It’s hard to believe that this article and the NY Post linked article are about the same thing. One or both of these articles have serious deficiencies.
37
She wanted her pay to be raised to the level of her male predecessor, who had held the job for less than a year. Dr. Lowe trots out the usual male excuses for harassment. The congregation was shocked at her being forced to leave but the "governing council" apparently has the final say. It's the 21st century, but churches linger in the past.
56
So if a male pastor had given a colleague; male or female, a sex toy while traveling for work, that would be acceptable?
Why should it matter whether the church is 'liberal' or 'traditional'?
Why should Bulter be held to a different standard because she's 'liberal'?
28
I know of Dr. Butler’s work, have heard preach and have the greatest respect for her abilities as an administrator and as a pastor.
There’s little doubt in my mind that here again we have an outstanding female cleric being sacrificed at the altar of an entrenched patriarchy.
It is true that the most sexist time of the week is 11 o’clock on Sunday mornings.
52
We live in an age of charged religious change- is it the religion or us? Both really. The patriarchal mosaic tradition does not fit well with alternate interpretations, hence great pushback from purists. Why has Jesus saved the world then leisurely chosen not to return for two thousand years while the same misery and woe foists upon humanity? I guess the answer is one that has shifted from visceral to metaphysical over the ages. Abstract arguments are hardest upon which to reach consensus.
4
As a retired Presbyterian (progressive branch) pastor, I know full well that the wider church, as elsewhere in society, is a tougher environment for women. The fact that Rev. Butler was not being paid what her predecessor was is one area to question. Though more information is needed, women pastors are often simply paid less.
I would like to have heard more about what the supposed management missteps were. On the one hand, it is highly believable that the church lay leaders took issue with this pastor reporting sexual harassment (many churches like to sweep it under the rug) and viewed her as a trouble maker for it. On the other hand, a woman, as well as a man, should be challenged on her leadership decisions and style. Sadly, in the latter, it is harder for a woman to get a fair hearing for she will be criticized as domineering or aggressive for things which are rated as positives when a man does them.
I do find the trip to the sex shop strange and troubling. If true, I would have liked to hear from Rev. Butler on that as it seems to show poor judgement.
52
Thank you NY Times for doing more investigation, then editing and reporting a truer account of what is happening at Riverside Church.
However, you still have more investigation to do for the corruption that you reported that Pastor Amy exhibited is just a tip of the iceberg.
19
Thank you NY Times for doing more investigation, then editing and reporting a truer account of what is happening at Riverside Church.
However, you still have more investigation to do for the corruption that you reported that Pastor Amy exhibited is just the tip of the iceberg.
7
We have heard her laudable response to the obnoxious harassing Dr. Lowe.
What was her response to the sojourn in Minneapolis during the religious conference?
Apparently she has had no comment.
16
This gives the whole thing away, even more than the T-shirt: "Among the points of contention were her push for a substantial raise, to bring her compensation closer to that of her predecessor."
Closer? So equal was out of the question?
65
@Mary k And note that that predecessor was only in the job for less than a year, so there's no question of matching a pay scale based on time in service.
28
I have tried to understand what Mr. Rojas was writing about in the Times article on Riverside and Dr. Amy Butler. It was clear that something was missing, the article did appear to be thorough. Whatever was going on at Riverside Church was not being shaped by the relationship of Dr. Butler and Dr. Lowe. After an article in appeared in the New York Post, I have a better understanding of the issues involved. Shame on the Times and Mr. Rojas.
38
I’m not Christian, but I live in the neighborhood. It’s an incredible building, bordered by Sakura Park, Riverside Park and Grant’s Tomb. If you’re in the area, it’s worth seeing.
As to the controversy, I’m quite sure the odious fellow who sexually harassed his pastor is either moneyed or has deep ties to others with money. As it was, so shall it ever by. Money equals influence in the non-secular areas just as it does in the secular ones.
33
Interesting how both Rev. Butler and Dr. Lowe when confronted with their own sexual harassment transgressions predictably play the "victim card" . Welcome to the world of progressive politics.
28
I think this is an excellent development. All churches are rotten institutions, with a large helping of misogyny and abuse of women thrown in for good measure. I don't understand why a woman would want to belong to one in the first place. By demonstrating their continued commitment to misogyny, this church will perhaps persuade more women to shun it.
12
"A bully can only ride your back if you bend over . . . but I stood tall and erect"
Does this guy HEAR himself. This language is dripping with sexual innuendo and macho bluster.
107
With all due respect, this isn’t a problem with a particular church.
This is a problem with religion in general.
Just ask Mr. Pence.
35
If any congregation irrespective of denomination were interviewing a minister, and the minister stated she would enjoy taking reluctant church employees to "progressive sex stores," the interview would be over. Sorry, but this is an instant disqualification and grounds for termination.
35
The $250K p.a. salary plus housing etc. is eye-popping! Rev. Butler is on the wrong side of the command to "comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable."
33
@Killoran
If that was the compensation package for the former senior minister, who happened to be male, Rev. Dr. Butler should receive the same package.
24
What is it with the church and sex? Between the Catholic priests and now the Protestant old man harassment. What do you think God thinks? Isn’t he all knowing and seeing?
15
Too often churches conveniently cleave to a less adherent identification with Christ. Some verses are great, while other verses are considered "not exactly what Christ meant (even if it reads that way) and and others are completely discarded.
Throughout the centuries man has been guilty of making God's church "in their own image"; conservative to the point of completely living by the very law Christ died to eradicate, liberal to the point of "anything goes" so everyone feels included. In our effort to ensure that the "whole world hears", we should be completely certain that the whole world will not necessarily go along with they've just heard. As a result, the Son of Man, whether accidentally or otherwise, is turned into an idol. Hard to imagine us "reason[ing] together when we lead with our flesh instead of the Spirit He freely offers.
2
"The Rev. Dr. Amy Butler, the first woman to lead Manhattan’s famed Riverside Church, lost her lofty post amid complaints that she brought ministers and a congregant on a sex toy shopping spree and then gave one of them an unwanted vibrator as a birthday gift, The Post has learned.
On May 15, Butler allegedly took two Riverside assistant ministers and a female congregant to a sex shop in Minneapolis called the Smitten Kitten, during a religious conference, according to sources familiar with the out-of-town shopping excursion.
At the store, the pastor bought a $200 bunny-shaped blue vibrator called a Beaded Rabbit for one minister — a single mom of two who was celebrating her 40th birthday — as well as more pleasure gadgets for the congregant and herself, sources said.
The female minister didn’t want the sex toy, but accepted it because she was scared not to, sources said."
So her own behavior is not sexual harassment, right?
What a joke.
58
A pastor is to be PASTORAL!
Taking parishioners to a sex shop is probably not acting pastoral nor does it demonstrate PROFESSIONAL JUDGEMENT.
I worked for 10 years at the Episcopal school of the Graduate Theological Union https://www.gtu.edu/ .....I saw a wide variety of people seeking ordination while the church was struggling w the imposition of women and LGBTQ seeking to become priests. ....Again, a pastor is to be pastoral. .....Exploding w one's own issues, projecting one's own anger, generally is NOT being pastoral.
This woman went to the Southern Baptist University - Baylor -- and obviously grew up in an out-of-control, very judgemental environment (as I did attending First Baptist Dallas as a child).
There is definitely a spiritual "call" for righteous anger , ie, examine Jesus throwing over the tables of the money changer, but it takes a hell of a lot of introspection and courage to pastor w/o anger.
15
I don’t get why a 70 year old man would think those sorts of comments would be acceptable to any woman, much less a minister. He is certainly old enough to know better
54
To Riverside Church and all church members everywhere.
Don’t lose your hope and faith. Churches are full of turmoil as are all human endeavors. Some will lose their faith over this sort of thing. Don’t let that happen to you. The church is not God. Attend to your own relationship w God and do your best to love your own imperfect and messed up church.
If someone would like to show me a human endeavor, a human institution, without trouble or scandal go ahead. But if it hasn’t hit that institution yet, just wait. It will we are all in this messy human experience together. The churches and the unchurched.
21
Dr. Butler:
I feel certain you would be welcomed in the Unitarian Universalist church. You need to perhaps expand your consciousness beyond mainstream Christianity to the UU philosophy that embraces all religions, not just Christianity.
Best wishes.
20
I stopped attending Arlington Street Church in Boston, a supposedly very liberal UU church due to sexual harassment. A well regarded member refused to keep his hands of my body during a seder. He was obscene during a church service.
Choir members were just harassing. As members of an outside choir they had no room for amateurs.
It was a church that was rife with arrogant, crude and harassing individuals. But is sure was liberal.
Liberal politics doesn't stop people from acting out with sexual abuse.
22
And this behavior is funded through taxpayer money. Tax exemptions for religious institutions should end NOW! For each $ of tax emotion the rest of us have to pitch in more. Someone else has to make up the difference...Federal, state and local. This should stop NOW.
19
@Justice Holmes: Out of curiosity, how much of a profit do you think most churches make upon which the government could impose income taxes?
15
Exactly. No way. Sweet B is not appropriate. The Bword is never appropriate unless one has a veterinary degree. It is an obscenity. I hope the Rev Dr sues the Church, the Board of Trustees and I would like to know if her clergy group is backing her up and representing her. Riverside used to the Rockefeller Church. I hope that the Rockefeller’s are stepping up,and protecting the Rev.
9
Women should not be priest. It says so in the Bible. Break one rule eventually you will break them all.
11
@Jonathan THE BIBLE approves of genocide. There are passages that approve of stoning people to death.
If you don't support these rules then you are a cafeteria religious.
Which means that you twist and turn religious rules to suit your personal definitions of behavior. Since you attempt demonstrate a cause and effect between a supposed rule and sexual harassment you are approving of sexual harassment.
Why?
35
I’m sure the “ Christians” who voted for her dismissal felt that Christ would have wanted her harassed and Silenced! These individuals are anti Christ. They are the people about whom Christ warned us. The congregation should rise up against their board and dismiss them!
7
The NYT begins to view all things through one lens. This isn't accurate.
19
Churches can be inspiring, uplifting, consoling, challenging, loving communities that enrich their members unlike any other institution in society. Mine is, and my life is immeasurably improved through church membership. I think our congregation and broader community likewise benefit through the work and presence of our church in many people's lives.
I offer this testimony because this article understandably is bringing out lots of church-bashing and Christianity-dismissing comments. It is sadly true that many churches provoke those reactions. But please don't write off the whole concept of church! There is a lot of good to be had and achieved through organized worship, ministry, and mission (or if that word makes you nervous, service), and by a coming together of people to explore their faith and how to live in the world. A lot will be lost if we abandon our churches. Imperfect human institutions they are, but at their best they are literally transcendent, and that's not so easy to come by.
18
Vindicated? Really? Sounds like "no collusion" to me...
Does the NYT not think it might be germane to know what sect this is? Or are we all supposed to know?
10
@mony "Riverside Church is an interdenominational, interracial, international, open, welcoming, and affirming church and congregation"
10
The Riverside Church is dually aligned with the United Church of Christ and The American Baptist Churches USA.
8
@mony Heard of the internet? Use it. It's good tool.
5
What denomination is Riverside? All the article says is “mainline Protestant.” This is an important fact to have omitted.
