Meanwhile, the unemployment rate for people of African descent EITHER born abroad or born in Quebec remains the same: 13%. It is good to be white and French, not as much to be darker-skinned.
37
It is astounding the number of French in downtown Montreal. They are usually younger, starting via vacation but with intent to stay and always due to the economic problems in France. They are not the Parisian stereotype even though they also come from Paris. Friendly, open and they are working everywhere. If this continues Quebec may start turning more French again from its current place as French North America. (OK, not really but there are many FR here).
The men are at times surprised that Quebecoise (Quebec women) are so self confident and basically are "like guys" (to quote an American friend of mine, meant as a complement i.e. they are very cool). They do not have the puritan derived hangups of English North America and with year long daycare (if they wish) etc. they are quietly set for the future while feminism in the US has become weaponized. Not to say there are still many issues to address but they are very much in charge of their destinies and pushing forward. You need to be a Modern Man to interact with a Quebecoise but then again you should be anyway. They won't put up with less.
Vive le Quebec (and French are welcome too).
24
The old aristocratic ways still hold Europe down. England, France and Germany have struggled against classism but if you want to start a business or secure a high level job, you'll have a better chance of success if your family name is old and noble. I think America and Canada served as pressure release valves for Europe. The lower class could come here and achieve success that their very names would have barred them from back home. This is why everyone says "tu" in Quebec. There is not the sense in North America that the servants need to be addressed differently from the masters. This shocks many French, even socialists who by rights should be calling everone "tu" as well.
39
One of Québec's greatest living writers (IMHO), Marie Laberge, has written, among other excellent novels, three stories highlighting the collaboration of two homicide inspectors, one French and the other Québécoise. Among other virtues of these books, Laberge provides several insightful comparisons of French vs. Québécois perspectives and behaviors, which unfold in a variety of lively settings in the province. If your French is up to it, you will encounter some uncommon literary rewards in Laberge's work.
13
You get cancer, they risk COPD (inhalation of any burning vegetative matter is very brutal to the lungs). Your cigarettes stink; their joints offend clean air. You have much in common.
6
The medical community has concluded that pot smoking does not cause COPD. COPD is more than mere irritation in the lungs. COPD is a shorthand designation for a group of very specific disease processes, including asthma and emphysema, and pot smoking does not appear to trigger those specific processes. Besides, everyone vapes now. Or should.
12
As an Anglo born of America and British parents, I love living in Montreal in French. The young students from France are not snobs, they are just culturally insecure. Their 'American' Québecois dream is a difficult transition period. Living in France is no easy affair. You see small things in Montreal, like how many French kids do not queue at bus stops, or how they cut into conversations out of turn. France is an aggressive, often 'maladroit' environment where poor manners and macho culture thrive. These young French students learn quickly though as the Québecois put them in their place at every turn. It's amusing for me to watch all of this. Personally I like the Québecois (much alike the American attitude) of 'get real and think for yourself' versus the 'pack' or herd culture that is so French. I am having fun watching everyone go at it here in Montreal! Cheers!
42
Excellent, well-balance piece. Montreal is truly a miracle - of culture, tolerance, multi-culturalism and much more, and the French migration (including my son) has played an important part. By and large French visitors and migrants to Quebec are treated extremely well and, in turn, rapidly develop a real love for all things Quebec.
17
Language evolution. Native born German, John J. Astor initially moved to London, where his brother lived, and learned English and Anglo-Saxon business culture. He then moved to NYC to pursue business opportunities. After working and learning the furrier business in NYC he went off on his own. He personally went north to upstate NY and into Canada to buy furs and develop his business. He supposedly learned three Indian tongues well enough to conduct business in those languages. French Canada (Montreal) meant that he was going to encounter the French tongue. Before the colonials realized independence, the furs taken had to first be transported to London where they were taxed before returning to NYC where they were converted into Beaver hats, and the like. The English then, unlike today, had the power to impose their will via tax policy. Again, furs went from NY to England and back to satisfy the tax man. Imagine!
On a personal note, I begged my 16 year old son to study Spanish in high school. He was not an budding Francophile but insisted on French class because the girls were prettier in that class. He now lives in Austin and travels frequently to San Antonio and the Rio Grand Valley for business. The Spanish in high school he dodged might have really served him now.
7
It seems Quebecers are to France what America is the Great Britain? A common language does not insure solidarity, does it? Although it does allow for all sorts of hilarity so long as you can retain your sense of humor.....
John~
American Net'Zen
9
I went to Montreal in November of 1994, I couldn't hear a word as my ears were frozen shut.
16
My French ancestors arrived in 1661. Almost all colonists (apx. 50,000) arrived between 1620 and 1680, more or less. After that, numbers dropped. Then the Brits took over in 1763. Culturally, French Canadian and the French were isolated from each other for nearly 300 years. Hence the divergence. Un bon article - merci!
104
I've often speculated as to why Canada remained Catholic as a high-latitude country.
Roman Catholicism emerged from Roman Imperialism via the Holy Roman Empire -- and of course, we all remember, "All Gaul is divided into 3 parts...." It's where Roman Officers retired.
Arminius drove the Romans out of Germany, Charlemagne restored their influence, Martin Luther protested, and France fought two revolutions trying to continue what Luther started.
Nevertheless, Southern Germany remained Catholic. Northern Germany became Protestant and it stuck because Independent thought is essential for sailing the North Sea, the Hanseatic League, free enterprise, and capitalism.
The existential challenges of Canada are comparable to Scandinavia, and Canadians have a remarkable conscience and government that demonstrates high responsibility to all citizens.
To my mind, the difference is the influence of its Native American culture. It's the culture that made the lower 48 so unique 250 years ago. -- Government exists to serve the needs of the people, rather than the other way around. Independent thought applied to immediate needs whether on tumultuous seas or in a frozen wilderness keeps spirits alive, free, and happy. That's why the French come to Canada.
9
Although there are plenty of English words in common use in France, they aren’t necessarily the same ones used in Quebec. I still laugh when I remember some years ago traveling to Montreal with two French friends and a Belgian and stopping to buy gas at a service station. While filling the tank the young attendant asked us “Est-ce que je dois “checké votre oil?” The only person who understood was me.
11
Nowhere does the article explain why the French are suddenly moving to Quebec in the first place. Why is that?
5
What???? you should read it again, it was pretty clear.
15
5.5% unemployment, for starters, as opposed to 9% in France.
9
So the French are surprised to find a very different culture in Montreal? I used to hang out on the Plateau speaking Castilian Spanish at the Libreria Espanola that I learned in Spain. Then I went to Argentina and found barely a trace of Spain in Buenos Aires.
Plus ca change...
5
French and Québécois divided by a common language. Isn’t that what someone said about Britain and the USA?
4
"Ma blonde" also used to mean "my girlfriend" in France, as in "Au pres de ma blonde," an old French song. Quebec French retained a lot of old words and expressions that were discarded in France as the language evolved, modernized, and was standardized by the Academie Francaise and Larousse. That's why they can sneer at our "rustic patois."
14
Lol, when I went to Montreal in college I could read the paper just fine but I couldn't find anyone to answer a question I had,, that is,,anyone whose French I could understand completely. When I finally found someone I understood completely, he told me he could not answer my question since he was from Paris.
In the US I was told, by someone from Quebec, how bad French lessons were in US schools. She cited as an example voiture meaning car instead of baby stroller. Before I could check myseld I said, "But in France voiture does mean car." Another time in the Lake Champlain area, a Quesbec mororist asled me if I ha a "wrench," pronounced iwith heavy nasal so i Did not at first realize he wanted a wrench. Then, when I got it, I said, "Oh, you mean a torque." I had many other such language encounters. But when I went to France, and stayed at my cousin's apartment (they were away) I discovered that tour guides and the gentry (I met some right off the plane) spoke a recognizable US school French but no one else did. I was befuddled for about two weeks and then one morning realized that I could understand what everyone was saying. Language is a slippery thing.
