In the 1960s I did some of the earliest research on busing black children from public schools to white suburbs. The stresses (travel time, hostility, overt racism, increased academic competition) on the black kids were substantial, but even worse was the fact that the Boston schools had not remotely prepared their students to compete at the same grade levels as their peers in high-performing suburban schools.
Integration is a worthy goal, but it makes no sense to dumb down the entrance criteria for NYC's specialized schools in order to meet some politically-defined and arbitrary racial quota. Doing this will lead to failure for many or even most of the students so admitted, and will force many teachers to teach down to the lowest common denominators. Specialized schools will also need to set up tutorials and remedial classes for the "challenged" students, which will require more funds and personnel.
Such steps may result in a few more minority students making it into and through the specialized schools; however, many of these students will then be stigmatized as the product of affirmative action rather than having been selected on merit.
Unfortunately, de Blasio's plan will cause many parents whose qualified kids are shut out of the specialized schools to move to the suburbs or send their kids to private school.
The (very expensive) answer is not to water down the selection criteria for the specialized schools, but to improve all schools.
311
@Mal T - Boston itself was subject to busing, but NOT the surrounding suburbs, so your comment is incorrect.
Many years after the ruling, the judge who ordered the desegregation actually reflected on the policy's limited application to only Boston public schools. He acknowledged that the far wealthier suburban communities which were exempt from busing should have also been included.
26
@Really FYI, busing of black Boston schoolkids to several suburbs started in 1966 as authorized by "Massachusetts General Law Chapter 76, Section 12A, which gave city and town school committees and districts the right [but not the obligation or requirement] to "help alleviate racial isolation" and "racial imbalance" by placing children who reside elsewhere in their schools. 'Racial isolation' is defined as occurring when a school population is more than 70% white. METCO [Metropolitan Council for Educational Opportunity] has been the vehicle for this placement since 1966, administered by the Department of Elementary and Secondary Education." [source: METCO]
The first 7 METCO suburbs in 1966 were Braintree, Lincoln, Arlington, Brookline, Lexington, Newton and Wellesley.
The judge you mention regretted that the busing was only one-way; that is, busing black kids to suburban white schools but not busing suburban white kids to black schools. For obvious reasons, suburban parents of any race or ethnic group were and are unwilling to have their schoolchildren bused to Boston's under-performing schools.
This disparity in educational quality of urban vs suburban schools remains prevalent in most large cities today, over 50 years after METCO was started.
54
@Mal T - I read your comment incorrectly and just wanted to point out that the METCO program was not part of the court-mandated desegregation plan for Boston public schools.
5
These kids are awesome.
The appropriate solution is to help give all socioeconomically disadvantaged kids (regardless of race) more opportunities, encouragement, and quality education at a much earlier stage, so that they can eventually perform to their full capabilities on the entrance exam. De Blasio's idea to get rid of the entrance exam is just a cop-out, and will end up destroying the schools.
I cannot believe that he is contemplating a presidential campaign. Would he even win re-election in NYC?
120
@nh
The most “socioeconomically disadvantaged kids” in ths discussion are the children of poverty level Asian illegal immigrants with little or no English. Of course, these are the very students Harvard discriminates - against.
54
This is obviously so wrong. They should admit more black students and provide some help for them. How can this happen... are they not wooing all races? I think the admissions office should explain, and review the applicants. Fix this.
3
What is the point of this confusing article? Is the reporter implying that the elite high schools need more strict admission system so there is absolutely no room for questioning the competency of the black and hispanic students who got in? That is a strange way of criticizing the lack of black and hispanic students in these elite schools. It is a shame that a NYT reporter chose to tap into the emotional vulnerability of sensitive teenage year kids for a piece of sensational journalism instead of serious investigation of the real problems.
39
I just wonder if this is not just white people using
Hispanics and Blacks against Asians because they are no longer the majority in the elite schools. Just a thought.
11
admission is based on merit. How about interviewing the few whites or rare hispanics on elite basketball teams?
50
Isn't it ironic that we need to lower the bar for Blacks because they are under represented and raise the bar for Asians because they are over represented. Has anyone looked with fresh eyes at this system and seen how crazy it is?
69
Limits to inclusiveness: 5’6” fat man playing pro basketball. Notice I didn’t say white fat man...oops. Two solutions are possible: 1) special black high school, special Hispanic high school or 2) no special schools. Solutions to what? What is the purpose of these schools anyway? Not sure after reading this article. And why so few white kids? Have white people figured out something or just don’t care. Stay tuned for Asian flight from NYC.
11
Asians saying blacks got in to (fill in) b/c of melanin, is like whites saying Asians should be denied admission to (fill in) b/c they do not have sparkling personalities.
They are both incorrect.
3
I hope every valedictorian at Stuyvesant, for years to come, is black or Hispanic.
Petty? No, just liberating and delightful.
6
High achieving Asian students deserving NYT profile piece too?
47
Another reason why black and Hispanic students are under represented at Stuyvesant is that many of the best and brightest go to NYC’s private schools, which value diversity, on full scholarship. If Stuyvesant gets dumbed down, and even greater amount will flock to Horace Mann, Trinity, Chapin and other top private schools.
148
They should feel special, like all the other gifted students.
12
Having lived in Fort Greene/Clinton Hills Brooklyn near the school for most of my life I stopped being surprised at the dearth of Hispanic , Black , and low income students that exited the school in the afternoons more than 25 years years ago . I also stopped being surprised that the school quickly become largely Asian and Indian as the no of White students declined due to White Flight determined to keep the kids in the picture from going to school with their kids.
The reversal of obvious and overt discrimination and harms African Americans won for them by the 1970's has increased opportunity from none to better , but certainly is not enough to defeat the income disparity and lack of capital or , being forced and limited to less qualitative primary educations , and the lack of political power in a Country run by White Men .
So while the few can be whatever they may dream the many cannot escape the chains of racism and oppression . As long as White people don't want them in their churches these kids will know that not even God can make them "do the right thing " .
6
Regardless of how one feels about the racial diversity of Stuyvesant, it's hard to ignore how over represented Asian students are at this school compared to their city-wide population. This is not, not, I repeat not to suggest that those kids do not deserve to be there but, rather, to beg the question of why so many other kids (white kids, included) are not students at Stuy. What's going on that drives this disparity? Many will argue that the black/Hispanic kids don't work hard enough because that's easy and lazy. Does this same logic apply to white kids or is it more likely that they go to competitive private schools? What's really going on here? All we really have right now to answer that question is conjecture although I would guess 2 factors are at play: 1)Many Asian kids are aware of Stuy early on and rigorously prepare to attend; 2) Many otherwise capable black/Hispanic kids really have no idea of what's out there beyond their neighborhoods.
22
So this is deBlasio’s solution for failing to turn around the underperforming High Schools in the city by moving the goal posts to “ diversify” the elite schools.
Many inner city kids can recite the latest tunes by heart so it’s not a question of brain power but a lack of focus.
26
(Dream Sequence): Working together through transparent conversation w/guardians, there is room for us to grow. We should be able to be innovative to create new opportunities, allowing us to embark on a transparent process. This is how we end up changing the ratio for the better.
Most of us get it. Transparent communication encourage dyads to become “triads” – groups of three people together with shared interest and common values. “Triads are the building blocks of Information that flows freely through networks & innovation enabling individuals to listen empathetically to multiple perspectives. Sometimes we think everything is great, but it’s not. According to Professor David Logan, author of “Tribal Leadership”, 48% of the groups we belong to, at first, seem to be functional, with most individuals having a high regard for their place in the group. However, many of them complain that they’re doing all the work. They form “dyads” – one-on-one relationships between two people – & have little communication beyond that. Once we dive in, the worst case scenario may prompt an individual to think “the earth is flat”. If this sounds like you, recognizing other people lead productive lives accepting the earth is round while you continue to have doubts, is a step in the right direction and can lead to self advocacy. Unfortunately, a disproportionate amount of inner city families think "The Earth Is Flat" regarding education. How can you advocate for something you don't know exist?
1
Based on all the articles, the lack of opportunity to study and prepare for specialized high school entrance exam seems to be the issue. I like to propose a free public system that will provide extra help and tutoring at middle schools to students so they can compete with the kids who have access to private extra help. Lowering or getting rid of the exams is not the answer. It was four decades ago but I remember attending after school programs at another ps for advanced classes based soley on my grades. We should do the same with the entrance exam preparations. Let's find a way to implement extra help for kids who cannot afford it but are willing make the committment. Dumbing down the system is not the answer.
A personal testament ...
Few months ago, my daughter scored 640 on SAT math but with 3 months of hard work and tutoring she found out today she scored 790. Yes, tutoring was expensive and we were lucky enough to afford it. We can level the playing field by getting rid of the lucky quotient by providing free extra help. Let's find a way to fund this.
I believe hard work and free extra help is the most "fair" way forward.
12
I attended Stuy almost 40 years ago (yikes!!). I made a point of testing for many of the specialty high schools in the City since the zoning changed shortly before I was due to go and my (newly) zoned local high school did not have a good reputation - this was the late 70's and much of the City was not in a good way. All these recent stories about the lack of diversity at Stuy make me want to go dust off my yearbook and look at the faces again to see how homogeneous it was back in the day.
I am a graduate of a NYC academic public high school. of course, the selective schools were known to pretty much everybody, and the assumption was that those who were admited to places like Bronx Science or Stuyvesant were preternaturally brilliant. so, it comes as a shock and surprise to read that some black and Hispanic students at Stuyvesant have heard racist comments whispered behind their backs. even though we all know adolescents can be pretty and mean, how can these "brilliant" kids also be so dumb? perhaps they were pushed by parents to be high academic achievers at the expense of learning to be decent human beings.
64
Although I did not go to Stuy, I do know how difficult it is going to school everyday feeling like an outsider. The whispered comments and the stares behind your back makes you more self-conscious about yourself as you walk down the hallway. However, one thing that kept me from falling apart was reminding myself that I got in because of my own hardwork and skills. It was not based on the color of my skin, or my economic status. However, I do acknowledge that more work needs to be done in increasing the standards and resources of elementary and middles schools in the city, especially in districts that have been lagging in the past. Yet, don't expand G&T programs or offer free prep courses without ensuring that the help being offered is of the best quality. What is the point of offering extra assistance if it is mediocre. Remember, quality over quantity! That being said, I still support the SHSAT requirement, only because it is the least bias way of admission determination. However, to make it more fair, offer high quality test prep for the top 5-10% of students in each middle school so they will have an equal chance of admission. There shouldn't be selective bias within school for certain students, like guidance counselors picking out students and telling them individually instead of making sure the whole student body knows. That is just despicable and unethical.
7
They look so sad, I hope this isn't pervasive and they are finding joy in some of their life. Life's unfair, it's a fallen world not utopia.
2
It should be recognized that the top minority applicants get invited to private schools and are offered generous scholarships.That significantly reduces their numbers in the public school system.
25
While not a solution to the underlying challenges Black and Hispanic students have in terms of access to accelerated classes in middle school, wouldn’t a practical immediate response be to require that EVERY seventh grade family is notified about the schools and the exam, and EVERY student be required to take the test?
It seems a common thread is many students of color simply are unaware of the schools and the test itself.
As a Bronx Science alumnus, I believe in the validity of the entrance exam, as injecting the variances of subjective grading standards is unfair to all students and could lead to grade inflation.
11
How do they feel? I would hope they feel happy and proud of their achievement and be an inspiration to others that they can do the same, rather than resorting to social engineering.
9
It struck me how very possible it could be to change these statistics. It seems as if outreach to all of the NYC 8th Grades explaining the benefits of test prep and the elite high schools would make a huge difference. Why can’t the city set up a test prep website that was essentially free for students? And then mandate that teachers provide the link to their students. Many would ignore the opportunity but as the kids in this article demonstrate many would seize the opportunity.
2
There is the false assumption that Affirmative Action means kids who score lower on standardized tests or have lower GPAs are accepted over students with higher grades and scores. Affirmative Action includes getting kids who are qualified by the same metrics but don't access or knowledge of schools like Stuyvesant a chance to attend the better schools. I benefited from Affirmative Action by getting an opportunity to compete with the best and the brightest at prep school and Harvard and I graduated with honors from both and outperformed wealthier students --white ,black and asian --who were supposedly accepted on "merit".
3
The young people profiled here deserved their spots, both in high school and college. Kudos to them, and I’m sorry that some of them have faced unkind comments. But the story, I think, actually underscores a point that so many critics of the test and the schools overlook: Family support and hard work pays off. Yes, it would be good to widen the talent pool. But don’t do it by diminishing the very standards these young people met.
10
NB many of these students are biracial or born outside the US- this says a lot about of number of issues surrounding this topic. Its complicated and messy ,people, whenever “race” enters the discussion. Surely one can do better right now though via very aggressive mentoring and test prep for students receiving free lunches in NYC public schools, but just dont see how one squares the merit basis for admissions with “race” class compositions that mirrors k-6 enrollment any time soon. Something has to give.
8
Congratulations are in order for the subjects in this article. I assume they took the test like everyone else, and passed the bar for admission. They deserve it and those who accuse them of getting in because of their race should be ignored.
What else is there to say? Is the article trying to suggest that this test is inherently racist if people aren't passing in proportion to their general population?
Maybe those who didn't score well on the test can learn from what these (and other) students who did, did differently for preparation. Seems to be the logical, but not PC, solution.
15
What is the common denominator these kids have?
They have parents who care about their education.
As a product of NYC school system where Hispanic and Blacks were the majority. Anytime there was a parent / teacher conference, school orientation, PTA meeting, test prep, 95% of parents who show up were White and Asian.
Rather than spending $300 on a pair of sneakers or $1,000 on a cell phone on your kids, put the money aside so they can take additional academic classes after school and on the weekends.
De Blasio spend almost $800 million in hs school renewal program and only a quarter of the schools show improvement. The only thing our mayor knows is to burn through money.
We have to break the cycle of parents non-involvement in their kids education. Without the parents buy-in no matter how much the city spends, it won't work.
18
It may be even more basic than that...could be the Asian and white kids have intact two parent families, lower incidence off drug abuse among the parents etc. Its not the kids fault, but its not a priori racism. Would be interesting to assess how minority students coming from intact two parent families families fair in admissions, and esp if you control for employment.
6
Many of the most promising African-American students (as well as African, Caribbean and other immigrant Blacks) are recruited by private schools and elite boarding schools through Prep for Prep and other programs. The private school high school fair last fall was full of minority students and their parents, who see the private schools as more inclusive and welcoming than the specialized high schools and offer very generous scholarships to these kids. The other point is, why the heck don't these kids know about the test? Why are their schools not telling them and getting them prepared? Why don't their parents know about them, like so many equally poor Asian-American parents do? This is not "segregation" the way I understand it; it's something far more complex and dificult to solve.
19
I come from an immigrant household. English is my second language. I went to grade and junior high in a very black neighborhood, (Fort Green). I was one of two real white kids in my juniors high school. The other white kids were actually Hispanic although at a young age it’s hard to tell a white kid from an Hispanic kid. In 8th grade I was hitting on what I thought was a white girl. After school I was beaten half to death by a group of Hispanic boys because I was rapping to one of their Hispanic girls. This was 1965.
I took the test for Bronx High but was not accepted. Bklyn tech and Stuyvesant were all boy schools and I had no interest in that.
Because of some program of integration where kids from black schools were bussed out of their district to white schools, I ended up in an almost all white school, Lincoln High in Brighton Beach.
I never saw so many lovely white girls in my life. I was in white heaven. So I got a good education at Lincoln and went to CCNY.
I got a great job after CCNY and made a good living.
Going to a decent non elite high school ain’t the end of the world.
However had I gone to my district high school, Sands High in Fort Green, I’d probably be stabbed to death, as white kids who went to Sands were terrorized and prayed apon.
Hope you enjoyed my story.
11
Simply ask the parents! Why would they want to raised their precious prize which is their kid by living in bad school district? Good/great parents, that's with an "S", when they buy a house or renting a place to live, first thing is look at the school then the house! Duh! In Good school district, you will pay more for the housing but you will save money by by not have to send your kids to private school.
2
You may not have the money at all. You are assuming people live in poor neighborhoods because they are making a choice to economize on housing but for many there simply is not enough money coming in to afford better housing. They are not all wasting money on things more frivolous than education. Some are simply barely scraping by.
5
I remember being told in Junior High that taking the test for Stuyvesant was the only way to avoid being "assigned" to our neighborhood HSs. Best. decision. ever. Eventually one of only ~3 who got in to MIT. The only way to achieve in education is to have parents/family who push you as a kid to succeed. The bigoted system won't do it and can't fix itself. When I was there there were 14! girls and ~250 blacks at Stuy High on 15th St; many were children of immigrant parents. So sad we don't push our children to take these opportunities - it's free! Nine? WTH?
11
Of the black students that got in, a number of them are first generation immigrants. I find that interesting. Maybe they are more ambitious?
27
Could also be they come from two parent intact families. How does admissions address come onstage for that ? Culture/family is destiny, even more so than race.
8
Improving the middle schools and starting test preparation at an earlier age (5th grade) will help solve the situation. I live in the Bronx near Parkchester, and I see all of the east Asians in the Khan Test Prep centers from an early age. These individuals do not just "take the test", they have been prepping for years and years. We know this fact. Provide free test prep to any student who has an 85 average.
6
The intellectual bell curve for any race of student should be the same. There are cultural differences that result in Asian American parents focusing on academic success. But these students demonstrate that the biggest barrier is lack of awareness. Is it naive of me to think that is a very fixable problem? Are their school assemblies anymore? Could a marketing plan be developed by NYC based businesses. There are great programs in Birmingham AL city schools that do these things. https://edbirmingham.org/
I believe that students should qualify based on their ability to succeed, but at the very least let all students know that a better option is available to them - one that requires hard work and natural (exceptional) abilities.
5
Not once in the article were the students asked if the standards for entrance should be lowered for students like them. I'm curious how they'd feel about that.
What stood out from this article is that black and Hispanic students feel they are looked down upon and with suspicion that they didn't get in the right way. The article also cites instances of students who only found out about elite schools through happenstance and feel that others like them need more opportunities to attend such schools.
To me, this strongly supports the argument that the bar should not be lowered and everyone should get in on their own merits. This standard must be upheld and universally known, so that no one can questions any student's status. Affirmative action has the unfortunate consequence of creating suspicion and there is no way to get around that since it is absolutely true that some students get in with lower standards under the program. I agree that more black and Hispanic students should know about and offered a path to elite schools, but that is very different than lowering the entrance standards, which is at the heart of this debate.
The world at large is moving at a certain pace and skill level. We need to make sure that our students keep up, not level down.
4
NY prides itself on "diversity" but, truthfully, having lived in other American cities the racial lines and the class lines there appear to align so neatly that it feels like a caste system. Other cities with less diversity on paper but more integrated work/life cultures feel far more progressive.
2
My wife and I both graduated Stuyvesant in 1976. It was a lot more diverse back then, but still didn't resemble NYC's overall demographic. My wife's uncle graduated in 1948, when it was almost exclusively white. It might never accurately reflect the city's demographic.
State law requires using only the test to determine admission only to Stuy, Science and Tech. DeBlasio has himself mandated that only the test marks admission to the other five "specialized schools." Law requires a test,but doesn't require what is on the test. There are many thousands of brilliant grads from Stuy, Science and Tech. Surely all of that brainpower can help devise a test that measures intelligence without making it overly favorable to manipulation through relentless test prep.
In early 1972, when I took the test, test prep was a rare phenomenon. I didn't find the test that hard. I was in gifted classes, but was much of an underachiever. I worked harder during my Stuy years than I did in any other school. My JHS on Staten Island actively discouraged students from even applying. My mother had to demand, in person, an application. I was one of two from that JHS in my class at Stuy.
With all of the national overemphasis on high stakes testing in this country, surely we grass can help design something that will produce a better, more representative, student body.
6
As an Asian-American who went to Stuy (class of '00) I totally sympathize with the issues non-Asian minority students are facing. While the racial disparity was stark when I went to school (about 50% Asian), its not nearly as pronounced as it now seems to be, and I can only imagine how alienating it must be for this group of students.
My position is that the admission process needs to be changed, perhaps radically. The test might be considered race-blind, but its clearly not doing the job of filtering only the 'best' students in the city. I didn't understand back when I went to Stuy, nor do I today, how one test can accurately predict academic success or student potential. I was amazed by the number of lackluster students I was surrounded by while I was there. Yes they passed the test, but I knew many people who were mediocre students at best, and whatever got them into the school certainly did not translate into strong academic performance over their four years.
