The obvious, simple, immediate solution is to rescind Article 20 and return to the E.U. as before all this began. No sane argument against this choice can withstand the appalling mess that prevails for all other choices.
But this option ends March 29. Looks like the crazies will let this obvious solution lapse without consideration, one more indication that the Country’s welfare is the farthest thing from Parliament’s mind, to misuse ‘mind’, a common turn of phrase.
1
Here we have a leader trying to follow the guidance of her country's citizens' votes stymied by the rich Lords' votes. In America we have complicity between the rich lord and the rich representatives of the People. Either way, the People lose. It's time to stop the charade and admit the People's wishes no longer count. Take the dictators down through legal processes or lose all freedom completely.
1
@Angelsea
Your first sentence expresses a richly idiosyncratic view of the situation.
No way. We don't have any more time to donate for free to the UK.
It’s the “hotel California “ Brexit: you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.
Ah, for the days when Britain was the most powerful country in the world! The US is next unfortunately.
Unfortunately, the Brits set their own table and now the dinner bell is ringing. In three years they've been unable to make palatable the mess being served, for the plainly apparent reason that it is undigestible. The Continent would be perfectly within rights to reject the extension request, and make England face reality. Lump it or leave it.
An absurdity here I don’t see discussed is that the Prime Minister of Scotland predicts that, if Britain leaves the EU, Scotland will vote to leave the UK. She says (interviews in the U.S. last month) that the main reason that Scotland didn’t earlier vote to leave the UK was because Britain was in the EU! So, Brexit is credibly about breaking up the UK.
Moreover, the London metro area did not vote to leave the EU. Presumably Northern Ireland doesn’t want to leave the EU (nor the UK). So, Brexit is largely about rural England vis-à-vis metro England, not the UK’s relation to the EU.
The 2016 vote—ill-informed and misled (arguably invalid, in that respect)—was 4% more rural voters of England than the rest of the UK (that's one voter in every 21), something that should require 60% for leaving before even beginning the process.
AND polls now show that most UK citizens don’t want to leave the EU. Nor does the EU want Britain to leave the EU.
And PM May didn't want to leave the EU (until she was strapped with replacing David Cameron's weak leadership).
This is REALLY crazy. There must be a "FIRST" (WELL-INFORMED) referendum!
The solution is simple: Stay in the EU, then get British leadership that can solve the problems within the EU that motivated the 2016 vote.
3
As the first referendum showed, the Oligarchs behind Brexit have a well-oiled propaganda machine that will swamp a second referendum with “alternative facts” and rabid ranting about immigration etc.
The best solution is to rescind Article 20: go back to square one with the U.K. in the E.U. as before. No referendum, no delay, no confusion, no brawl.
2
@gary e. davis
All of this well put though last sentence should read: 'The solution is simple: Stay in the EU, then get British leadership that can solve the problems within the UK that motivated the 2016 vote.'
@John✔️❎✔️Brews
Do you mean Article 50?
"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
That's the actual language of 2016 Referendum upon which UK impales itself. Diligent representatives would have demanded: "Should the UK return to Camelot?"
People will believe in and vote for a fantasy past.
OPPORTUNISTS must be forced to acknowledge it's fantasy that they sell. "They can't tell us, what IT is!"
America was no better with our 2016 Validation of Repeal Obamacare.
Six days before his inauguration: “It’s very much formulated down to the final strokes. We haven’t put it in quite yet but we’re going to be doing it soon."
Trump gave Americans - STATUS - of replacement plan.
We don't need status! Same with FANTASY salesman Boris Johnson, he had no vetted plan. His failure became irrefutable fact as he resigned as Foreign Secretary. Still, Johnson CONTINUED with his fantasy: hard Brexit, UK thrives.
Like Trump, Johnson obfuscates his failures with complaints, blame, and populist mysogeny & racism:
"..this is a man who reportedly said he was "increasingly admiring" of President Donald Trump in the midst of his family separation border policy, likened Hillary Clinton to "a sadistic nurse in a mental hospital", and described Barack Obama's removal of a bust of Churchill as a "symbol of the part-Kenyan president's ancestral dislike of the British Empire".
-The Bustle, Unpacking Boris Johnson's Resignation.
Self-respecting voters know what to do next.
1
This is what happens when you allow a poorly informed public to decide extremely important matters that require substantial deliberation! Madison and Hamilton never gave much thought to the idea of a referendum.
3
The EU does NOT owe the UK a delay under the rules!
They should grant a delay for one reason only: on the promise that the people will get a direct chance to vote again! It’s the only way to end this disastrous insanity!
I'm sorry, but as much as I hate seeing the UK leave the EU, delaying it even further is just torture. If I were a business, I'd throw my hands up and say good riddance. Being told that there would be a hard Brexit on a specific date is a lot more clarity than kicking the can down the road with no one having any idea what the outcome will be like. The EU should say no delay unless they are willing to have a second referendum. Done deal - you don't get to hold everyone hostage just because you can't get your act together after two years. You made this mess and now you have to make tough decisions with tough consequences.
Many Americans, myself included, when confronted with the erudite English accent referred to as Oxford or BBC English, are seemingly programed like a nation of Pavlov's Dogs to attach a level of intelligence to the statement being made no matter what sort of lunacy is being proposed. Leaving the European Union or Brexit, for instance.
Whereas, even if the pronouncement isn't in dispute, "The World is Round", but it's being put forth by somebody who sounds like actor Michael Caine (Cockney} in "Alfie", invariably our first reaction is to frantically check to make sure our wallet is still in our pocket or purse.
Well, I propose until some semblance of sanity returns to Great Britain, all statements coming from the Prime Minister and/or members of Parliament be put through a voice manipulation program to come out sounding like those Monty Python guys with their pants rolled up and handkerchiefs on their heads who GRUNT in unison.
1
@Bill Baldwin, Jr.
Yeah - the words are in character already for the gumbys - just the accent needs a bit of tweaking to fit with the content.
(See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recurring_Monty_Python%27s_Flying_Circus_characters#Gumbys)
Theresa May has said repeatedly that having a second referendum would risk no brexit, in which case they would have failed in their responsibility to carry out the wishes of the electorate. But wait! If the majority would vote for no brexit, then that would be the wishes of the electorate. So her argument has been hoisted by its own petard.
@Fred Dorbsky
Unless she would like to see Brexit done and dusted - she is commonly regarded as a reluctant Brexiteer but she hardly expressed a preference during the referendum and has been conservative (small 'c') and reactionary in other policies. If you google some of the other Brexiteers you find the usual right-wing, small state, low tax, unequal stuff with some religious dogmatism mixed in. I suspect she agrees with the Brexiteers who want us out the door before people get wise and change their minds.
I hope the EU rejects the Extension. Britain does not deserve it.
best headline I seen to sum it up: Titanic votes that iceberg should move.
2
No need for another brainless dogma driven referendum nor a further delay for pinheads to further count angels.
Just rescind Article 50, return to square one, and let the power brokers behind this fiasco fume.
1
What most people seem to forget that all this drama of the last three years on Brexit has only been a prelude of what will follow.
The real fun will start when the inevitable new trade agreements will have to be negotiated.
4
It's become obvious that there was foreign interference in the 2016 US elections. I wonder if the same people interfered in the earlier Brexit referendum and perhaps is still working to disrupt the British government.
It's time for British parliament, along with other world governments to start working together.
6
@Bruce
I think they clearly DID interfere and nothing will happen about it as the Conservative government's first interest is class war against its own citizens and Brexit will help this.
If there is one thing that is absolutely clear it is that parliament is totally unprepared to deal with issues requiring cooperation and compromise. Even at this late stage it is a game of party politics and party politic will not lead to a suitable resolution .
4
Here's a simple change that Britain can make to the Brexit plan, that the EU leaders might be willing to support. The decision to leave, and get all that "freedom" the Brexiters invented, will still be in place. There will be adequate time for all the hard decisions Parliament has proved completely not up to right now.
Change Brexit date from March 29, 2019, to March 29, 20190.
4
The politicians priorities are Self followed their Party ... I'm not sure how many other things they consider before they give thought to what is best for the country.
The European Court of Justice has now ruled that a withdrawing member state may revoke its intention to withdraw from the EU unilaterally. But it must be done before or on March 29.
Aside from the U.K. government looking ridiculous (a result already achieved) that is the way to go. No delay. No referendum. A return to sanity.
8
Just wondering aloud how many EU nations are eagerly looking forward to the ongoing Brexit nightmare during their next elections.
The MAGA types like Steve Bannon thrive on this sort of confusion and controversy. Really hope the EU cannot secure the votes of all 27 members and, thus, kicks the racists who sponsored Brexit in the first place to the curb.
Britain voted for it. Let them have their cake and eat it, too.
1
The first "nail in the coffin" to worst idea in British history. Brexit indeed wrecks it. Time for a "No Confidence" vote, the P.M. goes to the Queen and says "Mum, time for a General"
2
Come on, NYTimes, what kind of headline is this:
'Parliament votes to delay Britain's E. U. departure' ?
The article following the headline rightly states that the EU has to agree with such a delay. But such an agreement cannot be taken for granted.
Your headline reminds me of the famous headline in an English newspaper a century or so ago:
'Fog in the Channel. Continent isolated.'
3
It is sad to see how Mrs. May and the Conservatives are more afraid of losing their majority than about doing the right thing for the country. What they should do is hold an election to see whom the UK's people want as their leaders, and then let those leaders make the decisions. If it's Mrs. May, then fine. If it is Labour, then get out of the way. If it is neither, then a coalition will have to struggle through. But this government is so afraid of the Leave voters tossing them out that they pander to what has clearly become a minority position: Leave the EU at all costs, respecting an ill-informed decision made on the basis of lies by an electorate over 2 years ago. It would be like trying to decide what investments to make based on a newspaper from 2016.
3
The British and American peoples each made boneheaded mistakes. Thank God and James Madison that we Americans can correct our mistake in 2020. The Brits are stuck with theirs forever.
2
@Jim James Madison did not have to contend with interference from DJT bro Vladimir Putin
5
Parliament doesn't want a deal and it doesn't want a no-deal. I see.
Can you imagine these fools taking over the process?
2
Brexit - the second biggest mistake by a Western democracy.
1
The referendum is a terrible idea because it bypasses representative democracy and creates two parallel, legitimate and competing sources of power. The side that loses the referendum should normally acknowledge defeat and shut up, but it may hold power in parliament and kill the result of the referendum... It's a crazy combination. You have to choose either direct democracy (referendum) or representative democracy. You can't have both at the same time or you will get chaos.
2
@JFB - I tend to agree. Referenda are a politician's way of avoiding a hard decision and shirking accountability.
@JFB
The referendum would have been fine if at minimum a decision to leave had required a supermajority for such a profound change.
The problem isn't so much that Parliament is majority remain. It's that the effects of brexit are so profound and long term (and not in a good way; there will be long term economic decline) AND the vote was so narrow.
Public opinion has shifted slightly toward remain, but the public is still split and now intensely polarized.
2
Truly shameful how Parliament has been acting in this whole charade. They don't want the only negotiated deal, they don't want the no-deal, they don't want a second referendum right now (fingers crossed Kyle-Wilson succeeds when brought to a vote), but they want an extension. It is sooo reassuring to see that Parliament can't agree on anything, except for the fact that they want more time to continue not agreeing.
From an outside perspective, some things are incredibly plain to see that apparently are difficult to see from inside Westminster, or are willfully being ignored:
1) May's deal is likely the only one that will ever be put to a vote so long as the extension is only 'limited.' The EU has all the leverage, despite the bloviating of some of the Brexiteers to the contrary, because the talk about pressuring the EU into changing the backstop is nonsensical because it would both violate their own rules and give ground where they have no reason to give any.
2) If a deal is passed eventually, it should be put to a second referendum, simply put. No one should be held beholden to their single opinion three years ago, and despite talk to the contrary, not allowing a second one is the undemocratic thing to do.
3) Whoever thought that a simple majority was enough to vote to leave something as expansive, tangled, and complex as the EU was crazy. I would argue it should've been just as difficult as it is to pass a constitutional amendment in the US.
The UK is rudderless.
6
It's not like the referendum is even legally binding.. it was simply a request for guidance. In the absence of parliament coming to an agreed position a return to the plebiscite is the only rational choice.
"Parliament votes to delay" is almost but not quite what happened. The UK parliament does not possess the unilateral power to delay Brexit unless it votes to revoke the Article 50 legislation that triggered a two-year countdown to leaving the EU. The UK parliament voted to request an extension. Now the EU votes to accept or reject the UK's request. That vote will probably happen in a week, and it requires unanimous assent from the EU side. Imagine what Putin and others might do to "influence" the vote of, say, Italy, or Poland, or Hungary? The UK could revoke Brexit unilaterally, but only before March 29.
4
It'll be some irony if Nigel Farage's "independence day" turned into the prelude for the "independence day" of Scotland and Northern Ireland.
4
This is what happens when you put national pride ahead of national interest. The British will be debating how to leave the EU for the next hundred years...
