Here are women of substance and valor and bravery... while in our country 2 Hollywood moms break the law to over indulge their already spoiled children into college. Scheesch..
2
Al-Hathloul, Sotoudeh, and many other women who risk their lives in their home countries, where Patriarchy rules - those are true heroes.
Today the US rarely sees or produces such heroes like these. When I hear the term hero attached to an American, male or female, who does tourist-human rights excursions, it makes me sick. Angelina Jolie, et al, is not a hero. The women mentioned here are heroes.
America lacks real heroes. Its why we're in the mess we're in...with Trump and his deplorable caravan. Its why we're still fighting Nazi's! Why sexism is still an issue. Its why we're being drowned by -ISMS. That should have been long gone.
But we lack real heroes. We don't make them much anymore. And when we find someone worth a glance...its tainted by some personal Branding of some sort. They're in it for some personal gain.
We're a culture that looks to Hollywood. Sports for heroism. We're a culture obsessed with comic book heroes. Where boys are nurtured on super-human freaks with super-powers. Not regular human powers.
Sotoudeh, al-Hathloul, and many other non-Americans, so many of them female, living at daily risk for their lives...they are the future of humanity.
If the men in their lives, and around them don't exterminate them first.
Our time of greatness is likely now past. Unless there is a severe turn-around in the US...like neck snapping severe, we'll be left way behind. Likely to swirl down the drain...
4
The Nobel is awarded for what you do and not for what is done TO you.
Kissinger? Arafat? Nobel Peace Prize? Fooey.
Religious belief is turning this world into a perfect Hell.
3
These women are indeed heroes. Incredibly, indescribably brave.
Begs the question: what are these men afraid of? What is it about empowered women that is so very threatening to men everywhere?
8
You'd think that in the world according to Nick that Obama and noble democrat presidents over the decades have kept Iran and Saudi Arabia in line when it comes to human rights, and it was only when Trump became president that the Saudi's and Iranians began their assault on human rights. Really?
Certainly Iran and SA as well as many other states around the world are barbaric. But they were barbaric before Trump and he isn't the first president to put strategic US interests ahead of human rights. It's the way the US does business.
That takes nothing away from the bravery of these two women. But why try to interject a negative comment about Trump in every story regardless. Do you really think that if and when the dems take the WH they will denounce SA for human rights violations? Obama didn't.
despite the appearance of women as heroic figures in Arab literature from the past, the status of women in Islamic societies seems to be as second class citizens. societies that repress women and treat them as mere chattel will never amount to anything of importance.
1
Where can I find the prominent Muslim-American voices speaking out in defense of these women? Are there websites or Twitter accounts? it would be a good time to show moderate Muslims our support!
1
Dunno. Gandhi was nominated 5 times for the peace prize and never won.
What makes these women so special?
When in my mind I juxtapose an image if MBS--a physically imposing, arrogant brutal murderer with an image of Nasrin Sotoudeh, a slight, selfless, noble woman--I am left wondering how anybody could believe that the meek shall inherit the earth.
1
I hope all of us can live up to the example that these women have set for us.
1
"I know I’ll get notes from people who harrumph that the problem is simply Islam."
The people who lack the common sense to be able to think like this clearly don't see what's right in front of them: 2 Muslim women, who practice their faith, trying to make their countries - and therefore the world - a better place to live in for everyone. I am always amazed at how people make a scapegoat out of something instead of using their common sense.
I am very glad that I haven't seen any comments (I've probably jinxed it by saying it) for this article that illustrates this lack of sense.
The cases of Nasrin Sotoudeh and Loujain al-Hathloul are among the latest examples of government wrongdoing. Since its invention millennia ago, government has victimized innocent people. It simply can't be trusted to stop victimizing people once and for all. To protect society, simply appealing to the the rulers' own moral sense can't be rationally relied on to permanently stop them from violating the red lines.
While some extreme pacifists believe that force is always wrong, pacifism is morally wrong. For example, if we saw someone attempting to kill a child, and we could save the child by using force against the assailant, this is ethically required. Analogously, getting tough with the rulers is an absolute moral responsibility.
The lure of power can be tempting, but knowing they could face the correct penalties, including the ultimate penalty could help us rectify the inequitable power relationship between the rulers and ruled, deterring them from ever crossing the red lines in the first place, thus leading to a more peaceful society for ourselves and our descendants.
Nicholas Kristof and the NYT deserve credit for doggedly pursing reporting of the cases of Nasrin Sotoudeh and Loujain al-Hathloul -- this is journalism at its best!!
4
The treatment of these women exposes these monstrous regimes for what they are: sadistic brutes. A government that resorts to such horrific measures creates a kind of hell on earth. To the concern for these brave women, I would add a cautionary note: the US must resist the use of torture, stepping back from recent policy (as in Guantanamo) and renewing a commitment to upholding standards of human rights, without exception. When torture is sanctioned by the State, it feeds the beasts rather than trying to rein them in. These stories show a moral cancer that has rotted the very souls of those in power.
Another poor soul in dire need of the world's attention Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe.
Please remember that this falsely accused, innocent woman is into her third year of imprisonment in Iran. Her only offense was to take her young daughter to her birth country of Iran to visit her parents and family.
"Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is a British-Iranian mum, a project manager with the Thomson Reuters Foundation – the charitable arm of the news agency – and a former BBC employee. "
You can see the real Ms Sotoudeh, human rights lawyer in Iran, in the wonderfully fascinating movie “Jafar Panahi’s Taxi”. What a shocking loss to humanity for a person of her extraordinary caliber to be imprisoned
Thank you, Mr. Kristof, for telling the stories of these heroes. I wish the news desk at the NY Times would make their stories front page news.
1
I agree.
However, I would also like to nominate Jimmy Carter, at the age of 90 and suffering from cancer, THE ONLY AMERICAN OF ANY STATURE, MALE OR FEMALE, who champions equal rights for women around the world.
2
It's even more sinister than Trump's support of human rights "only in the countries that he despises." It's possible that he might quietly despise Saudi and Iran and STILL not support human rights there. That's how people who will do anything to work a deal behave. Saudi is the number one customer of U.S. weapons.
3
These women do deserve the Nobel, but also and more meaningfully, freedom. Our country also needs to return to strong protection of human rights around the world, rather than playing footsie with leaders who attack their own people. Speak up, Pompeo and Trump.
4
Thank you Mr. Kristof! Thank you for traveling the world and listening to women's stories and writing about them with honesty and poignancy week after week and year after year. These women are indeed heroes, and so are you.
Any regime anywhere in the world that seeks to limit the arc of women's lives through religion or government policy is immoral. On judgment day, the men who run these regimes will pay the price for their cruel and inhumane treatment of women. Unfortunately, that does not help these women today in their unbearable suffering simply for being born female.
3
Thank you for this and all your human rights reporting, Mr. Kristoff. Can you please publish - or send me - the prison addresses of these two brave women. I want to write a postcard to each. This postcard idea comes from a book on the 2015 exhibition “@Large: Ai Weiwei on Alcatraz”. The exhibition engaged 900,000 visitors in conversation about human rights and postcard writing to political prisoners. There is an affordable book available, “Ai Weiwei: Yours Truly: Art, Human Rights and the Power of Writing a Letter”, David Spalding, ed.
Thank you, Helen
4
National interest always and forever tops human rights. Read the history of FDR and the Jews during WW2. He knew about the slaughter and did nothing to stop it , not even taking in 900 refugees on the St. Louis. Europe holds it nose and signs contracts with Iran knowing what these people do to their citizens. The US ignores murder and continues to support the Saudis .
3
This one sentence says it all: "If you care about human rights only in countries that you despise, you don’t actually care about human rights."
While these courageous women, who no doubt look nothing like their published photographs now after torture, stand up for women's and children's rights, our current administration sees things in only one dimension. Is it good for me? asks Mr. Trump? If it is, he moves on. If it is not, he complains.
Saudi Arabia has long abused women and their rights with their insulting guardianship program, let alone the many other ways it harms women. Both dictatorships care little about human rights; they care only for the rights of the leaders. But Trump does not see this and will not respond to this column.
3
@Barbara. What did Obama do about it? Obviously nothing.
"If you care about human rights only in countries that you despise, you don’t actually care about human rights."
Donald Trump cares only about himself. I know this has been said by many, many times. But it must be said over and again. Perhaps a real American president could have some influence to help these, and other women in need. We don't have a real president. We have a despicable, disgusting, would-be despot.