12
The biggest difference between France and Quebec is the weather. Quebec is colder in winter, more humid in the summer.
4
This story sort of implies that people find cultural differences to be rather annoying but for myself, I think I find cultural differences to be interesting. Visiting Montreal for an American has a sort of feel of a foreign culture even though everyone speaks perfect American English. Here in LA where I live there are pockets of Chinese, Viet Namese, Korean, Thai, Mexican and other cultures brought here by immigrants and each one has a special ambiance all its own and very interesting.
20
Am I the only American who has met a certain froideur speaking my academic French to the Quebecois in Montreal?
18
I was rolling on the floor with laughter. I am an American with the English name Mathews which was originally spelled Mathieu. We were on the wrong side of the Seven Years War (French and Indian War to most Americans). A good book to read is The History of France and England in the New World by Francis Parkman. Reading Le Monde can be at times funny. A great White Shark was referred to as "No jellyroll he". Or a dispatch from the Middle East that read "Israeli Aircraft of the fight repeatedly rapped positions defended by the Army of Earth" (Israel strafed French Army positions in Lebanon). To my Québec brothers and sisters, the French are not like you and me. However they can be great fun, and they take great pride in Napoleon. They also make great toy soldiers and you can endlessly reconstruct great battles. Another cottage industry you all can take part in. Oh and the reason General Arnold failed to take Québec, well there was this tavern owner who rolled the drunks at dawn and one of these drunks saw the troops massing and somehow manage to fire a cannon. No one was hurt, and it made a lot of noise and woke everyone up to prevent Canada from becoming a part of the United States. As one Canadian put it, "God Bless our drunks". I would love to hear you comments.
10
Benjamin Franklin ran Montreal's English language daily and it was Montreal Merchants who were leaders in the Boston Tea Party when the East India Company put a tax on everyone else's tea. We were part of England's North American colonies and the final intolerable act was the Quebec Act which would have given the Colony's Catholics equal rights.
When the French had their revolution Quebec became an ultraConservative society that had France as The Enemy and Britain as the protector of the Church, Financial Elite and the Bourgeoise. It was the 1960s that Quebec had it quiet revolution and created the society that had once been America's dream until your conservatives destroyed it..
I grew up in Quebec but history informs me post revolution Quebec is more the America that was great than the France that grew out of the revolution.
I no longer live near the plateau where my mother was born and my father moved when he gave up his American visa to a sister who was more needy of living in NYC.
The Montreal I grew up in was more segregated than Chicago. My French teachers came from Egypt, Morocco and France.
I no longer live in Montreal but when I hear about contemporary Quebec I shed a tear because there is no contemporary Quebec. We are what America was when it was great, a society so fast growing and so dynamic that change happens in heartbeat and the promise of the breakaway from Europe and its bourgeoise and peasant values seems more fulfilled every day.
12
The French, in movies, smoke cigarettes so much that viewers are in danger from second-hand smoke. If they really do smoke like that, I can see why Quebec residents might have a problem with them. Oh, and if the French really want to see a different French language, they should visit Southern Louisiana. A lot of Cajun French, thanks to isolation, harkens back to the 19th century.
8
The real story is about the mob moving from NYC to Montreal and burying the place in corruption to the point all the money left for Toronto. I love Montreal but like someone said about R Kelley, "Brothers got a problem."
10
What's going on at "Plateau Rpyal" is typical with french behavior in foreing countries. I am french and during 25 years travelled world wide working for a french pipeline contractor. I was amazed witnessing french expatriates socializing only together, producing no effort to adapt nor learning the basis of language. I was nicnamed the "linguist" or the explorer not doing the same, trying to live within local people and learning their languages. Sadly, it's look like still being the same.
30
At a distance ( I grew up south of the border in Vermont ) and from reading the the Times updates on the culture in Quebec and Montreal, it appears there is more forward progress there, despite say being stuck in Paris and all of it's difficulties. I say this as someone who has now lived his life in the San Francisco Bay Area since 1968 and if you really desire to become confused trying living out here for a while ( chuckle ) Just for starters I am still horrified that 'some' smoke cigarettes in France and possibly in Montreal. Out here it's seen as a relic of the distant past, a destructive and deadly health issue and one not to be inflicted on others. So maybe culture is all relative to what one is used to.
I also understand that English is being taught in many French schools in France now. It's an international passport for travel and employment.
8
Born and raised in Quebec. You may be able to get by with just English (or just barely) in Centre Montreal but venture outside the city and it is pretty much mostly French with a pocket or two exceptions. As a mostly bilingual anglophone, I've always thought of French from France and Quebec French similar to or comparing U.S. southern English (Quebec) accent vs a British English accent (France) and probably with same stereotypes those accents entail. The same language but different? Great article, I enjoyed reading it.
10
Quebec has always welcomed immigrants from France and other French-speaking countries. Unfortunately, it also continues to sell Canadian citizenship to thousands of wealthy "investor-class" immigrants annually - two-thirds of whom come from mainland China. The only qualifications are a minimum net worth of $2 million Cdn and willingness to lend $1.2 million to the Quebec government, interest-free for 5 years.
The majority of these passport-buyers leave Quebec as soon as possible for BC and Ontario. Quebec doesn't care, because, as the provincial finance minister has stated, "their money stays here". For 5 years, anyway. And the expense of health and social services for the passport-buyers falls on the provinces they move to.
20
It seems to me that the thrust of this NYT article is, that even though the new immigrants are from France, they are receiving the same (un)welcome that immigrants from other countries have always received in Montréal, that is, speak Québécois or we’ll find fault with you.
I’m a born and raised Montrealer, forced by law to go to English school because I wasn’t Catholic. That’s the way it was back then. I worked my entire career in Montreal in français and English.
Although my children had the legal exemption to attend English school, we educated three of four in French.
They all left Québec being fluently bilingual, armed with that very special gift.
Ultimately we left as well to be closer to some of them.
There are problems in every city, some related to language, some to a variety of other issues.
Montréal will always have a very special place in my heart.
It’s a great, lively historical place to visit, it was a great place to live.
14
Quebec province is beautiful especially the Laurentian mountains. Montreal is a cosmopolitan city. The city of Quebec is smaller and more easily manageable. We were there on National Day and the locals were proud of being French as opposed to being Anglais but they are not French other than for language, mostly. Poutine is a culture shock for anyone. Drove the Old Canada Road to Maine along Moose River and Moose Valley and didn't see nary a one.
4
This article is "n'importe quoi," filled with a cast of stereotypes of "beer-drinking" Quebecois and "wine-drinking" French (and it seems to me that both are distinctly white iterations). The attitude of this article reeks of the 1950s -- can we not at this point in time imagine a wider spectrum of people existing under a national umbrella? Imagine culture shock -- that two countries should be different?! I mean hasn't globalization flattened everything out yet? I live on the Plateau and clearly I take offense to the one-dimensional portrayal of my community. And, btw, I bet a few French are smoking pot too. As for women not liking to be called "baby," well, that extends past the boundaries of Quebec. What is the point of this piece?
15
Vive la difference! I go to French Canada to -- you know -- enjoy French things. I don't need to be greeted in two languages. Who does not know what "bonjour" means? I relish the cultural differences and hope they continue. Without them, what's the attraction? I don't go all that way for more of what I get here at home.
11
The take away from this article for me is how poorly France has fared economically for the past few decades. It is sad, but France is going no where financially. A new mentality needs to take hold. More self reliance is needed along with the realization that the government can not solve their problems.
Those moving to Montreal for opportunity are exactly the people that France needs most - self starters who can make something happen.
29
And that is what the writer should have expanded on more, I have lived and live in both and other countries and your point is spot on, France needs the people that leave, buthe ones that moeved will not come back to France to live
8
The fact of the matter is that the Lingua Franca of the World is English.
The only language spoken by more people may be Chinese. But, of course, many of them now also speak English.
France lost in 1066 when the Norman barons learned to speak English instead of getting the English to speak French. As they say, the rest is history.
