What can be said of a church organization who claim to represent the will of God but disown the very Word from Him, the Bible?
10
Today Pope Francis stated that those who criticize the Church are "the friends, cousins and relatives of the devil.”
My only response would be to quote a certain Grateful Dead song.
18
Has there ever been an organization more hypocritical than the Catholic Church? It is the largest gay organization in the world. They have not come to grips with it not being 1950 anymore, or 1350, for that matter. Along with the almost daily news articles about child abuse, these kind of stories just turn more people off from sending their kids to a Catholic school, or even to a Catholic church anymore. Can you blame them?
The Archdiocese of Indianapolis has plenty of sex abuse scandals of their own. A quick search will reveal plenty, along with the coverups.
24
With internet miss deeds are found out quicker now.
View God keeps testing us with marginalized groups, "What you do onto least, do onto me." GLBT present day American fixation on who they love.
Feel great sadness, with hope for Paul on road to Damascus in their lives.
2
It is heartbreaking to see these good people vilified and chased out of their faith community. Although I left the church long ago, I never truly appreciated how deeply and intrinsically evil the church "fathers" are, until they started this latest gay purge. Instead of blaming themselves for enabling years of abuse, in their time-tested fashion they want to shift blame to anyone but themselves. This has nothing to do with following any kind of biblical prescription; it has everything to do with a maniacal and morbid obsession with other people's sexuality. Shame on the Catholic Church!
24
I attended this school, as did my brother, mother, father, 10 aunts and uncles, and over 2 dozen cousins. This isnt anything new, its just finally getting light. When I attended, I saw teachers having extra marital affairs (2 with each other), I saw a teacher and student relationship, divorces from staff, and the dean of students, divorced, living with a woman he was not married to. But these people were not kicked out, they werent shunned and publicly rebuked. This school is a disgrace and anyone who still supports this school after the way they have ignored their staffs indiscretions and attcked Shelly are hypocrites and cowards.
27
The Catholic Church is a corrupt institution. I state this baldly and more people should do so.
20
Gay priests should just pack up their things from the rectory and go live with a sibling, friend, parent, or any sympathetic person while they look for another job. They don't belong in the Catholic Church. (They are probably too good for it.) It takes courage and grace, but they should go where they are loved openly.
10
Isn't Archbishop Thompson from Louisville, KY where he was a priest for a lot of years? Does he go after Catholic school employees who are divorced and remarried, or using birth control, or fornicating, or committing adultery? What kind of priest was Thompson when he worked for the Archdiocese of Louisville? Anybody know?
7
It should be noted that Cardinal Timothy Dolan and the RCC long lobbied against the Child Victims Act that was recently signed into law by New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo.
Shame on Dolan and all RCC church elders for protecting the abusers over the abused.
Shame on Dolan and shame on Republican lawmakers who suppressed this bill for over a decade.
Shame on anyone that stills supports this corrupt to it’s core cult.
Now it’s time for every single State in our Union to follow suit and pass similar legislation.
I’m thankful I got out young and relatively unscathed. I’ll never forgive the RCC the physical and sexual abuse done to my family members at the hands of it’s priests and nuns.
https://buffalonews.com/2019/02/14/child-victims-act-may-prompt-naming-of-more-priests-with-abuse-allegations/
https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2019/02/14/us/ap-us-xgr-child-victims-act.html
14
Inthe last week alone, we have learned of pervasive rape and abuse of deaf and deaf mute students by catholic priests on two continents, known to the Vatican at least back to 2010, known to Pope Francis at least as far back as 2015. The church tried to pin it on one priest, but police now have a cardinal in custody, to be tried.
We also learned of longtime Vatican guidelines for priests who have fathered children, that sticky vow of celibacy obviously notwithstanding.
The state of New Jersey joined the parade of states outing another couple of hundred predator priests as longtime sexual abusers of minors.
And yet these pink men in red dresses continue to expel members of their church doing god’s work for nonconformity. What does the bible say about such dispicable hypocrisy? “Jesus wept.”
18
When is the Church going to give the pedofile priests and those who cover for them a similar treatment. In my way of thinking two adults of the same sex in a consensual relationship is not a problem. But what is a crisis is are those who prey upon those who can’t proctect themselves. How can the members remain when their children are at risk?
9
The Catholic Church has been doing allot worse for a very long time
6
My question: What happened to Pope Francis?
6
And to think of all the unwed mothers who were shunned and sent away to homes because of sin and shame.....
15
Whati s new about that, "Breaking People's Hearts" for the Roman Catholic has been doing that for 2,000 years!
6
In the Immortal Words of Monty Python-
"...Nobody ever expects the Spanish Inquisition!...."
9
Just when you think the pope can not get anymore disengaged from the problem, today he made an odious, vile personification of the ACCUSERS as either children or relatives of the devil in staggering attempt to avoid the sickening truth of the situation and the abject failure of the "church" to humbly recognize the cancer from the top to the bottom of the hierarchy. How can anyone accept him as the Vicar of Christ ! I can not. That is why I left.
10
Oh, the criminal hypocrisy of the Catholic Church.
This is ripe: "Employees of Catholic schools are expected to live in compliance with church teaching."
What about the priests who raped children? Were they not supposed to live in compliance with church teaching?
And yet.
They're still in the church!
Many were left in the church, for DECADES, or shuttled from church to church, when their own bishops and cardinals knew they were attacking children.
Were the bishops and cardinals in "compliance" with church teaching then? Is it part of church teaching to look away from a devastated child, a child who was violated at the hands of a priest?
The church is filled with gay priests, which is against church teachings, and they look away.
But when one of their employees is gay, they're fired.
How does that make the remotest amount of sense?
What about all their priests who have attacked nuns and impregnated women, many by rape?
Is that in compliance with church teachings?
It's not?
Then why did the church look away?
The church repels me.
I am an ex-Catholic.
How anyone could still belong to the most corrupt organization on earth, that condones child rape, is astonishing.
How can you still go to mass? How can you give money to this crime syndicate? The Catholic Church makes the mafia look tame because of their continual attacks on children, and the cover-up aided and abetted by bishops and cardinals and the pope.
Shame on the church. Get ready for hell.
13
Read the New York magazine cover story, "Gay Priests and the Self-Loathing of the Catholic Church," by Andrew Sullivan. Jan. 21-Feb. 3 issue. An absolutely eye-opening article.
7
The Catholic Church has always been a homoerotic, predatory pedophile organization. Given they have done such a great job cleaning house over the years, I think we can get rid of the FBI and police and turn over policing the mob to mobsters and drug dealers.
Just so long as people follow the church's teaching that the earth is the center of the universe. And keep those women out of the priesthood, it will confuse the nuns they are raping.
5
The Catholic Church needs to remember who put them here and get on their knees and pray for forgiveness.
4
When the church is drenched in child sexual abuse and coverup and the constant vilifying of LGBT people, why do we continue to pretend the Catholic Church has any relevance in modern society?
12
The hypocrisyt is incredible. The Catholic priesthood is rife with homosexual and pedophile priests. They pretend this isn't so and then fire lay people in their employ who are homosexual. And it is very true if the Church ousted every priest who is homosexual, there would barely be a skeleton crew available.
5
Here's an excerpt from a story a few years ago, at
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-bullock/roman-catholic-jacuzzi-the-pink-elephant-in-the-vatican_b_3362629.html
in which Michael Bullock wrote:
In October 2010 I discovered the secret retreat where these [Vatican] priests meet in private once a year to let their hair down and be openly gay together for the week. I was not on a mission to find and expose such a retreat; I booked a cabin with the aim of being alone to concentrate on writing, and it happened to be at the same place and time as the priests. ... As a gay former Catholic altar boy, I could not believe both the luck and horror of this discovery: Here I was, in the heart of the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church, face to face with gay men whose teachings give a moral backbone to homophobia and discrimination against their fellow gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, men who uphold a value system that made me feel terrible as a teenager and made the process of admitting to myself that I’m gay torture because of its unbearable moral dilemma: Repress your sexuality or be damned! I immediately ... wrote down my experience with the priests as it was happening. Roman Catholic Jacuzzi is the document of my weekend with these men...
...
The gay priests I met told me that they estimated that the majority of their peers were gay. The gay men who are attracted to the priesthood are those who were brought up in the homophobic culture of the church.
10
We are slowly learning that the Catholic Church is rotten to the core. This rot has two roots. First, the Church claims falsely that we are all sinners corrupted by proxy in the Garden of Eden by Satan disguised as a serpent. Second, it claims that death is an illusion and that in fact we live forever after death, either in Heavenly bliss or Hellish pain depending on whether or not we accept the Church's offer of salvation. The core premise of its business plan is that alone has the power to save us from the hell that we deserve. "Outside the Church" we are told, "there is no salvation." Over two thousand years this claim has enabled it to deceive and control billions of people, becoming exceedingly rich and powerful in the process. Power corrupts, however, because the powerful are generally in denial of reality. By aligning itself with a false God of its own creation, the Church has embraced the seeds of its own destruction. Now that its evil deeds are becomng manifest its days are numbered. There needs to be global evaluation of the role of this Church and other organizations based on similar business plans, which as this article points out, place a totally fictitious and hearbreaking load on humanity.
8
It is curious to see the US Catholic Church so eager to get rid of one of its lay spiritual advisors to young people. In Ireland most people won't leave their children in the care of priests any more.
4
The Roman Church is a cult, pure and simple. The stated goals and claims are entirely belied--not by "a few bad apples" and not dismissible with, "Well, nobody's perfect"--by an international leadership that works, day in and day out, against what the cult claims to stand for.
"A few bad apples" was credible in Boston in 2002, but with today's revelations about the international conspiracy to abuse deaf children exposed in today's Washington Post, it's more like, "there are a few good apples.... I suppose."
Those who stay are choosing to stay in a cult. They are prioritizing sentiment over integrity.
4
The Catholic Church has a history of preying on weakness with wickedness. Regardless, Mr. Bruni has an ax to grind that is only focused on gender and sexuality, dismissing the larger perplexing issues of duplicity and evil. No ablution is coming for either, despite this watershed moment.
