You've got to be kidding me!
1
Many refugees are facing tremendous negative issues which is still going on because of not having available of jobs, foods, shelter, etc. I pray for those refugees who don't have a place to live in. Once they had a little enough to sleep in but now they do not even have that tiny space to just hide their life from any other bad events that their life can be at risk again. They went through a lot in their life already which why we as a human being should provide the needs that they are seeking for. What if we now were in the same situation as how they are right now? We should think about how much pain they have tolerated in their life already. We should provide them enough jobs opportunities so that they can be able to work and make money in order to help their own family with providing food for members and can educate their ownselves and provide education to their children. We have to help them as much as we can. If you help, you won't be in a debt but if you actually help people you would be rewarded after life death directly from God. Many refugess were immigrated to USA but that does not mean that we should kick them out again from here however we actually should accept them and give them all what we as a citizen of America is having. So I think all people as a matter of humanity, should be raised to assist refugess based on our wealth.
2
Here is one huge advantage of people coming to this country: where many native born citizens see discouragement, they see opportunity. They are ready to encounter obstacles and overcome them while many here shrug their shoulders and say, "It can't be done."
People born here excuse themselves from trying by saying things like, "I don't have a degree from an elite college", or "I don't have a college degree." It is true that many companies place roadblocks in front of those who have not had a smooth path in life, therefore it is more important than ever to find your own way and make your own opportunity.
I have been picking up small signs for years that native born Americans, especially in the less populated parts of the country, are losing what has been America's great strength since our founding, the strong work ethic. Many people between the ages of 25 and 45 appear to have decided they can skate through life with occasional jobs and constant excuses. ("Sure, I can take a job but not until deer season is over."
Foreign born people, particularly from India, now own a vast number of small motels, perhaps even a majority. They often run them as a family affair, putting of couple of generations to work and housing them on site. In Bedford, Pa., we saw an entire Asian family out on an afternoon re-coating the parking lot. Some foreign groups also have loan societies to provide cash to get started.
We have much to learn from new, eager and hard working residents.
13
“Why are we capping the legal point of entry unless we can’t handle them, and no one is saying we can’t handle them?” Mr. Picente said.
Why indeed....
3
Population decline is environmentally healthy, we just need to learn to navigate its logistical challenges.
5
As someone who used to live in upstate NY, I found this article to be very misleading. The worst part of it is that Goldfarb talks about the cities as though they are metropolitan areas. They are not. They are just parts of metro areas. I used to live in the Rochester area (Monroe County), so let me discuss it.
The city of Rochester has lost over a third of its population since 1950, with declines every decade. Most of the people Relocated to other towns in the metro area. Monroe county, of which Rochester is part, has grown over a third, and Rochester is only about 30% of the county population today. The population ex city of Rochester has more than tripled during that time. So the metro area is not being hollowed out. Some parts are to be sure.
Why has the city declined? Three reasons: loss of jobs, high crime rates, and lousy schools. The job loss was mainly due to large companies being in industries that have declined; Kodak, Xerox, and B&L. Technology change, not high costs of living. Crime is also much higher in the city, particularly violent crime. Who wants to live with that if you have enough money to move? Finally there are the schools. Absenteeism is terrible. Chronic absenteeism, >10% of the days, averages more than a third of the kids, and one big high school is 50%. How can one learn if you are absent 18 days or more? They don’t. Only 50% graduate in the city, and most of those are not college ready. That is why immigrants will move when they have the money.
11
This is not something that New York just figure out. Cities like Buffalo and Utica have been welcoming immigrants for years - and doing what it takes to attract them to their respective cities and regions. Immigrants have saved Utica from a slow death.
New York City and New York State have always been proud to be gateway cities. You can see the rich tapestry that is New York by looking at all the church steeples in any of these cities.
And, incidentally,upstate IS beautiful, Outer Borough. And the level of “lazy ideas, corruption and cronyism “ pales next the Big Apple. Your subways, your incredibly segregated schools, instituting a fee set by the subway cronies to drive in Manhattan.” Give me a break!
3
Why aren't homeless people in New York City (and in other locations) offered the same deal as foreign refugees?
15
@sguknw
A very good, complicated question.
5
if the city really is desperate for residents, then they should have embraced the Amazon deal.
Or ... do you mean Ms Goldbaum that they have come to see how foolish they were?
2
@c New York is in a position where it does not have to choose between supporting unions with benefits and attracting workers from out of state. It is not a zero sum game, and in fact the former (a good work culture) supports the latter (bringing in good workers). The jobs are here already, so we need not be desperate.
There is also difference between New York City and other parts of the state, which need more attention and support. New York City itself is flourishing.
3
Desperate for people? Really ? Says who ? People that don't live in New York. I don't want anymore people living in NYC whether they are immigrants or citizens. The city is overpopulated already. Having more people living on top of each other is going to put money in my pocket or raise my quality of life in anyway so why want more people living here?
2
If a city or other local jurisdiction thinks it needs more people,
it can try to entice its own residents to stay,
instead of leaving,
and to entice its own residents to have more children of their own,
and it can try recruit people from elsewhere in the USA --
either Americans or foreigners with green cards or other visas with legal authorization for residence in the USA.
But cities and states are not entitled to decide
that more foreigners are entitled to come into the USA,
nor that foreigners who are here illegally
are entitled to legal status.
That is a decision for the people of the USA,
acting jointly, through their representatives in Congress.
11
@sam finn
Utter failure by the powers that be when their policies drive away their very citizens.....
Utterly oerverse when they think the solution is to bring in foreigners......
Heard tgat it is all a numbers game.....CA loses130k net of population yearly which reduces its representation/funding in/by the Federal Gov.......solution, sanctuary state........
2
Ever since the mid-1970's the fertility rate in the USA has been below replacement. This means were it not for immigrants, the US population would be shrinking. This on top of migration within the US to warmer climates, upstate NY has experienced severe migration out of the region. If refugee folks find these communities to there liking it's good for them and for the country!
5
I can’t help but notice that many of these areas mentioned are in rural Trumpland (especially Wyoming) and they wonder why they are struggling to hold on to young adults and their families. Has it ever occurred to these hardcore red states that young adults actually value things that the GOP despises: Good public schools, clean environments, good infrastructure including parks, libraries, ballet, symphony halls etc. And maybe young adults would prefer to live in places where their non-white and LGBTQ friends feel welcomed and their health insurance isn’t under constant threat. I mean, just food for thought.
20
So people had to leave their hometowns, often due to lack of jobs there, and now that jobs are coming back, the plan is to bring refugees in from other countries because they will work for less? Either that or the people from those areas are deemed to be so reprehensible and drug addled, they should be written off entirely.
Did anyone bother asking the people who live in these areas whether they thought this was a good idea? I'm guessing the assumption is that they're ignorant, evil racists, so their concerns should be ignored anyway. What better way is there to dilute the political power of Trump voters than to fill their areas with refugees?
At this rate, this country is headed for an ugly civil war that will make the first one look like a picnic...
10
Another "resident" operating in urban centers that needs immigrants....the Roman Catholic churches. They are starving for congregants and the RCC already has its tendrils deep in South American worshipers, and their churches in Urban America are a first stop for aid and general assistance for immigrants...
White flight has been reducing their congregant base for decades and although their children, grand kids might be returning to urban centers from suburbia, etc, they are non committals to Religious worship...
1
@Boregard
The sexual abuse scandals in the RCC are an indication of its perversity and corruption......
3
I'd give serious thought to living somewhere like Central PA or upstate NY if only the jobs were there. SF might be easy on the eyes with its views and nice weather, but I'll never be able to own a piece of it.
6
Great article!
4
We in Syracuse proper despair the white flight to many close suburbs that has happened and is still happening. We are left with a weaker tax base, more once-beautiful homes with no one who can afford to keep them up, a downtown that is no longer the center of commerce, parks where lighting is gone and no one ventures at night. Our schools work very hard, with extremely dedicated teachers, to counter the idea that city schools are no longer leaders.
Refugees are very welcome here. They like it here and they are finding communities within communities were they are safe, have needed early supports, value education enormously and make our city stronger by the day.
It has given us hope. Long may immigration continue.
20
Reagan's 'Shining City on the Hill ' . How on Earth was Trump ever given the Chair of men like Washington, Lincoln, FDR and Reagan?
7
@Pat Richards
Thanks to the electoral college of America, attributes such as honesty, hard work and a love for public service are no longer a pre-requisite, but instead the ‘end’ justifies the means.
Mostly through greed, dishonesty and self-serving practices.
7
Too many people haven't read this article carefully. No where did this article say that American-born people are being denied opportunities offered to refugees. You wanna move to Buffalo and get a job? They'd be happy to have you. The cities just want people to move there. Any people. It's just that refugees are an group to focus on, because they often have no where else to go, or at least are eager to start a life somewhere in the US that feels welcoming. Feel excluded? Go join them!
32
This is the "refugee industrial complex" - the parasites, leeches, and social service agencies (but I repeat myself) that take in billions from the gubmint to "place refugees". The issue is not the refugees. The issue is the subsidies, payments, and other largess that comes with them. When my grandma's family came in the 1920s, there was no infrastructure to support them. They made lots of mistakes, and survived, somehow. Today, my taxes support the importation of millions of refugees, some of whom compete with those I know for jobs and housing.
18
Sadly, this is the American way. Most small northern towns empty out as residents make their way to bigger and prosperous cities down south.
Even a city like St. Louis has struggled to retain residents for decades now. The city could barely sustain itself let alone an NFL franchise (that ended up moving back to LA).
Apart from MO, the only people willing to move to the cold, northern states are refugees from elsewhere for low-paying jobs.
Nobody from the southern states wants to move up north to a colder climate, congested roads and a low-paying job. Of course, places like Boston, Chicago and NYC are a different story. There’s no shortage of people there from across the US or the entire world for that matter.
These refugees are only taking up jobs that no American-born citizen wants, least of all white Americans from the south.
Those concerned about immigration should ask their governors and their ‘Saviour-in-Chief’ about all those supposed ‘tax cuts’ for the masses.
Or was that all just another big ruse to hoodwink the ‘red state’ dwellers?
The ‘real winners’ being fellow ‘billionaires’ and real-state developers, not avg. Jane or Joe, as always, despite what Fox & Friends would have you believe.
Wake up, America...before it’s too late!
8
The “average Jane and Joe” wouldn’t have left in the first place if their jobs had not been “outsourced/globalized”.
The average Jane and Joe are longing for decent jobs (no bead / or ramen stores!) where they can actually produce useful parts or products for small and large industries, maybe get trained for these jobs and recover their self-esteem and confidence in the future.
9
"Come to New York State and pay some of the highest taxes anywhere."
What a deal.
12
Wow, I find this article amazing. For the last 2 years 50,000 illegal refugees have crossed from New York into Quebec. Most head to Montreal and Toronto. Why are New York officials allowing this to happen if things are so dire in their state? Wake up New York because Toronto is drowning with you refugees.
3
@Don M The refugees you are thinking of are actually fleeing the U.S.
1
@Peter Piper So, make these people feel welcome. Tell them they are safe to live and work in New York because they are needed. They shouldn't be a burden on Canada because they don't feel safe in the U.S.
3
“Why are we capping the legal point of entry unless we can’t handle them, and no one is saying we can’t handle them?” Mr. Picente said."
As I recall, not too long ago, our dimwitted and nasty president did declare that "we are full up." (He might say he was only referring to a "select" group of people but clearly his/Miller's policies pertain to all "others.").