5
Perhaps it is time for what in America is called the "Hail Mary" pass. The government can't decide. The government won't allow the people to decide. So, how about if everyone just says; "We'll let the Queen decide."
Of course it sounds silly but hasn't the British government looked silly for nearly three years now?
2
Charles De Gaulle was right, the UK would cause trouble, he vetoed the membership twice, the third time Maggie knocked on the door there was no De Gaulle to stop it.
4
Give it up UK. Brexit is not going to happen. Time for the opportunists (Boris et al) to start explaining to the people that they lied. Globalization is here to stay. Technology and automation are here to stay. We all need to accept that and start dealing with reality. US included.
2
Who needs Fawlty Towers and Monty Python when we have the British Parliament on live TV day in and day out!?
1
I'll ask this again: Why does Mrs. May get repeated chances to win a vote for Brexit, but the British can't have a second referendum?
8
Stiff upper lip, don't lose face, and all that British nonsense. Brexit was the figment of David Cameron's imagination; it caught the citizens' fancy but not their full understanding. It was a close vote and should have been recalled. A new Referendum would most likely reveal a different position because there has been more discussion on the subject --especially the ramifications and consequences for Northern Ireland and Ireland. People can be so irresponsible!
3
I can't believe the Brits will put up with another 2 years of this whining and screaming and generally self-aggrandizing behavior by their legislative representatives (who I think actually make our Congress look good).
3
Hopefully the Cambridge Analytics influenced Brexit will never happen. And/or there will be another vote in which people aren't blinded by so much pro-Brexit propaganda.
3
I hope the EU tells them to shove off. The Brexit has been poorly organized from the start, and based on nothing but emotion - some sort of silly, retro, condescending (we love colonizing others, but will keep everyone out at home) nationalist pride and misplaced fear and is not pragmatic in the least. The trouble with a lot of votes is that voters are either ill-informed or misled by emotional propaganda to support the interests of a few.
5
Historians may disagree, but the inability of the British to resolve the Brexit situation is the most ridiculous decisive non-decision. We want to leave but since we can’t agree on terms we like, we won’t leave. But we still really really want to!
I am old enough to remember 2016, when the New York Times' comment section was filled with people shouting down warnings about the potential consequences of Brexit. The biggest and most obvious of which was that EU is not going to give some preferential deal where the UK enjoys all the benefits of membership without the obligations.
And here we are now, Parliament desperately fending off the specter of a no-deal Brexit.
I guess just waving a flag and shouting louder than everybody else doesn't actually mean you are right.
4
I use envy the British parliamentary process to get things done I'm governing, but now I realize that they are just as clueless as we are.
1
If Brexit were to go ahead then the ultimate effect would be to split the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland into her constituent parts. So much for UK sovereignty.
Edinburgh and Glasgow would regain their autonomy, along with Cardiff and Swansea, giving the finger to Westminster.
For a while Belfast and Ulster would go it alone, but eventually would have to throw in the towel, concede the battle is lost, submit to the authority of Dublin, and become part of a United Ireland.
The Cornish (not the Londoners and the other spivs with their holiday homes in St Ives) have always had closer ties with the Bretons of Brittany, their fellow Celts across the water, than with the upper-class Anglo-Norman day-traders, money-brokers, extortionists, conmen and sundry parasites of the City.
And for most of us, nostalgic for the childhoods of our lost past, it is not Britain but England we love and for which we pine: the chalky footpaths of the South Downs of West and East Sussex from which one spies the English Channel through the stands of elm, oak and beech; the narrow lanes of rural Hampshire between deep banks; and the grey, foaming sea beneath our feet as we tramp the stark cliff path of Dorset, no matter the direction, always heading into an English wind blowing.
3
@Colenso I agree with the part about Ireland will become one again. But, the battle and the Troubles have because it was not allowed to happen the first time. Just like everything with the Brits it was not allowed for political reasons. Notice after all these years Bloody Sunday a British solider has been charged. When the new Troubles started in the mid 60's it was over the Catholics wanting their civil rights and the Loyalists the same party that May has to sing their tune did not want the Catholics to be treated as equals. The Catholics trusted the Army until events like peaceful Bloody Sunday march showed them the Army was no different than the Protestant Royal Ulster Police. Jim Trautman
Its time Countries take responsibility for their own affairs.
This shows the incompetence and superficiality of so many politicians. Their "great" ideas fail miserably and they get lost in the field of reality.
Britain still think to live in the 18th century without realizing that the world has changed considerably.
According to the BBC: “The European Court of Justice ruled on 10 December 2018 that the UK could cancel the Article 50 Brexit process without the permission of the other 27 EU members, and remain a member of the EU on its existing terms, provided the decision followed a "democratic process", in other words, if Parliament voted for it.”
So there we have the sensible next step. Once reinstated, if the U.K. wants to resuscitate Brexit, they can invoke Article 50 anew. But given the mess this time around, a better informed and more candid view would prevail.
No need for a referendum another storm of propaganda from vested interests drowning deliberation in alternative facts.
Just dump Article 50, and the May government and let normalcy resume!!
2
I have to laugh at the open hostility and anger many pro-Brexit Brits show towards a second referendum. I get asked "are you sure?" Before I delete a piece of junk email; one might reasonably think such an important decision deserved confirmation. Particularly when the original vote was taken in the complete absence of important details. Intelligent humans should be reasonably expected to change their minds in the presence of new information. But of course, it seems quite obvious that a second vote can't be had because it would likely not return the result wanted by those in power.
2
What a ridiculous farce. It's like the US and UK are competing to be the laughingstock of the world. I wonder what Winston Churchill will have to say about this Anglo-Saxon hegemony of the world now.
I suspect EU will happily grant one extension, but at some point the EU will want some actual decision instead of being dragged along by this absurd sideshow indefinitely.
1
I hope the EU sends them packing.
3
A second referendum is in order.
3
I have sympathy for remainers but it's time for the EU to look to and consider its own future and to cut the UK loose. I hope an extension is not granted.
2
Since the biggest problem with May's deal is the border between Ireland, an independent country and member state of the EU, and Northern Ireland, part of the UK, wouldn't a simple solution be for the UK to simply cede Northern Ireland to Ireland? Problem solved! Ireland is united and the UK has a defacto hard border with the EU thanks to the North Channel and Great Britain gets to continue eviscerating thanks to the Brexiteers.
1
We have spilled too much blood over Northern Ireland to just cast it adrift, as you suggest.
And if we were to do so, there would undoubtedly be a civil war in Ireland.
No, we won’t be doing as you say.
A referendum under the terms of the Good Friday agreement is very likely if there is a hard Brexit. Northern Ireland (except for the DUP) wants to stay in the EU and does not want a hard border.
@JimJ
"wouldn't a simple solution be for the UK to simply cede Northern Ireland to Ireland?"
It doesn't work that way. The Good Friday Agreement (which is the reason a hard border must be avoided) provides for a referendum in NI and the Republic if both peoples express a wish to reunite.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/irish-reunification
If the brexit shambles continues, particularly if there is a "hard" or no-deal brexit, this may very well happen.
The photo of the pro Brexit protesters marching in London now looks like the Monster Raving Loony Party. Yes, that is an actual thing. The guy in the center looks like he has attached his plastic carrier bag to his belt buckle? Someone has forgotten to change out of his pajamas before heading into town and I swear that’s a goth Little Bo Peep on the right.
So let’s get this straight- 3 years. 3 years of insanity, including a devalued currency, a stagnant housing market, loss of international banks and prestigious headquarters. For nothing.
2
The Brits voted to buy a cat in a black bag.
Now the black bag has been opened and the cat is rabid.
Why would anyone want to buy a rabid cat ?
Hold a second referendum for goodness Sake. !!
5
32+6=1
respect the "will" of the N. Irish people. Theresa Mays political party needs to wake up and smell the coffee. You can't grow tea in England. REUNITE Ireland, throw your big wigs in the trash and listen to house music and techno like you were supposed to in the 80's and 90's. Your mindset and governance is a relic from a past that most of us are trying to move on from. Make Ireland a whole nation once again. No borders. Erin go bragh
2
Your math is wrong. 26 6 = 1
1
Again, why should anyone in the United States, a former colony, care one bit what or what doesn’t happen with this idiotic Brexit????? A true waste of space. No news here.
Fifth largest economy in the world. About to sustain a very hard knock.
Military and intelligence co-operation partnership very intimately intertwined.
Shall I go on?
American isolationism never ends well, and Americans with any sense of history know that.
1
Trump and Farage are in bed with the enemies of the West.
Everyone knows that Trump is owned by Putin. I wonder what Putin has on Farage?
2
Farage is a useful idiot for several hostile forces.
And he’s such an idiot, he doesn’t realise it.
2
@Kara Ben Nemsi and where is Boris Johnson?
1
Strategic Delay is one way out of this mess — probably the only one at this point; the alternative being a blind leap off a cliff into an abyss. After all, delay usually begets more delay. Not always, but one can only hope.
So-called “Brexit” is simply too complicated for even the most sophisticated economic policy-makers to parse, let alone map. Too many variables. Too many what-if’s. And too many dangers hiding in plain sight, invisible because of the unforeseeable. Recall how the Fall of France in May 1940 set other forces loose that, ultimately, pitched all Europe into a vast general war that would have obliterated Western civilization itself but for American intervention (itself politically inconceivable in 1940) and the Marshal Plan (also inconceivable). Hitler certainly didn’t see it. The Big Picture problem posed by Brexit is that it doesn’t stop with Brexit. Inevitably, Brexit will unleash pent-up forces across Europe that could push it in profoundly self-destructive directions.
Is it unfair to state that the only probable winners from a chaotic Brexit — the only people who actually benefit — will be:
- a few billionaires;
- power-mad right-wing reactionary capitalists like Murdoch who want to tear everything down, rip the world that they don't already own apart;
- some cynical ambitious UK politicians;
- anarchists like Bannon and Farage;
- and, of course, Putin’s criminal regime, intent on subjugating Western Europe by destroying its political cohesion?
Anyone hear from Boris Johnson lately? Under what rock is he hiding?
3
Quite aside from all the chaos in Parliament, one has to admire the UK's legislative process. Repeatedly in recent days, critically important votes on variations of the Brexit issues at hand have been conducted -- quickly and decisively. Granted, the issues remain unsettled, but over here in Wonderful America, the Senate would still be deep in debate over whether to impose cloture so that the FIRST of these many votes could be taken.
2
The vote on a second referendum did not test the support it might have. Labour has often pledged to support it but today did not want it to distract from the vote on an extension, so they voted no today.
It remains to be seen however whether this strategy has not actually scuppered its chances: will there even be another vote brought on this question?
2
May scored an impressive come-back today. No-Deal Brexit remains in force for March 29 unless Parliament backs her to-be-revised plan.
Having expressed their merely meaningful disapproval of No Deal, a 2d Referendum, and an Extension, Parliament is still counting the days until they exit the EU via an approved May Plan, or March 29, whichever comes first.
With all respect for insular Home rule, it seems free-flow immigration is the problem facing the British and every other developed Country. Time to change the rules and be selective.
3
Special Counsel Robert Mueller expressed an interest in Nigel Farage, a key figure in the Brexit movement.
It's also interesting that Farage helped Donald Trump in 2016.
And he's been seen leaving the Ecuadorian Embassy during the 2016 campaign.
Farage seems to have been working with the Kremlin to influence the Brexit vote. That's reason enough to have another vote- one that's free of Russian influence.
7
Here in Canada we have the "Clarity Act" of 2000 which came about after Quebec's 1995 referendum on secession. The wording of the referendum was so ambiguous that it was, fairly, argued that people weren't sure exactly what they were voting for (or against):
["Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?']
Now, any future referendum must be clear, concise, and unambiguous.
It's too bad the U.K. didn't heed our experience in Canada. If they had, any move toward Brexit relying on the voice of the people should have been framed as two votes: one giving the government authority to negotiate an exit from the E.U. and a second vote to approve (or not) the negotiated terms.
What a mess they've made!
6
A People's Vote or Second Referendum is still very much a possibility. That it did not pass today was merely strategic: pro Referendum MPS want it put to a vote LATER not today and made that very clear! A majority in the polls back a new People's Vote.
3
sadly that's wishful thinking imho. Corbyn wants out of the EU and would appear to be happy to let an accident happen .
Leaving is hard to do. How about proposing/ demanding a revision of the EU’s governing regulations. Most E.U. members seem inclined to realignment. Perhaps a simple form of migration permits is necessary to calm fears along with greater centralization of the financial sector.
@Ted. BTW- Boris Johnson and his ilk won’t be any more successful than PM May
@Ted " Greater centralization of the financial sector" ?
What does it mean ?
If I were in Britain, I would like to see them do another election over Brexit. I think a lot of people over there regret that the thing was voted in to start with. It seemed to take many by surprise. My warmest and very best wishes go out to our British friends as they work to settle this divisive matter in the best manner for all concerned.