Why is the test the only way to gain admittance to these schools? It clearly only benefits those with the resources and means to prepare for them, as evidenced by the way that the Asian community has created a vast industry devoted to it. And I'm aware that most of these students are from lower-income backgrounds, but when they begin training for it from near-infancy, what chance do other groups have of getting in?
I think the people of this city need to ask themselves who these schools really are for.
14
The ability to take one test under pressure is only a small part of a skill set needed by an intelligent student. Everyone will benefit by providing special students with different talents and experiences this wonderful educational opportunity.
2
The elephant in the room remains undetected. Many of the children featured in this article are 1st generation American or immigrants.
The immigrants who come to U.S. are self-selected to be more hardworking and industrious... lazy folks from their native countries are less likely to go through the process of coming here.
Many Asians and Asian-Americans, just like Nigerian-Americans, etc., come from immigrant households where education is highly valued. I am one of them-- I know. In many native countries, testing routinely occurs through childhood, so parents understand the value of tutors and test prep from their personal experiences.
I'm making blanket generalizations here. But my point is that first generation students' success is not just because of hard work-- which it is, in part-- but also because their families have a keen appreciation of how to achieve. Most low-income parents in the US never did SAT prep. In comparison, many low-income parents here from other countries did test prep as children, and studied for national exams.
White students, while successful, don't have the same work ethic... they benefit from socioeconomic and legacy status.
Thus, I think that generational Americans, especially if low-income, are at a disadvantage for these types of testing situations.
The fact that so many children at these schools are 1st-generation or immigrants suggests that the test is NOT working for all students, and is even potentially discriminatory.
9
And why again is the result on one test seen as the best way to nurture and expand the talents of bright, capable and hard-working students, and continue fostering the social fractures that ultimately weaken the community?
2
Wouldn't the best solution to a fair, straight across the board entrance exam be to remove the race questions from forms? Then entrance in to schools will be based solely on those who possess the academic level of achievement required for entrance.
Instead of names being applied to applications, there could be an identifying number assigned, so again, race is not a question in which students are accepted.
By eliminating race from applications, every child would be given an equal opportunity for admittance to the school of their choice.
1
@Valerie
There is no race question on this exam. There was also no race question when I took the exam in 1979/1980.
2
That's what they're already doing at Stuyvesant.
1
@Valerie
There is no "race question" on the exam. Race is not a factor in the scoring. The race of public school students is known from records.
3
Somehow I have the feeling that even this exploratory story on the lack of diversity ,speaks of racism.
My Physician stated a year ago ,that even our USA medical schools in our country have lowered the standards to accommodate student's that heretofore could not pass entrance exams.
Were the standards in fact lowered as my Doctor states or changed to make applying to medical school easier for people not of western European background?
Is medicine(or"elite High Schooling) not best served by changing the standards of application in some communicative way without lowering the intelligent protocol's required of applicant's that make these schools so important.
3
It is purely a matter of square footage. Plain and simple. If you build at least one more SHS, you can increase the number of students. You can make the cutoff point lower. Teachers will populate the additional schools without problem and recreate the same high standards, and I guarantee the new building will perform as well as the already existing buildings. Granted, finding more real estate for this system will be almost impossible, but it is the most fair solution for all students.
1
Yes! You’re saying exactly what I keep thinking...Make the building larger and accept more kids!
Same goes for Ivy League schools...If there are so many qualified applicants...Quadruple the size of the buildings!
If the SHSAT test was eliminated, this student's statement may ring true. She should feel confident of her rightful place precisely *because* she earned her spot fair and square, *without* race being a factor.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Still, Sarai acknowledged that other students’ comments had occasionally made her question her place at the school."
'I’ve been told that the only reason I got into Stuyvesant is because I’m black, even though the test doesn’t even factor that in,” said Sarai, whose father is black and grew up in New York City and whose mother is from Spain. “Not only is that discouraging and alienating, but it makes you feel like maybe you don’t deserve your spot, even though I know that I work just as hard as every other sophomore in my class.'"
3
@Please Use Reason UFTLY, that is the legacy of Affirmative Action.
Its a shame that Sarai who absolutely did earn her spot is tarred with this slur.
So, if the exam is dropped or standards lowered, won't it justify the comments about being let in solely because of race.
Brooklyn Tech in the 70's was very diverse when I attended.
Perhaps the grammar and intermediate schools need to instill higher standards of learning, instead of passing a poor performing student to the next grade?
7
If you want a fair alternative to the test, do what the State of Texas did in opening up admission to UT Austin, its flagship university: offer admission to the top 3% or 5% of every public middle school's graduating class, across the board. Then provide for admission based on a test for the remainder of each incoming class. This is based on the pretty plausible assumption that middle schools are proxies for the communities that they serve, and serves the goal offering admission to the top students in each community.
4
Excellent suggestion, though one can be certain Tiger moms would try to game that as well, but overall a much better approach and politically defensible .
1
@Video Non Taceo
The Mayor and Chancellor have proposed an admissions system like that. I and many others are against it because the NYC public schools are too uneven in quality.
4
I'm a college instructor in Texas, though not at UT. This would be a great idea if the schools that feed into the institution weren't broken-churning out a top 6% that often aren't college ready. Why does a a school the caliber of UT have Developmental Reading, Writing, and Mathematics education? Because the top 6% of students educated in upscale Westlake in Austin are getting a much different, and much better, education than those from the colonias in the Rio Grande Valley. Until the quality of a public school education everywhere is much more standardized, no admissions process revision is likely to help.
5
Student Culture, about the academic process. Student Motivation. Student Learning Skills. From the first grade to the last. School Board and Parents take note
1
More focus should be placed on the preparation of middle school students by giving them information of the choices that are available. From the comments of many of the students, it is clear that their respective middle schools failed to provide guidance and this is a shame. Many of the low income students have parents that are recent immigrants and have no idea how the system works. Instead of Mr. De Blasio trying to eliminate the admission test , it should take a closer look at the middle schools and recognize the real problem: Disadvantage in resources and lack of information to parents and students.
7
So many beautiful mixed-race young people here, each much more an “us”, meaning all of us, thankfully and hopefully, than a “them”, where sadly the dead-end “othering” begins. What not call it like it is, Times?
A case in point: Barak Obama was not Black; he was, if one wants to use the clunky term (can we find a better, more celebratory one?) “Mixed Race”, the love child of a very African Dad and a very American and very White Mom, raised and thereby deeply shaped by a Pan-Asian stepdad, and then by very American,very White grandparents.
Yet you and so many others call him “Black!” And you’ve headlined these kids “Black and Hispanic.” Sorry, but...Wrong!
What you are doing here is so reductive and damaging and unhelpful in these stupidly binary times. I expect the politicians and their political discourse to be so reductive as to almost be meaningless, except in its capacity to serve his red meat for people who won’t think things through. But I expect a lot more from the New York Times.
Be better, be smarter, speak only the truth, which may not fit into the neat, newsy categories of protagonist and antagonist that capture attention and sell your paper, but rather—please—reflect reality in its complexity, and the beauty that is mixed race America and our truly blended (and thereby strong) culture, with us all hopefully moving towards similar grand goals which will bind us into a loving and cooperative community. E Pluribus Unum forever!
86
@B Erickson As a bi-racial woman, (white mother, Black father), I made a conscious choice long ago to identify myself as Black, because America treats me as Black, as "the other".
As Barack Obama once wryly pointed out, if he is "not Black", he wished someone would tell that to the cabdrivers of Chicago.
I attended Wellesley and graduated with honors from Harvard. How often do you think people snidely insinuate that I achieved this only through Affirmative Action?
My father attended Stanford years before Affirmative Action existed; rather than receiving praise for his accomplishment, he was treated with racism and contempt.
Black Americans are still desperate for every small achievement we can acquire; please don't try to steal their Blackness away from these proud young scholars!
38
@William Lohier
Well said, William. I am proud of you and your response.
19
I am one of the students featured in the article. The racial descriptors used for students were the ones we asked for. I identify as Black and Korean-American and it is not your place to tell me I am incorrect in identifying in that way.
The truth is I would love to be viewed in a way that encompasses all the nuances of my identity however in reality I am and continue to be othered in my every day life because of my Blackness.
Instead of speaking for us “beautiful mixed race young people” please instead take a moment to actually listen to what we have to say and acknowledge as valid what we experience in our day to day lives.
447
This is not really about the fact that the so few African Americans get into Stuyvesant. It is really about the truth that from preschool to high schools most African Americans purposely get substandard education from our local school boards..
8
What amount of minorities apply to these schools as a proportion of all applicants? What is the acceptance rate of the minorities as a proportion of the amount that applied? How does that compare to the acceptance rate of non-minorities, as a proportion of the number that applied? There are certainly less minorities present at these schools, but I think that's a surface level examination. How do the numbers break down in proportional terms?
1
73% of the student body is Asian American yet there's not one of these students profiled or interviewed in this article. Who are they? Where do they come from? They can't possibly all come from affluent families and the best middle schools.
Both the profiles in this article and many of the comments indicate that it is extra effort that had resulted in access to this school. Seems that's the answer the evidence indicates.
11
@Daniel In previous articles I read that many (I think most) of the Asian American students come from middle to lower class families. I think the difference is that they come from a culture that emphasize study, effort and sacrifice and it shows in their scores.
5
@Daniel
There was an article yesterday or the day before interviewing SHS alumni and students.
1
I don't think administrators at Stuyvesant want to see students from a certain ethnic group succeed and other not. Take the test, prove yourself and get in! If you fail, you fail--accept the fact that you failed.
I have seen many ego-swollen kids who think they are "smart" and can become anything. I once lived in a basement of a white family where both the husband and wife were believed that high school was boring to them because they were too intelligent. Ironically, they were barely making their living. The lady, for example, would get up early on certain days and would go to the dumpster at Aldi and collect foods before the sunrise. She has once shared eggs and breads with us. If we want to see our children succeed, we should avoid using ego-boosting rhetoric that leads to an arrogant sense of self that "I am smart." No wonder some of these kids wear a T-Shirt that reads "genius by birth but lazy by choice." Like the Asians, respect the elders, listen to them, avoid high-toned attitude, humble yourself and recognize the fact that you have the potential to be genius but have to work hard to that end or that one is not born "genius" but becomes one with hard work. If you cultivate this perspective, it will lead to "self-discipline" which will guide and direct your behavior. Success will be your servant! This is the story of many Asian kids.
2
I graduated from Stuy in 1958. At the time, the school was all male and heavily Jewish. Then as now, there were very few blacks. The test prep courses and test prep books that exist now did not exist then, and one simply took the test during an afternoon. A definite lack in my education then was the lack of exposure to people who were very different from me.
Perhaps an answer to the problem is to use a hybrid of the current and proposed methods of choosing an entering class. Pick half the class based on the test, and pick the other half as proposed by Mayor DiBlasio. That would be fairer to everyone.
Also, make sure that there is tutoring and other help for students who are less prepared when they enter Stuy. Make sure that all who enter have a real chance at benefiting from one of the best educational experiences available for bright kids interested in science and math.
@Sans Souci
Everyone will assume that the Black and Hispanic students got in on a lower standard while all the whites and Asians made the grade. I love it when white people come up with "helpful" ideas that can't possibly hurt them.
2
As a first generation of Asian American immigrant with two US-born children, and a single parent with demanding work, I would say it firmly and clearly, the academic success of Asian American students are hardworking, value of education, and parental supports. Plan and simple! Nothing else!
Many of the Asian American students in Stuyvesant come from poor families. The affirmative action has already place a harshly unfair criteria to Asian American students. and now the Asian American students with social-economically disadvantaged background will be further stripped away Their well-deserved, hard-earned opportunities?
12
@jnl
When your descendants have been in the country and received substandard treatment for over 400 hundred years they can start discussing unfair criteria.
Yes, there was major discrimination against Asians until recently, but that has not been the case for the immigrants who are now coming from Asia.
@jnl
I am black and I agree that the test should remain. In a world of Olivia Jades (which some are still trying to downplay), the selective schools are one of the few instances where selection is merit-based or at least objectively determined. However, do you really think Asians are losing to blacks here? Get real. The vast number of spots in these schools that Asians will lose will go to whites. They don't do as well as Asians do on the SHSAT but they have the middle school grades so eliminating the exam only benefits them. If you can't see that, I have to wonder what is truly the basis of your concern.
3
Time to focus on other hard to get into schools in NYC. Too much focus on Sty. How about Beacon? Or Bard? What is the diversity there? Also, maybe we just need a lot more really good schools, including grade and middle. Smaller class size would help a lot. Also, op-ed schools like Murrow are great and the NYT should at least mention their success and diversity.
53
@BNYgal
Beacon:
Asian: 9%
Black: 14%
Hispanic: 19%
White: 50%
Bard:
Asian: 28%
Black: 13%
Hispanic: 17%
White: 39%
8
This issue has brought out some of the most reductive and simplistic arguments I have ever seen related to admission standards for a set of public high schools. I am a Black Alumnus of the Stuy - Class of '84 and this situation is ridiculous as when I went to Stuy and graduated with hundreds Black & Latino peers (got the pics to prove it). I find it untenable that such a decrease is due to a lack of studying or whatever puerile ad hoc measurement standards that are currently in place. Quite simply the math doesn't add up when it comes to the invites that go out from my alma mater and the other elite public high schools in NYC. This situation stinks and cannot be allowed to continue
2
@Stuy Alumnus
I'm black and got into Stuyvesant. So what are you suggesting happened? That the test has been carefully manipulated over the last three decades to exclude blacks but not Asians? That's pretty reductive too.
10
So many of the comments here reflect the lie that the NYC or the US education system is fair with sentences like “they need to work as hard as everyone else.” There’s an unfounded assumption that “everyone else works so hard.” Unless I missed something in the comments, I see little compassion or pride in the accomplishments of these young people profiled in this article. To these young people, if it’s helpful for you to read this, I know from personal experience how much harder you have worked and will work to make your mark on this world. Your empathy and maturity will carry you much further than your obvious outstanding ability to ace exams. You and your families should be unapologetically proud.
2
The question – “imagine being one of the few black and Hispanic students at one of the country’s most selective public schools” – assumes that race is important.
There is zero evidence that the school is not “welcoming” to everyone, and every one of those students – if admitted on the basis of the test – can proudly claim that she earned her place there. If it’s “just wrong” that so few Blacks earned admission, the fault isn’t with the school; it’s with parents and the feeder schools.
Don't like "snide comments"? If DeBlasio gets his way, those comments will be entirely accurate, just like they are with colleges: students who aren’t qualified will be admitted based on race. People admitted on “diversity” quotas do NOT “deserve (their) spot” and, if they are admitted, somewhere there is a student excluded solely on the basis of race. If the Ivies and other colleges followed suit, no one would make “snide comments” about preferential treatment. The problem these students face is that those “snide comments” are true.
There should be NO “racial sensitivity training”, because people should not be sensitive about race.
Consider the case of Ms. Nnadi; her parents considered her education important enough to send her to Catholic schools. Her comments about the local public schools are telling, and accurate. Want to increase opportunity? Vouchers.
The immediate “problem” will be solved when the NYT doesn’t consider ethnicity important enough to devote an entire story to it.
8
Every single kid in America should be able to go to a local public school that has facilities, equipment/technology, educational materials, activities, and Human Resources equal to the “select” schools.
3
What is the criteia for labeling the kids in the picture at the top of the article - "black" (or African-American)?
.
All but two of the kids look to be of mixed ethnicity - primarily Latino or Asian along with some African ancestry. One of the kids looks as white or Caucasian as anyone can be. Certainly, that could still mean that he has some African ancestry.
.
My point is that the situation is worse than the article reports. There are even fewer Africans in the school than the 29 mentioned.
.
What is the reason for that?
6
@HH
The first mistake in this and many other articles is considering "Hispanic" as a race. There are Hispanics of Native, European (white), Asian, African, Arab. etc. descent and, of course, many mix raced Hispanics (most of us are).
4
@HH
Agreed. It is a reach to say the majority of the "black" students are actually black. A person with a nonblack parent is not black.
If black students are to be admitted in part because of the disadvantages that continue to resonate among us as the result of slavery and Jim Crow, Hispanics and black immigrants should not be considered under this criteria because these groups have a completely different history. The majority of nonwhite immigrants arrived in this country after 1965, when the US stopped banning them and after the Civil Rights bill was enacted.
2
@Sara Andrea
The kids interviewed self-identify as black or brown Hispanics/Latinx. None of them look white.
Unfortunately, this article, without any evidence, points at the old boogieman of racism, even when these students SUCCEEDED. The article never asks them how they did it and what they would tell their peers to do.
And of course, no Asian voices. Why because the Asian who succeed goes against their argument of systemic racism. Let me share the Asian point of view. The racism Asians must overcome: http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/10/22/philly.school.asian.american.attacks/index.html
2
Admission is a two-way street: the selective schools only admit those who reach out to them. Can you do a little research and tell us, for each ethnic group, how many took the SHSAT and ranked Stuy first? Just saying only a small number qualified doesn't mean a large number was turned away.
2
White students will be the primary beneficiaries of eliminating the exam. They perform well in middle school but do not perform as well as Asians on the exam so eliminating that barrier gives them far more seats in the selective schools than they currently have. The number of black students in the selective schools will not change for the well-known reasons. Black people should not be the face of this outrage because it does not benefit them as a group at all. Eight black students were recently admitted, does anyone seriously think that number will double or triple based solely on eliminating the exam? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.
1
The good news is that every single one of these 29 students is a superstar who has been honored with a place in an elite high school for superstar students across NYC.
These 29 kids are evidence that if you study hard, prepare hard, work hard, and it won't matter what the liberals/conservatives say, or where you were born, or what you look like, or what God you believe in or not.
Everything else is totally irrelevant nonsense.
Let's stop discriminating on the basis of ethnic origin or skin color and take totally objective, name-blind admissions tests into these elite programs, like they do in most other countries.
5
I went to Horace Mann and graduated about a decade ago. I couldn't give you the name of a black student in my graduating class if you asked. I don't think there were any.
For one, proof of the discriminatory education system.
Go to school every day, pay attention in class, do the homework.
3
get born rich. become a spoiled juvenile delinquent. live blocks from a fine high school, but get sent upstate to a military reform school for uncontrollable rich problem children. get into college through bribery. become a crooked business mogul on other people's money. . get elected president. no studying is needed. see step one. as punishment, write an essay in your own handwriting and without help on the topic of aristocracy in America. extra points for cheating, of course.
The predominance of Asian students amongst the top tier of high school students nationwide may be what deserves attention. The reason would be not to condemn that presence, but to look more deeply into the rearing environment that causes it to happen. There iindeed must be something very valuable to be learned thereby.
7
“It wasn’t shock that I felt, it was the same wave of disappointment I feel every time I look at the demographics of this school.”
Well said.
Similarly, when I looked at the U.S. Congress, I hardly find any Asians. What's wrong with our society?
The most disheartening part of this article was seeing that the “black” students at Stuy are either mixed-race kids from affluent neighborhoods or the children of immigrants. It made me wonder if the gap with low-income kids is even bigger than I thought.
10
I don't think administrators at Stuyvesant want students from a certain ethnic group succeed and other not. Take the test, prove yourself and get in! If you fail, you fail--accept the fact that you failed.
I have seen many ego-swollen kids who think they are "smart" and can become anything. I once lived in a basement of a white family where both the husband and wife were believed that high school was boring to them because they were too intelligent. Ironically, they were barely making their living. The lady, for example, would get up early on certain days and would go to the dumpster at Aldi and collect foods before the sunrise. She has once shared eggs and breads with us. If we want to see our children succeed, we should avoid using ego-boosting rhetoric that leads to an arrogant sense of self that "I am smart." No wonder some of these kids wear a T-Shirt that reads "genius by birth but lazy by choice." Like the Asians, respect the elders, listen to them, avoid high-toned attitude, humble yourself and recognize the fact that you have the potential to be genius but have to work hard to that end or that one is not born "genius" but becomes one with hard work. If you cultivate this perspective, it will lead to "self-discipline" which will guide and direct your behavior. Success will be your servant! This is the story of many Asian kids.
I don't understand why people feel wronged... it's school. You only deserve to get in it you've put in the work to study hard and made achievements that deem you worthy of attending such elite schools. Although there is a lot of pressure from parents for kids to do well in school, how about taking your education into your own hands and put more effort into studying instead of crying over how your ethnicity is under-represented at these institutions?
It's a cultural thing for Asian students to give up years of summer vacation to attend summer prep school for the exam. And that's why they make up the majority of these specialized schools. Maybe consider sacrificing your summer vacations first before complaining about why you didn't make the cut. Unbelievable.
7
New York City did not have a Democratic mayor for 20 years.
