I agree with this, I too have been convicted of a felony. You've got to want to stay out of jail. But, the jobs are out there. I've known quite a few guys that brought their prison attitudes home with them, along with their vocabulary. And they'll get a job, get their first paycheck, and then not come back the next day/week/forever. I keep seeing posts by people that insist felons cannot find a job. They might not hire me to count the gold at Fort Knox, but they will hire me to put a hot tar roof on a house. If you can't find a job after being released from prison, it might be those "White Power" tattoos on your neck. Or your "shotcaller" attitude around your coworkers.
awesome
3
Great to see people in my hometown doing something positive!
Not easy in Yonkers where the city management is still incompetent after all these years AND the police force is still racist.
Ten miles way from Manhattan on a beautiful river!
AND Yonkers is still the pits!
Lousy schools -rampant malfeascance and corruption.
Yeah you guessed it -Run by incompetent Republicans.
1
The US judicial and penal systems are among the worst in the Western world.
The world needs more entrepreneurs like Bernie Glassmans and journalists like Tina Rosenberg.
This is a truly newsworthy article, unlike the usual fare from Brooks, Douthat, and Stephens.
1
Good comments, pro & con. A balance is called for: don't just open your doors & "take what you want" but also don't throw away basically good people. Kudos for the article & for the positive action.
4
My brother-in-law works for Koch industry here and drug testing is very much still in effect, even for established employees not working around dangerous equipment.
12
They used to make a splendid collection of cakes and pies, until they decided to focus on brownies. Wish they'd bring the other goods back, I'd give them more of my business.
4
@BB This is true. Although I have never been to Greyston Bakery, I have a venerable cookbook of theirs on my shelves.
@BB, For me it was all about the cheesecake!
1
@BB
don't mess wit' my Ben and Jerry's ' )
When it is all whether or not you got caught before you grew up and ceased doing crimes.
Of course there are crimes & there are folkways.
"You cannot legislate away folkways." is sociology.
The whole nation of the USSR was a prison. How far has the US become in total a prison population?
The institutionalized people are playing by the rules of the
institution either in or out of the locus buildings of that
institution.
3
Actually, if you think about it, one of the big advantages that undocumented immigrants have, or even legal immigrants, is no papertrail. I bet a lost of Americans wish they could be 'undocumented.'
8
@david
LUV yer typo !
Criminal background check goes back only 7 years.
This is great...Nine years ago I was hired as a staff writer by a big corporation but, before starting day, an HR person called to rescind the job offer...I was utterly heartbroken, assuming decades-old drug charges were the source of my problem...Yet I researched the NYC Charter which specifically stated that a criminal charge, if wholly unrelated to the position, could NOT be used to prevent employment...After emailing the HR folks with the info, I got the job offer back!...It was traumatic but I was resourceful...I may have committed felonies but I literally cannot recall the details at all...Are Americans supposed to be shackled to all transgressions in their pasts? It’s absurd...What kind of real American man hasn’t spent a few nights in jail? These days with computerized records nothing slips through the cracks...Let ancient errors stay in the hazy past where they belong...
3
Excellent, uplifting article. If you give people meaningful work to do, at a fair wage, they will be less apt to get into trouble...and we’ll have a happier, more productive society. I hope other businesses will follow this example.
5
It's easy, in 2019, to make the counterargument to what Greyston does: what if the prospective employee, in question, is a convicted rapist of women, or sexual assailant? Doesn't a company owe its female employees the protection of keeping such people out of the workplace? Isn't a company creating an unsafe environment if they fail due diligence in background checks?
I don't think I agree with that position entirely, but it illustrates the bind that employers are in.
2
If an employer is naive enough to believe that there is a segment of the population who will not rob or steal from them, then they will learn the hard way. Once upon a time, I hired manual workers from a seemingly credible temp agency (large national chain), only to find out they were not properly vetting their workers. It took a police detective telling me about what these workers had been up to while on the job for me to realize the importance of only hiring people without criminal records. Sad fact of life, but one can’t be too careful.
2
The really good thieves don't get caught. Therefore they don't have a criminal record.
2
@Jeffrey If every segment of the population will steal from you, what good does a background check provide?
2
wow.
Try getting Big Tech on board with this instead of Sub-Contractors and the Gig Economy.
or Hedge Funds, who cripple businesses like Sears with debt and fees, and bankrupt them after liquidating their assets and looting the pensions.
10
Who'd a thunk it.
A little slice of what America used to be about.