12
I've been a member of this church since 2004 when Dr. Forbes was the Senior Minister, and all seemed cohesive and I was happy. The inclusive community was a draw, and I was excited by the mosaic of people. The Church had so many programs that were fun, such as the Christmas Toy Drive or Make-A-Wish initiatives. Cut to Dr. Forbes' retirement and the search for a new minister. I never saw such horror, back biting and disgusting behavior of the clergy and simply stopped attending. When the new minister, Dr. Braxton quit shortly after, I knew I wasn't wrong.
I just returned this January and was getting comfortable with the community, and Dr. Butler was fine.
I cannot believe this turn. What is wrong at Riverside? It's so much better than this. I'm horrified.
28
I’m a graduate of Yale Divinity School (where I met Amy) and now teach in a secular school. Unfortunately, working in religious environments was not tenable for me as a queer woman. I was harassed about my perceived sexuality by a colleague in my department (and no onlookers stopped it), forced to go into the closet by another school’s admin despite being promised I could be out, and witnessed a male admin call middle school girls I was teaching “attractive” at a faculty meeting. Religious spaces are hostile places for minorities still, and my Yale degree has not protected me. Sad, but not surprised by this.
43
@MKM I should add that all these actions were perpetrated by religious men in power.
15
@MKM
Sad to say, they may be in power, but I don't think they have God's blessing for what they do.
9
@MKM these men are not religious! They are like the written tombs of scripture...white and beautiful on the outside but fill with filth and sin inside.
12
They hate women, pure & simple.
27
@Marsha V Hammond PhD
I have to disagree. There are many woman in the clergy and if they hated them, Dr. Butler wouldn't have been the Senior Minister. I think it's like Mayberry, little people with too much time on their hands causing all this trouble. I don't get it.
10
Most churches have BOTH decent parishioners and problematic ones.
Religious organizations are like other organizations. BOTH useful and problematic.
I'm not religious, but it troubles me that many people condemn the totality of an institution, when only a part of it needs fixing.
I wish the Rev. Dr. Butler well. And I hope Dr. Lowe re-evaluates his behavior and takes the necessary steps to make amends.
20
So, the first African-American senior minister and the first woman senior minister resigned sooner than would have been desired.
This is ALL ABOUT racism and gender. Plus class, plus resistance to change, plus bad behavior by congregants that gets excused over and over and over and over.
I say this as a Unitarian Universalist minister who has seen and experienced older, mostly white, congregations tear their younger and more diverse ministers to pieces. And who has seen congregations whose governance is congregational polity live with the delusion that congregational polity means the congregation is in charge of everything. Not exactly.
Blessings to Rev Dr Butler for a good future and years of fruitful ministry.
39
@Cyndi Simpson Dr. Braxton was not the first African-American Senior Minister. Dr. Forbes was, and served for 18 years.
19
I’m not debating the persistence of racism in the church, just clarifying that the first African American Senior Minister, Dr. James Forbes served for 18 years.
8
@Cyndi Simpson
Riverside Church is not predominantly white. You are making some assumptions that are shaky.
The dynamics at Riverside are more complicated than you realize.
5
Why is Ed Lowe still there? Come on - $$$$.
22
What's the new t-shirt say, Doc -- Gone, Girl?
13
The depth of male cluelessness is truly disheartening.
40
Old white man bullies woman in power. Old white man retains power. Woman ousted.
This is not new and this is not news.
49
@Kristine Ed Lowe is African American. He no longer serves on the Church’s Council. His term expired in May
6
@Kristine
You are assuming Dr. Ed Lowe is white.
This is an incorrect assumption.
4
Male patriarchy strikes again.
32
Dr. Lowe's behavior checks all the boxes for aggressive, sexual harassment. Too often the harasser blames the victim, says they were just joking, trying to get to know or talking with the victim. Actually his actions and comments as reported are breathtakingly awful.
In checking the Riverside website, Dr. Lowe is still on the Board and another commenter here said that he is listed as being on the Budget and Planning Committee in 2019.
Dr. Butler will find a home church and community that want to grow. Dr. Lowe needs to not be in a position of power.
68
@jay Ed lowe is no longer on the Church council. His term ended in May 2019. The website was not updated to show the 19-20 term.
2
The seven words deadly to an inclusive, progressive church: "We never did it that way before."
Dr. Lowe has always done it "that way." Men in charge, women taking their feelings of adequacy from an admiring man who signals how sexy they make him feel.
Dr. Lowe won't change no matter how the rest of the world turns. He will never admit that a woman can occupy a position of authority without a man to guide her.
The church needs fewer angry old bullies and more dedicated, spiritually aware, loving people of all ages, genders, and whatever other divisive titles you can think of.
46
Anne Berry Bonnyman was Rector of Trinity Church, Boston MA. She left under a cloud of very unchristian treatment. A series of Lectures was started under her name to "honor" her. The damage was done.
10
@justme I attended Emmanuel around the corner. I was going through a challenging period. The intern priest (or priest in training) took me under his wing to counsel over several lunches. But the day he stated he was sexually interested in me, and I declined, the kind and loving pastoral counseling terminated.
It is sickeningly amazing how many people in churches use them as pickup places. Or worse as places to recruit chidren and young adults for sexual use.
11
This article is very vague about her critics complaints, her style was incompatible? Forgiveness is one of the most important tenets of Christianity and is oddly missing here.
15
Very happy to see over 30% of Americans are now agnostic.
34
Based on the reporting, Lowe's comments/observations and behavior come across as offensive at the least. In addition, there seems to be more to this story than meets the eye, which is unfortunate.
18
If “condescending and dismissive” behavior is enough to create a hostile work environment for women, then may maybe the Victorians were right; maybe women are constitutionally unsuited to public life. Men are rough on each other all the time and they’re strong enough to take it. If you are genuinely equal, you can take it too.
Most of the behavior being complained about seems like ordinary, casual joking around. Only the use of the b-word is actually over the line.
And applying Freudian analysis to the remark about bullies (which I’ve heard before in other contexts)? Really?
3
@Z97
Still applying that Freudian analysis, are you? You have a bit of catching up to do.
12
@theresa,by Freudian analysis I was referring to several comments which
claimed that the use of the word “erect” in the bully remark by Dr. Lowe obviously meant something sexual.
1
I can not believe these people from the church actually allowed themselves to be quoted saying some of this nonsense. This church has long been more committed to burnishing it’s image as a progressive bastion than actually walking the walk.
8
Funny how churches behave like corporations, lie and dissemble like corporations, cover up like corporations, politic like corporations but don’t want to be taxed like corporations.
“No comment” say the ruling hierarchy through their lawyer ... how very corporate of them.
25
Regardless of how one finally assesses the current situation at Riverside, a lovely hymn from one of its great pastors, Harry Emerson Fosdick, is certainly relevant to our NATIONAL situation:
1 God of grace and God of glory,
on your people pour your power;
crown your ancient church's story,
bring its bud to glorious flower.
Grant us wisdom, grant us courage,
for the facing of this hour,
for the facing of this hour.
2 Lo! the hosts of evil round us
scorn the Christ, assail his ways!
From the fears that long have bound us
free our hearts to faith and praise.
Grant us wisdom, grant us courage,
for the living of these days,
for the living of these days.
3 Cure your children's warring madness;
bend our pride to your control;
shame our wanton, selfish gladness,
rich in things and poor in soul.
Grant us wisdom, grant us courage,
lest we miss your kingdom's goal,
lest we miss your kingdom's goal.
4 Save us from weak resignation
to the evils we deplore;
let the gift of your salvation
be our glory evermore.
Grant us wisdom, grant us courage,
serving you whom we adore,
serving you whom we adore.
Indeed.
17
Thank you so very much for reminding me of Henry Emerson Fosdick. “Exalt good will again.”
1
I would be interested in knowing how many of the members of the governing council are old, white men who saw their power slipping away.
29
The real power in these churches does not belong to the congregation or the pastor, it lies with the small number of donors who fund an outsize portion of annual expenses. They can use their influence for good or for evil - many choose the latter. They can pay lip service to progressive 'issues' while ensuring that nothing truly progressive actually happens. These churches strike a faustian bargain with these donors - but maintaining the patriarchy is always job one.
49
I expected more of my denomination's church, Riverside, considered a "bastion of liberalism" in Manhattan. Riverside was one of the first ONA churches in my denomination (Open & Affirming of LGBT), and so one would have high hopes. But like any institution, there are problems that are or can become "endemic" including "internal politics" (not of the electoral kind, mind you.) Being that female pastors are still referred to as "women pastors" instead of "pastors" (sans gender), is itself a comment on our times, which has not improved in any progressive way despite turnover in membership. One can have hope for the younger generations, but it is not age alone (nor "generation") that determines changes of heart and mind. Sad.... Seen from the eyes of a progressive sexogenarian.... In 40 years there has not been enough change in the status of women, even in the UCC. Said from experience. Going across town to Judson "might" help some, but wake up Riverside... this might be your clarion call.
21
The truth is Riverside is a very large, complex non-profit religious institution with a long history of conflict that predates Dr. Butler. I refer to Riverside as a non-profit institution because honestly, nothing in how Riverside's leadership is reported to have acted is consistent with what I know to be a church.
Meanwhile, Dr. Butler has long been one of the nation's leading clergy -- this was the case before she arrived in New York. Her sermons and leadership have inspired people across the country, not just at the Riverside Church. I have no doubt that she will go forward in her career and continue to preach the Gospel and build community wherever God sends her next.
My concerns are for the people who are invested in Riverside. Candidly, your problem is with your membership and lay leaders -- it's not with your pastors or your employees. Until you learn to love one another and live in community, your conflicts will continue. My prayer for you is that you stop spending so much time "doing Church" and spend more time "being the Church", for each other, for your neighborhood and for all of New York.
35
I live not far from this church and have noticed their rainbow flags and other signs expressing tolerance and inclusion. How sad that now I will probably view those flags as cynical cover for yet another sexual harassment case covered up by loud announcements of goodness.
57
As an actual member of Riverside Church, this article is breathtaking in its slant and what it chooses not to say regarding the dismissal of Ms. Butler. Blaming the dismissal on Ed Lowe, and not Ms. Butler's performance, is great deflection. But then, what is a person to say about their dismissal from a famous progressive church. NY Times reporters, please do your jobs completely.
28
@Riverside Member
I am also a Riversider, and from my experience, you are in a small minority. Virtually everyone I have spoken with at Riverside is both stunned and grieving her loss. I'll edit this post if I meet even one Riversider (in person- not cloaked by online anonymity) who is in favor of this decision.
66
@yankeefan here is one. I definitely would not want her to have been dismissed under these circumstances. But her treatment of reverend j and other diverse ministers was horrific and still makes me angry. Also the quality of her preaching was very disappointing- particularly as compared to reverend Forbes who was the reason I joined the church.
4
@Riverside Member Another member here. I didn't see anything wrong. Perhaps it's because she didn't spend the yearly floral budget at Easter is the problem?
7
Dr. Butler deserves far better treatment than she has received from the governing council of the Riverside Church. As for Dr. Lowe and his "Sweet Bitch" tee shirt, it is high time that he, and others of his generation, be held accountable for their pathetic attitudes towards women whether they are bosses, peers or subordinates.