Remember Mayor Dinkins?
NYC now has Democrats totally in control again.
They completely control New York state now also.
The appalling lack of diversity in these schools will not be tolerated much longer.....get ready for some big changes....soon.
Or am I missing something here?
I'm shocked and disappointed that so many "smart" kids at Stuyvesant would make the stupid mistake of assuming that their african-american and hispanic peers had an advantage when it comes to academic admissions. Sounds like something important is missing from their education.
2
Love all these thinly veiled comments about intellectual power (white supremacy) and meritocracy.
Here's how I got my two black kids into the specialized HS.
Opted out of public middle school - both kids attended an excellent predominantly black public elementary school.
Paid for hundreds of hours of one on one SHSAT tutoring.
The commenters who think the test is fair - know it is not. The ones who are staying study harder are liars - they now most black and LatinX parents can't afford test prep.
@Ann
"Opted out of public middle school - both kids attended an excellent predominantly black public elementary school."
Huh? So you stayed in the public school system.
1
African- and Hispanic-Americans combine to 44% of the SHSAT 2019 applicants, yet they account for 70% of the total student population in NYC public school (I don't know the demographics for middle schools, thus I assume that they should reflect the overall figures, that is they should also combine to about 70% of the middle schoolers), while the Asians account for 30.7% of the applicants, yet representing only about 17% of total students. The pool of applicants must be increase for the African- and Hispanic-American students and they must be better prepared for the test, before any meaningful changes in representation at Stuyvesant can be achieved. Found these numbers for SHSAT 2019:
Ethnicity; total testers; distribution of testers; total offers; distribution of offers; pct received offers
Native Americans; 269; 1%; 29; 0.6 %;10.8%
Asian; 8451; 30.7%; 2450; 51.1%; 29.0%
Black; 5488; 19.9%; 190; 4.0%; 3.5%
Latino; 6622; 24.1%; 316; 6.6%; 4.8%
White; 5008; 18.2%; 1368; 28.5%; 27.3%
Multi-racial; 362; 1.3%; 111; 2.3%; 30.7%
unknown; 1321; 4.8; 334; 7.0%; 25.3%
total; 27521; 100%; 4798; 100%; 17.4%
Source of data:
https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/
The test was tough and the cut-off brutal, as evidenced by 71% of the Asians, had failed.
1
I tend to agree that Diblasio's solution, while I assume well intentioned, is designed to treat the symptom (the lack of black and hispanic representation at elite high schools in NYC) rather than the disease itself (unequal access/preperation for the test involved for many students, especially black and hispanic students). It is very much like when in the late 60's they made access to the NYC colleges open admission, especially CCNY, because relatively few blacks and hispanics were getting in there, and ended up with a mess, ill prepared students, schools spending a lot of time and effort doing remedial work and quite honestly, failing everyone. The reason Diblasio proposed this is it is a 'cheap' solution, in a sense easy to implement, much as open admissions was.
The real answer is as others have said, doing a better job helping kids prep for the test. A lot of well off kids get all kinds of prep help, and in some communities there is this huge infrastructure around test prep, and there is tremendous awareness of this (specifically in Asian communities). The city should be making an effort to promote the elite High School Exam in all schools, and also offering test prep in the schools or subsidized test prep outside, and train teachers to identify kids who they think are capable and encourage them to try for it, early. Having affordable test prep also will stop poor families from having to sacrifice food to pay for test prep, as highlighted in an earlier article.
2
I'm sometimes confused with racial identities and their distorted amplification in US. Believe it or not, US is the most metropolitan country in the world, at least for me. I never felt I was a foreigner or a stranger there. The only thing that I was not comfortable with was the over sensitivity on racial issues, while no one really wanted to create or intended to have.
1
I remember reading an article in the last decade that had studied all the different changes and curriculum offered to low-income and disadvantaged communities. They found the most successful formula for success was a Catholic school. Catholic schools accept almost all students (I know some do not have the resources for severe learning disabilities) but like for like they will accept all the local children and get results. So although I believe parental and family support is the most important factor, school culture does help and can make all the difference to success. Catholic Archdiocese' around the nation have struggled to keep inner city schools open for this very reason. I also believe a study just came out showing that children at Catholic schools are able to be more focused and give greater attention to their work. Therefore again, school culture and expectations make a significant difference. My point is: don't give up on schools and lay all the blame at the feet of some of our poorest parents.
Unfortunately, the problem is not the test. Its the family unit which is needed to keep education as the primary mission for the child. Many children of color have many other distractions like food, shelter and health safety. If you are worried about your family eating, who cares about preparation for a specialized High School. The demographics are only showing which groups put education first. It is not surprising white and asian families have made education primary. Those groups tend to either have the resources or the understanding of what education will provide long term. There is no magic bullet to fix this disparity; there needs to be a realization there have been generations of cultural and educational abandonment. Until all family units can make education a primary mission, there will be a continual disparity at the specialized high schools. Going further using education as a pseudo proxy for social norms, the same groups which continually get left behind educationally will also lag in the "American Dream.".
1
Don't discount the make-up of the ethnicities that are succeeding. Most Asian-Americans have tightly knit communities and word spreads quickly on how to take tests, where to get information, who can help, methods to succeed etc. Add that to the immigrant drive to succeed and it is no wonder they do well. They are networking effectively for this very purpose. How can we create the same type of networking for other ethnic groups? Does living in tightly knit enclaves help this process? How do we create awareness? Values + networking = success for many of our Asian-Americans.
Has anyone considered the effect of Prep for Prep on the number of URM at SHS? Their sole purpose - and they do this quite successfully - is to prepare talented black and hispanic youth for placement in INDEPENDENT (i.e. private) schools. If I am a black or hispanic student in PFP, where am I going in 7th grade? Trinity or other such highly rated private. Same thing for 9th grade (boarding or private). I have the ability, I have choices, why go to any of the wonderful but overcrowded/over-stressed SHS when I can have my pick of the best NYC private schools with extraordinary resources and individual support? And have other students like me in my grade? Cherry picked facts don't belong in investigative journalism.
4
The effect of Prep for Prep is minimal. Each of the elite NYC private schools takes between 2 to 4 students (depending on the size of the school). The total number of students going to the 5-7 elite independent schools is approximately 20, with maybe another 10-15 going to boarding schools. Prep for Prep is a great program, but it’s not the reason only a handful of underrepresented minorities get in Stuy or Bronx Sci.
"But the black and Hispanic teenagers interviewed said they considered themselves proof that there is no disparity of effort or talent — just an imbalance of opportunity." I think that this statement sums it up quite well.
As a teen-aged girl I was not encouraged when I was in high school or earlier to do anything to pursue my interests in medicine. This was back in the 70s. My parents refrain was "Who would want to be treated by a female surgeon?". There was no one in my life who took an interest in what I might have wanted to do. And my parents were college educated yet they didn't see any reasons to help me determine if my early fascination and desire was worth pursuing.
I think that all students, regardless of where they go to school or what their parents do or earn, should be able to receive a high quality education in grades K-12. There is no reason for the highly unequal quality of K-12 education in America except the national will. Children understand equality as do adults. And they comprehend quite well the fact that some of their peers are more or less intelligent/talented than they in various areas. It's the adults who don't "get" it.
The test is not the problem. It's school funding and opportunities that are. Those are adult issues. The children are supposed to be learning, not being used as guinea pigs because the adults refuse to change, not the test but the quality of education being offered across the board.
3
Well said!
I feel like I learned a lot reading this article, mainly about the accessibility of information on testing and on the schools generally. We have a similar situation in Chicago, where students test into selective public schools, although some information like income (from different income zones) is taken into account. However, this isn't foolproof, as mixed housing neighborhoods like ours mean you can be zoned into a high income area but be making a lower income, living in a less expensive apartment (that's our situation). Regardless, I understand the point about accessibility of information. No one in our son's public school ever mentioned the testing to us, or encouraged him to take it, even though he's a prime candidate for it. We learned about it by talking to other friends, and then did our own research. It takes a lot of research, and the tests are only held on certain days. The deadline to sign up is generally December of the year prior to the next school year. The process is not intuitive. And it's not advertised - I can understand why, in a way, as public schools don't want to lose their best students, but I would also imagine that a lot of parents simply wouldn't know about it or understand the process, and many kids aren't being encouraged to apply (even those most likely to do well).
Where I grew up we didn't even have elite schools. Just regular school where everyone goes. Maybe that's the best thing.
3
I attended one of the other specialized NYC high schools fifty years ago. It was a pivotal positive life-altering experience and I still remember how it all came about.
I grew up with the academic tracking system with groups formed by achievement.
I went to what was then JHS115 in the Bronx, an all-girls junior high school in the accelerated program known as the SP. My cohort was very ethnically diverse, even then.
I know that the announcement for the application process for the specialized high schools were distributed across both the 2-year and 3-year SPs, but at 11 or 12 years of age, couldn't know how it was dealt with in the rest of the school.
In any case, when I arrived at high school I was exposed to a student population that was a full demographic slice of NYC, which formed a wider world view that I might not have gotten at my local high school.
I also used to live across the street from the old Stuyvesant HS and seem to remember from 40+ years ago that the demographic was more balanced than I am reading about now.
What happened between the 1960s-1970s and now in the specialized system?
Why does it seem to be going backwards?
2
Someone should study what was different about the time when the percentage of black and Latino students at the elite high schools was much higher. I believe that I read in a comment on another article that there were more gifted and talented programs and more tracking at the elementary and middle school level at that time than there is today. From what I read, those programs launched the minority students into the specialized high schools. I know tracking is not popular today. I also know that I would have had difficulty enduring my high school years at my lily white suburban high school without tracking. While no child should be left behind, those who can go further should be given the support to do so.
Additionally, students and their parents should be made aware of these schools at the beginning of high school and told how to prepare for them.
1
The fact that most of the black students were of immigrant or mixed-race backgrounds highlights the shameful fact that the offspring of historical victims of slavery and discrimination are not reached by the educational system such as it is. When will the time come that we can vouch with a straight face that at least the same amount of public money is spent on the education of all children? (Remember the endless litigation in NY state and the state's refusal to comply with the court's decision?) "Affirmative action" at the primary and secondary levels will just make it easier to hide the fact that we are not helping the truly disadvantaged. Equality of effort is much more important, and possibly some additional help for those whose home-life is not supportive enough (for various reasons). Once we can say with a straight face that all children had the same opportunities, then we can start blaming cultural attitudes (and this would mean serious introspection among groups who are less successful -- definitely not limited to one race or region -- did anyone mention Appalachia?).
3
I find this story very depressing. Something is very broken with the system as it exists. We should remind everyone that Stuyvesant is public property, not a private school, and as such I think it is appropriate to figure out ways to ensure nobody is systematically being excluded from this public resource. When 70% of the school system makes up just 1% of the Stuyvesant student body, there is a major systematic issue that needs to be addressed.
On the flip side, the stories of the students profiled in this article are very inspiring. These are clearly brilliant students who probably have had to build extra thick skin to make it through an environment where they knew they were the odd ones out. They aren't going to be successful because they are black, as some of their classmates have tried to lead them to believe, but because they are clearly exceptional.
2
NYC cutoff for kindergarten is 12/1. Those fall babies are one to two years younger than many they will compete with. We moved to NJ when my kids started middle school and my fall babies had a serious disadvantage for being the youngest in the class. I should have held them both back.
Maybe another year of preschool can help those born after July and move the needle.
4
@Deirdre I think you have the right idea! Kindergarten cutoff here in Chile used to be July 1st (we start school in March) but most of the younger kids weren't mature enough and had trouble keeping up with their (months) older peers. So the cutoff date was moved to March 1st.
1
I am a Black woman who attended Stuyvesant in the 80s when it was 12% African American. I wish there wasn't a comments section on this article - a few too many people who think having more black and brown kids means there is "dumbing down" of standards.
To the kids, thank you for your courage and bravery in speaking out. You are loved and supported.
7
@Ann As I understand it race is not factored in to enter Stuyvesant. Those who get the top scores get in, no matter race or socioeconomic background. What many people here disagree with is admitting students with lower scores just because they belong to X race, social class or area of the city. That would be lowering standards or "dumbing it down" as you put it.
Elite schools are not for everybody. They are not only for the most intelligent but for those who also have the foundations to do well in those schools. The children who were accepted had the knowledge needed as a basis to their education at Stuyvesant. Probably there other kids that are even more intelligent but, if they lack that basis, accepting them over more qualified applicants would be a disservice to both their classmates and themselves.
2
Some people seem to be missing the point here. It isn't about dumbing down the test. It's about letting kids in minority neighborhoods know that these schools exist so they can study for and pass the same test as everyone else. It's not about getting more kids to pass the test, it's about getting more kids to take the test.
5
Actually the DOE does send home a book (the size of telephone book) with all the high schools and details about their admission policy. There is also a separate booklet for just specialized high schools which includes a sample test as well. The schools send emails informing about open houses and there is an high school fair in every borough.
All three of my (white) kids had tutoring and went to the selective high schools. Some of the teachers were very good; some were dreadful - my son, especially, learned ambition and hard work from his first generation peers. To create more schools like these, you'd have to fill (or seed) them with that kind of kids.
If you wanted every child with a brilliant mind to succeed, you'd have to start with every child living in a stable household that values education, free quality childcare, an elementary education with good experienced skilled supported teachers, and classrooms filled with well behaved motivated peers, for starters. Test prep wouldn't hurt either, but comes too late for many.
3
I'm of the opinion that grades and test scores are the only factors considered for admission to the "elite" high schools in NYC. How could it be otherwise when you have a mayor who is married to a black woman? Do you think that racial profiling would fly? Asian kids work and study more and harder and it shows in their test scores. They are very academically competitive.
On the other hand, in light of recent revelations, on the collegiate level, I believe that in many cases, money talks, nobody walks. With the right connections and a sizeable "donation", most any applicant, qualified or not, will gain admission.
2
My son graduated from ASFA in Birmingham, Alabama. ASFA is a magnet public school and accepts the students with aptitude tests for 'math and science' department like Stuyvesant and similar HS. His senior class of 65 was consisted of mostly immigrant’s children (Asian Americans, Middle East origin and east European), some white and a few black students. Although the enrollment of the black students was higher than the population of black students at the senior class, most of them couldn’t continue due to the hard-academic requirements of the HS and they transferred to other public schools. The real problem is our broken education system. What we have now in the secondary school world does not bring a healing for inequalities of society by providing quality education which will open the doors for good colleges/effective vocational schools and eventually motivating/preparing them for a very competitive real world.
Does everybody have to go to college? Why can’t our society focus on other alternatives of effective higher education?
Today: HS graduate: No College is 43% and HS dropout is 12%. These are the real issues.
I am a certified ICC, I know the game of the admission process also. I have to say, it is just not fair in any level.
Why is the undergraduate tuition cost of any ivy league college $55 K, while the same quality education at Oxford, Cambridge, (UK) is $12.3 K ?
We need a revolution in education to keep the American dream alive as a diverse demographic nation.
3
why must everyone have everything handed to them? study, pass test, get in. the parents should be encouraging their kids to do better, not the city government.
4
I relate strongly to some of this - as a low income student in Brooklyn in the 80s I had the advantage of being in a gifted program in middle school, but I still didn't know anything about the elite high schools and did not know there was a test for them until it was too late and kids were already getting their acceptances. Our middle school offered no information about them or test prep info. for the students so the kids who knew about the test mostly had parents who knew - if your parents didn't know what to do, we kids didn't know either.
As for me, it was a time when there were still a lot of zoned high schools and the ones I was zoned for had terrible and dangerous reputations. Someone told my father about a new school in Manhattan opening up that I might like and he called the school to see if it was open to Brooklyn students - because it was brand new and they had space, it was (although the following year the school admitted only kids from Manhattan) and that's where I ended up going. It was a good school and I often am grateful to the person who spoke to my father about it but I also really can't believe how close I came to having no options. While I liked the HS I ended up attending very much I DO regret that my family knew so little about the process that I didn't even take the SHSAT.
4
Trying to solve this issue at high school is way too late. Let’s talk about better grade schools with improved family support. And NYTIMES again. Every article is about race and it’s everybody else’s fault. Until we address that the community is full of broken families or families that never were and their is no support for education what result are we expecting?
9
I feel for these kids. I have no doubt they earned their spots at Stuy just like every other child who studied and sacrificed to make it, and I'm saddened that they're not embraced by their peers. I wish them all success. I'll also point out that my two Asian children attend public elementary school here in the city. I teach my kids to respect everyone. It took my oldest until about 4th grade to really start identifying others by race. At this school, the Latino population is the overwhelming majority, and the Asian population is small enough that it often requires hiding statistics on them to protect privacy. I get to hear my children tell me how some of Latino children make comments about their eyes and appearance, get called "Chinese" (though they're not, and not that there's anything wrong with that). Being made to feel unwelcome is not a characteristic that pertains only to white and Asians. Being taught to respect everyone regardless of their skin color is something that ALL parents should do.
14
Ms. Nnadi said she FEARED that she wouldn't be embraced by her peers. If anything, her own fears dictate her experience far more than what her classmates actually think about her. Even when they comment that as a graduate of an elite school she will have something of an advantage when applying to college because of her ethnicity, they are not invalidating her hard work, merely stating a fact. Universities all understand that she, like everyone else in her class, gained entry to Stuyvesant solely on the basis of her own hard work, achievements and native brilliance. Unlike Stuyvesant however, they have racial quotas to fill, so her ethnicity and gender will be an advantage.
I fear that the New York Times isn't trying to solve a problem with this series but to create one and fan the flames of divisiveness. If they were really just trying to report on what it feels like to be a minority in an elite high school they would have reached out as well to the white students who attend Stuyvesant and reported on their experience.
This article reminds me of the antisemitism which was rampant in my Brooklyn elementary and high school back in the sixties. Because the majority of our teachers were Jewish and the majority of students in the AP classes were Jewish it was whispered by those who didn't make the cut that it was because the Jewish teachers were bigots who favored their own." Not so. My AP teachers, who knew how things worked, worked to help me overcome my cultural limitations.
1
I am a Stuy alumnus Class of '61. We had never heard of any specialized high school other than Bx. Sci. back then. All the students in the three SP classes took the test cold. I think there were about 4-6 acceptances. The lesson for today is that primary school enrichment programs, awareness of the opportunities and building the prestige of these programs among students and parents would be first steps to remediating some of the admissions disparities. Also, some specialized elective courses at the specialized high schools could be used as models for enrichment programs at public high schools throughout the city.
4
Yes, it’s really shocking to hear that a lot of these Black students and families would have no idea the test existed if not for some doting teacher intervening.
As an educator in the Asian American community I can say probably 90% of Asian students in nyc take the test; families see it as the only way to escape the dismal state of much of the rest of nyc’s public education.
Definitely more outreach and support programs need to be developed for Black / Hispanic communities.
I went to what was, in the 1990s, considered a fairly good NYC public elementary school that had kids from my immediate neighborhood (which skewed mostly white and in those days ran the gamut from working-class, like my family, to obscenely wealthy) and the public housing projects half a mile away.
Anyone who denies that there is racism endemic in the public school system either has never attended school here or is keeping their eyes and ears shut. White kids were funneled into the gifted program while Black and Hispanic kids were routinely disciplined twice as hard and even had the police called on them for such "offenses" as crying and refusing to come into the classroom because they were homesick.
...In kindergarten. I think every kindergartener does this.
The white kids did this too but we were coddled and told it would be all right. That is white privilege and if it's codified in the disciplinary system at school even so early on, the system is broken.
In the gifted program, there were only four Black and Hispanic students in two 25-person classes. The normal classes were much more mixed.
It's not just high school. We need to start combating systemic racism at the elementary school level. Every child deserves an equal opportunity to grow up into whatever they want to be, whether that's a physicist or an artist or a chef.
6
It's interesting that none of these students suggests moving away from the objective entrance exam and toward a softer, holistic admissions system.
Their comments would seem to lead to a different policy prescription than the Mayor's.
Instead of ditching the test, perhaps focus more resources on helping disadvantaged students access test preparation. And, more generally, strive for academic excellence in the elementary schools.
Softening the admissions criteria may tend to worsen the bigotry these students encounter at the elite schools. If they get in based on the tests, there's obviously no merit to the claim that they're products of affirmative action.
8
I believe Stuyvesant is welcoming as long as the applicant has what it takes to succeed academically. Eliminating the test, and/or dumbing down the curriculum is not helpful. The right attitude toward education, parental involvement and better schools before reaching Stuyvesant are the answer.
14
I'm a 1957 Stuy graduate. White and Jewish, as were about 95% of the boys then attending. No test prep - just a product of the public school system of the time.