5
Why do they not give up and admit they are inextricably part of Europe and have been since 1973? There was no viable plan proposed for the Brexit referendum and after two years of wrangling they are not a step closer. Any further attempts is just wrenching at the lives of businesses and people that are part of Europe.
7
Pride, misplaced flag waving and frankly racist rhetoric got us to this sorry state and will likely see us slide into obscurity.
Hopefully Scotland does the sensible thing and quits the UK for the EU.
1
This is what happens when you support a plan that racists like Nigel Farage support. Guess the UK and the US are currently paying penance for their racial sins. Well-deserved.
10
How about a referendum on whether to have a second referendum? And if so, hold it. How could that possibly be non-democratic?
4
Love it what is the purpose of pushing the deadline back. It is just moving it down the road as in the UK there seems to be no real idea of the consequences of the first vote. Now keep demanding that you want the EU to dance to your tune, basically you started the divorce so live with it now. They still want to get the benefits and be a member of the club. To me the media needs to focus more on what these socalled "populist movements" are they are front groups for a certain elite that wants to get their own way. In the UK Boris Johnson and Farrage and their members of the Tory backbench could care less about the socalled Little Person except to bait them on and get them to do what they want. Most of the wealthy Leave Group which was backed by illegal money and Russians have moved their money and assets to Malta or other EU countries. There was never all that money coming back to spend on the National Health Service a lot of baloney. Cameron gave in and has ridden into the sunset and lives very well. In the US chaos and in Ontario where I live a Premier who flaunts the law and spends as a ten year old would. No real ideas, just personal attacks. Who do I blame people that fall over and over again for the con man. Here in Ontario we saw the Premier and how he acted when he was on Toronto city council. Populists to me are people who whine, to lazy to get reeducated for the new economy and vile about anyone they don't like. Jim Trautman
6
yup. In any change first ask 'who profits'. It certainly won't be the man/ woman in the street.
1
Now that they've hit the snooze button, what do they propose to do? The EU has already said there's nothing else to negotiate.
8
Possibly a second referendum.
Possibly a general election which may give the Conservative Party a working majority large enough so Mrs May can ignore the right-wing nutters in her own party and get her EU withdrawal deal approved by the House of Commons without the wreckers and cynical political opportunists of the Marxist opposition Labour Party.
And if we are leaving without a deal, more time to prepare for it.
It seems to be those are three good reasons.
1
Impossible situation - most of the elected officials would never find any deal negotiated with the EU to be acceptable. EU has nothing to lose by extending the dates, right? Meanwhile the UK can pretend that it's withdrawing indefinitely. Worst of both worlds - they have to keep paying, they can't have their own rules, and no one wants to assume they'll stay in, so companies reluctant to do business.
3
If this wasn't so tragic it'd be amusing, it's quite the circus. Putin must be getting nervous that Brexit may fail, after all the effort he's put into it.
5
Cannot help but feel a little pleased that the Irish situation has caused such a conundrum to UK plans. I'm thinking my ancestors are doing a little jig in the great beyond.
15
Don't be too happy. If the UK crashes out of the EU a lot of collateral damage will be done to the Irish economy. Many Irish exports go through the UK via road to get to Europe
Chaos at the Channel ports will not exempt Irish freight. Then there is the border issue and the DUP...
No trade deal with the U.S. is going to replicate the current integrated EU/UK economy, such as same day/overnight deliveries of produce and just-in-time industrial deliveries. The only thing that makes economic sense aside from just canceling Brexit is a quasi-Norwegian/Swiss model. But that wouldn't satisfy the delusional factions who think the days of Empire and colonial glory can be reinstated by fiat.
7
Northern Ireland is now a pawn in a chess game. Leave or No Leave is now in a serious game without recourse. It should have not have taken this long far for a decision. The request to delay won’t change minds but perhaps hearts. I’m from the USA but the tearing apart of a a good friend is not something without at least comment. I hope and pray for the best.
The big banks and oil won? It doesn't matter whether you are with the EU or the US, banks rule, don't they? and oil and gas too? At least it looks to me like they are trying to.
1
Theresa May should resign. She's done her best, but her party does not support a soft Brexit. It's time one of the hard Brexit extremists be put in charge of the negotiations. The EU and the UK should delay Brexit by one year. They can negotiate the terms, the customs structures put in place, tariffs decided, the Irish land border reestablished in some form, EU and UK citizens not living in their home countries learn if they can stay where they are, and under what restrictions. AND THEN THERE SHOULD BE ANOTHER VOTE! Not based on a fantasy, but on the reality of the divorce settlement.
4
@TC
You contradict yourself. If you want to put a hard Brexit supporter in TM's place, you need no delay. Hard Brexit will happen then in 2 weeks.
It is an illusion that a Brexiteer would support a second referendum. That's like Kim Jong-un or Putin embracing free elections.
Mrs May put several of the leading Brexiteers in the Cabinet, to give them responsibility for negotiating the withdrawal from the EU. And the biggest of them have all quit, saying it was all going wrong.
Cowards.
Referenda are a very, very bad way of deciding anything remotely complex.
2
@Kara Ben Nemsi There's a difference between a hard Brexit and a crash out. If the UK leaves in two weeks, what happens to the millions of ex-pats, among the many concerns I mentioned. I agree, no Brexiteer will support another referendum, but what will Parliament and the EU approve?
Americans should not forget in the picture that all , all of them ( ! ) biggest US corporations are fiscally registered, not in the USA , but in Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, in the EU !
That's : Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Yahoo, Google, Starbucks, Netflix, etc...
All registered in the EU , in Ireland, because they can benefit from tax loop holes ( Ireland when joining the EU needed the labor tax dumping effect ) and they pay zero taxes while invading the European market and causing a tax fraud of trillions of dollars each yera . The equivalent to the EU budget deficit annually.
The cash benefice is redirect to the US via London banking exchange and its connexions with the US offshore banks in the Caribbean.
Ireland acts as a US Trojan horse into Europe. What is going to happen after Brexit ?The UK is trying to escape the control of EU at the moment when the EU is starting to fight the US gigantic tax fraud in Europe. Will Ireland be able to continue the dumping ?
Or will Ireland be even more an ally to the USA by playing with London after Brexit , once the UK will have gone away from the EU regulations ? That they don't respect anyway now.
6
I say—
Is this not a bit of a muddle that PM May has gotten herself into?
Has she not expended most of her energy and time in office running here and there on Brexit, in utter exasperation, when the solution is staring her in the face—“re-do” the referendum.
4
Obviously, do a new referendum and reverse the Brexit nonsense.
6
Sadly much damage has already been done to the UK economy. Even if there is a second vote to stay in it will take decades to undo this harm.
1
Brexit is the ultimate own goal... and I thought US politics were dysfunctional and unrepresentative of popular will.
9
A new referendum is useless, as it will be much to close to end the debate. That would turn brexit into a never ending story nobody can stomach, certainly not the EU.
That leaves three options:
1. revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit
2. take May's deal
3. hard brexit.
As options 1 and 2 need the House of Commons coming to an agreement, hard brexit seems most likely.
2
At least there are sensible folks in the UK Parliament who are not jumping into a deal that is bad for UK (that being leaving EU). Let's hope that the whole Brexit venture will be reverted.
2
This plays out: Britain avoids making any decision because the status quo is tolerable, even with all of the commensurate anxiety. The E.U. has the advantage, does not budge on Brexit terms and squeezes Britain on a host of other issues. What are the likely issues? When does it reach a breaking point?
A BBC report says that Trump commented on how badly Brexit was going and how Ms. May did not take his advice. That advice - sue the E.U.
The greatest deal maker/negotiator comes through again! What a joke he is.
21
Forget making the delays, get on with it.
2
It seems like the group of uninformed people who pushed for Britain to leave there EU made a huge mistake. Now, most British want to remain in the EU as they should for many logical reasons.
The same mentality of; isolationism, fear of immigrants, greed, is what gave the US trump. Trump of course embraced Brexit as it fit in with his nationalistic policies...Hopefully now people are coming to their senses in both countries and have realized these are dead-end policies bought to US by dead-end leaders.
3
All this talk about the "will of the people", but the UK needs to be honest with itself. Its not the will of the people, its the ignorance of the people. They did not know what they were even voting for with this EU referendum, and why should they?!
A good quote I read: "Inviting a largely uninformed public to make a judgement on something as unfathomably complex as our membership of the EU was akin to asking a six-year-old to perform delicate brain surgery - with a crayon."
Just take this stat into account. In a survey of British voters in 2015, 59% weren't able to name the current Prime Minister at the time. And David Cameron (the right answer) had been in power for 5 years by then! 59%!? Most people don't understand it because frankly they don't care.
In a parliamentary democracy politicians are elected to make important decisions on the electorate's behalf. That's how the system is meant to work. And the people should avoid referendums at all costs as they reduce perplexingly multifaceted matters to a binary choice.
"It is frankly a dangerous capitulation of responsibility by the executive to an electorate less equipped to make judgements than they."
What a total mess. A second referendum is a bad idea. Best to leave, feel the pain, let nature take its course (i.e. younger voters swell, older voters die off) and as soon as possible kick off a 'rejoin the EU' campaign. Won't take long before the UK is voting to come straight back in.
8
IF you watch or read British news, they are more concerned about May's career than the future of their own nation.
Pandering to the lowest common denominator; watching a leader be discredited and ousted. News in the US follows the same trajectory rarely concerned with facts.
3
Do May and Parliament fail to realize that pushing the date back isn’t going to solve their problem? Brussels has made it perfectly clear it isn’t going to budge any further. Delaying the date is precisely what the EU wants so that it increases the likelihood of another vote by the British populace. If that happens Parliament can rest assured that Farge and the pro-Brexit crowd will accuse them of trying to thwart the will of the people. They are better off going for a hard Brexit at this point. What is the EU going to do? Come after them? May is no Lady Thatcher by any means.
2
A hard no deal Brexit puts the UK into recession and the Eurozone and then the United States, this is crazy, hold a second referendum, Remain and ge on with life, Farage and Boris should be put up in the Tower of London so that tourists can throw peanuts at them.
4
The Brexiters are the "Make Britain Great Again" crowd who think they can go back to the days of the British Empire. There's an old British joke that sums up them and the people they conned. It went something like this:
"Readers of the Daily Telegraph wish the British Empire still existed, readers of the Daily Mail think it still does and readers of the Sun (which is famous for having pictures of topless women on page 3) don't care, as long as the Prime Minister has big (fill in the blank)"
4
British conservatives: this Brexit disaster is all on you. So what are you going to do to save Britain from the coming economic disaster? The only thing you can do is agree to the terms of the EU (who has already given you repeated time extensions).Do any of you have the integrity to admit you all mislead the country? Stiff upper lip and all.
3
I see the pro-Brexit marchers have been careful not to wear their "Trump 2020" shirts which were photographed a few days ago. Putin must be working hard to hide his glee.
4
Britain is a monarchy. It’s time for the Royal to put an end to this Brexit nonsense. Your Highness, for the good of your subjects assert your queenly authority and shut down Brexit.
5
Where to begin?
Since our Glorious Revolution in 1688, we have a constitutional monarchy. That means the Queen doesn’t have any political power. She can advise and warn, but she cannot direct.
When in 1649 King Charles I defied Parliament and fought a very bloody civil war against Parliament, he was (in 1660) tried in Westminster Hall, convicted and had his head cut off.
Her Majesty (not Highness) isn’t going to try to reverse the result of our civil war which took place two centuries before yours. We are quite happy with the outcome we arrived at then.
Oh, please. Just get out already !
You’ve shown your true colors of selfishness, arrogance and greed. Your mass-murdering, racist empire is not coming back.
Your illusions of greatness and exceptionalism need to be put down, firmly.
We need a sense of solidarity and common purpose moving forward, not one of selfishness and entitlement, in the EU and worldwide.
The UK is a hindrance rather than an asset for Europe.
No extensions, hard Brexit NOW.
8
I am a Canadian with a British passport. I lived in England when Britain joined the then EEC. It was a contentious battle then and remains so; Farage and the Russians having played their dastardly part. But Britain is an island unto itself and "splendid isolation" remains a staple nutrient in the British preconscious. Though much has changed and improved since the initial EEC vote the psyche of that green and pleasant land holds onto a past that began to die 2 centuries ago. Problem is this produces a myopia extending even to its own subjects. In particular that 1 1/2 million or so Brits who are living and working quite happily thank you very much in EU countries. My daughter is one of these EU workers. No one knows exactly what will befall them when all is done. For all of some Brits concerns about refugee invasions coming primarily from Africa I wonder how they will approach a vaster horde of their own people if in the uncertainty EU Brits decide to come home en masse?
6
Either hold a second referendum or recognize the first vote was not binding on Parliament and that Parliament is unable to reach agreement on how to proceed. Surely there are other questions the British legislature needs to address than this dance to doom.
4
@Bill Brauch I would love to know how much all of this -- from the vote in 2016 until now -- has cost British taxpayers -- like how much per day it is taking away from the National Health System. The Brexit proponents liked to describe Brexit in terms of how much money it would bring the NHS (which turned out to be false). So how much has the government wasted in the past 3 years on special staffing for this, transportation, studies, etc.?
