Serene Jones' variety of Christianity will attract few skeptics. It will repel many believers.
Most people see no point in attending a church where the sermons are polemics against the Bible, and where it is not clear that the minister believes in God.
30
The "virgin birth" isn't just "a bizarre claim", it's an incorrect claim. The word that was translated as "virgin" does not mean a woman who has never engaged in sex. It actually means a woman who has never given birth. She may or may not have had sex in the past. Church officials along the way chose to use the incorrect translation, and the idea that carnal activity pushed one away from heaven grew into doctrine.
75
As Saint Paul said, if Christ is not risen, my faith is nothing. Jesus’ resurrection, the foundation of the Christian faith, is not the resuscitation of a corpse, but rather, the emergence of a transformed body from beyond space and time that is somehow still recognizably physical and human. The rational mind cannot absorb this, of course, but what too many have tried to do is turn it into a metaphor because that is something our minds can take in. As John Updike once said in a poem, let us not mock God with metaphor. Our faith’s foundation is a mystery. Without that mystery, there is no faith.
112
It seems that the whole thing of the "virgin" birth was based on a mistranslation from a word that simply meant "young woman," so that if Mary was Joseph's espoused wife, guess what, he was also natural father of Jesus, and that makes the whole family all the more important to us: real people!
44
She holds those positions and doesn't understand theology at all? WOW!
31
Thanks for this, Nick, and all this series. Regarding resurrection, I go with the Aramaic Bible: "Yeshua said to him, 'I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Way and The Truth and The Life; no man comes to my Father but by me alone.'" Jesus is God and anytime someone sees the Way that Jesus has modeled and lives that out, that person has come to truth and life. It does not take a physical resurrection for this to happen. I hear Jesus in you.
12
What if tomorrow someone found the body of Jesus still in the tomb? Would that then mean that Christianity was a lie?
Jones concludes:
No, faith is stronger than that.
Sorry Jones I beg to differ. If Jesus' body wasn't raised but is still lying in the tomb then we should close up shop and go home. Seriously there are better things to do on Sunday afternoons.
I think tragically Jones is missing the pinnacle, the culmination, the substance of the gospel. If Jesus was not raised from the dead, than we should take all of what Jesus spoke as foolishness.
CS Lewis concluded
"You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. He is either a liar, lunatic or Lord.
If Jesus claimed he was going to die and come back to life, but did not keep that promise, then why should we trust anything else he says.
As Paul says "And if Christ has not been raised, what we preach doesn't mean anything. Your faith doesn't mean anything either."
If Christ has not been raised then he lied about what he came to accomplish. He is a liar or a lunatic. But maybe just maybe, he kept his promise that he would rise from the dead. Maybe just maybe he is Lord.
67
Paster Jones may not realize it (or if he does is understandingly reluctant to admit it), but he's Jewish.
40
Mr. Kristof, why did you pick a non-Christian to interview on Christianity?
JimF from Sewell
51
It is Easter Sunday and the second day of Passover. My mainstream theologies and as did Ambrose Bierce I consider all Abracadabrans mainstream.
Today at the age of 71 I learned that Freemasons were a Nazi target and a great number of freemasons died along side Gypsies, Jews, and the homosexuals.Given the role of Freemasonry in the Revolution I now wonder why Deism is acceptable while a group who is American as it comes the Masons and their theologies are never mentioned.
Franklin and Jefferson were both scientists and disagreed about most everything except their one God who created and then moved on and never ever ever interfered in the affairs of men.
I read in the NYT that Eugene V. Debbs founded the American Socialists political entry.
I don't know what to do with those lying history books that tell me the Democratic nominee in the 1896 election was William Jennings Bryan an avowed socialist and antiscience biblical fundamentalist.
At 71 I am frustrated trying to tell Trumpists that today's GOP is no different from Bryan's Cross of Gold late 19th century Voodoo Economic's socialism but that is what the Ministry of Truth is all about. Isn't it?
9
Re Mr. Kristof's question, "Prayer is efficacious in the sense of making us feel better, but do you believe it is efficacious in curing cancer?":
There is actually one well-known study from 2016 in the Journal of the American Medical Association series that addresses that question, and suggests that the answer is yes. See "Association of Religious Service Attendance With Mortality Among Women", JAMA Intern Med. 2016;176(6):777-785. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2016.1615 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2521827?appId=scweb).
To paraphrase the results: Among 74,534 women participating in the study, attending a religious service more than once per week was associated with 33% lower all-cause mortality compared with women who had never attended religious services, including a 27% reduction in cardiovascular mortality and a 21% reduction in cancer mortality.
16
Calculate church time. Take that time to help the poor, the sick, old, young. Help our communities. There is massive need throughout the US. Say a prayer at end of day. Much better use of time and energy.
24
I like the "love and mystery" thing here. The literal Bible is where where we come off the rails, at least for me. I look at the sky at night or that my own body actually works starting from an egg and sperm. It then seems in humanity to run downhill. All the killing in the name of "God", seemingly more often than not quite possibly the same God. Millions of dead. Thirty Years War. It is about power and process. To each their own, and it is, but just do not blend politics into it.
15
Serene Jones, by definition, is not a Christian! The key tenet is the belief that Jesus is the son of God who was resurrected. Distilling his faith down to "everything is Love" may be a fine philosophy but it is not Christianity!
How about devoting space on your paper on Easter to an interview with a Christian?
54
@Pathfinder The interviewee is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ and is president of one of the most prestigious seminaries in the US.
40
Just another flavor of snake oil. I did enjoy the attempted side-step of the question of whether a just and merciful God would allow all the evil in the world. Slightly better than "Oh, look up there. Isn't that a helicopter going by?" But only slightly.
She should go out and buy herself an expensive pair of sneakers.
8
I believe we believe what we are taught because back in the days of "Bible Times" the authors of the Ols and then the New Testaments didn't have science classes in school.
While we can wonder about the magical significance of everything from Moses and Aaron casting down rods that turn into snakes to Jesus walking on the water. I will not speculate on virgin birth, resurrection, or ascension though these too can have explanations other than supernatural ones.
Moses and Aaron were magicians like today’s magicians. Priestly classes often used magic in religious ceremonies. Maybe Jesus learned to swim. I don't think he or other Israelites made it to the Pacific isles and learned to surf, but who knows?
It is just as wondrous that good old Einstein's black hole astrophysics is true and says as much if not more about God than does our Jewish/Christian/Muslim thoughts on the supreme being.
9
Wow! Throw out 2000+ years of dogmatic misogyny, patriarchy and literal interpretation of their holy text and Christianity sounds really great! I like the interpretation of this angry and violent religion as presented here, but, sadly, it's just not what Christianity is, either in the Bible or as lived by 99.999% of all churches and their members.
25
Perhaps someone can tell me just how Reverend Jones' version of Christianity substantially differs from not being Christian at all?
There is a very simply chain of logic that needs to be recognized: IF there is a God, and IF He is at all involved with mankind, then it should not surprise us that miraculous things would take place. After all, a God Who cannot heal or resurrect the dead cannot make any claim to have the authority to forgive sins either, can He?
Jesus is nothing more than a great teacher, philosopher, or leader if He is not indeed the Only Begotten Son of God, and if He did not indeed die on the cross and rise again. He offers nothing more than yet another ethical system...if He cannot offer us heaven too.
I could only shake my head at Reverend Jones' claim about the supposed discrepancies in the gospels about the Resurrection. FOLKS, THAT IS THE ONE THING THAT EVERY GOSPEL AGREES ON!!!! The various resurrection narratives are problematic, but every account is bombproof solid that Jesus rose from the dead--that He is no longer in the tomb, but alive!
AND IF JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD, THEN EVERY MIRACLE, EVERY SUPERNATURAL CLAIM, EVERY STATEMENT ABOUT ETERNITY THAT HE MADE HAS THE IMPRIMATUR OF HEAVEN ITSELF!
Of all the textual difficulties in scripture, there are none about the fact that Jesus rose from the dead. It is sad that Reverend Jones has any standing at all in the Christian faith, but even so, the truth remains: Jesus is alive!
28
'But I don’t worship an all-powerful, all-controlling omnipotent, omniscient being. That is a fabrication of Roman juridical theory and Greek mythology.'
Neither Zeus nor Jupiter was omniscient. Neither could predict the future. Each version had to fight his siblings and predecessors to become top God and to stay there.
Zeus and Jupiter were vain, self-obsessed philanderers, preoccupied with their reputations and status.
Greek and Roman incarnation alike was thoroughly unpleasant, untrustworthy, deceitful and capricious.
Remind you of anyone?
13
Mr. Kristof, if you are interested in discussing Christianity, why interview a person who denies the most fundamental tenet of Christianity - that God became God-man, was crucified, and rose from the dead? If you are interested in a particular faith, why interview someone who doesn’t have that faith?
30
Thank you, Mr. Kristof, for such a delightful, thoroughly relatable series of articles about faith. What a delight to see questions like these addressed — and printed! — in the New York Times.
22
Or, as the Beatles said, "All you need is love, love, love, love is all you need."
19
It sounds to this Episcopalian as if Serene Jones would be more comfortable as a member of a Unitarian Society than as the head of a Theological Seminary.
How can she disregard what Paul wrote about the Resurrection (in my favorite, the King James version, most poetic of all:
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."
And how can she overlook the change which came over the Apostles after they had seen the risen Christ? Before that they were timid and fearful, afterwards they were ready to face anything, even a death like the one their leader had suffered.
38
i guess i don't understand the need to call oneself a Christian without believing in the trappings of that religion. don't believe in a virgun birth, etc.? fine, then don't be a Christian. in this modern age where more lifestyles are acceptable than ever before, i must say i find the search for a Christianity that doesn't go against science puzzling.
15
To paraphrase a couple of quotes I like, Thomas Merton said -religious questions do not lead to answers but to deeper and more pertinent questions. And Lao Tzu said - in the pursuit of knowledge every day something is gained, in the pursuit of wisdom every day something is given up. What preconceptions, assumptions, and accepted truths do we have to give up to understand the questions the resurrection asks of us today.
11
Though myth has its place, thank God for sensible clerics who deal in the world as it is. And I say that as an atheist.
19
Reading this column has just made me feel better about Easter. As an ex-Episcopalian and now a non-Christian, I found that this piece addressed many of my own questions in a wonderfully non-dogmatic way. I am grateful.
28
In this era of Trumpism, I find it easier to believe in something I can't see, than what I am seeing right before my very eyes.
13
The thoughts of President Jones and many of the comments are of a piece. No resurrection, no virgin birth, no need for crucifixion to settle accounts with an angry God, in short no transcendence at all, just the projection of "what would I do and mean if I was God" onto the Biblical accounts, which are dismissed by President Jones as all over the place. One commenter indicates that his ratification of PJ may make him a Buddhist, indeed. The difficult reality, which PJ just dismisses out of hand, is that any kind of honest scholarship (see 3 exhaustive volumes by NT Wright on the Jesus of Nazareth as contained in the gospels) is that they do in fact teach that there was a literal crucifixion and a for real, flesh and blood resurrection -- and that all of this was accomplished to reestablish connection between the creator and the creatures. At least Mr. Kristof has the integrity (as he always does) to lay his cards on the table, he wants there to be a naturalistic, non transcendent explanation for all of that Biblical gibberish. But folks, the Roman world wasn't turned upside down and the course of human history irrevocably altered because a few first century Palestinian Jewish fisherman hit on a snappy metaphor to explain the human dilemma in relation to a god who did not in fact exist. Bishop James Pike (he of Union Seminary) commented that seminary had given him nothing to hold on to, it was sand through his fingers. Appears the sandbox is still open.
15
Here’s a question:
Is a Christian one who believes in the teachings of Christ, but not all the biblical stories, or is a Christian one who believes in all the biblical stories but forgets the teachings.
It seems the world would be a much better place if there were more of the former and a lot less of the latter.
38
Religion, as I see it, is summed up in this phrase: "It's a matter of faith." and faith is a product of upbringing and the teaching that guided our parents (or those who raised us). It is pretty much all hand-me-down, and like everything else about us today, it is being tempered by time. That is why we have many people who are "spiritual" but don't belong to churches. I am sure that today's faith is mostly a followup of "Treat me as you would treat yourself."
Kindness needs understanding and fellowship: not necessarily a building with a cross and a steeple.
4
If one believes in a SUPERnatural God, the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection follow as night follows day. Some relatively conservative Protestants, including me, see the Kingdom of God as simply another dimension with different "natural" laws, that has bushes that don't burn with flames, Ascension by Christ into another dimension, Resurrection and Virgin births. That seems to be the relationship when our dimension interfaces with the Heavenly dimension, or, Holy Ground. Perhaps despite your spiritual quandaries, that concept, approaches answering your questions. We cannot answer all the "whys?" in the behavior of a God who is vastly superior to us minuscule, though priceless, humans. So what? You have inestimable value in God's eyes and are loved more that your very, creative mind could ever imagine. May God bless your Resurrection Sunday.
7
I very much agree with the pastor - we need much more love in the world, as well as all his other responses. What does that make me? An atheist.
15
It's refreshing to this Catholic-raised atheist to hear a Christian minister discuss theology from a rational viewpoint. That's a far cry from the dogmatic approach I was subjected to in grade school and high school. Now, if the evangelicals would just tune in, we could move along in the twenty-first century.
21
"What if tomorrow someone found the body of Jesus still in the tomb? Would that then mean that Christianity was a lie?" Yes. Absolutely yes. The single most crucial act of faith required to call oneself a Christian is to accept that Christ beat death. This is the message of Easter!
I was trained as a physicist and I spent a career working in physics and computer science. There need be no conflict between faith and science. And by the way, both sides can, and often do, stray from the truth that love is the fundamental currency of the universe (there, we seem to agree). Fundamentalist Christians are worshipping an idol - a book written by men called the bible. Fundamentalist scientists, like Dawkins, deny all mystery that cannot fall into the purview of today's science. Human beings don't like uncertainty. It's really hard to stay on the path of openness, embracing uncertainty, placing love at the top of the pyramid, whilst also embracing truth in all its forms, which of course includes science. But even just to try leads to wonderful growth.
19
So I can see that with all our scientific knowledge modern theists must walk away from belief in virgin birth and resurrection. There is also no evidence of an all knowing, all powerful, sentient being who knows my name and cares what happens to me. Knowledge of right and wrong and motivation to do good things requires no cathedrals. My Roman Catholic Church has been revealed as one of the most corrupt organizations on this planet. And the bottom line in this piece is that love is what matters. So the meaning of Easter is....what again?
11
Sorry, the good reverend is simply wrong when she says that "an all-powerful, all-controlling, omniscient being" is a "fabrication of Roman juridical theory and Greek mythology." She's got that precisely backwards. The claim that "God" is all-powerful and omniscient is one of the most striking ways in which the Christian god DIFFERS from the Greco-Roman gods. In Homer, the gods are very far indeed from being either omniscient or omnipotent. When Hera wants to manipulate the humans' battle in the Iliad, she puts Zeus to sleep (by having sex with him) so he won't notice what's going on below on the battlefield. When Athena wants to bring Odysseus home in the Odyssey, she picks a point when Poseidon is off receiving sacrifices from the Ethiopians, so he won't know what's happening in the Mediterranean. These gods are very powerful and they know a lot, but they are absolutely NOT the prototype of the Judaeo-Christian idea of a transcendent, omnipotent, omniscient being.
19
"... the good reverend is simply wrong ..."
In addition to what you say, Jones has conflated monotheism and polytheism. In polytheism, there cannot be "an all-powerful, all-controlling omnipotent, omniscient being" by definition.
BTW, I highly recommend the 1963 film, "Jason and the Argonauts", for its depiction of various Greek gods bickering with each other. And their "omniscience" appears to be limited to what they can see in a pool of water (achieved with some nice special effects).
Honor Blackman is impressively commanding as Hera.
4
@me
True enough about the Greek gods, but what about the relationship to the dying/resurrecting gods of ancient near Eastern religions? Questionable omniscience, etc. aside--got it wrong about Lucifer it seems-- you cannot deny the roots of Christianity there.
2
As a lapsed Catholic who had problems believing in the Virgin birth and other creative (but dubious) stories from the Bible, I found this interview to be so refreshing.
19
Very sane comments from someone who's studied the scriptures and gets that they are apocryphal and mean to guide us, not chain us.
15
Rev Serene Jones's conversation is an interesting counterargument to the orthodox christian faith by a proponent from "within" the christian community. But this approach is confounded with many problems. The scripture teaches that the christian faith is intensely personal but at the same time, communally shared. We have the example of the apostle Paul returning to Jerusalem to present the gospel which he preached, which he received by revelation, to those who were apostles before him to secure against the event that he may have been preaching in vain. Unlike Paul, the Reverend argues for a version of faith that is entirely his own. His argument is riddled with phrases such as "For me...""To me.." "I find.." "I feel..." and he finally ends with "we need a new way of thinking". Most unfortunate, however, is what the reverend contends for is hardly faith - it requires little belief and Kristof rightly points out that it is more philosophy than faith. Indeed it is secularism secretly making its way into christianity. This is nothing new. Christianity is replete with examples of well meaning individuals seeking to strip it off the supernatural like the virgin birth, the miracles, and the literal resurrection in an effort to magnify the christian ethics and reconcile christian history with science. We have no less of an example that of Jefferson and his edited christian bible, stripped of the miracles.
7
If religion actually accomplishes something for you that you perceive is good, excellent for you.Please just don't go out and start telling others what is wrong with them and how your club is #1 in God's eyes. What sounds ridiculous: My club doesn't stand for what I believe in but I swear by it. Wanna join in on the way we perceive it should be? Sheesh.
4
At 80 years of age, I am still trying to get comfortable in my Christian slippers. Jesus is an easy choice for me. He was a Jew, who made love the central theme of his ministry. He provoked the religious and civil leaders of the day, and payed for his words by being crucified. Easter remains a mystery to me. Was he the Jewish messiah? The Gospels are key to my belief. I pray. I read works by Christian and Jewish authors, I go to church, but find most sermons boring. Pastors don’t want to deal with homosexuality, abortion, marriage between Sam sex couples, immigration, poverty in our midst, and how the sermon relates to our lives after we leave church. I guess their survival requires staying away from the things that are controversial. Easter with my spouse and our adult children was ok. We has a love,y time sharing our stories since we last broke bread. We did no go to church.
4
I like the minister’s views. It seems as if he’s admitting the basic tenets of Christianity are absurd and reforms are needed. It seems as if he’s advocating a gradual phasing out of religion and replacing it with a love for mankind and the earth. I don’t see this happening because religion is one of the major tools the ruling class uses to control and pacify the masses. Aside from that, Christianity has prophetic teachings that would claim that any such thing would be a great evil. Why that came about, I think is a very interesting question. It seems insidious that imbedded in the religion, nothing like he’s talking about could be achieved with Christianity
3
Speaking with authotiyu about this or any other stories involving the "supernaturaL" is more than a bit difficult to accept. I get the intent has always been to keep whatever part of humanity gets the message to obey laws which are the product of mere mortals, flesh and blood just like all of us.
This is a stepping stone in our evolution from flesh tearing animals to reasoning human beings. Perfectly acceptable until, as occurred earlier today, over two hundred human beings are destroyed with bombs made by those who worship another, different, god.
The structures of religions are bankrupt because religions have never been more than a tool used by those who seek order and control which must of necessity deny the truth of human evolution.
Regardless, unlike the rest of the animal kingdom, humans do not have to rely on physical strength and skill to survive. Nonetheless we still accept and resort to force as the ultimate arbiter and when push comes to shove religions of every sort, while decrying this ultimate assault on reason, have always accepted this tenet.
4
"Tell me who Jesus-Christ is for you, and I will tell you how far you are as a Christian".
Christianity without the resurrection is a natural concept for those interested in philosophy and seeing Jesus and Socrates as "preachers of good morals conveying the same universal message of love".
For those of us who are actually Christians, this is a laughable concept. This doctrine is even explicitly addressed by the apostle Paul in the Bible who explicitly explains in the epistles why this doctrine makes no sense.
There is nothing wrong with rejecting the supernatural and trying to explain God away at every chance you get. Just don't insist on calling yourself a Christian.
Critical thinking can only begin after a personal decision has been made on a choice of standard for truth. Thinking critically does not lead a Christian to embrassing Christianity Without Resurrection trademark. Departing from Christianity does.
19
There is only one reasonable answer to the question, "Do you believe in God?":
Sorry, but that question has no meaning because one term in it has not been properly defined.
5
The Virgin Birth is obviously ridiculous, if only because a womb was still required. Jesus needed to burst forth like Athena for that one to work.
Jesus's teachings never have worked on a grand scale: He certainly saved no one 'from their sins', I remember the first time I heard this. We were all still sinning, and enjoying some of it.
If you read Gibbon or other history that encounters the early Christians, you also see that they were consumed with martyring themselves, which should have been obvious was not even in concord with what Jesus said. And everybody has been religiously persecuted, and surely always will be.
I grew up in the Bible Belt in the South, and the strict fundamentalism was utterly suffocating. I don't know how I survived it, but New York City has a lot to do with it. We don't want to 'be saved from our sins', at least not nearly all things that are called that. Religions cause depression, although if it weren't for Roman slaughters at the top, the Pagan Romans, not to mention the Greeks, were very successful even while the Early Christians romped about in crazed self-flagellation. We are never taught about Roman prosperity unless we major in history, because Christian and Jew are bonded on monotheism, which is just 'god' capitalized and only one of them. I see nothing disreputable about gods of nature, especially when the best and brightest of the educated classes did not feel the need to believe any of it literally.
7
It is unfortunate, given all the real problems in the world, people spend so much time in a fantasy world, justified by “faith”.
If people spent as much effort dealing with other humans and the world as it actually is, as opposed to magical stories grounded only in faith (which is nothing more than a suspension of rational thought) humanity would be in a much better place.
13
The Virgin Birth refers to the Catholic belief that Mary's birth was virgin, not Jesus' birth.
1
@ML Rice--No, you're confused. You're thinking of the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth are two different things. The Immaculate Conception refers to the doctrine (only made official in the 19th century, I believe) that Mary was conceived "immaculately" -- that is, without the "stain" of sin. This was necessary so that, when she then miraculously conceived Jesus, he would not inherit "original sin" through her as all the rest of us supposedly do from our human parents. That the Virgin Birth refers to Jesus' birth is clear from the Apostles' Creed: "I believe . . . in Jesus Christ . . . who was conceived by the Holy Ghost; born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate"; etc. (By the way -- I'm an atheist who was brought up Presbyterian. But I've read a lot about theology, including Catholic theology.)
13
that's wrong. you are confusing it with the immaculate conception.
7
The virgin birth of Jesus has nothing to do with sexual morality. Think an inch deeper and you realize that if Jesus was born as the result of conjugal union between a man and woman, He would be fully human only. The fact that He was born of a virgin makes the birth miraculous, as it surely was. Without the resurrection, Jesus would have just been another philosopher, which He wasn’t. To dismiss the concept of the virgin birth as “nuts” and to characterize the resurrection of the body as irrelevant says a lot more about this particular minister’s grasp of theology than it says about Easter. Pandering to contemporary ideas about the legitimacy of revelation may be useful in filling pews, but it is bad religion. Faith is the evidence of things unseen.
14
But would faith not dictate that if the child was born not of a virgin but of a normal human conjugal relationship that the miracle would be just as real? Faith should not be dominos that need to perpetually stand, and if one falls, we suddenly stop believing. Consider the minister’s brilliant question of what happens if somehow we found the tomb of Christ and located the remains of a man who was probably Jesus. Should we just stop believing?
Faith in God should be deeper than needing to believe in a virgin birth. Strength of faith comes from understanding that none of the dominos matter as much as the ultimate belief.
5
Faith is the belief in things yet unseen ; the reward for that faith is seeing what you have always believed.
6
What does it mean to call oneself a this or a that, a "Christian", for example?
Can anyone who believes anything call themselves a "Christian" and actually be one on that basis alone?
Or does "being a Christian" mean there are some core beliefs, some kind of minimal orthodoxy which must be accepted?
Is it necessary to believe in original sin, the existence of a Creator, or of a historical Jesus?
Is the Bible nothing but a metaphor? If so, how is it any different than any of the many other myths and legends produced by the world's cultures across time?
Reading Rev. Jones' replies, I'm left understanding that one can believe in or not believe in practically anything and call oneself a Christian.
Then there is of course the question of who is NOT a Christian and what does that mean in specific terms?
It seems to me the notion of an eternal soul, and the passage of that soul to some kind of other "place" after death, is a core belief of Christianity. The notions of Heaven and Hell seem integral as well. I'm left asking the classic question, can a person who has lived an admirable, good, moral life, but who has not been baptized or professed to be a Christian go to heaven? If so, what is the purpose of professing a belief in salvation through Christ? Is it not necessary? That begs the question, did Christ's sacrifice and his resurrection not happen at all and it's just an inspiring story, a metaphor for some kind of personal journey?
It all seems very wishy washy.
8
@J Jencks
"Is the Bible nothing but a metaphor? If so, how is it any different than any of the many other myths and legends produced by the world's cultures across time?"
It isn't any different. Much of the New Testament is in fact simply a plagiarism of myths and legends that predated Christ by centuries - including the virgin birth.
9
@Sceptic99 - That's my belief as well. I've read many of humanity's myths and legends, and the stories of the Old and New Testaments fit in smoothly with all the rest.
My earlier comment was essentially a series of questions, each of which emerges logically from the previous, and which leave us in a place of more confusion than where we started. This is usually indicative of there being a logically fallacy somewhere early on.
1
This interview is like a breath of fresh air in a room full of carbon monoxide.
15
One of the good things about the resurrection of Jesus' physical body is that it shows the renewal of the whole material universe. Let us not be more spiritual than God: he invented matter and created it; he became matter; and he meets us in means as material as bread and wine.
And we know there was a physical resurrection, or else the authorities would have produced the body to shut down the incipient church. If one says the Disciples somehow got past the Roman guard and stole the body, do you think they would have become martyrs for what they'd know was a lie?
13
@Timotheos1 - There is a book called "Subterranean Rome". It's an archeology book focused on the amazing stuff you find in the basements of modern Roman buildings.
One thing I came away with was that the Empire at the time of Jesus was rife with a plethora of cults of all kinds. The most popular by far was the worship of Isis. But there were many others too. I doubt that the incipient Christian sect was very much "on the radar" of Roman authorities for MANY generations after the death of Jesus, let alone seen as a threat. Certainly, in the days following the crucifixion it would barely have registered with anyone.
Given that we don't have historical proof of the existence of Jesus, or of his crucifixion, it's a bit far fetched to say that we "know there was a physical resurrection".
5
It seems so pointless to talk about a subject that no one can agree on anything about. God created us just to vex us it would seem, I’m sure no one can disagree.
2
During a time of immediate family and personal tragedy and a few hours from the saddest funeral I've ever experienced, our old family Methodist preacher (by then a Bishop living in another city) asked to meet with me in my former boyhood bedroom at my Mother's home when I arrived from another state. Before he began to speak, I felt compelled to say "Dr. Crawford, you need to know I am full of doubts." He replied, "So am I, So am I." It's impossible to describe the relief I received from his response. As a then young Zoology professor, I was released from years of stereotyping "true believers" as impossible of genuine reason and discussion. And, somehow, I also got past my schoolboy's skepticism of all Dr. Crawford's Sunday sermons when I was growing up. Mr. Kristof's column has generated much good discussion and, does indeed, allow us to remember the power of thinking freely and knowing the truth of scientific results and methods over time as well as the truth of our own personal existence. We live in a complex world, just like everyone who came before us.
13
Like many readers replying to this column, I too grew up in a Catholic school setting of the 1950’s, with all the superstitions and mostly Irish nuns and priests who taught secular things very well but even by 7th or 8th grade, the core beliefs of the church seemed absurd.
No matter the religion, the intent was to promote social control over human inclinations to resort to violence and anarchy. Before the Age of Reason when philosophers came forward to enunciate a path to a good life, religion had to be invented.
But in modern societies, religions tend to do more harm than good but some sincere believers like Pastor Jones clearly have a peaceful coexistence with non-believers in religion like me.
Vive le difference!
12
The refreshing view here is that religion should not be so much about only following a particular established doctrine but more about how faith should be used as a vehicle to expand one's own view to be more accepting. The belief that there must have been a resurrection as a foundation for belief is an all or nothing game. So much of what is being foisted upon the followers of some churches is an either you are in or you are out theology. Given that sentiment, you don't have to show me the door. I will find my own way.
8
Refreshing take on something gone very stale. Made my day.
7
Serene Jones represents the new mainline Christianity: a chaplaincy to the American liberal upper middle class. Spiritual, but not religious. Post-Christ Christianity - dismisses the Resurrection, but convinced that the crucifixion was really best understood as a lynching. Smugly dismissive of her own tradition, and equally certain of her modern dogma.
14
James, what "modern dogma" do you claim she offered other than "act ethically"?
8
@jonathan - For one, that the crucifixion is best understood as a lynching. Or that the virgin birth is a "bizarre" claim. That prayer "manipulates" God. There is more in common here with an intersectional, post-modern lit curriculum than with Christianity.
I'm glad she is in favor of "act ethically" - but that is thin gruel. All she offers here is the waiter's prayer from Hemingway's "A Clean, Well-Lighted Place":
“Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name thy kingdom nada thy will be nada in nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us not into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.”
9
This reverend displays exactly why main line Christian denominations are dying. He says he is a man of Faith but doesn't seem to believe in anything. The Resurrection of Jesus is a basic tenent of the Christian faith. Believing Jesus was an awfully nice fellow does not make you a Christian.
Happy Easter to those who believe Jesus died for our sins and rose again on the 3rd day. To the author and the reverend, have a nice day.
19
@John "This reverend" is a woman.
7
@Ron Goodman - If John wants to believe that Serene is a man, who are we to disagree?
8
Guess I was more focused on the agnostic message of the person rather than gender. Does it matter? The philosophy described explains why beautiful old Protestant churches make great venues for concerts and art exhibition. The faithful have moved on.
7
As an atheist and Zen Buddhist, I rather like his column, spiritual but also scientific in nature. The message? Love....that’s all ! Simple and logical. The metaphors make perfect sense too! Kudos to the author and subject! Peace to all beings!🙏🏻😊
24
Mr. Kristof asks: "For someone like myself who is drawn to Jesus’ teaching but doesn’t believe in the virgin birth or the physical resurrection, what am I? Am I a Christian?"
My answer is, Metachristian. No need to worry, there are Christian sects that are Antitrinitarian.
Virginity is a man’s fantasy. Why in the world should it matter any more than a man’s first time? Control.
9
Well that was a nice dance away from the realities that IS Xtianity, in its past or present forms.
Its great to simply ignore all the doctrines, dogma and generally believed concepts about what Xtianity IS, to the majority of its adherents. Its great that Jones made up his own version. Which is in fact, very American, very much in the American spirit of taking pieces of various beliefs and positing a newer made-up, but claimed original version. Look at the Americanized version of Buddhism. About as close to actual Buddhism, as McRibs is to the version of a BBQ master who has spent 1K hours perfecting.
Of course Xtianity is at a crossroads. All Religions are at one, all the time, as are their adherents. At the decision point of continuing on in the fantasy, so mostly to stay safe in a community that typically is not tolerant of non-belief, or other beliefs. Or to leave the fantasy and made-up behind. But like Jones, take a few of the favorite parts, plus a little of the God part...just in case. To hedge ones bet.
Better to keep belief in some sort of Big Guy/Gal in charge, just in case. Because to go all Atheist...whoa! That's crazy talk. Thats just a line too far. No one in charge? Too much, too much. (check the polling)
So Jones, like most Religious, has made a God in his image. Like most American so-called "liberal" Xtians. Has made a God in a form he would most like to meet and hang-with.
Ive got no skin in the God game. But if you're making yours up, admit it.
6
Jones is a “she”.
1
An interesting columns, as almost all of Mr. Kristof’s are. But I have to say that the headline about the Virgin Birth can only be viewed as click-bait, given that only 1 or 2 sentences in the interview dealt with it.
This column was about so much more ...
2
The virgin birth is also a bizarre claim because of long blood lineage listed from Adam down to Jesus’ father, Joseph. If Joseph didn’t spawn Jesus, what does that blood lineage matter?
4
Thank you Rev. Jones and Nick Kristoff for making the message of Easter one for all religions and all times. Rodgers and Hammerstein put the problem of hate, and presumably the solution of love to words and melody in "You've got to be carefully taught." It is up to every family, every village, every government, and yes, every religion, to carefully teach lessons of love.
12
Religions are social and political organizations founded on superstitions. The only question one need answer regarding one’s belief is whether one believes in a willful god. If god is not willful, then there essentially is no god and what we consider god (at the best of times) is simply an emotional appreciation of the connectedness (call it ‘love’ if you want) of everything. If you do believe god is willful, and therefore capable of controlling what happens, then god should be hated and dreaded. Or perhaps you think god’s power is deferential to the devil’s power. It seems impossible to me to believe in the Christian god without also believing in the devil - which turns the entire theology into nothing more than a comic-book battle of superheros.
11
It is becoming increasingly clear that serious reevaluation of many parts, not all, of Abrahamic thought is called for. It is now obvious to many that the three religions of Abraham must reconnect with the cosmic GOD of their origins by reformulating their theologies. They need to face up to the fact that institutionally they have been and continue to be the source of the evil they so well define.
This redefinition will call for a reinvention of the sacred. The Cosmos is waiting. The planet is waiting. Only then will we humans find the emergence of a new civilizational social/political/economic paradigm, one that will enable future generations to live in a biologically consonant relationship with Planet Earth and the cosmos.