9
I was a restaurant and bar manager for years. My best employees often had criminal records and most smoked pot. Most had terrible credit. I never worked for a corporate organization that required drug testing and criminal background checks. It really limits a company in regards to hiring and retaining good people. Kudos to Greyston and all the other businesses who succeed by eschewing "the box".
13
Yet another reason to be Buddhist. Go, Bernie!
5
Please don't conflate Buddhism with Bernie.
9
In jobs, where those employed work with people in schools, nursing homes, as bus drivers, or come into one's home to do work or repair, you need to know about the background, of those who have had assault, child abuse, domestic violence, rape, theft, murder, etc.in their backgrounds. This new method of employing people, might be okay for a job working with objects, on an assembly line, or with mechanics, but not with people.
12
It's about time! As a European living in the US, I am appalled by US hiring practices, which seem to be a reflection of the US judicial system: its all about persecution! Why does your employer need to know your FICO score, unless you are about to be hired as CFO or chief accountant! Why does it matter you smoke weed, unless you are an airline pilot or train conductor. Home Depot proudly puts on its doors: "we test for drugs, do not bother apply if you use drugs". By necessity, given my trade, I do have to shop at Home Depot frequently, and frankly, I wished they tested for brains!
22
Hmmm. Sounds like how we elected a president in 2016.
7
Finally, a place where Trump can work when he leaves office. Unless his bone spurs prevent that as well.
14
Why aren't a thousand readers leaving comments on this article, cheering? This is what is right with this country. When articles on Trump and what's wrong with this country generate thousands of comments to the NYT, this positive, uplifting story should be filling hearts and minds.
17
Agree with you totally. What a lovely, uplifting story! Thank you NYT for publicizing how these good businesses are doing good - both for themselves and for their employees.
6
We have hired and will continue to hire individuals that were convicted of felonies. Some have served time in prison. They're more reliable than those who are in and out of jail. We'll work with them until they fire themselves. None have a violent history. They do production work, where there's little opportunity to steal anything but tools or supplies.
We don't give them positions where they can do serious financial harm, in part because if a person put in that position does steal big, the hiring manager would look very foolish and is likely to lose their job over it.
I'm interested to know if Mr. Brady hires people with criminal records to handle high liability positions and, if so, how that has worked out.
7
This is fantastic.
6
And what happens when someone who was hired without any background check assaults a customer, or steals, or rapes someone, or drunk drives while on a delivery? Not all pst behavior predicts future behavior. But it is surely relevant. This is just irresponsible.
2
Like Harvey Weinstein?
1
The drug testing industry and it is an industry is a sham. It’s not as if rehab or counseling will be offered If you test positive. It’s simply a tool to limit liability. Especially post accidents to avoid paying workers comp.
5
Thank you for making us aware of this wonderful bakery that is successfully using open hiring for factory positions. Good for them. I do not believe that the Buddhist principle of non-judgment requires that a landlord hire a convicted rapist, child molester, or serial killer to a position as an apartment manager that has keys to many apartments. Buddhists are permitted to judge some actions even when shying away from judging individuals. People are responsible for the foreseeable results of actions. Let’s fix the broken criminal justice system so that when people are convicted of violent crimes, we believe that they actually committed those crimes, and then feel an obligation to exercise reasonable judgment based on facts to protect other employees, vendors, customers, and renters from someone who has a history of committing violent crimes, when appropriate because of the nature of the job position. A police chief once told me that the greatest indication that a person might engage in violence against another person in the future is a history of using violence against people. She seemed smart to me. Victims should sue employers when predictable violence occurs in the workplace because an employer failed to exercise reasonable judgment in hiring felons with a history of violence.
4
The Talmud teaches those that will listen he that saves one life is regarded as if he had saved the world.
The opposite of misdemeanors are mitzvot. They are the everyday things we do to make the world a kinder gentler place or a harsher more judgemental and painful ordeal. The founders did not know enough Yiddish to give guidance to the meaning of misdemeanors.
5
The employee is not drug tested, comes to work under some influence, causes a bad accident.
What are the liabilities? Insurance wise? Legally? Civilly?
1
"Only a few studies have examined these concerns. One looked at America’s largest employer: the United States military. The study found that soldiers with a felony conviction were promoted more quickly and to higher ranks than others and show no differences in dropout rates or rates of discharge for negative reasons."
The study of the United States military cited in the article is very interesting, but it does not support a policy of employment without background checks or review. Indeed, the study makes clear that the military experience is with enlistees with criminal records who were accepted after significant screening of that record and other factors.
5
Buddhism is about the present, not the future (or past.). These people are being hired for where they are at the current moment.
1
That's not right. Buddhism is about the future. The present is just sand which slips through your hands.