9
As one who grew up in Montreal in English, I can only say that I feel enriched growing up in an environment of two languages, even though there was a perceived tension between them.
Although we spoke different languages, we shared a common culture. When I was a boy, Maurice “the Rocket” Richard, ( pronounced Reechard), was a hero to both anglophones and francophones in Montreal, and, for the most part, whether we were English or French we rooted for les Canadien when they played the Toronto Maple Leafs, and hockey mattered more than any other sport.
I think that English and French, we are a part of a broader Canadian culture which is distinct from a greater North American culture.
When I arrived in Canada as an infant, my parents spoke neither one of the official languages. They knew Polish, Russian and Yiddish, and mainly spoke Yiddish at home. My father loved soccer, but I still remember watching Hockey Night in Canada on Saturday nights on a 21 inch black and white TV with him and how he would let out a cheer when the Canadians would score a goal.
22
What's your point?
2
@Eugene
Can I suggest a little more historical research. The Normans of 1066 spoke Norman French, they were not Frenchmen, Normandy was a separate state. French continued as the language of the Court and Parliament for at least another 350 years. The first literature to be published in English was by Chaucer, there was no such language as English in 1066
12
Québec has also been more socially progressive than France, the U.S., or even other Canadian provinces on the issue of LGBTQ rights. As far back as 1977, the Quebec Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is both a charter of rights and a human rights act, was amended to prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation. Thus, the province of Quebec became the first jurisdiction in the WORLD larger than a city or county to prohibit sexual orientation discrimination in the private and public sectors.
25
I work with many French in Montreal and they are great. I appreciate the 'seriouness' that they bring to the table. They are smart and always ready for a discussion. They eat out a lot and help our young and old chefs sustain themselves. I root for Les Bleus now. Its all for the better. They are as welcome as our large French MIddle Eastern, Haitian and African citizens. Anything to help save the language and of course to make our community way more interesting...
29
Montreal is truly a wonderful, and complex city. As someone who was born there, and was a teenager who was part of the English exodus in the 1970's down the 401 (the highway joining Montreal and Toronto) I wish I were able to speak both English and French now.
Growing up in an Irish-Catholic neighbourhood in west end Montreal, speaking French tragically wasn't considered important. Later high school French courses in Ontario might have prepared me for Parisienne French, but certainly not in Quebec.
When I return to the city of my birth and speak English with a few French words thrown in, I still feel a little sad I can't explore all Montreal has to offer because of the language barriers that still exist among its' residents.
But as any Montrealer knows only too well, this is not a city easily defined or categorized, and thankfully so.
28
Quebec needs a wall.
5
Already has one!
9
Montreal is a terrific town. Many languages are spoken on the neighborhoods. It's a delight to visit. I'm sure it will all work out entre les francais et les quebecois.
12
A Wonderful article and great comments below.
I have been to Montreal - a visit came after many repeat visits to Paris and other parts of France.
And I hate to say this - but I concluded why go all the way to France - when Montreal is so much nearer, less expensive, friendlier (at least to Americans) and food is just as good.
Vive Le Quebec !
28
@Neil I like both Quebec and France but the latter has more depth meaning more diverse geography and food.
Do both!
4
As a French citizen living in the US, now in Maine, my visits to Canada, especially Québec have been positive, enlightening and so much fun! In Canada I feel more welcome than in my own country across the pond and more French than in my adoptive country, the US where I have lived for almost 40 years because of marriage and children. Canada and its French province Québec deserve a lot of gratitude for offering francophone culture, food, music and laughs mixed in with American practicality. Vive le Québec!
54
“They make rents go up and steal our women.”
Believe me, no self-respecting Québécoise would ever be "stolen", nor would she choose a Français (macho) over a Québecois (feminist).
58
@Jenny Schumacher
Haha, good point. The songwriter was flattering himself and engaging in wishful thinking -- another reason the jokes fell flat.
16
Back in 1984 my mother and I took a vacation to Canada, specifically Montreal and Toronto. In Montreal, few would speak English with us and would pretend not to understand us (in restaurants, shops, hotels, etc.). Then my mother and I would just start speaking German... that'd usually cure the problem. Nowadays I understand we were visiting during one of those Quebec Separatist fevers that periodically infect the province, and that was their way of protesting. Although what they thought they were accomplishing by being rude to Americans I'm still not sure I understand.
16
Why would you expect people in a French speaking country to speak your language? Not all French speaking Canadians speak English. I find it sad that people expect foreigners to speak English and think they are rude when they do not understand. This also has led everyone in the tourism industry to adopt English as the default language, which means you have to ask them to speak their own language if you master it.
5
Why is this surprising? Brits who move to the U.S. don’t expect the language or the culture to be identical.
What is different, and not discussed in the article, is that many Quebecers hate the French because they think they look down on them. They consider French accents snobby, uptight and condescending. In contrast most Americans love English accents and find them charming.
38
Vive la difference !
I enjoy both Quebec and France....having lived many years in both.
Travel permits one to experience that this has never been a homogenized world....nor should it be.
21
I'm surprised and delighted by the phenomenon of French moving to Quebec. But I would draw a distinction between Montreal and much of the rest of the province of (mostly francophone) Quebec. Montreal, once a city of "Two Solitudes," has largely rejected both English arrogance and Quebecois nationalism. Bilingualism seems to rule the day in the central part of the city, where many residents switch effortlessly from one language to the other. I for one never feel uncomfortable speaking English when visiting there (and I speak French too.) In the age of Trump, this particular embrace of globalism is refreshing, allowing Montrealers greater access to North American culture and commerce. Now if some francais can drop their linguistic snobbism and pick up "joual" (the dialect of Quebec), then maybe their compatriots in Europe could, like the Dutch, enjoy the economic benefits of greater proficiency in English.
18
I wonder if Premier Legault and Quebecois would be as welcoming to an influx of French citizens of African and Middle Eastern descent.
16
The amounts of immigrants of African and Middle Eastern decent outnmber those of France.
18
If I want a holiday in a foreign country, I go to Quebec (America is not foreign enough). Of course, it isn't legally one, but it feels like one.
Montreal in particular feels like being in Paris.
Just don't try to speak French to them if you're no good at it.
11
@Ambrose
"America is not foreign enough"
Ahhh but have you been to the beguiling Los Angeles, with its many different communities? There are 200+ languages spoken in my home state, with no shortage of foreign cuisines and cultures. And that is just one corner of the States. I love Quebec as well, if I can't go to France.
But don't discount unique, multicultural parts of the U.S. Or do, I don't care.
4
@Left Coast
OK but you are just talking of enclaves. Quebec is a country within a country.
When I cross the border into Washington State it's same old except on the way to Spokane it feels a bit like Deliverance country.
5
Sorry. But when you go to Montréal you are in a different culture.
Whereas, when heading to LA or Miami or Dallas or... you may well venture into some ghetto where foreign languages are spoken and foreign foods are served (mostly in lower-end establishement). But you are still in an American city with American culture, bad infrastructure, homeless people, drugs and guns.
Now, there are stunning places to visit out West. But they are nature-related. Certainly not culture-related...
8
"they steal our women"
yeah, I know it's tongue-in-cheek---but the "woman as object owned by man" routine just isn't funny to me anymore. in any context.
43
Well articulated. Also, there are so many francophones who have come to Montreal from around the world, that the Montreal Québécois accent is changing.
15
I wonder if it is fair and even constitutional for the premier Legault to favour the French from France over other immigrants.
Actually, this is not the first government who does similar policies . Reducing university fees for them is one of these policies. Well, désolé, this shouldn't happen.
Having said that, I know many ''francais'' from France that leave Quebec after 5, 10, 15 years in Quebec. Not necessarily disappointed but most of them, when they get the ''north american'' experience, they leave.
2
Most people leave simply because the winter is just tooo long. We did, after 10 winters!
