Im sick of hearing americans talking about socialism without realising most first world countries have social democracy as their basis of government. And most first world ciizens have no desire to live in USA.
3
Well, that kicks the legs out from under the table.
What the heck, folks? What the heck?
A human tragedy right in front of us, yet our lives go on smoothly: I'm going to my grandson's soccer practice shortly, just snacked on some chili fries, went to the dentist this morning. And Venezuelan migrants are sleeping in parks on the ground, starving, dying, or selling their bodies at a bordello.
Thoughts and prayers don't seem to be working. Is this the price we pay for being alive in the 21st century? Apparently so: Nobody can do anything, but watch the ship sink.
What the heck.
We already have capitalist socialism in the United States, the government controls the means of production by necessitating various licenses, regulations, regulatory agencies, etc. Venezuela was a capitalist country that failed to benefit enough people to prevent an uprising. Socialism the way Sanders and others are promoting it, is a way to prevent the failure of capitalism by letting more people benefit from it. This is preferable in my opinion to using incarceration and other authoritarian policies.
1
These stories are just as heart wrenching as any I have heard. However, with our current government that won't even help our own citizens, I see little in the way of aid for desperate Venezuelans. Thank goodness Colombia is helping those who can get there.
1
In my humble opinion, the United States (nor a lot of other major power players in the world) don't stick their fingers into other nations pies unless there is money involved. Follow the cash and please, New York Times, do an expose on American interests in Venezuela's oil. Somebody got angry down there for some reason. Maduro? The other guy? Who controls the oil?
One can guess the plan for the future. Another proxy war like Viet Nam, except this one is much closer to the States.
They did it in Cuba, and will do it in Venezuela. The idiot will claim the Monroe Doctrine.
Meanwhile Cuba and Russia already have troops in Venezuela.
I don't know what sort of missiles or RPGs are already in place.
Our closest ones are maybe in Panama.
They will again try to bleed us dry and spill our blood.
Washington may not even know or see it's being played. But one can bet the occupant's response will be the wrong one, full of false bravado.
And now our sons and daughters will have to go through what we did in Viet Nam; with even worse leadership than we had back then.
It has not been that long.
I can see Russia and China salivating already.
1
"My dream is to get to the U.S. We’re dying to go to the U.S."
++++
Meanwhile to hear American liberals tell it America is the worst place ever, especially for non-white people.
9
@Ed American liberals keep saying how much better off people are in Venezuela. We’d all be happier and healthier in Venezuela! We must go now! None of the liberals saying this are going...
8
Hallo? Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist and in doing so sets up mixed capitalism for a fall and its replacement by rampant neo-liberal destruction of the institutions of civilized society. .
3
As Jewish intellectual, Hannah Arendt warned her own German people, "Empire abroad entails tyranny at home".
Get ready for Trump 2020.
3
Kudos to Mr. Kristof for demonstrating the horrors of socialism. The next time someone tries to tell me about our wonderful homegrown "democratic socialists" and other assorted free-market foes, I will be directing them to this article.
10
I fear for these people and I fear for our country, too. But what never gets answered is why the US? Why not Mexico or another Spanish-speaking country where safety and employment may be even closer?
4
As long as this article isn’t insinuating that they come here to the states......I wish them well.
1
Where is the mea culpa by the Times and other left-leaning media for swooning coverage of Chavez's regime BEFORE the current disaster? The handwriting was on the wall looooong before the disaster struck. Yet the American liberal media kept pumping articles supportive of Chavez's socialist way. Shame on you! You failed bigly. See the nytimes article from 2005 below. Truly, 21st century socialism, unfolding now. Starvation, violence and death.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/world/americas/chavez-restyles-venezuela-with-21stcentury-socialism.html?mtrref=www.google.com&gwh=E52366C2FB7E9A5652B87552E504DE32&gwt=pay
8
I think the media really exaggerate things here, just looking for the worst outcomes. It is my understanding that the progressive government of Cuba has sent hundreds of people there to help out. We should wait a bit before really making decisions.
If we had a functioning, visionary democracy here in the USA our nation might be better equipped to assist in both the ending of the suffering and in the eventual "nation building" required to stabilize Venezuela.
13
@NeverSurrender
I wish we had a strong and visionary USA. But we don't anymore.
Old saying: If your house is on fire you can't run out to help your neighbor put out his fire.
2
@Butterfly
Or is that what we tell ourselves so we can sleep well at night?
2
Admit it folks. The Vatican has won it’s war against family planning. And America which is decided to have a smaller families will now pay the price as they flood over the borders. There is one axiom it seems undeniably true: Fecundity + demography = destiny.
5
Democratic "socialists", social-democrats, governed the Country until Chávez arrived as a pirate with fascism, usurpation, militarism, all to the letter. But there is culprit here not in real social-democracy, but in the thousands of the some of the so called "Leftists" here in the USA, and in Britain, like Corbyn, that backed the dictatorship all the way and continue to do so. Those are immoral individuals and are committed to destroy democracy at the first chance. I am from the democratic Left and I am appalled, I want to vomit.
6
@Concerned Citizen. Don’t forget Bernie $anders! He claimed that the American Dream is more likely to be realized in Venezuela than America! That statement alone disqualifies him from office!
8
@Larry Bernie said in a video I watched that Chavez was a "crazy communist dictator". I am talking about other people, out there, here in the USA, frustrated communists , and also trolls from Russia. But Corbyn from Britain is despicable.
The right-wing sneering about socialism is pretty amazing, given that Trump’s basically a Maduro handing everything to the wealthiest.
And of course, himself.
Chavez was nuts, Maduro’s just another greedhead, but at least there was some effort to help those who needed it most.
3
This is so horrible to consider that I barely know where to begin. Perhaps we should offer Maduro a dictator's out like Papa Doc, the Shah, or any of the other corrupt African leaders with millions or more of their people's money stashed in illegal bank accounts. We should also be offering asylum or TPS to people in crisis. Imagine having to leave your home to live on a park bench in another country, to be forced to give birth because you can't afford birth control, or worse for your children to die from starvation or lack of basic medical supplies? It seems to be in vogue to selfishly hate immigrants and the poor, but most of us would not be in the United States or a land where we have the opportunity to live in relative safety and economic opportunity without our immigrant parents, grandparents, and ancestors. Hypocrisy aside, help for Venezuelans now may prevent a larger exodus later. Really tired of the Republican do-nothing just-be-cruel inability to solve real problems. Thank you, Mr. Kristof, for your humane, specific reporting.
