I would love, but don’t expect to see, a story about how corporate law firms, acting on behalf of their clients, are at the root of such offers. Perkins Coie, in Seattle, is Boeing’s primary provider of law services. Extremely culpable, in my opinion.
3
Yesterday I read a pretty compelling .pdf document purportedly written by a pilot. It said that Boeing changed the configuration of the 737 by adding an engine that was so large that it would no longer clear the ground. They apparently changed the configuration to accomodate the larger engine, and because they didn't want to have to declare it as a separate model and go through certification for it, they knowingly made software changes to attempt to deal with the pitch problems associated with the new engine position. The software changes made weren't adequately tested to make sure there were failsafe checks between the pilot and co-pilot's sensors. This, plus the fact that this is the first model that has had the plane default to automatic pilot control default rather than manual control seems like these changes were much more significant than just a longer range 737 should have.
If all this is true, in my book, at the very least, Boeing really screwed up, and at worst might possibly have done something criminal.
2
Suspicious that Lion Air had an extensive list of contractors involved with Boeing's production included in the "no suit" agreement. I would guess you need Boeing to supply that detail. Why would Lion Air go out of it's way to protect Boeing's subcontractors? I would wonder if Boeing is behind the lengthly list. Boeing engineers knew MCAS has a risk before the Lion Air crash. Internal discussions at Boeing about managing the liability of the Lion Air crash will probably reveal clear knowledge of the design flaw(s) and fault. Who at Boeing is willing to do the right thing and reveal what Boeing knew and when?
3
Can you imagine the pain & grief if your family was on board this airplane? It's tragic! You have to sympathize with the families who lost relatives in this horrific accident...never to see again!
1
The Trump Administration is fond of pointing to wiping out tons of regulations as proof of its "success." Be warned that companies like LionAir are what happens when you wipe out too many regulations. Business without brakes is business without conscience or ethics, racking up crimes, outrages, and victims.
5
"“They’ve blocked my number,” Ms. Vinni said of Lion Air’s senior management. “It’s awful how the company treats us. We are victims, too.”
Current pilots flying for Lion Air take note. This is how your family will be treated if they refuse to sell their soul to the devil by taking a paltry basic payout, and not suing the airline or the airplane manufacturer.
16
Lawyers. Lawsuits.
While i’m not a fan of rapacious attorneys, this is a case where they should swoop in and get those “agreements “ overturned.
This is also a case of depraved indifference and those responsible should be fined very very very heavily and put in jail.
Although when you look at Manafort and the other recent criminals who got slaps on their wrists, it probably ain’t gonna happen.
We in the US. Have to “take back our country “ in 2020. It is an existential crisis.
7
The safety features were optional, some counties chose to wave them to save 6000 or so dollars. This practice is not acceptable in aviation. It is used by home depot and some car dealers.It is a rip of and should banned .
31
In Canada Boeing’s decision to charge extra for software “options” that could have saved hundreds of lives and not to require special pilot training to deal with faulty sensors and non disclosure in flight manuals of the dangers caused by moving the plane’s centre of gravity forward and the so-called software fix is cause for charges against against Boeing management for criminal negligence causing death, hopefully the FBI will recommend charges to Seattle and Chicago Grand Juries.
25
Lion Air underhanded & crafty offer to pay off relatives of the crash victims is to be condemned. Beside the fact that Lion Air is not directly responsible, legal action should be taken against Boeing for gross negligence in rushing to certify & manufacture an unsafe airplane. As much as Boeing would like to bury the truth & this matter to go away...the truth & facts will always come to light.
16
There should be an "all hands on deck" investigation of Boeing by our Congress in regards to this story. It should start with subpoenas from every relevantly-involved committee in Congress. These actions, if true, involving Boeing are "beyond the pale."
To collect the money, families had to sign a pledge, called a release and discharge, that they would not pursue legal action against Lion Air, its financial backers and insurers, as well as Boeing, which manufactured the nearly brand-new 737 Max 8 plane. Moreover, the signers promised not to disclose the terms of the agreement itself.
5
Lion has tight connection to Indonesia Government just as Boeing with the US Govt.
6
Heartless strong-arming of families of victims that Lion and Boeing were RESPONSIBLE for killing?
And the sleaziest, most corrupt backroom actions?
On top of criminal negligence and culpability for killing hundreds of people?
9
Corporate fraud and malfeasance in the era of end-stage vulture capitalism. It will do in the human race.
4
Boeing is responsible for this and is clearly using Lion Air to avoid paying- this must pay for their malfeasance.
4
« Unorthodox document » said the American lawyer on Lion Air’s doubtful proposition to victim’s families in the Indonesian tragedy. Hopefully Boeing is not involved in such a shameful manoeuvre. Otherwise we can ask in what world are we evolving?