78
What if they had a church with no congregation? That’s where the sexist, immature, old idiots are heading. They may retain the aged members but hopefully the others will find a different church.
32
@Paulie
Not every aging UCC or other progressive church members are "old idiots." And there is not always a high positive correlation between age and conservative/fundamental beliefs, and no full correlation, either, between length of membership vs. newcomers. I find your comment to be ageist.
7
@Anon (another woman) Ageist? I'm 64!
9
Church bullies are real. They are destructive and divisive, and above all, they are selfish. they put their needs, wants and feelings above the good of the whole, and often rejoice in the ashes of the mess they helped make, calling it progress.
I don’t know Amy Butler personally, but it was an inspiration to me when she was called to Riverside. I thought, “Finally. Progress.” (Even if it took the untimely departure of yet another dude for them to take a chance on a female HOS, I was hopeful). So reading this article is painful. I feel the absence of her own voice in this mess (I suspect she is trying to take the high road) while her harasser gloats at his success and denies impropriety. I am reminded of every person who has (well-intentioned or not) diminished me or reduced my ministry to a set of generalizations about women or off color jokes, and then accused me of being stiff or unapproachable when I didn’t laugh right back.
All this to say, I’m so sad to read this, but not surprised in the least.
45
@Sarah W. Having been ordained over thirty-five years ago, I can tell you the struggle is real. I still can’t decide who was worse, the senior pastor who was a male or a small but aggressive group of women in the church. I left parish ministry and went into a chaplains position - one of the best decisions I ever made. And I was a part of one of the most liberal denominations in the country. Female pastors in more conservative denominations had it much worse than I.
20
The Times article refers to Dr Ed Lowe as "an influential former member of the church’s governing council" but I see on the church's website that he has been elected to oversee the Budget and Planning Committee in 2019 - so it would seem that he is still in a very important position. It is absolutely incredible to me that despite the fact that the outside company investigating the complaints against him found that he "had violated the church’s anti-harassment policy and engaged in behavior that was “condescending and dismissive” , and despite the facts that he feels, in his own words, that these findings are "a put-up job", the church still keeps him in such a position of power. They have made it clear just how accepting they are of behavior towards women that is belittling, demeaning, condescending and patronizing. "Sweet Bitch" was a “gesture on my part to be friendly.” Indeed. Does anyone believe this for a minute? Sickening.
121
@mahajoma Governing Council versus Budget and Planning Committee. Two different bodies.
I have tried to hold my thoughts and comments, but at this point, I have to say I have HAD IT with old white men. So many men at age 70 and older who have NO problem harassing women and acting like pigs. And they refuse to change or have to be dragged to shift in behavior. and then whine about all of it. The sooner these horrible individuals - from the WH on down - take leave of public life - in politics, religion, academe, business, non-profits and so forth - the better. DONE with them and their kind.
32
"Sweet Bitch", indeed! This is the kind of congregant a church does not need leading a church into the 21st century. This kind of congregant is why the Episcopal church is losing members rapidly. The old fogy, who says it's his way, or the highway.
Good luck, old man. There will be no one left to usher at your memorial service.
40
@Kim Morris " This kind of congregant is why the Episcopal church is losing members rapidly."
Nothing like using an article about Riverside's problem to air your unsubstantiated opinion on another. So let's put some meat on the bone you threw into this thread - and it's from the Episcopal News Service.
"The Episcopal Church, of course, is not the only mainline Protestant denomination suffering from decline. Only 36 percent of Americans identified as Protestant in an ABC News/Washington Post poll released in May, down from 50 percent in 2003. Overall, Christians declined from 83 percent to 72 percent of Americans over the same period, while those who claim no religion have doubled."
Having gotten in you dig at the Episcopal Church, what is your response to the allover state of Christian churches in this country? You have not given any examples in your statement having anything to do with the article or the alleged sexual harassment written about. In fact, your statement is pretty off topic.
5
Riverside Church is Baptist, not Episcopal.
4
@Diane I know that. What I am responding to? I am responding to Kim Morris who chose to involve the Episcopal Church. I know full well that Riverside Church is NOT Episcopalian. And that's the word EPISCOPALIAN, it is the Episcopal church, but the church is Episcopalian, as are the congregants.
2
Giving a t-shirt that has "Sweet Bitch" on it is a gesture of friendship? In what universe?
From this article it sounds like there is an old vs new issue here. The old line doesn't like the new policies, and doesn't want to give up their 1950's misogynistic mentality. Problem is the church needs congregants and it needs young congregants the most. There are a million churches in Manhattan. Good luck Riverside.
67
Houses of worship can have internal discussions about what traditions to pursue, retain or move away from. Some of those discussions can be heated. But "sweet bitch" and variations of that kind of behavior have nothing to do with any of that. It was a prestigious post, but The Rev. Dr. Amy K. Butler is probably better off out of there. A sad and discouraging story.
29
Why is the creep who gave the Sweet Bitch stuff still welcome as a member of the church? Is there any doubt that he did that? He should have been gone awhile ago.
41
I'm 71 myself, and have no problem understanding how sending a t shirt to a female pastor that says "Sweet Bitch" is offensive. When I was in college, I would have understood that was offensive. Being 70 doesn't excuse him, he isn't a kindly old codger, I'm sure he was a sexist jerk his whole life.
The church made a choice, and picked the MAN who was wrong over the WOMAN who had done nothing wrong. There are lots of churches, and members should go elsewhere. The sexists are welcome to stay.
63
A contract is not the same as tenure in perpetuity, fair enough. But 'style differences' is often a euphemism for 'not comfortable with directions from a woman'. Whereas Lowe's DOCUMENTED comments are unquestionably inappropriate- including, revealingly, in his entirely unprofessional response to the termination of Dr Butler's contract. 'A bully can only ride your back if you bend over'?!? This guy can't refrain from inappropriate personalizing even when he knows he'll be quoted in the Times. Ugh. So the board thinks they've solved their problem by not renewing Dr. Butler's contract. What are they doing about the lech in their midst?
40
“A bully can only ride your back if you bend over, and I stood tall and erect."
Someone needs to teach Dr. Lowe the first lesson of finding yourself in a hole.
Stop digging.
40
'He said he welcomed Dr. Butler’s departure.
“When I heard what was going on, I felt redeemed,” Dr. Lowe said. “I felt my church has been saved. I felt vindicated.”'
Vindicated in what? This man believes that giving a t-shirt and a bottle of wine with the words Sweet Bitch to a senior clergyperson in his church is a friendly gesture? What other pastor would he have given that to?
Maybe there's a reason he is a *former* member of the church council....
38
Congregants can be mean -- so much for deep, abiding Christian values. My deceased brother-in-law was a Moravian missionary and minister. When he and his family moved to a relatively rural church in North Carolina from years in St. Croix and Guyana, they had to deal with gossiping and nasty congregants. Everyone shut up when they had a fellow Moravian visit them from Guyana -- with ebony skin. Was it a 'get-back'? Sure. The congregants had to put their Christianity in perspective.
I have been the happy recipient of many wonderful female ministers in several denominations -- all powerful women. Many men, no matter their faith or age cannot deal with powerful women and will find sure fire ways to demean such as the bitch T shirt/wine message. No way was that a 'friendly' gesture. When men like that can own up to the truth of their gesture, then we might be getting somewhere. At least Rev. Butler did her best while with this congregation. Good luck to them -- get rid of your egos folks.
21
(Dr Lowe) called the wine and T-shirt, which had the “Sweet Bitch” logo, a “gesture on my part to be friendly.”
I think I heard all that I had to hear about this guy, from his own mouth and of course, his predatory habits on the women.
But again, he walks away smug in his lecherous confidence, while Dr. Butler had to quit.
Shame on the council.
69
@Pillai According to the article, Butler's contract was up for renewal. The church failed to renew the contract. So she neither quit nor was "dismissed."
4
Discrimination against women in church will continue unless women stand together against it. If women stopped attending church, or organized a national church-out Sunday, things would change pretty quickly. Many women chose this though.
15
People manifest their own reality. This is the message of Jesus. Watch your thoughts. Watch your attitude. It's all over the bible. Churches that become social justice churches are bound to fail as they have been political and lost most of their integrity.
Young people want to take responsibility for their lives and the evangelical churches at least suggest god is with you outside of the church, is relational, and that you need to follow his way with gratitude and trust.
1
My wife and I live in a country where Christian worship is very limited and we have regularly found spiritual inspiration and comfort from listening to Dr. Amy Butler's sermons online. We are deeply disappointed and disturbed that such a sadly "traditional" end characterized her time at the church.
There is a distinction between faith and religion. Faith is the spiritual search for truth and meaning and the belief that it exists, and that human actions can be good and produce good in the human universe now, both individually and collectively. Dr. Amy Butler and those who supported her know this intuitively. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen." It is invisible and immaterial, nevertheless powerful.
Religion, however, is bureaucratic, political, and tends to exist for its own sake. It has an instinct for power, or cozies up to those who have power, making themselves quite useful. The church contains oftentimes, the Faith and the faithful, and hence has some justification for its existence. But that justification is conditional, as we are learning in the modern age.
Dr. Amy Butler your faith, clear mind and compassionate heart were an inspiration to us. I am deeply saddened by what has happened to you, but it is entirely predictable.
27
As I’ve told my daughter many times, all the religions were fabricated by men. So why would a woman ever join one. It’s one of many reasons that we’re atheists. There’s no way a woman can get fair treatment in an imaginary thing made up by men.
26
@EP I wouldn't call it an imaginary thing - I'd call it a privilege system, like fraternities, corporations, the Ivy League. It's a system that collects, gathers, and dispenses privilege from the privileges, to those they deem worthy to join.
Jesus was a radical in inviting everyone to follow him. This church sounds like it jumped the shark a long time ago in terms of Christianity.
18
"His critics accuse Dr. Forbes, 56 years old, of being authoritarian, aloof, too spontaneous in worship and too much of a fundamentalist, especially in his sermons. They say that under his leadership, more blacks have joined, whites have left and collections have declined. His detractors are both black and white, and they insist that their criticism is not racially motivated. Most are not calling on him to resign, just to be more responsive to complaints." NYTimes 1992 about Rev. James Forbes who was a fabulous preacher! They gently but forcefully pushed him out later and then his replacement lasted only one year before Rev. Butler (who was also terrific) was brought in. Seems like there is a pattern here. Too bad as it's a wonderful church with a long history of activism and a marvelous integrated congregation.
19
@fritz mueller rev butler- who clearly was horribly harassed - was nowhere close to dr Forbes in terms of the quality of her sermons. She also was divisive - many of us are still angry about her dismissal of several talented and beloved diverse ministers.
3
@fritz mueller From all i know about Riverside, this is exactly right spot on. A dysfunctional church with a toxic culture that essentially is a 'clergy-eating' congregation, and clergy each have their own weaknesses and faults. A bad mix. I have been near Riverside many times, but knowing about its toxic culture, i have never wanted to go to services there. You got a nice stony facade, Riverside, but there is a lot of stench behind it. If you don't see that there is a pattern there, ...
2
The church has problems when someone like Dr Lowe can claim victory because the person who reported him has been fired. One might think that he helped to organize her ouster.
