for 60 years.”
Do you actually think that child photo on a passport is still an accurate representation of a middle aged person?
Passports for people under 18 are issued for only 5 years because, well, an infant varies in appearance to a teenager. Also people change their appearance and names because of marriage/divorce.
ICE makes mistakes but it is the individual’s responsibility to maintain their paperwork in order.
1
> During her ordeal, she thought about contacting the president via Facebook to ask for his personal intervention in her case. She ended up doing it all on her own, but she said she continues to believe Mr. Trump will “make America great again.” She intends to vote for him in 2020.
***Now why would she do that?
Maybe, in some back-door way, if Trump is elected again so the abuse continues, the public will speak out via their votes and the press, until the government makes necessary corrections in their procedures.
What she described as paperwork errors leading to government abuse happens in any government agency. Child Protective Services, under the administration of state governments, is one such agency that is prone to abusing innocent people.
Perhaps if enough people get caught up in the government grinder, the outcry could build and eventually put a stop to the abuse, and the recognition of people’s constitutional rights will prevail.
14
@Michael Radowitz
I was a prosecutor.
We made mistakes.
Pretty much daily.
Any system will: the question is whether there is a remedy available to people if they are wrongly caught in the system.
My sense is that the immigration system is so underfunded and the rules so unclear that mistakes once made are uniquely difficult to unravel.
6
@Michael Radowitz
Wait until the democrats have the government running health care......you ain't seen nothing yet.
1
Yet another article about complaining but no solutions.
Want to get rid of ICE? Ok, then what? We dont arrest anyone in the country illegally anymore? Why have a border?
Democrats have been fighting Trump tooth and nail over illegal immigration. Guess who's job is made all that much harder when there's a massive opening at the border? ICE. Perhaps these cases of innocents being detained would happen much less if ICE wasnt running around like chickens without a head after the swelling number of foreigners entering our country illegally. We have 2000 miles of border. There is 654 miles where there is wall or barrier. Yes, there are areas that cannot be crossed by humans, but theres still an awful lot of crossable border where there is no wall - and thats where these family units with children are crossing. They certainly arent scaling high walls with little kids. Close the spigot. Finish the wall. Then ICE will have a lot more time on their hands, and when that happens, less mistakes occur. for mnay months, Democrats and their cohorts in the media have been denying theres a crisis at the border. Its all manufactured they say. Then they said a wall is a waste, all we need is technology - which is wrong. They cross and then get detained on purpose, by design, so they could be legally released into the country with a court date. The only way to stop this madness is prevent them from crossing illegally in the first place. The only way to do that is a wall
12
@Sports Medicine you have lost it. Have you been to the Sonoran Desert? Have you seen the terrain? A Wall? How many billions of dollars do you want your tax money to go for something that won't work. That's just the construction because as I am sure you know, a wall needs maintenance. How much will that cost you a year? There is no immigration system. It's all ad hoc willy nilly expel anyone the executive doesn't like. That's not a system. Finally in terms of migration, deal with the issue in the home countries first--enforcement like a lot of things doesn't work and is not a deterrent. That will cost money too but at least it will work.
7
@Sports Medicine How about for a start, we substantially increase the penalties for large agri-businesses, food processors, hotels and other companies that routinely employ large amounts of illegal and undocumented immigrants in low-wage positions and then treat them unfairly because they aren't in a position to do anything about it? This common practice hurts our country in multiple ways - if unscrupulous employers are willing to hire illegal immigrants, that creates an incentive for illegal border crossing. Further, the availability of a cheap labor force that won't push for fair treatment keeps wages depressed for unskilled U.S. citizens who would otherwise work in those positions.
Strangely, I don't see the Trump administration stepping up enforcement against employers who hire illegal immigrants. Apparently Mar-a-Lago's staffing needs "trump" addressing actual root causes of illegal immigration.
11
@Sports Medicine
Except there's no real reason to expect a full wall to stop any immigration at all? And what swell?
ICE is breaking the law by holding people long past when they should be released. Our law enforcement has a duty to build its own case. In fact, our laws were built more to protect the innocent than to punish the guilty.
Not sure what illegal immigration, specifically across our southern border, has to do with legal citizens minding their own business. But go off, I guess.
5
It seems that the immigration system in the US has always been pretty insane. I've read, in history-of-science books, about an incident in the 1940s. Kurt Goedel, a refugee from Naziism who was the world expert in logic, applied for US citizenship. The border bureaucrats asked him whether the Constitution had flaws that made a dictatorship possible. They didn't want to know the real answer; the question was a trap to find if the applicant was a possible troublemaker. The lorgician started pointing out flaws in the Constitution and endangering his hearing. The situation was saved when Albert Einstein vouched for Goedel.
The irony about all this was that while the US government was bragging about the perfection of its Constitution, large parts of the country in the southeast were under a dictatorship which kept minority groups from voting. Talk about Orwellian doublethink..
27
@Charlesbalpha: Did you read "When Einstein Walked with Goedel"?
@Steve Bolger
Yes, though I read about the citizenship hearing in a book by Stephen Hawking.
1
Nor are we citizens safe from drugs raids either,.
Eschew these occasions of wongdoings that often result in raids.
2
... and still voting Trump!???!
I was trying to imagine the anger, frustration and despair Ms. Nuetzi must have felt during her ordeal.