5
Since the contracts are illegal the families should just take the money and then sue them anyway. What's the problem?
2
Obviously, this is a tender situation that calls for etiquette beyond what may be expected under normal circumstances.
But let'sbe honest.
It's only in America where you can sue anybody and everybody who could be remotely connected to that aircraft.
Overseas, all victims are covered by international agreements and treaties that call cap on compensation. It's writtenin the back of your ticket. It is not allowed in America involving anything to do with Americans, or US based companies.
I hate to be blunt - one reason the lawyers prefer a crash with American equipment and their contractors because for the most part - Americans have the deepest pockets.
So, this tussle between the survivors and possible defendants is par for the course.
I don't think any one intentionally wants to treat any one like "animals."
When lawsuits are filed, the jury, judge and others will apply relevant local laws - but not American laws in Indonesia.
NDAs need to be banned across the board where matters of safety (such as the GM ignition switches), criminal negligence, or crime (sexual assault) are involved. Where corporations are involved they already have limited liability, which in the cases of tobacco, bank fraud, and now global warming, they are interpreting as no liability
1
Yeah, these are obviously Releases prepped by Boeing’s Lawyers. Execution of such a Release is required to settle a case. Here, however, nothing beyond the government-mandated payment seems to have been made. Therefore, it could be argued that there was no consideration given for the execution and delivery of the Release, which, hence, is null and void.
Some smart lawyer will try that theory out, if he/she can get a plaintiff family or two.
My goodness... The inhumanity that corporate paychecks seem to inspire. I know now why I left that world.
The gift that one human being offers another is contrition for mistakes and misdeeds. If we lose this governing principle, we reject our humanity. Nothing... nothing... is worth rejecting this elemental principle.
1
"Families said they were not allowed to take home copies of the release form to study it before signing."
How and when did a piece of paper, a small coin of metal called currency used to trade for the basic needs and services for one's survival gain such power? When did these objects of paper and metal become more revered than human life?
This is a virus of pandemic proportion that permeates our entire planet.
3
There should be an international safety standard that airlines have to meet. I flew on Lion Air 3 weeks ago, as it was the only airline available to fly to my destination on that day. It was the worst airline I have ever flown on. Aside from the appalling customer service, this low cost carrier made me pay three times the price of my ticket for a 16 kilo suitcase, I simply had no other choice once I was at the airport and earlier inquiries went unanswered. My visa was out and in retrospect, I should have walked away. In addition to no service, we flew through turbulence, most of the flight (I fly a lot, this doesn't happen anymore). At one point I looked out the window and a plane was passing directly underneath us, and I could see the passenger's faces. I have never been so happy to be off a plane in my life. I chose a pricier airline, with a better reputation for my flight home, but the focus on cost over quality has made flying a miserable way to get around. Instead of minimum regulations, perhaps airlines should be asked to achieve minimum standards and be certified as such. Everyone is focused on the few people who fly first class, but if airlines were rated on safety and quality, people would pay a little more to get a decent economy ride. I flew Emirates last year, it was not a lot more costly, it just happened to be going where I was going, certainly if they can achieve this quality others can. I hope Lion Air is out of business next year, they deserve it.
10
This is despicable and reprehensible.
I hope the families didn't succumb by realizing that they had a lot more power than to accept the least they could be given for losing a family member (in Indonesia). $91K may be a lot to some people but even making that offer was appalling! If all these families accept this minimum payment it will cost Boeing approximately 10% of the price of 1 plane! This is why their risk/benefit analysis favored taking the risk. No incentive to not go for the risky bet next time.
36
@BG
The only incentive (to corporations) to not continue practices that put public safety at risk is to jail the executives. Nothing else (money) works.
4
First, the families have the option of not signing the agreements. If they choose to, that is their choice. Second, even if one assumes that the cause of the crash was incorrect sensor data going to the MCAS system (likely based on what has been published), the blame clearly lies with the pilots and airline. The airline chose to continue flying a plane that had exhibited severe problems on its previous flight and did not bother repairing the plane. Lion Air also chose not to purchase two safety systems related to the MCAS system nor, it appears, did they train the pilots how to disable the system. These last issues also apply to the Ethiopian Air crash.
9
@Rob-Chemist
1. The safety systems should have been an intrinsic part of the aircraft. An aircraft manufacturer should not make "safety" an option.
2. Boeing specifically declared that no additional pilot training was needed.
So, they knowingly provided a craft unsafe unless the pilots obtain special training on its use, then told the airlines that no such training was needed!
It almost sounds like this was a plan from the start. Yeah, I know that's a stretch -- but it fits.
21
Lion Air as well as many pilots in US had no idea that a system called MCAS existed in MAX models. This being the case, your comment seems to be incorrect.