33
@Dr. Conde
Dr. Conde: Well said! And yes, Mr. Kristof, we do appreciate your reporting so very much. You have a heart and it shows in your writing.
15
We spend tons of money on military aircraft. We have the capability to airdrop supplies within the country, with or without their permission. I think it's what we should be doing. We can drop the goods from a high enough altitude that the people and planes are safe. We can set the chutes to deploy when the packages are near enough to the ground.
11
The U.S. should stay out of Venezuela. And refugees should stay in the first safe country, Spanish speaking and near by. This tragedy has a long way to go - Think Somalia, maybe worse.
14
If isolated cases of climate change like what we saw a couple years ago in Syria, and what we see now in Central and South America can cause so much disruption and misery, imagine what we will see when it really gets bad.
When 80% of humanity becomes disrupted from their coastal homes the refugee crises will overwhelm the entire civilized world, not just the developing world.
My heart goes out to all those people who are victimized by the climate, then their own governments, and then by ours.
10
@Bob Laughlin. Except for the fact that there is zero evidence that “climate change” has anything to do with any of the situations you mention. It’s completely irrelevant. We were promised 1 billion climate refugees by 2010, the actual number was zero. It’s only the economic climate disaster created by socialism that is relevant here
12
‘Scuse my notes from reality, but in fact one of the factors that kicked off the Syria horror was dought, secondary to climate change, that forced hundreds of thousands off farms and into cities.
Don’t yell at me, yell at CIA: that’s their assessment.
As for Venezuela, that’s not global warming. That there is human stupidity, in vibrant action.
This time, the political form it took is socialist. But before you get all prideful, we are currently afflicted with an ignorant, greedy fool of a President who is careening along with policies that sell our environment off to corporations, piece by piece.
It’s not one bit better than Venezuela. We just have more to ruin.
10
@Bob Laughlin
Well stated, Bob. There will be tens of millions migrating from affected areas within a couple decades. That will essentially be the end of anyone's delusion of "normalcy".
3
"I used to support [former Venezuelan strongman Hugo] Chávez. But then under Maduro, everything became all screwed up."
It may appear so, but the foundations for the current collapse were built by Chávez. While oil production and prices were flying high the total mismanagement was camouflaged by the inflow of money.
60
@G.S.
You *are* aware of the enormous humanitarian gains under Hugo Chavez -- reductions in poverty, hunger, illiteracy without parallel in the region or in the preceding centuries of oligarchic rule in Venezuela?
Of course, the view from "Dutchess(?) County" may be different. We Americans understand these things so much better than the natives.
17
@jrd false, false, no "humanitarian gains " but the utter destruction of a Country and of democracy. Chávez dismantled the Venezuelan economy, with a hammer, when he had to build urgently, and he knew it.
9
And what is it that you think Trump’s doing but that, pray tell?
Only diff I see is that the irresponsible giveaways go to the wealthiest rather than the poor.
5
How many "pro life" identified people are stepping in to help these people? Sending doctors and supplies to keep women and their sacred passenger infants from dying? (crickets)
7
Read this, and really look at the photos. This is the collapse of an entire Country, starting slowly, years ago. It’s now a runaway Train, and the poor are the first Victims, the first to starve, the first to sicken and Die. For all but the Rich, there are only two choices : Flee, or surrender and possibly Die.
Watch, and Learn. Think it can’t happen here ?
Think again.
118
@Phyliss Dalmatian. And the collapse started with socialism
8
@Phyliss Dalmatian
Your comment made me shudder.
Also,
Your capitalization is artful.
5
@Phyliss Dalmatian, Where do we run to?
1
I am so grateful for the attitude of most Colombians about Venezuelans. There are six families selling candy on the foot bridge near our home, I've never seen the families leave empty-handed. Colombians give them warm clothing (Bogotá is quite chilly, most Venezuelans come from a hot climate), blankets, groceries, coins and baby diapers. Pregnant women receive medical care before and after delivery, Venezuelan children are given free vaccines -- another service the Venezuelan government has not provided. Colombia, a country of 45 million, has absorbed over a million Venezuelans, this should be an example to wealthy countries which reject desperate immigrants.
186
@Kathleen. Nice to hear that Columbia is treating Venezuelans with dignity and respect a lesson for my country. I have many fond memories of trips to Bogotá, Colombians are some of the most fun people I have shared a beer with over my decades of wandering planet earth.
14
@Kathleen
Thank goodness Colombians are treating Venezuelans with dignity as much as possible. I wish my country were doing that for refugees who try to come here.
This is why it's almost impossible to find Venezuelans in the protests to stay out of Venezuela. It is a crime against humanity to ignore the plight of these people. It's not very "progressive."
2
Just curious: What would be an example of people dying "necessarily?"
2
Old age, incurable diseases are some examples.
1
There are answers to some of these issues. At this point with Trump in charge America is not one of them. I wouldn't invite a friend from another country to the United States at this point. However, our government could attempt to send food, medicine, and other help to some of these countries. If we don't want refugees pounding on our door we need to provide them with reasons to stay in their countries. So far we haven't done either.
The problems Venezuela is facing are man made. Therefore humans can help. History suggests that quite often greed is the problem. The greed of the richest impoverishes others particularly when it's unchecked by the government. It doesn't matter what sort of government people establish in the end as long as it meets every citizen's needs for food, shelter, medicine, education, safety, etc. Governments are supposed to care for their citizens, not turn on them. Whether one is a believer in communism, capitalism, or socialism the needs are the same. Tyranny and corruption fail because of greed and overreach.
We can't solve Venezuela's problems for them. They have to do that themselves. Perhaps we can stabilize things. Or perhaps their neighbors can help too. There are no easy answers because there are countries.
2
We were once known as a country of warm compassion. Now we are perceived as a nation of cold disregard. Sad. And how very tragic for countless human lives.
How utterly ironic that the Golden Rule itself is implacably given the cold shoulder by an administration which unabashedly panders to the religious right and its “absolute” moral principles. Based on their attitudes toward the ever-evolving catastrophe in Venezuela (not to mention Yemen), one can only assume that, for Trump and the many MAGA’ites among the Christian right, ethics is absolute only when not confronted by political inconvenience.
4
Pete Buttigieg recently said "capitalism has failed a lot of people". How many people has socialism failed... or killed?
8
@C
Unlike capitalism, socialism hasn't killed anyone intentionally.