1
Britain might be set to delay the deadline, but not a single one of the 27 EU countries wants to entertain the idea, and it would require a unanimous vote of all 27 to postpone the March 29th deadline.
Over and over, EU leaders are demanding "credible justification" for any delay request and that Britain, itself, must propose a "convincing" solution as a way forward.
1
I think it will be a lesson on the value of government vs mob rule. Unsympathetic to the pending economic catastrophy? Not at all, I’m looking forward to the prospect of a night’s stay in downtown London for about $100 USD.
6
It all boils down to a hard border in Ireland. There is a hard border on each and every side of the EU and Customs Union. In each and every scenario the UK proposes, it is a mathematical certainty that Ireland will get a hard border.
@Epicurus I think it's time for Ireland to unite and exist (like the current Republic) independent of the UK. And I believe there is aleady talk among the Irish in that regard. I also think Scotland needs another vote on independence.
Britain should leave the E.U. They had a referendum. It's done. Over. I am seeing a lot of whining on the comments here. Sore losers.
Parliament should vote to accept the deal that May negotiated. Done.
7
@Truth Sayer You're not allowed to change your mind, no matter how circumstances change, or what you later discover about the realities of what you voted for. That's democracy!
2
If Brexiteers believe there was a clear mandate to leave the EU, why are they so afraid to hold a second referendum?
4
@Ex-Pat Pam Why should the original vote be made irrelevant?
2
@FreedomisPriceless, Because it was poorly worded. It did not provide enough detail about the process or outcomes. I do not believe it would ever have been allowed on a ballot in the US.
This brexit thing is such an insane move. Britain IS part of the EU. To isolate itself is political suicide. May should give up and let the crazies who started this nonsense be responsible for their actions. EU needs to stay firm and stand.
4
The Brexit movement is part of the mindless, xenophobic, nationalistic disease which has spread widely in the Trump era. Its purpose is destabilization of western democracies and it is working. Just as a fever is to the flu so chaos is symptomatic of these efforts. With chaos nothing of value is accomplished and there is much fractious heat and noise surrounding each issue. Immigration is the issue of choice in the United States and although pointless activity and divisive debate abound, nothing ever gets resolved.
That at is the point. The raison d'etre of the movement is tearing down existing institutions and not replacing them. (NATO, Obamacare, Iran Treaty, EU and on and on.)
This appears to me to serve only the interests of Russia.
11
I’d been wondering what could possibly happen to make this worse and dumber, and then I saw that Trump was promising to “quickly,” sign a trade deal splitting Britain off from Europe.
Oh, I thought. I should have known, but thanks for the info.
By the way, this sort of thing, and the way we’re standing around, yelling at our own allies, and drooling while China and Russia are on the rise?
It leads to wars. Congratulations.
4
I don't understand why they can't call for another public referendum. The British people were lied to the first time (there is no new money for the NHS, it turns out), and the vote was extremely close. (Why did the government allow such an important decision to be made by a sliver of the electorate?)
If they called for another referendum, my guess is the vote would be to Remain and by a large margin. Then this nightmare would be over.
9
Let's face it, Brexit is a bad deal no matter how you spin it. In a competitive world we need each other and Britain needs the EU. I say have another referendum and put things back to where they were.
6
The British parliament is a Victorian curiosity, perhaps of interest to scholars of nineteenth century politics but completely inappropriate for the modern era. With its anachronistic procedures and arcane language not even the English can understand how it works. The adversarial and antagonistic debating chamber is sometimes entertaining on YouTube but is out of place among European countries with more civilized and co-operative systems. We can also see that the other three countries of the United Kingdom play a subordinate role to England rather like colonies with token parliaments. What the English say goes. Imagine what would have happened if England had voted to stay in the EU while Scotland and Northern Ireland had decided to leave it.
7
Get a clue, UK lawmakers. There is NO good reason for a vote to leave the EU. The only reason would be to fragment the alliance European countries have formed since WW2.
The "leavers" are the 0.01% global financial elite who can more easily steal resources and hard-earned taxpayer dollars from smaller government. They are insatiably greedy, morally/ethically bankrupt and war mongers. They would destroy anything to try to further enrich themselves.
Hold a new vote. My guess is that the great majority of U.K. citizens now realize how relatively peaceful their lives have been since the destruction of lives during and after WWII.
NO WW3. Not now. Not ever.
140
@Howard Loewen: The UK has subjects not citizens. And a large minority voted Remain. In Northern Ireland and Scotland, actual majorities voted Remain.
22
I have no idea how to respond to that, Mr. Loewen. It is wrong on so many levels.
25
@Howard Loewen Religious freedom????? What is that?
6
If we can learn anything from the Brexit debacle, please let it be a greater awareness of how governance by direct referendum must be done with great caution, and is often poorly conceived. Referenda can be positive, when they achieve a popular result on which a government has refused to act, but they can also be abused. Though democratic, referenda may be used by a majority to infringe upon the rights of a minority, or may allow a passionate and mobilized minority to supplant the will of the majority. And if the result of a referendum proves later to be unpopular, there is no obvious remedy. When a government takes unpopular actions, the voting public can replace the government, but what is the recourse when a referendum result turns sour? One can argue that a second referendum is undemocratic, but one can also argue that would be undemocratic not to allow a now better-informed public to vote again. Poor question design can also complicate matters. The 2016 Brexit referendum, for example, pitted an abstract choice against a concrete one; people could imagine leaving the EU to be as wonderful or as terrible as they wanted to because no terms were outlined. The current stalemate was destined to occur if Leave prevailed. Direct referenda: Nice in theory, often very bad in practice.
7
@NickD Well informed and thoughtful.
2
When the referendum was held, the people had no idea what they were voting on. Lesson to be learned is that Conservatives are quick to take things apart, but have no idea what to do with the pieces. Look at American politics and you see total chaos.
11
The EU should only allow additional time for Britain to withdraw if the Brits agree to a second referendum that clearly states the terms of the divorce and does not require any further approval by Parliament. Then YES would be a truly informed decision to leave, rather than a pie in the sky promise of a better future. Anything else is just going to prolong the torture.
106
@Laurence Hauben
The quickest way out of this "torture" as you put it, is for the EU to not allow additional time. That way the UK will be out of the EU in 15 days.
Another second referendum plus all the renegotiations to start over again will prolong the torture by several years. And we may still end up same as today. That is why they will give an extension because we will need to pay billions more to remain
Besides what do you think the repercussions would be in the USA if your government ignored your democratic referendum votes and sent you back to vote over again until they get the results they want? Which is the EU way. Would you vote for a foreign power to tell you what to do and make your laws? The EU is not democratic, it's leaders are appointed and often by themselves and cannot be removed by the people. Perhaps you would like to join the happy disintegrating EU club?
I love the Brits. A great sense of humor, the ability to make the best of a situation, overstatement of a problem and understatement of a catastrophe. Always ready for a party or a sarcastic joke. They have gone off the rails with this Brexit agreement. The EU is not going to wait forever for a decision and they are heading perilously close to a hard exit. That would be catastrophic for the UK and the free world economy as well. Somebody needs to remind the MP's that they aren't the biggest guy on the block anymore and the damage they are doing to their institution will leave deep scars.
94
cue the Benny Hill theme
6
Reminds me of Let’s Make a Deal: you get to blindly pick from three options, hoping you pick the grand prize, only to find out that you selected the booby prize. If voters knew the real consequences, that is, if the curtains were actually up and the prizes on display, people would have been better informed and perhaps would have voted with their actual best interests in mind.
44
@SPH Theresa May and the Brexiteers are relaly trying to sell that Zonk though
Given the fact that May does not want to have a second referendum because supposedly it would undermine people's faith in the democratic system, it is curious that she has put her proposal up for a vote twice and flirts with doing the same a third time. Moreover, there is a Parliament rule that says that a defeated amendment cannot be re-introduced in the same session. Lawyer's are saying that while the rule is there, it would be undemocratic if the will of Parliament were frustrated. Funny how regulations are always interpreted according what people want. Sounds just like our Supreme Court.
3
What a sad ending to what was once the world's greatest empire...
Rather than going down not in a blaze of glorious battle defending its noblest values, it is drawn to its knees by the inability to recognize the obvious: That there is an irreconcilable contradiction between finding bureaucratic means to fulfill ludicrously fanciful ends.
7
The Brits need another vote.
The FLAWED Brexit referendum did NOT ask the voters if the United Kingdom should leave the European Union regardless of how painful the terms of separation will be.
7
Brexit was stupid from the get-go, but it's symptomatic of a much greater problem: another rise of far-right nationalism. Trump, Duterte, Bolsonaro, Orban, Le Pen and so on are creating another global crisis.
10
The SNP should run a candidate in every ward next election so that people people at least have a choice to vote for somebody, anybody, who has knows what they want. Think about that, the best party in the UK is the Scottish Nationalist Party. THAT is how bad it is.
6
How about that, a deeply emotional issue delayed...by a rational decision to take time and think things over. This averted the immediate pain...that occurs when one shoots one's own foot.
4
What is most amazing to me is how little the various factions, demanding one thing or another, seem to grasp the lack of leverage they have with the EU. For almost 2 years now they have, with absolutely no leverage, issued demands for concessions from the EU that the EU has absolutely no advantage nor imperative to grant. This is like a condemned man demanding the conditions of his execution.
Now they blithely say that they will vote on whether or not to grant themselves an extension, with the same apparent obtuseness as to whether the EU will grant it. It seems that no matter what the EU says it will not do and will not grant, Parliament keeps sending Theresa May back to ask for more.
The kicker to all this is that the promise of Brexit was a fraud in the first place, a pure study in the disconnect between direct and representative democracy. Whereas the popular, direct vote was for Leave, the MP majority was for Stay. Now that everything has come unglued over how to leave, it's all been turned on its head: Polls show a 2nd referendum would vote for Stay, while the government twists itself into knots trying to honor the "will of the people" by finding a way to Leave.
Somewhere, Monthy Python's Flying Circus is taking notes, because this is British nonsensical comedy at its best.
19
If Brexit is halted, the hardline Leavers and their American backers, led by Trump will suffer a defeat. While Brexiteers want to regain control of their country, they hope to forge closer ties to Trump and conclude favourable trade deals with the US. American ultra right-wingers have pushed them toward a hard Brexit – leaving without a deal, because they sees it as an essential step to unravel the EU. Like Trump, they don’t see Europe as an ally.
As the US under Trump is turning inward, it is losing some of its clout in the global great power competition. Right-wingers fear that the EU may one day build itself up as a counterweight to Trump’s America, would it get its act together. They see Germany as their “worse enemy” and hope that right-wing populist regimes in eastern Europe would take over Brussels and change the course of action - total submission to Washington.
Steve Bannon is actively backing populist parties, seeking to help them make inroads into the European Parliament in the May elections.
6
@J. von Hettlingen
Most erudite Explanation of reality re: Brexit so far!
1
@J. von Hettlingen: "While Brexiteers want to regain control of their country..." Which country? England, Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland?
1
Interesting that the “United” states and the “United” Kingdom are so efficiently divided by innuendo and fear of “Others”. Who gains is the question, Comrade?
9
It is clear from Brexit and Trump that Russia has won WW III without a single shot being fired.
7
Great article as usual, NYT.
One point that perhaps deserves more attention is the so-called "Malthouse Compromise" that was also voted on yesterday. It failed in the House but basically split the Tory vote in half with several Cabinet ministers voting for it. It's basically the game plan for a "managed no-deal", and proposes a 2 year period during which everybody pretends that nothing has changed -- except of course that there will be no courts in place
to enforce the non-laws. Still, it represents the most articulated version of Brexit available, is supported by a very substantial minority and deserves to be fully exposed to light and debunked rather than simply dismissed. All the more so that should the current default of no-deal come to pass two weeks from now, then its premises will be put to the test of reality.
Comic note: my spellchecker came up with "Madhouse Compromise" when I first tried Malthouse, and it is basically right. Definitely unicorn hunting grounds.
4
We absolutely must have a second referendum. Leaving aside the blatant lies perpetrated by the leave campaigns such as the Brexit dividend to spend on the NHS and how it was all going to be so easy, plus the outright rascism of some of their campaign, there is surely a deeper democratic principle. We now know the outlines of a possible deal. This was never on the table in 2016. It should be put to the people, along with the option of an extreme Brexit and to Remain. I fail to see why the leavers get so upset about this.
116
@Michael
I agree! The leavers know they'd lose if a second referendum was taken.
9
Because they know they will lose on a second referendum.
4
@Michael, I'll be glad to help, but only if someone can find a way to exile Farage to St Helena.
The EU should refuse an extension, forcing a "no deal" exit, and watch as the English economy takes a nose dive. After all, that is precisely what they voted for - isolationism.