The rewards in recognizing this redefinition will be enormous. The pain of not recognizing it will be beyond the human imagination; as within the next several generations our society bears witness to the beginning of the extinction of our species.
www.InquiryAbraham.com
7
Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God. He lived a life free of any sin, and voluntarily laid down His life in the end. His mortal body lay for days in the tomb, and then Jesus took up His body again -- now glorified and immortal - in the resurrection. Hundreds of people saw and interacted with Jesus after His resurrection. Thanks to His sacrifice and victory over death and sin, we have the sure hope that we may live again after this life is over. On this Easter Sunday, I can only thank Jesus Christ for His matchless love and the complete accomplishment of His unique mission to save His brothers and sisters.
9
Your little sermon doesn't include any Bible quotes.
In particular, where does the Bible say that "_Hundreds_ of people saw and interacted with Jesus after His resurrection"?
(I'm specifically asking about the *number* of people. And please cite the Bible translation you are referring to.)
1
Thank you once again for an excellent piece. Over the years (I am now an old man), your question to Reverend Jones "Am I a Christian?" has evolved for me into "Is God a Christian?" That is, is it really possible, not to say logical (as I was taught), that there is only One Way to God? In the book "Lost Horizon" there is asked a question, "If we find that one religion is true, must we conclude that all others are false?" Inescapably that raises the question, are all religions true; do all religions, like languages, say the same thing; do all religions lead to the same Goal; are all religions inspired by the same God, the only God there is? It is human enough for us to assume that "mine is true and yours is false," but does that make it true? Regarding the Virgin Birth, I believe the spiritual basis is Isaiah (Yeshayahu) 7:14 which reads "... a young woman shall conceive and bear a son ...". If so, I wonder how (and why) "young woman" became "virgin".
4
"Those who claim to know whether or not it (the Resurrection) happened are kidding themselves."
Actually, those who claim to know that it did happen have the burden of proof of presenting evidence to demonstrate that the Resurrection occurred. It's exactly the same as if I claimed to have gone to Neptune last week- I have the burden of proof, not the (correct) doubters.
This is just another example of religion's shell game of claiming non-disprovable garbage and selling it as gold.
7
How should one act or live?
That's the question religion, philosophy, education, culture, and secular laws attempt to answer or deal with.
The best answer seems to be compassionately, lovingly, and kindly, no?
Religion, by and large, agrees. But how do you force yourself to love your enemy? How do you really forgive a murder or rape of a family member?
Apparently, some people achieve these saintly mind-sets; but the rest of us, the vast majority, suffer with negative feelings, emotions, and an irresistible need for revenge without relief.
Religion may have moved the needle a little closer towards benevolence, but our dire, hateful situation remains largely unabated. In short, it didn't work very well.
Should we, therefore, abandon religion? My answer -- as questionable as yours -- is yes.
Folks, the magic words ain't working, at least, not well enough to bother about keeping. It was a noble experiment that failed. You gotta know when to call it a day and move on.
Move on to what? My guess would be to sound ethics, rational laws, science, and physical improvements in our lifestyles (better healthcare, living conditions, jobs, etc.).
This move may not save us either, of course. And if not, we'll have to move on yet again. Perhaps we are eternally lost, but let's admit that no help is coming from heaven, a fantasy land dreamed up by Bronze Age goat-herders. Time to grow up spiritually.
5
No thanks, Rev. Serene. You’ve reduced a mystery that has developed over 2000 years essentially to 21st century politics. I don’t have time for that.
12
Recommended reading for both Kristof and the reverend: Philip Roth's short story, "The Conversion of the Jews." Basically, you shouldn't hit people about God.
2
Thanks Nicholas. Good to hear from a religious figure who is sane.
5
All of the laws- of - nature and physics- busting aspects of Christianity are bizarre. Faith is one thing, magical thinking is another.
5
Muck like Joel Osteen and other prosperity Gospel hacks, this "Reverend" begins with modern people and tries to subordinate ancient wisdom to the concerns of contemporary people, specifically contemporary Americans. Perhaps the vaguely nationalistic gods of one political party or another might track so conveniently with our agenda, but no God that actually transcends humanity would. If this is the way people think of God today, perhaps we should leave Notre Dame just the way it is.
8
I always found the virgin birth story to be strange and illogical. Other religions feature an iconic leader who is a prophet of God but the founders of Christianity decided to make their icon an actual son of God with an earthly virgin as his mother. The mother couldn't be an innocent young maiden so they made her a married virgin which sounds oxymoronic. Why had Joseph not consummated the union?
1
When the angel Gabriel asked Mary to be the mother of God, she was unmarried. She was engaged to Joseph, but had not yet married or moved in with him.
6
Reverend Serene Jones has enough sense to dismiss superstitious mythologizing around the virgin birth and physical resurrection, but it remains a mystery why she needs faith in God. All her expressed humanistic values are held by nonbelievers too. If you’re an intelligent, thinking, rational person, why cling to the God myth? “God” is no more than a fundamentally tautological answer to the unknowable origins of the universe. Who created God?
5
No one created God. God is the first mover, the being existing before all space or time, outside of creation. Atheism’s big logical fallacy is its claim that there was no first mover, just secondary effects.
7
It is the dogma that makes Christianity interesting and is not a stumbling block except for those who want things exactly their way. And yes, like many scientific ideas of the past and present, theological ideas are challenging and prone to missuse by those who cannot deal with mystery and ambiguity (both theists and Atheists alike). An executed dreamer on a cross would not have been exactly what 1st cent. Jews would have accepted had they not been convinced that Jesus was sent by God. Something beyond good vibes goaded them to spread his ideas and die for them.
10
I hope there will be an interview with an anti-abortion advocate soon. With all the suffering and environmental problems in the world, it’s so crazy that people use religion (a code of their morals) as a reason for women to have unplanned, unprepared for babies that will probably have unhappy lives.
2
Nick, I think you ought to stop having these "conversations" with "religious" leaders who seem to have a very skewed and/or limited view of the actual theology they are spouting off about.
This article comes across as being anti-Catholic (and anti-Christian), and it's been published DELIBERATELY just in time for Easter, for maximum offensiveness.
Can you let us know when you're planning to publish a column that questions Judaism at Passover or Rosh Hashanah, or Islam during Ramadan - because I'd REALLY like to read that and the comments on that!
Ms. Jones is Protestant, yet she is presented here as speaking for Christians of all kinds, and frankly, as a Catholic, I am offended by her complete lack of knowledge of Catholic theology and her utter lack of respect for Catholicism.
It's just sooooo easy to pick "virgin birth" and "resurrection" and have someone like Ms. Jones trample it all as being (essentially) fake simply because SHE doesn't believe it. Last I looked, she was not the arbiter of religious belief systems in this country, nor in the wider world.
Nick, I honestly expect better from you. Why don't you stick to what you do well, and leave the picking-apart of religious beliefs to others? What good do you believe comes from this?
Or will we soon have a column written by you that delves into, and then disses, all the "irrational" religious beliefs of the people in every overseas country you visit?
17
Exactly. People pick on "virgin birth" and "resurrection" because they are so easy to pick on. Time to move on and base our belief systems on real examples and leave the things that did not happen behind.
2
Please explain the basis for your certainty that these things did not happen. All the historical evidence indicates they did.
6
@Erica CT The certainty is founded on the fact that the "evidence" was developed mostly by poor uneducated folks over 2,000 years ago - not long after the smartest people on earth figured out that the world was not flat.
1
Here’s a less provisional take;
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-challenge-of-easter-1458916153?redirect=amp#click=https://t.co/4B8ZADYSEl
I'm forever thankful to my parents that they raised me in a secular household with a clear moral center. I don't have be burdened by discussions like these that are rooted in a belief system obviously created by people in a medieval time when so little was understood about the world.
6
Nice interview but the Perugino painting steals the show. This painting by Raphael’s teacher presents the flesh denying, sin fixated, self flagellating text of the Church in terms that more reflect the innate experience of the Italians. The climactic scene of the New Testament is rendered as a tableau of beautiful dolls bathed in the most tender light of Umbria or Tuscany or Perugia. All is moist sensual delight, and melancholy at the brevity of it all and the tiny scope of human affairs.
Behind the ideational content which was commissioned by a bishop or nobleperson, lies a true representation of life, love and loss not too different than Jean Antoine Watteau’s lovers in his “Island of Cythera”. Phenomenal!
4
"At the heart of faith is mystery. God is beyond our knowing, not a being or an essence or an object."
And yet, humans continue to tell the world what this unknowable god wants, knows, feels, expects, and will do to everyone eventually.
I don't get it, and haven't since I questioned my Sunday school teacher in the 5th or 6th grade about the miracles in the bible.
The "lessons" in the bible about loving your neighbor and doing things to help those in need are fine. The problem for me are all of the "lessons" where we are instructed to do harm to others as in Psalm 137:9.
I like minister Jones version of the bible. I'm not so sure many people today would buy it.
6
I attended Catholic Schools until university. It was always very confusing how there could be so many religions in the world, but that the only "true" religion was Catholicism. In order to accept this dogma, we were expected to believe in impossible miracles. Spirituality is certainly a virtue that, if everyone embraced it, would make the world a better place. Is the Catholic Church the best vehicle to achieve this? That's similar to asking if commercial fisherman, with no taxes, accountability or regulation, would be the best managers of our ocean resources. No worries, we will always have the miracle of 5 loaves and 2 fish.
1
My father, a believing Jew of the very first water, used to take me into churches on occasional Sundays when I was a kid, believing that it would be good for my education.
While employed as a senior center and homeless shelter director, I frequently attended baptisms, weddings and funerals in black and white churches and even assisted in some.
As usual, my very good father was as right as rain.
You can learn a lot seeing a bit of the other side.
5
The word Easter is derived from the name of a fertility goddess and the celebration at this time of year rejoices in the rebirth of life after the cold, dead winter. Life eternal is achieved and celebrated through offspring, generation after generation. It is such a wonderful feeling that humans are a part, albeit a small and short-lived one, of this amazing existence. How cool is that! What a shame that we need to reduce this breathtakingly natural cycle of life and its renewal to our little human terms and constraints; a powerful man sitting on a sky-throne and another man dying and coming back to life (no surprise there that fertility is reduced to a male-only personification: some might even cite womb-envy).
If we must personify the glory that is nature and feel compelled to pick only one person to represent it, I’ll go for a Mother any day. Can you imagine how mothers, women, and girls (actually all humans) would be treated in this world if we all did.
8
And who created nature? God.
5
And who created the concept of a personified god, humans. Don’t forget, Eve was derived from Pandora, and the Greek gods had relations with mortals who gave birth to many, many demi-gods. Mother Nature is as much a personification as any conceived of deity. It, however, does affect humans as to how we choose to see, to personify. I stand by, if we must personify nature, let us choose a Mother. It’s not either or; or who came first.
1
I went to Union Seminary ages ago and it is hard to imagine Henry Pitney Van Dusen who was President then saying that Christianity is collapsing. It is nice that Serene Jones accepts this and defers a solution to future generations. My own sense is that we are moving almost at warp speed to a universal spirituality which will be a basis for a positive period following the denouement of our inheritance now underway.
3
If belief in the physical resurrection and the virgin birth and cancer-curing prayer and the existence of an actual afterlife aren't necessary for living a life of faith, then it seems to me that this is simply a powerful expression of LOVE that transcends the trappings and superstitions of Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter). A lot of non-Christians and former Christians and atheists (like myself) can get behind this. The only thing that really matters is that we choose to accept and be good and kind to one another. Some of us don't need a god or a savior for that; others may see god in the human expression of love. Again, does that really matter? Let us love one another, and whether you come to love through Jesus or Muhammad or the Torah or a compassionate nonbelieving heart, it's all the same to me. Happy Easter, all.
10
“The virgin birth only becomes important if you have a theology in which sexuality is considered sinful. It also promotes this notion that the pure, untouched female body is the best body, and that idea has led to centuries of oppressing women.”
This alone should be reason enough for all women and the men who support their liberation from such nonsense to abandon traditional Christianity all together.
As for a Christianity that encompasses this minister’s ideals, I’d welcome such a Christianity but adherennts of it are few and far between. Until they do a better job of publicly and forcefully denouncing and seizing the reigns of evangelical power currently choking human evolution, it’s best we all work to put Christianity back in churches where it belongs and remove it completely from the public and political spheres.
6
The Catholic doctrine of the virgin birth has nothing to do with being anti-sex. Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman is how God creates humans, a pretty big endorsement! But Jesus was God, and God the father in his wisdom chose to create this unique human, a God-man, by a different means. Mary was “overshadowed” by God the Holy Spirit to become pregnant with Jesus. Thus God chose to work directly in creating Jesus in Mary’s womb, rather than working through a human father.
As further proof that Catholicism is not anti-sex, we have the doctrine of Mary’s own conception. She was conceived by sexual intercourse between her mother and father. But to prepare her to be the mother of God the son, God the father provided that at her conception she would not inherit the predilection towards sin that we all have since Adam and Eve sinned. Thus Mary, born from the sexual intercourse of her parents, was born “immaculate.” This is the doctrine of the immaculate conception.
Catholicism teaches that God created sex as a joyous and grace-filled way for humans to participate with him in the wonder of creation. To become like God in that way is one of God’s greatest gifts to humans. It is only our corruption of sex - delinking this great power from its God-given purpose - that the Church opposes. Experience shows that with this de-linking, sex can devolve to the grossest of abuse, degradation, and violence.
5
"I often feel like we are in the middle of another reformation"
Or maybe we're just further along dismantling a bunch of superstitions packaged to look like something real. Much like we've dispensed with Thor and his ilk.
6
Much is said about how one flavor or another of Christianity is not "Christian" by the definitions of another flavor. A longer view might be that a central purpose of religions in general is to define "the other." We are willing to torture, maim and kill for the sole reason of "otherness." Wrong religion? Kill 'em! For eons tribalism was survival positive. Now it's so embedded in our genetics that it overwhelms that other gift from evolution, intelligence. Belief systems that reinforce tribalism might qualify for a contemporary original sin.
6
Isaac Asimov wrote that something was lost in translation regarding the "virgin birth," and that the word "virgin" was substituted for "young woman/maiden" by one writer or another during one of many translations of ancient texts.
5
If one reads the actual passage in Isaiah, it is obvious the”prophesy” has nothing to do with a Messiah. Further, the word “virgin” is a mistranslation; the actual words were “young woman”. The whole virgin birth idea is a fraud. We might today say it is fake news.
2
I like what I’m hearing: jettison Resurrection, Virgin Birth, prayer, Heaven and Hell, wrestle against climate change, violence, authoritarianism, gender oppression. Take Religion as a symbol. Continuing Rev. Jones’ thinking a little further, maybe God is the good side of the collective consciousness of humanity? I could almost abandon my atheism for that.
6
I am not religious, but she's certainly a compelling, thoughtful woman.
3
For the most eloquent antidote to the teaching of Reverend Jones, I submit the following:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/where-justice-love-and-mercy-meet?lang=eng
1
The are no supernatural beings. There is no resurrection. Virgin birth is imposible. There is no heaven, no hell. People do not have souls that continue after death. There is no such thing as sin. Sorry, but there is nature! Give it a try.
10
So why do people follow societal rules? Why not wantonly kill, maime and steal? What compels us to live a life devoid of these things? If there is no God, than you are suggesting you are the highest moral authority you know. Yet somehow we know inside our deepest beliefs that we are not the highest moral authority.
Logic almost forces us the accept there is something higher than ourselves driving us and our consciousness. Otherwise we’d be living in total anarchy and chaos. I call that God and I personally believe.
6
You are absolutely wrong. I am as atheistic as they come, but I’d put my “moral code” up against anybody’s. It is you religious people that need some restraining mechanism like “ Heaven”. We get along in society because you have to or you will be ostracized. We don’t want that. There is no drive to kill and maim. For that you need your religious leader telling you to eliminate the non believers.
1
We sometimes hear that "moralistic therapeutic deism" is supplanting Christianity. Sadly, some of the views expressed in this column serve to do just that. In my estimation, there are other intellectual Christians, such as Bishop Robert Barron, who offer far more persuasive perspectives.
6
Thanks for this honest discussion of religion. Only when humans get as close to reality as possible, and away from mythology, will we be able to have "peace on earth." Being able to understand true "reality" may never be possible for humans. But guessing and hoping we can understand it with a god is absurd. It is obviously a horrid desire of humans to find an "ultimate" answer to the "why" question. We won't get the answer, ever.
Just read this below by professor Rory Fellows at the University of London:
"According to the Vedic or Hindu pantheon there are at least thirty million gods; add to this all the gods of animist religions that have existed on every continent, and most likely were the foundations of all human social organisations, the names of whose gods are forgotten now; and then add on the famous gods of the ancient world around the Mediterranean and Europe, the Roman, Greek and Egyptian pantheons; and last but not least the God of the Torah, Allah, God, Jesus possibly, however it is named… "
1
The older I become the more I believe that Jesus came to correct so much of what was written in the Old Testament. So much violence in the Old Testament. Promoting the death of those who didn't follow your faith, asking a father to sacrifice his son to please you, naming one group of people has His chosen people, the murdering of others in His name and the continual abuse of women. Oh, how the Evangelicals love to pull out the Old Testament to promote bigotry and violence against those who dare to oppose them.
5
If Christians don't believe in the resurrection, then there isn't any point to Christianity as a religion. It would be a nice philosophy--love each other, and act towards others as you would like to be treated. Nice, but not much to that. The divinity of Christ is essential to the devotion, dedication of believers, and therefore to the salvation of humankind. Snarky "I don't know" answers belong to the uncommitted, the indifferent, the meaningless who mingle and poison true love. Beware.
11
So, the president of Union Theological Seminary seems not to believe in the Nicene Creed. Seems a bit sketchy to me.
12
Someone needs to explain to both Jones and Kristof that there is a difference between a government sanctioned execution, in this case crucifixion, and a lynching, the extrajudicial killing by civilians.
Unfortunately, such a lack of understanding and clarity damages the credibility of two otherwise intelligent, articulate people.
7
The nature of the human animal is to kill, lie, and be a sexual predator. That is still very apparent in the day we live in. There are three types of thinking that I came up with 4 decades ago, namely: Repair, Repentance, and Rehabilitation that come from the political, religious, and educational institutions, who think that if you just get people a job, get them to find religion or God, or educate them, you can change behavior. Around the world, we have had, and still have, all of that, as political and religious people of many persuasions, just become more divided, and often either kill, put in jail, or try to use a terrorist attack, or genocide to get rid of masses of people. With education, unfortunately, there has been higher rates of sexually transmitted diseases around the world, obesity, more outbreaks of contagious diseases, conspiracy theories, etc., so no, education is not doing it for the masses. In fact, the science of evolution shows that things don't necessarily evolve for a better outcome, they often become worse. That is sadly where we are at in the world at this time.
3
Where to begin?
The evidence that a jesus actually existed and the events described has been well debunked on all sides, except by "believers". Follow the "Journey of the hero" model almost to the letter. From the extraordinary birth to a resurrection.
10 Christian myths:
MYTH No. 1: The idea that Jesus was a myth is ridiculous!
MYTH No. 2: Jesus was wildly famous – but there was no reason for
contemporary historians to notice him…
MYTH No. 3: Ancient historian Flavius Josephus wrote about Jesus
MYTH No. 4: Eyewitnesses wrote the Gospels
MYTH No. 5: The Gospels give a consistent picture of Jesus
MYTH No. 6: History confirms the Gospels
MYTH No. 7: Archeology confirms the Gospels
MYTH No. 8: Paul and the Epistles corroborate the Gospels
MYTH No. 9: Christianity began with Jesus and his apostles
MYTH No. 10: Christianity was a totally new and different miraculous overnight
success that changed the world
2
O.k. to recap:
resurrection - no. Tomb as symbol - yes.
The crucifixion - a lynching.
Easter then - a story that love triumphs, so be hopeful
God is not all good, all knowing and all powerful.
God is 'vulnerable' and says 'be good'.
Jesus may still be in the tomb but that does not matter.
No virgin birth.
Prayer can not cure cancer.
Heaven? Who knows.
Hell. Definitely not literally. Maybe its the absence of love.
Religious structures today are bankrupt.
Something else will emerge.
Nuff said. As for me, I'm so so thankful I'm not entombed in the mind numbing dogmatic slumber that is religion. As someone said "all you need is love", to which I'll add knowledge of science, music, art and nature - all emerging at an awesome pace. Let's go there.
7
Union Thueological Seminary has always been on the liberal side. But it is a voice that sometimes is drowned out by the evangelicals and conservatives. In theology, there is not right or wrong, but a set of beliefs that some accept and others reject.
Freedom of religion allows for different beliefs. In so many wars, persecutions and purges occurred when the idea was believe my way or suffer.
Not all will like this column and interview, but for many, including this retired clergyman, it is uplifting.
3
What is the point of continuing to use any religion as a vehicle for the expression or exploration of human morality?
Every religion that has been, is, or will be is pure mythology and all are guilty of child abuse, mental and physical; all are guilty of the abuse and subjugation of women as chattel and second class citizens. This barely scratches the surface of course, but it’s clear we can not rely on these texts as moral guides.
For how many more decades or centuries will individuals continue to wrestle with these ancient books (whose authors thought the world was flat) to try to mitigate their ugliness and nonsense through endless reinterpretation; softening, remolding and cherry-picking the contents until they’ve effectively rewritten their own “holy” books. In 2019, in a first world country, it is pathetic to listen to grown people have a discourse within this tired, worked-over frame.
Folks: we die and that’s it. Post-death is the same state as pre-birth. It’s amazing we are here at all.
I know it’s small consolation, but let’s have some dignity and deal with life and death in real terms. Let’s respect ourselves enough to do the moral thing for its own sake. Let’s stop using outdated guides that saddle us with unnecessary delusions more than they clarify deep questions.
Plenty of metaphor available within nature and the spring season to talk about human physical and emotional renewal, let’s leave the gore of Christianity behind us please.
5
I find it increasingly odd when I read about the mental gymnastics that people do in order to rationalize and keep their faith in god and religion.
I want to state the obvious - with no resurrection of Jesus, Christianity is a lie. If you do not believe he was resurrected you are not a Christian. That said, I find the mythology and moral lessons of Christianity to be beautiful and worthwhile. But there are stories from Greek mythology that I find beautiful, too. I'm particularly fond of the tale about Baucis and Philemon. It's been my favorite since I was in my early teens.
2
Unfortunately, the “faith” presented in this article is not the orthodox Christian faith of millennia, which can be seen if you cross reference the arguments made here with our creeds (starting with the Apostles and Nicene) but something else.
9
"Do I have a faith? We are each free to believe what we want, and it's my view that the simplest explanation is that there is no God. No one created the universe and no one directs our fate. This leads me to a profound realization: there is probably no heaven and afterlife either. I think belief in an afterlife is just wishful thinking. There is no reliable evidence for it, and it flies in the face of everything we know in science."
- Stephen Hawkins, "Brief Answers to the Big Questions", Page 38
Easter is one of the beautiful traditions passed down by civilization in its desire for collective redemption. In the age of Hawkin's "Big Bang" and "Black Holes" cosmology, and with the advances of DNA genealogy, Easter is still a good day for families to gather, and share the good side of old human folklore.
8
It's Stephen Hawking.
2
As a non religious person I found this column fascinating and rewarding. Thank you for the interview, Nicholas Kristof.
If only more of us were able to distinguish between the trappings and mythologies of religion and underlying message we'd have a much better, more peaceful world.
15
"At the heart of faith is mystery. God is beyond our knowing."
If civilization had decided to accept these first statements, --accepting the unknown and the unknowable--we would still be living the same as when the three "indispensable" books of the three major religions appeared. I'd rather not have my son's life be "nasty, brutish and short."
1
I found Rev. Jones interpretation not only dissapointing but also theologically shallow - which given her knowledge is very surprising. Yes, the Gospel writers do not describe HOW the resurrection happened - but they are adamant that it DID and that Jesus rose physically from the dead. So, yes, if the physical body of Jesus would be found - our faith would be in vain, and to quote Paul, we should be most to be pitied. Christianity without the empty toomb and Jesus physically risen has been tried before - and it failed. For all her eloquence is 21century version of von Harnack, Bultmann and Zoële and others. Jesus is not anyone different than our latest intellectual, political hero whom we can discard we we get tired. The amount of times Dr Jones uses “I” is telling. As Calvin used to say: the human mind is an endless factory of idols. Learned professors are not exempt from that sin. He is risen indeed!
102
@Kazimierz Bem And as Mark Twain once concluded, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
12
I agree with your conclusions about the necessity for a physical resurrection but not your faith in its occurrence.
4
Why should it surprise us today when we think we can define ourselves however we want that Dr. Jones can gladly call herself a Christian while essentially denying the tenets of orthodox Christianity which have been essentially reaffirmed for the last 2000 years? She can't even recite the Apostles' Creed in good faith. This just shows you that having multiple degrees from divinity school doesn't make one a Christian, but a confession of the "faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 1:3).
49
@Ben Tobin
Whether it be Mainline Protestant ministers such as Serene Jones or perhaps 75% of today's Jesuits, "Christians" who preach a religion devoid of belief in the supernatural seem concerned with appearing unsophisticated, should they embrace beliefs such as the Virgin Birth and the bodily Resurrection of Christ. Meanwhile, I am reminded of Jesus' words: "Lest you believe as little children, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." When I think about the death of people I love, and the thought of never being reunited with them, I'll happily cast my lot with the little children rather than with Serene Jones et al.
6
@Ben Tobin - Yup, it's all about the dogma, Ben.
3
@Utahagen
I'm not so sure that the reverend is concerned with appearing unsophisticated; it may be that she can't resolve the cognitive dissonance of believing the impossible to believe. Instead of having the moral courage to go where her reason would take her - to agnosticism or atheism - she ends up in the odd place of compromised, watered-down, new-agey philosopy.
7
It's a bit shocking to me how far this veers from what
Christianity usually means. First, there IS a resurrection story in Mark (unless you are somehow redacting Mark based on some scholastic standard that I am not aware of). All of the gospels have a resurrection story (I just read them all this morning). They all agree that it was a woman/women who came to the tomb, found it empty, saw angels, and that Jesus then appeared to the disciples. The other details vary. Paul spends much of 1 Corinthians 15 arguing for the resurrection from the dead because some Christians were apparently going down the road that this woman has gone down. Contrary to her claim that believing in an afterlife is unnecessary or potentially harmful, Paul claims that if we have hope in Christ in this life only we are "of all men most miserable" (1 Corinthians 15:19).
I respect Mr Kristoff as a caring, good man, and allow this woman her beliefs. But there comes a point where religion fades into philosophy, because no one is willing to take the risk of belief in something "that does not match with our experience." It is a risk, but it is a joyful one. It also allows for a God of true kindness and justice. In the world of this theologian, children who starve or are beaten to death might never be resurrected to experience a better life. The God of this minister has the potential to truly be as unfair and arbitrary as this life can sometimes be. The God of the resurrection provides "a lively hope" for all.
152
@Jesse Bardsley
You say the following: "It also allows for a God of true kindness and justice. In the world of this theologian, children who starve or are beaten to death might never be resurrected to experience a better life."
Why would God allow those children to be starved or beaten in the first place?
20
@Jesse Bardsley
"Paul claims that if we have hope in Christ in this life only we are 'of all men most miserable'"
Yet Paul is wrong, isn't he. I don't have any such hope and I am far from miserable. The most miserable people are those who are sick or poor or abused or hungry or alienated from their fellow humans, not people who simply don't believe everything you believe.
15
@DW "The most miserable people are those who are sick or poor or abused or hungry or alienated from their fellow humans," this includes most billionaires.
1
Serene Jones is not a Christian if she does not believe in the basic tenets of the faith.The fact that not all of the gospels read the same make them more believable. As far as the crucifixion goes, one must remermber that Jesus was God Himself in a human body of whom Mary was the mother and God was the father. There were many witnesses who saw and spoke to Jesus after He arose from the dead. Someone needs to do some serious Bible study and reading of the great theologians of the past.
64
@Aaron Adams
"Serene Jones is not a Christian if she does not believe in the basic tenets of the faith."
But who gets to determine what the basic tenets of the faith? Different Christian groups have various takes on the "basic tenets", so who makes the decision?
71
@Aaron Adams
So be it, she is not a Christian as defined by men in power. They wrote written texts, decided which ones they agreed with, wrote the creeds, and here are.
20
@Aaron Adams
I feel sorry for fundamentalists who misunderstand the poetry of the bible/gospels. What causes you to be fearful that they are not literal and historical documentation? Is your faith that weak?
4
History teaches there is no universal moral law. We are all ridden with thoughts and acts against others separating us from good, and no amount of good can overcome this state. There is a way out, and it is outside us. It is the gift of grace, that God died for our sins so we may believe in His greatness, His resurrection, and receive eternal life. The physical resurrection is replete through writings of Apostles (and a non-believer, Paul) who lived and breathed with Jesus before and after his death. The virgin birth as a method of depreciating women? Come on. If you don’t believe in the resurrection you don’t have to believe in anything else, including the virgin birth bringing one unblemished by the capacity to sin; and the existence of heaven and eternal life as promised to those who will only believe and receive this greatest of God’s gifts. Otherwise, we truly come from monkeys and go to dust, and nothing we do on earth matters. Anything goes because there is no consequence of significance. There are no amount of good works we can do to earn eternal life, although truly ‘faith without works is dead’. It is sad to read this interview where both congratulate themselves on their unfounded beliefs, devoid of faith in the God they speak of. Don’t blame God for man’s inhumanity to man. This often cruel life on earth has tested those of the strongest faith and faith has won out. We are free to choose to believe. Or not. He is Risen Indeed!
7
@Thomas Clayton
> History teaches there is no universal moral law.
I'd submit the golden rule as an example of a universal moral law. History isn't teaching that there is no such law, it's teaching that people must never stop trying to obey it.
7
Nonsense.
@Eric Hamilton
The golden rule is straight from God: Early in Jesus’ teaching thePharisees asked Him, Rabbi, what is God’s greatest commandment? Christ replied, ‘love God with all your heart and soul and strength and might, and love your neighbor as yourself.’
3
Excellent rethinking.
Perhaps the only legitimate prayer is "Thank you Lord," for life, a fabulous planet, a brilliantly evolved primate body with the latest feature, an improved brain. When we fight over whether the Lord is named God or Allah, Yahweh or Harvesp-Tavaan, Brahma or The Great Spirit, we are defining ourselves not the Deity. When we invent theologies - especially humans "created in the image of God" - we are just being silly. TYL!
4
I would have appreciated a photo of Reverend Jones
Religion comes first. Liturgy and theology second. Apologia 3rd. We should all stick with number one and forget the rest it's all about angels on a pin. Remember 1:13, Corinthians.
Although I have no wish to be part of a religion that is based on human sacrifice offered as an appeasement for my innate moral depravity to an angry god, I would still love to join with other people in a church that celebrates and nurtures our spirits. Once you understand how Christian theology developed you can’t un-know it, so you have to get spiritually creative if that part of your humanity is going to stay alive.
1
Reverend Jones acknowledges that the Bible itself is a deep well of religious confusion. Unfortunately, it is the only available source of information on Jesus and his teachings.
The Old Testament of the Bible is about a cruel, jealous God of Israel and his chosen people. The first four chapters of the New Testament, the Gospels, are about Jesus. The man and his teachings are glimpsed through a thick veil of preposterous miracles and unlikely incidents intended to substantiate the notion that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah mentioned in the Old Testament.
In later chapters of the New Testament, Paul, a disciple of Jesus, expounds a new religion, Christianity, based on the teachings and examples of Jesus. Christianity views God as a loving, fatherly figure. The religion is based on conscience and faith, wholly unlike the Old Testament religion of rules, punishments, and rewards.
Over time, the Christian religion has evolved into a bewildering collection of myths, theologies, catechisms, liturgies, superstitions, traditions, and sects. The Old Testament, which is wholly irrelevant to Christianity, serves as a cesspool of justification for the hate and prejudice preached by many Christian sects.
Reverend Jones senses something stirring in the world of Christianity. Could it be 2,000 years of detritus crumbling to expose the original religion of moral conscience and guileless faith?
4
Today’s Christianity is wide open. We are free to modify our beliefs to fit any lifestyle desired.
This is good but also meaningless, may as well plug into any current fad or self help movement.
Five hundred years ago, we would all be burned at the stake! Lol
1
I believed this publication is a polluted mind contribution. If there is no empty grave, there would have been Christianity. The father loves us so much and gave us his son to die as an atoning sacrifice for our sin. He died and rose on the third day. We don't bear our sins anymore. To as many that believed, to such he gave them right to be children of God. Anything falling short of this is heresy. God bless you.
3
Serene Jones: "For me it’s impossible to tell the story of Easter without also telling the story of the cross."
The word "Easter" is not even used in the NIV translation. In the KJV translation, it is used once:
"... intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." (Acts 12:4, KJV)
The corresponding passage in the NIV is:
"Herod intended to bring him out for public trial after the Passover." (Acts 12:4, NIV)
So what is this "story of Easter" that Jones is referring to?
3
Josehph Campbell couldn't have written it better.
3
Such glib answers to such weighty questions. I expect more from the Times and the the leader of such an august institution.
To reduce the Gospels down to “love conquers all” and brush the rest away as metaphysical superstition is to shortchange your readers on the profound teachings of Jesus and leave them with a vague mantra from the ‘70s.
The truth is we live in a world filled with suffering and are called to assume our responsibility in the world as an antidote to that suffering; “pick up your cross and follow me”. In some unexpected way, this path, when followed with empathy and courage leads to redemption of not just us, but the entire world.
Yes love is central. “All the laws of the prophets rest on love.” But not some vague, feel good notion of love. First is love if God or what you might think of as the highest ideal or simply the truth woven into existence. Love the truth. Next is love of yourself. Not a narcissistic love of your best self, but a love of your true self with all your faults and shortcomings. It takes a love of truth to see yourself as you are and it takes grace and mercy to accept and love that self. When you have learned to love your whole self, you now know how to love others completely with all their faults and shortcomings.
Fortunately it is a road that we do not have to walk alone; “for lo I am with you always.” And when we inevitably fall short, His grace is there to make up the difference.