4
@C This is not socialism. This is a corrupt government. Don't confuse the two.
7
@hen3ry. Venezuela isn’t socialist? Too bad we can’t feed the Venezuelans starving in their socialist workers paradise with the pretzels socialists twist themselves into defending socialism and it’s perfect record of failure
2
So, Nick -- you're urging the Trump administration to immediately lift the sanctions, as the first crucial step in reducing the misery?
And at the same time you're also promoting the overthrow of the malign pro-U.S. governments of Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala, for crimes against humanity and the fundamental failure to protect their own citizens not only from gangs, but from police and the army?
Oh.....
3
From Venezuela straight to a closed border and having to endure everything in between.
What a disgrace we’ve become in the eyes of the world.
Lest we forget:
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.”
I’ve never been anything less than proud to be a US citizen... until now.
2
Venezuela appears to be the result of bad governance but I fear that one result of climate change will be the creation of food migrants---folks can find neither food nor water in their native countries. They will surely try to go elsewhere. I know I would. And what then? Are we going to sit there and watch human beings die of thirst and hunger? Are we going to do anything to mitigate the effects of climate change? Or are we going to militarize borders so that they can't get in and prayer that somehow we will be exempt from what is happening to the rest of the planet?
Those poor people. What they write about is too horrible to even think about. We in America should consider ourselves so very blessed to live in this great country, and I do, even though my present circumstances are not good (my husband has had no income for the past 4 years, while awaiting his SSA/DIS and we are surviving on my small income where I work at a local plumbing/heating store and we have no health insurance) yet I know, I KNOW . . . that I am so very fortunate to have a roof over my head, food in my cupboards and clothes on my back. I pray for these poor people. Surely, our government could find some way to help them. I can't help but believe money for a wall would be better spent on humanitarian efforts, such as helping the destitute, such as these, and much more Biblical.
1
Again I ask all of my left leaning friends to tell me precisely why the raft route from Cuba to Miami is one way. Odd how free market economics are vilified on these pages while those realizing the socialist dream have a different story to tell. If you want enlightenment, try to stay off the fainting couch worrying about income inequality and start thinking about what can be done to eliminate poverty. Bernie always promises Scandinavia but he, like every pied piper before him, delivers the human misery these distraught people in Venezuela suffer from daily.
7
Nothing exists in a vacuum. Venezuela and its people have been punished by the big money interests who wanted the oil, not by its own government. Hugo wanted that oil money to go to the people of Venezuela- instead, the oil barons and the American profiteers took it, and want to take more. What they need is a new Che.
3
Lift your immoral sanctions against Venezuela (and the rest of the world) and l would wager a bet that they will be ok.
4
So many want to come to the US. They need to stay in V and help overthrow Maduro.
Regime change in Venezuela is on the menu, so who better than Nick Krystof to write an article designed to appeal to the emotions.
Nick did you vet any of these stories of hardship? Or were you just spoon fed them?
You may call me a cynic, but I can remember the "babies thrown from incubators onto the cold stone floor". hoax that was used for the first Iraq war. This article appears to be a variation on that.
4
@Spender. CGB
I was in Kuwait in April/May of 1991. What I saw with my own two eyes; All communication towers destroyed, all ambulances gone, all dialysis machines gone, incubators too. Not to mention all the people who lost feet, legs and lives from stepping on land mines planted by Iraq. Oh, those oil well fires were not CGI. They were real and smelly and dangerous. What we heard; thousands of women raped, thousands of men beaten and hundreds killed. Homes trashed for the hell of it. Every decent, drivable vehicle taken.
And remember, we did not invade Iraq then, we merely freed Kuwait. The real problem started over a decade later when we invaded Iraq for no good reason.
7
@Mark
"The girl, whose testimony helped build support for the Persian Gulf war, was identified only as "Nayirah," supposedly to protect family members still in Kuwait. Another piece of information was also withheld: that she is not just some Kuwaiti but the daughter of the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the U.S."
"How did the girl's testimony come about? It was arranged by the big public relations firm of Hill & Knowlton on behalf of a client, the Kuwaiti-sponsored Citizens for a Free Kuwait, which was then pressing Congress for military intervention. Mr. Lantos knew the girl's identity but concealed it from the public and from the other caucus co-chairman, Representative John E. Porter of Illinois."
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/15/opinion/deception-on-capitol-hill.html
From your post "What we heard" Does that fall under hearsay?
2
@Spender. CGB
You are referring to the Nayirah story, which has now become a textbook example of using hoaxes as wartime propaganda to fool newspapers.
Kuwait's PR firm recommended that atrocity stories would be the most effective way to win support for a US invasion of Iraq, so "Nayirah," actually the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter, testified falsely before congress that she had witnessed Iraqi soldiers in a Kuwaiti hospital throw babies out of incubators to die, while stealing hospital equipment.
"Remember Nayirah, Witness for Kuwait?" https://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/06/opinion/remember-nayirah-witness-for-kuwait.html
Iraq actually did have an arguable claim against the Kuwaiti government, which is that they were extracting oil out of oil fields that belongs to Iraq.
In reference to Mark F's comment below, we have no way of knowing who you are, or questioning you further, or finding out whether you were taken in by Kuwaiti atrocity stories like everyone else. What did you do to check the accuracy of "What we heard"?
2
How many times does this socialist experiment have to be run? How many corpses have to be stacked up and how much misery created? Just because something sounds good on paper???
Yes, we can expand the social safety net but to pay for that, we need free markets. This is insanity.
6
@Tim
The problem isn't socialism. The problem is corruption, just like right here in good old capitalist USA!
2
@Mark F. The problem is socialism. Socialism always fails. Socialism always kills. Zero exceptions
4
The word socialism is conspicuously absent from this column.
6
And the Democrats want this here. Oh I know.... they all say American socialism will be different. More fair & just. Just remember - there’s no being just a little pregnant.
4
President Trump’s efforts to help the Venezuelan people are inspiring and overdue. President Trump’s actions demonstrate his support for the people of Venezuela. If President Trump wanted to kill Venezuelans he’d impose socialism on them
3
@Larry
??? President Trump is as corrupt as Maduro.
@Mark F. President Trump was just investigated by an army of Trump-hating Hillary lovers with unlimited time, unlimited budget, unlimited personnel, and unlimited scope. They couldn’t find even a shred of a hint of any wrongdoing. Could Hillary or any Democrat survive such a witch-hunt? No!!
