One part of the argument the author leaves out is that millennials—millennial women especially (I am one)—are getting married later because they recognize the importance of getting to know themselves first, honoring their personal goals first, setting themselves up for financial independence and autonomy first. They are figuring out how to deeply love and respect themselves first. Previous generations have certainly modeled the NEED to do that work. And it does take both time and trial and error.
1
If young people dont want to have sex, more power to them. Nothing wrong with that, might be better because they can focus on more important things in their lives. They are concerned about what they can do to fix issues like climate change, today's politics and what a mess they have inherited.
I don't know what the author is talking about.
It's well-known that Gen Z is considered those born between 1997 and 2012.
In the 2018 midterms, you'd often hear about Gen Z becoming the largest voting block, meaning you'd be 18-years-old if you were born in 2000 — like me and many others.
My teenage son and his peers are taking a much more sensible and pragmatic approach to dating and sex. He and his friends have ambitions related to law school, medical school, grad school, etc. which means they won't be launched in their careers until their mid-20s and likely won't be ready for marriage until age 30 or beyond. If you're not going to get married before 30, what is the point of getting into serious relationships - or even starting to have sex - in high school? I always felt, when I was in high school, that far too much emphasis was put on teenagers having "serious" relationships that would either go nowhere, or lead to people being tied down (and sometimes becoming parents!) far too early in life. Sex can be risky, physically and emotionally. Parenthood is a major commitment that is best avoided until someone is truly ready. Divorce can be awful, and it's good to avoid that if possible. Nothing wrong with younger people deciding that since this isn't the 1950s any more, and there's no longer any compelling need for people to get married in their late teens or early 20s (and, in fact, doing that is probably a recipe for a lot of stress and heartache), there's no reason to date indiscriminately in their teens or early 20s or commit too early to one person. I think it's way more sensible than how my generation handled relationships in the 1990s - where there was a 50s-style focus on finding love early but a 1970s-style focus on promiscuous sex.
1
The eternal subject ever since Adam and Eve about love and marriage and the baby carriage. Interesting article and I enjoyed and agreed with many comments .
My take, lots of luck is a very important ingredient, in order to find the right partner, to be best friends is a must , it includes sharing an intellectual , emotional and physical relationship, where you are equal partners, having children is optional, beyond that I agree with Einstein : It is all relative !
More handwringing about “love”. Or is it “relationship”? Or maybe it is about the anxiety produced by not getting enough…of you know what. I have lived through Kinsey, Masters and Johnson and endless “breakthroughs” about having a satisfying sex life. Me? I married a childhood friend and we had five kids. Then I realized that something was missing….guess what? I was gay. When the 70s came, I came out and found a rather wide variety of sexual experiences before..BANG..I met my husband. We have been together for…well the date of our meeting is disputed…say over 40 years. We have been through a lot. He and my wife, now passed, became friends. We are granddads. His status as step-dad was fully established in the first years. Happy? Very much. The secret? Take it slow….wait….easy does it. WAIT….that is what this article says. I never did it voluntarily but circumstances intervened and little by slow we got where we are today. Happy, fulfilled 80s.
1
The great poets and bards of the past had said it clearly: sex is a comedy and love is a tragedy. Marriage is a bourgeois institution which was always about status and money, never about feelings, thus being married is akin to slavery but sex is fun and freedom. The new generations are better informed and want freedom, not chains.
6
@Severus what a dismal view
2
This is all so hetero and so "Nuclear Family Only". Feels a little like an Ask Ann Landers column reflected by the many different directions the comments take. Another examination of "what millenials must be doing, through the eyes of the Boomers" in the American Playbook.
"Do they know something about love that the rest of us don't?" Huh? -Big 'Hook' in the intro; No Fish on the line
My husband and I met in January of 2015 in Mexico City, and were married 4 months later. We celebrated our 6 year anniversary this year.
I am a "New Yorker" and he is a "Chilango"-Mexico City guy his whole life.
He is 14 years younger. I am 50 and he is 36.
We just knew. We also knew that it would be challenging.
We went on passion, intuition, great sex, and a very clear sense of the compassion, intellect, emotional intelligence, and sexiness we saw in each other. We also are deeply connected to our families. And they have come to love us and support us completely as we do them. We have so many little nephews and nieces in both places who need our love and our care. I become more Mexican each day, when it comes to family, in that each "nuclear family" has little meaning outside of the larger family. In general Americans are too obsessed with the nuclear family, and it is isolating, and scary. Americans would do well to truly look at other cultures who raise their kids within the larger family and community context!
2
It has been 121 years since my great grandfather came to America, and I am the first one in my family to think I would be better off going back to Norway.
Instead, I live in the only developed country without universal healthcare. The cost of having a child in this country is absolutely outrageous, the level of care available dangerous, and the blood sport that is American motherhood terrifying.
To see what has happened to mothers during this pandemic and the very real way as a society we devalue human life over money, has been eye opening.
19
A few years ago Helen Fisher did a fluff piece for NPR for St. Valentine's Day, and I was living on a construction site being divorced after a 30 year marriage, listening to the radio in the only warm place- my bed. I searched down her contact info and wrote her an email, commenting that she (who had never been married, at that time) "didn't know anything" about marriage. I thought she should talk to someone (like me) who actually does. She advised people wait two years before marriage. I opined that if one waits until the sexual passion is gone, it would lead to the decision not to marry at all. She returned my email, and was surprisingly empathetic. Those who would delay marriage and children because of their concerns about "the state of the world" need to know that most of the children born are to people who never give such things a thought. Instead, people who live in the worst conditions have the highest birth rates. The result is unfortunate for the next generation, and the effect is cumulative. Marriage isn't for the adults, it's for the children.
2
It never crossed my mind to have a child. As a child, which I mention because a few others mention children making those decisions, I had too many adult events taking place for me to know what was to happen naturally, what would be of me (to marry, to have and raise a family). No one explained a thing to me (we could have been British, up in Michigan) from the mid-sixties of my birth to the divorce in '79.
So, no kids and no marriage for me. And I embrace the "can't take it with me" attitude of what I have to leave behind (no one left a twig behind for me). Thoughts on expiring: I can take textiles with me, and I will.
4
I'm solidly in the millennial cohort. What I've observed among my college-educated peers is more casual dating and sex during college years, but once a serious relationship forms, that can last for years and often leads to marriage in the late 20s, typically after living together and adopting pets together first. When you look at it that way, the decision to get married from that situation is a pretty clear-eyed one: your life is already essentially as it will be after the legal commitment. I can see why this is more successful.
11
My 8 year old has said many a time she doesn’t plan on having kids. I always try to trick her into changing her mind, but she is pretty adamant about a childless future. Can’t say I blame her! Parenting isn’t for faint of heart!
6
Given that I am a member of the Millennial generation, I think I understand much of the thinking that takes place today. My generation may engage is less sex, but somewhat more meaningful sex. The whole idea of "Friends With Benefits" in place of traditional dating, gives a young person a chance to be intimate with someone they already know and like before committing to a long-term, romantically based relationship. There are few better ways to gauge how a person feels about you as their actions before, during and after having sex. Millennials are more calculating and analytical in their decision making. That's a good quality.
8
Take a long hard look at American Culture and the response of Millennial's to it. American Culture is shallow, based on materialism and image over substance.
Love and intimacy are complex Human behaviors and have been Disneyfied to the point of irrelevance by Hollywood, Celebrity Culture and Madison Avenue.
Sexuality has been debased by Organized Religion and Pornography. Pornography is sex education in America.
Children are not valued by Gov't or Business, hence Day care, Parental Leave and Education are rapidly approaching 3rd world status. Given the Economic Climate, children are just an Upper Class luxury, Yuppie Puppies taken care of by Au Pairs.
So the Millennial response is not surprising at all.
25
@Plimsol Best comment I’ve read in a long time. 59, tailed of Boomer generation who saw all this coming by 1979.
Never wanted to bring kids into American society.
The real question, are, Australian, Asian and European millennials acting the same way. Or is this another American trend?
4
@Plimsol Solid arguments. Without birth leave for parents and additional income, brining another human being to life is being irresponsible.
1
The thing about relationships is they are highly personal to the two people involved.
The best relationships are those that bring the same set of values to it. So no matter what trends are popular in various generations, it does get down to the couple and their value system.
Trends change, but the commitments are still pretty much the same. It helps that the stigmas of having sex before marriage are no longer there. And also the pressure to have children.
These are healthy changes.
7
@Jean, my college roommates great grandmother told us quite seriously… remember girls, you try on the hat before you buy it.
We could have died of shock followed by laughter. I’m not sure we’ve changed as much as the media makes it to be.
2
My late wife--we were married over 50 years--and I had having children in mind when we got married. That aspiration was central to our relationship. I hear and read a lot less about parenting plans from Millennials and GenX. Are they more selfish, or, like Trump, narcissistic?
1
@Gene S Or perhaps they allow themselves more options. I would argue that is a great thing. An example I am inspired by. Watching teenagers today, I find myself both worried about their malaise and excited about their potential for reinventing all the silly rules.
13
@Gene S
"I hear and read a lot less about parenting plans from Millennials and GenX. Are they more selfish, or, like Trump, narcissistic?"
I'm fascinated by the illusion that having children isn't a selfish choice. Our genes seek survival through replication. Our "souls" (immaterial as they may be) seek joy through parenting. Our egos seek gratification through our kids' successes.
I write as the parent of two that have brought me survival, joy, and pride.
...Andrew
8
@Gene S Having a child is an inherently optimistic thing to do. Millennials are low on optimism. We are having (on average) worse lives than our parents, and it's overwhelmingly likely our hypothetical children would have a worse life than us.
12
The article fails to adequately discuss the rising cost of living and stagnant wages as one of the main reasons (if not THE MAIN REASON) millennials are getting married later and dating longer. Getting married is expensive. Weddings are expensive. Having children is VERY EXPENSIVE. Most millennials I know, and particularly ones who live in big coastal cities with high cost of living, waited until their 30's to get married (including myself who at 35 is considered a millennial) because we were not financially stable in our 20's while saddled with student loan debt and trying to pay the rising cost of rent.
27
The “kids these days” tone of millennial articles is so grating. Some millennials are in their late 30s!
22
Still children until you hit 40!
1
Also curious what the effects of the accessibility of porn in the digital age as well as rate of/children of divorce have on this topic!
9
No one has mentioned the impact that changing values has had on relationships in the last generation. Today we see fewer people who have grown up in religion.
Even if an adult was themselves not religious, they typically had parents who were, and those values definitely trickled down.
Now many millenials were not raised with traditional religious values, and marriage is in many respects a religious value. Mainstream religions say "don't have sex before marriage", and "marriage is for life." Millenials don't share those values, and they are acting accordingly.
They saw their parents go through terrible marriages and even worse divorces and don't want to make the same mistake. They want to marry not because god says to and all of the pressure with that, but because the person makes them happy long term.
28
Real-life, 25-year-old here. Millennials aren't getting married because we're broke. My boyfriend and I met in grad school--a degree that cost me $100,000. So, I'm trying to get my money's worth out of my degree before thinking about marriage. And kids? You've gotta be kidding me. With the latest devastating climate change studies coming out, my boyfriend and I concluded it's unethical to bring another generation into this world. We may adopt in 10 years.
45
Did anyone stop to consider that the income gap has made the quest to make enough to pay off crippling student debt and making enough money to support your self, much less a mortgage, aging parents, and a child is a significant hurdle? Commitment and settling down is much easier without the fear of an inability to survive on one income. I know I personally would have settled down years ago without a constant financial burden on my mind. Forget about blaming cell phones.... Let's think about blaming a self serving economy run without regard for the future.
27
Absolutely not! They, especially the men, are wasting prime sexual years. What is our current widespread sexual problem? How can we best resolve it? See eight ways, and why it would be beneficial for tens of millions of Americans, at http://worksnewage.blogspot.com/2018/08/for-free-thinkers-only-americas-sexual_17.html.
1
This is absurd. These kids are living with their parents. I am 42 and 20 years ago even though it was very, very hard, my then boyfriend, now husband and I were able to make it in NYC. We had a 2 bedroom in Brooklyn for 800 dollars a month when I was in graduate school so even though we were poor it was possible. Also, when you live with your parents or with roommates you're a lot more careful about who you bring home. You can't just bring someone home without it being weird, the person has to meet your family, come for dinner and be a real partner. Our place, similar to that old one, is now over 2000 a month. I have friends in their 20s and 30s and it's just not realistic to live like our generation did.
10
@Tai L Even 10 years ago, when I moved to Brooklyn, a 2 BR apt cost more than twice that. But salaries haven't doubled as fast as rent has.
5
@Tai I'm jealous. My current Brooklyn 2-bedroom (and that's using the phrase generously because the second "bedroom" is basically a glorified closet) costs us close to $2K per month.
A good article; although if a girl asked me what my credit score was on our first date, I'd be likely to ditch her with the bill. That's a horrible impression to leave and screams "gold digger" to me.
14
Frankly I think only the smart women would ask. A "gold digger," as you put it, would be extremely unlikely to care about the ramifications of pooling your finances. A woman with a job, enough money to take care of herself, and yes, a good credit score – she's the one with something to lose.
38
@Dylan You do know that your credit score speaks to your responsible handling of finances and not to your net worth, right?
15
@Dylan Yeah, if I got asked this on a first date, I'd leave immediately. You need to know how I'm doing financially to decide if I'm worthy of your precious date? Fine; you can keep it. I'll hold out for someone who is interested in getting to know things about me that actually MATTER.
1
"It’s possible, she said, that today’s singles are carving a more successful path to lasting love than previous generations. " Perhaps, but they have different fears, things that they are less likely to do because of their fear of failure in relationships and that can stall many as well in their willingness to go into long term relationships and marriage. Some think maybe by deferring it they may actually not fall into divorce like their parents. I took that tactic, it doesn't always work. Maybe the slow pace will work for some, but one has to think that some are not taking risks either because of fears. I think many Millennials will be slower in many things -- late bloomers -- but it doesn't mean that they won't make similar mistakes, it may be they do things so very different they get a different perspective and outcome but some may still fail at relationships because of their fears too.
1
This is a very interesting, thought-provoking article.