The number and percentage of black students was about as low then as now.
I got to know most of the black students through sports, and along with three of them and another white Jew, we formed a doowop singing group. We were awful, but we did get to know each other in a very different way. (You should have seen my mother when we had our first rehearsal at my house!)
But there is no question that the black guys in the group did feel edgy at school.
When the other white kid in the group used the N word, everything fell apart. One of the black kids - a very high achiever in classes and sports - came to school the next day with a pistol in his gym bag. If there was going to be racial problems at school, he was not going to take it quietly. Strangely, the white kid had used the N word in what he would later describe as a friendly way, to try to show that he was "OK" with their race. He said that if they has used the J word, that would have indicated that they felt comfortable enough with Jews to have a little harmless, friendly fun.
As far as the test, I'm still for it. We should try to develop kids who show the most promise.
But that means a better education for all, at every level. And I still don't see the political will to support that idea. So welcome to the dumbing-down of America, NYC style.
9
I am left with more questions than answers after this article.
*Out of the 29 black students, how many belong to the BSL?
*Out of 100 Hispanic students, how many belong to Aspira?
*The article identified students ethnic background as being truly biracial (statistically, black Americans are 30% white on average; https://nyti.ms/1vogbEn), why identify as Black if you have a better chance at getting in as Hispanic, White or Asian? Is there an advantage (e.g., “A student that represents cultural diversity and has the scores and transcripts that meet what colleges are looking for has an advantage,” https://www.hispanicoutlook.com/articles/15-tips-minority-students-get-accepted-ivy-league- ; MBE/WBE advantage https://www.inc.com/guides/2010/05/minority-owned-business-certification.html)?
*Why are white students underrepresented, only 20%, and why is there no mention of this in an article on under representation (NYC is 45% white; http://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/new-york-city-population/)?
*The article clearly stresses the role these children undertook in shaping there own paths, demonstrating maturity and agency, can we learn more about the traits of children admitted to Stuyvesant?
5
The admissions is 100% merit based. That means applicants take a 1.5 hr test and the score on that test is the only thing that is looked at.
The student body is 70% Asian because every working class Asian family knows that going to one of these schools is their child’s ticket to a better future. Every. Asian. Kid. takes this test.
The real shocker that’s revealed in this article is that Black kids and families aren’t even being told this test exists.
1
They feel the same way all non-White , non-wealthy Americans feel once they are old enough to see . Their parents know they were forced to go to segregated and less qualitative primary schools .
Their parents know that the lack of wealth will place them at great disadvantage in a Capitalist Society .
Their parents know that they lack the political power to affect equality in America .
They are old enough to know that they will face racism every day .
They know that the standards for everything , the opinions on their beauty , worth , and talent will be determined by White Men .
They know they are not welcome to worship in White Churches , live next door in White People and will be the last to get hired.
Perhaps worst of all they know their Country has just displaced the hope of improved fairness for all that our Black President imagined with the despair of knowing an unfit , lying , hate spewing , sexual degrader of women and leader of racists is now Leader of America .
That's how they feel .
3
Nope. Not falling for this, despite those oh so forlorn faces. What did the photographer say to them? "Look sad. No sadder, with a dash of mad." Except for William who just couldn't do it. And why should he?!! "I am super duper smart and I worked my butt off and I got into Stuyvesant and now I have to decide which IVY league school to go to. Woe is me." Kids, you are awesome. Congratulations. You are smart. Don't fall for all the race baiting from adults these days. It pushes us backwards and away from each other.
41
You are missing the point. I am sure they are all proud of what they’ve accomplished.
Imagine if you were the only white student in a top, all black school, you stuck out like a sore thumb, and no one else shared your background and culture. Worse, everybody thinks that your family and all the friends you grew up with are stupid, because if they weren’t, they’d be more of them in the school too. They see you as an aberration. Do you feel lonely, alienated, objectified? Don’t! You’re pretty smart for a white guy— in fact you’re like the only one smart enough to make it to this school!
I am a white woman who comes from the BX public schools (Co-op City's M.S. 181 to be exact) and got into Stuyvesant. I am against "dumbing down" the test or making admission based on grades because it would dilute the intellectual power of the population. What we need is much better regular schools all around. The entire appeal of Stuyvesant is the academic rigor and that would disappear when teachers teach to the bottom of the class or those students would just fail out, which is obviously undesirable.
232
@Stephanie: It is so sad that you don't see that the issue is not "intellectual power" but that the schools African Americans attend have substandard teachers and teaching. It is about the fact that only 3% of Stuyvesant are "Black." That alone proves that the schools in black areas are failing to educate out children.
8
@Stephanie three of my children attended 181, as part of the talented and gifted program. My oldest child there, made it into, and attended the High School of American Studies, but she was also part of the last cohort that was afforded a fully funded enrichment program.
Unless things have changed, that program is a shell of what it used to be, and the results are out there for all to see.
All primary and middle schools should have advanced programming and after school enrichment programs. The racial imbalance in these schools is downright criminal, and now we have kids in there, who echo their parents' sentiments, that black and Hispanic children are undeserving of admission.
The Dept of Education is doing a serious disservice to our children, and they are setting them up for failure.
12
I would like to see an article about the NYC students of color who are admitted to elite prep (boarding) schools via Prep for Prep every year. I would also like to see an article about the students of color who are recruited to NYC's independent day schools from NYC's public schools. You can't evaluate admissions at the specialized schools without accounting for the students who are funneled into these programs.
4
The horrible answer is that quality public education is still segregated whether it be in the affluent suburbs or in New York City.
1
Not one o f the kids recommended getting rid of the entrance exam. Getting more kids into the funnel to strive for Stuy, yes.
15
I grew up middle class until I was 10, then next to a housing project until I was 15, and went to a junior high and high school that was majority minority (weird phrase, isn't it?)
I work on the technical side in IT, which is more merit based, and also more diverse than many other well paid professions. Almost all of my friends and colleagues who are black or hispanic came from middle class or wealthier backgrounds, or were 1st or 2nd generation immigrants from intact families.
If children attending public schools in economically depressed neighborhoods rife with social problems, most of whom are black or hispanic, had access to the same resources as their more advantaged peers - schools properly funded and maintained, highly qualified teachers, tutors, etc.), a much higher percentage of them would pass the same exam taken by the students attending Stuyvesant today.
3
When I was new to this country 30 years ago, I didn't know about the elite high schools either. Non of the teachers informed me.
May be a poster with elite high schools info should be posted in all off the classrooms. It sounds cheesy, but you never know.
4
@Lucky Post it in the subways! Along with the smiling faces of the kids that got in. NYC department of health has ads posted about the Flu each season. Why doesn't the DOE do the same regarding the exam? Seems like a no brainer to me.
4
I can empathize with how they feel. Really! But if the author has repeatedly written articles focusing on the validity and fairness of the test, the obvious question she should have asked these kids is what they think of the test. Do they think the test should be scraped, or whether the kids who be given more information early on by the schools so that they could prepare better. When it's convenient, the author decided to ignore the question all together.
6
March madness: the ever more depressing announcements of admission to NYC's elite high schools. Imagine if the other phenomenon known as March Madness also used a single criterion to decide who gets to participate. Imagine that the only men's and women's teams invited were those who won their conference. That's not so far fetched and that's how baseball postseason was determined until the advent of the wild card. The use of multiple criteria means that teams that know they are eliminated from winning their league continue to play hard, learn from their mistakes, and excel until the end of the season. Knowing that at large selections are based on "holistic" admissions criteria, teams create the most challenging schedule possible, for example. They know they will be regarded for getting a few "B" grades if the lose by a few points to a higher rated team. Holistic admissions can run amok, as we've seen in recent college admission scandals. But they also lead students to balance their lives, challenge themselves with tough classes, not freak out if they get a B in one of those classes. It also allows the system as a whole to reward different kinds of success - class rank, perfect attendance, great writing, extracurricular excellence in arts, science fairs and more. Stuy's reliance on a single criterion does not only hurt those who did not get in, it also harms many of the single-focused young people who did.
2
An elite school will no long be elite if it doesn't have elite students.
11
One of the things that stands out is that the curriculum and the teachers at the elite schools offer a deeper and more comprehensive educational experience than at most other high schools.
New York needs to offer that same quality at other schools. High schools should be smaller. Teachers should have time to spend with students and counseling should be of high quality for everyone.
The mayor should offer those who oppose a diversity programs for the elite schools a choice. If you believe in merit, fine. Let's make real opportunity available for more students of color and do it by putting our money where our mouth is.
6
@Drspock
You probably didn't attend one of these inner city schools. Many of these kids have trouble with basic math and English. Good luck with teaching them Calculus when they have trouble with basic arithmetic. For the few who are gifted, there are honor classes for them. I think the politicians like to blame the schools and teachers for all the failures. In reality, the parents play a much more important role in their children's educational success.
15
I can't help but notice, half of the kids in this article are kids from immigrant or mixed race homes. There is some advantage that is conferred upon them by that. The reality is that the Black Americans who are not getting into Stuyvesant are those whose families have suffered from generations of poverty, inequality, and the legacy of our racist past. Our country has to start making up for this legacy through deep investment and reparations in African American communities that have been trapped in a horrible cycle of marginalization and despair. Preparing these students to make it through the entrance exam has to start before middle school and has to be a multilayered intervention.
11
@Mrs B Definitely - at the VERY LEAST though, around 5-6th grade all kids should be informed that these schools exist and that there is a test to get into them! Basic information about the test, that it is given in the fall of 8th grade, how to sign up for the test, and a test prep booklet to bring home to parents would by itself go a long way.
Out of 85,000 or so 8th graders each year in NYC around 60,000 are black or hispanic (70%) but only around 12,000 even took the test, around 1/5. The rest of the test takers were predominantly white and Asian. So more than half of the test takers represent only 30% of the kids in the schools. That needs to change - many more kids should be encouraged to take the test.
There's WAY too much about these schools that depend on the parents already knowing all about them and devoting resources to test prep.
2
They hit the nail on the head. Diversity would happen if more kids knew about the exam ahead of time and were encouraged (and given the opportunity) to prepare for it. The problem isn't the exam itself. Not only that, they would get in on an equal footing with all of the other students - based solely on merit. The specialized schools are highly competitive, which makes the students work harder. The competition starts with the exam. My parents didn't know about Stuyvesant. It was my public school that sent me to take the exam so I was lucky. My parents weren't rich (each worked 2 jobs to pay the bills). I didn't have any outside test prep. I know that it's tougher now, but as evidenced in the article, there are ways to study for the exam without having rich parents. Just hope more kids from all over realize what a great opportunity it is and are encouraged to go for it.
4
I am a recent graduate of Bronx Science. (Yes, I made the commute from Brooklyn to the Bronx for four years!) I am also Latina, but white-passing (most people assume I am Italian). What the kids said in this article matched what other black students whom I talked to said about why there were so few black people in the school - that there is a lack of knowledge that the test even exists among the general community, and those who do know it exists do not make it a focus. What needs to happen is intense community outreach. Free test prep is already offered in many places to these communities, so now more people need to be encouraged to take advantage of that opportunity.
This article also highlights why I dislike Affirmative Action. I got into an Ivy League college. I worked really hard and have good extracurriculars, but I'll never know for certain if I would have gotten in if I was white instead of Latina.
I'll never know if I could've gotten in to my college without my race - but I'll always know and be proud that I got into Bronx Science purely of my own merit.
77
On its website the school states "from its inception the school has served an immigrant population" How does this stand up?
And, what is the admissions test like? What kind of primary education is needed to be ready and prepared for this test? Are the public schools equally preparing students from all neighborhoods?
And how is it that in a city cited as a "melting pot" with a hugely diverse population there are non-European students who still feel uncomfortable?
Learning is supposed to be a vibrant process. I think schools which are somehow selectively "white" are depriving young people of the interaction of many talented and potentially innovative and energetic diverse personalities.
1
The tragedy is that the schools can't "equally prepare" students from every neighborhood if the parents in those neighborhoods don't "equally prepare" their children first.
If you think Stuyvesant is "selectively white" it's likely that you haven't really been following this story.
Identity politics is so corrosive.
Students work hard to get into this elite school, then are made to feel badly because they don't see enough kids of their own race (whatever that means) as classmates.
White students are not the majority, but that's besides the point...
And creating spots for more minority students based on race leads their classmates to wonder if their "8 for 8" ivy school acceptance is a reflection of racial quotas, so they feel badly about that next...
... what are we DOING to ourselves? How about letting the top students gain acceptance based on their actual achievements, and let the racial statistical chips fall where they may?
27
@E
Buckle up for the 2020 election cycle, it is shaping up to be identity politics all the way.
5
"Students work hard to get into this elite school, then are made to feel badly because they don't see enough kids of their own race (whatever that means) as classmates. "
Bingo.
1
@Sarah A
Sounds like we agree...
Encouraging people - especially kids - to feel badly because of how many other people with (or without) similar racial/ethnic features around them is a recipe for a divided society.
Time to stop counting and just get on with living with the ones you're with.
2
Instead of arguing over what is the fair representation of the Blacks at Stuyvesant, let me tell you a little bit about my experience. I attended one of the low performing junior high schools in Lower East Side, where over 80% of the students were Blacks and Hispanics. As a new Asian immigrant, I was frequently the target of bullying in school. Every other day, some kids would call you "Ch**ks." I remembered being robbed when I was playing in the school yard.
So when I heard about the Specialized High Schools, I applied because I wanted to escape from this hell. Without any prep classes, I somehow managed to score high enough to get into Stuyvesant with my limited English.
Even though the junior high school was predominantly Blacks and Hispanics, over 90% of those who got accepted into Specialized High Schools were Asians. The school was just a microcosm of the NYC schools. Given the same resources and opportunities, the immigrant kids just tried harder. There is no easy route to success in life. You have to work hard to earn it.
114
@Daniel Z -- yes, it takes hard word to succeed. This is not what some want to hear.
14
I went to Bronx Science 2 decades ago. I will testify that nobody questioned anyone's admission on any basis what so ever, most especially race. We all took an exam comprised of questions in the basic subjects of Mathematics, Reading Comprehension, and Logical Reasoning. This test is not a boogieman but a vital hand on the pulse of public education in NYC. The fact that
proportionally fewer African American students are admitted, these days, tells me the system failed them well before 8th grade. Anyone with a child in the NYC public school system, as I do, can tell you, it is middle school where everything falls apart. The sheer cliff in quality going from grade school to middle school is inexplicable and needs to be addressed. The test is not the problem; eliminating it is a lazy solution to a complex problem.
541
@B - I went to Bronx Science SIX decades ago. I had exactly the same experience as yours. We took the test, we scored higher than others who took the test, we were accepted. We didn’t do any test prep classes - they didn’t exist. We didn’t have coaching - it didn’t exist. We weren’t affluent - dad was a cab driver, mom was a secretary. Although Progressive whining wasn’t a factor back then, there was muttering about the “domination” of certain ethnic groups (Jews). I was not aware of any effort to exclude anyone. There were no secret codes on the tests to indicate the ethnic, racial, religious, class, or species origin of the test taker - if you scored high enough, you got in. If you didn’t score high enough, you didn’t get in. These schools were intended to be elite institutions. I realize “elite” is currently VERY out of fashion, but it’s been around for a long time (since the dawn of human history). The analogy I like to use is NBA basketball: I’d like to play, but I’m not tall enough, and I’m not very well coordinated. It’s clearly a plot by the “altitude elite” to get all the player positions. So, I’m proposing that whenever I get the ball, the basket is automaticall lowered by three feet, and other players are not allowed to block my shots.
123
@B
Went to Stuy High.
No special prep.
Had a basic parochial education. The teacher announced the opportunity to each class during HS planning, I followed up with her and my parents. Took the test and was admitted.
We students all got there by taking a test, we were nerds and recognized it in each other. We developed affinities based on nerdiness, never race.
43
@B
You wrote, "...it is middle school where everything falls apart. The sheer cliff in quality going from grade school to middle school is inexplicable and needs to be addressed."
I can say from experience that the same truth holds all across the country, and that too often, a community's elementary and high schools are good-to-excellent, but its middle schools do not reach the same standard.
31
I know how I feel. I feel proud of these young people, and glad that they will not have to go through life with the taint of having been selected for their color rather than their intelligence and effort. May the revel in their success, now and forever.
163
@JJ Gross The taint may not be applicable in fact, but that doesn't mean it won't be applied regardless. That's one of the points of the article -- that others assume the taint, which therefore makes it real since it's a social effect, even though it's wrong to do so.
7
@Dani F.
As long as we have affirmative action, there will be a taint. Credentials them selves have no value. The value comes from the talent, hard work, rigor and the exclusivity and fairness of the selection process that defined the credential. If the perception is that the credential was obtained without being fully earned, it will proportionately lower the value of the credential.
17
@Dani F.
But in this case, it's beyond dispute that they met the same standard as everyone else. Other black Stuyvesant alumni have said that gave them confidence and earned them respect in high school and in college.
I didn't end up going to Stuyvesant, but whenever the topic comes up I am proud to say I was accepted. It means something.
9
This article brought back so many memories for me. I am an African-American female who was accepted to both Music and Art and Stuyvesant high schools in 1970. I am also the product of talented and gift programs while in junior high. Can’t stress the importance these programs were for me; so loved orchestra, extra math classes and art. Went to Stuyvesant for a year but found the commute from Queens too taxing, along with a limited female population, and transferred to my neighborhood high school, where I was allowed to skip a grade. The process begins early not just studying for one admission test.
10
There are already affirmative action programs in place that disadvantage white kids. Such as the "Discovery Program", where if you fail the admissions test and are in a low income group, targeted to exclude white kids, you can take a "class" during the summer and then be offered admission to Stuyvesant. 23 students were offered admission to Stuyvesant last year, through this program. No word on their results once they got into the school or any negative affects on the school.
There is also the "DREAM" program that test preps 6th and 7th graders at black and Hispanic areas of the city, at taxpayer expense
Also, don't forget that many black and Hispanic kids are offered full-ride to elite private high schools. Quite a better experience than Stuyvesant. This eliminates them from the pool of Stuyvesant "candidates"
23
@James Nobody questions the white students' presence or admission. But you question those of the minority students.
And taxpayers include black and Latino people.
3
NYC schools are practically segregated. Compared to wealthier schools in Manhattan, the poor mostly minority schools I visited in Brooklyn paled in comparison–in terms of infrastructure, morale, and structure.
Kids weren't penalized if they skipped class or came late, with teachers afraid that authority would push them out the door. One school stopped replacing hand-soap after kids stole the cartridges. There were cockroaches in the cafeteria. Teachers were burdened by disruptive behavior. High school kids had been forced along, unable to conduct basic elementary school math, or read at a junior high level. It was pathetic, and sad to look at a lot of these kids, knowing they have such a stifled chance of success.
I don't support affirmative action because it compromises dignity, but mostly because it's a lazy political alternative to giving poor kids a better shot earlier on in their primary and secondary education. I applaud the hardworking black students who made it to Stuyvesant, but their small numbers should show that the classmates they left behind in the 'outer boroughs' need a better chance at becoming high caliber learners, or at least fully aware of the opportunities available to them.
14
It amazes me that these students are already being told “you only got in because you are black”, when so few black students are actually admitted. I know that the term white privileged is thrown around a lot, but surely that’s it right there, ripe and growing, in the next generation. Only being raised in a racist society would allow anyone to think 29 out of 3,300 is probably too many students of color. Look at the world we have created for these kids. The sickness of racism holds us all back.
2
70% of the student body is Asian. When did they acquire white privilege?
6
Actually the whole point of the story is that nobody is telling them that they only got in because they are Black or Hispanic because the only criterion for getting in is a test which does not factor in race. Nobody can ever tell them that they only got in because they are Black.
Why do the kids in the pic look so glum? They are privileged.
4
@Roy
The kids look glum because they got recruited as foot soldiers in the race war instead of enjoying their privilege and getting on with their education. Thanks to the internet and the publicity they have received, these kids will never know anonymity in their lives again. Maybe the kids already realize this.
4
@Roy because what no one ever mentions in these articles is that going to a specialized HS such as Stuyvesant or BxSci is 4 years of limited sleep and long commutes.
I’m not exaggerating when I say your day starts at 6am and you come back home by 7pm. After dinner, you’ll then have 4 - 6 hours worth of homework. These schools are not easy and some people need to think twice before they even consider if it’s worth their sanity going to these pressure cookers.
1
You don't get accolades without doing more than the average bear. I'll add that this is the schedule of most affluent suburban high schools, as well.
Maybe they feel like they have something in common with 3001 other students. Diversity is not only skin deep.