2
To believe the ancient world was ignorant of the power of genetic manipulation is to discount the thousands of years where herdsmen used the purposeful selection of animals according to traits they found bolstered the health and well being of their flocks. They know that placing stones in the birth canals of less than desirable animals prevented the meeting of sperm and egg.
Its not a stretch to believe the same was true when it came to human beings. Contraception was used in the ancient world and fostered by tribes wishing to keep their lines pure. Even old Jehovah steered his preferred control group away from mixing with anyone outside it's boundaries. If anything supports that view, its the admonition for same sex individuals to be viewed as sinners. They simply didn't go along with the genetic plan. No reproduction there, so steer clear. Rebels not supporting the cause. The selfish view of an intolerant scientist unwilling to recognize the many colors of his own spawn.
Invitro fertilization and surrogacy is nothing new. The Sumerians described it as a process used to populate the region long before an individual selected a young woman, knocked her out and left her husband explaining why there's a baby on the way and mom's hymen is still intact (theoretically). Louise Brown was not the first.
Ours is a more sophisticated age. What is myth or mystery is more easily explained with a little knowledge of history, human nature and a hefty helping of scientific fact.
2
I appreciate this presentation of Ms. Jones' eminently rational perspectives.
I'm especially impressed by her conclusion:
"I feel that spiritual ground around us shaking again. The structures of religion as we know it have come up bankrupt and are collapsing. What will emerge? That is for our children and our children’s children to envision and build."
That called to mind a quote from Dr. Carl Jung:
"One looks back with appreciation to the brilliant teachers, but with gratitude to those who touched our human feelings. The curriculum is so much necessary raw material, but warmth is the vital element for the growing plant and for the soul of the child."
Entrained with her stalwart opposition to institutional deceptions, the warmth of Ms. Jones' loving spirit speaks for itself.
2
The change that seems to be coming is not a nice, lofty return of Religion, but people returning to Faith. We can see the engines of Religion, like Government or Corporations, roll over the wants and needs of people in it's drive to Control the people, rather than console.
Thus the change I fear is much like Noah's Flood, where the world was apparently filled with people, such that they could all communicate easily with each other, which makes the idea of a high tech civilization spanning the globe before the deluge, the Great Flood from the melting of the Ice Caps that put the seacoasts from then some 400 ft plus underwater. Lots of actual proof of whole cities underwater around India and elsewhere in the world.
Perhaps the Corporations and Businesses did not listen to their scientists then, and overheated their time with carbon overload, that and apparent solar flash and/or cometary impact at the Younger Dryas boundary shows an extremely fast melt-off of the North American Ice Caps.
Thus the old sinking of Atlantis, which since the flood was attributed to arrogant, greedy people who ignored the words of those men of science who told them they Could Not keep doing as they were. The result, Deluge, and a complete wipe of civilization to the point of reducing survivors to a cave-man like existence over much the world.
We need to keep That part of the story in mind as well when we talk about fresh beginnings and rebirth of the world and humanity to a higher existence plane.
The Buddha said it best. Our defilements and afflictions (greed, hatred, delusion, anger, doubt, fear etc..) all come from our ignorance. The presence of all these flaws in us is indicative of the absence of a fully enlightened state.
It is only from a fully enlightened state that we can understand the deepest mysteries, God, Karma, Meaning of Life etc..
So the Buddha taught only how to become enlightened, how to eradicate our fears and delusions, so that we can find out for ourselves what the Truth is.
He discouraged any speculation.
1
Hundreds of Comments and so many people are not aware Reverend Jones is the first woman to head the Union Theological Seminary. The assumptions and biases of gender are undermining the excellent unfolding debate here.
1
It may be that the Easter story is not just about the Jesus story ( the personal) but is also about the Christ story (the universal). The Word; the Holy Ghost, the Amen, or Amin as the Word is also known as, started creation which was a void (virgin) and impregnated it with knowledge and intelligence; the Son of God in creation. Jesus claimed to be one with this intelligence having Christ consciousness and manifesting as a Son of God. If this was so then the resurrection was not a miracle but a natural outcome of supremacy over nature and her laws. There are many other religious leaders from other traditions who had similar knowledge. Today the dominant view in science is that the universe does not contain knowledge or intelligence but information only which can be harvested and stored in A.I. to advance the human cause.
There is no point in trying to explain the Christian mystery literally or dumbing it down due to not understanding it. It is best to treat it as a mystery. In quantum physics 'non locality,' what Einstein described as 'spooky action at a distance' and many other factors of the quantum world are mystifying but will eventually be understood as will the mysteries of Christianity.
@AJWoods
It is also highly likely, let me say an identical probability, that concepts of quantum physics will never be understood just as no evidence will ever be available for the Christian ideas. We can see all the gods who have been forgotten because their is no evidence for them. As a small example, there is not a shred of evidence that prayer has any effect on events; just your feelings. Back to physics: the human mind was not designed for understanding reality; only for surviving through the day and into the next week. I suspect that idea cannot be seriously challenged. Reality will always escape us. Even Sir Isaac Newton laughed at those who thought we could explain gravity. The m ind still cannot understand it even with Einsteins attempt at it. "space-time continuum;" the "bending of space?" Those are mathematical guesses. Reality is not math; math is not reality. Religion is hope.
3
Very interesting column, and very enlightened opinions on the part of Rev. Jones. I do think that as we struggle with the horrors of our times, that we need to include kindness and love for the animal kingdom as well. It's not just climate change that we need to address, it's the all out assault on Nature. Can't we just, through observation, understand that animals are sentient beings? They are not there only to literally feed our appetites, but as part of the Earth, who is our common mother.
But why must kindness and love be channeled through faith? Faith is a tricky thing, that seems to be used as a cover for just about any kind of behavior. We don't need to look any further than today's headlines about the mass murders in Sri Lanka. Wouldn't we all be better off if we detached love from faith and just acted in a civilized manner towards each other instead of always having to look towards something larger than simply our own souls? Faith is too big.
6
Bizarre to find such a column in the NYT.
As a profound atheist I am one with Tacitus: All religions are equally useful and equally false.
Let us hope for the day when religion will not long rend societies asunder and be used as a front to oppress those who are not fortunate to be in the position of religious leaders dictating morality to others.
Three cheers for secular humanism.
19
As Stalin and Mao proved, religion and a belief in God are not the cause of human depravity.
The truth of the world is written on our hearts. Just because some medieval Pope tried to use his position to create his own truth does not invalidate it.
2
When human beings try to explain with logic what is the "mystery of a faith," I shake my head in sorrow. When human beings accept with humility the "mystery of a faith," I rejoice. Easter Sunday is the perfect day to rejoice and cite my most favorite quote from C.S. Lewis. He didn't have a problem with the mystery. "Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither." Happy Easter!!
5
After reading this, I had to go to the dictionary to look up religion.
If God is "beyond our knowing," then why does Rev. Jones assert anything about God, one way or another? Why does she assert that "The God of Easter" is "vulnerable" and "connected to the world"? How does she know? And if it's merely a matter of belief, why believe that something exists that you cannot know? Is belief (her "faith") simply a baseless personal choice? A whim?
And why call the virgin birth a "bizarre claim"? That was needlessly insulting to some believers. No love in that. Why not simply say that she does not believe in it? And what a dodge of the question about the efficacy of prayer. Why not simply say she doesn't believe in it, since she clearly doesn't? Anyway, how does she know that a God we cannot know cannot be manipulated by prayer?
Strange interview. I don't think it was fair to her, and I don't she was wise to grant it.
9
It is so tiring to see obviously educated adults discussing the veracity of fairytales and myths, and constantly moving the goal posts in desperation throughout history to fit their preferred narrative. Virgin birth? Resurrection? Or the Islamic scriptures on flying carpets and a talking newborn baby Jesus, or the Old Testament/Torah fictions of the Exodus, the fall of Jericho and many more? Long before they were ever founded the Abrahamic god at the root of all three religions was a local Caananite pagan god of war, just one among a pantheon of other regional gods, who rose to prominence during an extended period of conflict between the Israelites and the Assyrians. Since then the rest has essentially been, for lack of a better word, marketing. All virtue and evil in the human world are of human, and not paranormal, origin. To see otherwise intelligent adults persist in indulging in intellectual laziness and shirking responsibility for the world we inhabit and have created in favor of feeble ancient myths is frankly depresssing. Grow up please, the world and humanity today and in the future need you sober.
7
It is so frustrating to see science constantly moving the goal posts to stay relevant in our enlightened era. The origins of the standard model was a simplistic notion of everything being composed of earth, wind, and fire. That first inkling of knowledge has been followed with a near constant stream of half-baked hypotheses, theories, and notions that have required near constant revision over the centuries. When will we come to our senses!
1
"Virgin birth?"
Medically speaking, a "virgin" birth is possible, for example, through artificial insemination. And sperm can travel up the birth canal despite an intact hymen.
2
@JG You either have a heightened sense of irony (in which case, Bravo!), or your beef is with science, which is a separate conversation you should take up with a scientist. I appeal only to sound, human common sense.
Miracles like the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection belong to a very different era, a time when the the faithful needed miracles to reinforce their faith and distinguish their religion from hundreds of other creeds circulating in the Roman Empire. If a religion is going to rely on miracles today, it would be a very weak reed indeed. Any claim that goes against well established scientific principles only weakens the religion in the eyes of a well educated population. A religion can be uplifting by encouraging empathy, social responsibility and care for other human beings, particularly those that are different from us. Monotheistic religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism have those elements but many so called believers ignore them while sowing distrust of others, trying to impose constipated moral views on people who do not share them and with their acts denigrate their religion. The biggest enemies of a given religion are its most fanatic members. They are incapable of understanding that it is their actions that drive people away from it.
8
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?" --WB Yeats
For me "faith" is shorthand for the phrase "people believe what they want to believe," or cynically, what they pretend to believe.
3
@Lauren
Thank you … it's a very often overlooked point: that statistically, many of the people claiming to believe don't actually believe. Religion seems to be mostly about tribalism. Historically, there was usually a terrible price to pay - ostracism, or worse - if you announced you didn't believe. However, "not believing" per se has never been a problem, because you can claim to believe anything at all and no one has to know the difference if you're faking.
(Translate: I went to Sunday School, LOL.)
Strange how Christians over many centuries, all reading the same book, keep coming up with contrary opinions about what the Bible actually says. They keep arguing and breaking off into new denominations, most recently as we saw with the Baptists. Kristoff's interviews with various Christian leaders shows that the Bible says whatever it is that you want it to say. Yet over the same centuries, the natural philosophers - aka scientists, all reading the same book called Nature, keep coming up with ever deeper and agreed upon understandings. It is as if the Bible is the real 'Tower of Babel' - designed to confuse and divide. "Look deeply into nature - and then you will understand everything better" - Einstein
7
This has to be the best description of Christianity and Religious beliefs I have ever read.
Here is a Woman Minister who admits to her own questions of what most have been spoon fed for centuries.
Obviously Reverend Jones has the gumption and guts to put things in what really is human context.
Too bad she doesn't head up all Religious Groups. She doe not pretend that there is just one answer or way to believe.
Thank you Mr. Kristof for bringing hope to all believers and non-believers.
8
Interviews like these make me very happy I'm not a practicing Christian. My world view is not informed by an old book whose contents mean whatever a minister decides they mean. I really can't abide an interpretive approach to religion and spirituality.
Serene Jones doesn't get to cherry pick what he would like to believe. Christianity does believe in a virgin birth with the explicit intention of promoting marriage, child birth, and heterosexual male ascendancy. That IS what Christians believe and promote. Jones' opinion holds no relevence whatsoever. Theological credentials notwithstanding.
You don't get to wish away the bad parts of your religion because you feel they are uncomfortable or impolitic. Protestantism in general has a very long history of exactly this practice. You end up with religions where the Bible is interpreted to promote evil like Trump's child separation and call it God's will.
If you're going to debate the meaning of scripture, what you feel or believe really holds no relevance to the conversation. A minister of all people should possess the humility to admit what they do not know. Jones doesn't know which account of the Resurrection is accurate. He therefore shouldn't presume to lecture anyone on the Resurrection's absolute meaning. It smacks of hubris.
4
@Andy - Serene Jones is the first woman to lead NYC's Union Theological Seminary. The Comments are filled with excellent rhetoric about religion but the biases are undermining this exchange.
I take exception that the Crucifixion was a "first-century Lynching". The crucifixion was a state ordered torture and execution. To suggest vigilante justice here would to manipulate one of the only historically accurate events in how Jesus of Nazareth's life has been told. And it ham-fistedly appropriates from one of the most horrific chapters in modern America.
I suspect that Jones' whole framework so that woo-woo Christians can have it both ways. I'm not having it. This religion is codified. The signifiers within it are fixed. Nothing in it was ever intended to be metaphor.
Half-measures suggesting so won't emancipate us from this harmful doctrinal system. Full emancipation means saying out loud with two feet planted firmly on the ground, "this is all a lie". And then, examining closely why this lie persists, and for whom it has benefited for 2K years.
3
Always interesting to witness a professional theologian picking his way through the wreckage of the Christian experiment. But, frankly, for an ordained priest to say that God is "vulnerable" is a breathtaking--dare we say it?--heresy.
It is almost impossible to determine whether the Rev. Jones believes that God is omnipotent--which would seem to be the basic job-description of any divine being. All-seeing, all-knowing--well, not so much. "Connected to the world," well, sorta. You can pray...but a metaphor can't listen.
The empty tomb becomes a sort of mushy literary metaphor, symbolizing some sort of "love"--a word that is so misused and abused that it is practically meaningless. But trust a priest--God's got it. Somewhere. Sorta.
That murmur of existential doubt, in the year of our Lord 2019, is just about all organized religion has left. It is a sad spectacle.
And now, let's pass the collection plate!
4
@richard cheverton - your observation about a theologian "picking his way through the wreckage of the Christian experiment" could have more use to the Comments if you had bothered to note this theologian in question is a "her", as in the first woman to head NYC's Union Theological Seminary.
@richard Cheverton
"to say that God is 'vulnerable' is a breathtaking--dare we say it?--heresy"
What? No, at least the way I understand it, that God made himself vulnerable, for our sake, is pretty much the central Christian belief.
1
Kristof: "Here’s my interview, edited for space, ..."
That could be a problem. Jones never uses the words "Bible", "Testament", or "Scripture". Were those words edited out? And where are the Bible quotes?
3
The spring holiday, like the winter holiday, is a remnant of an agricultural past, when people had the time to notice when and where the sun rose over the horizon and warmed the earth.
It was magic.
1
Mr. Kristof, you just set the stage for Reverend Jones - to be ex-communicated. His message of love and humanity will be the reason. Although the myths send the same message true believers concentrate only on the myths not on the message.
For at least the 50th time in these comments..... she, not he. She.
I always quiz my religious friends: What if Christ himself came and informed us that no he was not resurrected and no he was not born of a virgin, would you decide that "Loving your neighbor as yourself" is wrong? Too often we are pulled by the "miracles" of the bible instead of paying attention to all its great teachings. If only Christians lived like Christ, we would have such a wonderful world, but ...??
6
You forgot two other important questions. 1. In the painting, they aren’t wearing shoes. Didn’t it hurt when they climbed the ladder? 2. Also in the painting, only one woman has a piece of cloth on her head. That’s not fair. Why doesn’t everyone else have or no one? A third question, if I may, Professor. In the painting, they cut down a tree to make the cross. Didn’t that contribute to global warming? I thought Jesus was supposed to save us. Instead he gave us this big problem!
I found this wonderfully interesting and relevant on Easter morning.
At a Seder last night I found myself wondering why an all-knowing and all-powerful deity would require blood to be smeared over the doorways of houses to mark them? And why would a kind, merciful and loving being be murdering all these little kids in the first place?
Doesn't it make more sense that the Bible was written by ordinary men, in disparate language, over many centuries? Why invoke a god in all this mundane death and destruction?
3
"The pervasive idea of an abusive God-father who sends his own kid to the cross so God could forgive people is nuts."
Not too subtle, that. But, you won't get much argument from me. However, this does seem to go against Christian dogma. This atheist's understanding of Christianity is that Jesus was sent by God the Father to be the salvation of mankind through His dying on the cross and His subsequent resurrection:
'Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”' (Luke 24:46-47)
Interesting that most of our Founding Fathers were actually deists in that they had a belief in some sort of god but not one who was concerned with the daily existence of earthlings. Consequently, a deist could not believe that this sort of god would be sending a messiah to be the salvation of mankind. It follows that a deist could not be a Christian in any sense of the word despite what their birth certificate might say.
3
Nick, love this piece, thank you!
1
I am glad my Lutheran pastors did not go to Union Theological Seminary. Paul preached Christ crucified and that without belief in the resurrection, we are of all people to be pitied.
7
It's all a myth and not a very original one. It was time worn and and an off the shelf story told many times before. There is a long history of virgin births - this is not the first one. What is curious is the human need to have heroes and spiritual icons over the ages (long before St. Paul) the issue of virgins.
3
Interesting but I’m not clear on what makes someone a Christian versus just a good human being of any or no religion. A Christian I thought had to believe Christ was the son of God and that accepting his Godliness was essential. Seeing him as a good wise man doesn’t I think make you a Christian.
5
I find myself in agreement with much of what Rev. Jones has expressed in this interview, however, I would never tag myself as Christian.
3
@Rev. Henry Bates Amen, Reverend!
1
"For someone like myself who is drawn to Jesus’ teaching but doesn’t believe in the virgin birth or the physical resurrection, what am I? Am I a Christian?"
Mr. Kristof, you might consider this alternative question.
For someone like myself who is drawn to Jesus' virgin birth and physical resurrection, but doesn't believe in Jesus's teachings of love and social justice, what am I? Am I a Christian?
I'm glad that you pose the first question. And I bet you are too.
2
Conservatives and Liberals both are struggling to maintain a level of consciousness that no longer fits with what we know and can do.
At the center of a global crisis of meaning, there is a new gospel a-borning. It will be rooted in a new comprehension of what life means to, and through, us all: HGLBTQA, North and South, Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red, Rich, Poor. At its heart lies the reconceptualization of a "Human Being" at the center of the universe, to a Human, Being within all modes and levels of existence within which we are mere players.
Not all truth is rationally perceived.
7
@James Campbell I agree but would even go a step further and ask what if reason itself is corrupt, corrupted perhaps by the sin of pride?
3
But she's wrong, though. She's rejecting fundamental tenants of Christianity (the bodily resurrection of Christ, the virgin birth, and the afterlife) that were established as fundamental beliefs of Christianity in 325 at the Council of Nicea. The only way you could stray any further from fundamental Christian beliefs is to reject the Trinity.
Jones is welcome to her beliefs, but she should stop pretending that they don't go against what billions of Christians—Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant—have believed for the past 1,700 years.
9
Love and hate exists in all of us. It just takes a master
switch to go either way. The Master of Hate made it to
the White House and threw the master switch on one
third of the country that way. I remains which way the
rest of the country goes.
2
"This wrestling with climate change, and wrestling with the levels of violence in our world, wrestling with authoritarianism and the intractable character of gender oppression — it’s forcing communities within all religions to say, “Something is horribly wrong here.”
I notice you left out the ungodly infatuation of the current "evangelicals" for Donald Trump. Remember, Trump and his followers (including Republicans in Congress) claim that climate change is a hoax. And therefore, so do the so-called evangelicals. How can people who claim to be Christian "wrestle" with climate change, when their god, Donald Trump, is totally against it?
1
Rev Jones has jettisoned most of the central tenets of historic Christianity, and it's no surprise that her brand of impotent liberal Christianity has been steadily declining in the West for many decades. Conservative Christianity, on the other hand, is holding its own in the US and is growing faster in Africa, Asia, and Latin America than at any other time in history. The apostle Paul memorably said, "If Christ was not [actually] raised from the dead, our faith is worthless and we are fools to be pitied." Either historic Christianity that accepts the Bible as historically reliable matters ultimately, or it matters not at all.
12
Christianity, like art, is whatever you can get away with. People, in my experience, generally believe that which makes them feel comfortable and reinforces their worldview. I've read a bit of history and one of my favorite examples of Christian piety is the Spanish arriving in the "new world" where they baptized the natives before killing them. Oh yeah, and we'll take your gold for safe keeping. The myriad examples of Christian "behavior" is enough to leave me preferring to believe in sprites, trolls and leprechauns.
3
When I read an article like this I am reminded that when someone tells me he is a Christian I still know nothing about him at all. I don't know what he really believes, not to mind what kind person it makes him. When I consider the theological positions they take and the values they preach, why there are so many Christianities it's impossible to keep track. Same goes for Muslims. More evidence that judging a person by the label they choose to wear is absurd.
The "Crucifixion is not something that God is orchestrating from upstairs".
This would be fundamentally different than my indoctrination, which was that The Crucifixion was entirely God's plan from the very beginning. God very much sent his only son to be crucified, so that mankind could be saved. That was the whole point.
4
Daniel Dennett in Breaking the Spell makes the point that among those who attend church there are more who believe that "others" believe in God than those who say that they themselves believe.
Thankfully, Mainline Protestants like Serene Jones are now explicitly repudiating a literalist reading of the Bible. The world will be better for it.
Let's hope for a similar trend in the Islamic world.
2
I find Rev. Jones’ comments to be sad. Jesus had no miraculous birth, he didn’t rise from the dead, his death on the cross had no greater purpose because God is an impotent being who doesn’t do anything, there is no heaven so what is important is to love people, defend women’s rights and save the environment. Not surprisingly, she has managed to find in a 2000 year old faith (and I would argue it is much older than that), a belief system that lines up completely with 21st century popular liberal culture. I can’t, for the life of me, figure out what is appealing or provides hope in such a religion.
I realize that many readers consider me to be a fool because I believe in an all-powerful and loving God who intentionally sent His Son to die on the cross. I am delusional because I believe in a miraculous birth and resurrection. I should be committed and have my children taken away from me because I insist on abusively indoctrinating them in my religious cult. Yet, I stand here on Resurrection Sunday with great hope, rejoicing that my Savior is Risen, He is Risen, indeed! And I share in a hope that has brought comfort and joy and celebration for 2000 years. Christ has inspired the music of Mozart, the construction of Notre Dame, the service of Mother Teresa, the fight for justice by Dr. King, and the everyday lives of billions of people.
Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, "We will hear you again about this." - Acts 17:32
11
I am absolutely certain there is a "Divine Energy" of the Universe that is the "life force" and this is the "God" that Jesus spoke of, especially in the Sermon in the Mount. For this reason I experience being "Catholic" as an integral part of my very being.
2
So glad to read a Christian minister debunk the Virgin Birth. It is a myth that has totally led to the perceived sinfulness of sex, even within marriage. Why couldn't the Bible have had Mary and Joseph in a loving relationship that produced a wonderful son. The Virgin Birth mythology is responsible for the degradation of women all over the world.
2
I do not find the crucified nor risen Christ "a bizarre claim." If Christianity is not about the resurrection it is about nothing at all. Given this sad interview glorifying the sinful self of free will in absurdum, I do find it a bizarre claim that Serene Jones actually thinks of herself as a "Christian" minister.
6
> If Christianity is not about the resurrection it is about nothing at all.
Really? What about living a good, moral code and helping others? You’ve confirmed my belief that Christians think that simply attending church makes them Christian. They can lie, cheat and steal every other day of the week, but churchgoing and penance absolves it all. Occupying a pew on Sunday and standing / sitting / chanting / uttering should not a Christian make.
1
@Buffylou
Christians don't "think" what you think they think. Christianity teaches that no one is good, no one is moral, no one is righteous. I certainly am not. Jesus said, "God alone is good." Unable to be good I need someone to save me from this wretched body of death. Christ makes it happen through his death and resurrection, which I receive through his gift of faith alone. All else is pious platitudes.
3
"What happens when we die?"
Easy: the world ends for us but keeps going for the living.
Next question.
4
I’m reading this Easter Sunday morning. It made me weep with joy at the discovery that changing life-long beliefs can make you whole, can set you free to experience the truth.
4
Wow--faith in a God that lies. And, a "minister" who makes her living as a scholar, not an actual person who ministers to the sick, the blind, the lame, the poor, the widow. If you pull the fangs out of your faith, all you are left with is, as Mr. Kristof mentions, philosophy. Union Theological Seminary is "grounded in the Christian tradition," but if it's not grounded in faith in Christ's resurrection, it's nothing more than a place where exegesis earns people a living. This interview reminds me of the cop-out ending of _Interstellar_ where Matthew Mcconaughey breathlessly proclaims that "It's love, TARS. Love is the answer!" to what lies behind the singularity of a black hole. Christopher Nolan could have come up with the same answers to Mr. Kristof's questions.
I respect the Reverend's attempts to be inclusive, but if we are indeed on the brink of another reformation in her terms, it's going to be the religious equivalent of a geological Anthropocene epoch where our excesses tear down a beautiful balance the scriptures advocate between faith, agency, and a just and loving God who sent His son to be crucified and to emerge from the tomb as the resurrected Christ. I'm now going to eat some Peeps and a Cadbury chocolate Egg to celebrate . . .
6
@polka
Amen, and again Amen. Well formulated. Well stated.
4
We should have gone back tooZeus and his colleagues 500 years ago but we had that whole Sola Scriptural thing to deal with. Now we can set tha aside and go back to the wisdom of the ancient Greeks.
Not entirely kidding.
Every human society seems to require its own creation myth, and then it must have its revelation applicable to all things.
Can't we all just get along? Do we really have to waste all the time and energy we do in slaying the infidel? Is that the best we can come up with?
3
I completely support Dr Jones right to believe whatever she does(love?) or doesn’t(pretty much every basic tenet of Christianity) but why bother masquerading as a Christian? What a complete boondoggle . And what’s the purpose of teaching theology when you just stated that no orthodox Christian beliefs have any truth? Sounds like a waste of time and energy to me.
7
Glad to see someone else debunk the Virgin Birth. It has been a way to denigrate women for centuries. I could never understand that if the Church revered motherhood so much - in that women should have as many children as physically possible - why the Blessed Virgin couldn't have a sexually healthy relationship with her husband. A mystery forever in my mind.
2
I love what Rev Jones says. Yet, where I come from (rural North Carolina) Rev. Jones would not be considered a Christian at all. I wish, in an way, that Rev Jones was not a Christian minister, but instead just a guy you get to know in your neighborhood or at the bar.
2
If there's such a thing as productively talking past each other, this article seems to be an example. As the percentage of people professing no particular religion grows, articulate Christians need to be given platforms from which to talk the religion back to where it will be seen as a beneficent oasis of charity and a place for quenching spiritual thirst. That beats trying to lock up judgeships to constrain the sexual and reproductive choices of the rest of us.
There is one teaching that appears at the center of all known religions and philosophies: Confucius said: "Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself." Hillel said: "Whatever is hateful and distasteful to you, do not do to your fellow man." Jesus put it in the positive: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." In the Muslim faith, it appears as: “None of you has faith until he loves for his brother or his neighbor what he loves for himself.” And in Buddhism, we hear it again: "Hurt not others with that which pains yourself." All the vestiges and trappings of religion are simply different ways to teach us that one simple principle.
4
As a devout Clausian, it pains me that fewer and fewer Americans believe.
Too many still have that old "Big Guy in the Sled" idea. The truth is, we all have our own chimney to go down. But if believing in Tinker Bell helps you, believe!
The problem with liberal theology is that besides being in denial over the content of Christian faith as set out in the Bible and known in over 2000 years of Christian understanding and experience, it empties churches.
6
Many theologians compare the evolution of religious beliefs to the psychological development of human beings. Ken Wilber lists stages as archaic, magical, mythical, rational, pluralistic, and integrated. At different stages, we will understand the crucifixion and resurrection differently. Some will say there must be an empty tomb; some will say self-giving love triumphs hate and violence. Some will say you must agree with them; some will say God accepts you as you are.
At the stage when I questioned why a loving God would send his innocent son to die for the sins of the world, a friend suggested I study the writings of ecumenical teacher and author, Franciscan priest, Richard Rohr. He is the founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation (CAC). His daily e-mailed meditations offer an understanding of a compassionate, self-emptying God whose Creation included Jesus and Christ from the beginning. He writes that our forgiveness was present at creation and Jesus came to show us how to live rather than how to escape death. ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1.)
His meditations are especially relevant today, in a world of chaos and divisiveness. They are a source of great comfort and guidance. You may sign up for emails here: https://cac.org/richard-rohr/richard-rohr-ofm/
Rohr's new book, "The Universal Christ" offers a deep study of the Cosmic Christ. It portends a new stage in religious understanding and evolution.
3
Someone needs to explain to both Jones and Kristof that there is a difference between a government sanctioned execution, in this case crucifixion, and a lynching, the extrajudicial killing by civilians.
6
The observation that the Gospel’s accounts of the resurrection are “all over the map” is just plain wrong. Read them, don’t take my word or that of Dr. Jones. Paul’s letters, which predate the Godpels by at least 20 years, specifically focus on the Good News of resurrection. Indeed, the Romans crucified thousands of people. That wouldn’t be news at all. Now, an empty tomb and a dead criminal who walks on the road to Emmaus, asks doubters to touch his wounds and eats a breakfast of fish - that’s something to remember for at least a couple of thousand years.
5
Nicholas Kristof asks, [W]hat am I? Am I a Christian?" Mr. Kristof you are an ethical human being who searches for ways to live a meaningful life in as good a way as you can. Whether those ethics came from Aristotle, Confucius, Jesus, Mark Twain or others you realize that having only one chance at life and at each day of life you must give your best to yourself, to other human beings and to our planet in order for that life to have meaning.
1
Great column. Real issues. Daniel Maguire, former priest, theology professor at Marquette, recently published a book that is spot on. “Christianity without God”. Definitely will bring Nicholas to the right place. Important discussion and real. The question in catholic school religion class was “who made us?” Catechism answer, “ God made us”. Maguire, answer is that Man made God to answer the unanswerable questions. Amen
3
While we're making room for skepticism about Christian traditions, how about the tradition of Jesus (Joshua) himself? Not only is there no evidence of his rising from the dead; there is no solid evidence that this person ever existed.
1
Jesus of Nazareth preached ideas of our cyclical birth, our rebirth and the mysterious points of our temporal knowledge, in stages of consciousness, where it emerges in a person's maturity and at the end of consciousness where life ends and it disappears. "Remember man, thou art dust, and unto dust thou shall return, " Genesis 3:19; and "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead." 1 Corinthians 15:21
And the Christian idea of eternal life reflects ideas of ancient Egypt, Hindi, Persian, Akan, Mayan, Buddhist and other Faiths of cyclical rebirth. They all produced forms of spiritual incantation, sacred formulas, and curses: mere words that supposedly bring to life cures and real afflictions, human reincarnation and death.
Apparently a Supreme Force does play dice with us within our closed universe. For if we go back to star dust from where we came, then our cosmic dice has only so many sides, and it will once again play our same genetic numbers. We cannot help but be reborn, again and again, if time and space are circular, for eternity revolutions. The message of Jesus is thus also a cosmology. His dice replay us for eternity.
1
First, anyone with any slight trace of education who can look up on a clear night at what we now know to be stars, galaxies, trillions of planets and all about fourteen billion years old, and reconcile that with any events on our speck that rate at the top of the universe, let alone anything twenty centuries ago, is a more credulous person than should be allowed loose. That said, I’ve been thinking of the Easter Bunny, possibly arisen from ancient ideas that hares were hermaphrodites. Virgin birth, if you see how that works. Turns out, the idea was not original with whomever wrote the Bible, and floated around those Mediterranean faiths we now arrogantly call myths. This being the Western silly season, with an historically unlikely Exodus from Egypt, and the events questioned in this column, plus the advent of the Bunny, and even more interestingly, it’s message of decorated eggs, should leave all of us happy to be diverted from the absolute disgust of our government and whatever is or isn’t happening with Game of Thrones.
So, what exactly is christian about all this? If you would simply like to profess love, but without all the other (often questionable) claims, why call yourself a Christian? Seems like a choose your own adventure book if you approach religion like this.
6
"Those who claim to know whether or not [the resurrection] happened are kidding themselves. But that empty tomb symbolizes that the ultimate love in our lives cannot be crucified and killed."
This and everything else uttered by this "reverend" is--like religion in any form--evidence-free and purely arbitrary. She doesn't even try to quote scripture to back up such assertions about what "symbolizes" what. Suppose I say I have a wart on my leg that symbolizes I will one day be king of the world. It would make just as much sense--that is, none--as the reverend's wholly subjective veerings from one arbitrary assertion to another.
4
I believe "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, the He was buried, that He was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures."
This is the gospel I have received.
This is the gospel I have believed.
This is the gospel in which I stand.
This is the gospel by which i am saved.
I will not apologize for this gospel.
At all.
I invite you to believe this gospel.
5
All i can tell you is that I'd be nowhere without Him.
5
I am very sad that the Christian world's Easter Sunday had to start with news that churches and a hotel were bombed in Sri Lanka, killing 150 people. The world will mourn these victims, just as we mourn the tragic fire that horribly damaged Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, fortuantely not taking any lives. Mr. Kristof's interview reminds us that people who adhere to any faith should try to live by their better nature, and should seek to work with people of other faiths to solve the world's problems, not keep creating new ones. Violence and bigotry are not the answers to any problem in the world.
1
There was no prediction in the Hebrew scriptures of a “ virgin birth”. In all other places, the Christian text accurately translated that the Hebrew words meant “ young woman”.
In the pagan Middle East, people slaughtered a child to appease a deity. The story of Abraham is of his conscience telling him that the source of life would not expect someone innocent to be slaughtered to appease the divine force.
Take the Bible stories seriously, but do not take them literally.
1
A lot of squeamish responses here. If you don't accept the divinity of Christ, that is quite specifically the death on the cross and the resurrection and subsequent ascendance to Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, you are not a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. That, by the way, is a paraphrasing of Christopher Hitchins. Just admit it and stop the self deception.
A local "church", since renamed a "meeting house" once displayed these words: I went searching for the divine and I found myself.".
That sums it up. I am God.