If this trend among the millennials to marry later in life (after 25) and to delay having a family persists, I wouldn't be surprised to see over the next 25 to 30 years, a labor market in the U.S. in which employers are desperate to find people to fill jobs. Schools across the country will need resources that will allow them to adopt innovative approaches to learning and training. Besides the sciences (inclusive of applied mathematics for everyday use), the arts and foreign languages should not be neglected. A richer society is one that feeds both the mind and the spirit; everyone stands to benefit from that in ways great and small.
The millennials may be playing it smart when it comes to marriage and sex (for the purpose of procreation). The world, by extension, could benefit from pursuing socio-economic and tax policies that encourage late marriage and smaller families, given that we live on a planet with finite resources. (Married or unmarried couples with large families could be assessed a higher income tax relative to married or unmarried couples who opt not to have children. The resultant revenue could be used on the state and federal levels to deal with family care issues for all Americans, especially among senior citizens in need of special care in their sunset years.)
6
@Wes It's absurd that people get tax breaks for prolific breeding when it's the people who have few or no kids who are less taxing of the system. It would be reasonable that, if one is less of a burden upon scarce resources, that their financial burden to society should also be lesser. It's sadistic that they're penalized instead. It's a transparent ploy to motivate people to breed more stock to be exploited in a society that refuses to offer competent government and universal franchise, human rights, equitable pay, universal healthcare and free or affordable access to quality education (among its many other shortfalls). The tax 'incentives" aren't worth the precarity of having children. It's heedless, at best, and abusive, at worst, to bring a person into a society that doesn't care about its constituents.
1
You’ve described my approach to sex, relationships and marriage to a tee, and I was born in the early 70’s. My boomer parents raised me to not rush into things, place education and career goals ahead of all else, and to believe that marriage was worth it only if I happened to meet the person I couldn’t imagine being without. These was not exactly the beliefs my parents’ contemporaries were instilling into their daughters in the conservative state I’m from, so I’m glad my folks went against the grain. I credit them with both my PhD *and* the 20th wedding anniversary I’m about to celebrate with the guy I still can’t imagine being without.
24
Hi, 30-year old female millennial here! I love being independent and nurturing deep meaningful longterm friendships--which, don't give me everything--but are in many ways, just as significant as relationships I've had in the past.
I don't feel particularly compelled to engage in a relationship, which resembles my boomer parents' marriage, which is marked by unhealthy emotional co-dependency, one-sided financial dependency, and eventual infidelity. I know not all relationships have to look like this--but in a patriarchy, I don't particularly like the idea of entering into any sort of marriage contract which is considered a social expectation. These are bad expectations!
40
How is it possible to base even anecdotal evidence on a group that just entered their 30s when it comes to "lasting love"? Let's circle back in 30 years and decide then.
11
"“When I first met my fiancé, I asked, ‘What’s your credit score?’ ” said Lucy Murray, 24. “In the long run, if we’re talking about marriage, buying a place together, having joint bank accounts and putting cars in each others’ names, those are big financial decisions that will be linked permanently for both of us. That’s why I ask right away.”
Yep, that approach would certainly pique my interest when contemplating a possible romantic relationship! As an alternative, perhaps Lucy could ask "What's your IQ, and tell me the last 10 books you've read." Because life is full of big decisions, so why risk spending it with someone who isn't at least as smart and well-informed as you are?
Fortunately for me, when my girlfriend and I started dating at 16, we didn't have credit scores to compare. When we married at 22, we had no money, so got married in my parents' backyard. But we had confidence in our ability to build a future together. 40 years of marriage later, we're still here.
Love isn't about algorithms or who owns what. It's about respect, compatibility, and character and personality traits which complement the other's. You know that person when you find them, irrespective of age or economic standing.
As for the apparent usage of the so-called "sex interview" because the traditional first date is "time-consuming and expensive," just grow up. You want to find a life partner without expending time or resources? Spare everyone and stick to video games.
33
As a person into his sixth decade, I have had much time to observe and experience first-hand human behavior and also to take a long view of it. I have found that happy people do not worry about other's sex or love lives. At all. But unhappy, unfulfilled, bitter, envious people worry a lot about what other people are doing and they aren't. It is always a good thing for a person to try to discover what the root of their unhappiness is.
18
@j-No Your penultimate sentence describes my ex-wife perfectly; 35 years after leaving me for another man, she still tracks me on the net to find things to complain about to my kids. I embarrass myself by experiencing schadenfreude from this.
As a millennial myself, these articles are always humorous to read. Yes, millennials are getting married later, if at all, but the vast majority of the stereotypes found within this piece are news to me ("friends with benefits," a perennial go to that rarely seems to exist in reality) as are the supposed reasons for them. It seems to me the main issue for lack of millennial copulation is simple: money, and the lack thereof. The entire economy has been gamed by the Boomers for the benefit of the Boomers. What's left? A handful of good job, and a forest of low-paying gig work without benefits. And as a cherry on top, they've managed to destroy the planet's future in the process. Let's all have kids!!!
62
@Daniel true facts
3
@Daniel. I think it is lazy to blame Boomers for all of the Millennial problems. I am a Boomer who chose not to have children because I could not provide a good enough lifestyle. Instead, I put myself through undergraduate and graduate school and worked very hard to advance in my industry. My husband came from greater poverty and earned his degrees through scholarships, parking cars, bartending and other menial work. He also worked very hard and sacrificed a great deal to reach a level of success. When we were developing our careers, we both endured tasks and elements of our jobs that were not at all rewarding. When I worked (recently retired) I was less than impressed with the work ethics and dedication of the Millennials, nor was I impressed with their ability to see the long game. My husband and I are liberal in our positions and resent being scapegoats.
3
@Daniel, I want to know what boomers call all their random hook-ups. No shortage of infidelity there.
I'm a millennial. I dated my husband for eight years before we married. We are both engineers who grew up poor. Our teens were spent in the recession. Our parents had kids young and are bitter, unhappy people.
Even with two engineering salaries and no dependents, one major health issue could put us deeply in debt. Climate change is real. Housing costs are insane. I don't even know what college tuition will look like in twenty years.
Why should we put the financial independence and working marriage we've worked so hard for at risk to bring yet another child into an overheated, overpopulated world? Instead we're using birth control.
57
It appears to me that young people today are coming up through an age of much uncertainty. The economy offers little protection from being laid off or shifting away from a skill set. Their parents got laid off and divorced. There’s violence and deceit all around them. I can’t imagine going to high school with the Spector a gunshooter showing up.
Given all of the above, one can see why they might emphasize different values then prior generations. Taking things slow seems prudent.
I wish them the best, and better than I ever had it and I admire their approach to things.
25
Interesting, yet seeking a formula, equation or template for relationship success is a blind ally. So are blanket statistical reports on a generation of little use. Love always extends beyond the formula or template.
4
Here's an old-fashioned idea.
Why not learn to be friends before you get intimate, and make sure you are both ready and eager before you get naked.
Looking for love in all the wrong places? Tame those hormones and look for people you like.
As for the judgment, mind your own business. With climate change coming for civilization, babies might not be such a great idea any more. But if you want 'em, make sure you really want 'em enough to stand a few decades of caring. Neglect is a lousy caregiving strategy.
10
@Susan Anderson Trust me, in today's dating environment, pursuing a friendship at first is a great way to stay friends, and only friends. It's not ideal, but an unfortunate byproduct of dating culture in 2019.
4
@Levi Del Mar
Agreed. It's considered deceitful if you start as friends and then ask for more later on.
Better to get the dating conversation out of the way early.
2
@Susan Anderson
You clearly didn't read the article.
Millennials are not haphazardly "getting naked" and rushing into sex. That's the entire point of the article. As an avalanche of research shows, Millennials are having less sex than any other U.S. generation since the 1890s. They are also having fewer children than any past generation in U.S. history.
Hence your 1980s-era talking points about the dangers of promiscuous sex and unwanted pregnancy are about 40 years out of date. It's actually the exact opposite that is the problem now in the year 2020.
16
I think having sex too soon really warps the "love" brain. It causes such euphoria in some cases, that it interferes with sane judgement. I do think waiting until you know a person is the better time to think about intimacy. And that can take many months, but it does send the message that you're serious and this is not a trivial relationship. Then, it's more appropriate to take the next step and live together.
14
@J. G. Smith
But what if after those months of time you find out that one party likes sex far more than the other or that one party has a sexual interest that is a deal breaker for the other?
You've just wasted many months on someone who will most likely fade out of your life soon after you've figured out you can never date.
7
As a happily married 24 year old Millennial, I cordially disagree that the only benefit of marriage over cohabiting is found in legal benefits. Marriage should obviously not be rushed into, as it is a decision that has the potential to affect your entire life, but there is so much more to marriage than signing a paper. There is nothing like being married to someone who shares your goals, and whose top priority is your well being and happiness. You grow together, learn together, screw up together, be vulnerable together, and together become a force for good. There is a lot of uncertainty, because you have to trust them more than anyone else with some of the deepest feelings, worries, and insecurities, but the resulting joy and intimacy (in all its forms) is worth it.
18
@Erin
You think there is uncertainty now? Wait until the woman is in her 30s; a woman changes drastically from her 20s to the following decades. Mazel tov.
7
Everybody is different. I lived with a woman for over 10 years and never did marry her. I met my wife and we talked about marriage after a few months, and got married at about 6 months, we were that sure about our feelings about each other, and it's been 15 years last month. Sometimes you just know........
11
The behaviour of us gen Xers was an anomaly in history created by birth control. One night stands, leaving home in our teens and free flowing alcohol was the norm when I grew up. My kids are more like my parents, staying at home longer and being sensible. They will have a more stable satisfying life overall
5
“When I first met my fiancé, I asked, ‘What’s your credit score?’ ” — that’s the SLOW road? Oy gvalt. Shades of Gary Shteyngart’s Super Sad True Love Story. Thank you for making me feel that I was not born too soon.
16
I think they’re missing out on mini golf, movies, drinks at bars with mediocre musicians, museums, bike ride, bowling, etc.
Every date is a chance to learn something about yourself and about what you might enjoy or not enjoy in another person in a low pressure fun setting.
15
@J D Kromkowski Token millennial here. My partner and I do most of those things, and have for years...but some nights we'd rather stay in, cook dinner, and play video games...we're very much on a slow and comfortable road
Back in the day......My generation....BB....before boomers...things were REAL different. Planned Parenthood wouldn’t give you birth control if you weren’t married. Men I barely knew were asking me to marry them. One of them insisted we get married after a month of dating. His pressure was relentless. I gave in. I guess I wanted to get away from my father. Married at 20. Divorced at 34 when I finally had the confidence to say NO.
39
Whatever works for “you” is good. So complex today.
2
Never married person here. Some people (like me) are remaining single because we want to and can. I say that's freedom, and progress. Why all the hand-wringing?
Maybe I will marry and/or have children one day, but neither is a life goal. Frankly, I have a good life, and my "opportunity cost" is too high to get married until and unless I find the right person. Too much risk, not enough prospect of a benefit to make it worth it unless I'm convinced that it's the right person to go through the rest of my life with (and to be perpetually legally entwined with)-. And whether or with whom I am having sex in the interim is no one else's business.
I realize and respect that other people are in a different situation or think differently, and I celebrate that. Life is full of trade-offs: single people have some benefits and burdens, and married people have others. Why should we all want the same package?
Do you want to force people to marry (and have children), whether they want to or not? Or to go back to stigmatizing them (us, me) for choosing not to?
As this article and numerous comments suggests, that stigma and the structural economic underpinnings that make it precarious to be single still exist, but to a much lesser extent than in the past--thank you, first and second wave feminists and their allies!
41
Most women these days do not want to put up with raising a boy into a man and then have children on top of it. On average, men still do not do their share of the labor even if their partner is working full time. There seems to be a rift between the strides that women have made and what we’re willing to put up with, and the attitudes of millennial men who seem unable to pull their weight both in terms of household duties and emotional ones. It is a common topic among women in their late 20s/early 30s about where the emotionally mature, financially stable men are. We don’t want to take care of you like your mother did. They seem to want to have their cake and eat it too and women are saying no thanks.
88
Plus ca change...How ironic, or how sensible that a younger generation is returning to the cautious ways of their grandparents. In the Great Depression people waited a long time to get married, or they eloped for lack of money. Next question: will the millenials start having larger families as was done in the distant past? My guess is, probably not.
5
I suspect a lot of this has to do with big changes in women's place in society.
Today's young women are getting more and more educated, they have financial independence, they have identities and ambitions, they derive self-worth from their professional achievements, and they demand partners that will enable them to pursue their best life.
No wonder that women aren't rushing to get married. The roots of the tradition are in a father handing his daughter off to a man who will provide for her while she raises his children -- it's a tradition that just doesn't make sense anymore. Gender norms are crumbling, and good riddance.
88
If I got married at 22, I'd be divorced now. It took time to find the right person for me and I absolutely think getting married in my late 20s was the right way to go. Marrying someone in my early 20s I've never lived with seems insane to me.
25
The young women I have spoken to about love, relationships and sex have also made a point of saying that the evolution and widespread growth of internet pornography is having a negative affect on the guys they interact with... they think it may be ruining a whole generation of boys' capacity for intimacy and healthy sex and loving relationships. Maybe this, along with other factors is having an impact as well.
53
@Name
Nonsense.
Spend less time trying to figure out why boys are different then girls, and more time learning to be an individual rather than just like all the other girls.
Its different for every person, and every respective relationship.
2
@Fred Armstrong 'Name' was not "trying to figure out why boys are different then(sic) girls", s/he was proposing a specific reason that may be contributing to this trend. Also, I'd like to highlight that girls do not try to be "like all the other girls" any more than boys try to be like all the other boys. All the best to you.
26
I maybe old fashioned, but I believe it takes time to build respect, trust and love for another person. These are the three necessary ingredients to building a loving relationship.
There is no need to hurry, take your time and savor the experience.
28
The first question(s) on the sex interview--Where do you see yourself in twenty minutes? Forty minutes? One hour?
29
@catamaran Thanks for the laugh!
2
I chuckled at the "sex interview" comment. At 50, newly-divorced after almost three decades of a stable-but-incredibly boring marriage to the only man I ever had sex with (I was a good Catholic girl after all), I added a sexual, feminist twist to Rosalind Russell's wise words: "Life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death."
Once my internal attitude towards sex shifted towards only enjoyment, I had a smorgasbord of men lining up. The ones that were still interesting after a first date got a "sex interview," where they either passed and got to spend more time with me, or failed and I was done. The banquet has been satisfying: younger, middle-aged, short, tall, skinny, chubby, bald, bearded, college-educated, blue-collar, white men and men of color--the diversity has been oh-so-American and has increased my appreciation for the opposite sex.