8
@Rob-Chemist
You can't be serious. Where are you getting your facts?
This is not like buying a car and purchasing safety options like blind spot awareness. Safety options should not be an option!
Pilots had no idea how to turn off the MCAS system and all Boeing required was for them to look at an i-pad for about an hour. Boeing chose profit over the safety of the passengers. They need to pay for that Faustian bargain.
14
When oligarchs run the show the common people are expendable. It's both a horror and not complicated. It's a fundamental awareness that has helped humanity make progressive advances over the centuries. Lately the oligarchs are reasserting themselves and winning. And there's no reason to think it's going to stop with a couple plane crashes.
50
@Jamila Kisses
Jamila, unfortunately corporate practices such as this have been going on for a long time. Public safety is continually put at risk, and corporations occasionally face large fines given by the government. Unless the executives are prosecuted and jailed if the evidence holds, the behavior will never change.
4
Lion Air would have no vested interest in negotiating an agreement to protect Boeing and hundreds of Boeing’s sub-contractors. Who helped Lion Air draft these contracts?
36
@AAA - Considering how Boeing is already in the hot seat for nickel-and-diming their customers by charging them for "added SAFETY" features that were NOT sold as part of the baseline standard delivery of aircraft tells you enough.
I think a full investigation, deep and wide, needs to take place. The FBI needs to pull servers and all communications that took place right after Lion Air went down.
9
@AAA
Well. Lion would actually have a serious interest in getting all potential defendants released in order to avoid a “...Claim Over...”. For example, say the family of a deceased sued a sub which had worked on the system in question.
If only Lion had been releases by that Plaintiff family, then the sub could join Lion as a defendant and “...claim over...” on the theory that the accident was really the fault of the pilots, for example.
1
"We are humans, not animals. We deserve dignity." For the corporations and governments on this planet, this seems to be anathema.
30
“I am not an engineer,” he said. “There are so many documents that I don’t know.”
These may be the truest words ever to leave this disgraceful person’s mouth.
12
Reckless disregard of people's safety. No real corporate accountability. And the trusting, "little" people pay the price. This is Bhopal all over again!
19
In 2015, Stewart Parnell executive of Peanut Corporation of America (PCA) was sentenced to 28 years in prison for a salmonella outbreak in 2008 that killed nine people; the sentencing recommendation was life in prison.
Boeing Corporation has murdered 346 individuals in 60 days. Will anyone go to prison?
68
@Candlewick
How is it possible that an airline with a reputation for quality and safety has become a monster corporation of greed. The more we learn about these crashes the more we realize the terror the pilots and passengers experienced before God welcomed them into his arms.
It reminds me of the O rings where NASA knew that there was a problem with them yet didn’t do the right thing and the Space Shuttle exploded. NASA allowed the shuttle to take off and the world watched on TV that right before our eyes the shuttle exploded.
There is nothing different with this tragedy except the sad fact we never learn anything . It’s always about money and the lives of human beings don’t matter the bottom line is always cost and profit.
The public deserves justice on memory of all of the lives lost.
3
The average monthly earnings of Indonesians is shockingly low, around $3500 annually from what I have read. $91,000 is alot of money in that context.
1
So if the income was $75k then this would be $2m in rough numbers. Is that what a life is worth? Tough question to answer
8
@Thomas I thinks the majority of the late passengers were middle to high rank officials who had middle-upper income. I'm also absolutely sure that $91k is not enough to fund A wife and ONE child through 4 years of their lives, except they want to move to small town in somewhere in Indonesia and extremely decrease their lifestyle (perhaps can go through 5-7 years with the money)
7
This is a difficult case for Boeing to escape
No matter how much blame is placed on pilots and airlines
15
Perhaps the victims of the Ethiopian flight can negotiate a better settlement and additional restitution for the victims in Indonesia.
14
Every detail that comes reveal Boeing to be a despicable corporation.
And yet no one will be jailed for this crime that killed hundreds of people.
50
First came the wreckless carelessness with the lives of passengers - on doomed flights. And also on flights that got to their destinations but might not have.
Next came the utter disrespect to those who were left behind, by the need to stiff the families who lost loved ones.
And all of that on top of so much evidence of greed and misuse of power, flowing from the very top - politicians in bed with corporate greed.
This is so disheartening.
17
It was reported this week that the Justice Dept. opened an investigation into Boeing. Hope this is part of the investigation.
18
Anything Trump Justice Dept take on against a U.S. company will be all for naught; there are simply too many dots between Boeing, DJT and his underlings. The only fair and impartial judgment against the U.S. firms will be by Europeans, such as the most recent $1.7B Google penalty. I am not hopeful a fair assessment will result from our own Justice dept. Let us save some hard earned tax dollars. shall we?