Enough of the self delusion, and trying to pretend you are something you are not. One can be kind, loving, compassionate, caring and a good person, but that does not make one a Christian.
5
Paraphrasing Thomas Paine, "Humanity is my family, the world is my country and to do good is my religion."
5
A good explanation of why I call myself an atheist Christian and am a member of a postmodern church that is part of the new Reformation and accepts people like myself.
Many people seem to crave immortality. I don't. Rather, I dread it, but not too much because I don't believe immortality exists.
The Amazon series, "Forever," did a solid job of conveying how routine chips away at joy. I wish life delighted me as much as it once did. I'm only 62, which is near nothing when imagines living a trillion years, which is nothing compared to immortality, but at 62, life's joys, which still present, lie under the tarnish of repetition.
This column is a nice Easter gift to this former Catholic.
I will not speak for all of Catholicism, but my Catholic school teachings were heavy on sex being a dirty act. Mary was pure. Period. Whether Mary had other children was never discussed. Although the bible talks about siblings of Jesus, it appears many Catholics think they weren't biological children of Mary. I took away one message: sex is dirty.
My Catholic school teachings were also heavily focused on the crucifixion, particularly that the whole thing was somehow my fault for being a sinful person. We had these twelve 'stations of the cross' around the perimeter of my church, with little booklets at the ready so we could read along with the specifics of the agony at every station. Doing the 'stations of the cross' were occasionally imposed as penance after Confession. I once asked my Greek Orthodox husband if he had these 'stations of the cross' in his church (where he had been an altar boy, so it seems reasonable that he would know) and he didn't know what I was talking about.
It lifts my heart to hear a Christian minister call the virgin birth a "bizarre claim" and who has the courage to say that the "pervasive idea of an abusive God-father who sends his own kid to the cross so God could forgive people is nuts."
I'm no longer religious, but I might still be going to church if I had grown up with common-sense Christianity like this.
398
"We had these twelve 'stations of the cross' ..."
There is no such thing in the Bible. The best that can be said is that the "Stations of the Cross" are a way to remember certain parts of the Bible.
And, as Jones points out, the Gospels are inconsistent*, so whatever "stations" are chosen cannot accurately represent the Gospels. Even more irrationally, there is not usually a "station" for the resurrection.
For more, see the article titled "Stations of the Cross" on Wikipedia.
* Jones: "There’s no resurrection story in Mark, just an empty tomb."
7
Wow. So I’m an “atheist” raised in a bi-racial family with religious roots in Buddhism and Judaism. This is the first time I’ve found myself agreeing with a Protestant minister with anything resembling a discussion of “God”. I’m curious as to her perspective on the line she seems to be walking between philosophy and faith—so much so that I’m buying her book. My own faith is bound up with the wonder presented by quantum physics and various eastern & western philosophical systems, but now I really want to hear what she has to say. Thanks N. K. for sharing this.
3
Until we can get beyond the delusion of being our dense physical bodies, a one dimensional Cosmos, we will fail to realize the Reality of a Rational multidimensional Cosmos.
"Religion" as we know it is a decadent mishmash of nonsense and fear used by those who were/are primarily concerned with gaining wealth and power for them selves.
As those in the "religious" and the scientific community liberate themselves from their fixation on a one dimensional reality, humanity will gradually understand and accept the ancient scientific doctrine of reincarnation and the evolution of what we call a soul, but what is actually an evolving Unit of consciousness.
We exist in an infinite Cosmos, about which we know practically nothing. That is the Future.
1
She is great and covers so many of my own thoughts and questions.
Many, many thanks for doing this and Happy Easter and Passover to all folks of good will.
4
"The virgin birth only becomes important if you have a theology in which sexuality is considered sinful. It also promotes this notion that the pure, untouched female body is the best body, and that idea has led to centuries of oppressing women."
Mary was conceived without sin, accepted God's will, and gave birth to a forever sinless Jesus Christ. You're way off base with regard to your so called notion. Oppression of women cannot be tied to Mary or a virgin birth.
Nicholas, certain aspects of this article are an insult to many Christians.
2
It's all myth, people.
It's. All (every single word). Myth.
Prove me wrong.
5
Basically Reverend Jones seems to think that Christianity without its philosophy is worthless and I couldn't agree more. The mysteries of Jesus life and death are less than worthless and serve only as an to insult to his philosophy.
Serene Jones: "The virgin birth only becomes important if you have a theology in which ..."
Jones doesn't cite the Bible anywhere in that paragraph. Where does that "theology" come from, if not from the Bible?
A search of the NIV for the word "virgin" finds the word in the Old Testament, with this passage being particularly specific:
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14, NIV)
That prophecy is repeated in Matthew 1:23.
So Jones needs to be more specific about the origin and interpretation of that prophecy in the Bible.
2
Considering the writer of Matthew was aware of the prophecy in Isaiah, it seems plausible that the Matthew writer wanted to make the prophecy come “true.”
It has no bearing on the actions of that radical named Jesus- who wanted people to take care of each other and for his country to no longer be occupied territory- and for the Jewish leadership to not be complicit in that occupation- a troublemaker for sure- how he was conceived- not a big part of his story.
Revered Jones "has a form of godliness but denies its power." Paul, who wrote that description, adds this warning: "Have nothing to do with such people." (2 Tim 3:5).
After all, "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? . . . If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept." (1 Cor 15).
1
Love this conversation. I wonder how faith in Jesus, faith that he was who he said he was: divine, would have continued (and grown into the world religion it is today) had he not come back to walk among the living. With no resurrection, he was just a man, not the God-man he claimed to be during his time of ministry. All of the disciples, including his brother, were martyred for their faith in him: would this have been so had they not seen him come back to life after his crucifixion? Peter denied knowing him 3 times before his death. If Jesus simply died, why would Peter, a founder of the movement, be so bold as a believer to be martyred unless something happened after Jesus' death?
2
Amusing that the Rev blames the virgin birth for 'centuries of oppressing women'.
Organized religion (not just Christianity) has been the cause of more 'oppression' in the world than all governments combined.
I don't think one needs religion to understand the difference between good and evil; all the rest is just invented hocus pocus.
1
I appreciate the column, Mr. Kristof. Love your stuff! For what it's worth, the good Dr.'s comments are not reflective of historic Christianity. The Biblical text does not tell the story of a non-physical resurrection. The physical resurrection of Jesus is the hope for our future physical resurrection.
Case in point...
“And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.” Romans 8:11
An alternative scholarly view to Dr. Jones is scholar N. T. Wright. Wright writes: “Resurrection...did not mean going to heaven or escaping death or having a glorious and noble postmortem existence but rather coming to bodily life again after bodily death.”
2
A minister who calls my faith “nuts...fabricated...wobbly...” because I do believe in the resurrection is a strange minister who does not practice the love she emphasizes. There are respectful ways of discussing the faith of others. She sounds more like Donald Trump than a theologian. Perhaps Union Theological Seminary should drop the “Theological” part of its name.
3
Someone needs to explain to both Jones and Kristof that there is a difference between a government sanctioned execution, in this case crucifixion, and a lynching, the extrajudicial killing by civilians.
Unfortunately, such a lack of understanding damages the credibility of two otherwise intelligent people.
2
Christianity is on the wane, and for good reason; would it were so for all religions. At this juncture in human history, we need science more than ever, not psuedo-intellectualizing to try and breath new life into the fairy tales of old so people can feel better about believing in an invisible friend in the sky who, clearly over the past 2000 years, has forsaken them. This is not a "spiritual crisis," it's childish garbage, and it's time to educate it out of our society in favour of teaching science, reason, philosophy etc. "God's will" is just another sad abdication of personal responsibility, a hole in the sand to stick the brain you're not using to figure the world, and yourself, out. We do indeed need a new way to think about what it means to be human, and it starts with living in the real world and ceasing to pander to people's unfounded, ludicrous ideas of magical beings who run the universe. Look at all the people in churches in Sri Lanka praying and dying in churches today, placing the cosmic call only to find there is no one on the other end of line. Instead of thoughts and prayers, how about thinking and acting?
2
When Serene Jones says, "Something was struggling to be born on that first Easter ... Today I feel that spiritual ground around us shaking again," surely I am not the only one to hear the echo of Yeats wondering "what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Worthwhile thoughts. Thank you both.
1
Reading this article is so bizarre, it’s like game of thrones but even more ridiculous. With the latest report showing Non-Religious as the largest single ‘religious’ group in American now (23.2%), it gives me hope that we can stop talking about all of this nonsense and silly story telling. Religion is what is preventing us from dealing with climate change, over population and science. Stop giving it fuel.
4
Perhaps the most basic lesson is - do unto others -----
1
Wow! I was going to rip into you for choosing the illustration at the head of your column, of all the saints, featuring Bernard a bombastic self-important, antagonistic and divisive man; followed by a go at the damage religion in general has caused the world over the ages. Then you interview this person who in a few deft phrases makes it clear how someone of obvious intelligence and insight can embrace Christianity--by putting in perspective maybe what the original Christian had in mind...Good going...Although, it's long too late..The radicals of "my god is better than yours" will continue to dominate the field.
2
Alternately, one could accept the teachings of the Church.
3
If Christ is not risen we are all still in sin. He is risen, He is risen indeed.
4
I LOVE Nicholas Kristof.
But this interview is pointless. For some reason, the more knowledge that is out there, the dumber our species becomes. Here's yet another "person of faith" giving us the "real" lowdown on this endless delusion, answering the reasonable question of how to reconcile the idea of "God' with all the horrors in this world, and Ms. Jones uses the tried-and-true "God is beyond our knowing." Of course. That excuses everything.
But then, like every other "authority," she continues, "The God of Easter is vulnerable and is connected to the world in profound ways that don’t involve manipulating the world but constantly inviting us into love, justice, mercy."
In other words, God is beyond our knowing, yet somehow these religious authorities always seem to know EVERYTHING about him. What a load of rubbish.
1
Jones may be sincere, but her theology isn't. It's the age-old, usual heretic claptrap reformatting the story of Easter Redemption into a Hallmark Card of "love and kisses, and the amorphous belief that we don't need these ancient myths as we all are just perfectly wonderful human beings, only just a little rough around the edges sometimes". Nonsense! Read today's headlines about the slaughter in Sri Lanka and tell me how not in need of redemption the human race is.
Jones may be in a position of power at Union but she is only Christian by definition of her own confection. Readers should know that hers is not some "version" of Christianity. There is no version. Despite the silliness one sees in the responses here with all their supposedly valid variations of the Christian faith, it doesn't matter how anyone tries to dance it around -- without belief in the physical resurrection of Jesus, you may be religious, you may be a proponent of living a good life, but you are NOT a Christian. "Christian" is not a societal or moral code. By unalterable divine definition, Christian means a life lived in wondrous response to specific belief in a real and loving God as shown in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. It's not some cultural plaything or part of the pantheistic swill that flows from the sewers at 110th Street.
5
Reverend, Christian mythology is built on archetypes as are all religions and mythologies and thus should be read on the symbolic level. The symbolic level has a basic element of truth that speaks to the history of human knowledge and wisdom. As this applies to the Virgin Mary, in her Great Mother aspect, she is above sex, as are Great Mother symbols in Mexican or Greek mythology. The birth of Jesus is is to be seen as a perfect miracle. Anyone who has been in the barn for the birth of lambs or indeed seen any mother give the light knows that, in essence, all births are miraculous and Jesus's birth reminds us of that. In fact life itself is a miracle. Feel the 'mysterium Tremendum'.
The president of Union Theological Seminary sounds way too sane for organized religion.
Perhaps, like many atheists-in-training, she still enjoys the buildings, the religious rituals, tradition, the songs and the pews of people too much to fully let go, but you can tell she's getting there....'God' bless her....so to speak.
Serene Jones seems to understand that Christianity has more to do with the actual food of religion as opposed to the conservative-evangelical-Baptist version of Christianity that mostly practices eating and regurgitating the menu.
In the final analysis, we are all atheists, but many of us still cling to childhood and family fairy tales and community con games that soothe our irrational fears of death.
“The meaning of life is just to be alive. It is so plain and so obvious and so simple. And yet, everybody rushes around in a great panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves.”
- Alan Wilson Watts
Happy Easter - drink up !
67
@Socrates Don't make your atheism into a belief system. We have enough of that already. No assumptions please. At bottom this life is a great mystery. Assuming otherwise is just that—an assumption. The conceptual process cannot touch Reality
2
That's funny, didn't JC and St Paul both say that if the miracles accompanying JC never happened then the whole thing collapses.
4
The "Virgin Birth' is not about sexuality in any sense. Catholicism teaches that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was free from original sin. Thus, her soul was not stained.
This was a religious purity about the Incarnation.
4
Maybe someday being "religious" or "spiritual" won't amount to ignorance, superstition and credulity. But not today - and that is the problem and the struggle.
"There is a venomous “God Gap” in this country"...
I don't see a 'God Gap' in this country. But there are 360 different perspectives on what the word God means, what the purpose of one's life is, further, like the minister said, what it means to be human... and no one has the only right answer. Once we get past that, we all believe in love.
1
It is amazing that anyone would accept the gospel as gospel. It is fiction that was concocted by cult members many years after the supposed events. The New Testament is not the historical evidence of fact. It is only the belated record of delusions and myths created a cabal of early Christian fanatics. Belief is not fact, nor do the number of believers sanctify.
2
Jesus Christ's atonement consists of 3 things. 1) Jesus' suffering in the garden of Gethsemane. 2) Jesus' death on the cross. 3) His physical resurrection as an immortal Man.
Whether or not you believe it... this is a very basic and clear Christian doctrine that shouldn't be buried in a lot of shoulder shrugs and "who knows?!!"
6
My parents born 1919 were not baptised until after they married. Then after WW11 joined the Episcopal church as it seemed a good idea and the best for them. Then we moved so often that life became a blur for me. I picked up 'religion' as time went on. I read a lot of books, but never the entire Bible. I was confirmed, perhaps baptized.
In the 60's I studied Zen in books, while studying Physics. 1970 I gave up Nuclear Physics as I saw it as a path to evil. Still do. We are 2 minutes to Midnight.
2 deceased wives that wanted to sample churches endlessly. No idea what they wanted. Now I think a pipe organ is the voice of God. I love pipe organs.
But I know better.
I meditate and ruminate. I was angry with God for a long time.
Now I think a lot about life, God and humans.
I pray by myself. I do not prothletize. I am not lost. I tell friends I am a Believer. They say nothing.
I won't join any church.
The details of the Bible. The beliefs of others and the ways of any church are not my concern.
I trust in God as there is no other way. He began and begot. He turned nothing into something. It's binary to me. We were not and now we are.
I have had personal miracles happen to me. I was saved and brought back several times. Angels!
Peace be with us all.
Good night and good luck to steal a phrase.
1
"... the triumph of love in the midst of suffering."
What else is there, really, in any myth, in any story?
1
Easter and Passover. Easter, named after the Saxon goddess of Spring. Passover. Named after the massacre of Egyptian children. We humans come up with some very interesting stories to tell ourselves. Some amazing gods and goddesses. Crucifixion, beheading, the rack, burning at the stake. We humans come up with amazing ways to terrorize each other. Jesus. Spartacus. Joan of Arc. Some humans with some exposure to our ways. Virgin Birth. Lots of them. All the great emperors came up with that story or if not them, their court poets.
Decide for yourself if Serene agrees with the creed which the majority of Christians (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) for centuries have affirmed and believed:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.
8
I don’t believe in “ God “, but I do believe in Mother Earth. And She has been raped and sorely abused by Humans for way too long. If “we “ continue on this path, we deserve everything we get. Period.
4
Not to suggest that I am a Bible scholar but I read a comment made by another once upon a time that back in those days of Jesus rape law, such that is was, considered a child born as a result of a forceful rape a virgin birth. That is to say, if a virgin, chaste woman was raped through no fault of her own she was treated and considered as if the rape never happened at all. For all practical purposes she was still considered a pious and morally pure virgin. So if a pregnancy resulted from such a rape it was considered a virgin birth. I have no idea if this is actually true or not but the person sounded just as believable as the Bible.
1
So... the Gospel/New Testament writers were a bunch of deluded liars?? If there is no virgin birth and no resurrection, then that must be the conclusion. Just a bunch of liars telling lies. Miracles are by definition difficult to get understand. A 90 year old woman giving birth, the giving of Torah at the foot of Sinai, the pillar of cloud by day, and pillar of fire by night, etc. My point is this: The testimony of the eye witnesses is either true or it is not. And that for me is why I believe these ancient writings we call The Bible.
3
In one of the Scriptures for Easter (Acts 10:34-35) Peter states a principle that goes beyond Christianity: “God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears God and does what is right.” That sounds like Jesus, who said only two things matter: “Love God.” and “Love your neighbor.” It’s not about theology, or creed, denomination, or faith tradition. God does not show favoritism but accepts everyone who loves. Serene Jones is right: "Love is true."
PS: Atheists can substitute "Love the Universe."
1
This is a really sad interview, because it's two people who clearly have refused to consider doing what is necessary to understand religious faith.
You don't learn to believe by criticizing the doctrinal assertions of a faith from outside. You learn to believe by committing yourself to practicing a religion (both ritually and morally) and letting the Divine Presence work on you from within. You consistently resist the temptation to reject propositions because you find them "too hard" or you think you're "too smart" for them. Over the course of a lifetime, you gradually come to understand in what sense things like the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection are true.
But if you start out thinking religious belief is just for dumb people, or if you start out by refusing to consider that maybe your "gay" friend is doing something very wrong, you're refusing to let God talk to you. You can't learn to know God by telling him He can't tell you anything you don't want to hear.
4
"What if tomorrow someone found the body of Jesus still in the tomb? Would that then mean that Christianity was a lie?"
Yes it would, as Jesus did not overcome death and would not be who he said he was, the son of God.
But, contrary to the thoughts of Reverend Jones, Christ did rise from the dead and was seen by hundreds of people in the 40 days following his resurrection. The link below is an index to those passages in the Bible referencing those who saw Jesus post resurrection.
http://factsandfaith.com/the-witnesses-who-and-how-many-people-saw-jesus-alive-after-his-crucifixion/
Happy Easter to all. He is risen!
3
"an abusive God-father who sends his own kid to the cross so God could forgive people is nuts" has become a common trope with liberal Christians. What it neglects is that the Son is the 2nd person of the Trinity. In classic, orthodox theology the death of Christ isn't divine child abuse, it's true God from true God dying with and on behalf of humanity.
5
Religions "steal" from one another. Since "Virgin Birth" is doing well up the coast at Tyre, we'll try it here. If Virgin Birth doesn't catch on, we'll ditch it and find another novelty.
In order to wrap up old disputes, we should have another, bigger dispute.
1
Thank you. My second great grandfather was a graduate of Union College in the 1830's, 1835 I think. The responses here bear some similarities to his writing style.
So Christianity is whatever you want it to be, it’s stories are true or false, depending on what you want them to be, it’s rules for behavior are to be followed or not depending on whether or not you want to follow them, and whatever you believe is true because you feel it is true. This is a perfect summation of my decades of observations of self-declared Christians: they pick and choose, accept or reject, based on what they want, or don’t want to do/ believe/ force others to do.
1
Having grown up, and married, in the Catholic Church I recall my youth as a time of staying within the stated boundaries - particularly as to matters sexual. The process, which I didn't question at the time, involved committing a mortal sin and then hoping to get to confession before something happened to me. I don't look back at this time with hostility, it probably helped me avoid some situations. I eventually 'dropped out' and lived most of my adult life neutral on the subject.
Now, at 80, I am questioning the matters which religious faith has separated us from each other. The fatal episodes based on religious belief are too many to dismiss. A bombing in Sri Lanka comes to mind.
Finally, I settled on the thoughts of E.O. Wilson, who asserts we are fully the product of evolution.
In response to 'where does this leave us' Wilson responds by stating:
" we can more easily diagnose the etiology of the irrational beliefs that so unjustifiably divide us. Laid before us are new options scarcely dreamed of in earlier ages. They empower us to address with more confidence the greatest goal of all time, the unity of the human race.
Makes sense to me.
2
Thank you, Nick, for creating such a stimulating conversation this year about what Christianity means. I know that this has been your intent annually in creating these pieces, but unfortunately your subjects in years past have been more representative of old religion or fundamentalist belief than a true, honest, intellectual exchange of ideas. What a wonderful choice in Reverend Jones! For those of us who have our doubts or those of us who truly don't believe, this is precisely the conversation that we need. Maybe Jesus was just a man or maybe he didn't exist at all, but there's a REASON that his story has lived on and resonated with so many people. There are those of us who don't consider ourselves Christian who nonetheless believe that Jesus' example was/is the gold standard of human behavior. Thank you providing this exchange today.
2
We wake up today with 200 people blown to bits in Sri Lanka with religious overtones all over the deed. Isn't it time we humans take a good look at the bizarre claims of most religions and the things they make us do?
3
1 Corinthians 15: 12-20 is as clear about the bodily resurrection as language can be. Orthodox Christian faith is built, not on a set of good ideas — no matter how lovely. Christian faith is built on Good News — the heralding of a truth. Something happened in the world that forever changed the world. That something is the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the grave. Anything less might be a good idea, but it is not Christian faith.
4
Why the tortured rationalizations to excuse centuries of insane religious bigotry and myth making? There is no god, it is an invention of old men. There was no historical Jesus, at least in the supernatural form.
So to worship at the alter of Christianity is to worship a false god.
For every minute one wastes on that endeavor, one is stopping him/herself from the reality of this life.
No Greek gods, or Roman gods, or god, on Mt. Olympus or elsewhere. Perhaps Easter is a good time to wake from the dream and walk about in peace and simplicity.
Hugh
2
“One evening about sundown, before Joseph had returned home, Gabriel appeared to Mary by the side of a low stone table and, after she had recovered her composure, said: “I come at the bidding of one who is my Master and whom you shall love and nurture. To you, Mary, I bring glad tidings when I announce that the conception within you is ordained by heaven, and that in due time you will become the mother of a son; you shall call him Joshua, and he shall inaugurate the kingdom of heaven on earth and among men. Speak not of this matter save to Joseph and to Elizabeth, your kinswoman, to whom I have also appeared, and who shall presently also bear a son, whose name shall be John, and who will prepare the way for the message of deliverance which your son shall proclaim to men with great power and deep conviction. And doubt not my word, Mary, for this home has been chosen as the mortal habitat of the child of destiny. My benediction rests upon you, the power of the Most Highs will strengthen you, and the Lord of all the earth shall overshadow you.” - The Urantia Book, part 4
1
The goalposts just keep a-moving, don't they, Christians? Just keep retreating into the ever-shrinking pockets of darkness and unknowns, spouting Bible verses. I'll go with science, thank you. Science will always leave a pocket or two of ignorance for you to stand on, and say, "This, right here, is what God did." But that's the same sort of thought process that gave us ... wait for it ... the man in the Oval Office. Sorry if that stung. Word.
Hmmm. So you cannot manipulate God with prayer. The virgin birth is made up , a myth. Not really sure what happens when you die. This is not a vengeful God that the Bible speaks of. God does not plan every single event or maybe plans no events.
Sounds like maybe the whole thing is a myth, written by man. Perhaps with the intent of giving hope and guidance, but with manipulation as it’s result.
Happy Easter.
1
The notion that Jesus was the "only son" of God is reputed in Genesis regarding the birth of Isaac, second son of Abraham (Isjmael ) and the "first" brith from Sarah. Sahar couldn't have a child so God got her pregnant since Abraham was too old. It's in Genesis. That's the truth, if you believe in the Bible and Genesis.
There is no Christianity without a resurrection. Christianity is based around that historical event. The Apostle Paul addressed this in his first letter to the Corinthians when he said that “we are of all people most to be pitied” if Christ did not rise again.
“If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.”
5
This article is a slap in the face to believing and practicing Christians. And on Easter Sunday no less which is the most important Christian holy day on our calendar.
This is feeding into the Christian hate of so many. Are you aware there are over 2 billion Christians worldwide?
3
Outstanding! Without question, the definitive definition of the word "OPINION" but like the old saw goes, "we all have one;-)"
TY NYT for giving voice to this the day before a religions most holy holiday. Looking forward to seeing similar pieces on Islam and Judiasm, as if....
4
Thanks for bringing in the Protestant to use the 500-year fillet on the Catholic faith.
Happy Easter indeed.
1
In the course of my medical training I saw a case of essentially a partially imperforate or scarred (FGM)hymen where the patient was miscarrying but could not pass the products of conception, and required surgical intervention. She was young and recently married but had been unable to have intercourse. My gynecology professor basically spelled it out for us that semen near the small vaginal opening had made it all the way in. It was technically a virgin conception.
Luke was a physician as well and believed in the resurrection. In any case, obviously Jesus is alive and all around us two thousand years later. Happy Easter.
Someone needs to go alert St Paul and all the original Christians that the Resurrection was just a metaphor!
6
"I will not and cannot continue to conduct services in praise and worship of this angry, petulant old man in whom you believe. You've turned your backs on the God of love and compassion and invented for yourselves this cruel, senile, delinquent who blames the world and all that he created for his own faults! Close your windows. Close your doors! Close your hearts - against the truth of our God!" -- spoken by the character T. Lawrence Shannon in the John Huston movie based on the Tennessee Williams play Night of the Iguana.
1
Does Reverend Jones even believe that Jesus existed? Does she believe in heaven and hell? Is this what the Methodist faith teaches. Is she even a Christian? Is this a new wave faith?
5
Thanks to Kristof and NYT, I just encountered one of the most revealing thoughts which I’ve ever read since 20xx. Three strikes for me: 1. The crucifixion is the 1st century lynching. 2. Hell is our creation. 3. The whole paragraph about the virgin birth. 1 is true and truly patient to certain cases in our era. Under the pretense of justice brought by legal process, today’s lynching are going on without cross. 2 is a powerfully right claim, because the binary of Heaven and Hell can be traced back to the anthological as its origin. 3 is true as well. The tradition of virgin worship is very patriarchal, but, in general, youth counts more than intact hymns. That the words as language or tongue, if not logos, enter the virgin’s ears for the conception is a part of Christian theology, which would not go beyond seminaries. The interview touches very deep theme of today. I stop here. Happy Easter!
Jesus, the Christ, that I now believe in is for us all (Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, and atheists). The first few paragraphs of John’s Gospel speaks of Christ coming into the world as the Word made flesh. Words are metaphor for thought. The words are God’s thoughts for us; and his flesh embody God putting those words into action.
What are those thoughts then? Love your neighbor (the parable of the Good Samaritan), God’s love is endless (the parable of prodigal son), forgive again and again (defending the woman at the well saying “let him without sin cast the first stone, and directives to forgive 7 times 70 times….), the Beatitudes, directions to feed the hungry, welcome the stranger, cloth the naked, love your enemies,.and on.... Such radical thoughts for human kind! (And not really rational thoughts at all for tribal societies—as demonstrated even today by our conduct toward each other).
And his actions? Healing, accompanying the “least” in society, weeping for others, and ultimately being abandoned and slayed upon a tree—yet forgiving through it all (“forgive them for they do not know what they do”).
These radical thoughts (expressed in Words) and actions (expressed in human flesh) – divine and transcendent thoughts and actions-- struck a cord in hearts then and now -- 2000 years later-- as a desire for and guide to the transcendent life.
In this holiday period, a Happy Easter and Passover to all.
194
@John
This world needs a whole lot more people who think like you!
11
@John Words are metaphor for thoughts....
Americans are not very good in linguistics.
7
@John
None of what you say has ever played a role in my life. And those "radical thoughts" weren't radical; they were in the minds of many well before the time in which your story takes place.
A transcendent life comes with developing good character & learning about your world, neither of which require that we embrace ancient myth. From my earliest days I've been fascinated by watching people participate in religions of all kinds, and nothing I have seen suggests that I should view it with anything more than skepticism.
8
"Nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' -- for the Kingdom of God is within you."
Throughout this precious life, the source of life itself, the gift of each breath, comes graciously into me.
I love to compare the qualities of breath with the character of God, the life force - both are kind, constant, unconditional, life-giving, gentle, generous, merciful, unbiased and quietly powerful.
So how far do I really need to go to feel and know the divine? How complicated is each breath? How much of a mystery is this beautiful energy that nurtures and fulfills my being?
Fortunately, the divine has a good sense of humor because it knows that I am a bit dense and with a tendency to be distracted, even duped. So to compensate it put the answer, the source, the root of divinity in the most accessible place possible, right under my nose, right within my heart.
Check it out. Take your exquisite capacity to focus and direct it to feel the sweet divinity that pervades your every breath. Go deep and discover the endless peace and well-being that is the essence of every breath. Feel the real fulfillment that has always existed right at hand.
Obviously, the divine plan meant for me to readily experience the innate joy within, to know the divine, to appreciate this gracious design and delve into the beautiful realm of understanding life.
It's a set-up, a dance, a lovely game.
Let's face it. Having the heart of a child helps a lot.
My resurrection takes place with every breath.
1
Very invigorating interview!
Re: the notion of Virgin Birth: Mary is described by Mark as 'pregnant without a husband', but with 'child of the Holy Ghost', and there's controversy over the meaning of the word for 'virgin' used in the original texts. There's also reference to the parable of the 10 virgins, five of which were "ready for their bridegroom," meaning God, or Christ, so virginity may be a prophetic metaphor.
Virgin birth is the Church's first step in the deification of Jesus; however, the original church was steeped in pagan birth mythology, not Judaism The 2nd step is the deification of Jesus' mother, via the dogma of Immaculate Conception, not brought into effect until the 19th century. I like a lot of what this minister says, however, it's hard to see any Christianity shorn of the doctrine of Resurrection.
1
I respect Mr. Kristof for trying to present us with different points of view on Christianity, but if Martin Luther had propagated this kind of politically correct nonsense in his time, the church authorities in Rome would have safely concluded that they had nothing to worry about!
4
Really enjoy this series of articles and this one in particular.
I am a church going Episcopalian. Our congregation is made up of conservative, liberals and moderates like me. I think I saw a bumper sticker for every candidate running in both primaries in 2016. We all get along. We are a wonderful, giving and loving community.
I agree with this minister in so many ways. some of the more religious types who it seems happen to be the loudest, imho, make God so small (earth is only 6,000 years old versus billions; God made man in one day versus evolution) when billions and the universe and evolution is even more extraordinary. Also I wonder at how some Christians must have every word in the Bible be absolutely true and any push back or historical /archeological conflict must be fought as it doesn't match the Bible. Again, while I love reading and studying the bible and discussing what the message is for me and how I live, I don't need it to be literal for me to have faith and try! to live in love.
Happy Easter everyone!
1
This is very close to what one hears in Unitarian Universalist churches! We value the teachings of Jesus--at base, so simple, to love God and treat your neighbor well. If all people who call themselves "Christian" would do that, what a wonderful world we might have. The teachings of Jesus were a break-through because he honored love above laws and rituals--a truly universal approach to life. And love and life seem more precious if not seen as a passport to some unproven heaven, but if we try to make THIS one and only one closer to the concept of heaven on earth.
2
A Christianity without any commitment to miracles, resurrection, or an afterlife? This clearly isn't Christianity, unless you think that anyone can define words however they want. Jones is basically an atheist inspired by humanistic values she finds in the New Testament. (One might similarly fashion a religion out Shakespeare, or Beatles songs.) I'm an atheist as well, so that's fine with me. But it's delusional to call it Christianity.
5
Is Serene Jones a Christian?
Jones seems to be trying to occupy an atheistic space that looks like Christianity. It strikes me as a dishonest approach to faith, perhaps an evolutionary step designed to draw in new generations of skeptics (and their tithes).
As humans, we can choose to behave like animals and draw on our senses and observable information available to us to make the best decisions we can with a chief eye toward the survival of our species (or some other debatable standard grounded in the physical world, i.e. our shared reality), or we can follow some amorphous, individualized conscience with an imagined connection to the supernatural.
They are mutually exclusive options. The first does not allow for the second, and the second cannot allow for the first, though it would allow for every other imagined possibility.
Jones seems unwilling or unable to choose between the two.
2
Thank you, Serene Jones, for having the courage and intelligence to articulate the truth about the mythology of the resurrection which largely escapes most communities believing themselves to be Christians.
2
The execution by crucifixion of a mortal man whose enlightened teachings presented revolutionary threat to the reigning power sector. What it constituted was a political killing in real time. Then came the fantastical. For what the Resurrection represents is what can be said to signify the belief systems of each of the big three religions. Human constructs derived from the minds of primitive men living in ancient eras that some two thousand years into the future humanity still subscribes to and will not relinquish.
1
Serene Jones: "The crucifixion is a first-century lynching."
Not exactly. Lynching is extrajudicial killing. Jesus was given some due process, because Pilate acts as a sort of judge:
* 'But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”' (John 19:6, NIV)
* '“Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”' (John 19:10, NIV)
* 'When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha).' (John 19:13, NIV)
Serene Jones: "It couldn’t be more pertinent to our world today."
If all the theological baggage is ignored, a loose analogy would be with a US President approving a drone strike on a US citizen.
2
Christianity to me is following the life of Jesus; with the core tenet being "love one another as yourself". No miracles needed. No Virgin birth needed. No resurrection need. No Trinity needed. No Assumption needed.
3
Paul's obsession with a crucified man being resurrected created the Christianity that is not collapsing.
2
no belief in the Virgin birth, no belief
in the resurrection! how does she even
consider herself a Christian? or she is
a sort of a politically correct Christian
who cherry picks her beliefs to fit what
she considers the fashions of the day?
I was very disappointed with this column.
4
The teachings of Jesus are Revolutionary. You can tell a real Christian by their attitude towards the Poor and Sick not their belief in a Resurrection and a Virgin Birth.
6
“You sound a lot like me and I’m a Christian minister.” Yes, one that doesn’t believe in Scripture being inspired by God, doesn’t believe the eyewitness accounts of the Gospels, doesn’t believe in the Divinity of Christ, doesn’t believe in the resurrection, which is the vindication of Christ by God, and the promise of eternal life for those who trust and obey. In fact you are left with something that is not “offensive to the Jews”, nor “foolishness to the Greeks” (1 Cor 1:23), and can be believed by anybody who is not a Christian, which, until the modern age, is what you would have been described as.
