If people/officials/elected leaders really want change outcomes for students they need to shift gears and put resources, money and better teacher training to work in early childhood education - pre-school and elementary school. Young children are natural learners - and they love it. They are open minded and totally receptive. Set them on the road to becoming curious, interested young people early - before this thirst for knowledge is sucked out of them by a disruptive home life, poor teaching, lack of resources and just feeling neglected by those charged with their education. They will become the kids entering all kinds of special schools without adjusting standards which won’t benefit anyone. The impact of this approach will be huge and felt by the kids, their parents - and the best result will be much happier kids and communities.
14
AI’ve long wondered if the new New York school supremo Richard Carranza, a doctrinaire Mexican-American leftist from the West, is in over his head in the viper pit that is New York City parenting. Carranza has made explicit the argument that either blacks and Hispanics average lower on tests due to white racism or … [gasp] … The Bell Curve is right!
But that argument has flopped with New York City Asian parents.
13
dept of the obvious-- it's a safe bet that most of the people commenting here are pretty good test-takers. as a group we're likely to see test-taking ability as akin to virtue. in my experience, you reach a certain age, nobody cares what your sats are, nor even the fancy schools you went to, because, really, what's that got to do with living life?
i believe that performance matters; and if you have a head for tests, you should accept nothing less than your best. but i'm really not sure this should be a universal value. it's like expecting everyone to care about scrabble.
3
Why not have an all black elite high school similar to the HBCUs like Howard University, which has produced countless distinguished black leaders including Thurgood Marshall, Thomas Sowell, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Kamala Harris, Toni Morrison, Debbie Allen, Phylicia Rashad, Sean Comb et al., or Moorehouse College, which has produced MLK, Spike Lee, Samuel Jackson, Herman Cain.
The time has come to give the smart black kids in NYC their own school. It's a crime to let these kids languish in their underperforming schools, probably getting bullied or ignored daily, simply because they can't make it into the existing elite high schools.
2
@Listen
"Why not have an all black elite high school...?"
Because that would be illegal.
12
Thank you so much, Mr. Lauder....
23
My son graduated from Hunter College HS in NYC . Before Carranza was Chancellor in NY he held the same position in Houston and my son who lives in Houston used to complain about their terrible school Chancellor My Grandson who is from Central America was in a school that was totally racially diverse and Carranza wanted to lower funding to schools like that if they were in a middle class neighborhood.
18
Functional medicine doctors study the root cause of illness, while traditional doctors often address just the symptoms of illness. In this case, the DOE is acting as a traditional doctor, addressing only the surface symptoms of low achievement in Black and Latino communities in NYC.
Students don't just fail to admit to the SHS. They probably have been failing a grade or two, or three since elementary school. They probably came to school a few years behind/didn't receive the early exposure to literacy that they should have/or attended PreK.
The DOE will have to address the ROOT causes of low achievement, instead of just admitting a set percentage of students. Students who are unprepared will buckle under the work and teachers will be pressured by school and district administrators to pass them through.
Finally, the DOE should really start attaching other criteria to admissions besides SHSAT (test + portfolio/audition/grades/ state test scores etc).
Also, they should open MORE specialized high schools and G/T programs. We have 1.1 million students and only 9 schools! This means ALL of our students are underserved. I can't tell you how many of my own students have tested in G/T but there is no spot for them or the spot is in a far away school that is far from their home and the schools their siblings attend.
19
Stop with the mixed ability/differentiated instruction nonsense. Bring back tracking in all schools in all neighborhoods. This allows the capable and talented to thrive in honors classes while average and low-ability students can get the attention they deserve.
48
I find it very satisfactory to see that this city/state have rejected the type of destructive and superficial reforms that Carranza has carried out in SF (look up SF middle school algebra or the current African-American state test results, if you are not familiar with his record there). Perhaps now is the time for the chancellor & the mayor to concentrate on the hard work of improving K-8 education for the minority kids, so that they can get into these SHSes on their own merit - rather than score political points through watering down these schools wit de facto racial quotas.
37
Diblasio, Carranza et al, along with other so-called “progressives” subscribe to the politics of proportionality—ie “we want our share.”
Achievement is up to the individual—and the individual parents, not another program.
Think the old Smith Barney commercial: “WE EARN IT!”
30
I'm a poor white boy from Cypress Hills Housing Projects. Parents were first American-born kids of their generation and high school dropouts. Thank you BTHS and UFT for a fantastic, all-around education (Chemical, 1970).
24
Can you explain the politics of why control of admissions to the elite schools was transferred from the city to the state?
4
@Michael Munk
My understanding is that when the tests started in the 1970's state legislators became concerned that a deteriorating city school system was one cause of white flight. The test was seen as a way to retain middle class white children in New York City and its public school system. More generally, the state has a lot of control over the city so that, as just one example, the city cannot raise income taxes without state approval. That is why you occasionally here the call for NYC to become its own state.
4
@Michael Munk
How Gotham’s Elite High Schools Escaped the Leveller’s Ax
https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-gotham%E2%80%99s-elite-high-schools-escaped-leveller%E2%80%99s-ax-12276.html
4
@Lifelong Reader Thanks. I suspected the 1971 state legislation was at least in part a response to a challenge from the civil rights movement. Sorry to have to rely on a conservative journal for that history but I'm grateful for the well documented and coherent story.
1
I am not a billionaire. I oppose de Blasio's attempt to undermine G&T schools. To claim opposition is because of a billionaire is highly disingenuous. This is the latest intentionally misleading statements from Corranza & crew. The article even points out from the very beginning that Corranza lies about the SHSAT proposal.
Taking away merit based admittance for a quota system only serves to debase the level of ability in these schools which would find a them to debase the quality of education provided ultimately destroying them. It is meant to deprive smart kids of an education.
36
For over 100 years, immigrants & children of immigrants understood that education was a means of attaining upward social & economic mobility. Italians, Russians, Germans & Jewish coming to NYC sought quality education to escape the ghetto. Today many Asians (China, India, Viet Nam, Cambodia, etc.) looked to New York's 3 elite high schools to have their children go onto colleges and professional careers as almost 100% of the graduates of these schools go to 4-year institutions & many to Ivy League & prestigious schools (MIT, Cal Tech, Stanford, etc.). There are too many factors that make racial diversity impossible! There were severe operating and capital cuts under Rudy Giuliani to balance NYC's budget. Elimination of tracking in elementary schools results in mediocrity in the classroom. Gifted & Talented Programs & Special Progress Programs were cut. Reduced resources especially in Black & Hispanic neighborhoods has led to the rise of Charter Schools some of which are purely profit oriented. There are cultural differences in respect for education, unequal parental involvement, uninformed parents, single parent families, etc. Today, diBlasio and Carranza offer a half baked solution for 3 schools while the rest of the system continues to flounder. Add Carranza's racist comments pitting Asians vs. Blacks & Hispanics, and you have a true "No-Win" scenario. Don't try to force diversity at just 3 schools but try to improve all schools from elementary & middle school on up.
40
Where do you even begin with this?
Why is this exam controlled by Albany in the first place?
Why is the Mayor spending half his time on a presidential campaign for which "quixotic" doesn't even seem like the right word, and not minding the business of the city he runs?
Meanwhile, where was the years-long, intensive public opinion campaign? I am reading comments on this very page in which teachers (!) claim that the black population just simply can not hack it at these schools and Asian students are just better suited for them.
This entire effort has been disastrously mismanaged by a man who has his sights set entirely on a different office and a different constituency than the one he currently serves. Shame on de Blasio in particular. This has been so badly handled, I'm not sure how long it will take before reform can even be attempted again.
11
@QTCatch10
It isn't that black students can't hack it or they aren't smart. It is the environment and lack of support in the home/culture.
I taught in a school that was 100% Black and Latino and poor, in the projects. I say with no hesitation that the BLACK AND LATINO KIDS WERE SMART AS WHIPS!
But most of them didn't work hard. And the ones who wanted to learn, learned DESPITE the kids who wanted to distract them from getting their education.
Now my students are also poor and from immigrant families. They are all English Language Learners from many far flung places. They work hard and fight tooth and nail to grow. It's incredible to watch.
Don't underestimate desire to learn (and often it comes from the home). Children adopt the attitudes and values of their families!
26
@Cookie Czar
Perhaps, and I am certainly no expert on this, but most immigrants come to this country out of choice and with a strong desire to succeed. That is not the black experience. Blacks came here as slaves, stayed slaves for more than 200 years and then spent another 100 years or so under Jim Crow. Even to this day, there is substantial discrimination. Without overgeneralizing, that experience - which is so different from the immigrant experience - may have resulted in a different perspective on what is possible (or likely) to come from any educational effort that they put forth.
5
1. Why don't the politicians look at the racial imbalance in the basketball and football teams? Getting into the NBA and kindred leagues means tens of millions of dollars. Getting into a very good high school means an increase in expected yearly income of only tens of thousands of dollars. However, it is obvious: on average Chinese kids don't play basketball and football as well as young people in some other ethnic groups! Plain and simple. The reasons behind this phenomenon is irrelevant for the current controversy.
2. As a person who grew up in a family which could not afford to support me to play ball games but could afford to buy paper and pencils and dictionaries for me to practice mathematics problems and memorize English words, I don't get jealous about the large incomes and celebrity status of ball-game players.
25
This kind of "equality" is what makes the democrats laughable and vulnerable. I say that as a liberal.
You have a test system that's merit based, however flawed it may be. Many Asian familes, who are often poor or middle-class, sacrifice everything to educate their children to send to this school. This sacrifice is not inconsequential. They do not eat out. They do not take vacation. The parents sometimes doesn't even take a single day off for an entire year. The kids often don't even get smartphones, toys, and fancy shoes and clothings. Why? Because Asians tend to highly emphasize education above all things.
And this is how you'll treat these hard working people? Giving them a big fat fingers to their sacrifice?
Do you really want to give the other minorities an equal chance? Educate them when they are younger in elementary and middle school. Educate them so that these kids will be able to take the exam and pass it. That's how you level the ground.
Teach them how to fish. Don't just give them the fish which someone really worked really hard for.
If you don't understand this difference of equality, Democrats will lose the votes of many liberals.
56
Keep the test. Lauder's ideas have merit. Establish more specializes high schools and programs in each borough. Identity gifted and talented children early: the kids who can do well are noticeable very early in elementary school. Create programs in every school to Target them and nurture them from day one. Provide free test prep.
Finally, you don't have the go to a specialized high school to go to college and succeed. There seems to be this notion that if you don't go to Stuyvesant or Bronx Science, you' re guaranteed failure. Most people succeed without going to a specialized high school. Go to school every day, pay attention, do your homework, study for the test, and READ, READ, READ, and you can still go to a good college and develop a good career.
And in the end, it all starts in the home. Some interesting but politically incorrect and inconvenient facts: statistics on single parent households: African-American is 70%, Hispanic is 50%, Whites is 30%, Asians is 17%. That should tell you something about racial disparities in specialized schools.
29
I attended one of these schools and we had Black and Hispanic classmates. There was never a doubt they earned their way i n through merit, as did everyone else.
My own parents never finished high school and were immigrants. They knew nothing about specialized high schools and I was in Catholic school when I heard about it from a friend and decided to start preparing for the exams (when I was 12).
The people who really want something always figure out a way to work for it and a meritocracy that is color blind is the only way everyone gets and equal chance, without connections or special considerations that have become so rampant at the university level these days.
28
This is not about Asians defending privilege. Asian students gain entry, not because of privilege, but by hard work and sacrifice. The acceptances are earned. It's not about legacy. It's not affirmative action. But if the issue is with a single high stakes test, why not determine admissions based on average state test performance during the middle school years? Fine, get rid of the single high stakes test, but not the idea of testing.
Punishing people for working hard is the surest path to mediocracy and worse.
44
Since everybody must take the Regent's exam, why not use those scores? The top 5% gets automatic admission.
4
@Peter
Because the Regents exams are generally very easy, there is a clustering of students at the top. Therefore, it would be difficult to differentiate top performers because there would be too many students who qualify and not enough seats. The SHSAT is a challenging test because it helps to differentiate the students who are minimally prepared vs. the ones who are well prepared. In other words, it helps to tease out the score in the right hand side of a bell curve.
20
Regents given In HS. So too late to use for specialized HS.
9
Dear Peter,
Thanks to the poor quality of education given to most black and Latino students in middle school, your proposal probably would not alter the lack of diversity.
4
As an old (1948) graduate of Brooklyn Tech, I know that the schools success in turning "lower class" kids into "upper class " kids rested upon the interaction between the students themselves. It was they (the specially selected ones) who challenged each other, not the teachers (not specially selected). Doing away withe the selection process would destroy the positive contributions these schools can make to our society. I recognize the discrepancy between the city's ethnic composition and that of the specializye dshools. The solution is not to destroy their special status but to help more "disadvantaged" students overcome their disadvantafes in pre-, elementary, and middle schools. Mr. Lauders' suggestion seem to have a lot of practical merit - they should be followed.
29
While the reporting in this article is largely accurate and factual, I am dismayed by how the reporters describe de Blasio’s plan as “to desegregate specialized schools.” No, the specialized schools and their admission system are NOT segregated. The racial disparity is caused by the uneven and, dare I say, broken public education system, but it is not segregation. This kind of loose use of language does not help the discussion one bit, and it’s symptomatic of this era of holding onto whatever narrative of one’s choosing with no regard to the facts.
53
Unfortunately, tracking is now a dirty word in education because it produces “racial disparities”. However, despite the no doubt virtuous intentions of the anti-tracking movement, the biggest losers are academically able poor children of color.
I recently had a second grade class that ranged academically from the 1st percentile to the 96th (concentrated in the <20th percentiles). My top two students could have handled a much faster and more rigorous classroom than what mine had to be to accommodate my much more numerous low performers. They had already started getting lazy, since their slapdash efforts were so much better than their classmates that they always got A’s anyway.
If we could have split the second grade classes into a high and low section AND allowed some remediation of the lower kids, all of them would have learned more.
And, since my school, like most in my area, is all minority, the results wouldn’t have been “racially disparate”.
41
A two part grading system could help here. Two grades are given and then blended to get the final grade. One is for academic achievement. The other is given based on effort. This system encourages all students to do their best giving maximum effort. Including those who breeze to an A. If their Effort grade is C then they get a B final grade. This system was advanced by Joey Gauld, founder of the Hyde School in Maine and is still in use with great results. It works and sets you up with a positive mental attitude and confidence for the rest of your life.
1
Z97 is providing information about a second grade class. Second grader students don’t receive letter grades.
@Lynn in Seattle, actually, where I am they do. The funny thing is that the kids understand the system and aren’t fooled by everyone getting “passing” grades. Many burst into tears when they find a C on their report card. They know a C means you can’t read. Parents are a little less clued in and district administration acts like they wholeheartedly believe the whole charade. I sometimes wonder whether they are genuinely delusional or merely profoundly dishonest.
5
You can't fight racism with a racist solution. The simple solution for the DOE would be to create maybe 2 more elite schools per borough. But it won't happen because it would only solve the educational problem. It seems the Board wants to punish whites/Asians for being successful. Sorry. But that's so obvious.
24
Funny how the Asian community claims they are in poverty and need these schools. Yet, they are silent on any other issues affecting the city as a whole. However, touch the free education provided by these great schools and they start protesting. What this comes down to is the Asian lobby has a monopoly on education and doesnt want it to be changed. De Blasio isnt a full time Mayor and will be out of the Prez race shortly. The Schools chancellor apparently never read up on NYC politics.
3
lower the bar and when the graduates finally get into the work force they will have trouble keeping a job when they are not up to the task. Let's end MCAT's too while we are at it because maybe then I can get into med school and let's make the other reuqirements less stringent. This is what happens when you give everyone a trophy and don't keep score at kids' games.
37
Mayor de Blasio and the school chancellor are lazy and incompetent with the racist policy to eliminate the elite HS exam. They do not want to do the actual hard work of trying to improve education for the 1+ million students. We know the Mayor has shown no interest of actually doing the job of a Mayor and running the City. Look at the homeless, terrible housing, wasting of tax payer money, corruption surrounding his administration.... He is a part timer looking for the next job. He should quit if he is not willing to work for this City.
34
These collection of articles by Eliza Shapiro are so over the top biased. Isn't it more appropriate to place them in the opinion section?
32
The NBA is 74.4 % African American. Only the hardest working, most skilled, highly competitive athletes make the cut. Should we lower the bar so that more Asian are represented in basketball? Currently they only make up less than 1%.
43
This was not a "plan to desegregate New York’s specialized schools" as the subhead claims: they've been desegregated for a long time with many non-whites attending--although not many blacks and Hispanics.
If you want to see segregated schools, you need look no farther than the neighborhood schools elsewhere in NYC, or just about any other major northern city, including Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, St. Louis, etc. But this is because the neighborhoods are segregated.
But whoever wrote that subhead should be disciplined or assigned to a different job. Isn't the Times worried about the right calling this "fake news"?
30
I am just so dismayed by a)the absence of concern that middle school aged children have to write an exam that will determine the difference between an excellent education and a less than mediocre one compared to other nations. b) the continued blame of Asian immigrants and their children for a problem created by lawmakers that have segregated not only education but the funding- disparities in public school quality at this level should be illegal. c) that this concern over elite public high schools continues to deepen and reinforce our bias toward children we perceive as talented and gifted and prejudice against the majority of children of color- when will the government and media focus on the quality of education for middle and low income children that have average grades? being average has never penalized rich White children ...
