I was hoping they’d keep him. Invite the family.
9
Good. Lock him up!
2
There is a bright side to this! It proves “Competitive Authoritarianism” does not work and is dangerous as history proved that few times already. Business dis-agreements turn into violence when 2 authoritarian regime doing business together do not agree. The republican abandoned their democratic believes and they are adopting “Competitive Authoritarianism” more boldly every single day. Vote all republicans out, they are becoming a decease that needs to be eradicated.
3
I'm a naturalized US citizen born in Taiwan. I stayed at the Grand Hotel Beijing, next to the Forbidden city. I'm no diplomat or important CEO, just an American tourist. Yet, when I returned to the states, I noticed my cell phone was acting 'sticky.' Then, when I tried to post a pro-Taiwan comment on Financial Times, my comments began to self-delete in real time. At first, I wasn't comprehending what was going on then realized that, sometime during my stay in Beijing, someone had installed spyware on my phone. It took me multiple frantic attempts at typing fast enough to beat the person on the other end who was intent on preventing me from expressing my opinions. I was finally able to post my comment. I wrote to the cyber security department of Financial Times to report the incident then submerged my cell - and laptop - in water to destroy the vectors of spyware and threw both in the trash. Upon hindsight, I should have given them to the FBI but regretfully I did not think to do so at the time. My suggestion, should anyone in their right mind still have the wayward desire to visit China, is to leave their electronics at home to prevent Chinese nationals from further infecting your friends' software via your own after returning to the US. Better yet, divest your tourist dollars from China completely and visit a country holding standards reflecting those of the free world.
370
@Terri Cheng
Good advice but not everyone in the U.S. can afford a foreign vacation.
13
@Terri Cheng Wow, thank you for sharing such a powerful personal anecdote. We are now experiencing in our country a nationalistic creep that will make us more resemble China than the democracy that our brilliant forefathers framed out. Frightening.
57
@Kathy McAdam Hahn While the recent rise of nationalism in Western Europe and the US may be disconcerting, it is nothing even close to as bad as it is in countries like China. At least you and I can criticize this nationalist rise without fear of incrimination for both you and your extended family as well as the public shame on social media that follows from that.
30
“I believe we are seeing the worst environment since the Cultural Revolution,” he added, “in terms of the extent to which people are under surveillance and control, and the extent to which people are punished.”
Sometimes, in reading a piece like this,
I get confused and think that the above quote is referring to the current Democratic Party political environment, in which all must bow before identity politics, wokeness, and intersectionality, from college campuses to buying a sneaker, or their livelihoods might be threatened on Twitter or related social media platform, or be roughed up by "antifa" or spit on while dining out:
Anyway, just in case, permits me to make my profession:
"I do believe with perfect faith that the US should discard all laws at the Southern border, and not simply wave in any and all, but give them free health care, a guaranteed wage, free child care, social security, free college, exempt them from reparations, and ICE must be ended along with DHS, and replaced with a committee of progressives who will judge the "cultural correctness" of the individuals and whether they will become productive voters for the correct political party and values."
9
Isn’t clear the right wing agitators (Koch brothers) never rest. After toppling the Socialist Government in Brazil, now with the right wing governing Brazil, they must be thrilled. Obviously they are involved in China and attempting to destabilize that country. The Koch brothers have been dumping millions and hundreds of millions of dollars around the world creating “grassroots” organizations to destroy what they don’t like or support, in the process changing everything in their favor.
36
It’s a terrible confession to make, but I felt some guilty pleasure upon reading that a Koch industry executive faced a bit of harassment in China. Industries, abetted by our government, have been and continue to be happy to sell out American workers, and America itself, to the lowest bidder. Just maybe some of them will be forced to think twice about this strategy.
107
I feel pleasure about this, and it ain't ONE BIT guilty!
Buy American, not Republican.
31
Turn about is fair play. Perhaps these executives should open their check books to progressive candidates and encourage American regime change in 2020?
160
Now China retaliates against the US and Trump’s failed trade war by detaining US citizens. Two observations: 1) couldn’t happen to a better company and 2) are we enjoying all this winning yet?
90
@Summer Smith
Are we sure they are US citizens? If they don’t have papers when they return they should be rounded up and sent to a US detention camp until we can prove their innocence.
5
It is simple.
Don't go to China as a business person or tourist.
We have thousands of Chinese citizens in this country doing business or going to university. Many of the students are the children of the privileged class in China. Perhaps some of them should not be allowed to return to China until we can reach an understanding with China that this is not how a responsible member of the international community operates.
Believe it or not, this is coming from a liberal.
7
Kudos to the NYT for publishing this story -- a stark reminder to those Americans who are taken in by the glitz and glamour of some of China's larger cities -- that China remains a totalitarian state and is NOT like the United States in any way, shape or form.
The tactics described in this article are those of a weak, impotent state.
And if you think that things cannot get any worse for the American business community in China, don't forget that the US had to evacuate some of its diplomats from the US consulate in Guangzhou last summer because China was beaming radiation waves at them (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/06/world/asia/china-guangzhou-consulate-sonic-attack.html).
11
This is the inevitable (and weirdly just) result of American capitalism's infatuation with a Communist regime. And its insatiable desire to use sweatshop labor in a ruthless country willing, and able, to provide it.
Some Americans are gonna get caught in the crunch. Too bad. There is a lesson here: make a deal with the devil and the devil will get his due. Always.
8
American corporate interests sold America's soul in China, long ago, for profit and power. All for a dream China will never allow. Both political party's hands are all over this, but it is primarily the conservative's who believe in business interests before people. This is more than a little provable when one considers the last 100 years of American economic history. It is always the wealthy and powerful that bring down hegemonic powers. Consider Habsburg Spain, after them, the Dutch, followed by England, and now us. That's going on 500 years of history now and I would personally consider that what we call a track record. Why believe those who support the policies that have led us to this moment? It's garbage and it has done much, these past 40 years, to destroy the middle class and turn us into wage slaves, barely able to get by in many instances. Job well done, huh?
6
dont ride a tiger when you dont know how to get off alive.
- chinese proverb
4
@payutenyodagimas
A Paper Tiger, surely.
2
Who feels sorry for these companies who decided to ditch Americans and make all their products in China? Not me.
20
@Jacquie Not me either! No sympathy from me! I'm not an advocate of globalization anyhow!
@Jacquie Not me either! No sympathy from me! I'm the one advocating globalization anyhow!
Then stop buying products made in China and sold in the US. Let’s see how long you can last.
3
For China, Russia, Cambodia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, . . . an authoritarian government fits the historic mold of having a great leader for life. However, the leader wants smooth sailing and will get rid of opposition voices. Modern people prefer democracy where everyone has rights and liberties. China is a powerful county and does not want to become a democracy. They do not want to give their citizens equal rights. It is not good for land grabbing and freewheeling business. An economic fight is a reasonable way to get China to behave fairly. Businesses along with their executives are being used as bargaining chips in the trade war. Better a trade war than a real one. Without a breathtaking economy the Communist Party would like the plain thugs that they are. Trump knows how to play hardball with Xi and the Politburo.
6
@Jeff Stockwell
No, Trump is a bully. He knows how to stiff contractors, and take the nickels from the elderly when his casino is failing, but all of his tough talk is there to hide his insecurity. If his Daddy had not left him a fortune, he would not have one now.
That said, we need to confront China on many issues, but what Mr. Trump is doing now is just theater, it is what he knows.
6
An American businessman barred from leaving for days? This is nothing new. My husband, a mere engineer who works on production machinery, was sent to China by one of his employers more than a decade ago. He was told at that time that he had to spend at least three days "in country" before he would be allowed to leave. He fixed the machine in five minutes and spent the rest of the time sight-seeing.
5
It doesn't make me feel better that Ivanka has a seat at that table.
18
Please China, keep the Koch executives. Want some Exxon CEO's?
27
And, George Soros, as well.
2
Trump is either an idiot or an idealist, and I think he's being played by the CCP's Xi in regards to the trade 'war'
Make no mistake, there is no Chinese President such thing. Xi's official titles actually are General Secretary of CCP (Chinese Communist Party), Chairman of the Central Military Commission of China, and Chairman of Chinese Government. The title "President" is decoration being used by the CCP to cover it's hardcore totalitarianism.
8
Trump is being played by everyone. The Chinese, the North Koreans and everyone with a vested interest in having a know-nothing President.
8
Perhaps one day, the American people will realize that the rise of China is Divine Justice. Back in 2004, I wrote about the future rise of China and its humiliation of the U.S. and have since revised my book to include additional information. American foreign policy in the Middle East has finally met with its punishment, and the rise of China is exactly that. How do I know? It's in the Quran, embedded in symbolic language, the same language the rabbinic scholars used to foretell the future events that affected their people. When all the events in the prophecies began happening, one after the other, it became clear that the nation referred to in the Quran is China. Trump is the perfect person to antagonize China. When he won the election, I knew it was a Divine setup. For atheists, this is unimaginable, but watch what happens next. It won't be a nice ending.
2
@Margaret: When a person piques interest by citing general history matters from the Koran about historical events, without foretelling “what happens next,” one doubts the con. You were doing well until you departed your story line and claimed information that only insiders are privy to and will not relate. Maybe you are selling Middle Eastern dogma. Maybe you are right, but you convincingly promote doubt.
Is your comment a trailer for a forthcoming opera, “Xi Jinping in China after visiting the White House”?
The Times negotiating-table photograph could be captioned, Xi operatically tries to teach a class of foreigners. Hair dye and makeup all over the stage.
5
"...playing a small air violin for the Kochs and all American greedy execs who off-shored US jobs to China."
15
Was he wearing a Winnie the Pooh shirt?
Just another benefit of that Made in China label. I have no sympathies for any "US citizen" such as Koch Industries or any other US company, doing business with and in China.
As the old saying goes; you get what you pay for.
10
Warren Rothman’s book, Kafka in China, details what happened to him in Shanghai in 2008 as the result of an admission by a colleague to a large bribe allegedly paid by an iconic American company to Chinese officials. His travails included attempted murder, torture, black jails, and fraudulent incarceration in a Shanghai mental hospital, as reported in his book and in 2012 by Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Joel Brinkley in Politico and the San Francisco Chronicle. Dozens of individuals were involved in the plot and cover up.
6
China: Increasingly Orwellian - day by nightmarish day. But virtually any other US-president-to-be, will be better at effectively confronting this horrible authoritarian regime - by partnering with allies across the globe - and other sensible, cogent strategies - than the flailing, grandstanding, self-serving, self-defeating (for our own people) and ally-alienating Trump & Co.
5
China strikes me as such an 'odd' place...a country I have zero interest in visiting.
On the one hand, we (non-China natives) hear all the stories about the govt... how they monitor their citizens... arrest citizens who speak out...they block access to certain internet sites, etc. So on one hand it sounds very totalitarian.