People need to understand that their votes have repercussions. Just as the minority of voters in this country need to understand that... oh, wait. That's right. The incredible mess we're in right now is not because the majority voted for it. It's because the majority allowed a broken election system to persist, even after the "reign of error" that came about the last time a "loser" won in 2000.
But I digress.
People need to understand that "populism" is no better than "botulism". That it is a way of dealing with problems that have been created out of thin air, like the "southern boarder crises". And that, like "brexit", the solution to these created problems are a thousand times worse then their imaginary dangers.
Hitler was a populist. And so were many of the worst dictators the would has ever produced.
"Populism" is the refuge of the moral degenerates. Of racists, persecutors, religious zealots, and mass-murderers. The "law and order" people who, like Trump, invariably put themselves personally and politically above the law.
Populism is essentially a political mechanism whereby a group of self-serving individuals "create" social problems, and then go about systematically destroying society in the pursuit of an ever imaginary solution.
It's what happens when the worst people are given power.
6
Why should France, Germany and Italy save the Brits from their lemming like death march to their Brexit folly deadline destiny?
No exit Brexit plan takes a supremely high level of sustained stupidity.
3
I have been following the Brexit process which has become a back and forth collection of misunderstandings. Britain is showing that if their political model has ever been an example for good political decision making it is now becoming the laughing stock of their EU partners and other countries. There is no way they can sort the situation without a few political crises and strong changes in both the government and the parliament. The source of the whole mess is trying to push a decision made by a very small people majority which in fact has a strong support of only a not so significant minority of the political savvies.
2
I don't have a dog in this this fight, but it would serve May and her band of incompetent Tories right if the EU kicked Britain out at month end and make them reapply when they have a new government in power.
3
Usually, when one is asked to endorse a deal, the details and consequences are known in advance and agreed to.
Then, the public, is asked to confirm or reject a deal that is in place.
In this case, the public was ill informed and indeed misled about the details and consequences of leaving the EU. They were asked to vote on an idea - the consequences of which were, as is now readily apparent, either unknown or deliberately misrepresented.
It is angering that proposals for a second referendum - based on the emerging realities - is being opposed on the basis that it would be "undemocratic". Denying the people a vote, now that they are better informed, is "undemocratic". Orwell anyone?
9
If I read the article correctly, then Mrs May is against parliament taking control of the question of leaving or not leaving the EU or, if leaving, just what kind of leaving will it be. Will it be something like Mrs May has negotiated or something like Norway now has or other, including a decision to stay or a decision to submit a second referendum. I do not understand her position. It seems to me obvious that parliament should step in and do the job it is paid to do and make decisions in the best interests of their constituents. She has tried to come up with a plan to leave and it has been rejected more than once. Why does she not let go gracefully? Probably I do not understand parliamentary democracies.
1
It is an absolute disgrace that essentially the same deal is being put on the table again, and again, and maybe even for a third time despite MPs rejecting it by historic majorities. Meanwhile, the British people are told their "will must be respected," as a reason for not having a second referendum, despite the fact that the margin of victory for Leave was narrow, and based on what we "Remainers" suspected before - but now know - was a campaign of misinformation partly funded by Russians.
142
@Jacinta If the UK really wants to leave the EU AND maintain Northern Ireland's open border with the rest of Ireland as agreed under the Good Friday agreement, Mrs. May's compromise IS the ONLY option. They MUST stay in the customs union. (how can you not share trade terms if you have an open border? How can you enforce YOUR trade rules in that scenario?).
That's why it keeps coming back. By feeding the notion that this circle can be made a square is delusional. The EU should give the UK a few more months, but no more to decide.
9
@OneView I agree there is no better deal, hence it keeps coming back for a vote. My main point, however, is that if MPs can keep revoting despite not much having changed since the last time they voted - the British people should also be given an opportunity to vote again.
9
@Jacinta Just like the Russians interfered in the US elections, they juiced up the Brexit non-sense to get people to believe it was a good thing. It was not and will not be a good thing! Interesting, trump loved Brexit, loves the Russians and of course pushes for the things that are in Russia's best interest....Both the US and Britain need to get clear about what is really going on in their countries, and the manipulation by Russia interfering in many countries.
16
It seems that the UK should reconsider leaving the EU. The damage they will do to their economy is so great as to be truly insane. I just don’t understand why a second vote cannot occur.
And if I were the EU, I would encourage and support a second referendum. They, too, will suffer substantial economic disruption and damage.
The Shengen Area rules may need to become more sophisticated. Perhaps ameliorated by economic injections into weaker economies to encourage workers to remain. Perhaps some loose limits on how many migrants a country must accept each year.
Without some flexibility in immigration, the First World economies will suffer “Japanization” , with too few of working age to meet the requirements of a society with so many elderly.
All these problems have become exacerbated by an excess of nationalism. The MAGA attitude is hardly unique to the US.
66
@Gene S
Um, you do know that Japanization is not happening don't you? Robots will do the work that you want immigrants to do, and they will do it first in Japan because they are leading that revolution at the moment. What will all the unskilled do when its robots doing all the manual jobs? We are moving toward Universal Basic Income at some point. How much easier will it be for Japan to provide that for all their citizens than it will be for us, after having let in the entire third world?
3
@Gene S
We call it "project fear" in the UK, obviously it is very strong as even you in the US believe in this "insane damage".
I wonder how 90% of the world manage to survive without joining the EU. Does the US or Australia suffer from this "insane damage"? or do we British people have a disability or something?
Look at the upside to this whole story. The Brits could possibly create a two-year reality TV show out of the mess. Maybe Jersey Shore should be a model. Put all the major players and advocates for all the various positions in a large beach house at a shore town with lots of pubs, arcades, and amusement park rides. Follow the daily dramas of all the characters as they try to work through their issues and find their real identities. Even if they never find a living arrangement that is acceptable to the majority, at least it provides enough light entertainment for the viewers to normalize paralysis so, eventually, everyone wonders what the original problem was.
1
UK soccer is in its best shape in ten years!
Last night after Liverpool defeated Bayern Munich 3-1 in Germany, there were four UK clubs in the last eight of the prestigious Champions League.
There are no clubs from Germany in the last eight, as their last three participants were dumped out by English clubs.
There are no French clubs either. The remaining competitors are from Spain, Italy, Portugal and the Netherlands (one club from each country).
Go UK!! Must be doing something right.
1
UK teams all have foreign coaches and players
10
@giles
Me > "Go UK!! Must be doing something right."
Giles > "UK teams all have foreign coaches and players"
Me > That's what they're doing right. And let's not forget - the top UK clubs are all owned by foreigners.
May was given the impossible task of trying to guide a slow moving trainwreck into the station safely while Brexiteers continue to refuse to switch tracks or engage the dead man's switch. Now they'll get what they so richly deserve and like the United States take the 49% who voted no with them. She should resign and let them have their mess while Putin chuckles at how well his troll farm meddling worked.
3
@Tim Yes, I don't understand why she hasn't resigned, if for no other reason than this whole mess is a pain in the you know what and she is trying to deal with a bunch of self-abosorbed intractable British politicians who aren't really much interested in getting anything done.
Poor Britain. When you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.
4
Can we please stop referring to the possible next referendum as the 2nd referendum. The 1st referendum on whether the UK should remain in the EC (now the EU) was on June 5th 1975 (67% said yes). The 2nd was in 2016. If there is another it would be the 3rd.
1
The European Union and the European Common Market were very different things.
If you're going to get so pithy, start by educating yourself.
Common Market was vastly different.
I lived in Europe through the implementation of the EU. It was great.
2nd vote to leave EU. Upcoming
1
Even a child can see the solution at this time. A SECOND BREXIT VOTE. Otherwise conservative goofballs have put the UK in weak position world wide. Thanks guys.
2
It's odd that self-annointed British "nationalists" like Nigel Farange & Company seem to think that the path to greater autonomy means becoming an economic vassal of the United States. That is, after all, the Brexit back-up plan.
Of course I'm not sure what's in it for us given that the U.K.'s per capita GDP is equivalent to South Carolina's - 44th in the nation. Their real value to us is their role as an Anglophone springboard to the EU market - which will evaporate with Brexit. It's absurd to think we will make up for that loss by an increase in chicken exports - chlorinated or unchlorinated.
No, I'm not sure it's a good idea for us to assume the role of lifeline for Britain's chronically anemic economy. Besides which, they would be fools to trust any trade commitment made by the U.S. - a nation as politically dysfunctional as theirs.
83
@Gary F.S.
The only reason Trump is pushing this lifeline business is because he and the Brexiteers are coworkers- they all promoted him and it is a group of people working together to push the same agenda.
7
@Gary F.S. Your comments are a pure hyperbole. Britain's G7 2.6 trillion dollar economy is still larger than France or India and almost twice as much as Russia. To use South Carolina's per capita GDP to dismiss the UK in a 'what's in it for us' way is extremely disingenuous. Britain is still a nuclear power and has one the the few blue water navies in the world, it will continue to be a friend and useful ally of the USA, Brexit or not. To abandon the country simply because it may no longer be in the EU would show the USA to be a very fair weather friend indeed.
@Martin The U.K.'s GDP is inflated by its robust financial services sector. That sector only exists because of Britain's membership in the EU. The Brexit vote in 2016 caused a capital flight from the City. As a result, where French per capita GDP has expanded every year since 2015 - like most of the EU including Italy and Spain - the British have seen theirs plummet. Without EU membership, the U.K.'s economy will continue to wither.
Per capita GDP is short-hand for how productive an economy is. It is entirely legitimate to use it as a tool for comparison. Consider California with its 2.4 trillion dollar economy only slightly smaller than the U.K.'s 2.6., but Calif. also has 28 million fewer residents. Why would anyone prefer trade with the U.K. over California? Only a fool would. California, India, China - their economies are growing and the U.K.'s isn't. That's the reality the British people refuse to face. Four decades of Thatcherism/Blairism have destroyed their competitive edge.
And I'm afraid the usefulness of Britain as an ally is questionable at best. The Pentagon's dissatisfaction with the performance British army in Iraq and British intelligence was by 2007 a major source of conflict and a matter of public record.
Thatcher pompously declared that Britain was a place where you could "chart your own destiny." The British did when they embraced the delusional bigotry of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson. No reason why we ought to be dragged down with them.
2
After centuries of Euorpean wars, colonizing countries around the world the United Kingdom's stogy upper lipped arogance is being bloodied.
It is hard to imagine that within the past 100-years the island country was nearly destroyed during WWll, yet united all of Europe to fight against Nazism.
Today the United Kingdom stands alone becuse of money, and the ignorance of its voting people weary of "foriengners," from lands they invaded and colonized as they are willing to seperated from a European Union that benifits every country as a whole.
This entire ordeal is reminiscent of a young child's anger because their groups of friends are not paying homage to their idiotic racial and fearful beliefs.
The United Kingdon should never have been admitted to the European Union when they refused to use the European currancey, and should not be readmitted until they capitulated to become fully invested in the European Union as a whole.
Suffering is a learning experience to become a better country and friend to all.
33
Cannot agree more.
"Foreigners are ruining our culture"
Even ran into ex-Pats living in Asia who loudly stated the same thing. The irony.
14
@Marty Except the UK didn't colonise any of the countries in the EU.
And, can you really say the EU has benefitted every country as a whole? Greece was forced to accept punitive austerity by the EU. Their economy was strangled by the Euro, whose strength supports the German economy at the expense of southern Europe.
1
@Marty "The United Kingdon should never have been admitted to the European Union when they refused to use the European currancey, " The UK was in the EEC 25 years before the Euro was adopted, your understanding of EEC/EU history is poor. And your comment that the UK is angry because they feel the EU does "not pay homage to their idiotic racial..beliefs" is utterly absurd. The UK is a modern liberal society and the the least homogenous in the EU. I am amazed so many NYT readers upvoted this nonsense.
2
A government paralyzed by stupidity. Sound familiar?
5
@David, yes.
How many are really interested anymore in Britain and its Brexit saga ?It all seems to have become such a joke !
3
I can’t wrap my head around what many of the conservative MPs want here.
They back an anti-no deal motion, but at the same time have been consistently rejecting the deal on the table.
It is unlikely they will ever get a deal that they truly like. Parliament can keep kicking the can down the road but at certain point folks will have to decide: deal or no deal.
If neither options sound good then do what’s right and put it to a re-referendum.
1
The EU has to push back on this. If there had been true movement towards a resolution, sure, give the UK time to work it out. But the face that the British Parliament is showing right now is one of chaos.
Why would you give an extension to that? Reject it; force the issue; end this mess.
8
I'm sure Parliament will vote for a Brexit deal that ensures the UK receives all the benefits of EU membership, but eliminates all the obligations. Everyone - except the EU - can agree that would be the perfect outcome the UK voters wanted.
Once they stop laughing in Brussels, the UK will crash out of the EU. Sadly, Parliament is going to have to face up to the fact that it's either crash out or give up Brexit. I wonder if they have the guts to choose (in which case they crash out, I suppose, and that's a choice).
If I'm the EU, I give the UK an extension to 1 May with the clear understanding their will be no extension beyond that date and the EU should make preparations for a no deal Brexit.