4
Time to embrace the charter school concept, and to consider charter school kids from the pool for admission. Would have loved to see the Discovery Plan, which is straight out of New York State HEOP, which would admit kids just under the test score cutoff, and put them in a "Specialized High School Summer Program." (like what the NYS colleges do!). But that isn't happening, at least anytime soon. Time to look at charter school kids (in my son's school, they have quite a bit of rigor in their schoolwork! Yes, I know, all charters are not created equal, but....), OR.......time to make a complete overhaul of the pre-high school system in this city! OR.....do a full-blown test-prep initiative throughout the school system, which not only teaches test content, but test-taking technique!
With what I said, above, let me note that some of the comments in that article are so blatant! When "activists" want to refer to people "giving up basketball and stay home and study"......!
2
Here is the educational background of Richard Carrenza the man who wants to tear down the elite NYC Specialized High Schools.
1. BA in Secondary Education- University of Arizona
2. MA in Education with specialization Educational Leadership- University of Arizona
3. Currently pursuing a doctorate of education through Nova Southeastern University in educational leadership.
This not the educational background of a man who knows how to educate gifted STEM students. He has NEVER had a real academic major himself in college. He seems to be a member in excellent standing in the PC Diversity industry. What on earth is a BA in Secondary Education or an MA in Educational leadership?
Experience
1. High school, bilingual social studies and music teacher
2. Principal, in Tucson, Arizona
3. Northwest Region superintendent for the Clark County School District in Las Vegas.
4. Superintendent San Francisco Unified School District, where he was accused of creating a hostile environment for women.
5. Houston Independent School District (HISD)
Then on to NYC... and from there? Oblivion.
70
@Lucretius Thank you, finally !
13
Deblasio's claim to eliminate racial disparity in specialized high schools by getting rid of the SHSAT is absurd. He has not done an iota of useful things for the New York City public school system. The test measures scholastic abilities, and if after 8 years of schooling kids don't make the cut off, it's not because of their race, but because of their educational opportunities or lack therof and their own academic capabilities. Deblasio has done nothing to improve educational opportunities for black snd hispanic children in underperforming schools, and it is laughable to assume that eliminating the SHSAT will magically cure the issues long plaguing these communities. What his plan will do if accomplished, is destroy the best public high schools in the city, without providing any alternatives.
The public school system will not be able to lift every student out ignorance and illiteracy, but the best it can do is provide a level playing field at the beginning and create a curriculum that encourages children to learn based on their abilities, that means having G&T classes in every school and not dumbing everything down. Our children need a good education to be productive members of the society and compete in the job market which these days is very international. We need strong academic curriculum early on and awards based on merit, not hand outs to a politician's preferred minority.
26
DeBlasio and fellow travelers are wrong about so much, it's astounding. I am so thankful his worst ideas get shot down, even in a Dem-controlled State legislature.
But when will we ever elect another great Mayor like Bloomberg? When will we ever get some NON-communists onto the City Council?
A big part of the problem is the odd timing of our City elections.
We need to align our Mayoral and City Council elections with the big Federal election every four years - either with the Presidential election or two years after. Not the odd years they now occupy, with such poor voter turnout.
No one notices, but neither wrong-thinking DeB nor the closet reds on the Council have a mandate from anywhere near a majority of registered NYC voters.
18
@znlgznlg: "When will we ever get some NON-communists onto the City Council?"
Wow. Fellow Travelers? Communists? A perfect example of the poison instilled into two generations by the propaganda of Harry Truman's unnecessary Cold War. This is education in the Real World. What small children learn they never forget.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
3
@Rev. E. M. Camarena, PhD
So is the racial grievance - anti-liberal culture inculcated into young adults throughout US academia.
4
What is tragically revealing about this educational calamity in the NYC public schools is the systemic lack of intellectual brilliance and genius in developing and creating an admission paradigm to address the racial disparities in this admission process.
It is astounding to read the excuses and absence of alternative ideas and strategies to create a admission process that truly reflects in large percentages students that are Black and Brown.
Indicting the parents of these students of color is not the way forward here nor is the acceptance of mediocre ideas to replace the current failed test driven paradigm the way of of this rabbit hole.
At some point people other than rich White billionaires should get an opportunity to create and develop admission driven strategies not the failed efforts of the usual suspects.
BLM
5
I will be a contrarian here: When I consider the shape of the world today, and realize that the world today was fashioned by the most well-educated among us, I cannot harbor illusions that our current educational system is the way to go.
All I learned through school that really serves me are basic math (I use algebra daily) and the art of reading and writing. It is what we do learn in life that which counts
Life experience beats book learning IMO. It has been of more use to me than anything schools tried to cram into my head.
Education comes from the word EDUCE - meaning "to draw out," not to cram in.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
1
Sorry about the typos. Another life lesson I learned and ignored was... never post a comment before coffee! ;)
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
3
The world today was hardly fashioned by the most educated among us. It developed in a complex manner, forged by many forces. Don’t blame intelligent and well-educated people for the state of things!
Life experience and “book learning” are complementary forms of knowledge, not necessarily mutually-exclusive ones. I have frequently used my “book learning” as the basis for making sense of my experiences.
You are correct that education draws something out of a student — critical understanding of phenomena. Yet formal education provides students with both the means to analyze as well as the basic information to consider a topic.
9
@Tristan Dolciano: One need only go down the list of all the prominent and powerful politicians and media "pundits" cranked out over the years by the Ivy League like so much bologna to see the damage they have done to the world.
In any case, I am glad, judging by your final paragraph, to see there's at least one wide-eyed optimist in the world.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
1
Eliminating exams is simply NOT "desegragation" it is discrimination against the brighter students, whatever their ethnic background may be
39
If de Blasio and Carranza were interested in helping Black and Hispanic students, they would work on improving k-8 schools.
36
Once again the structural reality of racial exclusionary policies continues to wage racial disparities for Black and Brown students in our educational systems
Once again artificial instruments created by White America are defining not only admission metrics but invoking the narrative that Black and Brown students are inferior and not worthy of being considered for superior academic opportunities.
Tests have always been the last barrier of a segregation driven school standard. Tests provide the optics of merit and objectivity when the outcomes overwhelmingly benefit Whites and now selective Asian students.
The idea that students who don’t measure on these racially bias tests constructed by Whites cannot archive in elite academic curriculums is fundamentally racist . The reality of soft bigotry and low expectations can exist even in the presence of Asian students!
There is no logical foundation to continue this paradigm that continues to exclude Black and Brown students
BLM
@Thrasher
So your answer is to reject high performing Asian and white students in favor of lower performing black and Hispanic students? Perhaps your energy would be better spent figuring out how to help black and Hispanic students meet higher standards.
42
Minority students in our educational systems have always been under assault and held in contempt from intentional efforts to bar our admissions into elite schools systems and advanced curriculum students to the realties of attacks on our intelligence and humanity.
This admission process continues the legacy of contempt and the specter of soft bigotry and low expectations for Minority states the presence of some Asian students excelling in this exclusionary admission process does little to alter this legacy and reality for Black and Brown students.
BLM
Why would the mayor want to trade to end the exam in exchange for more gifted and talented programs for backs and Hispanic students?? He should create MORE gifted and talented programs in black and Latin communities regardless!!!
17
This was a tiresome and patently dishonest discussion that has accomplished three over-arching pre-determined goals/talking points:
1. Make lack of achievement by Black students based on bad culture/disorganized family pathology trope the reflexive answer as to why there is an achievement gap
2. Allow the current racial makeup to continue excluding Black children who are eligible but unaware of the opportunity- until it's too late sending them to Charter Schools that are not as well-proven in their achievement results
3. Deflect the discussion away from the ongoing destruction of rigorous Middle School programs in predominantly Black neighborhoods and the rise of vulture Charters in their place.
The numerous, albeit anecdotal, reports and reflections from former SHS graduates from all three schools, were seemingly ignored and dismissed as very atomized individual achievement at best or lies at worst.
This whole debate was shameful from beginning to end.
28
@Doubting thomasina
Political means will not solve family/culture problems just like it won't for drug/alcohol addiction problems.
If the objective of special highs school is to select and nurture those students who have proclivity to academic achievement, then let is be so. Factoring radical composition into selection is not going to achieve equality.
As mentioned in the article, those Asian students are poor as well, so they face the same issues for affording test preps as others. Shouldn't people find out what are the problems instead of focusing on politics?
36
@Doubting thomasina.
Good parenting is now a highly competitive art. The task of parents, all parents, is to adopt a family ethos that places education at the top of their child's endeavors. Complete the picture by having quality schools with quality teachers at all levels.
4
@Doubting thomasina
"Black children who are eligible but unaware of the opportunity."
How can anyone who lives in NYC -- and who cares about their children -- be "unaware" of the existence of Stuyvesant? What planet are they living on? This is a basic obligation of being a parent.
37
This is a real problem and reflects the complexity of things like measuring achievement. Diblasio's plan came out of a glaring issue, that black and hispanic kids weren't getting into the elite high schools in any kind of numbers, and then assumed the problem is the method of entry. This is a traditional problem with numbers based analysis, on the surface it shows one thing but if you look deeper, you see complexity. In the 1960's there was anger that in the city college system, the flagship schools, especially CCNY, admitted relatively few black or hispanic students. Under political pressure, they made the city colleges open admission as long as you graduated high school, and the result was a degradation of the system by any measure. What they found out was that many of the kids were ill prepared for college, didn't have the skills, and either they spent a lot of resources on remediation, or they watered down the degree in many cases.
The numbers don't lie, but the answers are tricky and often are uncomfortable,lot easier as with open admissions to change the system. There are issues with the families many black and hispanic kids come from, issues with poor schools that even kids trying to achieve are hurting them, and also lack of focus on achieving admission in those schools. It is hard when you struggle to give kids even a basic education to think of helping the kids who are achieving. In the end, it is solving those problems that make sense, not gaming the system
16
@Eliza Shapiro and Vivian Wang
Thank you for your more balanced, professional reporting in this article compared to past articles on this topic of specialized high school admissions.
However, I still do take issue with your use of the word "segregation" as in:
"Now, with the proposal to change specialized school admissions dead in Albany, Mr. de Blasio will likely face pressure to confront the enormity of the city’s school segregation problem."
"Segregation" is a loaded, politically-charged word and implies a nefarious motive given our country's shameful history and the legacy of slavery. Certainly, the Asian American community would not like to be associated with this type of language.
In future articles, would you consider using less loaded and more objective and neutral language such as the "city's lack of diversity problem"?
31
My niece is an incoming freshman in NYC Public Schools. As an outside observer to the NYC high school admissions system I was a bit shocked how difficult and labor intensive it is.
It's surprising to me how many New York Times readers seem oblivious to how much time and effort is required to get your kid into a preferred school of their choice. Tours during daytime hours, meetings, tests and auditions on Saturday's , obscure process's with deadlines.
From the outside it looks to me like it is perfectly designed so that if you have college educated parents with the ability to take time off of work you can steer their kids through the process, or if you can pay someone to do it for you that probably works too.
I bet it doesn't work very well for a parent working 3 jobs for 60 hours a week and so their kids stay in an under performing neighborhood school. In that way it is probably working exactly as designed, and that is before high stakes testing and test prep.
7
These schools are called elite not because of the teachers or the Principal but based on the intellectual ability of the students therein. Any teacher who teach chemistry/math/physics or any other subject will be teaching the same knowledge in whichever school they are attached to. What I hear from many parents of these elite schools is that they are relieved because there are no disruptive students in those schools. If Bill Blasio can remedy that problem I don't think we need elite schools or entrance exams. Academically superior students will shine in any school they are in.
24
@Don
You are mistaken about the rigor and pace of the classes at the elite schools. Average students would not be able to keep up.
24
I have been following this since the proposal was first made public. I am quite happy that this program failed--it didn't address the root of the problem and only pitted one group against another. Instead of focusing on the few very specialized schools, it would be better for everyone if standards were raised across all schools. We, as a society, also need to realize that not everyone is going to be the "best" and that that is okay. Not everyone is meant to be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, a scientist, etc. and that's ok. There's a natural curve and people are going to fall all over it. Instead of focusing on the very brilliant who are likely to succeed no matter the circumstance, let's focus on bringing everybody to a standard that makes sense for society. We don't all need to have taken calculus by the time we graduate high school, or know how to make robots. But all of us should have a solid foundation of basic math, know how to express oneself clearly in both oral and written communication, and be able to read and comprehend. We haven't even achieved these foundational goals yet--let's work on that.
17
Given the size of the NYC school system why are there only a few "good" schools. Instead of worrying about attending the Bronx School of Science NYC should offer these courses in all schools.
10
@Greg H.
Very few students have the cognitive ability to master the advanced content and fast pace of the classes in elite schools.
16
I understand that if one covers the education beat that SHSAT stories are 'sexy," but only a few thousand students attend those schools. There are over one million in the NYC public school system! Most of those students have reading and math skills that are way below grade level. Tragically, there are a huge number of nearly illiterate students graduating from upper grades in New York public schools every year. It would be great if the Times paid even a small percentage of the attention to those schools and students that it has been providing in its exhaustive overage of the few elite high schools covered by the SHSAT. Those kids are deserving of a good education and the repercussions for them of a failing system are are more dire than whether or not one get into Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, or Brooklyn Tech.
32
yes, please. the Times' racially charged coverage on this matter, and lack of concern anywhere in the paper over issues that Asian Americans face is a concern for me as a subscriber. New York continues to be a city whose power, politics and business are dominated by wealthy White men. concerns over diversity when there is an Asian majority many White liberals feel ambivalence toward is safe- concerns over schools that are favored on funding because they have more White students is not.
5
While I definitely don't support Carranza/BdB's proposal and I especially don't support the hamhanded process they used to push this poorly-thought out plan through, I would welcome an alternative admissions criterion.
Requiring young kids to spend hours on weekends and evenings cramming for a high-stakes test that serves only to gate admission to a high school seems like not the greatest use of time.
I don't have an easy solution, but wouldn't it be preferable (for the kids, for society) if these students could instead channel their intelligence and energy into more productive pursuits, like an instrument, sports, writing, an internship, etc?
3
@Samantha A kid whose parents don't speak English well, work minimum wage at best, and focus relentlessly on their kids education--and who watches their kid get into a tested high school, and on to a top college--is not going to believe that sports or an internship is more productive.
21
@Samantha; internships? These are middle schoolers. Enough with the bogus internships...bad enough for college kids. Better to have a legitimate, paying after school or summer job, than a resume building internship.
9
Finally, someone stops Carranza from playing the race card and taking over DOE.
47
de Blasio... Really!
A person so devoid of humanity that Cuomo looks almost like a normal human. The plan to jettison merit as a criteria in all US endeavors is a stain on our society. Not as big a stain as the people promoting it... Reparations, Green new deal, Illegality as a badge of honor...
31
Has anyone in the New York City education industry considered elevating the standards of the lesser schools to match the elite schools? The idea of "elite" or "top" schools seems to invalidate the progressive mantra of social equality for all...The Times could provide a real service by researching the "bottom" schools in NYC. What are the nine - to pick a random number - bottom schools that woke New Yorkers would hate to have their kids get stuck in? If Stuy and Science were just run of the mill high quality schools - peers among peers - wouldn't that benefit everyone?...In a way, this elitist selection process is like livestock breeding. The best stock get the best treatment, and the culls wind up on a hamburger bun with ketchup and pickles....Who wins and who loses in that world?
9
@Albert Edmud
Do you really want a system where every student is held to the same standard? That either means failure for many or waste and boredom for the best.
12
The very notion of academic merit is self-referential nonsense, the product of a longtime effort to justify racial and class hierarchies. Even if enrolment figures were less obviously products of a racist education system the test should be abolished as the decisive factor in admissions for this reason alone. It is fair to demand academic preparedness, and maybe a test can help check that - but that’s different.
1
@Christian Haesemeyer
Lets choose students for physical science and engineering majors at MIT and Cal Tech at random, since there are no differences in intelligence. If we just had competent public schools then anyone could get a PhD.
16
If blacks and Hispanics aren't able to pass the entrance exams, we should be asking why.
I personally believe that talents are evenly distributed in the human population, so I wouldn't argue that the prevalence of Asians in these top schools is because they are intellectually superior. But I don't doubt that there is an Asian "work ethic" that is stronger than the work ethic of most whites, blacks and Hispanics. The Asian kids simply work harder than the rest of us, so they are doing well.
So, what do we need to do to bring up the preparedness levels of those who are under-represented in the top schools? This is the problem that needs to be solved. Dumbing-down the best schools won't raise up the kids who can't currently get in; it will only dilute the educational experience of the best students.
Equality is meaningless if it really represents a diminution of the quality of education for the hardest-working. We are insulting the intelligence of a large segment of the school-age population when we suggest that we need to lower the standards so they have a chance. Let's give them the tools to put their talents to work and then they will be able to succeed on their own merits.
27
Amid chatter about the “inherent” unfairness of enrollment slots going to “unqualified” students, lets not forgot this NY Times article that slipped through unnoticed (and closed to discussion) a few days ago. The notion of who’s considered qualified remains unacceptably nuanced, therefore this conversation needs to continue.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/17/upshot/nyc-schools-shsat-504.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
Retired teacher from NYC high school. Asian students do what too many non Asian students will not do to succeed: pay attention in class, not talk among themselves while teachers are trying to teach, come prepared for school with pen/pencil and notebooks, etc. In the same class my Asian students would get upper 90's on exams, while the other students would score much lower. Quit blaming "schools" and focus on how the non Asian communities fail to encourage proper behavior and a work ethic in school.
51
"It's very offensive to hear all the racial coding: that African-Americans are not good enough,..."
Doesn't the proposed bill imply the same thing?
('Mr. de Blasio and others have argued that the only way to increase the no. of black and Hispanics students in the schools is to eliminate the exam.')
26
Fix what's broken not what's working. This is a poor excuse not to raise the standards at other schools.