6
Looking at all the examples of “issues” between the two cultures, it all sounds like people like to exaggerate problems…
Obviously it won’t all be easy from day 1, but if you can’t figure out that a different country will have different rules about formality, different men/women appropriate interactions, different language rules and different food (some of it you might not like), you are a naive idiot who hasn’t travelled much (and I suspect not many French people are in this situation). And if you can’t adapt to these relatively minor issues, you will struggle anywhere in the world.
Bottom line is still: Québec is still one of the easiest society to integrate as a French, bar some close European countries. As demonstrated by the absurd example of Chinese and Mexican cultures: even the US is much more easier to integrate as a Frenchman, than China would be for a Mexican.
6
You left off the part about the French being so incredibly rude. The Quebecois I know don't really care about being "known" by the French. They care about the lack of manners and arrogance that is a part of interacting with the majority of French immigrants to Quebec. That is the reason for animosity between the French "cousins".
38
Quebecer? What language is that?
2
@Jonathan Katz It's one of the two standard English spellings for the noun that means "resident of the province of Quebec".
18
@Judy Never heard of such a word.
1
It was hard to read this article and contain my gag reflex. I resent the fluidity with which (white) French and other Europeans are able to travel to any part of the globe they wish, set up shop and make money. I seethe when I hear the Frenchies in my neck of the woods in Brooklyn, expatriate owners of yet another fancy, high-priced French bakery or restaurant, chattering about like they own the place whereas I can't spend one day in Paris without constant harassment from french police and others, despite my fluent French and French background (Huguenot great-grandparents). As long as your skin is black you will be followed around and mistreated. The rules of colonial white society remain in effect. I'm sure the people here wishing more French people would immigrate to Louisiana or more (white) Europeans to other parts of our country don't give a darn about the immigrant people of color who make our way of life possible.
79
@kim "I can't spend one day in Paris without constant harassment from French police and others". Now that’s clearly an exaggeration. Also thinking that the French “diaspora” is just a bunch of (white) rich people opening bakeries is completely misguided. These are just the ones you see…
It is very much easier to travel the world and settle in a different country as a rich white man than as a black woman, and I don’t think many people would contest that. No need for exaggeration.
22
@Bob Robert
p.s. You're part of the problem. Don't mansplain or dismiss the personal experiences of a woman of color. Try listening. For once.
@kim
Right on.
31
Then stay in the US. However, here you folks complain about US police doing racial profiling.
Let me tell you one thing: I have a long dark hipster beard and I was living in the Middle-East for 3 years. And yes, I was checked and searched regularly at check points and airports, because they tend to have problems there with extremist young men (who tend to grow long beards). Yes it was annoying, and yes they just tried doing their job. They wouldn't have been doing their job right if they had been targeting old grannies at the same rate they were targeting their bearded clientèle.
Now, the same principle applies to police forces in the US and Paris: They are doing their job by keeping an eye on their clientèle. This can certainly be annoying if your looks fit into their target pattern, but try to rationalize it. Now, the fact that the police here is way too trigger happy and literally gets away with murder is a different story. This makes me feel unsafe as well. In Paris, at least, they don't have this problem with their police.
12
If it is true that French immigrants are the cause the increase of rent and of the Real estate Price in Le Plateau, it is (way!) false that French guys steal Quebecor women from men!!! The fact is that Quebecor women are not attracted by French men pretending to "who know it all" while not being able to do anything by themselves ! Thx, but No Thx!
20
A beer and a joint with supper sounds ideal.
15
Well, then just head over there. It's a 60 mins flight and a world away. It makes for fantastic trips!
9
I am both French (my father was Parisian) and a Quebecer (raised in Montreal, and receiving all my education in English). I always took offence at having my vocabulary corrected by French tourists to my province when speaking them.
One day I learned from a French co-worker that Canada, specifically Quebec, was much different then what he had been raised to expect: He confided that, in France, they were taught that Quebec was more or less a "Département d'outre-mer", and "overseas department" of France, no different than St. Pierre-et-Miquelon.
Suddenly, it all made sense: they acted as though they were visiting the colonies, bringing the good news from the homeland, which we no-doubt dreamed of returning to one day.
From that day on I felt nothing but compassion for our ill-informed and ill prepared (distant) European cousins.
103
@Dom R. I think your co-worker was full of it, and/or did not listen much at school: only the most ignorant French people would think that Québec is somehow an oversea department or a colony. Oversea department are literally part of France: they vote for the same presidential elections, and people have the same rights as in France. Again there might be some ignorant exceptions, but you do realize than French borders Switzerland, Belgium and Luxembourg (all have French-speaking regions), so French people are very used to the idea that not because you speak French it means you are some kind of colony?
And teachers will certainly not teach children that Canada is anything else than a fully independent country, because the most basic education requirement would make them know better.
French people certainly are quite ignorant about Canada’s history, but considering they’re THAT misguided is quite ridiculous.
9
@Bob Robert My apologies, Bob. English being my second language I fear I did not express myself clearly. When I said "more or less" it was intended to reflect similitude, not identity.
Since you require precision: The way that some (not all) of the French who have never visited Quebec speak of it it gives some children (my colleague one of them, as well as my father) the romanticized impression that Quebec is still very much tied to France in ways that reach beyond language. You'll note that I never mentioned school, but you may have been thrown by my use of the word "taught", which I now see was misleading.
The impression that Guillaume (I wish I could remember his family name) had was that Quebec was not much different than a Departement.
While it Vietnam I met a very nice couple on a cruise to Ha Long Bay. At dinner the woman looked at me and stated quizzically (and here I'll translate for you) "You are Canadian? But you speak French." She meant to say that she could understand what I was saying because I do not have a French accent nor do I have a thick Quebecois accent which many from France find indecipherable.
Also, to be clear, I am a French citizen (as well as Canadian), so do not presume to give me a geography lesson about my own country.
34
There appears to be a misunderstanding in comparing two language streams e.g the spoken French in Canada and that which is spoken in France. The former lacks the governmental control that befalls the latter that is insistent on purity.
The important thing here is that we should celebrate our differences as well as our similarities and enjoy the riches of a cultural exchange. As a Montrealer by birth (and proud of it) and will unlikely ever be completely bilingual, I maintain that it is worth making the attempt to speak another language (not only as a courtesy) but for the richness of the experience even if that experience ends up badly. It tends to be the galic way however to be polite and courteous.
I have found, fortunately, that although rudeness knows no bounds (In France, Quebec or Canada) it is far surpassed by courtesy and goodwill.
17
I studied French in school for many years. I have no idea why French people in France struggle to understand me. Maybe I should visit Quebec!
15
@john
Because Americans who have learned French in school have a very inflated sense of their command of the language, which is usually quite poor. No fault of theirs, because that is true of any learner of a second language who has no opportunity to immerse him/herself in a world where it is spoken by all. Six years of classroom French in Topeka does not, ever, a French-speaker make. Add six months to a year in Chicoutimi or Arles and you have a different story.
16
@Denis Pelletier indeed after four years in Montréal, including studying in in partially, I believed I had a passable command of French. But my American friends with high-school French tell me they're fluent!
5
Excellent article and I have a question.
In this context and article, when the NYT uses the term 'North America', do you only mean Canada and the U.S., or do you also include Mexico as well?
I ask because in articles about NAFTA in the NYT I get the impression 'North America' means all three countries.
For this Canadian it is a little confusing at times and I am led to make assumptions that may or may not not be correct.
10
@MKS
But not as bad as when Albertans presume to speak for the west ;)
4
@MKS Mexico is thought to be part of Central America.
4
@MKS There is no one definition of North America, or of Central America. These are arbitrary notions (which doesn’t mean they are useless): what the author means by it depends on the context, so there is no need to get too hang up on that.
2
The opening of the article tells me that I am going to read this article.
Because duh...of course, French people do not share the same culture with Canadian people, anymore than Americans and Britons are the same.
9
@Jay David
Or Canadians and Americans. You are exactly correct sir.