My four millennial children would probably disapprove of my sexual explorations and my lack of interest in commitment. Their father has remarried and settled into the same type of domestic life that we shared. Me? After moving back to my hometown and nurturing my parents through their final years, I gave myself another gift and fulfilled another long-denied desire: I moved to Chicago, found a place in the city and am feasting on everything this amazing city has to offer.
Let the banquet of life continue!
190
How very interesting. I’m going through a divorce after a 30 year marriage. I’ve never been with another person sexually. Today’s casual culture overwhelms me. I’m enjoying my women friends. I’m not interested in dating or getting together with anyone sexually at this time but your experience is intriguing to me. Thanks for sharing.
13
@Susan so happy for you! i'm 37, recently lost a parent i was caregiving for and since then, whether it was the grief or something else, felt completely freed and uninhibited. I turned down a marriage a few years ago, and since this past year, am embracing a more casual approach to pleasure. It's brought some very interesting people into my life, haha. I am ironically attracting much more interesting men I probably did not aim for before, as i was looking for boring stability. Who knows where this road will lead...maybe to a better marriage :)
2
@Susan so happy for you! i'm 37, recently lost a parent i was caregiving for and since then, whether it was the grief or something else, felt completely freed and uninhibited. I turned down a marriage a few years ago, and since this past year, am embracing a more casual approach to pleasure. It's brought some very interesting people into my life, haha. I am ironically attracting much more interesting men I probably did not aim for before, as i was looking for boring stability. Who knows where this road will lead...maybe to a better-suited marriage with sexual compatibility, something I used to downplay/repress before. My exploration has also taught me to learn more about my body; knowledge of female sexuality is so sorely lacking. So many women know so little about their feminine power.
Marriages are temporary in our society. The only reason to marry is to have children.
Children are expensive, requiring an outrageous amount of money and time (Facebook posts of every waking moment of the child’s develop don’t create themselves).
The world’s ecological future is bleak.
When the costs-benefits tilt in favor of not procreating, rational people won’t.
In this way, millennials are the smart generation.
39
The big difficulty I see with late first marriages is that the physical window on conception narrows as one hits 40. At that point the odds of conceptual mishap increase sharply. Couples who marry in their late thirties are fortunate to have one healthy child and often find themselves in a one and done situation.
11
"One and done" might benefit society immeasurably.
30
Or none might be perfectly fine.
13
I married someone I had met only once, after finding her picture in a Russian bride catalog. 23 blissful years later we still pinch each other every morning. Recall the joke in Annie Hall, when the Woody Allen character stops and asks a couple on the street how come they look like they love each other so effortlessly. They say "we're shallow!" Of course, I need to make it clear that there is nothing shallow about my wife.
15
Many of this generation is educated and not need dual income. They are not expected to marry early. As for a cell phone centric society - the Boomers are just as addicted.
16
Fits right in with a blog I wrote recently about how it is the baby boomers who are divorcing at higher rates—-in their 60s and 70s—compared to millennials.
9
I guess a positive is that postponing sex, love, or marriage will result in fewer offspring in a world with too many people already. Of course, poverty-stricken populations in the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia are still averaging 6-8 children per woman during her lifetime and even in childhood mortality rates between 120-300/1000 live births, populations will continue to grow throughout this century.
Much of what Ms. Fisher of the Kinsey Institute postulates are Just So Stories that sound plausible, but are pure speculation.
1
“It seems everyone is swept up in a very myopic understanding of sex, love and romance.” Absolutely true, and not only for millennials or those who seek to understand them. I've been happily married for 42 years and I couldn't give you three coherent sentences on the subject! And why should we expect to? It's emotional, not rational, it's biological as much as social.
12
The cost of weddings jumped out at me. This is a greed driven, cultural balloon that needs popping. If the millennials are rethinking this, bravo. The joy of a wedding is in the gathering of family and friends unburdened by the debt of a destination wedding in Punta Cana.
46
In new York city , often I see young couples sitting for a dinner date, nice food, taking nice pictures, nice clothes, but nobody is talking , they are just buried in their phones. To me millenials all look alike, no personality, no communication skills, dead boring. Nobody worth remembering, because their life only exists on their phones. Life is about having remarkable experiences sometimes high sometimes low, however imperfect it maybe. Ill take a life of struggle with my sweet love any day over a plastic love.
35
@WD I think this is a very big generalization. As a millenial, sure we do have phones, but any time my friends and I get together, we make it a point to keep phones away while we are at dinner or whatever it is to have a chance to catch up and engage with one another. Additionally, my parents are baby boomers and if anything, they are on their phone more than I am.
9
I hardly remember my 3 years at university in England
As George Best said, the three most important things in life are football, women and alcohol. But not necessarily in that order
And I’d do it all over again. These millennials will never know what they’ve missed
10
What did he say are the three best things in life for women?
34
As an "old millenial," I know a few things about this, at least as it pertains to middle class educated millenials:
High school and college were WAY more about extremely hard work than youthful experimentation for many of us. 2008 made it hard to gain traction at the beginning of our careers, even with our insane work ethics. Because of these things, we spent our 20s letting loose with our friends as cheaply as possible, and doubting the structures our parents laid out for us... and you know what? We liked it.
As we move into the phase of our lives when people typically settle down, have kids, buy houses, etc — not all of us are on board. And even as we want meaningful relationships, careers, and lives, we want agency to reimagine those things. Sometimes the screens are even helping us (I met my SO of two years on Tinder, of all things.)
This is fine, and good, and society is far from crumbling — it is just changing. In fact, many of us don't over-prioritize the couple over every other relationship as severely as those older than us. This is healthy.
31
Uh, only passing mention of how broke we are?
Wages have not kept up with cost of living and the route to middle class is a lot murkier. My parents generation could go to school, get an English degree, drive out to California without a job lined up, and end up working at a tech company.
The experience of myself and my peers has been vastly different. Its "gee how come you don't like this entry level job that doesn't pay enough to make the debt worth it?"
53
@NateF
You mean the entry-level job that requires a Master's degree, PhD. preferred plus 4 years experience, starting pay $18/hr. Must be bilingual in Latin, though biblical Hebrew will be considered. Bi-weekly drug test and polygraph will be administered at random, no history of marijuana use, even if you didn't inhale, in the past 10 years. Rotating 14-hour shifts, holidays and weekends mandatory, must be willing to relocate, especially during the winter months. Six month probationary period before eligible for benefits.
Don't even think about finding a lover...you're cat will leave you due to neglect.
Boy am I glad I got that advanced degree in a STEM field...molecular nano-biotech engineering sure came in handy for that job as a "green" housekeeper for the family with the elevator that opens underwater into their olympic sized swimming pool.
88
From what I can tell, it’s not just the millennials who are having less sex, it’s a fair number of boomers as well. Why? A number of reasons : Internet dating sites are exhausting; politics has polarized us and many won’t date across the political spectrum; some don’t want the drama that comes with dating - it’s a little too tiring at this age; its hard to find someone in the same socio-economic-educational class with similar interests; some folks are in a full-time relationship with their pets and are not emotionally available; some are too newly divorced/widowed (it takes around five years after twenty-five years of marriage to recover); etc.
Yeah, no sex happening here. And while I’d prefer it otherwise, it is what it is.
30
@61 And Celibate "full-time relationship with their pets" so real 😂
27
If you haven’t found someone you aren’t looking. At age 80 I found literally dozens of promising possibilities online. I found the free sites, like POF, as good or even better than the paid sites, like eHarmony. Within two months I found a good match and now am in a nice relationship.
Of course, building a relationship takes work and is an ongoing process. But if you embrace the new technology you no longer need to be alone.
4
@61 And Celibate. Plus, there's the sad facts that by the time we reach our early 60s, mortality has thinned the ranks of men which leaves women in over-supply; due to the law of supply and demand the surviving old men can obtain a younger woman, which only worsens the shortage of males for older gals;a significant portion of the guys are impotent (meds don't work well for all).
7
It is hard to generalize when it comes to courtship. My life experience (as a boomer) led me to conclude that it is wise not to have sex with a person whom you find attractive unless you know *and* like them. Saves time, money and health.
22
"sex interview"?? Umm, who is doing that? Sounds like some academic's fantasy to me not a real cultural phenomena
40
In some cultures an arranged marriage is like a slow road to a matched love.
5
@Albanywala
And some people that buy lottery tickets win money too..
9
That’s a sweet idea. I’d say possibly, but only if the arrangement is made after both partners are over 26, have good jobs and education and are debt-free. If the male is significantly older than the female, than the woman will never to be allowed to be equal; that’s not love, that’s entrapment.
11
@Albanywala The west needs to adopt a version of arranged marriage. I frequently visit India and find that Indians are lucky to have that option (providing it's consensual, both are done with their studies are at a good place in their lives). It's a no nonsense approach. All cards laid on the table with both parties on the same page about what they want from the beginning. I find we waste a lot of time dating to end up still single. Someone needs to come up with a similar concept here.
3
I met my wife at a University dance 52 years ago. She was 16, I was 20. We married 2 1/2 years later. I don’t regret a single minute.
If I could, I would immediately sign up for another 52 years.
48
And how does your wife feel, honestly, I wonder? 18 is so young to get married, you were at least 22. If my little sister had had a 20 year old after her at 16, I would have been calling the police.
7
I’m a Boomer with 3 children in their twenties. This article really rings true to me, but seems to ignore the big disparity between college grads and non-college grads. I’d love to see the stats, but it seems that, while marriage is delayed, there is a meaningful percentage of the non-college population having children out of wedlock, and then Dad moves on without providing support or involvement. There often seems to be no sense of obligation to the children, and poor single Moms are faced with a lifelong struggle, not to mention the very real struggles for children in poverty. I realize that the concept of a traditional family is changing, and that’s a good thing, but boys need to become men and live up to their obligations. Tough economy? Too bad. It’s always been tough. Support your kids Dad. They need you.
101
Mandatory vasectomies for boys at 16 which can be reversed in adulthood when the boys are in stable careers sounds reasonable.
11
@Rachel, AE, Sharon: Your commitment may be deep, and the institution of marriage "old fashioned" or "a silly piece of paper" but, believe me, the legal rights and privileges marriage endows are a solid reason to marry someone you care deeply for and believe you will stay with forever. Though some legal rights/benefits are slowly being endowed without marriage, others simply aren't. Marriage also makes it so much easier to direct care for a beloved partner, obtain benefits after death, etc. Something to consider if you are as committed to your partner as you say.
28
Why would you walk down the aisle without knowing what you had? People actually did that?
I think people aren't having as much sex as they used to because that's exactly the way women want it. Lower instances of STI's and unwanted pregnancies, can't argue with that.
26
@C. M. Jones
Yes, I was wondering how much women's gains in equality and attention on consent is playing into these numbers.
4
We are evolved to cope with hunting and gathering on the African savanna, by genes that encourage us to leverage resources early including mates. This has resulted in a variety of gotchas to having children later in life - particularly de novo mutations, which lead to mental health problems and which continue in the germ line.
We are evolved to cope with hunting and gathering on the African savanna, by genes that encourage us to leverage resources early including mates. This has resulted in a variety of gotchas to having children later in life - particularly de novo mutations, which lead to mental health problems and which continue in the germ line.
1
The answer is simple. Millenials cannot afford to move out of their parents house.
36
@Chris. They can’t afford to move out of their parents’ house because they (and their parents) feel that they are entitled to start their lives at their parents’ standard of living, as opposed to starting at the bottom, like everybody else. We GenXers also came of age during recessions and couldn’t get well paying jobs, but there wasn’t any sense of national angst about us (we were told to flip burgers, jobs deemed to be beneath that of precious little millennials).
Cue the world’s smallest violin.
Don’t need to look at these younger generations for guidance in anything, thanks.
16
@Barbara
Minimum wage used to be a living wage, it has been decreasing compared to cost of living for decades. I know a lot of young people who live at home so that they can help pay their boomer parents' bills, after they lost jobs, had medical emergencies resulting in massive debt, etc. It's not a one way street. I'd rather people live at home and save money than rack up credit card debt just to appear "on track" to the outside world.
22
@Barbara Ageist much? Certainly uninformed—take a look at housing costs alone, and tell us how a person of any age could support themselves flipping burgers, even with a houseful of roommates. You had it easier than you knew, precious.
11
As the parent of a millennial, I hear more about the implications of marriage and children than about love. My child and his friends have friends and romances. But their concerns about relationships, love, marriage and mostly reproduction orbit around their anxiety about the physical future of the world. Why would they bring children into a world they believe will be under water and out of clean air during their lifetimes? They also blame the climactic ruination of the world on their boomer parents, who did nothing when they could have to check it. So even their loving families and the love showered on them is seen as rather destructive to the world as a whole. It's not just about romance and taking their time, it's also about profound pessimism. They are the very antithesis of Alfred E. Newman; they worry all the time.
99
I respect Dr. Fisher's study of intimacy, along with the work of her contemporaries and the views of all those who dedicated their interest in Human Nature - specifically Love - which participated in the creation of what we term anthropology, but question if matters of the heart can be defined by a science. As an ardent observer, and participant, I believe one's interest in healthy relationship may be best served with a balance of emotion and logic, but when uncertain, I have always found it most satisfying to follow the heart. If Love is indeed the unique, timeless quality of the Social Animal, then perhaps we should refrain from the chronic need to assess its success, and just enjoy the moments of reward.
However, learning is most effective through positive examples and instruction, and on the topic of Love there is little to no universally formalized guidance. We've regarded those studies that offer expression and example of Love - Music and Art - as insignificant and eliminated their existence from elementary grades when children are most receptive.
I believe we are all inherently designed to Love; it is both a gift and an essential for survival. We should treat it as such, every day, by being grateful for the joy it provides and avoid the temptation to control its power and purpose.
Love.
5
As a millennial myself, I fell in love at age 20 with an older partner. I was told multiple times, by well meaning friends, relatives, and the media that I was to young to fall in love. I was told to explore the world, get to know "myself", have more life experience, prioritize my career. Thank god I didn't listen to any of them. The love and compatibility I have with my partner is something I will never come close to experiencing again. Against all advice, I made my Partner and our love a priority. I have never regretted that decision.