19
The "backstop" is a hazy and misleading term. If the U.K. leaves the E.U., there will be a hard border in Ireland, just as there are hard borders now between the E.U. and the former Yugoslavia. If every truck were not examined, obviously the tariffs in either direction would be ignored. The Irish border would become a sieve for tariff dodgers.
6
The article almost ignores the possibility that the European Council could reject a request by the UK for an extension of the withdrawal date. But EU leaders have made an extension conditional on a concrete plan from the UK to justify the extension—a plan such as a second referendum that would break the UK's deadlock. Parliamentary indecision, with no end in sight, would not count as a plan justifying an extension.
An extension would require a unanimous vote in favor by all European heads of government. An extension would also handicap the EU by keeping its attention focused on the ongoing Brexit crisis. It does not seem plausible that European heads of government would unanimously support an extension to a UK government with no clear prospect of resolving its deadlock when that extension would be counter to the interests of European countries lacking much economic connection to the UK.
16
Of course there should be a delay. The UK is not ready to leave the EU. There is no meaningful solution in place that would avoid a hard border in Ireland should further negotiations between the UK and EU fail to arrive at a long-term solution.
Prime Minister May is desperately trying to avoid a split in the Conservative Party. There is still a small chance that her compromise may win the day. But it is more likely that there is no deal that will: (i) satisfy the hard Brexiteers; (ii) satisfy the EU; and (iii) pass Parliament.
May's strategy to run the clock down, rely on vague statements and assurances, and then try to force acceptance of her compromise at the last minute seems flawed and risky. Its unfortunate she didn't employ her leadership over the past two years to educate the UK people on the reality of the situation and seek consensus on a meaningful compromise.
5
Conditions of EU membership that made it unpopular with a majority of UK voters are causing dissatisfaction in other EU countries as well. Even Brits who voted to remain may not be fully on board with an overbearing Brussels bureaucracy, the expense of membership, EU rules on cross-border migration and ceding power to the European parliament. Yet there seems to be no movement for reform that would protect the benefits of the EU while mitigating its more problematic aspects. One may suspect that the European business and political elite class likes things just as they are.
1
The likely outcome of this "chaos" is an Exit from Brexit. British citizens should be grateful that they get a chance to undo a bad decision made in ignorance. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
9
If repeated meaningful votes are good enough for Parliament they’re good enough for national referendums. So much more is known about what succession entails now. Make a cogent case for leave or remain and let the people decide. It’s been two years since the last one.
181
@Charles Dean
What would you do if the leavers won again? Would you keep holding referendums until you got the answer you wanted?
2
@Ted Morton No one is proposing infinite referendums. A second referendum on whether the country still wishes to leave, now that the terms of exit are known (as opposed to utterly ambiguous and undiscussed in the first referendum) is not only prudent, it's also fundamentally democratic. To insist there can be no second vote is not to defend democracy; on the contrary, it's tyrannical. It's to shackle indefinitely the British population to a single vote made 3 years ago, when no one knew what Brexit meant.
And what are you worried about exactly? If you are confident Britain wishes to leave, you have nothing to fear -- Britain will vote to leave again. If you are afraid Britain has changed its mind, why would you want it to leave against the revised popular will?
Hardliners such as yourself sound to me like people with self-interest who fear they lucked out the first time and so want to seal in that victory by any means. Those who truly believe in democracy are not afraid of consulting the people at any time, for any reason.
80
@Charles Dean
Excellent point. More information = a better vote.
And if vote is again to leave, then just do it with a deal of without one. But at least then people would be aware of the consequences of their choice.
24
Don't ask any Brits to explain what's going on. We know no more than you do.
The last month or so, many of have felt ourselves to be not the citizens of a country, but the inmates of an insane asylum.
26
@nolongeradoc > many of have felt ourselves to be not the citizens of a country, but the inmates of an insane asylum. <
We share so much more than a language. :)
5
Good! Exiting the EU is a huge mistake! Ireland will come out a huge winner if Brexit were to go forward.
That is so the opposite of what will happen its tragically hilarious !! Check your facts!
@Chris Longobucco I don't think anyone is a winner from Brexit except Russia.
Why the schizophrenic voting in Parliament? Cold feet?
The Brexit vote of the people supposedly needs to be respected, but a new vote (either referendum or elections) is apparently out of the question, probably because polls suggest the "wrong" result i.e. remain.
Parliament doesn't want Brexit without a deal with the EU, but the best and final EU offer was already rejected.
What are we supposed to think of this? Are the members of parliament still stuck in cakeism, thinking the EU will somehow at the last moment allow access to its market without subscribing to all four freedoms?
What will more time achieve? Will Brexit fatigue push Britain to just get it over with or will cooler heads prevail as more corporations divest?
Theresa May should at this point hand in her resignation to the Queen and Jeremy Corbyn, let's not even...
2
ANOTHER delay. I say: Come off the pot, Britts. Either you leave the EU or you don't. This is going on now for 3 years already, and the uncertainty is creating havoc on the markets. And the deeper problem here is not Brexit, but the fact that eurocrats in Brussels are trying to create a European federation based on the US model. Unfortunately, that will never work in Europe. To give you an example; in the US people FIRST feel like an American, and only then Texan, New Yorker or whatever state. In Europe, that will never happen. Germans don't feel a connection to Bulgarians, and Finns don't feel a connection with Portugese. And nobody on that continent will ever feel "a European" first. It is a common culture and a common language that binds people. The "United States of Europe" will therefore miserably fail, and Brexit is just the preamble to that. As long as eurocrats in Brussels do not want to face those facts, events like Brexit will be with us.
1
The EU should hold the fire to UK’s feet and hold fast to the March 29, 2019 separation date. No one has come up with a plan better than those proposed by PM May. Let the UC crash out because they dug their own grave. The Brits want their cake and eat it too. Time’s up, Britons. Pull the plug, the EU!
5
@Hopeless American 16.9 million Brits voted to stay in the EU. What about them? they were very happy with their cake.
5
@Hopeless American I wanted my UK eggs to stay in the EU cake as did over 48% of voters in the referendum. We're as appalled as many of you non-Trump supporters are about the state of US politics. The 52% were told simple but effective lies, now debunked, which swayed them when they read their tabloid headlines. By the way, where's the UC?
3
Like hopefully our conservatives soon, the Torries seem to reap and catch up finally to their deceitful style of governance and demagogery. For decades, it was them cutting programs, unregulating banks, selling out the entire industry chains to "investors" who left entire region without work to delapidate and waste, albeit deflecting all these deeds as "EU" induced...and having their Murdoch yellow press feed the growing anger with lies.
The EU spent billions on programs to uplift entire regions, like Wales and especially Northern Irland, to ease the coming together of the open Irish border after decades of blood spilled since 98.
Now with the Irish backstop dilemma, their hard core members prove again, that it is only about fake dogmas, and not about actual peoples livelyhoods. Not in Wales, not NI, nor in other regions of England. As one Spanish newspaper stated after the last vote defeat: "The Torries are decomposing..."
12
The EU should grant more time, a week or so, only if it is used by Parliament to vote a new referendum or new elections (in that case, if those votes prevail, the EU should grant further extensions for these to happen yet the UK should forfeit representation in the European Parliament).
Otherwise the EU only becomes an enabler to a broken and incompetent clique of politicians and their empty populist maneuvers.
3
@Yoandel I think the EU needs to be wary of granting more time. If it does, it should be for a very limited time -- perhaps an initial week as you suggest, but extensions only up until about June or so of this year, which would take them to the third anniversary of the Brexit vote. I can only imagine how much this mess has cost the EU administration. I think they have more important things t worry about than the UK.
Headline should be Britain set to BEG to put back departure date--UK can revoke departure, but a mere extension is not in their power without unanimous agreement from EU (watch Italy).
2
this show just proves Britain is not mature enough to be part of the EU. hard Brexit is the only possible issue. what? they don't want a hard Brexit? so why did they campaign and vote to do so. decades of à la carte policies for Britain cannot go any longer. Britain must leave and stop pulling the wrong way.
4
Everyone said sequestration would not happen in the US because the consequences were so horrible, but it did. I don’t think the British populace explicitly voted for a no-deal hard Brexit, yet that is what a minority in Parliament will achieve with this continued gridlock of no other good options. A second referendum is justifiable and sorely needed to clarify what the populace really wants.
5
@EW From my armchair, I see Brexit has only one last hurdle. The Brexit Deal on the whole appears to be very intelligently constructed, a positive result both for Britain and the Continent.....
The deal breaker comes down to a lasting achilles heel in Britain........Ireland.
Ireland is set up as a Tax Haven.....largely for US companies....Apple, Facebook, Google, the usual gang of Robber Barons. This set up has been immensely profitable for Ireland AND for Europe.
But then there's this "open border" thing with Northern Ireland(read that as .... Britain).
What happens if Ireland joins the UK again? Does it lose its Tax Haven status? Will we have a United Ireland again? Will it have Home Rule(yes....seems obvious). How will the Vatican conspire to sabotage the deal by manipulating Catholic Ireland(as well as Catholic England, Scotland, etc) and keep UK inside the EU(modern day Holy Roman Empire_)?
@EW, the thing is, a "second referendum" makes no sense. Referendum are there to decide issues. You can't keep organizing referendum when you don't like the initial outcome. The die has been cast, and now it is time to act accordingly. Because even if a second referendum would be held and the outcome would be "stay", almost half of the population would not agree with that outcome anyway. So it would not solve a thing. The Britts need to leave. And guess what - it will not be the end of the world. Just like Y2K was not the end of it, despite all the dire predictions.
2
@TermlimitsNow
Ooh that winds me up. An awful lot of people worked very hard for several years, amending code, systems, databases, testing, reverting, building and testing contingency plans. They did their level best to ensure Y2K didn’t cause the problems it could have. I was in the office at 6am on 1st January 2000 checking everything worked. No New Millennium celebrations for me or my staff until the next week.
As opposed to what’s happened with Brexit. Nothing looked at properly until the 11th hour, and the main contingency plan apparently being good old British pluck.
4
It seems most all western governments are feeble, confused, corrupt, or inept. Unable to manage their own affairs equitably they agitate and subvert third world democracies and promote oligarchies and despots. They can’t seem to execute the will of the 1% without filing up the masses. Is this the last dying gasp of effective, fair minded democracy? May seems overmatched in real world governance. Macron has France in a mess. Greece is still Greece. Trump is president of the US! Need more be said?
2
Obviously there needs to be a new referendum with three options:
Stay,
Go with the only deal on offer, or
Go without a deal
Use ranked choice voting, where everyone can vote for their first and second preferences, and i think you would even get a mandate for one outcome.
And hopefully for the UK, the EU would allow and extension for a referendum, and then allow the UK to rescind Brexit, as I think that would be the clear result.
What nonsense and a waste of everyone’s time. The UK needs to put on its big kid pants and deal with this head on.
5
This Parliament has managed to make the Magna Carta seem like a really bad idea. Surely the Queen can have them all locked in The Tower and put Prince George and his fellow pre-schoolers in charge. They’d be hard-pressed to do a worse job of it.
6
Ironic that a country that built its wealth on disrupting the economies of others (cotton/textiles) is now disrupting itself.
6
They couldn't do anything for two years so now they want somebody else to save them from themselves. Ha. Sounds like Trump.
7
Given that Brexit has not unfolded in the way its proponents presented to the voters, a second referendum seems to be the only fair way to resolve this.
Also, let's not forget that the first referendum was not binding.
11
They can only ask for an extension. All EU members have to agree to that and I can't imagine that this can exceed May 22 overall.
It looks like the UK is loosing their gamble that the EU would fold when the hard Brexit would just be close enough.
3
Voting to delay Brexit is like opting to keep cousin Vinnie on life support...you know the outcome will never be good but it puts off having to make funeral arrangements.
5
It’s just kicking the can down the road, unless there is a new referndum which on the other hand seems to be quintessentially undemocratic.
3
I disagree that it’s undemocratic. It was ludicrous to have the country vote based on scant information (not to mention that only 51% had to endorse it).
Wouldn’t it be prudent, now that the voters have a real sense of what they are in for, to decide if they are indeed willing to do it? Treating vote 1 as endorsement to pursue it, and treating vote 2 as an agreement to the terms now that they’ve been brokered.
9
@heinrich zwahlen
Democracy will be harmed by MORE democracy?
That doesn't sound convincing.
6
We used to believe that British conservatives were more intelligent and open to reason than our home-grown retrogrades. As we witness their incapacity to reckon with the reality of something as fundamental as the Irish border, it's clear they're as feckless as their American counterparts.
Note to conservatives: the Protestant Reformation is over.
17
The Brits should trash the whole Brexit debacle. This is another fine example of people not knowing what it means to be proactive. Before this Brexit idea was even submitted to the people to vote on, the powers that be should have been prepared to implement Brexit.
4
Hindsight is 20-20. Knowing what they do now, it seems canceling Brexit is the most sane and sage action.