While we are on the subject, why did DJT decide when to ground the MAX? He is least qualified among all the 4th graders in the nation.
18
Lion Air will lose this, and now people are going to prison. This was a huge mistake.
7
Last month before the latest crash,.we flew a Southwest Airline 737 MAX on one of the legs from Albany to San Diego The flight was delayed because the pilot had to fill out paperwork for disabling the anti-stall mechanism. Some of us passengers looked at each other quizzically asking "why would you do that?" Now we know why. It appears that some airlines were in the know about this defect before the second crash, and others, third-world perhaps, weren't. The anti-stall feature was implemented so that expensive pilot retraining wouldn't be needed, giving Boeing a competitive advantage over Airbus. The planes should have been grounded in October but profits overruled safety. . So it doesn't surprise me that the victims families appear to have been cheated out of the right to sue. A hundred years ago, the CEO of such a company would have resigned in disgrace and have been treated as a social outcast. Today he or she will leave with a multi-million dollar severance package sit on corporate and philanthropic boards. .
91
@Nana2roaw This whole settlement transaction is not legal under US law: the pressure to sign, not being allowed to consult an attorney, etc. Litigation should be brought in the US as Boeing is located here and the venue to litigate under US law would allow that. This whole kettle of fish seems to smell more and more as time goes on.
18
@Nana2roaw
Interesting anecdote. In an earlier NY Times article about this topic, United Airlines was reported to "have information" about the problems associated with the Super Max 8 plane, and the article suggested United didn't need to be clued in further on questions about software, and what it takes to manage an awkwardly built plane.
Are American pilots turning the problem feature off as a matter of course? And flying the plane fully aware that it has an inherent flaw? Compensating for it with raw skill, manually?
If the FBI is going to investigate this fully, then maybe all pilots need to be released from any non-disclosure agreement Boeing and the parent airline might require they sign in order to be a pilot of the 737 Max 8 plane.
6
Boeing, Lion Air and the FAA, you have a lot of blood on your hands and much explaining to do. One question that I have is why would ANY safety features on a commercial jetliner be ‘optional’? Isn’t that like car manufacturers making brakes optional? Really? Congress, where are you? Are you going to investigate this, or not? Do you not care about the safety of the flying public? We have lost our trust and demand answers, now. Call your Senators and members of Congress and demand an investigation. Why did it take so long before the 737 Max 8 was grounded? Something’s fishy, obviously. There may well be criminality here. Is the FAA awake at the wheel, or is Boeing in control? We need answers folks. This should never happen again.
49
@Hk. These are purely emotional positions. You have no basis to make these claims without a lot more facts, which no one has yet. Are you intimately familiar with the avionics software systems? Do you know the ins and outs of MCAS (assuming it is even the cause, which remains to be seen). Do you know the functions, parameters and limitations of all of the optional systems and how important they really are? No one is talking about the safety equivalent of brakes. There are many systems in cars that are “add ons” that are marketed as safety related, such as lane departure warnings, collision avoidance systems, intermittent wipers and auto dimming headlights. Are these all “mandatory” simply because they could add to safety?
I wish the NYT readers as a whole would focus more on fact based analyses and descision making rather than emotional appeals based on half baked logic. The country would be much better for it.
@Hk
Congress opened an investigation on March 18. Before asking why something isn't happening, check to make sure it isn't happening. Took me 5 seconds on Google.
The appalling cruelty of Boeing et.al., is staggering. But they’ll continue to reap in the billions, because they’re TOO BIG TO FAIL! Where have we heard that same rationale before? We’re looking at you felonious banks of the U.S.A.
30
Re: "...Family members next to the grave of Jannatun Cintya Dewi, a passenger on Lion Air Flight 610, during her funeral in East Java last year..."
Deities, above, forbid...but...
Were I / any family member injured or killed in a transportation-related incident like these 737-crashes, and...
ANYONE, from any source, approached me to NOT civilly, involve / punish the parties, responsible...I'd ask them if they had their 'home, 'N, car-ownership' papers...handy!
Since they probably WOULDN'T be carrying such documents, I'd end the conversation by informally, (and, later, formally!), 'inviting' them / their attorney(s), to the court in which my civil suit was scheduled!
1
The Toronto Star is also reporting that the federal regulatory aviation authority there also provided passenger liabiltiy limits to the carriers flying this exact plane. I presume Boeing specifically lobbied the Trudeau administration for this.
13
This is a prime example of where someone from Boeing should be getting some jail time and not just being fined.