I was staggered that 30% of working age adults have a criminal record that might effect their employment. Those records include only being charged, and only 25% of that 30% are convicted.
I think that says that too many are being charged, and that having that sort of barrier to employment effect 30% of the workers is crazy.
So many people here think that employers should exclude those with records, but just what are people supposed to do if they can't work, or even can't work up to their potential?
That sounds like a recipe for more crime and is terrible for the national economy.
15
It sounds to me like they’re trying to cut their hiring costs at the expense of proper due diligence. Violence in the workplace, theft, work habits? They, their employees and customers will pay the price.
5
but the article points out that that is not the case with felony-convicted hires. in fact it's the opposite.
11
@Brad Read the article again. I know, hard to believe...maybe we all need to take a second look at our assumptions about work and people.
4
@Brad
Jack and Timothy,
I understand and am sympathetic to your points, but what about liability to the employer. I've been a senior manufacturing manger for many years. What do I do with the employee that just got out of prison for taking a hammer to their supervisor's head or a person as a buyer who was arrested for stealing? If don't ask, I can't decide? As for drugs, short of DoD, DoT type work, I'm not as concerned as the question is are they reliable. There are plenty of people with bad work habits and they've not all drug related.
2
As long as there is potential liability for negligent hiring (e.g., an employee with a criminal past assaults a co-worker) then these background checks are legally advisable.
1
Lawyers constrain freedom. No diving, swimming, no second chances for people convicted of a crime that have paid their debt to society.
6
@Thomas
Did you read the article?
What are the recidivism rates at Glassman's bakery?
but Not Neccessary, re: the article. did you read it?
Investing in employees and treating them as assets, not costs, is something corporate America, in general, doesn’t know how to do anymore.
Other, very successful countries, like Germany, do invest in their employees and it seems to work pretty well.
Kudos to Mr Glassman.
Doing well by doing good.
17
Nothing stops any business from hiring a person with a less than perfect past. There are many good reasons why some people in some professions should under go a background check. God intentions aside, do you really want a person convicted of theft handling valuables or a folks lift driver on drugs?
4
as the article stated these fears are unfounded by the facts. read the article & check the the facts.
1
No second chances comdems one to a life of crime
1
Why is it we don't drug test judges and district attorneys? They don't desire any more benefit of the doubt we get in most of our workplaces.
9
agree @Mason Ripleywhy my son being deeply vetted for the position of Transportation Security Officer than our current President?
It is crazy intrusive even asking about relatives backrounds, I can understand this since 9/11 and the kind of position it is but Trump would never pass what my son has passed, he would fail the credit check alone no less all the other invasive parts yet he is still President, I don't get it.
Anyway I think it is a good thing this company is doing, puts ppl to work instead of on the streets!
7
@Mason Ripley
I've always found it odd and insulting that low level/entry level jobs drug test often, but higher level jobs/"careers" often don't. I've been drug tested by Wal Mart, for example, to be hired in their one hour photo dept. I've also taught fine art at the college level. No drug test to teach, lol.
Personally, I think no one should be drug tested, unless they are showing up to work high/drunk. What you do on your off hours is your business.
11
Interesting. Suitable for this and some other work. Not so suitable for choosing officer candidates, major government officials, or athletic coaches and doctors for children.
3
@Marvant Duhon
Your posts are usually better than this.
"[M]ajor government officials?"
What do you think Trump has been doing all these years? An end run around background checks, abetted by handpicked cronies.
His taxes are still being audited apparently and therefore unavailable for Congressional scrutiny.
4
@Marvant Duhon
Uh, we do have some "major" government officials with serious issues, including openly bragging about assaults on women.
Please note the recent convictions of more than one coach, for sexual abuse of children.Drug abuse in the healing arts professions does indeed occur.
2
@Marvant Duhon The way we choose government officials like Donald Trump, athletic coaches like Jerry Sandusky, or doctors like Harold Bornstein?
2
I wonder how many people with misdemeanor or even felony records are result of coercion by prosecutors piling on charges that few would take a chance on fighting. Statistically, only 3 percent of cases actually go to trial. Rest are adjudicated with coerced plea deals.
21
@ArturYes talk about scamming ppl, that is what Plea Deals are, they hit you up with so many bogus extra, crazy, ridiculous charges that @ 1st you actually seem happy to have some of them taken off but soon realize they should not have been added in the 1st place, and then it's to late and you have been scammed into the deal, shame on our Justice system & our courts!
1
Kudos to Tina Rosenberg for airing this important issue in the NYT.
Bernie Glassman is a visionary and a humanitarian.
