I always find it amusing when white privilege men speak of their “neighbors” being undocumented. What is the over/under any of these men has an undocumented neighbor? I will take 0.
3
On the other hand, as someone who likes to think of themselves as an informed and well educated citizen, even I have reservations about cooperating with the government on this.
I totally understand the stakes, particularly for a small state like mine, but I worry about how this administration will use the data it collects on Americans, citizens and noncitizens alike. I can’t even imagine the terror some must feel for much more legitimate reasons than mine.
In France the government fears the people. For the first time in my lifetime, I fear the government. It’s not a great feeling.
179
Why wouldn't you want to participate in a constitutionally mandated headcount? We have conducted a census every ten years since the founding of the nation.
28
@Mostly Rational,
A count of "citizens" isn't Constitutionally mandated. Please review the language of the Constitution.
33
@avrds
Hey everyone is in danger when there's a unqualified, megalomaniac in the Oval Office. This is the most dangerous time in American history.
81
Trump has already poisoned the 2020 census to the extent that there WILL be big undercounts in the blue states. That was the goal of Trump (and gerrymandering Republicans nation wide) all along.
Trump did not get his citizenship question into the census, but he did manage to intimidate many immigrants, other non-citizens and their families. In many households with just one non-citizen, and many others with citizenship (even those born in the US), the entire household out of fear may avoid being counted. It's intimidation by Trump and the Republicans who can be vicious against immigrants, especially non-White immigrants.
123
@NY Times Fan:Why is it that those from posh, NON DIVERSE neighborhoods, always appear to be the most rabidly anti TRUMP,taking the side of "indocumentados" as opposed to immigrants, which signifies that like Juliana, my "cuisiniere" from IBURRI whom I sponsored for a visa and here now is LEGITIMATELY here. We who pay our taxes, compete with illegal, cheap labor in the job market have a right to know who belongs here, and who does not!If 1 has the means to own property in Saratoga Springs, doubt that 1 sees that many immigrants on a daily basis, except those who come to cut the grass, and take care of the jardinage or r employed as family caterers.Why the sensitivity about giving our your name? Never understood why you would not want to be identified as an anti Trumper. "D'ou vient la peur bleue?"
3
Well, even without census count suppression, the Republicans still have gerrymandering, voter suppression, and over representation of small states in the senate to maintain minority rule for the plutocrats.
1
Our politicians and Audiovisual media are singlehandedly moving this country into a cold civil war.
2
People illegally entering the US are not "immigrants". We don't call robbery "an activity" - it's "an illegal activity". We can discusss what to do about about "illegal immigrants" - but not if we pretend they are indistinguishable from people who immigrate to our country legally. Beyond annoying.
6
Democrats have lost my vote over their cheerleading, ad nauseam, and obstructionism on behalf of illegal aliens...now numbering over 20 Million residing in this country, with tens of thousands more brazenly trespassing across our porous borders every month...at a cost to American workers in the $Billions.
And here I presumed that ‘Governors’ were elected and sworn to serve the best interests of the ‘American’ citizenry. Apparently not...
6
In this age, rules are for fools. How many people are living in your home? Add a couple, why not? Randomize your citizenship, why not? Count the pets, does wearing a sweater make you human (maybe)? You want to manipulate the count? We can all do it!
1
If the three Western Governors are successful, then Texas, New Mexico and Arizona will be the big financial losers.
1
@robert62
As a Texan, one can only hope. If our governor wants to scare Hispanics into not responding, I guess we'll lose some of our gerrymandered representatives.
1
Counting illegal immigrants as citizens is a miscount.
5
@maguire
They're counted as people, not citizens.
1
Let me guess: they’re all sanctuary states.
5
"...it appears President Trump has finally conceded defeat after the Supreme Court blocked the question from being included last month." The piece was apparently written before Trump changed his mind. Why wasn't this corrected before publication?
Can The Times explain how this question appeared on page 6 of the 1990 consensus and also in 1980? No one cared then, and Obama removed it in 2010. Guess we need a narrative.
4
I moved to Washington almost 40 years ago, more proud than ever to live here today. You know what trump, leave us alone out here on the west coast, we don't buy your fear mongering, hate and divisiveness. In a mere 16 months you will be nothing but a footnote in the long arc of American history, I'm counting down the days...in Washington.
Readers do know that this question was on the census many times before, although sometimes it was only on the long form. It was pulled in 2010, but should not have been.
While I understand that illegal immigrants require a lot of money to subsidize their housing, healthcare, etc. that doesn't mean that they should impact our representation in Congress. Sorry, but illegal immigrants have no legal standing.
4
@Ma What do you mean by illegal immigrants require a lot of money to subsidize their housing and healthcare? Where is your data on that?
1
@Ma
Illegal immigrants do not cost us money; they work harder than most American and they subsidize us with payments for social security and medicare that they will never collect.
2
This is a necessary effort. Unfortunately, it's complicated by failures of laws to protect sensitive data. Washington state is one of three the NYT recently wrote about regarding use of facial recognition and Department of Licencing databases. In Washington state, that requires a court order.
There may be employees who don't know that or who ignore that requirement. King County, which includes Seattle, allowed its jail records to be accessed over 1,000 times by ICE officials after it passed a law forbidding that. The staff training in how to enforce the law somehow didn't occur. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/king-county-employees-were-never-trained-to-deny-ice-access-to-information-despite-new-law/
Part of the outreach must be to explain that the Census records cannot and will not be accessed by employees of the Department of Homeland Security including ICE.
How much faith would you put into such an assurance?
These are all very strong state-driven initiates to assure our citizens are counted. As a Washingtonian and west-coaster, I could not be more pleased with these approaches.
No state or politician can claim that the problem of counting people is just too difficult. The road maps laid out herein should serve as potential blue prints for a federal initiate to create the most accurate count possible for the entire nation. Every citizen in every state should demand such efforts. If they do not, their states will be under-counted and their share of federal resources will be undercut. Even racists and xenophobes should understand that basic concept.
1
Adding the question of citizenship is another data point including more data into the census. What it will do is lessen the incorrect proportion to any jurisdiction adjustments for future elections. The assumption, probably correct, is it these folks will vote Democratic. Unethical and dangerous.
1
The reason Donald caved on the census question is that he didn't want a court judgment officially charging Trump and the Republicans with racism and political manipulation of the Census.
The clear direction of court proceedings was to admit the evidence of Thomas Hofeller's gerrymandering and strategic planning to skew the electorate for Republican gains.
Better to withdraw the question and end the trials before they let the cat out of the bag.
These governors are doing what the founding fathers wanted, making sure that all the people (numbers) are being counted.
If when they wrote the document they wanted only the citizens to be counted, they would have said so because they did for certain members of the population.
2
@BTO
The founding fathers didn’t account for the possibility of foreign migrants stampeding across our sovereign borders month after month, year after year.
We have over 20 MILLION illegal aliens brazenly residing in this country, exploiting our porous borders and public services...costing American taxpayers $billions. And Democrats promise them the moon....at taxpayer expense, of course.
3
The Census has never been accurate as to who resides in the country. Ask most people who ever worked taking the census and they will tell you that lots of people refuse to either answer their doors or slam doors in their faces. This has been going on almost as long as there has been a census. Nothing to do with Immigration as much as people not trusting the Government.
That said, It is quite clear why Trump wants the Citizenship question on the Census. It was all spelled out on the hard drive of
Thomas Hofeller, who was the mastermind behind the GOP's gerrymandering strategy who left four hard drives and more than 75,000 files and 18 thumb drives according to a report by the NYT . Common Cause has brought suit in North Carolina over this matter.
The bottom line is to 'fix" the 2020 election in favor of the Republicans.
Good Luck to Common Cause in the North Carolina.
Enough said.
3
Thanks to this administration's toxic combination of maliciously evil intent and crippling incompetence, were I in the position of being anywhere in the process of legally qualifying for citizenship... green card, work permit, asylum applied for, etc. Let alone illegal. I would avoid the next census like the plague.
I fear the damage has already been done.
Good news from these governors. Now let's move on other actions in common, on the environment and climate change. What Iowa or Alabama thinks about this is of only minor jnterest.
3
Yes. The illegal aliens will be counted – the ones who crossed the border illegally. The Democrats will gain more illegitimate representatives and delegates as a result.
And why is this the moral high ground for our democracy? The moral high ground is for citizens to stay in their own countries and work toward improving their own countries. Or, to legally migrate to another country.
We heard Mr. Inslee at the first Democratic debate. The only thing worse would be Kate Brown as his running mate if he carried the nomination.
6
@Downsize Now!
Um, for starters, what happened to "No taxation without representation"? No matter what the documentation status of the people in a given area, they are paying taxes (sales taxes, at least, much more if they are working). And they are using the infrastructure, raising children who are citizens, testifying in court, etc., etc. Economically and socially, you cannot pretend they do not exist and are not part of the picture when it comes to the general welfare of their communities.
4
@ss
Are you kidding? Illegal Aliens...aka the trespassing citizens of other countries...don't even have the right to stand on American soil much less have the right to congressional representation.
2
@Susanna Hmmm, they don't have the right to stand on American soil. Then I say you don't have a right to eat any food picked by migrant farmers (which pretty much includes anything in your refrigerator right now) or eat meat slaughtered and packaged in a US meat packing plants (staffed almost exclusively by legal as well as illegal immigrants). Immigrants made up 28% of direct in-home health care in 2013, with 1 in every 5 being undocumented; undoubtedly that number is higher today and will continue to grow as Americans age and Alzheimer's victims require care. In 2012, 68% of immigrants participated in the labor force, as opposed to 63% of people born in the US. Trespassing? They are vital, tax-paying members of this country.
3
In the context of a census (basically, a comprehensive head count of everyone living in this country), the question "Are you a citizen?" is as irrelevant as "What's your favorite color?" or "What's your favorite sports team?"
2
@hdtvpete
Except the census is used for apportionment of votes in Congress, and that is based on citizen counts in each state. Including non voting people (such as illegal aliens) distorts one of the main functions of the census.
2
The Constitution mandates a count of the resident persons, NOT CITIZENS. And now there will be NO citizenship question on the census.
Everyone, especially non citizens, should participate, or they will lose the representation that they are entitled to and the racists in control of the Republican party will win.
6
We all are part of race religion or ethinic group an th press places ut against one and another . We are in a time where the book 1999 is reliatalty prescribed drugs. And we have no faith in our leaders and goverment. May be history has some thing to teach us. The ancient books have word we should revisit. Nephilim, Anunnaki, Istar, Onu,Inanna, Anunciante,Anunnaki de we should revisit all races have this in common.
"Let that sink in. Seven million people who are our neighbors, friends, colleagues and family, and whose lives are woven into the fabric of our communities."
A study by the Pew Research Center put the number of illegal aliens in the United States at 10.7 million in 2016 (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/us/illegal-immigrants-population-study.html).