One could only wish she managed to turn all those destructive emotions into positive energy ... eg by doing something for immigrants? Or doing something about informing others about how flawed the system is? I know , I am being naive here ... but voting for Trump again? Go figure.
26
@Wolfgang
Insanity arises in many forms
3
"It proved nearly impossible for Ms. Nuetzi to extract herself from the ICE machine. If a legal citizen with the money and means to prove she belongs here cannot right the mistake without months of anguish, we cannot trust the agencies in place to correctly discern who should be kicked out."
The worst part about this Kafta-like saga is that Ms. Nuetzi will vote for Trump again.
The second worst thing in this piece is how ICE seems to be granted the power to act like a racist police state, charged with rounding up people on the basis of skin color and ethnicity.
You can bet your life ICE won't be knocking on the door of white American residents from nordic, papers or no papers, here legally or illegally.
The overtones of these "raids"--more like roundups--have dark implications for our beliefs about our own country as a beacon of hope for oppressed people.
That they should have such power over people caught in a lapse of timing, an expired passport, or clerical error constitutes a stain on this nation, all due to presidential bigotry.
17
@ChristineMcM
FWIW, ICE is the only comparison to a failed democracy that I personally buy (KBB, SS).
That said, this lady is white.
I remember this ballot initiative in Denver, many years ago, that made driving without a license on you a serious offence that resulted in your car being towed. Not a suspended or revoked license or not having ever been given one, but literally not having it with you.
This was started because of a shocking statistic about "illegals" driving and being involved in accidents. which was, of course, not super accurate or significant statistically.
The police and local government begged people to not pass it, but they did. So, to show how ridiculous it was, the police did exactly what the new law said.
New luxury cars sitting in impounds, owners unable to pull together the $400-1000 to free them. Turns out there are a lot of rich white people living paycheck to paycheck. Get paid in two weeks? That's gonna cost! Bill goes up every day.
Suddenly, the law was ridiculous and the police were abusing the power demanded of them by the law. But it wasn't because it was impacting white people, oh no. It's because they had a new found sense of respect for all them illegals. ?? A gross lesson all the way around.
In this way, I say, arrest all the white people! Nothing gets "first, they came for the Jews..." through people's heads faster than the realization that, yes, you too. I know where there's a first generation moron they can hassle. 1600 Penn
Violating a person's constitutional rights needs to be made both a criminal offense and a civil offense. The offenders need to be arrested, tried, and incarcerated, and they also need to be heavily fined for their crimes. Mistakes made by ICE can destroy lives. They are inexcusable and cannot be tolerated. Violators must be punished, and their victims must be justly compensated for the immeasurable suffering they endure.
12
So she nearly gets kicked out of the country and feels that NO ONE should be treated that way. But she's going to vote for Trump again. Mind-blowing. I have absolutely no sympathy for her. Because she really feels that SHE shouldn't be treated that way. She's perfectly okay with others being rounded up, caged, separated from their families and deported to another country.
I'm thoroughly disgusted.
100
@Patty O. Thanks so am I
3
Many years ago, not soon before I retired, my employer, an employer I had been with for 10 years. I had a position that required a security clearance.
The HR department sent me an email requesting I prove myself to be a citizen. Well, I submitted all of the paperwork when I was hired and again when I applied for a security clearance.
So, I asked the question, why now? ICE was reviewing the records and I was flagged due to my surname.
I presented my passport and birth certificate and that was the end of that.
ICE, in its quest to perform its duties is not always right in their assessments of who belongs here and who should go.
And given the nature of the Trump/Miller initiatives to rid the country of brown people ICE must always be questioned during the brown people roundup activities. In their zeal to please Dear Leader many will be apprehended who are lawfully in this country, or born in this country.
I thought the roundups of people happened on another continent decades ago. History does repeat itself when many are ignorant of history. And Trump is one of those ignorant persons.
24
I am an American citizen by birth. My 24-year-old daughter was born in Belgium, and her father is a Belgian citizen. My daughter got an American birth certificate through the American embassy in Brussels shortly after she was born. She has an American passport.
After reading this, my first thought was to check and gather together every document that proves her citizenship, especially as she plans to leave the US soon for a year abroad on a Fulbright scholarship.
I never thought I would have to worry about my daughter possibly being detained by ICE and perhaps repatriated to Belgium, a country she left when she was 1 year old.
42
@Mary The article didn't say what she offered as her birth certificate. I suspect it was the report of the birth of an American citizen abroad, as is given out by embassies. And yet, Florida would not accept it. You have reason to worry about your daughter, and all your gathering of evidence may not matter to ICE, but still, it is the best you can do. I wish you and your daughter the best!
5
@Mary I'm 63 y/o and was born in England to U.S. Citizens (my father was in the USAF stationed in England). I don't have a U.S. birth certificate, it's a British birth certificate. I have a State Department notice of birth overseas to US citizens. Just those two documents, and the British certificate is hand written! My parents had me naturalized when I was 8! Not sure why, but glad they did as that's the best certificate I have to prove citizenship (until we break up with the UK and they start deporting UK citizens, which I am by being born there).
So today I make sure I have a State driver's license that's Real ID compliant (paid extra for that) as well as maintaining my U.S. passport. I have military ID as well, but that's been refused before!!! Lucky for me I'm an old white guy, so very unlikely to ever be stopped, but that's just the roll of the dice.