Thanks for this piece. I hope it will move those with power to speak out... and, do something.
66
This is really about just 2 countries. It is really about a certain religion. And, if you even attempt to discuss that, you will be vilified. But, Mr. Kristof why don't you show some courage and give it a try.
6
I had been thinking Greta Thunberg, but you're right, these two deserve the Peace Prize more.
1
Better to give the Nobel peace prize to these women than an empty suit like Obama - who proceeded to engage the US in armed action around the world.
7
Since evacuating all innocents from the hell lands is not even remotely possible ,
I think the alternate plan is to find a way to economically suffocate the sadists who run the country ( with a heavy focus on the upscale products they buy from other countries ) .
Euro luxury companies should promote a higher standard for doing business & terminate trade with them & anyone who resells to them .
None of the USA tech companies should do business there either nor with those who would resell to them .
All free people should boycott the sadists AND their trading partners .
A master list of companies doing business with these hell minions should be part of our boycott list .
Note : tech now allows us to trace individual products & resellers Could be identified .
1
The older I get, the more I see a place like a ran as a last bulwarks protecting what is true and right, with these ladies being agitators hell bent on destroying civilization.
The crack back is going to be bloody, once the pendulum swings back towards the rational and evolutionary.
If not already done, someone should start a petition to have the Nobel Peace Prize awarded to these two women.
Mr. Kristoff, will you do it?
2
@Ed
How about Barack Obama gets that ball rolling? He has the international bully pulpit and can even donate the peace prize handed him, astonishingly, only a year into office.
I fully endorse Mr. Kristof's statement, "If you care about human rights only among your enemies, you don’t really care about human rights."
6
Inspiring, Nicholas.
3
Thinking of these two brave women suffering in prison makes me weep. How could anyone torture them so brutally? I pray for a Nobel Peace Prize to shine another light on this unbelievable cruelty and injustice. Our women in Congress need to shout for sanctions!
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@Mickey McGovern
Our men in Congress and in America need to do that, too, *especially* the men. It isn't the job of girls and women to forever fix things men screw up, like basic humanity.
7
The US government's Energy Information Administration forecasts either next year or the following we will be 100% self-sufficient in oil. Ponder that. And we are already net energy exporters as a country. This position is due in large part to our country's long history of scientific ingenuity and hustle, as well as smart policies by both of the previous administrations
So why, may I ask, do we continue to UNCONDITIONALLY back foreign governments who are not aligned with our liberal Western worldviews? We are in the best strategic position we've been in decades and yet Trump couldn't care less about using our leverage to influence other governments to promote human rights and democracy.
"America First", my backside...
4
I suggest Mr. Kristof heads over to SA and Iran and gets them to change their laws to fit his views.
Did not think so.
We cannot enforce our views on them, such as they cannot enforce theirs on us.
The people trapped knew the same as you and I, maybe more, and still went and got themselves in this trouble.
Maybe it's time we all took responsibility for ourselves, instead of crying every time we climb in the rat cage and demand others save us.
2
@AutumnLeaf it's not about "views", it's about human rights...these women knew what they were doing, and in spite of the risks, they bravely did what they thought was right. As far as I know, they are not asking for your help, or any one else's. They simply wanted to do what's right. So @AutumnLeaf, they and we, all have a responsibility to shine a light when abuse and injustice are happening. You may not be brave enough to do it, but they are, thankfully.
5
Again, thank you for bringing the isssue of human rights to the forefront. If you can save one life, you save the world. We cannot give up.
5
Good Bless You, Nicholas Kristof! Reading about such brave, fearless and caring women is an inspiration to us all who live very easy and comfortable lives here in the U.S., trying on a daily basis to stomach the ugliness of the Trump cartel. This column reminds me of one you did a while back, in which you wrote about Catholic nuns who voluntarily travel to some of the most violent, poor and dangerous places on Earth to care for orphans, and victims of war and genocide. Where DOES one get such bravery as these women have??
2
"What the Trump administration doesn’t seem to understand is this: If you care about human rights only in countries that you despise, you don’t actually care about human rights."
You assume that DT et al doesn't "understand." DT and our State Dept. know exactly what they're doing. They are transactional pols, they only care about getting and making deals with "good" dictator buddies, not the other "bad" dictators. No money there.
I have extensively published on human rights violations in Iran as well as on “Islam and human rights.” Iran is decades ahead of the Saudi Kingdom with reference to what women can and can’t do. Iranian women have been breaking taboos since the 1960s. The Ayatollahs have failed to re-Islamize the Iranian cosmopolitanism. Be that as it may, I fully support Hathloul and Sotoudeh receiving “the Nobel together for their courageous advocacy of women’s rights.” Iran already has Shirin Ebadi, who received the 2003 Nobel Peace Prize. And we in the United States have a long way to go in our human rights advocacies on global scale—with or with the disreputable man in the White House.
1
I must now speak up when and where I can.
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Hathloul and Sotoudeh are extraordinary women, extraordinary human beings, who are being punished by autocratic and theocratic regimes for daring to act on behalf of women’s rights/human rights and daring to challenge the autocratic/theocratic thugs in power. I love Kristof’s suggestion that they should be jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. I am a huge fan of Kristof beause he focuses on and shines a journalistic light on injustices around the world that most media simply ignores.
I agree with the criticism of both Iran and Saudi Arabia. However, while women’s rights in both countries is poor, it is far worse in Saudi Arabia. I hate to give MBS any credit since he is power drunk, brutal, incompetent, absolute monarch/autocrat, whose only qualification is being born as a Saudi Prince (we are still talking about absolute monarchies in the 21st century?!?), similar to MBS friend Jared Kushner’s key qualifications - accident of birth and whom he married. But MBS has granted more rights to Saudi women, keys being MBS must get all credit - and will torture/sexually assault/imprison the Saudi dissidents who are the real heroes- and Saudi women, who even post-MBS live in gender Apartheid, started with probably the worst women’s rights in the world, where the right to drive in 2018 is seen as progress (talk about a low bar). Iranian women have always had more rights pre-Revolution (urban women) and even post-Revolution (urban women lost, rural women gained) than Saudi women.
2
NASRIN and LOUJAIN I am shouting your names out in the universe with a heavy heart for your plight. May sanity reign and you be freed.
4
''I know I’ll get notes from people who harrumph that the problem is simply Islam... - Uh, No.
What the problem is that hypocritical leaders in the west supply arms (and other things) to these countries that abuse human rights and their people. They could not carry on that abuse, let alone turn around and use those military assets on their neighbors to gain even more power to abuse.
Stop the flow of harms which leads to abuse of human rights, and demand peace, Demand freedom for all.
6
I never cease to be amazed at the courage of people like these 2 women. They knew they were in for a terrible time, and yet pursued their belief and work. They are the beacons of this terrible world, the real saints among us.
3
''I know I’ll get notes from people who harrumph that the problem is simply Islam... - Uh, No.
What the problem is that hypocritical leaders in the west supply arms (and other things) to these countries that abuse human rights and their people. They could not carry on that abuse, let alone turn around and use those military assets on their neighbors to gain even more power to abuse.
Stop the flow of harms which leads to abuse of human rights, and demand peace, Demand freedom for all .
1
America should step in and "adopt" these so called problem women from these oppressive countries. If those country's don't want brave, strong-willed, individuals we certainly do.
"What the Trump administration doesn’t seem to understand is this: If you care about human rights only in countries that you despise, you don’t actually care about human rights.
Correction. The Trump administration doesn't care about human rights. Period.
2
@Dave - Correction. The Trump administration doesn't care about humans. Period.
“If you care about human rights only in countries you despise, then you do not care about human rights.” As if. The ony things he who cannot be named cares about are money and his ego. Also yearning to “date” his daughter.
1
It all boils down to men oppressing women. Period. It's been happening since humans were Neanderthals and lived in hunter/gatherer societies where male predatory behavior had some value.
We don't live in caves anymore, guys. Evolve.
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@Entera
Actually, both the Neanderthals and all hunter gatherers were more egalitarian societies.
It is the introduction of money - commerce - when one sees the building blocks of misogyny, religions where women were NOT god, slavery, marriage, selling of female children, purposeful harm to females by males.
What the dictators show when they torture and send to prison wonderful women like the two heroes you mention today is fear. Fear of a feminine revolt against their despicable regimes. Only a coward uses waterboarding and lashes women. Cowards.