Let that sink in. Nearly eleven million trespassing interlopers, stealing jobs from American citizens on the bottom of the economic ladder, stealing food and services intended for the children of America's poorest families, and essentially destroying American communities with their presence and their scofflaw behavior.
And while virtuous, conscientious, aspiring legal immigrants assiduously fill out forms, pay fees, and patiently wait their turn, these eleven million detestable cheaters clog up the system with false asylum claims and cause the very agency designed to serve immigration to burn up funds tracking down and removing the illegal aliens.
The most sensible thing to do is to immediately expel all illegal aliens from our country. It just makes good sense.
6
@NorthernVirginia
Perhaps it would be even more sensible to make it easier for non-immigrant workers to pick our crops and do the other work US citizens on the bottom of the economic ladder find too taxing to do.
2
Why is it that Trump’s chosen lawyers have such trouble following the law? Ever since his election Trump has tried to evade the law on various issues and his lawyers have written specious legal arguments supporting them. SCOTUS has decided against Trump maneuvers, Federal judges have decided against many of Trump’s legal maneuvers, and yet these lawyers press on with what appears to be total ignorance of the written law, even to the degree of wanting to change a legal team in the middle of litigation on the census questionnaire. It goes beyond frivolous law suits, it is simple stupidity. On another issue regarding the census questionnaire, The Constitution requires a census of all residents, not citizens, it is clearly written as such, why is that so difficult to interpret and apply?
2
If these states were countries, the UN would be investing them.
California has 100k people (refugees) living in tents and a level of income inequality not seen since Stalinist times, Oregon has the police abetting the beating of journalists, along with tent cities. Blue helmets would be deployed along with food drops.
Stop Grand Standing and get to work.
It's good to see these progressive states comprising one of the world's top 5 economies taking a stand to assure just representation. After all, they contribute a disproportionate share to the federal treasury compared to the welfare states that voted for, but have seen no benefit from, a Trump presidency. And, yes, immigrants are net contributors to their economies and to citizen services. Withhold judgement on Oregon's pledge though, after seeing Gov. Brown and a her party cave to a small minority on public health (vaccines), firearms control, and climate change in the recent legislative session.
2
Thank you Kate, Jay and Gavin.
Pacifica is the best place to live in our rapidly disintegrating country.
6
I have no desire to see the current POTUS re-elected but it's these types of opinions that most in middle America will have a hard time accepting. Just because it's morally right (and accepting refugees, particularly those with children in tow is absolutely the right thing to do), it does not mean that Trump's base cares about the consequences outlined here. The message articulated here by these three governors will do nothing as A.) Trump's base is not reading opinions in the Times and B.) it states the obvious to anyone with a conscience. Many people are not necessarily anti-immigrant hard liners, they're anti-ILLEGAL immigrant hard liners and there are more of them than us! Dems have got to figure out a way to appease voters who feel that liberals are "giving away" the country to people here illegally or they risk losing the White House again.
2
It’s interesting that researching my Polish family’s history, I found hand-written census records from 1920 and 1930 that had my grandfather, grandmother and their kids listed. Only the three children who were born here were citizens at that time (my father became a naturalized citizen in 1945), but they were certainly counted. Didn’t seem to be a major problem for them even though my grandparents were illiterate-it indicated that on the form and that Polish was their first language. And it was at a time when discrimination against Russians (when my family immigrated there was no Poland-they came from the part of what is now Poland that was Russia-in fact the reason my grandfather came here was to escape the Russian-Japanese war-but that’s a whole different story!-) was rampant. The difference, I suspect, is that the census workers were probably from the community and were trusted and my family was white and probably already “blending in” with the majority population. And my grandparents never became citizens. I guess that’s why I understand the fear in the undocumented community; if what is happening now happened to my family, I’m sure I would have heard stories about fear instead of the stories about opportunity and love for this country that I heard growing up. Makes me sad.
7
@Pragmatic, what a great comment! I often try to explain to trump followers that THEIR forebears did not have to worry about their status; America didn't (officially) weaponize immigration like trump is doing now. Thank you for helping us bridge the "us versus them" mindset this administration pushes.
2
@deb I think part of the reason is that most people are far removed from their ancestors who immigrated here so don't know the oral history like I do...when it's your dad who came over on a ship, it makes it much closer to home. I'm not trying to defend them...but I do think it makes it harder to empathize the further away from immigration you are.
1
For those who wonder why having a citizenship question on the 2020 census is such a big deal:
(1) After the start of World War II, the census bureau released data to the government that facilitated the location and detainment of Americans of Japanese descent. Although the bureau denied culpability at the time, evidence of their cooperation finally surfaced at the start of this century.
These people were full American citizens and had done nothing wrong, but anti-Japanese sentiment after Pearl Harbor resulted in their being tarred with a broad brush. Many of them went on to distinguished service in the American military during the war.
(2) Read the op-ed, "ICE Is Dangerously Inaccurate" in today's Times to see how even some bona-fide American citizens have been accused of being illegal immigrants for lack of current paperwork or clerical mistakes. Overzealous enforcement of immigration laws can create more problems than it solves.
(3) The census bureau is not in charge of immigration laws nor enforcement of same. Their charge is to perform as detailed a headcount as possible, as mandated by the Constitution. Nothing more, nothing less.
6
In the interest of public safety, you know what question I'd like to see on the census form: Do you own a gun? That couldn't possibly cause anyone to avoid responding to the census, could it?
4
@Martin Kohn, exactly. When responding to trump supporters who scream that the gov't should be able to ask any question it wants, I ask them: what if the next census comes around and a question is put on there (just for national security) how many guns are in the home, and what type they are. If there are guns, how much ammo do you store at this address? After all, citizens could rise up against the Democratic president, and we need to know where gun lovers are, right?
Their response is always crickets. Seriously, they think no further than 2020, and they believe every silly claim FOX makes. (1970, started using a universal short form AND a more detailed long form for 1 out of 6 homes, that DID have a citizenship question on it.) Totally misinformed, they make up in fury what they lack in common sense.
Again, trump cult members: A power YOUR president steamrolls over the constitution will be a power for future presidents too. If you are crossing your fingers for trump-only presidency for life, thru this type of skullduggery, duly noted. I expect only insults or FOX lies in reply. If you are going to claim some sort of historical census 'illegal immigrant' facts, be prepared to cite them.
1
Dear Progressives. Articles like this are why you will lose a national election. However morally or ethically superior you may feel, most Americans retract at the mention of services and tax dollars being deployed toward illegal immigrants. Nobody is calling for their persecution - but you seem to fail to recognize the operative word which describes their cohort...”illegal”.
7
More government funding to get illegal aliens counted and to provide them with resources means less funding for U.S. citizens and legal aliens. They would love to see voter fraud by having illegal aliens vote in all elections. These states include sanctuary cities who violate federal law. Let them get less funding because they don't give a hoot about federal law except when it comes to getting money from the federal government. Let them deal with the consequences of putting illegal alien rights before those of their citizens and legal residents.
6
@Barbara Funny thing, the only documented cases of voter fraud in the recent elections involved Republicans. How will counting all residents, legal and illegal, cause you personally to lose some funding?
2
Three Democratic governor's pen a letter to the NYT telling its readership exactly what they want to hear and reinforcing the reason they come to the NYT in the first place. What a profile in courage. That pesky 14th Amendment is just ignored.
5
Its not a manipulation of the census if you are counting illegals and distinguishing then from vote eligible adults. Its just more information.
7
The Census Bureau is being used by the Democrats to shore up undeserved federal aid in their districts that are rife with undocumented invaders. Immigrants are those who have lawfully immigrated to the United States. Foreign national invaders are those who broke federal law, have no legal right to remain in the United States and should not be used as a political tool for the Democrats to shore up federal resources, political power and future voters. ICE needs to remove each and every one of these families. But they need our help as concerned Americans Americans should report undocumented families with orders of removal. Report large and small business who also violate federal labor laws by hiring undocumented workers. Why should I or any other New York been paying city, state and federal taxes to finance billions of dollars for people so that the DNC can use them as a political tool? Queens, NY is a great place to start where illegals run amuck. I will continue to do my part by reporting people to ICE with orders of removal. Americans don't need a Census Bureau to help out our nation. We only need a phone.
5
They are all governors of states in which I would love to reside.
I have finally given up my hope of shaping the US into a country that I can respect, but there are individual states which show merits and moving to one of them is my new focus.
3
The citizenship question is, and always has been, about one thing - rigging the system in the GOP's favor. This was the goal from the very inception of the question.
And the Administration is trying to pass it off as helping minorities. Tell me, when was the last time the GOP went out of there way, spending millions of dollars, and fighting all the way to the Supreme Court - to help minorities?
It would be hilarious, if it wasn't so transparently pathetic.
4
Let's drop the notion that Trump has any clue why adding a question to the census would be good for him. Too much detail.
This plot has been in the making for years. Coming from a racist, scared, exclusive, white privileged GOP that wants to keep power for as long as possible. Pack the courts with partisan judges. Use the census to send less money to progressives and communities of color. It all fits the same pattern.
They need to be voted out of office, all of them. Starting with Mitch McConnell, the most dangerous and cynical GOP politician around.
3
Right position, wrong optics.
Did Democrats miss the memo? Trump rode immigration to the White House. If he is able to keep the issue front and center, with Democrats appearing to favor illegal immigration with Trump standing against it, he wins another term.
If you really want Trump out next year, drop the sanctimonious tone on immigration. You are just playing into his hands. Right or wrong, immigration is his winning issue.
5
Trump loses again. But so does America, where millions of immigrants will still be afraid to answer census questions. Win or lose, the xenophobia of Trump still intimidates immigrants and plays to his base.
1
A nation has the right to know how many people living within its borders are citizens. Even Canada asks this question. This is yet another example of illegal immigrants being granted preferential treatment to American citizens. We can't give the country away and have it also.
5
@Grunt Illegal immigrants are living here and working here, and you benefit from their labors daily; just open your refrigerator door. Who do you think picked your vegetables and fruits; slaughtered cattle to provide your neatly-wrapped hamburgers? How are they being granted preferential treatment? How are we giving away our country? Nice slogans, how about some examples?
Right from the start this piece is dishonest. The debate has never been over immigrants, or even foreigners, but about illegals. Are people who are not supposed to be in America supposed to be counted in the census? By equating illegals with citizens, states such as California claim a greater share of the money from Washington, and a higher proportion of the seats in Congress. Is this what the Constitution intended? In fact Article One of the Constitution is quite clear that simply being in the US is not enough to be counted in the Census! Though this was modified by the Fourteenth Amendment, that also reinforced the restriction of the vote to males - something obviously not practiced. Only the courts can decide whether citizenship may be asked in a census but given the question's long history, and that the courts' sole problem appears to be the government's approach to incorporating it, any suggestion that Trump is seeking to manipulate the census would appear to be self serving propaganda.