40
The Church is indeed a place for refugee - it seems for the forsaken and for scoundrels like this creepy doctor. Some of the latter are also, unfortunately, the pastors in charge of the congregation as the bishops in the Catholic Church have demonstrated.
Why again are these institutions given preferred tax treatment? The State should not interfere with religious matters but criminal behavior in Church should lead to automatic suspension of tax advantages for a period of at least 10 years and only reinstated after careful scrutiny of remedies undertaken by the Church.
15
That is a great idea.
4
Clearly this NYT article takes the side of Dr. Butler.
However, if the male board member did do and say what he is described in the article as saying and doing, one must wonder why he is still on the board, especially now in the days of the #MeToo movement.
Also, if Dr. Butler felt she was sexually harassed and discriminated against, one must wonder whether she filed harassment/discrimination charges. Or perhaps that matter was addressed in a settlement.
This, of course, is a separate question from whether Dr. Butler herself did and said things during her tenure that led the board to consider her an unsuitable fit for the position, a topic only vaguely touched on in the article.
Finally, it is worth noting that Dr. Butler’s move from a tiny church with 300 members to the huge Riverside Church, with more than 2,000 members, 100 staff and a budget of more than $10 million per year, may have been more of a stretch than she and the board anticipated.
In any case, in the internet age if a dispute between an employer and an employee goes as far as posts on social media and blogs, the employer is likely to be the last one standing when the dust settles.
Given the largely one-sided picture painted by this article, perhaps it was better suited for the opinion section.
6
I really don’t need to know much more than the details of the “gift” left by (Dr!) Lowe.
Doesn’t that speak volumes?
Why continue to make excuses for such childish and yet quite painful and UNACCEPTABLE behavior?
55
@Catherine Cardiello I quite agree. If Dr. Lowe did and said what the article said he did and said, I can’t understand why he would still be on the board.
34
She was harassed by the church's old white male patriarchy that wants to keep its dead-grip on power.
They know change is coming and are running scared. Women cannot and will not be blocked or harassed any longer from positions of leadership in God's Houses.
20
You'd think that getting along in a house of The Lord is easier than outside of the house. Not so. We bring our egos inside.
Brings to mind an old joke: Where you find two Jews, you'll find three synagogues.
9
Essentially the Times is suggesting, once hired, the Church apparently has to renew the contract in perpetuity. There’s a reason the contract had a term of one year and not 10 or 20. The Church obviously wanted to see if this pastor was the right person to lead and decided, as is their right, that someone else would be better suited. It’s their choice; the NYT or the government doesn’t get to choose who fills the position thanks to the ministerial exception to employment/discrimination laws.
10
@Jack -- "thanks to the ministerial exception to employment/discrimination laws." Yes, that exception allowed a controlling male to repeatedly sexually harass a female pastor and staff, and enabled the church to weasel out of a what would have been a charge of retaliation in the real world.
57
I'm not surprised. No matter how progressive they are, Christian churches are still based on a 2,000-year-old system of patriarchy, with roots even older than that. Most Christians idea of a god is a male one.
291
@Jude Not entirely true. Most of the "priests" or leaders of services in first century Christianity were women. Services were typically conducted in private homes to avoid detection and persecution. Much of Christianity's patriarchy comes from the Dark Ages when popes and bishops were kings and princes, fighting wars, amassing wealth, and conducting inquisitions.
115
@rich
In the Gnostic gospels, Peter sets himself against Mary Magdalene. He's even called down by another disciple. The church's first misogynist.
42
@Jude I think most major religions (though certainly not all) are based on patriarchy, not matriarchy.
Note how long it took for female rabbis to be ordained in Progressive Judaism, and even now they are not accepted in Orthodox Judaism.
11
This piece calls for a follow-up on how the governing board is appointed & maintains power.
15
@Sharon
They are elected by church members. The candidate chooses to run for office, makes a statement that is published and members vote. Maintaining the office is another thing. If someone does something reprehensible, I don't know that there is a mechanism to remove them from office. Maybe there is, but I don't know about it. Obviously, this didn't happen in this obviously egregious case.
5
@Sharon
And maybe some further insight into Mr. Sweet Bitch himself.
So funny. So endearing. Such a sweet old grandpa.
8
“It was back and forth, back and forth with this young lady,” said Dr. Lowe. For evidence of his condescending and belittling attitude towards Dr. Butler, it's hardly necessary to look any further.
87
If you were born, raised and educated on a purely secular island and then brought to mainland USA and introduced to Religion and Churches, you wouldn't know what to make of it.
20
Conflict within faith communities is a story as old as the prophets of ancient Israel; sharing life together is always difficult and conflict pretty much guaranteed. But that's true of other areas of life besides church life, as readers of the NYT have probably noticed.
Mercifully, communities often learn much needed lessons and grow as a result. But there are no guarantees, especially for communities rather confident in their own virtue.
3
Interesting - this is what Dr. Lowe had to say when Dr. Butler was hired. As is so often the case when Dr. Butler didn't meet Dr. Lowe's "needs" he quickly turned on her.
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/riverside-church-elects-female-senior-minister-article-1.1826387
Edward Lowe, who has been worshiping at the church for 60 years, described Butler as "very personable, but she has an edge."
And that's what helped her get 96% of the vote, Lowe said, noting that about 500 members of the 1,600-member congregation voted on Sunday.
"I like her. I think she'll be good for this place," Lowe said, standing outside the church entrance on Claremont Ave. "I think everyone is really excited about her. I can't wait for her to get here and come on board."
13
This is why I despise organized religion. It takes Jesus' teaching as only applying to rich white men. But then in the New Testament, and Bible as a whole, there is plenty of support for the subjugation and marginalizing women. Conservative Christian churches are the worst offenders.
25
@Jeff this isn't a conservative Christian church by any means. https://www.trcnyc.org/affiliations/
3
The guy was totally out-of-line. The Pastor should sue.
21
The more one hears about Christianity and its hypocrisy and toxicity the more one wants wishes the ancient gods had won out. Say what you will about Bacchus and Mithras, but I'd much rather pray to them and rub elbows with their adherents than J and his hypocritical followers. Perhaps now is the best time to agree that Bob Marley said it best when he said "the only god is a living man."
17
@Butch
I am more partial to Marley's:
"Because I feel like bombing a church
Now, now that you know that the preacher is lying.."
4
So sad that this sexist man now feels vindicated and his behavior is fine. Change comes too slow sometimes
35
As pathetic as this is, it's hardly surprising. As long as old white men of privilege still breath, it will continue to occur. Sooner or later, these dinosaurs will disappear forever. It can't happen soon enough.
33
@markymark
As something of a fossil myself, I still agree that gender discrimination should end. But perhaps we should also be a bit circumspect in self-assured condemnations. It is likely that, one day, we shall all be dinosaurs in the eyes of a younger generation. And we will be as blind to this as Dr. Lowe is to the apparent implications of his comments and actions.
We can hope that people having meaningful conversations about such issues with us dinosaurs will lead us all in better directions.
Pax.
1
@Markymark
Am wondering why you think that Ed Lowe is white? Sounds kind of racist to me.
4
The New Testament describes the church as the bride of Christ. Once again, as with LGBTQ2 Christians, the bride eats her own children.
2
Jesus could have said: "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them... and there will be turmoil.”
3
Good luck trying to be a good Christian, but, I fear it is a fundamentally idolatrous religion. You can try to make it modern but it is what it is. Bible morals have a hard time standing the test of modern ethics, or so it seems.
Christianity has gone to the Republicans. It is fundamentally fascistic in the manner it has been practiced. If the majority of Christians are fascists (whether they know it or not) then what are you saying when you call yourself a Christian?
Christianity for what I have experienced is a good religion (maybe) for children. An adult must put away childish things and strive harder for truth and mindfulness.
See where I'm going? Would you follow the Christ? The follow the Buddha path.
Moreover, change has just begun. It is accelerating. Everything will change. Who are you, then?
2
I wonder if it's all possible for a woman to get fired without certain elements, led by the NYT, presuming it's related to sexual harassment? Is there never another side to the story?
9
@Kent Kraus
So in your book, the "gifts" that Dr. Butler left for Dr. Lowe do not constitute harrassment? Examine your own soul, my friend. No one deserves to be treated disrespectfully, and certainly NEVER the pastor of your church.
18
Dr. Lowe said: “A bully can only ride your back if you bend over, and I stood tall and erect,” he said, referring to Dr. Butler. “That irritated her more than anything else.” Tall and erect....indeed.
24
@J. Longhi I think there is something truly wrong with the guy that goes way beyond a love of goading and baiting. Thank you for calling this out.
19
I know-- I laughed out loud at that quote. He doth protest too much.
11
Dr. Lowe sounds like a real creep.
Bad decision on Riverside's part.
38
What denomination is Riverside Church?
@Oh Please
It's affiliated with both the United Church of Christ and the American Baptist Church.
2
@Oh Please They are affiliated with the American Baptists (not to be confused with the ultra-conservative Southern Baptists) and the United Church of Christ (the denomination the Obamas are a part of), so more liberal. As we can see here, though, even an open, affirming congregation has its dinosaurs. I would love to know why Dr. Lowe has so much pull in this church.
7
@Oh Please: both United Church of Christ AND American Baptist Convention. One has a congregation-up hierarchy, the other, top down. And that conflict is where problems begin.
2
What's up with male pastors and their "way" with women. Entitlement? or does the church simply encourage pervs? And it's not just churches. Count in Muslim clerics and other religions. Which is why I do not partake in any organized religions. It breeds this kind of behavior -- patriarchy, blind followers, true believers. One has to have a certain mindset to be a true believer. I'm sorry this has also stripped these women of their antennae to spot a "charmer." Because I can smell these guys a mile off, and I run like a bunny.
8
This "Dr. Lowe" knew exactly what he was doing and the establishment in the church backed him. Its a sad day for organized religion. If I were a member of this church, I would leave it. God's love in this church may be taught at the pulpit, but it is sorely missing in the pews.
42
While this article paints a somewhat bleak picture of the goings on at Riverside and the beleaguered senior minister, one must always keep in mind that there are two sides to every story and "a snapshot does not the movie make". Perhaps acts of duplicity and mendacity on her part precipitated the severing of affiliations, rather than gender as the story claims. Yes, Riverside is an old established congregation but it welcomes new blood, however, the new, younger blood must be prepared to accept the responsibility of congregational membership that is befitting the reputation upon which Riverside sits. As with the founders, the Rockefellers, the progeny of John D., while understanding their forebear's limitations, nonetheless, used what he bequeathed to them to build on- in both philanthropic as well as corporate arenas to the benefit of all. In doing so, they did not throw away everything he had accomplished but acknowledged what good he had done and built on that.
6
I feel enormous empathy for Rev Dr Butler.
Change is necessary for every community of faith. Not just because of inherent biases of human intransigence based on gender, or race, or wealth, and so forth. The call of the discipleship itself is always and everywhere a call to radical change. That is what repentance means: forever leaving the old behind, forever embracing the new. Not the “novel”, but the new world of God.
John Henry Newman said it best: “to live is to change; to be perfect is to have changed often.”