There are many talented and resourceful people languishing on the sidelines because of "checkered" pasts and because Human Resources departments are staffed with petty, vindictive people.
Oh yes, and the US military and the police are not above framing people.
17
Let's face it, these are warm body jobs. Stacking pallets and the like. Most likely highly repetitive and robots at this point are still too expensive. Reliability is one of the most important features to assess in any new hire. Perhaps the owner shouldn't go on blind trust with who he hires given it's such an important quality? Unless he likes to endlessly retrain new hires. Perhaps he does.
4
@No big deal So the success this employer has had is illusory? Maybe these people shouldn't have jobs? Should they also be ineligible for public assistance "welfare"? How then should they survive? Maybe they will simply do away with themselves and spare you the dilemma.
But probably not.
5
He doesn't. re: the article.
2
@No big deal
A lot of people would call a warm body job, just a job.
1
Great article, and very nice to see some good news for a change. This makes so much sense.
16
When your 70 like I am I have plenty of "background" for a background check but it will never include the good deeds that I have done or good karma I've created or my job accomplishments . A credit check, I experienced a medical related bankruptcy does that make me a potentially bad employee. Besides my credit is a personal matter to me and my creditors not my potential employer, I want to earn my money not borrow it from my employer. This is an invasion of privacy. Drug test, well I used weed a couple of times about forty years ago but like most Americans I do drink socially, red wine is my preference and since alcohol is a drug it probably rules out most Americans as drug free. At my age I am surprised that they don't require a colonoscopy or prostate exam but then again it doesn't matter, they see my age and automatically put me in the discard file. I even got fired from a job for being too old even though I outsold and outworked everyone else in the organization under 55 and in five years had never taken a sick day.
If trump with his background, terrible credit, moral depravity, obesity and age can be considered for and made president of the US I should at least qualify to be a Marvel Avenger.
35
@Steve OMG you hit the nail right on the head, we
too have medical debt, big time,my husband had a stent, open heart surgery and hernia surgery in the last year, myself a shattered wrist with a plate and 10 screws and PT for 6 months, then another surgery to remove the plate and screws and more PT for 4 months cause the doctor screwed up the 1st surgery, and then broken foot for me so yes major medical expenses even with Medical Insurance which is expensive in and of itself.
It is no ones buisnesss that I have debt, we pay that debt as best we can along with many other Bills monthly!
When it comes to a backround check, utter nonsense related to Credit checks!
We have become a over the top intrusive society over the last 15-20 yrs and computers made things way worse for exposing stuff like this and so much more.
I feel sorry for young ppl growing up in this "we will track everything you do world we live in now"
I am surprised anyone is able to get work even with a college degree due to being tracked in every way possible. I love your post!!!
5
Love this organization. I can accept a bakery worker with a drug record. However, I would like my Uber drivers to be better vetted.
10
I was the corporate recruiter for a Defense contractor for many years and I figured out that the people I wanted to hire were smart enough to only give me contact information for coached references so why bother. I could have cultivated my own contacts among their previous employers but that seemed dishonest.
My people skills have never let me down (lets not talk about my three husbands). If somebody played me by jumping through all the hoops and insisting on a signed offer letter, only to take it to his present employer to get a raise I knew it before he left the building and I continued interviewing candidates.
Candidates can even overcome serious legal problems for high government clearances if the event is old and they have kept their nose clean and are honest about it.
Only DEA will not give you a clearance if you smoked pot in high school 30 years ago. Go figure.
Potential employees are a lot like dogs, if you approach them with kindness and honesty they return the favor.
8
It's also important to realize, as other articles on NYT have discussed over the last few years, that many folks are pressured into pleading guilty.
Basically they can't afford bail, and after a year or more in prison awaiting trial, they are offered a plea bargain that will allow for time-served and immediate release.
So many of the felons possibly did not commit (or at least may not have been legally guilty) of the crimes they have on their record.
24
@Phil
Tragically, this is true. More true than most people know, as the trauma and the shame keeps the "guilty" silent.
3
Phil, I've been there. It isn't that they aren't guilty, the great majority of them are guilty, as I was. I have never met anyone that did not freely admit to me or other incarcerated inmates, what they did. I'm sure there are some, the Innocence Project is proof of that, but they are very few. What the District Attorney does is pile the charges on, instead of just an arrest for evading arrest, it will be, endangering the life of a police officer, endangering the public, anything they can think of to load it on, and then take the deal for evading arrest, and dismiss the rest.
Fantastic to see words being put into action...and good results coming out the other end.