1
Sadly, this crisis, largely derived from socialist policies and ideas, won't prevent those same ideas and policies to be dismissed from future political processes elsewhere in the region. In short, the greatest tragedy is that the region does not seem to be learning the key lessons from venezuela's tragic collapse.
5
The problems in Venezuela, like those all over the world, are complex. No one thing "caused" what's happening there and no one thing can "fix" it. Human beings -- no matter what form of government and societies we create, support and live under -- are flawed and sometimes selfish. I know in my mind that the U.S. can't and shouldn't have to solve everything and allow every poor and suffering person to live here. But when confronted with individual stories of suffering, my heart and soul yearn to help. If I'm honest I'll admit that I read some articles and contribute to some charities, but soon turn my attentions back to my own (comparatively minor) issues again. The answers, I guess, have to be as multifaceted and long term as the problems, and they'll too be imperfect. Just like we are.
3
@A woman One thing caused this, socialism.
4
It's heartbreaking to read about the breakdown of Venezuelan society. What's nearly as bad is looking at our own country's leadership and how it has made it so much worse there.
I am weary beyond measure witnessing the continual overuse of the abusive management style known as "The beatings will continue until morale improves." Leading with fear stunts our advancement and reduces how much we will help our neighbors.
8
"because Trump is hostile to the government there, some liberals are more sympathetic to it than they might otherwise be." Nicholas this seems pretty simplistic and inaccurate. The US government has been destabilizing the Venezuelan Government through economic warfare for years. Yesterday's NYT headline says it all "New US Sanctions on Venezuela Aim to Choke Off Government's Finances" Our US Government has been exacerbating the humanitarian crisis because of Corporate OIL Interests, including the Koch Brothers who own refineries specifically for EXTRA HEAVY CRUDE.
17
One comment pointed out the population crisis in Venezuela -- 32 million versus 5 million 70 years ago. People sometimes pontificate about global warming but less so about global population growth. The impending colossal famine predicted by Malthus c. 1800 -- in an age of both famine and population growth has yet to occur -- altho species other than the human are in many cases extinct or so becoming.
We are well aware that people migrate for economic reasons... and yes humanitarian aid and perhaps an embargo on weapons would suit in many cases. I will be dead before wide-spread famine and flooding and drought strike -- I hope... Will 2040/2050 be major turning points?? Up to the young uns.
6
@Auntie Mame, will you live long enough to vote trump out of office next year? The 'young uns' you talk about will be the imprisoned dissenters of tomorrow if you and I just sit back and shrug.
"If the patient doesn’t supply the kit, she dies. Every day you see people dying unnecessarily."
We live lives of comfort in the United States. We think we are noble. We think we are civilized. How we respond to those in the greatest need defines us. A visitor to our planet would quickly see us for what we are. We are barbaric. We are exposed.
12
@Blue Moon I am a visitor to your planet, and yes, I see who you are. Big brains, microscopic compassion. Soon, the bacteria will inherit your planet, and no trace of other life forms will be left, except for the monstrous inanimate relics you’ve left here. When I return to the Home World, that’s exactly what my ethnographic analysis will say.
1
In conditions such as these, the people interviewed still willingly brought children into the world!? I cannot understand that. They complain that birth control was unavailable and/or too expensive. So they bring a CHILD into the world!? A CHILD! Sorry. No sympathy for the parents. Sure, I realize there are biological/chemical needs for sexual activity. But, those needs can be satisfied in many ways (with or without a partner) that do not involve creating a child... a child you've now condemned to live in such misery.
10
@ABC123 "No sympathy for the parents".
Well, you got that point across.
1
@ABC123 - You condemn people who have nothing for sharing the one small bit of comfort and beauty they still have.
The one sure way to cut back family size is to give people the means to have economic stability.
@ABC123, Let's talk religion that insists women don't deserve birth control. You'll stop baby-making by preaching? You might as well insist that the trees and all nature stop reproducing. But practically speaking, birth control options really would make a huge difference, but folks like you insist that women can't be trusted to NOT have babies every single time a man wants sex. Yes, I'll go that far. It's men that control most of this, by denying women clinics, low cost contraception and shaming their behavior while men take zero responsibility. Women generally WON'T go find someone to impregnate them while they struggle in poverty.
The Trump administration, unlike prior US governments seeking to undermine Venezuela and other Latin American countries, is working its dubious deeds relatively out in the open, it is because in the intervening years those exercising power have decided they no longer need to dissemble, since the public (and, worse yet, the press) has done absolutely nothing about the overt US-orchestrated coups in countries like Ukraine and Libya (or the failed one in Syria), and has, moreover, accepted without question all the most blatant lies told about these events.
The US government has finally accepted George Kennan's advice. To heck with talk of democracy and freedom. We will take what we want by force.
The massive drop in oil prices was deliberate and created with the help of the most despicable regime and USA ally the terrorist state Saudi Arabia.Along with the USA sanctions is the equivalent of economic terrorism.
Our criminal leaders don’t even pretend anymore and they use the very same play book over and over.
( fill in the blank) is a bad guy and the people of ( fill in the blank) are suffering blah blah blah ad nauseam.
And all of it not to help the people but to STEAL their resources and destroy their economy and create enemies that the USA has to defend against.
America is an empire. It uses militarism and ideological hegemony to enforce its market based ideology of profit and unregulated growth above all else.
You won’t read anything about that on these pages, of course.
11
@Chris - You can, indeed, find similar fact and analysis in the NYT if you read the writers and columnists who have their eyes open but that also means readers need open eyes and minds as well.
2
Really? Please do tell - which NYT writer has unequivocally come out against American Imperialism in general and against overthrowing the Maduro government in particular ?
3
@Chris
Maduro is a brutal dictator. Venezuela’s oil industry failed because it was taken over by an incompetent government and political appointees with no knowledge of or ability to run a large energy corporation were placed in charge. The profits from the oil venture were used to prop up the Chavez regime, and subsidize the ill advised government programs put in place. The profits were also used to import necessities into the country as the other government controlled industries, like farming, failed. The was no investment back into the state oil endeavor (pdvsa) to maintain its viability. By 2017, the country with the largest proven oil reserves was unable to produce oil. This is due to failure and malfeasance over many years as the oil industry was slowly bled to death by Chavez and his incompetent cronies. Venezuela’s failure is a failure of socialism and the inability of the state to control industry effectively. Venezuela’s demise isn’t not a function American intervention. It is the failure of socialism which has been repeatedly born out through history.