But it was a hard and unpopular decision to make. Against the background of all the well meaning advice I thought I was doing something wrong. Reading through these comments, I am sure someone will call me "plain" or "uninspired." The thing is I never once missed out on any of those life events I was encouraged to do. I have traveled, grown my career, experienced life and come to understand myself and shared it all with an amazing human being. I've watched many millennials who give up on love because it doesn't fit into their plan or love comes at an inconvenient time. I don't blame them. Trusting someone to the point of changing one's very thoughtful and painstakingly made plans is not an easy decision, especially when everyone else is telling you not too.
36
I don’t like how STIs and unplanned pregnancies were overlooked in this article. I am a millennial woman, and I am careful about who I have sex with because many men (in my experience) are not interested in having safe sex which is nonnegotiable for me.
73
@Christi. Very good point. If 34 percent of young people have sex “before” the first date — and a very interesting discussion could be had here on what constitutes a date — surely some of that is associated with awkwardness in discussing contraception and STIs, and leads to unwanted outcomes. It also tends to reward a certain sort of individual, who is very outgoing and uninhibited. Those who are quieter and more reserved, or who are disinclined to have sex with strangers, are shut out of ever getting anywhere with this method. I think what actually happens is a splitting into two groups: one who does nothing at all, including the much maligned “incel” category, and the very attractive and outgoing, who may benefit from all the attention.
6
Hmm...decades of watching, being caught up in busted marriages, a rise of sexually transmitted diseases, many of which were once gone, but are on the rise and resistant to treatment, lower incomes, lousy living choices, and an online culture that is all over the place about sexual activity being shameful or a free expression. One day someone is slut-shamed for doing nothing but showing cleavage in a "private" selfie, the next its discovered a porn actress is also in their senior AP math class. which is deemed empowering!
I'd say the Boomers bred confusion and wariness into their progeny. I'd say despite everything we blame the Millennial's for, most is not their direct fault...rather their Boomer parents!
Look at Boomers, a serious look. They messed everything up! They started a few revolutions, then suddenly dropped the placards, went home and built their McMansions and bought gas guzzling SUVs. Then handed their children every thing they demanded, and many they didn't want. Made them accept participation awards over real ones. Made them play on rubberized playgrounds, slathered them in anti-bacteria gels, so their immune systems remained immature. Made after school activities their entre into colleges they cant afford.
Their marriages broke up like arctic ice, which they helped hasten. Their business behaviors were godawful, sexist and racist and anti-employee. They reneged on their care for Mother Nature, and ravished her no matter the costs.
Boomers are to blame.
28
@Boregard Rubberized playgrounds don’t affect one’s immune system. They keep kids from breaking their bones. Where do you get your information?
3
@Deedee I believe he's comparing the playground to generally unsupervised play in the dirt or what have you. My kids always came home much dirtier when they were roaming the neighborhood versus when I would take them to the playground full of wood chips and rubber. At least that's my take. And we never used hand sanitizer in my house.
3
Really Shallow to blame a group of about 50 million individuals for every perceived problem in humanity. Life is a continuum and attempting to create artificial zones of responsibility based on age is silly.
28
I’d be interested to hear more about people in their 40s and 50s who have loved and lost, who have gained perspective, careers and families who help guide their decisions, who realize that life is short and needs to be celebrated, formal commitments or not.
I have found a sense of urgency from the realization that life is precious and ends sooner than we think. Celebrate love, celebrate connection!
Marriage is always a celebration of love. But so are other means of expression. Let’s not focus on this institution at the expense of a richer understanding of the many forms of love which we have in the 21st century
31
I hear it's hard to regret anything that has led to the children you have and love, including marriages that don't last. We waited almost 10 years before having children and our children are having children while in their thirties.
I feel I was too young to get married at 24, too needy, too longing for someone to complete me. I'm lucky that my husband and I are vulnerable/depressed enough and also stubborn enough not to give up and that our inner work has led to closeness and greater maturity.
I feel that the goal of real living is fullness and integrity rather than happiness or promises made that can't begin to be predicted well. I'm glad for this generation that wants to wait and can. I think it's important to add that any amount of waiting and measuring of finances won't close off a relationship to bumps. Love is full of ambivalence, little losses and the bigger losses of illness and death.
It's hard to grow up but I see this is the only way for people to grow in a relationship. And that is the way to make it authentic and not calculated like the answer to a trivia question. I'd say there is a delicate balance between having things in greater order and losing the surprises that will be part of any connections that evolve.
Congratulations on the opportunities for thoughtfulness, and a bit more of growing up beforehand.
29
I just reread all of these responses; I suppose because the subject is important. But something's missing from the discussion.
When we got married at 19 we made a vow to each other that we'd stay married until death. When our kids were young, a few times we were asked by them, because they had friends whose parents were divorced or divorcing, "will you ever get divorced?" We promised them we never would.
At 52 years of marriage we have hope of making it to death.
We are not alone. We have many, many friends with such long marriages. We have many friends who haven't made it. Our children have long marriages, the first is at 30 years this summer.
You can't predict life, you can't calculate it. But you can live it. If you do and fail at part of it, so be it. You keep living. If you don't do it, you've decided to fail before you jump in.
24
@Longue Carabine
Many of us made pacts at 19. Most of those pacts were made in haste and immaturity.There is no law, natural or god-granted (despite the priests rules) that tells us we're beholden to those silly pacts.
Hey,it worked for you. Its not a miracle, you're not extra special. In fact, I'd say without any observation, you are mundane and plain. And maybe never had much going for either of you. No sparks,no desires for more then what you could see and reach for.
11
@Boregard
This is always the excuse made by those of the unethical nature. Tear down someone else because you yourself aren't happy with your decisions.
23
The problem w marriage statistics is that they don’t discern between good marriages and bad ones. Divorce statistics don’t either—lots of people stay in unhappy marriages. I wonder if getting married later in life leads to happier marriages.
I would have loved to have gotten married in my 20s, but I am SO glad I didn’t marry one of the guys I was dating back then. I had to do some growing up before being in a place to be in a great relationship, and besides, sometimes it just takes awhile to find the right match. I got married at 31 and had kids at 33, 36, and 39. Would have been nice to have done all that 5 yrs or so earlier, but I am in a marriage a million times stronger than I would have been if I had married the one of the guys I dated in my mid twenties. I also think I am a better spouse than I would have been had I married younger.
50
@Itsy This! Also, developing on your comment, the statistics don't catch the difference between a single (/non-married person) who wishes to be in a relationship and one who leads a fulfilling life; two statistically persons can be statistically similar while one is unhappy longing for a partner and a family while the other is happy focusing on a group of friends, taking care of extended family, or in some other way living a happy life knowing that a marriage wouldn't add to their happiness.
Sometimes these statistics make us focus on the wrong things =(
8
This was really cool to learn about!
4
Every relationship is different. I met my husband on a Monday moved in with him one week later. We were married ( to please my parents) 3 months later and are still living happily and will celebrate 50 years together next April.
27
@Flora
It is so interesting that sometimes the misbegotten requirements of parents can have happy endings! I am so happy for you and yours.
2
If this were the case, that research may suggest dating someone longer and marrying at a later age leads to a stronger marriage, I'm wondering if it controls for millennials who have already married and divorced. I have met a lot of fellow millennials who, now in their late 20s to mid 30s, married and divorced while in their 20s. A few have remarried while most claim to want to never marry again or at best feel highly ambivalent about marriage.
3
The old adage was - Women LOVE sex - Men love SEX.
Women would spend time deciding if they were in LOVE before they'd think about having sex.
Men would have to have SEX before they could decide if they would fall in love.
Oh - WWII story from Australia when US troops were stationed or visiting here.
Local girls would go out with the US guys. Each side would return to tell their friends that the other person was 'fast' !
How so ? Turns out the Australian girls were accustomed to kissing on the first date, then holding out a long time before agreeing to sex.
The US guys were accustomed to girls holding out a long time before they allowed the first kiss - which was also a signal they were ready to have sex.
So - end of first date, the girl would allow a polite kiss - the guy would think 'wow - all my xmas's have come at once !' and promptly ravish her.
Both would come away - huh - that was faster that I was expecting ... hmmm !
2
Classic misinterpretation, one that keeps bubbling to the top.
The situation during high stress and indiscriminate mixing of disparate cultural elements without time for a more appropriate annealing is difficult to deconstruct, but there is plenty of information available about the mid-century experiences of men and women caught up in global conflict.
The partial description doesn’t represent the modern mating behavioral strategy, long term pair bonding activity the article describes in the stats of millennials looking for mates.
Rather, what’s being described is a moosh-mash of human primitive strategy behaviors, the kind of ‘relationship’ behavior that millennials are apparently abandoning.
There is no reliable evidence we’ve been able to discover that supports the claim that females anywhere looking to build a relationship ever signaled readiness to engage in sex by offering the first kiss.
The idea that males everywhere might act on any such contact as if such an offer had been made is well documented, however. Less well documented, but still evident, is that most males who act as if they had been invited in such situations are willing to admit privately they had crossed a line knowingly.
Take away the stress of the times and situation, and the willingness to make such admissions apparently tends to decrease. The behavior, however, does not.
—T&K
5
@Tom and Kay Rogers well said ! I would like to see atleast 1 mellinial who can write so well and from experience ...
Based on my research on late Millennials and Gen Z if I were a young person today here's why I might have a hard time developing trust and might be extra cautious before stepping into a multi-decade contract with another human:
- If I were told to rack up a lot of debt in college because the jobs necessary to live well AND reimburse that debt would come. (this is the most college educated generation in history).
- If I were told to trust Congress to work things out for the better of the country. (Millennials and Gen Z from both sides hold firm to the idea that problems can be solved through dialogue and government should make people's lives better).
- If I were told by leaders to be wary of people of color, LGBT and gender fluid folks ( the most ethnically diverse, the most "post-gay" of any generation - they literally don't understand why we need men's and women's clothing departments).
- If I were told by leaders of my country that there's nothing wrong with the planet (both right and left agree global warming is man made)
- If parents keep showing me marriage is only reliable 50% of the time (Studies show young people no longer see divorce as a failure but simply the end of a chapter).
A small group of people own the most beautiful places in the country and the most money, negatively affect start ups, influence policy through legal bribes and appear quite intent on setting things up to keep it that way. They're not under 35.
I'd be wary of other humans too.
12
@gregolio; well said! I'd just add that this strategy is one my current spouse and I used. We agree we would have mistrusted and avoided each other before we matured enough to see the strengths in diversity rather than homogeneity. The lies, corruption, and false faces of my family's religion, gatherings, and teachings still haunt my life.
2
Let’s move on from the Dark Ages ... what is marriage, a religious contract, a social contract ... it has lost meaning for most of us. I’m sorry, but what really matters is what goes down between two people. The rest is mere artifice. I’ve raised two kids, one while married, one not. I know of what I speak.
8
As a millennial, I say, what's the issue? Most of my friends are cautious after observing our own parents' complicated marriages. Many of us are are putting in a lot of self-work to break unhealthy patterns in ourselves from our upbringings and general socialization. This awareness will prove invaluable for the rest our lives. We are working on loving ourselves, our loved ones, and romantic partners, before jumping into other big commitments. No issue here!
48
@Chelsie The effect of toxic upbringings is something that isn't much discussed. How many of us came from homes with helicopter parents, or conditional love (parents living vicariously through us, only accepting us in our successes) or any number of other situations? You don't rush and get married in order to solve all your emotional and mental anxieties. So many of our parents needed that sort of self-introspection and never got it because of the pressure to get married. They either divorced 20 years down the line, or their marriages are miserable.
It's not exactly a radical concept for us to want to do better.
14
Why do people feel they must have children immediately? Live some. Travel some. Save money. Remember, too many children will keep you poor.
39
@pb too many children are bad for the planet as well
19
@pb. People don’t feel they must have children immediately. But it is worth remembering that women go through menopause, and therefore cannot so easily delay until they are 45 or 65 to begin thinking about kids.
3
@Sharon Which children exactly are bad for the planet? And how exactly do you propose to get rid of them?
Millennials see marriage as a contract with the State and a means of control, and this generation has no interest in such hackneyed "traditions". Good on them!
17
Millennials aren’t having as much sex because women now have more agency. They aren’t as pressured as their previous peers. Why was this overlooked in the article?
39
@Amon. So women don’t like sex?
1
You have to leave your house and tiny screens and actually meet people to find a mate.
24
@Bonnie Balanda
@Bonnie Balanda
Bonnie, millenials are too busy creating start-up companies right from their tiny screens to care about "meeting people to find a mate". As a millenial myself, I find it funny how easy older generations are to dismiss our capabilities simply because we are in the digital age. We shouldn't ignore the phenomenal amount of resources and accessibility we have to network and create connections in beneficial ways. Such as using applications like Bumble Biz, LinkedIn and our personal platforms for self-expressions. We're expanding with the times and if we use it to our advantage, we might just find a "mate" through the tips of our fingers. You find it sad, but I find it fascinating. It truly depends on how you use or abuse digital media.
6
Millennials' lives are centered around the small screen of their iStrain devices, where the less awesome aspects of life, such as having to deal with other people vis a vis, can be deleted, blocked, or photoshopped. And I doubt the frequently cited "less sex" statistic includes five-finger discounts. As for the having fewer children part, good!
Two or three generations ago, youngsters were sent to what was called dancing school, weekly practice sessions in social graces for which the kids wore grownup clothes. Dancing school fell from favor as elitist, snobbish, and even racist. Anyway, when your entire life pivots around tech toys, and your wardrobe involves little more than jeans and T-shirts, who needs manners?
9
An institution from "two or three" generations ago, elitist, snobbish, and "even" racist? Impossible. As for your defense of it, well, who needs manners?
Gen Xer here who thinks the millennial approach to relationships makes perfect sense. If they are saving their sexual encounters for partners they think they might have a future with, good for them. Why waste a lot of time on relationships that are going nowhere, or invest a lot of time in a serious relationship when you know you are way too young to get married?
19
@APB. The article suggests it is the reverse: they have sex more freely than they get in a relationship.
2
Perhaps the younger generation is looking at 2 things:
Successful marriages their parents had and...
Unsuccessful marriages their parents had.
My marriage is an unqualified success. We've known each other 34 years and married 32 years (next month). Both sets of our parents had successful marriages ending only in death after 56 and 60 years.
Other members of my family have had both successful and unsuccessful marriages (One cousin's first marriage failed and his second never happened--but they were together 37 years until death took his not-wife).