3
@John Smythe You made the point: Only the courts can decide whether citizenship may be asked in a census, and in this case they have decided it cannot. It is not the prerogative of any administration, Republican or Democrat, to decide to include that question without explaining its express purpose. Trump has already accomplished his goal of manipulating the census by spreading fear among not only illegal immigrants but also those seeking asylum legally or permanent legal residents.
"Our government should not be intentionally inciting fear."
Every time an armed police officer walks down the street, I hope she does inspire fear in those who might commit criminal acts.
If our Congress, elected by all of us, wants to de-criminalize unauthorized entry in to the United States, then so be it. But for now, it is a crime. The law of our land is that foreign nationals need our permission to live here. If a foreigner without permission to live here is afraid to answer a question about their citizenship status, that is entirely their issue.
I hate having Trump as my president. But if Ds fight silly battles like this and others (taking away my private healthcare, forcing me to pay reparations to descendants of the enslaved when I had nothing to do with it, etc.), they'll force me to vote for the guy I would hate to vote for.
Please, Dems, pursue reasonable policies that middle of the road voters can support. I'm afraid you guys are going off the deep end.
7
Growing up in L.A, I have come into contact with illegal Mexican immigrants all my life, since the 1950s. I also worked alongside them as a teenager. I knew they were illegal because they would scatter when a suspicious van came around. (I am singling out Mexican immigrants because they seem to be the highest numbers, and take the most heat).
I am not smart enough to know all the pros and cons of this issue, that seems to obsess Trump. I don't know the answers to our illegal immigration, though they seem to be an administrative failure. I do know that it's a very old issue that neither party has cared to resolve for a very long time.
Our Mexican illegal immigrants have not affected my life, nor anyone I know here, one negative iota. If their culture was more violent or detrimental to my town, perhaps I would care more. My over six decades of experience with illegal immigrants from Mexico is overwhelmingly positive, so I suppose that's why I just shrug.
I recently had my house re-roofed. Seeing the crew was all Mexican, I asked the foreman out of curiosity about his recruiting. He said he recruits year-round, and only Mexican men show up for a job. It is difficult work and tough in summer.
I love the Mexican people here, whether legal or illegal (and Mexican food!) and I hope we can find an equitable immigration solution that is superior and humane, as opposed to harming families.
3
@Jules
Working class wages are lowered by unskilled, uneducated immigrants legal or illegal. They burden schools and hospitals and drive up the price of affordable housing for citizens. That is how citizens are affected.
3
The citizen question was on the census until President Obama had it removed . The media is trying to make it sound like Trump is trying something new. PS President Obama deported 1.5 illegal immigrants. I don't remember any fuss in the news media about it as Obama could do no wrong with the liberal media.
4
@P McGrath The citizen question was removed in 1960, not 2010. The citizen question used to be on the long form (which 10% of the population received), but the log form was replaced by the American Community Survey in 2010.
Funny but my grandparents and great grandparents -- all of whom were immigrants to this country -- never mentioned their trauma at having to answer the citizenship question that appeared in every census through 1950.
They must have internalized their shame. How unfortunate that they did not have the New York Times to defend them against this horrible indignity.
3
@John
It's a shame Chief Justice John Roberts didn't consult with you before casting the decisive vote against the CQ. If only he saw things as clearly as you do. Keep up the sarcasm, though, you could get tapped the next time a seat opens up on the Supreme Court!
1
Why are people interpreting ‘having a citizenship question’ as ‘non-citizens will not be counted’? That’s nonsense. Legal residents will just check ‘no’ and be done with it. They’re still counted!!!!
2
There should be no such thing as “communities of color” - there should just be communities, period.
Furthermore, this ridiculous artificial division of humanity into two groups, whites and everyone else, is warped and fosters an awful lot of conflict.
3
@Jon Agreed! It should just be Legal and Illegal. No matter who you are.
1
Common sense is in short supply. Illegals are not isolated people. They depend on each other and they look out for each other. And contrary to the statement here, they do not hide behind closed doors. Their kids are in the public schools. They work in our homes and on our farms, in our factories, and in our restaurants and retail stores. Some even have their own businesses with a bunch of employees.
The prediction that 7 million won't complete the census is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. There are no adverse consequences to answering the citizenship question. That is the law. And the college-educated dreamers and their families are well aware of that because it affects them and they are not stupid. These illegals will tell the other illegals, and they will also tell them that they need to complete the census to help the Democrats, who help them.
By the time of the census, almost every illegal will have been educated on this subject. Heck it's in the newspaper all the time. I predict that 57 1/2 immigrants will not participate in the census out of unfounded fear.
I've met a good number of illegals in Phoenix, including college-educated dreamers And they are well-informed about issues that affect them. And if the Arizona Republic and the local Spanish newspaper and Spanish radio stations make the law clear another 37 times, to make it a total of 100 times, you can be sure that everyone who needs to know will get the message.
"Our government should not be intentionally inciting fear."
Isn't that terrorism?
1
Immigrants in Fear?? We have around 1 Million Legal Immigrants every year. Are they in fear? Of what? We have 12 to 22 Million Illegal Immigrants in this country. They work for less money, are shorted on worker rights and safety. The economy's of these 3 states would collapse without them. And they know this. Is the Democrats actual goal to erase citizenship? Are they so shortsighted that all they see are Federal Dollars and the political power that comes from people hiding in sanctuary cities... I say yes.. Thats all they care about. Power.
5
Amazing how immigration status, and whether someone is not legally in this country, against our laws, gets tossed to the bottom of the pile. We need to know who is here and where they are. Governor sleepy Jay Inslee just wants more money for his state. He could really give a rip about Eastern WA where most of these illegals, who under our laws, are hiding in plain sight and should be removed if they won't go voluntarily. It is sad SCOTUS ruled (initially) that the citizenship question could not be asked.
It has been asked in the past in our census history, a fact not disclosed in this opinion piece.
4
My question is simple: Where is Obama in all of this?
Democrats, feigning vehement opposition to foreign interference in our electoral process, don’t seem to have a problem with non-citizens...millions of whom are illegal aliens... dictating the number of congressional seats, electoral votes, and the allocation of $billions in taxpayer dollars.
Absolutely breathtaking hypocrisy.
4
Hopefully, Trump will conduct immigration raids during the census which will scare illegal immigrants and their families from participating in the count.
2
The real problem has yet to get the attention of the media and officials: Republicans are planning to mount a campaign to eliminate all non-citizens from the calculations for apportionment of money and allocation of congressional seats.
Is it constitutional? No. However, constitutionality isn't the issue - power is the issue along with the assumed ability to set the political agenda for the next decade by claiming that non-citizens cannot be counted as part of the population and therefore the allocation of federal funds and congressional seats will swing more towards republican districts and states.
That is the real issue that we aren't discussing.
1
"A miscount would be devastating."?
Don't you mean MORE devastating?
Trump -- and his policies and depredations -- have already devastated our nation and our government.
1
Bravo for Oregonians, Washingtonians, and Californians and their governors.
1
Do the questions on the form even matter if one worries about being deported? Why fill out the form with name, address, etc if it could be used against you in any way by anyone, especially the current administration?
Seems obvious.
2
Brown, Inslee and Newsom are exemplary public servants who are governing on behalf of the wellbeing of all of the people who live in their states. The Constitution tells us everybody should be counted. Mr. Trump and his party would like to count only white conservative Trumpies--which is not Constitutional.
30
Can some one please explain why it is so tragic to find out the amount of legal citizens we have in order to plot representation? I cannot understand why this is so controversial.
9
The Constitution mandates a count of everyone present in the country every 10 years.
Research had repeatedly established that the Census count of everyone here will be inaccurate if a citizenship question is included.
To comply with the Constitutional requirement, a citizenship question may not, therefore, be included.
@MiguelM
Its actually quite simple. The data is already there. By not counting every soul regardless of legal status then you have an undercount. By aggregating the existing data (citizens and legal aliens) against the full count of souls you have a more accurate accounting of the illegal population. Adding GIS metadata to equation will let you know when the highest concentration of this population exists. Anything other than a full count (obtaining facts) is nothing more than partisan play resulting in inaccurate data used by many sectors of our society. But facts and data were never DJTs strong suit.
1
That this is even an issue is bizarre. Counting non-citizens, and thereby altering the apportioning of the House, is the equivalent of giving those people the vote.
Inch by inch the distinction between legal and illegal fades, until someday the Rule of Law will mean nothing.
I hope I’m long gone before that day.
13
@Longtime Japan
"Equivalent of giving those people the vote" ("those people" pretty much says it all) is a bit much. So they can't vote, but they can vote? What?
The census is used for MUCH more than determining the number of seats in the House of Representatives. How about infrastructure for example. Federal funds for local infrastructure takes into consideration the number of persons (not citizens!) served. Should your community, were it undercounted by half, received half those monies, meaning half the investment in your infrastructure? That's akin to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
Rule of law? It's nice to be able to pick and choose which law will rule. Besides, the Constitution and the 14th amendment talk of "persons" and ", not "citizens" being counted. That's law enough for me. How about you?
Don't be afraid. "Those people" have fled (not left!) their countries, have families, work hard and are just trying to make a living, just like 'muricans. If you want to talk about those immigrants that commit crimes, then let's talk about the home-grown criminals in the same breath. I think you'd be surprised by the ratio. Both of them go to jail, and one of them faces deportation on top of that.
Think it through. It is not as bad as the people trying to scare you into voting for them are telling you.
6
I applaud these governors efforts because they make sense. Census enforcement is far better handled at the local level, by state and community leaders who understand the fears and difficulties involved with frightened residents.
"There's power in numbers," write the governors which should be a no-brainer. But only in today's polarized America do anti-Democratic forces want to deny the counting of those numbers.
The Constitution spells out the importance of counting all people living in this country; it wasn't envisioned by the founders as a way to break down the numbers into two batches, citizens and noncitizens.
Until now, when the GOP is trying to rewrite said Constitution to reflect its patrician focus on wealth, religion, and color as determinants of who belongs in this country.
3
Only an enumerator would physically “knock on theirs doors” which would be the long form, a 5% sampling. The other 95% will receive the short form, in the mail
Currently this issue is perhaps the most misinformed partisan issue, even by Governors. It also is what they have been calling a “Constitutional Crisis”. The 14th Amendment is very clear only people born here or naturalized are citizens, and representatives in Congress are based upon each states population of citizens
Meanwhile these Governors would like as many votes as possible both in the House and Electoral College, as they seek a power that is both absolute and permanent
10
Article 1, Section 2 of the Constitution does not require citizenship status for inclusion in the enumeration for representation.
‘Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.’