7
@MKS
What about (aboot) Americans with Canadian parents, who immigrated to America, eh? And English/Irish grandparents (parents of my parents) who originally immigrated to Canada then to America for retirement...I was immersed in a lot of their culture.
2
Vive le Quebec libre! At least "libre" from France.
9
The article illustrates why I think its silly that some people in the US identifies as "Irish", "German" or "Swedish" when they haven't been near to set a foot in the country for generations. Even emigrants are cut off, and subsequently grafted unto their new tree.
It is not wrong being whom you are, as the people of Quebec rightly shows. Embrace it. Grow with your new tree. (or old if you've newer known an other)
14
@J U
Agreed. Americans (people in the State, that is) are obsessed with claiming to be (usually) Irish/German/Scottish, etc. when in fact they have no resemblance to cultures of those countries. It's also ironic considering how the U.S. acts as an island, wanting little to do with other places.
12
@J U
Why, it's like they reject the American melting-pot dictum v. the more welcoming and inclusive cultural mosaic.
3
@J U My grandparents were from the Volga region and as a child I can remember them being clean-freaks (scrubbing and dusting daily), punctual, frugal, stern, and having few friends other than family. I thought they were weird. I arrived in Germany to teach in '90 and realized there were 75 million people just like them. I fit right in.
34
Would one expect a brit to just drop into Alberta or Oklahoma City and experience much that is familiar just because of a mutually intelligible language? Doubt it.
15
Most of the irish fellows in Québec mix-up with french peoples cause of the catholic fact. Many irish names like Wilson, Gallagher, Johnson. Speak french. My grandfather spoke Gaellic and English was is second language.
11
The "sacrificed pigs" example used in this article to illustrate France's condescension towards Quebec is a bit disingenuous. Yes, this was published in a French magazine, but the person who reported this example is a famous chef from... Quebec!
10
Is this any stranger than being British in America or Spanish in Argentina?
18
@San I suspect those breaking stories will follow soon -
16
The English-speaking public schools in Canada teach "French" French rather than Canadian French? Whaa? I thought the whole point of mandatory bilingual education was to promote national unity.
4
@Chuck It was always French/French growing up in Canada. And this story does not refer to the divide between English Canadians and French Canadians. But that's another story.
I think one of the points of this story is to show that the old country is socially stifling, economically depressed and losing a lot of its own people.
6
@Chuck Schools tend to teach a "standard" French that would be acceptable in most francophone countries. For oral French, schools throughout the country generally aim for the "Radio Canada announcer accent". When I look at the French I was taught in public school and what my younger relatives are learning in both English and French schools in Quebec, there's a clear focus on "business French" and sounding professional. Slang, Joual and regional expressions tend to be part of literature classes.
11
@Judy
I agree. All countries have a written language, often adhering to a standard grammar and syntax, and a received pronunciation, think BBC English. On top of this are regional differences and dialects. Trust me, the average citizen of Paris would be far more lost for words and understanding in Marseilles than in Montreal. Sometimes rich literary traditions grow from these regional differences. As a child, I spoke Scots in the school yard but received pronunciation at home. Back then, sadly, regional dialects, and even languages were considered inferior
1
"They make rents go up and steal our women."
Somehow I doubt it would be the enlightened Quebecois who'd use the phrase "our women," which assumes both a straight male listener and a straight male speaker, as well as implying men's ownership of women. (Please don't pretend the phrase is meant to include lesbians.)
Seems M. Schneider has unintentionally made himself Exhibit A in the case that French men suffer from what's politely termed "machismo."
16
@Gen-Xer I think it was supposed to be an over-broad joke called hyperbole, not a serious analysis of the sexual habits or proclivities of the Quebecois.
10
@Katrin
I know he was trying to joke around in a half-baked way, and deliberately use an antiquated phrase as a way of exaggerating how oafish, primitive, and tribalistic these supposed Quebecois xenophobes were being. So, yes, a kind of hyperbole.
But casually throwing in a sexist phrase was off-topic (with regard to xenophobia) and didn't make sense. It simply didn't work as part of the joke, which was pretty lame to begin with.
I just found it ironic that a Frenchman would create a fictional Quebecois who was sexist, too. Given the stubborn survival of French "machismo" culture in this day and age (as mentioned in the article), it seemed to be a case of author intrusion.
4
@Katrin
Within the context, 'over-broad' is a bit of a joke itself.
5
Bien joué to both Quebec and France for making this work and learning more about each other; dare we ask if the non white citizens of France fare as well here as their fellow citizens?
13
They do.
9
As an American who majored in French and has visited Quebec numerous times (as well as France), I love the distinctiveness of Quebec's French but it is a challenge at times. Not so much in Montreal or even Quebec City, but elsewhere, oh la la! This past summer, my family and I went to the Musee POP, a popular culture museum in Trois Rivieres (excuse the lack of accent marks!). We toured an old prison. My husband and I both speak French but our teen son does not. No problem, I thought, I'll translate. And I did - sort of. But the guide spoke so fast and, more importantly, had such a distinct accent, that half the time I could not follow him. You know how some New Yorkers say "sawr" for saw? Well, in parts of Quebec, les cheveux (the hair) can come out as "les cheveur." That's how our guide spoke. I had better luck translating a few days later at Canada's Supreme Court in Ottawa, where the guide's Quebecois accent was more urban and standard. Et oui, there are fascinating vocabulary differences that you learn quickly. In France, breakfast is "petit dejeuner." In Quebec, it's dejeuner. My French is good enough that I've never gotten snooty comments in France but, as for Quebec, the Quebecois are more relaxed these days - I remember visiting during the height of separatist fervor in the 1980s. Back then, if you didn't speak French, you would not be greeted warmly. It was disconcerting to see tourists this time *expecting* to be served en anglais w/o even a bonjour.
8
Back in the day I visited our NASA contractor in Toronto. On one trip I was conversing with a seat mate about the Canadian French. He was from Chicago as I remember. He ahd a French Canadian work mate who always talked about his desire to visit France. This was late 80's.
The co-worker finally got the time off and scheduled a 3 week to France. He returned in one week. When he spoke the French would insult him. It took off some of his Francophile.
10
@dilbert dogbert To be fair French people were known for treating terribly tourists from everywhere at that time, and making no effort to communicate with anyone. While many places in Paris (generally tourist traps) are known to still treat their clients poorly, your colleague would get at worst friendly jokes nowadays.
2
Having spent 6 years of my education in Montreal and marrying an Ivoirien, my facility with the French language is not all that bad.... until I try to understand French/French. I cannot understand a word. It sounds to me like nothing but a stream of vowels. Even the way French/French thoughts find expression in language seems to be ornate, indirect, and convoluted. When I visit Paris next year, I think I will speak English.
8
The brain drain from France is real, and Quebec is not the top destination.
Every year thousands of well-trained workforce (medical field, economics, hard sciences, Humanities) seek better job opportunities outside France.
Unemployment (at around 9%) in France is one reason, but the two main factors that make young professionals leave are rigid, hierarchical work structures that stifle innovation and creativity, and persistent discriminations against third or fourth generation French citizens who have the "wrong" names, or pratice the "wrong" faith.
Main countries of choice for French expatriates: England (before Brexit!), USA, Canada, Australia, Germany, Dubai.
35
Figures show that tens of thousands of young French people have moved to NZ, as well, on working holiday visas, skilled work visas and so on. This has really accelerated in the last few years. Here in Auckland, you hear French being spoken in the street and in shops literally every day. (I speak French myself so I am absolutely certain that it is French that I am hearing.) Young French people serve us in shops and cafes, throng beaches and campsites, and can be found everywhere, up and down the country. Of two written applications in the last week to rent our flat, one was from a young professional couple (banker and engineer) from France. It's quite a phenomenon.
9
Canada remains bi-lingual,even in the Western Provinces. So what if Montreal adds a little Foreign flavor just north of NYC? Vive la Difference!
10
"Mr. Legault also made it clear that while he wanted to reduce the number of immigrants coming to Quebec, that most certainly did not apply to the nation that gave the world pain au chocolat."
