A Passion for Punctuation Meets a Love for All Things Greek

A visceral joy to know of others who share my passion for language.

Had the chance to see Vivian Gornick read from her (reissued) Fierce Attachment recently. She’s a national treasure, and so is her writing. More please!

Odd!. How I simply cannot relate to the ancient Greeks. Why is that? Is it because they were so SUPER smart? My goodness, these were gifted people. Their literature--almost literally--starts off with a bang. That is to say-- --with most cultures as with most PEOPLE, the beginnings are slow and unpromising. No flashes of lightning in a dark sky. Oh no! Most of the time, it's a slow slog over rocky terrain. The green fields and flourishing woods come later. And Greeks? They start off with Homer. HOMER! Arguably the greatest poet that ever lived. Producing not one but two incredible poems. Remember Matthew Arnold and his "touchstone" theory of poetry? One single line (!) that reveals--as in a sudden flash--the genius of the poet. With Homer, he calls our attention to: Kai se, geron, to prin men akouomen olbion einai. "And you, old man--we hear that, in earlier days, you were happy." Thus Achilles, talking to King Priam (who under divine protection has sought him out to ransom his son's dead body). Marvelous! That whole episode at the close of the Iliad--marvelous! Grace--mercy--forgiveness! Not common in ancient literature-- --but you find it here. And you think, "I cannot RELATE to these people. They are so totally ABOVE me." Sua tantum mirantur said Tacitus of the Greeks. "They marvel only at their own doings." And maybe that explains it. They sure don't marvel at me and MY doings. Why should they?

Great review! I had made a note to check out the book on my next visit to my local bookstore. This review pushed me to the brink: I'm making a trip to get this tome first available moment!

I wonder what Ms. Norris would say about the issue of whether to capitalize the first word after a colon, as the editing of the book review is quite catholic in its application. To wit: “It traces a decades-long obsession with Greece: its language (both modern and ancient), literature, mythologies, people, places, food and monuments — all with an absorption that never falters and never squanders the reader’s attention.” AP and Chicago style agree here, that lower-case should be used if the clause after the colon is not a complete sentence. “Over a period of nearly 40 years, which has included countless trips to Greece, Norris’s experience of the country and all things Greek has remained ever fresh: Very nearly she believes it her destiny.” Chicago style says not to capitalize unless two complete sentences follow the colon. AP allows capitalization even if only a single complete sentence follows. I assume the NYT style is following AP or has adopted for its own. Perhaps the New Yorker has its own as well. What would the Greeks have preferred? But truthfully, I must admit that aside from Ms. Norris and Lynne Truss, no one probably takes note. 😀

Having read this article, I immediately bought Mary Norris's book. Being an author myself who has written two books about Greece, one a travelogue the other historical fiction, and as someone who has traveled extensive in Greece, it was simply irresistible. I haven't been disappointed. For those of us who do thrive on ancient and modern Greece and have a love for language, "Greek to Me" is a real jewell.

Ms. Gornick does not understand Isaiah Berlin's contrast between a hedgehog and a fox. It is not about knowledge; it is about the way one views the world. And Berlin, a fox himself, did not find foxes superficial. Here is Wikipedia's explanation: "Berlin expands upon this idea to divide writers and thinkers into two categories: hedgehogs, who view the world through the lens of a single defining idea (examples given include Plato, Lucretius, Dante Alighieri, Blaise Pascal, Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Friedrich Nietzsche, Henrik Ibsen, Marcel Proust and Fernand Braudel), and foxes, who draw on a wide variety of experiences and for whom the world cannot be boiled down to a single idea (examples given include Herodotus, Aristotle, Desiderius Erasmus, William Shakespeare, Michel de Montaigne, Molière, Johann Wolfgang Goethe, Aleksandr Pushkin, Honoré de Balzac, James Joyce and Philip Warren Anderson). "

I understand this passion, and for me, the Greeks, i.e., Classical Greece, has never faltered for me after fifty years. It's an addiction; they're in many ways the high water mark of Western Civilization, even with all of their flaws. Greatest language, philosophy, and literature of all time. Norris should not, however, confuse the modern Greeks with Ancient Greece; they are two distinct groups. It's amazing how many excellent Greek scholars there are among women; Anne Carson, Bettany Hughes, Caroline Alexander, Edith Hall, just to name a few.

Why does it matter how old she is or if she likes to flirt with handsome Greek guys? More power to her!

Let us hope that neither women nor men ever "put behind us" the idea of "traveling to the Mediterranean in search of sensual experience."

Mary Norris is a woman after my own heart. I was a Classical Civilization major at Brandeis in the late '70's and studied ancient Greek. Throughout the years since then, I have always believed that a Classics education was the only kind of education to have. As was the case with others commenting here, it was my mother who had me study Classics starting in high school. I was happy to read that Ms. Norris found a focus that helped her move beyond a tragic early experience, and found continuing connection in the Greek community.