Yet when I meet (in NYC) Chinese who were born in China, still have family in China, and who maintain strong ties to the country.... on the surface, they seem totally 'normal'....very American... open-minded, etc. Yet it always puzzles me as to how two such very different worlds can be reconciled, and co-exist, within such individuals from China, and who live in the US.
3
@Lisa Have you read 1984? Citizens of Oceania never second-guessed their lives if they're indoctrinated from birth. They don't miss what they never had. But ask them where they stand with Hong Kong protestors or with Tibet, Taiwan, Tiananmen, and I suspect some of them will display pro-Beijing feelings. Also I suspect lower-profile citizens with little influence or interest in politics who don't raise a ruckus routinely escapes the radar and carry on as normal. Out of a population of a billion, would they care if a million gets "disappeared"?
6
This enigma may be solved if you visited
2
@M. Paire Most of neutralized Chinese Americans I encountered in the States are either apathetic to Chinese poliitics or stand by CCP's agenda and advocate for their state policies over territories such as Xijiang, Tibet, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. A lot of these Chinese Americans are associated with privileged classes including senior party officials and rich business people in China, either children or relatives of those privileged Chinese. It's not surprising these Chinese Americans would take positions in line with the Chinese government's ideology and agenda.
2
Let us acknowledge that Jeffrey Epstein would have gotten the death penalty in China ten years ago, and probably not just for child rape. End of story, no more victims. They have given it there for selling poisoned infant formula.
Different concept of justice.
3
Absolutely. And if you demonstrate against the Chinese government or are part of an ethnic minority in the west and/or south of the country, you could also find yourself arrested, convicted and potentially even executed by that same judicial system.
4
@slangpdx That's rich. You don't think money and influence buys power in China? If that were true, Xi's relatives wouldn't have fortunes stashed away in the British Virgin Islands. Of course they must execute a minimum of bad apples for show. But many more low-salaried corrupt officials with rolexes driving expensive cars live happily unscathed. They befriend the right people.
2
Warren Rothman’s book, Kafka in China, details what happened to him in Shanghai in 2008 as the result of an admission by a colleague to a large bribe allegedly paid by an iconic American company to Chinese officials. His travails included attempted murder, torture, black jails, and fraudulent incarceration in a Shanghai mental hospital, as reported in his book and in 2012 by Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Joel Brinkley in Politico and the San Francisco Chronicle. Dozens of individuals were involved in the plot and cover up.
Warren Rothman’s Kafka in China is based on the true story of l committed against Rothman, an American lawyer living in Shanghai in 2008, as the result of an admission by a colleague to a large bribe allegedly paid by an iconic American company to Chinese officials. This tragic incident was reported in depth by Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Joel Brinkley in Politico and the San Francisco Chronicle.
1
It would be perfectly reasonable for the Chinese Government to mirror the U.S. in enacting anti-bribery legislation akin to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
China could, for example, ignore the U.S. First Amendment and define "bribery" to mean campaign contributions to U.S. officeholders after which the officeholder votes on anything that benefits the company that contributed, or whose executives contributed.
Unlike courts in the U.S., Chinese courts would not be required to make the idiotic assumption the U.S. Supreme Court imposes for bribery prosecutions here -- that the corrupt official has to be stupid enough to videotape him or herself offering a quo for a quid.
In that sense, China could help reform the U.S. campaign finance system.
It's time the U.S. got a taste of the extraterritorial jurisdiction the U.S. likes to impose on the rest of the world.
5
Good. It will definitely make executives think twice about outsourcing. And detaining some Koch Industries executives wouldn't bother me.
12
That's the biggest mistake they could have possible done. Their neighbor countries appreciate this unwise move.
1
China is not the same China as in 1900 after the devastating Boxer Rebellion. China was under the control of 8 foreign countries and forced China to be a semi-colony of the western world. It was John Hay, than secretary of state circulated an open door tp other countries and asked them to keep China a free country not to divide China under the control of western countries. This open door note saved China and China now become a stronger nation. Chinese people always remember John Hay not New York Times reporters. They better study more about Chinese history and the history of US-China diplomatic relations. Now China depends upon herself not just begging helps from western colonial powers anymore. Those good old days are gone. The ending of European colonial days and the fading of American influences in Asia Pacific. Is India going to dominate Asia? I am not so sure about this. India after more than 400 years of British colonial years it may take longer for India to put their acts together. But someday. Tibet will always be a problem for China and India. India would like to be a colonial herself. Not China.
1
@Tysons2019 And for all its progress it still cannot afford either its citizens or foreign visitors a basic Bill of Rights, including the right counsel, to be formally charged and not held incommunicado more or less indefinitely, etc. China has come a long way. It has a long way to go.
3
It's all about AI. Those who are first to develop AI will control all democracies. It will redefine the merits of a "superpower" nation.
3
@Louisxvii
AI? Passing the Turing test and acting like a fallible flawed human doesn’t seem like a strong point. I don’t think it will yield the results we expect.
And a binary system I don’t “believe” is capable of cognitive ability. We as humans are machines but not mathematical binary ones. Cognitive thought doesn’t truly rely on mathematical model expression alone.
Remember mathematics is a model of reality that represents it to the best of our knowledge. Mathematics though isn’t reality. It’s just the best model we currently have in symbolic form.
2
The comments here completely miss the point. And they miss the point because too many readers cannot think on their own, cannot think critically. Their hatred for any American (or anyone) that disagree with any of the far left policies is astounding. They would rather citizens rot in China if they are not far left, communist adhering lemmings.
China has no right to detain a businessman or anyone that commits no crime. This isn't about Koch Industries folks, this is about the gangsters that promote poaching, population expansion, and land ownership across the globe. This is about stealing proprietary information. This is about crimes against human beings.
22
@Ma
Funny to read "China has no right to".
When you deal with gangsters to make a little bit more profit then you get what you deserve. This is exactly about Koch Industries and the numerous US companies that decimated the US labor force so they could avoid those inconvenient items such as workers rights and environmental protections for a little bit more money.
Communist China and GOP have much in common.
3
@Ma
You posit excellent points as to why this current criminal cabal in charge of America is a threat to all of us.
4
@Ma point taken.
3
"Chinese officials see the American trade stance as a threat to their country’s economic future."
- means...-
If you prevent us from stealing your technology we cannot work with you.
17
This does not bode well for future relations...
2
Some of my best days were spent doing business in China. Today I wouldn't go on a sightseeing trip.
19
The Koch’s decades long lobbying and tireless attempts to privatize the US and establish a de facto oligarchy with a small coterie of billionaires ruling the nation would ultimately create a similar repressive regime to the one that their execs got a taste of in China.
32
@Mickey
Your insight is profound. That is what China has become, an oligarchy of rich guys, their wives, and their extended family.
5
Yeah, it wasn't a good idea to single out Huawei like that, and especially the founder's daughter. I think the Chinese government would have at least refrained from going after individual Americans if Trump didn't drop the gloves like that. It really ripped apart the facade of civility ("撕破臉").
I daresay there's also resentment against Chinese-born naturalized Americans whose prosperity relies on trade with China. The simplistic rationale is they're too good for Chinese citizenship but still make their riches off China.
Lastly, Americans may think of trade wars in terms of tariffs, quotas, and exchange rates. Those tools alone are pretty serious. Witness the collapse of Japan's economy in the early 1990's. But moreover, Chinese may think of trade wars in terms of the Opium Wars. Ironically, Hong Kong, widely accepted as a beacon of democracy by the West, was a result of the First Opium War. To China it's more likely a reminder of colonial humiliation.
9
@William Fang Nothing's black and white. That "colonial humiliation" benefitted millions of Chinese escaping starvation and persecution from the cultural revolution. Many more Chinese would have starved to death if it wasn't for British Hong Kong. Is colonialism in general bad? Yes. Is communist rule better?
"resentment against Chinese-born naturalized Americans whose prosperity relies on trade with China."
AKA hypocrites or opportunistic double-dippers. They also side with Beijing against pro-democracy Hong Kong protestors. Heaven forbid if they actually had to live/work/raise their children there, but oh they will proceed to hypocritically cheer on CCP's authoritarian policies. They're a pox on Chinese-American political asylees who experienced CCP's deadly lunacy during the cultural revolution first hand.
1
@William Fang You miss the main point of these episodes of drama between the US and China. It's not about numbers and the trade deficits, but more so about IP theft, industrial/military espionage, and national security. That's why Huawa exec's arrest and extradition is not only symbolic but inevitable. Trade war is just a trigger to publicize more profound conflicts between the two countries that have been brewing for many years since China joined WTO.
1
I was in China in Nov, 2018. I attended the Global Education Technology Conference in Beijing and traveled alone to Louyang to do some touristic stuff including a visit to the Shaolin Monastery and the Longman Grotto (huge Buddha sculptures). I was treated with respect and kindness all along the way, although I speak a little Chinese, it's hardly enough to be proficient, but I was still treated well.
Now, I don't know. Chinese are very proud of their historical antecedents and what they have managed to accomplish in 25 years in terms of building up their infrastructure and most notably the middle class.
Trump's threatening, racist, and inaccurate comments are taken very seriously by the Chinese. Honestly, after what Trump has done, I wouldn't be surprised if I encountered more animosity now.
Lastly, for those who have traveled to India as well as China...they might notice that their cell phones work in China but not in India. That's because the Chinese insisted on a technology transfer that would ensure the standards of both countries' tech would align and work. Would you call that "stealing" our trade secrets? Trump does. I don't. It's a practical necessity.
12
@Ronald J Kantor
You were treated good, as a visitor. In China minorities suffer, critics of the state suffer, and the environment suffers. We need Trump to fight the rich CEOs that run China, who would shape their heritage to fit their designs.
3
So Trump’s threats are taken seriously. Should we take seriously the scores of Chinese threats to nuke the US, destroy our country, kill our people? Does that make our actions more legitimate, like you seem to think it does for China?
If businesses were to shift from China they would not return to the US because of labor costs. The profit margin drives where big business gets it's labor. It would move to another cheap labor country. Why does Apple pay very little taxes here when there phones sell for 6 to 8 hundred more for a comparable android phone? For the amount we pay for a Apple phone why are they not assembled here? Profit. We caused this problem sending technical manufacturing information to Chinese factories. How darn they learn from our Colleges and Universities. Big business would like to employ these folks to but their brains to work for less then our citizens in some cases then then we could get them to work for us back in China. The only way China can complete with us is to build their own products, not ours. Look at the inside of almost anything we have, the label will read "made in China". We have only ourselves to blame.
6
Here's a headline from today's Wall St Journal proving that China isn't afraid to bully us:
"China to Sanction U.S. Companies for Arms Sales to Taiwan
Beijing says U.S. approval of $2.2 billion in military sales harms its national security"
Have we ever sanctioned China for selling arms to another country?
Apparently, the US is contemplating the same strategy against Turkey for buying Russian missile systems. If this trend continues, international trade will be constrained by a thicket of sanctions and countersanctions.