57
Publish the percentage lawyer's receive from settlements with their statements to be fair and holistic about their own conflict of interest in making the statements they make. Of course lawyers are going to whip the outrage through the press. Evidence collection and investigations of these crashes are still ongoing. Let those conclude before passing judgment on businesses as entities and the thousands of people and hundreds of organizations involved in plane manufacture, maintenance, and flight.
6
You are equivocating. Are you Boeing PR or something? Who makes a comment like this? When a company decides profit supersedes customer safety, they deserve to have a bunch of lawyers surround them like sharks. Sounds like Boeing and Lion Air made a calculated risk that they could earn more profits by irresponsible cost cutting. Guess what - they lost the draw, and now they’re going to pay. Probably not enough.
21
Who is going to want to fly after this? A company trying to--I don't know--cut costs?, bringing down confidence in an entire industry. Amtrak is looking a lot better.
53
I flew with lion air once. It was awful. But there was no other airline doing the trip...
3
This is disgusting. Boeing, the law firms that came up with the inhumane and unconscionable releases, and its suppliers and Lion Air should be sued by all victims and they should collectively receive US$1 trillion, yes bankrupt Boeing and its lawyers.
76
Exposure to legal liability is not typically in the purview of law firms’ operations
1
Mitt Romney said "corporations are people" and it appears that Boeing contains lots of unscrupulous folks interested only in the gold.
36
We were told by the Robert's Court that Corporations are people, yet I've never heard of a corporation sentenced to jail time.
The money offered to all victims of Lion's Air ($16.380.000) were less than what the CEO of Boeing received in compensation 2017 ($18.500.000)
Do these people have mirrors in their homes? If yes, how can they look at themselves in the mirror every single day?
Society calls people like Ted Bundy psychopath. What about those greedy CEO's whose decisions caused the death of hundreds.
Like White-collar criminals, "white-collar psychopaths" always get a pass.
72
@Chaks I think you have discovered the ultimate truth: Corporations are people in the sense that the heads of corporations are people.
2
The only thing more disgusting than Boeing making safety optional, is preying on the distraught and grieving survivors to lock them into lowball settlements and further abdicate their responsibility for manslaughter.
99
@Skip Bonbright Why is making certain safety systems optional disgusting? The same situation is true for cars in that many systems that improve safety are extra cost options. Do you really want to force everyone to buy every possible safety system for their cars? And, if you have not installed a safety system in your car, and god forbid, someone is hurt or killed, would you want to be charged with manslaughter?
5
@Rob-Chemist I doubt the safety systems in cars you speak of actually cause a crash resulting in death. They may improve the odds of coming out safely in the event of a crash but that's a different thing.
28
@Rob-Chemist We make people buy safety belts. We make them buy good bumpers. We make them buy headrests. We make them buy airbags. We make them buy padded dashboards. Why? Because it is both humane and good for society to not have people victimized by companies trying to save a few dollars when the cost/ benefit ratio is so compelling. Yes, there are silly additions that would make little difference, but these are things that tell the pilots that the electronic system that was based on only a single sensor has failed them. They cost little to add, and they could have prevented a great loss of human life.
14
This incident is a culmination of unregulated special interests hijacking politicians through legalized bribery. Trump has taken the collusion between politicians and corporations to a whole new level. It’s now a free for all. Let’s cut every corner unless we can make a buck off it. Who cares if some people in some third world country dies?
America is headed towards becoming persona non grata because it’s clear that we will sell our own and everyone else’s grandmothers to make a buck for the rich and the dumb public will continue to vote of the corrupt politicians as long as they oppose abortion, etc.
28
@NB: Thank the self-serving Supreme Oligarchs, er, I mean Court, for the 'legal' decisions which enabled this corporate behavior.
10
No corporation wants its misdeeds to be aired in court. Might affect sales to see their greed on display and the sorrow and anger of the grieving families on full, public display.
10
Pressuring victims to accept a minimum amount along with a release and discharge and confidentiality agreement is typical in the United States. I agree it is shocking when lives were lost, but it is SOP.
11
No wonder the Indonesian government is not defending the crash victims here. First of all, in Indonesia, common citizens are often defenseless and the government rarely takes their side. It's even more so when big companies like Lion Air and Boeing are involved. It's quite unlikely that the Indonesian government will confront Boeing considering how much it's involved in the country's military. See:
https://www.boeing.com/global/boeing-southeast-asia/indonesia/index.page
"Boeing was awarded the contract to build Apache helicopters for Indonesia in 2015." among other Boeing's "contributions" to the nation. Sigh.
8
Well, you can't say Boeing doesn't react quickly to some potential problems.
10
A few years back I noticed, on consecutive visits, the hot water at my laundromat was lukewarm. I complained to the attendant. My next visit I checked and the hot water was cold. "It's cold!" I said. He went into a back room, came out a moment later blameless and w a shrug of his shoulders said: "The pilot light went out."