2
The recently deceased bishop of Madison WI, Robert Morlino, did exactly the same thing. He forced the firing of the long time music director for St. Andrew's in Verona and forced the clergy to read a statement, without comment, from the pulpit at Sunday mass denouncing homosexuality.
He was a deeply sick and troubled man, known for his alcohol addiction, and many in the diocese are hoping for a sea change with whoever gets the new appointment.
3
(Revised) What good the Catholic Church has done is far outweighed by the damage it still inflicts on its true believers. It is sad to think of all the damage and ruin it has inflicted on defenseless children. At least adults can exercise choice and flee.
3
If the Church truly barred men (and women) with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies,” there would be no Church.
I attended Catholic grade school, high school and college. My husband attended Catholic grade school and a "seminary preparatory" high school that worked to recruit future priests. We both encountered more gay nuns, priests, brothers and lay Catholic educators than we can even count.
I realize there are millions of people who still look to the Catholic Church as their spiritual rock, but for the life of me I don't get it. There are certainly many Catholics out there doing good in the world but the organization itself is toxic, hypocritical and WAY past its expiration date as a moral authority on anything.
7
Religions can't change their doctrines or their interpretations. That would be admitting that they were wrong previously.
p.s. Why do you support tax deductions for contributions to certain religions?
Hypocrisy.
If the Catholic Church does not soon leave the 14th century, it will not survive the 21st.
2
Thanks to Frank Bruni for his incredible, disturbing story of Church hypocrisy and bigotry. While the Pope proclaims no animus towards LGBT individuals, there are still some of his underlings who are still operating in the Dark Ages. Such narrow minded clergy need to be sent on a permanent retreat. And the Church doctrine here needs a remake.
1
Your hearts are just now breaking, really? That's kind of like saying you loved Trump until he tapped emergency powers to fund his wall.
3
I am trying to be compassionate, and I feel for the individuals, but I don't understand why anyone has ever expected differently from the Catholic Church. It's part of the church's identity. It's one thing to go to church and stay on the sidelines, but if you work for the church, can you really be surprised? Of course it's not right, but it's not a surprise. I wish people would just leave the church.
2
This is saddening and maddening.
In my archdiocese we are in a protected bubble because we don't often hear about people getting fired for marrying their same-sex partner. (There was one case at a non-Archdiocesan Catholic school that dismissed a vice principal for this, however. Another case involved a woman who married her longtime partner and was asked to keep it quiet). I don't pretend to minimize the pain this has caused and of course, nowhere is perfect.
My children have gone to parochial schools since Pre-K and one graduated from a Catholic high school where the next sibling attends. Our experience has been very positive and very inclusive (I am including students, faculty and staff here). This year, the primary/middle school put up rainbow signs around the campus about inclusivity and being a community that welcomes everyone. The LGBTQ group at the high schools receive school funds for the club. There are out trans students who are celebrated. There are faculty and staff who are in same-sex marriages.
Thank you Mr. Bruni, for bringing attention to this.
1
For to many years, the leaders of the Catholic church have behaved Trumpian. I am a born and raised Catholic male, age 61 years. I spent way to many years in Catholic schools. It always felt that the clerical leaders of our parish answered to no one. From the Nun's who ran the school, to the priests who gave confession. I was diagnosed, later in life, with ADD. As a child, I'm sure it was ADHD. Therefore, I was less than favored by the Nun's. I understand that. I also earned it. However, in no way were they inclined to actually help me. They were far more inclined to punish me. In retrospect, it seems that that the church is far more inclined to sadistic behavior than what they considered abhorrent sexual behavior. I am quite sure that in many cases it was (and is) intertwined.
I had a cherished Aunt who donated her life to the service of God as a Nun. She served more than 50 years and rose in her profession to lead a hospital board. Her intelligence was unquestioned. As a youth I was scared to death of her, for obvious reasons. Later in life tho, after having children of my own, I came to cherish her, and her commitment. We became close. She was and still is, the person I admired the most in my life.
I go to church when I feel the need. I don't believe the Catholic Religion represents my understanding of God. I only go the my Catholic church because that is where I feel comfortable. That's where the memories are. Where Mom, Dad, and Sister Adrian Davis LCM visit me.
3
The hope of the Church is in the laity, people like the students Ms Fitzgerald guided to adulthood and who have vociferously spoken out on her behalf. There are so many saints in this world both within and out of the Church, who use their divine gifts of reason and discernment to sort out moral issues. There is great richness - and I don’t mean money- in the Church, and the hierarchy, a product of its own flawed education and formation, can be renewed and reformed by the examples of faith in action. Besides, if everyone leaves, the bad guys win.
1
In these comments you here again and again the refrain "This is why I am no longer a Catholic." I left Catholicism for its hypocrisy long ago. I am still a Christian. I still belong to a church, St. John the Apostle, Metropolitan Community Church, where at each communion you hear the words you do not need to be a member of this church or any church to receive communion." All are welcome here. I find God's enveloping presence in this church.
2
The thing I don't understand is that celibacy is celibacy. I don't believe the vow spells out any exemptions.
Did you read the article? It's mostly about a teacher who was fired for being gay. No celibacy required.
1
It is heart-breaking of the physical and emotional sufferings endured for life by the silent victims under the name of God, Holiness and Church. But, lets not limit the abuses only to the Catholics Church. The Southern Baptist had just tacitly acknowledged the same issue.
The "holier and the purer" of a religious institution exhibits, resulting in being rigid, dogmatic and authoritative, abuses are easier to get away with and to be covered up.
After November 2016, I left my Christian church for good. The recent events only reinforce my view about established religions. I will still follow the teaching of the historical Jesus. Lets be compassionate for all those victimized by the Church.
1
Is this not discrimination against Pat Fitzgerald based on marital status, which is objectively contrary to the law? Is this not shown by the lack of similar action again her colleague Lynn Starkey, who is in a same sex union and wasn't discharged. It was the marital status, one might argue, and not just the sexual orientation, of Pat Fitzgerald which lead to her termination. If I were a judge, not a social worker and sociologist, I might argue that discrimination against persons in a same-sex marriage (or civil union, a quasi-marriage state-recognized form in many instances) is a form of discrimination on the basis of marital status. -Michael Dover, MSSW, Ph.D.
I can still remember, though I was young and unbelievably naïve at the time, thinking how glad I was that the Catholic Church did not insist on denying the truths revealed by science. Little did I know (or care, sadly) then that a lot of this acceptance occurred hundreds of years, and many lives destroyed, after the fact. Not just the willingness, but absolute and adamant resolve, to deny the truth was appalling.
This still continues to this day. Everyone knows that Church teaching on homosexuality is fundamentally flawed and, in truth, is utterly false. A great deal of teaching surrounding sexuality in general is the same.
My own mother was once a novice, and a dear friend of hers stayed in the convent for decades, later leaving (being forced out, really) by ill health and, eventually, marrying a man who had been a priest. All three of them remained faithful Catholics but also stated, flatly, that the Church really knew nothing whatsoever about the reality of marriage, intimacy, and raising children.
It's become abundantly clear that the Church's inability to acknowledge undeniable truth, and to preach based on preconceived notions at complete disconnect from the experience of those living what's being preached about, is going to be its undoing.
It really couldn't happen to a more deserving entity.
5
The men who own and administer the Roman Catholic Church, who view themselves as their god's earthly face, and who view all other Roman Catholics as their children, see "breaking hearts" as irrelevant and immaterial to carrying out what they view as their duties and responsibilities, even if those responsibilities and duties are self created.
As much to the point, Conservative Roman Catholics agree with them, viewing those who don't as potentially apostates, heretics and, certainly sinners.
Not much has changed since the days of the Reformation and Inquisition, excepting names of the Inquisitors. I left Roman Catholicism decades ago. Regardless of the fact that many in my family still adhere to it I have no regret. The degree of neurosis, and even psychosis, exhibited by that institution is frightening.
4
Beliefs are a choice. Love is a choice. Where or whether to attend church is a choice. May I suggest that distressed or former Catholics consider attending services at the United Church of Christ, which are most often Congregational Churches. We don't believe that you need a male intermediary with God. "Whoever you are, wherever you are on life's journey, you are welcome here!"
5
Simple solution: There are two types of enablers of the abuse and criminality. One are the priests, bishops, cardinal(s) etc who enable with their silence, coverup, shifting from one parish to another etc. The other is the millions of church going and church supporting members. They give the money every Sunday and the respect and deference to the abusers that enables them to continue as they have for decades/centuries.
The parishioners need to simply stop going to church and giving donations until the systemic changes are made that will begin to end all of this ie. end celibacy requirement for clergy; allow priests and nuns to marry etc.
2
This is probably one of the most complex issues in the forefront of current events today. Here is my attempt to sort it out, sort of.
The Roman Catholic Church has the absolute right to determine what its precepts are, in regard to acceptance or non of LGBT people. Yes, there is a lot of hypocrisy mixed up in the church around these issues, but those of us outside the Church have no say.
That becomes critically important when we as citizens of the U.S. demand that they stop trying to control social policy, make it confirm to their belief systems. They keep their religious views inside their institution and we keep our opinions about their institution equally to ourselves.
I empathize with all Catholics who are at odds with Church teachings yet want to remain within what they have always known. Me, as a proud Gay Man, I am not mingling with any group that doesn't want me, I'll move to where I am fully accepted.
3
A whole lot of people need to get over the notion that the Catholic Church is the principal source to God's Wisdom. One would have thought that many centuries of corrupt behavior on its part would have made that clear. But apparently not.
Rome in 300 A.D. was a hotbed of religious cults of all kinds and the society was trending in the direction of anarchy. In an attempt to stave off the inevitable, Emperor Constantine picked a cult and made it the state religion, in the hopes of restoring order, which it did, for a time.
1700 years later we're stuck dealing with the consequences.
5
@J Jencks: that is a ridiculous rewriting of history. We have lots of evidence that the Teachings of Christ and of his church go back to His life, death, resurrection and ascension. Not only that, but the teachings are based on the ancient teachings of the Jews. Christianity is actually in many ways the older branch relative to modern rabbinical Judaism, whose distinctive founding documents date back to the second century or later.