50% of marriages succeed and the other 50% fail. I've known and worked with a lot of people from India and other nations where "arranged marriages" still exist...and they succeed and fail at the exact rate as "love" marriages.
One couple I know, both originally from India, had 2 DREADFUL arranged marriages that failed, yet this one, "arranged" (wink, wink) has been the one both wanted.
My kids see us, and their grandparents, and, I believe, want the same.
It's not about "tradition" or "family" or societal pressures. It's about finding the person you can love, trust, and share the rest of your life with, grow old with, and, finally die with.
Maybe they are just smarter than we and our parents were.
Maybe?
7
@Dadof2
I think it's clear that Homo sapiens have had the same intelligence for innumerable generations. I'm a baby boomer, but I'm not smarter that Euclid or Newton, or my dad for that matter. My millennial grandchildren are smart, but not smarter than me!
3
Okay, except our work indicates that we all are getting smarter; it’s a difficult characteristic to assess, for two reasons. We’re using the instrument we’re trying to measure to do the measurement, and there are hidden aspects of normal conscious brain function that work to hide some of that function.
So guess what those hidden aspects of our brains’ normal operation mainly address? Right, mating behavior.
We all have a built-in blindness to certain details that makes it seem as if we haven’t gotten one iota smarter about the behaviors the article describes. Understanding what’s going on without being able to see all the details makes it difficult or impossible to form an opinion, or plan, or just feel like anything about one’s situation makes sense.
The first clue we had that our brains are improving (and have been for some time) came from identifying two broadly significant and different ways that information is organized. Our working hypothesis is that the difference began to be used about the same time as written language arose; the advantages of the ‘smarter’ organization (not an accurate description) appear to be directly applicable to breaking through those built-in brain functions meant to keep us from messing about with the status quo in mating.
As such, we can assume it is the females of the species we have to thank for it.
—T&K
1
@Longue Carabine - "smarter than I"
4
I did not go looking for social status -- this is one thing I see happening more today (it's always been around to a degree). Political views / eduction / job / money .... none of those things mattered when I was dating .. married someone very different. We celebrate 26 years this month.
You can't quantify ... it's quantity. Get out there and meet people
2
The way our brains work make it impossible to not look for status; we all possess a mechanism that classifies another individual in approximately three seconds upon setting eyes on him/her. If your relationship seems to have skipped the step of status seeking, it’s likely that you’re matched. This is the primary purpose of the status mechanism, to serve as a match finder for the modern mating strategy, long term pair bonding.
The things is, we’re talking real status here. The obsession with so-called trappings of status, beemers, conspicuous consumption, fashion, whatever, all of these are feeble attempts to break the tyranny of the implicit status hierarchy we are born into, defined by genetics and only modified by playing down, not up.
Even then, the result isn’t necessarily permanent. A female consciously or subconsciously suppressing her status level, that is, presenting herself as being of lower status than that her genetic makeup defines, is still identifiable as being approximately of her original level.
As such, she may be targeted. Or not; there are a wide variety of responses to the mating behavior for which true status serves as a metric, and nothing prevents an individual from playing a role without fail, forever.
The built-in status evaluator doesn’t lie, though, which is why it’s impossible to convincingly play up to a higher status. Everyone can see it’s not so.
Old stuff, this. First studied in the Fifties. —T&K
2
We should add a tip of the hat to the ultimate faux status indicator, the credit score.
Real status indicates fitness to provide strong nurturing over at least two generations. It’s indicators (the visual details that are interpreted by the internal status evaluator) are co-selected traits, many of which play a central role in cultural standards of beauty and attractiveness in a potential mate.
Clearly, credit score doesn’t fit the picture, even if you want to stretch a point and claim that it represents a certain level of ability to provide a nurturing environment. Nurturing is not about such low level concerns; we all have plenty of drives and impulses to satisfy those needs, easily demonstrable and as such not generally a part of the status evaluation process.
Besides, the playup of credit score importance is a classic, intentionally manipulative advertising on the part of an industry. It’s overblown to a fault, and not relevant for at least that aspect of it. —T&K
1
Can you say modern strategy?
One of the deepest hallmarks of the modern human behavioral strategy for mating is the development of a brain structure that a friend of ours dubbed an ‘intimately converged web’.
Essentially, this is a neural model of the reality shared by two people in a long term committed relationship that converges on identical form, far more closely detailed than the normal internal model of reality, which is pretty close to identical in all of us already. We might not agree about certain things, but we can all usually get on a bus without somebody getting it tragically wrong. (Just an example.)
The payoff of a relationship that supports an ICW is a closeness that makes most of it easy, even during trying times. This is the source of that seemingly magical ability some couples will display in which they can apparently read each others’ thoughts, even at a distance.
The drawback is that state of convergence, which requires a long, slow orbiting before the shared neural model begins to synchronize at the deepest levels. As many ‘millennials’ have found, it’s well worth the effort, and the time it can take.
Incidentally, the modern human mating strategy, commonly referred to as ‘long term pair bonding’, was studied in depth as far back as the early fifties. It was part of the standard curriculum we were presented on the late sixties. The relevance of the shared neural models had to wait for more recent understanding of the brain.
—T&K
3
@Tom and Kay Rogers
Say what?
"As far back as the early '50s"...you mean when dinosaurs roamed the earth?
(I was there; they didn't...)
@Tom and Kay Rogers, I have enjoyed reading your comments more than the article itself!! Kindly share any books or articles you may have written. I do hope you can contribute to writing at nytimes .
Can you say modern strategy?
One of the deepest hallmarks of the modern human behavioral strategy for mating is the development of a brain structure that a friend of ours dubbed an ‘intimately converged web’.
Essentially, this is a neural model of the reality shared by two people in a long term committed relationship that converges on identical form, far more closely detailed than the normal internal model of reality, which is pretty close to identical in all of us already. We might not agree about certain things, but we can all usually get on a bus without somebody getting it tragically wrong. (Just an example.)
The payoff of a relationship that supports an ICW is a closeness that makes most of it easy, even during trying times. This is the source of that seemingly magical ability some couples will display in which they can apparently read each others’ thoughts, even at a distance.
The drawback is that state of convergence, which requires a long, slow orbiting before the shared neural model begins to synchronize at the deepest levels. As many ‘millennials’ have found, it’s well worth the effort, and the time it can take.
Incidentally, the modern human mating strategy, commonly referred to as ‘long term pair bonding’, was studied in depth as far back as the early fifties. It was part of the standard curriculum we were presented on the late sixties. The relevance of the shared neural models had to wait for more recent understanding of the brain.
—T&K
Most people who fall in love want to get married - most but not all, I admit. Maybe for this cohort, this is a case of making perfect the enemy of good.
1
It's probably more because everyone's broke with 5 or 6 figure student loans. What's the point of making things worse by wedding yourself to more debt?
11
This may be a little too unemotional, but I think that the cost of living space and the endless demands of work have more to do with why millennials aren't having children or getting married or even having much sex. The pressure they are under is ten times what I had to face at their age, when housing was relatively cheap and work more readily available. Why, teachers and journalists could actually afford to live in Manhattan! A relationship? Who has the time now? Try Tinder. And having a family in the city? Do you have any idea what that would cost? First, let me finish paying off my student loan...
29
I do app dating. Most women under forty seem to want a man over 6' 2". I think many women are holding out for their dream man. I think it might be enforced celibacy/solitude. These women have dating opportunities, but are holding out for a "perfect" mate. They might text with a "perfect" man for months without meeting him. He's just keeping them in his orbit. My sense is that a bunch of "ideal" men are juggling a large number of single women. This type of harem building might reduce the number of marriages and actual dates. A hopeful women might think she's in a relationship with an "ideal" man even though they've never met, because they've texted a lot.
Look at this topic, but assume that there are 4 women for every man. Would the scarcity of men cause the reduction in sex and marriages that have been noticed by social scientists? Of course, there are as many men as there are women, but many women seem to want only men who are tall, successful, highly educated, fit, charming, and socially connected. That's only a small portion of available men.
4
@Anti-Marx - I do online dating too, I’m under 40, and I don’t just want a guy who’s over 6’ 2”. I want a nice, stable, good man who wants a serious relationship and perhaps children. Most of the men on these apps, even the ones within spitting distance of 40, don’t want that. They still want to bounce around and goof off.
I can’t speak for all women, but I’m not holding out for a “dream man”. I’m holding out for an adult.
99
I concur, Lindsay. Based on observing my adult kids' experiences (thirtysomethings), most fellas in my area are too immature and fickle to consider getting serious in a relationship, and many are on the same dating sites for years! Yes to sex, no to anything deeper. Yes, some women just seem to want to fool around too, but the vast majority of the neverending pool of fickle or immature singles are guys.
6
@Anti-Marx
Cause God knows men don’t judge women by their looks.
13
I’m an old millennial. In my experience, this phenomenon is driven by liberal MEN. I literally just had a 37 year old man tell me that he wants to date 5 years before he marries, but he also wants children. He freely admits that this has ended multiple relationships in his 30s but insists that “lots of women have babies in their 40s”
Most women my age were happy to date in their 20s but want to be married around age 30 so you can have babies before 35. If you start dating after 30, the desired timeline compresses. Almost every couple I know, the woman has wanted commitment and marriage long before the man.
Getting to know each other is well and good but sometimes big life steps take a push and while women still have the push of biology, men don’t. The people who lose in this are women
28
@Anna - I had someone more or less tell me this as well, and he is already in his late 30s. When these guys are finally ready at 45, they aren’t going to be settling down with women the same age, not if they want families, and these guys do; rather, they’re going to be settling down with younger women who can provide them kids without excessive difficulty or serious intervention. I saw this first-hand with my uncle, who was in relationships for years before finally marrying at nearly 50. His wife was 35, and she gave birth to my cousin a year after the wedding.
The fact that many of today’s 30-something men have goals or things they want to do before getting married is one thing; the fact that they’re surprised women their own age won’t wait for them while they do it, or the fact that they think a woman in her 40s can easily have as many kids as she wants is something else, and that something isn’t at all realistic. I don’t know if I’ll end up having children but it’s a hope for me and, at 37, I’m not wasting any time with guys who say they aren’t going to be “ready” for another half-decade. I’m not sacrificing any potential for having a good man in my life and children because I waited for some overgrown kid to get his act together.
39
@Lindsay K Could this not be a plus for millennial women who - it seems from my practice in psychotherapy - tend to prefer older, more reliable men?
2
@gregolio - Honestly, I would have no problem dating a 40-something man right now, provided he had his act together. Some of the 40-something guys I'm encountering online dating don't, however. Some are still acting like they're 25 and have all the time in the world. It's really bizarre the numbers of fully adult men who aren't grown up, but I'm sure they're also encountering wacky women on their side of things. However, there's always hope that the right person is out there for everyone. It only takes hitting it off with one person to form a great relationship.
That being said, some of the more stable 40-something guys I've encountered online dating are divorced with kids and don't want any more children. Dating a divorced man with kids is not an issue for me, but I would like to also have my own child if at all possible. I have no problem being a stepmother down the road, but I'd like to be a mother too. I completely understand why these guys would not want more children, particularly if they already have several, but I'm not quite ready to give up on the dream of having my own family. Therefore right now, investing my time in dating a man who doesn't want kids and is upfront about it is not something I'm willing to do.
12
We are baby boomers; we married in 1967-- the Summer of Love-- at age 19. Just had our 52nd anniversary, along with our 5 kids, our sons-in-law and daughter-in-law, and our 12 grandchildren.
We're 71, and 7 of our grandkids are either graduated from college, or in college. We garnered 2 grandsons-in-law this last year! We hike, ski, camp, and travel with grandchildren.
We had 3 kids by age 22, five by age 28. The first three had all graduated from high school by the time we were 40. We had six grandkids by age 50.
The point? Marry young and have a family young. We had almost nothing for the years we were in college and professional school-- but there's always enough hamburger and chicken!
You can't make up delay 'on the back end'-- especially serious delay. Early marriage and family has paid off in endless joy.
26
@Longue Carabine And what about people who don't want children?
7
@Longue Carabine congrats on your fairly huge family. for me, an older, committed-but-not-married, child-free millennial at 33, that's the last thing i want, and honestly, it's also the last thing i want for other people. we don't have the luxury of mindlessly procreating like the world isn't suffering for it. millennials seem to have a gift for thinking things through just a little more than your generation, and perhaps it's because of your generation (in the way that the large families born from it have impacted our world). the point i'm taking from your comment is: you want others to do as you've done... but i have no idea why.
12
@Longue Carabine
I would love to see how two 19 year olds could get married and have 5 children nowadays and “live with nothing” or in other words: hamburger and chicken. Rent, utilities, food, transportation, insurance, childcare, medical, everyday expenses. Heck, CLOTHES AND SHOES. My mother in law is of the same mindset...if people would only budget themselves today, they could live like my in-laws, with 4 children in a 5 bedroom brick colonial 10 years after the wedding; starting the family with Mom being 19. Buy the family home for $40,000, sell it 30 years later for $700,000. Tuna casserole and hand me downs, problem solved.
Sorry to say that America is gone forever, the suppression of wages for 30 years and Real Estate not being the guaranteed payoff it used to be has seen to that.
17
An often overlooked effect of later marriage/ having children is ‘difficulty’ conceiving. And the surge in IVF
14
Those of us who have found life-long partners when others have not are often as confused as everyone else as to how we got so lucky. Millennials are more in debt and less religious. They know marriage is not necessary to achieve a long-lasting and full-filling relationship. So why rush into it? Good for them.
32
@AE
And how do they know that?
3
@Longue Carabine They know because they are doing it.
8
I find the reference to unmarried relationships as "pre-commitment" somewhat offensive. My long-term partner and I have made a thoughtful decision not to marry, but we are nonetheless committed to one another. And doesn't the prevalence of divorce suggest that marriage is just as dissolvable as other, less traditional relationships?
40
@Rachel You are absolutely right.
2
@Rachel I'm unmarried but have been in a relationship with my partner for 15 years. We own our home, car and business together. Several friends have met someone, gotten married and divorced, all during the time we have not been married. A piece of paper from the government means nothing. Our commitment and relationship is deeper than many marriages.
7
@Rachel--I completely agree. My guy and I are together because we want to be. Either one of us could walk out on the other with no legal consequences. Plus, tax-wise, it is better for us to be unmarried. We can establish a trust and POAs to take care of the rest
2
As a lasting marriage requires patience and sacrifice, millennials keenly aware of their parents’ struggle are not inclined to repeat the same mistake.