Are immigrants welcomed from only "select" countries? Do Mr. Legault's beliefs parallel those of Trump?
12
No. He would also like immigrants to go cities and villages outside Montreal, where need for manpower is great.
4
@nom de guerre
Yes, Legault is certainly pandering to the 'pur laine' sorts.
But it's the federal government that actually controls immigration, Trudeau already having told Legault non/no as well as turning him down flat re: taking over the federal government's taxing power (and yes/oui, I have over-simplified what's going on, just to make the general point).
Immigrants are welcome from any country, but must come with enough desirable traits to qualify based on our points system.
Refugees, on the other hand, are accepted on the basis of need. Two completely different systems.
Pretty civilized, eh?
19
Canada is commonly described as "Two Solitudes". This is reinforced by French immersion programs in the Anglophone public school systems which teach European French. After 5 years of Ontario high school French with top marks, I found Quebec French incomprehensible, even though European visitors complement me on my French. They often have the same trouble with Quebec French.
That said, it takes some ear training to understand Scot's English, to say nothing of Cockney.
26
As a native, over the years I have seen countless of our french cousins move here, often in my work place, with high hopes. They usually find it refreshing to witness the simplicity of peoples' approach, the lack of a rigid social structure. To see people being friendly to their boss and openly chat with strangers is often an adjustment.
I can also attest to the macho aspect. I follow the situation of women in the work place in France, and cringe - like looking at commercials from the 60s. They seem so far behind (désolée cousins!) in gender equality and work-family balance, I could never imagine living there. I've also had to politely remind new colleagues that no, one cannot approach women here in that manner, that it is considered inappropriate etc.
In the last few years I've also seen many families immigrate here, to obtain better services for their disabled children, for example for autism, where the structure and approach here is lightyears ahead of what we see across the pond.
And yes I admit it's a bit of a local hobby to grumble about our cousins' snobbishness and constant complaining. But hey, we still love them. sorta.
Now if only we can get them to say 'courriel' instead of 'email'.
251
@Rose "Now if only we can get them to say 'courriel' instead of 'email'."
It's more than a little ironic that the Québecois say "courriel" and the French "mail" or "email" to refer to email. You would think that Québec would be more prone to adopting American words than the French are. Conversely, it's a bit odd that the French have eschewed the word "courriel" since it is the official French term for email. "Official" in the sense that the word was adopted by the august Académie française as the French equivalent of "email."
39
@Jonathan Winn Quebec has a whole government department devoted to Quebec French, including developing new terminology. In general, l'Office québécois de la langue française is quick to respond to changes in usage, technology etc.
Both the Quebec and federal governments have extensive, free, online resources for French and English terminology. "Courriel" was accepted by the federal translation bureau in the late 1990s. As a French translator, I've noticed its increasing use in Europe but still have to check with my clients which of the half dozen terms for "email" they prefer.
13
@Jonathan Winn The
french language in Europe has been assaulted by several tongues over the centuries whereas in Quebec only one...so which is more authentic?
12
I don't get a vote in the matter, but I am all for increasing the current trickle of French immigration to Canada by a factor of 10. I think it's great.
I can only wish Louisiana would embrace it's Francophone past more ardently, and maybe implore the federal government to wave through French immigrants a little easier! The only French spoken is out in the countryside, and the amount of people that use French (or at least what we call French here) on a daily basis decreases every year.
205
Great idea!
Louisiana should try to attract French immigrants and even help with visas (like a tax concession to attract business)
It would revitalize the place. And inject new energy. If would also help Louisiana as a tourist destination: The more French it is the more interesting to visitors.
Are you listening, State of Louisiana?
33
@No Chaser
Whoa, whoa, whoa, be very careful what you wish for!
8
@No Chaser, I think you immigrants from France would be equally surprised because the origin of the french of Louisianna is Acadian...even Quebeckers have a hard time with Acadian.
20
To this article's writer: the French and Quebecers no longer share a common language exactly. The French language has evolved over a few centuries in each place, and are fairly different. My son was raised in Ontario and took French each year in school. He was pretty fluent. When we traveled to Quebec City when he was 14, he had great difficulty communicating - because Ontario schools taught modern Parisian French, not Quebec's French. I always thought that was odd, but it is what it is.
15
@Chris I am a bilingual Canadian. The 'French' one learns in Anglophone Canada leaves students laughably short of fluency, or even proficiency. There is no such thing as 'Parisian' or 'Quebec' French. There is French, with regional accents, as is the case with English. Think of someone from the US deep south and someone from Lancashire. Same language, different accents and expressions.
2
And for those of us who are "fluent" in "Franglais", but struggle with perfect French, Quebec is a glorious place to visit and practice the language without constant judgement. No one blinks an eye if you forget a word and replace it with English - they do it amongst themselves - and as mentioned, if you accidently use "tu" instead of "vous" people don't sneer, scoff and ignore you. I still love France, of course, but Quebec Province offers a wonderfully open, friendly (and closer) option for Francophiles. And the countryside is heavenly.
317
@EMH Nothing could be further from the truth. In my experience, having lived in Montreal, you're better off just speaking English than trying to speak French. The Quebecois are far more judgmental, intolerant, and exasperated with English people trying to speak French than the people in France are.
44
@EMH
*judgment
Sorry, the irony was irresistible. :D
9
@Mark B Sorry Mark B but I have to disagree with you on this one. It is unfortunate that you had a bad experience in Quebec but your case is not representative. And many Quebeckers will testify that the French can be judgmental even towards other native French speakers with a different accent.
27
We've spent most of our family vacations in Quebec--Montreal, Quebec Cite, even Sherbrooke and Megantic, for thirty years. My kids wished to go to Disneyworld in FLA, but we loved Crepe Dindon at Thanksgiving, and Cafe au lait in any weather. I aloudread Parkman's account of the Battle of Quebec on the Plains of Abraham when my kids were 10 & 12, and I told them how Bendect Arnold attacked up the Rivere Chaudiere, lost and was imprisoned in the CEGEP or community college, a former monastery. (As a community college teacher, I loved this...and CEGEP's being required for university entrance.)
11
@Alan Powers
You should come to the beautiful Maritime Provinces.
3
Anglo-Quebecer here. Seems like this kind of article was made for me given my firsthand perspective on the matter. I’m aware that what I’m about to expound may mirror the OP’s findings, but that proves the necessary homework’s been done.
Firstly, just because you embody a common koine doesn’t mean it’ll engender an immaculate union. That’s like saying America, Brazil and Mexico are identical to Britain, Portugal and Spain respectively.
Secondly, Quebec is vastly more individualistic than France. Yes, the linguistic schism between the majority Anglos and minority Francos nationwide means the latter can be more collectivistic, but aside from that, Quebecers in general think more for themselves. Again, sociocultural differences that don’t make one objectively better than the other.
Thirdly, Quebec’s proximity to English regions means that there’s more of a cosmopolitan vibe in larger municipalities (Montreal being a prime example). Besides the expected linguistic confluences, this proximity between the two cultures has begotten an environment that, although European in parts, is unequivocally North American in nature. Heck, there’s even talks about bringing back the MLB in Montreal.
So yes, if you expect Quebec to be France 2.0, prepare to be let down. Province’s its own beast, so the culture shock can be mighty sizable if you don’t put your nose to the grindstone by understanding what makes the Lovely Province noteworthy.
Hope I’ve provided some useful context for you all.
41
@Michel
Yes Michel. you are 100% right that Quebeckers (and Acadians and Franco-Ontarians , in fact, all Canadians) think for themselves. When it's minus 40 out and winter lasts for six or seven months, and there is nobody around for miles you have to learn to make things work and co-operate to survive. Also that is probably why our single payer health care system works so well. Compassion and co-operation.
11
@mike L Wise of you to have brought up those other Francophone communities. Lord knows how many times I had to correct others who think Quebecois and French Canadian are interchangeable. Yes, they embody French roots, but so do the other groups you mentioned.