Christians suffered centuries of persecution under the Roman Empire and yet people kept becoming Christians. The conversion of Constantine was founded on a solid transformation of Roman society, and, according to tradition, the example of his mother, Helena.
The narrative that Constantine creates Christianity is patently false and disproven by countless contemporary documents.
1
And the modern day Catholic church actually questions why good gay folks are leaving the fold? If it wasn't so much like a bad movie, you can almost parallel the current US Republican party with the church- the hypocrisy & closeted gay secrets can make your head spin. I am speaking from experience- as a young gay man of 18 (in 1979), I was close to entering the priesthood and actually left out of the fear that I may have joined to run away from my identity. Little did i know at the time how many other men were actually doing this- and look how that turned out. While my journey may have been difficult, i do look back and proudly note that I took the higher road. And btw I left the Catholic church around the same time since i could not co exist with the mixed messages- I thank the Lord that i did!
2
The Catholic Church has broken many people's entire lives, not just their lives. I had an elderly relative who had OCD his entire adult life. It started in his teen years during the 1930's and 1940's because of the shame that the Catholic Church instilled in him. He felt unworthy and sinful and he started to go to confession daily and then it just ballooned into OCD. Very sad.
I wish the Catholic Church would just crumble already.
6
@Siobhan I meant to write "The Catholic Church has broken many people's entire lives, not just their hearts."
2
The Edict of Milan was a licensing document: it made Christianity the official, socially acceptable & even pre-eminent faith; an institution to be respected by secular authorities. After centuries of persecution, the EofM amounted to a truce between Christians & non-Christians. In exchange, Christians were to come out of the catacombs, embrace social transparency & set about arriving at consensus & clear formulas for official teachings & practices. The next year, 314, the 1st attempt to agree to basic rules took place in Arles, in the presence of Constantine. This was a kind of test run for the bigger, better-known Ecumenical (meaning "universal," literally "cosmic" -- a rather ambitious designation) Council of Nicea. Travel in those days was arduous. Not many attended the Arles event. Those that did, however, rejected out of hand the idea that clergy were to be drawn from the ranks of people of "impeccable moral character." These clergymen insisted that standards of personal behavior for their colleagues should be low, not high; they branded as a heretic Donatus Magnus, who had argued for a morally upstanding priesthood.
That was not enough. In the same breath, the same participants imposed very strict standards for the laity. Divorce would not be granted even if a spouse caught the other in flagrante. (Adultery is hard to prevent if the original marriage was imposed by parents.)
It's been a disaster ever since. For obvious reasons. Borgias. Schisms. Corruption. Lies. Lies
1
I grew up with Catholicism as my religious education. While it gave me a good understanding of the concept of God it did not paint a very good picture to me of religion. Like aaaaaaany other formal religion it is self serving and separates us from others with a doctrine and RC's are no different than any other,.
Anyone with common sense could see formal religion is not for the individual it is for the conclave. A club.
Putting so much faith in any religious institution is a recipe for disappointment. The belief in God and all that is good in the concept of God is a wonderful thing. It gives us the basics for inclusion, a faith in life itself and the basic tenet of loving ones neighbor. But you believe that the people sitting in the 1st 3 rows at your church aren't there to make a show.... think again:)
1
On the surface, the lawsuit would have no merit, since parochial schools are directly run by the church, and case law has time and again said religious institutions (as opposed to catholic affiliated schools, like universities, and groups like Catholic Charities, where they aren't run directly by the church and also don't hire just Catholics and accept money outside the church) have the right to discriminate with church run things. However, the problem is if the church selectively enforces it, if they allow people who have been divorced, people who are living with someone of the opposite sex they are not married to (assumption is they aren't celibate), or if married using birth control, and don't fire them, then they cannot claim that right, pure and simple, it is like someone claiming to be a conscientious objector over violence yet boxes. The reality is the church hierarchy has turned church teaching on sin to be being LGBT or abortion, same as the evangelicals.
What is amazing is the people who think that because their parish welcomes LGBT people that suddenly this means their church is okay, that the rest doesn't matter, and they are wrong. The church leaders cause a lot of damage to LGBT people, and with each dollar those 'good' people feed to the hierarchy in the US, and the Vatican, they are doing evil. If they want to do something, insist that their pledge money stay with their church alone, enough people do that, and watch what happens.
1
@bill d This is precisely my problem with "progressive" Catholics who insist that they aren't going to be run out of "their" church, because "their" church is inclusive. They are choosing to affiliate themselves with a larger organization that is actively hostile to the very views they profess to value- inclusivity, compassion, tolerance, feminism etc. Ultimately I wish these people would understand that they are suffering from a form of brainwashing, without which such cognitive dissonance would be impossible.
The late Mayor of new York City Ed Koch used to scratch his head over these types of debates. "There are hundreds of churches out there. Join one whose rules you agree with!" If the Catholic Church isn't to your liking, become an Episcopalian. Joining a Church and expecting it to accommodate your sensibilities is immature. Grow up, already.
2
Folks, please read Sam Harris's "Letter to a Christian Nation." Scales will fall from your eyes, superstition will fly away. The real scandal is believing that some unknowable being cares about your sex life, your diet, and your suffering. Take a copy of the book with you to a children's cancer ward.
8
For those of you disillusioned with the Catholic Church - you are all welcome to become Buddhists or Hindus. Doors are always open.
3
@SR My husband and I made the move away from the church years ago. The blatant hypocrisy (around many topics) was too much to get over. That does not stop people from trying to guilt us in to reinstating our membership within the parish, or trying to get us to donate money. So it is all well and fine for you to say to find another church or religion, how about you take a minute to find out exactly why people are leaving the church, a church that without parishioners will soon crumble.
3
Here we go again. It will take remaining practicing (and donating) Catholics to leave the church en masse for anything to change (and then probably even then things will stay the same.)
I've been out since the sex-abuse scandal Boston made the headlines. in the 17 years since, it's just one disgusting scandal after the other.
7
People want two conflicting things that cannot co-exist. They want to belong to a Catholic church that represents all their family traditions and (maybe) selective portions of their theology. And they also want to belong to a church that reflects their egalitarian social values. You can belong to the Ku Klux Klan because it represents a family tradition, but you look a little ridiculous complaining that the organization doesn't admit members of certain races.
I left the Catholic Church as a young adult. It was a bit painful, though I'm sure more so for my parents than for me. But I'm so glad to never have this constant contradiction between my church and my values.
I feel bad, to a point, for the man Bruni writes about who can no longer be a spiritual adviser for the retreats that he enjoyed so much. But this man was in denial for years that he was aiding and abetting a system that undervalued his own daughter's worth. Of course, his daughter was also a part of this.
If all the "Catholics" who disagree with the Catholic Church's theology or policies or practices left the church, there'd be almost nothing left of it. By staying, they're asking for their hearts to be broken.
4
I have been to a few large Christian mega-churches while visiting family in the last decade. I long since gave up on the Catholic Church which has harmed more of my family than ever helped. I have seen a lot of disdainful hypocrisy in the church.
I was very surprised at how inclusive these other Christian churches I visited were. They didn't judge people or demonize them. Just were happily inclusive. Joyful rather than judging. Open-hearted.
The Catholic Church's medieval lack of women in leadership and their rigid male authoritarianism is deplorable. If they fix that it will go a long way towards social redemption.
One of the commandments is to honor your mother and your father. But there is no mother in their Trinity. I find always male pronoun references to the vague and vengeful Holy Spirit person in the Trinity hysterically funny sometimes.
I think the Catholic Church needs some new parables. Put the Mom back in the Trinity metaphor of life. Be more Christian. And loving.
Mary, Jesus’ mother, is the Mother of the RC Church. She is venerated by most Catholics as almost, but not quite, equal to the Holy Trinity. Indeed, Mary is venerated by most Catholics to the extent that many, many Protestants accuse us of “Mary Worship”. They consider it sinful to worhsip any entity other than God himself and Jesus as His son. So in our eyes, we do have a Holy Mother at the head of our church to whom we can pray for help, guidance and to be a conduit for God’s grace and healing. Our primary prayer to Mary is of course the “Hail Mary” and also the Rosary. Many of us find great comfort just in having a blessed rosary in our pockets or our purses or, who know, the glove box in oir cars.
So you may chide us for an “all male” Holy Trinity, but others chide us for “Mary worship”. Remember there are those who don’t like the idea of God being a man, so they prefer to use the pronouns “she/her” in reference to God. As for myself, I don’t think you can ascribe a gender identity to the Holy Spirit, the third part of the Trinity. The Spirit is usually represented by a dove, and I think of the Spirit as a force of goodness that emanates from God in ethereal form, like “the spirit of love”, Love having no gender. Theologically, I don’t believe the RC church is male-dominated, although administratively it most certainly is. If you analyse the original tenets of faith as I have just done, there is plenty of room to acknowledge male, female and non-gender love towards all.
1
@Anne
Those mega-churches offer a very inviting and sociable scene. It feels good. But they too have a long history of abuse of all kinds, financial and sexual.
Right now in the news there are a bunch of articles about the struggles of the Southern Baptist Church to deal with its sexual abuse scandals.
The Catholics certainly have no monopoly on this.
Of course, atheists commit fraud and sexual abuse too. It's got to do with the nature of the human animal, not with this or that version of some "holy" book.
1
It sickens me as a practicing Catholic to read about the sex abuse crisis in the church.
As for the longstanding bias against LGBT people it has always been reactionary because even as kids we knew so many in the orders were homosexual--but we were told that was okay as long as the "hetero and homosexual leaning" people remained celibate and sacrificed their sexuality in a commitment to Christ.
Clericalism and forced celibacy is the problem here. Acting as if priests were better because they did not have sex and hence were all powerful in towns all over the world?
If someone has the gift of giving up their sexuality for Christ--and some holy people do as I have met them---I say wonderful for them. But how can you force a 'gift' on someone?
Especially if they do not have a warm and close prayerful life with Christ?
People ask me why I won't leave. I say the church is not the hierarchy or the pedophiles. It's the people in the pews. The nurse who does a double shift and pulls into the parking lot with her broken down Toyota for 7 a.m. daily mass. And the many nuns who try to save our cities and do great work in poverty trenches all over the world. That is the Christ's Church to me.