The HR process has gotten steadily more horrible throughout my career and I am not burdened with a criminal record. I can't even imagine how badly the odds are stacked against those who try to enter the work force with any sort of black mark on their record.
The most heartening thing in here is that the people are treated as a potentially valuable resource - that is, as people. There are some calculations ($1,900 to train, not wasting the $1,400 on recruiting/vetting, $3,520 to replace) but for the most part, it is an encouraging validation that in a corner of Yonkers, things can work the way they probably should.
17
Well, but background checks, drug tests and credit checks are about treating you as an underling. You show by allowing yourself to be judge on this basis that you will be subservient in all ways. It really doesn't matter if you can do the job well. These checks were never meant to weed out bad apples as they say. It's always a type of intimidation. Besides, most businesses are run by conservatives who just enjoy the opportunity to be cruel to other people.
It's not a merit based world out there, because very few people know what is meritorious. Most have there political and religious views and from those they do not stray. They would never consider judging others based on reality.
16
Many commenters viewed this article as I did. A demonstration of faith, hope and generosity. And then there were the not-so-few that promoted the christian view of society, revenge and vindictiveness as the only response to bad judgment. Never forgive. Always suspicious. It is small minded and repulsive.
20
@HT
You cornered the "Christian mentality" better than I could have! Nothing is more American than pettiness!
@HTWho says revenge and vindictiveness are the Christian view? maybe you know the wrong people who call themselves Christians.
The hiring process is a huge waste of time and nobody likes dealing with it. Ask any manger if they enjoy staffing and turn over. I guarantee the answer is no. In fact, HR is probably the most universally hated institution in any company after the board of directors. Everybody hates going through a formal hiring process. However, there is a sadistic sort of logic to the ritual.
By making the process tedious and time consuming, owners are discouraging managers from hiring unnecessarily and when they do hire, they have a vested interest in ensuring the employee's success. Meanwhile, applicants are discouraged from submitting frivolous applications because they are required to expend a lot of time and effort in order to make an application competitive if not always successful. This creates a relationship where neither party is inclined to waste the other's time.
This works especially well in a slack labor market. However, when things get tight, sometimes you just need a body.
That brings us to the fundamental principle of all hiring: Everyone tends to prefer networking. The manager has a recommendation from a theoretically trustworthy source. The employee has a responsibility not to embarrass the person providing the recommendation. Regardless of background or soft skills, both sides are more willing to enter the relationship with commitment and ease.
The problem for most felons, or most people really, is they lack access to a professional network.
9
@Andy
I posit they have an incredible network , but's all off the books...getting to "straight " , though
I would add that about two thirds of the jobs open in this country at a given time do not require a college degree. When we break the mold for those who did not have positive mentors or role models growing up, the value of gainful employment is soon recognized by these workers. The pride that comes from doing a job well then is reflected by what the worker can purchase for themselves, based on what they have actually earned (not tax payer funds that often run out too soon).
9
The past inability of those convicted of crimes to have gainful employment has left them out of normal society and a normal economy. One benefit of this economy is that it is giving people a chance to prove their economic worth in the legitimate economy. Thereby reducing recidivism.
I have some relatives who are good at their moral core, but made some stupid mistakes when young. It is wonderful seeing them finally doing well.
17
Some, perhaps most, people with criminal records are harmless: they were caught in possession of marijuana, or something like that.
Some are dangerous: they committed aggravated assault, armed robbery, rape or murder. Should they be in your workplace, where they will be a threat to co-workers?
15
@Jonathan Katz There it is. America the beautiful.
9
@Jonathan Katz I think the answer to your question really depends on what you think the purpose of incarceration is.
If you think its punishment for a crime committed and that the punishment will keep the criminals from committing the same crime, then you're probably right. In the heat of the moment, a person who has already acted violently will not be deterred by a vision of punishment. On the other hand, if you see the purpose of incarceration as an opportunity for an incarcerated person somehow to undergo transformation, then you end up elsewhere on this issue. People "find themselves" in different ways, and maybe some do so in prison--or, as this wonderful Zen bakery shows us, shortly thereafter.
14
@Jonathan Katz
It's been a Reagan day for me and I am taking every opportunity to say Reagan destroyed America.
Here in Canada we trust our governments to make as certain as possible that those who are a threat to our security are rendered as impotent as possible. We are a very deep state that works as well as it does because most of us still believe when someone says they are from the Federal Government and they are here to help we believe we are being told the truth.
Reagan told you government of the people by the people and for the people was your problem and you believed him. Perception is real in its consequences.