12
So, the test is somehow racially biased? Math, what is no doubt the harder part of the test, is race neutral. Or, in other words, there's no Asian math. Just math. (Not to mention that many Asians to succeed on the reading section of the test are not even native speakers of English.)
37
It's disappointing to see that so many people are willing to continue a system that in essence excludes large portions of the population because they are in the wrong school, the wrong neighborhood, or even the "wrong" family. But the testing requirement is a reflection of what's wrong in so much of education today. Do well on the test and you think you've "earned" a place in a good school. Ugh.
When I attended the Bronx HS of Science in the 70's, one of the most fantastic things about my education there was the incredibly diversity of the student body. Ensuring this diversity should be a priority but not by eliminating the test. If the key differences today are that minority black and Hispanic students are both unaware of the entrance exam and unable to afford study courses that wealthier prospects take, then the FIX is to a) develop an awareness-building campaign at all schools in NYC and b) providing access to study courses free of charge.
12
This does seem like a cultural issue that could reflect a racial issue and I'll apologize in advance if pointing out similarities might look like stereotypes.
Asian culture has a strong emphasis on study, which is memorizing and recalling specific information for specific tests. Is someone who is able to memorize specific information enough for a period of time smarter then someone who learns what they need and apply it to creative solutions? Or are they just different aspects of intelligence.
if a parent forbids their child from sports so they can study instead does that mean the child is more self motivated or they never had a choice in the matter.
My problem with this is that the Asian and White communities don't want to change the admission process because culturally it's working for them. They know how to work the system to the advantage of their kids where sadly it's not working to the advantage of other cultures who don't have either financial or community resources to know where, when, or how to prep. The real world does not need us memorize rote facts as much as we used to as we can easily look it up. What society rewards is how to maximize our efficiency into problem solving.
I'd love to see more diversity in how the tests work. Sort of like the MIT application process. Group projects, problems to solve you won't know of ahead of time but you work to figure it out. Innovation and creativity is how our country thrives. I'd love if testing was able to gauge that.
2
Dear Shannon,
The admission process isn't working for white students. The percentage of white students at specialized schools has plummeted, they've lost more representation in numbers and percentage than any other group.
However, the test itself is not biased in the least. It tests only math and English, not cultural trivia, and both are required for success. The bias is coming from impoverished school districts not preparing students for the test, or teaching them well at all. The admission process has nothing wrong with it, the level of public schooling is the problem.
30
I have a daughter who was tested into Hunter High School a few years ago. She worked hard to get into the school. She is very happy there as her peers are just like her, focused and very competitive. But my son, despite me doubling the efforts to help him with his preparations for the test, it doesn't seem to be moving the needle. (His IQ is 135) There are kids with different abilities and you can prep all you want, you may not achieve the results. Elite schools are not for all.
19
By the time some children reach Kindergarten , they have already fallen behind the mainstream . No amount of extra learning can
make up for the lost opportunities in the first years . Some communities are resistant to anything that other parents do for
their toddlers like reading to them. Public libraries at no cost have
a wide supply of books covering all languages and nationalities.
But an adult or even a teenager taking out library books and
reading out loud and pointing at pictures costs nothing but time and
prepares the child to be ready to learn.
9
Make it possible for children to succeed, not easier, from a healthy pregnancy to a stable neighborhood, from functional families to stable jobs, from affordable day care to well-paid teachers in K thru 8. Schools are just one part of the equation of children's development. "Easier" success is ultimately false and undermines true self-confidence.
8
The two sides in this debate (Lauder and DeBlasio) represent: 1) callous indifference and the defense of privilege (Lauder), and 2) window dressing for a fundamentally broken system (DeBlasio).
Tests can be used to assess strengths and weaknesses and target appropriate intervention based on needs. However, the purchase of test preparation vitiates the use of tests as a school placement instrument. It's called "gaming the system".
It's bad enough when people game the system for access to private schools but it's completely immoral when used in the context of public education.
The only serious answer if someone honestly defends fair and full access to publicly funded education is a socialist solution.
A good education starts at home. How is that possible if a child begins life with the disadvantage of a single parent family and that parent works multiple low wage jobs to make ends meet? It clearly isn't!
Raising children is a social responsibility. Quality childcare and quality pre-school are essential. America needs to stop funding endless war around the world and start funding quality education for all.
Should there be institutions that cater to special needs (gifted and slow learners)? Yes. Should there be privileged public education? No. Should parents be able to game the current setup with test prep to give their children an unfair advantage? No.
We need an overhaul of society from top to bottom. Either that or we need to drop the pretense of fairness and equality.
1
Test prep is simply that: preparing for the test. It’s not gaming the system.
22
@Ed
Should parents spend time encouraging their kids to study hard and put down the X-box? Would that be "gaming the system"?
12
@GC
That's nothing more than baseless assertion. It is very definitely gaming the system.
It's very simple. There is nothing genius about it. People with money pay other people who promise to increase their (or their children's) scores through accessing private test prep.
The people paying the money make a calculation: 1) do I have the money for the test prep? and, 2) will the results of the score increase be worth the expenditure. It's a simple cost/benefit analysis.
It's a currently legal form of bribery. This has nothing to do with education. You game the system by paying money like you could pay a corrupt cop to make a parking ticket go away.
Given the infatuation that many of the commenters have with test prep as a legitimate mechanism of advancement I would say that a significant section of the public has bought into the concept of corruption.
I never took test prep. I never even read a free book on test prep. I was a National Merit Finalist fair and square.
My son never did any test prep. I taught him how to read and write at the age of two. After that he was a self-starter and he was always four years ahead in school. He was admitted as a student at the Davidson Academy (a public school for the profoundly gifted at UNR). He began taking university classes in the 8th grade. All without "test prep".
A country with pretend free and equal in public education is just that: pretend. And most people are smart enough to see that.
2
I am glad the test remains. After the college admissions scandals I am glad to see a meritocracy exists somewhere. I hope that the middle schools that are under represented at the SHASAT schools are enriched. The failing is that those middle schools are left behind.
22
If Carranza knew anything about EDUCATION (That is, teaching; I believe he doesn't), he would visit the middle schools that send the most students to specialized high schools to find out what they are doing correctly. Then he would make them the standard for all middle schools. A lot of work? Yes, but well worth it, and that's his job.
If Carranza knew anything about NEW YOUR CITY, he would know the history of City College and what happened after they lowered the admissions standards. AND he would know that the many (and there are many) qualified black and hispanic students in the city are given scholarships to private schools, which are now committed to diversity.
33
How unfair can you get? I mean, really, only allowing the brightest, most knowledgeable students to get into the elite High Schools?
Seriously, however, insisting that there be racial balance in the advanced schools makes as much sense as insisting on racial balance in remedial education programs. Both are designed to give special support to students outside of the middle of the normal distribution, and selection shoild be on an individual basis.
29
There's no question that discrimination in hiring and lending has hurt people of color. But specialized schools such as Stuyvesant require students with some minimum essentials of knowledge and skills irrespective of ethnicity. When the grade schools and middle schools do their jobs right, in neighborhoods with large populations of Blacks and Hispanics, these students will pass those entrance exams and thrive in those schools. Simply allowing students to enter who have done well in mediocre schools will either result in these students feeling like fish out of water; or force the schools to degrade their standards thereby hurting all their students.
13
Proactive measures rather than reactive measures need to be taken. An example is the three year old preschool being implemented in impoverished neighborhoods. Test preparation during school hours may be provided. This ability to answer these test questions improve the thinking ability and knowledge of students.
4
This is not the sort of problem that can be fixed at the end stages of the process. Especially not by a servo mechanism.
The primary goal needs to be to maximize performance in literacy and numeracy at age 11. Tightly correlating "grade level" with chronological age at such an early stage of child development gets in the way of that goal, by the way. There's 3-4 years of play in terms of the age of readiness to acquire scholastic skills; a school that insists on the Procrustean bed of fitting all students into an "average" (i.e., the fallacy that all 7-year olds = "2nd grade" skills readiness) valorizes the precocious high achievers (at the expense of the contempt of their peers) while traumatizing the late bloomers with a self-image of lower intelligence (and acting-out reactions) when all most of them really need at ages 4-9 is some flexibility to account for a transient delay in maturation at that early stage of their life.
(This is not to be confused with "social promotion" in the middle/high school years, which is simply a way to cover up an earlier failure to supply basic skills at the elementary school level.)
Instead, you get the phenomenon of 7-year olds having their intelligence reified as "slow" (low), for not reading and figuring at a "2rd grade level."
The same thing happens when a kid's physical/athletic skill is typed at an early age.
Basic child development psychology is disregarded in public school systems all over this country. It's madness.
5
@DC Reade
How does any of what you're talking about affect the situation under discussion? Black and Hispanic students usually begin life and go through it's stages just as Asian and White students -- or so I'm led to understand. If, as you argue, that basic child development psychology is disregarded in public schools, shouldn't that hold for all races, ethnic groups and colors?
5
@Rea Tarr
You raise a good point.
I don't know. The possibility of differences between populations of the rate of some aspects of physical maturation during early child development may be a taboo topic, but it also might be valuable to study. Although if the schools would simply restructure some of their features to stop mishandling the situation across the board, it might simply resolve itself without any need to over-study it with population genetics studies.
[As for "IQ", I think that the recent revelations about the vast test-dependent differences in the measured scores of diagnosed autistics, depending on whether they take the Weschler or RPM, call the entire notion of "general intelligence" (aka "Spearman's g") into question. Just a tangential observation.]
I think it's also fairly obvious that children raised by parents who insist on the crucial role of the child's own efforts in acquiring learning skills tend to end up with a marked advantage over children whose parents are under the mistaken impression that school is a place where children are simply passively inoculated with scholastic skills because they show up in class.
The social capital of pre-existing household literacy- in any language- can't be under-estimated, either. Consider that within that vast and misleading category known as "Asians", there are some ethnic subpopulations with very low rates of household literacy. The children from those groups usually struggle a lot in school.
2
@DC Reade
reference link supporting the assertion found in the last paragraph of my previous comment: http://cdm15799.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15799coll3/id/361858
1
Good -- the specialized schools are the only aspect of the NYC public education system that has demonstrated long-term high quality. Many parents are forced into near bankruptcy by sending their kids to private schools because the local schools are horrible, even though we're paying taxes.
The mayor refuses to take on unions like Bloomberg to improve school quality, so at least there will remain a few schools that haven't been totally screwed up by this administration.
13
If Carranza and DeBlasio really want to fix NYC schools, how about starting with the fact that WNYC had to conduct SECRET lead testing of NYCs elementary schools because the DOE doesn't want to do such testing.
BTW, all four schools tested found dangerously high levels of lead dust where children as young as 3 are supposed to sit and learn.
Quoting from the article: "Research shows that lead exposure, even at levels below the Centers for Disease Control’s action level, can cause brain damage, learning disabilities, reduced IQ, hyperactivity and other behavioral problems. And it’s this younger age group that spends a lot of classroom time sitting on a rug on the floor, potentially coming into contact with lead dust."
How can kids learning in this environment be expected to succeed at the SHSAT? How can Carranza permit this to go on unchecked while he tilts at windmills?
15
Replace merit with racial, gender, religous, birth order, political belief, and any other basis. what could be more American?
20
Well said !
2
It needs to be studied as to how kids from low income Asian families are able to pass the entrance exams. Is it that they and their families have cultivated a competitive spirit and are putting in more effort in studies at the cost of a normal life? If yes, then Asian families should be disincentivized from making their kids study so hard. That could be one of the steps towards ensuring proportional racial representation in schools that supposedly test merit.
10
Wow. Tell some low income parents to not tell their kids that education and hard work are the keys to success in adult life? And the black and Latin families? Should they tell their children the same?
4
Is the suggestion that Asian families need to be disincentivized from studying meant to be satirical?
5
Last month three Wass tie among 8 middle-schoolers in the Scripps National Spelling Bee. 7 of the 8 were of recent South Asian origin. After each student spelled their final word the camera panned to the parents (note plural). They were crying and beaming over the success of their child. This is what needs to change in NYC.
22
I can't take any reporting by Eliza Shapiro on this subject seriously. As her previous articles demonstrated, she is heavily biased towards eliminating the test and was not above omitting key details to make de Blasio's proposal seem like a valid solution to this systemic problem. If the test is eliminated, we change the lives of maybe 200 black and Hispanic students each year. what about the millions of low income black and Hispanic students that will continue to wallow in low performing schools across the city? Average students make up the bulk of the student population. Why are they not entitled to a proper education too? The amount of money that De Blasio has spent on this vain attempt to make a legacy for himself could have put numerous poor students through college.
52
@T I could not agree with you more. Another omission here - mention Lauder but not Dick Parsons who is also supporting keeping the test and happens to a very successful African American.
The reporting is so slanted that Shapiro's bias comes through. This has happened before time and time again. Adding a Chinese reporter's name to the byline doesn't change that perception.
15
Doing away with tests was a bone-headed idea. What we need is parental and societal appreciation of education ( not just lip service ), so that students study. So that students care to pass. Enrichment for those who are disadvantaged.
As a retired teacher in a minority district, I can attest that many students refuse to study, on the grounds that doing well in school is “white”. There is a pervasive culture of failure. I got a D? Well, I passed, what’s the problem? There is the sense that no matter how well they do, they will not be able to get ahead, so why bother This is a legacy of institutionsal racism.
This culture is not bought into by all of course, but bought by many. Time has to change this. Real opportunities for those who do well will help. Not giving up tests.
29
I cringe every time I read about the mayor's plan and the plans of others to eliminate or modify the entrance exams to Stuyvesant and the other elite schools. It simply makes no sense to eliminate or dumb down exams in order to select the best and the brightest students for admission.
What drives this push to modify or eliminate the exams is the misguided belief that these schools must give equal weight to racial and ethnic equality usually at the expense of high achievers of a particular race, religion or ethnic population that seem to dominate the schools population. In other words the admissions test is responsible for racial divisions and inequality in education.
There are also unsubstantiated and misguided beliefs that equate student ability and access to tutoring and/or special test preparatory courses. Those preparatory advantages are also portrayed as unequal because only the rich have access and again, this too is deemed racial, economic and ethnic inequality.
We can't solve the problems of inequality by doing away with school admission testing.
Promoters of equality want greater equality through lowering standards and also by denying admissions to many well qualified students because there are not enough or too many (supposed) minorities.
Education and student ability should not be about race.
One solution is to offer free tutoring to all prospective test takers. Give equal advantages/access for success but not racial quotas or preference.
Pass or fail.
20
By the time the students are old enough to take the tests , they have had years of mediocre learning and test taking . The ' preparation '
has to start years before and the adults in the family have to make
time to read and interact with their children.
5
Sad that the sub-headline and the article focus on the concept of "segregation". Segregation explicitly and implicitly implies that one group is forcibly separated from another. Not the case here. Of course the social justice warriors will argue that the test is biased but they think everything is biased. I wonder who they'd want as their brain surgeon - the doctor who'd met the highest standards or the one who didn't. Maybe we'll see a change when Dr. Ben Carson is glorified in the Community and not Snoop Dog.
20
As a Stuy grad, I know most of the alumni of the specialized schools will be happy with this result. It's been a big debate topic on our FB page for ages, and I'm glad it's been shot down too, at least people can stop talking about it.
There is nothing biased about the test itself. It tests math and English abilities, both of which are vital for succeeding in high school. The skewed results lately, with less black and white students getting in, shows that middle school education has gotten a lot worse for those groups. There has been no change in the acceptance rate for Latinos, but they should be more represented too, and their middle schools should be improved too.
The solution here is to bring back G&T programs, improve middle school education in all the underfunded districts, and offer free test prep for the SHSAT at all middle schools. Many kids from worse districts never even hear of this test or these schools, which naturally prevents them from getting in.
I know the NYT was fully on the side of getting rid of the test, but sorry guys, you were dead wrong this whole time. That solution would have resulted in the specialized schools becoming just like all other high schools, lowering the tide to lower all boats. What we need to work on instead is improving all schools, creating new specialized schools, but not eliminating a test because people are having trouble passing it.
53
My hometown has two elite public schools -- one high school, one middle school -- with a tough exam required for entrance. The schools regularly rank near the top of the best public schools in the state. This is a school district that is almost 80% minority, but the elite schools' student bodies are 80% white and Asian. Test requirements are already different for black and Latino students. If you throw out the test altogether, you seriously erode academic standards and end up with a school like the one down the street.
15
Dear Mr. de Blasio,
Removing a test does not change the fact that kids aren't prepared enough to have a chance at passing it.
Focus on the middle schools. Increase the availability of enrichment programs across the board for a wider range of abilities.
More outreach to all communities, please.
That said, not everyone can fit into a few special schools. There are simply too few seats.
Add more quality high schools and more quality high school programs. Give more people at every level a chance to excel.
17
Focus on the primary grades . The middle grades are too late to make up the deficiencies in what students have learned. Test taking itself is a skill that can be learned .
2
The "magic" element of elite public high schools in NYC is not dissimilar to the "magic" that occurs at the successful charter schools that serve communities dealing with high levels of poverty. Just getting through the application process is evidence that these kids have a parent who is invested in their child's education enough to research schools and do the leg work to get their child admitted. If you have a teenager in the NYC public schools and have never heard of a specialized high school or the entrance exams, then that kind of speaks volumes about the parent's involvement in their child's education.
24
Mr. Carranza’s and Mr. de Blasio’s plan to rebalance the population of the gifted and talented high schools is highly flawed. Simply getting rid of a rigorous exam to lower the bar for some perceived greater good does not accomplish anything. Should we get rid of medical school entrance exams and state board exams for other professions so we can all ‘feel good’ that everyone is represented in a difficult profession, no matter their ability to preform the job at a competent level?