6
Upstate New York always welcomed the new wave of refugee immigrants with open arms since they began coming here in recent decades. We have never had the cultural issues that some other smaller cities around the U.S. have had dealing with the influx. In old days it was Polish, Irish, German, Ukrainian... then it was Sudanese, Somali, Bosnian, Bhutanese... what's the difference? Yes, we want them. And while we're at it, let's make things better for the Latino farm workers who are cowering on our farms in fear of ICE raids.
19
This is a temporary solution at best. As with every immigrant group, the second and third generations will abandon the less prosperous town for the more prosperous town. In my case, my ancestors left the tenements of Manhattan for the suburbs. Now I've come back because that's where work is and the commute oh so much easier. Our leaders, both business and political should be working on reinvigorating these small towns so they provide people a middle class existence. NYC already has too many 50+ story buildings and it's getting to the point it's impossible to get around. It would be great if towns in Upstate NY could provide opportunities for a middle class life.
15
Could NYC try recruiting residents from West Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio, and Tennessee?
Or would that, you know, bring down the "tone" of the Big Apple?
4
@Frank Ambitious and talented people from those states come here all the time.
8
Notice that these Cities want international refugees instead of MAGA followers.
Hmmm. So all of these Trump supporters hating on the refugees at the Southern Border should move to these New York cities that need people, right, and find jobs and opportunities there.
4
@Ann They are likely gainfully employed where they are, and I'm guessing they don't have to deal with the state tax burden. You should ask yourself, why are so many from Illinois, California and New York leaving these states for Texas and Florida. One hint, it's not the warm weather.
5
Abdiwahab Awayle, a refugee is a fine example of success, he can afford to take a minimum wage job and move to a depressed city; as a refugee, he and his wife and FIVE kids get all the social services that the average American working stiff would never qualify for; he has hit the American lottery that only illegal immigrants and refugees qualify for: Free everything forever.
16
@JRS Exactly.
6
Other than nostalgia, there is no purpose in 'saving' most of the dying cities across America.
Automation is replacing most of the jobs of the past and boredom is driving the young away. It has been more than a century since "How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm?" was a hit tune.
8
To me, this seems like win-win. Our southern border cities are overwhelmed by large numbers of refugees they lack the resources to safely accommodate. In other locations, there are cities that would welcome the labor refugees can provide, for industry and for agriculture, and other cities that openly and willingly call themselves "sanctuary" cities.
So why not relocate many of these people from the border, to cities where there is work for them? Yet, when this was proposed a month ago, Democratic politicians screamed bloody murder, with Ed Markey tweeting “Trump’s plan to release migrants into ‘enemy’ cities as if they are some kind of contagion is reprehensible”. According to the Washington Post, Nancy Pelosi's office stated “The extent of this administration’s cynicism and cruelty cannot be overstated ….Using human beings — including little children — as pawns in their warped game to perpetuate fear and demonize immigrants is despicable.” Many in the liberal press also cried in outrage, accusing the administration of weaponizing desperate immigrants.
An important goal should be to do this legally. From what is presented in this article, a bipartisan approach would allow this country to establish a legal framework to productively accommodate many more refugees and economic migrants than we now do.
It's long past time for both sides, and the media, to tone down the rhetoric and work out a solution.
1
@Alex
What about the huge and growing income/wealth inequality gap... using refugees/immigrants to keep wages low is unethical... but this is the US
7
I just spent a month in Alva, OK and man, do they need refugees. Huge town square surrounded by empty 70’s storefronts, no decent restaurants and none even open past 9pm, tons of empty houses, barely anywhere to buy fresh produce. Even the university there is having a major enrollment shortage. The local oil industry is the lifeblood of the area but that of course has a finite lifespan. What a great thing it would be to bring in some highly motivated, hard working refugees and their families.
10
How far is it from Buffalo NY to Hamilton ON? it might only be 74 miles but the distance might as well be measured in light years. It didn't use to be this way. a half-century ago the two almost identical cultures took widely divergent paths. The two areas have almost the same culture and economic development, but 1 in 4 Canadians chooses to live in the Ontario's Golden Horseshoe, while next door in New York, people can't leave fast enough. What is wrong with this country?
11
We must differentiate between legal and illegal. We need immigrants who will become taxpayers not encouraging a parallel under ground economy as we do now. Legal above ground contractors who pay well don't have a chance to compete around here and young folks cant get footholds in the work force where illegals abound.
14
Please stop repeating the myth that immigrants take away jobs from Americans. Will you harvest sugar cane, pick strawberries, clean toilets and make beds (other than your own... ;-),etc. for poverty wages? No. The reality the Trumpeteers fail to address is that Americans won’t take certain jobs or substandard wages, so employers look to “illegals” to do the work. It also makes everything that depends on “illegal” labor to produce affordable for the rest of us.
7
@Lane It's hard to complain about people being illegal when you don't given them the chance to apply to become a resident.
6
The entire reason for New York’s cultural vibrancy is its [often begrudging] acceptance of the unfamiliar.
Integration brings people into the fold, while assimilation subjugates people with homogenized, and arbitrary, societal restraints.
And just for the record, the Statue of Liberty was made to resemble a black woman. It’s just covered in rust.
5
Eventually Angela Merkel will be recognized
as a savior of Germany for admitting
a million refugees.
13
Recently a relevant article in another newspaper noted that all indications point that Angela Merkel's gamble on aceppting 1 million plus Syrian refugees is paying off to German economy and society.
11
@TS Actually Asylum in Germany is generally not permanent. You only get asylum until conditions improve in your home country.
2
There's a game I'll play in my off hours: I go onto real estate websites and look at homes for sale in older eastern cities like Buffalo, Rochester, ot Syracuse. I see homes which would sell for close to millions of dollars in the San Francisco Bay Area, selling for a fraction of that amount. Sometimes I daydream about leaving all of California's frustrations behind and resettling back east.
Unlike most Californians, I've experienced eastern winters. It's not the ice and snow which keeps me away. Rather, it is the prospect of re-establishing a career in these places with little or no support network that keeps me from taking a chance on somewhere like upstate New York.
I'm not a nationalist by any stretch of the imagination, but it strikes me that there is something New York State could do to lure native born American citizens to these places. There are many talented, highly educated graduates of professional schools who are saddled with student loan debt. Why not offer some sort of subsidy for those who relocate?
There are artists and creative professionals who are being chased out of traditional "creative" hubs like San Francisco, Portland OR, and Austin by rising rents. Why not start a grant program for those willing to set up studios in empty storefronts and factory spaces?
Talking about "high tech jobs" is an easy way to win press. But there are plenty of people outside of tech who might be willing to invest in upstate New York, if New York were willing invest in them.
33
I live in Buffalo and I grew up in/around NYC. There is no question in anyone's mind here in Buffalo that immigrants and refugees are a lifeline. The entire west side of the side has been rejuvenated and the east side is starting to pick up as well. There are plenty of jobs - the unemployment rate is under 5% and we need workers. As for why would anyone want to move to upstate NY, well, the people are friendly, the services are excellent, the schools are terrific, and the cost of living is reasonable. Sure, we pay taxes, but we get a lot for them, and when you add everything up, I have found the cost of living to be exactly the same as when we lived in the mid-South.
29
@D
Was it different in that part of NY when Kodak was still in business? I feel like Rochester (not Buffalo) was a big hub in the 70's and 80's due to Kodak. Buffalo was once big enough to support NFL and NHL teams. Felix Under (ODD Couple) was from Buffalo. Or his brother lived there. My point is that Buffalo was mentioned on a hit TV show (but didn't take place there).
Has Toronto's growth had some effect? Toronto is now considered the seventh best city in North America (NYC, LA, SF, Chicago, Boston, Miami, Vancouver, Toronto). It might even challenge Boston, Miami, and Vancouver.
Comparisons between the NYC metro area and upstate NY cities are apples to oranges. Upstate NY's economy is largely declining rust belt and low productivity agriculture, it's economic slide is at least 50 years old. NYC metro area economy is high productivity knowledge industries and it's burgeoning.
Additionally, upstate NY is marked by bitterly cold winters whereas the NYC metro area's winters, while still cold, are ameliorated by the nearby ocean.
Upstate NY is unquestionably a place of aching physical beauty and in some instances this can be monetized via tourism - Finger Lakes area for example.
But all in all, sad as it is, I doubt upstate NY will ever recover its former glory.
5
Of course NY cities are desperate for people. NY, NJ and CA (to name three states) are so horrid to live in that many more people move out every year than move in. Refugees are desperate, too, and are happy to fill the void, at least until they can also move out. A match made in heaven?
15
I’m confused. Didn’t the President say that the US is full?
16
For the last fifty years the economic policies of both the U.S. and of New York State have done a great deal to destroy the upstate economy which in turn has led much of the native born population to flee the state. For example the state democratic party's anti-fracking policies killed what could have been ten of thousands of high paying blue collar jobs in the area. With poor job prospects, the native born blue collar work force is forced to leave the state that has been home to their families for several generations.
So with a dwindling population we now have upstate communities scrambling to find someone, anyone to move into the area. As a result, we have your story about refugees eagerly welcomed in upstate towns and cities. It's almost as if the far right conspiracy theorists who talk about the native born population being replaced by immigrants and refugees might be on to something.
9
@mfgordon2
Fracking offers short term huge gains to a narrow population segment, and irreversibly destroys clean water at its sources, ultimately bringing permanent ruin to entire communities. NY State's water supply is the envy of half the globe, in an era when many parts of the world are turning into parched desert. There are better examples of how the State has hurt itself, including its massive debt load and unfunded pension liabilities, but saying no to fracking is not one of them.
16
Politicians have seen the slow bleed from wonderful, beautiful upstate NY for decades. Cronyism, corruption and high costs accelerated the decline. What a lack of imagination. What a failure of leadership and lazy ideas.
Enticing immigrants is at least an idea to pump new life. Now leaders need to get creative and learn how to grow sustainable businesses there. They need to resist building beautiful fire houses, police stations and government buildings and focus on an integrated plan to attract commercially viable enterprise.
68
@Outer Borough I don't disagree conceptually as long as you are still talking about policies to attract those businesses and not the leaders actually building them.
The notion that this is new is ludicrous. Upstate NY has looked the same since the 50's, but with some ups and downs along the way in various cities. Many of the people who are said to be complaining about small town losses and lack of industry also complain about "big government" and/or "too much taking care of individuals they view as lazy." So while *others* are lazy some of these folks are looking for government to solve all their problems. They aren't always looking to themselves to build, retrain, re-educate and innovate in their own communities.
3
@Outer Borough
You forget the Gentrification of those Upstate places. Kingston, Rhinebeck, small townships along the Hudson, 2-3, maybe 4 hours north/west of NYC, LI...
@child of babe
Much of the rust belt and midwest is similar to upstate NY.
Many of the towns in these places were developed by "boosterism." by railroads, by religious groups, but mostly by the government. The decline was exacerbated by the Reagan Administration, when it becme more feasable to break up companies than to invest and maintain them.
Miami, where I live, has been and is developed by foreigners. The money flows in in large part from E visas. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employment/treaty-trader-investor-visa-e.html
5
Yes, taxes in New York are high.However, maybe taxes in Florida are to low. Look at shortage of Florida teachers in 2019, right now. One reason may be Florida is 42nd in pay. Remember the teacher strikes around the nation? Where is the money coming from to pay teachers? Taxes?
And all those terrible rules, regulations, restrictions NY imposes has cleaned up our great Hudson River. How's Florida's habitat doing? Miami sinking? Everglades drying up? Will it cost dollars to fix or re-mediate these problems? Can you say taxes, rules, regulations?