16
Grayston has renewed my faith in New Yorkers after the 45th President's antics and shenanigans! This kind of humanitarian, common sense -- training and investing in the work force -- is what I expect from the major east coast state as a Californian (Los Angeles). Good job! God bless Grayston!
23
Since we already tried this with POTUS it seems!
4
This is great. Are they also hiring older candidates?
10
This is a great article and I can relate first hand. I have a 3rd degree felony (embezzlement) due to a substance abuse problem. I’ve been clean for over 4 years and can’t get a job to save my life. I’m just looking for a second chance. I have 15 years telecommunications experience and I have had over 50 offers in the past 4 years but every one of them fell through because of my background. I still have hope but it’s extremely hard near impossible even tried looking into different fields. Great article though.
74
Oh, this article made me feel good! Thanks for writing on the great work being done to help those who deserve a second chance.
78
This is interesting. Obviously as a teacher, I have to pass a background check. In Minnesota, I am also fingerprinted, and drug tested at the time of hire. This makes sense as teachers deal with vulnerable populations--minor students, and special education students etc.. It makes sense that pilots and bus drivers and nurses and so forth also pass drug and alcohol tests, and have background checks as they hold our actual lives in their hands. State licensing boards also serve to "weed out" those who are not fully committed or knowledgeable in their professions, when we expect real expertise: For example, Engineers better know their physics--we don't need buildings collapsing, or turbines that don't function, endangering many lives. BUT. I do concede there are SO many jobs out there that could do this! Some of my students are at such a disadvantage because they are having to work ridiculous numbers of hours at low wage jobs to help support families because one parent can't pass that background check--they, once upon a time, had a DUI, or went to the workhouse for unpaid tickets, or did a year or two in prison for a minor drug offense. Now--though so many places cannot find anyone to hire, these folks are immediately not considered employable for offenses that occurred ten or more years ago--nonviolent offenses, leaving them to work low wage or seasonal jobs at best. I am intrigued by the premise--let's worry about the future & train people.
24
Next, let's expand the employment of people with disabilities. the unemployment rate is staggering. Most accommodations, if necessary, are cheap.
And if the employee does a good job, promote her and find someone else to come in.
This stuff is what makes it a good job.
12
@Occupy Government
Indeed, a laudable goal. Trouble is finding someone to help one with the toilet.
Good for this business!
But I'd never do it. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
Or as Maya Angelou said: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
I learned this first hand 50+ years ago from my first job as an adolescent. I applied for a job in a grocery store. The owner said to come in Saturday at 9:00 and fill out an application. I did. There were 30 other boys there. He said he didn't have time to interview us that day, so come back next Saturday at 9:00. I did, along with five other boys. He said he didn't have time to interview us that day so come back next Saturday at 9:00 for an interview.
I was there along with one other boy. He didn't interview us. He said "put on an apron."
At age 16 I had no history, so through his cleverness, he allowed each of us to create one. Both the other boy and I worked there until we graduated from high school.
He was predicting future behavior from past behavior. Of course there are going to be exceptions, but people who create bad histories know they are doing this. It is an uphill climb if you do, but the answer isn't to expect people to "forget my past and give me another chance...I'll do better...I've reformed....honest."
10
@Travelers
Were the other boys lazy and less motivated to work or did the other boys show more initiative and go find work in the 2 weeks it took the guy to hire?
It was a good idea on his end to save some time, but its hard to say if he got the best 2 of the bunch, or the only 2 that didn't find other work.
33
@Travelers
Interesting tactic, but it seems more a test of current behavior than past behavior.
4
@Travelers
I've been hired and I've hired.
If a place of employment plays that kind of game, it's a red flag showing dysfunction and lack of respect for workers.
I'd be on to apply other places, which is what 25 boys
undoubtedly did.
7
As at least three posters have already mentioned, it would be nice if this model could be worked out for older workers, another population that faces discrimination in hiring practices. As an older job seeker trying to break into a new field. I have been regularly questioned about my age and turned down for new jobs for which I had all the training, skills and expertise.
Still another group that also routinely faces discrimination in hiring are the homeless. While some have issues with substance abuse, many are just on the streets because they cannot afford the ridiculous rents and mortgage payments on lower wage salaries. Heaven forbid if one is older, homeless, and has a crminal record.
36
Blind hiring is something that can work in a lot of situations, as long as the employer has the option to terminate the employee at will. Allowing someone to start work or a temporary or probational basis, and prove themselves, before looking at their background and criminal history, is fair and promotes the dignity and redemptive power of work.
I've done a version of this at my company for close to a decade now, and the results are decidedly mixed. It usually doesn't work out, but sometimes it does. And when it does, you might wind up with an extraordinarily dedicated employee who recognizes and appreciates that they've been given a second chance.