5
Thank you Mr. Kristof for sharing the plight of these two brave women- who are beacon of hope not only in their own countries but for all the women in developing countries. The deserve the Nobel Peace Prize and more importantly they deserved to be freed immediately. So there is no international forum that can vouch on their behalf and ensure they get justice.
6
I'd like to second the fact that if anyone were to claim that they believe in human rights but refuse to help someone that is part of a country you do not support then you shouldn't consider yourself a human rights activist. A true human rights activist advocates for anyone or everyone who deserves being advocated for. This puts aside the race, gender, sex, political views etc. Regardless, everyone deserves to be treated with respect.
I'd also like to thank Nicholas Kristoff for advocating for these two strong women. Putting their story out to people all around the world is a true act of kindness. Their voices need to heard and their actions need to be recognized.
5
This article draws attention to potential candidates for the Nobel Peace Prize. Let us compare these two women to other candidate.
Donald Trump believes he should be nominated for his less than successful work to denuclearize North Korea.
Loujain al-Hathloul and Nasrin Sotoudeh should be considered for their work on human rights.
Based on the merits of the work done to promote peace, the should be little question about the best nominee.
4
"What the Trump administration doesn’t seem to understand is this: If you care about human rights only in countries that you despise, you don’t actually care about human rights."
Nicholas, you are so right, and this principal is vital! But we must extend it to ourselves, as well. We don't really care about human rights unless we are willing to condemn our own actions that violate human rights, as well as those of our closest allies.
So are we willing to apply this principle to ourselves and to our closest ally in the Middle East, Israel?
The U.S. has recently kidnapped (yes, that is the right word) thousands of children, taking them from their families when there was no evidence that the child was endangered by their families.
Israel's new Nationality Law makes second class citizens of its Palestinian citizens, and it has declined to investigate allegations of war crimes by its soldiers shooting Palestinian protesters.
Anyone who truly cares about human rights will also condemn both the U.S. and Israel for these actions.
5
@Sam McFarland. Somehow you seem to forget Obama’s policies. Kidnapping is an absurd term - ask their parents why they put them in danger.
@Jackson These children were not in danger from their parents, which is why separating them constitutes kidnapping. It was not done for the children's safety, but to discourage others from trying to come to the U.S. Kidnapping it was.
And, the ‘despised’ country will more likely end up complying with international’s standards in human rights than the ‘loved’ one... Kristof definitively likes W. Somerset Maughan’s « Razor’s Edge » quotes.
This piece should awaken our hearts to compassion, words, and strong actions to defend these two heroines and save them from the torture and imprisonment they are suffering. Their families need them. They deserve the Nobel Peace Prize. They need to be set free!
5
Insecure men who deem women property is the problem. They hide inside their religions and pretend that making women wear cloth on their heads is right. in the USA I'm OK with other religions and in this case if the men also wear the same head scarves. In this country we progressives want our women to be respected equivalently to men.
5
Well said Mr. Kristof: "What the Trump administration doesn’t seem to understand is this: If you care about human rights only in countries that you despise [Iran], you don’t actually care about human rights."
2
Why look outside America for women heroes?
Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib are real women heroes in America.
As a black African American Muslim Somali woman and a white Arab Muslim Palestinian American woman in Congess they manage to summon the darkest most evil demons of the American nature. Misogyny, patriarchy, colorism aka racism, white European Judeo- Christian supremacy, capitalism,
,militaris, Islamophobia and xenophobia.
In Shia Muslim Persian Iran women fare much better in every civil secular socioeconomic political and educational sphere than any other Muslim majority Middle Eastern nation except for Turkey. While the nations with the most Muslims- Indonesia, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh have/had female heads of state and/or government.
If international women heroes need to be found then look to Gaza, Yemen, Nigeria, South Sudan, Myanmar and West Bank.
This is not just another human rights issue. This is Women’s Life issues and it is “Muslim Women’s Life Matter” issue. Why feminists in the west bury their heads in the sand when Islamic laws are enabling women’s oppression in most if not all Muslim countries? Why Women’s March leaders here do not condemn it? Where are the “intersectionality” champions? The first decision Ilhan Omar passed in the US congress was to have the right to wear a hijab. No mention of her Iranian or Saudi sisters fights for the right to take it off. Where is Mattel’s Barbie of Masih Alinejad who tirelessly fight against forced hijab or Aayan Hirsi Ali who fights against female genital mutilation as a role models?
They risk their lives for women’s right here in the US. Isolating the case of Nasrin Soutudeh and Loujain al-Hathloul as a far away issue of rogue regime will earn them a head shake and sympathy. What they need is support from women in the west. Muslim and non muslim.
3
Of course it would be politically incorrect for Mr. Kristof to call out Islam as the source of beastly governance, I don't work for a big newspaper, so I'll do it. Indonesia, Turkey, and Yemen are not too bad, but Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, are god awful. Afghanistan, Irak, Egypt, and the Maghreb, show occasional sparks of enlightenment, and may be overcoming Islamic influence. Generally speaking, Islam is a prime source of awful governance. How can anyone, in good conscience deny it?
9
For anyone who thinks these issues are religious in nature, let me tell they are not! They are cultural. Even Muslim folks confuse culture and religion, so those in the west are not alone is this assertion.
As a Muslim convert, i don't confuse the two. I didn't grow up in this religion, i came to it as an adult.
Santa Claus and Easter Bunny don't have much to do with Christianity, they are cultural. If they weren't ALL Christians would have both and they simply don't!
same goes for Islam. It is a religion of 1.8 BILLLION people from almost every nation.
https://gnwp.org/join-gnwp/cora-weiss-fellowship/
The Global Network of Women Peacebuilders offers support and recognition for women like these.
Always appreciate your columns, but criticizing Trump at the start when the evil has been done by the governing bodies of these countries makes one feel that you're suffering from TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome, lol) Those who support Trump are immediately turned off by such comments, and thus you lose half your audience.
2
Blaming Islam is too glib? From where else do these regimes claim the 'moral' authority for their brutality?
4
@Bill
Exactly
3
What can we do to support these women?
2
Thank you. This is why the NYT needs to keep Nicholas Kristof at this newspaper forever. Forever.
2
You want to see a woman with guts? Try Omar.
Second the motion for Nobel's for Sotoudeh and al-Hathloul -- and worldwide shame for Khamenei and bin Salman.
1
A Nobel Peace Prize. Pardons. Examples to help make a better world. Good suggestions. By all means, let’s let those scarred backs, tortured, threatened bodies stand for something. But what?
I agree, this is not just about a religion, but about the hijacking of a religion, for extreme, power, terror purposes. And it is past time that the millions of moderates in Islam put a stop to it. Why would moderates make a pilgrimage to their Holy City held captive by those torturing women, threatening them with rape, prosecuting them for advocating for human rights? Why do they, we of any religion, sit by and watch millions of women forced to see the world through a narrow slit, hostage to male family members for any semblance of modern life, education, freedom.
And once again, where is that touted multilateralism? Planes still fly to these (and other) two countries from the despised West; ambassadors still meet, tourists still travel, spend money, admire the scenery.....prop up governments that treat women as little better than slaves.
A Peace Prize? How about a new UN designation; Pariah State. Get back to me when they are global deserts of travel, exchange, civil interaction of any kind. When their yachts are turned away, their penthouses confiscated, banking conventions ignored. Kind of a .....TimesUp signal. Yeah.
2
Thank you
Perhaps Representatives Omar and Tlaib could take some time off from criticizing Israel to speak up about this outrage.
7
To wait from a response from the US government is futile. Condemnation of abuse of the human rights of women is a task for private citizens and private institutions at this point. We have a long way to go, but we cannot desist. Remember, DO NOT DESIST!Maybe we will get a more ethical response from a different administration in a future that we must hope for.
Thank you, Mr. Kristof, for reporting again on the challenges people face everywhere to attain simple human rights. While your editorials are often hard to read, it's heroic work that deserves an audience. Yours is a sobering and dangerous job, and I know you travel abroad sometimes to ferret out these stories. One need look no further than the grim case of Jamal Khashoggi to know that you probably have a price on your head in some of these places too. Thanks for taking the risks you do to get these stories told.
2
#youngneed2vote
1
These regimes are not only misogynist. They are male supremacist. Just like racist regimes are white supremacist.
5
Anyone was says that "this is just Islam" don't know the Muslims I know.
7
@Panthiest
If it is not,"just Islam," then what is it that causes Islamic countries to treat women as they do. Is it a coincident genetic malformation?