Saw the kids in Brooklyn yesterday. Cranes everywhere, Buildings rehabbed and repurposed. Yes, expensive to live in NYC and burbs. Taxes are a problem. Insurmountably? No. Workers will follow and move to where the jobs, amenities, culture , schools exist. And it's not just the young but catch the article in Times where oldsters downsizing to move to NYC, too.
Eventually states with low taxes will need to raise them. The needs of an older population- yes, Florida, all those retirement people will cost money, services, facilities. You'll have to pay money to pay to attract workers from skilled educators to lunch room ladies, medical personnel from orderlies to gerontologists, and thousands of workers to protect the environment. The few thousand workers New York hopes to attract to stabilize an aging cities will be a pimple on an elephant's rear. And you'll have to raise taxes to do it.
113
@Sly4Alan Another reason people stay in higher taxed states is that they have better schools. Google Student Achievement by state and you will see blue states at the top (Massachusetts is consistently number one) and red at the bottom. You can have it.
68
“Another reason people stay in higher taxed states is that they have better schools.”
Not necessarily. Look at California, high taxes and ranked near the bottom in quality of public schools.
30
@BDM
Ok, but one point doesn't negate the overall trend.
6
It’s a common misperception that Buffalo has “lost” 1/2 of its population since its highest measured in the 1950s, a figure that sounds catastrophic. It is true that the City of Buffalo, a municipality in the Buffalo-Niagara combined statistic area (part of the metropolitan area), has lost nearly half of its population, but that is due primarily to the same migration to suburbs that has affected other US cities. In fact, the metro area has declined from a high of 1.3 million in 1970 to 1.1 million today. If sprawl is counted and other counties are included, there is no net loss at all. While this paints a different picture, it is not good news because unplanned sprawl without growth only adds cost without improving services. Adding new residents to the urban core - the result of refugee placement and immigration reported here but also growing reverse migration - is a very positive development that has slowed, if not stopped, the city’s losses.
83
I see many complaints about refugees not assimilating, taking our jobs, not speaking english in this comment section...Well hello..I remember the wonderful polish..irish..italian..greek neighborhood where my mom grew up in Massachusetts. My great grandma only spoke Polish..My grandmother had a 6th grade education and worked the mills..Jimmy the Greek. (as my grandmother adoringly called the butcher and shop owner next door) was the nicest of men giving us free candy and supplying some poorer residents with free food in time of need.. You could hear many different languages on the streets..Guess what people? the following generations have assimilated.
176
@greg toczko
Agree completely, and also grew up in a diverse area of Massachusetts that drew Italians, Greeks, Eastern European Jews and Armenians to its towns to work in shoe and fabric manufacturing. Face it: refugees renew the economy and making pretend this is not the case is just irresponsible/ blind/ bigoted.
40
@greg toczko
Yes, but they (and my German parents) came here legally to become citizens. NOT for freebies which is the only reason why the current shoveling into our once will continue in our once proud country
20
@Janet Miller Yeah right. Because we've never, ever given anything away to immigrants in order to entice them to settle in a given area:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rush_of_1889
26
Although I applaud the efforts to secure employment for those refugees that settle in upstate cites, I am appalled at the disregard for those residents who reside in those very cities. It is also disingenuous to the residents who fled these cities because of poor job prospects only to offer incoming refugees that opportunity.
Is the bottom line, just that? Incoming refugees will work for less wages and no benefits? Does the current employer offer the same securities as the employer since who shut down and moved out of state? When I travel to the upstate cities; Buffalo, Utica and Syracuse, poverty is apparent in some areas. Why not employ/train for employment those residents who can contribute to the city in which they live?
173
@LBQNY. I would suspect that the refugees are far better workers than the locals who could have these jobs, but for some reason do not - drug addiction, disability, childcare constraints, etc.
31
@Paul Right, then fix that. We don't need more people, we need to help the ones who were born here.
32
@LBQNY
I have read many articles about the most prevalent reason for such local residents not being employed - they can't pass drug tests.
38
After living on Long Island for over fifty years, I retired and moved to Rochester in 2003. That's right, I retired to upstate New York. We bought a beautiful big old house in a great neighborhood, beside plenty of terrific people who have become dear friends. And guess what? Many of them are immigrants who came here for a better life. By and large, they are hard working, lovely people who want the same things everyone wants: a clean, safe home and a chance for a better future. We reach out to everyone who comes here and we have not been disappointed.
To all the folks who complain about the taxes, after I stop laughing, I ask, do you have any idea what a place like Rochester looks like tax-wise compared to Long Island? I do. I love living here and I love living in New York. And no matter where you've come from, whether it's downstate or half way around the world, you're welcome here.
269
@K M you hit upon the best kept secret in America. If you're already retired and have a steady, guaranteed monthly income, upstate NY is the best place to retire. Beautiful houses are inexpensive, taxes are low and the quality of life is high. Good food, great free or low cost entertainment, museums, galleries, tons of colleges and universities to enroll in....the list goes on and on. To heck with the snow! You can always snowbird for a month or two. Great hospitals are always nearby, and NYC is either a bus or train ride away.
People think its cheaper to retire from NY and move to Florida. They may have no income tax there BUT they have every other tax you can think of. Florida nicles and dimes you to death. And if you settle in a gated community with HOA fees, I pity the fool. That HOA will ALWAYS be in your pocket.
Nope. upstate in the place for me. Been here from Long Island since 2001, retired happily and have never looked back. I LOVE NY. Cuomo has poured billions into our state parks, hiking trails, camping grounds, lakes, streams, waterfalls....yup. Best kept secret in the world!
97
@Cindy
You and I are in sync, Cindy. My wife loves waterfalls. I had no idea how many beautiful falls there were here. I'll take the mountains and farms and lakes and wide open country over anything the southland has to offer. Food? It's crazy how much great food is available here. The cost of living is truly reasonable, the healthcare exceptional and, for retirees, New York State EPIC is a godsend. The roads are great, and they deal with the snow very well. It's a small price to pay for the change of seasons. One day trip through the Finger Lakes in October makes it all worth while.
38
@K M
And all of this is true for Western Massachusetts as well. Retiring here from the Boston area is a wonderful thing.
23
Great article.
Unfortunately, what the article fails to mention is that many cities and towns experiencing an increase of expats are not always welcoming to brown and black immigrants. Resistance to newcomers is usually in cities and communities which were historically [predominantly] white, protestant.
There are residents who live in small towns in Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire [places mentioned in this article] who would be quick to grab their MAGA hats if too many immigrants "infiltrated" their neighborhoods.
Let's remember. In 2016, Trump won 47.25% of voters in New Hampshire, 44.87% in Maine. Vermont voters were less careless. Still, I doubt an immigrant from Mogadishu would be warmly greeted by a next door neighbor in a small town near Stowe.
9
I grew up in small town western NY state, where I did my undergrad at a rural SUNY. I did my grad work at SUNY Buffalo. I loved living in Buffalo, it’s actually a really hip city with great nightlife, and livability. I would go back in a heartbeat to live if I could, but I’m an academic, and you can’t always choose your city.
I’m glad I can still go back for visits to see family and friends. And to wish Buffalo sports some luck, they need it. The city is great, and welcoming immigrants is smart, Godspeed Buffalo.
6
This is absurd. Why aren't these cities focusing on making their cities more desirable for Americans in general? I
12
@Ed
Agreed: When I see a quote like,“Now when we look at adding a new location, our biggest consideration is — can we find the people to fill the jobs?” Mr. Carubba said. “The answer is often no.”
The question to be asked, to put this in context: Mr. Carubba: What do you pay your employees?
8
@Ed Should they pass a law banning winter?
Would that help?
So sad that a deranged, twittering President's policies hurt refugees, immigrants, native and natural born Americans and our cities and towns. The current policies are bad on so many levels and good in absolutely no way. Hoping we can limp along until 12021.
1
@Pat
So happy the President is attempting to redress years of job loss to cheap labor. I hope the Democrats find the courage to become the party of US labor, once again.
9
I recall articles and studies over the years detailing how immigrants and undocumented residents contributed to their local communities. I recall stories of communities lamenting the error of their ways of using extralegal and legal and just downright nasty efforts to drive out hardworking people – and then discovering how much they shot themselves in the foot because of the negative impact the local economy. Same ol story: When bigots boogaloo, we all can suffer.
2
300 years ago we call importing cheap labor indentured servitude. The time and name have changed but the dirty work have not. Promise poor and destitute people the world and have them sign with a thumbprint. Bring them here and bind them to the land with minimal wage so they cannot leave. Voila, cheap labor forever.
8
@AmateurHistorian
Agreed: Hiring migrant labor allows an employer to pay less than living wage, without benefits, and--depending on the industry--disregard workplace safety requirements. A fig leaf for exploitive behavior, eh ...? That's the story you don't--or won't-- cover, NYT: The unscrupulous employer, and the impact on US labor. Not as sensational as another installment in the immigrant saga, but the story behind Donald Trump's 2016 victory.
7
This is the future. Just as New York City was rejuvenated by incoming Irish and Italian, upstate cities are given new life by immigrants. The only thing that stops this from becoming widespread are the actions of a xenophobic racist and his enabling elected officials. Shame on them and the rest of us if we allow this to continue. Enable legal immigration. The country is absolutely big enough for more people who want to work hard, just like the Irish, Italian and German immigrants of the 20th century.
5
Why aren’t hardworking, productive immigrants and refugees being welcomed to the US.?Trump and his enabler Steven Miller hate legal immigrants as much as illegal ones. Or they think it’s good politics to act like it. They don’t tell us the “dirty” little secret that the flow of migrants from Mexico to the US has been declining for years.
The upstate cities have apparently focused specifically on refugees. Other cities, such as Philadelphia, have worked to recruit immigrants who have maintained otherwise declining neighborhoods. If these cities suffer severe decline because Trumpian xenophobia chokes off new residents, it will not only cause much human misery, but also cost taxpayers a lot of money. But Trump and the Republicans don’t really care about the finances, they just want to stoke the hate.
2
New York politicians have been stealing, wasting or buying votes with our money for years. Our ROI is pitiful as it is, yet people want to reduce it further by adding populations do/or increasing taxes. You have to wonder what people are thinking about.
7
Sure, let's invite the whole of Central America , sub saharan Africa and South Asia to upstate NY.
Sounds like a well thought out plan plus very Woke.
Have any of these politicos in NY heard of and considered a tiny little place called the "Rust belt" in a country called USA?
11
@GANDER-FIR Upstate New York is very much in the rust belt.
3
Would businesses rather hire a displaced refugee or someone trying to escape the violence South Chicago?
9
@Midwest Josh
I hope, hope, hope ... the answer is the latter.
3
Absolutely pathetic. There's a reason no one wants to live in these places, not least of all is the weather where this belt receives less sunshine than any place in the country. Reminds me of attempts to settle Siberia by the Soviet Union, only they "asked" less politely. People with sense would rather live under a bridge or bus-stop awning in Phoenix than here and who can blame them?
5
Immigrants have lower living standards demands, and a lot of times, work minimum wage jobs even if they are better educated than locals.
I see a lot of racism in the comments.
3
The homeless of NYC would love job placement and housing services too.
14
@MC Astoria
Spot on.
6
The USA callously dumps those refugees into the mean streets of our deplorable inner cities where they are easy prey by the local hoodlums and live in junky slum buildings! Sickening way to welcome them to our country...