3
US sanctions impact is approaching pre Iraq invasion humanitarian disaster levels. Secretary Albright infamously stated during a 60 Minutes interview the estimated 500,000 Iraqi children who died due to lack of medical supplies and other necessites due to US sanctions was "worth it" and "a price" she was "willing to pay." (It's on Youtube look it up.) Please don't do this again.
9
The US is doing economic siege warfare, illegal under the UN, blacking incoming goods and freezing their bank accounts.
UN Investigator: Alfred de Zayas:
“There was no “humanitarian crisis”, as confirmed to me by FAO and CEPAL // nothing to compare with Gaza, Yemen, Syria, Somalia, Central AfricanRepublic, etc. But indeed there was scarcity of foods and medicines. The situation has gotten much worse since Dec. 2017 because of Trumps sanctions and the economic and financial blockade.”
The Koch Brothers refinery can only refine heavy oil like from Venezuela, in Texas, that is a big reason why the US wants to overthrow them so they can steal it.
The US still supplying air support and weapons to the Saudis in Yemen, the largest humanitarian disaster in history where over 30 millions starving.
6
The lesson is that socialism always fails. Always.
8
@Larry, what a hoot! As if corruption, theft of national resources and personal enrichment of leaders is a province of socialism! Please tell that to Sweden and Finland, those Democratic-Socialist failures! FOX says hate, so you do.
trump is well on his way to dismantling the U.S. just like Venezuela's greedy and corrupt president. Marxists, capitalists, unaffiliated dictators, theocracies...I can think of CURRENT examples of these ideologies failing badly.
You are dozing in the comfy blanket of us/them thinking, where the U.S.A. no longer leads, but also won't look for ideas anywhere; just sneering insults.
Corruption and greed always fails. Always.
1
@Larry
A half a million people are living in cars or in tents along the road, millions more have no access to medical care, and around 16 million children are faced with serious hunger issues in the course of a year.
Venezuela....no. It is the amazing capitalist paradise called the United States of America.
2
Incredibly, another story in the New York Times about the privations in Venezuela that manages to omit the taboo word at the heart of their despair: socialism. Venezuela is what the "equal sharing of misery" looks like.
8
As long as US buy cocain which comming from Venezuella the and the Venezuellian army support the trade, including wealthy elite in Venezuella no change will occur.
Venezuela is suffering due to their reliance on oil revenues, which collapsed in 2015. Any government would have failed to provide an alternative to the oil money. The U. S. sanctions are costing Venezuela $30 million a day, which would certainly alleviate a lot of the suffering. Maduro is still supported by over a million Venezuelans, regardless of the problems, because they lived under the alternative for many years, and it was no better for them.
4
@Cary Clark. Funny how socialist Venezuela is the only oil producing country whose economy collapsed with falling oil prices. Your second sentence is wrong, every country (and company) except socialist Venezuela provided an alternative to the oil money
1
This is really tragic. However, tragedies occur all over the world each day. It may be tragic, but it is not our problem. America should be looking out for Americans.
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@Eli Believe it or not we're all in this together. One big rock spinning through space.
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@Eli Looking out for Americans and helping where we can in the wider world are only mutually exclusive in the minds of small minded zero-sum republicans.
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The U.S. policy towards Venezuela interferes with a sovereign goverment and should cease. But as usual our foriegn affairs is fodder for our domestic politics. Instead of increasing humanitarian assistance, the rational response, this article is likely to promote wider sanctions and probably military aggression. The military response is our go to policy when there are problems in countries we don't like. It is also the policy to those we do except it is in the nature of selling or giving arms (see Saudi Arabia and Israel). Both these policies have a lobby in the military industrial complex.
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@Dan. In other words, the socialists in Venezuela have destroyed their economy, run out of other people’s money and now expect the US to prop up the failed socialist regime with food, medicine, clothing, etc. Not happening!
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This is why the US should offer as much humanitarian aid as possible if we want the people to see that its government must be changed.
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Sean Penn and Danny Glover are noticeably silent. They were very supportive of Chavez. Why doesn't AOC congratulate Maduro for reducing the use of refined fossil fuels? How is that government run healthcare working Bernie? How is your plan superior?
At least the poor devils in Cuba aren't starving.
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@Mike. AOC will take a jet and a limousine to a 5 star restaurant order a 10 course steak dinner, then lecture the Venezuelans that their consumption of 1 cat per month is destroying the planet!
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@Mike
Tragedies know no state boundaries and common sense is not common.
When I served in the US Navy in 1994-95 I was posted to GITMO. There I met a man facing a difficult choice. Food was very scarce in Cuba at the time. He could starve in about 6 weeks as he saw Cubans who were HIV positive quarantined from the rest of the population and fed. He chose to infect himself with HIV to eat and live another ten years, albeit with illness.
Without a doubt, some poor devils in Cuba were then and are now starving.
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@Douglas McNeill
Friend of mine just came back from Cuba. He said that he didn't see any fat people on the streets. But nobody was starving.
There is a saying that is sad but generally true: “people get the government they deserve.” Venezuelans repeatedly voted for Chavez - in fact, when a coup attempted to topple him, it failed because of his popular support. His handpicked successor Maduro won in what seemed fair elections after Chavez died. The people have spoken: they chose their fate.
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@Ernesto I am also people, I did not choose Chávez repeatedly, nor Maduro. Many, and do please review the numbers, did not vote for him, repeatedly. Shall they too suffer famine and violence? I thought democracy was about liberty, not fate. It is this kind of reductionist and simplified thinking, from even the brightest minds, that criminals and demagogues all too well. It is our very lack of compassion and, then again, our lack of deep reasoned foresight and a better understanding of our dues as local and global citizens, that once and again serve tyrants, as they use democracy as a voting machine that produces totalitarianism. If the fate of under educated people is to die as consequence of not one, but government -and society in general- lack of investment in better education, both public, and private-, then we should all share the fate of those destroyed by our omissions from a long, long time ago, regardless of our ideological stance or political posture.