Why won't I leave? My answer is where would I go where people have no sin?
1
@KHD
"Why won't I leave? My answer is where would I go where people have no sin?"
One does not need to be religious or faithful to do good in the world. Simple Golden Rule altruism works just fine. So you would not need to go anywhere were you to leave.
1
Careful. The Pope just said that those criticizing the Church are "the friends, cousins and relatives of the devil."
2
@Blair
Say it ain't so.
Did Francis seriously say that?
@Blair
Fine by me, this pope has been a huge disappointment. If the pope won’t clean house and get rid of the child abusers and rapists within the RCC then I’ll happily associate with the “devil”. At least the devil doesn’t pretend to be something he’s not.
I am an agnostic but I have nothing against folks who want to believe in any religion as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on others and they do not molest or assault children.
But I do have something against religious hierarchies since, it seems clear, that they cannot satisfy my only two requirements...
From the Catholic clergy, to evangelicals, to Orthodox Jews... They all want to impose their beliefs on others and they all have been, and continue to be, found guilty of participating in, aiding and abetting, and covering up child abuse.
Why anyone considers these people sources of moral authority just bewilders me. [Thousands of them should be serving jail time.]
4
What would Jesus do?
2
@Mary
Jesus would leave this church without a backward glance and pronounce all within hypocrites.
1
@Mary Probably have a chat with the rabbi, given that he, like all his disciples, father and Mother(and brothers) was Jewish.
The Catholic Church isn't breaking my heart - but there are people who act in the name of the Church who are. My heart breaks for this woman, for the many like her and for the many commenters here who have been hurt by people in the Church.
I make this distinction between "the Church" is composed of approximately 1.3 billion people and each one is at a different place in his/her journey of faith. Ideally, we would like to believe that all people in positions of authority are the holiest, most compassionate and closest to truth of the Gospel. Sadly, in many cases this is not true. But this does not make the Church - or the Gospel - obsolete. The Church also includes many people, including clergy, who are true to the Faith but will never make the headlines. There are no headlines for those who give themselves tirelessly for the poor and marginalized - and many Catholics do this in the quiet march of their daily lives.
I understand why people choose to leave the Church but I choose to stay. I choose to stand by the Gospel and the Sacraments - for they will continue to strengthen me, regardless of the sins of individuals within the Church. I choose to stay to demonstrate by my life that this corner of the Church still loves all people unconditionally.
2
Not only is the Catholic church breaking its peoples' hearts, it is breaking the duty of spiritual care it owes its members. Pope Francis continues to hint at modernization and equality yet he still applies a Medieval template of blame, shame and punishment to the church's 21st century faithful. But only to the faithful. So the church points its pietic finger at believers like Shelly Fitzgerald while it uses its massive wealth and global political network to shield the sinners inside the institution from the consequences of their real sins . We see it time and time again. Any moral authority or credibility the church or the Pope ever had is gone. Without it, Roman Catholicism has reached a dead end. Requiescat in pace. R.I.P
3
Any discrimination against any taxpayer should result in the loss of tax free status. Period.
12
The Catholic Church has been breaking people's hearts .. and minds and bodies and families and lives ... for hundreds and hundreds of years now.
10
The Catholic Church, like all organizations, is led by people who make decisions. Sometimes an organization's leaders make such poor decisions for so long that the organization goes out of existence. I can't see any reason for the Catholic Church to continue to exist. Do we support other organizations which are infused with pedophiles? How do we view other organizations which lie and cover up extensive criminality? Do we respect other organizations which broadly and openly discriminate against LGBT members whom our secular laws explicitly protect? Of course, some will argue that the Catholic Church is morally focused and directed by God --- not much evidence of that, though. Others point to many good people in the Church, which is, of course, true; many decent people worked for Enron too --- where is that company now? There are many other good, morally focused organizations which could benefit from the work of new well-meaning members. Just leave. It's time. Let the Catholic Church die.
7
Why people still participate in this cult is beyond me.
9
The US church is an old, feeble institution on a fast track to causing its own demise. How lame and outdated they are to try the ancient tack of throwing vulnerable minorities under the bus to hide their own hideous sins. Women, LGBTQ people and the poor simply will not stand for this anymore. They have betrayed us all. They’ve already been basically kicked out if Ireland. It is just the beginning...
2
The catholic church needs to excommunicate itself for the mortal sins - raping children - it has perpetrated, done and covered up. No catholic deserves to go to heaven for what they've allowed their church to do in their name and the name of Jesus.
3
The epitome of hypocrisy, the moralists in Fitzgerald’s orbit need to accept the teachings of Christ, not a man, and learn to love their neighbors as they do their God. ALL of their neighbors, not just those who “abide.”
1
A Facebook meme - Jesus, holding his head in his hands: "I gave them the Beatitudes, and all they do is quote Leviticus . . . ." And - a few more of Jesus' pearls: "Why do you obsess over the speck in someone else's eye instead of removing the log in your own?" And - "Let the one without sin cast the first stone." And - "Father, forgive them for they know what they do. Odd - the "religious" leaders killed Jesus . . . then . . . persecute those who follow him now. Too sad.
1
Mr. Aldritch says "It's our church, too." No, Mr. Aldritch, it is not. In the eyes of American bishops and cardinals, we are just illiterate medieval peasants.
5
Thank God I'm an Atheist
5
I was raised as a catholic but as an adult soon saw the hipocricy practiced in the name of God. I have long considered all organized religion as giant ponzi schemes with the money flowing up. And the clerics preach to our children about going to hell if you don't conform. Each week there was another "collection" for the poor or the schools or the nuns or whatever and each week the priest would plead poverty and then retreat to his two story house and his housekeeper. Fear of eternal damnation, used for centuries to keep the uneducated belivers in line now wears thin on the better informed.
4
It seems to elude the Catholic Church that we are ALL sinners (IF one considers being LGBTQ a sin,) however, only LGBTQ folks are fired. Cheating on your wife, Church says: no problem, killing someone, Church sends over priests. Marrying a same sex person? Oh boy, all hell breaks loose. What a ridiculous institution. Why on earth does ANYONE still attend to this nonsense?
5
I grew up in a Catholic home as a Haitian American. Though, I am sure that the daughter of the Religious figure may be an awesome educator or advocate anyone. This is no longer about feelings, if their sexual preference was unknown this would not have affected anyone as long as her actions were just. The digital world has erased our boundaries, and respect has taken a backseat. No disrespect but I am a sexually abused survivor started initially in a very prominent Catholic Church. The church member babysat even after I had revealed them. Lets just put everybody's feelings to the side for a moment, it is statistically proven that most of the victim's of pedophiles have become "groomers" and/or homosexual. Not all but most, you have to admit. But as a parent must I sit at work and worry about why my child's teacher and gay, and whether counseling has been issued or is necessary. There is a greater issue going on because we are worried about the wrong thing, I don't mind who you are and I don't agree with the treatment of the family member, or leader. However, it isn't always about your feelings. For centuries this particular church has been known for hoarding those sick creatures. Glad to know they are finally attempting to weed them out. To avoid conflict it's sad but find out if this and or any person who is home and in the position to spread the disease. Before you subject our whole community to more confusion over your feelings.
2
The Episcopal Church, although not perfect as no church is perfect, is a viable alternative and all, really all, are welcome.
3
It has come to the point that the Church is beyond indignation and is just plain annoying...Is it so hard to see why so many Catholics have just thrown their arms up and left the Church in disgust?....the pontificating,intolerance, and self righteousness has left many to question the viability of the Church's right to criticize the shortcomings of its parishioners.....Having a Catholic Mother marry a Lutheran and I being deemed a bastard in the eyes of the Church shocked and hurt my childish heart.....brutal....and an everlasting blemish on my faith....
4
This article discusses how the LGBT community is treated. O.K. The bigger problem is child rape. Maybe the biggest problem is the secrecy. Adults have the opportunity to make decisions and to use their brains. Leave religion. This is 2019. Come on people. The gods that people worship today are few. We found the capacity to let go of countless gods. Let the last ones be seen for what they are. Figures of our imaginations. Grow up!
1
@Stephen Armiger: Society certainly still has gods; their names these days are Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs, Sergey Brin, Elon Musk, etc.
They are the tech-gods, who can make your household objects behave at the mere sound of your voice! That is a modern-day miracle, right?
And people are STILL suckers for someone who says "Hey, I did something amazing and you need to believe in me & give me your money now!" I would say Elon Musk is foremost among that group.
1
Being a Catholic is a choice. You have the power to reverse that choice at any time. If you are a Catholic, no matter how moderate you think you are, you are complicit in sexism, homophobia, and pedophilia and its cover-up.
5
@Eric- I agree. That said, most people are conditioned with regards to religion when they are little children, by their parents, either a person is unwilling or unable to quit a religion if there are any doubts in their minds regarding their spiritual beliefs. Brainwashing from an early age is the most effective way of control there is. People give up their individuality and capacity in making choices for themselves. They have tucked away inside their mind that "god" and anything relevant to their thoughts on a supreme being is untouchable and anyone who challenges or questions their beliefs are subject to harassment, threats or violence. We see that with Islam and their fanatics. The British woman who now wants to go back made many statements of no regrets and finds it acceptable for all of the rape, and murder and enslavement by her "Cult" of fanatics. Typical brainwashing case. Less subtle are the methods used by other religions and followers. Most people are like sheep, nothing more. We can include the cult of Trump, too.
3
@lou andrews I agree, but still possible. I went to Catholic kindergarten, elementary and high school, and college. I had myself excommunicated 20 years ago. My whole family still considers itself Catholic, though few attend mass regularly, and they all welcomed my husband with open arms. It's not that they believe in the teachings of the church, but they just don't want to take that step of getting out of it. They want the confirmation and wedding ceremonies for their kids....