4
If the author believes as I do that God is the creator of the universe omnipresent omnipotent, and we see the vastness of His creation isn’t Jesus virgin birth and resurrection a simple leap of faith? Christ’s teaching of loving your neighbor as you love God are eternal truths, just as his birth and resurrection are. Happy Easter, He is risen.
3
The definition of "Christian" is a belief in the passion, death, resurrection and ascension of the Lord.
One can do many good deeds but without this firm belief one is not a Christian.
Jesus was either a charlatan, a mad man or God and man.
If a charlatan, would 12 devout Jews follow him for three years?
If a mad man, would these same 12 hard working men follow him?
If these 12 men did not believe that Jesus is the Christ then why did they give their lives for him. They knew what to expect from Rome. These men were not fools.
5
People have sacrificed their lives for cults..Religious beliefs.. since the beginning of time..
A few current examples...Jim Jones....Isis.....
Jones is providing such lovely answers to these questions, and I say that as a Jew. So why is Kristof being borderline belligerent? It reads like he can’t appreciate or even wrap his mind around what Jones is saying, which is unfortunate because we need her message in this day and age.
1
Anybody can call themselves a Christian so long as they like Jesus. This is the liberal ethos of Protestantism. There is no dogma.
2
"Love is stronger than death" is a nice message, and voiced in many ways in many cultures and many faiths. But do we need institutionalized religion to tell us that? Do we need the hierarchies, cathedrals, tiaras, inquisitions, religious wars, fraudsters in revival tents and television networks, theocratic nations armed to the teeth, gold plated statues, rapist protection networks, hypocritical politicians, endless disputes about the meaning of a phrase in the "sacred" texts, sanctioned shunning and ostracism, condemnation to eternal hell-fires, know-nothing bigotry, denial of scientific reality -- is all that a help or a hindrance to the practice of essential humanity?
2
Looking forward to hearing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.......
As an atheist I feel unaffected by any of this, but if I was to be a christian believer...Romans 10,9-10 states that confessing with the mouth that Jesus is lord and believe with your heart God raised him from the dead....to be saved. I would think about that resurrection part long and hard...lol.
3
The Judeo-Christian God is a mythical god that thrives on human misery, suffering, guilt, fear, misogyny, and death! Christianity is Hellenized Judaism as proclaimed by Constantine as a Roman faith (312 C.E). All religions are the result of myth, legends and fables and embrace “Faith” and enshrined it as a noble human achievement and the faithful believers view reality through the perverted lens of their religiosity. As Richard Dawkins stated that faith is “an excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence.” Voltaire said, “Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” Steven Weinberg Nobel Laureate, Physics said “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
2
I'm kinda surprised that the most important part of the Christianity, the resurrection, is being dismissed by this Reverend and so many people in the comments. If Jesus did not rise from the dead he was just another man, and all those promises of salvation mean nothing.
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins (1 Corinthians 15:17).
7
"If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied."
St. Paul, I Corinthians:15:17-19
4
Rather than jump through all the hoops of modern “Christian” denial of the original stories, would it not be easier and more honest for the minister to accept that the concept of god was formed de novo by our primitive ancestors and that modern religion is a sham? Just get over it and move on! There is no friend in the sky to have “faith” in!
1
No matter who you look at it Easter is bizarre. First off the entire Jesus saga was not written until about 200 after his death making everything pretty much fiction. The virgin birth was not mentioned back in those old old days because if anyone was stupid enough to bring it up they would have been burned to death. Frankly I'm fed up with all religions they are the supreme source for all our hate and all our wars and we never learn from our past.
2
Actually virgin birth was mentioned in 1st Century Palestine.....many times. It was an era of increasing interest in the supernatural and mysticism...There is a valid argument regarding the plagiarism that contributed to the rise of Christianity.
In this day and age, why are we still talking this gibberish?
Fact. Christianity is a cult of human sacrifice, predicated on the idea that the world was about to end in the lifetime of his followers. Hence Christ's exhortation to take no thought for the morrow.
As Freud observed, most people are afraid of death and are suckers for the idea that their souls will have life everlasting.
5
Amen, whatever that means. Or ditto.
1
Today, another massacre in Churches, this time in Ceylan.
A group of humans want to show the world that their “Imaginary Friend” is the real ONE, not the “Imaginary Friend” who’s resurrection is being celebrated on Easter.
Religions poison everything.
1
One can believe in the resurrection or not believe in it, and I guess you can still call yourself a Christian. But the chief advocate/proponent/missionary of Christianity in the First Century — a guy named Saul (Paul) of Tarsus — said in one of his writings, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More then that, we are found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead . . . If Christ has not been raised, then your faith is futile . . . If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." (1 Cor. 15:14-19) So the non-resurrected Christ of Rev. Jones cannot the same resurrected Christ of the Apostle Paul. Just sayin'.
7
A question for you, Mr.Kristof and Serene Jones:
Is Jesus God or a prophet/holy man as stated by Muslims?
3
If you strip away the miracles and the "jealous God" who promises an eternity of Hell if you don't worship him, you have stripped away the primitive and barbaric aspects of religion.
And what are you left with? An attempt at a religion to transform itself into a philosophy. Philosophy submits claims to reason, which sometimes means, not an answer, but a swearing off of an answer to that which has no rational answer.
It will never happen. Maybe at the seminaries it will, but among the masses, I am always disturbed that the primitive and barbaric aspects of the religion are the main draw. And as the hierarchies of these cultural artifacts weaken, the barbaric and primitive aspects ascend in power.
Religion is retreating historically as well as demographically.
But good luck with trying to break the spell of these primal lures that religion has used for centuries, and on which, in fact, all religions are built.
1
I think were at the point now where the the basics of Christianity are easily vulnerable to science and fact, so we see columns like today’s where a minister pretty much rejects the important tenets of the religion. Heaven, Hell, virgin birth, resurrection? Not necessary anymore, evidently. My take on this is that as humanity in general becomes more educated, the Bible stories, much like classical mythology, are understood to be stories handed down rather than historical events.
What doesn’t fly anymore are the “supernatural” parts of religion. Sure, Jesus was a historical figure, but is there evidence of anything more than that? Miracles? Resurrection? Angels? Of course not. But today’s column tries to have it both ways. If we acknowledge that there is no supernatural aspect to the life of Jesus, what is religion?
3
At the heart of religions are myths. Any sentient being who looks at the claims of religion realistically, especially the monotheistic religions, must come to the conclusion that none of their claims can be supported.
4
How is it possible, that someone in the highest position at a seminary, appears to have not done even a cursory reading of the Gospel of Mark?
She claims that the ressurrection is not included. Reading Mark chapter 16, it contains several references to the appearance of the risen Jesus to individuals and to groups.
Believe it or don't believe it. But shoe horning one's opinions into the Scriptural text is simply scholarship at it's worst.
6
@Mark Lloret It is possible because no serious Biblical scholar (fundamentalists aside) believes that Mark as originally written contained any verses beyond the Crucifixion. The Resurrection details in Mark are a later addition to the text. The Gospels themselves were written from about 20-30 years after Christ's death (Mark) to as much as a hundred years later (John). None were written by the original apostles.
Here's a fun test: Read the four Resurrections accounts, then answer:
1) Who found the empty tomb?
2) Was it before or after sunrise?
3) Was the stone in place or rolled away?
4) How many angels were present?
5) Was (were) the angel(s) inside or outside of the tomb?
6) Where was the risen Christ first met and by whom?
7) How many days did the risen Christ stay on earth?
8) On what day was Jesus crucified (relative to Passover)?
Bonus questions: Matthew says there was a large earthquake when Christ died and that many "saints" were risen and went into the city and wandered about.
1) Why does no one else report this remarkable event?
2) Where did the risen "saints" go (and were they clothed)?
The thing I find sad is how cursory a reading believers give to the Bible. Most atheists know the Bible better than most "Christians".
1
At last, a Christian minister that makes sense to me.
I debated whether to attend Easter service at our village church but decided that my act of attending would be hypocritical. The physical resurrection and virgin birth are human constructs and not historical facts. I am more inclined to see the powerful symbolism of Easter as one of Hope--hope in our potential as human beings. In speaking about the darkness of our current political climate Valarie Kaur asked: "What if this is not the darkness of the tomb, but the darkness of the womb?" In the Gospel of John, we are reminded that the light came into the world and the darkness could not suppress it. We are both the dark and the light. If are empowered by the light within us and not surrender to our worst impulses, we can transform our world into one of peace and justice.
2
"Which is more likely, that the whole of the natural order should be suspended (in the guise of a virgin birth) or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?" - David Hume (on miracles.)
2
Note to God:
It would be easier if you just came down for a few minutes and told us which religion is the "true" one so we can stop killing each other. Wouldn't keep you more then quarter hour and you can pop right back up.
Also, as you know we now have cameras, mobile phones and video capability. You can stop "revealing" yourself on pieces of toast. Kindly send a selfie and a video of 3-5 of your most recent miracles. Would definitely be a Big Bang at Instagram.
Thanks and Happy Easter to you and yours. Especially the Lad.
6
Judaism is easier to accept and understand. We are not concerned with virgin births, crucifixion, political intrigue of the Romans or the money changers of the Temple. There is only one god. A good old-fashioned jealous god that only asks that we, the Jews, abide by ten rules.
The God of the Jews does not offer heaven or hell. There is no hell in Judaism or promise of life after death. There is no resurrection, or redemption or rebirth. We do not pray to saints or ask for the intervention of the Mother of God.
Our god has no name, or form. He is indivisible. One.
The Jews do have better angels. Sometimes we wrestle with them. The Jews argue with god and make better bargains. Ask Noah. Sometimes the Jews rebel and are punished as at Sinai.
The Jews also believe in prayer.
At the end of life there is a prayer that offers this; God keeps faith with those who sleep in the dust. In other words god remembers us and keeps us within him/herself. We are eternally part of God.
If that is all there is then let us say "Dayenu". It shall be enough.
We, the Jews, are now celebrating Passover. In doing so we are like our God because we remember. That too is enough.
Passover is also remembrance of suffering and bondage. "So how do we, Jews, reconcile an omnipotent, omniscient God with evil and suffering?"
We don't. God is a mystery. Dayenu.
Good Passover. Happy Easter.
5
Thank you for an interesting and timely interview with The Rev. Jones this Easter weekend! I am a long-time member of the United Methodist Church —and have stayed with this denomination because of a belief in social justice and standing up for people who have been marginalized. The tenets of our faith were handed down by John Wesley whose ministry focused on the poor and forgotten in London in the 1800s. (Now we are faced with removing the language of LBGTQ!)
For those who were so inspired by Jesus to tell and write such incredible stories 2,000 years ago that have endured through the ages are a testament to an enduring faith. Are the stories literally true? I don’t think so, but the examples of the ministry of Jesus meant something profound to the storytellers. In their zeal, they crossed some boundaries in writing stories with a lot of imagination and imagery. I never thought it an important part of my faith to believe literally in the Virgin Birth, the physical Resurrection, or the afterlife of a Heaven or Hell.
The gift of Jesus that solidifies my faith is Love for others (including those who are “unlovable”), Charity (for those who are marginalized), Hope (that humanity will endure), Forgiveness (allowing me to wipe the slate clean), and to live each day by Grace.
4
I am saddened that on Easter Sunday your above-the-fold opinion piece questions the core precepts of Christianity. The NYT does it again.
6
What a thoughtful dialog. I, myself look askance at a virgin birth and the presence of Heaven and Hell. I think both of them are right here on earth. I have to admit I never thought of the reasoning for a virgin birth quite like that.
We are learning so much more about this planet we inhabit and the different animals that share it with us so we are constantly having to change what we know about both planet and animals. That, to me is Heaven and fills me with AWE.
1
I think Jones is basically right, but it won’t be easy to persuade most people who think they are “Christians.” The early followers of Jesus evidently had a lot of trouble getting people to believe his radical message of peace and love. So they invented all the other stuff (virgin birth, resurrection, salvation, damnation, etc.) and turned Jesus into a gatekeeper for “heaven” or “hell” based not on whether you loved your neighbor, but on whether you “believed” in Jesus as a god, or “son of god.” Paul, who never knew Jesus personally and probably would not have liked him if he had, carries much of the blame for burying the original message under a mountain of theologizing and proselytizing. He was the one who laid the groundwork for building an authoritarian church based on fear, like the one that has made so many evangelical preachers and the Catholic hierarchy rich. Unfortunately that came at the cost of a total distortion of Jesus’ message of radical transformation. Fortunately we can still find fragments of that message in the sermon on the mount and a few of the parables. The transformative impact could be seen in the communist society established by some of Jesus’ early followers, who were of course attacked by people like Paul, before he “saw the light” and created a new religion while sanitizing its message. By doing this “in Jesus’ name,” Paul betrayed Jesus even more effectively than Judas did. Only when we dump the superstition will we truly change the world.
1
Mr. Kristoff, I usually like your articles which inspire us to recognize and act to relieve the tragedies of this world. I wonder why you choose this Easter Sunday, a day of great hope for Christians all over the world, to interview a Christian theologian who denies exactly what we celebrate today. It is the reality of the resurrection that inspires Christians like me to go to the island of Lesbos (where I am today) to do what I can to help the refugees pouring in from the Middle East and North Africa.
St. Paul ends his great chapter on the resurrection with these words. “Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.”
1 Corinthians 15:58
3
My fundamentalist Christian teachings included that homosexuals should be put to death. (Leviticus) Wives should submit to their husbands in all matters. (Ephesians) Those teachings included that Jews would burn in hell. After all they killed Jesus. Also Catholics were damned as they were papists. Of course all other religions were false and their followers were also doomed. The list goes on and on. Getting crowed down there.
Evangelicals were responsible, more than any other group, for electing Donald Trump. 83% of evangelical Christians voted for Trump in 2016. Nothing has changed with this group since 2016. There has been a slow loss of membership in fundamentalist churches. Will it make a difference in future elections? Not anytime soon in deep red states. Swing states maybe.
1
Let’s see, Jesus may or may not have been resurrected, the claim of his virgin birth bizarre, God cannot be expected to respond to prayer, there may or may not be an afterlife but Hell, at least, does not exist.
Look, for the past 2000 years Christianity has been promising eternal salvation in a full fledged Heaven for all those who believe in the divinity of Jesus and eternal damnation in the fires of Hell for all those who don’t, and the consequences have been catastrophic for everyone.
So let us hope that ‘the structures of religion as we know it have come up bankrupt and are collapsing’. Indeed, the sooner they do, the better off we all will be.
1
It should be noted that Christianity in its original form, Catholic Christianity- the only form (in the west) for 1500 years- does very much believe in the virgin birth (Mary is a major Catholic player, not really mentioned by the Reverend) and the bodily resurrection, as well as a heaven and hell and a Pope who succeeded directly from St. Peter.
What Reverend Jones describes is a liberal, American form of protestant Christianity. That's all good. But one would hope the head of a theological seminary would make the distinction, so Mr Kristof's readers don't think the world's 2 billion Catholics don't believe in the resurrection on Easter morning!
3
"At the heart of faith is mystery. God is beyond our knowing, not a being or an essence or an object."
With all due respect to Reverend Jones, she starts out with the above before proceeding to define God as she sees Him.
That quibble aside, I actually agree with an awful lot of what she says. As a Catholic, I have to admit that some of my faith makes little sense, while Reverend Jones's explanation of the Easter Story holds more of a message for today's age.
In my religion, the concept of hell is less a "place" ruled by Satan than the deprivation of God's love. Newer church teachings seem to say that those who turn their back on God don't know what they're missing.
And yet, I keep coming back to the mystery of faith, a phrase uttered following a key moment of the Mass, right after the Transubstantiation.
Belief depends what many Catholics say is a "leap" of faith, the willingness to suspend a demand that spirit follow science.
In any event, Nicholas Kristof, and Serene Jones, a most blessed Easter, no matter how you see it.
2
It is encouraging to see a vision of Christianity that is more than unbelievable stories, incredible claims, vicious threats of eternal damnation, and mindless conformity to morally dubious rules creating hell on Earth.
2
My mother and father sent me to church as an 8 year old, they would drop me off, then pick me up at noon. After a period of a couple of years, I asked them, "Why don't you go to church?" My mother said, "I don't believe in it." "Why do you make me go?" She replied, "I want you to decide for yourself. If you'd like to try a different church, we can do that. Or none at all." I truly appreciate the approach she took, it made me realize, by telling a child, "This is how it is, This is the only way, all those other people in other religions and those that don't believe, are all misguided. And they are wrong." It occurred to me, that is why they want the kids to join early. If you tell them, "Ours is the only truth", you're proving to them that you don't have enough faith in them, to choose their own way. And putting a little kid into an intimidating environment, where dissent is not allowed, where free thought is frowned upon, and being forced to believe something that is truly unbelieveable, is pretty much the definition of brainwashing. And for the most part, you aren't going to convince an adult, that he has to believe in some completely unbelieveable stories, or he'll burn in hell for eternity.
At their season of renewal, it is encouraging even to devout atheists to hear a Christian leader send a message that Christianity can be better than unbelievable stories, impossible claims, threats of eternal damnation, and mindless conformity to morally dubious rules all seemingly made up to further the very secular wealth and power over others that serves so well to create an all too real hell for humans here on Earth.
2
Reverend Jones,
If your answer to “what happens when we die?” is “I don’t know!” then how can you be “absolutely certain that when we die, there is not a group of designated bad people sent to burn in hell.”?
Either you know or you don’t know.
2
I was surprised to read a seminary president’s words that there may not be an afterlife, and that there is no hell. My thoughts exactly, but for me, that doesn’t discredit the value of following Christ’s model of showing love and compassion to those who need it. There were several years when I couldn’t bring myself to attend church, where we weekly recite words of creeds that the part of me grounded in rational thought struggled mightily with. But taking a step back, or forward, to think about a less literal understanding of what those words can mean, I no longer struggle. There’s so much more depth to be gleaned if we recognize we don’t have to absorb the stories or the creeds literally. That’s where Jones’ thoughts take us. I wish this message received greater emphasis in mainline Protestantism than it has in recent years, and greater publicity.
1
With so much seemingly left to interpretation, the bible us like the original “choose your own adventure” book. Pick and choose what you want to believe. How is the author so certain that hell does not exist, but uncertain about heaven. This is part of why I lost my religious belief - not so much the parts of the bible I find uncomfortable, but how easily the faithful dismiss them.
1
For the Christian world in which many of us live -- whether we like it or not -- we certainly have not learned much in the past 2000 years. If Jesus does exist, and if he is a member of the Trinity, and if was seriously considering a Second Coming, I would imagine his thought would be as this, "Screw it. Why bother".
Alan Lightman says it best in his book Einstein's Dream, the reality of our existence which comes to an end at the time of death. However it is a mystery. Even scientists are baffled. Look at Black Holes, which can swallow galaxies, even light and time.
The virgin birth can be supported by science.
Genetic material is very ingenious. No self-respecting biologist or geneticist would make a categorical statement that some sort of accident could not have resulted in the asexual impregnation of the Virgin Mary.
There are many examples of parthenogenesis in other animals, why not in humans?
Junk science hocus-pocus. But if you are lucky, Donald Trump will read your comment and name you to head the National Council on Science and the Environment.
1
As a preacher’s kid, who grew up in the black southern baptist church and surrounding traditions, (age 67) hearing the words of Serene Jones would have caused our church folks to lose their minds! Jones was surely going to hell and I would not be allowed to be in her company; yet, these same folks loved me and nurtured my curiosity into later choosing to major in philosophy in college, to challenge my most fundamental beliefs about God, heaven and hell, and the veracity of the virgin birth. While I suspect that the women who patted their feet on wooden floors while the deacon’s prayed over communion may have had their own doubts about the whole Easter story, what they did believe and practiced was that I should love others as Christ loved me. From them, as well as my parents, I escaped with the power to love others and not hate and to forgive as I wish to be forgiven. Whether they would really send Serene Jones to hell on Easter, I doubt it; more likely they’d invite her in for fried chicken, green beans ham, hot rolls, and sweet tea.
163
@Nat Irvin
Nat, good to see your name here. I'd like to be invited to the same shindig. And I feel certain that Reverend Jones and I would have a wonderful time, given that we would be around good folks.
The people who influenced you to think your way through things read the scripture to "love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind" all the way to the end. They knew that no viable religion would expect you to remove your brain at the church door. And they knew that the true message for any reasoned faith would be love, not the spectacle of hatred masquerading as religion that we all too often see these days.
Best to you and yours. Norma
18
Nick's series is useful to survey the spectrums of metaphorical-literal, inclusive-exclusive among believers. I don't imagine though that he is agonizing over who includes him in their fellowship. The question of fellowship is important, but the prior question is do we have a hope that sustains us in life; and if so, to whom should we be thankful.
1
As an agnostic, I find Serene Jones' thoughts refreshing. That a god was created according to human specifications is in and by itself suspicious. Somebody said that heaven and hell are within us, and it's up to us to show who we are. We seek justice and peace in this world but realize how distant that is. Quite frankly, whether there is a god or not is not for us to say, we are just no smart enough to know.
106
@manfred marcus I was going to say the same thing. I like this Serene.
6
@Brian On the otherhand, Jesus is this mystery manifest so we can know there is a God. It is radical notion that God can inhabit our flesh (which is not dirty) and refreshing that God welcomes and loves unreservedly. We, our institutions, often mess it up. Jesus is more the real deal than even Serene, although I see her appeal given the brokenness and fear which at so much of our religious striving.
2
I found my beliefs explained here as never before I had. So maybe I am a Christian after all. Or maybe I am a Buddhist. I feel that the supernatural thing is that I am a human being with a conscience of my existence in this world, that my need to be good arises only from the fact that I need to love. "For me, living a life of love is driven by the simple fact that love is true."
It is good to see that after all I am not a bad person due to the fact that I don't believe in Christian mythology, as I was forced to think when I was growing up. If so called Christian families knew the damage they do to their children when they are inquisitive and doubtful of religious beliefs. The menace of hell lasts for a long time, until you understand that the physical hell is an imposible thing, just as is heaven. I only wish that if there is an afterlife I do not go to the place my mother described as heaven. Non edible fruits, made of precious stones, are not my favorite food, and a crystal sea is not a place in which I want to spend the longest vacation of my existence.
89
@CoquiCoqui
You do realize that Revelations is mostly metaphorical?
6
@CoquiCoqui, you probably are more Buddhist than you think. As most probably was Jesus. There is ample evidence that the missing years of Jesus' life were probably spent in the east learning the teachings of the Buddha. The Beatitudes are nothing if not Buddhist, as are many other teachings from Jesus.
That the Gospels and other books in the New Testaments were written a century or so after the death of Jesus should also cause us to wonder what was the motivation to ascribe to Jesus what he probably did not ascribe to himself.
What or who is God? Who knows, or can know? You can only believe when something is unknowable. But Buddhist teachings can help you live a live of love, as Serene Jones notes, which will make the present world a much better place. And you can throw off all those other strange trappings, of virgin birth and resurrection, myths invented a century or so later to help sell the story to a susceptible populace.
7
Show me a religion without resurrection; reincarnation; or some way around the surety of death, and I will show you a religion with very few adherents.
The need to believe in the supernatural is related to the survival instinct.
Humans are geared to act rationally in order to survive, but when in danger, or when they realize that their tiny moment of
existence is short and there is no way out, they dismiss logic and turn to magic.
A thousand religions use the myth of resurrection as their sales pitch.
1
Thank you for an enlightening article. This is why I like being a Unitarian Universalist. It’s a community that encourages a thoughtful search for a spirituality that makes personal sense, yet is always informed by basic principles such dignity, the worth of humans and justice.
Rev. Jones sounds like a lovely, warm, kind person, but I can't see how she is any sort of Christian when she denies or explains away all the main tenets of Christianity (resurrection, afterlife, etc.). Maybe as an atheist I'm missing something, but her approach sounds much more like a philosophy than a religion.
4
"I find the virgin birth a bizarre claim. It has nothing to do with Jesus’ message. The virgin birth only becomes important if you have a theology in which sexuality is considered sinful. It also promotes this notion that the pure, untouched female body is the best body, and that idea has led to centuries of oppressing women."
THat's just one reading. There are others that don't involve that at all. Other, more radical readings, take that claim as a point of radical union of God and humanity in a new creation where humanity is not merely restored to Original Goodness but Glorified through theosis. Of course, that kind of more radical reading tends to be ignored by people stuck in the conversation of, say, AD 1980.
The reduction of the Jesus Movement to an ethical school empties it of what's truly radical about it.
Again, a lot of religion-talking heads try to find their way out of the scandals of a narrative that doesn't fit our imagination about who God ought to be. And take it into conventionally woke-bourgeois virtue-signaling prattle. God is beyond that.
A long collapse of anything approaching creedal Christianity within a sector of mainline Protestantism is now in full flower at places like Union. A mash-up mixing secular politics, sociology ,feminism, identity politics, and social activism.
If the Professor were a lay leader I'd applaud. But as a clergywoman who rejects anything approaching the faith known to generations and embodied in the creeds, the prayers, the liturgy of millions it is nothing anyone can truly call even marginal traditional Christianity. Certainly not.
Jesus as a nice philosopher, teacher, psuedo-hippie dude. Love,love,love baby. Redemption and conversion? Are you kidding?The Trinity and Incarnation? Guess not. The sacrifice of Calvary? We can't have that, so medieval. The perfect faith for the readership here though.
So secular, so nonthreatening, so comfortable for non-Christians. The saddest part is that the non-Christians here will assume that the only choice is Rev. Jones or some scriptural literal preacher right out of the Scopes trial in the Bible Belt. A false choice belied by the millions in church tomorrow in places not fitting either polarity.
8
He has a beautiful faith, but in times of black holes and entanglement theory, physics itself suggests that something like physical resurrection is of course possible. With parallel universes, cats that are and are not, and more Dark Matter than anything we BEGIN to know, how are virgin birth and resurrection so beyond our ken? We don't know. We know with reflection that we can't know. We believe.
2
I find it funny that of all the miracles an all-powerful God is supposed to have done (including resurrecting the dead!), the one that people (men usually) focus their indignation on is the virgin birth...they seem to take it very personally...as if the basis of patriarchy, men's role in procreation, is being attacked.
If you accept the notion of an all-powerful God intervening in human affairs, why would this be any more impossible than anything else?
2
Are dreams real?
No, but they are a psychic reality to the receiver.
So are the resurrection and the virgin birth to the believer.
It's no use peeling an onion till it's gone.
2
I am not a Christian but I read Bible and I love Jesus and Mary. I have a picture of Black mother Mary on my shrine and every morning after bath, when I pray, I asked mother Mary to bless me and make me pure. Faith is the force that keeps the life anchored and prevent us to return to our animal tendencies - truth and faith are interchangeable. The liberal education and charm of science and technology spread the idea that faith in God is false, but faith in science is truth - the greatest con job of human history. All conclusions of science are based on special condition and probability and there is no absolute truth there, only thing it is empirical and objective. In case of God, it is not empirical, it is emotional and subjective. How a class of people, without any understanding of subjective knowledge, make judgement on God - it is bizarre. I hope father is right, there will again be revival of love of God in the worlds and we will come out of this environment hate and violence.
1
"I find the virgin birth a bizarre claim. It has nothing to do with Jesus’ message. The virgin birth only becomes important if you have a theology in which sexuality is considered sinful. It also promotes this notion that the pure, untouched female body is the best body, and that idea has led to centuries of oppressing women." THANK YOU for this, Dr. Jones. I couldn't agree more. I've always found the myth of the virgin birth deeply offensive, rooted in sexual shame and misogyny. It nearly drove me away from Christianity, but Jesus's love and wisdom brought me back.
2
As the writer Boris Akunin put it: "It doesn't matter if God exists; what are we, kids, to only behave when adults are watching?"
1
Do I recall correctly that the origination of the belief in the virgin birth of Jesus was a result of a mistranslation -- but an error that St. Augustine said was inspired by the Holy Spirit?
The real miracle of course is Jesus himself, the words he spoke and the life he lived. Once you fully grasp that, almost anything seems possible!
I believe both the resurrection and the virgin birth are meant to signify the absolutely sacred importance of Jesus, at once human and divine
Jesus is risen. He is alive in the world today. Christians clothe themselves in his righteousness, and serve as his eyes, hands, and heart.
2
Again, the principle this article articulates I call 'Man Can, God Can't'. There is no denying that Mankind can contrive the birth of a male child to a literal virgin on December the 25th if it is so chose. But God could not have done the same thing? Again, 'Man Can, God Can't'.
2
Wonderful article and a lovely message on Easter Sunday. Thank you.
I have a very firm grounding in the concept that I should treat others as I would like to be treated. I also understand that my fellow humans are not perfect and sometimes I need a little patience. Finally - and this is where the Bible hits a Home Run - I know we are all "sinners". Despite my best intentions I suffer from bad temper, greed, impatience and sadly occasional vindictiveness. These are evil - not in the Christian sense, but in the humanitarian reality.
I don't need an organized religion in order to understand what would be the ideal and to encourage me to get as close as possible. Like all humans I will fail to achieve the target, but maybe I can get a little closer tomorrow.
2
"I don’t worship an all-powerful, all-controlling omnipotent, omniscient being....The God of Easter is vulnerable and is connected to the world in profound ways that don’t involve manipulating the world but constantly inviting us into love, justice, mercy."
It sounds like Reverend Jones bases her beliefs about what God is like on what she wishes him to be like.
But isn't it one thing to say that it would be great if there were an all-loving, omniscient, omnipotent being, and another to say that such a being really exists? Isn't this wishful thinking?
1
Thank you so much for reminding people everywhere that Jesus didn’t die for our sins but lived to show us God’s love. If people really understood the true meaning of Easter and that God didn’t need a plan B there would be less hostility towards Christians and among Christians.
Of the New Testament writers, Paul and Mark seem to have lived nearest to the historical Jesus, yet neither mentions the virgin birth. This suggests the oral tradition did not exist yet, or neither writer found it credible. And Jesus had a brother, James, remember?
If the Blessed Mother was unwed or widowed young, it only makes her story more miraculous.
Christians always revert to "it's a mystery" when they can't explain "God's" motivations. How about just saying "it's a mystery" and leaving God out of the inability to explain? "God" is really an unnecessary additional step that causes more harm than good.
1
Thank you for this thoughtful flirtation with Faith and not knowing. A terrific way to start Easter. The Virgin birth following a visit from the Arch Angel...... Hmmmmm, Nonsense.
This was the Bronze Age, a more primitive man was trying to express ideals and explanations for existence.
This modern man will enjoy a wonderful holiday with family and friends and the memories of those we have loved and lost. It’s not Faith but it is a game plan for the day.
Thanks Again
Having watched 'The Burial of Kojo', where the Crow Man and the Sacred Bird are linked in this mysterious existence of ours, I found a message from a Christian friend following an earlier one from her spouse, with wishes for a Happy Easter.
Tomorrow Sunday, I will answer; 'Tomorrow', as their young grand-daughter sang before she was taken away from them and is now a star in the heavenly skies.
Iris Murdoch, a philosopher turned novelist, wrote that she did not believe in a 'personal' God, and toward the end of her life, she emphasized her belief in Goodness laced with magic.
What is bizarre is the amount of hatred to be seen in the times we are living. The Bible, in its Old Testament, describes the Brutal Love of God, and the New Testament explains the Compassion of Christ.
Tomorrow, an Easter greeting will be forwarded to some Catholic friends in France, where from the rubble of Notre Dame's Cathedral, a nail and a piece of the Crucifix have been found.
The Power of Faith is extraordinary.
A lynching is an extrajudicial murder, pure and simple, by a mob.
But the Crucifixion was painstakingly legal. Some versions of the story even make it consensual, recognizing that God's plan for everlasting life would be absurd if Jesus did not offer himself up willingly.
To conflate the two demeans the latter or elevates the former.
4
I've always had trouble with the "What decent parent wouldn't volunteer to suffer in their child's place" argument. I am Catholic, and the idea that a loving God sent his child in to do his dirty work for him never made sense to me. But in reading more about the Trinity, I realized that Catholics don't believe Jesus was the literal son of God, we believe that he *is* God. "Son of God" is the metaphor, not the crucifixion--or the resurrection. At least that's what I choose to believe. Whatever your beliefs, fellow NYT readers, I wish you joy on this day!
1
This is the most astonishing interview I can ever remember in the NYT.
I would have thought "heresy" would be no more brazen than this, but it comes from a woman of God, speaking within the structure of a church.
When people ask me if I believe in "God" I usually dispense with that annoying, personal question with, "Not in YOUR God." By which I mean most people believe in God to get something for themselves out of it, to have their prayers answered.
How many people would pray or "believe in God" if they got nothing in return?
(Just look at TV every day, at all those "prosperity churches." God is all about the pay off.)
But here is a serene woman saying, nope, the reward, if there is one, is simply in the blessing of earthly love.
Hate, as James Baldwin observed, damages the hater, and conversely, love benefits those who love.
I don't know when they'll be coming with pitchforks for Serene, but it's nice to see she had her say.
1
And the main line Protestant churches wonder why nobody goes to church? Dr. Jones essentially has the theology of the Beatles. love, love, love.....
4
Paster Jones, Paster Jones - she got a thing goin' on:
The Passion? " "The pervasive idea of an abusive God-father who sends his own kid to the cross so God could forgive people is nuts"
Resurrection? - "When you look in the Gospels, the stories are all over the place. There’s no resurrection story in Mark, just an empty tomb. Those who claim to know whether or not it happened are kidding themselves."
Virgin Birth? "I find the virgin birth a bizarre claim."
Life after death? - "I don't know"
Faith? At the heart of faith is mystery. God is beyond our knowing, not a being or an essence or an object. But I don’t worship an all-powerful, all-controlling omnipotent, omniscient being."