16
My wife and I knew each other for three years before we started dating, dated for seven years before marrying, and have now been married for 35 years. We have been a part of each others lives for three quarters of our lives.
Taking it slow is a new concept? Who knew?
50
When I think of my own family and generations past, war was the deciding factor. Both sets of grandparents married in their 30s, delayed by WW1. My own parents married right after WW2. My generation married in their 20s, after the Vietnam War.
The younger generation, our kids, live in a world shaped by never ending wars that only a few fight. There has not been cathartic end and a turning of society back to reaffirming life and creating new life. Those in my extended family who have gone to war have followed the old pattern. Those who have not, have lived a long adolescence, showing little direction other than trying to find steady work crippled by student debt. They seem to finally get a toe hold on life in their mid 30s. Unfortunately they have found that having children in your late 30s isn't as easy as it is in your 20's. So they have smaller families, like the WW1 generation did. Every generation is shaped by the world they live in and finds its own way.
50
Maybe they learned that marriage is not the answer to anything. You do not need to ever get married or have children. This was a standard path for Boomers.
I hope this next generation is taking a hard look at this path of getting a job, get married, buy house, have children- it is not all that glorious and there are other paths to be explored.
I wish them well.
98
Don't know that average/median tells much. Having attended both a state university and an elite state tech university over the last 2 years, the tech students are are much more coupled up than the state students. I attribute this to high levels of competition which the tech students have experienced and experience as causing distress which they try to avoid in their personal relationships.
4
I would take this thesis more seriously if there was data presented on divorce rates for millennials so we could tell if this ‘slow love’ really works.
As Gen X er working with millennials, I don’t think they know how to relate in a flirtatious way. They’re all very good buddies, and off course the Metoo movement has had an impact, but I fear that the younger generations are becoming like the Japanese.
35
Don’t worry, that’s an illusion created by the fact that the long, slow dance required to develop a human modern behavioral strategy relationship doesn’t trigger a strong recognition in your mind.
The Japanese reference has validity for the same reasons, but the reasons you don’t have that recognition trigger are totally different.
(Also, it’s kind of unfair, ethnocentric in a common way. The fact that, on the surface, the common perception of Japanese behavior doesn’t match your experiential expectations is no reason to draw the conclusion that they aren’t matching the utility of your models of behavior, right down to the same details you expect. It’s unlikely that such a difference in basic human emotional behavior could survive intact, given the basic needs such models fulfill. In our personal experience the only significant differences come down to two areas: a different cultural catalog of emotional expression, and the same kind of cultural differences that are common right here at home, in different regions of our own country.)
—T&K
1
@Sipa111
That’s funny I didn’t know it was scary to be like the Japanese. In what way?
The big winners with these social and cultural shifts are IVF clinics. Times change but biology does not.
26
@Charlie Horse - This is true, and women are well aware of this. Will you please send that notice to the men? At 37, I’ve encountered more than my share of guys my own age who either are so blatantly immature or claim they aren’t going to be “ready” for another five to six years. At that point I’ll be 42/43. I don’t have time to wait for these guys to grow up and find themselves and, even if I did, I’m not interested in keeping my life in park while they live the dream.
I swear, if I could afford to have kids on my own, I’d call my doctor tomorrow and ask her to help me start researching the process. But I can’t. In order to afford kids, I need a partner, and I haven’t found one. I’m sure I’m not the only woman in this boat.
8
@Charlie Horse
Hmm. Time changes, Einstein and Bowie, we get that. Biology does not? Yeah, it does, sometimes a lot.
We’ve spent a lifetime (for the last crop of millennials) studying how the biology of your brain (and everyone else’s) has been changing over the last five to ten thousand years.
Perhaps the coolest thing about that is it seems likely that this particular change represents the original #MeToo movement. It’s underlying driver appears to be an effort by human females to develop and introduce mating behaviors that allow some measure of choice of the genetic material that will accompany theirs into the next generation, an effort that stands complete today as accepted common elements of ordinary sexual behavior.
Such ‘sneaky’ strategies are common in many species. Only in humans, as far as we know, does the ability require an actual change in the biology of the host, a minor tweak in the brain that has pretty big consequences.
If you can read this, well, that’s a lot of ‘em, right there.
2
Hmm. Time changes, Einstein and Bowie, we get that. Biology does not? Yeah, it does, sometimes a lot.
We’ve spent a lifetime (for the last crop of millennials) studying how the biology of your brain (and everyone else’s) has been changing over the last five to ten thousand years.
Perhaps the coolest thing about that is it seems likely that this particular change represents the original #MeToo movement. It’s underlying driver appears to be an effort by human females to develop and introduce mating behaviors that allow some measure of choice of the genetic material that will accompany theirs into the next generation, an effort that stands complete today as accepted common elements of ordinary sexual behavior.
Such ‘sneaky’ strategies are common in many species. Only in humans, as far as we know, does the ability require an actual change in the biology of the host, a minor tweak in the brain that has pretty big consequences.
If you can read this, well, that’s a lot of ‘em, right there.
—T&K
If you compare the averages between generations, millennials are by far the most academically-educated and hard-working generation in American history. They invested mind-boggling volumes of time and money into preparing themselves for the 21st century labor market. They are poorer, more medicated, and more precariously employed than their parents, grandparents, even their great grandparents, and they have less of a social safety net. They are also the first generation raised explicitly as investments.
It's not a surprise that they approach relationships and most other aspects of life in a measured, analytical and risk-averse manner, and that they value equity, experiences and ideas more than frequent intercourse or a hasty contractual union. It's a measure of general intelligence.
105
@Remarque "They are also the first generation raised explicitly as investments."
I am very certain that at least since the 1400s, birthing and raising heirs/children has been seen and known to be an "investment," financially as well as societal.
Actually, it seems to me that must have always been true of every generation since humans began organizing into tribes. In other words, forever.
As for "general intelligence," I'd say it is more about an effective use of available (dwindling) resources. Smart and perhaps savvy, but that is not about intelligence, other than being intelligent enough to survive.
1
No, they’re just on their phones more.
Having witnessed my and the family’s phone/laptop habits and compared our non-virtual activity to what it was even in the 90s, I state unequivocally that the internet has reduced such activity. Across the board and in some cases drastically.
Whatever I would have been doing in ‘92 instead of texting this comment, it would have mattered more.
83
It's worth underscoring the fact that people who date for three years are less likely to divorce. That may be because three years gives couples an opportunity to work through some conflict and trust their ability to make it through the next one. Sex and money are fire starters indeed, but so are "whose family will we spend the holidays with?" and "why do you spend so much time at the office?" and a hundred other annoyances of daily life that we need to work through. Relationship is a domain of learning we never learned in school. What's up with that?
40
The stats are backwards: the reason for the lower divorce rate is the choice of mating strategy. Modern strategy couples require more time to develop their relationship, something that is only peripherally related to details such as conflict over family allegiances.
We predicted exactly that when we first began to deconstruct the differences between the human modern and primitive mating strategies. Now, thirty or so years later, it’s kind of fun to see it appear as a more-or-less commonly accessible feature of the culture’s current take on relationships.
The modern strategy is based on expertise at nurturing offspring over at least two generations. The requirements are measured by an abstract status metric. We all possess an automatic internal status evaluator, which works in three seconds or less. Since nurturing is an abstract ability, evaluation relies on co-selected traits that serve as indicators of the quality of the related abstract traits. These are the externally identifiable traits that serve as the basis of commonly recognized standards of beauty and attractiveness in potential mates.
This is all old news, most of it studied in depth in the fifties. Status is also the metric driving choices for the primitive behavioral strategy, but in this case there is a status mismatch, and the primitive behaviors are the method applied to overcome it.
Long term pair bonding relies on a status match, another reason ‘millennials’ spend more time selecting a potential partner.
2
@Karen A
You have a point. We dated for 3 years before we married-- started at 16 and married at 19. Just had our 52nd anniversary. Five kids and 12 grandkids; 7 of the latter already adults and 2 married.
Baby boomers, us; HS class of 1966!
2
Listening to the millennial is insightful. My generation abandoned the rigidity of the war generation seeking freedom from it. They didn't marry early and live through world war II. This generation seeks boundaries. They have a security and a reflection more about reflecting on values and friendship. They seem more patient. They too are living in difficult times...debt, living costs, jobs and the chaos in our society.
13
Before one can be in an adult relationship, one needs to know themselves and love themselves unconditionally. By knowing the one person that is with us for all of our lives, we can learn to appreciate and love other human beings. I have learned that one person can't meet all of my love and relationship needs, thus I don't expect him to do this. I have learned to love openly, freely and without expectation. I find marriage laws (and vows) archaic and limiting; good for the state but not good for someone such as myself. When I love another human being, it is not pointed toward spending the rest of my life with him but appreciating the wonder of him as a brilliant and amazing human being. Weddings, like funerals, are for those not in the relationship or for those who are left behind and not for me.
7
It’s educated urban millennials who are in deep debt who are not having sex. They can’t afford to date, they can’t afford to court so they don’t.
When they meet the first question they ask is, “how much do you owe?” For many the date ends right there.
20
I am definitely someone who likes the idea of taking it slow. But, this process seems pretty cold and calculated to me. I really couldn’t do a “sex interview”. The idea of taking my clothes off and becoming intimate with someone I barely know chills me to the bone. I am not being prudish but I would find it hard to feel safe with a stranger and for me getting to know someone first is part of feeling a sexual connection with that person. Also, my experience of marriage has been that it is having kids not a wedding that really tests your commitment (and that is the real barrier in relation to divorce.) No one understands what having a child will be like until you have a baby and it’s when you have that real responsibility and massive new workload that the cracks in your relationship start to really show up. Until then you’re not really a team, just two fairly self-sufficient individuals keeping house.
120
@Kay this response discredits all of those childfree relationships and marriages, even if they are not childfree by choice. You really think that’s other difficult moments in life don’t test a relationship, such as losing a parent,a job, or getting serious illness? Couples who have gone through these things yet don’t have children arent “really committed” in your opinion?
13
@Kay Very true.
3
@Kay. I completely agree with you; it is as if people are supposed to become robots. The idea of a “sex interview” also doesn’t account for sexual assault, morning after regret, unsatisfying encounters, or people who finds themselves undressed and in an intimate setting, pressured to perform particular sex acts they do not wish to. Most of all, it suggests sex is simultaneous individual performances of personal expertise rather than a duet of mutual enjoyment.
4
A sex interview? YUK.
Sexual performance and credit scores can change. They can improve.
65
@Songbird
Maybe the latter, but not the former.
1
No, Millennials don’t know something about love that the rest of us don’t. They came of age at a different time from other generations, in a different world, and they are doing things differently—which makes them pretty much like every generation before them and almost assuredly every generation after them.
229
My uncle bought a house that needed loving and spent years working on it. When the house was perfect, he sold it. Why get rid of a perfect house? The work was done. That’s how I see a lot of young people today. Date for years and when things are mellow, hold a wedding, and then divorce. The wedding marked the end of a successful relationship, not the beginning of something new. The Carpenters sang We’ve Only Just Begun, now it’s Hello from the Other Side, by Adele.
6
@Rick - I know three women who divorced after brief marriages (two were married only three years, while one lasted a bit longer, married for seven before divorcing). All three were married to their college boyfriends and, at the marriages’ implosions, all had been with these guys for a decade or more. All of the marriages were dissolved by the guys - either directly, by stating that they didn’t want to be married anymore, or indirectly, through actions that made the divorce a reality. Fortunately, none of the women had children with these men.
All of the women have since remarried to more stable guys. Two now have children. Sometimes these brief marriages/divorces aren’t just the product of thoughtless young people who can’t hold it together, but rather come out of left field and really hurt the other person. The three women I know were all saddened about their divorces, and two were downright shocked by them. They hadn’t seen it coming and it was, at the time, very sad and heartbreaking for them. At least they can say they tried, as part of the Adele song goes.
10
@Rick That Carpenter's Song was sung in the movie Lovers and other Strangers, and that was a very interesting and funny movie on relationships and marriage. I hope you've had a chance to see it.
1
Taking it slow isn't a novel concept unique to milennials or any other generation for that matter. Plenty GenX kids grew up in so-called ”broken homes” and learned from their experiences. We didn't want to end up like our parents: miserable, bitterly divorced, remarried 2, 3, maybe 4 times. Or the dreaded ”stay together for the kids” nonsense, which did more damage to us. But hey - at least they weren't - gasp- divorcing! Gotta keep up the facade of the perfect 1950s family.
I do think that it is true that we are products of the time in which we live. Some of us couldn't imagine being married and having kids by the time we were 23. Rather, we approached 30, and carefully chose our partners and committed to - again- not ending up like our parents. But our Silent Generation parents were sold an illusion of what marriage was supposed to be. No wonder things fell apart. Or their readin
Millennials have indeed gotten the short end of the stick, and in more ways than one. They are more trepidacious of institutions, as well they should be. Taking it slow is just common sense & pragmatic way to approach something as serious a commitment as marriage. Unfortunately, we often buy what we are sold. Ever since divorce lost its taboo status, the mindset of ”we can always get divorced” carves an easy way out for anyone who either doesn't understand the commitment they are making, or do not take it seriously.
And, yes, divorce is expensive. Forethought is nothing new. It is wise.
30
It was not unusual in the old days for men to delay marriage (and heaven knows, baby-making) with their beloveds until they were settled enough to provide for them.
One hears stories of couples who waited 10-15 years. And in the bad old days, sometimes illness and death intervened before the marriage could take place.
When Odysseus rebuffs the obvious sexual interest of Nausicaa, he tells her that someday she will find a spouse with whom she will have "good conversation -- the best thing." And when he finally returns to his Penelope, they spend the night telling and retelling each other stories of the trials they endured over their 20 years of separation.
Take it slow, kids. Romance ain't everything.
31
MUCH much better to takes things slower. After all, there has been waaay more divorces and separations which i believe is tantamount to speed dating because of the lack of understanding your partner in depth :) Basing your financial life on an emotional one is a fools paradise. When you take credit, debt, and finances out of the equation only then can you meet each other on equal ground for Love. That can only be done by understanding each others financial life. Good or bad. Transparency is key.
10
The article's premise is that love = marriage.
But that does not accord with our historical experience of either.