9
@Tamza It isn't a significant relationship with the arrest of the Huawei Executive. China state-run government is using this tactic as a form of retaliation against U.S. Trump Administration about the imposed tariffs. I thought it was reported that Mr. Trump has decided to leave the tariffs at 10% and agreed not to imposed a 25% in two months from here. Furthermore, it was reported that the two leaders would resume talks. So, I don't understand why China state-run government is detaining and harassing business people who have connection with the China business marketplace...
@Alonia L Anderson All governments are "state-run" lol.
2
Please report both sides of this ugliness. The reverse is also occurring. Chinese nationals we know are being harassed in US customs and immigration when returning to the US on legitimate business.
12
@Ken Krechmer it’s one thing to have a few questions thrown at you by a US CBP agent and another to be detained in your hotel in China. I’ve never heard of anything sinister happening to Chinese business people in the US and have close ties to Chinese business owners with large assets here in US.
5
Thugs being thugs, nothing should surprise us over there. If you are shocked by any of this you have no understanding for how totalitarianism works and what is going on over there. They are stealing their way into economic power. If I were doing business over there, I would be looking for a new country for manufacturing and production ASAP.
14
@Brendan Ward... Thank you. I couldn't agree with you more!!!
4
The Chinese are as stupid as the Americans. Unfortunately, we can't let this sort of obnoxious behavior become the new normal. US executives need to figure out how to rebuild their global supply chains so as not to leave them vulnerable to being taken hostage by authoritarian regimes that get into disputes with the US. Frankly, I don't know why they're not looking more closely at a country like Brazil. However flawed, it remains a constitutional democracy and there are no geo-political issues that threaten the relationship. And the cost of labor is relatively low. Maybe I'm missing something here but we ought to concentrate on cultivating deeper, mutually beneficial ties with Brazil and the rest of Latin America.
I don't wish for war with China but let's recognize that we're destined to be bitter rivals. Let's not wait until things go from bad to worse.
8
@del Considering how much scandals like Operation Car Wash overshadowed the recent Brazilian election, the stability of Brazil's government may continue to remain shaky over the next decade. While it takes torture and murder to accomplish it, up until now China has been able to impress investors with the country's stability
2
@del
"Let's not wait until things go from bad to worse."
Everything trump does makes things worse, especially with all his silly, empty threats.
1
Xi is a “I love communist capitalistic China.”So it’s over. Time to pack it up and find new markets. Xi wants his system to win. He’s from a family with roots in the revolution and spent several years re-education in the cultural revolution. The man is from the moon as far as America is concerned. So it’s time to bow out put the screws on before they become overly powerful. Remember he has got to keep a very large middle class happy. I’m sure he has his detractors in China. Don’t play his game and he’s out in five years.
15
Harass the Kochs all China wants, and can. It's fine with me. Koch people are complicit with the demise of our democracy. I don't care about any of them, since they don't care about what they are doing, and what policies they supporting, and what politicians they are helping to buy. The "Caligula Administration" (see elsewhere in this edition) is harassing people all over this country--migrants, women, LBGT, the poor, American citizens, anybody whose skin is brown.
26
@ChesBay
You have to take the bad with the good. We need Trump to fight at the international level, which is very vicious. However, Trump is too rough for the domestic level, but "you can't have everything."
I knew Trump would make us great again, like we were before the White Europeans came here.
4
I know everyone is focused on Russian meddling in the most recent election, but Chinese interference occurred during the mid-late 90's during the Clinton Administration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_campaign_finance_controversy
Feel free to read up on it. They were not after the Presidency, they were after influencing Congress where once you are elected its basically a lifetime position.
A bipartisan committee (yes that once existed) found that it had occurred. I suppose memory is fleeting, but why do they get a free pass?
11
I'm guessing that resulted in a very lengthy call from one of the Koch brothers to the oval office, where President Trump didn't do a lot of talking...
8
How does this compare with the arrest of the Huawei exec in Canada at behest of US?
7
@Tamza exactly ! Why is anybody surprised something like this happens in China ?
5
@Tamza, there was due process and an extradition treaty. An enormous difference!
4
@Tamza The Koch exec was just doing his reportedly legal job whereas Meng Wanzhou's arrest in Canada was over actual crimes by trading with Iran despite US sanctions.
4
That theoretically enlightened New York Times readers gleefully approve of China's abuse of fellow humans -- let alone fellow citizens -- is utterly nauseating. Many of the comments to this article are not much different from what one reads on right leaning websites, albeit about different groups of people.
13
This is China's way of thumbing their nose at all of Trump's empty threats. He acts like some fire-breathing dragon that's supposed to bring his opponent to their knees. In reality Trump is just a puddle pirate with a little plastic boat, wearing a newspaper hat, and waving a wooden sword. How sad for America.
11
@T3D
Trump has China on the ropes. He knows that economic blows are what will bring the Chinese to the negotiating table.
In high school I took a class called"Problems of Democracy". If we had only known! Si is perhaps a bit better than Trump.
2
I can't stand Trump and hope he gets voted out of office by the "biglyest" margin in history. Not gonna happen, but one can hope. Anyway, one thing I agree on is that China is a problem. Economically and militarily. China is the enemy and needs to be treated as such. Business should flee there as fast as possible. If Americans weren't so greedy, we would find a way to bring back some of the manufacturing jobs. We need to be willing to pay more for products, so we can pay more to our own citizens. Oh, wait. That's called inflation. Never mind.
11
Welcome to Cold War II. This one is not (yet) about militarism and territory, it's about economics and global market share. The underlying tensions have been there for a while. Let's give Trump credit for shining a bright light on China's market manipulations and protectionism, but his abrupt escalation is now having chilling effects.
6
“the Trump administration is encouraging companies to shift their supply chains away from China. The administration has also threatened to withhold crucial American technology from some of China’s most successful companies”. Why not? There is the downside of Americans and American industry paying the cost of this venture. The Chinese are known pirates of our technology and think nothing of it. The game is complicated certainly for everyone to keep the stakes reasonable for us and not for China. China’ activities demand that we play by the same rules or better than the Chinese to protect our interests and even grow them at China’s expense. Personally despising China and Chinese tactics is the only way to fly.
5
This is clearly a problem, but it is very hard to feel sympathy for someone employed by Koch Industries.
22
For the Koch executive, his detainment is quite fitting. Now only if one of the the Walton heirs would go over for a visit.
22
Mr Trump is right to aggressively address trade issues with China, especially when it comes to pirating and intellectual property theft.
His mistake is that, like in other negotiations, he starts by taking punitive action and then trying to trade relief from his own actions for concessions.
It’s transparent and ugly and is as likely to result in retaliation to balance the negotiations as it is to result in concessions as this article reveals.
5
Hey, these are businesses that voted for Trump and still support him. After all he gave them a 21% tax cut. They may whine but they get what they deserve!
11
I thought trade wars were good, and easy to win. Who knew?
14
Somebody tell Ivanka. I'm sure she'll straighten the whole thing out.
23
I think all of this is a reflection of Trump's terrible negotiating skills. Trump has no respect for anyone and certainly has no respect for other cultures, such as the need to save "face" in China. The result of Trump's bullying, in many cases, has been for other countries to harden their stance and become more belligerent. Is there really any possibility in this world that Iran is going to come to the negotiating table with Trump? No. Is China simply going to roll over and play dead when they are bullied and put into a position of being termed "losers" and "wimps"? No. So while China needs to be confronted, the person doing the confrontation should be informed, diplomatic, tough and rational. Trump is tough, I'll give him that, but he has none of the other necessary qualities.
8
The quote the 3rd wife and 1st model " I don't care do you?" as if the livelihood of the executive class matters to me at all. Let them eat each other and their precious economy with it.
12
One of the worst ideas ever was giving China most favored nation trading status and then admission to the WTO, it all started in the first Bush Administration. The pursuit of profits at any cost.
19
Of course these business people will blame China and not Trump even though it was ans still is Trump who is causing all the trouble with China to gain more votes in the upcoming election.
8
They should blame China, China detained them - there is absolutely zero excuse for this, except China likes to harass and intimidate it was a classic tactic of East Germany as well.....
6
@Jeff
Siding with china over Trump is like siding with Putin over Clinton. Don't do it.
4
Unlike what I usually read in the NYT, I find that this article is mostly based on second-hand information. Not the best reporting that I have seen here.
2
@JP De Montigny
If sources are intimidated and China won't respond, how would you suggest that such an important topic be covered?
15
China's pressure on Hong Kong to pass the higly contentious extradition bill is exactly what Hong Kong people have been worrying and vehemently protesting in the past few months. This bill, although now suspended, if passed in the future, could mean that not only people living in Hong Kong, but visitors and foreign enterpreneurs passing through the territory either long-term or short-term could be extradited to China for criminal investigation. The fears are real according to this article. We have no trust of the judicial system in China which generally is not transparent and charges are often vague. Perhaps protests by foreign authorities would help China understand the negative repercussions of this type of policy.
8
The Koch name is so closely tied to conservative politics, it may as well be a subdivision of the GOP. So, I'm not surprised one of their people was detained. Karma ? Maybe, or maybe the Chinese are smart enough not to trust a branch of the GOP.
28
@S B
That is not the true definition of Karma. Your comment means revenge.
2
@Rick Tornello
No, I don't think so
1
@S B
I think the GOP is a subdivision of the Koch Empire, seeing as how Senate republicans are always in a blind panic to cut corporate taxes for them.
1
The continuous biased and negative reporting on China doesn’t serve the American public well.
Reading the comments, most commenters do not have a realistic understanding of US’ position in the world and this trade war in particular. The entire thing reminds me of Boxer Rebellion of 1899 where ultra-nationalists believed their own propaganda thinking they were bulletproof and took on foreign troops armed with rifles
Don’t know if NYTimes reported this or not but Marco Rubio is trying to introduce a bill to bar Huawei from suing US companies in court. With Trump’s ban, US companies can no longer license Huawei’s patents essentially reducing them to stealing Huawei’s patents. Most American don’t seems to understand China isn’t stealing US tech/IP and is leader in quite a number of fields. The huge number of engineers and scientists China produce don’t spend their day using their education to steal.
This brings me to US’ standing in the world. Lots of American seems to think Europe, Japan and Korea will join the US to fight China, the new Evil Empire, not aware other countries have more balanced reporting on China. China is also Japan and Korea’s biggest trading partner and EU’s 2nd biggest. Asking them to join in the trade war is to ask them to commit economic suicide to maintain US hegemony.
24
@AmateurHistorian "The huge number of engineers and scientists China produce don’t spend their day using their education to steal."
The exact same thing can be said about Uighurs but that didn't stop the CCP from throwing millions of them in prison/brainwashing camps.
But unlike them, we have due process and access to defense lawyers, and they won't be forced to confess before cameras held at gunpoint style like the Hong Kong bookseller that was kidnapped.
Side note, you can help your ccp comrades by not contributing to US as a New York City tax-paying resident, but you won't will you.