So keep the passport current (it's Real ID compliant) and the state driver's license current (with Real ID compliance). That should be sufficient, but photograph the birth records, then store them in a fireproof safe. Because well, we just don't know how crazy this place can get.
7
@Paul Robinson Thank you. I believe she has a US birth certificate, but after reading your comment, I now wonder if it is, in fact, a State Department notice of birth abroad. It is stored in a safety deposit box at our bank. I will check that today.
She does have a current passport, which has never lapsed, and a state driver's license that is Real ID compliant.
But it is crazy that we even have to think about this.
3
After digesting Ms. Cunha’s opinion pretty thoroughly my major after thought was:
What type of individual would desire to be employed by I.C.E. and perform the duties required of those jobs ? I cannot imagine.
24
and what kind of a person would still vote for Trump after that experience???
2
So a lot of the arguing that goes on with the discussions regarding asylum, refugees, and ordinary immigration assumes that it is a zero-sum game.
The argument seems to be if ALL Americans don't have XYZ, then NO non-Americans should have XYZ. And guess who has instilled this belief? Rich fear-mongers: Keep the population distracted and squabbling, and we can get more for ourselves.
That's what POTUS and the current administration are about. They pushed through a tax bill benefiting obscenely rich corporations and individuals, and here the rest of us are, squabbling about a few crumbs they pushed off the table. Literally.
We are hitting out at the closest vulnerable targets that we can, rather than recognizing that the windfall to the already rich has meant worse educational opportunities, more jobs going overseas, worse social nets, more threats against Medicare, and Medicare - which by the way also assists disable children, infrastructure that continues to degrade - and the list goes on and on.
But it's not actually a zero-sum game. We need what immigrants can and always have provided, only with an aging population we need it more urgently. Rural towns are dying. Seniors need care that isn't going to be available.
26
It's reported in many credible websites that most of law enforcement agencies are overwhelmingly dominated to White people and also republican supporters. Probably, more professionals in STEM and other non-legal, non-administrative and non-law-enforcement careers are having more healthier mix of people from diverse racial, religious and political views. It's time to have a better and more representative employees in such Federal Agencies, mainly in leadership positions, including ICE and Department of Justice.
7
@bonku A study of police force demographics would reveal this, I think that info is available. BUT, it's been shown that even officers of color behave like their white colleagues. This may be for self-preservation, or just because they are trained that way.
STEM does, from my experience (I am an engineer) have a significant level of diversity, but that's doesn't mean it's free of bias. Just look at how women have been treated in the gaming developer world for a very clear example.
What needs to happen is the end to racism in our government and institutions. We must begin teaching racial tolerance in schools, and stomp out ANY bad behavior. This country is filled with racists, until we clean that up we'll continue to have this problem.
1
@Paul Robinson. You are perfectly right when you say"STEM does, from my experience (I am an engineer) have a significant level of diversity, but that's doesn't mean it's free of bias."
As a scientists I know and face it almost daily basis and feel so helpless. STEM has been severely eroded for last few decades in the US, mainly since Reagan era for practically transformed American higher education and research sector as another for-profit Industry that even high profile public Univ are unable to evade. In 2012, US slipped to 12th in terms of quality of output of its higher education sector, as compared to 2nd in 1995, when systematic data collection started.
You can check this nice article I just read about racism in Science- https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/07/10/416496218/is-race-science-making-a-comeback
1
Your profile of Ms. Nuetzi is proof that federal databases don't have accurate records on immigrants, residents and citizens. the US government has big data, but not smart and well managed data as we see so tragically in lack of records for separated families. that's a starting point for reforming and improving our behemoth bureaucracy.
11
@Maureen No, the article doesn't prove that. The article clearly stated that no one asked Social Security for any evidence, because they would have seen her working here and reporting income and paying social security since 1974.
But, is that evidence of citizenship? No. The issue is really her birth documentation, her birth certificate was likely issued by a Canadian hospital with a State Department report of birth overseas. As someone else mentioned, we don't know what documentation she provided, but it HAD been good enough in all her previous decades of living here.
Now, however, the States have to evaluate everyone's documentation over again in order to provide a Real ID compliant ID (driver's license, or other ID). That's and the core of her problem, not the databases maintained by the government.
What started out as a story about an over zealous ICE ended up being a story about the deep commitment Trump’s base has towards him. I don’t remember ever seeing anything like this and I’ve been around a while. He has obviously touched a very deep and personal nerve.
20
@Robert Kramer Agree, not sure whether I was more disturbed by the treatment of American citizens, or the cognitive dissonance that led this woman to continue to avidly support Trump.
16
It's disheartening to read these accounts of Americans unjustly swept up in ICE raids. The miscarriage of justice is always hard to swallow and hindsight gives us the opportunity to collect stories like these and use them to bludgeon ICE as the bad guys. In truth, ICE officials have an incredibly difficult job, made all the more challenging in this political climate where law breakers (yes, if you cross the border illegally you have committed a crime) are painted as the victims rather than the perpetrators. Abolishing ICE or allowing illegal immigration to go unchecked is not a solution. Enforcing some laws but not others is not a solution. We need to maintain strong border controls, which includes arresting those who have crossed illegally or overstayed legitimate visas. Until we fix our broken immigration system there will always be mistakes.