If you push too hard too fast you certainly provoke a reaction. That exposes the problem, which is good, but it may also cause losing your position, which is a lost opportunity.
If you fail to push hard enough, what is the point of being a minister of the gospel?
Usually sustained, gentle but firm, and above all unrelenting pressure over time is a valuable approach. But every situation is different.
Some situations are inherently too stubborn; the best you can do is walk away with your chin up, forget what lies behind, learn what lessons you can, look forward to lies ahead, and never look back.
I hope the best both for this great historic church—where Harry Emerson Fosdick and William Sloane Coffin once ministered—and for Rev Dr Butler.
11
@Paul McGlasson Yes. "Shall the Fundamentalists Win?" That's the sermon that caused this church to be built.
Progressive church is an oxymoron. One should never be surprised what might come from those who believe in magic things. And, should also never be surprise that the leadership of cults are more interested in power and the ability to manipulate the flock than any of their publicly stated goals. This also explains why in this land where the people elect the government, but the majority of the people believe in mystical nonsense, they can also be duped by rather obviously disingenuous political actors.
8
How can people be so heartless
How can people be so cruel
Easy to be hard
Easy to be cold
How can people have no feelings
How can they ignore their friends
Easy to be proud
Easy to say no
Especially people who care about strangers
Who care about evil and social injustice
2
"She Led a Famed Progressive Church. Then She Said She Was Harassed."
The message Jesus left for us were two simple Commands:
in Matthew 22:35–40, Mark 12:28–34, and Luke 10:27,
** " love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind""
** "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
But there are many people in both Protestant, Catholic and Evangelical churches who can not see or who will not abide by those two simple commands. And yet they call themselves "Christians". The tactics used against this pastor as described in this report are as un-christian as they can get.
14
@RetiredGuy
Those are Hebrew/Jewish/Old Testament sayings - and the first is most commonly translated "...and with all thy might".
2
“Traditionalist” is just a euphism for conservativism. I once attended a progressive church where a handful of politically conservative members of the congregation set out to attack the new pastor who happened to be a gay man. That pastor used the church’s bylaws and is still the pastor while the ringleader was disinvited from the congregation. No one was sorry to see the guy go as his behavior was in conflict with everything the church stood for. So sad to see no one standing up for the female pastor, just handwringing after she is gone and the sexual harrasser proclaiming his personal righteousness. In my observation, those who publicly beat their breasts in this manner have much sin to hide.
16
Just to be clear, traditionalism is not really the same as conservatism in American religion.
Conservatism means evangelical conservatism, usually white evangelical conservatism. Riverside is most definitely NOT, nor has it EVER been, a conservative evangelical church, in ANY SENSE whatsoever.
The “traditionalism” comes in the form of doctrine, style of worship, music, etc., which are mainstream ecumenical Protestant. These are successfully blended—seamlessly so—with a highly engaged ministry of justice and peace.
Riverside in this sense is not unlike numerous mainstream churches around the country, both mainstream traditional and forward-looking progressive at the same time. The two dimensions are not in tension, but flow from one another.
This has NOTHING TO DO with conservative evangelicalism, an entirely different stream of American Christianity, with very deep problems of its own, in my opinion.
9
According to the Riverside Church website, Dr. Lowe is a member of the 2018-19 Lay Leadership. Are you telling me that the church considers this person suited to that post? If so, you have the church's leadership in a nutshell, and Dr. Butler is lucky to be leaving her post. What a shame that ostensibly well-meaning people can't see and fairly deal with injustice within their own church. https://www.trcnyc.org/layleadership/
42
@Christina Graybard Without knowing the particulars in this case I would suggest that being appointed to "lay leadership" is likely a function of relationships or giving or both. It likely has little or nothing to do with anything spiritual/theological. This is unfair, but shouldn't be surprising. It's difficult for churches to turn away well-heeled donors, and too often it seems committees/boards rely on people nominating their friends.
2
@Christina Graybard
That is last year's Church Council. For whatever reason, the church has not updated the website to reflect the 2019-2020 group, which was elected in May, 2019.
1
Obviously, a few people in this church didn't get the message.
6
There are many churches that would love to have progressive leaning members. They should vote with their feet and money and leave this church. Many old line Protestant churches are only “arm chair “ progressive, but turn militantly NIMBY when a younger, more progressive, forward thinking pastor is hired and makes changes to “my church.” Suddenly, the support the new pastor received at the time of hiring dissipates in the face of “behind closed door” conversations with long term members who give the money. Then, the new pastor is out and the “armchair” cheap progressivism continues. When the old guard dies, so will the church.
13
@Peter: Have you ever attended the Riverside Church? Living in Colorado, I suspect not. Making a judgment about an entire congregation based on a newspaper report is a slippery slope. Dr. Butler was hired partly on the impression from her DC experience that she could fill pews. The more gimmicks that were tried, the more traditional aspects of worship were watered down or eliminated, the fewer congregants there were on Sunday mornings. Dr. Butler's progressive bona fides were never an issue; Riverside has been a stalwart of social justice since its inception. It was style, rather than substance, that became an issue. There are many, MANY New Yorkers who prefer a traditional liturgy and music, yet embrace and practice progressive ideals. The two are not mutually exclusive. These folks deserve to have a church home just like everybody.
8
@SteveZodiac Of course the folks you mention deserve a church, but as someone who has seen what Peter speaks of, he's not wrong. He's speaking in general. Just because people attend a progressive church doesn't mean that they share the stated ideals, and they can be very vocal and aggressive when those ideals show themselves in a way that affects them.
It doesn't seem like a heavenly banquet is being served at this church. Sounds like sharks have invaded the congregation. This is a good example of why young people are deserting religion in droves. They are looking for spiritual inspiration in ways other than joining an entrenched organization like this church. If you can't treat each other well and avoid bullying in a church then where?
28
Amazing how many self-described church experts there seem to be, including people who haven't darkened a house of worship in years. As a veteran minister I can assure you church fights are notoriously murky and the causes and incidents are never fully discernible to outsiders. They are often not discernible to insiders. They are never amenable to outsiders with preconceived agendas to impose. They cannot be encompassed in newspaper articles and people should be wiser than to trumpet half-baked conclusions. Of course, we are not wiser at all.
19
@David
I've been a board member at one church and have an MA from Hartford Seminary. Believe me, leaving a "gift" of alcohol and a t-shirt with a nasty slogan on it would not be tolerated in ANY congregation I have ever been associated with. Calling this "murky" is absurd.
100
Congregations have a tendency to think 'love your neighbor' is great for other people. If the cleric is trying to do something that 'we haven't always done this way,' love goes out the window, and ego becomes legion. Shouldn't be a surprise, Jesus got killed for upsetting the applecart. We still do it.
19
If the congregation does not fire the governing board, then it deserves what it gets. These congregations allow toxic leadership to remain in power. Millennials see the hypocrisy, which is why church attendance is plummeting.
76
Church is just like Jr. High and High School. That's why I sleep in on Sunday, spend my money on loved ones, and donate where and how I see fit, usually to animal welfare causes. How grown adults have time for this nonsense is beyond me. Everyone who is honest with themselves knows most people who call themselves a Christian and need some religious "authority" to tell them what to do, what to think, and how to be a good person are anything but Christian and beyond hope of ever growing up. Nothing about this story surprised me in the least except that a female would waste her time and talents in such a setting because males at Church are ten times worse that those found in the secular workplace. Think about it, the Bible tells males that they are entitled. Why wonder then why they act like such creeps at Church?
47
@Andrea Hawley
Well said. I truly admire your candor and the donations to animal causes - which the Bible (wrongly) says were put upon earth solely for Man's benefit!!
Fare well and may the wind be upon your back
6
Fundamentalists like Dr. Lowe fear women and are and most certainly not gentlemen in any sense of the word. They are cowards and bullies that hide behind their scripture. There is no future with these ogres. Hopefully there will be an exodus of young people from the church who will find a place that honors the teachings of their church with actual action.
49
I know nothing more about this case that what's in this story, but it sounds to me as though 70-year-old doctor who was on the governing council should be the one booted from the church. The interview comments made after he'd gone through "counseling" that were quoted in the story were clearly those of a bully and a misogynist. I'm his age and I've been on the receiving end of comments like these from men like him all my life. He's clearly never going to stop.
124
@Jane Scholz- agreed. Leaving a "gift" labeled with a widely used pejorative for a woman is not Christian in any way, shape, or form. I'm amazed he could still look her in the eye.
72
This article was inadvertently very revealing. Despite being a lengthy piece about a fairly large church community, it contains absolutely no references to the basics of Christianity. The article lacks any mention of the Bible, of the sacraments, even of the person of Jesus. At this point in its history Riverside might be wise to drop the word “church” and just more honestly call itself a community group centered around advocating progressive policy positions. That might also help it to govern itself more effectively.
7
@Rex Nemorensis I find your post quite unfair. This church is very Christ centered and Scriptural in its teachings - although it may be different than your theology. I invite you to watch a sermon or two on their website.
13
@Rex Nemorensis
The article wasn't about the basics of Christianity it was about harassment in a church.
28
@Rex Nemorensis
So "progressive" is the new word for "Christian" now?
During my childhood, I was very involved in my church, with a parent who was the organist/choir director. As a teenager, I learned that a church, just like any other organization, can be a place where certain adult members find that they can have power. The result is silencing or forcing out any congregants or church employees that have a different view than the power brokers.
I rarely attend church anymore, after seeing similar power behaviors, as well as snobbery and exclusion, at my local church.
24
1. Always blame the victim.
2. When in doubt, refer to item #1.
The facts on the ground, simply, are that women who speak out about these things must understand that they do so at their own peril. This is a sobering reminder of what happens when harassment is spoken about publicly. I don't see what any harassment victim stands to gain from this, and I don't see anything that offers a positive, effective way to redirect and correct the toxic behaviour of the harassers.
44
The pastor showed dignity and understanding in her written comments if you click on the links. Unfortunately much of the article is a countering statement from the creep involved, and not the thoughtful reckoning of the woman harassed.
3
I was a member of Riverside when I lived in New York (before Rev Dr. Butler’s time). I joined because of the congregation, because of the choir, and because of the church’s many service ministries. The one downside I saw was that I did not have a strong impression of the ministers, their leadership, or style. It seems this is how the church’s governing council likes to keep it. When their status quo was rocked by Rev. Dr. Butler, they kept her tenure short.
Riverside church deserves stronger leadership from the pulpit as well as the pews. If the church’s governing council cannot lead in a positive, collaborative way with a senior pastor, then they will continue to struggle to recruit and retain both pastors and members.
37
@MH At this point, I'm not sure if Riverside "deserves" it, but they surely will continue to suffer, stay ineffective, and squander their resources because of it.
7
I'm reminded of Serena Williams' own words, in reflection on her experiences at the U.S. Open last year: “I felt disrespected by the sport that I love... one that I had dedicated my life to and that my family truly changed, not because we were welcomed, but because we wouldn’t stop winning.” The article describes new growth and a growing number of young adult activist types – the face of the new progressive Christian front – growth that one would think is a a continuation of the reputation that Riverside has congratulated itself on and which many mainline churches crave. For whatever her shortcomings, Rev. Butler was "winning" in key ways and folks did not like it one bit.