3
the nyt shd report on other examples of this problem of balancing racial, economic, intellectual achievement and personal qualities when choosing those who will be admitted to a region's most intellectually demanding publically funded high school. surely ny stuyvetsen is not the only such institution in the country that is faced with this problem. How do other such schools in other regions handle this, what do people in those regions propose, find satisfactory, or still criticize abt the way the problem is addressed among them?
Where can I get that fabulous "Black Students League" T shirt? I bet a lot of us would be willing to pay a premium if the proceeds could go to college scholarships for Black and Latino students at Stuyvesant.
2
College scholarships only for the Black and Hispanic kids who go to Stuyvesant? Wow. How about scholarships for every hard-working, low income kid who worked their buns off to get in?
1
Judging from the responses of these students it just goes to show that even bright kids can be brainwashed into buying in to the the politics of victim hood. The bottom line is the test is objective and you either have the brains and as important the motivation to do what it takes to do well or you don't. So now the question becomes do you still want to have a system that nurtures and develops the best and brightest kids in the city or do you want to dumb this down in the name of "equality"?
9
omg, please stop with the "they don't care about education" nonsense. It is an disparaging stereotype about an entire group of people that is just wrong. This is about access. It is not a surprise that there are communities that has "cracked" the code - there is shared knowledge within these communities not only about the very existence of these schools, but about when and how to prepare. And frankly, it is much easier to aspire to something - like attending an elite NYC school -- when it is normal for others like you to achieve it. Meanwhile, as one of these young articulated, no one at her mostly black school knew that Stuyvesant was even an option, let alone had the awareness to prepare for admission. It is hard to pursue something that you don't know about. That she had to google "best schools in new york" in order to learn about Stuyvesant speaks volumes, and is a disgrace.
6
@m
"... no one at her mostly black school knew that Stuyvesant was even an option..."
But really they did, right?
I mean, within hours to days of finding out about it herself, that student would have told her fellow intelligent Junior High School students about her discovery, right? So that, really, they knew about it for exactly as long as she did, and had the same amount of time to prepare, but just weren't interested (or their parents forbade them, as happened to some of my JHS friends).
Or do you posit that she was so cutthroat that she kept her discovery completely to herself so as to eliminate the competition?
1
New York Times should stop treating Africans, Hispanics and Asians as monoliths. Each of these races immigrated from 50 different countries. There is very little in common between a Bangladeshi child of someone who immigrated on the Green Card Lottery and the child of a Korean shopkeeper. There is very little in common between the family of a Chinese Ph.D and a Hmong refugee. Other races have similar differences, when we talk about Hispanics, are we talking about the descendants of the Cuban Mariel boat lift or Mexican farm workers. When we talk about African-Americans, are these children of Jamaican Engineers or native Africa-Americans from the deep south. Fitting all these diverse groups in 3 convenient boxes and then trying to equalize the three boxes is an exercise in sheer folly!
15
@Rahul
Like a Procrustean bed !
So of these black students, how many come from single-parent households? How many do not have parents who immigrated to the United States?
If the black students at Stuyvesant mainly come from black immigrant families with intact two parent families that value education, then they cannot “represent” blacks in New York in general.
12
I'm not sure if it was the author's intention but this article makes an excellent case against Affirmative Action.
These remarkable kids had the motivation to prep for the entrance exams and were accepted to Stuyvesant. Only near the end of the article was there mention that Asian peers came to their defense about their presence at the school.
On the other hand, colleges do weigh race into the equation; to the benefit for blacks but at the expense of Asian-Americans. Not surprisingly this is when the black students felt uncomfortable because the policy basically pits one minority against another. The more Affirmative Action is expanded, the more likely this will brew resentment among the two groups for generations to come.
6
What is very interesting in these sorts of racialist debates is how the 50-50's are classed. The kid who is exactly half African American and half Korean is labelled, and self identfies, as African-American, not Korean-Asian.
Maybe, like De Blasio hinted, you should try our Texas Ten Percent system for half of admissions for 5 years and see what happens.
Since there will be many more 10-percenters than can be admitted, a lotttery will be needed. Any sort of testing, teacher evaluation, etc. will just lead to different kinds of gaming the system.
1
Any sort of testing, teacher evaluation, etc. will just lead to different kinds of gaming the system.
And grade-based admissions won't?
1
Hey, Eliza Shapiro,
Sure let us go and be more racist,, and more divisive. Let us look for worms under the rocks.
How about a story on how 800 students studied hard and gained entrance to an excellent school. I don't care what colour they are. That they showed integrity and determination, and hard work to rise to a level of high achievement. That is the story.
The story is not that 29 out of 3300 have a mixed race parentage. You cannot point to even one out of 3300 that is not a mixed cultural American. We all are. I am Irish and Lithuanian. One girl there is Swedish and Nigerian. Or? Amerind, Moroccan, Jewish, Italian. Our pride in this country is as a 'melting pot',, and we are the stronger and the better for it.
Entrance should be colour blind,, based solely upon academic achievement. Symphonies across the nation have embraced a behind the curtain audition procedure for new members and competitions for 1st chair or Concert Master or Mistress. I know of one instance where the winner of the competition for Concert Master, and violin soloist,, was won by a beautiful blonde bombshell in her mid 20's. Trust me. For a classical symphony major national orchestra,, had there been no curtain,, she would never, never, never have been chosen.
That the competition was based solely upon merit, she got the job.
And so should these students.. not just 29,, but all,, all, I repeat, 3300.
Get a new job
This is a non story. It does not aid,, it just divides.
27
We should listen to these smart and articulate children who have all shown great personal drive to be at Stay. I hope every one of them has been back to their middle school to spread the word. The BOE is failing broadly in teaching ambition and opening eyes to opportunities. There is clearly a community of parents supporting and encouraging their kids to achieve in numbers that cannot be questioned.
47
As a African American woman who grew up in the affluent suburbs of a major city (not NYC) and never had another person of color in class with me from K-12, I cannot stress how important diversity is in one's formative years. I am a successful business professional, with a Masters degree now living in NJ suburbs, but neither myself or any of my three siblings have returned to a high school reunion because of the racism and cultural insensitivities we experienced as teenagers. I even had a Guidance counselor 'counsel me' to attend a state school versus Ivy league because she felt that "it would be a better fit." Academics in high school (as college applications are designed to demonstrate) are only one indicator of the overall potential success of a student. Students need to feel as if they belong, supported and accepted as they grow and learn. Diversity and exposure to diverse cultures within one's school environment are as critical in high school as it is now being prioritized and sought after within corporate culture.
135
@dogma vat Not likely. You should try living her experience. I had one very close to it; Cathy is spot on. Diversity is important.
19
@dogma vat -No actually I largely attribute our success to the nurturing and closely knit church family environment we belonged to. It was made up of African American professional and working class families (made up of college professors, mail carriers, businessmen and women) who modeled their values and instilled their morals into us so that we grew up and succeed despite the targeted racism. It takes a village to raise a child!
40
@Cathy
I'm also African-American, got into Stuyvesant, and went to Ivy League schools. Most black people have had to contend with the phenomenon of being one of a few in elite institutions and settings. It's not fun. Still, the solution is not to admitted lesser-qualified people simply for diversity's sake. Black people do not exist to provide flavor to other people's educational experiences.
The admissions test for the Specialized High Schools has been used for decades. Stuyvesant started using a test in 1934. Black people have passed it in greater numbers of the past. The individuals who want to dumb down the test, scrap the test, or admit students from schools all over the City without acknowledging that the schools are not equal in quality are putting politics and a desire for a quick fix over maintaining the quality of elite schools. They are ignoring the root problem, which is the quality of the lower schools.
21
I am a child of affirmative action. I graduated from HS in 1970. My single mother supported my brother and me by working for the federal government. Her salary was low enough that we qualified for subsidized housing, aka the projects. I went to a small Catholic school and, with the help of the nuns, got into a prominent Catholic high school.
My grades were okay. 90 average. 1260 on SAT's. Coming from a "disadvantaged" background, and with the help of many, I received a full scholarship to a small, prestigious university in Virginia that I probably would not have qualified for under other circumstances.
The only difference in my story from many others of that era is that I am white.
With all my supposed disadvantages, it has been obvious to me throughout my life that I have had a counterbalancing advantage of being white. I have no problem calling it "white privilege." The idea that there are only seven African American students in the city of New York who "have what it takes" to attend Stuyvesant strains credulity. The idea that one ethnic group "works harder" than another is an insult to all groups.
As a society, we need to make a commitment to making these kinds of educational opportunities available to a broader range of students who face "disadvantages" in their young lives. Educators and politicians need to find better ways to identify deserving students and place them in schools like Stuyvesant where they have much to offer beyond the highest academic credentials.
6
The kids' stories suggest that if teachers and guidance counselors in all city schools were instructed on how to tell their students about high school entrance exams, and provide some guidance on how to prepare, we'd start to fix the problem. Not knowing that the opportunity exists and what the steps are, is 90 percent of the barrier to entry for many kids. I'd try that before killing the test, which at least tries to eliminate wealth and personal contacts as determinants of who gets in.
5
The Mayor and Schools Chancellor should be exploring why low income Asian American children are over achieving when many of them are low income and NYC public schools as a whole seem to be under performing. In a February Times article the Mayor ended a 773 million dollar plan which gave more funding to failing schools. I dislike the insinuation that Asian American families are mainly rich and academic robots. Maybe the people who are quick to want to desegregate schools should understand that the City's own findings suggest doing well on the test correlates to doing well in terms of GPA, the regent's test and other standardized exams, but that has been repeatedly suppressed by a Mayor looking to score a political victory. Also I am not sure sure why paying for extra tutoring should be seen as a negative. Asian American families are sacrificing their time and money to ensure their kids succeed in a failing school system. It should send a message to non Asian American families that if you put in the time and effort, you will reap the rewards academically and economically.
16
Reading these students' responses, I am struck by how the entrance exam seems to be so poorly publicized. Teachers and guidance counselors in middle school should be able to identify gifted students and push them and their parents to prepare and take the test.
I understand resources can be limited in some of these middle schools and many students and parents don't have the time and money for prep courses. However, these students made it work and it seems that they are set up for at least the opportunity of success.
As an aside, I am always disappointed in how the arguments are made that the admissions exam is the 'fairest' way to determine who belongs in these schools. Standardized tests have been too long used as a quick and easy way to weed out who does and does not belong, and this comes from someone who is pretty good at standardized test taking.
2
I am a very recent graduate of one of the big 3. I also came through one of the [free] test prep programs then offered to low-income students based on middle-school test results. For what it is worth, I am also black. This was my life for four years.
There seems to be two pretty significant assumptions here on the part of most commentators and most journalists: that "best" logically means "most desirable," and that "best" logically means "best for all."
I went on to an Ivy, fairly typical among the black students with whom I graduated. My time at the school easily ranked among the loneliest years of my life.
There are plenty of students I know from my DREAM-SHSI and JHS days far more academically talented than I was who simply opted out of taking the test entirely, or if their parents forced them, as was done with my younger sister, showed up the day of the exam and slept. Of this year's students actually admitted to Stuy & co., I suspect no small percentage of them will either turn down the offer or be snatched away by a Dalton, et. al.
You may find this hard to believe, but by the age of 13 students know better than their parents and oftentimes their educators. Some of those same students who opted out of the SHSAT because they knew a BxSci was not a good fit for them culturally or otherwise went to on to do just fine at a Murrow, Goldstein, et al. and would later be among my university classmates. This situation will not be improved if we do not listen to the kids.
15
@NT-5000 Well said. I really wish schools like Murrow and Goldstein would get more press. Murrow is very diverse and also sends kids to a huge variety of colleges, from elite to community.
2
For me, as an immigrant, knowing the type of work ethic that was drilled into my siblings and myself by my parents, I would say the least surprising aspect of this article is the fact that the interviewed students are, by and large, either first or second generation immigrants. I would bet that for a large chunk of the Asian students at Stuy, the same holds true.
The question is how does one go about lighting a similar fire under someone's behind if their family has been here for generations?
50
@Realist. I agree with above comments that we need to listen more carefully to young people, who are directly living these experiences and in many cases are making better informed decisions about where they will thrive. My son graduated from Stuyvesant in the 1970’s, the last class to graduate from the old building (although the ceremony was actually at Avery Fisher). I raised my 2 children as a white minority in then all-Black Fort Greene. My son had some Black friends at Stuy, but mostly Asian (including members of scary gangs, one of whom was killed). Even back then, many of our Black neighbors were realistic/cynical about their children’s chances of feeling comfortable/accepted at a place like Stuy. My 11 year old granddaughter recently took the Boston Latin test, along with many of her Black and Latino friends, many of whom were accepted. The ones who choose to attend seem to be from recent immigrant families, and not from families of color who have grown up here in still terribly racist Boston because they know from the news and from friends that Boston Latin School is still very racist. At least Boston Latin Academy (same test but slightly lower score) appears to be more happily integrated. The solution lies in our society as a whole. School systems need to step up and do their part, but we can’t expect them alone to undo the racist exploitation on which our country was founded, especially not these days with blatant racism espoused from our so-called government.
5
Students have a significant advantage if:
1. They have highly verbal parents, specifically highly verbal English-speaking parents, enabling them to experience a high-verbal environment from the day they arrive into this world.
2. Have parents who value education and academic success.
3. Attend a stimulating daycare or pre-K program with highly verbal teachers.
4. Live in a home where conversation and reading are celebrated.
5. Are surrounded by peers who value reading, studying, and learning.
Test-taking requires a battery of skills, not the least of which is the ability to read quickly and comprehend quickly. You can't do that if you don't practice doing that. You're more likely to do that if you're enmeshed in an environment that emphasizes it.
The state in which I live has a significant and stubborn achievement gap between white students and everybody else, and that includes Asian-Americans, who are largely recent immigrants from southeast Asia.
You can't give students different parents or different homes, but you can make high quality pre-K programs accessible to everyone. That's where I would start.
10
@Larry
Many of the Asian students in Stuyvesant, against whom the Mayor is trying to discriminate (and many when I attended over forty years ago) have immigrant parents who speak no or little English.
It doesn't matter in this case. These people, students and their parents, all understand that a good education can bring you success, and know that they have to work for it.
Things in Minnesota may be as you describe, but we have seen for decades here in New York that children who speak foreign languages at home can be, and often are, extremely successful
@Larry "1. They have highly verbal parents, specifically highly verbal English-speaking parents, enabling them to experience a high-verbal environment from the day they arrive into this world."
Is this true for the overwhelmingly Asian immigrant families of SHS students? It is not.
My kids didn’t do any costly test preparation to get into Stuyvesant. They did several practice tests from a book that cost around $20 at Barnes and Noble. What they did was go to public elementary and middle schools that taught them math to a level that allowed them to perform well on the test. The test is not racist: it’s academic. But public middle schools that actually teach children academic subjects are apparently rare. Why aren’t there more?
A kid in the article had to google to find Stuyvesant. How is this a problem with Stuyvesant, rather than with a school the child was at before?
How many of these kids are children of immigrants from cultures that sees education as valuable path to opportunity?
The way to have more African-American and Latinx kids getting into Stuyvesant is to pour resources into K-8 public education. Also, into housing, healthcare, access to food, daycare, job creation etc for people hurt by centuries of slavery and systemic discrimination. But reparations are expensive, while the PR move of altering the admission process to this elite HS is literally cheap.
One can argue against the concept of having such thing as “academic elite” when it comes to children: “just let them breathe”. But I would argue the opposite. It’s inspiring to kids to be directed and to work hard, and adolescence is the best time for learning.
55
@Anna. Thank you.
3
Some parents are gaming the system and creating a false meritocracy.
Tests for admission to schools and programs were designed to ascertain the ability of children based on a common background. When children receive extensive tutoring and test preparation, their scores are not indicative of their true potential and they are thus less able to succeed in competitive programs without continued support; they take space from those who can.
'Grinds' have come to dominate in fields such as medicine, research and computer science where creativity and intuition are necessary to achieve the best results. Due to this, we may fall behind those countries who put a greater emphasis on creativity and intuition in their admissions process.
6
@Allen
Preparing for a test is not "gaming the system". In fact, to do well at most of these schools, students need to be very good at test taking and figuring out what to study and how to answer questions in the way that the teachers want them to.
10
@DA1967Oh, so they have to have skills that enable them to be successful in whatever they do in life.
1
@Allen "Tests for admission to schools and programs were designed to ascertain the ability of children based on a common background."
You're under the impression that the test was designed to favor kids of Asian immigrants, many of whom barely speak English? Because there are tons of those kids at Stuyvesant H.S. Even decades ago, that school was always heavily attended by first- and second-generation immigrants, many from poor, non-English speaking households.
NYC should start to address the problem by aggressively getting the word out to schools and neighborhoods where few people know about and apply to these elite schools.
A test like this is more likely to promote equity than any subjective system, in which who you know and how much money you have will tend to become important factors in admissions. For evidence, see the Ivys.
4
It's great to give voice to these students. But shouldn't the the NYT have asked the obvious question: what do these students think of policies aimed at creating more diversity, such as replacing competitive exams with representation from top students across all middle schools? Why do they think they succeeded? And would such policies undermine/undervalue their own achievements? No question there has to be equality of awareness and opportunity, but I suspect these kids worked their tails off, the same as every one of the of the kids who gained admission.
22
@Ben
It's likely that Ms. Shapiro talked to them about that but the responses didn't conform to the narrative she wants. Certainly, many of their statements in the article imply they are in favor of the test as the measure for admissions, but that true commitment to educating students in K-8 and providing support to them in the specialized high school admissions process is needed from the DOE.
11
Learning and studying are usually very hard tasks for most humans, and so, talking about the value of education and lobbying for more money for education are far easier than getting students of all racial backgrounds to develop important habits associated with learning most subjects. These habits cannot be developed if there is no demand by parents that their children engage in basic educational activities such as reading, and constantly learning inside and especially outside of the classroom. There is frustration at seeing such low numbers of children from certain backgrounds at elite public schools, but will the frustration be directed positively towards getting low performing students to stop watching so many hours of television, put away the phones and end the Facebook time to start the very hard process of developing good study habits?
5
@Isle I really do not think you read the article. The young adults clearly stated they had peers who were just as smart and hard working as them, but were not given the same opportunity of applying to the elite schools like Stuyvesant. I think you are placing too much weight on TV and social media and not enough of the structural inequality that is keeping the children of inner city America down.
4
In the black community there is a fear among young people being seen as acting like "whitey". Which in many cases means that studying hard and standing out in school wherever they may be is asking for trouble. Most kids want to fit in and if that means not doing your homework and flunking your tests its the price you pay to be accepted by your peers.
17
70% of the students in NY are Black and Hispanic. 20% of students are White. Maybe someone else can do the math, but it appears to me that if only 1% of Stuyvesant students are Black and Hispanic, this is not a case where elite private schools get all the best Black and Hispanic students leaving plenty of space for free education to White students at Stuyvesant. This also does not make economic sense since Black and Hispanic people have significantly lower incomes. They should not have to pay for private schools while the wealthier White people get the free education.
2
I’m tired of the “Black “ thing. I’m tired of every minority and religious group’s self pity and persecution complex. It’s ruining this country and has become the mantra of the Democratic Party. I’m trying to support the Democrats as a centrist but it’s getting more difficult every time a candidate for President in the Democratic Party opens his or her mouth.
18
@Bill
Envy, entitlement and persecution have always been the bedrock of Democrat politics. It just seems a little more prevalent this year because social media amplify and disseminate the noise, with a lot of help from America's "papers of record."
1
@Bill you're not half as tired of the black thing as minorities are of white racism. Trust and believe that!
5
@Jack Wallace, Jr.
How about a real investigative article on why the school's demographic is the way it is. We realize the test itself doesn't discriminate, so why not focus on what is causing the disparity? Is it like many Asian Americans say and it's representative of a desire or lack thereof to go to the school, or something else?
Why does the NYT have such a focus on the school, recently? I don't see the benefit in that, other than as a human interest story.
7
@Frank Scully The numbers don't show a lack of desire. For example, 5,730 black kids and 5,139 white kids took the test. Only 207 and 1,344, respectively, scored high enough to get spots. What do you make of this?
2
Elite schools are just that. there is nothing wrong with the admissions test. What is wrong is that too few middle schoolers are encouraged to prep for the test and to take it. That rests squarely on the BOE . DeBlasio should stop trying to tinker with the process and start helping kids strive for excellence.
20
Why do these articles never mention the racial composition of students taking the test? Do many black students take the test? What is the breakdown of test takers and their scores by race? Stuyvesant is one of eight highly selective HS, and the hardest to get into. How many black kids place into the other selective schools?