2
@Moe - Well, we do have actual citizens living on the streets here, in some cases, veterans who have served our country ...
6
We have tons of mall space all over America that has been vacated due to the sharp rise in online shopping. These brick and mortar stores are well positioned in the suburbs w/ plenty of open space and infrastructure to house small manufacturing. Let's begin MAKING things again. China has taken advantage of us for decades. Its time we cut back on importing Chinese goods and begin making more consumer goods at home.
21
To clear up a misconception by some respondents: If you establish a residence in any of these towns/cities by buying a home, or set up a storefront or manufacturing business, YOU PAY TAXES just like anyone else. Localities welcome the tax revenue because it's preferable to having abandoned homes and empty storefronts.
Another interesting trend if an influx of "immigrants" - Amish people - from Ohio and Pennsylvania, who pay cash for abandoned or neglected farm properties, restore them, and convert them to active farms, selling meat, produce, and dairy products to the local community. The Amsih people are helping many small hamlets and villages keep their footing in Jefferson and St. Lawrence counties.
14
Great article! Maybe now that Trump doesn't want us trading with the Chinese, these refugees can be hired to manufacture the things we would otherwise buy from China. Meanwhile, they could be paying Social Security & Medicare taxes.
11
@Accordion
Or, maybe Americans can be hired to manufacture things we would otherwise buy from China. (I think that's the President's intent.)
7
@Mature Market
Maybe both? We import a lot of stuff from China. Plenty of possibilities, if manufacturing comes home to this country.
2
Meanwhile the formerly somnolent and family-friendly small city near the US-Mexico border where I live, is experiencing an overwhelming influx of retirees from Northern states. Pricing us out of housing. Hogging the healthcare. Clogging the roads. Changing the culture. Because to them, the cost of living here is low—which I suppose it is if you have a nice pension. To try to live well on a local salary is difficult.
We have “growth”. But is it the “right” kind?
It’s another side of the same economic-refugee-globalization-run-amok coin. People moving both to and from these Northern cities... pluses and minuses.
14
Happy to have read the glowing report of immigrants rebuilding Buffalo, NY. I was there during much of that period, and the growth was astonishing and transforming. I am proud to have been an English teacher during the early 90s, serving many from Yemen, Sudan, China, Eritrea, etc.
After living a few years in New Orleans, I returned to Buffalo (following Hurricane Katrina) and had the great privilege of living in a West Side block that boasted 17 nationalities. Grant St was being redeveloped and women in all manner of burka and hijab shopped there. The East Side was transformed into a vibrant area accepting of all. Closed Catholic churches were being sold and converted to mosques. (Buffalo/Lackawanna were, at one time, the most heavily Catholic region of the country)
This is the reason Buffalo is recognized as one of the most liberal cities in America. It was rebuilt by people from "all over the world" who appreciated the opportunities to contribute their time and talents. I miss Buffalo as it is today, but I have family there, whom I regularly visit.
21
@ultimateliberal has it right!
7
to reverse the population and economic decline in upstate NY all that would have to be done would be to allow fracking, but Cuomo and the anti-fractivists won't allow that. In contrast Pennsylvania has seen the equivalent areas increase in population and economic activity due to fracking. The sky-is-falling predictions of the anti-fractivists never came to pass. This article ignores that elephant in the room.
4
@aidan downey, can you back up your claim with hard numbers? Have you ever lived in this area?
Many upstate PA towns are aging out and watching their residential tax base erode as younger people depart for cities and metro areas with greater job opportunities. the Times ran a story about a year ago about how some regional hospitals are in danger of closing (or are closing) because they don't have the population base, revenues, doctors, and government support to stay open.
Fracking would only be financially worthwhile in a handful of NY counties near the Delaware and Susquehanna Rivers. It would do nothing for residents in the former industrial belt from Buffalo to Albany, nor the Adirondacks or Thousand Islands region.
18
@aidan downey Water contamination in PA in the last several years due to fracking has been well-documented, as well as health effects.
5
@aidan downey I’ll tell you what; when the companies that engage in fracking have enough in assets or insurance to indemnify against the possible contamination of the water supply, get back to us.
Until then the gas isn’t going anywhere.
2
I am a descendant of an Irish Immigrant! However, why doesn't New York State try to keep the citizens that have built it by lowering the public pension costs which raise property taxes so many of the population have left the state. We fought the good fight for many years, at 70 and 80 years of age we decided the sacrifices were not possible any more.
14
@Babsy Uh, no. The pensions that were promised before need to be available for the workers now. If the older workers want to have their benefits reduced so that taxes are lowered, then fine. otherwise, you raise a strawman that can't stand.
9
The maybe the state should change the pension laws - to receive your monthly check you should have to spend 3/4 of your time in the state. It would help with the wealth transfer affect.
5
Since moving back to the Utica area from Australia forty years ago, I have witnessed the positive changes brought by the immigrants and refugees referenced in this article. I applaud the efforts of these upstate cities to find and attract more of these people, whose ethics of hard work and family combined with complex and vibrant cultures contribute greatly to the region. On a side note, I found so many of the comments to this article xenophobic, simplistic and uninformed. Thanks Trump.
34
@Peter Turner Trump and Putin are so powerful... They even made the comment section bad!
1
As someone whose father, grandfather, and numerous relatives were born and grew up in upstate New York, I feel qualified to offer some observations here.
From the 1920s to the 1970s, there was a good mix of agriculture and light/heavy industry in the belt between Syracuse and Massena with many small to-mid-size manufacturing businesses, anchored by Alcoa / GM in Massena and GE, Carrier, and Allied Chemical in Syracuse. You could raise dairy cattle, corn, or take up a blue-collar job almost anywhere that paid good wages.
Over time, many of these manufacturing jobs were lost as companies shut down (GE Liverpool) or moved operations out of state, or out of the country (Carrier). Some are still hanging on by a thread (Alcoa).
As for farming, you don't do it to get rich. You do it because you want to. But many of the family farms upstate have shut down because the owners aged out and their children want no part of that hand-to-mouth lifestyle. If it wasn't for Fort Drum, the unemployment rate in Jefferson County would be in the 15-20% range.
If immigrants want to move to this area, start businesses and raise families, how is there any downside to that? Some may become farmers. Others will run retail stores. All will pay taxes, support schools, and other patronize other businesses. All a net positive. What's the alternative?
Yes, the winters can be harsh in this belt. But from April through October, you will have many spectacular warm, sunny days and weeks.
33
I should add that I know a few people who opted to retire to Jefferson and St. Lawrence counties for the affordable housing, wonderful spring/summer/fall weather, inexpensive rounds of golf, good fishing and boating, clean air, and overall reasonable cost of living. They simply take vacations down south when the winter gets a bit harsh, which isn't as often as it used to be.
2
@hdtvpete To answer your question, the downside is the effect on the families with children who already live there. See, these folks moving in are living in crowded conditions -- usually one family per bedroom in a house owned by someone with a 50% property tax exemption-- and a significant portion of the labor is paid under the table. What that means is everyone else who has no exemption gets a big property tax raise. Their school aged children get study hall, 'cause their elective classes (such as math after Alg 2 or honors English) are cancelled in order to pay for ENL class and remedial for the newcomers. There is no state or federal money coming in to pay for the necessary specialists or the tutoring hours.
If the employer was offering above the table, living wage and the work was generating enough school and govt tax to cover the cost of services everyone would be happy. Except the guy who had to take less profit.
2
Here's a revolutionary thought: make living in those cities more desirable, and they -the people- will come and want to live there. I know that's easier said than done, but many communities are not exactly killing themselves making living there more attractive. Good public schools and services are good places to start.
11
Why would we possible want more people in this country. The main cause of climate change is overpopulation. Until we get serious about population control, and stop this self-defeating economic rationale of needing to expand the population - the earth will continue its death spiral.
19
@Chris - Climate Change is real, and thinking about it's effects, make me feel ill, so I am somewhat of a kindred spirit - but - the people these cities are soliciting already exist and so whether they are in Upstate NY or elsewhere, they will impact Climate Change. It would be more effective to slow Climate Change by spending money educating people about how to reuse, recycle, reduce waste, grow native species gardens, ride bikes and/or drive smaller cars, etc. But allowing already existing humans to live in a place on the planet with sufficient resources to support them (e.g., water, good soil to grow food), is not going to negatively impact the planet.
18
@Chris This isn’t expanding the population of the earth - it is just shifting their locations. The problems of overpopulation are, literally, global. By moving to New York and gaining more education, chances are the birth rate of these people will decline. The more education women receive, the fewer children they have - almost always. So by virtue of the fact that the children of these refugees will get a decent education - including the girls, which is not the case in many of their countries of origin - a new generation will have a lower birth rate. Then there will be these articles in the Times in which people bemoan the fact that women are not having enough babies, which, of course, is not true.
19
I guess there are reasons why small regional towns in developed countries have declining populations.
Just to name a few: lack of opportunities. Very few jobs, in very limited fields. Limited or no opportunities for career growth
Education. The best highs schools are in the larger towns, cities. Universities are in the cities.
No ethnic communities. Immigrants leave their whole network of friends and family behind. It helps them in their new country to be with their kind.
I don’t think the solution is to throw a bunch of people at these towns and expect them to stick.
They will move on as soon as they can. They want to give a shot of a better life to their kids, therefore, they will end up in the cities.
It’s the same story in Australia. Regional towns are dying. A few coastal metropolises are growing like cancer.
5
The pool needs cleaning regardless if you are Dems or Republicans. The Dems just like to feel they aren’t exploiting the person because he is a refugee and should be grateful working below minimum wage whereas a Republican simply don’t care.
9
Why aren't these same benefits being given to our veterans?
16
In Syracuse we have a massive veterans’ health center and large veteran community. I know several vets that live solely on their pension. These cities are excellent places for our veterans and offer many services exclusively for them. This article is about refugees, though, because veterans are moving about domestically while refugees are adding to the national population, rather than moving internally.
21
@Fed Up Why would our veterans need resettlement services? And why would you think that efforts to attract refugees to the region would conflict in any way with any programs set up to serve veterans?
24
@Fed Up
Here are the benefits for veterans leaving service with a general discharge: https://www.military.com/benefits/veteran-benefits/veterans-benefits-explained.html
2
Are they legally refugees according to the old laws of the US?
Or are they illegal aliens some cities regularly allow into their towns to soak up the tax payer dollars?
I wonder what would happen if all the US citizens who left tried to enter another sovereign nation illegally.
16
For most, if not all, of these services (like free ESL lessons) you have to be here as a vetted and registered refugee/legal immigrant or the dependent of one (like a child born here to refugee parents).
13
@Michael Rosenthal Well then, most of these hundreds of thousands shoving in will likely not be accepted for these programs available to legal incomers.
1
Informative article; perhaps several states could combine in having employment offices on both sides of the Mexican border.
3
Fine, but can we require them to have at least a HS education and no criminal record?
7
That’s part of the refugee vetting process handled federally-any criminal record is usually disqualifying, unless we see the law itself as a violation of human rights (such as speaking out against the government). Education I’m not sure on, but here in Upstate NY we need both skilled and unskilled labor to allow for economic renewal in both ag and services.
17
People are resilient, give them a decent job and pay them enough to live a decent life like take care of a home and make a community. Healthcare insurance and facilities are a no brainer. No place is "terrible" if you feel safe and productive. Allow people to makes these communities alive again!
10
@MKP - I'm confused. Is your comment about citizens?