Keep in mind, many of the graduates of Bronx Science and Stuyvesant go on to practice medicine and engineering. Does anyone want to be operated on by an unqualified MD, or ride across a bridge across a bridge built by a fake honors student who isn’t quite sufficient in complex math or computing/programming skills?
Rather than get rid of a test that has served NYC quite well, it would be better to increase the enrollment of Black and Hispanic students through more organic means. As it is obvious that the majority of the students of the gifted and talented high school students are Asian, why not try to have the ‘underserved’ populations endeavor to replicate the habits of the better performing students?
I propose that the DOE start with the very young children of NYC school teachers and NYC Health Hosp employees (ie - RN’s) and work with the parents and their children at a younger age in order to prepare then for the rigors (and rewards) that are part of attending a gifted and talented HS.
24
Once you change the entrance exam you also have to change every other test and quiz given at Science and Stuyvesant because the under-qualified minority students won’t be able to pass those tests either. It’s a bit of a vicious cycle, like bailing water from a leaking canoe with a cup. Ultimately you wind up with the CCNY scenario- a quality institution declines.
29
For progressives - so much easier to appropriate someone else's asset or achievement...
And redistribute it, in the name of equality...
Not only are the lower half of the NYC K-12 public schools some of the most below-average in the country – based on cumulative $ spent per HS graduate, graduating with at-grade proficiency in STEM and literacy...
They are also some of the most segregated...
So, Chancellor Carranza – stop messing with one of the few things that actually works in the system...
Go pretend this lower half of the schools were a separate district – and go double the graduation and at-grade proficiency...
Without spending more money, or “busing” students from this district to another one...
To me, the decline in average NYC teacher competency in the last half-century is heartbreaking...
(could still name all my best K and early grade-school teachers – because they were all the best)
But the decline in median principal efficacy and leadership verges on criminal...
Hold off for 18 months, if you want, though...
You and your boss are the best Trump re-election campaign ad in the country...
Like a 12-mile wide billboard in Times Square – running 24/7...
21
It is evident that Black students can achieve anything since multiple Black students excelled on this test.
Clearly there should not be any tests or other filters that reduces and bars the admission of Black and Brown students here.
BLM
3
It is not fair to give middle school students a test which includes material not covered in the curriculum. More affluent families pay to have their children attend special test preparation classes that cover material on the test that the children of poorer families have not been exposed to in their public school classes. How could any rational person set up a testing situation based on these circumstances? Either the test must be purged of the extraneous material or the material integrated into the middle school curriculum. How could the mayor and the school chancellor not understand this? Eliminating the test is ridiculous but either it or the curriculum must be changed and NYC deserves a school chancellor who understands this.
1
The point of these elite schools is to support students capable of doing advanced work.
There are, in fact, students in this city who are capable of passing this test with out test prep. Some kids are just extraordinarily smart. And some kids come from families who put a premium on education, and support their children in their inherent strengths. These students aren’t well served in the system. And they need to be properly addressed. They are not well addressed in many of the scenarios advanced by the DOE.
There are also less gifted students who can study and also use test prep to propel themselves forward. This is the bulk of highly intelligent children. They should be supported and encouraged. And there should be something for them, in the specialized schools, and also elsewhere.
There is ZERO amount of test prep that can help a student pass this test who has been systematically underserved by the DOE, and who hasn’t put the effort forward to work around that. Stop hating on people who put forth effort or who have natural ability. You wouldn’t talk that way about talented athletes, and you shouldn’t do that about intellectually gifted people either.
Put the focus where it belongs. The DOE needs to level up the schools which serve the VAST majority of students. Honestly, every single local regular school needs to have the same access to curricula and extracurricula that the specialized schools have. And they don’t. Let’s talk about that.
5
Dr. Scotch, this has nothing to do with affluence as the majority of Stuyvesant students qualify for free & reduced price meals. How would you reduce the exam topics to those covered in the middle school curriculum? In math students progress through the courses at different times. An 8th grade student could be taking Pre-algebra, Algebra or Geometry. One thing is certain, talented students should have access to advanced courses wherever they are enrolled. That starts with gifted programs in every neighborhood with seats for every qualified student and continues with accelerated honors courses in core subjects in every middle school. The SHSAT should absolutely be given to every student during the school day.
4
Shapiro blames everyone and everything -- even de Blasio -- except for the bill itself, which is so defective it enjoyed little Black and Hispanic grassroots support while provoking widespread Asian anger.
17
This is how Asians become Republicans. What did you say about Republicans being "a dying party"..?
23
And Latinos and Jamaicans.
2
[[Mr. de Blasio argued that the only way to increase the number of black and Hispanic students in the schools is to eliminate the exam.]]
That is an incredibly racist position to take and I think deBlasio is a pandering idiot.
Study harder, try harder, work harder, plan better.
How is it possible that year after year parents can not be aware of these tests? Seven of the last 11 chancellors were either black or latino. What's the excuse for the lack of a system that introduces students to and prepares them for the tests?
Lastly, beware of "friends" who tell you that you can't hack it in the real world and everything needs to be geared down to your abilities.
Do you want restaurants graded for cleanliness or do you want to eliminate inspections so that everyone has a "fair" chance to run a restaurant?
Competition is a good thing. Wrap your brain around that reality.
44
Carranza's anti-Asian racism is now laid bare for all to see, Carranza must go.
38
@Amy I would sign an online petition demanding Carranza's removal.
8
It’s like the fire went out under the melting pot and everything solidified back into their own separate layers.
5
That's the answer then: fire.
1
We don't demand that sports teams reflect the racial mix of the population, and I think merit-based selection is more important in academics than it is in sports.
23
If that doesn’t spell out De Blasio’s tenure as mayor, I don’t know what does. A headline with a half baked attempt at the last minute.
Why doesn’t he focus on making something under his management efficient, rather than treating our tax money as free.
15
Where do the 900 or so kids from Stuy, who do NOT go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or Stanford go to college? Do we have irrefutable evidence that these students do demonstrably better in college AND after than everyone else? We have evidence that they do not...
A substantial number of them matriculate to the same college as their far less fortunate neighbors. And what happens then is quite interesting.
1
The underlying reasoning in support of eliminating testing—low-income students are inherently less prepared and disadvantaged than their higher income counterparts based on their lower socioeconomic status—is deeply flawed. If this were true, then why do low-income Asian students make up such a large share of these elite schools’ populations?
There may be other, more prominent issues at play: less emphasis on education in black and Hispanic communities, more single-parent households, higher crime rates, etc. Why not more emphasis on spending more time studying and less time playing sports and video games and perhaps free test prep for low-income students, as mentioned in this article? Teach students that hard work, when accompanied by an appropriate level of assistance for those in need, can take you places.
Eliminating testing is a nod to victimhood culture and a submission to the notion that the issues responsible for the current state of things are unsolvable or, worse, not worth pursuing.
32
Thanks to the NYS Legislature for understanding that lowering the standards for the one successful operation in the NYCDOE public schools, the specialized high schools, is not the answer for equality. As someone who was a NYC Teaching Fellow in two junior highs in the South Bronx, what would help is to have AP classes for the students in these failing schools who are held back by the myriad of problems that complicate the lives of their fellow classmates that are not addressed properly, causing most classes to be almost impossible to conduct because of behavioral issues.
Funding for many more counselors and support staff to deal with emotional health issues will help the entire school system more than allowing the top students in failing schools to be accepted into the specialized high schools where they will not be able to possibly keep up with students who are scoring perfectly in English and Math. Carranza & De Blasio are not addressing the real problems in the DOE - the hundreds of underfunded & mismanaged junior highs and elementary schools that unless you are working in, will have no idea how really shameful these schools are.
20
Please stop trying to manipulate our emotions by referring to segregated schools. The term “Segregation” is commonly understood to mean the forcible separation of races mandated by law. An unintended disparity among test scores does not qualify.
63
NYC should just offer free test prep and testing to every interested middle schooler at their current school. My high schooler attends a Title I school and every kid is offered free PSAT and SAT prep and every single student takes the PSATs freshman and sophomore year and the SATS their junior year. This happens during the regular school day, so there is no responsibility on part of the families to remember to register or when/where to show up. The city can absolutely find the funding to do this, as DeBlasio was able to blow millions on his failed education initiatives to date!
14
The rhetoric deployed by race based activists in this debate is so fatuous. The mayor, however misguided, attempts to do something about the FACT of segregation in these elite schools; an Asian activist says the mayor is instigating “racial divisions.” Thus according to this absurd formulation, it’s not the actual racial segregation that is divisive; it’s the Mayor who tries to do something about it. On the other hand, Mary Alice Miller claims it’s “ racial coding” to point out the FACT that this particular plan would lower academic admission standards. Not sure how the debate will ever move forward given this disingenuous posturing.
3
The specialized schools entrance exam debate is so heated because it is emblematic of the policy difference between traditional Democrats and the new regressive Left. One group believes in equality of opportunity; the other group insists on equality of outcomes. The far Left has no compunctions about moving the goalposts to achieve racial parity. Their reasoning starts with a conclusion and works backward to adjust the facts (in this case a merit-based test available to all). Ironically, if De Blasio succeeded the victory for blacks and Hispanics would soon become a Pyhrric one as a Bronx Science diploma would become worthless as standards would inevitably decline. The only things truly worthwhile in life are those we actually earn.
22
There isn't something magic in the water in "good" schools.
It's the parents.
20
@Mmm
Actually, it's the students and their hard work.
10
Family culture ... some kids read books others don't.
25
Here in lies the problem: those protesting are billionaire's, parents and activists. Probably not a teacher in the bunch. Why would anyone ask the teachers? Trace the inequality people - it isn't ancient history. Once again Bloomberg didn't consider regular low income people when he upped the testing requirements.
People of color are not less intelligent no matter how much you tell yourself they are but a hundred years of Jim Crow and continued racism can break anyone's back.
The City can offer free prep schools to all black and Hispanic students who are interested.
10
As a teacher, I have seen this type of exam for years. The students who do well are those who work hard in school and whose parents are right there supporting them, making sure they put their education first. Hispanic and black students who put their education before football, basketball, hiphop, etc., and who have parents are encouraging them to do their best in math, science, language arts , are students who show up for extra help. These are the ones who do well on the admission exams for these schools. Just because a student and the parents think they should be admitted to one of these schools does not mean they are qualified to do so. Keep the exams. Otherwise these schools will be like all other schools in town - will admit any student who shows up at the door.
36
@vivian
As a teacher who once tried to teach in a NYC school, I'm with you on this. Imagine: not one of my 130-plus students in one Brooklyn middle school knew where the nearest public library was. And didn't care.
11
Why not allot some spots to top performers in middle schools and allot the other spots by exam? Then everyone has a chance.
1
@Vanyali
Unfortunately, not all middle schools are the same. Whatever their grades, if the kids were inadequately prepared, they will have a very hard time keeping up with the accelerated program offered in specialized schools.
9
No chance publicizing these "specialized schools" will work. The problem is NYC schools are themselves segregated and the lip service paid to this problem by the white, elite, and liberal NIMBY crowd. For example, one of the best school districts is on the UES and when it was suggested that potentially kids get bussed to "more diverse districts" the uproar by the mostly white, elite, and liberal neighborhood. Without addressing the segregation in primary school, advertising the existence "specialized schools," will not do much to diversify these schools.
3
... for the sake of. Why hold back high achievers even if it helps low achievers a little. If your smart and are an achiever, no one should hold you back. This make everyone ewual and the same argument smacks of someone used to losing
5
The Mayors policy and approach - via reservations for Black and Hispanic students - is the easy political way out of a challenging issue. The reality is that there is no intellectual gap between Black, Hispanic or Asian students - there is an opportunity and effort gap. If Black and Hispanic students had access to good middle schools, knowledge and preparation for the test, as well as mentor-ship from parents and teachers to make the effort to succeed at the test - their representation would be just as high as Asian students. The Asian students are hardly richer or more gifted - but they have parents who encourage them to work hard to succeed at the tests. Most come from first generation immigrant families where the parents may not speak fluent English - yet their commitment and hard work helps them succeed. One quick point to note as the Times has pointed out earlier is that the population of Asians has risen dramatically in New York since the 80's. Shutting out these hard working achievers is just not the right way to do things. The local community and the Mayor needs to empower Blacks and Hispanics with more coaching and better mentorship to succeed at the test.
18
https://ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/admissions-overhaul-simulating-the-outcome-under-the-mayors-plan-for-admissions-to-the-citys-specialized-high-schools-jan-2019.pdf
This is the report that everyone needs to read. This is by far the most comprehensive study / paper on this subject, and clearly explores many of the questions asked by readers on here. My biggest takeaway from the paper:
" In 2017-2018, students in poverty comprised about half
of all incoming students to specialized high schools;
that share would increase to 63 percent if the program
was fully phased in for 2017-2018."
HALF of all currently incoming students to specialized high schools are in poverty. I agree that there needs to be a better system to increase diversity in these high schools, and that 7 out of 895 is utterly unacceptable, but it should not be done at the expense of Asian-American families who pull every cent they earn to prep their kids for a better school. As JC commented, it is a shame that this bill is going for an easy political fix.
25
Good decision. The dumbing down of the US education system has been going on for 20+ years, to the detriment of all students. The expectations to improve performance at K-12 is what initiated the cheating scandal (reality) in ATL. When one doesn't perform at grade level do you a) give them an A to feel good, b) change the test so everyone does well, c) improve your curriculum and educational design, or d) engage families, even if remotely. Pick all that apply.
18
@Ma
Reminds me of one of my students in Spanish class, at the University of Kansas, who said, "If you were a good teacher, we'd all get A's." (Of course, I replied, "If you were a good student, you might have earned an A.)
5
Being admitted is one thing. But if you don't have what it takes inside you, you won't be able to understand the concepts and abstractions you are supposed to learn.
17
I really object to the use of the term "desegregate" in the context of education provided when the failure is providing appropriate education to all of the students. City College was adversely affected by "Open enrollment" as will these high schools.
As I have opined before, having been a product of the NY School system and a Stuyvesant graduate, I want to see every kind of student in these schools be it sexual orientation, genetic makeup or from outer space, but lets educate them from grade K, lets prepare them and let them all prosper. A failure by the Mayor and his educational staff should not be blamed on race, but what is new with this Mayor.
This is not a desegregation issue but an educational issue and lets us not try to excuse our failures by using the charged term "segregation".
23
DeBlasio is right, for once, but his credibility is so low that no one will help him. Eventually, this will change.
I often read that the exam quizzes kids on material they may not have already learned. Doesn't this go to the quality, or lack thereof, of middle school education? My son scored high enough on his first practice test to get into Stuyvesant. He didn't see any math concepts which were unfamiliar to him. He did well based purely on what he had already learned in school which, admittedly, was a highly regarded middle school which sends many kids to specialized high schools. We really need to up the quality of middle school for everyone in the city. And I am a strong proponent of tracking. While no system is perfect and I'm sure a few talented children are missed when kids are selected for tracking, it is better than the current system of holding back tens of thousands of talented middle schoolers in the name of equality.
15
@JC They have already altered the test. It used to have a lot of material that went beyond what students would have typically encountered in the classroom by that time. The fall 2018 test largely did not. Dumbing it down apparently did not materially impact the results.
15
I went to Stuyvesant in the '60s. I came from a silly world where we were told the admission tests were something you couldn't study for. Just practice from the book you could get from the library if someone hadn't beaten you to it. A decade ago I counseled a family whose white son was afraid to go to an elite school because he couldn't compete with the immigrants, not just Asians, but a pretty big chunk of the world. Today you have to be prepared to be in the schools. Why is there no mention of what happens when capable but ill-prepared students get in a class where 90 percent of their fellow student only want to compete for the next level? I offer no answer.
9
Although I lived in NYC for 30 years, I grew up in suburban NJ. In my public high school, as far as I know, anyone could sign up for Advanced Placement (AP) courses. I took many and, near as I can recall, aced them all, although I had no special tutoring or training and neither did anyone else. I don't remember there even being any qualifying standard.
My perspective is: why shouldn't this be available to every student in every high school in the city? why should there be this competitive system that inevitably is going to be unfair to some? Seems to me the issue is one of capacity for advanced students. Let them all take advanced classes if they are qualified. is that possible? I don't know, but it should be. But the solution is not to discriminate against one ethnic group in favor of another.
3
Exactly. A test does not discriminate. It tests knowledge and ability. Many of us would like to play for an MLB. Only a few have the talent to do so. Are we going to start taking the best players from HS and put them directly to MLB? Of course not; we administer “tests” and challenges to further whittle down the candidates.
16
@local Most NYC high schools do offer AP classes, College Now program, or IB curriculum. This is not restricted to SHSAT schools.
6
I did not grow up in New York City but in a rural community in Virginia. My life changed when I received a full scholarship, based in scholastic achievement, to an excellent private school, The Hill School.
What are we doing now for our straight A students? How can school systems funnel their zeal into productive lives? The reasons for their achievement can be unfair to those who have not had similar advantages, but their work enriches all of us.
Keep the competitive tests for admission to NYC's strongest academic high schools. To state it plainly -- no matter how complex or advanced the course content, the highest-achieving students will simply be bored among fellow students who struggle to keep up. Bored students lose their zeal to learn -- I know, I've lived it and seen it in others -- consequently, all of us are impacted by the loss of their achievements.
Honor and support our achievers.
24
So much easier to get rid of this test rather than fixing k-12 education. Such soft bigotry of low expectations. If these kids had good schools and strong families that prized education, nothing could stop these kids. The problem is not the lack of test prep. You really can’t study for this test.