22
Even though some congregants “see the protracted search for a leader as a distraction, burning through energy that should be directed toward the church’s mission’ they should see this as a learning opportunity.
Dr. Lowe may have gotten away with his behavior due to his financial support of the church and should not see this as any form of vindication.
Until the church addresses the root of their problems they will not “be God’s church and do God’s work.”
28
@Duke Taylor
I agree completely. A church doesn't exist without congregants. If the congregants are fine with misogyny and bad behaviour, then score one for misogyny. If they are not, they will do something about it or leave. Time will tell.
9
There are so many stories like this one in so many professions, and each new one is sickening to read. I understand Rev. Butler’s situation entirely. A friend of mine (now age 70) was fired from an academic position in the late 70s because she was considered ‘difficult,’ and a controversy arose in the 90s over an academic position to which she had been elected. The problem was actually that 1) she outpublished her male colleagues;2) she didn’t ‘play golf’ etc. with the guys; and 3) she spoke out when she saw corruption — all this although in fact she was academically a centrist, but perhaps too well qualified for less qualified men to be comfortable around her. — I doubt if this kind of treatment of professional women will stop in my lifetime.
At least Rev. Butler’s story will now get public attention, attention beyond the institution that has treated her so unfairly and dishonestly.
82
The Rev. Dr. Butler brought a remarkable, loving change to the spirit of Riverside Church. She will be called to another church and will thrive. I'm not so sure about Riverside. As a former Riverside employee, I can attest that is one contentious work environment and has been for many years. So many gifted employees have left angry, hurt and/or burned out. There are many, even from 20-30 years ago, who have sad stories to tell.
The Rev. Wright’s comment captures this well, “We strive to be a heavenly banquet where all are welcome,” he said. “But often that banquet erupts into a food fight.” And the church employees have to deal with these 'food fights', even daily. Amy is the first Senior Minister, to my knowledge, who chose to address this.
"Courage is knowing it might hurt and doing it anyway. Stupidity is knowing it might hurt, and doing it anyway."
There are factions at Riverside that may well argue from these two perspectives. But anyone can read the facts regarding, in this case, the sexism at Riverside, and realize she was confronting ingrained issues that, spiritually, she was required to address.
Amy Butler is one courageous leader and spirit-filled preacher. At least she tried to bring healing to Riverside, to lift it up, to have it behave through the word that it preaches. Maybe the devastation of her departure, felt by so many current congregants, can still help this church develop a deeper and broader wisdom.
96
@yankeefan
You say you are a former employee of the Riverside Church, have you been active in the church recently?
@yankeefan Her early years and treatment of beloved, long time diverse staff were hugely problematic. While I wish her well and I am extremely disturbed by the harassment she experienced, your view that she was a unifying presence is most definitely not universally shared by the congregation. Still angry over her treatment of the former youth and family minister, among others.
2
@James O.
Yes.
I am a minister's daughter...but my father is been deceased for many decades. One of the reasons that I believe caused the distress which led to his diagnosis of cancer was "church politics," and let me say that the people who practice this are the ones that control the purse by way of their membership on the standing committee. It was they who turned down his requests to open the church to working families, and they were the ones who hired him to increase the attendance. Yes, in every church you will find a caste system entrenched and on the ready. Their very nature is contradictory to a successful and welcoming religious center. And so you see, church itself has taken on a negative meaning to a great segment of our population.
103
"I'm tired of this side versus this side. Let's be God's church and do God's work." I understand the weariness and the resolution. However, divisions have persisted in the Church from earliest times. The Apostle Paul wrote that he spoke face-to-face with the Apostle Peter and won the argument. The issue was did a Gentile who became a Christian have to become a Jew first. For the men, this became highly personal, becoming a Jew first meant circumcision. Over the centuries, the Church grew and diversified, and those who sought a more unified witness tried many ways to express unity; e.g. Canonizing inherited texts into an authoritative book accepted by all congregants, Creeds, Papacy, common architecture and order of worship. Even these attempts could not prevent fracturing. Today, in the United States, the very name, Southern Baptist, bears testimony that the will to back the terrorists known as the Confederacy who wanted to defend the institution of slavery was stronger than the will to maintain church unity. Christians all over the world and at all times continually pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. At best, this plea acknowledges we are almost heaven, but not heaven. Luke records Jesus saying that the Kingdom of God is not over there, nor up there, nor determined by the clothes we wear or the food we eat, but rather, is in our midst in acts of peace, grace, love, and justice. Its being reformed and always reforming. The church lives in purgatory.
7
In my lifelong experience in churches, I have encountered many men who subtly belittled my points of view. Often other women around these men had already been silenced in the same way. And, I have also had the experience of men who actually listened and responded with respect. This occurs in every church, I believe, and is a problem going into the future, that must be addressed by the leadership. It was with good reason that St. Paul wrote to the churches, "beware of wolves in sheep's clothing."
35
@JM2000 St. Paul also wrote that women are supposed to keep quiet in church. At it's core, the Christian Church is patriarchal, based on the culture of Paul and Constantine, not the egalitarian behavior of Jesus. Asking the church not to be patriarchal is like asking glue not to be sticky, which is why I left the church.
37
Most scholars agree that St Paul did not write that but that it was inserted in the text at sometime later. Reading the Bible as if every word is a law by which we should live is ignorant and ultimately destroys the unity of the community.
Scholars agree that St Paul did write this: There is no longer Jew or Greek, slave or free, make or female for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
While we, like Paul, live in a patriarchal society but our call is to transcend that violent and destructive system. Congregational communities should be careful what ‘traditions’ they cling to lest they forsake the gospel good news for the business as usual.
3
This article seems to just scratch the surface -- there must be a lot more behind it. Mr Rojas certainly makes it interesting. I hope he eventually can get the whole story.
Bitter, back-biting internal politics seem to afflict every institution these days, no matter how small or homogeneous. Those who are able to sustain open and fair fights -- not ad hominem ad nauseum, or nepotism-based -- ought to be able to emerge healthier and more vigorous.
But so much of life is engaged in unfair, closeted conflicts. No one ever knows clearly what they were fighting for or about. That is just private-life psycho-drama, and leaves nothing for a congregation or membership to build around.
Wishing Riverside an open and fair resolution. Somewhere there may be a consensus that every sinner is an opportunity to ask for help.
7
@mitchell Many of the comments on here seem to buy this report in its entirety without thinking that there is another side to this. Having been involved in a church in transition, I can say that these kinds of things are never easy. The motives of the members, who I think are entitled to a presumption of acting properly, are being condemned without anything other than this one report.
6
@David Davidson I kinda think "Sweet Bitch" says it all.
5
Meanwhile the Episcopal church I grew up attending in Westchester had two successive female reverends, and no one seemed to care. They were damn good at their jobs. Any church that balks at a woman leading their congregation cannot be labeled as Progressive by current standards. This isn’t about Christianity or organized religion, but a handful of spiteful anti-progressive bigots that hold sway within their church.
73
Reverend is only written . I think you mean priests.
As a UCC member, I am sad to see this display of toxic masculinity in the church: “He called the wine and T-shirt, which had the “Sweet Bitch” logo, a “gesture on my part to be friendly.” If someone is offended by one’s action, the only correct response is a sincere apology, not a rationalization.
263
Riverside had the choice to be the church of Dr. Lowe or the church of Dr. Butler. Now all women there can be greeted with a friendly “sweet bitch!”
114
No wonder churches are losing membership. For a governing member of a church to give a woman a shirt with the word “b***h” on it, and not know that is morally offensive and indecent language demonstrate the sorry state of modern Christianity.
127
@Isle, He knew.
8
Most of the writers, mostly male, completely miss the point here. How is it possible that an influential Church board member can send a note to its female pastor referring to her as a “ sweet bitch”., and nothing be done.He should have been dismissed immediately. Of course the Church can refuse to renew a contract, and soon Riverside Church, will have as its congregants, people over the age of seventy and the younger church goers will find a more inclusive and less misogynistic board of directors.
151
@Martin Feinberg. Absolutely. Had a male clergy be referred to by the male equivalent term, there would have been war.
21
@Martin Feinberg one word MONEY! It's all most Churches really want. Look at the Vatican. Enough gold and riches to lift millions from poverty. Instead they ask them for donations
10
@Martin Feinberg except that something was done. There was an investigation, an apology, And repentance (the mentioned counseling). He also lost his seat on the council at the end of his term).
It’s notable that there are zero specifics or incidents cited with regard to Rev. Butler’s style and how it was problematic or disruptive although her leadership “style” is repeatedly referenced by her detractors as a reason for her dismissal. In my experience, complaints about leadership style, lacking specifics, are often code for “we didn’t like being led by a woman”. (And that is not a complaint made only by men.) When pressed for details, the detractors say they didn’t like some of the changes she made in staff. If the reasons for her dismissal are unspecific and lame, it’s reasonable to suspect sexism is at work. You don’t have to read much between the lines to find the former council member of the “Sweet Bitch” gift an arrogant, harassing, sexist ass. Most attentive women will recognize him as familiar if for no other reasons than his complete obliviousness to the obnoxiousness of his own behavior and his (self-) righteous denial that he was anything less than well-meaning.
206
@MountainGoat
Actually as a member of the congregation, I know first hand the turmoil reverend butler caused. It was interesting to read about her alleged advocacy for staff of color - the talented diverse and long time staffers she unceremoniously pushed out would certainly beg to differ. None of this excuses harassment and the timing of her dismissal is extremely troubling - and I hope to get some transparency this Sunday. But she was not the right choice and her style should have prompted a change a long time ago.
4
''When she sent Dr. Lowe a photograph taken as he was looking at a baby, he replied, “I still have a way with the young girls.”
What was an innocent remark and an attempt at humor in days gone by is no longer so.
When you tell an elder uncle with great trepidation you can't do that or say that anymore invariably the reply is "What?" "What do you mean?" "I didn't mean that to be understood that way." They are so hurt that they are being so misunderstood.
Most of these elder gentlemen don't have an evil bone in their body. Time has passed them and their vocabulary by.
11
@Lawrence
About 15 years ago, I had to explain to my then 80-something year old father why he shouldn't be calling young women he worked with "dear" - he understood immediately and never did it again - he also thanked me for making him aware of the inappropriateness of his vocabulary. I think it's patronizing and disingenuous to posit that elderly gentlemen are incapable of change or incapable of understanding change. It is incredible to me that the behavior of Dr. Ed Lowe as described in this article can be seen as anything other than patronizing, condescending, demeaning and belittling - are we to believe that he hasn't read a newspaper or watched television in the past few years? I am quite sure that he is aware of the import of his words/behavior, and that they are purposive. He clearly intends to put women in their place. Making excuses for him just isn't on.
265
@Lawrence
I'm sorry, but a bitch T shirt is not benign. I am a senior citizen and blaming that action on age is ridiculous.
273
Would you sweet great uncle refer to someone as a ‘sweet bitch’, too?
79
Kissinger once said, “College campus politics we’re particularly vicious because the stakes are so low.” This may apply here.
13
@John D. (JD) Miller
A (by all accounts) talented woman’s career seriously set back, perhaps derailed; a toxically misogynistic workplace culture allowed to continue, potentially damaging more lives and careers (the article makes clear that Dr. Butler is not the first departure) — and you describe those stakes as “low.”