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Ernesto, you"have spoken." Without compassion. Days of Easter having begun. People, all of us, are flawed in a range of ways.Have you never not been aware when you should have been? Looked and not seen? Have you never chosen to be willfully blind about what IS, that should never BE?Have you ever chosen neither to hear nor to listen to the experienced existential pains of another-kin, ken or stranger? Existing all around each of US, when choosing to pay attention. Have you ever chosen neither to know nor to understand the dimensions of the WE-THEY violating-culture which each of US enables? In various ways? Complacent or complicit. Daily. Allowing, fostering, harmful words, deeds, as dehumanized "the other(s)" are created. Selected. Targetted. You judge with the certainty that your perception and way is THE way. How often have you been personally accountable for ALL of your words, voiced and written? For your done-deeds? Accountable for words not voiced or written by you which were needed in order to achieve someone's wellbeing? For plans neither made, nor implemented, which would have made a difference in someone's life that could result in a much needed sustainable difference? People don't choose their "fate." WE try to do the best that each of US can given who we are. Who we are not. Who we will never be. Who we may yet become.As we "Fail better" in life's complex trek and challenges. Your harsh sentence overlooks reality's uncertainties. Unpredictabilities. Randomness.
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@Ernesto Maduro was elected by nobody. He and henchmen are illegitimate.
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Here is an article that may be relevant to Trump's sanctions. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/08/world/americas/venezuela-sanctions-maduro.html
This Feb 8, 2019 NYT article shows that Trump and his accomplices in the U.S. government are complicit in exacerbating the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela.
The commenters supporting Trump's policies are ethically compromised, led by an overwhelming desire to get rid of Nicolás Maduro's government, hence approving harming innocents now for a goal of a better future.
The fundamental problem is ethical; the ends don't justify unethical means.
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@Robin It is an argument I have heard many times before. And many times before I have heard the same uncomfortable answer: the lives lost in an effort to topple Maduro´s regime may be less more than the lives lost if he remains in power. I do not agree with such cruel math when assessing the issue, yet it does raise the same ethical concern, but the other way around. The end still doesn´t justify the means, but it casts certain ambiguity for both postures, those that defend and those that attack the sanctions. That, to me, is not the issue. Because it only makes people ignore their responsibility, as Venezuelans, and as civilians from other nations, in a tragic situation that affects an entire continent. Maduro´s and Trump´s tug of war has a severe impact on society. Only a strong a society could avoid such geopolitical traps and its devastating consequences. It is the effort not done by civil society, beyond governments, in the name of the life of other civilians, what to me seems quite unethical and undemocratic. A quick and simple study of Venezuelan economy during the last 20 years would show that one cannot blame sanctions for the government´s incapacity to help it´s people.
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@Eduardo
A quick and simple study of the Venezuelan economy would show that (a) Chavez inherited a weak economy in 1998 when elected; (2) the 'strike' initiated by PDVSA oil company managers in 2002 crippled the economy that had been dependent on oil sales since the 1940s; (3) after the 'strike' ended the economy began to rebound and the economic and social indicators improved with Venezuela's wealth being distributed much more evenly.
See 'Venezuelan Economic and Social Performance Under Hugo Chávez, in Graphs', http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog/venezuelan-economic-and-social-performance-under-hugo-chavez-in-graphs.
Clearly, mistakes were made regarding the economy and not planning for the future free fall in the price of oil in 2015, and corruption continued to occur in some business-government transactions. These problems had happened under previous AD, COPEI and military regimes. The difference, however, is that those governments did not face a hostile US administration that imposed draconian economic sanctions.
The current sanctions are doing exactly what they are intended to do - insure the Venezuelan economy will fail and it's people will suffer.
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@J Albers
Yes there was a lot of corruption in the AD and COPEI regimes. But the country progressed nonetheless. Most of this improvement of quality of living was enjoyed by the mass of the population. Very humble people were able to study free at the university and become well off professionnals. Under Chavez Venezuela received the largest bonanza of oil revenues that Venezuela has evern known. So there is no excuse for the present dire state of Venezuela. I would call the Chavez governments the biggest rip off in history. Don't blame the present tremendous incompetence and corruption on events more than 15 years ago. US sanctions have only recently been aimed at the country as a whole. I live and suffer in Venezuela but Trump and co at least offer us some hope of eventual change.
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Here is an article that may be relevant to Trump's sanctions. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/08/world/americas/venezuela-sanctions-maduro.html
This Feb 8, 2019 NYT article shows that Trump and his accomplices in the U.S. government are complicit in exacerbating the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela.
The commenters supporting Trump's policies are ethically compromised, led by an overwhelming desire to get rid of Nicolás Maduro's government, hence approving harming innocents now for a goal of a better future.
The fundamental problem is ethical; the ends don't justify unethical means.
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This is more of the same. Venezuela, like Central America, suffers from several problems but the one that never gets talked about is the most glaring one. In 1950, the population was ~5 million. It is now 32 million. Granted, incompetent governments never help, but if it was closer to the u.s. they would (and may yet) be caravaning here. The basic fact that a countries population can go up 6 x in 2 generations needs to sink in. We had better start talking about human numbers and their effect on the planet, economies and the danger to the future that they present and how we're are going to deal with it or everything else we do will be meaningless.
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@Al
I agree. Unfortunately, it's been many years since we heard even a squeak from the NYT's opinion columnists on this, let alone from the Editorial Board.
To be fair, the NYT does still publish outside opinions on this topic from time to time, but you gotta hunt for them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/opinion/sunday/remember-the-population-bomb-its-still-ticking.html
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@Al Agree 100% with you, Al. But two of the women in this piece had no available birth control. The conversation should begin there.
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@Joy. Neither side in this country, or anywhere else really (especially the press) will even whisper about population and its effect on the planet and sustainability. The "green new deal" is worthless posturing if it doesn't include a position on human population. We should start here in the u.s. by encouraging 2 child families (and by necessity vastly reducing immigration) and moving toward an economy that is truly sustainable longterm, not the boom and bust Ponzi scheme that we glorify now. It will involve sacrifice and longterm thinking, other principles that don't get much traction. It will also involve, by necessity, spending a lot of money helping the rest of the world move in the same direction thru aid. We are all in this together and time is running out. The planet is over full and moving people around won't do anything but create uniform misery. The numbers are there for all to see and PC blinders won't save us.
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Let Russia fix Venezuela. No AMERICAN WELFARE for Venezuela. America is much too overburdened with all the unfinished wars we have all over the globe. Just look at all the resulting inflation we have from our regime change and nation building projects! Gas is over $4/ gallon, and wages hardly budge and if they do they don't keep up with rising rent, housing, insurance, food, medicine, insurance, etc etc etc/...
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@xzr56
Venezuela is another of the US’ wars. Economic and humanitarian aid to them and many of the other targets of US imperialism would be the less expensive, more moral choice that we probably won’t make.