4
It takes a rare type of courage to know that your actions will result in the the type of deprivations that make our prisons look like holiday camps. The type of courage where a woman should never dare challenge a misogynistic tyrant. Pussy Riot also can't stop prodding the snake.
4
Thank you Mr. Kristof for exposing these brutal and criminal governments. It would also help to expose the conduct of European countries (e.g., Germany, France,...) as enablers and backers of such governments. The European countries hypocracy is as shameful as the conducts of those governments. Finally, it would also help to publish the Farsi and Arabic version of your articles for people in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Thanks again.
89
@Shapoor Tehrani - do you really believe that European countries' actions are as shameful? Aren't Iran and Saudi Arabia sovereign nations that make and enact their own laws?
8
@Shapoor Tehrani : May I also suggest that the US President get his fat backside involved as well? You can blame European countries, but what is the US - the supposed most powerful country in the world - doing to help the heinous human rights problems in these countries? Not one thing! What about making the president's son-in-law, BBF with the vile ruler of Saudi Arabia, get involved? So much for Trump trying to have himself nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize?? A horrible joke!
17
@Shapoor Tehrani
Are being serious in saying that European countries (Germany, France ...) are the enablers and backers of Iran and Saudi Arabia? The principal enabler and backer of the Saudi Arabia and its absolute monarchy and Wahhabism (foundational ideology for Al Qaeda and ISIS) is US since FDR, with unconditional love now from Trump administration. Saudi Arabia - the Saud and Wahhabi alliance revived in 1932 after Ottomans had crushed previous rule by this poisonous combination - is a creation of the British and later US for access to Saudi oil. European powers also want access to Saudi oil, weapons purchases and business, but the principal enabler is US - Canada has taken a principled stance against Saudi Arabia. Iran has one of the oldest continuous civilizations in the world - a land of extraordinary beauty, culture, history and accomplished people. It is sadly ruled by theocratic Ayatollahs, Mullahs, thugs,Twelver Shi’a extremism today. But it is even today a complex society with more democracy and women’s rights (especially for rural women) than Saudi Arabia (a low bar) - the US ally. The Europeans were part of P5+1 (originally led by US) to sign Iran nuclear deal - so Iran would stop pursuing nuclear weapons development in exchange for lifting of sanctions - a deal that is far better than any other alternative proposed to date. I assume that you oppose that deal? Which is why you see Europeans as enablers and backers of Iran? More complicated picture than that.
12
I'd like to add my voice in support of these two courageous women, as well as other human rights activists imprisoned in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Jared Kushner should give a call to his buddy, MBS, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia and urge him to release Loujain and other women activists - it would earn him good will.
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@VGD
Indeed, it would be a mitzvah.
10
Brave women in a despotic and insecure male world, sexually repressed societies, Trumpian hypocrites where cruelty is sold so cheap that human rights are trampled over and over again, all in the name of an all-loving God. And not a peep from our own vulgar despot in-chief, who enjoys practicing cruelty gratis (just because he can). Iran is a theocracy, but illegitimate in it's pursuit of scapegoats for their own irrelevancy. And the Saudis, exporters of Wahabism to ISIS-like fanatics, now with an assassin as it's ruler (prince Salman), a close friend of Trump. How awful is that?
5
Thank you for shining a light on these disgusting barbarities. Our country's enablements of and excuses for Saudi Arabia's many crimes against humanity, while on the other hand condemning Iran, is hypocritical beyond belief.
5
Your paper could organize a petition for their freedom, signed world wide. Millions would sign.
7
Yesterday I heard from a local postal clerk about someone who tried to send a present to a woman, a doctor, who had befriended her in Saudi Arabia. She tried 3 times to send the package, and it came back 3 times. It turns out that you can't send a package to a woman in Saudi Arabia, you have to send it to a male relative. Is the country silly, or sick?
6
Is there a reason to state the ages of the heroes??
@Rebecca Hawley
It is customary to state the ages of those in news stories.
2
“Hathloul and Sotoudeh should win the Nobel together for their courageous advocacy of women’s rights before rival dictators who share one thing: a cruel misogyny.”
What better way to give these two women recognition, and shame the two countries that harm them: the Nobel Peace Prize.
5
One thing is clear: religion was the apple in Eden.
More deviltry has been committed in the name of God than in the name of the Devil. The sooner we can winnow superstition from our human genome, the better the chances of our planet to become an
Earthly facsimile of "Heaven."
5
@William Burgess Leavenworth
This is a species problem.
Homo sapiens are by nature social animals and for tens of thousands of years human societies have had to rely on varying degrees of societal cohesiveness for survival.
Religion can be viewed, in its most basic sense, as “command and control” technology for community / society management.
Yes…it may be true that: “More deviltry has been committed in the name of God than in the name of the Devil” but I would say that is the case because “religion” has had, more thousands of years, it’s hand involved in direct societal command and control than…say…the natural sciences, a relatively “new” mode for explaining the world and yet a mode that still manages to drift into evil alternative command and control doctrines such as eugenics.
1
Lets see, Nobel peace prize for these women who are enduring torture and life in prison for trying to help others or one for Trump who thinks it is a prize for preening?
Wow, tough choice!
Thankfully, the much-hyped summit with Kim Jong un was fruitless.
1
Using religion to abuse and subjugate is not limited to only one part or one person in this world. This sadly is an extreme example but all to common.
Our founding fathers knew that the two worst institutions invented by humans were organized government and organized religion. When they get together have/had do/did more harm to humans than any other group.
3
Thank you for championing these two brave women and their families. It is a tragedy that they are being punished. It is also horrifying to see Trump and Co. defend Salman and Khomenei. What a travesty! And Trump put himself for a Nobel Peace Prize not knowing that most of the world doubled over in laughter when he did.
The POTUS and his administration aren't as bad as the Saudis and the Iranians but they still support all the wrong values and actions. Trump, of course, has no ethics or morality, just narcissistic self-interest and also has no interest in human rights, not even in his own country.
You must keep up the fight to support these women, Nick, and do all you can to get the international community to pressure both country's leaders. Those who pray, this is a good time to pray for a miracle.
Thanks, sir, for your continued excellent work.
6
What women in these cultures are also bravely challenging is "male supremacy." The word "misogyny" describes a type of prejudice/hatred towards women as a class. But these women are battling more than bigotry. They are battling religions/governments/institutions that, by definition, are male supremacist. Male supremacy is a term for how power is defined, distributed and maintained.
6
Mr. Kristof, thank you so much for using your talents and opportunities to defend those who cannot defend themselves. Looking at the broad scope of your articles, you're a hero too, giving your newspaper space to defend the oppressed.
Our governments and the people of the world need to wake up to the fact that the treatment of women in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and some other mid-east countries is bald-faced SLAVERY. Let's not mince words, or delude ourselves that slavery exists only in dark corners in our world. The treatment of women in these and a few other countries are as if the US was still flogging black people in the southern states for looking the wrong way at a white person. It is grossly repugnant. The nations of the world should ostracize these countries. This treatment of women is NOT culture or religion, it is men indulging in sadism against women. When we peel back the thin layer of excuse for torturing, imprisoning and flogging women, all we find underneath is sadism wearing a grotesque garment of righteousness. The authorities and many men in these countries are cowards and bullies.
3
@Anne Sherrod
This treatment of women is NOT culture or religion, it is men indulging in sadism against women."
Ms. Sherrod, you are denying the obvious. Islam is at the heart of the problem. Islam provides the,"grotesque garment of righteousness."
2
@Heckler
And not just Islam. How about the Christian Spanish Inquisition, the Christian Salem Witch Trials or any other religion-based form of oppression and control?
Yes!
2 women heros.
Silenced along with millions around the world right now.
God help them all.
Me Too
6
It is all well and good to expose the differential interest in human rights from our leaders depending on the villain. However, will you ever turn your attention to the so-called human rights community that exhibits the same differential interest in Palestinian human rights depending on whether the villain is Israel or either the PA or Hamas.
The story of these two brave women reminded me of the torture Alice Paul and many other US suffragettes suffered while fighting for the right to vote in this country over a hundred years ago. Alice and her colleagues were imprisoned on trumped up charges, then violently force fed while on hunger strike in prison. All the while President Wilson and the US congress did nothing to stop the kangaroo courts and the torture. Violent misogyny is by no means limited to Islam. But the US suffragettes won the vote (for white women, while black women had to wait another 45 years). I pray that brave Loujain and Nasrin will be able to help transform their societies. Shame on the cowardly, hateful men who jailed them.