1
@Eric- it's the typical primal human flaw: the herd mentality; the need to be accepted by the herd, and the herd leaders. That's why they don't leave, as you said, they want the confirmation and wedding ceremonies- the social/herd ritual(s). True indidivuality is a rare thing as i have learned. Lone wolves are a rare breed. I too went to catholic school -12 years, plus Sunday school. Every night being forced to recite prayers on my knees for 10-15 minutes prior to going to bed. As a Ukrainian American , i went to Saturday school. Ukrainian Catholicism is a bit different, more archaic than Roman Catholicism, i had both. quite a traumatic experience that i still have to deal with to this day. Tough to exorcise those demons.
We might consider the church’s history, especially during the Reformation and counter-Reformation in the 16th century. And, it might be instructive to consider how over and over Jesus was confronted by the Pharisees over issues of church doctrine and law. What can we take away from these teachings?
What good the Catholic Church has does is far outweighed by the damage it still inflicts on its true believers. It is so sad to think of all the damage it has inflicted on defenseless children. At least adults can exercise choice and flee.
3
An alternative lead for this piece:
"The Catholic Church is Opening People's Eyes"
2
Yep, it is all about public appearances. The Church hides behind secrecy until it becomes public then in acts. As this article illustrates, everyone gets hurt when it hides, does not deal with a matter in compassion, but strikes out. Interesting that it does not do so for that protected class of Church leaders- cardinals, bishops, and priests- unless it is forced to.
It seems one should definitely count themselves a lucky Catholic if he or she went through baptism, communion, confirmation, Catholic school, etc. and were not molested, raped, ostracized, bullied, coerced or shamed by a priest or a nun.
8
@Rebecca
Not molested or raped fortunately, but all the rest just about on a daily basis. It is a sick institution that has harmed untold children and it can't meet its end soon enough.
1
The iconic movie "Old Yeller" has an unforgettable story --a black man tells how he wandered into a white Church by mistake and almost didn't escape alive. God appears to him and compliments him for his feat saying 'I've been trying forever to get into that church and haven't made it yet!'....
The Church's actions in firing a school guidance counselor, her father and threatening students who protest are that Church. Regardless of whether current US law on LGBT marriage and First Amendment rights hold the Church is WRONG!
Yes, freedom of religion is a fundamental Constitutional right. But there are limits to the egregious abuses allowed when Church actions cross the line between arcane dogma and bigotry versus standards of fairness and justice sanctioned by US law and upheld in courts.
The Church is losing in Indianapolis by holding out against the tide of history, public opinion and evolving morality. Hobby Lobby exemplifies this aberration. Yes, the owners and Little Sisters won. But most Catholics ignore Church teaching on birth control. And these pyrrhic victories only serve to diminish the Church.
"Old Yeller" has another unforgettable story about the dog and man drowning together on an ill-fated raccoon hunting expedition. They come to some pearly gates but the gatekeeper says no dogs allowed. So the man keeps going until they arrive at Heaven's pearly gates where dogs are welcomed.
Catholics beware. Be brave. Let us pray....
6
For those who think this church is still necessary, consider the millions of dollars it spent on attorney fees ( and paying settlements) for the sexual abuses of priests committed on young boys - while it was still transferring wrongdoers to other parishes instead of kicking them out. The church has been anything but forthcoming about these matters and is still far from being so.
7
The Catholic Church is corrupt from the top, and from within. It should just close it doors, sell its assets, and give them to the poor.
6
I went to Catholic Grammar School, Catholic High School and Catholic College and I have only one thing to say:
They are HYPOCRITES -- EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM!!!
6
@Colleen Bambin...
As a homoerotic male observing the current abomination in the Roman Catholic Church who is thoroughly aware of exactly how the Church has been treating LGBTQ people for the past 1,5OO years... I am reminded of the words of Jesus Christ... "Ye shall reap just what ye sow."
1
Who wouldn't want to be Catholic? You get to be as awful as you want, as long as you duck into a confessional every so often and get your slate wiped clean. What a deal!!
4
I call this the “rubber band” principle of being human. When a religion’s doctrines and rules are in opposition to what it is to be human, there is tension - just as when a rubber band is stretched. The farther a church gets from what it is to be human, the greater the tension. Sooner or later, it breaks or snaps back. And often, it snaps back forcefully enough to hurt the lives of many people. It’s just a matter of time until the numerous abuses by and against priests and the faithful will either lead to change and sincere reckoning or break the church.
Catholic priests were not mostly celibate until the 12th century. And why then? It had mostly to do with church property rights, not something essentially wrong with married priests. That false premise has led to untold suffering. No matter how earnestly church leaders listen to “God’s will,” church doctrines are codified by human beings and include their prejudices and weaknesses. Those human musings must periodically and continually be looked at in the light of kindness, reality and fairness. Otherwise, something will break.
2
"He was still welcome at Mass," the statement said. Well, isn't that big of them.
There are legions of loyal Catholics who desperately want the Church's guidance to help them with the daily challenges of living in the 21st century.
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church is more interested in enforcing teachings that many, even most, of its members find unhelpful, irrelevant, even offensive. The current political and religious narrative is that all will be well if we just go back to a time when America was "great."
But we can't go back, and our most important institutions are failing to support us in moving forward.
3
There is nothing worth saving in the Catholic Church. I went to a catholic boarding school, where I was lectured daily about heaven and hell and where I had to defend myself repeatedly against sexual and emotional abuse. It has taken a lifetime to overcome all the damage that was done to me by this evil and hypocritical institution.
135
Catholic grandparents from the old country, catholic parents,
catholic kindergarten , catholic grammar school and ,for good measure all boys catholic prep school! Was I "brain-washed"?
Yes ,I was !Did it hurt me in any meaniful way? No, it did not.
Why ? Because , I believe I followed the basic tenet of all true religions: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" .
More than anything else my "catholic family" taught me that I can not live in a world all alone. Before taking religious philosophy into account one must (or should) remember that first we are human . We are born human and die human. Some
of us are able to see and live life as others are not. I have never,ever been able to understand why one person's way of life
is more correct or "acceptable" than anothers. I say Shelly sounds like the kind of person my wife and I would love to have as a neighbor.
2
Institutional authority is a dynamic of human nature that succeeds by satisfying human wants and needs. When wants conflict with needs, clever devils acquire power by manipulating the conflict with intimidation, confusion, indulgence and secrecy.
A timid little taste may be delicious. But when that grows into the desperate, arrogant hungers of institutional addiction, ruin is inevitable.
The process can be horrifying.
See the Wikipedia article, "Murder of Catherine Cesnik". It is the heartbreaking story of a courageous young woman who threatened the power of church authority when she went to the aid of young victims.
A more detailed, chilling study of this atrocity, its scope, multiple victims and continuing effects is covered in the Netflix documentary, "The Keepers".
Still unsolved and unresolved, it makes this old man weep.
2
I cannot understand why a sexually active gay person would seek employment within the Catholic Church. Its rules are well known and it’s public pronouncements are well advertised. If you do not agree with this, don’t work there. Catholic schools promote Catholic teachings.
5
To the Catholic students. Good question. Wouldn’t it be good to know the answer?
If you strongly support the Catholic Church, how could you NOT want them to incorporate new knowledge to remain relevant? Who would want their surgeon to use a 2,000 year old text?
4
Without even reading this article (because it is just another in an endless succession of Catholic Church abuses, hypocrisies, and absurdities unfortunately), the elephant in the room is not only why, people, why, do you keep supporting this corrupt institution, but also, isn't it time to put all the fairy tales aside (virgin birth away in the manger, original sin, "Christ" dying on the cross for your sins, etc. etc.?? Organized religions exist for the most part on manipulations of guilt, the continual indoctrination of children and supportive-to-the-narrative theatre. From childhood we are pressured and manipulated to buy into it all. It is organized to perpetuate itself and is a stark contrast from the simple, direct concept of inherent divinity within, and the uncomplicated notion of being kind to people, helpful, respectful, and honest. Drop the drama and be the good person you are. Why are we still engaging a horror show, a puppet show, for hundreds of years? If I had to guess, I'd say indoctrination and fear, both a far cry from unconditional love, acceptance, and kindness. You don't need a church to be a good person. It's as simple as that in my opinion.
4
The Catholic Church has built some beautiful cathedrals and commissioned much wonderful art.
It has also engaged in wholesale destruction of pagan art and literature, burned perhaps 100,000 women as witches, launched "crusades" against all manner of people, including other Christians, killing millions in the process, and colluded in the molestation of who knows how many thousands of children by its clergy.
I'd say it has some serious work to do in order to balance the scales. Articles like this do not make me optimistic that it ever will.
3
Bruni writes that the Catholic Church considers gay people"objectively disordered". This is not true. It is important to know what the Church really teaches. All of the teachings of the Church can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered" (2357). The Church never states that people are disordered but that people are made in the image and likeness of God. Homosexual people are not disordered. It is the sexual act that is. They are called to holiness like everyone else and are loved by Jesus who died on the cross for all people. The Catechism goes on to say," They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." (2358) Yet, while the Church teaches that homosexuals are called to live their vocations to the greater glory of God, the Church also teaches without any equivocation, that they are also called to chastity. (2359)
2
@Jillian Figueroa
This is splitting hairs in order to justify cruelty. So it’s OK to be gay, as long as you never express it and live a life of loneliness and frustration. Telling someone they must deny themselves sexual expression, a fundamental part of what it is to be human (and something many people would say is a gift from God), does not constitute accepting them with respect, compassion and sensitivity. It is a clear case of unjust discrimination. Can you not see now messed up these “teachings” are? An institution that thinks requiring celibacy is fine, and that covers for and protects child molesters in its ranks, has no moral standing to be teaching anything.
10
My father was an Irish, New York Catholic who taught me about faith and the order of the church. He's long gone, but he taught me that the church, like all powerful, wealthy, and male run entities, was to be feared because of the damage that could be done. He told me to be careful and keep my eyes wide open. He taught me that my relationship was with God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Mother, not the institution. In the end love, equality and justice will prevail. I pray for it every day. I am the real Catholic Church. I haven't left the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has left me.
6
Nothing surprises me about the Church, but it all depresses me. Decades ago I left them, at the age of 18 after 12 years of Catholic schools. The misogyny was overwhelming to me. In 5th grade we were taught the hierarchy (closeness to God) of human beings: Priest, married man, unmarried man, nun, unmarried women who were chaste, married women, un-chaste unmarried women. We were also taught that a fetus was always ranked higher than the mother in a life or death situation. My mother almost died of blood poisoning because a Catholic hospital wouldn't remove her dead 3-month fetus.