Learning ancient Greek is really worth it - the number one reason for me was to be able to read Homer in the original language. It makes a big difference - no translation can fully capture not only the words, but the rhythms of the poetry. Someone here said that Penelope's epithets become tiresome - if he is reading a translation, I can understand. But those epithets flow by like musical notes in the dactylic hexameters.

After 8 years with the Dominican Nuns and 4 years with the Irish Christian Brothers, I would agonize over whether or not to use a comma or a semi-colon. I continue to agonize.

Learning Ancient Greek in school, ( 8 years of it), we always translated “glaucopis” as blue, shining eyes, the color of the sea. Also, “glaux” in Greek means owl, this is why Athena is symbolized by a small owl.

I am Mary Norris's fan because English is my 2nd language and I enjoy her videos from New Yorker; she helps me a lot to clarify the grammar in such fun. My husband always laments that Greek should never converted to Christianity though he is only a math professor. All those marvelous Greek gods, in their esoteric epics echos, somewhat the ancient Chinese gods we learned from our elders when we were children. Definitely I am looking forward to reading her book. Thanks for the introduction.

Anyone with an interest in Greek and the classics should run, not walk, to the nearest bookstore or library and grab a copy of Daniel Mendelsohn's marvelous book "An Odyssey." In this wonderful book and his other writing, Mendelsohn weaves in fascinating insights about the influence of ancient Greek language and literature on our modern lives and culture.

I went to Greece last summer. I wish this book was published then so that I could read it on my trip. Coincidentally, I read Confessions of the comma queen on the trip!

Another useful way to learn about punctuation is to read the complete works of Charles Dickens.

I have ten minutes to write this before I go to a doctor's appointment. It wouldn't be a problem except that after the first draft, I have penchant to copy edit, which includes to evaluate where to place commas. An article in this paper a few years back described the state of the art, which is in flux. There is the formal approach that may have become obsolete a half century ago when I was in college, opposed to the current theory, that a comma is O.K if it clarifies the writer's thoughts. Other than personal messages, something like this will be read by a few who are interested, but also others who will do a quick scan and only possibly be interested in understanding my profound thoughts. (now this would be the place for a smiley face emoji) It's fun, but now I have to get to that appointment --- as soon as I do a quick syntax check.

Ms. Norris and I share a deep and abiding love of Greece, as I also have been besotted by the land, the people, the cultural feast that is Greece. Oh, and the food. Oh, and the men. “Western women traveling to the Mediterranean in search of sensual experience is one of the great clichés I thought we had put behind us.” Poor Ms. Gornick....

When learning Ancient Greek I was at first surprised to see the Greek lacked all punctuation in the various textbooks we used. Most of the texts we used dated from Oxford and Cambridge, 19th century. Some texts added periods and that was it. That was the moment I realized that punctuation is great, but not absolutely necessary either. Context is enough in most instances and the ancient Greeks knew that. Basically one looked for the main verbs and figured the sentence out from that. On Homer's use of epithets. It is important to point out that Homer's texts were originally orally presented from memory! So the speakers of these very long poems could use these epithets as mental resting points and then continue reciting the poems. You dont realize how often the epithets repeat until you see the original Greek. The epithets are marvelous but they can lose their lustre when reading them over and over again. Yes Penelope is "patient" but it can be limiting that one description so defines her.

I majored in Classics at Stanford. When asked what I was going to do with that, I calmly responded that the discipline of Classics is an integral approach to politics, economics, history, literature, and philosophy. It left me with a mind that is serving me well in these days of instant shock and incivility. Fortunately, I enjoyed the luxury of a gentleman's education, with the privilege of learning a trade in due time.

Since college, I have had this same passion for Greece and Greek both ancient and modern and am buying this book on the basis of this review. Thanks!

I've spent the last two decades of my life studying ancient Greek, and so Mary Norris's passion makes total sense to me. My mother once told me not to bother to learn a language that doesn't have a great literature. Well, ancient Greek has possibly the finest literature in western civilization, and after all Homer was the first writer in European lit. He has never been surpassed. Sometimes it's hard to remember that Achilles and Hector weren't actually real people, similar to how we feel about Hamlet. Being able to read Homer in the original language is one of the greatest pleasures and privileges of my long life.

I thoroughly enjoyed this review and wish it were longer. Now I have to read the book. thank you.

So looking forward to reading Norris's book. If they are still available, she did some delightful short videos on punctuation for the New Yorker for those interested. When I was in college in the 70's I had a couple of areas in which I needed credits, and one course I took was called Greek and Latin Word Origins of English Words. It was absolutely fascinating and almost made me wish to re-think my choice of major. A lot of the students in the class were pre-med students using it for help with medical terminology. I remember the professor giving us examples of medical neologisms that were odd combinations of Greek and Latin roots. What I especially enjoyed was the dissection of words like idiosyncratic or concatenation into their roots. You never forget them and knowing the roots helps decode other vocabulary.