Marriage has always been an economic and social relationship. Its ancient goal was to ensure that genes were passed down in a predictable pattern, then the assets from land and livestock to subordinated debenture bonds and such. It played a key role in severing the worker from his fellows by setting up the household as an autonomous unit of consumption and capital formation
Love (sexual, that is) all this time has been cherished as an escape from this mainly transactional relationship, variously known as a gift from the gods or an inspired, probably unwise madness. Often both.
That the two could exist concurrently is just more evidence that we are able to live on different levels.
Until we can't.
27
Yes, absolutely millenials can teach us all a few things about love. Such as:
It is hard to pursue a meaningful relationship when you work all the time, have no money, and no free time.
Honestly, the notion that millenials are "choosing" to not engage in relationships is insulting. They have the same desires as everyone else, but are living in an environment tailor-made to made it impossible to hook up. It reminds me of the old 1970s articles complaining about how nobody walks about anymore that somehow missed the absence of places where people actually could walk without getting caught in traffic.
113
@Michael B. English Agreed- when any money you make goes to your college loans, and you live with your parents, you're not exactly in prime position to focus on finding people to play with. I feel badly for them.
6
We watched our parents' marriages fall apart, as the follies of youth led lust and fundamentally unhealthy infatuation to be conflated with love. Both trying to avoid the same mistakes and for practical, financial reasons, I don't think it should be considered out of the ordinary that Millennials would approach the subject of love from a perspective which rewards long-lasting marriages and the ability to get out of unhealthy relationships without adding further hurdles like legal ties.
16
My mom's best friend got married when I was in sixth grade, in San Luis Opisbo. I knew then as I know now that that was the kind of relationship I wanted: two DINKs, with advanced degrees, who had escaped the confines of the religion/culture they were born into.
Twenty years later, this is still my desire, but I worry that that boat will sail by. As the income gap reaches Gilded Age levels, I fear I may end up like Lily Bart (younger and plainer girls have been married off by the dozens in my city).
Maybe my life partner is on a coast somewhere -- but I don't know if we believe in romcoms anymore.
25
Seriously? You believed in romcoms?
2
I connected with the love of my life 39 years ago. We spent 3 years in a committed relationship before taking the next step to marriage.
We discovered in those 3 years: a shared set of common values; wanting the same thing from our relationship; our families, very important to both of us, loved both of us. We've had a very good sexual relationship throughout our years together, and that's not some small consideration.
Money wasn't a motivator in our relationship at the beginning since neither of us had any, but we committed to sharing our limited resources equally. So throughout our relationship over the years, when one of us was up and one was down, we didn't stress when the financial equation between us shifted.
We've talked out every important (and minor) decision, and agreed many years ago on the following principals: 1 - we go forward if we both agree on any action or expenditure; 2 - if one of us wants to go forward but the other is indifferent, we agree that it's okay to go forward on one of our opinions; 3 - if one of us doesn't want to go forward on an action or expenditure, then we don't do it, period.
This approach has worked very well, although we might work to argue our position to persuade the other. However, in the end, our longstanding agreements stand.
We continue to be very happy together, delighted to be living out the retirement we planned.
Go slow and steady Millennials, it's a good approach to having a great, long-lasting relationship!
65
@PAWS So in other words you met your partner in a socioeconomic environment which no longer exists, and you are assuming that people who do not follow your example are doing so out of choice, as opposed to because they, you know, CAN'T.
21
@Michael B. English
My two oldest Millenial granddaughters got married this last year: one at 24, the other at 23.
One's a teacher, one's a Registered Nurse. Both of their husbands have good careers.
None have had any trouble getting educated and finding good jobs.
7
@Michael B. English Yeah, the "I started out with nothing!" argument is laughable. I would LOVE to be starting out with nothing - nothing but a decent economy with living wage jobs and affordable housing, like my parents did. Instead, I'm starting out with student loan debt, skyrocketing cost of living, and stagnant wages at jobs with no benefits.
10
Marriage was the defining step into adulthood: your own family and your own home. It was a leap of faith into an unknown future, grounded in love as a commitment.
Now marriage is the last piece of a logistical puzzle, and it has to fit parameters of job (and socioeconomic class), location, mutual friends and interests, spending preferences, etc. Most women are on par with their mates intellectually and economically.
This is good; it follows women's increase in power over the last 40 years, and avoids marriage as an inescapable trap entered while blind.
However, I think living a life only by the pragmatic perspective leaves one emotionally prey to one's conditions.
If instead very young people could take that leap of faith in earnest and come through on the commitment to put that relationship first over the logistics of life, they might live less conditioned by work and society -- more freely.
I've seen some huge advantages among my friends who got knocked up early: They raised their kids when they could remember what it was like to be a kid and when they had the energy and physicality to play with them. And they're done rearing kids when they're 40, when their careers are ready to take off and they still have enough runway to take risks or retire early.
41
@we Tp
You got it! Though our first three were in college when we were forty, the last of the 5 graduated from university when we were 52-- 14 years straight with kids in college- whew! Public colleges, to be sure.
Dive in, I tell the young. My kids took the advice, and two recently-married grandkids did, too. Life is meant to be lived 'concurrently' not 'consecutively'.
8
In 1968, I met my future husband, married him after a few months courtship (he was 23) and here we still are after almost 51 years of glorious happiness. I think generalizations are usually exaggerations.
35
Good for you.
I know some couple like you, but I know far more couples that ended up divorced than together.
I think taking it slow is better.
28
@Denise
I agree with YOU Denise. MUCH much better to takes things slower. After all there has been waaay more divorces and separations which i believe is tantamount to speed dating because of the lack of understanding your partner in depth :)
10
Yup, that’s a really good indicator that the original meet was between two people with approximately the same status, who then fell naturally into a modern behavioral strategy relationship, commonly referred to as long term pair bonding for obvious reasons. (Note this is real status, inherent in the genes, and not the fake look-I’ve-got-a-Beemer kind.)
It’s hard to identify a meet that was mediated by the primitive behavioral strategy, at least for a few weeks; part of the behavior is to mimic a modern relationship.
If the relationship survives, then it’s pretty easy to tell which strategy was being applied. Primitive relationships are programmed to last about two to three weeks, then bye-bye.
Unless one of the two is a manikin, of course. Hard to say what the purpose of that strategy is, though...
I don't think it is better or worse as far as relationships go, just different. And guess what, the generation which comes next will also be weird and different. But one thing which is a likely result: less children per couple. The only people I know who have more than 2 kids got married before they were 25.
14
You don't know enough people.
@Charlie
You'd be surprised. Also I live in Utah where the majority (not me, mind you) of people still get married before 25, so there is that to consider as well.
As Pete Buttegieg preaches: the Evangelicals supporting Trump and the Republican Party have lost "the moral high ground" on their "family values". The notion of celibacy is now a mockery with the revelations of the misdeeds of priests, rabbis and other religious leaders. We have been set free from the constraints placed by patriarchal leaders about rules of courtship and marriage. Now perhaps the problem is too much choice! If one is routinely looking for partners through on line dating services that is a whole different ball game from walking into a bar.
18
@Boomer
Strange on the patriarchy thing. Mostly I've seen women pushing marriage more than men...but what do I know? I've only been around 71 years....
1
The author notes that knowing someone three years increases the likelihood of successful marriage. Knowing someone well for three years- great advice. Gives you a chance to observe how they make decisions, handle disappointments and maybe a tragedy too. Maybe even boredom. Great advice and many conservatives have said this for years. But the social conservative thought was then, after the three years, then you have sex. Contrary to popular belief, that sort of living is not impossible and many believe it made the sexual life in marriage very special. There are, of course. many ways people choose to live. We need to respect each other’s choices. We even need to respect the conservative’s choices.
19
Hi, young millennial here. The "sex interview" is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. This person is fundamentally out of touch with my generation. That 34% was obviously friends of some sort that had a romantic connection before going out to a proper dinner date.
312
@Leigh - I agree - totally ridiculous. I’ve never heard of such a thing and at 37 I’m not that old.
19
@Leigh. What are Tinder and Grindr and all the rest for? I am not on such services and have gotten random text messages (wrong number) from girls with racy photos who are looking to have sex with some guy who they “talked to” online.
@Raindrop Those might be "catfish". Tinder is comparable to Match.com or any other online dating service, in my experience.
3
And let's not forget that there is often great joy to be found -- and sometimes, dare I say "espoused" -- in not getting married at all. Ever. Marriage itself is not a law, and many do brilliantly without it. :)
233
Well, true! Until one of you needs hospitalization and you find the doctors, needing a family member with whom to consult, will not speak with you.
Or until one of you dies and the funeral home contacts a second cousin because family, not significant others, are in charge of corpses.
Why do you think gay people fought so hard for marriage equality? It wasn't purely principle, or a moral reason.
38
@fiona Absolutely, I am 45, unmarried, solvent and very, very happy that I didn't drink the Kool-Aid!
12
@B. The situations that you describe do present real problems for unmarried couples, but they are problems created by the way that our institutions measure commitment, not problems created by those who choose not to marry. The solution is not more marriage; the solution is a broader acceptance of unmarried relationships.
24
In most traditional cultures a long (usually years) courtship precedes marriage, sexual intercourse follows marriage, and divorce is frowned upon and rare. Developed by long experience, this cultural model works for the benefit of children and the culture as a whole.
32
@Jonathan Katz — what about all the traditional cultures where marriages were arranged by others — not by the bride and groom? My paternal grandparents, who were married in what is now Moldova in the 19th century, were in such a marriage. They apparently were so happily married that, when my grandmother died, my grandfather lived only three weeks beyond that, dying of a broken heart.
15
@Jonathan Katz Just because a divorce rate is low does not mean those married couples are actually *happy*, which should be the true indicator of a "successful marriage." Sure, the divorce rate used to be much lower in the 1950s, but not only could women not escape abusive marriages because of their financial dependency, it was also legally very difficult to obtain a divorce in the first place.
39
@Jonathan Katz
I agree with you, except for the "sexual intercourse" part. You are dreaming if you think people ever courted for years without having sex. There were plenty of wedding gowns that ought to have at least been ecru instead of white.
I do agree that a stable home life is best for children. But, in your cultural model many couples in the marriage were unhappy--and they stayed together for the sake of the children.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing? It depends. If couples are at each other's throats in front of their kids, an amicable divorce is probably better, frowned upon or not.
I'm a senior citizen--I have friends who, to this day, still talk about their dysfunctional childhoods with traditionally married parents who didn't divorce because it was 'frowned upon.' Plenty of damage can be done to society either way.
28
It's a knee jerk reaction to the divorce epidemic that hit boomers. Kids who grew up watching families fall apart are terrified of making the same "mistake".
What will be interesting to see, though, is whether or not avoiding the possibility of divorce all together (by delaying marriage) is worth the short term loss of companionship.
24
To Liz... interesting, huh? Different plan than we have here but probably no worse. I think many loving parents have thought- “If only I could pick the spouse for my kid, this family’s son/daughter would be the right partner. “. Somebody they could build a life with together. Same value system, probably similar backgrounds, and interests. Maybe your grandparents didnt expect earthshaking romance, but a sold partner to love and work together with. Reasonable expectations help.
The media certainly don’t help us with the expectations. A proposal in a rom com is followed by a ticker tape parade and fireworks. Who can measure up to that?
6
@Johnny
We can't predict the future, and we can't live as if we can.
I guess I’m one of those dreaded millennials here to ruin love and marriage alongside my live-in fiancé of four years.
Be afraid, be veeerry afraid. We both work, help each other with household tasks, cook together and take turns picking up groceries. He makes me tea and I pack lunch. We travel, hike, camp and spend time with our parents and siblings. Oh and we love each other deeply and consider the other our best friend and favorite all-around human.
But we must be ruining it, somehow...
270
@KM Bravo- I'm in the same situation and very, very happy with life. Who knew we ruined everything?
4
“Love is fickle,” said Dr. Fisher.
Wrong. Love is not fickle but lust, romance and sexual passion may be.
Best not to conflate.
85
Some of the comments on here are terrible. Some quotes:
"If women don't change to some form of exclusivity, chastity, virginity, or virtue then you can expect the age of marriage and the birth rate to continue to get worse as society collapses."
"Millennials are having less sex because sex has become risky, especially for men. Feminists bit by bit have made most all sex potentially illegal. As Laura Kipnis as remarked, "The rules and the codes [on campuses] have been rewritten behind closed doors such that almost all sex can be charged as something criminal." This applies to general society as well."
It's all blaming millennials for low birth rate and "loose" women. Really? Millennials are not in a good place financially overall. It IS a good thing that we are waiting until we are financially stable to commit and settle down. Why would you want to start having kids when you don't even have a roof over your head? Millennials crave stability. We've seen what a recession looks like and how it affected our friends and family. We are scrounging resources to make sure we can provide.
All these talk of blaming feminism and morality for people having less sex is ridiculous. It reeks of "incels" and other people who seek to control women.
465
The millennials I know are mostly working crazy hours and don’t have much money, makes it harder to date and keep up a dating relationship.
176
@Di
It's always been this way .... my parents and grandparents worked harder.
It's expectations --
1
@GT Grandparents likely lived through the Great Depression, so I'll give you that one. Parents? Not likely. From the late 1940s to 1980s the job market was better than now, pay was higher in real terms, and cost of living was lower than now.
12
Sex hides a lot of a relationship's red flags and physical intimacy can create a bond where you ultimately don't want one. Oxytocin can fool you. If you aren't careful, that could take years to figure out. And guess which one of you has a biological clock. If you want marriage, go on dates and skip the "sex interview". If you know early on this isn't somebody you would marry, move on. Don't sacrifice long term happiness for short term pleasure. In every aspect of life, not just sex, that trade off is never, ever worth it. But it's especially not worth it for women.
320
@Working mom
Guess which one of you has a biological clock?
https://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/26/older-fathers-assessing-the-risks/?searchResultPosition=2
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/07/well/family/older-fathers-more-likely-to-have-babies-with-health-problems.html?searchResultPosition=3
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/well/family/the-risks-to-babies-of-older-fathers.html?searchResultPosition=1
PS, same-sex marriage is legal now.
20
Sex feels good. That's all the reason to have it you need.
Suggesting that you shouldn't have sex early because you'll become trapped in some kind of a serotonin sex web is ridiculous. If you let your physical relationship with someone obscure your emotional relationship with them that is a failure of your own emotional intelligence.
Also, saying women are somehow more subject to this is insulting, put the victim card back in your deck.