9
@John, under the Geneva Convention seeking asylum is not illegal. This has been repeated so often as fact that people believe it is true. And do you think the dehumanizing things ICE agents have said and done amounts to them being “good guys”?
12
They are deporting people who lost their asylum claim or didn’t show up to court.
3
@Rebecca There is no doubt you are right. But just like the subject of the article, Trumpers just can't hear you. Save your breath -- and vote the monster out.
Why are ICE raids not being done on business owners who employ undocumented immigrants? Round them up, herd them into processing centers, then give them lengthy jail terms.
Oh, wait. Said business owners tend (overall) to be richer, whiter, and male, and we don't like criminalizing richer, whiter, male people, do we. They come from "nice families," and therefore don't belong in jails with the kinds of people whose lives we, as a society, love to just toss away for the slightest misdemeanor.
Silly me. I was forgetting.
548
@EB. And California has apparently outlawed using e-verify to see if your potential employee is here legally, but of coarse it's all just xenophobia and racism on the right. Silly me. The problem is both sides of this debate have an agenda that is not based on the law of what is best for America and its citizens. Until we sit down with the numbers (just what is an ideal and needed immigration policy? More importantly what is the ideal population of the U.S. or can we add people for ever?) the distortions, omissions, lies and name calling will continue and the train of out of control population growth will continue.
12
@EB To bad ICE raids aren't/weren't being done on business owners, especially pre-2016. One of those business owners would have been Trump.
38
@EB
Also, one of the business owners who employs illegal immigrants is named Donald Trump.
29
To every Trump supporter surprised by the consequences of his or her vote: "You broke it, you bought it."
319
@JM, What makes you think we’re not happy?
What was broke is finally being fixed after 8 yrs of neglect.
14
@JM Except that we are all paying the price for what they bought.
30
@George ~
Under Obama a lot more illegals were deported than under Trump, with a logical focus of using limited resources on those who had committed violent crimes.
21
If this isn’t the ultimate proof that people don’t vote in their own self-interests, I don’t know what is.
64
My wife just sent me a text saying: let’s make sure all our paperwork is easy to get to. That should be absurd except I was thinking it too, so it becomes frightening and makes one wonder what this country has become.
481
@Gerard Absolutely, from the time I was 18 years ago, I got my first passport then I eventually got my first driver's license. I've always been careful to keep my documents up to date and easily accessible.
37
@Gerard
In CT, you can add a universe ID to your driver license. I just did it, so I had one more level of protection. I also have my passport, birth certificate, etc. in a fire proof box and I keep it all very handy. We are in crazytimes when we need to think about protecting ourselves from our own government.
173
@Gerard Good point. And keep a log of the date, time and details of any phone conversation with a bureaucrat, whether they work for the government, an insurance company or whatever.
48
You aren’t “automatically” a US citizen when born abroad to two US citizen parents. Normally the parents must go to a US Embassy or Consulate and provide documentation for a citizenship determination so the child can obtain a Consular Report of Birth Abroad.
15
@BB yes, you ARE automatically a citizen under those circumstances. The law states the child of two American citizens abroad IS a citizen - FULL STOP.
What's not automatic is obtaining documentation of that citizenship. However, you ARE a citizen regardless of whether the paper is ever filed, according to the relevant statute.
18
It is the birth to US citizens that confers citizenship, not the fact that you went to an embassy or consulate to get a piece of paper.
@BB
2
@BB
Yes, you are. 8 U.S.C. 1401(c). The Consular Report of Birth is just the proof, like a birth certificate.
1
Ms. Nuetzi's personal story about herself as a bona fide U.S. citizen getting caught in the ICE dragnet as a deportable is truly ironic. In 2016 she votes for Trump, the man who has instituted these draconian immigration policies. Even after her subsequent harrowing ordeal with the federal government she plans on voting for Trump in 2020. The loyalty of the Trump base is amazing.
100
Perhaps some members of Congress could author a bill automatically granting any American citizen wrongfully detained by ICE $500,000 compensation. Why should I or any other citizen run the risk of detention because ICE makes a mistake? Now the real solution would be to detain the agents responsible for an equal period of time but I accept that errors do happen. However, the burden should not simply fall on the individual citizen; agents of the federal government who are careless, sloppy, or in such a rush to make quota that the penalize the innocent need to be clearly identified, and costing the US government $500,000 per head would get attention pretty fast. This plan would have cost ICE nearly $2 billion in Texas alone from 2006 to 2017. In effect it is compensation for abuse and punitive damages. But instead of having to go to court and fighting the Department of Justice the victims would have the legal right to demand payment. Put the burden of proof on those whose actions deprived a citizen of liberty and property. It is time for abusers to pay, not hide behind the claim they were only following orders. And those who give such orders need jail time to contemplate their transgressions.
41
@usa999
Yeah, let's do that. But lets also make any ICE agent who wrongfully arrested an American Citizen serve triple the time the citizen was detained. And while we're at it lets separate them from Homeland Security and void their pensions and take away their voting rights.
20
@Arturo Belano absolutely! traumatic actions need accountability!!
2
I am the first to call out any federal agency that abuses its authority. But it clearly is not ICE that caused this particular crisis.