Also, if the U.S. government won't take care of its own citizens, what does that say about its willingness to accept "refugees"? Doesn't speak to the long term commitments of the U.S. to its citizens.
9
This article is about a need for population in upstate New York cites and refugees filling that need. In my view, looks like a win win for both the cities and refugees but you couldn't tell that by many of the comments here.
Not surprising because any mention of immigrants and refugees devolves into partisan criticism and with no constructive solutions. Next come the dreaded why can't we or what about the needs for many existing Americans.
Folks we have many needs that need addressing, one at a time, and resorting to partisan politics makes us no better then then politicians in congress.
76
@mlb4ever
Because it's easy to come in here and shout the same, tired, old, and complete disingenuous lines about how if we're helping refugees then it means we're not helping Americans at all. False dichotomies everywhere.
7
@mlb4ever: [This article is about a need for population in upstate New York cites and refugees filling that need.]
People left those areas for a reason. Relocating refugees there is a stopgap measure as their children will leave, too.
6
@Nick
There are way too many Americans who are not getting the help they need.
I think the US is on track for some 80,000 opioid deaths this year... addiction treatment is just too expensive.
And the homeless, mental health care...
QUALITY education and free/affordable QUALITY child care...
The US is the richest country, with the cheapest values.
2
So the objective is to save the America as it was. Interesting experiment. Those towns emptied because production left to cheaper places. Its capitalism, that’s how it works. Production moves to where the lowest cost are cause people like to pay less at Walmart.
Now replacing population with people who have lower living standards demands may well work but it’ll be chiefly about economic activity amongst themselves. Where there’s people, there’s taxes to collected so that will sustain the community services. Desperate refugees would be happy-as parents looking to protect their families, willing to buckle down in an ailing town and do the work. The remaining local residents poor, undereducated many trump followers infected with the “blame other people pref other races”, so be prepared.
12
There’s already a pretty sharp urban-rural divide up here. In November Rep. Katko lost Onondaga County (Syracuse) but won well enough in the rural counties to get re-elected.
2
These were once nice places to live. Behind the symptom of lack of workers is the disease of our shrinking middle class, and it started when Ronald Reagan ushered in the era of tax cuts for votes. A majority of voters eagerly cast their votes for decades of meager tax breaks while corporations took enormous ones then wanted more - cheap non-union labor in the south, Mexico, Asia. So now in these New York State towns you have high property taxes, and for what? Whatever happens I hope voters finally realize the role they played in hollowing out our cities, and often their own bank accounts, all over the U.S. I hope the new immigrants aren't so easily duped. There is such a need for change, and I hope new immigrants, wherever they come from, bring the community- minded spirit and engagement to make it happen.
19
@MsMallard
The economic base of these NY cities were leaving way before Reagan was elected. Now a lot of these communities have massive taxes on a shrinking property base and one of the reasons is that they have massive legacy costs for unionized employees - lifetime health insurance and other perks .
10
The issues of refugees and the depopulation of non coastal cities is complex.
I would very much appreciate the NYT doing more reporting that considers whether higher wages would attract unemployed citizens. How do refugees contribute to the huge and growing income/wealth inequality gap?
The US has an obligation to refugees of countries it has wrecked in pursuit of its global interests, but it also has a responsibility to those very discouraged unemployed citizens we hear so much about.
I like the diversity that refugees bring, but I suspect that using refugees to revitalize a depopulating city is a fig leaf to cover the unwillingness to invest in having healthy, educated citizens AND family friendly policies like paid parental leave and free/affordable care.
23
New York State, in addition to trying to bolster these cities’ populations, is at the forefront of expanding access to education for the middle and working class, as well as childcare (such as free pre-K to all Syracuse residents) and healthcare.
7
@Lucy Cooke
Hi Lucy, I wrote almost exactly the same comment as you, before seeing your post. I agree with you!
3
Before jobs moved to China from upstate New York, they moved south to the Sunbelt states, where unions are kept out so companies can get away with paying lower wages. German auto companies have built a huge manufacturing base in the US South because they can pay the US citizen workers there less than German workers are paid. When US companies use their new tax savings to buy back their own stock, it is clear that the problem isn't too much regulation but too little. Companies can get away with just about anything it seems.
59
I read articles like this, or more important, the comments to get some understanding of the state of my country of birth.
The comments overall, at least on the basis of sampling, are not encouraging.
I have only one suggestion for anyone interested in learning about immigrants, if there are any, who have come from the Middle East, Afghanistan, and the Horn of Africa.
Volunteer to help them learn English as a second, third, fourth, or even fifth language. I did that here in Linköping about 18 years ago - at the Red Cross - and I now have a collection of notebooks in which asylum seekers and those granted asylum, mostly high school students wrote their names using the Swedish alphabet and then on one or more lines using the alphabet of one or more of their other languages.
They have given me at least as much as I may have given them and almost without exception, spending a couple of hours with my colleagues and with people from just about everywhere is a high point of every week.
If just one person who reads this at least takes the next step, tries to find out what programs exist in, for example, my city for 40 years, Rochester, New York, and makes an inquiry writing this will be worth it.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
26
Not mentioned in this article is why American citizens are leaving these towns. Could it be government policy, Taxes and regulation that makes it necessary for business to seek low wage immigrant employees? How about state government policy that is anti economic growth? Seems that there is more here than what was presented.
23
@wes evans
It amazes me that so many people do not see the connection between taxes and regulation and a thriving citizenry and a sustainable future.
Having a healthy, educated citizenry, family friendly with parental leave and free/affordable child care, and a sustainable future isn't cheap.
Cheap with its crime, homelessness, addiction, despair, unhealthy water, a future with climate mayhem of extreme flooding or drought and uncontrollable fires, may be your "cup of tea".
13
@Lucy Cooke
The Syracuse area has high taxes with strict regulations and falls in the second category. It is quite a sad place.
4
Regulation is only part of the story. Corporations outsourcing manufacturing jobs to developing countries has taken work away even from non-union labor in low-regulation states. Nothing Syracuse or NYS does could do anything about that particular issue.
6
Why not expand legal immigration, that way we can prioritize our needs, and screen for illness, English skills and terrorist motives. I'm afraid these upstate cities are not viable in the long run because the industries that built them are long gone and the products are now made in China. Since Nixon "opened" China to the west, we have sent them the jobs that used to exist in these towns. This is the source of China's great wealth and the reason they are fighting to keep lopsided trade rules in place. President Trump understands we have built up our newest adversary to the point where they can challenge us in the Pacific. The U.S. has always had a mobile society and this is nothing new, however the Northeast offers fewer quality of life items, aside from cheap, rundown housing. All the advertising these states are doing won't be enough to overcome the inherent negatives.
9
New York State constitutionally lacks the power to expand legal immigration, including the refugee system, that has been shrunk by the current White House.
However, a focus on healthcare and education is happening state-wide in an effort to increase the number of people entering the state and their quality of life while here.
4
Besides the fact that supply and demand mean that the more people you import (on a planet in a permanent over supply of labor and people) will have a down ward pressure on wages where does this end? There are already over 325 million Americans. 5% of the worlds population using 25% of its resources. We are the worlds highest per capita co2 producers. The nyts and the left claim that they care about climate change and global warming. How does increasing the already unsustainable u.s. population help the environment? Not to mention the millions of Americans who need the help that is lavished on bringing even more people here. We don't need anymore people. Not poor people from Central America to exploit or rich white people from Europe. We should be reducing immigration to the barest of minimums and encouraging people already here to have fewer children and at the same time moving toward a sustainable economy. We can then help the rest of the planet do the same. The way forward to a livable world (for humans and other species that are fast disappearing) is not by importing more people into an over populated country that is already a major contributor to the worlds problems.
15
@Al
Keep in mind, there would not be so many, very needy refugees, if the US hadn't spent exorbitant amounts of money wrecking countries to make the world safer for capitalism...
5
@Al. Before we go to the tired arguements that the CIA intervened in some countries in Central America in the 50s so that means we can't say no to anyone who wants to come here there's a statistic that constantly gets over looked.and here it is. Since that same time period, those countries have seen there populations rise by 4-6 x. This unsustainable spectacular growth in human numbers has had a far more detrimental effect on those countries than any u.s. policy. No system economic or environmental can deal with those numbers. So they are coming here. We won't solve their problems or ours by being the worlds population pressure relief valve.
7
So people are fleeing these cities to find a better place to live, and cities' idea of a solution is to simply try to get people fleeing from even worse places to live there. That way city governments don't have to fix the problems that drove the original residents away, they just get refugees willing to put up with the problems because they don't know better places exist. A race to the bottom.
31
Didn't our President say "We're full"? No room for immigrants?
10
@Charlie He also said the tariffs are in response to China taking our jobs. China took nothing from us. Our corporations gave those jobs away to appease their shareholders. And they did this with the help of our government that has had its palms greased by lobbyists to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.
26
@Jay Schneider
Correct. Exactly on point. All the other comments struggle to zero in on what is really happening here.
6
For a city like Buffalo, the MSA population is relatively stable. The population of the city itself is declining as whites decamp for suburbs in the MSA. Looks like simple white flight, at least in that case.
3
More refugees seems like a great way to drive out even more locals.
16
@ES
Why would that be? New faces, new foods, hard workers. Sounds like a win-win.
8
@ES--Not all Americans are xenophobes and racists. Many are ready to accept refugees into their communities and would rather live next door to a friendly, kind and purposeful refugee than a bigoted American.
13
Look around! In many places those caring (well) for the elderly in nursing homes are immigrants/refugees.
7
These cities could just provide plentiful, comfortable, free, transportation from the southern border to good quality free housing in their areas.
8
These cities are losing residents because they are lousy places to live. They are dated, have horrible weather and are isolated.
If I were an immigrant, I wouldn't settle in any of these places.
8
@Gofry Columbus Ohio has significantly better weather than upstate and western NY cities? Not to my experience.
11
@Gofry
The distance between northeast Ohio and the western border of NY State is only 47 miles, with a wee bit of Pennsylvania in between. Check a map. If upstate NY is isolated and with horrible weather, can it be much better 47 miles away?
11
Contrast this with the article about the coding course that was meant to help Appalachians get jobs. Why don’t they advertise for those people to move to their towns? Or why won’t those people move if jobs are available elsewhere?
8
Mon,
There are no jobs in Appalachia. That’s why those people there took a chance on learning how to code. Unfortunately for them the company that enticed them into joining was either mismanaged or bogus from the git-go. Plus, do you really think that the people in Appalachia would welcome refugees from, say Kenya, or for that matter from anywhere with open arms? Do you think that a refugee from Kenya or a Muslim refugee from say Syria would really have Appalachia high on their list of places to emigrate to?
7
@Mon The coding jobs were a scam. Perhaps these refugees are smarter than we think.
2
Where did 30 percent of the inhabitants of Rochester and Syracuse, 40 percent of Utica, and half of Buffalo go? And why?
This is an essential part of understanding the complete picture. Would love to hear more from the author.
34
@Anonymous The time period for Utica's loss of people started in 1950 according to the article. One big loss started when the B-52 airbase closed down after we won the Cold War. As for Rochester, think the loss of Xerox's monopoly on its copier process, and Kodak loss of film dominance, both of which could have dominated computers (Xerox invented the Mouse and the GUI) and Kodak the electronic camera). And Utica outfitted the Union army with the Union suit, only to lose out to the invention of the "brief" underwear. I think the point is, the upstate cities, back then refused to renew themselves to changing times, and are now attempting to adapt.