32
@BMD. So ignore the voters.
1
@BMD. Agree. Give the voters a chance to vote again, when they have more knowledge of the real pros and cons. Don't stick with a decision made based on delusion, manipulation and lies.
3
Parliament voted against both leaving with a deal as well as leaving without a deal. Guess what that leaves?
What kind of fishbowl are those MPs swimming in? They act as though the referendum must be respected even though in the end it cannot be.
7
@A Hammick
It's not the referendum which, so much, must be respected [1], it's the outcome which cannot be. No-Deal Brexit will knock back the UK decades, brutalise, sicken and impoverish the ordinary man and lay the nation open to the plunder of its treasure by rapacious, destructive outside corporate interests - most particularly American ones. Regain sovereignty and independence? Not when leaving the EU means instead subservience to the United States as the new Puerto Rico. The only people to benefit are the super wealthy 0.1% 'elite' salivating over the impending shorting of everything British and gleefully anticipating the asset stripping of a 1st world country.
NOBODY voted for this, however much Ultra Brexiters shout. This sort of act of degrading national self-harm was promoted by no one in the run up to the referendum. Not even mentioned it.
[1] Brexit is a Right wing coup funded by dark money and has the prints of Mercer, Bannon and Putin all over it. The referendum vote was fraudulently obtained and is morally void. The 2016 Referendum was only legally 'advisory' not binding and thus there is no legal mechanism to annul it. The UK's High Court has ruled that it been constructed as a binding vote, the result would definitely be void. Clever, eh? This probably explains why the police investigation of the electoral fraud has been stonewalled and generally obstructed by the Tory government. The whole think stinks to high heaven. I won't 'respect' it.
3
Brexit is a prefect example of why a republican form of governance is preferable to a to a purely democratic form of governance. The citizens of the UK simply didn’t have the necessary knowledge to make an informed decision on Brexit. Perhaps their elected representatives didn’t have this knowledge either but the odds of getting a better decision regarding the UK and the EU would have certainly improved.
5
The Brits have rejected leaving without a deal. A second referendum should be offered : Leave with no deal, or Remain.
Those two options are within their sole, sovereign power to effect — once they accept that they will not ever get a deal they would want.
2
This entire mess could have been avoided had there been a two-referendum process in place from the beginning, with a second referendum a year after the first one, allowing time for public reconsideration.
Alternatively, a single supermajority vote could have been established.
Questions of such national importance should not be based on a single simple majority vote which may be (and appears to have been) tangential.
The British experience is a superb lesson in what to avoid should the US ever adopt a federal referendum process.
3
@bloggersvilleusa, right you are, but the coulda-woulda-shoulda game doesn't do any good now. It's time for the what-WILL-happen game, which is much more difficult.
2
"Prime Minister Theresa May has insisted that the possibility of a no-deal Brexit remains an option, arguing that to remove it from her negotiating arsenal would deny her leverage in dealing with the European Union."
Brilliant. This is akin to holding a gun to my head and threatening to shoot myself if I don't get my way. Appears May has been studying The Art of the Deal.
9
The biggest risk for the EU: a no-deal Brexit that sends the British economy soaring.
I have a hunch that the biggest peddlers of the "disaster scenario" storyline are not necessarily on the island side of things.
Could a hard Brexit be a catastrophy for the British economy?
Everyone seems to agree that it would.
Could this be a black swan event for the EU in which Britain not only survives Brexit but seemingly comes out better off on the other side?
The chances might be higher than most people think.
8
@Sam I think both sides will be just fine after a while, even after a hard Brexit.
2
@Sam
Sam, considering that nearly every reputable economist, organization and indeed the British Treasury itself have determined that a no-deal Brexit will significantly hurt the nation's economy short-term and especially long-term, no, the chances really are not that high.
15
@Nick I would tend to agree. It's only recently that I started to think of the alternative. Two years of pondering over how this will all end, and I never once considered what would happen in this scenario. Sometimes the biggest risks are those you don't consider.
1
This is so awful. Can’t the other intelligent EU countries just kick the UK to the curb and move on? Why would they tolerate this silliness?
15
@Matthew I guess the EU has pity on the 48,5% who actually want to stay and are basically held "hostage" to this nonsense. Otherwise I agree, just kick them out and let them really deal with it.
3
"Still, when Parliament convened on Wednesday, she supported the motion asking lawmakers to state that they were opposed to leaving the European Union on March 29 unless there was a deal in place. But Parliament went one step further and voted against leaving the bloc without a deal under any circumstances, at any time — a sharp rebuke to Mrs. May."
It seems that British politicians collectively believe -- in their very British manner -- that they still have complete control over their fate, when the opposite seems to be true. At this point, if nothing changes, Britain will crash out of the EU on March 29.
Parliament's vote to rebuke May, "against leaving the bloc without a deal under any circumstances, at any time," does not address the reality, will not stop the march of time or the consequences of their inability to agree on a course of action.
3
@Dan88, Exactly. March 29th is the in or out date, and there is no reason for the EU to extend the deadline further.
2
Over the last 4 centuries, we're learned about about governance from the UK; some good, others not so much. I hope this becomes an election issue here in the US as a real-time demonstration of the short-sightedness and dangers of isolationism. That might be the greatest contemporary lesson we can learn from the UK.
6
@Frank unfortunately the US doesn’t even learn from itself, let alone other countries.
8
@Frank
The main lesson to be learned is that once a country adopts a major structural change, for good or ill, it's almost impossible to reverse it. There quickly become too many entrenched interests. Americans who opposed the Affordable Care Act discovered that when Republicans became the majority party in Congress, believing they had a mandate to repeal it. Once repeal became a political possibility, public attitudes changed overnight. Even after only a few years of existence, the ACA became regarded as an indispensable component of US health insurance because too many people had to much to lose without it.
The UK, by joining the EU but not adopting the Euro may have thought it was only wading into the European sea without getting in over its head. They found out that sandy bottom was really quicksand.
@Robert
We can take some lessons from the Liberals in Canada I guess and shutdown investigations before they get started. What was the cry during the meeting yesterday of the Justice Committee? Was it 'Coverup'? That's what the news coverage I watched showed.
What a mess the Brits have maneuvered themselves in: first they take a nonbinding vote to exit the EU, based on total lies and misrepresentions at face value, secondly, they believe in delusional cherrypicking of EU bonuses while dropping all commitments which are part of membership, Thirdly, nobody -neither government torry/ulster party , nor independent/ labor opposition- have any conclusive „plan“ of what would actually consitute to be a feasable plan.
Now, after having voted down a second time any deal with the EU, they want to vote on agreeing on not leaving without a deal, hoping to stay in an indefinite loop of not having a clue as what to do to actually „leave.“
One official correctly compared it to „The Titanic voting for the Iceberg to move.“
The EU has stated they are ready: either deal or no deal, but there is no reason to prolong a „Leave“ that is not happening. For what? Unless thee is a reason, like a second referendum, a new election to change negotiating parties, otherwise, it is nonsense.
Despite this chaos reigning in Westminster, it is at least profoundly reassuring, that, compared to our disfunctional adminstration , the UK’s Air saftey control is still led by conscious officials. Cudos for that!
26
Yes, the U.S. and Great Britain are very similar these days.
In both countries, we are seeing what happens when modern conservatives get control. They cannot actually govern, because the dishonest promise that brought them to power - the fantasy of a return to simpler times that never actually existed - cannot be carried out in the real world. Meanwhile, the twin existential threats of growing economic inequality and climate change continue to worsen and go unaddressed.
Here, we see government shutdowns, there the impossibility of have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too Brexit. The underlying cause of the gridlock is the same.
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@David the problem is that while the West is trying to go back to simpler times, China and other Asian countries push forward and in 10-20 years, we’ll be reaping the rotten fruit that we’ve sowed.
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People in the UK deservedly rolled their eyes at the US for electing Trump and the ensuing mayhem, but honestly from here it doesn't look like they are doing much better.
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Trump is for a term or two, but Brexit is forever.
Somehow UK wins the award for worst decision here...
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The E.U. isn’t going to extend the deadline without some conditions. Perhaps the E.U. could suggest an extension would suit them if May is dumped and a new election called? How about that?
Another referendum is no answer. We know already the Oligarchs have in place a well-oiled brainwashing machine prepared to shower disinformation in a deluge that drowns out all but alternative facts.
5
There is a long and honorable tradition among British politicians of resigning when their various policies fail to be supported by their party or by Parliament. Most recently David Cameron chose this path. In America we have no such tradition other than resignation forced by outright disgrace, the "I am not a quitter" syndrome shown by Richard Nixon.
Ms May came in to power through such a resignation, and under British tradition there is no great disgrace in her accepting that it is time again for a new Prime Minister who may have some hope of leading the nation through and out of this mess.
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@Old Ben. David Cameron initiated this tragic farce when, for short-term political gain, he offered the Brexit referendum. I don't know how the long eye of history will view Cameron, but his place looks mighty dim at the moment. Other politicians, like those who overstated the benefits of leaving th EU and understated the downside, and angry, not reasoned, British voters all played their part.
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@Old Ben
'The long and honorable tradition among British politicans of resigning...'
This tradition died many years ago. British politicans are now famous (at least among Britons) for NOT resigning when their policies fail spectacularly. Theresa May is only the latest example. Those politicans who do resign have usually been asked to do so ( in other words they have been forced out) 'for the sake of the party'.
The political landscape of the UK today is nothing like it was during the 1960's when the Profumo affair occured for example. The moral codes have been degraded and 'honor' hardly plays a part.
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@Old Ben I can bet if she did the Tory Party would pick Boris Johnson because they really don't get it. I am always amazed they have this thing about the upper class, but they keep electing the upper class nitwits to govern them. People need to go back into the late 60's early 70's and watch an old Monty Python skit all those years ago and yet they still hit the nail on the head. As a sidenote I bet Churchill at some point will come up, but yes he was a great wartime leader who once the ended went back to his old colonist ways. Voted out because he saw no need also to provide social benefits for the masses, the ones that had been slaughtered in two world wars. They never get it. Now, they are in a box of their own making even the Unionists of Northern Ireland don't get it, but then again maybe they want the Troubles to return and they will with a Hard Border. Jim Trautman
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If there is to be a new referendum on Brexit, it needs to offer at least three choices:
1) Stay in the EU.
2) Leave under a compromise deal with the EU.
3) Just leave with no deal ('hard Brexit').
In such a referendum I am fairly certain none of the 3 options would get the majority, in which case the obvious solution is to leave things as they are by staying in the European Union. That outcome would be every bit as much democracy as the original vote was.
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@Old BenIt’s not democratic for those who voted to leave in the first place.
@heinrich zwahlen
The vote was tainted. Not democratic at all.
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@Old Ben
With respect, your
2) Leave under a compromise deal with the EU.
is a chimera — a unicorn, a mirage. It’s the same illusion (that the UK can get a “GOOD deal“ from the EU) that misled voters in the first referendum into a false sense of security, thinking no harm could come from Brexit.
There’s no reason to believe that anyone is going to be able to wrangle a compromise significantly better than what the PM already has negotiated.
So to remove the potential for future self-delusion within the electorate, I would amend your “ 2)” to read
“2) Leave under the compromise deal negotiated by the PM, as of March 13, 2019.”
Even then, you would have to state upfront what your “obvious solution“ is, i.e., to carry the referendum an option must receive a majority of the votes.
But that sounds like, “if neither 1 nor 2 or 3 receives a majority, then 1 wins.”
While that corresponds to what I personally think is the appropriate solution, I think it would be tough to get all parties to agree to frame a second referendum that way.
I agree with you, that a second referendum is needed; however, it probably has to be stated simply as either stay or go.
There is only one viable solution: hold a second referendum and repudiate Brexit.
Otherwise Great Britain will experience dire economic consequences and social unrest.
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There will be social unrest either way. Such an outcome would be seen as a thwarting of democratic intent by the hardline Brexit voters who would likely migrate to fringe nationalist parties.
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@Xoxarle
Except we know the vote was corrupted by Russia.
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@Michael Richter A simple second referendum might not repudiate Brexit. It would have to be much clearer about what the plan is and what will happen. This won't be resolved until someone figures out what the plan is for Ireland.
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This is what happens when populism has its day: uninformed, knee-jerk, nose-in-spite-of-face "decisions" that cannot be implemented. This is not to say that many of the matters that drive people to Brexit are not signs of social injustice: the management class, 1%er above all way that the EU and US define "prosperity." But when you mix that legitimate unrest with nationalism, especially ex-colonial nationalism, the results are ... well, you see them playing out.
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@Midwest - No I don’t see the results in any objective terms or any factual outcomes. What I read is an argument with no fixed definitions of terms used in an emotional manner to state what is an opinion pretending to a belief based on facts. Otherwise known as an argument by gibberish. We as a people are never going to get anywhere if you don’t stop defining that which we don’t know nor understand into something false, i.e, not reality based.
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@Saint-Maly
I understand perfectly what Midwest says, but I don’t uderstand at all what you are trying to say.