Nope, the current mess was caused by:
1.) non-citizens entering this country illegally,
2.) claiming asylum,
3.) being released in the US,
4.) failing to show for their hearing date,
5.) being ordered to leave the US by a federal immigration judge, and
6.) refusing to do so.
33
@Conservative Democrat
The problem is caused by the refusal of many to face the following facts.
1) Undocumented people who have lived here for decades simply cannot be uprooted and deported without great societal harm. The harm goes well beyond to moral issues of cruelty these people are so much a part of our economic system that the mass deportations are causing economic damage.
2) This country needs more immigrants to overcome the economic effects of our aging society. Our economy will stagnate without new young immigrants.
4) The beliefs of some that their low wages are caused by competition from undocumented immigrants is not born out by the facts. Low wages are caused by the destruction of unions and the economic power corporations have keep wages low. It is part of the larger growing problem of the growing wealth and power of the upper .1% of the population
5) Trump immigration policies are designed to inflame his base to vote for him. ICE is a convenient tool that allows him to implement draconian cruel policies. He dies not care if U.S. citizens or legal residents get caught up in the system.
6) as the article states the differences between being legal and illegal in the U.S. is often based on a small loophole in the law. For example Marco Rubio parents would have been undocumented aliens if they did not fall into the legal exception created for Cubans. Under Trump policy they would have been deported back to Cuba and Rubio would have been born there.
22
@Conservative Democrat. Don't forget the left and the democrats part in basically saying anybody here illegally is just "undocumented" as though it's just some lost or misplaced paperwork. The stampede to the left during the debates to decriminalize illegal entry and to give illegals basically every benefit for sneaking in, is going to give us four more years of trump.
2
@Conservative Democrat
Well, no. None of those describe the woman described in the article, and yet ICE still unlawfully targeted her. They're not allowed to touch US citizens, and yet they do so because they're incompetent, malicious, or both. All their fault.
(and whoever decided a birth certificate that had always been valid no longer was - the reporter should try to find out who in what office made *that* decision).
8
Let's see -- she voted for Trump already and intends to vote for him again. Even after what happened to her. Not to put too fine a point on it, so let's just say it: she got what she asked for.
140
Voting for trump and having no identification papers are two separate things. Are you insinuating that just because she voted for trump she would magically get a new ID, passport and birth certificate without her intervention?
4
@Jade. Do you not understand that ICE has been an out of control agency that even Obama failed to reign in?
@Jade,
Exactly right. I feel no sympathy at all for this woman, who says she'll vote for Trump again. It's people like her that are the reason why this country is now an international pariah and a laughing stock to boot. I'm only concerned for those who did not and will not vote for Trump, but are be suffering under his regime. They are the real victims here, not the Trump supporter in this article. She got exactly what she voted for.
6
Does anybody remember the Arizona law? It gave the police power to arrest anybody who couldn't prove they were a citizen. The only document I have that identifies me as a citizen is my passport. When I told my friends that it was dangerous to go touristing in Arizona without a passport, they thought I was crazy. (Arizona has a very famous tourist spot, the Grand Canyon) No, the Arizona legislators were crazy. What was intended as a trap for illegal immigrants put Arizona on the road to fascism.
Somebody told me the courts overturned the law. This didn't make the papers because everybody was ignoring the law in the first place.
ICE wasn't even involved in this particular mess.
27
Positing an outlier as the general rule is not the best way to win an argument.
12
@Frunobulax
Except that it wasn't “an outlier”; the reporter described a substantial number of cases of illegally detained U.S. citizens — and data showing hundreds and thousands of improper detentions of U.S. citizens in just two states!
Overall, there must be tens of thousands of U.S. citizens being detained by ICE all across the country.
The agency, like the Border Patrol, is out of control.
31
@Frunobulax
3,500 wrongfully detained US citizens in Texas and hundreds elsewhere is not an outlier.
8
@Frunobulax
We are talking about 1000's of American Citizens, not an outlier. Read the article.
3
One of the problems is that even in this day and age of advanced technology the agencies don’t communicate with each other. My daughter was adopted in 2002 from a foreign country as a toddler and based on the Child Citizenship Act of 2000 she became a US citizen immediately upon arriving in the states. She has always had a current passport and I was told that it really wasn’t necessary to have a Certificate of Citizenship (which I believe is now given automatically to foreign adoptees). And of course, she also has a Social Security number. However, when she applied under the FAFSA for financial aid for college, the results stated that Social Security could not confirm her U.S. citizenship status. I had to go to the Social Security office to see if they had made a mistake. They confirmed that they knew she was a citizen, but could not explain why it was not confirmed on the FAFSA. Fortunately we had a valid passport and the colleges were OK with this as proof of citizenship. However, given the toxic nature of things in this country anymore and so my child could sleep at night, I decided that it was worth it to spend $1170 on this Certificate of Citizenship from Homeland Security. That is a prohibitive amount of money for most people who would benefit from having the COC as a COC never expires. In our case the money here would be far better spent on tuition, but at least I was able to round up the money. AS for the FAFSA, it still shows that she is not confirmed as a citizen.
89
@DW from CT
Bureaucracies can be crazy. Just this week I was dealing with a bureaucrat (private sector) who was irate because I had lost my ID number and they weren't sure that I was who I said I was. Finally they said they would issue me a new ID number so that I could give it to them and "prove" who I was. When I said this was rather illogical, the bureaucrat couldn't understand what I was talking about.