I wonder if you would make the same calculation if your name was Joan instead of John?
11
This is so sad, but comes as no shock to me. I made the mistake of reporting sexual harassment I experienced at the Mormon church last year. I naively thought that in the Me Too era, my male church leaders would help me. They didn’t. They told me I should “take it as a compliment”, that it was “just a joke”, and that they “were really great men”. For years I had struggled with the patriarchal oppression in the church I had been raised to love, and this was my breaking point. I am no longer religious.
170
@Anne Wright So sorry about your experience! Glad you had the courage to see past your leaders "words of wisdom" and the patriarchal oppression!
11
@Anne Wright
Welcome! It sounds like you’ve seen the light/photons.
You have joined a great community of free thinking people, who have empathy and compassion for others despite foregoing membership in a medieval, patriarchal, power-based organization spouting rules at today’s people which were designed to control and mollify the overwhelmingly ignorant mass of people over the course of two to five thousand or so years ago.
Welcome. You are not alone.
12
Every organization ends up becoming a platform for bullies to exert power to harass others. Churches are no exception. Better to stay at home if you are a believer and say your prayers in private.
25
The story is light upon details of the controversy, and focused upon the unexplained fact of controversy. And stress placed upon mishandling of gender issues, without putting light upon the importance of that compared to other matters.
Poor reporting!
7
The theater of the absurd is still functioning like a well oil machine.
3
It's always a treat when the words an alleged harasser speaks in his own defense prove that he is, indeed, a creep.
189
@Elizabeth
I had that exact reaction. Dr. Lowe’s own words speak volumes about who he is...a dyed-in-the-wool misogynist. Thank you Elizabeth, you nailed it.
36
I was reading all this in-fighting and was thinking: Where is Jesus/god in all this? Religious institutes have become so large and so devoid of emotions or faith that one's best bet is to just read the bible and stay at home and contemplate a certain reading. You can be good without being part of a body which is more like a hostile work environment than anything else. Give your money to the poor directly or thru institutes which have good standing on giving to the poor and needy. Very easy to find on the internet now-a-days. It is time to go to basics on religion. I am quite certain that Peter will not be asking for any church affiliations at the pearly gates (if you believe in such stuff). Just be good and "love thy neighbor as thyself!" Que sera sera.
10
In almost any church to which I've belonged (six in all due to moving to different communities), there has always been a small coterie who are really the ones making things happen. These can be either constructive or damaging; I've seen both. Our last church, a UMC in northern Michigan, had such unkind people in the top leadership that once we left in 2005, we knew we were finished forever.
Another issue - there are everywhere a certain kind of male who thinks his innuendo passes for clever wittiness. Women are sick of it and I applaud Rev. Dr. Butler for not putting up with it. Shame on the other church leadership for not supporting her.
137
And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, "What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Matthew 26:40-41
1
Churches these days seem to attract only predators and prigs. I'm so glad I'm done with organized religion. The details in this case feel so familiar. Similar situations are probably going on in churches everywhere...
13
It's not surprising that a progressive minister, who excites a congregation to positive action and change, will rattle a few older "church leaders" who have for years driven their personal stakes deep into the foundation. Ministers rarely survive the turmoil these curmedgeons -- young or old -- know how to politicize.
Progressive programs can be genuine and positive -- and can mask the corrosive spirit of a couple of mean-minded control freaks who believe it is "their" church to manipulate as needed. At Riverside, it was the wrong person who was tossed out.
27
So they just fired their first female pastor after the previous African-American pastor, Dr. Braxton, resigned after less than a year. Maybe they should just dig up William Sloane Coffin and prop his dead body up in the pulpit while playing Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech on continuous loop. Apparently, Riverside's brand of Christianity is for EWLMAA's only. (Elderly White Liberal Males And Allies)
54
@Walter Bruckner
You are forgetting James A. Forbes, the prominent African-American minister, who was their senior pastor from 1989-2007.
Riverside (which I have attended a few times, but have never been a member of) also has an extremely diverse congregation.
So, check your facts first please.
14
@Steve ahh but read some stories about Dr. Forbes ministry and what he was accused of and how he was sued by some members. His ministry, while lengthy, was not without major conflict.
6
@Walter Bruckner - LOL. Wonderful!
1
Dr. Lowe, Trump, Kavanaugh, Epstein. To think this was acceptable for so long that these fellows think we're crazy (or unamerican) for wanting to change it. They'll fight us with every dollar they can muster to keep their white male privilege. The only one who should be "going" from that church is Dr. Lowe. Despicable.
42
One need not be a psychoanalyst to wonder about Dr. Lowe’s choice of words: “I stood tall and erect”.
98
@Janice
I also noted that. Unbelievable. Unfortunately, I think her not suing the church board may be a mistake as far as holding them accountable. But doing so could also adversely affect her prospects for finding the next opportunity.
18
@Janice @Janice -- LOL. Something about having a bully 'ride on your back,' too. This guy sounds thoroughly revolting.
21
@Janice That is what I thought. And add to this his reference to refusing to "bend over". The guy seems filled to the brim with notions linking sexuality and domination. Yuk.
13
I am now 76 years old, but I still have strong memories of the rural church I attended as a child. The dissension among the congregation was incredible. There was more hate in that church on Sundays than one could think possible. And the center of the hate was usually the ministers. Pity the poor men (there were not women ministers in those days).
I have not attended church for more than forty years, and I don't miss it at all. Hypocrisy thrives among "religious" groups.
71
Sadly, nothing in this article surprises me. Women that stand up for themselves frequently do not get a good result be it at church or corporate America.
48
So once again, the man who committed harassment is allowed to stay in power, and the woman who was harassed has to leave.
340
With this sexist, misogynistic, patriarchal move, Riverside has forfeited its designation as a progressive Christian voice for social justice and human rights. SHAME on those who perpetrated this wrong against Amy Butler.
87
One can only hope that the majority of the congregation leaves as well.
20
Just another example of a revered institution that can't seem to keep its house in order. Of course, its importance as an institution would be more relevant if God actually existed.
20
Honestly, I don't know how anyone can be involved in religion anymore. Not, "organized" religion, at any rate. My friends just pray at home, or if they want communion with others, pray with a few friends. But, church? No.
49
I noticed the "Ms. Butler" too. Perhaps sexism is more pervasive in New York City than one might think?
21
@Lisa
You may have a point. She is Dr. Butler.
2
@Lisa Pretty sure that's NYT standard usage
A couple of points:
- The article refers to problems with Ms. Butler's "style". But not one example of her "style" is provided. If there's a personality clash at the heart of this conflict, the NYTimes has not given us the evidence.
- If, as is written, that the previous pastor left Riverside after 1 year, and now Ms. Butler is gone after just two, it's pretty clear that there's a problem at Riverside that's bigger than a"style" squabble.
At the heart of all organized religion is the quest for power. Remember this when assessing personnel issues at a church.
145
@RR, This may be a nit, but per the article she came to Riverside in 2014,, so that is about five years, not two.
1
@RR
When critics complain in general term and about the “style” of a female leader without volunteering specifics, the style issue is really that she is a woman in charge. This pattern is so pervasive and well-documented that the lack of detail from Dr. Butler’s critics in the article speaks for itself.
22
@RR just to be clear Rev Butler was there 5 years not just two as you state in your reply.
1
It's oibvious that Butler was let go because she told the truth about the sexist insults be an 'important' member of the church. If it were not that, but something else, she would have been asked to remain for another year. The way this was done will alienate many of the churches congregants, especially women.
34
"Let's be God's Church and do God's work."
The problem is that many or even most Christians, men and women, think of God as solely male and thus we have a 2000-year-old patriarchy. At the root of patriarchy and paternalism, is the idea that women are inferior to men.
28
When i read what Dr Ed Lowe is quoted as saying it sounds pretty creepy ( e.g., “ I stood tall and erect). Together with the other admitted conduct, hard to believe the church ‘s explanation for the termination.
109
@James Osborne -- Yes, and now he's stating that he feels vindicated. Talk about a church sending a wrong message!
13
It’s worthwhile to include the denomination in reporting such as this - not just Protestant but Methodist? Episcopal? Unitarian?? There are lots of Protestant denominations.
9
@Mary Laing
Baptist. It is one of the premier Baptist institutions in the country; the historic home congregation to many of that denomination’s clerical and lay luminaries.
1
@Mary Laing, from the church's website: "The Riverside Church is an interdenominational, interracial, international, open, welcoming, and affirming church and congregation."
1
According to Wikipedia, Riverside Church is interdenominational but also has specific associations with the American Baptist Church USA and the United Church of Christ. And according to an earlier NYT article, Dr Butler had previously served a Baptist congregation.
2
Churches are built on wealth amassed through the ages, especially from the “New World” free land grab, slavery profits, and fossil fuel riches. These buildings, these denominations, otherwise would not exist.
What’s called “christianity” today with few exceptions worships buildings, and the wealthy patriarchy that supports structures instead of human beings. It refuses to accept any change, whether it’s in the form of a woman minister, or a progressive man. This is why churches are dying, and rightfully so.
27
American Christianity is not a useful platform for progressive values. Too many Christians here have been taught a Christianity completely stripped of the radical egalitarian message of Jesus. Churches are largely governed by unaccountable old men who don't have any sincere beliefs, and use their position to abuse women under their authority.
If you want to accomplish change and stand with the disenfranchised, leave the church. It's a hindrance to your efforts.
26
I'm not going to comment on this lady's situation because I don't know the facts and I'm not a member of the Congregation. But I can say this to an absolute certainty: conflicts over abortion, gay rights and women clergy are tearing mainline Protestant Churches apart, all over this country. I've seen it happen even in small-town Kansas. The conflict itself drives silent people out, and they either go to some other Church, or quit going altogether. My view for whatever it's worth is that American religious people of all kinds have confused the enormous strength in our freedom to worship with the enormous weakness involved in an effort to imagine ourselves free to re-create the world--and by implication our doctrine of God--in any old fashion we wish. This spreads clear across our culture and saturates our politics, too. Evangelicals imagine themselves free to believe in a savage, individualistic capitalism while liberal Christians imagine themselves free to replace Christ with feminism and psychotherapy. In the last analysis, this involves a massive effort to adapt Christianity, at least, to the culture around it rather than to recapture whatever is left of the culture of obedience without which forbearance and mutuality are mired in confusion, chaos and anarchy. All the great Reformation theologians would join their Catholic counterparts in utter horror at this departure in Christian history.
18
@David A. Lee
Interestingly, you seem to be unaware that your own views (obedience to traditional norms) are not neutral but as deeply political as the views you disparage.
12
@David A. Lee just an FYI - "this lady" is Rev. Amy Butler.
2
Jesus was a feminist.
7
The most telling element of this sad tale is the harresser’s statement that wine and a shirt with an insulting label, gifted to a pastor, was a conciliatory gesture! Lord help us all.
I was privileged to be a congregant of pastor amy’s a while back. She is a gifted minister and compassionAte friend. Grace and peace to her.
138
@CinnamonGirl - Thank you for this personal testimony.
10
Thank you for this story, NYT. With detail and subtlety it shows how it is that sexism plays out. Sexism isn't called sexism, of course. Men say they were only being "friendly," and organizations say "it wasn't the right fit." And in most situations it's all but impossible, and costly, to prove otherwise.