And no, there's no reason this can't work for older employees as well. I've got a couple of gentlemen working for me who are well past the age that most retire, and they're among the most reliable employees I've had. They're not the fastest, but they're consistent and come to work every day - which sets them apart in this labor market.
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I loved this article. NYT, more stories like this please!
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@Kate
There’s not that much good news in the world.
An arrest that didn't lead to a conviction is irrelevant to hiring. It should not be considered a "criminal record." We have a principle in this country that people are to be treated as innocent unless proven guilty.
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@Rob I agree that an arrest without conviction should not matter.
But if you pull an NCIC record it lists all arrests but not the outcomes. The skilled eye can use this information to obtain the conviction (as opposed to the arrest) record. But to the layman they all look like convictions.
If you state that the arrest did not result in a conviction frequently you are asked to bring in the court record showing this. And frequently such a record is not available. The charge could have been dismissed, you could have been exonerated, it could have been noll pros'ed, that felony murder charge on your sheet could have been reduced at trial to jaywalking (at the wrong time and place).
If these records are used to make life altering judgments on people they should be accurate. Not only should they show what the original charge is (and the police are known for wildly overcharging with whatever they can), but it should also show what the outcome was.
Not to mention, people do change. A string of armed robberies two years ago might be relevant. A pot bust forty years ago likely isn't, but still can be held against you.
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I love this hiring concept. It affirms a belief in humanity and guess what, background checks don't guarantee a great employee anyway. More businesses should adopt this model, especially with on the job training apprenticeships.
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Very thought-provoking. Thanks.
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This and Rebecca Solnit, below, are the two best articles I have read in 2019. (When I saw the fine print stating that Ms. Rosenberg had a Pulitzer Prize, I was nodding my head before I got to Prize.) The opportunity cost of finding what is supposedly wrong with people rather than what is right about them is staggering in both financial and human terms. A society that gives up on a troubled-through-no-fault-of-her-own minor is not a society in any recognizable sense of the word.
Whose country is this, anyways? Let's ask Rebecca Solnit:
https://lithub.com/rebecca-solnit-the-myth-of-real-america-just-wont-go-away/
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"I asked her if she worried that employees with criminal backgrounds would steal. “I think that’s silly,” she replied."
From the most recent comprehensive study in May 2018 on recidivism by the Bureau of Justice Statistics in the DOJ:
An estimated 68% of released prisoners were arrested within 3 years, 79% within 6 years, and 83% within 9 years.
Yeah - maybe not quite so 'silly'.
https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6266
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@SteveRR
Even when former inmates make an honest effort to stay out of the system, they're still walking around with a target on their back. Even more so if they are people of color. An immediate member of my family has been in and out of prison and correctional facilities for years. I have seen first-hand how these systems bank on repeat arrests and long-term incarceration. It has become very clear that true rehabilitation of inmates is not the goal, and the statistics you quote are proof of that.
Good on this bakery, and all other businesses like it, for giving opportunities to those with a record. I really wish more would take this step.
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@SteveRR This may be another chicken-and-egg problem. Do released prisoners re-offend because they despair at finding a place in society, driving them to illegal activities? Or are they just rotten? The Greystone business seems to believe the former is true. I suspect you believe the latter.
I'll just note that this business isn't a bank, it's a bakery. Greystone's approach is a good one in a business where there is little temptation to steal, aside from the occasional brownie.
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@SteveRR
Much of the "recidivism" we see is the result of people doing the same things that others in society do without repercussions -- like having a beer or smoking a joint. Or, for that matter, taking another drug on their own time. I'm thinking now of someone I met a few years back who had been out of prison and working a regular job but then on his day off took an opioid to dull the emotional pain of his girlfriend breaking up with him. A few days later he was drug tested randomly and sent back to prison for another 18 months. Perhaps you are one of the Americans who think it is right and good that we should imprison people for ingesting a substance many disapprove of and that disrupting his life and job and paying to keep him in a cage for over a year was a great response ... but I vehemently disagree. In any event, to see recidivism statistics and automatically assume they represent crimes that have victims is to completely misunderstand what those statistics actually represent.
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Dave's Killer Bread here in Oregon runs a similar program, getting many of their employees after a stay in prison, I'm a big believer and appreciate the opportunities they provide, my son works there and is so appreciative and doing great! http://www.daveskillerbread.com/secondchances#secondchances-slideshow
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Stunned the Koch's are involved (but glad to hear of it).
Ms. Rosenberg, I wish the NYT would devote half its front page (or the web equivalent) to your columns when they appear.