15
@Anonymous
Um...I believe they died and were not replaced. These cities' populations have been dwindling for years, and younger residents are moving away in droves. They are literally dying off, and incoming refugee residents revivify the cities' economy.
2
@Anonymous
to what extent for each city was it simply white flight to the suburbs?... more reporting need, please!
4
I notice that when people say “immigrants and illegal citizens are taking our jobs" they didn't want that job before it was taken by an immigrant/refugee. The bigger problem to me here is that some Americans rather see the job remain vacant than an immigrant/refugee taking the job and that is just sad.
I think NYS needs to do a way bigger job in developing better job markets upstate and possible diverting the amount of Americans moving to NYC for jobs and moving to upstate cities for jobs instead.
9
I know a large apple producer out by Albany has to rely on expensive, legal immigrant labor (primarily from Jamaica) because not enough locals are capable and interested in working there-the locals are the first to call in absent during rainy weather. Meanwhile the apple consortium he’s a part of lost out on a major contract due to being a single cent per bushel more expensive than Pacific Northwest apples grown with higher proportions of illegal labor.
4
Maybe now it will be their turn to see why people feel they are being forced out of the City
4
Are we not close to having in excess of 80,000 drug overdose deaths in this country on an annual basis? It would seem the opioid producers are killing more people than we are allowing to immigrate into the country. Many of the homeless and unemployed are hooked on drugs, so have neither the means nor incentive to move where the jobs are. Address the drug crisis first hand and maybe, just maybe it might help get people where they are wanted and needed.
10
@John Warnock
Probably luring refugees and immigrants and paying lowest possible wages is cheaper than healthcare, addiction treatment, education...
5
How about doubling your salaries and attracting American citizens struggling to get by in high cost of living urban areas?
18
@Luciano That doesn't happen by magic, and might be economically impossible for most businesses.
5
@Bob R
At its essence, the US is the world's richest country, with the cheapest values.
2
@Luciano
Be realistic and look at this country. Look at the record of murder and general violence here. Does anyone really believe every American who wants to relocate could pass much of a vetting process?
Many, probably most, immigrants are trying to escape mayhem, yet they come here anyway. I'd like to see what they can do to improve the deprived, crumbling areas they're being encouraged to enrich.
Amazing how so many comments are either missing the point of the article or somehow are dismissing the efforts of Maine, Vermont, NY, Wyoming, etc. to attract people to their states. Do you seriously think these states are not doing this for a reason?
9
@sjs Have to buy those votes to keep the tax and spend democratic machine going
6
@skater242 yes, taxes needed to spend on things like better health care and improved infrastructure.
2
@skater242
Oh, please. "buy those votes"?? Do you understand what is going?
2
To what extent are these refugees assimilating into American culture? Immigration is about a lot more than just cheap labor for dying cities. I’m not implying that they are failing to assimilate, but I find it curious that the article doesn’t address the issue. Americans want to live in America, not Bangladesh. New immigrants should do as my great grandparents did and choose Americanized names, speak English, and adopt the local culture as their own.
35
@DRS If you look closer at the article you see mentioning of English classes such as at an international center in Utica. Language is the basis of all culture. You yourself said your ancestors learned and used English. Is, how is that different from immigrants today? I taught an English workshop for Asian and Hispanic post-high school students on the Lower East Side. They were fantastic! Eager to learn and ambitious. Hard to imagine my own ancestors any better. If we want America to stay great, we need them badly.
51
@DRS As I see it, the current immigrants are following the same path as prior European immigrants. It doesn't happen overnight.
15
@DRS- What the heck in an "Americanized" name? People can come here and assimilate in terms of American laws, and some culrural customs. but they can also share some of their culture as well.
19
Something about this story does NOT ring true. 500,000 people have crossed the border this year, and upstate NY can not attract any of them?
Maybe they should try advertising is Spanish?
15
You know who doesn’t have to offer incentives to maintain its population? Texas, Florida, and several other of the southern states. US citizens are voting with their feet, saying “No more” to outrageous taxes and crazy progressive policies.
23
@BDM
It's a matter of sunshine. Kansas, for one, has tried the "No More" approach with no success.
17
@Jim S. I once heard a reference to Caribbean immigrants in NY as "summer people in winter clothing." People do like familiar climates, etc. Another matter not mentioned was the retirement of the huge Baby Boomer generation. A number of these have taken off for Florida or moved closer to their children.
3
@BDM
Your comment is not really relevant to the conversation.
Also worth noting, there is a small but growing number of people who move to the sun belt and then leave. they are getting tired of heat, bad weather, and no services (which is what you get with no taxes)
20
I don't understand this. I live in an area with bad employment in Brooklyn. Why are we not helping those already in NYC that are living in complete poverty and matching them with these jobs and helping them get on their feet. We have a skyrocketing homeless population. To not take care of them first -- you are betraying those left behind in NYC. Move their families to these places and give them employment first. This is ridiculous. Stop ignoring the people whom are already here and desperate for help.
43
@Location01 Several years ago, I saw a TV interview of an NYC housing official. He made the point that a large percentage of the homeless in shelters had previous addresses outside of NYC. "Built it and they will come" proves true in this.
9
@Location01 So why don't Brooklynites who need good jobs move to where they are? Of course they need skills and experience, or at least the ambitions and energies to get them. That's why the fellow from Somalia moved his family and himself from Erie. He'll probably earn a slice of the American Dream; most of your homeless won't no matter how much money we spend on them. The cities in the article are trying to survive; they need real workers.
6
@Location01-It's called Racism 101. People "prefer" certain people over others. No one wants to help "inner city" American populations or American homeless people. Look around.
5
So no American wants to move to NY? How can this be, with socialist leaders and high taxes? The next best solution, import more poor that will be dependent on the system and force more taxes. Who's on first?
24
I assure you. There are no socialist leaders in New York.
11
If you read the article this depopulation has been happening all over the US for many years. The younger people leave the rural areas with small cities for more opportunities in bigger cities. This even happens in” red” states. It is happening all over the world.
3
@Jon Galt As soon as someone starts throwing around the word "socialist," you know they don't have a clue as to what they're talking about.
7
Beyond using refugees to revitalize small cities around the country, let's expand that effort to another group of immigrants. Specifically, by awarding H1-B visas on a geographical basis. Rather than giving out most of these visas to tech workers in a few select areas such as NYC or Silicon Valley, provide an equal number to, say, each Congressional district.
Whether that gives a boost to local entrepreneurs, or gives tech firms a reason to establish a more widely based presence, doing so would be a good start to reducing the great feast or famine disparity of economic outcomes of American cities.
12
This is great news. I’ve often wondered why we are allowing developers to bulldoze more housing in the SW where there is not enough water for the people already there - when we have so many cities and towns already built here in the NE, and ready to support more people, indeed in need of more people to keep them going.
15
They don’t need to attract refugees, they can just attract New Yorkers priced out of their neighborhoods.
49
@AmateurHistorian
Wow: illegals get to choose where they intend to live...
2
Let's call a Spade a Spade here! They don't want refugees, they want cheap labor. The number of homelessness in NYC is the thousands. How many people living in the public housing struggling to make ends meet? In the hundred of thousands. Are you telling me that there are no people in NYC that would jump to possibility of leaving the perhaps dangerous neighborhoods to live in a safe neighborhood upstate? Why not offer these jobs and housing aid opportunities to them? The only answer to that is, is many of these residents will demand good pay, benefits and not allow an employer to work them to death unlike a refugee that is so happy to be in America they will not know they are being taken advantage of.
90
@Leo--Many refugees are educated. They don't all have to take manufacturing jobs. In fact, they open their own businesses that help revitalize the areas when they settle. And, the manufacturing jobs they do take are good paying, where they work side by side with American citizens, making the same pay. Don't assume all refugees are willing to be exploited. Many work hard, integrate into their community and become community leaders. They're not all the "huddled masses" of the past.
Your idea of taking the homeless off the streets and plunking them down into these communities ignores the reality of addiction and mental illness that is rampant in homeless populations. These communities don't have the resources to deal with that, plus train people who haven't worked for years in some cases.
The opportunities are open to residents of NYC. Anyone can move upstate. Often, they simply don't want to leave family and support networks, something the refugees have already done and have no problem with.
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@Leo
Evidence that it hasn't been offered?
Is there anything from stopping these people you speak up from moving to upstate NY?
9
@Ms. Pea
So true. Downtown Danbury, CT has been total revitalized by refugees/immigrants from South America
5
It is, sadly but ironically, an unintended consequence of Trump’s draconian and inhumane immigration policies that it makes us appreciate the immigrates we already have even more.
12
To the extent that refugees have kids, are in poor health and have limited job and language skills, as is common in refugee groups, they will be a financial burden on the communities in which they settle (need for more schools and teachers, medical services, welfare and other public assistance, etc.). Surely some think tanks have crunched these numbers for communities like those in upstate New York and it would helpful for the NYT to dig this information up and share it with readers.
Also, one wonders what kinds of jobs, and pay levels, are available in Utica and Syracuse and Buffalo and Jamestown. They can’t be well-paying if these cities are experiencing out-migration. People don’t attract jobs; it’s vice-versa.
22
The world population has tripled since my birth in the 1950s. In what universe do we want more people? Population decline is a good thing.
And tell that to the regions which have a 40% higher population increase than the rest of the world: Africa, the Middle East , South and Central America.
23
@Stanley Gomez "The world population has tripled since my birth in the 1950s. In what universe do we want more people? Population decline is a good thing. "
Not necessarily if it's in a city or state. We're not talking about creating more people, we're talking about bringing people from one place to another where they're needed.
8
Americans welcome LEGAL immigrants, but do not want ILLEGAL immigrants. They recognize that the US cannot afford (or choose not) to support our own citizens: the poor, the ill, elderly, disabled, veterans, et al., and that they and other US taxpayers cannot possibly support the hundreds of millions of foreigners who would like to come here.
US laws allow foreigners to seek entry and citizenship. Those who do not follow these laws are in this country illegally and should be detained and deported; this is policy in other countries, too.
The cruelty lies not in limiting legal immigration, or detaining and deporting illegal immigrants, or forcing those who wish to enter the US to wait for processing. What is cruel, unethical and probably illegal is encouraging parents to bring their children on the dangerous trek to US borders and teaching the parents how to game the system to enter the US by falsely claiming asylum, persecution, etc. Indeed, many believe bringing children on such perilous journeys constitutes child abuse.
No other nation has open borders, nor should the US.
18
@Mon Ray
The difference between illegal and legal immigrants is ... the law. Many countries have very low quotas so that no one can come in legally. We are sending college graduates and PhDs from our world class programs home, after they pay retail for their education, which most Americans cannot or will not do.
Legal is obviously better, for both the country and the immigrants themselves. If legal, they are protected by labor laws including minimum wage, workmans comp, etc and compete fairly with citizens. Abuse happens to illegal immigrants who are taken advantage of by employers.
Both parties need to work on reasonable immigration laws. Amnesty makes some sense since people have supported themselves and behaved well for many years, or they would not qualify. DACA kids are working hard ..
3
@Mon Ray We CAN afford to support our own citizens if corporations and the wealthy pay their fair share of taxes. The US us still the wealthiest nation on earth, but the wealth is concentrated in very few hands.
As to the refugees you mailign with no data to support your assertions, you need to do some reading, or if you can afford it, some traveling, before you reiterate the falsehoods that have prejudiced you against migrants.
7
This is excellent, detailed reporting. I am from one of the many families that left upstate New York in the 1970s. I learned a lot from this article about what has been happening there and what people are doing about it. Great stuff.