91
@Susanna sorry Susanna ,its not a gender issue.But what is incontrovertible is that these two ladies are real heroes who need everyone's support.
1
@T.R.Devlin
Sorry, T.R., it most certainly is a gender issue.
5
These two women did not have to do what they did.
They suffer for it.
They also represent the best that humanity has to offer.
123
Great story of two courageous women, Nick! Wish we had them in our national governing structure, instead of the garbage pseudo-president we're stuck with presently.
3
There are so many states and individuals who recognize Human Rights 'INO' (in name only) that it might be a good idea for everyone to be aware of what this means.
Start by carefully reading the UN Declaration:
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
and then consider how it is implemented, also in your own country. States with the inflexible old men's syndrome wherever you look. Sacred books are misused as a fig leaf for discrimination and terror. The only universal right seems to be the tolerance of Personal Enrichment by power-hungry sociopaths.
As a joke: take a look at how politics in the United States deals with Human Rights as soon as it does not fit into their political street.
How to deal with these blatant violations of human dignity if your own leaders make a mess of it:
Shaming Shaming Shaming in all international bodies. Take their veto rights off the table, because as long as the offenders or their tolerators can veto a conviction or punishment, nothing will ever happen.
Awarding a Noble Prize to the victims is a public form of shaming, so do it!
3
How can we help?
2
@Terry G It seems that the best way to help is by nominating them for the Nobel Peace Prize which they absolutely deserve - BOTH of them.
4
Thank you, Mr. Kristof.
3
Where are all the left wing activists pushing the BDS movement against Israel pushing for a similar action against Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries that oppress over half of their population?
8
Where are Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib on this?
Omar and Tlaib are in a position to mobilize women--especially Muslim women--worldwide and take up the cause of Sotoudeh and al-Hathloul, which is so much more worthwhile than their usual trite talking points.
When Tlaib decries Islamophobia in the Democratic Party, is she tacitly defending Iran's and Saudi Arabia's assaults on these women's fight for human rights?
Omar and Tlaib need to develop a more coherent position on Islam by forthrightly acknowledging the abuses within it.
5
@MS Pointing out Islamophobia in our political parties is the same as tacitly defending Iran's and Saudi Arabia's human rights violations? What a ridiculously false equivalency. In that case, I can argue that people who attacked Omar for voicing dissent with Israeli government policies tacitly approve of that government's abuses toward Arab and Palestinian populations.
@MD
The observation was stated as a question, which you pointedly misinterpret--it makes a big difference.
The accusation of "false equivalency" is the first line of defense of neophytes.
The point is a simple one. Omar and Tlaib are Muslim women. Presumably, they know something about the subject. If they were serious about fighting for human rights, they would align themselves more visibly and powerfully with Sotoudeh and al-Hathloul in their fight for Islamic women's rights. Iran and Saudi Arabia are incontrovertibly guilty of many more human rights abuses than Israel vis-a-vis Palestine, an entity that has consistently rejected a two-state solution.
Besides, why fetishistically criticize Israel, when it is fighting for its right to exist, unlike many nations that are guilty of far greater abuses.
2
This coddling of Saudi Arabia must stop. American must stand for something greater than supporting their brutal, murderous, misogynistic leaders. We export oil now. We have enough. Why do we keep propping up this government?!?
8
What can we do?
@Ellen Akins
Pressure your Senators and Congresspersons to speak out against this misogyny publicly. Lobby to have them write to the governments involved, as well as to Human Rights NGOs. Write a letter to the editor. There are a number of very active women's rights organizations based in the NYC area.
Torturing Loujain al-Hathloul is a criminal act by Mohammed bin-Salman Al Saud. He is a coward flogging women and killing and cutting up Washington Post journalist Kashoggi. He should be condemned by Trump, not chatted up by Kushner.
Nasrin Sotoudeh’s voice and advocacy on behalf of women and children should not be silenced by the strongman Khamenei.
With all of their ill-gained power, these tyrants aren’t happy until they crush these women who fight on behalf of the oppressed, yet these women’s spirits are indomitable.
131
A number of people have asked how to advocate for these women. I would suggest starting with joining Amnesty International. https://www.amnesty.org/en/search/?issue=1626
2
Westerners praising these two women for the courage and condemning the brutal regimes that persecute them will not move those regimes one inch. Much more effective would be loud condemnations from Muslims world wide demonstrating that this barbarity has nothing to do with Islam and perhaps shaming these so-called leaders of Islam into behavior that proves Islam is not a religion that suppresses women.
8
@serban
Good luck with that proposal.
2
Any country that allows flogging is a despicable country.
2
@Linda
I would differentiate between government and country. It's government's that allow inhumane punishments in their criminal justice systems.
@Linda
I question that notion. Would you rather take 10 lashes and walk free, or spend years in jail? Give me those lashes, please.
1
Dictatorships have always worked diligently to suffocate human rights in their ceaseless efforts to keep their subjects in line. Punishment and imprisonment dissuades all dissent except by the boldest and bravest.
4
@DENOTE MORDANT : Beware, America! It seems that your president admires many of the dictators around the world! Hold on hard to democracy and vote BLUE in 2020!
2
Thanks for reporting on these cases. The world needs to see this. The Saudis are and awful regime and the GOP needs to wake up to this.
8
Trump isn’t responsible for enforcing human rights laws in countries round the world, your got it all wrong.
The president is responsible for enforcing the laws in the United States, to put this on him is a stretch, Even for kristof
@There
Yes I remember this argument. It was also used during the Holocaust. These were German Jews in a foreign country.
4
I believe the more accurate term to describe what women in these cultures are bravely challenging is "male supremacy." The word "misogyny" describes a type of prejudice/hatred towards women as a class. But these women are battling more than bigotry. They are battling religions/governments/institutions that, by definition, are male supremacist. Male supremacy is a term for how power is defined, distributed and maintained. Male supremacist institutions exist in both the East and West and both men and women participate in "separate but equal" male supremacist institutions, known in the West by the euphemism "Biblical Complimentarianism."
6
Thank you for talking about this. Only wish more of the Media would. Now we'll hear endlessly about the school bribes and everything else will be forgotten.
3
The USA might have pressured Iran to treat its citizens better in a combined effort with the international partners in the nuclear weapons agreement, but we reneged and have no partners. We might pressure Saudi Arabia to treat its citizens better if we actually care, but in the most obvious case, we have shown that they can literally get away with murder without our objection.
It’s hard to regain moral authority after you give it away.
8
Protests in Iran last year resulted in dozens of dead civilians and hundreds arrested and tortured. Iran is a police state - as is Saudi Arabia. Both countries are barbarians at the gate - Saudi Arabia still conducts public be-headings.
The US has very little, if any control, over either country - they do what they want to do.
You write the current Administration did not forcefully criticize Saudi Arabia.
It pales next to President Obama's capitulation and removal of sanctions against Iran - a terrorist nation that funds Hamas and Hezbollah.
We need to remove ourselves from the Middle East - Syria, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia...they're all insidious, corrupt, unstable countries with fractured tribes and religions.
The US cannot change the course of destiny for these countries, and has failed miserably trying to do so.
2
"What the Trump administration doesn’t seem to understand is this: If you care about human rights only in countries that you despise, you don’t actually care about human rights."
Picking winners and losers in the Middle East is tortured morality, as we see here, because how can you morally critique one barbaric punishment for a woman in Iran and let the one in Saudi Arabia pass?
Who knows what prompts the courage of these women? I know for sure I could never bear up under such punishment.
Nicholas Kristof, you are a national treasure, not only because you keep us informed about what's really going on in the world, and why it matters. But you seem to recognize that by recognizing these brave women you are elevating them over the cruelty of their governments.
I hope you're right about the Nobel. In the era of rising autocracy and suppression of dissidents, it would be nice to see the Prize Committee pick the objects of autocratic wrath be rewarded and lauded around the world.
10
The courageous power in these women's
stories has infinitely amplified the timid
cowardice of our Republican legislators,
afraid to follow their hearts in exchange
for status and greed.
5
Mr Trump only cares about those who support him, there isn't a human right he won't walk on to get his way. Americans are going to have to stand up and speak out, not only for these women but for every person who is denied equality because of someone's religious beliefs. That includes every country and every religion. There are too many religions and governments around the world who are willing to sacrifice citizens as collateral damage in their struggle to maintain control. We are all human beings.