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@xzr56
Considering the comments in this article, I don't think anybody in the U.S. can complain about a had life. I hope you're being sarcastic/satirical...
Maduro might be bad, even terrible, but sanctions aren't hurting him one bit, they are hurting the Venezuelan people. Let's not forget, Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, so it's no surprise that the US is employing mafioso tactics in yet another effort to control another country's resources, and has no qualms about destroying it or killing innocent people, and blaming it on someone else. Just as in Syria, which rebuffed John Kerry's demand to allow US oil companies to run a gas pipeline across the country, and paid a huge price, Venezuela is paying the price for not cooperating. Yeah, Maduro might be bad, but the US isn't helping...quite the opposite, actually. It's working on behalf of big oil, yet again.
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@Karekin You are utterly wrong. The Venezuelan tragedy has 20 years in the making. It’s called totalitarianism and socialism. Democracy and institutions disappeared first. With the rule of law gone, expropriation of private property came next. Result is misery and this near apocalypsis. The US sanctions only have been in place for a couple of weeks. And if you are worried about the oil, you must be relieved it’s in the safe hands of Russia and China.
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@Karekin, They are working slowly.
So Venezuelans are suffering from an "absence of food, electricity and hospitals with basic supplies"?
Guess what, Americans are suffering too:
According to the USDA, over 40 Million Americans, including over 13 Million children, face hunger on a regular basis;
More than 900,000 homes in Texas had their electricity cut off last summer due to unpaid bills; in California, it was 714,000 homes; and
Over 30 Million Americans are uninsured, and over 45 Million Americans can't afford their prescriptions.
So, before we go invade another country to alleviate their suffering, how about we first prove we can alleviate the suffering right here in America?
Or should all these Americans flee to Colombia too??
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@GeoJaneiro It's not a lot better in Detroit. The US hospitals are great if you can afford to get there, if you can pay $3000 a day to stay there. People sell their food stamps to pay bills and then go hungry. People here are really struggling.
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@GeoJaneiro. To compare the suffering of a tiny minority of Americans to that of the vast majority of Venezuelans is laughable
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@GeoJaneiro
Our poor and disadvantaged shouldn't flee the country, they should vote and vote Democratic. Their suffering is unnecessary, but it is the result of the relentless Republican wealth transfer to less than 1% of the country and deliberate destruction of our social support systems. And because of the Republicans' racism and misogyny. We need an American Spring, delivered in 2020.
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Thank you Mr Kristof for giving voice to the Venezuelans. There are million of stories like these, all of them tragic in some way. Like that of my mother, who had to flee Venezuela at 83, leaving everything behind. Or my 90 year-old father-in-law, who is blind and had refused to leave his Caracas home, despite having all 5 children living somewhere outside Venezuela. Until there was no electricity or water in Caracas, making his daily living simply unsustainable. He left Caracas now - he is safe but utterly depressed. Venezuelans can tell you one thing or two about socialism. It’s not pretty.
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@Angeleno:
You can call what's going on in Venezuela many things. "Socialism" is not one of them. No, I am not a socialist.
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So we see that US sanctions work. They cause suffering, as for example medicines can't be purchased.
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Are you a communist, @MarkTomason? I genuinely don't mean that in any kind of offensive way. I often wonder if there are still some genuine Marxists among us. I've read many of your posts over the years and haven't been able to pin them quite down, but if you are a genuine old-school Communist I think they might make sense.
I spent several days in Venezuela in 1996 long before any US sanctions. It was a squalor-filled slum then. Place blame where it belongs - on socialism.
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@Mark Thomason
They cannot afford them because Socialism destroyed the economy.
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I think Trump (except for his typical bluster) is basically correct in his anti-Maduro Venezuela policy.
This proves the old saying that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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We have Venezuelan neighbors with close relatives still in the country. We have heard all these stories, and worse ones. Like patients who had to buy water so a hospital staff could conduct life or death operations. Escapes from the country in the dead of night. Horrific stories of the needy dying in hospitals because of lack of equipment and basic supplies. Venezuela soldiers constantly being watched by Cuban military watching their every move and reporting anything out of the ordinary to Maduro loyalists. Which reminds me, Nick Kristof, do you have any stories of how the Cubans and Russians are affecting life in Venezuela? (I assume for the worst)??
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Listen, I am not preaching morality, but why was abstinence not an option for Yuliana and Génesis? They lament the price of birth control, thereby emphasizing implicitly the importance of not having unplanned children, yet speak now as mothers who can't feed their kids. Is this because they had no choice, their partners were unconcerned and uncaring? I am not (necessarily) blaming these women for anything, but either they or the fathers bear much responsibility for their situation.
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@Karl Gauss If you had to decide between food or birth control, which would you select?
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@Karl Gauss I was looking through the comment section wondering if I was being naive by thinking abstinence is also a choice they could make. I deeply sympathise with their struggles, but at the risk of sounding callous....it's a bit...puzzling(?) that they make a point about the existence of their children being due to a 'lack of birth control'.
@Paul TRIBBLE Just jumping in, yes of course I would choose to eat, but if I felt a child would be a burden at that stage in life, I would also choose abstinence. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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@Karl Gauss You may not be preaching morality, but you are specifying an understanding of love and comfort. I understand the gist of your comment, but ... please, listen to them. Understand what being human in the most dire circumstances means ...
If sex were simply about lust and satisfaction, yes, your comments make sense. But, for those with nothing else (and, for many of us with lots!), sex is as much about affirmation, hope and continued commitment to life with one another as it is to anything else ... There is no more complete abandonment to or celebration of a possible future.
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Venezuela is collapsing under the weight of US sanction. The Trump administration's draconian sanctions have made it impossible for the Venezuelan economy to recover from the plunge in price of oil.
The Trump sanctions are intended to make the people of Venezuela suffer.
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@J Albers
We have a hater in the White House who cares for no one but himself and his family. People are starving and our only option is to continue to destroy innocent people. Have we not gone down this path of death so many deaths,
Terrorist are born out of these sanctions in ten years these children will be grown and full of hate. The children in cages will grow up and remember how the US administration treated them in their time of need.
We have starved people and disregarded them. Imprisoned people and threw away the key. How do our leaders sleep at night.
The clock is ticking on this ignorant mean insanity . we have to do better but we won’t.
Thank you for the article it is very distressing.
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@J Albers. Funny how the economy of no oil producing country other than socialist Venezuela collapsed with falling oil prices
4
Remember that Bernie said the American Dream was more likely to be realized in Venezuela than the U.S.