Boeing slapping a corrective software patch onto a plane that even to an untrained eye looks awkward and un-aerodynamic is no different. It's sucking the last cent from the American consumer, whatever the cost, whatever the risk, left, right, high, low.
6
Where did Lion Air get the vendor list? Odds are that Boeing provided it to Lion Air. The source should be researched by both the Congressional Committees and by the FBI. Probably was transmitted by email.
24
@tommag1
Only Boeing could supply the vendor list presented to the families of the victims. Which means Boeing was in a conspiracy to prevent the families of those their defective system killed from pursuing their legal options.
I'm certain that is a criminal act. So, while Boeing the corporation cannot serve jail time, those that concocted this scheme certainly can.
Boeing should have two options: Identify those responsible -- not just for this action, but also for the decision to avoid "alarming" their customers by describing the potential danger. Or go under. This unconscionable behavior must not go unpunished.
Decisions are made by people. Not corporations. The people are to be identified and punished.
11
Can Boeing and the airlines get any lower? Coercing grieving relatives to sign away their rights so soon after the crash is disgusting. It's not going to surprise me in the lest when the FBI and numerous other investigations into Boeing's rush to get this plane to market turn up the internal emails and documents showing that they knew full well that this plane had safety issues.
23
I hope the families or estates of the victims successfully sue the pants off Boeing.
I hope the families or estates of the victims of the Ethiopian Airlines disaster do the same thing.
I hope that the Board of Directors of Boeing fire the CEO and the heads of sales, engineering and production for allowing a defective product to be built and sold.
68
The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.
Boeing is a major big-money recipient from the military-industrial cash trough, and that lone makes them an unethical corporation, as they build weapons of death.
In this case, their greed caused them to "apparently" cover up or downplay inherent design and software flaws in their planes. And then they try to strong-arm the grieving families of those who died on their planes, to protect Boeing.
We must also remember that the head of Boeing called Trump when the second plane crashed, asking Trump to say nice things about the plane.
Raw capitalism is without ethics or conscience.
34
A life sentence in prison is a good way to deal with sociopathic CEOs of corporations who possess no moral compass or the ability to feel empathy for another human being.
38
@Claudia That kind of sentence only happens in China...
3
@D: Actually, it's more likely that a bullet to the head, (for which the family of the guilty would be made to pay) would be the sentence.
1
And that’s why China is now winning and going to take over the world. They actually seem to hold business people accountable when they act shamefully and embarrass their country on the world stage. Watch the CEO of Boeing be elected US president in a few years.
3
Corporations are people, according to the law. They are often the ugliest of people, seeking only profit and power and trampling on human life and decency.
51
@Kat They even have their own show on television: The Profit.
5
@Kat - Corporations are people only when it benefits them. They are fictional legal entities when it comes to liability.
21
Corporations didn’t use to be “people” - only since the Citizens United bill passes a few years ago giving them that status. #EndCitizensUnited !
11
I am Indonesian and I am very sick of American capitalism. If I were a lawyer, I would represent these families pro bono against Boeing.
41
@Cindy - In the US, most personal injury lawyers represent clients on a continency basis. They only get paid if they win, and then they get a certain percentage. The costs of major lawsuits like this are high, and lawyers take the risk that they can lose millions.
5
Boeing is just another sociopathic corporation.
Corporations are like spoiled toddlers. They will push relentlessly, endlessly if they are allowed to get their way (more cookies, more candy, gimme gimme gimme, I want it all, I want it now). As a parent, I would never tolerate or allow it. Children need rules and boundaries, otherwise they become monsters. It's not healthy for the toddler or the family.
So. Why are we as a nation allowing corporations to live unregulated in our society? Corporations are sociopaths. They need to be regulated. They need consequences. Unregulated capitalism is not healthy for the corporation or the nation.
64
Horrifying. Gross. The GREED, the corruption! How do people get so ugly?
My heart and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of the dead.
17
DIGNITY. Maybe airlines and plane manufacturing excecutives need a dignity flight simulator to practice that human quality which seems to be lacking on every level of investigations being (mis) conducted on their behalf.
From outside, It looks like everybody in the industry is cozying up to regulators and dispensing with updating safety measures because of competing pressure;last year the same Boeing entity was going all out to destroy the entry of the Bombardier C series into the American market. After failing to obtain the exorbitant penalties it was seeking,it went all out to acquire Embraer:more time spent,more expenses....which could and should have been expended elsewhere?
These behind the scene maneuvers were and remain time and energy consuming and may in part account for some distraction from the bread and butter business of the company.