3
“(Illegal) immigrant families are being terrorized” by the Democrats hyperbolic catastrophizing about the President, not the President’s ineffective and rarely implemented policies.
6
@KBronson
Being ineffective and rarely getting anything done must mean you're not voting for him, right?
1
@KBronson
No hyperbole here, and this President has been nothing short of a catastrophe--a national emergency in fact.
1
The June Harvard-Harris poll asked if it was OK to include a question about citizenship on the census. It did not include any implications, just the question.
And the majority, including a majority of Democrats, said yes.
It is not the question that's the problem--it was asked for many years and most other countries ask it.
It's the fact that many won't do the census if the question is there. And that has nothing to do with renters and language difficulties.
And it is the impact of an undercount--in allocation of federal dollars, number of House members, etc--that is problematic.
So I wish people would stop framing this as if there is something inherently wrong with the question. There isn't. It's the impact of asking--and that is a different matter. Important but different.
9
Question: Does the Census count a pregnant woman as 1 or 2 people (and possibly more)?
If the Census does include an unborn child in the count, at what stage of the pregnancy does the Census consider the child to be a person?
5
The contradiction here is, people swear up and down that there are no non citizens voting, but they are terrified of a citizenship count. Why?
15
@Michael Livingston’s
The contradiction is because you're comparing apples to oranges. The census is to count people, not citizens. Talbot's comment above explains the implication of adding the question. Adding the question has nothing to do with Trump and his allies don't give a rodent's rear-end about how many citizens there are. This effort to add the question is to suppress participation by illegal immigrants in order to induce undercounting in mostly blue states, plain and simple. Undercounting means less representatives in the House, and less money for that State, a win-win for the GOP. This along with gerrymandering and voter ID laws, are the only tools available to the GOP to win elections, having long ceded the battle of ideas. The GOP has turned to framing the conditions of elections as their only path to victory (all the while wrapping themselves in the American flag and shouting "DEMOCRACY!" at the top of their lungs, of course). A pox on the lot of them.
1
Good on them for being concerned, and ungood on the rest of the governors for not making much effort.
I'm an ordinary white citizen, and today I fear the government too. I used to chuckle and/or shake my head in sadness at those who claimed to fear the government, but since Trump and the GOP's plan, my wife and I absolutely do. When they come for the immigrants, who will they be coming for next?
(A lot of sentences in the governors' letter begin with and.)
4
@Carbuncle They aren't coming for immigrants though, only Illegals. The distinction is critical, and one the Left desperately work to avoid.
3
I would offer safe haven in my house, but luckily I live in a State that is not doing evil things to our precious neighbors and friends.
3
This is one issue where I am vexed by the nature of the opposition. While on the one hand it is constitutionally mandated part of the census to count all the people present and use the count used for apportionment of representatives. But apportionment is based on the number of citizens present, not the number of persons. Number of persons applies to applications for Statehood. Even as a true blue democrat myself, I find it incredibly slimy that some states want to count illegals as part of their apportionment calculus, while obviously enjoying the fact that their labor and taxes can be exploited with little need for dedicated appropriated taxpayer monies for genuine social services -- which State taxpayers would balk at in mass. These states want to exploit illegals just as much as farmers, car wash services, and the household maid industry. Count them as faux citizens to bump up State representation, but otherwise ignore them for all else. Shameful.
13
@JTFJ2 Apportionment is based on the number of persons, not citizens. You say so yourself. People who are not citizens still use public services. They ride the bus, they might go to the emergency room, if their house catches on fire the fire department comes.
States want to count every single person, not just citizens, maybe because those persons, documented or not, are actual human beings with rights and human dignity. This is a concept that right wing Republicans don't understand.
3
@ML
However, you need to get a citizen or naturalized citizen count to apportion the vote. The count you are asking for cannot be use to apportion the vote.
@JTFJ2 No where in the constitution does it say to apportion based on the number of citizens. Originally slaves were counted for apportionment at 60% of a free person.
1
You're doing God's work, but what about Arizona and Texas which both have large immigrant populations but also Republican governors? What are they doing in those states to promote participation in the census? What can we do to help?
2
California and New Mexico include them in their counts
1
Just think, if Democrats had not squandered so much effort trying to create the illusion that the evil Republicans were untrustworthy and had sinister intentions in adding a citizenship question, they would not now be having to spend so much money now convincing people that they should respond to the census questionnaire.
Their motivation had nothing to do with their stated fear of an undercount, but rather to prevent the federal government from gathering reliable statistics on the number of eligible voters in order to assess the effectiveness, and enforce, voting rights.
As it turns out, the government is going to use other sources to append the census data so that we can have an accurate count of eligible voters. This will counter virtually every voter suppression allegation of the left. It will also allow Congress to allocate federal grants to states based on the number of citizens in the country, rather than on the number of residents.
10
May I suggest that this article might be used to support the proposal made by former US Census Department Director, Kenneth Prewitt, to end use of the present system and replace it with a system that sees each of us, citizen or not, in terms of SES (Socioeconomic Status) data.
His proposal is presented in Chapter 11 of his "What Is Your Race? The Census and Our Flawed Efforts to Classify Americans" recommends that we gradually eliminate use of the archaic system that assigns people to "races" and ethnicities and create a new system.
I would need to know more about what the three governors propose than I can learn from this helpful article, but I commend whoever drafted this particular line in the article:
"Oregon is convening MULTILINGUAL community forums to share information about the census and listen to people’s concerns..."
Whoever wrote that has done something almost never done here, refer to people in terms other than "race" and in this case telling us something essential about people, that they have a variety of mother tongues.
I am a Red Cross volunteer who has met at least 1000 asylum seekers at the Red Cross, and the first question I ask is "What languages do you speak". In America according to my contact person Professor Dorothy Roberts, the first question Americans ask is "What is your race?
Not this American, ever.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
@ Larry Lundgren, that is myself. This comment was accepted in a microsecond - thank you algorithm - so I pose a question to anyone who might read it and this reply.
Do you find the US Census Bureau system for classifying us Americans by so-called "race" and ill defined ethnicity to be satisfactory?
If you answer "yes" do you think it should be used throughout the 21st Century?
Grateful for even one reply.
@Larry Lundgren If you are Swedish (being in Sweden with a Swedish name and all...), perhaps you are unfamiliar with the American way of dividing people by race and ethnicity as is evidenced by the various organizations devoted to and run by THOSE RACES AND ETHNICITIES. Making your "group" separate for purposes of fund-raising, government funding or special benefits or public relations purposes is very common here. I don't think the homogenized approach in Scandinavia is working so well these days with your willingness to take so many refugees in that don't contribute to your way of life. Stories I've read in the NYT seem to show a great deal of unhappiness by growing numbers of Scandinavians with having to pay your very high taxes for your socialist society (which has worked well for you in the past) that now requires you all contribute a large amount of that to support these refugees, many, like in the U.S., who refuse to assimilate. And, just fyi, every job application you fill out in the U.S. asks you for several specifics (gender, race, ethnicity) as well as asking if you are in the U.S. legally. I have no problem with that.
2
@Hat Trick-It is clear that you have never read my 100s of comments on this subject. The key work on this subject is "What Is Your Race? The Census and Our Flawed Efforts to Classify Americans" by former US Census Bureau Director Kenneth Prewitt. In that book he traces in detail the process by which the American government chose to classify us Americans and in so doing used the political constructions created by racists and given names like White, Black, Asian etc.
Unfortunately, even though Prewitt is an expert and even though there are other leading scholars who want to end classification by "race"/ethnicity you will never see a discussion of this in the Times.
Your views on Scandinavia and Sweden do not bear on the American Dilemma.
Thanks for replying.
Larry L.
As a census taker in 2010, I’m shocked how many citizens in LA refused to deal with me—and I was only sent to see them after they failed to mail in their written form.
Millions want to come here while those already here take things for granted.
5
@DD What? Some person comes to your door asking nosy questions and you wonder at the non-cooperation?
There has been enormous fear of familial and individual vulnerability rising from the upcoming census. The process and accuracy of the census has been irrevocably compromised. The extent of the damage remains to be seen. The degree of damage will be difficult to quantify, but a flawed census is guaranteed.
The consequence is an attempted political coup engineered by Great Leader Trump's minions. The attempt will bear fruition, difficult to quantify, but certain.
We shall see whether this nation, originally conceived and dedicated to democracy and liberty can survive. Leader Trump's coup is well advanced. The forces to preserve our Union are not nearly as well organized as are the coup's plotters.
As individuals, we must take action to support our democratic leaders. Practically speaking, that means identify political figures who still believe in democracy and our American dream. Then we need to send them money to wage counter propaganda, to spread the truth about the threats to our way of life and our democracy.
Oppose Great Leader Trump's political coup. Support democracy. Shed light upon the danger that Trump, all his facilitators, his fellow-travelers, and just plain apathetic acceeders represent. Fight for democracy. Fight Leader Trump's political coup.
2
NYT headline: ICE Used Facial Recognition to Mine State Driver's License Databases. Knowing this, can anyone really blame the extreme caution being exercised by non-citizens to avoid interacting with the US government, specifically being counted in the census? Can anyone guarantee that this information won't be abused later by other agencies? A census undercount definitely would have negative consequences for the individual state, but being recorded and potentially persecuted would be disastrous for the individual person. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the government conducting massive immigration raids this weekend? Think of how much easier it will be in the future, after they have access to the census records, even without the grotesque citizenship question.
1
People who don’t want to interact with the US government should go somewhere where they don’t have to.
2
@Larry I see that the ideal of "Live and let live" has gone the way of the dodo. I kind of miss that display of tolerance. Although, now that I think about it, most people don't report their illegal neighbors and coworkers (such an action would have been anathema to the New Yorkers that I grew up with), so perhaps my fellow citizens cherish this ideal more than some Comments would suggest.
Congratulations, Governor Inslee and you fellow West Coast Governors, for taking this so seriously and working to undo the damage caused by the administration's suggestion of this question. I'm proud to live in a state where this is taken seriously, and hope to high heaven that you can get the word out before the census begins that it won't be asked.
5
@Susan
Inslee would make a good President.
While I agree that everyone needs to be counted I don't agree that representation in The House of Representatives and the Electoral College should be based upon the total number of people living in each state. Representation at the federal level should be determined by the total number of US citizens living in each state. It is, after all, the voters who send the reps to Washington. Non-citizens have no vote so there's no reason that their raw numbers should increase the power of a voter in say non-citizen heavy Texas over a voter in Pennsylvania.
I've got no problem with federal programs continuing to earmark funds to states based on the total number of people living in each state. The government still has obligations to all people who live there, regardless of their citizenship status.
Still, giving more power in Washington to states with large numbers of non-citizens is no more fair now than it was when the South was allowed to pad their representation in Congress by claiming slaves as 2/3 of person for their census counts.