2
What is going to happen to visitors to China, has been happening to people in HK. Everyone and everything has to be under control, and god knows who is at the helm of control. Domestic Chinese people do not necessarily know the impact and consequences of the already implemented SOCIAL CREDIT SYSTEM that has, and will caste peoples in society. We should be worried that China is going back to feudalism domestically, and "closing off" itself internationally. History seems to be repeating itself.
6
I'm going to write something that might not be popular here in the comments section. As the head of a U.S. manufacturing business that sources materials both domestically and overseas ... including from China, this is concerning and I worry about my employees who travel to China.
Don't get me wrong, I truly oppose Trump's tariffs and his strategies, and compete against cheap imported finished goods every day. However, to try, at this point in time, to source materials for our products on a 100% domestic basis would be impossible as neither the capacities - or the labor (with our current immigration "policies") exist. Even if they did, our costs would be 30% - 50% higher to source domestically. So, at a time where our customers (and U.S. consumers as a whole) continue to have a "Wal-Mart" mentality and any price increases are fiercely resisted, the need to source materials overseas (globally) continues to exist to maintain a modicum of profitability in a U.S. manufacturing business.
We haven't seen much inflation in this country in a long time. Are we all prepared to pay a good amount more for 100% domestic sourcing? If so, then I'd welcome the opportunity to purchase materials from our U.S. suppliers. But I'm afraid the real answer is "No" and my company would be the eventual loser.
68
@Bruce You are exactly correct. Even with the decimation of unions, people in the United States would have to have their pay cut further to about $3 an hour to compete effectively with much overseas' manufactured goods.
16
So there is no sort of savings with respect to carbon emissions, transportation etc.
Its interesting that we have not adjusted any of our thinking based on China's role in not being upfront in the global economy.
I do not oppose Trump's tariffs, but then again, I do not rush to change phones every 5 minutes and do not replace appliances when they can be repaired.
Let's just remember that China goes beyond electronics etc and have also purchased the largest pork producer in the US. We have food that is being exported, processed in China, and possibly being sent back. (just as an aside, Congress removed the requirement of mandating the country of origin from food).
There needs to be a readjustment about business, agriculture and the need for public companies to constantly chase these endless hockey stick growth in profits.
Let's be honest, that is why China is even a major part of our economy. The easy profits that come from outsourcing production to a country that has zero workers rights, no environmental conscience, and minimal regulation.
Sorry to hear that the costs would be 30%-50% higher, but do your profits allow for it? If so, it still something your company should consider. Why invest US dollars in a foreign country? Why not feel good about being a US company that supports the local economy in taxes and has a domestic workforce?
Why is everything driven by the 30-50% additional cost?
11
Not sure why you think this would be unpopular.
Trump has correctly identified problems with China that should be addressed but rather than start a respectful discussion he has started with punitive actions which resulted in higher costs to us and retaliations as this article describes
5
An actual benefit from the worsening trade relations would be the U.S. becoming less dependent on China for its cheap labor. Make no mistake, China opposes democracy and the freedoms we enjoy. Just ask the residents of Hong Kong. China's goal is to replace America as the most powerful country in the world, and the less dependent we are on China, the better.
19
How did “we” become so dependent on Chinese labor?
3
I hope wealthy Republicans who back the current administration read this article very carefully. The world depicted here is the end of the road they are on with Mr. Trump. Oh, sure, it starts with immigrants and other helpless minorities. But it ends with everyone.
22
Not at all. This pulls back the covers and shows the Chinese government for what it really is. Who is going to stop them from doing whatever they want in their country?
Nope, Democrats and Republicans alike will turn a blind eye to anything China does for that extra profit.
This is a conversation that should have happened over a decade ago.
5
@Dominic Not 'everyone, only business people.
1
American companies moved their manufacturing to China in pursuit of greater riches, impoverishing the American labor force.
They were willing to give away manufacturing knowhow and intellectual property to the Chinese in order to get a foothold in China. They accepted Chinese unfair terms of trade. Chinese human rights abuses, like the "re-education" of the Uighurs and the repression of any dissent were swept under the rug so as not to rock the trade boat. Digital giants bent over backwards to comply with the repressive rules that enable control of Chinese citizens. The US is now waking up to a China that challenges it and has world ambitions.
It does not take a genius to figure out that when you feed a beast you will eventually be their next meal.
The bill is coming due.
60
@Michael
American companies played a hard game, it was very profitable for them. The Chinese know how to play a hard game too. Our human rights record is not so clean either.
Now they invest in infrastructure and technological advances and the US invests in military might and wars while the infrastructure crumbles and is rotting and public services are down to nothing, health care, education and the cuts in SS benefits and Medicare and more.
29
@ARL Its not a hard game. Re-invent your company to get more profits? Not at all. I can just move all my production to China and more than double my profits while making my product worse.
It was an easy decision to move to China. Its EASY money and you don't have to change a thing about your business.
11
It's not so simple as "impoverishing the American labor force." Lower labor costs means lower prices. You lose out on payday and you win at the checkout counter.
1
“Those [corporate contingency] plans included a procedure if its servers were served” :
What? They haven’t already encrypted everything? Perhaps encryption hasn’t been viewed as consistent with rigorous (short-term) cost-cutting.
7
The Koch Brothers have done so much over the past two decades to make possible a Trump Presidency. How appropriate that one of their executives was detained in China because of Trump trade policies.
60
American companies, and all of those of the West for that matter, have been daydreaming that they would always win in economy matches in China with the rule of the game they brought along. One thing they did not foresee and still do not want to see is that for thousand of years, China has NEVER played by the rules. It, China, also wants to define its own rules, especially now it is bigger and stronger. Thanks to Globalization. Thanks to WTO. Thanks to years of outsourcing. I do not see why American business men, CEOs should be concerned, complaining, or crying now.
38
These type of articles make China look terrible. I’ve been to China multiple times and had a great experience on every trip. To the rest of the world, the daily news coming out of the United States makes us look even -more-terrible. Trump may not care what the rest of the world thinks, but those of us who travel on a regular basis know the almighty USA has a serious perception problem outside of our semi-walled borders.
25
@M Being European that is nothing new. We are also seen as the country where the young flee to for a chance at a better life.
2
@M
Nothing new. IMO, and experience, our rep hasn’t been great there since ~1968. I’ve been shoved out of the way while in line in Germany - 2x - once forcefully - refuse to sell me a ticket to the Rijksmuseum bc I was an American (manager was called and employee was reprimanded), and cursed in France. I speak enough French to know exactly what was said. It’s not fit to publish. Love Europe, but they hate us. If you travel independently as I do - you’ll see. If you’re in some big tour group - those employees are paid to smile.
5
@M
I understand your point. I lived in Beijing for three years and reading the news about China on western media while I was there always made me scratch my head.
6
Good for the CCP. The Koch organization has been the source of misery in the USA for years. Let everyone whose job was eviscerated by these odious brothers rejoice that a foot soldier in their despicable army suffered some mental angst.
38
These American businessmen may be reaping what they sowed. They have enabled and backed an incompetent and treacherous president whose policies have resulted in China's vindictive retaliation. None of these dictators or wannabes care a wit about democracy, decency or human rights. They care about power and money. Will trump change to protect them? Only if it suits his purposes and his ego.
24
The Chinese Government has been doing this for a long while. They will send mobs to homes, and deny visas until you self censor yourself as well. This is a tried and true playbook they have been using for decades!
The Chinese Government is not playing nice, has not played nice, and has no reason to play nice.
The quicker the western world realizes this the quicker we can prepare ourselves for a dominant and strong China.
24
@Chris
The western world does not play nice either, they exploited cheap Chinese labor as long as possible, it was very profitable for them.
5
@ARL
And the Chinese used slave labor as well to build their vast holdings during their history. I am unsure as to the point of your comment.
1
And I get the sick feeling that we in the West have an orangutan dealing with a supercomputer.
15
Reminds me of the tactics used by US authorities to intimidate journalists and documentary makers who reported honestly on the waging of war in Afghanistan, especially exposing the lies about drone attacks. Intimidation, hostile interviews and confiscation of phones and laptops at US airports. See accounts by Laura Poitras and others. Do you think the USA is less chillingly authoritarian than China when pursuing Enemies Of The State? Open your eyes.
21
@Xoxarle Yes. We do not have a "re-education" camp for Uighurs do we?
Do we have a firewall around the internet so that all media is controlled and you cannot voice your opinion?
Does our government install an app on your phone if your enter China?
2
@Xoxarle. "Do you think the USA is less chillingly authoritarian than China"?
Yeah, I think the USA is a bit less authoritarian than the Chinese state.
4
@Xoxarle "Do you think the USA is less chillingly authoritarian than China when pursuing Enemies Of The State?" I dare you hold a picture of the Dalai Llama or yellow umbrella in Tiananmen Square and find out. No? Thought so. Sick of these false equivalence statements.
2
President Trump is so right in holding the feet of the Chinese government in the flames. Their business practices are abhorent to decency and fairness. They lie, they steal, they deceive as part of their usual business practices.
Any deal with the Chinese must be clear and enforceable .
I have dealt with Chinese Nationals for years. They visit our country with bags of cash and undercut all decent brokers. I instructed my work crews to always remove labels that identified where our scrap emanated from, otherwise the Chinese buyers would visit the locations and steal my clients.
They are unscrupulous. This is of course my opinion generated through decades of dealing with Chinese buyers.
18
@Tom ,Retired Florida Junkman
Because Americans have never tried to cut out a middle man or vertically integrate a supply chain. Please.
2
@Tom ,Retired Florida Junkman Gotta support your opinion. "Mercantile Japan" did the same thing to USA & Europe until '80's. Then Planet Earth got mad at Japan. They changed, forced by, er, by "outside forces". Too bad.....
1
SCMP (Southern China Morning Post), a HK news publisher, has published at least one story on one Chinese scientist being charged in US for illegally download data from the server of a small US company. On the surface, the story didn't tell any detail as to why a foreigner in US can download company's important data. On the other hand, the current story on the surface doesn't tell you a lot as to who is this guy, what is his background, what were the questions, and why he still can keep his passport. This report raised more questions than answer. I am confused about the purpose of this story.
6
@Usok
The point of the story is that in a country with absolutely no guarantee of due process the detention of foreigners can be used as a pressure tactic. China can and does routinely use arrest and detention as a political tool.
In the United States Chinese nationals have the absolute right to the best attorney their money can buy and any government decision to detain and/or prosecute those individuals is subject to review by an independent judiciary.
6
I am wondering when China and other countries will start rounding up Americans, separate children from parents and put them in foul environments and starve them. This mob-boss/president is creating an international crisis that will eventually blow back to the USA.
17
@Gary
When Americans start pouring over China's borders illegally with no regard for the law.
Great, two tyrants pushing and shoving the little people only for negotiating leverage. Look at what Canadians went through this year for US law. Chinese 'justice' is a joke. Yet Trump will just capitulate like he did with ZTE, for some personal favor and Republicans will rubber stamp him selling out birthright away for a bowl of soup.
7
@mjw Canada is having its own issues with China. Specifically with birth citizenship as they are a "birth tourism" location for wealthy Chinese citizens.