Also, given that Canada is bigger and less populated than France (which can also contribute to a feeling of culture shock for those used to densely inhabited regions if geography's taken into account), I'm hardly surprised that self-reliance is a major component of Canadian identity. Got to be your own chum!
6
The pastry is a kouign amann, as is the name of the bakery, not "kouing."
8
10 or 12 years ago I took my then 13 year-old son to Quebec on a short vacation. On the drive in, we stopped at a park for a meal at an art museum. It turned out to overlook the St. lawrence, spectacularly.
On the way back to the car, I thought that the "...park..." must be The Plains of Abraham, where the Brits beat the French in 1759. So, I asked two young men having a beer whther that was so-in passable French-
"...messiuers, est-ce que la place de la battaillie?.."
Oui, they say and ask if I am American.
I nod and they speak English. One of them looks around the park and says "
"...Yes. The English. They marched at night. We were surprised..."-
Like it had happened 10 years ago-to him. I had a similar experience 30 some years ago, when an Englishman was explain the Battle of Hastings to me, from the spot where Haral had posted his battle flag and died.
84
And they come down to New Hampshire to shop at our outlet stores.
17
@Gene S We once hosted a French exchange student from Bordeaux. When we asked what she'd like to do, she said she had heard of this wonderful place called "les outlets!" We went, of course. What fun it was to see an American phenomenon through her eyes.
7
$17,000 for a Master's Degree?? France, here I come!!
87
And this is already very expensive in France ;)
4
I was shocked she had to pay anything. When I was in school in Quebec, 13 years ago, University was free in France.
1
@Lj 17 grand is expensive for France (and most of Europe). It was probably at a private university of some sort. In France and most countries in the EU, a master's degree at a public university is either free or just a few hundred euros per semester.
The sole exception is UK whose public universities switched over to the North American tuition model in the late 90's.
2
Gosh, even Canada suffers from pangs of obsession with "cultural integration." Try a little celebration of diversity. Each brings something unique that makes the whole.
1
@Tortuga Do I need to point out the irony of an American trying to lecture Canada on embracing diversity? I think not.
32
@TortugaLes Quebecois fought off the US invasions of 1776 and in 1812 before there was a Canada.
8
Is it necessary to speak French in Montreal? I ask sincerely and with no snobbery intended. Does not speaking french limit you?
@barnaby33 Having been born and raised here, I would say unequivocally, "Oui !" (Yes :-).
17
@barnaby33 yes very much so because for most jobs you need to be bilingual!
11
@barnaby33 the official language in Quebec is french but there are also a lot of English speaking people. Montreal is split kinda 50 50 on the language front and we all have to speak both to get anywhere most people who cant usually leave the province which is why quebec is having an issue attracting companies or people to invest/move there the language debate is a bit hostile.
17
Vive la différence!!
6
"Quebecers" - That would be Quebeckers to you, thank you very much.
5
What a comment that one has to leave France for Canada to find a decent job. This is a kind of brain drain that will only leave France poorer and Quebec richer. Viva la immigration.
10
No so much with examples of how the immigrant French might be bringing some interesting things to Quebec, eh, other than bad feelings toward the old country and (very fine) amusing self-mocking tunes?
Also, many years ago saw a French Quebecois film shown with French subtitles and, at the time, thought it a kind of snotty tweak; was later told by both Canadians and French it is because there's a lot of dialect differences in the language, so it may have meant to be helpful rather than obnoxious. I have no way of knowing, knowing neither form of French. I have since, however, seen English films with English subtitles, most notably from the right-on red Ken Loach.
Montreal, though, it's the coolest -- anyone would want to live there.
6
@Surrender Dumiak
Except right now, in winter.
Although we have once again turned the corner. The sun is now high enough in the sky to warm and Spring is coming.
3
I love the contrast between French and Canadian. Quebecois and Yanks are so much alike that it is easy to skirt the minor cultural differences that distinguish us. On the other hand, the major cultural speedbumps separating us and the French or the British are both quaint and fun.
Since half of the USA used to be New France, while most of the midwest was part of Quebec, many if not most Anglo Americans have a sense that our four centuries of old world rivalries have long since decomposed.
9
"and once called a Quebecois girl I liked, ‘my little baby'"
He probably called her 'my little cream puff' (mon petit chou), a very traditional endearment. But not apparently to #MeToo.
7
@Kai
"Chou" means cabbage; "choux" is the puff pastry.
But he probably called her his little baby... and got the reported response.
8
@Kai Literally "My little cabbage".
4
Yes we have English words in our everyday language but our use of English has declined in the last twenty or thirty years. The reverse is true in France. Parking, pressing, slip, presse people, post, email, customiser, penalty, or adding "er" to an English word like "skyper" or "liker" are some examples of words often spoken in France. People who say these words or expressions are considered "cool".
18
I am native of Quebec and naturalized American.
When people tell me my French is not “ real”, I ask them if they speak like British do. Same difference.
Spanish speakers in theUS don’t speak Castillion either. There are regional differences for languages, each of which are “ real”.
132
@Pinky
Quebec French is, if anything, less evolved and therefore more correct. It is the French who have adopted dozens of anglicisms instead of perfectly usable French words (parking? J'ai mon voyage!) and it is the Quebecois who still say "l'etat c'est moi" the same way Louis XIV said it.
7
The bottom line here, it seems to me, is that French immigrants think native Quebecois are too Canadian. I have to observe that when you emigrate to take advantage of better conditions in another country, it behooves you to assimilate, not to whine that "it's not the same..."
120
@Maura Driscoll
I agree with you but like many cultures with imperialist pasts like both France and Britain, they don't see it as whining they see it as instructive.
6
To a lesser degree, a good population of young French have taken residence in Brklyn and Upper East Side. While there are definitely cliques and cultural differences, we all seem to get along quite well. Maybe it's more international a city
10
Why use "quebecer" when it is common knowledge that Québécois sounds much better?
Having been abandoned by French nobility after the conquest, Québécois population lived in isolation for hundreds of years under an Anglo régime with similarities to apartheid. Survival came from religion and "la revanche des berceaux", a high natality rate which kept them as a majority in Québec.
The language remained close to old patois from Normandie, full of regionalisms, and additions that would prevent the conqueror who spoke academic French to fully understamd.
Today, due to the diversity in immigration and influence in media, the severity of the local accent has been minimized.
And for some who note that movies in French from Québec require subtitles in common French, movies in French parisian patois also require subtitles. Their "caisse" for car, "clope" for cigarette, "clebe" for dog, "nana" for girl are as enigmatic as our char (charriot) for car, chauffer (to heat) for drive a car, and blonde for girlfriend.
The Québécois is proud and rejects the subtle condescendant attitude of some of their European cousins.
27
... or maybe they just don’t understand? I see in the US movies or interviews spoken in English yet subtitled because a Scottish or Nigerian accent is too much for North American ears not used to accents. Same difference?
9
@Robert B. Because not everyone who lives in Quebec is Québecois. Roughly 20 percent of the population is anglophone or allophone and even the francophone population is not uniformly Québecois with all the immigration from former French colonies since the 80s.
5
@Robert B.There was no conquest, after another skirmish on the Plains, France decided to look elsewhere in lieu of the growing anglostate to the south. The just quit politically the "few acres of snow", then the revenge of the cradle took over....
We tried to arrange a marriage service in Washington, D.C. for an American bride (whose French was quite good), and a groom from Grenoble. The groom’s family and party spoke-several regional varieties of modern French, the Brides party had varying degrees of competence. The only priest we could find was a Canadian. As soon as he spoke the first sentence, all the French stiffened with barely restrained mirth. It was, one told me, “like watching Depardieu in The Return of Martin Guerre, but with fewer vowels and more garlic”.
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@Robert Goodell That's droll.
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@Robert Goodell
Predictable.
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Is this news? You don’t hear the British tripping about America or Canada or Australia or New Zealand etc because they know that In the same way the cultures are different due to regional differences they also evolved from each other. Why do the French think they’re so special?