9
@Chris Have your representative or senator introduce a constitutional amendment.
For the time being, you would then ask the census bureau to provide two numbers, am I right? One for general government services and one for representation. May I ask if the undocumented immigrants would be exempt from paying taxes too? There was a little matter of taxation without representation in 1775, wasn't there? Are you suggesting that undocumented residents of the United States have to pay a variety of taxes, including federal taxes on tobacco and gasoline, but are not to be represented in Washington where the laws about those taxes are written and passed? If you're not going to be counted for representation, you shouldn't be taxed either, no? Or have we jettisoned the principle for which our Founders fought?
In addition, the number concerning the counting of "all other persons" was 3/5, not ⅔, and the northern delegates were just as interested in not giving the South more representation (without more taxation) based on the "total number of persons," as the Southern politicians were interested in making sure slaves were maintained in the condition of slavery, to be counted as people for apportionment but as possessions for taxation and voting, which seems to be very conveniently contrived logic to me. The compromise, introduced by delegates from both PA and SC, is a stain on our nation's history, a perhaps unavoidable stain at the time, but nonetheless a stain.
6
By that standard I suppose the census should also omit children since they are not voters.
Well then, you need to change the constitution. Language is pretty clear: persons.
Interesting that this opinion piece did not include Massachusetts Governor Charlie Baker.... perhaps because his states already has a mandated citizenship question on their annual state census... (the only annual state census in the country) and that citizenship data for every resident is public like all the other data collected (name, home address, date of birth). These Governors have good points, perhaps they should talk with their counterpart in Massachusetts.
5
What a refreshing declaration. On the individual level, at least, democracy in the U.S.A. is alive and well.
4
As an Oregon resident, a former resident of California, and a resident of places outside of the United States for roughly a quarter of my lifetime, it is really uplifting to see the three governors come together to make such eminent sense and to have each of the state governments, local governments, and private citizens take action to do the right thing. These are indeed the times that try ones' souls, and we must either get this country back on track or see it perish.
Next step, governors, let's hear a joint statement on how to address climate change. I know Oregon suffered a setback last month, but we must overcome.
23
Only legal citizens should be counted. Why would legal citizens want to dilute their influence? Why would legal taxpayers want to subsidize those who pay little or nothing in taxes?
14
What makes you think they don’t pay taxes?
And makes you think all us born DO pay taxes? Our president probably hasn’t paid federal income tax ever.
20
Plus, there’s that pesky language in the Constitution about counting everyone, without a word about citizenship status.
Non citizens pay taxes as well. Why are we so selfish?
The argument that immigrant families would be afraid to answer the census questions about citizenship is spurious at best. Immigrants are not afraid to answer questions which they are proud to answer. If they are in the country legally and have citizenship they are proud of their citizenship. And if they are not yet citizens they are still thrilled to be in the US and on the road to such citizenship. The deliberate conflation of legal immigrants and illegal aliens under the single term "immigrants" is offensive to both those who acted properly in their entry to the United States and to our collective intelligence. Most Americans - despite the caterwauling and name calling from the progressive left - know the truth, and this is especially true among legal immigrants who are often more proud to be American than those of us who were born in the US. They, above all, are disgusted by the relentless invasion on the US souther border.
14
The illegal immigrants would not have come if there were not jobs for them. Why are we not prosecuting the employers? We only go after those who have no power!
They also ask what your income is.
1
The argument that immigrant families would be afraid to answer the census questions about citizenship is spurious at best. Immigrants are not afraid to answer questions which they are proud to answer. If they are in the country legally and have citizenship they are proud of their citizenship. And if they are not yet citizens they are still thrilled to be in the US and on the road to such citizenship. The deliberate conflation of legal immigrants and illegal aliens under the single term "immigrants" is offensive to both those who acted properly in their entry to the United States and to our collective intelligence. Most Americans - despite the caterwauling and name calling from the progressive left - know the truth, and this is especilly true among legal immigrants who are often more proud to be American than those of us who were born in the US.
5
I wonder if the folks making America great again in our border states realize the next time there's a disaster, resources will be allotted based solely on the number of legal citizens. Maybe that's fair, but when help arrives, they won't be choosing between legal and illegal; there just won't be enough to go around.
They can take comfort in the fact that climate change doesn't exist but if it did, I'd want the census to count as many people as possible.
4
Based upon the actions of these governors in regards to the present day issues confronting the ENTIRE country I can only hope that no other governor follows in their footsteps. They have set a bad example and real Americans cannot stand what they are doing. If the readers don't know what I am referring to then they need to keep up with the news.
17
@Donald Please provide your list of your unsubstantiated qualifications to be considered a "real" American. I'm pretty sure that I, having been born here in Tucson, Arizona, and my husband, Lt. Col. Franklin Lane, USMC (ret.), class of 1973, USNA, having been born in Virginia are "real" Americans and we both support what these governors are doing. We do not support Trump on anything and are card-carrying members of the Resistance.
2
I’m a real American & I admire what they are doing. I don’t admire you or Trump!
3
Just wondering, if these governors are so concerned with counting everyone, perhaps they might also give everyone the right to express their vote in the ballot box. Why should one be counted and then be air?
I refer not to illegal immigrants here, but rather to convicted felons. Is their voice less important in prison? While still on parole?
And one additional note:
"We know that immigrant families, terrorized by the president’s policies"
Do the governors not mean "illegal immigrants". It is somewhat dishonest and unfair to legal immigrants to combine the two categories.
13
@Joshua Schwartz,
Alas (and I could name names, but won't for the obvious reasons), there are legal immigrants who are being terrorized by the president's policies. And for that matter, there are citizens (mostly children who, the Administration notwithstanding, are human beings) who are being terrorized by the president's policies and might not be counted were he to have his way. Even here in Oregon. And to claim otherwise is dishonest and unfair.
Do illegal immigrants have a right to be here? No, they do not. It is truly that simple. They may want to be here, their neighbors may like them, they may be law-abiding. All that may be true, but it is also irrelevant. We have a process for admitting foreigners and granting them legal resident alien or citizen status. But if they have neither, they must leave. I understand the human interest in letting them stay, but if we do, then does not everyone on earth have a right to be here? And if they do, what is the purpose of legal residency or citizenship? If we have a process for granting or denying refugee status, but the outcome of that legal process means nothing, then why even bother? There is no apparent limiting principle for who gets to stay if, in effect, it anyone who is not a felon. Is this now our immigration policy--show up and that's it? Evidently. Apparently, virtually nobody even cares anymore...unless I'm missing something.
23
@james s. biggs
Sir - you seem not to know that there are THOUSANDS of people living & working here LEGALLY who are not citizens! Green Card holders, Exchange Visitor (J) Non-immigrant visa holders (au pairs, college students, professors et al), Temporary Non-Agricultural Visa (H-2B) holders (jobs at hotels, ski & beach resorts et al), Temporary Worker Visa (H1-B) holders (skilled specialty workers) and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Visa (H2-A) holders.
These people are all living & working here legally, & thousands of them pay state & federal income taxes. They also pay state sales taxes every time they buy something. They are all legally entitled to the services of the state in which they are living, including police & firemen, schools, libraries & hospitals. Why would you NOT want them included in the census count, which is defined in the US Constitution as counting "people", not "citizens"?
FYI - Melania Trump got here with an H1-B Visa; evidently "skilled specialty workers" includes fashion models.
5
Tell that to the employers who hire them. They do not care that they are undocumented. How many Americans want to pick vegetables or clean at Trumps’s resorts?
3
77 percent of immigrants are here “legally “ meaning the have documents. Most of those who don’t have documentation had at one point but overstayed their visas .
1
Only Congress has the power to enumerate people for purposes of representation in each State every ten years (Article 1, Section 2).
The 14th Amendment amended Article I, Section 2 to include that the "respective Numbers" of the "several States" will be determined by "counting the whole number of persons in each State. It does not say count only citizens, its says "whole number of persons."
This provision was to include former slaves. Congress determines this Census through the Commerce Department. Not the President, and not the Attorney General.
Now, three Constitutionally educated Governors of Oregon, Washington and California eloquently point out a smart, efficient and non threatening way to participate in a census. The plan assures strict confidentiality and privacy.
Meanwhile, back in Washington D.C., the siren for national immigration raids are announced. How many immigrants will be arrested going to early Sunday church services--how many immigrants will be arrested whose US Armed Forces sons and daughters are fighting and dying in Afghanistan and Iraq--how many immigrants will be arrested whose children are US born citizens?
Thank you Governors Newsom, Brown and Inslee for banding together for a rational and humane way to conduct the Constitutionally mandated Census.
14
@AHM California How many immigrants will be arrested? None, at least intentionally. Lawful immigrants are welcome in the US. The debate has always been over illegals. It is this point that the Left continues to disingenuously ignore.
4
Thank you. I am proud to say that Colorado is one of several other states working to make sure everyone who lives here is counted and no one feels afraid to open the door. The census should be celebrated as bringing us together, not used to scare people.
11
If illegal immigrants don't have the right to vote in the US, then why should their inclusion in the census be allowed to influence the size of Congressional delegations for the states they reside in?
California has declared itself a sanctuary state, promising to welcome illegals immigrants and not to participate in their deportation. At the same time, Governor Newsom wants to ensure they get counted in the census?
One could reasonably argue that any state could declare itself a sanctuary, petition for open borders, and then make sure that millions of illegals within its borders help increase the size of the congressional delegation in the House and Electoral College.
What do these Governors have to say about that?
15
@Jason W
"What do these Governors have to say about that?"
They will say: "How good are you at picking farm produce?"
Apparently those states are big on agriculture... did you not know that?
@Jason W
"What do these Governors have to say about that?"
They will say: "How good are you at picking farm produce?"
Apparently those states are big on agriculture... did you not know that?
Edit to add: They often have kids. Would you prefer those kids picking lettuce or other produce, or in a school? Be honest.
@Chris I'd prefer the illegals and their kids NOT be in the United States ILLEGALLY.
1
Thanks to these three governors. I am so glad to live on the West Coast of this country where it feels safe from the Republican crazies for now. I know that things can change and I know the country as a whole is not a safe place for many people.
I am in my 60's and a native New Yorker of Italian-Jewish ancestry. My grandparents were immigrants and I know they sacrificed so their children and grandchildren could have a better life. I honor their sacrifice and the sacrifices of current immigrants.
I am appalled by Republican governors who are not working hard to ensure the full count of residents for the 2020 census. I have voted in every possible election since I was able to vote. I will continue to do so to help Democrats in my state and will contribute to Democratic candidates in other parts of the country....
24
Someone needs to start talking about what happened to the Census of Population for 1920. How was it used for reapportionment and redistricting?
It wasn't. The party that took control of Congress in 1920 didn't trust the Census and stood to lose. So they just refused to pass the reapportionment.