22
Refugees from Myanmar have help the Westside of Buffalo over the last few decades.
The Central Leatherstocking area of NY has suffered more than most other regions of the State in terms of population loss.
It's great to see Utica and Rome working to grow their base.
The Simpson's episode a few weeks ago about Upstate is true is some regards but Upstate has a lot of potential.
I would put the waterfront of Buffalo up against any city in the Country,
8
@K Hunt Even with all that (gorgeous) lake effect snow? I love snow, having grown up near Canadian border, but the snow in Buffalo is true awe- (or terror) inspiring.
@K Hunt Especially in the winter.
3
“Why are we capping the legal point of entry unless we can’t handle them, and no one is saying we can’t handle them?” Mr. Picente said.
--------------Why? Because other Americans end up subsidizing those low wage workers you want to "revitalize" your cities and towns. There are Americans (and, as this story points out, legal immigrants) already here who could be encouraged to move with the kinds of incentives these locales are offering. No need to import people for the rest of us to subsidize. (No mention, for example, of who pays for the welfare, healthcare, and educations "refugees" and their families get.)
29
@Ali
The taxes these immigrant workers pay subsidize the welfare, healthcare, and education of the aging American-born population unwilling or unable to move to work a job.
If unemployed American-born people are unable to move, because of health or other reasons, I feel bad for them. The relatively young and healthy immigrant population can subsidize their healthcare and welfare.
But if these unemployed American-born people are unemployed simply because they don't feel like moving, or don't like the jobs that immigrants are willing to move to take, then they should at least stop complaining about the workforce whose taxes pay their bills.
You say, American-born workers "could be encouraged to move with the kinds of incentives these locales are offering..."
Could be? What's stopping them? The incentives are there for anybody.
19
If these communities are so desperate for workers, why are they not coming to New York City and recruiting from the 20 percent of the population living at poverty level? Why are they not recruiting from the released prisoner population? Why is the city paying NYC landlords money to take in homeless when a bus ticket and three months' rent could get a family established upstate? Why are these not questions not brought up in this article?
156
@landless My questions, as well.
12
@landless Two words: Work ethic.
5
Didn't New York get the memo from DJT? The country is full. We have no more opportunities to offer to ambitious, hard working immigrants who want to find a job and raise their families in the USA.
13
@jwljpm The “memo” was about illegals.
16
@Jackson
Then why decrease legal immigration to declining areas? Why decrease legal immigration when our birth rates are negative? Why lie about the wall? Why would Christians turn away refugees, if not for love of Trump?
19
@Jackson Then why is he restricting LEGAL immigration numbers as well?
9
It doesn't do citizens already here any good if there is no industry. The ego maniac demagogue Trump would rather wreck the economy than to offend the most bigoted part of his base.
Immigrants whether legal or illegal mainly take the jobs Americans don't want to do or are not available to do.
Instead of taking a more extreme right wing approach (or the opposite ie let everybody in and put them on welfare) lobby for a common sense immigration policy that let's enough people in to keep our economy humming, pay them livable wages and give priority to deporting terrorist and criminals first.
10
@Paul--As always, you forget to say the jobs Americans won't do AT THE WAGES OFFERED. Immigration, legal or illegal, expands the supply of labor and allows employers to pay lower wages and avoid improving working conditions.
As for a "right wing" approach, it's actually been DEMOCRATS who historically have opposed even legal immigration for that reason--immigrants drive down/keep down wages, and because employers have essentially unlimited access to workers, make it hard to unionize workers.
17
@Ali-Thank you for your reply. I half agree with you. A sensible middle approach is the way to go. The extreme left would love to let everybody in and put them on welfare because it gives them a talking point to their base. You are right they really don't want to solve the problem.
Ditto on the right, they rail about immigration especially illegal, but do nothing about a common sense approach since they love slave labor illegal immigration making slave wages.
Either extreme can ruin a country. Immigration adverse countries like Japan and other western nations are ruining into a demographic nightmare since they don't have enough young workers in general and especially to support retired workers.
On the other side in NYC circa 1960s, the pols brought in minorities especially from PR and put them all on welfare and it nearly destroyed the city in the 1970s.
4
This idea will have the remaining residents flee as their school taxes substantially increase to pay for the additional services required.
It would be better to help the remaining residents of the cities to gain skills via the Community College, so they will be employable.
And also it would be helpful if seniors would stop exempting themselves from school tax, or would start lobbying Albany to pay for vo-tech, ENL, and AP/IB. The teens who live there now are having a hard time learning in underfunded schools.
18
I lived in Jamestown NY for most of my adult life. I saw it decline from a titan in the furniture industry to a largely deindustrialized community that is struggling to make ends meet through tourism. I see the metamorphosis of my former hometown as being Darwinian. Evolution never ceases. Jamestown and Buffalo went from boom to decline in a period of over 100 years. There is no guarantee as to what the next hundred years will bring, but inviting immigrants was an ingredient that built these communities. The first time it was Italian, Polish, Irish and Swedish immigrants who wanted to build a better life. Now the immigrants have different origins but this is nothing new. The other advantage that I see is as other parts of the country are drying up, cities like Buffalo and Jamestown have access to abundant fresh water.
123
@tankslapper - sorry, much has changed in the last 100 years. Education and skills are required to succeed in today’s economy. Sending a large number of unskilled, uneducated immigrants, many of which don’t even speak English, won’t magically transform these communities. In fact, for many years, there will be a drain to the local economies as resources are required to educate them, subsidize their housing and meals, provide healthcare,....
3
@D Smith no magic was implied here. I visited Buffalo last year after having been away for nearly 15 years. The city looked better tan it had for a very long time. Formerly rundown neighborhoods were being renovated by mi
ddle class families. Long-time empty store fronts now have ethnic markets, restaurants, etc.. Buffalo may never be the economic powerhouse that it once was but it is evolving into something different and better than it was in the recent past.
20
@D Smith
You assume that people are born a certain way and remain static for the rest of their lives. People do change to grab the opportunities afforded to them. When there are obstacles, often their children are the very people who end up to meet the academic and vocational requirements for the new economy. The second generation of immigrants have always been the vanguard of this country. This has always been the American way.
As for "uneducated and unskilled immigrants," every person, immigrant or not, brings their experiences, knowledge base and work ethic. As for learning a language, it is not uncommon for "poorly educated" people from around the world to be multilingual. Adding (even imperfect) English to their repertoire would not be the hardest thing they ever did. If you have any doubt, however, about the educational levels of (legal) immigrants, this Pew Study should make it very clear that often immigrants already have the academic, skills and linguistic advantages:
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/14/education-levels-of-u-s-immigrants-are-on-the-rise/
4
This is not going to solve the problems that smaller cities in the USA are facing - immigrants are neither a problem nor a solution, they're just people trying to find a way in life like all of us. Rather than turning to people who are willing to work on the cheap, cities and towns should be trying to attract new residents with high wage jobs, cheap housing, and amenities for young people.
Oh what's that you say? Oh it's not as simple as that? Funny, whenever I have a problem in my life I'm usually given advice such as 'go to trade school' or 'brush up your resume' or 'bootstraps', rather going and begging for an easy way out.
You want people to come? Offer good wages, and 'good wages' doesn't mean $12/hour, it means a living wage with benefits. Offer tuition assistance. Things like 'oh it's such a darling place to raise a family' don't mean Jack to Millenials and Gen Z'ers who can't afford one. If your municipality can't afford this, you better start petitioning your state to make some major changes - it's not the 1980s, Boomer Politicians, time to wake up.
59
We bought a house in the Charlotte section of Rochester 3 years ago as our new northern perch for the summer (we moved from near Woodstock when I retired). It's a lovely neighborhood in a beautiful treed and cultured city--and has a diverse community that is full of immigrant and African-American families with a long history here. Yes, retirees like us are flocking to Florida, more for the winter weather than the taxes, and paving over all the remaining farm and wilderness areas there. But the northern inland cities are the ones that will survive the worst of climate change. We should be developing policies for attracting and welcoming both immigrants and snow birds back to the north, the latter for at least part of the year. This, I believe, will help improve the educational and employment opportunities for our current residents and the future revenue base for our communities.
39
@Jayne. What climate change has affected upstate New York?
@Jackson
The cold, dark North of my childhood would go through January to February without melting, my driveway that I shoveled, would be 10 feet high towards the hard part. Of course we got a snowblower but only my dad could operate it (they were always second hand and weighed as much as I did and were surlier than a teenager). One year we had to pay a snowplow to move the snowblowed snow around, the piles were so high. Now it blizzards and melts constantly up there. I've had green Christmas after green Christmas in my annual trips - a huge disappointment to my son lately.
Make no mistake, it will change slowly, then all at once. The Dust Bowl was like that.
17
The number of refugees and asylums should drop to zero. Laws and treaties of the 1950's designed for a world of 2 billion need to be cancelled. The USA is already a leaky lifeboat that will develop even more numerous and larger holes as unlimited numbers of people are stuffed into it.
33
@Marigrow
But how will this help the places & businesses that need people? Just look to Japan; even they need immigrants now as their native population dwindles & ages.
12
@Salix - Japan recently embarked on an immigration program to address this. NYT wrote an article about it.
The difference is that the Japanese government appears to have studied the issue and then tried to implement a solution that seems to take the needs of its citizens into account when crafting this, unlike that of the U.S.
27
@Salix
There will always be businesses that "need" people to come work for them at below market wages. Want to work for $1/hr or even $5/hr??? My business needs tons of labor at those rates.
11
People that can stick with and navigate the refugee system are exactly the type of people this country needs
42
Rather confusing, isn’t it? Locking immigrant kids in cages, but businesses begging for refugees?
If you were a refugee, and considering another place to live, what would you do?
18
@MIMA--Those kids are detained because THEIR PARENTS chose to break our laws by entering illegally and are being prosecuted for it. What do we do with kids when mom and dad are in jail?
It isn't up to refugees to decide where they're resettled. The US has refugee caps, and we take refugees subject to those caps.
8
@Ali The conditions to which these kids are subjected is unacceptable.
4
Entering a illegally is not a felon and so jail should not be the consequence. Americans who are jailed know where their children are placed. The children are not lost forever.
4
“Why are we capping the legal point of entry unless we can’t handle them, and no one is saying we can’t handle them?” Mr. Picente said.
The answer couldn’t be simpler or more obvious: Trump, the reTrumplicans, and The Deplorables don’t like or want people of color “invading” our country. If a million white refugees from Europe were knocking on the front door, they would be welcomed with open arms.
82
@Mark
No, it's actually because Democrats refuse to address illegal "asylum" immigration or the issues with our immigration system in general so Trump is trying to counter balance by adjusting where he can and refugees is basically the only lever available.
19
@Keith Yes, the GOP has just been so cooperative the past decade in dealing with the democrats on immigration. You are just rationalizing your support for Trump, who is nothing but a wrecking ball to everything decent in this country.
15
@Keith immigrants have very little effect on our prosperity (ever dwindling as it is) compared to mega-rich monster-people who have more money than you or I could ever dream of but pay their employees $10/hour while raising their prices. Trump and company are blaming immigrants for the problems they caused by blaming the weakest, most under-represented people possible because they can't fight back and they are easy fodder for people who are frightened and hopeless since their bosses shipped their job to China or India. Immigrants didn't destroy the economy, bank-mobsters, capitalist-slaveholders and irresponsible baby boomers did.