10
@DW from CT Social Security Numbers DO NOT prove citizenship. Foreigners working legally in the US have social security numbers to track withholdings and taxes.
4
@Mike, yes I know that, hence keeping a valid passport. However, the FAFSA collects your information from Social Security who knows your status and SS knew she was indeed a citizen. Yet, the SS office did not provide this confirmation that my daughter was a citizen to the FAFSA office, meaning that until we proved otherwise, she was not eligible for financial aid. I think that if one bureaucracy has the info, they should be able to provide it to the others.
4
My son was born in Korea while my husband was stationed there. We have a Korean birth certificate from the hospital, but his official birth certificate is a "Consular Report of Birth Abroard" from the American Consulate certifying that he is a US citizen from birth. I hadn't occurred to me that these might be relatively new documents. In the past, have places like the DMV accepted foreign birth certificates along with the person's assertion that they are an American citizen?
9
@Amy
I know about this type of situation — the Consular Report should be sufficient to establish citizenship, but you should explore your state's DMV regulations (they vary by state) and the Real ID federal legislation, an element of the Patriot Act that the conservative establishment is using to establish a national identity card.
Most people will find it easier to combine a regular driver's license with a passport to fulfill the new ID rules to fly domestically than to succumb to the government's attempt to discriminate against non-citizens.
If you have the Korean birth certificate that should help, too.
Getting a passport and renewing it regularly would be smart, too. An active passport is a key way of establishing citizenship and nationality— and helps in all sorts of situations where proof of identity impish needed. It ameliorates most problems as this article demonstrated.
Good luck! It's a Kafkaesque nightmare out there.
1
@Amy I have a very similar situation, but the document also came with a passport and ssn card. Just keep the passport up to date and that should usurp other forms of ID.
1
On the surface, Nancy's intention to vote for Trump in 2020 seems incredulous. However, a perverse logic might be at work here.
Miss Nancy is thinking, Wow, look at the stuff I had to go through to get my passport. If this is what they can do to me, a legal person, Trump's ICE must be making so much more trouble for people who really don't have papers and can't prove that they are here legally because they are not. So Mr. Trump is fulfilling his promises of 2016 to Keep America White. Go Trump 2020.
12
@A Common Man
Well, suppose you were wrongfully, falsely accused (under the Obama administration) of doing something more in line with progressive-administration laws (say violating someone's Title IX rights, or not correctly disposing of waste, or not effectively securing a private dam on a private pond.)
(By the way, the last can be a big deal, with massive six-figure fines, happened to my brother who successfully fought it.)
But the charges were unfounded, and you proved that to be the case (albeit at some large inconvenience and expense).
Would you now vote for Trump?
Don't be silly, of course not. Political feeling is very deep, which is a problem in our country.
2
I don’t understand what ICE has to do with Ms. Nuetzi’s situation in this story. It seems that it was the DMV that decided not to accept her birth certificate, and she was never detained by ICE.
21
@nby
Good, careful reading. The reporter slipped that one right past us!
She should have profiled someone who was detained by ICE.
OTOH, the case is still relevant, as were several others she described because, without proof of citizenship, you can be detained and even deported! That’s the Police State we're now living under, one wrought by Trump and the Republicans.
As the article highlights, ICE has detained thousands of U.S. citizens in Texas and hundreds in Rhode Island and Florida. That's not the type of country any of us wantno be living in.
4
@nby Maybe you don't understand the law. Go back to the 2005 REAL ID Act. Unlike some states, Florida complies
I feel sad for Ms. Nuetzi that she went through all those hassles to prove her birth citizenship, but I feel even sadder that she intends to vote again for Trump. If Trump is reelected, even more people will be caught in the Alice in Wonderland world of current enforcement of immigration laws.
107
The Real ID requirements for driver's licenses could make many people unknowingly susceptible to this scenario in states that haven't yet complied with the rule.
Disenfranchisement and lack of accountability seems to be the name of the game these days. Like others, I am dumbfounded by this woman's choice to vote for Trump in 2020.
78
A horror story to be sure. It baffles me that for an action that is so drastic and life-altering, better checks and balances are not in place.
12
@Gary
You're assuming they want to avoid these "mistakes".
The greatness of America has always been something of a fiction, most especially for those who have been anything other than white and male. Now, that fiction appears to have been coauthored by George Orwell and Franz Kafka, as the country begins to resemble some sort of surreal dystopia. No one is safe.
Who will write the next chapter? Those who embrace justice, equality, diversity, and decency? Or those who would oppose such, whether out of self-serving malice or self-defeating ignorance? It gets no easier from here on.
So put down your smart phones and shopping bags, America, and actively RESIST—lest the next door that government agents break down is your own.
113
@David J.
You couldn't be more wrong. The Orwellian future you fear is here at the pleasure of the extreme left that promotes groupthink, socialism, a world without borders, etc. What does "resist" even mean? If you want to overthrow the US in favor of globalism just say so.
2
Losing issue for Dems.
Legal Immigrants, yes.
People gaming asylum laws to skip the line, no.
Dems better get a more majority viewpoint on this issue fast, or we’ll have trump again.