While the focus is on the citizenship question issue, the possibility that the Census will be botched by underfunding or incompetence hasn't been discussed. The goings on with the White House staff for the past 30 months doesn't give me confidence.
8
Thank you, Gavin Newsom, and Governors Inslee and Brown. I hope somehow governors throughout our 50 will follow your lead, although I will not be holding my breath for Republican-led states. People just do not seem to get the fact that our immigrants, documented or not, who have lived with us for years, are our neighbors, our friends, our trusted workers who help us not only personally but also the very state in which they live. We go to church with them; our kids go to school with them. They are representative of the diversity upon which our democracy thrives. As one final message, as reported on the News Hour just an hour ago...when ICE comes "a knocking" on the doors of the undocumented, those doors do not have to be opened. ICE has no authority when it comes to forced entry. It can not break in. Stay cool, my friends.
174
@Kathy Lollock
Good advice. The vineyard owners of Sonoma County need them and the tax-free cash economy they produce.
9
@Kathy Lollock Thank you Kathy. Well said.
1
Good going, governors. The Constitution (remember that document? It's in Article I, Section 2) mandates that everybody be counted. Let's do it right.
155
@Howard
Yes, and it was amended by the Article 2 of the 14th amendment that additionally requires a knowledge of the the number of “citizens” in each state for the constitutional enforcement of voting rights. Given that congressional work-around of the voting rights act is mostly unconstitutional and has been struck down , this is significant. The remedy for “voter suppression” requires a knowledge of how many of the “persons” in a state are in fact “citizens” qualified to vote.
10
@KBronson
Section 2 of the 14th Amendment says "...Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed..."
As for the VRA, the Supreme Court merely said that Congress needed to update which states were covered. Of course, the Republicans have failed to do this.
13
That can be done separately. And something tells me that the Republican’s could care less about the voting rights act!
10
The census is supposed to be a decennial event where every person in the United States is counted regardless of citizenship status. It is not supposed to be the hyper-partisan event Trump and his Secretary of Commerce, Wilbur Ross, are trying to turn it into. They have wasted time, money, and manpower on a question that can be better answered in other ways. As a taxpayer I resent this waste of my money and government employee time.
254
I took the proposed citizenship quiz and failed miserably. I'm 76 and had a great education too. Should everyone have to take a citizenship test if anyone has to?
5
@john michel I passed and disagreed with the one I missed
1
Proud to be an Oregonian (and former Washingtonian and Californian) where respect and caring for our fellow citizens is paramount! Thank you west coast governors for your ethical leadership!
271
The Left Coast, the BEST Coast. Thank you, Governors. You give me hope, and a much needed sense of optimism for the future of my two Granddaughters. Who just happen to be incredibly talented and intelligent. Hi, Girls ! See you soon.
THIS is yet another reason why I’m a loud and proud Democrat.
40
Funny, counting everyone in the country, not just citizens, was never an issue before Trump and Comp. took office. More Republican nonsense to maintain their old white guys minority rule.
136
@Philip S. Wenz
Under Trump, Republicans have become totally unethical and morally repugnant. They are the party of the shameless.
31
@Philip S. Wenz
It is only an issue because Trump is in office. In the past, it was not an issue. Read about the citizenship issue herehttps://cis.org/Richwine/History-Census-Bureaus-Birthplace-and-Citizenship-Questions-One-Table
8
@Philip S. Wenz
You are absolutely right!
Trump has created a false impression (i.e. LIE) that the information is NOT collected today and that we don't know how many non-citizens live in America. That is false - utterly false.
This date is collected already - by DHS, State Dept, USCIS, ICE, Social Security. That is how we know there are 12 million illegal immigrants living in America now - a number that has remained flat for several years.
The data is specific enough that we even know most of them did not enter America illegally, but have overstayed their originally legal visas.
This is another one of Trump's campaign tactics to divide the nation between whites and others, Dems and Repubs. Racism and white nationalism.
6
The actions taken by these three thoughtful, intelligent governors are a harbinger of things to come. Increasingly, Blue states will take any action possible to blunt the effects of the federal government's discriminatory actions. Blue states are trying their best to take care of their residents, despite the hardships placed on them by Washington. And Blue states are trying to do all this, while at the same time having to subsidize Red states, which are a net drain on our economy.
But we cannot continue in this state of affairs indefinitely. We cannot continue to have our federal tax dollars hijacked for bigoted programs, or to be used by those who would target minorities. At some point we will no longer tolerate our own tax dollars being used against our people in this manner, particularly when we are subsidizing the Red states. And especially when our political views and positions represent the majority of citizens in this country.
So the types of actions described by these three governors are just the proverbial finger in the dike. But at some point, things will break. Red state voters don't want to "come together" or "compromise". They simply want to tell us how to live, while living off our hard earned tax dollars. It is time to partition this country, to protect the residents within our Blue state borders regardless of their ethnic or religious backgrounds, and then let Red state citizens fend for themselves for a change.
63
@Kyle Reese This comment suggests a portion of the country, an idea I have toyed with for 40 or more years.Is it feasible? Before the Civil War, the division was North - South, but now it is rural vs urban. So there are pieces of each in most states. Maybe a division into four "countries" along these lines would work: The Northeast, including perhaps Pennsylvania ; The old Confederate South; the middle from Ohio to Oklahoma, and the West. A dream, but then, as the writer says, let the Red states fend for themselves.
9
@Kyle Reese Partion our country???? Are you serious? That will cause a civil war. Not a thoughtful idea. Especially when you consider how heavily armed red States are. We can do better than this.
3
@Bill Brown
The red states may be heavily armed, but one well-placed nuclear missile from the Bangor submarine base would wipe out a whole slew of AR-15s. Just sayin'
/s
I heartily agree we can (and should) do better!
6
The citizenship question is NOT new. And what Trump wanted to do is NOT manipulation. Citizenship was asked in 1820/1830 and off and one from that time forward. The only manipulation that can occur is voter manipulation when local communities allow non-citizens to vote be they run by D, R, or I. Makes no difference. Right os right and wrong is wrong. And truth is truth. The press needs to start informing instead of alarming. But even the the NYT knows most of it's readers will do little to no research and fact checking. Here is a link showing how and when and to what degree the Census used citizenship as a question:https://cis.org/Richwine/History-Census-Bureaus-Birthplace-and-Citizenship-Questions-One-Table
12
@old sarge
Lovely, it led to this: https://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/17/us/report-says-census-bureau-helped-relocate-japanese.html
The census question is not the problem. The problem is the way this administration has terrorized the undocumented for political reasons. People want to blame immigrants...documented or not for their problems. The problem is with corporate America & not these folks. It’s going to get worse. We have too many uneducated folks who do not fit in a knowledge economy.
Bravo, three of you- kudos for your leadership and taking a stand against con man’s criminal act. The emperor has no clothes- he thrives on xenophobia, fear mongering, relentless lies and division.
General election is not too far. I am appealing to you to use ypur common sense so that the pathological liar is defeated by a landslide. He survives by taking advantage of people’s concern and anger (even though he does not believe in any of them). It is a game for him. People are concerned about jobs, opioid crisis and hopeless future for their kids. While it sounds noble to declare sanctuary cities and offering healthcare for the undocumented, but they are absolutely counter productive to win the trust of the working class. It does not take lot of intelligence to figure out games played by con man. He sets up the trap and you are just jumping on it by giving him the fodder to start propaganda during the election cycle that you want open border. Another game is tariff- this is a trap he set for you so that it becomes another fodder for manipulating people. He will cut a meaningless deal sometime late this year since he has no intention to address it. Both border security and china tariff are the issues of the democrats- not him. Unfortunately, democrats lack the strategy to turn them around with a strong commitment to address those issues. It is likely that the grave errors will give the con man another 4 years and that will be the end of democracy as we know it.
3
Thank you, Governors!
2
Funny, I don't remember Obama demanding that all residents should be counted for the cencus.
3
You folks always have to beat on Obama. The census has always intended to count all people living in the US.
@Mary Sampson, I with you.
What I meant was that Trump undoes everything Obama achieved or said during his presidency.
I'd go as far to say if Obama "built the wall" during his presidency, then Trump would be railing to take it down because Obama built it.
1
Proud of my governor, Kate Brown
2
I will NEVER, simply as a point of pride and basic common decency, never agree with anything that spews out of the mouth of the charlatan-president. Still, I continue to be perplexed by the failure of politicians to not point out the difference between "immigrants" and "ILLEGAL immigrants". EVERYONE who's in this country legally should be counted BUT how does one defend the view that a census of this country should also include those people here illegally? If I, an American citizen, overstayed my welcome in Canada or Mexico would I receive the option to be counted in a national census of the citizens of those countries AND/OR receive any sort of government benefits that all legal citizens of those countries receive? I'm a bit perplexed by this very singular issue, I confess.
9
Devastating? No, insignificant. It might switch a couple of congressional seats around. Perhaps not.
The tone of hysteria is off-putting.
1
Trump understands nothing. He doesn't understand what the census is for. He doesn't understand why his corruption of the census process is illegal. He doesn't understand why he needs to be bound by court decisions.
So what else is new?
This is the Trump pattern for the past two and a half years. Don't read; don't listen to any one; don't pay attention to the rule of law, or even try to understand the law. Just blast forward with anything that comes into Trump's head at 4 AM.
How can we control this crazy person? He has his handlers who have tried and tried, to no avail. The only remedy will be to vote him out of office. We must do this!
9
We have seen the disdain that this administration has for science, data and facts if it interferes with their agenda. Kudos to these governor's for counter-balancing the dizzying avalanche of lies, fear, xenophobia, misogyny, incompetence and malevolence that is the hallmark of this administration.
The saddest part of this saga is that it was laid bare that their true intention was to undercount people they viewed as opposed to them as a naked power grab. And that there are many who were ok with that.
6
So Democrats want illegal immigrants included in the census so they can both (1) increase the amount of federal aid a state gets and (2) increase their number of apportioned representatives in Congress. Sorry, but US taxpayers are not interested in footing the bill for sanctuary states with large numbers of illegal immigrants and artificially inflated Congressional representation is flat out wrong. Taxation without representation is something Americans don’t do. Remember what happened the last time?
14
As an American Jew, every comment that derides or diminishes "non-citizens" fills me with dread. 'And you shall not wrong a stranger, neither shall you oppress them; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.' [Exodus 22:21] Jesus was crucified as a non-citizen of Jerusalem (outsiders were banned during Passover). Look into your heart and realize how it wounds you inside to think this way. For we are all descendant of non-citizens. I reach out my hand to you and ask you to welcome a stranger.
6
What do they have to hide? Maybe the 11 million estimate is more like 25 or 30 million if you do work and count the illegal aliens. If that came out as an official number there could be a popular push back and calls for border security. This way another 10 years will go by and by 2030 the number is going to be 40-50.