6
Unimaginable that this is happening in the 21st century.
5
Loujain al-Hathloul and Nasrin Sotoudeh should receive both the Nobel Peace Prize as well as the UN Human Rights Prize during the same year, in 2019, to show that the world is united in opposing the brutality perpetuated by the butchers in Riyadh and Tehran.
It is also time for the US to establish our own American Human Rights Prize the MLK Prize for Human RIghts. The US Congress should vote to honor these women by making them the first recipients of this newly instituted prize for their contributions to mankind. It will be a good antidote to the poisonous disgrace that Trump has brought to the reputation of the United States and reestablish the US as the land of the free and a beacon of hope and human rights.
And while taking such a bold move to stand for true American values maybe it is time to abolish capital punishment a barbaric practice that puts us in the same league of human rights violators as...Iran and Saudi Arabia.
9
Let us imagine for a bit that the US regains our courage, our heart, and installs a State Department that inspires fear in the hearts of dictators and theocrats the world over...a State Department that refuses to ally with criminal despots.
That America would stop supplying the murderous criminals who lead in Saudi Arabia, and other such places, with weapons and with votes in the UN.
If we forcefully mandated that the US would only fully support those nations who were at least working toward our own ideas, including the rule of law, democracy, and freedom of speech and assembly, then America would be what it once was, a place of peace and hope.
That would mean we finally get out of the Middle East, lock, stock and weapons contracts.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
2
These women are indeed worthy of attention. And while one can criticize DJT fairly, where are the chronically outspoken voices of AOC and Omar here?
5
I think Trump has made clear that he wasn't going to get involved in how other countries treat their own citizens and that all he cares about are America's interests. So to say that his administration doesn't understand that it's not really concerned about human rights sounds wrong - I think they understand it very well. If anything, it is their supporters/defenders who refuse to understand that our President is fundamentally an amoral CEO in chief who only cares about dollars and cents.
4
Let the Me Too movement focus their efforts on these two heroic women. This is what brutal oppression of women looks like. Let their be protests in our streets, let their be sharing of outrage with Iranian and Iraqi women. Let them know of our support.
The Middle East is still stuck in the Middle ages when it comes to treatment of women.
2
Any reader who wishes to take action on behalf of these two courageous women can sign a petition/ write an email to the king of Saudi Arabia to show that the world supports them and their cause and is not indifferent to their bravery and suffering.
Just search their names on Amnesty International!
1
Very important. I can’t get the image of Jared Kushner strolling along with the Saudi Prince by his side. But it’s nothing new. Every administration has coddled tyrants when the US needs their money.
5
@Mr. Little
the Family Trump WANTS their money.
USA does not NEED Saudi money
3
Why do Men treat Women like this ? Because they can. They are unfettered and the imprimatur Of “ Religion “ gives them an excuse, and semi- plausible authority, within their own cultures. This is merely a tiny, tiny fly in the ointment, for SA. They have plenty of Cash to spread around, no blinders are more effective than actual Gold. As for Iran, they are poor and desperate, and determined to remain the same, in perpetuity. Torturing Women is a splendid entertainment, an example for others, a boot on the throat of the population. My heart weeps for these Women, my mind screams : Not Here. NEVER.
7
@Phyliss Dalmatian. Thank you for your comment.
I sometimes hesitate to comment myself, because I doubt my own ability to identify all of the subtle nuances of issues. I feel compelled to comment today. I can’t help but make connections between this oped, the one on SCOTUS and religious rights and the one on gay tolerance in flyover country — plus the daily media accounts on 45 and our Republican congressional leaders. I think we inch forward in some ways, but I am very worried about how our “institutions” are moving us backward. I don’t have a lot of expendable income, but just went to the Amnesty International website and made a contribution. I contribute to other democratic causes as well and sometimes participate in local demonstrations. And I vote, every election. Please, everyone, understand what is at stake and VOTE!
In the past, I’ve rolled with the punches when my candidate or “side” of an argument lost. I figured the system was working as intended and compromise is required. Today it seems that monied interests have gained such unlimited power, both legally (at least appearance wise) - through Citizens United and Voter Rights decisions - and illegally, that we are in danger of losing all resemblence of the democratic republic our founders envisioned. My vote is my last personal finger hold.
2
MDH : just a wonderful reply. I sometimes let my anger and frustration get the better of me. If you vote, you are helping. Encourage your friends, relatives and neighbors. Vote Democratic, for our Planet and actual, born Children.
2
Thank you for your courage and shining a light on the abuses that no one else writes about. It's sometimes unglamorous- note how many comments are on the college bribery column- but infinitely worthy. Only light can drive out darkness
2
There are amazing women around the world, standing up for what is right and just, and paying a huge personal toll for it.
They are fighting for human rights, decency, against misogyny and racism.
And then there are the 53% of white women who voted for Trump. A man who stands for all that so many others stand against.
2
I've often thought that, in a sane country, Nick Kristof's columns would headline the opinion section and garner thousands of hear hear comments, while the latest senile rantings of our president would be scrapped under "Other News." We'd rally, rise up as a nation, against these repressive misogynistic regimes, refuse their oil even at great sacrifice, protect our own vulnerable citizens as aggressively as they persecute theirs, back it all up with a ferocious military utterly impatient with ugly little despots spouting nuclear threats or trim, neatly bearded, sadistic creeps floating enormous yachts on a multi-trillion-dollar oil slick.
Such is not the case. The evil embodied horribly in the suffering of these two astounding women is the legacy of this indifference, and it is ours.
All ours.
2
"If you care about human rights only in countries that you despise, you don’t actually care about human rights." Yes.
Thank you so much for this inspiring piece about these incredible women!
5
SO, Nick, you think that "...the Trump administration doesn’t seem to understand (that if) you care about human rights only in countries that you despise, you don’t actually care about human rights." do you? I think this administration understands this point quite well, and in truth simply does not care a whit about human rights anywhere, not even in the U.S. This double standard is a clear way to broadcast that stance to thinking people.
2
I agree Hathloul and Sotoudeh should win the Nobel together. Outrageous government behavior should not be condoned. Iran and Saudi should be ashamed and the world more cognizant of their behavior.
4
Thank you, Mr. Kristof, for bringing to light the tireless advocacy work carried out by Mrs. Stoudeh and Ms. Hathloul under dangerous circumstances in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Let us hope they win the Nobel Peace Prize, and are allowed to leave their wretched homelands. Their voices need to be heard. They can be better advocates from outside of their countries.
11
Good for Kristoff! He always fights on the side of the angels. I wish more Op-Ed writers had half the empathy that he possesses.
13
The bravery of these young women is both breathtaking and heartbreaking. When (not IF) a new administration is elected in 2020, is there anything we can do to help them or their families?
4
This was, this is and will be the policy of the USA to strongly and harshly criticized violations of human right by states hostile to the USA, and for the friendly states which are doing the same, very little or no critics at all. President Trump is just keeping, in his own way, that policy alive.
4
The patriarchy and religious political hegemony dies hard. A worthwhile life's work would be to ensure that both do.
12
Thank you for this important piece, and for shining a light where there is so much darkness...
23
Very well written. Great proposal. They deserve it
14
Unfortunately, there's enough shame and blame in this excellent piece to circle the globe many times over. Too many times over.
Fortunately, there's even more, yet still not enough, outrage that's now being channeled into the courage to speak out against these ungodly practices.
The Nobel Peace Prize can't come soon enough. Meanwhile, it's up to the rest of us to shine our own blinding light into eradicating this inhuman cruelty forever.
Thank you, Mr. Kristof.
22
Trump has made his view of human rights quite clear. His favorite world leaders, by his own words and actions, are Putin, Kim Jung-un and Bin Salman. He also seems to like Xi, mostly because he respects (and envies) the power he wields.
Until there are true consequences for the cruelty and torture conducted by these regimes, this behavior will continue. By mindlessly blowing up the Iranian nuclear treaty, Trump gave up whatever leverage he had with Iran. The Saudis are another story altogether. He has significant leverage but chooses not to use it. This is yet another example of Trump's extraordinary moral and ethical failure.
14
You have to be careful here Mr. Krisof. I am talking in general and not only re this case.
If war crimes or crimes against humanity happen in other countries that a major of the world can agree upon by all means protest, even intervene with a multi lateral force.