Feel free to search the NY Times, you will find plenty of articles.
1
I don’t understand how we in the West, let ourselves become to be bullied by China!?
It’s time, we the citizens of the West, tell corporations that they are not the ones governing, but instead the we the people are. The people of the West will not sell out our Democracy for corporate profits.
If the West can’t play nice with China, corporations need to do business elsewhere. We can’t yield to China by watering down our Democracy.
Thank you for spreading the word.
10
Corporations rule. Not people.
3
Wait- I’m supposed to be worried, sympathetic, concerned about industrial executives being harassed, threatened, used by China. Shipping jobs to China for decades, knowing the kind of government, human rights record, trade extortion practices it has- to say nothing of it’s paternalistic relationship with North Korea- and we are supposed to- what?!
Three reactions; 1) these actions only play into the president’s claim that trade with China is....tilted; they make him look good (one of the few things that does). 2) If the Koch industry sends anyone else to China, keep them.
3) If Senator McConnell visits his family’s shipping business in China (building ships there, not here) anytime soon, keep him, too.
69
@Jo Williams you're not supposed to be anything. The authors are not asking for your sympathy, they are reporting on a newsworthy topic. Period.
2
@Jo Williams: So Russia owns the presidency and China gets the Senate. It sounds like a fair division of spoils.
6
@Jo Williams Senator McConnell's wife is of Chinese descent. There is an interesting article about her and the relationship to Chinese shipping. I read it on the NY Times.
3
while it may be satisfying to find that a Koch has been harrassed, what this really means is that any American, esp those who might have spoken against the Chinese regime (including on social media), is at risk.
Even before the trade wars and the arrest of the Huawei executive, I had sadly decided I could no longer visit China.
12
@mm
File space is cheap and with quantum computing, scary.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how it is that China is one of our greatest trading partners with which we have full diplomatic relations despite its having an undemocratic, repressive government and where now it is harassing American citizens while we have a firm embargo against any dealings with Cuba.
Is it that the issue isn't human rights, as so frequently claimed in why Cuba has been so treated, but money?
23
Xi's holding hostage an American is one of the best re-election gifts he could give to Trump. It tosses red meat to his base and provides substance to Trump's ham handed approaches towards China.
11
Any executive who is now complaining about Trump's tariffs or being harassed by the Chinese government is showing bad businessmanship (or businesswomanship). A good businessperson is supposed to have the foresight on changing economic and political trends in the short and long term. The fact that they invested in a country with different political values that could one day threaten the US, only for the US to have to take measures to clamp down shows this lack of foresight.
13
Hmm, seems like grabbing people’s daughter off the street and randomly “interviewing” Chinese post-doc researchers at universities have consequences. Who knew.
22
@AmateurHistorian what a sensational way to characterize detaining someone who sold arms to Iran, while they can still freely roam around in a first world canadian city hijacked by mainland chinese. But sensational false equivalence and fictitious strawmen-like arguments (aka lies) are the only thing ccp sympathizers have at their disposal.
8
@AmateurHistorian
Its not like china hasn't stolen trillions in US intellectual property trade and military secrets.
That student at Duke researching stealth technology who became a billionaire after fleeing back to china while under FBI investigation was definitely just misunderstood. Overzealous FBI agents seems like a probable explanation.
Secondly why would you defend them. You do realize if you are an American (or even westerner) that Chinese policies only benefit them and often, though very indirectly at your expense. You do realize this is a nation who routinely threatens military conflict with the US and brags that their new fighters can shoot down F35s.
If things ever did go south Americans including yourself will be on the line, as taxpayers, soldiers etc.
China posses a direct threat to your interests weather you like it or not. This is not a joke, millions even billions could die. Look at history, War is not inconceivable, even if its not with the US. And the more powerful they are the less cards the US has. We made it threw one cold war without mass causalities, I would not put my money on another.
10
@2-6 Because they either grew up in the mainland or retain family/friend ties with communist/businesspeople whose officials and professionals, with no sense of irony, send their kin abroad to reap the quality-of-life benefits of that less-corrupt democratic societies provide upper middle-class, while maintaining financial benefits from corrupt authoritarian regimes. There are lots of those of different stripes, Saudis, Russians, A-OK with oppression back home, as long as they don't live there.
1
Anecdotal narratives are not the basis for "harassment" headlines. Statistics as to departure delays and entries per capita as compared to entry/exit procedures in other countries would be welcome, but that would require research.
I'm told entering and exiting the U.S. has been a bit problematic recently. Any anecdotes?
10
Trump and family will solve this issue. Right?
6
@Ziggy -
Right. China has granted Ivanka Trump several trademarks.
5
@Ziggy
They are very stable geniuses. I have no doubt they will.
I smiled. When I first read a Koch employee had been harassed by the Chinese government I smiled. The only problem, I thought, was that the Chinese hadn't harassed one of the Koch brothers themselves. I'm not particularly proud of those thoughts. I'm not particularly troubled by them either.
52
@Lou Torres
And the Right continues to yell about George Sores.
Essentially the Koch brothers are the right wing George Soros in media perception.
The Koch brothers are politically active billionaires on the right just as their are politically active billionaires on the left.
Easy targets, but really of minimal importance, they spend a lot of money but often have very little to show for it.
3
@2-6
They have the Tea Party movement to show for it.
5
@Lou Torres
My first reaction was similar. I laughed & wished that the Koch brothers, Mitch McConnell & Donny boy would all fly to China & become permanent "guests" of the Chinese government. Seriously, in that case the Chinese would be doing the entire world a favor. But of course the Chinese, like our own government, will only detain and/or persecute the "little people", not the true criminals.
3
Between our own regime's kidnapping of kids and our megacorporations' capture of laws, the Koch lackey had it coming.
Don't use this karmic event to promote the anti-internet, anti-noncorporation vile TPP, though. It had nothing to do with trade, or China. And remember, Times, it's "imprisoned [without charge]". Detention is for schoolkids!
14
@SR it may be easy to throw shade at the Kochs but you do realize Koch-backed groups actively oppose family separation and favor protecting DACA program participants?
6
@RM They woudln't have to oppose the government's official policy of separating families and caging children, if they hadn't bought Donald Trump into the White House in the first place.
6
@Samuel they actually opposed Trump in the 2016 primaries and didn't support him in the general election either (despite intense pressure to do so), so I wouldn't day they "bought" him. They've also made it clear they are not going to support him in 2020.
1
Dirty fossil fuel barons Koch brothers are among the number one enemy of America along with Putin (wind turbines kill birds and harm... worms & killer of reporters), Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (from fossil fuel kingdom and also killer of journalists) and they are also enemies of clean renewables.
Do you think they are also number one enemies of China?
When China is leading the world in replacing fossil fuels, is it possible the executive's problem was the rogue nature of Koch industries aligned with fossil fuel interests rather than he was an American?
16
Two sentences in this story mention the fact that two Canadians have been arrested and imprisoned by the Chinese in retaliation for the fact that Canada honoured its extradition treaty obligations and detained a Huawei executive at the request of the U.S. In fact, these two men have not been allowed to see their families or have their lawyers visit, and one of them has had his glasses taken away. If two Americans had been jailed like this it would be front page news in the NYT, but here it is just a barely mentioned side note in a story about the harassment of Americans. China really doesn’t want to start arresting and detaining Americans for fear of what would happen, but they don’t hesitate to bully Canada because they know that Americans just don’t see the arrest of two Canadians as being important - even though Canada was only doing what the U.S. asked under a legal treaty.
43
@Against Verres
Thank you for the updated information the Canadians arrested. I wondered as I read the story what their status was, and why it was not included. Now I know -- sadly.
12
@Against Verres-
The US under our dear leader hasn't treated Canada much better than it treats China. Of course Trudeau unlike Xi isn't a personal friend.
Thanks again for helping our diplomats in Tehran and our stranded passengers during 9/11.
1
"It summoned American executives in June to warn them that they would suffer if they followed the administration’s proposed ban on sales of American technology."
China needs a lesson in democracy. If the president issues an executive order or the congress passes a law preventing them from doing business with China they have no choice but to comply or risk imprisonment.
3
Do multi national companies not registered in the US to avoid taxes really have to listen to us?
2
China enslaves its people; for decades we have ignored its human rights violations because we wanted their cheap goods. The Koch brothers have worked relentlessly to control our government through purchasing its politicians by dark money transactions and imposing their John Birch libertarian ideology on a naive public, thus we now suffer a right wing kleptocracy and a despoiled environment. It is schadenfreude - ish to see these two monstrous entities suffer a bit.No sympathy for either party in this story. Add blustering Trumpery to the mix, and we face a dangerous reckoning.
38
Well said! @Kate
3
Can we just for a moment forget about the different political parties and ideologies and think in the best interest of the USA. China is an enemy and the sooner we all accept that China is not going to change the better it will be for us. yes we and western countries have in a sense helped create this with their greed and now China has taken that money and put into motion long term plans such as the belt and road initiative. we cannot trust anything China says and does and i hope we and other countries wake up and get our business and supply chain out of China.
16
@TKE-China, like the USA has dramatically changed. The idea that they won't change and accepting it is to sentence about 1/6th of the worlds population to political enslavement.
They most change but they aren't going to change without a USA that embraces the principles of democracy, Justice and the rule of law. A USA that is engaged in the world on a multi-lateral level, supports and strengthens the WTO and airs it's disputes with the power of alliances that work together for common goals.
When the President of the US tears down the concept of the rule of law and embraces XI, Putin, Kim and MBS over our liberal democratic allies across the world you also get change.
The reality is the problems the world faces need the US and China fully engaged and at peace with each other. The ice is melting and the weapons both sides are developing take less time to go from launch to target.
13
Americans-Just boycott China unless absolutely necessary for business. From Personal knowledge whatever is on your laptop they will lift up-for example research proposals; biotech info and the list go on. And by no means use Hawi iphones you will be under surveillance.
10
@lieberma –
Ordinary Americans boycott China? Where else will they get consumer goods, prescription medications, smartphones and laptops, and myriad other goods? They are manufactured in China. Unless American businesses radically change their supply chains, we are trapped.
2
@Michael N. Alexander
I find being able to access rare earth commodities more worrying. China holds most of the world's rare earth resources, essential for much of our technology.
Many businesses have already moved to countries with cheaper labor for their manufacturing. The current trade war should give them another incentive.
1
I have done business in China for over 20 years and across the globe. I have always felt welcome and my Chinese counterparts in business couldn't be more accommodating and friendly. I have never felt under threat at any time.
There is no doubt Xi is a dictator who is abandoning liberalization. This trade war isn't the result of Chinese authoritarian policy. President Trump has embraced Xi, Putin, Kim and MBS as personal friends.
President's Trump's goal has been to monitize the US military and attack our balance of trade. He has had no interest at all in expanding human rights and defending the rule of law and human rights globally. In fact he has attacked it almost every day of his Presidency.
If all you stand for is monetizing your advantages in the world it makes perfect sense for countries to retaliate when you threaten their livelihood.