Different ball game if facts on the ground give you 50 million people to convert into voters.
7
Hopefully the southern states who may not be willing to admit that they have an illegal population scare those folks into not answering their door or any census questions either thru the mail or in person. Then they will get the representation they deserve
1
N.B.: "...Citizen and Non-Citizen... any and all records collected by a (Federal Government Agency.)”
For any data provided by law-abiding citizens who trusted in reasonable privacy; such privacy is hereby and irrevocably terminated.
1
Do people not understand that undercounting immigrants (or whomever) in your community will hurt EVERYONE in the community? If a community gets less representation, less investment in infrastructure, hospitals and businesses, do you think that will somehow only punish illegal immigrants? Wake up. Or only liberals. It also will affect every Trump voter from places like Ellensburg, WA to Houston TX. Wake up.
5
Egad. It seems very few of the commenters took that Civics class back when. Census confusion.
2
Citizenship question aside...With Big Tech & my phone collecting all the minutia of my life...I’m not crazy about revealing any additional data points of my existence to another opaque institution like the Federal Government...
Google already has this info aggregated and could email it to the Feds... It ain’t 1965...
3
I’m sure they’re proud of the surge in gang activity in their states.
8
A miscount would indeed be devastating... for sanctuary states. For the rest of us -- legal citizens who don't live in the NW or NE -- not so much.
8
@Chris
An undercount affects all who live in the community. Not just the those here illegally. Its sort of like punishing a whole community - Trump supporters and all - just because some undocumented people live there. Think that no conservatives live in San Francisco? Think again.
1
@Chris you do realize that there are more than ten illegal aliens using the roads in Florida as well as picking the oranges and doing the jobs you’d never even consider right?
The irony in Trump's executive order is that he is ordering what he already asked and what the Census Bureau has already made ready for the Secretary. They already used other data sources to combine together to answer the citizenship question they wanted.
If this doesn't make a total sham of the Supreme Court case, I don't know what does. The answer is already there by other means, but just not yet accessed until the Census question was decided upon. Literally everything about this case was a lie; the reasoning (pre-textual), the testimony (lying to the Justices), and the means (already collected).
So, what else are we being completely lied to about of importance?
7
@historyRepeated
"So, what else are we being completely lied to about of importance?"
With this administration, absolutely everything. As the old saying goes: if their lips are moving, they're lying.
It is a sad day in America when we can't trust s SINGLE thing the administration says. And we can't.
Well said. Nobody can attest that a true democracy is a 'passive sport'. It requires participation; let those able to speak truth to power do so, in the name of those that can't or won't.
1
To think we were a forward looking country that knew the importance of metrics by taking an accurate census to plan ahead for our well being. The politics have taken over the reasoning that made us great.
8
As a Canadian I am impressed by the on the ground work Americans are doing to counter all the tragic political chaos going on in the USA at this time. Crossing my fingers everyone motivates and mobilizes down there to ensure the guard is changed.
24
@charlotte,
Thank you for your kind words, but Trump's Supreme Court has just ruled that political gerrymandering is Constitutional. This one ruling alone will keep our national government under Republican control for many years, if not decades. And one Democratic president will not be able to undo any of this.
5
Everyone gets counted. The communities that benefit the most from the census, the downtrodden, the poor, are those who are often the hardest to count (as this piece points out). While I may not agree with all of my governor’s politics (Gavin Newsom strikes me as an opportunist on occasion) I applaud this effort. We are all Americans regardless of citizenship, something my immigrant parents knew even before they were naturalized. The census should reflect that fact, and be protected against thinly-veiled attacks on our democracy.
8
Seems the best way is to use face-recognition software coupled with GPS, indicating where the questions on the census were filled out. Maybe a group picture of the household, too. Add a cohort or two of citizens walking around taking the actual head-count as the Romans did and it will be about as accurate as it can be given the inherent limitation of any census count. House Democrats ought to be happy with that--lots of public weal money coming their way post-2020?
1
@Alice's Restaurant
And shall we all be required to be at home when these "citizen cohorts" come knocking? Or only the "suspect" families?
Frankly, it has echoes of the 1930's to me. No thank you. I'll fill out my census in a coffee shop away from home. If you don't like the answers, come get me in 70 years after the results are made public.
9
California, Oregon and Washington? Think these states need to focus on homelessness and a zillion other issues before the census. These states get caught up in so many issues using valuable financial resources, man power, yet remain in a pitiful state at the end of the day.
15
I believe you just stated the exact reasons why the census is so important to these Governors. Without the metrics for those issues you describe, there's no road map to help resolve them.
12
@Duomo Calmo Since they, with NY, NJ, MA, CT and IL pay all the bills, they get to get caught up in things.
3
So the left does a chicken little, the sky is falling, because the President wants a citizenship question on the census. Now they do a double take claiming that there is no threat like they claimed.
"These committees will work with local and state government leaders, communities of color, indigenous tribes and businesses to convey the message that it’s safe to take part"
7
As a California resident, I deeply appreciate everything the governors and legislatures of the three western coastal states are doing to encourage all residents to participate in the census. Thank you!
60
This is exactly right, making sure everyone is counted, but these efforts should be routinely undertaken by states no matter what particular demographic questions the census form contains. Such has always been the purest type of self-interest for each state and its residents. There's nothing enlightened or heroic or resistance-like about any of this. The Census Bureau itself should allocate funds to educate the public about the importance of the decennial enumeration as well as the strict privacy and publication laws so that no one will be uneasy about answering any of the questions. In any case, under the current circumstances, I don't doubt that the statisticians at the DOC can model the data to get a pretty good idea of how many citizens are resident in the country.
2
“...Businesses use census data to make $4 trillion in annual private investment decisions. And the information helps them decide where to build, invest in other businesses and what to sell to whom...
“...Utility companies use it to influence where they add infrastructure and invest in new technology...
Yeah, right...
PG&E just an absolute paragon of 21st century grid infrastructure...
CAHSR just rolling out track to where all the people are...
2
What is the point of being a sanctuary state, of going out of your way to attract illegal "immigrants", if you can't be assured that all will be counted and money and representation in the Federal government meted out accordingly?
14
Given all the negative repercussions over this hateful administration’s efforts to harm blue states over the census-every legal blue state resident needs to double count themselves to prevent an undercount-that will fix 45!!
11
I fear the harm has already been done-given the ICE raids and the horrific concentration camps for children, people of color living at the margins of society, can’t afford to trust the government, even a census that’s supposed to help them! I can’t blame them!!
7
Its childish to not ask if someone is here illegally. President Obama is the one who took the citizen question off the census but the media isn't reporting that only that Trump wants it on. So contrived and misleading this MSM.
9
@P McGrath The last time a citizenship question was on the census, Truman was president.
26
@P McGrath You are quite wrong. Here are a couple of facts:
The last time a citizenship question was among the census questions for all U.S. households was in 1950. That form asked where each person was born and in a follow-up question asked, "If foreign born — Is he naturalized?"
In 1960, there was no such question about citizenship, only about place of birth.
Sarah Sanders said that in 2010 the citizenship question was removed. In fact, there was no long form that year — it had been replaced by the annual American Community Survey. The decennial census form asked just 10 questions.
And, lastly: But if the 2020 census form does ultimately ask about citizenship status, it will be the first time the U.S. census has directly asked for the citizenship status of every person living in every household.
This was from a National Public Radio fact checking document. But wait.... I forgot it's fake news, isn't it. NOPE
11
@P McGrath Others have already pointed out the obvious factual error in your comment, namely that the citizen question was not removed by President Obama and has been off the census for almost seventy years. I wonder, though, if you were truly, and indolently, ignorant of the facts of the matter or if, a la President Trump, you simply lied.
12
Canada asks for citizenship status in the census. But the purpose of the question is to deliver, in those communities with non or new citizens, important healthcare, education (eg, English as a second language), and other services. I am not sure your President in searching out the whereabouts of these people has in mind service delivery to those identified.
20
@Brian
Canada has been pretty successful in deterring illegal immigrants from settling there. In comparison with the United States, Canada has next-to-no illegal immigrants. This means that almost all of Canada's non-citizens are legal residents.
One way that Canada has been able to deter illegal immigration is the "Safe Third Country" pact it signed with the U.S. This pact says that a migrant who is seeking asylum must request it in the first safe country they enter - either the U.S. or Canada. Since poor, undereducated Mexicans and Central Americans enter the U.S. before they could get to Canada, they must apply here first.
A couple of years ago, some migrants realized that the pact only applied to those who crossed from the U.S. to Canada through a formal gateway. They decided to cross in between gateways. Canadians have been so unhappy that their government has to process these migrants' claims for asylum that Trudeau has make it a priority to quickly deport anyone whose claim is denied.
His party has also introduced legislation that would automatically deny asylum to anyone whose request has been already been denied by the U.S.
Since Canada has so few illegal migrants, Brian, you may not understand why many Americans would like to know how many illegal migrants are living here, and if those states who welcome them should be rewarded with extra seats in Congress.
4
The citizenship question would be a non-issue if Democrats weren't representing areas with large, ILLEGAL immigrant populations. They're all supportive of sanctuary cities so they should deal with the consequences.
I really don't understand why any law-abiding citizen (whether born here or legally immigrated) or permanent resident would have an issue answering such a basic question.
I'm a brown, New York born citizen of legal immigrants...I know all the social justice warriors in this comment section are waiting to attack my response.
All brown people don't think alike.
17
@KB It's all about the INTENT of the question. The intent of the question is not to help but to harm, sow fear and impact elections. Here we depend on hard working immigrants who pay taxes with their purchases and do what they can to live in peace. The vast majority of immigrants ARE law abiding citizens, who boost local economies.
8
@Leah Reitz, intent should be irrelevant. Either it is a reasonable piece of information to collect or it is not.
2
@KB
"I really don't understand why any law-abiding citizen (whether born here or legally immigrated) or permanent resident would have an issue answering such a basic question."
Here's a clue... Trump started his campaign by saying: "They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists." He slandered all Mexicans, all Latinos and all immigrants right from the get go. He led the racist birther movement against one of America's greatest presidents. He's unqualified, disregards the rule of law, he's mean-spirited and he's torturing children in cages at the border.
Get it now?! No. I'm sure you don't.
10
How things have changed - from counting heads to collect taxes to counting heads to distribute taxes. The citizen question was just as important then as it is now.
In Luke 2.1-5 we read that Caesar Augustus decreed that the Roman Empire should be taxed and that everyone had to return to his own city to pay taxes.
3
@Samuel Tyuluman
Back then, you didn't have to be a citizen or "legal resident" to live in the Empire. There was no such concept. Nor was it the case when our own nation was founded.
The only thing the Constitution states explicitly is that all persons must be counted for the apportionment of representation. Not citizens. Not legal residents. Persons. Anything that hinders the accuracy of that count, therefore, is Unconstitutional.