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@Mat
Really? Ask the Australians. Those I know have to deal with British snickers about accents and expressions.
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"Also surprising to her were Quebec expressions such as '“ma blonde”'... Huh. Has she never heard the old French ditty, "Aupres de ma blonde, qu'il fait beau, fait beau, fait beau?"
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In his book ‘La mort du Français’ (the death of the French language), French writer Claude Duneton predicted, only partly tongue-in-cheek, that some time in the not too distant future, English would become the lingua franca of France, and French would be relegated to quaint literature and cultural clubs. He further predicted that Québec, having lived centuries surrounded and vastly outnumbered by anglophones, will be the sole European derived society left in the world still speaking French (or at least Franglais) as an official language
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And 20 years later after this publication, how does this prediction sound to you? Worth anything? I think not
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@Andrew Fesse He was half joking and half not. He started his book saying how, long ago, people in southwest France would say, purely in jest, that some day their language, Occitan, would be virtually dead. It now is, replaced by modern French.
As globalization takes hold and English gains ever more dominance everywhere, one sees that the youth of once reluctance France can deal quite well with English, along with the rest of European youth. This does not mean the end of those languages any time soon but it does reduce them further to secondary regional tongues. A score of human languages are lost per year. Vibrant cultures, such as France, should be able to hang on to theirs for a good while to come
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@anwesend
Let's hope not. I never tire of hearing people speak French...English, less so.
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As a one time Canadian with kids studying in Montreal, I love the 1970’s New York - 1990’s Berlin cheap but sexy vibe i.e. in a world of urban homogeneity, it’s great to have so many independent shops and cafes full of character and friendly people. Thus the attraction of Quebec is not restricted to French nationals or indeed Francophones.
I do cavil, however, at the portrayal of Quebec as having a mono cultural French background. The flag of Montreal also includes the shamrock and both it and Quebec City had large Irish populations in the 19th century and from hospitals to schools and universities and local politics there is tangible history of what has made up modern Quebec. Uniquely the Irish were both Catholic and English speaking so distinct from the two main communities at the time. Perhaps this ability to embrace and benefit from others in a French speaking identity is what has made Quebec what it is.
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Interesting detail about the flag.
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I'm a huge Montreal fan. I have one son in University there; my second will be joining him there in the Fall. As someone who does not speak a lick of French I sincerely appreciate the bilingual nature of Montreal. That said, I will be taking French lessons this summer in hopes I will be a little less awkward on my increasingly frequent visits to Montreal.
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@LexDad what about the Habs?
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As a French-American dual national, I tried the Québec experience during my youth with a desire to find a place where I could reconcile my two identities.
After nearly a year in Montréal, I came to the conclusion that Québec possesses a distinctive cultural identity springing from centuries of strife with the Anglo overlords who posed a chronic threat to the inhabitants' cultural and linguistic links to old France. THIS does not reflect what I personally experienced, for I never felt the weight of oppression from either the United States or France in my desire to live and speak French in France.
St Jean Baptiste Day parade, fleur-de-lys everywhere…. a chasm separates France from Québec, really.
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@" a distinctive cultural identity springing from centuries of strife with the Anglo overlords who posed a chronic threat to the inhabitants' cultural and linguistic links to old France." Mais non! Quebec got rid of the rule by the Catholic church and then burst out in a creative frenzy in literature, music. movies, cuisine etc. Nothing to do with the Scots who used to rule Montreal.
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@AE Times have changed but not too long ago, about 40 years, it was not rare to be told «to speak white» meaning to speak English. The pressure towards English is huge: just imagine 7 millions being surrounded by 330 000 millions french or spanish individuals.
That being said, I would not move anywhere. Being far from any war zone is a major plus. Talk to refugees. Being close to the country that has Trump as a Prez is not. It is only temporary though. Sorry for having ruined your day.
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Too bad Canadian immigration is pretty much closed to Americans (unless you have $10 million to invest; B.C. stands for "Bring Cash"). Canada is such a nice balance of Old World culture and compassion and New World economic vitality.
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@Tom It looked to me about a mil, although I think you can get in if you have a thriving business or a needed skill, such as being a health careprovider. You've got to show you're not just some desperate cancer patient who wants to get free medical care without paying into the system first, which seems reasonable.
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@Tom Your information about immigration being closed to Americans is wrong, in addition to having kind of a Fox News flavor to it. A desirable skill or degree, a job offer, or relatives in Canada can also get you in. Students from the U.S. who graduate from Canadian universities also have an easy path to residence and citizenship. I have two children at the Univ. of Manitoba, beneficiaries of a tuition reciprocity agreement between Minnesota and Manitoba, who will be probably be living and working in Canada after they graduate - and getting most of their tuition refunded by doing so.
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@Andrew. It's actually a bit complicated, and relies on a point system, of which a needed skill is only one component. Other components, for example, are age (20-29 gets the most points, over 45 is zero points), level of education, language ability, second language ability, whether or not you're married (spouses also can earn points in some categories, boosting the point total), years of work experience in and outside of Canada, whether you went to school in Canada, etc. I've never tried, so I don't know actually how hard it is in practice, but the system is not simple and requires you to be, actually, pretty highly educated, skilled, experienced, with good language abilities, perhaps some pre-existing connection to Canada (education, work, sibling), with preference given to the young.
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I live in New York City. I studied French in school.
Whenever I try to speak French, Spanish comes out of my mouth.
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@New World
Sorry. Perhaps if you want to speak French, you should visit Mexico.
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@New World I lived in Montreal twice for a total of ten years and despite having a couple of years of college French and some subsequent lessons I was never able to get past the simple fact that I often couldn't tell where one word ended and the next began. My mistake, my francophone friends told me, was that I fell in love with an English girl. The language of Quebec is best learned in bed!
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"an unemployment rate of about 5.5 percent, compared with more than 9 percent in France"
France, one of Europe's socialist paradises, has an almost double-digit unemployment rate? How is that even possible? It's almost as if the French have no incentive to work.
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@Ed L. And in socialist Germany, the unemployment rate is 3.3%. The unemployment rate has to do with much more than "socialism" or "capitalism."
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@Ed L. Quebec is arguably more socialist than France. There were 6 notable parties vying for seats at the last election, and every single one except for the Conservative Party is left of center, and more liberal than the US Democratic party.
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@Ed L.
Quebec, has excellent social benefits; support for free daycare, generous maternity and paternity leave for new parents; I believe for up to 6 months paid leave, and of course Single Payer Medicare for all.
Top notch University's, McGill to name one. I went to the Neuro in Montreal for back surgery in 2003, and received more advanced care for far less money than I would have in Vermont. I still travel to Montreal for advanced dental care, (an APICO procedure) and even took my son up there for a complicated root canal.
I've also paddled some glorious rivers in Quebec, the Moise, Dumoine and done extended ski trips in the Chic-Chocs. A truly amazing place.
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A common language? The French in France, let alone the French in the Francophonie, French speakers around the world, do not speak the same language. Often on French television, TV5 in the US, Canadian French requires French subtitles, even for the French in France. Along its tortuous history, France has produced a language that even for the French in France is still a kind of mystery. The problem of transferring phonetics to writing and viceversa, is central to the education system, dictation takes an enormous amount of time and represents a major obstacle to high school graduates who want to access university-level education.
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@Lara I have great trouble understanding Cockney speakers of English. In films, I'm always glad when there are captions. I enjoy the cleverness of Cockney speakers, though, and I'd soon catch up if I lived in their vicinity. I'm sure these French speakers will soon learn how to speak in Quebec and will acquire accents that their French relatives will find strange.
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The problem in Quebec is not that the ACCENT differs, but vocabulary, idiomatic expressions, syntax, etc.
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Some say that Québécois French is actually closer to the older, more pure version and that the France French is more evolved, influenced by other languages over the years. I think Provençal, a very old language, sounds much closer to Québec French.
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