As for the rudeness and lack of basic humanity from lawyers working on behalf of giant corporations ,we in Brazil need only to look down upon Vale:the gross mishandling of their dams ,and the utter destruction of thousands of square km of natural resources ,hundreds of civilian deaths ,met with a single concern:signing of documents relieving the company of any responsibility or claim, against a shabby disbursement of compensatory funds. DIGNITY should be made mandatory for the MBA curriculum. It is urgent.
17
Of course they were pressured that's how companies keep their wallets nice and fat.
Murder charges for anyone at Boeing and the FAA if it is found to be a direct result of profit over peoples lives.
I think is past due that corporations who made up the catch phrase "we are people too" start being legally treated like people in a criminal sense.
Start naming names at Boeing and the FCC.
18
Corporate America has a friend in high places. Trump.
This is why the Boeing CEO called Trump and asked for who knows what.....
56
That is so gross! So disheartening to learn about the level of greed and avoidance responsibilty. Where are we as poeple?
Stop this train, I want to get off.
15
First, raise your hand if you’re an expert in international or Indonesian aviation law. Exactly, nobody here is.
Second, they either signed or they didn’t. How were they “forced”? I know people who have lost loved ones in aviation accidents, you either sign and take the offer or you don’t sign and don’t take it.
Third, people have already sued Boeing in US courts? For what, exactly? We have no idea what caused these crashes.
The hysteria around this story gets bigger and bigger every day. Boy would I love to tell all the Boeing haters some Airbus stories (starting with what pilots call it: Scarebus).
7
@Mike You already raised your hand to show what you stand for. At least in part. We don't want to know what else you stand for.
32
@Ronald Weinstein How about reason? We have no idea - none - what caused these crashes, and NYT readers are calling for Boeing executives to be prosecuted for murder. It's absolutely absurd.
5
@Mike - actually we have a pretty good idea, as you know.
5
Shame! It is far easier to do the right thing than be low and deceitful.
9
Why aren't the families suing Boeing?
2
Why would they be suing Boeing when we have no idea what caused either accident?
5
@Majortrout Indonesia does not have a lawsuit culture like the US. Most people are poor, uneducated and do not know their rights, nor do they have access to an advocate. This story is very heart breaking. I am so upset. I am Indonesian.
14
@Mike
Bloomberg has reported that the SAME plane had the SAME problem the day before, and it was handled by a "deadheading" pilot who happened to be sitting in the cockpit jump seat.
So Boeing and Lion Air should have been on notice.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-19/how-an-extra-man-in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed
Quote:
As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.
That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.
The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.
End Quote
7
Sadly, it is far from uncommon for lawyers and their clients to mislead or intimidate the lay public.
It's things like this, and landlords placing illegal terms in their rental agreements, or businesses including unenforceable terms in their employment contracts. All so that people are unaware of, or unable to exercise, their lawful rights.
8
@Arnav Sood Most lawyers in Indonesia act on behalf of their own monetary or political interests. Very few actually want to defend the poor and helpless. Even if there are, I'm not sure if anyone is ready to take on a case against a Goliath like Boeing, which I'm guessing probably has contracts with the Indonesian government or military. That further complicates things and minimizes chances of winning. On top of that, Indonesia doesn't really have a lawsuit culture like the US. Presented with a US$90k settlement, most ordinary Indonesians would almost definitely prefer to settle rather than going through an uncertain legal battle that can cost them more money. To them (or us, because I'm Indonesian) it's just not worth it. If I were a lawyer though, I'd definitely would represent these people against Boeing. Justice needs to be served.
6
The international as well as relevant national tribunals should prosecute.
NOW!
This is cover up of murder. Mass Murder.
95
Prosecute for what? The investigation has barely started. You're just baying for blood.
9
@PeteH
Try prosecution for any or all of:
1. Building a product unfit for its intended use (Boeing)
2. Selling a product unfit for its intended use (Boeing)
3. Negligent operation of the aircraft (given that the day before the SAME plane had the SAME malfunction, which was corrected by the suggestion of a "deadheading" pilot who happened to be sitting in the cockpit jumpseat, and the plane was evidently NOT reparied) (Lion Air)
4. Failure of the manufacturer and airline to correct a known defect (Boeing and Lion Air)
Likely there are more causes of action.
That is what they should be prosecuted for.
17
@Joe From Boston Your points 1 and 2 are completely off base. The plane under normal circumstances is completely safe to fly. Point 3 is certainly correct. Point 4 is only half correct - upon becoming aware of the problem, Boeing initiated a fix of the software. Unfortunately, writing and testing new software for a device as complicated as a commercial jet takes more than a couple hours.
Every day this is worse - more layers peeled away from the greedy corporate onion that is Boeing.
Nice job, FAA! What would we do without you?
46
Boeing is the FAA. Their placeholder (unconfirmed) is in place per Trump.