10
They will become successful, begin to get bigger homes and better nest eggs and then they will realize that they will get taxed to death like to rest of Upstate NY and leave for Florida. It does not correct the underlying reason why populations of those cities have declined. The state has to change the way they deal with businesses. They are not dumb, they will be given a glimmer of hope and then the tax and regulatory hammer of NY state will hit them hard and they will look elsewhere to have businesses.
16
@Jim It won't be too many years before Florida is too hot to work outside or do anything outside in the summer. You can have it.
6
@Jim If the exodus from Upstate NY is simply about taxes these people would be moving to the Dakota’s or perhaps Montana. Taxes are cheaper there than Florida. I would bet it’s partially about the weather.
3
@Daniel Savino
The exodus of young people from Upstate NY has been in large part to escape small town life and poor opportunities - especially for those who have post-secondary education. Drive through upstate NY - like the Adirondack towns - and experience the abandoned downtowns. Watch "Escape at Dannemora" and see how it is - and how prisons figure in the lousy economy. Interestingly, Mennonites have purchased farms and made them productive. And low taxes give you your money's worth - on education, the environment, and much else....
5
As our 'native' population dwindles, and our needs for human resources rise, having a xenophobe and racist in the Oval Office won't help resolve the natural flow of people to re-invigorate our town stops, as even documented immigrants, unless 'white', are despised by Trump and associates (Stephen Miller's variety), and not allowed to come and save us. Oh well, while stupidity remains in good supply at the federal level, local efforts remain helpful, allowing new life in our communities, a bright spot to invigorate our creativity, ingenuity and technological prowess to satisfy our diverse needs...and the undeniable joy derived from a job well done, and sharing the wealth.
8
@manfred marcus-- We do NOT need to import people. We're already over 300 million, and straining the environment. Immigration expands our carbon footprint and increases global warming. Or do you think that immigrants don't adopt American consumption habits, and use resources such as water?
13
@Ali Good points; 'happy' to kow that others share the concern about us humans fouling up Mother Earth's environment. Although carbon dioxide is a culprit, there are others as well even if not as long-lasting. Our carbon imprint ought to be cut, but there is no easy nor fast way to do it; but stopping the use of coal would go a long way...while we still depend on gas and oil for our living benefits. Aside from being frugal with our resources, we do know we can exceed our potential in sustainable energy (solar, wind, etc) by our technological prowess...as human imagination and creativity does surprise us day in and day out. A pesky detail in our capitalistic society is the lack of ethics, allowing the worst sin imaginable, greed, to foul the pie...and maintain the current odious inequities. But attracting new blood (in the form of immigrants helping us out) is not the problem if you follow Borlaug's thoughts. Clear as mud you may say, but an honest appraisal is always a breath of 'fresh air' worth doing.
Utica was a rather dirty, ugly little city in the late 1970's and thru the '80's. But now, visitors to Utica will see a clean and attractive downtown with lots of people walking on the streets. The buildings seem to be in better condition and there are more shops and restaurants open. Whatever the city is doing today seems to be working.
38
If these were good well paying jobs we would not have to import desperately poor people from abroad to fill them.
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@maguire--The Washington Post today has a story about Somali immigrants who are working in Amazon's warehouses. These women are complaining about the wages and working conditions. Think the big attraction of refugees and immigrants from the Third World isn't that they're "cheap" (to the employer) labor?
9
“Compared to 5,000 just two years ago.” This is such a small drop in the bucket. The problems of upstate New York are much more about overtaxation and underinvestment. That the “Buffalo Billion” turned out to be a scam is a much bigger insult than a tiny amount of refugees.
12
I was born in Syracuse. I lived there and then in Rochester as a child. We had relatives in Utica and Buffalo. All of us were 2nd and 3rd generations of an immigrant family. These are the places where our fathers found jobs.
My cousins and I were the first in our families to go to college; more than half of us found jobs and built our lives outside upstate NY. Not because of taxes but because our work required it.
If these new -- and legal -- immigrant are able to live and work these towns as their families make their way through life - why not?
Last note: the retirees in my family are leaving NY and other states in the Northeast for the warmer weather at least as much as taxes.
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If in multiple ways humans are destroying the planet and if robots and machines are going to take away millions of jobs, then it seems to me that slowing population growth (or reversing it) is actually the desirable and responsible thing to do in the medium/long term.
32
Why concentrate on refugees from other countries? New York City has a crisis for affordable housing. Why not encourage impoverished New York City residents who lack housing to migrate to these upstate small cities that have lots of cheap, empty homes? The article says there is work! And certainly for those on public assistance, moving to larger, cheaper homes is an option ! Homes for $50,000 to $100,000 are unimaginable in NYC but common upstate! Rents are well under $1000/month! Shouldn't this be considered as one part of solving the affordable housing crisis!
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@Donna Gray
The people who lack housing in NYC may have jobs already - they just lack affordable housing.
There are many working poor people.
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Part of the problem is the concentration of desirable industries in large cities. If you're producing entertainment, for example, or anything else involving collaboration, then you need people with talent, and most talented people situate where the work is: in large cities with the types of jobs that can sustain a person trying to concentrate on building a career in the arts. Moving to Buffalo is not an option, because nobody of import will ever see your creative work. Your agent won't call you, you won't get auditions or gigs, and everyone who can help you get work is going to forget that you exist. These days most creatives - and that includes people behind the scenes - work gigs and have no choice but to live in or near a big city, scraping by as best they can, along with everyone else who is not cut out for a desk job, medicine, law, finance, a factory, or a trade.
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@Donna Gray
I think the benefits that NYC provides its poor residents might be a disincentive to move elsewhere.
For example, no matter how poor you are, you still get good healthcare, food, and some sort of subsidized dwelling, in NYC. You just need to know how the system works and many folks do.
4
Part of the loss of population, at least for New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut, is from retirees who are fleeing to low tax states like Florida. By increasing spending on services for refugees, these state governments are only exacerbating the problem. Perhaps reducing taxes would reduce the outflow. But that involves cutting spending, something Democratic governors seem allergic to.
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The states mentioned are trying to attract workers, not retirees. I think preconceived notions are moving to Florida.
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@David Schatsky Most retirees have families. Driving them out of the state also slowly but surely causes their families to move as well. Very tiresome to keep hearing the implied idea that older people are used-up, replaceable, isolated units with no value.
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@G
If taxes were the central issue then NYC would be empty. Get real, taxes are how we pave our roads, plow the snow, pick up garbage AND teach our children. They are what support the Common Good. Buffalo winters encourage the migration of retirees more than taxes.
20
It is obvious that these declines were a natural part of economic decline and the objective should not be to find refugees to prop these cities up. Instead, these cities should work towards shrinking their boundaries or footprint and function as much smaller entities than they once were. Cities have been abandoned or died for many different reasons going back to Aztec empire and so there isn’t anything new here.
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@Isle
The Aztec empire did not naturally dwindle. It was overthrown by the Spanish bringing not only guns, but germs - the latter being self-replicating were more powerful.
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@Salix I stated that "[c]ities have been abandoned or died for many different reasons going back to the Aztecs" and so, I did not state that the Aztecs naturally dwindled.
1
Here’s a novel concept: how about New York lowers taxes and eliminates some of the numerous, onerous laws and regulations that kill business in the State and have caused an exodus from the State? That makes too much sense. So instead let’s try foolhardy and ridiculous schemes to increase the population of a dying state. Welcome to New York.
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@Mike L How do you reconcile that NYC is incredibly dynamic yet also has high taxes? (Even higher than Upstate) It seems the cause of Upstate New York’s problems are bit more complex than taxes and regulations.
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@Daniel Savino The Upstate New York economy has always been a political problem regardless of levels of taxation. The Erie Canal was Dewitt Clinton's solution to the ailing upstate economy in the early 19th century, and for close to a century it worked! The issue now is that technological progress destroyed that economic engine close to a century ago and nothing has materialized to take its place. As a former resident of the Utica/Rome area, the main issue there is primarily geography- with coastal cities like NYC, Boston, and Philadelphia there's guaranteed to be intercontinental imports, and that serves as the basis for myriad other industries. With the deprecation of the Erie Canal and the slowing of the development of the midwest, there's not much reason for wealthy merchants to go through Utica/Syracuse, and that leads to the erosion of the foundation for any local economy.
3
When undocumented immigrants go into “abandoned” or “dying” towns or communities, and as a result towns are revitalized... in many cases old residents dislike the result, in several situations calling ICE in order to swept those newcomers. It seems that in many situations, old residents appear to kill or starve those communities to death.
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This is such a valuable comment that I wish it had made the main article! It is unfortunately totally true. Thank you!
5
Population decline is desireable. Less immigrants means higher wages for the citizens already here. Depending on a steady stream of new immigrants to continually depress wages is not good.
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@Tony A larger population base means more money in circulation which leads to greater economic prosperity for all. That has been the secret to the American economic juggernaut for centuries. A stagnant, aging population does not translate into higher wages.
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@Tony-It doesn't do citizens already here any good if there is no industry.
Immigrants whether legal or illegal mainly take the jobs Americans don't want to do or are not available to do.
Instead of taking a more extreme right wing approach (or your opposites ie let everybody in and put them on welfare) lobby for a common sense immigration policy that let's enough people in to keep our economy humming, pay them livable wages and give priority to deporting terrorist and criminals first.
17
@Tony. So then are wages higher in places where there is population decline? No.
29
let these northern towns fade from memory, now that thier former industrial power is gone, let nature reclaim the land, I don't think putting refugees is the answer, we in NYC will just lose more of our tax base.
24
Pssst - if global warming is really happening, then those northern cities become the best places to live in all of North America.
If the coasts flood then the coastal dirt becomes poisoned with the oily residue of 150 million people’s worth of drowned cars and gas stations and oil tanks and whatnot.
By contrast, in the north, the rains do not flood the land. Rising oceans will never reach into that interior. That makes it a lot more suitable than the gulf coast.
The rail infrastructure for heavy shipping already exists. The electrical structures exist. The roads and highways exist.
There is ample, fertile farmland from Utica all the way to Minnesota and beyond.
And an endless, endless supply of fresh drinking water.
It rains frequently and naturally, unlike so much of the growing areas of the plains, and the dirt is dark brown, almost black. Greenery grows there, very well. A shorter winter means a longer growing season. When the plains burn and wither, the north will prosper.
An increase of 15F in the summer would render the desert SW uninhabitable. People would die of heat stroke across Dixie. The plains go from 95 to 110F on a consistent basis all summer long. And the underground aquifers are already depleting or depleted. The plains are already headed for abandonment due to lack of water in the future.
Those northern cities - they’ll be doing just fine. When NYC is a drowned, polluted wreck, the north will be heaven on earth.
29
@toulios: what if you were living
in one of "these northern towns"?
their former power is gone, i.e.:
they're good for the garbage?
what if they start reinventing themselves?
in my country, entire regions had to do that,
after they began to abandon coal, decades ago,
for purely environmental reasons.
and they definitely did not fade from memory.
you suggest: "let nature reclaim the land."
will that cause the tax base to grow back?
are you going to resettle people who are still living there?
will new nature reserves attract tourists
who will make up for lo$$e$?
btw: the majority of immigrants everywhere turn into
longterm tax payers! and they support families back home.
YOU could also begin to advocate for:
- the prohibition of tax evasion & money laundering,
which cause billions of annual damage to your society.
- financial justice.
- a global minimum wage.
- FAIR int'l trade policies, no land grabbing, biopiracy etc.
so refugees won't even have to leave their home countries.
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@toulios I am not sure NYC will lose more of its tax base but I sure like the idea of nature reclaiming these former industrial towns.
3