22
@Alberto here are the numbers
https://admissionsquad.org/blog/2018/8/1/shsat-results-by-race-2018-vs-2017
"Systemic racism" is most emphatically not the cause. Sure, there probably is some racism in the mix, but is it the only explanation? That is doubtful. Look at Asian students, many of whom speak English as a second language. In spite of that challenge, many somehow manage to excel. Why? Many Asian cultures value education and see education as a means of overcoming all kinds of barriers, including racism. The educational divide will continue for African Americans as long as minority parents teach their children that education is not important and that the reason they don't excel in school is due to racism. Change those attitudes and we will not only see improvement. Just stand back and watch African American students thrive!
21
@Glenn Thomas
If one starts with the assumption that the system is racist, one must also assume that the predominant power in that system seeks to maintain status quo, thus, the people are racist as well. And if they are racist as a group, they are probably racist as individuals. So we have the inescapable conclusion that whites are racist, and stack the deck against everyone else, actively working against the interests of any other ethnic group. Except for the inconvenient fact that Asians overachieve statistically. So maybe, it's not a case of racism. Maybe it's a case of each individual caring about their own experiences, and not wanting to be taxed harder to support someone else's aspirations when that population does not attach the same importance to academic achievement. Look what happened to Lori Loughlin's kid - was that money well spent?
2
Graduated Stuyvesant many years ago. Never had test prep per se (but there was constant testing in the public schools) other than encouragement from home and teachers to read broadly, and to enjoy solving logic problems, math problems, cryptograms, and crossword puzzles. Music was taught in the public schools in those days, which definitely helped me become good at math. It did not hurt my test-taking skills, in my opinion, that we spoke a different language than English at home. I suspect the structure of the entrance test, and the nature and quality of the questions and problems, have changed in such a way as to skew it toward the result we now are experiencing
3
You do well and pass the test and you an get in. If this gets watered down, what are you left with? Quotas that keep certain people out and let the less qualified in.
Not every group is equally represented in every endeavor of life!
18
The majority of the kids featured are mixed race or the children of immigrants. Interesting.
27
@Vassie In other words - most of those kids got into Stuy for the exact same reasons as all the other kids who got into Stuy - living in a nurturing and academically stimulating environment. That's pretty certain about those who live in Park Slope, and even though the article doesn't mention it, the parents of immigrant children could have been college-educated professionals back in Nigeria or Kenya. That's not very surprising. Of course, there are exceptions - like the kid from public housing who defied all odds, and still got accepted.
I think no one denies that at this point, besides intelligence, academic stimulation and hard work are the most important ingredients for admission success, but people have different opinions on what to do about it. Decreasing the importance of those two indicators in admission vs increasing their value throughout NYC population are two possible approaches. Aside of the question which one is better, I think there's no doubt about which one is easier and cheaper.
5
So, white students comprise 15 percent of the the total New York City school system, and 20 percent of the Stuyvesant student body is white. There doesn't seem too much of a fairness problem here: the student body is 80% students of color.
9
@Dante. But not descendents of slaves.
@Edy Rees Ah, so this is an issue of reparations. I don't believe that the article mentioned this. Thanks for clearing this up, though.
1
@Edy Rees
"But not descendents of slaves."
Were there not slaves in China?
Were there not slaves in India?
Were there not slaves in the Arabic world?
Does not the Times print stories of Asian immigrants living in the US under conditions of near- or actual slavery?
Or are American slaves the only slaves that count?
The only "real slaves"?
1
A different perspective. I am a Hunter High alum of Asian ethnicity. Not Stuy, I know.
It is not about the test. You see, Asians desperately want to get out and to get in. Chinatowns are slums. New immigrants arrive and, with any luck, and a great deal of work, their kids make it out. They come here because they want their kids to get in, into an imagined mainstream America, dog, picket fence and all. Most don't come to this country for themselves but for the opportunities that are available to their children. They accept poverty, isolation, brutal labor as the price they pay for those opportunities. My mother, while not a tigress, would reinforce academic focus with "you don't want to end up a cook like your father, do you?". Academic success is the main ticket out. Kids in Chinatowns are largely living in poverty after all. No family money. No property. Chinatowns are communities but transient ones. Kids move out, even to the UWS or Connecticut. Sticking around is failure (unless you ridiculously overpay to live the hipster life in a tenement building, then you are also stupid). So we study hard because we don't want to live in Chinese slums, but so that we can become Americans. The same dynamics may not apply to other groups. Nor, the same opportunities. Where institutionalized racism likely plays a role is that some groups may not see any hope of being allowed to join the mainstream, to escape marginalization, so they don't even try. It is not about the test.
181
@The F.A.D.
"I am a Hunter High alum of Asian ethnicity. Not Stuy, I know."
When I went to Stuy, we respected the Hunter kids and considered them to be honorary Stuyvies, as they were easily our equals. I trust it is still the same today.
3
The TImes should also interview the large number of black students who have scholarships to the New York's elite private schools.
10
If you want affirmative action for admissions to Yale and Harvard, you don’t really get to complain about folks suspecting that you got in because of affirmative action.
22
These students are privileged to go to such a school.
I hope they take advantage
Sure beats the local underachieving school they would be in if not Stuyvesant
4
Equity needs to be restored to the demographics of the student population in the elite public schools. When a majority of the students come from a minority of the population, the majority of the population needs to change the system to make it equitable. Black and Hispanic politicians should be leaders in this battle.
22
@Robert Pryor
There are few who would disagree that it would be better for the schools and the students if there were more African-American and Latinx students in the specialized schools, but the question that is being debated is how to cause that to happen. Most people want that happen without impacting the quality of the schools and without unfairly or arbitrarily disadvantaging other students. Improving K-8 education and providing extra support for the admissions process is a win-win solution. But that is hard, hard work and costly, and some politicians and bureaucrats would rather take an easier path that ignores the interests of other students and risks adversely affecting the schools themselves. The fact that, in the past, a greater percentage of students at these schools were African-American and/or came from the currently disadvantaged middle schools shows that the old system worked, where tracking allowed for appropriate-level teaching and learning.
22
@Robert Pryor
Equity? Equity for what,, or who? Equity for all individuals? Or equity for someone because 23% or 68% or 12% of their DNA come from an ancestor from Lithuania. Look at the faces in the photo,, test their DNA,, Italian? Moroccan? Swedish? Ashkenazim? Amerind? Indian? Nigerian? And from when? 2 centuries ago? 4 centuries ago?
What DNA percentage will qualify for special treatment?
Or how about a written test,, with no reference to ethnicity,, maybe even nameless,,, just achievement.
Equitable? Merit based.
31
@Deanalfred We do not pass or fail on tests, we pass or fail in life. Having a school with a diverse student body is important in training students how to succeed in life.
3
There remains one problem nobody want to mention. Among many black and latin kids, doing well in school is derided as acting white A student doing real well in school is subjected to a great deal of peer pressure. What are we doing about this?
24
I too notice the strong immigrant component in these students who worked harder to get in. This article should've gone further to explore the root cause of unequal outcome vs. unequal opportunity.
12
DiBlasio & co should instead ask what is wrong with the elementary schools and middle schools in NYC that these are defaulting in their obligations to children of all races and socioeconomic backgrounds. Tinkering with admissions standards at the specialized high schools does not fix the root causes but instead will destroy the very few places left in this city where individual hard work continue to be rewarded.
39
I think we need to get over this idea that "hard work" will solve our societal problems. It is a fallacy. Does no one ask why it's fair that poor or minority kids need to work so much harder than privileged kids, many of which get a Stuyvesant-level education at their local public schools or at private schools? If an egalitarian society is our goal, why is this a good thing?
The Stuy students I know personally share a saying that is popular at the school: "Grades, friends, sleep: At Stuy, you can have two." They tell of hours of homework each night , cheating by students who fear not keeping up, and many profess to not really be happy there.
Why do the adults running the show encourage this kind of competition? Where is it all going? Why is this a "prize" we want for our kids?
Full disclosure: I'm a 1st-gen immigrant from one of those cultures that "values education". I feel like I "won" the American education game, big-time. I had a free-ride at excellent colleges all the way to a professional degree. I didn't go to a SHS for the very reasons outlined above, and I never took a test-prep course in my life. Instead, I tried to experiment and find subjects I was passionate about, often off-the-beaten path ones like the arts or poetry. I spent summers working in neighborhood stores, an education unto itself. Or relaxing, or traveling on a budget. I know I'm from a different generation, but I found that these are precisely the qualities that got me into a great college.
6
It would be instructive if the New York Times dug a little deeper into the backgrounds of the African-American and Hispanic children. What would be revealing to know if the students who qualified had American born parents or Immigrant parents. If it were the latter, those families are not very different from the families of the Asian-American children that qualified. This is a problem with the whole affirmative-action program in general, the benefits of affirmative action are mainly going to children of immigrant Africans and immigrant Hispanics, most of whom immigrated to the US with advanced degrees in science and technology, are already in the white collar work force, and should not be beneficiaries of affirmative action.
5
@Rahul
Affirmative action is not an issue at these schools. All the students take a standardized test and acceptance is based on strictly test scores.
But I do think many of the Hispanic and Black students are children of immigrants from the Caribbean, Africa and South and Central Americas--my and my husband's family are prime examples. my .
1
This article is a whole lot of nothing. That students are taunted for getting into college because of race is not the fault of the high school test, but the race preferences at the colleges. It is, objectively, much easier for black students to get into Ivy League schools. That’s wrong.
26
@DRS If it's so much easier for black students to get into the Ivy League, then why are there still so few at Yale, Harvard, etc.? By your logic, there should be a much higher percentage of those students than there is currently, but Harvard's class of 2022--- which is claiming a record for diversity--- is still only 10.7% black. 46% are white and 21.9% are asian/south asian. How many of the 46% are legacies who actually, objectively have the easiest chance of getting in? Where's the outrage there?
It's unfortunately that even when black kids take and pass the same test as everyone else, their accomplishments are minimized as just a result of affirmative action.
1
@Res Ipsa absolutely. No matter how black people achieve success it is always treated with suspicion.
It seemed that every African-American mentioned in the story had at least one parent from a vastly different culture. Korea, Eritrea, and Nigeria I think. Is this really about race, or more about family culture?
How about if the Times interviewed 100 substitute teachers and asked them to rate the various schools they teach in by student interest in education? Could there be a connection between students attention to their own education and achievement?
Rather than just focusing on Stuyvesant, what is the percentage of Black and Hispanic students being admitted to all the high schools using the test?
Lastly, are Black and Hispanic students being recruited to private schools? How many? How many Asian-Americans get a free ride at those same schools?
20
There are a lot of Asian kids that get in, don't come from wealth, English is a second language for their parents, parents are working long days, yet they still get in. So what is the problem? Stop complaining and study harder. The test has no racial bias and neither does admissions. Isn't that what everyone wants?
129
@Not 99pct, I generally agree, but I rather than casting someone or something as the scapegoat for the under-representation of blacks and Latinos at Stuyvesant, why don't we just learn from this and just try to do better. First and foremost, I don't understand why Stuyvesant has to be located in one of the most wealthy/white parts of Manhattan. Why didn't they open such an elite high school in the Bronx or the namesake neighborhood in Brooklyn? I suspect that for many struggling New Yorkers in the outer boroughs, TriBeCa/Manhattan/elite education are concepts that seem to be from another planet. Perhaps if these schools were actually in the most neglected neighborhoods, the idea of educational and economic advancement would become more tangible and within reach.
1
@Ed There is an elite school in Bronx, it's called Bronx Science. Their admissions is the same way: take a test, race blind. There's a couple of them in Brooklyn: Brooklyn Tech and Brooklyn Latin, both very elite. For whatever reason the media focus has been on Stuyvesant.
10
What comes across here is that what is needed is not the Mayor's destructive plan to water down entrance requirements, but better opportunities for black and Hispanic students. That could comprise systematically identifying talented students and offering them gifted and talented education, and test prep.
By way of contrast, De Blasio's plan attempts to solve the problem with racism and reduced requirements, essentially destroying the elite schools in order to pretend that something has been accomplished.
400
@Josh Hill Could you please elaborate on how De Blasio’s plan to let the top students from schools all around NYC is racist? And how does this plan “water down” admissions and destroy elite schools?
Personally, I believe other elite schools across the nation (public and private, HS and college) have better systems in place to find top students.
It is possible on the SHSAT to get a top score in one subject and poor scores in another an beat out the students who get excellent scores in both. It is possible for a student to get mediocre grades in middle school ace the test and secure a place at Stuy or another elite NYC HS.
It appears to me as if the admissions process as it stands currently does not discern who is the brightest and the best.
6
@Ann
Anecdotally, attempts across the country to water down requirements, e.g., for gifted and talented programs or AP and honors classes, merely destroy the programs, as teachers are forced to slow instruction for fear of leaving less qualified students behind. Accounts of this abound and they are uniformly compelling.
And when standards are maintained and unqualified students admitted, the unqualified students fail and then feel that they have let down their families.
I agree that the current system doesn't always identify the brightest and best, but the solution to that isn't to eliminate standards (so great are the disparities that the "best students" at an inadequate junior high school are not prepared for a school like Stuyvesant), but rather to a) find students who actually can thrive at the elite schools -- something de Blasio's racist proposal doesn't do and b) give talented students in socieoconomically disadvantaged districts an opportunity to study at a higher level, without the disciplinary disruptions that cut into class time.
39
@Ann
I am a recent graduate of Bronx Science. I currently attend an Ivy League school. My friends from high school and I have all agreed - our high school was harder than college. This is no joke - genuinely harder than an Ivy. At least at Yale, I get sleep and have free time.
I know for an absolute fact that if you took the best students from all of NYC's schools, some kids would be prepared for the work, some kids would struggle and rise to the challenge, and a large portion of kids would be utterly destroyed, considering how bad some of NYC's middle schools actually are.
In order to prevent those kids from failing, it would be necessary to provide them with insane amounts of tutoring and support. Bronx Science already has such a system. It is called Small Group Instruction (SGI) and requires the teacher to stay after school at least once a week so struggling students can get help.
SGI for math classes is ALWAYS full, and that's with how the school is now. If any more kids needed extensive help, there wouldn't be enough space in the classroom. The bottom line - Bronx Science would have to restructure its entire curriculum and devote disproportionate resources to helping kids from the school's worst middle schools, leaving the other kids bored and unsupported.
That being said, I would love to know what schools you think have better systems in place to find top students. I promise this isn't sarcasm - I'm genuinely interested in finding out what you prefer.
65
This is a nice human interest story, but what about an investigative story on the root cause.
We all know the test itself is not the problem. What is? Interest, opportunity, awareness?
How can it be solved?
4
They need to study harder like everyone else.
Stop making excuses for not performing well in tests. Every group before them could overcome disadvantage, they can too.
316
The whole point is these kids did work hard to take the SHSAT and as a result they achieved the scores that opened Stuyvesant’s doors. An argument can be made that they worked harder and showed more determination and drive to get to Stuyvesant than kids whose parents and schools provided the tools to prepare adequately for that test. Also - deep respect is due to Eugene Thomas’s tutor who helped him to get in and gave him a steep discount on test prep, which Thomas apparently paid from earning money as a delivery boy for a pharmacy.
51
@Sam
"Venus Nnadi, 18, a Stuyvesant graduate who is a freshman at Harvard, said she remembered when a fifth-grade teacher pulled her aside at her Catholic middle school in Queens Village and encouraged her to consider an elite public school. Ms. Nnadi, the daughter of Nigerian immigrants, had never heard of Stuyvesant, but she bought a test preparation book and started taking practice exams. She thinks often of her classmates who didn’t have the same guidance."
"It was much the same for Hanna Gebremichael, a first-generation Eritrean immigrant who found out the test existed three months before taking it — by Googling phrases like 'best New York City high schools.'"
It's hard to "study harder" when you aren't even aware of the test.
102
@Sam I actually asked my students to write down why Asians at our majority Latino school had higher grades. All my Asian students wrote down that they work hard, the vast majority of my Latino students wrote that the Asian students were smart. And there it is... the sad cop out. If those other people are naturally smarter, why bother competing? They are deserving and I am not. If Asians are naturally smart, than I, and the rest of those in my ethnicity are...
57
They got in fair and square. Lowering the test score based on race will make them look like they got in only because of their race. That's injustice to all. Public school should be fair and square, no racial preference.
440
@Asian man
so then how do we explain their feeling of isolation once they are there? how do we explain the racist and hurtful comments from their classmates?
26
@Stephanie. I am Asian and was one of 8 Asians in my Jr. High of 800 in the mid 80s. This was before the anti-bullying movement. If racial comments are being made about the African-American children, that is not acceptable. However, these African - American children need to understand that they are trail-blazers and will likely be one of the few underrepresented minorities in college and high paying jobs. By setting an example and being liaisons to their community, they can encourage others to study and prepare.
Diluting entrance requirements to double or triple under-represented minorities will make things for them FAR worse. People will have justification for suspecting they were admitted with lower thresholds. The solution is to simply copy the Asian model for under-represented minorities. Have education as the central focus in the house beginning even before birth. Read to the children in the womb. Expect studying be done everyday. Practice test questions. Save for tutoring. It is not complicated, just takes disciple from both the student and family.
110
@Stephanie You tell them to toughen up and use it as motivation. Stop coddling them and destroying their resolve in the process. Who said they are getting hateful comments? Reality is those Asian kids will be getting hateful comments in life as well, toughen up, stop coddling. Tell them to work harder and learn that success is the best revenge.
43
These articles always tend towards the simplistic. This issue is important enough to deserve better. A few points : 1. Presumably the school was not over 70% Asian from day 1. Somehow Asian kids worked their way up to become the schools majority, and did so in a time when racist slurs and such were more common and acceptable than today. Oppressed groups cannot wait passively for others to improve their lot for them.
2. Notice the bio of all those interviewed: it should come as no surprise for anyone that virtually non of them come from a traditional African American background. By surrendering to the racist optics of skin color we are brushing over the bigger problem - the horrible legacy of slavery still hurting the direct descendants of slaves. By conflating their just grievances with those of recent immigrants, who are unburdened by this legacy of injustice, we are doing the former a further injustice and obscuring the true causes of the problem.
3. Ivy League schools give the perfect examples of the complete moral bankruptcy of the current system - giving outrageous advantage at admission not based on true affirmative action- helping those wronged in the past (i.e. African Americans descendant from slaves and generations of legal discrimination in this country)- but to the “optics” of diversity by giving those spots to recent immigrants, whose only connection to those really wronged is, perhaps, skin color. This is shallow, racist and unjust and wrongs everyone.
27
Why don’t we improve black and brown schools instead of tweaking the test. Work on solving the actual problem instead of taking spots away from Asians. Allowing students who don’t belong there and are not prepared is not fair to them, the school and the kids who lost that spot.
23
Eugene Thomas!! You were always a good student and all around nice kid! I remember you as a little boy, always so polite and sweet and WICKED SMART!! I am so happy to see that you are at Yale now. You make Chelsea proud!!
48
@Elisabeth Eugene is amazing!
9
I am writing as an immigrant and a Democrat.
1. All these students got in because they worked hard. They need to pat themselves on the back and feel proud of what they accomplished. If they are concerned that there are so few others who share their color, I have two pieces of advice for them - a) Instead of complaining that the system isn't fair (it is fair - YOU got in), do something to change the imbalance by "adopting" a first grader of color to tutor and stick with the student all through K-12. That will make a real difference and b) stop being so focused on your identity. Your identity does not have to be just your skin color or your socio-economic class. Rather it is your had work and high achievement and the things you will do and the places you will go as a result of the doors that will open for you.
2) We need to stop clubbing all non-white non-Asian students in the same category. To some extent, I don't care how immigrant students of color do. They or their parents CHOSE to come to America despite knowing all the pitfalls. So, their lives may be hard but they are not a result of American dysfunctions. This is SO unlike the challenging legacy of African-American students. I want to know how many "truly" African-American students got in and what worked for THEM to achieve. And then I want to have programs put in place to replicate that. Let us not ignore African Americans in our rush to elevate superficial skin color-based "diversity."
23
The author notes that only 20% of the Stuyvesant students were white, which is probably lower than their representation in the broader population. Why is there no article asking these students if they feel the test is wrong or if they feel out of place at the school? Do the white students feel there is "no disparity of effort or talent - just an imbalance of opportunity."? The test is the same for all students, sorry.
10
Why is the 1/2 Korean kid "black" and not Asian?
But seriously, it sounds like the issue might really be cultural. In some communities parents are not standing around talking about schools nor involved in guiding their children to opportunities. I can think of no other reason that some kids don't seem to even know about these schools and the process for admittance. Got to reach the adults before you can reach the kids.