26
This whole debate merely reflects the failure of the entire public school system. The answer to the specialized school situation is found in making the existing K-8 system better. Students of color have bee poorly served for decades and the emphasis on junk like white toxicity allow the Richard Carranzas of the world (is he head of the school system or merely the chief racism officer?) to keep running school systems into the ground. When the overall education system works, the specialized schools will take care of themselves.
15
I taught at Stuyvesant High School for over 25 years. I can attest to the fact, that the entrance exam, which can be taken by any NYC 8th grade student, produced a remarkable student body. The exam does not see black, brown, yellow or white. It is color blind. The mayor's own son was a graduate of Brooklyn Tech, and it is obvious to me that the mayor has made a political decision rather than an educational one.
As for this newbie default chancellor imported from Texas, via California, because the mayor's first choice from Florida turned him down, I have a message. Learn about the educational history of the Specialized High Schools before you try to make a big political splash with the PC crowd by blowing up an institution of excellence.
62
@Lucretius
I would like to mention that the students' that I taught came from, China, Japan, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Tibet, India, Pakistan, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Mexico, ... and of course, The Bronx, Brooklyn, Staten Island, Manhattan, and Queens.
One of the member's of my department even had a homeless student who lived in a box on the street when we were located in the old 15th Street Building.
So let's drop the global term "Asian." The student body was inclusive.
18
50 years ago, I was a day-to-day sub on the South Side of Chicago. I saw a few really good schools in some really tough neighborhoods. It would take willpower to do that, and it would be expensive, but it would open out opportunity.
6
It’s very offensive to hear all the racial coding: that African-Americans are not good enough, if more of us are accepted into the schools, the specialized schools will bring down their standards.”
African Americans are absolutely good enough! They aren’t being educated in middle school. That is the problem, not the test. Demand better schools. DeBlasio was going for an easy political fix. Shame.
142
@JC -- it's not that "people" are saying african-americans are not good enough: the test is. if you don't want to scrap the test (as the mayor does) then you're signing on to a long, uncertain process of improving the test-takers. in the meantime, there may not be much of a change in african-american admission to elite city schools.
19
@JC
The Asian/white/Hispanic/black ordering of academic achievement is found throughout the country, not just in New York City. No one has been able to close achievement gaps on a large scale, and there is no reason to believe that "better schools" will do so.
30
@JC. By Middle School, the die has already been cast. African-Americans aren’t being “educated” from ages zero to five. The problem is primarily cultural. What makes Bronx Science great is the quality of the students. The teachers at Science don’t win Nobel prizes; the students do.
48
I didn’t graduate from Stuy or any of the top NY schools but rather a specialized science and tech magnet school in Northern Virginia, also included in the ranks alongside Stuy and similar. We also had to take the SHSAT for entrance, in addition to recs, essays, and grades submitted for consideration. Those four years were my four most challenging to date- even harder than at the top ten university I attended and jobs I’ve had at big tech companies and quantitative hedge funds. The caliber of students is extremely high and courses are very challenging. 15-20% of the freshman class drops out and returns to their “base school” as a result of not being able to keep up- even after being top performers (top 3-5%) at their respective middle schools. The returns on this education are great, but the experience is, put bluntly, brutal. It really takes a bright student who is extremely devoted to learning to succeed at these schools.
The problem isn’t the test or admissions process- lowering the bar will only lead to more problems for these students upon joining these magnet schools. The correct fix is in fact not as simple, and will require years of patience in improving the education at lower income schools and offering better awareness of these opportunities and test prep to students at these schools, rather than a quick political stunt like this one. Politicians should be ashamed of looking for short-term corrections like this one that will clearly fail in the long run.
22
It wouldn't be an issue if the rest of the school system were decent. My wife's performance at the nearest school was poor until her parents switched her to a better school. Once away from teachers who didn't care and who made her work, she did well and went on to Bronx Sci and then Harvard. She knows it wouldn't have happened if she had been forced to stay at the local school that was simply there, because it underperformed in developing her as a young African-American girl. She was lucky to escape poor performance. That initial poor performance wasn't really hers, it was the school's, and that of a society that either generally does not care about African-American minds or affirmatively wants to hold them back by depriving them of resources that others take for granted. And...what year is this? Why can't we figure this out?
102
@Joe
that is probably true in many places. Yet lowering the entrance standards at these particular schools won't fix that problem.
What fixes that problem is a more equitable distribution of educational resources along with the family commitment we see in Asian families to ensure their kids excel in school and in future life.
That Asian Ethos is lacking in many white, black and brown families.
12
@Joe
What matters is that this student was smart enough and had enough discipline to prepare for the exam (if she had to study, as most students do) and she obviously had learned something in her lower school education. Setting down an unprepared, less motivated, or less intellectually capable student in a highly competitive academic environment just because s/he's Black or Latinx helps no one. But that is what the Mayor and Chancellor's plan would have done.
12
Having taught at BxScience, and knowing the outstanding dedication to educational excellence of many Asian students who are willing to sacrifice weekends for additional classes in English, I believe the exams for the specialized high schools are fair and colorblind. Students who prioritize future success over play in the present deserve the success the specialized high schools provide.
I had an ethnic Chinese Vietnamese student who lived in Queens but worked at a Chinese restaurant 40 hours per week, making a daily triangle between school, work, and home yet earned a 3.85 average and found time for the robotics team. He earned his spot at Carnegie-Mellon, and I was proud to laud him in a recommendation letter.
278
@DrBobDrake And what exactly are you suggesting Dr. Bob? That other students don't work hard as well?
4
@Lisa I will answer this. The simple answer is yes, most other students don't work as hard. Most kids these days won't put in those hours for school and work. They would rather play hours of video games, watch TV or YouTube videos, or hang out with their friends. I speak as a mother of one of those kids who won't work that hard and I see it in so many of my friends' kids.
94
@DrBobDrake
While the exams may be fair and colorblind, I don't think you can prove that they are valid for their purpose of identifying students who are good in science.
For example, Venki Ramakrishnan, who won the 2009 Nobel prize in chemistry for helping to understand the mechanism of the ribosome, said that in India, admission to the top universities was by entrance exam, and to score well on the exams, you had to take test prep courses. His parents, a physicist father and psychologist mother, didn't believe in test prep. So he didn't get into the specialized schools. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYVdDJ1cFrM
Test prep is a tremendous waste of time and money that could be better spent on real science. Did you ever hear a student say, "I was inspired to choose a scientific career by studying test prep?" Like Ramakrishan, they were inspired by reading Scientific American. Or Arrowsmith. Or by science fair projects. Or by chemistry explosions. Or by getting an electronic circuit to work. Or by great science teachers.
The accomplishments of Chinese students is real and impressive. Chinese teachers and co-workers taught me lessons that changed my life. I want to work with them -- not compete with them for limited slots.
I grew up with black students too. It's impossible that there are only 7 black students in New York City who are qualified for Stuyvesant. The test is wrong. It's not valid.
5
Problem is that standardized tests are used to threaten teachers and public schools in order to create a pretext for privatization. Students will get pushed through the system regardless of their scores for the most part.
3
Wonder how de Blasio's concept of increasing diversity at the expense of ability would go over if applied to medical schools?
52
Can we hear from the teachers from some of these supposedly terrible schools that blacks go to? I read all the time about the innovations and new methods to assist these students in learning, so I find it hard to believe that they are so awful.
Let's face it, most of us have never set foot in these schools so we don't know what it's like. Maybe they're not all to blame.
9
@simon, teacher at one of those schools here. Bright blacks have been systematically moved up and out of these neighborhoods since the 1960’s, leaving behind those not talented enough or too dysfunctional for higher education or higher paying jobs. Their children attend our school.
We have been trying innovations and new methods to get this population to perform academically since the 1960’s. None has worked to close the gap at all since the 1970’s. Since none produce the desired results of parity with whites, we quickly discard them and try something else. The latest one is blended learning using computers to deliver personalized instruction. It too has not worked as advertised.
The emphasis on “equity” and “rigor” means that all children must spend almost all of their day being instructed “at grade level”, regardless of their actual academic level. This means that any child who doesn’t keep up with grade level reading instruction in kdg will never get another chance at learning basic phonics “sound it out” skills, since we areforbidden to teach such “low level” concepts even in first grade. Since we are not allowed to give any grades less than a C, all children pass automatically to the next grade, regardless of readiness. There is practically no chance to catch up in the primary grades unless you can pay for an outside tutor. By third grade its too late.
88
@simon
Having taught both in the inner city and wealthy bedroom communities, I believe it is not the teachers that are at fault. Class sizes in many of these inner city schools are much larger than those in the bedroom communities. They are always looking for the quick fix. Smaller class size may not be the end all solution, but it would help.
6
@simon
I worked many years in so-called "inner city" schools. In the early days, teachers were permitted to use whatever tried and true methods worked for them to bring all their students along - at their own speed. There were various tracks at the high school level - not all children should go to college. But, at some point, money got involved in public education, and teachers were told what they could teach. The tried and true methods were forbidden, and all students were pushed along. Naturally, the gifted and average students survived it, while those with major challenges did not. Childhood should not be a "race to the top", and "no child left behind" is a cruel joke for many children.
5
Standardized tests might not be the perfect way to gauge the fitness of a student for entrance into an elite school HOWEVER until there is a better MERIT BASED WAY to judge a student's academic qualifications for admittance, they should remain. Entrance into elite schools should NOT be determined by racial quotas. I understand that underprivileged areas of the city automatically put some students at a disadvantage for getting an education equal to more prosperous areas but this situation is universal in this country. We do not have equitable funding for ALL schools regardless of the incomes of the families in a particular district and I have never understood this. Using property taxes, for example, as a way to fund schools rather than through general taxation is inherently unfair and unequal. THAT is the crux of the problem with public schools in this state. Doing away with entrance exams which favor the SMARTEST is, for now, the only way to guarantee the academic integrity of the elite schools. I haven't heard one peep out of Albany looking at ways to increase funding in poorer districts which would or should at some point translate to those students receiving better educations, grades and results on standardized tests.
18
@ManhattanWilliam there are many ways to measure potential. Content-based tests—like the old SAT, which was largely a vocabulary test on the Verbal side—can predict first-year success, but for persistence and graduation you need to measure potential. There are many ways to do this, including certain tests. I’ve worked with low-income/first generation/disabled college students for over 25 years, and I can say with objective (numbers-based) certainty that, with the proper support, motivated students with low skills can succeed. Standardized tests should be used as advising tools, not gatekeepers.
1
@ManhattanWilliam I meant to say "MAINTAINING entrance exams which favor the SMARTEST", not "DOING WAY WITH..."
2
I find it quite puzzling that those who have and continue to experience different forms of marginalization and prejudice would fight tooth and nail to conserve public education policies or practices that are by definition prejudicial and elitist..
1
@Mia, I suspect the reason for this "puzzling" behavior is that these students succeeded in spite of whatever marginalization they experienced. They were the top 3-5% and had what it took to succeed. They worked incredibly hard and persisted despite the odds.
This is an uninformed guess, but I'd go out on a limb and venture there is absolutely no one at the SHS - of any color - who doesn't have an incredible work ethic in addition to exceptional capacity.
8
@Mia
Agreed, but then the issue would be fixing the entire prejudicial and elitist NYC public school system, where kids in affluent districts get a much superior education than their counterparts in who live in poor districts. Failing to provide an equal, sufficient education for students of all backgrounds and then offering to waive the entrance exam as some sort of mea culpa is ridiculous and solves nothing.
1
That is, of course, incontestable and quite accurate. And I suspect the underlying logic for removing entrance exams for these select public schools is precisely that (or at least a small step in that direction). Systemic/structural factors are what perpetuate inequalities and cause (and HAVE caused) intergenerational poverty and marginalization for minority and less advantaged groups. So it is hard to imagine them being resolved or at least appreciably reduced in any other way than removing barriers one at a time, through policies like this.
Anyway, just a thought
According to analysis done by the DOE, the specialized high school test does not predict success at Stuyvesant High School to the extent that grades and other test scores do. Although I can't verify the accuracy of their analysis (their methods and approaches need to be made public), if correct, this is HUGE. The goal in admissions (to any school) is to choose the individuals that will be the most successful at that school.
The problem is that the changes to this exam are clearly being motivated for racial reasons and not the reasons stated above, with a Chancellor who refuses to apologize for Anti-Asian remarks.
7
The problem is not the test itself--it's in the differential preparation for the test.
The Department of Education does offer SHSAT preparation classes. They, quite bluntly, are terrible, only dealing with academic content, not test strategy and technique, which, for all those of us familiar with test preparation--full disclosure, I have helped develop the SHSAT curriculum for two private test prep companies over the course of my test preparation career--is the way to get scores high enough to gain admission to these schools. Pure academic concept review just does not cut it.
The one big advantage the Asian community has had is that it is knowledgeable and networked into the private test prep community, and sacrifices to send students to those courses and tutors with better ways, and proven track records, of getting students into the schools. Often this is done on a sliding scale, although it still is more costly than the prep The Department of Ed provides. But it is also much better. And it is not something that other groups could not also take advantage of and sacrifice for; there's no big economic difference between the communities that use these courses and tutors and those that have not, though there's probably a knowledge gap in knowing of them.
Because I have some connections to the Colombian expatriate community, I work with a number of those students, and they generally gain admittance. It can be done with the right prep.
17
Parents need to work with their kids at school work when the kids are coming up. Supervise homework. Make sure papers get written and handed in timely.
That said there are a lot of inadequate parents out there who have many kids from different fathers and who do not speak English correctly. In those communities extend the school day to 6 or 7 pm and keep the kids away from their harmful parents as much as possible. To accomplish this hire a second shift of teachers.
Mrs DiBlasio just blew almost a $1 billion dollars which was entrusted to her to improve the education system and, as they admit, achieved no results. Let's try this, keeping the kids in depressed neighborhoods in school all day under the auspices of two shifts of teachers.
25
A "racially neutral" test will end up being racist and encouraging racial segregation unless it takes into account our country's multi-generational legacy of racist economic policies. Talking about differences between "cultures" or "people" only increases the ignorance of whites and Asians and prolongs the bitter pain of blacks who have suffered enough. Why can't we accept that this test is unfair to those who are economically disadvantaged, and promote fairer, more inclusive, policies? Everyone benefits when there is less segregation - whether of class, color, religion, culture or race.
4
@Douglas Zeiger
You are correct. The test is inherently unfair.
It is unfair to anyone who does not work hard in school. It is unfair to anyone who does not study. It is unfair to anyone who does not take practice exams. It is unfair to anyone who’s parents do not keep them home studying and pushing them to do better. It is unfair to any group where education is not foremost in importance. It is unfair to any group where single parenting is the norm.
Correct these and unfairness will disappear.
69
@Douglas Zeiger Curious that the story didn't address the attendance records of students. In most communities, Black and Hispanic students don't want to attend school and don't intend to participate even if they are forced to be there. Saying that everyone benefits when there is less segregation is a nonsense statement.
32
@Douglas Zeiger
This is classic double talk.
The Asians are the poorest ethnic group in New York City. Your plan would hurt them not help them.
20
If you think this out, what you will see is that the elite public high schools would become white again. But I'm sure Mr. deBlasio didn't think it our because he is only after headlines.
Here's why these schools would become white again: Parents would send their children to a public middle school (instead of a private school) so that their child can graduate at the top of the class. Remember that private NYC schools are now about $50,000 per year. It makes perfect sense to do this. You send your kids to a public middle school; maybe you send him to private grammar school. You pay for tutoring on the side (it's worth it). Your kid goes, perhaps, to a lesser middle school--but it's worth it for a shot at Stuyvesant. And then your kid gets a free high school education at one of the best high schools in the country.
13
50k private schools are no guarantee either. Speaking from my own children’s experience. Money doesn’t buy motivation or brains
13
@Tiger shark
Ain't it the truth. I saw that on multiple college tours this spring. Anecdote: My daughter rejected a school we visited together on an "accepted students" day purely on student behavior a class she was scheduled to take, if I recall correctly, data visualization. She said few kids were paying attention, many were on their phones. No one asked questions, and she felt embarrassed for the professor. What a shame.
4
As a graduate of one of the specialized high schools and a product of the special education track for gifted students since the 3rd grade, I cannot sufficiently express my gratitude for the opportunities that were provided to me by the New York City school system. I am deeply appreciative of having the opportunity to be in a classroom that was serious about learning and meeting me where I was, rather than force me to sit in a classroom that would not challenge and stimulate me.
I was saddened by a news item some years back that reported the closing of the elementary school program from which I benefited because the eligibility standards and patterns of enrollment provided to few Black families. The problems of using tests to determine eligibility are well documented and individual outcomes are affected by social and cultural aspects. That is not the excuse to eliminate them. It is the reason to address the underlying issues. Ending selection based on achievement and tested aptitude does not do anything productive and is actually destructive. Stunting the growth of some trees does not make the other trees better or healthier.
We need to address the underlying cultural, economic and political problems that contribute to poor educational outcomes for minorities with solutions that might actually raise people up, rather than reducing the opportunity of others.
247
@Zinkler I agree with most of what you said, but the article said the alternative would be to offer admission to top performers in all public schools, not to eliminate achievement-based admission entirely. The article said some students haven't even heard of it, implying that the test was not be pushed equitably across all schools, leaving underserved people in the dust.
3
@Sara The lack of awareness speaks to how poorly the City and the State support NYC public schools. The adults in the school building responsible for making students aware of the SHSAT are not doing their job. Or, it's the job of someone like a guidance counselor or social worker who funding allows to be on-site once a month (or some other ridiculously inadequate schedule).
It's another example of the poor job NYC and NY State are doing of supporting our kids and their education - and another example of what needs to be fixed. That fix is not headline grabbing and not quick. It's a long hard process that requires funding, keeping politics out and maintaining focus on educating all children in all neighborhoods from all kinds of families.