And then I read The Confessions of St. Augustine, a revered "Doctor of the Church." It made me ill; his hatred of women was blatant.
I left and never looked back. Though I miss the part I used to think belonged to me, I couldn't subject myself to being treated with distaste/repugnance/condescension by the good fathers. (God bless the nuns, though).
The Church, in its teachings and practices, has no moral authority.
6
@GoldenTwin
I never had heard of that Closeness to God List. Unbelievable.
The "...Save the Baby Even If It Kills the Mom..." Rule I knew about.
Many years ago deciding which church to attend was simple. I considered the RC church but ruled that out. I belong to and attend an Episcopal Church. Our Rector and Senior Warden are both openly gay. It's an open and welcoming church that all discouraged RC should consider.
4
“Yet the church as a matter of policy...considers gay people ‘objectively disordered.’”
I was raised in a fundamentalist religious tradition that indoctrinates this very same pernicious precept, that gay people are “objectively disordered.” As the only member of my family to break free from this ultraconservative religion, I can attest to the power and the inherent hatred that’s packed into “objectively disordered.”
Because it’s supposedly from a God’s-eye point of view and the way Nature “intended,” proponents feel empowered for the “simple” reason that they believe Truth is on their side. The attitude is not “Speak the Truth with love, so much as, “The truth hurts—get used to it.”
And despite being taught the often banal maxim that one must hate the sin but love the sinner, it was clear to me from an early age that modifiers like “objectively disordered” were meant to be demeaning and dehumanizing. For I often—and I do mean often—heard gays disparagingly compared to animals; indeed, the brunt of such comparisons was that at least animals knew their “place,” their role. THIS is the unspoken, cruel and hateful truth behind “objectively disordered,” as well as “love the sinner, not the sin,” at least as far as gays (and transsexuals) are concerned in conservative Christianity.
It’s devoid of respect, compassion and humanity. In a word, love—the very concrete concept that Jesus of the Gospels seems to have embodied most, after all.
3
So it's ok to have gay priests and child abusers hanging about but the Church cannot put up with Shelly Fitzgerald who is married to a woman, is not sexually abusing children or nuns and is a productive member of society. The church needs to review its priorities.
204
The Catholic Church needs to implode. Let the Vatican go belly up. Quit giving money to this corrupt outfit.
6
@Jacquie. Agreed. I am really sick of being Catholic.
5
@Jacquie I agree with your comment 100 percent. There is a lot of hatred and anger on this comment board. We certainly do need the Catholic Church today
2
I have no idea why people continue to support large religious institutions. I'm independently faithful and believe what I do in the privacy of my mind and my family and happier for it, removing the involvement of priests, churches and other forced obligations has allowed me to focus on what's important to me while continuing through life. I do have some help from my studies in philosophy and existentialism but I think most people would be comfortable being independently faithful.
2
My response to stories such as this is that it will probably take another century or so for people to come to terms with gay marriage, especially when it runs up against church teaching. Each generation moves along and accepts situations that would have seemed totally unacceptable previously. Not until we get much further down the road will situations such as those discussed in this story be fully accepted.
2
Gay people are not “objectively disordered.” When are the leaders of the Roman Catholic church finally going to admit that homosexuality is merely a less common natural variation akin to left-handedness? Don't refer to some book or edict. Just take a good, hard look at reality.
9
I returned to my roots as a Catholic in 2000 after a 30 year
absence. Now I have a local priest with a "clinic" opposite Planned Parenthood hectoring the congregation at Mass about "Baby Murders", "Baby Killers", "College Sex", "Contraceptives", marching at P.P. and more. Trump being praised as a "Pro-Life" President etc.
At this week's meeting of a local service organization was a speaker from Planned Parenthood. Very articulate, very reasonable and very honest about the fact that abortion is usually the last option they recommend.
Before this meeting, I was called by a fellow member of both my organization and my parish. Ranting and raving verbatim what the priest above assaulted his congregation with. Bottom line is that since I went to an Episcopal prep school and know a lot about that faith, that I'm gone No one needs this in this life. I'll be "shunned" by at least two Catholic members of my organization just like the LDS Church does when you leave it. Is this what Jesus wanted? I think not.
8
Reading some of the comments and also reading some of abuse dealt out by the Catholic Church hierarchy, I have to scratch my head and ask: So what took you so long to leave? Do we really need some Italian monsters to tell us how to lead a good life? Which BTW, they themselves don't practice. It is time to call a spade a spade and leave in droves. Enough Already!
7
I figured out that the Catholic Church was full of bigoted hypocrites when I was 12.
9
Here's the thing, we're all entitled to believe what we want to believe. I'm a Catholic, there are some teachings I fully believe / embrace and there are some which I simply cast aside without guilt. Gay marriage for example, is one tenet I cannot get behind. Abortion, another. I personally enjoy Catholic Mass although in truth, rarely make it as I have a young family. That said my children all attend Catholic school and have been baptized and will continue to receive their sacraments. It's not just heart breaking, it's actually embarrassing. When I mention to people the school my children attend or our plans for Mass on Christmas morning, I want to (but obviously don't) make clear that I'm not a raging homophobe or crazed right to lifer. But I try to keep my own personal embarrassment in check and know that many, many Priests are lovely people. That the Catholic Church has done much for the poor and needy. My actions speak louder than the church's silly and sad stand on homosexuals. The church has existed for two thousand years and I'm convinced it still has many hundreds or thousands of year left. I just hope and pray that it can and will do better in the future.
3
@Andrea: I have only one question for you: If, tomorrow, the Pope said that gay persons were welcome to get married in the church, and that abortion is a legitimate action in some circumstances, would you instantly change your POV and be able to "get behind" it then?
Yes, the Catholic Church is very hateful to gay people but it is just as bad to straight people.
I have known many people raised in the Catholic Church and they all suffer from the antisexual teachings of the Church.
8
Look on the bright side: Considering the long history of the Catholic Church, we are fortunate to live in a time and place where membership in this organization is voluntary.
6
What is breaking my heart are these nasty and extremely anti-Catholic comments. There is no other religion that would be subjected to this hateful behavior. I know the Church has made mistakes but the tremendous good throughout the centuries outweighs the bad. As a practicing Catholic, I am the first to point out the Church's faults but I will just as quickly point out the good too. I will defend my Catholic faith without hesitation. No religion is perfect and we should start reading about the shortcomings and mistakes of ALL faiths and not just the Catholic faith.
4
@WPLMMT it would be interesting to hear what you think the Church's faults are.
5
@WPLMMT Nothing good outweighs the sexual abuse of children. Nothing. Show me another religion accused of child sexual abuse to the same vast extent and then we can talk rationally. Not to mention all the other human rights abuses that have hundreds of thousands of ruined lives.
8
If you look at NYT articles over the last couple of weekends, you will see that Baptists are dealing with sexual abuse in their churches. While I an neither a Baptist or a Catholic, I agree that no religion should be continually singled-out for the behavior of the clergy or followers. Perhaps Catholicism has been a focus to the degree that it has tried to bury and justify its abuses. My studies of all the world’s major religions have shown me that wherever secrecy, denial, dishonesty, infallibility and peer pressure are involved, trouble with follow.
I do not subscribe to any religion. And no, I don’t think of myself as an atheist or agnostic either. I have yet to encounter a humanly-circumscribed belief system that makes sense, is really kind and life-affirming, and doesn’t pretend that it’s leaders have a direct line to all that is worthy and compassionate. And that’s OK. I can work with the best I know until something better is convincingly presented.
1
As a college President I find the Church's quote about gay's being "objectively disordered" hypocritical. This is only surpassed by the policy that Church employees are to be in compliance with Church teaching.
If the above were accurate then we are now confronted with Church leadership that itself is hypocritical as it is "objectively disordered" or predatory by their inaction. However, considering the above mentioned policy, we really have only a handful of bishops in this country that are suited because so many are not in compliance themselves.
Credibility is wanting and therefore so is leadership!
3
I grew up in a 1950's dysfunctional household. And I have always been so grateful that my parents didn't add 'Catholic' to the list of dysfunction. That one I was spared. I've heard many a horror story from my age group about having to go to Catholic school.
How is it possible that anybody can say they are a Catholic these days? How much cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy can they take? I don't understand it. I certainly would never let a child of mine out of sight when in the church and never, ever would I send a child alone to be an altar boy/girl. Yikes!
Watch The Magdelene Laundry and then tell me how you can still be a Catholic. (And that's in 'our' time. Go back and really look at history of the church). Double yikes!
My heart's been broken many a time but at least I was spared this. Hallelujah!
Postscript: If one needs community (and we all need that) and wishes to find it in a church, I'd suggest Unitarian-Universalism. You can be with your god and always be accepted for who you are.
5
When you look at all of the conflicts and wars taking place now on earth, religious beliefs are typically the underlying reason. I was born into the Catholic religion 68 years ago. I attended its grammar and high schools. I left it recently due to the disgust I feel regarding the pedophile scandal and the poor way Rome is dealing with it. I believe but just not in the Church.
4
I watched as my pious mother was treated as a second-class Catholic, unable to take the sacrament of communion, because she had the audacity to divorce the man who abandoned her with four small children. She suffered all those years, believing she was the one in the wrong. The continued woes of the Catholic Church are the result of its arrogance and policies formed in the dark ages for the enrichment and protection of the church leaders. It is becoming obsolete, and good riddance!
241
@Ralph I went through the same thing with my mother, the most devoted Catholic I ever knew. My father cheated on her for years, left her once with no mailing address and no source of income (with 4 kids), came back, only to leave her again for good 8 years later. After her divorce was final, she applied for an annulment because it was important for her to be not married in the eyes of the church. She was denied, because at age 45 the church authorities explained that they would be "wasting" an annulment on someone who would not be having any more children. She served the church in many capacities her entire life, and they turned their back on her. Because she couldn't get an annulment, she never even dated, much less had a relationship because she still considered herself married. I am so disgusted with the Catholic Church and have nothing to do with it.