However if a country chooses to live in the Middle Ages, ie women or any other group are suppressed, are second class citizens, can't be educated, can't vote etc. there is nothing we can do about it. If we intervene, we end up in a situation like Iraq or Afghanistan.
In these situations the best we can do is offer asylum to any person that fits the above discrimination.
7
I agree we cannot ‘intervene’, but we should not be giving them our total support...as we do in the case of Saudi Arabia. Both SA & Iran have barbaric governments & are fighting proxy wars. We should not support either of them!
3
@Mary Sampson-Thank you for your reply. Agreed, when inhumanity can be agreed upon by a majority of the world, we should intervene not because countries have Middle Ages standards on how people should live.
Certainly the barbaric proxy wars by SA and Iran have reached that threshold with civilian atrocities.
1
It seems the Nobel committee will have a difficult choice deciding between these women and Donald Trump to receive the Peace Prize. That's why the committee gets paid the big kroner.
Whoever put forward Trump's name for the Nobel Peace Prize has made a mockery of the real contributions and sacrifices so many have made for a more peaceful and just world.
When Kissinger and Le Duc Tho were awarded the Peace Prize for negotiating the Paris Peace Accords, Tho knew that it was not going to lead to actual peace and respectfully declined the award. Kissinger, however, was only too happy to collect another trophy.
10
@Ronald Aaronson
Yes, and another fallout from the Kissinger peace prize was that they amazing Harvard mathematician turned song writer, Tom Lehrer, stopped writing songs because life was no longer "funny." I long for his return in the Age of Trump.
15
@Susan I loved his "Alma Mahler" song.
4
thank you for your excellent piece on the desperate plight of these two women, is there any move on the part of the EU to intervene or pressurize the governments to release them, particularly in Iran where the EU is still support the peace deal?
7
@Trish
The EU countries along with some others are putting pressure on the Saudi government to free Loujain al-Hathloul, the Saudi woman, along with 9 others with her that have been tortured as well as criminally charged.
There is also international condemnation that has been expressed for the sentence of Nasrin Sotoudeh.
While international pressures are good and needed, real and lasting change can only come from within the country with more women and men taking a stand.
3
I'm taking a course that uses the "Great Decisions" text put out each year by the American Foreign Policy Association. Yesterday, was week two, "The Middle East."
One of the most salient points brought up regarding US policy in the region was America's history of picking favorites, or "winners and losers."
Donald Trump's clear preference for Saudi Arabia in all matters results in utter hypocrisy when it comes to human right.
Two women suffer physical and mental torture for their courage in challenging the treatment of women by their governments, but the US only condemns the "country it despises."
The US no longer advocates for universal values, just parochial preferences. Thank you Nicholas Kristof for recognizing the work of these women, so threatening to their autocratic leaders that they're tortured and imprisoned.
They would certainly make a good combo Nobel Peace Prize, truly fitting given the president's obvious lust for that prize himself.
I can't think of a duo more deserving of the prize for their courage in challenging injustice towards women comprising half the citizens of these repressive regimes.
40
Thank you, thank you , thank you for keeping these women's sacrifice, torture and imprisonment in the news. These are dark times and it is journalists like yourself that shine a light into the darkness. I am grateful.
26
Thank you Mr. Kristof, for exceptional writing about these exceptional women, Nasrin and Loujain.
The contrast between these two and the current mothers and parents involved in the college admissions scandal is heartbreaking. I am not involved in social media, but those who are might want to send copies of this article to the indicted parents. Maybe it might occur to them there are more important ways to take care of the children and to spend a spare half a million dollars if they get hundreds or thousand of copies of this article.
15
My sentiments exactly as those below ... many thanks for bringing this to my attention. God bless them.
10
Thanks for highlighting these two brave women. The news media too often focus on the bad folks among us. Inspiring to read about and know there still are real heroes out there.
13
Thank you, Mr.Kristof for focusing our attention where It should be. we should be celebrating these heroines and realizing that courageous women are sacrificing to make a better life for women and children in their countries.We spend way too much time focused on politicians who behave badly.These women inspire us-I hope they can get the word that other women admire them and see them as the brighter future we hope for.
16
Very likely, there is nothing that any group, Amnesty International, PEN, or other can do to save Nasreen Sotoodeh. President Trump will not be sending in the CIA to save her. We send in the CIA only to depose the democratically elected, at least we did that in 1953.
Therefore the question before us concerns what can the USA as nation do that on a decades-long scale improve the chances for positive change in Iran?
My answer: End sanctions against Iran, recognize that the P5 + One agreement was the most positive policy action taken and Trump's opposition to it the most contradictory action possible.
Long ago, Iran had the best possibility for becoming a relatively advanced nation of perhaps any. We, the USA, saw to it that progress toward that goal, was to be ended, doing so by deposing the democratically elected Mohammad Mosaddeq. His crime against America? Proposing to gain more control over Iranian oil resources.
Not a chance of a decades-long restoration before 2021 if then.
In the meantime, all we can do is admire the courage of brave women symbolized by Nasrin Sotoodeh, a quality notable for its absence in the American Republican Party.
I end by copying Mehran Arbab's closing line that I see below: "There is not much daylight between the regimes in Riyadh, Tehran and Washington when human dignity is concerned."
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
25
Nasreen Sotoodeh has long been fighting for human rights, and she has given much of her life to defend the rights of Iranian people and to stand alongside other Iranian political and social activists. I do not pretend to speak for her, or for her brave husband and children, but I suspect that she will not want to be associated with the Trump State Department's self serving defense of her. Trump and every single member of his corrupt administration have actively undermined human rights everywhere on the globe. There is not much daylight between the regimes in Riyadh, Tehran and Washington when human dignity is concerned.
54
This is a subject worth writing and reading about. Thank you Mr. Kristof for giving these two brave women a voice. Their names should indeed be shouted from the mountains. They need as much support themselves as they have fought to give to the oppressed, abused and neglected around them. Please don't ever stop writing about them.
79
I can't think of anyone better deserving of the Nobel Prize than these twin stars of the east, Nasrin Sotoudeh and Loujain al-Hathloul. Women in the Middle-East have been oppressed for centuries. The American presidents have always been the defenders of the world's oppressed, except for Mr. Trump. But Nasrin and Loujain must be endowed with an innate strength that makes them independent of any help from the likes of Trump, MBS, or Ayatullah Khamenei. The sacrifices made by Nasrin and Loujain will inspire countless others to pursue the struggle against inequality of the sexes throughout the world.
79
Power to the 2 women in Saudi Arabia and Iran who have stood up. And Zi bet there are other women. They have to be terribly brave. The world run by men must end. It’s time for women to take over. Thank you both for stepping up and pushing back. Change doesn’t happen unless you disagree.
25
How can we advocate for and publicize Nima and Mehraveh's situations? Please add this information to the article if possible. They need to know how much their sacrifices and courage are admired.
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@Laurie
You can contact Amnesty International for information regarding addresses of prisoners locked up in jails all over the world.
Also, contribute money to support the organization so they are able continue their mission to help people like Nima and Mehraveh gain freedom from such deplorable conditions.
33
Any advice on the best way to advocate the Nobel Prize for both women?
Perhaps Mr Kristof’s article is enough. I feel helpless after reading this story, yet inspired by their vision and courage.
69
Sotoudeh, a lawyer, makes a career of fighting noble, but seemingly futile human rights battles. She was imprisoned for 11 years in 2010 and released after 3. At the time, her children were 10 and 3.
Immediately after her release from prison, Sotoudeh renewed the demonstrations and activities that landed her in prison. So it is hardly surprising that she's in prison again.
Unlike most human rights activists, Sotoudeh could have left Iran upon her release from prison if she had just packed her bags. The government would probably have paid her airfare to get rid of her. She's not like the American prisoners who Iran won't let go of.
Because of her activities, Sotoudeh's husband is now facing serious charges himself. And she stands to spend much time in one of Iran's worst prisons, probably in solitary confinement.
Sotoudeh's main causes include protesting the death penalty, the mandatory head scarf, and standing up for Kurdish rights. She probably could not find any more futile causes than those. Fighting futile, though noble causes, is clearly her specialty.
Sotoudeh could long since have joined the millions of Iranians living abroad and could have fought her battles from afar. She probably would have gotten less attention But anybody knowledgeable already knows that head scarves, the death penalty and Kurdish rights are among the many Iranian human rights violations. She may get the Nobel Prize. But that's not likely to change anything in Iran.
17
@michjas Are you criticizing her because she chooses to fight extreme injustices about which others do not seem to care?