3
@Sara
the problem with offering the "top" performers in every school the slot, is that performance at various schools is unequal.
A really smart kid in a really bad school might compete. But an average kid in a really bad school looks like a scholar IN THAT SCHOOL but does not get the foundational learning those at "better" schools get.
it is mixing apples and oranges and expecting to get potato salad.
The solution is to provide more equitable foundational education and for white, black and brown families to focus on education instead of sports, hanging out and being popular.
11
I graduated from Brooklyn Tech many years ago. I only knew about the school because a neighbor that I respected went there. I bought the Barron’s test prep book and did the sample exams. I think Ron Lauder’s plan makes sense - publicize the schools - make parents and students aware of the schools, make test prep classes available - fund more G & T programs - and that way all kids will have a fair shot. De Blasio; do the hard work of improving NYC’s elementary and middle schools
301
Yes, sure, publicize the schools, but in the end, HOW CAN ANYONE IN NYC CLAIM TO NOT KNOW ABOUT STUYVESANT? Only those who have zero interest in education would somehow fail to hear about the specialized high schools in NYC, and folks who have so little interest in improving themselves just don’t deserve to have spots opened for them in these elite schools.
152
@Jeff The Dept. of Ed. has offered minority middle school students specialized high school test prep for at least 15 years. Already implemented. And if you believe that it's because of "poor schools", then why are there no minority students from Harlem Children's Zone or Eva Moskowitz's Success Academy Charter schools? The devastating impact of poverty on learning is real, and not "cured" by Head Start or Success Academy.
12
Agree that you can self prepare - like you, it prepared me for grad school exam. I had the drive. Disagree that “improving schools” is anything but a platitude. The challenge is the student not the schools - finding the few self motivated kids and showing how to prepare for tests would help a few - and I don’t think more than a few is a realistic goal
20
The elite schools are for truly exceptional students.
Fact: There are very few truly academically exceptional students, we're looking at the top 1-3%, the tail end of the distribution curve. My own white, affluent, 90th+ percentile children with many advantages from birth (including highly academically inclined parents) almost certainly would not have made the cut off at Stuy (and if they did, likely would not have thrived for a variety of reasons).
If my theory is correct (and common sense dictates it is), at least 90% of the city's children don't have a chance at entrance to the elite schools. Period. There may be a small number where test prep can move the numbers, those kids will be in (or close to) the top decile anyway.
We all want desperately to believe that all kids are above average (or in this case, WAY above average), but unless you live in Lake Woebegone, simple distribution function tells us this is impossible.
While improving K-5 and 6-8th wouldn't change the numbers at the SHS in a statistically meaningful way, it would almost certainly improve the life outcomes of the children who attend. So count me in on the argument to improve all schools beginning in K, urgently, without squandering precious political capital on the SHS. These children's lives are at stake.
59
Excellent, reasoned post. These ARE elite schools and exclusive by definition and goal. One doesn’t need elite schools to succeed in life - as if it were so simple. Drive, intellect, parental/peer example are all factors, too.
22
Back in 1970, I took the specialized high school test, and passed for admission to Bronx Science.
My parents, God bless them, were very blunt — they said, “You’ll be the dumbest kid at Science, but you’ll be the smartest kid at DeWitt Clinton. So go to Clinton, rise to the top, and get into the college of your choice.”
And that’s what I did.
P.S. Clinton had many wonderfully dedicated teachers. The student body....well, let’s just say that’s where I got my street smarts.
25
@David G. Great insight! I like to say that I could join Mensa............but I'm smart enough to know that then I'd be the dumbest guy in the room!
1
De Blasio needs to go. How did his son Dante de Blasio get into Yale is a big question. These quota system is totally inappropriate in these days. We should strengthen the city's basic education of primary and middle school, and leave the elite schools for the highest achievers based on their academic merits only.
33
I don't know much about this bill. What I do know is that high stakes tests aren't reliable assessments of intelligence, learning, or what one knows. I suppose it's possible that these tests could show whether education is important to a particular family or student, as many here claim. But without question they're an acurate marker in idenitying which families and students have the necessary resources to "study to the test," as that's what most high stakes tests assess. I also suppose in many places class has more to do with that than race. But New York City isn't like most places, right New Yorkers?
3
The fix is so OBVIOUS - Raise the quality of education at the elementary and middle school levels, in all neighborhoods and for all demographics. Then let the students compete on a level playing field for coveted spots in more elite institutions.
29
Years ago, I took the SHSAT and failed. My parents didn’t have the money to pay for test prep classes (and even if they had the money, culturally they wouldn’t have understood why they should) and quite honestly I didn’t do anything to prepare myself. (The test prep books were in my middle school library and in the public libraries, but I didn’t use them). I was disappointed when I didn’t make the cutoff for Stuyvesant, but it never occurred to me in a million years that I should blame anyone other than myself for my failure. Certainly, I would never have blamed the kids who spent all their time studying for the exam. Instead, I learned a valuable lesson — if I wanted something, I couldn’t take for granted I would get it, I had to be prepared. Yet seems to be the opposite of what the Mayor and Chancellor are teaching kids today.
110
@Nobody You could not get in to Stuyvesant because you did not study and were not up to that academic level. This is quite distinct from those cases where, as the Mayor solemnly intoned, a mother looks into her black/latino child's precious eyes, and has to tell them they have no chance of getting in. Big difference.
1
Why? How? Are they preparing for the exam? Are they doing well in school? What would make a parent tell her child that?
And BTW, I didn’t mention that I graduated at the top of my middle school (so, ironically, I would have gotten in under the system the mayor proposed). I just decided that I was smart enough to pass the test without studying, and learned I was wrong.
21
@Edwin
No difference. A Black or Latinx student who has had an adequate education in K-8 and studies absolutely has a chance. I was one of them. There were many more in the past. The lower school system is failing students.
6
I'm a Hispanic graduate of Bronx Science. I was lucky; I was raised in District 2 in Manhattan, not because my parents were well-off, but because my father was a building super. I had the advantage of a good public elementary school, and a junior high school with a "special progress" (i.e. gifted) program. I now live in District 11 in the Bronx. My son attends our zoned elementary school. He's only in Kindergarten and has had great teachers this year, but I do not look forward to middle school. The neighborhood schools leave a lot to be desired. The problem to be fixed is the quality of elementary and middle school education. This should be the focus, not political grand-standing that would throw a ban-aid on the larger problem, and make the quality of the education offered at specialized schools suffer.
69
In the 60s it was routine to hear that standardized tests were the kind "you can't study for." And we believed it. Very few of us took courses, studied. We just showed up.
When I took the LSAT and GREs I was told just don't get drunk the night before and get a good nights' sleep.
Now we know these were lies. So what happens? Kids whose parents can afford tutors and courses do better than those whose parents can't. And kids who go to the worse middle schools can't learn enough of what's on the test.
As between kids whose parents buy them test prep the test is fair.
How can the test be made fair for the rest?
4
@Paul’52 The test can't be made fair for the rest. They should be doing what was done when I got into Bronx Science in the late 60s. I got in via the test, but two other students from my South Bronx junior high school made it in on general merit even though they just missed on the test. If I remember correctly, the policy was something like every junior high got two such passes for top students who didn't quite make the test cutoff. Know what? Once those students were in, they did at least as well as any of the others.
Something like that is how you correct a little for students that deserve the chance but can't afford tutoring for the test, and didn't get a break on the quality of their schools. Maybe also provide city-funded tutoring for those who can't afford it and are among the best students. It's not that difficult to determine who would qualify.
Unless we're ready to admit that this government is just an oligarchy in democracy's clothing...
@Paul’52: I was absolutely told this in the early 70s.
Nobody in my family had ever attended college before, so I had nobody to ask or give me advice.
The guidance counselor at school said "you cannot study for the SAT". They did say, funnily enough, to get a goods night sleep and bring sharpened pencils!!! LOL!
I took the test "blind" like that. I did fair, but a mediocre score that would not get me into any top flight school nor any scholarships.
Only years AFTERWARDS…did I learn I could have taken the PSAT for practice…..STUDY GUIDES! who knew? …. and prep classes. Also, my savvy friends took the test OVER for a better score!
They got into great colleges with scholarships.
I got bupkis.
Because I BELIEVED MY TEACHERS AND GUIDANCE COUNSELORS.
Tough one. Testing does not tell the whole story, but neither does not testing. I’d personally rather leave my and my kids’ fate in the hands of the test than the Politburo.
29
de Blasio is a complete embarrassment, pure and simple, and delusional to top it off. Why NY-ers keep voting him in is beyond me. They probably deserve him, in the end.
35
@ss We only voted him in twice, and the second time it wasn't by a huge margin. Believe me, most of us see him as a gigantic disappointment, and we're counting the days until he's gone.
What shocks me most is that he genuinely seems to think that people would vote for him in a Presidential election. He wouldn't even win a majority of votes in the city where he is Mayor, and somehow thinks he could win a national majority? The dude is delusional.
17
Dumbing down admission standards by eliminating the hoops qualified applicants have yo jump through is not a solution to low admissions for minorities. Free intensive test pep for interested students is the way to go.
17
@heyomania Sorry, not according to NYTimes op ed contributor Damon Hewitt. Such measures "have been proven ineffective by the latest admissions numbers but also insult the intelligence and dignity of black and Latino students." "The Truth About New York City’s Elite High Schools" By Damon Hewitt March 22, 2017
2
Tracking has always been a component of education AND it's going to be a part of your life for a long time.
My Bensonhurst Brooklyn junior high school ('70-73 for me) was integrated owing to forced busing & internally segregated thanks to tracking that groups like-achieving students together so they can progress as a unit.
There were 3 grades (7,8,9) 16 classes per grade. The top 4 in each grade were "special progress enrichment" or SPE. Of those, the top two skipped the 8th grade. The middle grades were standard progress. Mostly white & more black students as the classes lowered in ability. The bottom grades were remedial & mostly black.
I was in one of the 3-yr SPE classes, all white save for two immigrant Chinese students & one black son of a UN worker who was on assignment to the US from Africa.
I transferred from a parochial school early in the 7th grade & was initially placed in the very middle of the standard achieving classes; half white & black.
We were learning how to read & write numbers with commas & the 3 states of matter; things I knew since the 2d grade. Thanks to those teachers that bumped me up.
After that I went to John Dewey. It's 8-hour school day self-filtered bullies & low achievers without an entry exam, great!
You're tracked into college, your job, the military. Simply placing kids where they may not belong won't help anyone.
Help those students with longer school days & school years.
16
If this picture is indicative of who is pro and who is con the image suggests African Americans and Hispanics might possibly be in favor getting rid of the tests .
After all African Americans forced to go to segregated and sub-substandard schools once it was no longer a crime for them to read actually need and deserve the help of getting rid of a test they are not prepared to pass through no fault of their own . On the other hand kids who can do better with the math and and sciences deserve an environment that facilitates that as well .
So, the slogan " keep politics out of education " is misleading and erroneous for it's politics that generates the oppression that has prevented African Americans from educational achievement at least at the level of White Americans in the first place .
So, if going to Brooklyn Tech gives one an advantage to get into Harvard it would be criminal to do anything to lessen the schools strength , but it's no less criminal to ignore the reason the sons and daughters of slaves who half built our new Country , poor whites , and Hispanics are less represented in these schools either .
American culture may never equal the " study hard or bring shame to the family culture " of other cultures , but NY and our Country needs to improve the educations from the least elite schools not harm that provided by the best ones .
3
I'd like to think that who gets into Stuyvesant comes down mostly to who wants it. Individually, by neighborhood (and thus by zoned middle school), and by ethnic group. Right now, it's the Asians first; one minority out-striving the others by a wide margin.
DeBlasio's plan was simplistic and was a too-easy quick fix that didn't solve anything. The proper solution, much more difficult to achieve, is figuring out how to motivate kids, families, even whole neighborhoods and ethnic groups, to make studiousness a point of pride rather than something to make fun of, to make real achievement a serious and attainable goal from early childhood on, and to make people stop finger-pointing to blame others for the situation they are in.
Stop blaming the schools because they can only work with what they got. As a former teacher, I always said, you want great blueberry pie, don't give me rotten blueberries. Schools are bending over backwards to give kids opportunities; my last school created AP classes and filled them with half the juniors and seniors; maybe three or four kids in every class had any shot at all at passing the exam. The results were never made public; obviously, if kids had passed those exams, we sure would have heard about it.
Notice that I never said that these students lack the innate ability to succeed. But many of them do lack the very concept of how much effort it takes to succeed scholastically at the highest levels.
53
Most of us would ideally like to see everyone succeed at the highest levels, and to have a world free of all injustice and inequality.
But people have different minds and hearts, and different character traits.
It is self evident to any reasonable person who's been around a few decades that there are differences in ability, self-discipline and self-effort, and sometimes there should be a reward for that. Like these exceptional schools for exceptional students.
Yes, the standards are high and they shouldn't be lowered to engineer an outcome.
But when you throw common sense, reason and logic out the window, it's easy to become a good hearted fool.
Lowering standards will hurt most everyone in the end. Do all we reasonably can to encourage students that aspire to these schools to get extra help and mentoring when possible, to supplement their own significant effort to learn and qualify.
And yes, some family situations may not be supportive or conducive, but that is not a reason to lower standards. Help such families as best we can afford to, that's all we can do if we don't want to make attending these special schools largely meaningless at some point.
Discipline and self effort should be the biggest factor. Tell kids that; often that's about all you can do.
27
High stakes tests is not a productive way to sort people (we are not apples). Even admissions committees for Ph.D. work in physics realize that GREs are not accurate predictors, AND that women and minorities statistically do less well. The solution is to improve all public schools, but for the present, students from less affluent homes & schools should not be further penalized by unfair entrance criteria.
4
“... for non-U.S. citizens, men had a higher mean score on the Quantitative Reasoning measure and women had higher mean scores on the Verbal Reasoning and Analytical Writing measures. For U.S. citizens, men had higher mean scores than woman on all three measures of the GRE General Test.” (period under discussion: July 2016 - June 2017)
“... for both men and women, test takers who classified themselves as Asian, on average, obtained a higher Quantitative Reasoning score than any other racial/ethnic group. Test takers who classified themselves as White (non-Hispanic), on average, obtained higher Verbal Reasoning scores than other racial/ ethnic groups. Test takers who classified themselves as White (non-Hispanic), Asian or Other scored higher on the Analytical Writing measure than other racial/ethnic groups.” (period under discussion: July 2016 - June 2017)
Source: “A Snapshot of the Individuals Who Took the GRE® General Test” (https://www.ets.org/s/gre/pdf/snapshot_test_taker_data_2017.pdf)
Recent results of the GRE are not as simple as a flat out, “women and minorities statistically do less well.”
2
Why aren't we asking why there aren't more of these high quality schools in NY and elsewhere?
15
The current trend in social engineering in the US is to apply still more racial double standards in the effort to end racial disparity in academics, economics and the workplace. This is the wrong approach. We need to level the playing field and eliminate race as a factor for many reasons: increasing self-esteem, preventing resentment, increasing motivation and, in general, producing more qualified workers.
Racial double standards prevent this progress in the long run. It's the easy, temporary fix for racial disparities.
20
Finally something good comes out of New York after the string of horrific legislation that we’ve just seen.
35
Well it’s a fact that Asians are historically under represented on the elite varsity basketball teams in the City. According to De Blasio maybe we should mandate that they keep a number of roster spots open for them. Never mind that would keep off athletes that have worked hard for those spots and are trying to get to college off the team, all is fair in the name of “equality” right?
68
By turning this into an affirmative action high school everyone loses except de blasio, and only in the next election. He will not be remembered fondly by anyone. This “policy” turns every racial group against every other by abolishing the merit which made such schooling exemplary - its color blindness
51
“Some black and Hispanic students have said they did not even know the exam existed” - so DeBlasio is incapable of fixing even this problem?
38
@LiberalNotLemming For real. That's what was so ridiculous about this proposal. The city can create testing centers, and tutoring centers. The city can offer subsidized test preparation, and other resources to help students succeed, WITHOUT telling them that they don't even have to take the rest at all. DeBlaz just wanted something easy and simple, rather than an actual complex answer to an actual complex problem.
12
I am amazed the editor quote students spouting blatant falsehoods "Some black and Hispanic students have said they did not even know the exam existed or could not afford preparation for the test". ANY interest student can use FREE test prep services! And Mr. Lauder offers to pay for expanding and publicizing that tutoring. What is needed is more encouragement from teachers and parents! Perhaps if union seniority rules were bent to allow the best, most experienced teachers to be assigned to the worst performing schools, their students might get the opportunity to attend the elite schools.
27
I have quite a few friends who have gone to the schools; some are white; some are African-American, and some are Hispanic. They are against changing the entrance requirements.
So am I, and I am Hispanic. If African-American and Hispanic students are not able to pass this exam, then let’s prepare them better. Let’s create better public grammar schools and middle schools for these kids. Let’s create prep programs for them so they can do well on these tests.
By the way, Mr. deBlasio’s proposed entrance requirement is not the answer. Let’s say that you automatically accept the top 10% of every NYC middle school. If a particular middle school has poor academic results (and there are many schools like this) their top 10% will reflect that. They will be poorly prepared. How is that possibly good for anyone? Let’s create schools and prep programs so they can do well on the test.
147
@Honeybee
I knew that Texas had this system. I wondered how it was working out. Those who put together this system meant well, but it doesn't always work the way they meant. By the way, I suspect that in NYC what would end up happening is that the elite public exam schools would become white again because parents would figure out a way to send their kids to the NYC middle schools as a way to obtain entry into these high schools. Note that NYC private schools cost over $50,000 a year. This would be a way to get your kid into Stuyvesant and Bronx Science and save $200,000+. Think about it--that's what would happen.