38
@Ralph - I watched the same with my sister-in-law, whose husband disappeared and left her with 2 kids and no child support. When she wanted to re-marry years later, she had to pay nearly $2000 to her local Catholic church for the privilege of annulment. Apparently divorce is ok as long as you pay the church's cover charge.
18
The Catholic Church has done a great deal of good for my life and the lives of the people I know and love. Yes, there are some bad priests; I know many more who are selfless and giving. It is easy to demonize institutions and individuals and blame them for all the problems in our world. I prefer the Church's message which is to forgive. I am sorry for all the anger and hatred I read in these comments--it reminds of just how much our world still needs the Church, however imperfect it is.
40
Matthew,
I agree with your comment 100 percent. There is a lot of hatred and anger on this comment board. We certainly do need the Catholic Church today.
8
@Matthew No, I'm sorry, but we do not "need" the Catholic Church. Not the church as it currently exists: homophobic while many of its own clergy are themselves gay.
How do I know? Because I am a former member of the Marist Brothers. I'm now 71. I left the order, and the church, in 1994. I have never been more happy in my life. And, by the way, I am a gay man.
It's not possible to list in this space the whys and wherefores of not needing the church anymore. You may just do a cursory Google search of gay priests, priests with children, Marist Brothers charged with abuse...you get the idea.
55
@Matthew But the message isn't really to "forgive". The message is judgment and hypocrisy, every day, all the time. Judge women who have sex outside of marriage, but hypocritically look the other way when priests break their vows of celibacy. Demand sexual abstinence from parishioners, but look the other way when priests are sexually assaulting children. Condemn homosexuals, yet let them continue to serve as priests (because the Church wouldn't have enough priests otherwise). At the end of the day, you are picking and choosing which messages you want to follow, which raises the broader question of "why bother?" I'm pretty sure you could follow the principles of forgiveness in your life without having a church tell you its the right thing to do.
58
As an ex-Catholic Gay man, I find it difficult to understand why any gay person would want to belong to an organization that despises their very existence. There are many flavors of Christianity: gay folk should find a flavor that is palatable to them.
4
I am sure the Catholic church would still be willing to accept the Fitzgeralds' tithings.
This church of severely repressed men is anything but religious. Child abuse, nun abuse, LGBT abuse, you name it. Wasn't it Jesus who said "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" (an adulterous woman--what about the man??)
I am amazed that anyone would follow the teachings of this church after all that has been revealed about them. Disgusting.
2
It is certainly the case that the scriptures of the Tanakh and the Christian New Testament contain clear indictments against homosexual behavior. What is seldom considered is that these scriptures were largely written during periods of exile or occupation when Jewish and/or Christian identity were under clear threat from the surrounding culture. From the time of Alexander's conquest to the Roman subjugation of Palestine, Hellenism was the enforced cultural practice of occupying rulers. Antiochus IV Epiphanes imported all of Greek culture, including the gymnasium and its attendant homosexuality, into Jewish life in Jerusalem. The result was the Maccabean revolt and a total rejection of all things Greek in the acceptable norms of Palestinian Judaism. The Christian gospels and Paul's epistles were likewise written in a Roman culture saturated with Hellenism, including homosexual practice in the gymnasium. The scriptural imprecations against homosexuality were thus more about building a wall around Jewish and Christian cultures that would protect their identity and prevent them from casually adopting their occupier's cultural practices than they were about holiness or righteousness in the eyes of their God. You can read about similar cultural walls being constructed in the Didache around such practices as feast and fast days, etc.
1
@Jack Thanks for sharing this slice of cultural history. It would do everyone well if Catholic practices were given context, especially when it comes to heated issues.
However, with this information, (unsourced I might note) it could be used today in defense of discriminating against gays and other life choices made by those some Catholics aren't in agreement with to justify their behavior.
It's a slippery slope.
Although I'm not religious in any way, I have a little sympathy for the Catholic church on this. There are no good solutions for them. If they do a U-turn and fully accept homosexuality, they will get worldwide cries of hypocrisy (and demands for reparation) for the centuries of damage they've done to gays and their families, and a massive schism in the church. So they're trying to muddle through without a plan, opposing homosexuality in doctrine but ignoring it until they can't. You or I are free to change our minds, but when you claim to know the eternal truths, changing such a truth will destroy your credibility for ... a long time.
1
When someone (or an organization) tells you who they are, believe them. The church is quite clear that they are bigoted against the LGBTQ community regardless of what the science/medical community can teach us. Find a new church if needed, I hear Episcopal might be a good option for you. Or perhaps you can find peace by spending some time in nature. Just never forget that all religions are man made.
2
Jesus of Nazareth spread a wonderful message of love, hope and compassion for even the least of the community. He commissioned his followers to spread his message word and to serve the people.
With enough lust for power, an organization of men can make anything a hateful, hypocritical dictatorship. "Your trespass is far, far worse than my tyranny."
2
The Catholic Church has been breaking people, period, for millennia. Cafeteria Catholics need to recognize that by filling the pews, teaching in the schools, etc., they are lending force to all of the Church’s harmful dogma.
5
There's an advantage when organized religions--all of which are morally suspect--get stupider, as is the case here. Once these religious organizations cross certain thresholds of bad behavior, people with half a brain leave them. That's a good thing: every human who leaves organized religion, choosing non-dogmatic thinking instead, makes this world better off.
So pick a different church. The Catholic church doesnt owe you anything.
3
And yet....Please remember that the Catholic schools in our poor urban areas are just about the only place local children can receive a decent education. There is tuition, to be sure, but at about 1/4 the level of other private schools.
As in many flawed human endeavors, the good the Church does cannot be unwound from the awful harm it has wrought.
1
So looking at this logically for a moment, "something religion is very uncomfortable with" (thanks George Carlin), Evangelicals supported Trump >80% and I would hazard a guess that the most religious voters of all stripes weren't far behind in their voting patterns too. What this tells me is that those who spin a good tale, no matter how crazy, will be supported by very religiously-minded people. This fever of Trump/religion is going to take a while to break.
It is both tragic and ironic that the Catholic Church dictates morality in sexual relations but is fully embroiled in sex scandals of its own and the next spotlight will be on children of priests coming forward. The tragedy is that the church has allowed egregious and heinous abuse of children and nuns by the clergy with no thought of protecting the victims. Their priority was to maintain position and power.
The other day, 9th grade boys were taunting each other by calling each other gay. I stepped in and explained the virtues of tolerance and acceptance. One young man told me his church teaches that homosexuals are mentally ill. Another young man explained that his church told him that homosexuality is a punishment from God. In a public school, in what way does a teacher respond intelligently and compassionately, without risking the ire of the parents who espouse these views? I am sure this is not an isolated incident.
I remember the nuns used to tell us that God could read our thoughts and we would burn in hell if we had impure thoughts. At the age of 68, I mentioned to a friend this morning that I said the rosary because I believed I was thinking something "evil" and no, it wasn't about Trump being led out of the White House in handcuffs - and she was shocked. I sounded like the 6 year old girl listening to that nun in a Catholic school in Greenpoint, Brooklyn years ago. Very sad.
1
Blame the parents, not the Church they can stand up to the hateful messages if they want to. When they don’t they perpetuate the lies.
''priesthood would be decimated if closeted gay men were exposed and expelled. ''
Decimating is removing one in ten. According to stories in the Times it would be at a a minimum one in three. Perhaps as high as two in three. Destroying the priesthood.
It would be the end of the Catholic Church.
3
These are adults who made their choices to continue with the Catholic organization so why the surprise about broken hearts. Touch a hot stove, you get burned.
Lets keep the focus on the children whose lives have been shattered by pedophiles protected by Catholics in the US.
Don't walk away from the Catholic church, run.
4
"RELIGION does three things quite effectively: deludes people, controls people, divides people." ~ Carlespie Mary Alice McKinney
4
What about the Inquisition? Look what the Catholic Church did to the Jews. No apologies even for torture and murder.
6
Revelation 18:4
Homosexuality is an affront to God. Everyone knows the church's position on the issue. Get over it, and move on.
3
Religion is just another manufactured narcotic that poisons.
3
Religion: still poisoning everything.
3
Breaking people's hearts? Try this for a headline "The Catholic Church is raping children and covering up the crimes."
5
I’m mystified that the Catholic Church, which is responsible for centuries of decidedly unChristlike actions, still gives its adherents the warm fuzzy they seek.
Holy wars, torture, inquisitions, condoning slavery, amassing great wealth from the pennies of the poor and political cabals, oppressing women, raping and sexually abusing thousands of children and then protecting the predators and shaming the victims, all while terrorizing their flock with the threat of eternal hell (but granting absolution if you come in and give them money)—if all this wasn’t enough, I doubt the firing of a competent teacher because she made her lesbian marriage legal will change many minds.
I hope her lawsuit is successful.
3
Wow, an organization that coddles its pedophiles and rapists are calling the shots on decent folk. That's rich but nothing new.
People, wake up. You are losing your 'true' souls.
6
I am inspired and excited about the shift in dogma the Catholic Church is undergoing! I am "recovering Catholic" myself who has viewed the Catholic Church as an institution more likely to breed hatred and discrimination. This breaks my heart because there are so many Catholics whom I love and admire, my God-Mother being one of them. I read the lives of Saints and Women who have worked miracles of self sacrifice to demonstrate love and compassion. That, to me, is what it means to be Catholic. So I remind my fellow Catholics that self sacrifice and determination is a concept we as Catholics are really familiar with. All this suffering is not for nothing. Please continue to be strong in your convictions of inclusiveness and compassion. I am grateful Thank you NYT for providing the platform for EVERYONE to have a voice.
1
The catholic church is an extremely warped invention, by men, for men, and of men. The actual teachings of that man from Nazareth are buried under a bizarre organization that treats women as subservient. No women can be priests. ABSURD!
Time to fade into history (and it's a black history, certainly). From the Inquisition, to aiding and abetting Mussolini and Hitler, to today's massive pedophile coverup, it's no "religion", at all.