This isn't a reformation. It reads more like a shibboleth calling for the end of Christianity as we knew it.
And Paster Jones, that may not be such a bad thing.
This is very strange conversation. A Christian minister who doesn’t believe on her own religion basics. If you create your own parallel understanding it still doesn’t make it right. If you don’t believe in Virgin Mary, God’s omnipresence, afterlife, trinity than you cannot define yourself as Christian minister. You can try to justify it philosophically but it still makes little sense. As a Christian minister you cannot just cherry pick what you would like to believe or how to live your life, just because you feel like it. If you don’t believe in the message or don’t want to follow the messanger than you always have a choice to move to something else.
4
I am speaking as an atheist, but I am always interested in getting the details right ….
"Crucifixion is not something that God is orchestrating from upstairs."
This confuses me. I thought the whole idea was that God DID orchestrate it - that he died on purpose to save us? Took on our sins and suffering to save us? For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son ??
Personally I've always thought Jesus's teachings made good sense. If one can follow his teachings without needing any of the mystery blah-blah, then exactly what is the point of the mystery blah-blah?
If Christians, and most everyone else, would try to live as Jesus taught, clearly the world would be a far better place. It seems like the rest is at best a distraction or an excuse to pontificate and act holy.
2
I'll see you in Heaven, Rev. Jones, but I can't go far with you on earth. Christianity rests on a central narrative (or mythos) and insists that it is historically true. It includes a lot of counterintuitive stuff about incarnation, atonement for sin, resurrection, and (if you want to go even further out) virgin birth and ascenscion. Some Christian thinkers, from St. Paul on, like to rub people's noses this over-the-top quality. Once you accept the idea that God can do things any way He wants and is under no obligation to conform to human expectations, the narrative makes sense, and it even becomes rich and meaningful. Rejecting the narrative leaves you, Rev. Jones, with some vapid bromides about love. That's all been said, and it doesn't really say much. Happy Easter; I'll even go so far as to say, "The Lord is risen."
2
I don't understand how you can say 'God is beyond our knowing' and follow that up with 'God is connected to the world in profound ways'. If it is beyond our knowing, stop right there. Do not make any other claim about what is beyond our knowing.
2
ARGH. Mary gave birth without pain.... (she experienced the pangs of childbirth later during the Crucifixion)... Come on guys -- Christianity is a MYSTERY religion -- with rituals (who thunk up Transubstantiation and made it a doctrine?? Is Virgin birth -- which does occur in some species -- also doctrine? I don't know.)
I remain mystified by people's reactions to and pursuit of religion /"faith". I adore the rituals (not so much this Maundy Thursday when I washed someone else's feet), the buildings and their sculpture have been my life's research -- but I am no nearer belief than I was. Of all religions, I think mainstream Protestant Christianity is best! - community, acceptance, comfort, ETHICS, MORALS. I don't care so much as if you believe as that you behave as if you believe. The Ten Commandments are a start, Mathew, Mark etc. offer refinements. (And I am in favor of a woman's right to choose.)
Read and study The Urantia Book, the most important and most authentic book on the subject that I have ever read. The Bible is abridged and distorted.
1
What a breath of fresh air. Rev. Jones’ interpretations of Christian theology almost makes me want to go back to church. Like many others in this forum, I was raised in a very religious household—my father is a Presbyterian minister—but imbued with quite progressive views of the world and its inhabitants. Perhaps that’s the result, in large measure, of the fact that my father studied under Karl Bart at the University of Basel (his Ph.D. Dissertation is on Bart’s theology). Bart was a contemporary and colleague of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a pastor, teacher, and theologian who made the ultimate sacrifice standing up to the Third Reich for his beliefs.
Consider this: On Sunday mornings, the pews of German Christian churches were filled with Nazi officers, SS guards, and concentration-camp doctors. Bonhoeffer and Bart were both notable for their resistance against Hitler’s regime: They walked the walk, in spite of the consequences. For better or for worse, I think we’re approaching another Bonhoeffer moment today. Obsessing about wether Mary was a virgin or not, or whether Jesus was actually resurrected from the dead, is a distraction from what really matters—and that’s all that matters.
1
It's nice to read about a religious scholar whose faith doesn't lead her to bomb churches, as some Sri Lankans' faith led them to do yesterday, or to bomb Shia neighborhoods, as some Pakistani Sunnis' faith led them to do a week ago.
But why doesn't she just move on? Philosophy long ago provided explanations for the eternal questions superior to those supplied by religion, and science now provides explanations superior to those supplied by philosophy.
Paddling a canoe can be enjoyable, but if you need to get somewhere you're better off with at least a sail if not a motor.
If only Christianity as practiced remotely resembled what Jesus seemed most concerned about! Why didn't Jesus write anything to be left for his followers? The biblical accounts indicate he was literate and could argue theology at the temple. Maniacal Saul of Tarsus came along and borrowed all kinds of ideas and concepts from the prevailing religions and philosophies of the time as well as ancient ones. We really have "Paulianity," not Christianity. The religion has become very complex--mostly to cover the irrational and unbelievable aspects--and that led to vulnerability to politics and power. It has happened to the other religions as well. Just in the last 12 hours, bombings of Christians in Sri Lanka by "radical Buddhists" is suspected! I don't think fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians can explain why Jesus left no writings of his own, given that those groups obsess about the Literal and Inerrant truth of the writings in the Bible. No, the "gospels" are not actual, factual reports written by literate people within weeks of the crucifixion: they appeared 30--90 years after Jesus life, and even with printing and video technology today, accounts that old would be highly skewed and fictionalized. We are constantly seeing revised, reinterpreted accounts of events in the 20th century. So it is the nature of religion to be legends, myth, and lore. Wringing any true direction and comfort from this material is getting more and more difficult.
82
@Gary Pippenger Happy Easter Gary. Becoming a Christian and professing one's belief in Christ obviously doesn't make a person instantly Christlike. Since the original sin of Adam and Eve, mankind has been born with a sin nature that cannot be overcome on our own. After professing our faith in Christ, Christians seek to grow in their faith and become more and more Christlike. It's a process. Furthermore, the actions of some Christians should not be used to taint the whole.
Whether the Bible is to be taken literally in every instance is a question that no one can answer. What I do believe, however, is that the Bible contains the writings of people who were inspired by God to write their accounts and is to be our guidebook for life.
I would encourage you to honestly explore the Christian faith. I believe you would be surprised by what you find.
2
@Gary Pippenger Jesus is the WORD of God - his life is the truth, which mere words could not contain nor truly represent. The bible is truth about the TRUTH. We should be cautious with how we deal with what is written. If there was humility and focus on Christ, we may indeed have avioided much pain from fundamentlism and absolutism according to us.
1
„If only Christianity as practiced remotely ... “ - isn’t it the best way to practice a religion with concepts such as the three flavors of divinity and a taste for torture?
As an immigrant, an American of Muslim faith and an Interfaith activist, I have been reading many articles during this Easter / Passover week. As a physician and a man of science, I do believe in a much higher power that has created this immense universe. Immaculate conception is not a challenge for that power (God or whatever name we give) who created the universe from nothing. Similarly, death and resurrection are not difficult for the Divine. As a Muslim, I belive in Prophet Isa (Jesus) and his message of love, care and respect of others. I agree with Rev. Jones that we must not act only to please God), but being good to our fellow human beings is a reward in itself. Prayers are for self reflection and self improvement. God is too big to be waiting for my few words of praise for him.
132
@Khalid Rehman Beautifully said, Khalid. You have eloquently linked the three monotheistic religions. At each core, it is all about our living lives of love, compassion, and recognizing that we are connected and equal as human beings. Let us also join with other spiritual ideologies, for example Buddhism, which also show us the Way and that it is not about us. Rather it is about our neighbor, whose skin color, ethnicity, gender, and personal spiritual beliefs may differ outwardly yet are one within.
20
@Khalid Rehman -- Yes, immaculate conception and resurrection are not difficult for the Divine. But they are not necessary. You can have a religion that emphasizes love, care, and respect without committing itself one way or another on the reported miracles. Or you can have a philosophy or moral code that does the same, and doesn't call itself a religion.
Not trying to be argumentative -- just wanted to add a comment to your comment with which I basically agree.
15
@Khalid Rehman Thank-you, I agree. I am drawn to the disclosure of a God that our flesh is holy by mere virtue that God dwells therein - and in us. The notion that the body is dirty is not Christian. Jesus showed and lived intimacy with those whom he knew and they reciprocated (John and Mary Magdalene).
Jesus shows us a universality for all when he cleanses the temple declaring that my house shall be a house of prayer for all nations. He constantly seeks and welcomes the outsider - who are deemed to be unworthy, immoral, unclean - and what's more, they are comfortable to come to him. Is this how we feel toward our religious institutions today?
I'm like the centurion at the crucifixion who declares of Jesus ... "truly this was the son of God". More Jesus please.
7
The immaculate conception and virgin birth are metaphors. They signify the opening of the human heart.
Christ died to his human self and was resurrected in spirit, to a new ideal of compassion, love and unity.
It a metaphor, and the ideal of Christians.
We just don't know what happened. Scientifically it could not have happened that way. In addition, the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas unearthed in 1945 says Jesus ate a piece of fish, and walked through a wall. If at all, perhaps his body was not there as we conceive it. Then there was the road to Emmaus incident. They did not recognize the risen Jesus, he broke bread with them, they recognized him, and he disappeared. It was almost as if the faithful were projecting the "Twilight Zone" onto the image of Jesus.
But we know basically what Jesus said. The point is to die to your ego, and to be reborn with love and compassion as much as possible. Being born again does not mean declaiming about the life of Jesus, and your personal relationship with a being who has as much empirical proof as the Easter Bunny.
Belief in supernatural feats is not necessary. Making God visible by living as Jesus is louder than words. Talk is cheap. Christian compassion on a quotidian basis is difficult for all of us flawed humans.
78
@Wordsworth from Wadsworth
Thank you for your reasonable thoughts
4
@Wordsworth from Wadsworth -- If someone expressed such "heresy" in earlier times he or she would have been burned at the stake. Or worse. I guess we can call this 21st-century discussion progress but we still haven't established how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle.
6
@Wordsworth from Wadsworth Buddhism is 500 years older than Christianity, which expresses identical concepts. I know you want to own the truth - but you can not if you do not study science and nature, where truth exists. That includes history - which is a science if done properly. No myths are necessary.
9
I am surprised that so many comments here seem to confuse theology and religion . Theology is the study of religions and has become, quite fortunately, a secular discipline which allows believers and non believers alike to investigate all the creeds, myths and symbols that are the foundation of faith - the basis for all religions . As I read this article, it seems to me that what Reverend Jones is saying is that you can be a Christian and question some of the tenets of Christianity (particularly Catholicism) many of which were developed a century or more after the death of the historical Jesus and his apostle .
Having faith does not prohibit critical thought . "Blind" faith leads to stupidity or blatant hypocrisy . I will always remember Senator Marco Rubio who, upon being asked if he believed that Earth was really created 4500 years ago, felt compelled to appease his constituents by answering "I don't know, I am not a scientist" .
Conversely, I had a philosophy professor who happened to be a Jesuit priest specializing in Existentialism . He taught us about Sartre and Kirkegaard and never failed to extend to both the same respect .
68
@pgd I love the : " particularly catholicism " !
3
Conservative evangelicals and liberal theologians such as Serene Jones have one thing in common. They both reduce God to a manageable human who conforms to the expectations of our own little world view. The evangelical God is often vain, cruel and unjust like many of our own leaders; our President for example. Jones' God is a vulnerable, rather ineffectual God who wrings His (Her) hands over evil and, like us, hopes for the best. Any God worthy of our faith will be above our petty expectations. Science offers insights into nature, but this insight reinforces, rather than dimishes, our sense of the magnitude of God's creation. Miracles are not an impediment to modern faith; they are a prerequisite. The resurrection is no stumbling block but a launching pad to the understanding of our relationship to God and reality.
80
@Julie,
I don't know about your god, but my god has a sense of humor. My god is playing hide-and-seek with the entire universe, and laughing all the way.
Life is not a task, or a test, or a punishment. It's a gift, and all it asks of me is to accept it. And to embrace it.
14
@Duane McPherson I'd only add that "the rules" are also very simple and universal to nearly every religion ever - be kind to your fellow humans.
This whole piece begs the question ( for christians) : if you abandon virgin birth, heaven, hell, resurrection, an omnipotent "loving" god, why bother with all the mental/linguistic/philosophical gymnastics?
As simple as possible, no simpler!
5
@Julie I see nothing in what Jones says that reduces God to a manageable human.
13
I certainly respect Mr. Kristof's inquiring mind as expressed in these thoughtful conversations. And clearly Professor Jones is a voice that ought to be heard. However, her overall conception is so far from the mainstream of Christianity (both historical and contemporary) as to be unrecognizable for many of us. And she pretty much dismisses orthodox Christians as credulous simpletons. Phrases like "I'm absolutely certain" and "that is a fabrication" suggest a mind not quite as open to mystery as she wishes to believe.
Therefore, I would
2
Religion, like philosophy, should be allowed to adapt to our changing understanding of the world. Just as Stoicism offers a lot but shouldn't require us to accept Chrysippus's metaphysics, religion should be allowed to evolve. The virgin birth isn't something we should be hang our hats on. Sure, the hint that sex is dirty is there if someone wants to play it up, but that's probably not what Matthew was going for. In myth-world, a great person needs a great lineage. That's why Herakles' father is Zeus and divine ancestry comes to be attributed to many historical Greeks. The virgin birth story
exists because the Septuagint's use of the word parthenos offered Mathew to opportunity to introduce that story; and, as divine parentage goes, for obvious reasons, Zeus wasn't an option.
39
Terrific interview! I vacillated between atheism and agnosticism for 40 years. It's easy to dismiss ignorance, but when I became friends with Christians who were rational and thoughtful, all I could say is, "I have not had your experience."
But I did end up having experiences I could not rationally explain. In an effort to understand, I read the Bible. But I also read histories and ancient texts. I already had a solid background in philosophy and classics.
I think it would be helpful to distinguish between the Early Church and what the Romans did to recast that faith in ways that embedded their own social biases into it. The Nicene Creed, for example, was the work of some bishops who heeded the call of Emperor Constantine to determine the ontological status of Jesus (2/3 of the bishops declined the all-expenses-paid trip because they knew what Constantine was up to). Examples abound of committee meetings that determined doctrine under duress.
But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I do believe in some of the miracles (though not a Virgin Birth). Consider the Resurrection story for a minute. If it was a hoax, why was the empty tomb discovered by women; wouldn't men have had more credibility? And why was Jesus at first not recognized and thought to be a caretaker, gardener? Hadn't he spoken of a "new body"? And why Thomas' skepticism? (To my mind, he got a bad rap.) If a hoax, not a very organized one!
Enjoy your Easter. Honor the joy of the Early Church.
2
Thanks Rev. Jones. I am not Christian, but all I can say after reading your cogent responses is - May your tribe increase, And, may we have such leaders in all religions who oppose dogma.
8
These are some of the most thoughtful answers to one of life’s ultimate questions: Who (or what) is God? As one who wandered from church to church seeking the Answer, I kept coming back to the fact that Jesus was an incredible man and prophet, but was he he truly divine? The impossibility of a true virgin birth, the magical nature of some purported miracles ending with a dead person coming back to life in a ghostly form, strained credulity. Yet, if I refused to blindly believe these obviously human-conceived fantasies, I could not possibly be a Christian. Yet, I found the words and deeds of Jesus compelling enough to want to follow his teachings (not those of people who interpreted his words years or gene centuries later).
To read a Christian minister actually state that the Bible is not the literal word of God gives me faith that I have been in the right track for the past 50 years This the most refreshing take on Christianity I have come across in years. Maybe in day intelligence can prevail over ancient superstition and manipulation. I only wish I could find a church to attend led by a minister with the intelligence and courage to question traditional dogma and who encouraged congregants to do the same.
6
Breathe in, breathe out. Be aware of each breath - every single one of 'em - as a means of Being in this magical, mysterious, miraculous gift of Life. If we're not conscious of each breath, we're not conscious.
It's that simple, and it's the greatest challenge/opportunity we face as Spiritual Beings having a human existence.
Everything else is dogma…
2
I have a problem with the answer to the first question where Rev. Jones says "the crucifixion is a first century lynching". This perpetuates the notion throughout the New Testament that the Jews got together and killed Jesus. This idea has led to the persecution of Jews for ages. It was put into the New Testament as a political message - as a way of setting Christians apart from the Jewish origin of Christianity. The Romans crucified Jesus so it was an official act, not a lynching. It may have been with the cooperation of a small but influential segment of the Jewish population. But it was certainly not by the Jewish community en masse as portrayed in the New Testament, of which the disciples were a part.
8
@Horace That's a bit of an oversimplification - although you're correct that "lynching" is a bad analogy.
If we're to believe that Pilate literally 'washed his hands' of responsibility, the crucifixion was carried out by the Romans at the request of the Pharisees. The latter did not by any means speak for all of the Jews, a subtlety lost on (or ignored by) those who want to gin up anti-semitic sentiment.
3
@Horace--I've never understood the whole "the Jews killed Jesus" thing. I don't know where that came from. As you state, the Romans killed Jesus. The Jews had nothing to do with it. Anyway, Jesus was a Jew. It's his followers who are known as "Christians," because they called him "Christ," which means "anointed." Jesus never refers to himself that way.
Organized religion brings people together in a common community. Unfortunately it then aggressively turns on those who do not adhere to their belief. Organized religions and other organizations are too often the source of hate and a need to dominate. People fear the unknown and create "answers" for miracles and magic which are simply words used as placeholders until we advance enough to understand what happened. Each person should choose that which helps them through the day, but along with that we need a common touchstone. For too many God is a weapon. I suggest we simply consider if our actions were based on kindness. This one word, universally acknowledged as that needed touchstone may bring us together. I've decided to believe in the concept of the force. I belief this because I want to and that's all the reason I need. On this Easter Sunday make it a full day of kindness in your every interaction.
7
Mr Kristof, thank you for your thoughtful articles.
As a matter of interest, do you do fact-checking for these articles? If so, you missed the fact that Ms Jones incorrectly stated that Mark’s gospel has no resurrection. On the contrary, there is a statement that Jesus “was crucified [but] is risen” (Mark 16:6). This means that all gospels do indeed assert that Jesus was raised from the dead.
Ms Jones seems to be a pleasant humanist, but seems to pick and choose what she wants from Jesus’ teachings. Jesus spoke more about judgment than about love. If you haven’t already done so, then I strongly recommend reading one or all of the gospels. His is a perfectly authentic Jewish voice of his time.
Related to your question, she would not be described as a Christian by any standard traditional definition or by the founding documents of any of the main denominations. She is free to redefine the term for herself, but it could be confusing for others.
3
@Andrew Actually, what she said is that there is no "resurrection story" in Mark. Not quite the same thing. But you point is not wholly without merit.
@Andrew
Thank you for setting Ms. Jones straight on the matter of the Gospel of Mark. She is "a pleasant humanist" who blandly guts the gospels.
2
@PaulThe oldest known version of Mark ends up at an empty tomb.Later Christian versions added an ending similar to Matthew and Luke.
Mark was written in about 70 AD Luke and Matthew in 90 to 100 AD.
No writing preceding Mark cover the subject.
Rev. Serene Jones: "The virgin birth only becomes important if you have a theology in which sexuality is considered sinful."
Exactly right, and the scholarly consensus is that the culture of Jesus' family and community harshly stigmatized children born out of wedlock. Furthermore, there is no mention of virgin birth in the Gospel according to Mark, the earliest of the synoptic gospels. This was either a shocking and unfathomable omission of a signal event, according to later Christian theology, or an indication that its appearance and elaborations in later synoptics were insertions reflective of continuing bias against 'illegitimate' children.
8
@nimitta
I don't think that Matthew's interest lies there. Sure, the virgin birth can support the idea of sexuality as sinful, but more importantly, mythology demands that great heroes have great lineage. Antiquity has no interest in the Joseph Campbell type hero rising from obscurity to greatness. If one doesn't have an impressive lineage, it's necessary to create one. The Septuagint presented an easy opportunity by describing a child born to a parthenos (a word that can, but doesn't have to be translated as "virgin").
No surprise that Mark doesn't mention the virgin birth (or birth in general), seems like it's only later that people began to take an interest in the early life of Jesus.
"God is beyond our knowing, not a being or an essence or an object." This seems to pretty much define god as non-existent. The Reverend seems to effectively discard other core tenets of the christian faith. He sounds a little like he is drifting into secular humanism.
Perhaps the watershed moment the Reverend speaks of is the realization finally that we ourselves are the source of our own salvation.
5
@Bill um, the he is a she. I am grateful to the Reverend for HER forceful statement on gender oppression. She is the first woman to head Union Theological Seminary in its 180 year history.
Bill, Sorry, You got it wrong....The Reverend Doctor Jones is a woman !
How is saying God is unknowable the same as saying God doesn't exist?
It seems to me that the genius of Religion lies not in the actual words themselves but rather in the way that its particular leadership may choose to interpret them. They can choose to take the words at face value or they can choose to discover a deeper and more sophisticated meaning to the text other than what might be evident from a first reading. It is the CHOICE that it is the key. Over the years some religions have chosen to interpret their texts in ways which command Behaviors that are grounded in sound psychological soil and which therefore, produce positive outcomes: the sort of outcomes that lead to a sense of peace and self-fulfillment along with a loving respect for all the creatures of the earth.
To the extent that this yearning for a deeper interpretation is sacrificed on the alter of expediency is the extent to which a religion's adherents doom themselves to the fate of a failed society.
6
I once wished Timothy, my super, a happy holiday. He said in no uncertain terms he didn't celebrate holidays and that he was both a socialist and atheist. It was good to know and made me feel closer to him. He also told me that his best freind since childhood was a Catholic priest. Sunday, after doing all his priestly duties, his friend would come back to Timothy's apartment for Sunday dinner.
At one point Timothy became terminally ill. The last few days his friend stayed with him constantly. He was cremated after his death. His wish was that his ashes would be scattered in the Hudson River. Even though it was illegal to do so the priest and another friend sneaked onto a pier in the middle of the night and scattered his ashes.
A while later I visited the priest to speak to him about Timothy. He told me of their conversations and arguments about life and death and the hereafter. He said that every time he drives by that pier the thought that always comes to him is, "Timothy, you know better than I which one of us was right."
14
This is by far, one of the most important interviews ever conducted.
So honest, so logically sound, so pure, so cogent. Incredible!
18
Mr. Kristof
Interesting question and response:
"For someone like myself who is drawn to Jesus’ teaching but doesn’t believe in the virgin birth or the physical resurrection, what am I? Am I a Christian?
Well, you sound an awful lot like me, and I’m a Christian minister."
Let me rephrase the question:
For someone like me who tries to follow the basic "good behavior" as described by Jesus, yet doesn't accept the virgin birth or resurrection, why would I consider myself a Christian? Do not many other religions and secular philosophies similarly promote personal responsibility and ethical behavior?
And to rephrase of the answer:
You sound an awful lot like me and I am a Christian/Jew/Buddhist/Muslim/agnostic/atheist/etc. Don't get distracted the label or the superficial trappings.
31
Wonderful article, I have saved it as I want to read it more than once to get as much out of it as possible. What really grabbed me was the part about the crucifixion being and enactment of human hatred. Never were truer words written, and that enactment of hatred still goes on today. We all need to remember that the Bible was written for a society different from ours, in a time very distant from ours. Depending on which translation you read there may have been editorial/translator license taken that is not what the writers of the books and letters actually intended. I took New Testament Greek and found that out the first day. All of the supposed "righteous" people who beat other folks up about what the Bible and Gospels tell us should take a course in NTG, otherwise we are condemned to relive the enactments of hatred over and over again. Again, a wonderful piece, would love to meet Rev. Jones.
8
@linda: Which translation can you recommend to avoid the license in translation that you mention as being present in some? I would recommend NIV and ESV. On most points I find the major translations to have essentially the same meaning (particularly in the Greek).
In the end, religion should provide a means to encourage community, compassion, and courage to all, regardless of others race, gender, religion, sexual identity, etc. If it can't do that, it really has little worth.
18
@BMD: But then you are locating the goodness of religion in the social function that it serves, not in its intrinsic nature. We could say just as well that the value of sports lies in its contributions to community and character. Religion purports to state the truth about a certain spiritual realm. You seem to be implying that it doesn't matter whether it's true, so long as it accomplishes its social purpose.
But is that conception of the value of religion something that could be coherently adopted by somebody who subscribes to it? Could somebody coherently say: This is what I believe, and it doesn't matter whether it's true, so long as it promotes community, compassion, and courage?
1
"But without a physical resurrection"
BODILY resurrection. There's a difference. Scripture calls it a "spiritual body," which sounds like an oxymoron, and distinguishes it from the "natural body." 1 Cor 15:44: "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
"What if tomorrow someone found the body of Jesus still in the tomb? Would that then mean that Christianity was a lie? No, faith is stronger than that."
No, sir, that is exactly what that would mean. It would mean that Christianity is a lie. But it is not a lie, because he is risen indeed, alleluia.
By the way, the Virgin Birth IS a bizarre claim. So is the claim that God was nailed to a stick. Christianity is full of bizarre claims. That doesn't mean they aren't true. It means we've entered a place where ALL of our preconceptions just don't matter. Our assumptions have been turned on their heads. Because we've entered the very heart of God.
There are times in all of our lives when each of us -- no matter what our background or belief or non-belief systems -- are granted glimpses of something that lies beyond reason, something that might be supernatural or divine.
We can either shrug it off and ignore it or pause and explore it.
Like every crossroads in our life's journey that we walk alone within the confines of our own skin, we can make a choice.
It is erroneous, however, in my opinion, to view negatively the choices made by others at their crossroads, or to criticize them for verbalizing their sincerely held belief or disbelief.
Faith and doubt are partners. One cannot exist without the other any more than men cannot exist without women, or vice-versa.
5
@Didier
"Faith and doubt are partners" is what priests tell their parishioners to keep them in the fold when they are having legitimate doubts about religious claims.
Your men/women analogy is not a good one, because many couples split up over confirmed doubts about fidelity - and many people leave religion when their doubts overcome their beliefs.
3
@Linda L Men, as a species, cannot exist without women, as a species, and vice-versa. If one cannot grasp that prospect, there's little more that can be said.
And, genuine doubt is no excuse for surrendering oneself to any earthly authority, including a priest.
2
One of THE best articles on religion I have ever read. Thank you for this interview, and for publishing it.
50
Regardless of whether one is a believer in religion or not, what's healthy for all of us is having the freedom to question our own beliefs and hopefully respect the beliefs of others.
Happy Easter, Mr. Kristof, and thanks for sharing your provocative
thoughts.
17
Thank you for this article! To me the virgin birth and resurrection are calls to faith - yes, virtually impossible to rationally accept but faith and love are not necessarily based on rational thinking... Faith begets hope and makes great actions possible, and I know of no greater template for living ethically and morally - caring for one another,standing up to injustice, loving activism, sacrifice for the sake of others - "the triumph of love in the midst of suffering."
8
I am happy, this Easter morning, to read this article and these comments and find that I am not alone in the effort to reconcile the faith I learn from the Bible with the faith I live today loving God and my neighbour. I cannot and will not simply dismiss the miracles we read about in the Bible. I have been writing about this in my blog at integrate-to-infinity.com. The next chapter in my blog will include what we have learned from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi library. At the very least, the reading of these lost books should tell us that there is more to the story of our faith than what we find in the Bible.
3
Now, this actually sounds like the kind of Christianity I was raised with ... with a focus on the kind of things Jesus actually worried about and spoke about - loving and helping and caring - rather than on the invented fixations of 2000 years of popes and politiicans and others with personal agendas.
I am so so so sick of people trying to oppress others supposedly in the name of Christianity, which unfortunately is the context in which Christianity most often appears these days.
30
No matter what conversation you have with a Christian they'll always circle back to their last line of defense: the lord works in mysterious ways, we are unable to understand God, etc. Funny that we're all born with the ability to reason. Reason is how we find truth and truth is the most important element of our existence. Truth renders order from chaos. It alone, without the help of any supreme beings, brought us advancements like modern medicine, education, automobiles, etc. Truth tells us that religion is man-made, but most of us chose to believe in something that doesn't exist, because, I suppose, what's the point in not believing in heaven and eternal life. I get that. Just don't try to make me believe that Donald Trump is a Christian. I'll go eat some chocolate eggs now and at Christmas I'll put up a tree and lights outside. These are wonderful American holidays for me.
16
What a wonderful religious leader. But he missed one critical point about the celebration of Easter:
"Something was struggling to be born on that first Easter. It burst forth in ways that changed the world forever."
It is called Spring -- when each year the northern hemisphere is literally reborn.
That is what we celebrate, just as we bring in the lights and greenery to celebrate the end of the year and the lengthening of the days at Christmas and Hanukkah.
To ignore these very human traditions is to miss the entire point of the stories of rebirth and resurrection.
9
@avrds
The Catholics and Christians were Roman empire peasant illiterates and slaves. They were wholly intellectually deficient, in turn stealing pagan customs - often after violent sprees of rape and murder. Thus, their religion was predicted on moral degeneracy, as well. One of those pagan thefts was of Ostara, the spring equinox, also the goddess of spring, Eostre.
@avrds. She! It's she!!! The religious leader is a woman!
@Deckla
Yes, thanks! I saw that later. No wonder she sees and understands more than traditional male church leaders.
And to Maggie:
We celebrate the Eostre bunny at our house every spring.
1
This lapsed Catholic really needed to hear this. I have been struggling with my faith...big time, but what is said here falls right into what I really believe. Love, forgiveness, courage, sacrifice, and living those things in the here and now. The lesson is the thing, the premise, the purpose. Great article.
38
As long as we're debunking "bizarre" claims, this expert on Christianity needs to learn the first thing about Greek mythology. It is the opposite of belief in an omnipotent, all-controlling deity. As any reader of The Iliad and Aeschylus knows, the Greek deities were explicitly NOT all-powerful; they represented multiple conflicting yet also cooperating forces evolved from material natural powers (sun, moon, ocean) to more conscious powers (Truth, Wisdom, Erotic Love), with Zeus/Power and Justice the imperfect arbiter of them all, wrangling their conflicting claims. Humans can discover a place for themselves in this universe that has some degree of justice, but essentially their place is tragic--they are an afterthought, not the crown of creation. Far closer to contemporary science and philosophy than the bizarre contradiction of a deity supposedly omniscient and omnipotent yet dishing out frightful doses of random unmerited suffering. It was Greek PHILOSOPHERS insisting on some completely coherent, rationally-understandable "logos" NOT identifiable with traditional mythology/the Olympic pantheon who contributed to the perversion that was institutional Christianity.
16
I was born and raised in a "Bi-Religious" home.
My mother, a Roman Catholic, and my dad; Jewish.
We celebrated Holiday's from both with equal vigor, however, my initial "training" was by means of the Catholic Church.
I went to a secular public school in the suburbs and each and every Wednesday, we were busted to the local Catholic School for religious instruction after regular school hours.
Somewhere between my 1st Communion and Confirmation, I had far too many questions each week about doctrine which would result in the nun administering our class to say; "You're going to have to talk to the father".
It was the weekly case, that the priest on duty would make the rounds from classroom to classroom.
He would address questions which may have been a little too tricky for the nuns.
With my background, I was quite the "regular" with special questions for the father.
When the question of "who" could go to heaven was the subject, the nuns made it clear -
"No Baptism - No Entry" !
I became paralyzed with the thought of my dad being eternally confined to Limbo !
The priest did have a suggestion however;
"Your dad could be Baptized" !
I thought about this - I thought of all the people on my father's side during Jewish celebrations -
Even at 10 years old, I found the notion of all of them being denied "Heaven" absolutely ridiculous.
For me, "I did pay attention to the man behind the curtain" !
No - "No Virgin Birth" !
20
@Leonard Dornbush
And that is why there is baptism for the dead.
@Leonard Dornbush
Miracles and mythical entities in the sky aside, there are tremendous social values and order brought to us through the religions of the world.
After studying world religions for more than 6 decades now, and counting, it is no coincidence how some variation of the "Golden Rule" seems to be a foundational component of all of the enduring world religions.
Religion teaches us about "community" - and how whether an isolated tribe or within a big city, religions of the world teach us how to live our lives and respect each other.
There are as many notions of the "afterlife" as there are religions, and there are many, many thousands of them.
As I look at the charitable good may do under the flag of their religion, I feel the endless generosity of these people for treating less fortunate, would be the same, regardless of actual existence of their god.
There are good people in our world, and there are bad.
The bad will distort their beliefs to suit some fearful need to "eliminate" those who do not "believe" in their particular god.
No religion type is immune to fundamental extremists.
And no teachings would condone the destruction of non believers.
Yet, this is what we have today.
Over 200 people in Sri Lanka were killed today . . .
I guess they "believed in the wrong god" !
1
A thoughtful and timely column. It reminds me of my own questions over the years. As a boy I, from time to time, was in Christian Sunday schools here and there. The lessons were sometime confusing.
For example: The God Christians follow wanted his 'people' to be freed from Egypt. But, the King refused. So, God then began taking the innocent 'first born' until the King relented. An all mighty God had no other way to get his people freed? Then after they were freed he parted the Red Sea so that they could escape the King's change of mind. Contradiction after contradiction. A young boy confused.
My oldest daughter, who is Jewish, when very young, once asked about the Immaculate Conception and I had no answer. So she decided that "maybe Mary was fooling around". Out of the mouth of babes.
Now, I basically worship nature as a sign to me that a God does exist. How else? Why life itself to begin with? The atoms and the universe could do very well without us. But, here we are.
After life? Want to believe but wonder. Lost my son a few years ago. Shortly after his death he came to me in a dream asking me to help him determine where he was, as he was want to do in life when he had a problem. After a discussion in my dream where I tried to help he finally said, "wait, I think I am in Puerto Rico". Discussion over. Nothing since but still feel his presence.