21
Maybe for you! But don’t pretend that everyone’s life works just like yours. I have no idea how old you are, but it seems like maybe this method of finding a partner is a good thing? I certainly think waiting until you are older to marry and having a lower rate of divorce is good!
10
I'd be cautious about drawing conclusions from the fact that marriages of people who stay together for many years and then marry last long. Maybe that's just the people who are very good about keeping up relations any way and who also have the emotional intelligence and foresight not to rush into weddings, so that in earlier times when these people would have followed the social expectations of marrying earlier, they would still have happy lasting marriages, whereas for most millenials engaging in hookup culture, it might seem like that's a smart way to test the waters with a person, but the long-lasting happy relationship will not happen in a way as it would have in previous generations when people had more face-to-face time and felt more committed towards each other.
10
I can see wisdom in this. That said, "the gap between the number of children that women say they want to have (2.7) and the number of children they will probably actually have (1.8) has risen to the highest level in 40 years." (NYT, Feb. 13, 2019)
Combine that with fertility basics: Fertility declines as women age, especially after 35. When a 30 year old woman, tries to conceive, there's a 20% chance each month she'll become pregnant. When that same woman tries at 40, her chance is less than 5%.
So, this path to deeper love has the potential to make many, if they decide to have children, struggle to create the families they say they want.
Again, this may be a trade-off worth making. But it's one that everyone should be clear of what it entails.
26
I think there is less dating and sex right now that it has more to do with the instant gratification culture and the focus on 'happiness' and 'me me me' in relationships. Relationships are work and not happiness 100% of the time. I am an older Millennial recently in a relationship and was single for many years prior and it was brutal. I gave up dating several times for a year at a time because I could not stand the pervasive ghosting and general disrespect. I was much more content on my own than the dating roller coaster. I happen to meet someone on my first date in a year that is working out well so far but I consider that pure luck as he is a very rare complete gentleman.
131
@Christine M - I’m right there with you, and totally understand where you’re coming from. I too have been single for years and gave up dating a couple of times for a set period of time because I just couldn’t stand the fickle behavior, lack of respect, immaturity, and general laziness and glum disinterest from a lot of the guys in today’s dating scene. (Throw in ghosting, and it’s a wonder I even went back.) I’m so glad you found a nice gentleman. and I sincerely hope it works for you. Solid relationships with good people are rare things these days. Best of luck to you and your partner.
24
@Christine M-After a lot of experience on the dating roller coaster--I switched from dating to courtship behavior. A good book, "Searching for Courtship" provided a excellent primer. Behaving like a lady is always a net benefit for attracting a gentlemen and helps those still learning how to become better men. Congrats to you!
5
@Christine M
This and same here. I don't find the issue to be requiring 'test drives' before buying, but actually finding a respectful, thoughtful, mature, eligible, *single* gentleman who is on the same page. Who is raising these men? It's tough out here.
12
"millennials are dating less, having less sex and marrying much later than any generation before them, and a younger generation appears to be following in their footsteps."
These are the tall tell signs of societal decay, not "slow love." History is repeating itself. Literally Rome did the same actions as far as feminism goes and "liberating" women to be strumpets. Had the same effect before the empire fell. Men will not defend what's not exclusive to them so then your country becomes defenseless.
Men lose all attraction when women are not exclusive, so they stop marrying along with commitment. Then the female population ages past fertility(30) and are skipped. If women don't change to some form of exclusivity, chastity, virginity, or virtue then you can expect the age of marriage and the birth rate to continue to get worse as society collapses.
14
@Kalev
Wow. So civilization depends on me keeping my knees together?
Too late.
And really-"strumpet"???
136
@Kalev — a new, “strumpet”-based theory on why Rome fell? Personally, I’ll stick with Gibbon’s theory and blame Christianity!
95
@Kalev It's true, women are to blame for the collapse of societies since the history of the world! It has nothing to do with men engaging in war without end, enslaving people along with women, who are almost always in some form of patriarchal bondage. Women nurture life and men destroy it, but let's not let details get in the way of the dastardly female bent of destroying societies!
And millennials not dating or having sex has nothing to do with social media, screen addiction of the male propensity to spend endless hour upon hour fixated on a screen playing war games protecting fantasy worlds and kingdoms and blowing away apocalypse zombies. Millennial women, get your fertile bodies out there and intersect with the male member to keep this society going strong!
145
Ridiculous. You can’t contemplate love and marriage when life is unsettled. Rather than address the issues that result in low birthrate, the solution currently on offer is to get the woman pregnant and insist she have the a child. No stability, love or marriage about that. Trying to say the millennials have “slow” love rather than owning up that the older generations have made the world unlivable is kicking the can down the road
74
Millennials are having less sex because sex has become risky, especially for men. Feminists bit by bit have made most all sex potentially illegal. As Laura Kipnis as remarked, "The rules and the codes [on campuses] have been rewritten behind closed doors such that almost all sex can be charged as something criminal." This applies to general society as well.
Consider how sex and the steps leading up to sex have changed over the last few decades. What would have been considered a man flirting years ago may now be considered sexual harassment. Now a man can’t compliment a woman’s appearance, catcall, tell a sexual joke, follow or investigate a love interest, date a woman at work, or have sex with a woman who has had alcohol without considerable risk. And ridiculous affirmative consent laws can turn any man into a rapist for forgetting to get verbal consent for every sexual move.
Men are having less sex because any little and unknowable mistake can lead to the ruin their lives.
34
@Chan Yee, While I can see your perspective that "sex has become risky" and that there seems to be some sort of secret code, I want to point out that your examples of "harassment" vary widely and are not equivalent. Complimenting appearance - sure, as a GenXer, I will admit that I roll my eyes when I hear a woman complain that her classmate or coworker asked if she got a haircut because it looks cute, "How dare they objectify me!!" ... My thought is, "how nice to be noticed and complimented!" However, catcalling? Hmmmm.... that's never okay. That's a random stranger being predatory or at least lascivious. Big difference between the two.
As for this men as victims trope, not buying it. I have managed to rear two boys into adulthood without worrying that their lives will be "ruined" by their behavior. My sons happen to be young adults dating women and presumably having sex (I don't ask for those details.) Yet they were raised to be respectful; conscious of others' feelings; aware of verbal and non-verbal signs of consent; and GENTLEmen.
Oh, the thing about alcohol? Yeah, I drummed into their little heads from early on: "If you are getting close with someone at a party and they have been drinking, do NOT make out/fool around/have sex with them. Help them to a safe place and say goodnight." Anyone mourning the loss of drunken hookups needs to do a little personal inventory.
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Oh the horror of having to actually behave like a civilized human being and not like an entitled hormone-ridden beast. Life is so hard for men, I don't know how they survive at all. Asking consent is so much harder than being raped, beaten, humiliated, enslaved, forced to bear unwanted children or all that women have actually had to put up with since the beginning of time and it was somehow all okay. And now that they want to, you know, not have to live with all those abuses anymore, and finally demand basic things like safety and respect, now that's too much. How dare they! What is the world coming to!
Sigh. Somehow I can't find a single tear to spare.
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@Chan Yee-Basically agree with a few observations, differences.
The original moderate modern feminists like Betty Friedan was the heroines ie women should get equal rights and treatment in the workplace and everyplace else and Ms Freidan succeeded.
Just like with any advance, the perverters come in, in this case what I call the neo feminists of today ie men are the root call of all evil and women will never be equal to them because of men's existence and their masculinity must be wiped out.
It is a fine line what you say above, yes, neo feminists have made it a crime for a man to act like a man but on the other hand catcalls, borish behavior etc. is never called for back in the day or now.
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In the past app. 30 yrs. present day men in this country have been devalued, degraded, accused of being the cause of all the ills in the world, condemned for five million yrs. of existence by Neo feminists especially those at the NY Times.
Evolution as usual has stepped in. Studies are beginning to show mens' sex organs are getting smaller, sperm counts lower, less sex etc.
Men don't want to get married, have less kids, and most amazing at all don't even want to look at attractive young women even when they are walking alone without wives or gfs on the street. I know, I see it in. my area. It is stunning from as little as 30 yrs. ago.
The election of the ego maniac demagogue Trump was a push back against this. Let alone men, a majority of white women voted for him.
Bottom line if you don't want this to continue or get worse, practice what the original moderate feminists in the 1980s preached, equal rights and treatment for women but after that let men be men and women be women.
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@Paul —and don’t forget, it was the “Neo feminists” that caused Rome to fall!
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@Paul
Some notes:
(1) Granted that I have been married for 33 years, I haven't noticed much devaluing of men over the past three decades. Evidence?
(2) Evolution doesn't happen that fast.
(3) I do think men are less likely to gawk at women than they used to be; but the young people with whom I shared law school ten years ago paired off and married and had their first, and some, second and third kids in pretty quick order.
(4) You characterize Trump correctly, but the people who voted for him? Not the ones we're talking about. Many people under 30 felt betrayed, rightly or wrongly, and failed to vote at all. That was their error, not voting for idiocy.
(5) This is America in the 21st century. And if it takes a little longer for people to fall in love, is that such a bad thing?
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@Paul
Actual science says that men's sexual organ dysfunction and lowered sperm count may be due to environmental pollution; specifically, chemicals such as BPAs that leach out of plastics, and pesticides like Roundup, which mimic estrogen in the body. Hormone and antibiotic use in livestock may play a role as well.
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They're not having sex and intimacy because they are all heavily medicated
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A couple of thoughts here.
Desmond Morris, best known for “The Naked Ape”, in his 1978 book “Manwatching”, made an observation that women skirt lengths were affected by the economy: The more prosperous the economy was, the shorter the skirts women wore. In other words, if women felt the economy was strong, they would show off their sexuality more and felt more comfortable having sex and making children.
I teacher one told me that David Buss’s book “The Evolution of Desire” mentions that women in Scandinavian countries are more likely to be promiscuous because that society pays for more child care expenses.
The point being, women are more likely to have sex if they feel any resulting children will be well taken care of. Today’s shrinking middle class means that women feel more insecure about their economic future; less sex is the inevitable result.
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@strenholme
Sexual morality is comparatively loose in northern Europe and strict around the Mediterranean for ecological reasons: In the sparsely populated forests of the North it is easy for couples to sneak off and do what they want to do, hidden by heavy vegetation. In traditional Mediterranean villages, there was no privacy (every public place was open to view) except for married couples. That led to the concept of family honor residing in its women's chastity. Within the last 100 years, if a Italian couple had been in a private place for even a few minutes marriage was required. Modern Mediterranean cities provide unchaperoned privacy (apartments and dormitories), and sexual morality in countries like Italy and Spain now resembles that of northern Europe.
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@strenholme Excellent observations, we rarely think that our behavior is tied to economics, but it is. The 60s was a period of extraordinary wealth.
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There's a chasm between being too socially inept and disconnected to have loving and passionate relationships and being "thoughtful" about relationships. The two are not mutually exclusive as this article seems to indicate. It's possible to have both (passionate love *and* be thoughtful), but not if you have spent your life in front of a screen and feel that you should interview your partner as if you were recruiting for a job.
Love and passion are what keep relationships alive through hard times, and there will be hard times no matter how carefully and well-considered your choice of partner is. I think what we will see in the future is not a lot of younger people today who have longer lasting relationships, but ones that have more amicable break-ups because they were never that invested in their relationships nor possessing of deep emotional intimacy. What I tend to see is people who think mainly about compatibility from an objective viewpoint (e.g., hobbies, income, goals, etc.) and have no clue about what it actually takes to be compatible within the bounds of a romantic situation (e.g., communication styles, energetic and creative styles, etc.). What is written here sounds one step-removed from arranged marriage where resumes are compared rather than feelings for one another.
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If you think this trend is accelerating now, wait until virtual reality and sexbots become cheap and commonplace.
Relationships--especially those that are perceived to have the possibility of being long-term and serious--take time, emotional intelligence/investment, and a certain amount of stability in other realms. Whether smartphones and social media have reduced the first two requirements, and post-industrial capitalism has eroded the third, or not, it's certainly arguable that fewer people possess these than once did, and so it's not surprising that people are going slow, or often severely backburner-ing the whole pursuit.
And, as aforementioned, we may get to the point, with sufficient technological advance, when the ROI is better with silicon and epoxy than flesh and blood. In the past, people who couldn't hack a serious relationship turned to print and prostitutes; eventually they may go completely to video and virtuality.
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@Glenn Ribotsky. It seems like this future has already come to Japan. Very high rates of people in their twenties who have never been sexually active, social isolation, low marriage rates, and very few babies.
These categories are too broad. I can see how there's debate on where to draw the boundaries. And you're making conclusions about people who are in fact vastly different, on the two ends of this time span. Especially because there was such a huge, massive and sudden change in lifestyle when smartphones flooded people's lives. You pretty much have to use that as a divider between generations, too. Because, within this "millennial" span, you have people who didn't get a smart phone until they were adults (like me), and people who pretty much grew up with them. Smart phones, social media and all that comes with them shape the way people interact with the world and with each other in a profound way, so people on the two sides of this divide cannot fairly be put into the same category, from which you then draw conclusions about them as if they were one.
Supposedly, I'm a "millennial" too, but I was an adult out of college when the first iPhone came out. All of my dating and romantic experience happened when people still talked face to face. I am now married with two kids and feel like I have very little in common with the 20-something "kids" on the other end of this spectrum, who are doing this whole hookup thing and living their lives on screens.... So, generalizing articles like these just don't sound very convincing to me. Sure, the conclusions sound logical, but don't apply them to such a large and diverse group of people. Or at least tease out what's causing what within it.
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@Nefertiti - But that's true for all of these generation divisions. I've often pointed out that some baby boomers from the beginning of that so-called generation are actually parents to some of the baby boomers born at the end of the generation.
Baby boomers born at the beginning had parents who were adults or near-adults during the war years, meaning that many fathers had seen active duty and many women had taken jobs and others volunteered to serve "on the home front". Television was non-existent for most early baby boomers until they were actually old enough to be in school and what there was was limited and in black and white. For baby boomers born toward the end, television saturated their lives from infancy on. News of the holocaust and threats of nuclear war were realities for older baby boomers that affected their relationship to their hopes and aspirations; older baby boomers were largely engaged in the struggle for civil rights, women's rights, the sexual revolution, and fighting in Vietnam. None of that was true for the younger members of the generation. While the experiences of individuals differed depending on a lot of different factors, in general those born between 1946 and 1956 had very different formative experiences from those of the boomers born between 1956 and 1964.
So much of this generation stuff is just silly.
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