This is frightening and the fact that our President has embraced totalitarian leaders across the globe should be chilling to every resident, illegal alien and particularly American Citizens.
52
@HL When US senior politicians were critical of Chinese cultural or political behavior detentions emphasized pro-democracy and free speech protesters, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents. Emphasis on trade and financial relationships results in detentions people involved in commerce. Which do you prefer?
2
@R-It's all terrible. We just allowed MBS to chop up a US resident journalist and our President embraces him for a weapons deal.
Kim apparently had his negotiating team murdered after the failed talks with the US. Now we're going to allow a freeze for the lifting of some sanctions.
We are openly supporting the suppression of human rights across the globe right now.
We are embracing the suspension of rights not the expansion of rights. Rights are protected by building the rule of law not destroying it.
13
@HL
Well written and totally agree. The problem though is how do we get republicans to listen and care? They don’t seemed concerned about rights of people any more than Xi is by watching immigration and stroking white supremacy.
We have a deep seeded racism problem and it always seems to find the cracks in our society to exploit and abuse. Republicans have been doing this for generations now. The fact that they never legalized the work force that so many farmers depend on and now use it against democrats as a weapon used wedge issue is disgusting.
These people truly live in another world and I have no idea how to even reach them. I live in a liberal state and only recently am I hearing grumbling over immigration from conservatives about how we are treating immigrants.
And now the Tea Party has hobbled our government economically through tax cuts to force social welfare entitlement cuts. If we try to cut the military they will scream we are anti-American.
3
Wow, who knew that negotiating trade with dictatorships could be so difficult. This is your guy republicans, you own this.
80
@Harry B
They don’t care. They want more Hispanics deported.
2
Trump’s disregard for human rights and and his mistreatment of people makes it easier for countries like China to harass people like China is doing to Koch people.
17
Reminds me of the old English definition of a Fox Hunt:
The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable.
A pox on all their houses.
15
Has Trump done the same to a Chinese executive? She is monitored 24/7 in Canada.
9
@Keh-shin Cheng Evidence had to be provided to an independent Canadian Court pertaining to sanction violations. Canadian authorities arrested Meng Wanzhou because the information was credible. Because the Chinese have a highly politicized and opaque legal system, their view of this arrest was seen through this prism. Courts in the US and Canada hew more closely to the law and are less inclined to be manipulated by political pressure. As CFO, Meng Wanzhou would be in the position to know about Huawei sanction violations. As with anyone in her position of authority, she would be monitored as a potential flight risk.
11
Any day a Koch Industries executive is detained by a foreign power is a day for celebration!
Please keep him- forever!
31
Trump's twitter and tariff war with China is part of the problem. The "Counter-Puncher" hasn't yet realized that there are many indirect counter-punches available to China (or any other nation) that our executive hasn't considered - this is only one of them.
11
I never trusted China and never will. China is nobody's fiend or ally. It is in for itself. It appealed to the west's greed with cheap quality products which need to be replaced every 6 months or so and extremely cheap labor. These simple maneuvers appear to be premeditated from day one of the free trade. They were accommodating until they had us securely in their jaws,while laughing at us that some day they will have us working for them. Now we are caught between a rock and a hard place. May be one day we will be thankful to Trump in his chaotic and disgusting style for disrupting this march to complete dependence on a regime we should have not trusted from day one.
11
@JG
Took the strategy right out of our playbook, huh?
5
@JG Of course China is "in it for itself". Who else would they be in it for? You genuinely expect the entire nation of China to place your own needs before their own, and you are upset when they do not do so?
Every nation on the planet is out for itself, America most of all according to our current President. Every nation acts in ways detrimental to others, if it bolsters their own position. Why would you reasonably expect anything different? We're America, so everyone should be putting our needs before their own needs, because we're so great and awesome? Give me a break.
5
The magician's trick of misdirection (by raising other issues) seems to be occur in a number of reader comments. but I will focus on the main theme here. First, all businesses that set up production in China should have diversified their political risk from the outset, rather than an absolute cost minimization approach. As an example, For example, Japan took this approach in the past with energy imports.
Second, the climate in China has dramatically changed from the more optimistic Deng Xiaoping era to what today can only be described as a Stalinist state.
In the Xi environment, businesses should be asking what to do from an ethical perspective, as over the past decade in particular their profits came at the expense of human rights. Now all foreign businesses should be looking at their exit strategy.
15
@Joseph L But, the profits! Why formulate an exit strategy, when you can just stay there raking in the cash, and can expect the US government to come bail you out if the Chinese put you into hot water for some reason.
1
@Joseph L
“businesses should be asking what to do from an ethical perspective”
They can’t even act ethical in the US and you want them to somehow be good stewards outside the US where they have no accountability?
Did they support labor unions in China and bring them over? No they didn’t. If they were ethical they would have.
Capital proves daily it has zero ethics tied to it. There is no profit in ethics.
This was bound to happen eventually. Anyone who invests money in China or visits there is at risk of such treatment and always has been. To believe otherwise is fool's paradise.
14
Touchable. The problem with using chaos as a negotiating tactic is the known unknown: what will adversary do in return?
6
@Dan
True, but there is a little wisdom in the tactic. From the viewpoint of an adversary, a slightly intelligent person is easier to read than a moron because the slightly intelligent person is far more predictable.
We could do the same but for the fact that we are a nation of laws while China has perfected the concept of the police state. The safe course is simply to not go to China. As a tourist, there is nothing there I want to see. There are many pictures of the Great Wall that are available. Corporations so affected must decide if they really want to do business in China and if so, detentions are the cost of doing business in China. Use of video conferencing could reduce the need for business travel to China.
1
@Mike It not the Chinese Wall a tourist should want to see, but the people, how they live and work. For instance do people smile at police or do they fear them
/
2
The Koch's might reconsider any support for a President whose reckless trade policies are largely responsible for the current conflict. China holds a lot of cards.
It will take a much more competent administration to unwind, or at least mitigate, this mess. But for now, we're the bigger loser.
18
@Cap they've made it pretty clear they don't support Trump and may even back Democratic candidates in the 2020 elections. The Kochs are unapologetic free trade libertarians so it's not too surprising.
1
@RM It's hard to feel too bad for them, since they created the situation that gave us Trump in the first place.
2
@Samuel there's plenty of blame to go around for that (including, dare I say, Democrats for neglecting important parts of their electoral coalition like blue collar workers). Can't say I support everything the Kochs do but they are pro-immigration, pro-free trade, anti-deficit, and a whole lot of other positions that are diametrically opposed to Trump's platform. Of all of the conservative/libertarian mega donors the Kochs are basically the only ones who have refused to support Trump or Trumpism.
1
I can’t get over the picture of Ivanka at the table “negotiating” with the Chinese trade team. God help us all!
102
@Mary Beth Well, her clothing line was made in China wasn't it? And Trump's line of ties? What more do they need to know?
21
@Mary Beth Yes, that photo made me cringe, mostly because the self-appointed First Daughter / Senior Advisor’s presence at that table was so outlandishly inappropriate. Looking at the US side of the table, filled with inferior sycophants and the ignorant, reckless bumbler in chief, sitting across from the calculating, disciplined and seasoned Chinese, is worrying enough without the addition of pink-clad, cover girl Ivanka “Chairman Li will do what we ask because my precious daughter sang a song for him in Mandarin - I’m a diplomat!!” sitting there. That Trump believes she’s such an asset based on her appearance and ability to string endless platitudes together demonstrates the pathetic braintrust of our current White House. Scary.
6
You don’t see her going over there now as surely the Chinese would detain her.
1
Baby food compared to arresting a Chinese Hawaii executive , in another country, on charges of violating trump's Iranian stranglehold.
11
@King Philip, His majesty. It was the Canadians who arrested her and who are detaining her. Apparently they believe that the US has a strong case.
4
Canada only goes on what the US says, we say we have proof and that it isn't political Canada believes us, silly them
4
Once again Trump is making the world more dangerous. He has taken orders from his boss Putin and successfully torn apart ever norm that we have.
18
I’m surprised at the news. I thought they liked Koch in China. I don’t drink cola. Not a big Fanta be honest. It’s the caffeine. I find it gives me a little too much Pepsi? I have an appointment next week for my annual checkup. I’ll ask Dr Pepper about it.
6
This cold war with China was inevitable, Trump is as ham handed a diplomat as they come, but he's right to draw the line in the sand now. American businesses shouldn't be surprised by the geopolitical strategy of us taking such a high profile executive from Huawei. They are a linchpin of China's surveillance/military state and the most effective way of gaining leverage in issues much bigger than just the trade skirmish.
7
I think this is great and perhaps we should consider detaining executives of powerful private companies here as well.
24
Great news.
The shifting of supply chains from China to other low-wage countries will accelerate, with or without tariffs.
China has positioned itself as a military and economic adversary to the U.S. We must therefore decouple our economies and stop supporting China with massive trade deficits.
16
John,
It’s our open door policy by our greedy CEOs, COO, Chairpersons of businesses, elected members of house/senate, University Admins etc are responsible for today’s situation. Slowly and steadily it began in 1971. As reported by FBI and CIA that espionage is going on in University campuses and well known labs. (NYT’s many articles). Research is funded by our government and when the project are is successful it goes to Overseas for production. Our tax $ is at work. It’s like a dollar short and a day late situation. Now train has left the station difficult to stop.
Instead of going Overseas our greedy bunch should have started factories in South American Countries and provided support to educate students in various trades. This would have helped those countries to be financially in better position thus reducing illegal immigrants coming to US. Our tax dollar is at work.
2
@ADP
I agree. We should have stayed on this side of the ocean and helped our southern neighbors by providing stable trade and business without political manipulation unless human rights are violated. They want to tax, tax. They want to socialize, socialize. Respect their democracies over our business.
Given some of the discussion, two of the people with knowledge of the episode involving the Koch Industries executive said they believed it was an attempt to send a message to Mr. Trump.
'ya think? I mean, come on. Of course this is all an attempt to send a message to Trump.
Trump can't communicate except in the form of Twitter and Fox News. His administration has no plan for this trade war other than to start it. Trump surely knows how to pick a fight. But resolve it? Find a compromise? Trump has no clue how to do that.
I have no sympathy for Koch Industry execs., though, as they are basically an arm of this administration. Reap what you sow, boys.
33
@Kelly
But I thought "trade wars are easy to win"?
6
After the daughter of the Huawei founder was taken hostage by Trump as leverage in the trade negotiations, the Chinese government realised that the gloves are off. This is regrettable, but they understand only too well that Trump only respects strength, and he would exploit any weakness, including an unwillingness to play dirty. The Russians have realised this a long time ago.
228
@Adrian Obama was a gentleman and China kept picking his pockets, cheating on trade agreements and stealing our IP. You forget that it was China that exploited American weakness for decades and only understands strength.
33
@Strategery
The U.S. has weaknesses? We are the victims? How can we be the world’s most and best and greatest and still be such rubes? Which is it?