11
This shameful predatory behavior is NOT the capitalism of Democracy. This is the democracy of facism and other highly repressive regimes. Yes, there may be an infinity of claimable versions of capitalism.
(c) 2019
22
A lot can be inferred from the photo of people looking through personal items recovered from the crash: Piles of items dumped on the ground?
11
Does Boeing have any copies of the agreement that were signed? Did anyone at Boeing have any knowledge of this form agreement giving up victim's rights?
25
The FAA is complicit in Boeing's egregious, if not horrifying, wrong-doings over the Max 8 airliner. The FAA shouldn't have granted approval to a plane that did not have software override capabilities for the pilots, or sufficient training requirements to understand how to command the software in the event of emergencies. Further, Congress and the President have cut the FAA budget through the years, rendering their oversight less effective. The buck stops with our President and lawmakers to ensure that the FAA is fully-funded and doing it's job. The moral liability rests with Boeing to ensure the safety of all who fly in their aircraft. Money and profits rule across the board. Ultimately, just another example of how the Trump Administration turns it back on humanity in favor of $$$ in corporations' pockets.
78
Include legislation which would not permit government shutdowns!
15
I am reminded of a candidate for president saying to a heckler “corporations are people too, my friend”.
If that’s the case, we should see some corporations behind bars for this and similar crimes.
127
@MG "But, but, I didn't mean it that way!" That man is now in the United States Senate, where he can perpetuate the plutocracy and stoke his grandiosity thinking himself a good church and family man doing the right things for our nation. Praise him.
3
There is no end to unregulated corporate greed and larceny.
All countries need a strong government in place to enforce decency, humanity and justice....whether that be Lion Air or Boeing.....companies need to pay a fair price for their corporate negligence and complete lack of customer service.
Boeing has already significantly modified their defective MCAS, a software that is 'necessary' only because Boeing rushed out the flawed unaerodynamic 737 Max 8 product to compete for orders and greedy profits with Airbus, and that action is an admission of guilt and fault design.
The Lion Air victims' families deserve a lot more cash from Boeing and its penny-pinching, greedy executives and shareholders.
Prison time would also be a nice gift for Boeing executives, too....negligent homicide is a crime.
206
@Socrates
Corporations and their executives do not go to jail. They do not admit wrong doing/guilt. They argue in court, delay as long as possible and settle quickly and cheaply.
12
@robert
Not strictly true. Enron’s CEO and CFO did and Kenny boy died before he could.
In general, I get your point though.
6
I worked for a commercial insurance broker and I will never forget the head of the aviation practice telling me to never accept anything or waive your rights if the airline offers something. I tell all my family and friends this.
94
I am reminded of that quote from the McCarthy hearings: "have you no shame." When will this growing list of corporate greed end---when someone in a corner asks that question---have we no shame.
133
Everywhere we look, from the college admissions scandals, Donald J. Trump's checkered business career, underscored by the testimony from his lawyer/fixer and now the heartless treatment of the victims of Boeing's flawed airliner, greed is the driver of evil. If this is capitalism at work, give me socialism any day. Oh, and put those responsible in prison.
277
@chipscan I just emailed a friend of mine the same thing. I am now thinking Capitalism is EVIL!! Seriously!! And Yes, I have read "Animal Farm."
6
The "cover your assets" demand for a no-fault, "it wasn't me" behavior is the new way of doing business whether by politicians, publicly-held corporations or presidents. Accountability and taking the high road no longer exist in high places.
Karma and hubris will eventually play out but in the meantime the bodies and financial devastation continue for those on the low end of the scale.
37
Corporations, reckless whenever not under regulation.
38
@Richard. Do you know who regulates Lion Air?
3
Even worse. But the principal responsibility for both crashes lies with our regulators (the FAA) and Boeing.
Regulators in almost all other countries said: we are grounding this plane because we do not yet know the reason for the crashes.
Regulators in our country, and Boeing, said: we are NOT grounding this plane because we do not yet know the reason for the crashes.
Guess which regulators were protecting the flying public.
152
@Richard Seems like some of the blame is on Lion Air.
5
". . . families were still mourning relatives lost in the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia when they were crammed into a hotel conference room a few weeks after the crash. Sign this form, they were told by employees of the low-cost carrier, and they would receive 1.3 billion rupiah, or $91,600."
This day keeps getting worse. How outlandish the depths some people will go, especially in a time of unfathomable grief and loss.
How I wish there was some kind of relief for victims site folks like me could contribute to.
I am so appalled and angered by the actions of Lion Air.
121
Lion Air has always been an appalling airline, on many levels
13
@Marge Keller And yet, Boeing stockholders will applaud such efforts to limit the liability.
9
@PeteH
And the person who was proud to shut down the Government and the FAA.
11