32
@Jane, you didn’t read the article. This is about ICE detaining legal US citizens. It doesn’t discuss asylum seekers.
11
@Jane
I would say preventing ICE from deporting -- US CITIZENS -- will play well in Peoria.
5
@Jane
I'm afraid you're right.
1
If you witness an ICE seizure in progress, film it. Write down the address, time and day, and do not erase it. Do not be intimidated, you are allowed to film on the street.
90
Seems like some flagrant violations of the fifth amendment.
12
America has always been great, however it had not always been right. The lessons of history are clear for what we should do and the purpose for which we as a country need to evolve for justice. Unfortunately for us the meaning of our constitution is being corrupted by the Republican Party with Donald Trump spearheading the assault.
14
@Bruce How many illegal immigrants have you taken into your home this year?
Time to walk the talk...or realize that without us being a nation of laws...we are not a nation at all.
If you get to pick and choose which laws to follow and which to ignore...those stop signs between you and the liquor store really don't mean what they say...just blow on through them at your will.
If you want us to become lawless, I get it. I hate many of the laws on the books in Minnesota so if you can ignore the laws you don't like, I'm going to start ignoring the laws I don't like.
Within about 10 years..we ought to have the same law & order as Guatamala or El Salvador...or Mexico.
Capisci?
3
If someone wants the country to change they cannot make a vote that makes no sense. Millions of Americans actually think that Trump cares about them. Sad.
As for mass deportations by ICE, they are based on myths that immigrants are taking our jobs and are abusing the safety net. This is simply ridiculous and as the author points out, just a cover for Trump's racist nationalism.
71
@Anthony There is a distinction illegal and legal immigrants. In southern ca in the 70's apparently carwashes used to employ many black people they were displaced by illegals. Construction used to be filled with tons of illegals it depressed wages significantly. Now they are giving these illegals healthcare. What is left of middle america is incredibly tired of the incompetence of the government to enforce the laws on the books. There are people who support Trump based on this reason alone, that the immigration system is fundamentally broken,and that he was the only one pointing this out on a national level. I do not support Trump at all but he has the pulse of the people on this issue a stronger counter, to the open borders nonsense that most democrats are espousing.
4
Thank you for this fine and informative piece.
I was already well aware of the politicization of ICE by Trump, and that means inevitably the introduction of a racist agenda to these hideous roundups which lies at the basis of Trumpism.
What I was NOT sufficiently aware of is the possibility of inaccurate information being used for making these arrests. I just assumed these were ironclad cases.
I can scarcely imagine the nightmare unreality of being an immigrant caught in the web of an ICE raid. But to be an AMERICAN CITIZEN, falsely apprehended, and somehow unable to prove your own citizenship—we are in the world of Kafka at that point.
The character of our country is changing, and these upcoming ICE raids are a good manifestation of the change. We are becoming cruel. Our cruelty is sadly reflecting the character of Trump himself.
For myself, I think he is merely using the raids to deflect attention from the upcoming Mueller testimony. He will ruin lives just to help his poll numbers, and as you point out, some of those lives are American citizens who even voted for him.
The whole thing is shameful.
92
@Paul McGlasson
Becoming cruel? I think we’re well past “becoming “. Children being separated from their parents, thousands of people being held in unsanitary conditions, must I go on?
For Trump, cruelty = policy. Cruelty is literally the point. Trump wants to demonstrate cruelty as a means of deterring immigration.
4
@Mary Ann
A good point, certainly valid.
But there is protest—you yourself included. And as long as there is protest, I am unwilling to give up on the country as a whole.
It will be when protest is silenced that we are done for. May that day never come!
1
The last time I renewed my passport, I also got a passport card for my wallet. Best to be prepared in a nation slouching to tyranny.
70
@Steve Bolger
I also got one, mostly for if I visit Canada. Now I think I too will start keeping it in my wallet. We live in crazy times.
25
@Steve Bolger
I'll be doing this.
That last paragraph broke my heart.
119
It should harden your heart, not break it.
2
@Laura And mine as well. Are we not capable of learning anymore?
1
We have a moral obligation to oppose this organization and all those who support it.
As always, hit em where it hurts- their wallet. When dems once again have control, we should work to reappropriate ICE’s budget and use its officers’ pensions to pay settlements to all US citizens falsely detained.
19
@Lana Lee
We do have a duty, but I am in a quandary these days about activism. How do you shame people who have no shame?
2
And she would vote for him again? We are doomed.
230
Pretty simple the US needs a national ID card. I don’t understand why we don’t have one, most countries do. The little blue scrap of paper from the SSA office was great in 1940, but woefully behind the times.
13
@Stephanie
There is precedence for distinguishing certain humans in the population from others. This was done in the 30s and 40s and the method was to attach the yellow star of David to one's clothing. Not only is this headed in this direction, but for the very same reason - just different religion/culture, etc.
39
@Stephanie - Agreed, this is necessary. Feds need to take the lead on this.
5
@Stephanie: We are already headed in that direction through the Enhanced ID scheme. "An enhanced license (permit, or non-driver ID) is a New York State DMV issued document that you can use instead of a passport to return to the US by land or sea from Canada, Mexico and some countries in the Caribbean. New York's EDL is compliant with the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI)." (https://dmv.ny.gov/driver-license/get-enhanced-driver-license-edl)
It's stunning that Ms. Nuetzi, after her ordeal, still admires Trump and will vote for him again. And ICE needs to be reined in
or shut down.