32
@Adrian "[Trump] would exploit any weakness, including an unwillingness to play dirty." Today's exam question is on Tiananmen Square. How did the protestors exploit the Chinese government's unwillingness (as noted above) to "play dirty?" Discuss.
10
Companies took their business to China knowing that their intellectual property would be stolen. They only cared about the profits. Now they want us to care about the fact that China isn't so friendly any more now that their Tariffman is negotiating a great trade agreement! As one of those employees side lined by the great offshoring wave, I have no sympathy for these folk.
507
@EJ What you said. They wanted to take all the jobs over there? Let 'em stay there, then, preferably against their will.
39
@EJ
Bravo EJ!
As a Koch Industry member, I'm sure he knew the bottom line was the bottom line and he was fully expendable as an employee.
His time ran out. His fill-in has been assigned, Koch moves on....
34
@EJ
Multitudes of U.S. companies have decades old joint ventures in HK with production in China that have nothing to do with intellectual property.
8
This kind of behavior from China really couldn't have come as a surprise, could it?
I guess it's the risk greed took.
29
The Koch's have been detaining US elections for years with their war chest of riches. Scores of Republican politicians have been elected using the Koch's donations. No sympathy here.
107
Every American businessman with business interests in China who travels through any country that has extradition treaties with China should think twice.
Meng Wanzhou, CFO of Huawei, and daughter of its founder was arrested at a Canadian airport at the request of US authorities, for supposedly being responsible for violating US sanctions. Americans should think twice about enforcement of its extraterritorial laws and sanctions on individuals in other countries with economic trade ties to Iran or other countries.
How many American businessmen have engaged in practices abroad that might be illegal or questionable in their effort to maximize profit?
Are we as rogue a nation as North Korea?
In the not to distant past European colonial powers, Japan and the US used military force to impose their own laws and carve out territories in China.
China is home to 56 ethnic groups but does not invade its neighbors.
15
@JMT
They did invade Vietnam.
Their island building campaign in the South China sea is an invasion of international waters.
Their fishing fleets invade economic zones of other nations.
Their land leasing and displacement of African farmers from their traditional lands is an invasion as well.
12
@JMT "but does not invade its neighbors." they're quite busy oppressing their own or lesser human beings in their view considered "property of China" like Uighurs, Tibetans, anyone for a freer Hong Kong or independent Taiwan.
"China is home to 56 ethnic groups" don't worry, it'll be home to only 1 Han ethnic group speaking nothing but putonghua if their cultural genocide against Uighurs (and maybe Cantonese/Hong Kongnese some day) are successful.
3
What?!
Some companies keep their network servers in “People’s” “Republic” of China!
Fashionable cloud computing services of some of us may be using such servers. What a security disoriented arrangements!
8
Koch Industries helped buy the current U.S. government. They get what they deserve.
79
@Vote with your pocketbook: Yet Koch Industries cannot stop criticizing its wholly owned government. Koch Industries is out of ideas and deserve getting voted out of government.
1
This whole thing also explains why Hong Kong refuses to be connected to Beijing - mainland China is showing its true character a bit too quickly. Trump should be given credit for bringing this to the surface.
14
@rudolf Democratic voters must concede on this point. As repulsive as Trump is, he is right in stand up to communist republic of Mainland china, who are interning millions of Uighurs in "re-education camps" or gulags, not to forget dismissing valid concerns of millions of Hong Kongers whose civil rights is being trashed nonchalantly at an alarming rate, with memories of Tiananmen of Mao's crimes against humanity still alive, uncensored and accessible, for now.
@Terrry
Trump isn’t standing up to them, the Koch’s or the republicans because of humanitarian reasons. They are using force and wasting our time, money and political power to help rich people have their way in another country.
These companies have been free to leave and not do business from day one. It is their “FREE” choice. If they are being robbed stop working with the thief. We have no authority there.
You want humanitarian results then all these businesses should have included and welcomed unions to go along side them and uplift democratic balance in the work place. They didn’t because they have no problem using people just like Xi does.
Time for the US to focus its efforts on developing business with core, like minded countries such as Japan, Australia, Vietnam, Indonesia etc. Indonesia has over 200 million people, Vietnam 85 million, India 1.2 billion +. Plenty of opportunities in both developed and developing markets for the US to compensate from declining trade with China. India and Indonesia are also democracies, something else to focus on i.e. like minded political mindset in respecting change and political elections and outcomes.
43
You mean like setting up a trans pacific partnership that excludes China?
Nah, TPP was an Obama thing, so that couldn’t be good
46
@Marc Faltheim Well, that's what TPP was supposed to do... develop a trading bloc as a counterweight to China. But it was an Obama initiative, so it had to be destroyed.
57
@Bernie Fyre
I get that TPP was supposed to increase leverage against China, but there were a lot of fishy things going on in it. Example: Setting up a tribunal system where companies can sue a foreign government that threatens their profit. There is almost nothing that the US does that involves a corporation thinking "hmm, how can I make money off of this?". Same goes for healthcare and immigration policy.
2
American businessmen sold out their countrymen to do business with a ruthless Communist dictatorship. Now they reap what they sowed. Maybe time to bring production back to the U.S? Unless cheap labor is worth doing business in terrible places. Why not Uganda or Somalia? I hear wages are really low there. Hire lots of bodyguards.
43
Is China an only market in the world? I have never gone to Beijing since 1989. I wonder how greedy the businessmen they are. They have been rising a regime which is against the human rights and jailed lawyers from 2000 when the RPC joined WTO.
11
China has been hitting Canada hard cancelling agricultural orders and imprisoning Canadians.They don't seem to care that from being popular and a country Canadians looked up to,they are now very unpopular.
8
@richard addleman
China was a country Canadians looked up to? What, pray tell, is admirable about China for Canadians?
The imprisonment of political prisoners and the harvesting of their organs? The rampant IP theft? The rampant money laundering in Canadian real estate and education, making housing and education unattainable for many deserving Canadians?
6
I think Mr. Addleman is offering an historical perspective that we once had a positive relationship with the country, but with the recent events, some which you cite, that view has changed dramatically. Not so dissimilar to our relationship with the United States.
12
America once had the resources to continue as the world’s most powerful nation — economically and militarily— but we allowed greed to get in the way and take us down. The politicians in Washington, mostly Republican, but also some Democrats, preferred to enrich themselves on money from American corporations that were dedicated to pandering to the Chinese in the name of profits. And like drug dealers, they fed Americans more and more Chinese-made technology products to keep us ignorant and happy. Meanwhile, they were shipping our jobs, technology and manufacturing capability to Beijing.
I would like to say we could turn things around, but I think America’s decline has become so steep that it’s too late . . . especially if our uneducated fellow citizens put the current regime back in office next year.
108
Like with virtually everything Trumpy does, his lonely war with China, one of his biggest business supporters, is juvenile. President Obama & Secretaries Clinton and Kerry had come up with TPP and TTIP were designed to keep China honest. It's the fault of Trumpy voters after all for messing up the country.
89
I wish the caption to the article's photo had pointed out the following:
1. This is Shanghai's skyline.
2. The message in red and white on the building rooftop in the right foreground reads: "I love the Motherland."
60
There are many wonderful people in China. I worked in Shanghai & have nothing but great respect & love for the people I worked with. Why must we act as if all Chinese are as bad as their government? Are we all as cruel & chaotic as the Trump administration?
14
@Mary Sampson The people of China are lovely. Their government is not.
10
@Winston Churchill
ditto for the people of the US.
4
It's more than ironic that China is using "exit bans" while our electoral college/trump univerity president is using "entrance bans" to protect their respective economies.
Really, now, Mr. Trump and toadie colleagues, who is going to work in all those new factories that the China tariffs will produce.
Aside from being blatantly stupid, Trump's approach to foreign nations is not unlike his approach to women: Assault, grope, rape, then ask if they want to negotiate. Not to be too Freudian, but this looks a lot like a compensation for being a stone cold loser with women who have any self-respect.
Lock him up before he, Kushner, Miller, Pompeo, and Mnuchin loot the Treasury, while in cahoots with the 1%. The huge tax cut for them was just the start. He "loves people with low intelligence" for a reason.
82
Get it right. He “loves the uneducated.”
22
The true nature of the brutal thugs who rule China should never been in doubt. The same people who would order tanks to run over peaceful demonstrators are capable of more pedestrian criminal acts like this. Something to think about when buying that next iPhone. And the commenters who find it amusing that their fellow US citizens are being treated this way because they don't like the company they work for should be ashamed.
12
@Todd
That we outsourced our entire industrial and knowledge base (and all the jobs that entails) to an adversarial Chinese authoritarian regime still amazes me to this day.
Now we fear that the Chinese military, with its advanced weaponry is getting too strong? What did our businessmen think was going happen? Did they ever look beyond the next quarter's profits?
79
The Trump Administration would like nothing better than to run over peaceful American protesters.
20
@JD Ripper There was a bipartisan hope in this country 25 years ago that bringing China into the global economy would both help them lift their people out of poverty and lead them on a road to a freer more liberal political system. The first one happened and the second was a huge fail. As to the short sighted decisions made by companies, selling out our country's long term interests for quarterly profits, I totally agree. And I while my natural instincts are torward free trade clearly it takes two to tango so we need to have firm national policy to deal with China.
12
That's hilarious.
6
China is welcome to all of Koch Industries. China can keep them in a re-education camp, where they may learn to stop meddling in politics. The two Koch principals, especially Charles, are deer ticks on our body politic. Their father built refineries for both Hitler and Stalin, and caught the despot disease. They cannot claim one ancestor who ever shed his blood to defend this country, but they want to own our government.
208
@William Burgess Leavenworth Koch Industries is among the biggest environmental criminals in the U.S. Perfect match for China.
54
That's a harsh libel to deer ticks.
34
@Richard except China according to Forbes China Is Set To Become The World's Renewable Energy Superpower
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2019/01/11/china-renewable-energy-superpower/#69b4d6f2745a
The environmental criminal lives in our White House and got there with a lot of help from the Koch brothers and his beloved Putin.
7
China listens in and watches everything anyway. Hopefully as the years pass by that will change. Young people will not stand for it. I did get a little chuckle though from this. Trump has such a way of bringing the world together. Our business owners made China financially strong. They don't want to pay our own citizens a decent wage. Now the worm is turning. Whatcha gonna do?
11
Come on. We need to look behind the curtain and see what’s really going on.
Let’s see, we have a communist, totalitarian government that is a brutally oppressive regime. They suppress free speech, violate human rights, have had animosity to foreigners for a thousand years and have taken over and dominated manufacturing globally by stealing US technology, getting first rate educations at places like MIT, Harvard, Stanford, etc and we’re SURPRISED!?
So far as these business execs are concerned: if you play with poisonous snakes eventually you’ll get bitten.
Thankfully we have the stable genius at work because trade wars are “so easy” to win and we’ll see positives effects soon once China learns to play by the rules. Unfortunately, there’s a global supply chain as well as farmers and suppliers in the US who are in real pain because of the Human Stain. But just keep putting your blind faith in the Mad King and see what happens.