9
@The F.A.D. You can ask the police that first question.
2
In Alabama, public schools are funded primarily by local property taxes. There is a wide disparity between wealthy and poor school districts. This unfairness perpetuates the opportunity gap that extends racial disparities in income, health, and political power. It’s basically systemic racism.
I can’t tell you how angry I am. My state, which has some pretty awful systems to replace, is constantly being shamed as “deplorable” by smug big city types. Just let the irony sink in.
P.S. We could all try harder to fix this moral stain, in a million practical, sensible ways.
3
It’s absolutely wild to me that the school systems have become classist, racist, and almost like a caste system. These kids are middle schoolers taking entrance exams for high school? That’s wild. A lot of kids are getting left behind in this effort to make everyone’s college application pristine and gilded. They’re children. Let them breathe and be among each other and instead offer a city-wide program of alternative and after school classes/lessons that increase availability for all students and also let’s encourage commingling by having the top students tutor the kids who struggle. You can’t stack all the resources in to elite schools and leave the others behind. Not everyone in NY grows up to be even a desus or mero. The current system is racist and sounds just so depressing.
1
@Camil Have you ever been in a NYC high school? "Let them breathe and be among each other." The true racism is not the elite schools but rather that many high schools are just temporary holding areas till kids either turn 18 or drop out. In contrast, Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, etc are havens for teens with talent and ability significantly above the average but whose families lack the cash for private school. To abandon them to the mainstream is the last thing that they or anyone else need happen.
4
There is no perfect system & there will never be one. This is something that progressives in education can't grasp. We have no obligation to diversify our best schools if it means better qualified kids will be left out. Such a system punishes kids who studied harder & got better grades. Let's have all admissions based on grades & test scores. At least a majority of the best & brightest would be going to our top schools. Isn't that what we want? By the way this idea has already been tried with great success in California. For decades Asian Americans here had complained that they were being short changed & in some cases discriminated in UC college admissions. In 1996 voters amended the state constitution by voting for Prop 209, to prohibit state institutions from considering race, sex, or ethnicity, in public education. By law admission to UC colleges now had to be race neutral. Prop 209 restored & reconfirmed the historic intention of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The basic premise of Prop 209 is that every individual has a right, & that right is not to be discriminated against, or granted a preference, based on their race or gender. Since the number of available positions are limited, discriminating against or giving unearned preference to a person based solely, or even partially on race or gender deprives qualified applicants of all races an equal opportunity to succeed. It also pits one group against another & perpetuates social tension. This is an idea who's time has come.
9
I am amazed at how each student's ethnicity is laid out in terms of immigration or mixed race backgrounds. Are any students fully African American, whatever that term means? What does it mean?
2
@John
Only one, and he had a delivery job at a pharmacy. Therein is a clue: persistence and individual accountability are not attributes that are widely cultivated in the experiences of children who have grown up in the NYC elementary school system. To the extent that the problem is inter-generational, the NYC schools in most neighborhoods have been culpable for decades.
2
The author should have asked the most basic question:
Do you think that the entrance exam should be scrapped and replaced by a quota system?
13
@SteveRR The students wanted to speak about their experiences. They are not policymakers, they are teenagers. They are asking the people who do make decisions about the test to listen to their experiences.
22
@Eliza Shapiro Your article, though probably intended to drum up support for a quota system, actually makes the opposite argument to me. These kids worked hard and gained entry, and others can too. Tests are color-blind; why we trying to make race a factor?
23
@Eliza Shapiro, but this doesn't mean you shouldn't have asked that basic question.
2
Interesting article. May I make three points: Instead of complaining, why not just be happy you are in the school? Two, uncross your arms...to us outsiders it's not a good look. Three? Get off Facebook, it's not a good source of information.
Bonus point: Be the change you want to see in the world.
8
I can understand complaining about whites as a dominant majority, but what advantage is anyone suggesting that Asian American students in NYC have?
I am singling out Asian Americans in NYC, because most of those Asian American immigrants did not arrive in the U.S. with top degrees and incomes, whereas that might be more the case in a place like Silicon Valley.
5
@Peter M
Go to any take-out place and you'll see youngsters doing their homework at a little table off to the side; when that's done, they help to make dumplings or clean vegetables. Go to neighborhoods with a high concentration of Asians and you'll see little storefronts that provide after-school tutoring. You'll also see homes that seem to have many generations crowded in together. When children are expected to be diligent from a very young age, the outcome is very different from when they're dumped in front of a TV or left to wander around after school.
6
We need more info on this. If you're really bright, but young and you just never were even told about the elite schools? And that intellect never gets cultivated? Hard to think of something more important to get fixed. Likely there's some smart kid out there right now who hasn't been told about what resources are available to them.
5
@Doug, it does seem like NYC has done a terrible job in publicizing and promoting these elite schools. These kids should get a picture-based pamphlet about higher education and economic advancement on their first day of kindergarten.
1
There are three possible reasons for the racial disparity at selective schools like Stuyvesant where admissions are based largely on standardized test results. First is the lack of opportunity/access to test preparation, second is lack of motivation, and third is lack of innate intelligence. The first can and should be addressed by public funding for early childhood education throughout the entire system so that in the words of AOC “every school can aspire to be as good as a Stuyvesant.” The second requires an emphasis on family values, which is largely a cultural factor. The third possibility more problematic as it’s very existence runs counter to political correctness. Correcting that would require some sort of affirmative action. Teasing these possibilities apart would necessitate not less testing of intelligence, but much more as this is the fairest way to treat applicants based on merit. But in the words of the great Steven Pinker; “this is a proposal with no political future.” My intuition is that truth is some messy combination of all these possibilities.
Meritocracy is not as clear cut as it would appear. Those with the most tend to have lucked out in terms of opportunities, environment & genetics not of their choosing. Social engineering is fraught. There is a place for selective schools with standardized admissions as well as public remedial programs and test prep centers. But let’s not water down excellent education by throwing the baby out with its bath water
2
I really don't understand why liberals continue to fall for this identity stuff. Stuyvesant admits on merit. There is no discrimination. Lowering the bar for black, Hispanic, and white students will worsen the overall education, and will be unfair to other students. Why is this so hard to understand? If parents want their kids to go there, then they can emulate the parents of Asian kids and pressure them from the time they're three years old. I don't necessarily think this is a good thing, by the way, but it is what it is. Nowhere in the Constitution, or in any moral construct I'm aware of, does it state that we have an obligation to have a certain number of people of a given identity group represented in an organization.
18
My mother was the child of Russian Jewish immigrants. She graduated from Hunter High School and Hunter College in the 1920's. Many of her classmates had a similar history. Their immigrant background and parents'guidance emphasized education as the way to have a better life in the United States. The Asian students who attend the elite New York City schools share that parental and cultural emphasis on education.
I lived in Chicago for two years and the neighborhood elementary school had Cambodian immigrant children as the top students. Their parents, few of whom spoke English, gathered the students together after school where the older students did homework assignments together and then tutored the younger kids. Again, the immigrant emphasis on education as a way to improve themselves and their economic future.
My son participated in an advanced study program at a suburban Chicago high school and graduated with AP credit in calculus, physics, chemistry and biology. Many of the other students in the program were Asian. There was one African-American student in the group -- his adoptive parents were White.
The emphasis on performing well in school starts at home. That is difficult if a student lives in a single parent home or if the parent(s) don't place an emphasis on education.
My father taught in the Nee York City School System. One of his ongoing concerns was the lack of parental involvement in their children's education. And so it continues on and on.
7
"it was the same wave of disappointment I feel every time I look at the demographics of this school.”
Imagine every school is equipped, from pre-K forward with master teachers, science/math classes beginning in 1st grade, "baby watch", playground mediator training, 15 students to a classroom, theatre training, homework help during school hours, mentors, art classes, musical instrument classes, etc...all elements of my DD elite private lower school
It would not be a matter of race if ALL students were afforded an elite education and elite opportunities from grade 1.
Another way to look at this is to view the terrible state of education in this country. Since students of color are denied this elite education, these schools should provide an "army" of educators, school psychologists, mentors, etc. and admit
25% people of color.
in a perfect world...
2
I was so struck when I read the first story and even more reading this story. Why is it the Black, Latino and other students of color’s responsibility to recruit and support incoming students of the elite schools. That is squarely the responsibility of the adults in the room. That made me an advocate for equal educational opportunities and moved me to serve on the board of Aspira for decades. How disheartening to read the statistics.
Over 50 year ago, I went to an elite college when there were 5 Latinas. You felt the weight of having been admitted and a feeling of guilt that somehow you are different from the rest of your group. That was and is a truly unfair and misdirected burden. Thankfully, I had Aspira too, to help me stay focused and graduate, going on to become an attorney at a law school where I was the only one in my class who was Latino. I shudder at the thought that those statistics still dominate.
6
Each of the students interviewed said that they began working early in their grammar school to prepare for entrance to Stuyvesant. Is someone's race or ethnicity an indicator of the self-discipline required to be a good student?
4
@George R. Maclarty
What are you talking about? None of the students interviewed said that. Only three of the students said anything at all about their experience with test prep, and of these, one began prepping in 5th grade, another in 7th grade, and another just three months before the test.
There is no question that the students at specialized schools are smart — at least narrowly defined by the SHSAT. I know the test well having tutored my son who attended Bronx Science. Are there, perhaps, smarter, potentially more inclusive ways to quantify intelligence and creativity? Absolutely. The test is failing us.
4
Another example of “dumbing down” of America. The kids who are there know that they deserve to be there, and so does everyone else. Why not make coaching available at the middle school level for kids who don’t have this extra benefit?
2
If they feel alone they can encourage their friends to commit to their education with more effort and responsibility. Stuyvesant is for elite students. Those lacking capacity, like at Harvard or Yale, do not get accepted into the program. It's almost Darwinian...
2
What opponents to the exam fail to address is that the city already offers free tutoring for the specialized high school exam to all who want it. This tutoring starts as early as 6th grade. Problem is that most middle school students and their parents don't choose to participate in it because it requires more effort and work. Lowering standards is not the answer to admitting more African Americans and Hispanic students. Nor is it fair to reduce the number of Asian students to benefit African American and Hispanic students. The key is to encourage more students to participate in the tutoring process. In teenage years, as in life, the key is individual responsibility.
28
@Noah Lipman "Problem is that most middle school students and their parents don't choose to participate in it because it requires more effort and work."
--- Or, they just don't know about it- especially those from low-income communities. The lack of knowledge about these test prep centers or the test itself is a big problem. I went to the a public middle school in the South Bronx and I found out about the Standardized test the last minute. Obviously, I sat for the test but did not do well because of the lack of adequate preparation. So, knowledge and making these free test prep centers more accessible and emphasized within these schools and communities would certainly make a big difference in my opinion.
1
Access to test preparation and tutoring for top students must be implemented at all schools in the system along with guidance counselors so students from homes without these advantages have a shot. We are missing out on giving some incredible kids a chance because of this gap.
3
It is available. And free. And there are special prep programs targeting minority schools.
5
The question is, does the admission process favor qualifications such as high grades and test scores to the exclusion of ethnicity? The follow-up question would be for a high school were admission is based upon merit, high scores and past performance, should ethnicity be a factor in gaining admission?
@Mike
Here is the thing, Mike. The test is the only criterion for acceptance. Admission does not factor color, gender, ethnicity, religion, economic status, neighborhood, race or other filters. It's simple. You get a high mark on the test and you're in. You don't and you are out. As in most other areas in life, if you have the innate talent and you work hard, your chance for success improves. What could be more fair and democratic than that?
3
This article raises two questions: Is a one-time exam the best way to predict future performance; and is this the best/fairest way to allocate access to a precious educational resource.
Academic studies of college entrance exams suggest the answer is “no” to the first question — particularly when taking account of the socioeconomic status of the parents. They suggest that a hybrid system of a standardized test and grade-point average in high school is a much better predictor of future performance. The ethnic make-up of the current Stuyvesant student body would similarly suggest an answer of “no” to the second question.
If anyone really believes the current test is completely objective, and accurately measures academic preparation and intellectual capacity, then please explain to me why so many admitted students were the products of rigorous test preparation and cramming? We’ve all known brilliantly capable people throughout our lives who were poor test takers. Do we really want to foreclose the opportunity to advance to students like these?
I have no problem with including a standardized test as part of the admissions process, but to make it the only factor when it provides such a skewed outcome is, to me, obviously both counter-productive and unfair.
7
To change the mix of students would the school need to lower its standards? And where would the students, who meet the highest standards but are turned away to change the mix, go?
5
Umm if it’s based on test scores from an entrance exam where’s the beef? If there’s no race box to check where’s the discrimination? If it’s a gifted school where’s the problem? They could water the school down to be PC but isn’t that hurting the gifted? This is why handing out trophies to everyone and every team is counter productive if it’s a trophy you want then it’s worth the struggle that is unless everyone get one.
4
@J Clarki’m a teacher who teaches “gifted” kids who test very well. I put gifted in quotes because only a handful are truly gifted. The rest take after school tutoring courses every day and on the weekends. Some of these courses train the students to take the iq tests the schools give to assign “gifted” status. I can guarantee that many, if not most, of the students at this school have gone through extensive training for the test. This is the disparity.
6
@Emma Goldman
I fail to see the crime in getting tutoring or taking practice tests. If the family were truly motivated, they would find ways to do the same. Not every Africa-American or Hispanic family is poor and not every Asian-American family is rich, this is mostly just a reflection of different priorities. All of us have biases, that is why we need a system of selection that has the least bias.
If we're being honest, there seems to be a gap between generational African-Americans and Black immigrants. Perhaps the pressure to succeed is accentuated in immigrant families from Africa? I don't know.
Knowing that many low-income students don't have a laptop and internet access at home, could the NYC public schools do a better job of informing *all* students that the specialty school exists?
3
@Jenny
For Immigrants who are not refugees and did not cross the border illegally, there are very limited number of ways to immigrate to the US. Immigrants without a bachelors degree are mostly excluded. For those with a bachelors degree, either your employer has to sponsor you directly or you go through a US institution of higher learning getting a graduate degree and then getting employer sponsorship. The overseas immigrants who come from Africa are themselves from elite families there. They may have the capacity to at least buy an air ticket and pay a few semesters of college tuition, they certainly have more than average motivation to leave their place of birth to migrate into an unknown future. they also benefit from learning at a institution of higher education or skills on the job. It is no surprise their children will do better than the native born.
5
How should these students feel? They should feel good that they got in on merit and not racial preferences. Other students may not believe that, and mayor DeBlasio may want to institute racial preferences, but these students can hold their heads up high and show through their performance that they are qualified to be there.
10
Perhaps these students who seemed dedicated and concerned about the issue at hand could in cooperation with the high school create and implement a plan to tutor middle school students in their neighborhood who are planning on taking the entrance exam. We could find a way to give theses "tutors" community service and/or AP credits. I'd like especially target the Stuyvesant students who are considering the field of education as a career.
The March for our Lives movement has shown us that teenagers are a powerful force when they put their minds to it. Let's tsp into it.
4
People have to understand that the purpose of these entrance exam is to make the process more "objective" (and easy). It is not to choose the most qualified students. There are no single test that can do that. Frankly, we are not smart enough, the challenge would be too daunting to even try to do that. What we can do is make the process more fair to all affected communities.
2
I graduated from Stuyvesant High School in 1969. The very long teacher's strike during my junior year, in 1968, was over the issue of community control of education. It was during the height of the civil rights movement. There were very few black and hispanic students at Stuyvesant then. I'm sad to hear that this hasn't changed much in almost a half century.
8
First off, many congratulations and well wishes for Eugene Thomas, who really sets an example for all students - not just black or Latino students. That being said, there are probably countless other similar anecdotes from underprivileged ASIAN Americans who also scrimped and saved to prepare for the exam. This in no way dilutes Mr. Thomas's impressive accomplishments. But to pass off the achievement of Asian Americans as being somehow inevitable or simply earned, just because they are such a large percentage of the student body, is myopic. Let's hear about from Asian American students what they had to do to prepare for Stuyvesant.
75
@Ed I interviewed Asian-American alumni from the specialized schools to get their take on the controversy earlier this year. You can read that here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/nyregion/nyc-specialized-high-school-test.html
5
This takes me back to stories of the kids that integrated public schools in the 50's and 60's, and my own experiences as one of the only minority students in honors classes in my largely white high school. Doesn't seem like we've made much progress.
4
The problem of educating the public sector is that the public sector is always the victim of notions that being inclusive is socialism. Our history is to perceive our puritan capitalism as strength while posing as a democracy. Most have come from families that struggle. That has been our history. We might look at that.
2
From my experience, everything starts at home. If parents prioritize education, children are more likely to excel. If parents are actively INVOLVED in their children's life and education, children are more likely to excel. If parents observe and encourage their children to surround themselves with motivated friends, their children are more likely to excel. This is especially the case in immigrant communities, be it Asian, South Asian, Latin American or African. First generation Americans are all to familiar with the stories of their parents who came with next to nothing to this country to improve their lives as well as those of their families abroad. They worked HARD and instilled that ethic in their kids. Education and family are top priorities in these communities that almost always translate into personal and professional excellence. NYC elementary and middle schools can certainly benefit from an expansion of opportunities but it will only be a supplement for the foundation that needs to start at home.
30
I noticed a common theme in all their stories -- I worked hard to get here.
Stuyvesant '55
67
Thank you for this article. I have a better understanding of the problems after reading these students' perspectives.
7
There is an important thing missing from this piece: The talented Black and Hispanic students that attend New York's elite private schools, such as Trinity and Dalton, possibly on need-based financial aid.
Those schools love to have talented students of all races, and Black and Hispanic are under-represented. If you were such a student, would you choose the elite prep schools and all that offers, or Stuy which is known to be high stress?
In other words, a good part of the reason that the number of Black and Hispanic students is so low is because the elite private schools have picked some of them off already.
50
@Concerned Reader This is a very important point that most reporting in the NYT and other media does not mention or explore.
Seeking to diversify their enrollments, private prep schools in and beyond NYC actively recruit--and offer full scholarships to--high-performing minority students. The top private colleges do likewise. Undoubtedly this process siphons off some minority students who would otherwise apply to Stuyvesant and other specialized schools.
15
@Concerned Reader African-American students are apparently 70% of public school students. Even if a handful were scouted by private schools there will still be plenty of highly intelligent African-American students left in the public schools.
3
@Aquamarine I know this is true. It is very unfortunate that they have not received the kind of education that would allow them to pass the entrance tests for the specialized schools.
This reinforces my point that all NYC schools from K on up need to be improved.
2
As L pointed out below this is not about high school or college admissions . It is representative of how the mix of segregation , wealth , racism , and political power results in education inequality that affected the past and how it maintains a lock on the future for Blacks , Hispanics, and the poor and working class Whites , and everyone else . It is why even White Women are oppressed and White Men control everything .
This will not change without heightened awareness from all of the have nots followed by concerted action over time that works to change America from a Country where White Men and Wealth control everything to one that is equal for all , and of course " the Haves " have no interest in sharing. They like being on top .
This then would be the greatest struggle in America for it has always been this way . Our Country was formed by the wealthy and big business for their benefit while promoting a powerful " mental salve " ( lie ) " America is Run By The People For The People " that is so mind controlling l that the populace ignore the indisputable truth that they see and live each day .
This is simply evidence that American no longer needed to enslave . That it could allow everyone to vote . That it could pass laws against discrimination and still oppress .
1
@VB sure except that the Asian families are poor, and pretty powerless, and not all are attending stellar middle schools. They have no-english speaking households which disadvantage them further. Getting into to these Specialized schools is a choice. Kids in educationally oriented families have that choice made for them. Being a minority in a asian majority school is a choice. Traveling for high school is a choice. Clearly there is more than discrimination ans oppression at work here.
8
@LisaD
Nonsense !
Just because other immigrants can come from cultures that are more educationally driven like some Asian and Indian Cultures does not change the effects of discrimination , the lack of capital ,political power , and racism , and segregation that provides a stranglehold over the populations depicted in the picture who grew up in American Culture .
It merely points out that oppression and inequality can be overcome by extraordinary means ,but in limited ways . Again , it has nothing to do with race , or gender , or people's inherent abilities for we are all the same .
It is the environment ( for them America and Capitalism ) that determines different results . The fact that Stuyvesant , or Bronx High School of Science , or other schools are disproportionately Asian and Indian does not mean they are superior to White People or anyone else for that matter .