What a remarkable group of people, organizations, initiatives. May they have all the success they deserve.
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@AJ
I am someone who tends to be on the political left, as I suspect you are also. The Koch brothers are frequently demonized in the publications I read but I learned a number of years ago that they are, in fact, very active in and big donors to causes I support like ending the war on drugs. Yes, they are in the oil business and they also advocate for their business. I do personally find that much of the criticism directed to them is overblown and unfair and completely discounts all the good they do.
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@Nicholas
But aren't the Koch's involved in matters like gerrymandering? And appointing extremist judges up and down the corridor? I may be stretching, but if these are the wrong two examples, I know there are many other problematic ones that can be cited.
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A true pleasure to see this article about Greyston. I still remember the Greyston cookies someone brought to the Providence Zen Center in 1985, when I was living there... they were THAT delicious!!
It's worth noting that Bernie Glassman was also a co-founder of the Zen Peacemakers Order... everything is connected.
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Now if someone would just use this model for meaningful jobs for the huge population of persons marginalized because they’re 60 +. Having tried hard for over 10 years to find an employer who values my education, skills, and extensive highly rated experience, the best I can do is be a greeter at Walmart.
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60 ? Try 55 .
This business is great! We should all support them with our dollars. Folks with records (almost all related to substance abuse) need a second chance. If there are no jobs for them, they will return to illicit activities most probably, as they have to survive. It is even more important because of the Opioid Epidemic that we find a way to help those with addictions become productive members of society to aide in ongoing recovery.
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Thank you!
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That's nice.
Meanwhile, you want a job, but you're over 60? Get lost, grandpa.
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@K D P. Don't give up. I am 75 and was just hired for a good job in my field. I know exactly how lucky I am, but it can happen.
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@riley523 And again, you are the exception that proves the rule. Do you understand the meaning of despair? It's the constant rejection because of your age.
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@hen3ry To be sure I didn't get the number of interviews I used to when I was younger but I have just enough ego/arrogance that I refused to give in to dispair, so truly not to be flip, no I don't really understand dispair. I had almost accepted that I wouldn't get a job because of my age but I knew that if I HAD to make extra money, I could go to a fast food place or a grocery store, or something similar and do that. In my youth, I was a housekeeper and knew that was just as honerable a job and any out there. And I waited on tables in the summer when I was in college.
Is this just for non-violent criminals? Because honestly, a rapist or someone who attacks people is not really an ideal coworker.
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Same here. I have given up with interviews and references. I just let people work and let their effort sort it out. Much simpler and less headaches.
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Sort of makes you wonder how you can look your children and grandchildren in the eye and tell them to not do drugs, get an education, don't produce offspring until you are ready and able to support them, don't talk back to teachers or police, register to vote without complaining about the local rules. I mean, why bother? At this rate, following the rules of middle class society American good behavior will be an impediment to getting college admissions and job opportunities.
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@Mary so with your logic people who have records should be banished from society and not given a second chance? Got it.
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@Jessica that's the logic used by a great many people. Sad but true. And most of them have never had any problems with the law so they don't understand how things work.
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black people are in jail because of white supremacy. that's the beginning and end of it. nice manners has nothing to do with it. it's actually racist to assume otherwise. that there's some black pathology. there isn't.
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A laudable, as well as sensible and practical approach. In general, American businesses seem to me to spend far too much time looking for the “right” person, and far too little time in training, development, support, and retention. Besides making finding employees unnecessarily difficult, it also leads to a laziness about the business where even managers really don’t have to critically assess what it takes to do the work they need performing. If you can’t teach it, then you probably don’t know yourself.
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Too bad the same attitude isn't applied to older employees who have experience, knowledge, perspective, and bring that into the workplace. Many of us have records too. We worked hard to learn our professions or crafts. We put in extra hours to deliver. And we need jobs as badly as these people do.
Yes, I'm glad for them. Work is probably the one thing that can be a deterrent to returning to prison. It's also something that helps people feel useful. It's a shame that American employers have decided that anyone over the age of 50, regardless of their talents, experience, or ability isn't worth hiring.
5/29/2019 12:56pm
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@hen3ryit sounds from this article that the older people you are speaking of can apply for these jobs too.
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@hen3ry. I responded a little earlier to someone who feels the same. I am here to say that it's not necessarily so. I am 75 and just started a new job in my field and at a good salary. DON'T GIVE UP!!
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@riley523 do tell how. For most of us it’s been a long and exasperating struggle to even get in the door.
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Ms. Rosenberg -
Thanks for the great article!
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