The question is: what happens first war with Iran or a major recession?
38
@TrumpTheStain 100%. I have stopped to buy Chinese produced or invested goods two years ago.
6
That my friend is a monolithic task. It is nearly impossible these days to not buy something manufactured in China or has a part in it manufactured there. While theoretically it is an interesting idea to boycott China, practically speaking it can’t be done by most people.
Partly because of globalization which has enticed US and other global producers to maximize “shareholder value” by manufacturing in the cheapest places. But like Japan in the earlier days of automotive manufacturing, quality and efficiency has gone way up China produces quite a few quality products now.
When you can pay someone in China $6 a month (I have no idea what the pay rates are there) vs paying an American, who may not even be as “skilled” $15-20 pr/hr, - no company is going to do that. The horse has fled the barn and you can go back many, many administrations to find those culprits. When our educational systems are failing (they are) and we’re educating the best minds from China, Russia, etc that’s the root of it. Sharing technology, knowing it will be stolen is simply immoral. DJT has simply metastasized the existing problems as well as creating new ones.
I’m surprised and impressed you have been able to avoid Chinese products? What’s the trick? I too hate supporting repressive regimes when my countrymen and women are hurting.
5
China is one of the most boring countries I ever visited. The Forbidden City was the only interesting place in the entire country. On the other hand, Hong Kong is the vibrant
4
@Doris Keyes Freedom transcends nationality! Hong Kong was proof that with the right government, they can thrive in a society that respects rule of law, free press and free speech. Unfortunately those days are ending, and most countries would rather make extra money than stand up for Hong Kong, Taiwan or the millions of imprisoned Uighurs.
In what planet is it wise to invest and do business with China, a totalitarian regime with clear goals and world domination, that will think nothing of kicking our and/or taking over foreign companies and crushing anyone in the process.
24
I know lots of otherwise smart people who blame USA every time it does something to upset China. It takes some grit to stand-up to their tactics of intimidation.
6
@Alberto Abrizzi No it doesn't !
2
Ivanka and Donnie: now there's a negotiating team to be feared.
32
The bulk of China's new found wealth comes from the purchase of inexpensive durable goods by American consumers. Mass retailers like Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart and Sears who write their orders to China as American consumers prefer cheap prices to supporting manufacturing at home has allowed this to happen. China purchased our debt bonds and our government capitulated by giving them MFN status and in doing so, we have built their infrastructure, we have built their military, we have allowed them to build man made islands to control the shipping channels of the Far East and we have fed their hybrid Communist-Capitalist government. While we were asleep at the wheel, they have gone into developing countries in ever hemisphere from the Caribbean, to South America and Africa and purchased property and cut deals so when their manufacturing has priced itself out of the marketplaces, they will own the production from cheaper places to manufacture. We walk a tight rope today, as we don't want in particular, our farmers and manufacturers of high tech parts to miss out on potential business there. But the trade is imbalanced and will not work well for us long term. The problem is, our chief oaf, Trump has no idea how to really fix it and tariffs are not the answer.
46
Bill Clinton flew on the Walmart Jet more than a few dozen times in the early 90s and now everything we own is made in China suddenly (allowed a totalitarian currency manipulator to join the WTO for some reason.) Weird.
6
You seriously want to implicate Clinton as the problem? American manufacturers flocked to China in droves starting in the 70s so that they could produce goods at a cheaper rate and keep the extra profits in their own pockets. Never mind the state of American wages or jobs or manufacturing facilities. This is what we reap from their greed.
13
@Denise Vander Waal Clinton gave China MFN status. How quickly people forget...
2
Why is this even a surprise??
Of course, a police state that harasses it's own citizens is bound to use foreigners as pawns in negotiations.
Iran did it for 444 days. It is of course now regretting it even though it claims its enemy status with America as a badge of honor.
While I sympathize with some comments below that some of these exec's had it coming - I think this was more a Stockholm syndrome.
Many of these Americans and especially Chinese who are now US citizens - enjoyed economic benefits while things were going good.
And they used American passport as a leverage to demand extra salaries, perks etc.
All along, as hostages of China - were selling out America.
So,in that regard, what's coming due to them - well, why was it not expected??
4
I have three wonderful nieces who were adopted from China who are now entering adulthood. Maybe they might want to visit the country where they were born but it is much too risky. Even though they renounced their Chinese citizenship, all it would take is some official deciding it is in the interest of China to detain them as Chinese citizens while they were there and they would not be coming back. Can’t do it.
11
U.S. & other Western investment in China - as reported in this paper a few days ago - is declining rapidly; and this kind of harassment will speed the decline. But, as the Chinese economy feels the pinch, they will behave even more threateningly. We might be in a hot war with China sooner rather than later. Nevertheless, there are better places to invest in.
9
It isn’t only the executives they target. When my husband was working on a factory startup in China, I was part of a group of expat parents who would meet on Wednesday mornings for play dates with our young children. We were required to have a plain clothes police officer present at all times who would take notes on our conversations. She would arrive 10 minutes early and change from her uniform into her “mom” outfit in the restroom, and proceed to crash our play date. Coming from an open culture, it was very disconcerting, especially when she tried to be friendly with us.
59
What a shame when their Dark Money comes back to bite them
134
"The problems escalated after Canadian officials arrested an executive of Huawei, the Chinese technology giant, at the behest of American officials. China then detained a Canadian businessman and a former diplomat."
These two men have been held in cells where the Chinese leave the lights on 24 hours, one of them had his glasses taken away, and they are interrogated for hours every day. I call this torture, pure and simple. This is how China acts when they don't get their way.
International thugs and gangsters. Period.
134
@Canadian friend Is it torture when the US does it?
26
@Canadian friend And let us all remember that the Huawei executive is being "held" in a $6 million dollar mansion.
23
@cls Yes.
2
Trump secretly envies Xi and China's ability to rule by fear, to control everything a person does...no doubt he's tasking people in his government to tweak our own surveillance capabilities in order to emulate China's repression of civil liberties. And perhaps it's being partially or wholly funded by the tariff revenues derived from his Section 301 that makes Chinese imports exorbitant. Koch family members were willing allies with Nazi Germany in WWII, along with Henry Ford, GM and others who produced the tanks and materiel used by the Wehrmacht in that conflict until the cessation of hostilities in 1945...
50
Just imagine how different China would be today if the TPP were still in effect
24
@Bfrank4fr Really? The TPP was the Obama/Clinton version of "China is now the enemy". Trump is just following through on policies that were set up under previous administrations.
If Clinton had won the elections we would still see the confrontations in the South Chinese Sea and we would very likely still have seen the US efforts to force countries not to employ Huawei in their telecom systems.
2
China was never a member of TPP.
1
@Bfrank4fr You must not be involved in global trade. With TPP, China would still be stealing IP, hacking, cheating on trade quotas, subsidizing state owned industries and bullying our companies trying to do business in China.
3
As someone who travels frequently to China and had the experience decades ago of being detained for 36 hours in Siberia not long after the fall of the Soviet Union I know what it’s like to be told you can’t leave. All that being said I’m very small fry by Chinese standards so will continue to go.
The Chinese play the long game and remember everything. Trump has more than met his match and will fold. The right way to handle China is with the all of our western allies along with Japan and Korea. But that goes against Trumps unilateralism, it’s much harder to get everyone on the same page and competing interests aligned to stand together as a united front. And if there is one thing Trump does not do is anything hard and the Chinese know it. The Chinese will play hard ball and wait Trump out.
247
Maybe companies should not send people who were born in a country such as China and Iran back to that country. Do those countries still consider them citizens? But of course they were hired for their contacts.
12
In the aftermath of Tiananmen Square America and the western democracies had a choice to make and the "free-trade globalists" sided not with those peacefully demanding reform, but with the authoritarian government in Beijing.
For what now seems like a lifetime, corporate America and Europe and Japan have invested in and profited from dealings with that very same government- forgetting the Tank Man, who was brave where our government and others in the "free world" were craven opportunists. Capitalists traded their trade secrets away for sales inside the repressive country that sent us corrupted dog food and products made with the labor of political prisoners. Our IT companies helped build the "Great Firewall of China" that greatly extended the reach of the repressive national security state.
Over time, the western democracies have morphed more and more into the image of China by spying on every citizen. We have become more like them than they have become like us. The globalists promised us that free trade with China would soften and change the Chinese government.
China has grown strong economically even as our economy has hollowed out and we cannot build much without components made in this repressive state. They are now projecting their power into the South China Sea and elsewhere even as we shrink our military and commitments to allies. The world has not grown smaller, but the US Navy has.
Our leaders chose wrong and we went along. We should have stood with the Tank Man.
181
@David Gregory
Our military is large enough; we need to strategically employ it with help from our allies. To our detriment, the current WH occupant doesn't understand the advantage of diplomatic alliances.
10
@David Gregory You hit the nail on the head! 👍
3
This extends to many others in subtle ways. I was invited to give a talk at an event, but the CCP Secretary at the organization rejected my travel after the administrators purchased the tickets, demanding that I fly only on Chinese airlines (citing relations between the US and China as justification of the demand -- which is a first having been traveling to China for 30 years). I am a small fry in the grand scheme of things but when you have people worrying about such trivial things, you can imagine what they do in more high profile cases.
31
@Anonymous
Is there a transpacific flight that’s not code shared between an American and a Chinese airline?
1
Can't believe that all of these American Execs like the Kochs can't handle any necessary matters with the Chinese, with all of their big investments there. They have billions there, and Pompeo's connections with Trump and Xi, were obviously sufficient to free them.
Not to mention that when Trump acted like a bull in a china shop regarding Huawei, it would be the normal behavior of the Chinese to retaliate. That is their mo. So, they bought their way out, diplomatically. And mysteriously, Trump has somewhat eased his position on Huawei. So, now Trump has caved due to his Koch connections, and will reopen ourselves to mutual continued theft of our technologies in the US.
Further, they know China's continued actions of its thefts of strategic American companies and universities here in the US have been ongoing for some time, and the US has heretofore not taken sufficient counteractions to retaliate against them, as well.
You can't have it both ways, without a problem. It's American financial greed, vs China's thefts of our technology.
Caveat emptor, and expect no less, and pay the price! It's only about money and power, so it's okay to compromise the US for money.
28
Trump's ruthlessness toward other countries has been somewhat successful, because they, in turn, follow the rules. China seems to have a different approach. Perhaps he has met his match.
47
@Michael Ruthlessness? You’ve got to be joking. Trump is all loud mouth no substance and everyone knows it. He blasts big, bad tweets but doesn’t have the capacity or willingness to follow up his statements with real policy. He loses interest quickly and then moves onto shouting at another perceived enemy or wrongdoing. The international community has figured out Trump’s many shortcomings, including his inability to carry out any of his Twitter threats in a meaningful way. He barely has a functioning administration! Trump’s “match” can be found in any kindergarten around the country.
1