Are you criticizing her for putting her life on the line, and not fleeing to safety?
It's not clear what your point is.
95
@michjas- Iran and the USA, much in common. Will protesting against Donald Trump accomplish much if anything? Probably not.
True, women are not flogged in the USA, but they certainly get verbal lashing from the President.
And all that Trump accomplishes as concerns Iran is making life much worse for the Iranian population at large. Sanctions make the cost of living more and more difficult, one sanction at a time.
And will the President of the USA be telling us that this woman is a heroine to be admired by all of us, safe at home? Not a chance as he shows by his embrace of Saudi Arabia where women have it even worse than in Iran.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
19
@michjas Could it be that this woman loves HER country and wants to change HER COUNTRY. It takes much courage to stand up to the system from within.
Your suggested alternative would have been for her to join the growing line of refugees who are being refused entry or asylum by this administration. I am not even sure she would have been given a visa.
18
Trump has business interests in Saudi Arabia. He has no business interests in Iran. The explanation is as simple as that.
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@Gordon Bronitsky
Trump represents the interests of Israel, the big oil, and the US industrial-military complex regarding the Middle East, including Iran and Saudi Arabia. He is abusing the cause of Ms. Sotoodeh for his purpose.
2
Thank you Mr Kristol. Nominating these two courageous and mistreated women for the Nobel Peace Prize would help shine a light and send a clear message to the despotic regimes that stifle the justice these women seek. I certainly hope the disfunction that was plaguing the Nobel Committee has been resolved and they can focus on the many important people making contributions during these perilous times.
39
Extremely powerful writing, Nicholas Kristof. As a member of several human rights organizations, I am appalled at the treatment of these two wonderful women. The Middle East will continue to be mired in poverty and ignorance until women are granted full rights. Countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia will never reach their true potential until they unleash the talent, energy and innovation of women.
Nasrin and Loujain represent the best of their generation. They are the type of women the Middle East needs to start movements towards democracy. We, those who live in the West, must support them by writing letters and holding public events. We must be their voices and their struggle must become our struggle. For the sake of the world, we cannot allow their light to be extinguished by tyrants.
161
Thank you for bringing these amazing, heroic women to our attention. Let's hope some 2020 candidates take more enlightened and aggressive positions on human rights than the current administration. Our soft power is enhanced by America being in the lead morally, and people's lives are significantly impacted by our efforts.
27
Thank you Mr. Kristof for this piece. Shame on Mr. Trump and the US government for not speaking up for these women and so many others who are unjustly jailed. The Nobel Prize, which both deserve, may be a start on bringing international pressure on the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia to free them. However, the international community has to continue to keep this issue in the front pages if we are to give these heroines a chance.
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@DD
Trump isn't speaking up unless there's current or future money in it for him and his family...
2
@DD
Shame on Mr. Trump? are you kidding?
Sociopaths have no shame or guilt! Shame on the American people who are silently witnessing atrocities perpetrated by our "ally" Saudi Arabia on their own citizens and in Yemen. We give them weapons and instruments of government and we are co-responsible for their rotten, lawless (literally), dehumanizing wahhabism.
3
Mr.Kristof appropriately addresses an ongoing issue with the current administration. While I applaud this editorial, I would suggest that the current President of the USA and his administration could care less about human rights, whether they be in Iran, Saudi Arabia or elsewhere in the world. Given the comments and actions of The Donald, The Ivanka, The Kushner and others towards the death of Jamal Khashoggi, it will be no different with the cases cited by Kristof. Rather MBS and the Saudis appear to be viewed as a cash stream for the Trumps and Kushners. Sad realities for the living of these days …
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@pel
Maybe Trump* et al 'could care less' about human rights, but not significantly less.
1
@pel
Actually, Trump* et al, could NOT care less.
@pel "Couldn't care less" I presume.
It's so sad to see so few comments on this article while any article saying the same thing about trump that's been said in this and other papers for two years, elicits hundreds of comments. It's indicative of how the things a lot of women stand up for aren't viewed as important by society, at large, as even minute stupidities uttered by trump.
In a grotesque way, that gives trump a win.
78
@Marlowe I totally agree with you; it is very disparaging to see how few people are compelled to comment on this issue compared to others. It does show a real lack of passion for human rights. People here aren't directly affected by it so, they can go on with their life, not noticing it.
6
@Marlowe, I wonder if there are so relatively few comments because the article says it all very clearly. Not much to add. That happens every once in a while here.
4
Instead of celebrating a potential Nobel, we should take the time to reflect on the draconian consequences these brave women will endure. It is wrong. Adopting a moral relativist approach--Who are we to judge?--does a tremendous disservice to their sacrifice. We need to criticize and challenge those who occupy the "bully pulpit" in these countries. Those who sentence these women--who overwhelming suffer from this patriarchy.The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
61
One feels kind of helpless when they read of such women and I agree with the comments below in thanking Mr. Kristof bringing their struggle to light. I remember doing a web search once to make a donation to an islam based or muslim based women's organisation as a way to help women in muslim states. I was surprised when nothing of consequence came up in the search, just a general islamic charity for war torn hot spots where muslims were involved. This was about four years ago, things may have changed. I think since that time there is a foundation under the name of Malala that has been formed to help muslim women in terms of education for girls but I think more muslim based women's organisations are needed. In the meantime, one can contribute to the various human rights organisations internationally.
40
@Karena
Just FYI, I did a new search for International Muslim Women's Charities, there is more in terms of organizations than what I found four years ago but they mainly concentrate on western countries' muslim women's issues and advocacy. What is needed I believe is an international organization that provides direct aid and advocacy to women in muslim countries or organizations from within those countries that do the same thing that one can support but mayb from within they are not permitted to organize. As for Malala, the Malala Fund organization came into effect last year.
13
Is there any way to get involved in advocating for these women? Are any governments taking any action on their behalf? I have a hard time just going about my business after reading this.
185
@Pundette
I echo your question about how to help advocate for these women--and others like them. I don't think about how easy I have it here in our country until I read about women like Loujain and Nasrin. All my petty complaints are meaningless compared to their sacrifices and suffering. Thanks for this article, Mr. Kristof, but please keep us informed of any way we can help to raise consciousness about their plight.
62
@Pundette, Amnesty International, whose general secretary is quoted here, is a good source of information. They can always use money, and their website tells of human rights causes where citizen advocacy can possibly make a difference.
14
@Pundette The best and proper places to present their cases are to the Office of the UN's High Commissioner on Human Rights and to the UN's Human Rights Council. Unfortunately, the U.S. under President Trump withdrew U.S. membership on the Council.
11
I could not help but think about the many recent letters to the editor to my local newspaper, the Cleveland Plain Dealer, lamenting the removal of one of the strips from the comics page. If only people would devote half as much of their passions to what is important in the world. Thank you Mr. Kristof for covering issues that REALLY matter.
217
Thank-you Mr. Kristof for keeping the news about these two courageous women front and center. Hopefully the Nobel committee recognizes them for their courage and impact and forces some sunlight onto their repressive governments. The fact that the U.S. only speaks up against these abuses in Iran and not S.A. is shameful.
265
The abuses in Saudi Arabia are far worse in every way than those in Iran. Saudi Arabia is the source of worldwide Terrorism having funded and educated and supported Al Qaeda and ISIS most recently in Yemen. The Saudis use our logistics and our weapons to perpetrate war in Yemen.
The Saudi fanatic Wahhabi religion that oppresses all women and considers all non-Wahhabis apostates and infidels suitable for death inspire Sunnis around the world to commit terrorist outrages.
Because American oligarchs, powerful oil, banking, and defense interests our policies have been so corrupted that we attacked Iraq after 9/11, while 15 of the 19 terrorist were Saudis, and all were Wahhabi. We did nothing to exact retribution and have instead befriended the Saudis and armed them. Trump plans to sell them Nuclear Technology. Then there is the Khashoggi murder about which Trump excuses, on the grounds of his “trust” of MBS while once again, Trump disregards our intelligence and the evidence. Is their any chance Trump will help these women?
5
"What the Trump administration doesn’t seem to understand is this: If you care about human rights only in countries that you despise, you don’t actually care about human rights."
Well said. One problem with our politicians on both sides of the aisle is consistency. The other problem is the idea of staying out of the internal affairs of other nations, whether we deem them ally or foe.
58
Thank you Nicholas for highlighting their cause and keeping at it. Please keep writing about them.
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