11
@NYC Independent
I'm an African American who was accepted to Stuyvesant. I also do not believe that the entrance requirements should be changed and I've repeatedly made the same arguments you have. I have often felt that our views have not been adequately represented.
10
@Bar tennant
Diversity is important. Graduates will go out into the world and have to interact with many different kinds of people. It's how it's obtained that is the problem. The Mayor and Chancellor's plan was poorly thought out and frankly, racist against Asians.
Some public interest groups rattled their sabers but it might have been very difficult to win a lawsuit to drop the SHSAT with the remarks the Chancellor made about Asians in the record.
3
I don’t understand why Mr. Lauder’s plan failed. It seems like an excellent plan- more gifted programs and free test prep.
25
Any meddling with an educational system by administration usually results in mediocre results for students as well as divide communities. It is no secret that first generation Asians try very hard to give their kids the educational advantage by sacrificing so much of their personal pleasures that other cultures cherish. Penalizing that makes no sense.
The fault lies in how we define success. The city has so many high schools other than the 3 entrance test-based schools that are great schools and uses a whole list of criteria to select students. Focus on these schools, try to mix races in some of the schools (without making political news) and experiment as to what works the best for improving performance. Try to get the educational experts involved and give them a free hand to try based on research rather than pushing a solution through lawmakers.
17
the students being penalized are the hard working, high performing students at the top of their class in middle schools across the city. they are being denied opportunities based on the idea that high stakes testing reflects ability and achievement. this model stamps out inquiry, creativity and well-rounded educational approaches that include arts, sports, health, leadership, citizenship in favor of relentless, anxiety producing test prep. who profits? not the children, not the community. it's disgusting that billionaires get to hijack this process.
1
@ehr- the top students in one middle school may vary vastly in ability from the top students in another. If they can’t pass the test, what makes you think they can exceed in such a demanding environment?
38
@ehr
"this model stamps out inquiry, creativity and well-rounded educational approaches that include arts, sports, health, leadership, citizenship"
So then the city should open specialized schools, one each for arts, sports, citizenship, health, etc. Leave the brains alone at their own schools.
11
I worked as a teacher and psychologist in the NYC public schools for 35 years, primarily with students from impoverished backgrounds. Where is the discussion as to why, even though the city has offered special test prep for these schools to minority students for at least 20 years. so few make the cut-off? Blaming "poor schools" is a red herring. Do minority students from Harlem Children's Zone or Eva Moskowitz's Success Academy get into Stuyvesant? If not, why not?
31
@C
"Do minority students from Harlem Children's Zone or Eva Moskowitz's Success Academy get into Stuyvesant? If not, why not?"
Students from these scholls (as well as from predominantly white schools) don't get in because they can't real, write, or do math and science that well.
11
@C, we know the answer to that; we just can’t say it aloud for fear of losing our jobs.
13
@C My armchair answer: Given: The elite schools are for truly exceptional students. Fact: There are very few truly academically exceptional students, we're looking at the top 1-3%, the tail end of the distribution curve. My own white, affluent, 90th+ percentile children with many advantages from birth (including highly academically inclined parents) almost certainly would not have made the cut off at Stuy (and if they did, likely would not have thrived for a variety of reasons).
If my theory is correct (and common sense dictates it is), at least 90% of the city's children don't have a chance at entrance to the elite schools. Period. There may be a small number where test prep can move the numbers, but as you and I know, those kids will be in (or close to) the top decile anyway.
We all want desperately to believe that all kids are above average (or in this case, WAY above average), but unless you live in Lake Woebegone, simple distribution function tells us this is impossible.
We blame the schools for expediency, above all. That said, while improving K-5 and 6-8th wouldn't necessarily change the numbers at the SHS in a statistically meaningful way, it would almost certainly improve the life outcomes of the children who attend. So count me in on the argument to improve all schools, urgently, without wasting political capital on the SHS. These children's lives are at stake.
11
Why are we debating this and not debating CUNY’s decision to end their entrance exams which will complicate the path toward enrollment for many working adults.
6
What de blasio fails to realize is that his plan would only see the rise of one and done enrollment in bad middle schools of the children who are living in gentrifying neighborhoods that currently go to private schools.
6
"Mankind likes to think in terms of extreme opposites. It is given to formulating its belief in terms of either-or's between which it recognizes no intermediate possibilities ....", John Dewey (Educator).
There are ways to solving this problem besides just keeping or getting rid the test.
6
As an educator in the South Bronx, I cant help but feel that Bill de Blasio’s approach to this issue misses the mark. How would this help the average kid in the South Bronx? How would it address structural inequalities in the school system writ large? It seems akin to placing a band-aid on a bullet wound. I’m all for diversifying the specialized schools, but it’s important to keep in mind these schools serve a tiny fraction of NYC students. Instead of pouring all of his political capital into a somewhat niche issue, how about investing in high-need areas first!
If Mr. Mayor wants to address these issues he should get off the campaign trail and build an equitable school system from the bottom-up.
76
If there was a specialty school for brain surgeons, would you want entry to be based only on merit — or based on diversity criteria?
81
At one point, Jewish kids dominated the specialized high schools. Many were the children of working class immigrants.
Now Chinese kids--many poor children of immigrants--dominate.
Are we supposed to believe that somehow a standardized test morphed from bias favoring working class Jewish kids to favoring poor Chinese kids?
272
Whatever I thought about this before, because of Lauder's interference I strongly support the Mayor's proposal and will fight to unmask the other side as a bunch of zombies doing a millionaire's bidding.
1
@Le Hey, Caban just recieved 70,000 from Soros, And 30k from the Hastings family ( Netflix ). Hold the same opinion?
8
Finally some sense from Albany. While it’s fun to watch the identity politics cause angst under the big Democratic umbrella , it is good to see that the admission test remains in place. In a great city such ours, we should have a knowledge based test to identity the truly excellent among our students. They should be able to learn in an environment with other gifted kids who will push them.
Hopefully, this forces de Blasio to abandon his narcissistic presidential run and focus on the city. He should replace that reprehensible Chancellor with someone, anyone in fact, who is far less racist and divisive then the incumbent.
60
So the epic conundrum of 'egalitarianism' vs 'merit' sheers like a calving iceberg. It's simple really- society advances by sweat and ingenuity, something that cannot be mandated by social convention. If America is to keep its edge then the best must be allowed to soar, period. That's in the best interest of the larger society. If some 'communities' are offended by this process it's not the product of education at fault, rather the way in which education in general is accessed and how the collective benefit is shared.
35
@Victor Lacca So the Loughlin girls are the best, right?
2
@Julian
Certainly not. If they had to pass a tougher test then Mommy’s money and connections would not help.
You prove the point for testing. Without it, admissions are more likely to be subject to manipulation.
9
@Julianbook I'm pretty sure an educational pathway of deceit is not implied by 'sweat and ingenuity'- but if that's how you read it my point seems lost in an effort to distinguish the very meaning of merit.
I am white, my kid is already at college, and my kid did not go to any of these schools, so I have no skin in the game : I totally support the Mayor's plan. The entrance exam is by no means a measure of merit or intelligence or anything except the extent of prepping. I am aware of prepping summer camps in Chinatown where kids prep 40 hours a week all summer long. Normally I don't like what our Mayor does, but on this issue he has it right. Shame on the preppers for claimining they are there by some kind of "merit." The Mayor's plan is a better measure of merit.
5
@Le Do you have statistics on how many kids who received admission to these schools received the prep? Why would you or anybody support a plan that effectively locks out 93% and over of the student population in NYC - THE ENTIRE cohort outside of the 7% in every school, students at private middle schools who have just as much of a right to go to these top schools.
9
@Le I totally disagree with you. You don't have to be the brightest is you are the most motivated. These kids that study to death deserve to be able to get in these places. What's stopping the African American kid from doing the same?
19
@Le imagine your kid got rejected by college only because he's not a certain race. Although he worked very hard, he still got rejected. And there's some mama out there calling him shame only because he worked harder.
15
The problem here is that BOTH sides are right: meritocracy and increased opportunities for students of color should both be honored. But surely there are new approaches that could satisfy both sides. Just look at higher ed: do Harvard and Yale base admission on a single high-stakes test? Of course not, but they still maintain very high admission standards. If colleges and universities have figured it out, maybe New York City could, too.
7
@Jonathan Feldman as you are in Rochester, you may be unaware that NYC has a substantial number of selective high schools in addition to the SHSAT schools, and those schools use a wide range of admissions rubrics. You can in fact apply to selective schools that base admissions on grades, state test scores, interviews, auditions, etc. etc. etc.
21
@Working Mama. Sounds like this could be a good solution for the schools in question, as well. (By the way, Rochester has a few selective high schools, none of which bases admission on a single test [although, like Laguardia in NYC, the performing arts high school does require an audition]).
1
Harvard and Yale do it by using a two tiered admission structure that requires very different standards: a very high standard for Asian and white students and a much lower standard for black and Hispanic students. That is a fact, and no one really pretends otherwise anymore.
59
If your kids are too dumb to pass the entrance exam don't do away with the exam, educate your kids.
104
Perhaps I'm reading too much into words, but the caption below the photo depicting a public hearing about the matter states:
"A few dozen supporters of the exam repeated their testimony at multiple hearings over the last few months."
The descriptives, "a few dozen," "repeated" and "at multiple hearings" seems to suggest a bit of editorializing on behalf of the opponents of the exam.
Although probably unintentional, still a cautionary lesson in the choice of words.
34
@Sam
The whole article is insulting to the Asians.
+ The headline says there are racial divisions but only mentions Asians. It fails to mention the Blacks and Whites who backed eliminating the test.
+ The headline also accuses "billionaire's lobbying" but fails to mention the massive funding push against the test.
43
The plan would do nothing more than punish Asian-American students in favor of less-qualified non-Asian students. Admission to prestigious schools must always be based on intellectual abilith. Otherwise what is the purpose of these institutions?
94
Why does DeBlasio want to destroy the gems of the NY Public schools? Stuy is arguably the best public high school in the U.S. It should be treasured, not trashed.
And while it's important to increase opportunities for African American and Latino students, one should never sacrifice academic quality for racial balance.
73
An important defeat for the oft clueless, rudderless, mayor of NYC, who insists on governing along racial and identity politics lines and ignores real data. And this guy is running for president?
Since de Blasio has been mayor, the city has sunk deeper and deeper into crisis. This is one more example of a disastrous administration. Perhaps if the mayor would concentrate on real issues, instead of the flavor-of-the month racial sexy issue, he would be more effective....
47
Keep politics out of education? We've already kept education to of politics. A clearly demonstrated lack of education has given us Donald Trump.
3
Ok gang, imo, let's go over it again, what history has taught us.
The three most important factors on whether students do well in school are.
1-The involvement of the parents.
2-The involvement of the parents.
3-The involvement of the parents.
Asian, Jewish parents know this and practice it more than other minority or other white parents.
The above is not meant to denigrate the great number or minority or other white parents who do get involved but many of this group will blame anything and anybody but themselves.
73
@Paul: No, whites are not the ethnic group which usually places blame for poor academic performance, or increased involvement with crime, on 'racism' or "anything but themselves". Whites and Asians are not groups which rely on victimization to make their points.
8
In Buffalo there’s an elite, merit-restricted public school called City Honors. Look it up, it’s one of the best high schools in America. The racial balance at City Honors mirrors Stuyvesant; Asians up, African Americans down. So the same demands for reduced standards are being debated. One solution (to the politics) is a proposal to open a second City Honors that would share the name but drop the admission standards. In other words, the proponents for reduced standards want the name of the elite school, but not the rigorous standards that go with it. Label shopping, in a way. There seems to be no appreciation for the long-term degradation of the name and its meaning. Or about why low-income Asians gain admission to merit-based school when other applicants don’t. So make no mistake about the true nature of this debate - it’s more about politics than education, and more about politics than equal opportunity.
92
As a progressive I am offended by the racial/ethnic stereotyping inherent in Mayor DeBlasio's plan. These are specialized schools open only to NYC's best students as determined by a carefully crafted and vetted test. There is no racial or ethnic preference in Math and Science questions. DeBlasio's unspoken assumption is that minority students are not smart enough or work hard enough to successfully compete for a seat. Obviously, too many go to underperforming elementary/middle schools . Abolishing admission testing is not a solution to any educational gaps among students. The answer is to raise the quality of instruction through special programs such as the Gateway Program which provided intensive instruction, weekend classes and summer academic camps Gateway was quite successful. The competence level of many low income minority students rose dramatically through the Gateway Program and many went on to top notch Ivy colleges. Kids can learn and do well on these tests and succeed in getting into these specialized high schools. Let's keep the specialized high school for special students!
78
My father attended Stuyvesant, I attended Stuyvesant and I taught in Stuyvesant for nearly 30 years. I had witnessed the changing demographics of the student body over the years. To suggest that a person will be a successful academic based on the color of one’s skin or one’s country of origin is, in my opinion, and based on my experience, ludicrous. I also think that there is a great deal of unfairness in how admission to the SHS is determined. It is fairly easy to prepare for an exam that is essentially the same each year. Perhaps a different style of exam each year would help level the playing field.
6
@Alum "It is fairly easy to prepare for an exam that is essentially the same each year." This statement tends to undermine the argument for eliminating the exam as the key to increasing ethnic diversity. It seems to argue that studying for the exam, whose contents are well-known, will pretty much ensure a good performance on it. Is that not exactly what the team's proponents are saying? It's rather like the old question, "Can you tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall?" The answer is the same: "Practice...practice...practice". any parent who wants a child to succeed academically will push that child to study, study study. And there are far too many examples of children who succeed by doing just this, without Kaplan courses, on their, with little more than desire and drive. It's there for anyone who wants it. But first, it must actually be wanted.
15
In general agree but not all candidates are good under pressure & it is a timed test or it was when my younger brother took in 1960 , He did not pass but still went to CCNY & was later the Project Manager of Patriot Missle project. Both I & my 2nd brother went to Tech & had very succesful Internationl engineeing carrers but were not at the rocket scientist level . Now reired in Atlanta area , home to a 10 year old world class STEM HS with an invisible entrance test. Gwinettt STEM requires candiate to take HS alegbra in the 8th grade to be eligible to apply. Some 3000 did & 400 won places in the 1000 student HS that is ranked #6 in the USA ahead of all NYC HS's . There are 2 problems :A- selection ( among the pre-qualified candidates ) is a lottery; B- no sports or clubs ( except Chess, Math & robotics ). As result only super-nerds are willing to give up there teenage life. The NYC schools have spors /clubs which benefited me as a semi-nerd who earned a college scholarship to a service academy.The lottery system could well eliminate the "smarest guy in the room" from entrance much like the timed exam eliminated my brother . Not sure how to regularize the issue but the invisible test is surely part of the solution.
Walter Leen- Tech class of 1960
Without question, there are students who do not make the cut score who could succeed and have succeeded at the specialized high schools, and admissions criteria need to be changed to provide access to those students. The journalists on this story need to investigate the numbers of Black and Latino students who attend "high performing" charter schools and the non-test but screened high performing high schools most of which were created during the Bloomberg years. There are more options for all students and one factor contributing to the shrinking numbers of Black and Latino students accepted to the three specialized schools may be that there are more choices and these as well as others are choosing other options.
8
“Though the city has acknowledged that it could eliminate the test at the other five specialized schools, the mayor has said he does not want a two-tiered system.”
This proves we have a failure caused by narrow minded zero-sum leadership and is an admission that it is academic testing that makes these schools “specialized”, not the names of the schools, their buildings or even the teachers.
Having identified a need for specialized schools for what the article describes as a different and somewhat academically challenged population, why doesn’t the Mayor call for adding new schools that would use the combined geographic and academic performance based admissions criteria. Adding such schools would provide opportunities without taking away from those academically qualified for the present schools. The program in the new schools could be tailored to the new students’ needs. As it stands, the Mayor’s proposal looks like a mean spirited call to dismantle and destroy a successful specialized high school system simply because leadership is lacking to create the programs and schools to address the need that has been identified.
18
@Tom Sz. Schools like these already exist. Townsend Harris doesn’t use a test, and the numbers of Blacks & Hispanics there are terrible too.
5
Martin Luther King famously looked towards a day when men will be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin; Mayor DeBlasio's proposal would have judged students on the color of their skin rather than their academic performance.
That this pitted one minority against others is a sign of the degree to which the plan was discriminatory.
If we want to increase the representation of black and Hispanic students in the elite high schools, we will have to do the real work of improving their academic performance, rather than telling an Asian kid that his hard work doesn't count because he's a member of the wrong minority and pretending that admitting a student to a prestigious school magically improves his academic performance.
163
If this proposal had been well communicated, and was part of an overhaul of all the problems plaguing the NYC public school system, it might have had a chance and triggered thoughtful debate - whether or not it is a good idea.
Instead, it is yet another example of the self-serving populism of our political leaders and their appointees, on all sides of the issues these days: In this case, this issue is apparently only about race, we are instructed, and anyone against the plan is racist.
Judging by the comments posted to this article, and many other articles, we've been poorly served by the media when it comes to scrutinizing the Mayor and the dysfunction of NYC.
While the failures of NYC are shared by other big cities, the Mayor's failures seem to be particularly unique and deserve more attention and analysis so we can find solutions.
How about a ten part series from the NY Times on each aspect of the issues we face, from opioids to mass transit, with a comparison to other cities, and recommended solutions? I smell a Pulitzer! Or is that demagoguery?