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@Robert
And you would vote for someone that made such an idiotic statement?
So much has gone wrong for a country to collapse (I recall the time when Chavez could offer us here in MA cheap oil for the poor) ; setting aside ideology and leadership, it seems to me the major factor is that its economy was primarily based on oil. While that seemed to work for Saudi Arabia (which has been doing it for much longer yet is even now trying to wean itself), it is too risky for a nation still trying to improve its people’s status of living. Diversifying is always healthy for an economy, esp one that was based on fossil fuels, which will either run out someday (with just the short-term gain Venezuela once enjoyed), or no longer be in demand as greener or cheaper alternatives arise. Oil prices may yet rise again, but if even Saudi Arabia sees the end of the line, so should Venezuela.
May it find the leadership to revitalize the economy starting from the ground up, producing what the people immediately need right now, which appears to be everything- whether state-managed (should it be free of corruption) for public conveniences like electric power, or allowing small businesses and farms to grow.
5
@ml Chávez knew it, everyone knew it, he was creating a famine. But Cuba told him, get rid of the middle class, make poor people, that is how you establish communism.
This is a full blown humanitarian crisis and the Venezuelan people are in dire need. Those who have fled to Colombia have been welcomed but are desperate to earn what little they can to help their families in Venezuela. Students from the University of North Carolina's School of Media and Journalism reported this semester on the Venezuelan migrants in Medellin, Colombia and their stories are harrowing. The documentary films and stories premiere next week. Look for Uprooted UNC on FaceBook to see more. The news media are just now beginning to tell these stories based in Colombia. These stories are real and need to be told.
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As a cautionary tale it's useful to be reminded that socialism always ends up in the same place, yet for some hope always trumps experience - trust us, this time it will work! It's also useful to note that many of these and other migrants from the region will make an extremely long, difficult and perilous journey to one of the most capitalist countries in the world, the United States. They do this despite what critics of the U.S. are incessantly saying - that economic exploitation is everywhere, that racism is rampant, that gun violence is an epidemic, that girls are routinely sexually assaulted, and so on. Yet, for some reason - who knows why - they come here. So, who's right, the critics or the migrants?
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@J. Yes, the US is a more attractive place than Venezuela; almost any place is. That doesn’t mean the US can’t be extremely better than it currently is.
Venezuela is more a victim of corruption than it is of socialism. The US currently has the same kind of problem.
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@Pb of DC It's like the old saying, that democracy is the worse political system, except for all the others. The US has it's faults, but it is still the destination of choice because one has the most opportunities here.
14
Using Venezuela to prove a point about socialism is like using Bernie Madoff to prove a point about capitalism!
There are many examples of socialist policies working well in advanced economies.
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These are testimonies of The Living, and Mr. Kristof, this is time again to ask whether more human emergency relief workers would be capable, fit and willing to bring water, food and medical supplies to The People, in danger and dying for lack of bare essentials.
It would be helpful if you could give us a reminder of a list of non-governmental agencies, and I believe The International Red Cross might have an important task force, but funds are needed to coordinate and implement in unison these life necessities for and by The People.
We can become more human and humane, and our words of solace are tolling shallow without the need to take action.
Remembering Magdiela from Bogota, Colombia, and her 'Come on Now' in renewing our efforts with our team of colleagues, to bring to the conscious of the Public and governments on a world-wide basis the awareness of the plight of the impoverished, the suffering and dying children taking place forty years ago and deemed IYC, The International Year of the Children.
It was not always a picnic; it was challenging and grueling on occasion, but let us not sink into our shells, but go back to the Saving Board, and Learn to do Better.
6
We wish that people could stay in familiar surrounds, surrounded family if they wish, on their own if not ... that is what most Americans enjoy. We wish that our leaders were more oriented to advising other countries with how to achieve this goal. We wish that other countries were more interested in their citizens. We wish ...
3
My Venezuelan wife has family members who have died from lack of basic medicines. None of them have enough to eat. We keep trying to come up with excuses to keep my 84-year old mother-in-law from going home. This is a full-blown humanitarian catastrophe. The US should not directly intervene militarily, but we SHOULD use every economic and diplomatic tool available to oust Maduro. This is literally the only thing on earth I agree with Trump about.
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@Mike I disagree....I agree with doing everything necessary to topple the mafia in power in Venezuela, including arming, assisting and fighting on the side of a new Venezuelan Army, and get Cuba out of Venezuela, Cubans are torturing now Venezuelan military officers and their families. Incredible disrespect and incredible that Russia and Cuba are taking a territory twice the size of California from our allies the Venezuelan people with famine and terror. This is our decadence, it is not only the Venezuelan one.
3
First off I have to say if a barrel of oil was still one hundred fifty dollars would we be having this nightmare. If you don't believe deep state, entrenched bureaucracy, the military industrial complex, the swamp, the banks and Brussels helped this along you could be right. Could be. Venezuela was one of biggest oil suppliers. Of course I know they were an unreliable supplier colluding with the Russians. But all we seem to be good at is giving them governments they don't want. It's the nature of the beast.
Throw the Green Party's into the mix and the attempted eventual banning of oil. How would countries like this and Mexico for one, survive? No way the right and left of this country and Europe do the developing nations any good. They can't even mine because of a slight chance a species of butterflies might be affected. No they should look to China. They might do better with them than with the new world order. At least the Chinese might be willing and have the means to end poverty around the world.
This won't appear in comments. But I had to have my say.
2
Maduro must go.
If it takes military force, either internal, external, or some combination of the two, then so be it.
This is not a choice between good or bad - it's a choice between bad or worse.
Or - if you will - between greater or lesser injustice.
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@DennisG It always seems like a good idea at the outset of a coup but it never works out the way we think it will. With the military backing Maduro, the whole country would degenerate into civil war. Look at Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan and many others. And whose external "military force"? Vietnam and Afghanistan should have taught us that interference is counterproductive and extremely expensive in American lives and national debt.
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@DennisG I agree that he needs to go, but would not support the cost (in lives) of a U.S. military intervention. It may have to get worse, so that there is a total collapse of Maduro's government, before it gets better. When Maduro can't feed and equip his army it may stop supporting him.
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@Kathleen
'No more Vietnam's' is a popular expression - one I happen to agree with, although I suspect my reasoning may differ somewhat from yours. (Or not?)
Nobody says, 'No more Grenada's.'
7