Thank you for again. Ms Jones is a breath of fresh air. Love wins.
18
@Harold The Roman Catholic dogmas of the Immaculate Conception vs. the virgin birth are two separate, distinct beliefs. Mary was born without Original Sin, thus preparing the way for the virgin birth of Christ.
@Harold: for your future reference, the “Immaculate Conception” is a Roman Catholic doctrine that refers to the circumstances of Mary’s conception, not Jesus’.
@Harold
In the interest of accuracy:
The Immaculate Conception is commonly confused with the virgin birth of Jesus, the latter being, rather, the doctrine of the Incarnation. In Christian theology, the Immaculate Conception is the conception of the Virgin Mary free from original sin by virtue of the merits of her son Jesus. The Catholic Church teaches that God acted upon Mary in the first moment of her conception, keeping her "immaculate".
All I can say is WOW! To hear a minister talk this way blows my mind — in a good way.
As a recovering Southern Baptist — my formative years in the 1960s — I struggle with spirituality, religion and faith. There was a time I found comfort in the idea of a relationship with a loving, protective God-Father. But the more I studied and observed, the less I was convinced there is a “God in heaven”. Or that there is even a heaven, per se. I think I was more drawn to the community of loving, caring people in the Disciples of Christ congregation I attended as a young adult.
I am more inclined to believe we should be good, loving and generous humans simply because it is the right thing to do. Not because some dogma tells me I can reap great other worldly rewards in an afterlife.
31
"At the heart of faith is mystery."
And here is why any thinking person must reject the idea of faith.
Ask yourself these two questions:
1) Is there anything a person CANNOT believe on the basis of faith?
2) Is it possible to believe something on faith and be wrong?
I don't see any way to answer those questions "no" and "yes." It therefore inexorably follows that faith is not a reliable mechanism for sorting claims into truths or falsehoods. Faith is a process for believing things in the absence of the type of evidentiary support we would demand for any more prosaic claim (or often in the presence of mountains of evidence to the contrary).
To say that faith is a "mystery" is to some degree a truism.
For those of us who lack it, it is truly mysterious.
10
@Ben
We do not choose to have faith. Faith is a given. We choose to have faith in an ignorant, arbitrary and apathetic universe, or to have faith in an intelligent, intentional and compassionate one. Our choice is important and defines who we become as human beings. Either way we remain people of faith.
This is a beautiful piece. Thank you very much for including it. Reverend Jones's perspective suggests that the litany of narcissism rampant in our government is perhaps a phase that makes stark how selfish and loveless we can be. Eventually, if we can keep the human race alive, we will learn that love is the life force that connects us with nature and each other and can be the principle by which we live. What are we waiting for?
13
"I was raised on the good book, Jesus, 'till I read between the lines", is a quote from the Laura Nero song, "Stoney End".
The meaning of this story is different than most people realize, and it takes critical thinking to figure it out.
Anyway, it is just a story, and like all stories, some are true and some are fictional.
Religion gives people faith, because it has no evidence.
All religions were created by men to control people.
26
@Stephen
I totally agree. The myths of various religions were ancient ways to politically control the masses. Religion is the bain of Man's existence.
9
As many of the commenters have rightly pointed out, one cannot have orthodox Christianity without affirming the Apostle’s Creed. The contents of the Creed cannot be proven. They are things that must be assumed. That’s why they are beliefs and not knowledge. For those of you who think you can do without beliefs of any kind, consider the following:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
I hate to disillusion you, but the doctrine of the equality of men (or persons) without reverence to special circumstances is either a barren truism or a delusion. Yet we believe it and have attempted to establish a nation-state on this assumption. We have even fought a civil war to preserve such a nation. (See Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address.)
8
@JamesEric One does not have to believe in a mythology that was created by men to control the rest of humanity in order to believe that common decency and respect for our fellow human beings will result in a more humane society.
2
@JamesEric
Believing in "All men are created equal" is not so much about being blind to special circumstances as it is about "if you prick us, do we not bleed?" There's a difference between equality of circumstances and equality as human beings.
Equality of circumstances is non-existent. People are born with mental and physical disabilities, people are born poor, people are intentionally disadvantaged due to color, gender, and religious beliefs. The list of circumstantial inequalities is vast--some can be fixed, some cannot.
But, we are all human beings. That's our equality. Dignity and opportunity for everyone is the goal of people who believe that 'all men are created equal,' not that we're all going to have the same amount of money or whatever 'being equal' is supposed to mean these days.
Sure beats believing in 'virgin birth.' Of what earthly use is that?
In a while , I will drive 25 miles to a Catholic Church as it is Easter . I don't subscribe to a lot of Catholc doctrine and stay silent while the Nicene Creed is spoken. Some of it defies logic, if there can be logic in religion. I see it as mythology, just like the greeks had. But for Christians, it is our mythology. In spiritual terms, Buddhism makes infinitely more sense.
24
@Thomas
Our home is in a tiny neighborhood that a local Catholic church has overtaken, plying local government with under the table money and turning our tiny street into its own religious fiefdom, dawn to dusk, 7 days/week.
So we awoke at 6:30 a.m. to slamming giant SUV doors, horn honks, alarm chirps, a parade of traffic parking outside our bedroom windows as if it were a stalled interstate entrance ramp. Try celebrating your religion at home. Doubtless, all those 25 miles of sane people not hewing to your ancient cult will thank you.
1
@Thomas, then why even drive the 25 miles to attend such a service?
The fact is, humans created God to reflect their own image and to explain their existence. 'God' is a euphemism to explain life itself. There is no supernatural being in the clouds, only in our minds, for without humans, 'God' ceases to exist. If every human being would begin to see others as god-figures, or as the truest manifestations of 'God', perhaps war, violence and other inhumanities would stop? That is my hope, since any insult or pain or violence inflicted on another person is or should be seen as an affront to God, aka, other human beings/humanity itself.
42
We need to consider other religious options that reflect ecology as a moral imperative for humankind. Christianity had its chance with the directive to preserve "the garden" but has failed to raise that to a higher value by enshrining it in the Ten Commandments or Creed. Early humans had a better understanding of their dependence on the natural world which seems absent in the middle eastern religions.
4
ok, I agree but then why Christianity? The are similar offers on the table: Buddhism, Mohammedism, Taoism, Pantheism, etc. Why not Socrates without resurrection. I am in the same rational place, but not sure calling myself a Christion does much more than calling myself a humanist.
26
Self-reflection is always a good thing, because it is an exercise in the aspect of humanness which most differentiates us from other animals inhabiting our planet.
At the same time, Easter and other religious holidays are not the times to go through agonizing doubt or to criticize the sincere beliefs of others. The former is self-abuse, and the latter is gratuitous cruelty.
Whatever a person’s religion is or if they have none at all, the duty of everyone is to avoid harming other people.
The right of everyone living a good life is to seek peace of mind and to be left alone, if that is what she or he chooses.
8
I enjoyed the article and the points that Dr. Jones made. As a student at the institution where she received her theological training I am always pleased to hear her speak faithfully about faith in Christ. That being said my only issue is with the artwork chosen for these columns. Are they chosen intentionally for their grounding in the European Christian imagination? Is there a reason they were chosen over other works that are more faithful to a historical understanding of Jesus' cultural context? If not these paintings, for me just reinforce Christianity as the religion of the empire that has wreaked havoc on nations and peoples across time and space. If there wasn't a deeper intent here I'd suggest exploring more historically accurate depiction of Christ and his ministry.
2
@Joshua Narcisse
Each era interprets the story of Christ in its own way.
Our era is one of seismic changes in faith and religion. And, reading James Fowler's classic "Stages of Faith," one can see it as an era deeply influenced by The Enlightenment (fact-searching) and undeveloped in religious maturity, as born out in some comments.
I am glad to read this article, with the depth it presents, in a simple, clear way.
1
If the remains of Jesus were found tomorrow, it would reduce Christianity from a faith in something superhuman to a mere ideology that measures all things in human units of value.
No thank you. I'm counting on finding out that as unscientific and inexplicable to the 21st Century (nevermind the 1st) the Resurrection might be, it is true. Your mileage may vary; I'm okay with that, Nicholas--I trust you are too. May our tribes live in peace and mutual respect.
8
Nick,
I have always admired your columns. This one, for me, was particularly enjoyable because it revealed so much about you. In a sense, you share what I do as a Reform Jew. You take from religion the principles for being kind to others and leading a good life, and leave the miracles out of it. In a sense, you are a "Reform Christian." And, if a lay person - who doesn't know you except for the many columns I've read attesting to your humanity and seeing you elucidate it so clearly on TV - can answer your question, yes, I believe you can discard what Richard Dawkins calls the "hocus-pocus" of religion and still be a good Christian, in that you use its moral principles to guide your life and you live by them. I have to think if all people of all religions became "Reform" instead of "Orthodox" or zealots, and cared more about their actions than their scripture, the world would be a much, much better place.
51
@allseriousnessaside Amen
@allseriousnessaside I cannot be inspired by a glorification of the pagan rite of human sacrifice made to appease an "all- loving" god.
@allseriousnessaside of course, one does not need any organized religion at all to have these very same "moral principles to guise your life"
Easter derives from Passover which derives from astronomy. The Passover Seder must take place after the vernal equinox in the northern hemisphere. (There are additional conditions, such as barley needing to be ripe at the time. Otherwise, an additional month is inserted into the calendar to ensure that spring has truly arrived.) Passover occurs at the time of the first full moon after the equinox. (So the earth revolving around the sun and the moon revolving around the earth both have seats at the Seder table.) Easter falls on the Sunday following this full moon. This year, Easter should have occurred near the end of March but was delayed. The equinox fell on March 20, but the church defines it as March 21. (Long story short, we wound up with the month delay because of the regulation with the full moon. A motion was brought up during Vatican II to assign a fixed date to Easter, but it was abandoned.)
7
This redefinition will call for a reinvention of the sacred. The Cosmos is waiting. The planet is waiting. Only then will we humans find the emergence of a new civilizational social/political/economic paradigm, one that will enable future generations to live in a biologically consonant relationship with Planet Earth and the cosmos.
The rewards in recognizing this redefinition will be enormous. The pain of not recognizing it will be beyond the human imagination; as within the next several generations our society bears witness to the beginning of the extinction of our species.
www.InquiryAbraham.com
6
Another thought that I struggle with is this: is the sacrifice that Jesus dying on a cross diminished by his awareness that it's a necessary part of a larger plan? What has truly been sacrificed if he was later resurrected?
6
Making a son of god in the image of man to save man from making god in man's image. The sin is putting man at the center -- the end all and be all of creation. Or even if you believe in evolution, believing falsely, that man is the endpoint.
Our salvation and the salvation of the earth will only come by humbling man to prevent the ultimate sacrifice of earth. We are at the final crossroad.
11
Thank you, Nick Kristof for interviewing Serene Jones for this piece. I always appreciate your columns and your choice of people to interview. I, too, struggle with what resurrection means other than God's emphatic NO! to silencing God's truth with violence. I, too, believe we are in the middle of a new sort of reformation. Again, thank you!
9
@Rev. Sylvia Carlson
Right wing fundamentalists are on the rise. Our country is in a decline. This is a cause and effect relationship. Please evangelize to them.
I agree that we need a new approach to faith and spirituality in all religions. How about a faith built around earth, ecosystems and biodiversity? Interestingly, tomorrow is Earth Day. That seems to be a very important marker in this day and age. Here is a link to an interfaith compilation of climate prayers. That's a start.
13
It would be more interesting to hear believers discuss whether their personal religious experience of Christianity could continue if they no longer believed that the central claims of the Nicaean Creed were literally true.
I'm not persuaded that belief or non-belief in anything is the central ingredient in building the type of lasting grass-roots unity that the Emperor Constantine had in mind when he seized upon religion as a way to stop the crumbling of the western empire. Maybe the mere conformity required for membership in the dominant population satisfies a basic human need for a sense of security.
5
Excellent article, Mr Kristof.
Are you a Christian, you ask. That depends on whether Christianity, and other religions, are able to adapt to 2000 years of scientific knowledge - perhaps with a "reformation".
A commenter, B Kay, notes that "Jones knocks down almost the entirety of supernaturalism, Christian or otherwise". That "supernaturalism" was an attempt thousands of years ago to explain the world.
We now know from science that there is no grand meaning to our existence. We are biological creatures and in biological systems whatever works is what happens. We are nothing more than creatures who have succeeded biologically in our environment and if we destroy our environment we will un-succeed.
Perhaps, if Christianity could focus more on the philosophy of Christ's teachings, as Reverend Jones does, and less on the supernaturalism, which still seems to be the central focus for many, you could think of yourself as a Christian and the world would be better off.
48
@MKlick: “We know from science that there is no grand meaning to our existence”. That is a grand claim to make, and as someone with scientific training I can tell you that science can tell us no such thing. The modern scientific method to which I assume you are referring uses measurements to infer the past and predict the future in limited scenarios. It says nothing about purpose, other than perhaps that this happened because the scientist wanted it to... at which point we are needing to postulate external purpose (which I think you were trying to avoid).
4
My only concern with the religious practices and beliefs of others is that they do not intrude on the secular governance of the country and do not, by law, impose their beliefs, practices and restrictions on the personal behavior on others, thereby protecting my rights under the Constitution to privacy and to practice or not to practice any religion as I see fit.
123
@TE Duggan: On the contrary: *all* systems of governance impose their belief systems on others. The US is founded on a certain set of beliefs that are largely derived from Judea-Christian principles influenced by British parliamentary government. The US *imposes* monogamy. Are you against that?
1
Why a God would require that his only son suffer a painful death in order to redeem mankind never made sense to me. Perhaps Jesus saw his death as a powerful way to teach people of the value and the necessity of sacrifice. In an agricultural society, the seed that is not eaten but instead given up to be sown yields many seeds more. That that sacrifice should be necessary for our survival is the law of nature, a requirement laid down by the creator; it is also the consequence of mankind's realization of the way the world works - and the product of the sweat of his brow.
Community works when we sacrifice our time, our energy, and some of the wealth we produce. If we were to consume all of those or keep them for ourselves, we would not survive. The figurative interpretation of this myth is a more powerful and universal message and much less problematic than the fundamentalist literal reading.
As for the Virgin Mary, the competing religious concept of woman's role was very much about sex and fertility, but not so much about motherhood. Introducing the notion of a virgin goddess who was very much a mother but who had not conceived her son through sex shifted the focus away from sex towards the role of mother and mediatrix/advocate for others - a more general maternal role that has a more universal resonance and considerable emotional appeal. Again, the literal interpretation falls short and is full of problems that stretch our credulity. No need to go there.
8
My brain is tired from reading all the discussions regarding religion!
It's simply humans trying to deny death as finite. Live each day to the fullest in whatever realm you're in at the moment and be kind. I'm grateful for medical research to make our lives more comfortable. If we could only make existence better for us and our animal friends along the way life could be a little more joyful.
38
This is some interesting storytelling--a sort of modern mythology all its own without any basis in what the Bible (or other contemporaneous sources) say about Jesus, the crucifixion or the resurrection. For another side to this discussion, I highly recommend checking out Ravi Zacharias, who comes to Christianity from an Eastern mindset but with a well-reasoned faith.
2
I appreciate that this column offers what’s critically missing from our public dialogue - a clear liberal Christian voice. I suspect that there are many of us who believe deeply in Jesus’ message of not only love, but social justice, that feel “‘Something is horribly wrong here.’ It’s a spiritual crisis.” The idea that God placed Trump in the White House or that God sanctions policies that undermine the integrity of others is antithetical to what many liberal Christians like myself believe. Reading the gospel, Jesus’ message was radical, but not complicated. We empower the disenfranchised, not the interests of the rich and powerful to the exclusion of others. We care for those that are in need, not dismantle social support systems that promote equality, education and healthcare. We act as truth tellers, like the women at the cross and tomb, not obstruct justice. Although I have not spoken to Serene in years, I appreciate the time we spent together. As I try to do in my life and work, I hope she continues to fight the good fight.
40
To be fully human, man needs both mythology and science, poetry and prose. The key is to be able to tell the difference. For many the key has been lost under the doormat. Jones seems to have kept his key safely in his pocket.
5
The author is a woman.
If one does a serious, close reading of scripture, one would find out that among other inconsistencies the biggest two are the two very different versions of creation where man is one version is created on the 6th day. In the other version man is created in the beginning and then animals to keep him company. The same holds true with the Noah's ark story where in one version he takes more pairs of unclean animals than in the other version.
So much for no errors in scripture.
4
@esp If you want to contemplate errors in scripture, check this out: http://bibviz.com/
@esp: What you cite is the reason that people who interpret the bible texts (particularly Kabbalists) say there were more than one creation. It also answers the question of how Cain met his wife. The other people (aside from Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel) came from an earlier creation; an unstable creation during which the "vessels" shattered. But this is all mythology anyway and explanations are pointless. If you seek consistencies in myth and legend you have a long haul ahead of you!
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
1
Wow! What a strange interview with a Christian minister who leads a congregation preaching mystery, wonder, and "spiritual" flexibility.
Not much spirituality left in this philosophy; I find it very, very refreshing.
It reminds me of Shelby Spong's approach to Christianity. I would like to know whether the minister is as truthful with his congregation as he was with you.
He sounds like every open-minded agnostic and atheist I know.
18
The author is a woman!
@JFR
Because this Jones like so many is hedging his bets. I can take away some core principles I most like, that seem most applicable to a Justice focused life, but I also better make sure to hang on to just a little of the GOD, in case...you know...he does exists and insists that faith in him is necessary for a pass into his Night club.
Just saying...a hedged bet is better then no bet at all...
All religions are based on fantastic ideas that personify the representation of forces which we don't understand. Looking at any of elements of the basic mythos regarding religious beliefs as factual forgets that it is all symbolic and metaphorical. Major world religious beliefs developed as a defense against feeling alone, confused and insignificant in the universe and a way of teaching morals and species protective social behaviors.
We get attached to our traditions and like to reify the abstractions to train our children and justify great cultural sacrifice. Good teaching tales to explain and mitigate the experience of negative outcomes, e.g., misfortune is God's punishment for sin, or in the absence of sin is proof of the mysteriousness of God's will. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, all good stories to comfort us as we seek to have a just world to live in where we can reduce the anxiety of the unpredictability of life and the apprehension of our own mortality.
6
4/21/19 I am in complete agreement with the opinions expressed in this opinion piece. That is why I go to church. I may not believe that Jesus was God. But I can and do follow his teaching of love and caring. Bravo Mr. Kristof!
18
@DickR
Respectfully: What does going to church have to do with practicing love and caring, and valuing those who teach love?
I saw value in church when I believed in Father, Son & Holy Spirit, in Christian resurrection due to Jesus, etc. If I don't believe all that... then why would I not just be kind, loving and generous outside of church?
18
Many thanks for this series of interviews. As with other components of human life, organized religion as a collective instrument of spiritual expression in community will either continue to evolve in its forms or cease to be at all relevant. The extensive Christian Fundamentalist mass propaganda machine is ironically the last gasp of the old religious paradigm as the new ones emerge and grow in grace.
10
Nicholas,
Why get stymied by the simple questions answers with obvious answers about Christ?
Can a virgin give birth? Can a dead body come back to life? The biological answers to these questions is, of course, no. Done. Finito.
However, how about these questions, which are harder to answer and more important to ask:
Should we "love our neighbors as our-self"?
Should we take up where Jesus left off by valuing the diverse and discarded humans of our time as he did in his time?
Can we learn from a man surrounded by people fasting on the Sabbath but who chose to eat because, well, his disciples were hungry? (thereby role modeling practical thinking instead of dogmatic, rote, repetition of rules.).
Jesus lives on today (indeed, you are writing about him yes?) because:
whatever his message was to the people of his time, it was powerful enough to take on a life of its own.
and therein lies the heart of resurrection.
His message, which was filled with kindness and the valuing of diversity, including women, that beckoned to the downtrodden of the time.
That message lives on today having helped bring forgiveness to the Western legal system, a chance for those who different to co-exist in the same neighborhoods, and,
freedom of religion encoded in the US constitution (so that Christians who came from Europe could worship as they chose, not worship as a King chose).
So, I ask you Nicholas: Is Jesus Dead?
29
@Michael
I think answers to your first two questions are predicated on the belief in God. And if God indeed created the universe, the ability to do what you ask is child's play. The rest, especially your final question kind of misses the point of the piece. Jesus, if you believe, was human, and the spirit of Christ was love, full stop. So yes, the spirit of love still exists on earth and when it ceases to exist so goes the human form.
3
@Michael We talk about Jesus today because for nearly 2000 years Christianity has been literally was forced on 100's of millions of people, most often upon pain of torture and death, as their own religions and spiritualities were systematically stamped out. It has zero to do with messages of love and compassion.
As a former seminary lecturer myself, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how insignificant Dr Jones seems to believe the resurrection (and other supernatural claims) are to the New Testament, as well as to basic Christianity. For example, the New Testament accounts really aren't "all over the place" regarding the central claim that Jesus rose. That claim is repeated in all four Gospels, and even Mark's brief account features the line "He is risen." Paul later takes Jesus' physical resurrection as central belief because it is the downpayment of God's future physical renewal of the whole cosmos.
And while she aims to promote the Christian ethic of love (which is laudable), Jones knocks down almost the entirety of supernaturalism, Christian or otherwise: the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent God is a "fabrication", the nature of the afterlife is basically unknowable, belief in the virgin birth is "bizarre" and sex-hating, and to say Jesus' death involved him bearing the cost of human sin is "nuts".
Now, Jones might be right about these things, but the stripped down belief system that she leaves us with wouldn't be recognizable as the teachings of Jesus to either the biblical authors, nor to the early Christians, nor to most present day Christians outside of a teeny slice of Western academics. Her version of the facts might be right, but it doesn't make much historical sense to still call that version "Christianity."
44
@B Kay
Neither virgin birth nor resurrection were ideas new to Christianity. Both occur in other traditions that predate Christianity. Early Christians borrowed convenient parts of the calendars of other cultures to place holidays celebrating important moments in Christianity (Christmas and Easter), why is it impossible to believe that they may also have borrowed supernatural elements?
And then there is the matter of men assembling the Bible by picking and choosing the texts that supported what they wanted everyone to believe...
Why do the simple teachings of love first, love always, love infinite need supernatural elements? How are those teachings not profound and even mystical enough?
41
@B Kay
I am a female Catholic that was educated by nuns and I continue to work with various organizations of Catholic sisters around the United States. I find many female Christians and Catholic sisters have no trouble following the life of Jesus without belief in the miracles. Men are the ones who have the problem??
5
@B Kay Christ has died. Christ has risen. Christ will come again!
A Course in Miracles, as taught by Kenneth Wapnick, Ph.D., makes many of the same points, but goes further. It says only love is real; all the rest is made by our egos. The world of our egos arose in a dream moment when we latched on to the idea that we preferred to be separate from God, separate from Love. Although it seems we are stuck in this bad dream, we can return; but we need to first examine the pain our ego thinking has caused us and then forgive ourselves and others we have blamed for our pain.
6
I really like Serene Jones' interpretation of the meaning in Christianity because in is consonant with Buddhist philosophy. Hatred and ego lead to suffering. Love and the minimization of ego lead to contentedness. A timeless truth.
17
I grew up in Detroit in the 50s and 60s . I was educated in the Reform stream of Judaism and in the very mixed neighborhood schools of Northwest Detroit. I was always curious in learning and understanding the various streams of Christianity too. As a student I would ask questions of my teachers without getting much in the way of answers.
I came to a Kibbutz in Israel when I was in my twenties and had finished College and part of graduate school. I married a son of the kibbutz. To get married by the Rabbinate in Israel my mother had to go to the Orthodox Council in Detroit with two men who were not relatives of mine and not of each other and who would swear that I was an unmarried woman and was Jewish. The document was written in Hebrew and the word used to refer to me as an unmarried woman was the Hebrew equivalent of virgin. I found that interesting. This document starting me thinking along the lines of what the meaning of the virgin birth might be. If the Bible in its translations along the historical way might have t been a semantic issue. There were times in the far past that there was no question that an unmarried woman was no doubt also a virgin. So the use of the term may have harmlessly meant that Mary and Joseph were not married at the time that she gave birth to Jesus. This status would have had its own reality but a different one than that defined by Mary being a virgin.
21
@donnajoy I think you may be on to something. We do need to return to the culture and semantics and context of the times in our attempt to find relevant meaning in the past.
@donnajoy:
thank you for pointing that out.
yet another illustration of the utter
importance of correct translation.
As has been said, the Gospels have seven 'levels' of meaning. Who knows about the seven, but it is easy to see two levels: the literal & the metaphorical/psychological. Christianity & esoteric Christianity have existed side by side from the beginning, even if the literalists have done their uttermost to condemn the esotericists. But both exist, & both serve their purpose.
2
Though raised as a serious Christian fundamentalist, I walked away by my mid-twenties. Immaculate conceptions, virgin births, resurrections and ascensions, along with other so-called miracles did it. But now in my 80s I consider myself a "free-range Christian"--I roam around, pecking and picking the best of Jesus' teachings since I consider his insights, especially for the times, remarkable, though I realize, similar to other religions, Christianity is a human endeavor. The Bible, rather than being "the Word of God," consists of "Words About God"--the culmination of centuries of attempts to answer "the big questions."
When it comes right down to it, the humanistic teachings of Jesus are simple but remarkable: compassion, love, humbleness, etc. Mainstream or orthodox Christianity, as it is known, is really Paul's version. But Paul never met Jesus. To me Paul's emphasis on the afterlife is a perversion although it is unfair to accuse many in the orthodox camp of being insensitive to the humanistic teachings of the Master--they are not mutually exclusive. The hate-filled, intolerant fundamentalism of the Christian right is one of many versions of Christianity. Another version, somewhat ironically, is manifested by a mayor from Indiana, of all places. Strange, in many ways, but certainly interesting.
24
There are many belief systems; sacred and secular. Religionists, authentic and faux.There are many facts, fictions and fantasies; separate as well as "goulashed." Much that exists. Known. Currently unknown because of lack of needed information and technologies. It is usefull to consider that there also may be "unknowables," even as we are called upon to judge, make decisions and implement them or not. All of this within our experienced realities of interacting uncertainties. Randomness. Unpredictabilities. And lack of control no matter what we actually do, in a timely manner; ourselves and with others. Religious narratives, and their created, implications and meanings, derived and evidence based concepts, of whatever generalizability are not inherently menschlich in their useability.The sacred and the secular offer opportunities for BEING, in Identity as well as behaviorally, personally accountability for our words and actions. Those voiced, written and done, as wellas those which need to be carried out, transmitted, for our own wellbeing and those of others, and haven't been. This Passover- Easter week is a much-needed reminder to be aware of, pay attention to, toxic willful blindness, deafness, and ignorance in our enabled WE-THEY violating cultures and worlds. And the opportunity to make our own contributions, as best as each of us can, given who and what each of US is, is not, may yet BEcome, to make a difference that makes a much needed, sustainable difference.
1
What a lovely article! For over 50 years I have been on a quest for the historical Jesus. It is a journey without a defined end point, aided greatly by Biblical scholarship, which in turn raises more questions than it can ever answer. For me, there are often many conflicts between Church Dogma and the teachings of Jesus. Serene Jones’ comments go to the heart of the matter and truly do reflect a new Reformation. I have not yet read her book, but I suspect that it pairs nicely with Fabrizio de André’s “La Buona Novella”.
7
@Jay Nichols
Albert Schweitzer is amongst those who rote about the historical Jesus.
Well, St. Paul said that if there was no resurrection that we are worse than fools. Meaning that simply believing in Christian ethics without the life of the Spirit is without sense. In today’s world, I would not go that far, since I would rather that people believe in and live Christian ethics than not. In my own life, I started with living Christian ethics and only later accepted the Christian Creed.
The basic Christian statement of faith, the Apostles Creed, affirms the virgin birth (conceived by the Holy Spirit), the resurrection of Jesus (on the third day he rose again) and of all of us (the resurrection of the body), and heaven (life everlasting). All Christians affirm this belief when they affirm their faith.
If you don’t affirm this belief, whatever your reasons, again I hesitate to say you are not a Christian if you say you are because I would rather that you be with us than against us. (“If he is not against us he is with us.”)
And I agree that love is the greatest commandment and covers many imperfections and doctrinal disagreements (covers many sins). This is especially true because faith is a journey that we start from many different starting points, beliefs, experiences, understanding, and communities. (“God is love”)
And I still affirm the Creed and I think it is central to Christianity. Something Christians should strive to accept and live. Again, for me, first came living the ethics and only later the belief once I had an experience of God.
11
Thank you very much for introducing readers to Serene Jones. I think her views are quite wise. I revere Jesus's teachings, but it should be observed that Jesus never told us his mother was a virgin or that he would ascend physically. If people would just focus on what he did say, wow ... that'll be the day. At any rate, Mr. Kristoff, this is how you be a Christian without believing in the virgin birth or a physical resurrection. I do not believe in a virgin birth and I shake my head at the story that "Jesus died to save us from our sins" when it is very clear that Jesus died because of easily recognizable patterns of human psychology and politics. Jesus was a rebel against the formulized religion of his day. Need I say more? But I do allow that it may be possible that Jesus's consciousness was such as to undergo a physical resurrection. I agree that that is mystery, though. Anyhow, if you or Ms. Jones think a lot about this, why not explore the vast literature on afterlife experiences? Resurrection may be a more common human experience than you think.
13
@Anne Sherrod
What "teachings"? Don't lie; be sincere; and be compassionate for those less fortunate than you. Worth practicing no doubt but "revering"?
@Anne Sherrod
Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:24-29 New International Version
1
Serene Jones may be a wonderful person. But she has moved so far away from Christian orthodoxy that she should just come out and call herself a theist. There's nothing wrong with that. But truth in advertising is still an important concept.
And given the point of view from which Nicholas Kristof approaches these interviews, I really wonder why he does this. So what if he doesn't believe? That's his choice. But he seems to want to find a Christianity which fits him, rather than fit himself to Christianity.
41
You want Nick to find a Christianity that fits you. Christianity... as defined by you. And it's her and herself. Serene is a "she."
@atc How is that different than the way any other person chooses a religion? And it is a choice.
@atc
When Serene Jones shrugged off the question about the afterlife, I shrugged off Serene Jones. The rich theology of orthodox Christianity, as exemplified in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many denominations of Evangelical Protestantism, offers much more than this pablum. No wonder the Mainline Protestantism is moribund
2
Serene Jones sounds like an awfully nice person but even from my standpoint as a Jew who feels tied to the issue of Jesus' divinity if not quite able to accept it by reason of faith alone, it seems to me that the Reverend is more impressed by His teachings than she is by His deeds. Which would align her with the thinking of most Jews and Muslims (and Buddhists and Hindus, etc.) who similarly hold Jesus- i.e., Jesus the man- in the highest regard but who aren't ready to acknowledge Him as anything more than a man. I can't, however, imagine that Rev. Jones would be looked upon with much favor by most of her fellow devotees. For the great majority of Christians, the Resurrection is not merely a symbol of God's love for His undeserving children but the central tenet of their faith. The words are beautiful and meaningful but the climax of the story is what makes it all so special.
comment submitted 4/21 at 1:27 AM
25
@stu freeman
I consider myself an orthodox Christian and find your words quite insightful. Thank you.
1
Just a note on the art work that might be of interest...
It is an amazing moment in art history where the style and hand of two very important Renaissance artists can be seen in one work.
Filippino Lippi painted the top half, then passed away. Pietro Perugino finished the bottom.
19
Wow. Thank you for this. I have tried to express this to family (Roman Catholics for whom I have deep respect and also for the faith in which I was raised) but I share these views mostly and can't believe there's someplace where I might "worship" with others who feel the same, who see the symbolism.
18
“Who” or perhaps “what” would a “Christian” be “worshipping” with her beliefs? She sounds more like agnostic.
I find Serene Jones' positions to be, well, confused. I would be the last to condemn her hesitations regarding the Virgin birth, the Resurrection, or eternal life -- I myself am a "Christian" who has become distanced from sure belief. But at that point I don't know why one would continue to believe in the "religion" -- to the point of directing a theological seminary -- rather than acknowledging that Christian belief and theology has generated remarkable spiritual insights that can be accessed by anyone, and leaving it at that. A founder of Christianity, Paul, wrote that if Christ did not rise from the dead his followers were more to be pitied then anyone. It is patently clear, historically speaking, that there would be no Christianity as a dominant spirituality now unless millions of devotees through the ages had not believed exactly that. It's virtually specious for us now, inheriting all this, to "believe" while undermining the epistemological and teleological foundations of the religion. Why do we cling to the "religion" if we only believe in some of its claims as a "spirituality"? A religion is a set of beliefs. A spirituality is a cluster of perceptions. If you have lost conviction regarding the tenets of a religion but still find some of its insights spiritually compelling, say so. But don't confuse that with practicing the religion. From what Ms. Jones says here, she is not a "Christian"; she is a spiritual person with a Christian-inspired perspective.
66
@Patrick I suggest you dig a little deeper for a more accurate knowledge of Christian and Church history, your Biblical presumptions, your definitions of religion and spirituality, and alas your definition of "Christian." In brief, your use of the Bible is dangerous and carves an argument in the fundamentalist traditions. i.e., Using a passage attributed to Paul? Paul's perspectives are an element in early Christian views but not the only Christian perspectives among early believers. Additionally you interpretation that the church's "dominance" spiritually was due to a belief in a literal and physical resurrection is a minimalist historical understanding regarding the growth of Christianity and a limiting definition of spirituality if the notion that a resurrection belief makes a spirituality dominant.
9
@Patrick: Good reasoning. It is good that you give a reference to someone respected throughout history, namely Saint Paul, whose writings are generally considered to be divinely inspired by those who have called themselves Christians down the years.