21
Well my probably values on Long Island are going up. Many of the better school districts which are most of them are being flooded with people moving out of NYC in search of better schools. I guess some things never change. My grandparents did this 60 years ago. As once Italians, Jews and Irish came to long island. Now Chinese and Indians etc are creating their own communities in search of better schools.
19
The single most important factor that favors a student's chances for acceptance into one of NYC's elite high schools is,
"parental support" - from birth! These are the parents who prioritize the value of education and who pursue all opportunities relentlessly; the parents who willingly sacrifice a good portion of their lives for their children. Any parent can do this because all it takes willpower, determination, and hard work.
105
@rab
Can you please describe how the single parent who works 3 jobs to put food in the table and doesn't have the time or resources (or perhaps even education themselves) to assist their child with schoolwork or provide the opportunities that wealth grants access to, "isn't working hard enough"?
1
@Samuel Well, the first issue is don't become a single parent. Today's euphamism for unwed mother. Divorced mothers don't seem to factor into that phrase these days. Decisions (and impulses!) have consequences. But regardless, what do you propose? Let the children of this mother get into an elite school "just because?"
Getting yourself into poverty is not hard. Unfortunately, too many cultures and sub-cultures still fail to understand that, and then they want the fruits of hard work to fall to them.
6
@Samuel
Same situation for many of the Asian families, who are also low-income, work in multiple jobs, many don't even speak English well. Yet they value education for their kids. Can you please ask yourself why.
3
I always blamed the test, when I didn’t study.
Start with it’s not the test’s fault, and work from there.
137
Awarding any opportunity based on race or ethnicity is a terrible idea. Asians are being targeted because of their academic success. Great way to divide the citizens.
150
@Pepperman
Asian students are being targeted because they are too small in numbers and have no political power whatsoever...!
5
Dumbing down the entrance requirements and academic standards of these schools is a simplistic solution that could reduce the value of an education provided by them.
61
It looks like the Democrats hav enjoined the Republicans in lowering standards.
8
"Some black and Hispanic students have said they did not even know the exam existed "
Uh, what are the teachers and school boards doing in places that don't know the exam exists.
It's not the exam, it's the system that doesn't present options and opportunities to its students.
I bet the students who get into these schools are well aware of the content they will be tested on.
51
Is there any action de Blasio's takes that is not grandstanding? He gladly would bring NY back to the dark ages for his own political gain and to satisfy his tiny but vocal base.
112
A single high-stakes test of “merit” and “ability” that benefits from preparation ...Where have we seen this before? Is this the best way to provide access to high-quality education? All families want their children to have excellent educations, but the know-how to navigate the complex system of gatekeeping is unevenly distributed. It would be much fairer to try to distribute quality educational resources, rather than concentrate them as a limited good. But we’d have to 1) agree on what high-quality education is and 2) prepare teachers and schools to provide it and 3) fund schools equally. (I know that some high-poverty schools get extra funding.) We’d rather cling to our beliefs about some people deserving rich, complex learning and others being stuck in dilapidated buildings with impoverished curricula.
8
@Susan Blum As any public school teacher will tell you, what we need first are children who are raised by a family that considers education a priority, that insists on attending class and doing homework, and acting responsibly both in and out of the classroom.
211
Not all families value education.
Lots of ignorant whites out there who scoff at the "elites" with their college degrees.
If all families cherished learning, we'd have better schools.
29
@B. Exactly. The problem is not racism, but values
9
Important math to consider:
As of fall 2018 there were 1,135,334 students in the NYC school system, only 15% (170,300) of whom are white. There are 1,840 public schools (including charters), with an average of 617 students per school. (NYC Dept of Ed)
The tiny percentage of white students means that the closest NYC can come to integrating its schools is to place an equal number of white students into each of the City's schools, which would mean an average of 93 white students per school and an average of 524 non-white students per school.
The Mayor and the School Superintendent seem to believe that mixing white students with minority students is the only way to improve educational outcomes for all students, but I don't think 93 white students per school is enough to accomplish that goal. (And isn't it insulting to minority students to suggest that they need exposure to white students to improve or succeed in school?)
Unfortunately, if the Mayor and Superintendent make further attempts to force integration by busing or by re-zoning school districts or by lowering admission standards for specialized schools, further white flight to the suburbs or private schools is inevitable.
There are simply not enough white students to spread around NYC public schools; the solution to the problem of variable student outcomes and opportunities is to acknowledge that residential and economic segregation exist and focus efforts and funds on improving education at ALL public schools.
89
@Mon Ray
What's the maths (or links to the sites that have the maths) on the total number of students in the "specialized" high schools, and the ethnic composition, etc.?
1
@Bramha Google New York City Department of Education, use search function for school enrollments.
I’m sure the writers of today’s article have the information you request at their fingertips and can provide more details and links than I can.
6
@Mon Ray
This information is easily found by Googling and it has been covered in several NYT stories.
1
The bill was radioactive because it was insane. The notion that a race neutral exam was itself racist can only be so in the mind of a logic-free zealot intent on awarding political patronage to his preferred racial groups. The mayor and school chancellor have waged a war on anything resembling academic excellence. The fact that that Asians are doing better on these exams than whites belies the whole argument that the test is “racist,” but why let facts get in the way?
354
Parents and students with skin in the game (as opposed to politicians and activists pushing their own agendas) give a huge sigh of relief.
49
The real problem for those seeking to change admission stats to the SHS schools is that the usual monetary privilege dichotomies that permit many in our society an advantage over others isn’t present here. You’ve got poor Asian students pitted against other poor students of color. The Asian students benefit because they come from a culture that is an excellent recipe for supporting success on the tests. These tests are the main priority for many Asian families. An entire middle childhood is devoted to preparation for them. No bettering of middle schools is going to really compete with that. But the SHS schools are clearly missing out on naturally gifted students. There has to be a better criteria for entry.
36
@AJ
Well, for political reasons, we can't test for IQ, which would identify naturally gifted students in every group. So there's no real alternative to measuring academic achievement other perhaps than teacher recommendations, which would be very subjective.
11
@Josh Hill
I guess they could try something like structured interviews to identify "naturally gifted" students with test scores below the cutoff, but that would open up a whole new can of worms, and you would also have folks trying to "game the system" - as in the case of extra time to take the test provided to some students.
Why are 42% of the students allowed extra time white?
1
@Bramha Because they have involved parents who know to ask. This is NYC. You don't ask, you don't get.
12
Now that that fiasco has failed, maybe Messrs. DiBlasio and Carranza can get down to actually improving the city's junior high schools, so that students learn enough to be able to pass the test.
But I doubt they will. Like getting into Stuyvesant, fixing the schools is hard.
166
@Eric
Spot on! You can start with the promotion policies that NYC's junior high schools establish. My guess is that many (if not most) offer a "free-ride" into high school.
I have the solution to this problem if anyone is interested. It was implemented in my junior high school here in upstate NY and was the closest thing to a magic bullet you can imagine. It is also FREE!
6
@Eric: And to improve student performance, the students need to actually show up for class! Some families put such a low priority on education that this attitude is communicated to the prospective students. School becomes a less important option that standing on the street corner and/or socializing with your peer group. Instead of dumbing down the tests, or eliminating them altogether, enforcing school attendance would produce more positive results.
10
Here's another opportunity for many Times readers to look down their noses at kids that do not have the good fortune to have parents who are informed and well educated about schools. Once again, I believe that academic screening for public schools at this level is not appropriate and denies many children the right to attend a high quality school in their neighborhood.
4
@jonr The answer is in your first sentence; more than anything else, for a child to succeed they must have parents who are informed and well educated about schools. Public education can not provide parents, but must deal with the consequences of poor parenting. As any public school teacher will tell you, what we need first are children who are raised by a family that considers education a priority, that insists on attending class and doing homework, and acting responsibly both in and out of the classroom.
42
We have now entered the age of instituting universal K-12 education chaperones - a whole new class of educators who sole function is walking children through the process of acquiring and demonstrating the skills required to participate in academics.
6
This story underscores the failure of the "racism explains all things" and "privilege" narrative.
Here we have a completely merit based system. Indeed low income Asians are the ones taking advantage of this, many don't even speak English at home.
Not much privilege there.
So now the complaint is "I didn't know about it?" Seriously?
What makes these schools "elite" is the very fact that it only admits students who are prepared to pass hard academic tests in the first place. I'm just average athletic ability, I should be let into the Olympic Training Camp in order to "diversify it" even though I'm nowhere near prepared enough to pass their entrance exam .
So which policy is racist? A completely merit based test, or doing away with that test to give people of a certain community a leg up?
384
@enkidu: I don't live in NYC -- in fact, I am 500 miles away in icky flyover country.
But I've heard of Stuyvesant and Bronx Science and know they are top, competitive high schools.
HOWEVER…I'll go with "the kids never heard of this".
So why did DeBlasio not START WITH a public information program -- ads in buses and subway cars -- posters at the schools -- packets of info for teachers and principals -- FREE prep classes (or MORE free prep classes)????
Why START WITH dumbing down the elite schools?
51
@Concerned Citizen Because DeBlaz is lazy, and he only wants easy solutions. He doesn't want to have to think about complex answers to complex questions.
Plus, he's running for President now, so he doesn't actually care about any of this city stuff anymore.
38
The status quo is irrelevant. Education is still a function of how much a parent can pay. CEO’s are still overpaid losers. The New York Department of labor is still a behind the times. So what. Yawn.
2
What this defeat confirms is the failure of New York, and every other major city in the United States, to offer a top notch education to every child in each district. Parents understand that many schools are overcrowded, that poorer schools too often received the weakest teachers, that resources for schools are unequally distributed. So if they perceive their children to have an edge in their ability to excel in an exam, they will oppose any effort to level the playing field.
Every school should be a specialized school with small class sizes and smart, effective teachers. The entire system needs fixing, from kindergarten through high school. If we really believe education has the power to transform lives, we would act more boldly.
10
@Daisy
"Every school should be a specialized school with small class sizes and smart, effective teachers."
My kid went to a beautiful high school in a highly taxed area of Maine, with most class sizes between 12-15 students, computers for every student, great A-V resources, huge playing fields, and, basically, better resources than most colleges, and he didn't learn half as much as I did at Stuyvesant, with 45-50 students in a class, some sitting on the radiators because there were no seats, with thirty year old textbooks and ceilings that literally collapsed in some of the classrooms.
Bottom line: It's the students and teachers (especially the students) that make the school, and dumbing down the student body will not help in any way.
284
I think you need two dedicated, cohesive, like minded parents to help children succeed academically. This is largely absent in many cultures. Doing backflips for tourists in Central Park is great for athletic improvement but doesn’t make one as qualified for specialized academic schools that require hours of intense concentration.
14
We generally do not and should not make policy decisions based on a single data point. All the high quality peer reviewed education research will point to a myriad of factors that improve educational outcomes for ALL students and not just the students who have the support at home. Otherwise, public education doesn’t quite address inequalities within our society (as it was intended to do).
Also, why do we as parents make statements about education that hark back to a time when we thought ‘things worked’? We almost never do that with fields such as medicine and hard sciences. We defer to the folks with expertise and the bodies that oversee the publications of rigorous scientific research. Yet somehow for our kids (the future of our nation) we don’t want to base our decisions on data. We’re willing to base policy decisions that impact hundreds of thousands of children who come from varying walks on our sole experience. Why?
2
The population of the city has grown. Has the availability of elite high schools? A child in Brownsville may think twice about taking a two hour plus trip from Brooklyn to Bronx Science, but suppose there was a Brownsville Science? What about placing new high schools on college campuses, similar to Townsend Harris in Queens? Bright minority students do not know about specialized high schools, but there are also serious obstacles to attendance, including distance. Locate great school locally. At the same time, the injection of another super wealthy person (Lauder) into this discussion is troubling. Did his children take the entrance exam, and attend a city high school? Did they take pubic transportation? Does it provide equal free preparation for these tests for all children, similar to those commercial test preps popping up everywhere?
6
@et.al.nyc It will cost money to build new schools, not to mention miles of bureaucracy just to get it approved. Are you prepared to pay higher taxes for them?
6
@et.al.nyc
"A child in Brownsville may think twice about taking a two hour plus trip from Brooklyn to Bronx Science..."
I commuted to Stuyvesant from Staten Island every day for four years. It wasn't easy, but if you want the education, you do it.
That's really the crux of the issue: Whether and how badly a student wants to go to one of these schools and how hard s/he is willing to work.
209
@Eric I don't think that's a proper excuse for not having more of these types of schools in areas where people can access them. Also, they can be incorporated into the existing public school structure with some ingenuity. Your "I walked in a snowstorm to school so they should be able to as well" denies the reality many students live with. Many have difficulty just getting to and staying in school IN THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS much less traveling long distance to another.
2
As I've posted before in reaction to other NYT articles on this topic, I saw with my own eyes how my child's VERY diverse UWS middle school did nothing to inform ahead of time its students of the existence of SHS and the entrance exam.
The school's adminitration, all black and latinx by the way, did not believe in sending their kids to SHS but its approach basically made the decision for its students.
My kid started preparing for the test in September of 7th grade (on her own, mind you), but most if not all of her friends learned about SHS only in the spring of 7th grade, 6 months before the exam, which was too late in my opinion. A lot of her friends got excited, took advantage of free tutoring and summer classes, but in the end none of them got in.
It should start at the end of 6th grade, tell students of color and / or low income families that these schools exists, that "you belong there and we will help you get in, starting now".
It's a question of psychology, NOT ability!
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@Eric Keep the faith!
We constantly hear about white Americans battling to maintain their privilege, but as we can see here, any group that profits by a system (in this case, Americans of Asian descent) will fight to maintain the status quo that benefits them.
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@ERT The status quo is a meritocracy based on a test. You do well on the test, you're in. It doesn't get more race blind than that. And before you say it, many of these Asian families are not wealthy at all.
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@ERT
Many of these Asian kids are from poor immigrant families. The only way that the status quo benefits them is that it's sometimes meritocratic, as in this case. Otherwise, they're going to face discrimination throughout their lives -- both sides of it, discrimination because they're Asian rather than white, and discrimination because they're a "successful" minority and are subject to the same rancid policies as Jews were during the days of the Jewish quota.
Just see the Harvard admissions scandal. What's done to these kids is shameful.
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Why aren’t black and brown kids doing better on the SHSAT tests?
The first places to look are the poor quality of the lower feeder schools and the limited SHSAT test prep available to these students.
Improving just these two factors would definitely increase the number of black and brown students who pass the entrance tests, and would be cheaper and much more feasible than trying to change the values and culture of these students’ parents, who in general do not place as much emphasis and value on education as do, say, Asian parents.
Eliminating the SHSAT tests and dumbing down the curricula of the Specialized High Schools is ridiculous and counter-productive, and will only serve to reduce even further the proportion of white students (now at 15% of NYC public school enrollment).
The answer to these problems is not to abolish the SHSAT tests, but to improve ALL public schools.
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@Mon Ray,
Does "brown" include South Asian kids (e.g. India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, etc.), or are they included in "Asian"?
Just wondering if only East Asian (China, Japan, Korea) kids are over-represented in these schools, or South Asian as well.
Any data on country of origin of students at these schools?
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This issue is so ridiculous, laughable really. If they ever drop the admissions test for the specialized schools just to balance out the number of students according to race, the schools would have to lower their standards and it would no longer be prestigious to obtain admission to them. The truth is that some students work harder than other students, some students are smarter than other students, some students have more family support and higher expectations from their parents. You can try all you want to have equal outcomes for all by lowering standards to change the racial demographics in these schools, but that would only hurt the students who truly earned their spots because the curriculum would have to be dumbed down so that less qualified students could do well. Also, graduating from the specialized schools would become meaningless. I realize from reading the article that the schools racial demographics include mainly Asian American students, but so what? Why should any Asian American student be penalized for working hard to be successful in school, for having parents who have high expectations of them, and for being smarter than the average person? I don't care one bit what race my brain surgeon is, but I sure do want him/her to be someone who legitimately earned his/her spot in medical school, not somebody who took a spot because of race from someone else who was more qualified. Your race does not determine your qualifications and it should not determine outcomes.
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“Test taking robots?” Nonsense.
As a Stuyvesant graduate I know that the strength of an education there depended on being challenged by other students more intellectually “gifted” than I was. It is time to stop trying to short circuit the discussion by crying privilege and face the real issue — substandard elementary and middle schools across the city.
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@Traymn
I notice that you're using that very privacy-invading and soul-destroying Internet to post your content.
There are numerous countries today in which there are few science and math geeks because education isn't widely available. And guess what -- they're miserably poor, and rely on countries that do have strong educational systems for things like pharmaceuticals that they can't make themselves.
If you had your way, we'd still be dressing in skins and hunting with spears.
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Recognizing one’s intellectual advantages and the high quality of one’s education does not in any way lead to lies, cheating, or bribery.
The majority of students who attend these specialized high schools are not, by any means, coming from families with financial or other material advantages. Today, as in the past, they are children of people of modest incomes who are unable to send them to private schools. Immigrants and refugees are among them — Stuyvesant has a student body whose families speak one of 25 languages at home and live in neighborhoods all over the city. Characterizing the students at these schools as snobbish elites who feel entitled and unwilling to associate with people unlike themselves is incorrect, as is the assertion that they are only math and science technocrats.
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As usual, Di Blasio failed to do the groundwork to develop policy that would have widespread public support. His choice of Carranza for Chancellor has only deepened the divisions among families with a stake in this debate. Carranza's arrogant, dismissive approach to families' concerns means that Di Blasio will not be able to build support for his initiatives.
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Interesting that this bill is being cast as having "divided many of New York's families among racial lines". The division seems to be between those pushing it and those who had no interest in it or opposed it. Even Black leaders needed convincing.
Thus, the problem with identity-driven analysis.
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