55
This pattern of “veteran” members squashing young and dynamic leaders is rampant in mainline Protestant congregations. It is a major reason why traditional Protestant churches have experienced severe decline in recent decades. Clergy abuse is an significant problem that rarely gets dealt with in a constructive manner. I’m sad to hear that Rev. Butler was pushed out of her ministry, which is clearly what happened if you are aware of the inner dynamics and dysfunction of congregations. No pastor is perfect but that doesn’t give churches the right to treat them like garbage. Prayers for healing for Butler in her departure.
69
@Billy
Old Guard v. The New is hardly a religious phenomenon. The same dynamic plays out in politics (Bidens and Pelosi v. AOCs and Buttigiegs, culture (music, art) etc.
The entrenched rarely go gracefully or willingly and never take it well when challenged. It's the way of the world.
14
@Billy
Her bio says she graduated from college in 1991, which would make her around 50 years old.
She also earned over $250,000/yr plus a generous housing allowance. I'm sure she will be just fine, even if it will be hard to replace that huge salary preaching the gospel elsewhere.
3
@Chris
In traditional Protestant congregations anyone under the age of 50 is considered on the youthful side. This is the reality of these churches where the majority of members are in their 70s and 80s.
Also, I think you would reconsider your negative comment about her salary if you saw the workload a pastor takes on in a church like Riverside.
12
Not renewing her contract is not "getting fired" -- they upheld their end of the contract, and opted to not enter another one with her. End of story.
7
@Patrick M - Not renewing a contract is often (usually) a euphemism for getting fired. A resignation is another one - a euphemism for getting fired and intended to save face.
54
@Patrick M -- Obviously not the end of this story at all. You do draw a distinction but that is actually only a minor part of what's going on here.
3
@Patrick M...
Yeah, end of story? I think not.
1
People have deep convictions about their ideas of a faith community! As with politics, there will be unbearable posturing among factions of all social institutions which will make tenures short and tempers flare. It will take some over-riding social catastrophes to shock people into concerted group actions. It's that or watch systems one-by-one self destruct.
2
Essentially the Times is suggesting, once hired, the Church apparently has to renew the contract in perpetuity. There’s a reason the contract had a term of one year and not 10 or 20.
The Church obviously wanted to see if this pastor was the right person to lead and decided, as is their right, that someone else would be better suited. It’s their choice; the NYT or the government doesn’t get to choose who fills the position thanks to the ministerial exception to employment discrimination laws
12
@Jack - The Times suggested nothing of the sort. The reason for the one year contract was certainly probation, a try-out. Not renewing means the try-out didn't pan out - in other words, getting fired.
23
@JackIt is incredible that the left makes everything about discrimination. As a senior manager, I or anyone with "experience " in managing people can/should decide if the person "fits" the job.
The part that gives me joy(MD Deplorable whose daughter went to Kindergarten at Rivertside church) is all these progressives who are getting their come-uppance.
3
@Jack, The previous pastor served one year. Dr. Butler served for five. It is certainly the church's right to decide whether to offer another contract, but at five years they should have been well past the try-before-you-buy stage. Progressive churches often discover, when tested, that they are not as progressive as they thought they were, and that discovery often comes at the expense of a woman pastor.
The church will survive, and so will Dr. Butler and her ministry. But oh, what might have been.
45
She had a job with a contract that had an expiration date. Her employers decided to go in a different direction. It happens in jobs all the time. On her end, she had customers. A significant amount of them weren't buying what she was selling. It happens all the time. Not much more to it than that.
11
@Tom There's in fact quite a bit more to it than what you're saying Tom. First, that the church chose to take the concerns of long term congregants over an above the concerns of the newer members is troubling and shows a lack of vision for that church. Second that the church essentially stood by and let Mr. Lowe act in the sexist, disrespectful and blatantly disgusting manner toward Dr. Butler and other women of her staff also demonstrates that this church body chooses to be on the wrong side of history. CHurch members are not customers, they are people seeking and choosing a house of worship and leadership in that religious body for spiritual guidance, healing and caring..this church seems indifferent to those needs. Why did the church go in a different direction after investing in this woman? Perhaps because it was more difficult to part with the stifling, discriminatory, sexist, outdated values that they shamefully hold near and dear to their hearts. Bob Dylan said it so perfectly "Come mothers and fathers throughout the land, and don't criticize what you can't understand, your sons and your daughters are beyond your command your old road is rapidly agin' plesae get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand for THE TIMES THEY ARE A CHANGIN'!!
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@Tom, yes, she had a job with a contract. She also had a calling that the church, five years ago, committed itself to share, as she committed herself to share theirs.
A pastor does not just have something to "sell" to consumers. A pastor walks alongside the congregation and its members through joy, through sorrow, through fire. That is not a commodity for sale. That is a covenant that deserves to be honored as deeply and faithfully as possible, regardless of the "expiration date" on the legal agreement.
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@Ericka Excellent comment, Erika!
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Why is there no photo included of Dr. Ed Lowe?
Besides older v. younger, traditional v. progressive, male v. female, are there any other dichotomies at play that might be considered complicating factors?
If Ed Lowe has a history of inappropriate behavior with multiple women in the church, why is he still a member of the governing council? The council is accountable to the larger congregation, and has an obligation to provide full, detailed, accurate, and satisfactory responses to the congregation's legitimate inquiries.
Start talkin'.
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@Vira
"If Ed Lowe has a history of inappropriate behavior with multiple women in the church, why is he still a member of the governing council? The council is accountable to the larger congregation, and has an obligation to provide full, detailed, accurate, and satisfactory responses to the congregation's legitimate inquiries. "
Amen!
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@Vira, the article stated that he was a "former member" of the governing council. Nonetheless, it's interesting that he was quoted so specifically, and thus given enough interview rope to hang himself semantically. He calls Riverside "my church" rather than "our church" and states that he "stand[s]...erect." His behavior is repugnant, sexist, and -- ultimately -- destructive for the church.
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@Stuffster
I just checked the Riverside website, he was elected to the Budget and Planning Committee for 2019 - doesn't sound like a "former member" to me.
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There is a difference between being dismissed and not having one's contract renewed.
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@Liberty hound - If so, what is that difference?
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@Liberty hound, Not having one's contract renewed is a form of being dismissed. It does not carry the same implications of wrongdoing (on one side or the other), but it is still a form of being dismissed.
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@Liberty hound - If so, why was that difference not noted?
So, how is it that a church with Congregational roots (nominally independent, first of all, and even the two larger organizations with which it has ties, Baptists and UCCs, are also deeply Congregational in organization) has it in its bylaws that a "governing council" makes decisions about pastor position instead of a vote by the congregation? That's bizarre. Easy fix to this problem, no matter who is right: change the bylaws immediately.
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It's worth reading the linked story of the resignation of the previous minister. It suggests that what is going on here is more than just sexism, it is a very personal conflict between the progressives and the traditionalists, with the latter especially out for blood. The comment here by Tim Carson (scroll down from Oldest First) tells a similar story by a male minister.
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The bottom line is that the members who control whatever governing council is in place get to decide, whether you agree with them or not.
.
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@Jack I have never been a member of a church with a more beloved pastor than what Riverside had in Pastor Amy---- the congregation itself overwhelmingly supports her, and her sermons are followed by people all over the country. As for your amazing insight that the governing council has the power to fire her, congratulations on locating the most obvious statement of fact available. The point isn't if they could, the question is if they should have.
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When will people learn that organized religion is merely a power play, a way for men to gain power and influence. Our government is complicit by giving these organizations tax exemptions thru 501c status. Male dominance won’t be given up freely. Women should just start their own church, many would join. They could even invent a female god figure, maybe call her Mother Nature. I would join.
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@Harry B
The largest protestant denomination in this country has tons of female clergy. Not only that, but over the years, they've had two openly gay moderators (a moderator being what they call their grand poobah). One was male; one was female.
Care to move up Harry? We'd love to have you (smile).
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@Harry B, you might join, if they would have you.
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@Astrid I love Canada
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Though in my case harassment was not an issue, I served a congregation of similar size and resigned after three years. The congregation was thriving and we were reaching into new, progressive and faithful directions. An insider power and control group resisted all this and found ways to characterize my ministry within the congregation as “not being a good fit.” When I did resign under pressure of this group that had discredited me the congregation as a whole was shocked. I would not be the last to leave in this fashion.
This all points to a deep dysfunction in which the church of tradition and establishment is committing a form of slow suicide. Everything that could renew and remake her is systematically killed. And when the story is finally told at the end of Christianity’s run in the west, There won’t be any mystery as to why.
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@Tim Carson Very similar story throughout my minister father's career. So much so that I no longer see the church as a collection for good, but rather a collection of oversized immature personalities set at getting their way, no better than my local homeowners association.
I hope Rev Butler finds a good fit, but I fear that the church as an institution has lost its way. I certainly will not have anything to do with it anymore.
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@Tim Ditto to your story. thanks for sharing. When I resigned, the power 5, while thrilled, were also upset because it exposed their bullying and harassment. Thankfully the power 5 have left and the congregation has a chance at resurrection.
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Several times in the article the Rev. Dr. Amy Butler is just referred to as Ms. Butler. I know at the beginning of the article it uses her full title but I feel it is appropriate throughout this article to make sure she is recognized as the Rev. Dr. She worked hard for those titles and deserves that recognition.
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@Dave I agree. Though stylistically it is appropriate to use "Ms." or "Mr." for clergy, the writer also refers to "Dr." Lowe repeatedly. Rev. Dr. Butler has as much claim to that title -- she has earned it -- as does Dr. Lowe. Either Rev. or Dr. would have been far more appropriate than "Ms."
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@Dave I was wondering the same thing, and found this, where the Times addresses the use of honorifics:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/08/reader-center/why-does-nyt-call-president-mr-trump.html
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@Dave
Newspapers and magazines have style guides that determine the use of titles and honorifics. Many, perhaps most, mention the title the first time a person is referenced and thereafter Mr., Mrs., Ms. or just the full name.
It has nothing to do with sexism or her being denied recognition. She was recognized at the outset. Thereafter, it's redundant.
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The "stained glass ceiling" is still a reality for many women in the church, no matter how talented or accomplished. This takes two forms:
First: large, well-resourced congregations have not hired many women to lead them. If they do, the tenures are short and end badly.
Second: Female clergy are harassed by male lay leaders at an alarming rate. They are punished for sounding the alarm about it.
Sadly, I am not surprised by Rev. Butler's story. I wish her well. I hope this spotlight achieves the visability that this issue deserves.
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When I was Cub Scout age living on Riverside Drive I went to riverside church because they were starting a Cub Scout troop. I was not allowed to join because my family and I are Jewish. That was more than 50 years ago. Somethings don't seem to change enough
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@John Lipkin
John - this story is about women in the church and their harassment in the present day. Let's stay focused on that please.
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@John Lipkin, Churches often give space to Scout troops, but they do not control who can or cannot participate. Those decisions are made by local Scout leaders or by the larger organization.
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@Cousy He is focusing on the big picture: that sadly discrimination still flourishes even among those who are supposed to be extra good.
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