136
@Barry Moyer
For some reason, the most ardent and aggressive anti-immigration people seem to be the first generation or those naturalized.
2
Come to think about it, she may be being smart! She’s put her name out here, so she may be saying what she knows Trump’s zealots even in ICE would want to hear/read. She knows they’ll read this. It’s in the national paper! Even Trump might read it, probably will. I doubt she’ll vote for him again!!! It’s the smart thing to say!! She won’t, in fact!!!
@BlackJackJacques But she's NOT first generation or naturalized. She is a US citizen by birth. Read the article.
1
I had sympathy for this woman until it was disclosed in the last paragraph she would be voting for trump again in 2020. No wonder we’re in the predicament we currently find ourselves!
452
@Sue M I felt the same way.
40
@Sue M I agree. It defies logic that so many people are willing to continue to vote against themselves.
6
@Sue M I lost sympathy for this woman the second it was revealed she voted for trump in 2016.
If you couldn't see within the first 15 to 20 seconds of ever seeing trump on TV for the first time that he was patently unfit to be president, you were way, way too stupid ever to have been allowed to vote in the first place. Indeed, such people (trump voters) have amply demonstrated that they are barely fit to be allowed out of the house by themselves in the morning without some kind of adult escort.
7
"After he was released, Mr. Watson filed a complaint and a court awarded him compensation in 2016. The next year, an appeals court decided the statute of limitations for that complaint had expired while he was still in ICE custody."
That's some catch, that Catch-22.
Best there is.
315
@Cwnidog
They probably learned it from the retired or retiring staff at the VA. My mom heard an equally absurd story when she filed for dad.
The VA staff had to come up with a wide variety of creative excuses when WW2 veterans and their dependents started filing for benefits.
5
Just goes to show how important a good lawyer is. “Liberty and justice for......those who can afford it”.
7
This horror story has a truly frightening ending.
Tracy is voting for trump in 2020.
482
@Kathy Bee
And voted for him in 2016.
Some people apparently just cannot, will not learn.
70
@Kathy Bee
Maybe she insisted on that being in the article to get attention from Trump and to prevent them from further harrassing her. She is a victim and likely afraid of what they would do to her by speaking out - so by putting that statement in the end - maybe in her mind they will stop victimizing her.
15
@Kathy Bee
Tracy seems to have the symptoms of internalized racism that are difficult to grasp and that, at least to me, elicit empathy and exasperation. In the end, she thinks that Trump's attempts to make America whiter again are justified, that she and those that look like her are really worth less than others. How tragic, what a long way we have to go yet.
12
Democrats should think very carefully and do something - if they want the votes of immigrants in the upcoming presidential election. Immigrants will turn their back on the Democrats if they don't do something right now and clearly show Democrats being on the side of immigrants.
30
Oh, I think any immigrant has to think really hard now. You barely heard any democrats talk about this yesterday. In fact, they’re busy punishing the ones who have talked about it, like Cortez, and they just have money which is probably being used for these actions.
3
@Nicole Don't worry, Democrats show daily that they are on the side of *illegal* immigrants
4
I'm afraid that Tracy Nuetzi, Trump voter, is going to go down in history as the perfect example of "be careful of what you wish for" or in this case "of who you vote for"
She can now join that always expanding club of those who had faith in trump and have found that they were wrong. Maybe the farmers who grow soy beans can move over a bit and make room for her.
216
But she’s voting for him again. Baffling.
42
@sjs Except she hasn't found out that she's wrong. She still plans to vote for Trump next year.
30
and she is going to vote for him again. How to get your head around that one.
47
Invalidated birth certificate? What restrictions have tightened and how does it relate to Ms. Nuetzi?
And the others? What was the reason given?
I have no doubt any government agency has too much power to make unaccountable mistakes but we need more than vague cherry picking for the sake of the narrative.
Inevitably ICE will make mistakes just as any government agency governing 330 million people does. And they should be held accountable but that doesn't mean they should be abolished and immigration laws should not be enforced.
34
Your comment is a wonderful example of why we have these problems. ICE does not govern anyone. That anyone should think that shows why they continue to treat us like the sheep we act like.
14
@CNNNNCThat doesn't mean they should be abolished....unless they come for you mistakenly correct? And would you be able to work during your incarceration/detainment/imprisonment? Wrong solution. Let's find a better way.
11
@CNNNNC
So, just how would you feel if you were one of ICE's mistakes? And those examples were not "vague cherry picking", they were examples of horrible things done to real people by the US government.
31
I am a EU citizen with two European nationalities. For me it is hard to reconcile the article's report with the USA being a developed and democratic country. If the two countries I am a citizen of would treat me like reported in the article, I would try hard to get the citizenship of a third EU country and then, I would consider giving up my citizenship of those countries which treated me badly. Probably, suing the countries at the European Court of Justice (ECJ) would be sufficient to teach them to better behave. I never realized before reading the article how beneficial to democracy supranational institutions like the ECJ might be!
191
@FFFF: You write "For me it is hard to reconcile the article's report with the USA being a developed and democratic country."
It's hard for us to reconcile it as well. We used to be, but this is what fascism does to democracies.
6