I was a child of European immigrants. In the fifties my public school teacher in a low income area of the Bronx suggested I take the test for an elite school Hunter. I had straight A's all through grammar school. We were a diverse population. I had never heard of special schools. I had no idea you could prep for a test, etc. I took the test and didn't score high enough. I noticed the girls who got in were all schooled well in advance by tutors and prep tests. Still I blamed myself for not being "smart enough". I know that the public school system has failed the majority of its students and feel it is an insurmountable problem, even in this day and age.
9
I work in a diverse middle school that prepares students for the SHSAT exam for the past twenty five years.
Every person who comments should be aware of the research of the effects of exam school on educational outcomes. This report can be found here.
https://economics.mit.edu/files/9518
The research found that "The results reported here suggest that an exam school education produces only scattered gains for applicants, even among students with baseline scores close to or above the mean in the target school"
The idea that only an education at a selective HS can prepare you for college is ridiculous. IS an AP Calc class at Murrow HS so radically different from one at Tech?
When I ask my own students why they want to attend a specialized school they usually respond that "they are better" "my parent wants me to" The actual idea of why an education t one of those schools is superior is difficult to define.
The answer is not in more test prep. We prepare many students to take the exam including partnering with the Dream program. The answer is not more exposure to algebra. Our kids all take the Algebra Regents. 100% pass rate last year. The answer is not more gifted programs....we have a large gifted program where students take up to 4 regents.
We still struggle with having our Latino and African -American students pass the exam.
7
These students’ stories are inspiring...and validating of why the admission test should be preserved. Nearly all quoted here spoke of the efforts they put into preparing for the test. If they want to avoid unfair comments that they’re imposters don’t lower the admission standards in the search for diversity. If the problem lays, in part, in the feeder schools where they’re not encouraged to aim for Stuyvesant then the focus on correction should be in the feeder schools.
30
73% of the students at Stuyvesant are Asian-American, and Asian-Americans also make up 60% of all students at NYC's specialized schools.
Does that mean Asian-American students are innately smarter than white, black, Hispanic and other students? I don't think so.
Rather, I think the outstanding academic performance of Asian-American students is due to the fact that their culture and families clearly place a very high value on education, emphasizing the need for study and hard work in school and positively reinforcing student achievement. Perhaps the most important factor is that parents--and the culture--unambiguously convey the expectation that Asian-American students will do well in school, an attitude that is not as strong in the other groups noted.
The way to get more black and Hispanic students into the specialized schools is not to lower the admission standards but to improve the education provided at ALL city schools from K on up.
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@Mal T
First of all, we know very little about the human brain, so the expressions “ smarter” or “more intelligent” aren’t accurate. One hundred years from now, we may discover that there are one hundred types of intelligence.
However, it may be that Asians from certain regions evolved genetically to be better test takers, or to have greater mathematical abilities, on AVERAGE, than, say, Scotch Irish. This, however, would have no impact on an individual brilliant Scotch Irish scientist.
2
@Mal T You had me up until that last paragraph.
Not that I disagree that improving education for all is desirable.
However, I think your comment overall reflects why this problem never seems to get solved. Your third paragraph reflects a conservative diagnosis which, research shows, is largely correct. But then your fourth paragraph reflects a liberal solution which disregards what the evidence clearly shows and instead absolves any hint of personal responsibility and turns this into a structural, societal problem to be solved with more programs and more money.
Too much emphasis is put on quality schools and quality teachers (which are important) but not enough emphasis is put on quality--and QUANTITY--parenting. As a parent of an elementary aged student, it is a two person job to keep them on track and make sure they are prepared for school each day. And it takes constant reinforcement to the student that this education is the most important thing in their life right now and will be for the foreseeable future.
If the reporter had bothered to ask, I bet she would have found that most if not all of these kids had at least one very engaged parent, and most likely, two of them.
9
@Mal T I would say, not from K up but from birth. Having eduction as a focus in the house begins well before a child enters any formal schooling.
14
I've read each and every comment on this story. Let me give you an alternative view. If this happened in Alabama, the school would be in a federal district court being raked over the coals in a single heartbeat. While the natural reaction from people from places other than Alabama is that "Well, Alabama has a history of discrimination. New York is different." That is absolutely false. While I readily admit our sins and am extremely mindful that we have come far but have farther to go to make things right, New York and every other part of this country has issues with racial discrimination. It is just convenient for those outside the South to think of this as only a Southern problem. On the very face of the numbers at Stuyvesant High School, which reveal that African Americans make up less than one percent of the student population, even I can say unequivocally that Stuy is discriminating in a very large way. In the past Stuy had 12% of African Americans in its student body. None of the arguments justifying this by those commenting on this issue in defense of the school can defend this glaring disparity. To get colloquial about it, that dog won't hunt. Face your reality to deal with it. Before you even start typing to "correct" me, first research the draft riots in New York during the Civil War. Pay particular attention for the raison d'etre for the riots. Before moving on, I am impressed by the school itself. It appears to be a pinnacle of excellence.
58
@Jack Wallace, Jr. This is a hugely helpful perspective. It reminds me of research I've done into the history of segregation in NYC schools in the 1960's, when advocates were raising the same questions about de jure vs. de facto segregation. Lots of debate over the origins of the problem in each part of the country, but ultimately the students in the North were still in segregated schools. And segregation remains more entrenched in parts of the North today than it does in the South.
23
@Eliza Shapiro It's telling that the NYT is entirely focused on pushing the racism narrative. As many others have said and continue to say the test is open to all and test prep is available. Middle school is a problem across the city. It would be much more productive to focus on how to improve middle schools for all instead of focusing on a racism theme.
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@Jack Wallace, Jr.
Stuy is not discriminating at all. You are shooting the messenger. The exam is completely race-neutral.
On the other hand, it is clear that the NY school education system is failing the many talented Black and Hispanic students who could have thrived at Stuy.
38
People fight over high school and college admissions, but the issue starts in preschool and kindergarten. The root of the problem comes from the fact that in the US, funding for each school district is based on local taxes, and therefore the wealth of the neighborhood. And the makeup of neighborhoods has been deeply influenced by the Jim Crow era practice of redlining, when real estate agents would steer whites and blacks into different neighborhoods. That’s how our country has “good” school districts and “bad” school districts. With funding for local schools based on property taxes, some schools were better funded than others, and so, when combined with redlining, the quality of early education varies widely by race. While redlining may no longer be a widespread practice I believe Wells Fargo was found to be doing something similar to it as recently as 2012.
All of this is to say, everyone is fighting about how to select students for Stuyvesant, but I think if funding were more equalized across elementary and middle schools, then we would see more diversity at Stuyvesant even if we kept the admissions test.
44
@L While there are some disparities in NYC, it's one tax base here and funding is relatively equal. We do not use the property tax like in the suburbs. Because of Title 1 and special ed monies, some lower income schools actually receive more (but yes some PTAs raise money in wealthy schools but this is usually not so significant in a budget)
6
When my kids were in public middle school in the early 2000s, there was Stuyvesant test prep offered on Saturdays for all sixth and seventh graders for free. This still didn’t increase the percentage of minorities doing well on the test. It’s not about access to test prep. It’s about the segregated NYC public school system. Every NYC public school kid deserves the best high quality education.
33
I’d be interested to hear what percentage of those taking the prep classes were African-American and Latino. Kids who do rigorous test prep are somewhat self selecting - either they or their families are really motivated to get into specialized. So with today’s DREAM program, it’s not necessarily the test prep that is good, but the fact that these kids/families are willing to go through a program that runs over a year and sacrifice weekend and summer time.
20
Have you considered that free test prep isn’t quality test prep?
4
This story begins long before the admissions test and is far more nuanced. What percentage of students matriculated from a private or parochial school to Stuyvesant versus from a NYPS?
27
It is absurd and racist to believe there are only 30 qualified black students across NYC. There is systemic racism that is clearly the cause and it needs to be addressed. It is in all our best interest to have has many black and minority students have access to the best public education available. If that requires Stuyvesant and the other elite schools to actively recruit black students we should support it. I was recruited from the inner city of Chicago and attended an elite boarding school St.Paul's School in NH. My parents, with their 7th grade educations, had no role in that process and it was done through my middle school teachers and principals. St.Paul's had sent a Alumni recruiter annually seeking qualified students. I would never have gotten that opportunity if not for their recruiting efforts.
28
@EPMD
The main criteria is the score on the exam. The bottom line is that black students havent performed well. There are multiple reasons but systemic racism isnt one of them. Asians (and less so whites) place more of an emphasis on education. Sports ,extracurricular activities are always secondary to school. The original article stated many of the asians students were of lower socio-economic class but they were able to overcome these obstacles and excel.
The criteria for college includes diversity and it is clear that an applicants race is a factor. The irony of this is that the only blacks that tend to benefit from this are primarily immigrants. Even in this article many of the blacks were of mixed race.
Poor quality education is not a primary issue that prevents black children from succeeding. After $100MILLION spent by Facebook in the Newark School system (primarily black/hispanic) - they have nothing to show for it.
60
@EPMD
The students are recruited with a color blind exam. Those who set the questions and those who grade the results do not know the race of the examinee, what could be fairer than that. The fact that African-American enrollment is actually dropping year after year points to the failure of 50 years of affirmative action. You may credential someone as a Doctor with an MD degree through affirmative action but you cannot force patients to get treated by them because the patient will doubt that the Doctor got there by their merit alone.
10
@Nips: Even living in liberal Eastern New England, I can see systemic racism easily. As other readers have stated, the difference in schools can be stark. Busing doesn't always help. Being poor in the US , with its' many causes, puts kids and parents at a disadvantage from the start. And it's not just schools..I saw a huge difference in how 2 young girls were treated in the local ED for nearly identical fractured arms. The middle class white girl with private insurance got appropriate care, a cute pink cast, and lots of attention/instruction from the ED. The poor black girl on MA Health got an improperly applied white cast (was not given a choice in colors) that had to be removed the next day due to swelling; the Mom received little verbal or written instructions. Sadly, when you look, you will see racism....
7
When it comes to issues of race, there is no "fair and square." Minority children are more often than not from poorer families, and live in neighborhoods that put them at a huge disadvantage. They can’t afford tutors or special classes. Kids often have to work to help their families. They live in areas where the schools are underperforming and those who are doing well are not offered a chance to take the test. I’m not sure that getting rid of the test is the best way to go, but we need ways to seek out the best-performing elementary and middle schoolers and offer them free tutoring, mentoring, and extra help. There is a difference between “fair” and true justice.
7
@Colette
I worked as a teacher in a poor 98% minority neighborhood under-performing middle school. 25% of the the student body consisted of Asian students who were just as poor as my other minority students. At the end of the year we had a party for our students with 4.0 GPA's. 75% of those students were Asian. The difference between how my Asian students and other minority students approached academics was staggeringly different and obvious to all the teachers and the classmates. The difference appeared to be the messages and exceptions about educational achievement that started at home. The poor neighborhood seemed not to keep most of my Asian students from taking school seriously and doing very well.
12
@Colette
A large percentage of the Asian students in these schools come from poor, often immigrant, families. No tutors or special classes for them - just a commitment to learn and supportive parents.
10
@Colette Get rid of "the test" and the school is no longer a elite educational experience.
1
I find the stories about Stuyvesant admissions super depressing. I imagine NYC has done its share of useless adversity training. I say this because of the results. I also noticed not even one of the students interviewed the product of two African American parents. NYC and the United States needs to do better. I believe we need to stop blaming teachers, and look for real answers.
77
I know you meant diversity training.
I think after reading comments yesterday and today that a much deeper investigation by the school system is needed to come up with a remedy.
2
@M Davis
Yes Diversity
2
A lot of brilliant young students are not good at taking tests. Teacher recommendations are the way to go.
3
@Pete So we can have more scandals like at USC, Yale? Teacher recommendations can hardly be uniform across middle schools and so basically be meaningless.
7
This article and the students' comments unwittingly provide strong evidence for maintaining the current system and for dismantling affirmative action. Specifically:
A common theme in the article is that all of the students who got in were placed in higher performing elementary/middle schools and had test prep. This suggests that it’s not the exam that’s inherently unfair, racist, or biased against certain racial/ethnic groups, but rather the problem is lack of preparation and tracking in the pre-high school years. Again, the student themselves agree that the system is fair. The solution to increasing black representation at these schools is therefore not to eliminate the test and go to a quota placement system based on race, but to increase the number of black students taking the test and provide test prep for them. NYC already has free test prep available for these students. No article in the NYT so far has provided any statistics about this. How many slots can they accommodate? How many slots are filled? How much would it cost to expand it?
Regarding affirmative action, the irony is the students at Stuyvesant know that they got in purely based on the exam, and not because of any considerations of race. However, because of race-based admissions policies at Ivy League colleges, once one of those students got into all of these schools to which she applied, her achievement is tainted by questions of whether it was due to her race vs. her academic record.
241
@Bob Hi - I think you are misunderstanding much of what these students are saying. First, on data question, NYC has tried for about two decades to use free test prep classes, known as the DREAM program, to improve black and Hispanic student enrollment at the specialized high schools. The program has not made any dent in the admissions numbers, and in fact the percentage of black students at Stuyvesant has dropped consistently for 20 years. That's because, in part, no free city-run test prep can compete with years of private tutoring or summers of daily prep.
On the affirmative action piece, it's important to note how painful it was for these students, who are remarkably accomplished and whose accomplishments have everything to do with their talent and hard work, hear that they got into elite colleges only because they are black. It's essential here to recognize how painful that was. They are not arguing that they don't believe in affirmative action. They are asking to be recognized for their very real achievements.
64
@Eliza Shapiro Actually the DREAM program has made a different at some of the specialized high schools. The High School for Math, Science and Engineering, for example, has used the DREAM program and it has very balanced diversity (roughly 1/4 black, hispanic, white and asian) and is one of the most diverse high schools in the country. Stuyvesant, on the other hand, has not participated. So this debate is more nuanced and complicated that people like to believe.
39
@Bob
"questions of whether it was due to her race vs. her academic record
"Questions?"
There are no "questions," it's a fact.
Affirmative action judges people on the color of their skin, not the content of their character or merits or socioeconomic status.
Skin color is not a sufficient statistic for socioeconomic opportunity. We already have need-based financial aid.
Affirmative action is zero-sum racism that only serves to inflame racial divisions and make everyone question the merit of the special-minority students that get admitted/hired.
41
Has anyone ever considered that every kid deserves a really good education and not just these top few. The fact that you cannot just go to your local school and come out with what you need to get into college speaks to a sickness we have in our entire system. Other countries just have good schools, for everyone. As you can imagine, outcomes are much better. Why are we fighting over scraps?
177
@SM there are a number of great non-test high schools in NYC. In fact, many no-Asian middle class families decline the offer of a specialized high school admission for those schools. True, there are too few of them, high achievers are clustered in about 20 of them, but there are good options for hard working kids who do not want to be in these hypercompetative schools and have long commutes.
10
@SM
Stuyvesant is not a “good school.” It is an ordinary school populated by elite students.
9
@SM A very interesting thought indeed. There are approximately 734,000 kids in K-8. It sure would be nice
if they were all treated equally, and provided with same resources, and preparation. But I guess that kind of thinking only exists in other countries.
5
It would be interesting to see (by race and gender) the details on who took the test, was offered a seat, who enrolled
18
That many of the few black students currently at Stuyvesant are the children of immigrants from Africa tells us even more about the lack of representation of American blacks who've been the actual subjects of historic discrimination. I'd be curious what the black numbers would be if you did not count immigrants and their children.
236
@Naysayer
And the numbers if you exclude mixed-race students, who could just as easily be called "white" or "Korean" or whatever. (Yes, I understand that the important thing is whether you "identify" as black, but isn't defaulting to "black" every time there is a choice really just an extension of the evil "one-drop theory" of racial identity?)
Most of the kids quoted were either of mixed "racial" heritage or born of immigrant parents. I feel that this unexamined and un-noted fact points to what really needs to be investigated.
62
How about excluding children of ALL immigrants, all races? Many of the non-black students are also children of immigrants.
It’s not so simple as historic discrimination against blacks.
10
@Naysayer It also shows that a family that is discipled and values education can have their children attend an elite school. So, focus and effort are the determining criteria, not race.
29
“To have all my hard work, and all the work I’ve done throughout the years invalidated simply because I’m black, that hurt a lot,” she said.
This sentiment is shared and well-understood by white students whose hard work is reduced to, "You got in only because you are white." A sweet conundrum.
36
It rare that the concept of test prep evokes feelings, but clearly having the opportunity to practice for the exam made a significant difference in some of these students’ trajectories.
The mayor should pursue partnership with an organization like Khan Academy to offer free practice for all.
11
@Lolo
So then, we now have read hundreds of articles and thousands of comments alleging that rich Whites and poor Asians have unfair advantages over people of color and poor whites because of expensive SAT test prep. This theme is oft cited by the for-profit tutors and by social justice warriors, each for obvious reasons.
How many articles have shown that expensive test prep is better than just doing a few free sample tests? None, that’s how many.
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@Lolo
I just want to add to this that when Stuyvesant offered free test prep, parents at a middle school on Houston and the East River (40 minutes by bus, 25 minutes by bike away) wouldn't let their kids travel that far from home. This was in 2006.
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the challenge presented by the predictable results of admissions to select public high schools does not require altering or doing away with admissions tests although some changes might be welcome. the solution has to begin earlier, with a commitment to providing intensive resources for education before high school. in Baltimore we have two outstanding “prep” schools run by two Catholic orders for middle school boys and girls (separately). these schools identify candidates and families without standardized testing and then provide intensive educational and other support. this has proved to effectively prepare a cohort of students for admission to selective public and private high schools and universities.
New York: you’re losing the struggle before you begin
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I went to Stuyvesant in the 1980s, and while it was true that black students were a minority, it was truly a diverse community on every level: race, gender, and class. Kids from every borough and every background were there, and we all hung out together. There were no identity politics at the time - just the stoops on 14th st. where young people of all different colors, shapes, and sizes would congregate after the bell rang. Maybe it has changed, but back in the day I did not see Stuy as an homogenous, elitist institution. It was truly diverse, in a way that we did not fully appreciate at the time.
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‘75 Stuy graduate here to disagree only that we did appreciate the diversity of our community then, which was 13% black. 13%! Brilliant kids just part of the whole melting pot and good friends. I like the test, but this outcome of less than 1% is wrong AND detrimental to the community. Hoping for better leadership than we have seen to find an answer (and it won’t be just better test prep services - the idea of affirmative action holds the answer).
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Thank you for your reply. It makes me realize that in fact my impression of diversity was correct, and also that something has changed today. I agree that this unfortunate disparity needs to be addressed.
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@JH
Class of '81.
At the time, we joked (fairly accurately) that the school was about 30% Chinese, 30% Jewish, 10% Black, and 30% "Other," which included all other "Hispanic" and "White" groups. (By Chinese, we really meant Chinese, as there were almost no Thai, Vietnamese, Japanese, Indian, Pakistani, Indonesian, Malaysian, or other Asian students).
We thought it was great, and, as an Irish/Italian/German New Yorker, I enjoyed it.
It was also nice not to have the regularly-scheduled Springtime race riots that occurred every year at my local high school, where the black kids and white kids would have a free-for-all.
I had three good black friends there, two of whom remained close for decades. I had always thought they were happy, but shortly before she passed away one of them told me she was glad she had gone, but had always felt out of place and unaccepted, which made me sad. Unfortunately, I cannot investigate that further with her now.
I believe that the one reason why we had the barest minimum of racial cliquishness (especially compared to college) was that we had all had to pass the same test with the same grades, so there was no question that we were all smart and that we all deserved to be there.
I used to say that you could stop and have a deep conversation with anybody you ran into, which was something I adored about the place, and that I have never encountered since.
Ending the test would be a terrible tragedy.
Fixing primary schools is the way.
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The percentages at the school should reflect the percentages of the city. No if ands or buts. Skewed too far one way is inequality.
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@East Roast - Then they would no longer be selective schools. Inequality is a definition of merit-based admission.
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@East Roast That has been a kind of rationale in the "reservation" system practiced in India. In some states almost 70% of the seats are reserved based on caste categories. The result is that in the same class of engineering and medical students you can find individuals who have barely passing grades and completely unequipped to take advantage of the medical and engineering education being imparted to them. Many of there "quota candidates" then join Government Hospitals and other Government institutions and very same politicians who vote to create this system never go to the Government hospitals for their own treatment because they know there is upto 70% (or actually greater) chance of being treated by a "daktar" who is very poorly qualified and managed to "scrape by".
Politicians will always divert attention from their failings - their inability to provide good education broadly. Instead, they want to turn selective schools into some sort of a sop based on race. It is not as if the Asians are not a minority or not someone who were not discriminated in US. So what gives !
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