@JRR: you do not give any reference to other definitions of “Christian”, so we cannot evaluate your claims. Having encouraged Patrick to “dig deeper”, you could at least have given some pointers. However, given my research on the matter, including some of the non-canonical gospels (Nag Hamadi et al) and reviewing much more learned opinions, I would say that the expectation that a Christian should believe in Jesus’ bodily resurrection (given by Paul in Romans 10:9) was a standard expectation, even before Constantine (who was no theologian and did not impose any theology on the Councils).
2
@Patrick
Ahh...got it.
Only Patrick and HIS crew are the REAL Scotsman.
Before there was Christian orthodoxy, there was heterodoxy, a pluralism of understandings in the early Jesus movement. I'm now a retired minister in a tradition that has not had a creed, but has built a faith on values, love, and practice that has roots in the early church. Unitarian Universalism preaches love, justice and the inherent worth and dignity of every person. I didn't need biblical literalism to find meaning as a religious leader. Happy Easter! Love is stronger than death.
45
@Diane: these claims for a general heterodoxy being forced into orthodoxy are not well-supported and seem to be a modern fad. The level of heterodoxy down the ages has not really changed much, and those who call themselves Christians but reject the creeds and the general canon of scripture have always been out there, but have never lasted long, even though the ideas often pop up. Similarly, orthodoxy has always been there with relatively little variation, relying on the aforementioned scripture and creeds.
"I don’t believe in a God .."Seems to me that Ms. Jones doesn't believe in God at all. He can't do this, He didn't do that, so who is he for Ms. Jones? Seems to me, that Ms. Jones' god is a figment of her imagination, not the Creator God revealed in the Bible who sacrificed his Son to save sinners. Ms. Jones doesn't understand that, but every father whose son perished in battle understands that, and every son that entered battle understands Christ who sacrificed his life for much more than just a country. Sacrifice has invaluable worth; it's not that hard to understand!
13
I respect Rev. Jones right to her beliefs; but I am surprised she is the president of a theological seminary with said beliefs.
I believe in an actual physical resurrection of Jesus. It proves life after death, and that's why it's essential to Christian faith.
She is spot on about love being the ultimate message of Jesus. Christian leaders should always lead with the primacy of love.
11
@Michael of course it doesn't "prove" anything unless, for some reason, one has convinced him or her self that it is true...and that is not my definition of truth
1
@Michael
".....but I am surprised she is the president of a theological seminary with said beliefs."
Seems to me that you have just had a lesson in the diversity of Christian beliefs.
"This is the latest in my occasional series of conversations about Christianity" -- I wish to read more of the same by Mr. Kristof. I believe that one can consider oneself belonging to more than one religion, based on the Ten Commandments and where the name of God is replaced by Eternal Moral. Then it still remains a mystery, why did primordial monotheism split in the 1st century CE into Judaism and Christianity.
I might have found a way out of this quandary by leaning to the dualist faith of the Manicheans and Cathars in life as Eternal Struggle of Good and Evil. A calming thought without making one fatalistic.
3
Many, many years ago, I remember my mother telling we why we did not practice any organized religion: "I want you to do what is right, because it is right, and not because you are afraid of being punished by God." I think she was ahead of her time.
523
@Micky Z
"Jonathan Edwards points out that "true virtue" is only
possible for those who have experienced the grace of the gospel. Any person who is
trying to earn their salvation does "the right thing" in order to get into heaven, or in
order to better their self-esteeem (etc.). In other words, the ultimate motive is self interest. But persons who know they are totally accepted already do "the right thing"
out of sheer delight in righteousness for its own sake. Only in the gospel do you obey
God for God's sake, and not for what God will give you. Only in the gospel do you love
people for their sake (not yours), do good for its own sake (not yours), and obey God
for his sake (not yours). Only the gospel makes "doing the right thing" a joy and
delight, not a burden or a means to an end. " Tim Keller NY Pastor and Author
2
@Micky Z
Your momma was a saint and she was right on time.
17
And how do you determine what is right? Invariably you will refer back to a moral system. A moral system is a religion.
1
So much is probably lost in various Biblical versions and translations. Many scholars suggest that the actual text simply describes her as a virgin before she conceived. Context is everything and most of us are compelled to trust the exogesis of various scholars.
7
I never seem to understand religious discussions. All these smart people trying to find answers that can never be and will never be, even with the most astute observers, anything more than speculation.
53
@Rick Gage
Perhaps there is value in simply asking the questions. The answer is the journey, not the destination.
2
Religious discussion (or any discussion) for me is a way to think through the various aspects of my belief or non-belief about the subject. I find that hearing/reading different perspectives on a subject helps me organize my thoughts. Sometimes the foundation under my belief (any belief, not necessarily religious) is made firmer, sometimes it gets shakier and then I know I have more work to do to get closer to a solution, if there even is a solution. I don’t have to agree with all the different perspectives, but I think about them and how the others arrived at them. It’s how I learn and continue to grow. Being open to, respectful of, and willing to learn from other points of view is not a bad thing and does not make a weak person. I’ve met some truly interesting people, some who I respect and call friend even though our beliefs differ, and I feel richer for it.
1
@Rick Gage
Particularly because they concern imaginary entities called gods.
2
I love this interview because the interview with Rev. Jones expresses so much about what needs to be at the heart of Christianity and, indeed it is at the center of all the great religious traditions. It's about love and how we should live with one another. It's pretty simple.
We cannot "know" God, for how can we know the ineffable? Those preachers who say they know what God wants are lying to themselves and to their followers.
Yet I have experienced moments of Grace when I have felt that mysterious sense of unity with universal Love that I can only comprehend as Divine.
I happen to be Christian and to me, Jesus brought good news to the poor. The stories passed down by the early church were pretty clear about that. Jesus told us the people who suffered from poverty or sickness were not poor because they deserved to be poor, or sick because they were being punished as was understood in his time.
The great commandment passed down: to love YHWH the (Adonai) to love your neighbor--especially the stranger and the outcast--is at the core of Christian faith. Compassion is the word for it. The world would be a far better place if we could all abide in love and allow love to abide in us.
50
Far from denigrating the Christian Gospels, to me removal of the confining shackles of literal interpretation elevates scripture to the level of credibility. It introduces suggestion of intriguing metaphorical meaning. How refreshing indeed to find that the president of Union Theological Seminary is comfortable with such an interpretation.
88
The main message of Rabbi Jesus is that all of us have an obligation to take care of the least among us. That is a message that all of us should take seriously. All the dogma could not matter less. Concentrate on what is really important.
188
@Sans Souci
"What is really important"...The teenage daughter of a friend of mine went to bed and never woke up, having died in her sleep from a heart defect no had known she had. I assure you that to my devastated friend, belief in an after life is "really important".
5
Thank you both for posting this message. It reminds me that the main message of Jesus Christ was for us to love each other and to serve each other. To me, the "KISS" principle works here. The Bible isn't a history book. While "profoundly true," some of it is not "literally true." Remember: love one another.
16
"For me, the cross is an enactment of our human hatred."
For me its an enactment of human fear. Fear when confronted with an uncomfortable truth.
Hence the importance of our (and Jesus') patience and compassion for those who treat us badly when we speak a truth that exposes their shame.
19
Same thing, really.
With regard to the virgin birth of Jesus, let me ask you this: what child born into this world is NOT conceived of the Holy Spirit? I find the poetry of the virgin birth far more powerful and meaningful than any historical account. I suspect even God finds literalists and fundamentalists dull and tiresome.
23
I am not a religious person, but I do value a lot of the concepts that are attributed to Jesus' teachings.
What I can't understand is how so many people who profess to be Christians are more interested in the rituals and literality of the Bible than the concepts they convey. There seem to be many self-defined Christians whose hearts are filled with hatred, revenge and greed. Yet they will make sacrifices to comply with the rituals and superficial practices of their particular brands of the faith. They must feel that this will give them enough brownie points for a pass into heaven. Surely a god would see through such professed belief.
It's good to read the comments of a religious minister who values the concepts more than the words.
63
Anyone who has had a true "mystical" experience loses interest in formal religion. In the ecstatic state of unimaginable bliss, unending love and complete peace, there is nothing but god or that which cannot be named. After such an experience, the great teachings of all the religions make sense and do not conflict with each other.
The trappings of man are man's. God does not require anything but love, given and received, as enthusiastically and constantly as possible.
After such an experience, every human being, every blade of grass and every cloud is sacred and to be cherished. Hate is seen simply as profound ignorance.
Very few individuals get a chance to live in this state but the great saints manage to stay there, with god both inside and outside of their existence. Those who are privileged to have such experiences in fleeting moments are forever changed, as St. Paul on the road to Damascus.
Those who believe based on teachings and faith, on doctrine and rules, can easily be lost, confused and doubtful. Jesus transcended the limits of physics, as have others but was not the only person to have done so. (Read "The Autobiography of a Yogi.)
The purpose of life is to learn about Love, to serve human beings and the planet, and to move toward universal understanding and peace. Humanity is a long way from that especially under this President. Some know this is the only path to walk, with or without religion.
God is love. You can find that god only in your own heart.
33
@Jeanie LoVetri “Anyone who has had a true "mystical" experience loses interest in formal religion.”
That certainly was not true of St. Theresa of Avila.
Thank you for this thought provoking article. If God is love and love is god, the rest of the narratIve often seems to confuse and obfuscate this singular focus of faith.
8
I think all religions rely on unprovable myths. With the rise of Science and education, fewer and fewer people believe these.
I wish I could believe in the certainty that religion provides, that bad things happen to good people because God has a plan. I can't.
23
@akamai unfortunately, few of us have any knowledge of science. How can you explain. Why so many parents are not vaccinating their children, or some still rebuff climate change, or evolution. Most of us know more about what the YouTube influencers, move stars, reality stars than basic science.
1
Thank you Mr Kristof and Rev Jones for a thought provoking discussion that doesn't happen often enough in our culture.
There are some real gems in this piece.
59
As a Pastor Emeritus in the United Church of Christ, I have never considered the death of Jesus on a cross, let alone the resurrection story, and certainly not the myths regarding virgin birth and Jesus being the physical son of God as true.
In point of fact, they get in the way, allowing us to pretend to be pious, suffer and mourn on Good Friday and celebrate the following Sunday as though these things happened.
This is not the message of Jesus. Nor does it further the dream of God for all of us.
Until we see through the metaphor and the fiction which fit the era in which the stories were written, we will continue to be able to buffer ourselves from taking personal responsibility for each other: clothing each other, feeding each other, employing each other, providing medical care for each other, listening to each other, loving each other - regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, nationality, anything.
Until then, we are not pious, we are merely bilious.
315
May the Fourth be with you!
2
@rds - never before have I seen this expressed so clearly. as a thinking adult I've been able to formulate far more rational explanations for what occurred 2000 years ago. there's no need for the dogma to continue. The message should be to live love and not in fear of punishment.
9
@rds. Well said!
3
I wish there were a lot more ministers like Serene Jones in the United States than there are Robert Jeffresses. Unfortunately, that’s not the world we live in, and despite Rev. Jones’s conviction that Christianity is on the verge of a new reformation, in my backyard, I don’t see any evidence of that. Instead, places like Oklahoma are well stocked with bible-thumping, fire-and-brimstone, $2500-suit-wearing, McMansion-living, magical-thinking evangelicals who tell their congregations how to vote and to regard those like Rev. Jones as apostates.
247
@Ockham9, the pomp and show, gold and glitter, silk and velvet, go all the way to the Vatican.
9
I think so many of the questions raised around Christian belief or non belief are inconsequential. Serena Jones, the brilliant theologian that she is and with whom I, a non theologian, wouldn't dare argue. I think her focus on love is absolutely correct and that God is mystery. The many paths we get to define that love and mystery are important.
When reading and utilizing Biblical text as the foundation, certain assertions must be made. While I don't know all, I would say that biblical text is not known as a historically accurate document, it contains myths and as Dr. Judy Fentress-Williams, Hebrew Scholar says, propaganda. It must also be read in context and what the goal of the author was doing or attempting to do. I think I've read that all of the writings took place years, if not decades after the events told, and certainly, Moses was not the author of the Pentatuch. Moving from here, literal readings and arguments of foundational faith should be questions.
For me, when I hear the "miraculous" or "signs" arguments, I wonder about the miraculous we accept and possibly try to make other meanings from their being: for example,- can a regular sunrise be a miracle; can the air, water, soil and biologic life needs be met, considered a miracle; what about earth's rotation. I could go on and with the knowledge that "scientific community" would attempt to argue and discredit. While they can explain the how, perhaps not the why.
So, maybe these are false dichtomy arguments.
8
Mr. Kristof, at some point you might consider an interview that covers some of the modern day channeled teachings of Jesus, such as A Course in Miracles or the Way of Mastery. These have a wide following and are serious teachings. Some see them as a correction to Christianity. Jesus himself was not a Christian, after all.
2
Another view is that humans have always wanted and still want certainties. We frame questions like, "Why are we here?" and "Is there any ultimate meaning to our lives?", that have no meaning outside of religion. We want solutions to insoluble problems. And so we create religions. And they satisfy, and the best last 2000 - 3000 years, when we perceive a new revelation and a new one is born (where are the gods of Egypt, Sumeria, Greece, the Mayas, etc.?)
10
It's interesting the extent to which people have issues with the idea of a "virgin birth". If God is (by definition) all-powerful, then a virgin birth is of course possible, and as such it would be a sign of that almighty power.
It's also interesting to me that Rev. Jones decides there is no resurrection because Mark doesn't mention it! That makes one gospel writer who doesn't mention it vs. three who do. It seems to me she's just choosing something that suits what she wishes to believe.
IMO, her argument sounds self-serving rather than well-informed or well-considered - as if she wanted the vanilla ice cream because it was the first flavor listed on the menu, rather than any of the other flavors that are listed later.
17
@L No resurrection story in Mark?...Mark 16:6 "And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him "
1
I can't separate Easter from rebirth, renewal, and the beauty of Spring. I'm not certain about the historical truth of the resurrection (or Mary) but I feel certain that there is a master plan when I behold the earth and all it's spring glory. And yes, I do feel like following Jesus's teaching of sharing and loving others a bit more when I am out among the daffodils and blooming red bud trees.
11
Reverend Jones has described God in such a way that it has no responibilities, is not all knowing or even knowable. The last step is to recognize that there are no gods and to concentrate on helping others while preserving the world for future generations.
44
An excellent read. Accurately reflects the tension between the past and the emerging future in multiple realms of human progress. Clinging to articles of faith in conflict with our experience will ultimately be reshaped. Most of what we know comes from experience rendering virgin births impossible to reconcile.
The shift ought to be away from dogma or rigid teachings and toward discussion of broader issues of the nature of things. I find the notion God dwells inside of man more appealing than Genesis as solid fact.
15
Interesting interview, thank you. I really think that there are more of us than one would expect - raised either Catholic or Protestant - who think and believe as Reverend Jones does. For many of us Catholics, we have eschewed the idea that we are receiving Christ's actual body and blood during Communion. Many of us go up to that altar to receive the host and drink the wine believing it to be symbolic. And the Virgin Birth.. again, many including myself, interpret that as Mary being a virgin with no child in her womb at the time of her marriage. Although I accept Christ's crucifixion as in line with the practice of the time, I doubt the bodily resurrection. Finally, I believe that we are subject to a universal moral law which is more powerful than organized religion which is often subject to the social and political paradigms of the day. Christ preached it along with great spiritual leaders. It is so simple and pure: Love and compassion toward all. Happy Easter, all.
85
@Kathy Lollock
In your Catholic upbringing, you should have been told what Flannery O'Connor had to say about the Eucharist as mere symbol. Once you read her nine words on the subject, you will never forget them.
http://communio.stblogs.org/index.php/2013/06/well-if-its-a-symbol-to-hell-w/
1
@Kathy Lollock
Thank you Kathy-I’m in alignment with you! Happy Easter!
2
@Charles E Flynn Just now read it. Do not know what to say other than thanx for sending the link.
1
Rev. Jones is a minister for our times. Excellent! Yes, the idea of reward in an afterlife is what drives the faith of most Christians. This is religion of a lower order. Yes, love is its own reward.
A few thoughts:
The Virgin Birth is on one level, a potent symbol, found not only in Christianity. It refers to the something that comes from nothing is spiritual life, to ideas, and saving graces that often seem to appear of their own volition. It is much more than a repudiation of sexuality. It is the un-looked for, the solution that takes shape beyond our direct control, beyond our pro-active ability.
The resurrection is likewise a mythological motif, signifying the rebirth that attends the death of ego, and the surrender of the self. The small self that we think we are is an evanescent, transitory object, which dies not once but many times throughout our life.
The physical resurrection is nothing remarkable. The well-documented near-death experience phenomenon provides many examples of people, some of whom were dead for days, who returned to life. This is why fundamentalist Christians are so threatened by NDEs: To them, physical resurrection is only possible by Jesus, and their faith rests entirely on it. This is literalism, and misses the deeper point.
Christianity is really the only religion that insists all other religions must be wrong. This dualism has lead to atrocity. Rev. Jones is pointing the way to a larger conception of Christ.
24
@Mr. Little. I think that there is at least one religion that beliefs all others are wrong. In fact, countries that are theocracies actually execute people who “insult” that religion. Of course, that doesn’t excuse Christianity for any of its failures but let’s be real.
1
Christianity is one of many unconventional hero based stories
with theological trappings and endless argument with pretense of exclusive rights . The BK of Mark is less magical, tends to make more of Jesus a historical figure, with an influential father image in his mind, Jehovah, a radical in his day among those claiming authority, in temple or barracks. Mohammed never claimed to be even part deity, but like Jesus, a prophet for particular theologies, as schism has
reigned. Religion, as the pastor says, might be about love. I hope so, as long as that means equality across the board. Religion is the human spirit of equality and inclusion, call it love, or Campbell's "ground of being." It might hold all, including atheists like myself (not theological) to be just as religious as anyone else.
8
These thoughts seem very coming from a theologian who calls herself a Christian. You ask, "Isn’t a Christianity without a physical resurrection less powerful and awesome?" It seems to me that without a resurrection there would be no Christianity. Christianity is specifically the belief that Jesus was the Messiah, whose sacrifice, of himself, was sufficient to redeem the sins of the whole world. The resurrection is proof that, being divine as well as human, he was a sufficient sacrifice for that. The ideas expressed here sound very good to me, and in fact I'm all for them, but I don't think they can be called Christian.
42
I love to hear what Dr. Jones is saying. Why couldn't we be on the cusp of another Reformation? Just think what humanity could accomplish if religion could acknowledge the uselessness--indeed, the destructiveness--of some of its ancient interpretations and dogma. Old stories can be honored for their symbolism without trying to insist on their literalness. Jettison the racism and misogyny, and keep the love, the morality, the call for us to be the best we can be. This would strengthen religion, not weaken it.
33
@Madeline: the Reformation was about reforming the church to return to the teaching of Jesus and the early church, which and did not include abandoning the Virgin Birth, death and resurrection of Jesus (which have been standard parts of Christian dogma across all denominations all down the ages). What is being described is changing Christianity to a non-Christian religion, which anyone is welcome to define and self-declare, but is a contradiction in terms.
@Andrew
Thank you for your comment. You are constrained by your rigid dogma; others are able to imagine religions which don't use fear, subjugation, punishment and lies to control the behavior of their parishioners. This new Reformation would recognize the great stories as allegories originating from people who lived many hundreds of years ago. The task of religion should be to inspire us to behave morally and promote love and community among all people, not require us to profess belief in ancient folktales, superstitions and prejudices.
2
Such refreshing honesty from a mediator of religion. If there were more Serene Jones’s in the world, people would not be committing atrocities in the name of various gods and science would be universally embraced. Certainly this might be a dawn of religious evolution. Good luck. And if you can speak to an entire population of Trump voters, with particular emphasis on the right wing militia and open their eyes to the reality of being good and Christian, that would make for an even better world in our immediate future.
17
Thank you Serene Jones and Nicholas Kristof. I am not a christian but I am open to the ideas theologically and what they represent to humans. Coincidentally I will be spending Easter with a Jew. Based on my understanding I am a Gentile and near as I can tell this means that I am unclean (metaphorically religiously unclean.) We do not use the word Gentile anymore in everyday speech however there does seem to be an unspoken but clearly implied "are you a member" philosophy.
Jesus rebelled from the Jewish "church" of his day and Martin Luther also rebelled from the church of his day. There are some parallels, both significantly changed the course of history. Perhaps the birth of the Anglican church foreshadowed other authoritarian leaders present today. Eastern Orthodox has the same stories but feels like something very different. Easter may be the time for rebirth, but I am not seeing very much grace and forgiveness in the world even among christians.
6
@Sutter
You will not see much forgiveness among those Christians who are confined to their own small group or tribe and who do not feel their innate connection to those who are different from them and threaten their prejudices or cultures. These are the Christians/believers who, in Jesus' day would have stood on the corners declaring how holy they were compared to the others. They forced their beliefs on others, like a master to a slave.
They were also the ones who killed Jesus. His lessons of loving the sick, the sinners, and the non-Jews threatened the hierarchy of the Temple and its complicit power with Rome.
However, there are increasing numbers of Christians who do forgive and welcome all creatures, and who feel a duty to protect all varieties of life on this planet. Some of us are working quietly and some are more outspoken.
If you look around, you will see us -- finding shelter for the homeless, feeding the hungry, comforting the immigrant, welcoming LGBT persons, giving treatment to the addicted, and working to rid the planet of pollution, to give a few examples.
We seek not to judge but to recognize the shared humanity that Jesus taught and lived. We seek to respond to evil with good -- to live as Jesus did. We are flawed and we fail, and we invite you to accept the mystery of the unconditional love that began with Creation and to treat everyone as if they were Jesus. We believe that how we treat others is how we treat him.
7
Originally, religion and the mythologies of gods undoubtedly began as a way to explain natural phenomena (why does the sun rise in the east and set in the west? What causes thunder?)
Everyone is born an atheist. Belief in god (or gods) among otherwise intelligent, well-educated people is a result of teachings from parents at a very young age.
If there is a god, why are there so many competing religions and theologies?
9
@Jay: I disagree with your statement "everyone is born an atheist" - babies don't have any thoughts for or against any religious ideas at all!
Everyone is born unaware of even being born; all those forms of awareness, knowledge, and belief develop later in life.
I think there is a God, and I don't think God cares how many competing theologies there are - that's a mess that is thoroughly man-made, and which cannot impact God.
3
@L - "You say you're a Christian
Cause God made you.
You say you're a Muslim
Cause god made you.
You say you're a Hindu and the next man a Jew,
Then we all kill each other
Cause God told us to?" - Michael Franti
1
"Everyone is born an atheist. Belief in god (or gods) among otherwise intelligent, well-educated people is a result of teachings from parents at a very young age."
There is a logical problem with that -- you need to explain how (or when) a "Belief in god (or gods)" originated. Or you need to explain why born atheists later become believers. IOW, you have an incomplete analysis.
When you strip away myth from many if not all religions, what is left is love. That is certainly true of Judaism. The foundation of Jewish law is treating others as we wish to be treated, a philosophy that far predated Jesus.
In our very mixed Jewish, Christian, Hindu family, as we talk about our religions, we have always found parallels in the precepts if not in the stories. And the precepts are always about love.
93
@Barbara
But you cannot strip away the myths from these religions - they founder without the foundational truth claims.
In order to teach our children love it is neither necessary nor sufficient to teach them myths or religion - children below the age of understanding either will spontaneously comfort other children who are visibly upset. It's a natural human impulse.
These religions come saddled with literature, which contains both the love and the myths and everything else. And unfortunately the "everything else" includes some almost perfect recipes for enacting societies that promote human misery. The book of Leviticus is the source of the commandment "do not do to another that which would be abhorrent if done to you" which in many ways is a distillation of many of our ethical impulses. It also contains specific instructions on slave-keeping. You cannot separate these two things because you cannot edit the text.
So long as we are saddled with the ancient literature, we are saddled with the myths, as well as the life-destroying nonsense that this literature quite clearly contains.
You want to jettison the myths and just teach love? Easy, ditch the religion.
3
The early exchanges in this piece call to my mind Twain's "War Prayer." It could be read as a sermon.
1
I like these (generally) respectful comments from (mostly) open-minded people.
As an atheist myself, I’m always morbidly fascinated by how other people see and feel about religion, and this article, and the adjoining comments, provide some interesting insights. Thank you.
23
It also surprises people that the Bible didn’t drop down from heaven leather bound with the words of Jesus in red typeface. Rather, it was collated by white men to push a certain message. While I attend a Methodist church here in Houston (I like sacred music), I’ve thought for some time that Jesus was a popular Essene rabbi who heard God’s guidance to urge his fellow Jews to be better people, to not get caught up in rules, but to express that God’s love was for all. Serene Jones expresses a lot of what I believe — God doesn’t cure cancer, the virgin birth was used to keep women down, etc.
This past Thursday, Christians were told that Jesus gave us a new commandment — to love one another as he loves us. Clear, simple and effective.
57
I think Kristof is right that the minister is a Christian philosopher, as is he. There is nothing wrong with that, not everyone receives the gift (although I’m sure some would call it the curse) of faith. I suggest reading Peter Wehner’s column from Good Friday for a Christian religious interpretation of this Easter Season. As he notes, even with faith there is doubt. However, I do not disagree with the minister that a major part of the Easter message is the power of love to conquer evil.
3
I like these conversations. While once religious I would describe myself now as an atheist. I don't believe that there is a being "out there" who created the universe and is concerned with us humans. I look to science to explain the physical universe. Yet I still look to Christ's teachings to guide my personal behaviour and even my political outlook. I like to visit beautiful churches, I light a candle, listen to church music and appreciate its art - all human endeavours to rise above the everyday and celebrate life. I choose Christ's teachings because I grew up a Catholic, but other religions have their good guides to behaviour - I don't mean the prescriptive ritualistic rules, but how to be a good and loving person. So maybe I and the Reverend Jones and Nicholas have something in common. Love is the thing.
215
@Michael Foley Thanks, Michael. You said it for me.
1
"There’s no resurrection story in
Mark, just an empty tomb."
Mark was the first Gospel written. Sounds like its readers thought that something vital was missing, so they added the whole Resurrection story. Very creative, very effective, as history attests.
Has it, overall, made things better or worse, or does it even matter? It's a fact of life. The rest is a mystery, especially the future; but I don't see huge gaps or jumps there, unless I'm just not keen enough to discern it.
Spinoza, the "god-intoxicated atheist," led me out of my confusion: God is Nature, he said. That explains everything to me: It's always been here; it always will be; it runs on its own power, because it created itself. Which, by the way, destroys free will, but no matter: We still feel like we have free will, so it's the best of all possible worlds, as Leibniz argued, no?
Gotta admit, though, despite its positive effects, the Bible has caused a lot of problems and confusion, too. We still dispute what it says.
Maybe the best theology is no theology, as Charles Schulz, creator of "Peanuts," said.
22
@Jim Muncy
You're right Jim. God is nature. In Florida you might not be seeing the 'resurrection of life' but those of us who live up north are surrounded by it. The trees that a month ago were just skeletons now are sprouting leaves and flowers. Our gardens recently barren now are full of daffodils, tulips, hyacinths and crocuses. The grass has been transformed from dormant brown to vivid green. The migrating birds are back. To me spring is a miracle. I never take it for granted.
11
@Jim Muncy
The authentic letters of Paul were written well before any of the Gospels, including Mark’s. Reference to the Resurrection is very clear in these. That said, words don’t seem sufficient to capture the experienced mystery of the Resurrection as a new and unique reality. Easter Faith is simply not a science project. And not philosophy either.
3
Dear Mr. Kristof,
I notice that in this series, you often ask if you are a Christian for your values or not because of your trouble accepting dogma. I’d say that yours is the final say on who you are and how your beliefs align, or not, with anyone else’s.
Your word is as definitive as the next person’s (and it’s pretty conspicuous how varied religious authorities’ conclusions are). That’s what establishing a relationship with the ethereal is all about; finding what resonates with you and leaving aside that which doesn’t hold meaning. It need not be all or nothing.
Have a beautiful Easter and Passover.
7
I find it bizarre that so many adults discuss religion as if god actually exists. For me, it's kind of like debating whether Santa Claus wears underwear or goblins ever sleep. What's the point?
We live in a world where otherwise rational people who typically require incontrovertible facts to make a determination about even relatively minor or inconsequential matters, blithely accept the god delusion merely because that's what was shoved down their throat when they were a guileless, vulnerable child who was utterly reliant on parents for their very survival.
And for any skeptical religionists with independent critical thinking ability, all the sacred texts are just a huge mess with countless contradictions and myriad indications and evidence that they were written by primitive people desperately trying to make sense of a sometimes cruel and often chaotic and random world.
If our cultural norm was to NOT inculcate children into religious dogma until they were 18, there would be no religion. The survival of religion is absolutely dependent on brainwashing children from the moment they're old enough to comprehend language and then repeatedly inundate them throughout childhood until they become obedient and conform to the tenets set forth in the religious texts.
The greatest fear known to mankind is death, and religion is pretty much the only way to avoid it -- or convince yourself you're avoiding it -- and desperate, frightened people will do what they can to assuage fear.
641
@Bill: I couldn't disagree with you more; let me simply say that as I grow older, I understand better that faith is a gift.
I have faith that there is a God, and that faith informs how I live.
To me, the issue of an afterlife vs. oblivion vs. reincarnation is that it's *whatever* it IS - and I don't know what it is, and I don't need to know, and I have no control over what it is.
I only know what I believe, and my belief is personal and private.
35
@Bill Facts contradict your point of religion existence being due only to brainwashing children. Russia is a country where religion was discouraged and in some cases persecuted for at least two generations. And yet religion is very present in today's Russia. It is a glue that binds people together. It helps people to deal with hardships and tragedies in their lives. And it helps governments control their populations.
16
@Bill
Hi Bill. I'm with you about religion, but as to the existence of a "god", there is nuance that should be noted. The idea that "god" exists does not require any particular religious context. I am a skeptic on all matters supernatural, but I am drawn from time to time to Hamlet's "There are more things in heaven and earth,Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
25
I enjoyed the article.
I am surprised that when discussing the events that are hard to "swallow" tthe virgin birth was not more expanded upon. Simple research of the era in which Jesus lived will reveal that virgin birth was attributed to other historical figures, Cesar for one, in an attempt to set them apart as extraordinary.
I enjoy knowing that more and more churches, if not denominations, do not expect you to leave your brain at the door when entering.
Thanks for this interview/conversation
81
@Lynn
No Caesar around the time of Christ claimed to be born from a virgin. Where did you get that? The Julio-Claudian emperors did claim to have descended from a goddess, but she was no virgin (it was Venus).
Perhaps you are confusing virgin birth with the divinity of the Roman emperor? (A concept misunderstood, as it grew out of the traditional Roman religious belief that each person had a "genius"—sort of a guardian spirit—that should be cultivated. But even then, there's a theological difference between the Latin word "divus" used to describe an emperor and the word "deus" or god.)
However, several heroes from Greek myth were said to have been born of a woman who was a virgin when she was impregnated by a god. So virgin birth was not a Christian innovation among the religions of the Greco-Roman world.
@C Wolfe
The concept of a Virgin birth meant until the last few hundreds of years was that the woman never gave birth before. Not that she had never known a man in the physical sense. So all first born were virgin births.
I often wonder if people ever even bother to open a Bible and TRY to understand what it says. John 5: 28-29 (Jesus speaking) -- "Do not be amazed at this for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." Miss Jones looks at ONE of the Gospel accounts that supports her premise and essentially ignores all the other numerous mentions of the resurrection in the rest of the scriptures. As far as "the message of Easter" goes I would challenge her to even find one mention of it in the Bible. If you're going to make up a belief system to suit your own needs rather at least attempt to understand what God instructs through his word, that's your choice I suppose, but why even bother?
15
@Marc
Wasn't Easter preceded by Eostre, the celebration of Spring and new life? It was one of the pagan holidays priests took over and changed to a religious celebration. History gives us the known facts about ancient beliefs and celebrations. I'm fine with the history of a carpenter who joined with others who were seeking a more pure form of worship, rather than the old Roman temples et al controlled by the wealthy. If he existed, he had a gift for the rhetoric of the day; and, he tapped into the lives of the poor: brutish and short. The stories in the Bible were created by men, decades after the life of Jesus; they were passed down in the oral tradition, written down much later.
21
@Linda Miilu - Bunnies and eggs. First Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox.... All so very Christian.
5
@Linda Miilu They probably took bunnies and eggs from Eostre, but Easter was celebrated long before that. And everyone else called it some version of Pascha (from the latin and greek). Like Pasqua in Italy and Spain, so the idea that Easter was copied from Eostre because they sound the same doesn't work.
I agree with all the ideas here. As I think about the idea of God and all the attendant mythology of that human-created concept, I wonder how there could be some deity who somehow chose an obscure planet in one of the billions of galaxies that exist to be the center of the universe. It makes no sense.
On the other hand, whenever you try to explore who we are as individuals, every answer to that question suggests inextricable relations to every other part of the world. This means you cannot look out for yourself without also looking out for that of which we are a part. This is really the central premise of every religion and every enlightened philosophy. You do not need religion to come to this conclusion. And when you do care for the world, your life becomes happier and more fulfilling. That’s how things work. Our greatest gift as self-aware beings is to know that.
86
@John Woods Well said. It was astronomy that led me to disbelief in a being that cared about us. Makes no sense, as you say. And I like your way of expressing how some of the presets of religion can still be useful.
11
@John Woods
Amen. Well said.
1
Thank you for this wonderful conversation and to minister Jones . Religion and religious beliefs are so very personal ; Christian , Muslim , Buddhist , and yes even Atheist . If one ponders some of Christ's teachings , he did espouse love , justice , and mercy in the form of forgiveness . The quiet voice inside all of us . Some chose to ignore , or interpret , the meaning of faith , instead of simply being just , have mercy , and love . The symbols of religious beliefs ; the great Cathedrals , the Sistine chapel , the temples and monasteries of the great Buddha , and Mosques to me symbolize the great works of beauty meant for all men . Faith to me is seeing the Great Cathedral of our world , a miracle in itself and how we all are a part of it .
5