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@Midwest Trump / Brexit, two demonstrations of angry, misinformed nationalism and xenophobia. The problem is that once whipped into a frenzy the supporters are blind to the failures of the fantasies and only become more angry and vociferous. The UK and US have truly opened Pandora's box.
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Brexit is going to happen when a referendum declaring the moon to be made of cheese permits Neil Armstrong to visit without packing a lunch.
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When lawmakers have resorted to double-negatives as in an 'anti-no-deal motion', you know you're in trouble. As they say in the UK, this whole Brexit process is a dog's dinner. Good luck.
13
A second referendum is needed.
The situation on the ground is much clearer than during the referendum of 2016. We have a choice - Theresa May's deal (which the EU maintains is the final deal) or withdrawal of Article 50.
In a democracy, the people have a say - and this isn't a one off say, but a continuous process. This is why there are term limits, and regular elections.
If, in a second referendum, the result is the same, the government would be on a much firmer footing.
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@Futureatwalker, wow, what a night! I'm not even remotely a treaty lawyer, but if normal logic applies at all here then the UK Parliament has not only given May permission to withdraw Article 50 before it completes but actually demanded that she do so if there is no ratified exit agreement on whatever the final day ends up being. It seems that she no longer would have to ask Parliament for permission to do that.
Again, if ordinary logic were to hold sway then there is an important ambiguity about Article 50 to be cleared up by the EU. From what I read last fall, EU's highest court issued a ruling that an invocation of Article 50 could be rescinded by the invoking country before the negotiation period ended. On the face of it, this ruling left the invoking country the option of later reinvoking Article 50, setting off a new two-year negotiation period. That would allow time for a second referendum.
However, a UK legislator said last night that an EU high legal official said (classic hearsay!) that such a reinvocation would not be allowed. Were that true, then revoking Article 50 would be the end of Brexit entirely, so a second referendum would be moot.
I imagine that I am not the only person waiting with bated breath for a clarification.
1
This is what happens when you combine nationalism with deception and an uninformed, gullible electorate, plus a healthy dash of Russian interference. That's how the Brits got Brexit and that's how we got Trump.
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@Ralphie Yes.
Just in: Speaker has allowed Parliament to vote on whether to hold a second referendum.
2
Note that Britisher Nigel Farage campaigned for Trump in the US.
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@Thomas Dorman Note that Trump wanted him to be the Ambassador of Britain to the US!!!
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It seems to be boiling down to
a) whether there is enough support from Remainer/Softies to amend the government's motion to deny May a third "meaningful vote", and if not, then
b) on that vote next week, if the Malthouse gang of DUP / ERGies who has voted against May's Deal thus far will be turned around, by fear of losting it all, to support it. If she wins, History will cheer her as the stern hand at the helm that guided the Nation through the Brexit hurricane. If she fails, hers will be cited as the worst government for shilly-shally since Neville Chamberlain's.
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@J111111 - Thank you, well said.
I hope that all Americans are watching this and learning a lesson. This is what happens when political parties refuse to compromise.
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@Tom Q
Well, no, not in this case. There is no compromise on being part of the EU or not. It's one or the other. There is no "half-pregnant" compromise.
"Conservatives backed the anti-no-deal motion" had to think about that for a while. Those poor Brits.
12
Call another public referendum, Ms May.. Don't be led by the nose by Vladimir Putin's dark arts disinformation campaign. We are suffering on both sides of the Atlantic from Putinism. America will have its chance in 2020 but for now stop the madness!
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@Haynannu
So if you win in 2020 you will stop screaming Putin? What will you do when you lose again? Notice, I didn't ask 'if you lose again'. You are going to lose in 2020 and it will be because of this non-stop cry of Russia Did It that we have heard ever since your side lost a fair and honest Election. Just like the Remainers lost a fair and honest Election. Just so you know, today's democrats will be compared to yesterday's Roy Cohns and Joseph McCarthys. Same tactics, different age but same badge of shame to wear throughout the rest of History.
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@GregP
It is a fact that Russia interfered in both elections. Ergo - these were not fair and honest elections. Why don’t you care?
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@GregP - It’s as if no wants to be an adult in sense of being able to say (regardless) “yes, I choose that, and yes I’m responsible.” Is everybody degraded by Putin and or Trump? That easily?
1
The old saw about bolting the stable door after the horse has been stolen comes to mind. It was the will of the English countryside not the will of the metropolis that created this mess. It was the ill will of those little English men and women who upset the apple cart. Mean and petty politicians have stoked the embers into an open flame and nobody can put it out.
25
Kick the can down the road by setting back the departure date?
That just delays the inevitable.
The obvious solution is a “re-do” of the Brexit referendum. Why Theresa May has doggedly resisted this obvious solution is a mystery.
Sure it’s embarrassing to Britain, but things have changed and there is new information for the public, and there’s also evidence of individuals leading the Brexit movement being involved with foreign countries.
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"Why Theresa May has doggedly resisted this obvious solution is a mystery."
Not at all. She, like each Tory in the Commons, selfishly seeks to keep her grip on power against Labour and even fellow Tories. The Tories don't give two about "obvious solution"s to the UK's problems—only themselves. The UK is not why they stand for office.
Not that Labour would improve much, between the New Labour wing that tries so hard to be Tories and pro-Brexit Corbyn who seems to want to outfail them.
At the Kremlin, putin roars with triumphant laughter.
32
@SR
Thank goodness someone knows what they are talking about.
One of the main reasons for this embarrassing chaos, that is doing so much harm to the country, is that politicans from all the parties consider their careers first, then their party, then, as a distant third, the well being of the the people that they have been elected to represent.
13
@RHR Well, what you are describing here holds true for the US as well. Here many politicians also consider their careers first, then the party, thirdly the lobbyiests and very wealthy who can support their re-election, then lastly and a distant fourth the electorate.
1
A referendum on such a complex move should have never occurred because most of the electorate just does mot have the will to carefully study all the issues and possible outcomes. At the very least, the referendum should have required a supermajority. Referendums may be more democratic but they can undermine social order if voters do not understand the issues and the electorate is about equally divided.
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@Steve Fielding. Democracy matters. Referendums are more democratic, full stop.
1
@me
It's also democracy that people can be misled or change their minds quickly. There's a reason that the US is a Republic, even though broad swathes of New England were functioning pure democracies in colonial times. There's also a reason that the articles of confederation was scrapped and replaced with the Constitution.
5
Yes these are absolutely the right conclusions to draw from the mess, but none of them wind back the clock, and there will be trouble no matter what the outcome now.
4
The correct course is to scrap Brexit and return to square one. Apparently legal advice says this can be done. If an urge to revisit a second Brexit surfaces, it can be approached with a fuller understanding and greater candor.
However, the May regime is opposed to this approach, and apparently the British system puts her in charge until she is dumped by a no-confidence vote and replaced by the electorate. Too late for that.
So no-deal Brexit it is. The Oligarchs who wanted the E.U. locked out of their decision processes are jubilant!
17
This is want happens when banks rule and government is condemned.
9
Brexit and trump(ism). Now we know what it looks like when the uneducated (trump's words . . .I love the uneducated) are calling the shots. Hopefully a 2nd referendum on brexit, followed by trump's defeat in 2020, will help restore some semblance of sanity in our respective countries.
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Phil, the uneducated aren’t calling the shots with Brexit or with Trump. The course of events is decided by the supine vassals of Oligarchs “running” the government of these countries.
The billionaire bilk artists run a brainwashing machine that incites polarization and drowns out all but alternative facts. The hornswoggled voters put in place their choice among a field of Oligarch selected sycophants.
3
@Phil Hurwitz - You have drawn the wrong conclusions from both. The reasons behind Trump and Brexit, still exist and are not going away. You’ll think that now is the golden age of civilization.
The EU is playing games with the UK, the EU refused to address legitimate concerns over the money that passes from the UK to the EU, start with a 20% Value Added Tax (VAT) or sales tax.
The EU and the Euro currency (which the UK does not use) are on very shaky ground, missing are common Federal rules such as common interest rates or common retirement ages. The root causes of what's wrong with the EU have close parallels with the US; wealth imbalance. It's the poor people who voted to leave; put simply, they see little return for the 20% sales tax on everything.
The EU was deliberately unreasonable in the negotiations for a better remain deal and they are repeating that stance in the Brexit discussions.
Would it be chaotic if the UK left with no deal? Probably, but not half as bad as remainers claim. Despite the EU's claims that it would take years to negotiate new trade deals, they would quickly work out something far better that what they have to date because a huge part of the losses from no trade would affect the EU more than the UK.
4
@Ted Morton
Just a point, VAT is set nationally, there is no one flat-rate so it's not a case of the EU 'imposing' VAT on the UK, the UK sets it's own VAT tariffs, which range from Nil to 20%
30
@Ted Morton
I think you need to redo your lessons: The VAT goes into the UK Government budget, not into the EU.
The UK pays a contribution to the EU, but that is not based on the VAT, but on a budget that is negociated between all member countries ...
You seem to have no clue at all on how the EU works
50
@Marc
Thanks for clarifying that Marc, I'm a bit blurry on some details as I left the UK in 1997 for a better life in the USA and I don't regret that decision (despite the so-called POTUS that we have) but I would sure like to have universal health care; I suspect that the next (Democratic) government will introduce a watered-down version that will allow early buy in to Medicare.
The USA has been good for me, I was not wealthy but was able to earn great money and pay fair taxes for 20 years which has put me in good stead for retirement; I also married a lady from the US and became a citizen in 2007.
How about the UK becomes the 51st state of the USA?
2
A second referendum is not undemocratic, as May contends. The first (which never should have happened) was tainted by piles of misinformation and disinformation. The alternative is a general election, but neither Labour nor the Conservatives has a clear position on the EU and more chaos would result.
41
I assume piles of even more awful misinfo would accompany another referendum. So Careful what you wish for. All the bad actors and entrenched interests are still breathing.
2
@View from the street - Please show the quote where May said it was undemocratic.
Farage should be arrested and his passport confiscated for going to other members of the E.U and telling them to scuttle any extension. Face it. Brexit wrecks it. Second Referendum time. The empire is over an never coming back no matter what some of the Queen's subjects think.
108
Arrest him? I think we just sit back and wait for his constituents to catch up to him later this year when reality manifests itself in their wallets.
1
Probably best to delay until the end of May. This could be as soon as next week or it might not happen until June. During the wait have a properly arranges referendum and proceed based on the outcome. It’s a mess however it is done since there is almost a perfect 50/50 division and very little ground for compromise, especially now that each side has staked its future on prevailing. A lesson here for other governments perhaps but they will probably believe otherwise.
4
@RW "... the end of May" - nice double meaning! Is Theresa May's downfall needed for a more coherent Brexit plan?
1
The failure to abide by the results of the election to leave the E.U. will justifiably cause more distrust of the government and elected officials. This will in turn cause greater instability.
4
@Matthew
the problem is the electorate know the initial referendum, which was advisory and therefore didn't have to be actioned, has been found to have been corrupt by the Electoral Commission. But by a bizarre legal framework, can't be revoked, because it was only advisory. Essentially the current Government are pushing through a decision that has been found to be illegal. That is why so many are demanding a 2nd referendum, now that people have an idea of what they are voting for.
it's interesting that members of parliament are allowed to have multiple votes, 'in case they change their minds' but the electorate are forced to abide by a decision they might have made in 2016, when they didn't know the facts.
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@Matthew
This is true, unfortunately - also because both major parties promised to implement the results of the referendum in the general election in 2017.
I am and always have been a staunch Remainer, and was until very recently a supporter of a second referendum (the argument that the original one represented the settled will of the country was and is ridiculous).
But given the fact that Ms May and her government, backed by much of the media, chose at the very start to interpret a very narrow majority as license to push for a very hard Brexit has polarised the country. That is the source of the tragedy that we are now all living in. The Leave campaign itself, and several prominent Brexiteers, prospected a very soft Brexit, during the campaign, since they recognised the damage that leaving the Single Market would do to our economy, so to interpret the result as a desire for a hard Brexit was and is unforgivable, and led to far more polarisation of opinions than there was at the time of the original referendum. There have been umpteen opportunities to reach out beyond the Conservative party and agree on a soft Brexit proposal that would command support , but there has never been any real attempt to do this.
Now that we are where we are, the only way to properly heal the rifts in our society is to lance the boil of lies and wishful thinking, getting rid of them once and forever. That means crashing out. Postponing, softening or even cancelling Brexit will not do it.
4
@Matthew In the 33 months since that first referendum, 2.4 million overwhelmingly Brexiter older voters have died. They have ceased to exist, they are no more.
In their place, there are about 2 million new young people who have passed the age threshold to vote in this period. Polls suggest they are 80% pro-remain.
Polls also suggest Remain leads by 56 to 44% now. It has been leading in the polls in the last 18 months or so.
The public by and large has refused to follow in the footsteps of extreme rightists like Rees-Moog and Farage, both Putin's puppets. That has to be recognized by that dysfunctional parliament.
5