Laws and policies change to fit the times. In the past, a citizenship question on the census could be included without impacting the stated purpose of the census. That's no longer the case. Accept it, or amend the Constitution.
26
@Samuel Tyuluman The census story in Luke does get Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem, the prophesied birthplace of the Messiah, for Jesus's birth. But there is no historical corroboration from non-Biblical sources for such a decree. Imagine the displacement it would cause. The economy would grind to something approaching a virtual halt. In any case, did Caesar Augustus mandate a citizenship question?
3
Republicans trumpet their "strict construction" of the Constitution yet conveniently ignore the requirement that the census count "the whole number of persons in each state." Persons -- not citizens, not Republicans, not someone's definition of "real Americans." Persons.
71
@Cal Prof, that is an irrelevant objection. Asking about citizenship doesn’t mean not counting noncitizens.
3
@Z97 The effect of asking the question will be to produce an undercount. So asking about citizenship will mean not counting non-citizens. We will not know the "whole number of persons." Whole = all.
11
@Cal Prof
That is the effect that has been suggested by the Census Bureau based on anecdotal evidence. It's not a given.
True, it will likely occur in this census but not because it's a given so much as it's because of the Trump crackdown on immigrants.
Trump's abhorrent policies and procedures has made illegal AND legal immigrants fearful. I don't believe the "effect" you speak of would necessarily occur under normal times.
PS we've never known the "whole" or "all" number of persons and never will.
1
Wait, Republicans want fair representation, which is the reason for wanting the question? O.k. let's agree to change our laws so that California gets more than 2 Senators, the same as, say, Wyoming, so that the good people of CA get fair representation when the Senate votes for funding or other measures. And let's get rid of the Electoral College because it results in a President with fewer votes than his opponent; that also is not fair because it does not fairly represent the headcount. Oh, we can't change those because of the Constitution? (Of course, we can change those, but not an easy task ....) Same reason here because the Constitution counts, for the express purpose of the census, not "citizens," but "persons." And by the way, a lot of things were done differently in 1950 and before; that is not a good reason to do it again.
44
@MTHouston
Music to my ears!
The US has a very bad Constitution. We need a better one. One that doesn't embrace slavery, racism and discrimination against minorities and women and one that insures DEMOCRACY -- something the US has always claimed, but falsely. The US has never been a democracy, but now under Trump and an ethically repugnant Republican Party it's less democratic than ever.
4
@NY Times Fan
I would have to disagree. Our Constitution has been amended with only 27 amendments (only 25 of which are active, as one Amendment was used to cancel out another), in over 220 years. Italy’s Constitution is just over 60 years old and has been amended 15 times. Germany’s Constitution has 145 Articles (at about 70 pages in smallish print), ours has just 7, with an additional 27 amendments that count as articles.
All in all, it works pretty well, because it was written not to be exhaustive, with every detail. It was also designed to not be amended often. The reason for the two Senators made sense, so that big states couldn’t run roughshod over small ones). The Electoral College is a outdated, but was put there because most voters (men) were not educated enough (a low percentage of men had even fifth grade education at the time) and the founders feared that a demagogue could take power. The irony is that the EC has led to a demagogue for our current president.
1
Why is the assumption that these folks are all in blue states and blue districts?
Every agricultural state and district has a significant population and they might be even more negatively impacted by not being included in the count.
Image a large farm in red Kansas with a white, US citizen family of 6. Odds are they employ a multiple of that in undocumented workers who are otherwise year round residents.
22
@Brad
Trump abandons his support for businesses and farmers in many ways (tariffs for example) but often it's because he allows his contempt for Brown and Black people to trump his support for business owners and farmers.
The Republican Party has stoked anger and resentment among its base for decades. It helped get Republicans elected. But nobody anticipated that his anger and resentment would get out of control to the extent it has. Now the Republican Party has a monster it can't control (its base) and there's nothing they can do about it except to become the corrupt, self-serving, treasonous party that its angry base wants it to be.
7
this is written for someone with a 6th grade education at most, but it does point out the corruption in California regarding how much tax money is being spent to generate a count of non-citizens. We all know the real motivation why these democratic governors seek a count both citizens and non-citizens - it assists in supporting their own vote directly and indirectly. California has the highest state income tax rate that contributes to funding and and generating self-support for its democratic politicians
12
Trump will decide how the census is conducted. In 2929 he will decide who can vote and who will count the votes (provided there is no "national emergency" to cancel the election.
2
This is one of those moments that make me proud to be a native Oregonian, and thankful for my neighbors to the north and south! #BestCoast
118
Well done, West Coast governors!
It appears that while the President has finally decided not to pursue the citizenship question in the 2020 census, trust & faith in the purpose and function of the census needs to be restored, especially for non-citizens.
The census is a powerful tool. It helps our country operate in a way that allows all facets of federal and state agencies & government best serve its inhabitants.
We must all participate fully in the census, and try to help and reassure those non-citizens that their participation is as vital as that of citizens.
33
It is imperative that everyone who receives a Census form fill it out and return it. Unless they do, there will be a huge undercount of people living in the U.S., which will further suppress Democratic representation in Congress and negatively impact federal funding of programs that help working families and the poor.
Democratic candidates for president need to hit this issue hard and assure non-citizens that filling out the Census form does not put them in jeopardy.
18
I'm glad to see the governors of California, Washington and Oregon join the fight against Trump's racist efforts to not count all the people living in their states.
The illiberal types (i.e., Southern politicians) wanted to count slaves when it benefitted them politically; but now their political descendants wish to limit the count of people residing in the United States and for the same reason — political power.
Other good Americans need to join these governors in their fight for a full counting of all people residing in the United States. Count me in.
102
Thank you, Governors. The harm this "President" inflicts on democracy may be irreparable, but at least we'll go down fighting.
39
I'm so glad these states are making an effort to overcome the probably undercounting from the fear already stirred up by Trump's threat to use the census as a way to get at non-citizens. It's likely there still will be massive undercounting that will harm these states over the next decade, which is what Trump wants. But hopefully, it will not be as bad as he hopes.
23
You will be happy to note that Trump has decided, now that he has corrupted next years census beyond repair, to lie to the American people using "existing federal records". His next move, no doubt, will be to corrupt all "existing federal records".
19
Our nice neighbor to the North, Canada, of which Washington State shares a border, has managed to ask "the" question every single time since 1901 with nary a problem. So what's the big fuss all about?
14
@NorthXNW: The conditions in the two countries are quite different. First, our nice neighbor to the north has approximately the same land area as the U.S. with about 1/9 of the people. The Canadian population is aging, with seniors now outnumbering children. Immigrants are needed to keep the economy afloat. Traditionally, our neighbor to the north has welcomed refugees and asylum seekers.
There is likely much more fear of deportation in the U.S., which is not unfounded given the Obama administration's actions and the rhetoric of our current fearless leader. Justin Trudeau went to the Toronto airport to welcome refugees from Syria. It is only recently that strident anti-undocumented speech has gained traction in Canada.
If one wants a more accurate Census count in the U.S., it is better not to ask about citizenship. If one wants to reduce numbers of Census respondents in states that are comparatively open to immigrants, generally the more liberal leaning states, ask away. That seems pretty straightforward, doesn't it?
https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/what-the-census-tells-us-about-canadas-aging-population/
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/171025/dq171025b-eng.htm
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/canadas-immigration-policy
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/world/canada/quebec-immigrants-haitians.html
4
@NorthXNW
More than anything, right now, the 'big fuss' is about Trump ignoring the Supreme Court. That is pretty big.
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@NorthXNW It about the Dems changing the nation's landscape and redefining what constitutes a citizen.
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Three cheers for the Left Coast. CA, OR, and WA are always in the forefront fighting this abhorrent Administration.
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67% of voters say the census should be able to ask whether people living in the U.S. are citizens, according to a new Harvard CAPS/Harris Poll. The poll found that the inclusion of the question was supported among members of both parties, with 88% of Repubs & 52% of Dems supporting its inclusion. 63% of independents say they support the question being on the census. We've been told for decades that there are 11 million illegal immigrants in the US, then magically the number jumps to 20 million. I've seen estimates as high as 30 million. Isn't it about time to try & get an actual count? No doubt the GOP has a long-range agenda here. Democrats oppose a citizenship question for one reason, power. If it does dissuade illegal immigrants from being counted, it will reduce the number of Representatives they receive for the House. The more representatives that are in the House, the more power they have as well as more Federal funds. At real issue here is should Federal money & House representation be determined by how many illegal immigrants you have in your state? Many Americans would say absolutely not. The GOP feels that illegal immigrants should not be counted when congressional representation is calculated. If this occurs then western blue states would get serious about immigration reform so the thinking goes. It's fair to ask why are we permitting non-citizens & illegal immigrants who don't vote to alter the makeup of Congress? Is this why Dems favor sanctuary cities?
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@Bill Brown
"Democrats oppose a citizenship question for one reason, power. If it does dissuade illegal immigrants from being counted, it will reduce the number of Representatives they receive for the House."
That may be your opinion, but it is not backed up by evidence, whereas there is substantial evidence that the Republicans support the citizenship question specifically because it would give them more power.
Plus, the Constitution directs the government to count ALL residents. There is clear evidence that adding the question will result in a substantial undercount. If you don't want to count immigrants, then amend the Constitution.
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@Bill Brown The Constitution doesn't say "only citizens." Following the Constitution, not the suggestions of people in a single poll, is what a government of laws, not of men, means.
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@Bill Brown
The proposed question does NOT ADDRESS LEGAL STATUS. There are millions of legal non citizens here. We accept approx 1 million immigrants per year for many years - the recent ones, too.
While the GOP knows they could not get "Are you here legally" question on census, they will group all non-citizens as "bad" and try to intimidate being counted. And you don't have to wonder why the GOP doesn't want non-documented people counted with their prejudice against them.
Also, do you know that the US Census Bureau does other smaller censuses between the 10 yr major census that aims to accurately estimate the amount of non-documented residents? Sampling of the whole. Yes, we should know how many non-documented people are here, but this question will not answer it.
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I'm pretty far out there on the left wing, but I don't see why non-citizens should be represented in congress, which is what effectively happens if non-citizens are included in the census numbers that determine how many representatives each state gets.
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@Green Tea
Because the language of the Constitution says that the census counts residents, not citizens. That is really all the reason that we need.
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@Green Tea, They are not represented in Congress, they are counted for infrastructure, emergency and record keeping purposes. Here in Florida, Disney counts everyone that enters their parks for similar reasons.
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@Green Tea
Diplomats, students, business people working here,
and all green card holders still need to be counted-to plan for police, firemen, schools, hospitals, etc. Some of those people pay taxes and deserve services. They cannot vote but they still have to be counted for practical reasons if nothing else.
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