4
The Catholic Church broke my heart twice before I was 14 years old, 27 years ago. First, when an abusive priest was allowed to remain at my parish and school and then simply moved to a different location. Then at a new parish, when I was told I absolutely could not participate as an altar server since my place in the church was as a future mother. I absolutely agree with other posters who wonder how the church can continue to exist with this many years and different manifestations of appalling behavior.
4
"Pat Fitzgerald, 67, has long loved being a Catholic,"
Why? Why has he loved being a member of an institution that purposely and criminally protected, covered-up, enabled, supported and indulged the depravity of child rapists by the tens of thousands while it simultaneously and very plainly condemned his own daughter as a sexual deviant and sinner? That wasn't enough for him to leave the church but now that she is personally targeted he's shocked, SHOCKED, to find out how awful they are. And still it was the church who left him!
I have zero sympathy for Mr. Fitzgerald. Until rank and file Catholics stop sheepishly supporting the peddlers of superstitious bigotry who run the church, especially by withholding money (the one thing those clergymen clearly do worship) they will be just as guilty of the harm inflicted on persons like Shelly Fitzgerald as those men are.
2
When I was a kid the Catholic kids on my street told me, and I can quote them to this day, that :”
“...there will Freedom of Religion in America until Catholics are the majority. Then you guys will have to convert because Eroor has no rights...”
They learned this in parochial school, from nuns.
Just as well, really, that the RCC is turning into an object of contempt.
1
The hypocrisy of the Church is epic. Priests known to have been serial sexual abusers of boys -- criminals whose bishops should have turned them into the police -- were/are moved from parish to parish to cover up their crimes, but the married lesbian counselor is fired and her father ostracized! The bishop presiding over this atrocity should resign, cloak himself in sackcloth, beg forgiveness and take himself to a monastery for life to do penance.
4
I was born and raised Catholic. Attended Catholic elementary school, high school and university. I left the church back in the 1990s when the child rape scandals an ensuing cover ups started to break. It is a hopelessly corrupt institution run by egomaniacal pscyhopaths.
3
Brought to you by the pathologically paternalistic organization that now admits to sexually abusing nuns, pedophila toleration for decades (centuries?), closeted gay priests (centuries?) and instructions how to manage the apparently not uncommon event of priests fathering children out of wedlock.
Seems that that “confess-absolved” stuff works too well at NOT changing behavior. What happened to: “Go forth and sin no more” ?
Help me here: what is it about Catholicism that cannot be found in other faith traditions?
3
As a gay American man who grew up in Rome, it's always been apparent to me that the Catholic Church is essentially a criminal organization with a terrible corruption at its center: institutionalized homosexual pedophilia.
Ask yourself this: Why do "celibate" men need altar boys around them? What purpose do young boys serve in religious performance?
It should be noted that I'm not a Catholic, but I was active in my Episcopal church as a boy, which is sort of the unofficial embassy of the Anglican community to the Holy See. I am also now an orthodox atheist.
It must be hard to "make any sense of this" when you have been raised with a narrative that paints great evil as good. Having once been a patron of the arts and architecture is no justification for the mountain of wrong the Church has done to mankind over the centuries. In any event, those works of art were the result of a sort of artistic arms race between vying Italian noble families who staffed the upper management of the Church; they have little to do with the Church itself.
In my personal experience, my father was tangentially involved with Archbishop Marcinkus and his mafia-like Vatican Bank in the 70s and 80s, before Dad got involved with Iran-Contra back home. The litany of crimes by the Church could fill several national libraries.
The Church and other religious institutions will crumble and die as the pagans did before them. Not soon enough, not in my lifetime, but this is the beginning of the end.
2
In light of the fact that a majority of priests are gay (and many of them are sexually active) all this strikes a sour note. Talk about hypocrisy!
1
I've been a Recovering Catholic for decades.
I like Pope Francis - I don't agree with everything he says or has done - but he is a breath of fresh, direct, much-needed air in this mired-in-the-Dark-Ages religion.
After Pope Francis started disinfecting a few things with his words and deeds, I began to consider maybe going back to Mass. Then I saw the documentary, The Keepers, on Netflix. Full stop. Nope. That was it for me. I'm done. NEVER again.
2
It does concern me - a lot - that the majority of the Supreme Court is made up of Catholic justices. The only Catholic justice appointed by a Democratic president (Obama) is Justice Sotomayor who describes herself as a "cultural Catholic". The other Catholic justices are all clearly to the right and appointed by Republican presidents.
We need more atheists/agnostics/humanists in Congress and SCOTUS.
4
Many issues are conflated here:
I do think a religious institution has the right to hire people who adhere to the teachings. Would you ask something different of a Jewish or Buddhist institution? Or why would you want to work for a group whose rules your despise?
BUT: the 'man' (and I mean MAN) -made rules, such as no priesthood for women, celibacy of priests are NOT gospel. It is high time they changed.
2
In fact Jewish institutions always hire nonJews who can work on the Sabbath. They don’t tell them who to sleep with and especially if it is not the religious institution. The tentacles of the Catholic Church goes down to the adult children of the hospital employees, 3 steps removed from the clergy. They don’t even enforce it with the clergy
1
This makes me so sad. A similar thing happened in my community - the local Catholic school fired a teacher who was married to someone who was divorced and had not had his first marriage annulled. She was very popular and many families pulled their kids out of the school after this. I was raised Catholic and educated by Jesuits who taught compassion and empathy above all else. But in the the wider church compassion and empathy are in short supply. The most "holy" mass I have attended in years was in the Castro District in SF where all were welcome and the priest was baptizing a baby from a same sex marriage. It was so joyful and gave me hope that this is what the Catholic Church could be if only it would open its heart and mind.
3
The nerve of a church that expects its clergy and its employees to abide by church teaching! It is not true that clergy or employees publicly living in other irregular relationships, such as living together outside marriage, are not similarly treated. I'm sure there are examples where parishes and schools have not been consistent in their application of this, but the teaching of the church in these areas has been clear for about 2,000 years now.
3
I don't share the Church's perspective, but really, folks: the church and its schools are voluntary organizations. You don't have to put yourself through this. Jesus shows up elsewhere.
Move on. The last Catholic can pick up the tab for the lawsuits and shutter the doors.
4
The Church is trying to deflect attacks by attacking others. Their doctrine has always been anti-gay on biblical grounds but have always tolerated it among those in consecrated life. They ignored the nuns who prayed on other nuns or female students and priest and brothers who did like-wise. It is easier to attack one group than address the decay and rot within.
I read a story the other night about schools for the deaf with sexual predators in Italy and Argentina. They accused the students in Italy of rabble rousing the victims in Argentina. They hand delivered a letter naming names to the hand of the Pope, yet it was suppressed. The problem is so pervasive that they would have to defrock many priests and every bishop and cardinal. It is easier to have a witch hunt against gays than clean up the real problem of predators. Don't hold your breath. The Pope is just as guilty as any other bishop. The church is not suddenly getting religion, it just wants to look like it is cleaning out the filth. There isn't a dumpster big enough.
4
It is time all religions be taxed in the USA. Church and State needs to be totally separated.
Let organized religion - Christianity, Islam and Judaism etc., operate without American taxpayers subsidizing these outfits. Trillions of dollars from these groups would be contributed to the economy.
Whether it’s the Moses or Jesus or Allah brands. It is time for the believers to pay. Like you pay a tax to go to the movies, you pay a tax to worship some sky God!
1
Yet.......people still give their children, their money, their lives to the Church that lies to them, constantly covers up the actions (criminal actions, you or I would go to prison for what these guys did to Nuns and kids), then protect the abusers, shuffle them around, deny, deny, deny, and only when brought up in a lawsuit, do they admit anything. And apparently, it still goes on. This Pedophile Club has gone on for generations, and people still follow them. It's Brainwashing at the highest level.
To this non-Catholic, what's happening here resembles what's happening in American politics: Just as Trump and the Alt-Right get their way only at the pleasure of the American people, today's Catholic Church gets its way only at the pleasure of Catholic parishioners. It's time for those parishioners to start voting; if their church won't provide ballots, they should use their feet.
This is what your church believes- why would you want to be a member of it? I am so puzzled by adults who still choose to remain members of a church that clearly states what it accepts and what it doesn't. As kids we had no choice. I went to Catholic schools for twelve years. There are so many beautiful, inclusive Christian churches that would welcome you with open arms. As I have told many a friend trying to get through a breakup, "He doesn't love you- time to move on." He probably never did.
5
Do these ex-employees not know their faith or something? Working for 40 years for a church and then just casually walking into a sinful behavior in the form of a lifelong commitment? The church doesn't have to enforce the commandments, but it doesn't need to harbor apostates either.
2
When my PTSD ravaged dad held off the cops for hours with a gun to my five year old head...Well, no one died, he went off to jail then a hospital for a couple months, and later that evening I lay on the back seat of the parish station wagon listening as my mom pleaded with the priest to give her permission to leave him. The priest was adamant that God had given this burden to my mother for a reason, she had made a vow and she had to keep it. So we had 15 more years of abuse and chaos.
Years later I heard an ethnic joke that summed up my feeling about priests: A village priest was questioning a man on why he only had two children. Was he using birth control? The man looked the priest in the eye and said:"You don't play the game, you don't make the rules."
I loved much of what I learned in Catholic schools about living a moral life. Too bad so many priests think they get special rules.
9
All it took was finding out that the office staff, Sunday school director, and choir conductor were paid unfairly for me to leave my church. I don’t have much tolerance for complicity. Vote with your feet, people.
3
The comments to this NYT article suggests many Catholics are "done" with the Church. How could one not be with all the revelations of child abuse, abuse of nuns, abortions for nuns (reported by the current Pope) and yes, the constant demonization of Gay Catholics. If all gay athletic coaches, teachers, counselors and gay priests quit the Church - the Catholic Church would be decimated. My heart break is that my single parent Mother, worked two or three jobs to send me to twelve years of Catholic school. Even then, some nuns and priests were in romantic relationships. The acceptance of pedophilia, Vatican wealth, drunkenness, gambling, pay for annulling marriages which included children, domestic violence - this is the shame for the Church, not the presence of LGBT people inside the Catholic Church.
4
all churches need to start paying taxes...why should we subsidize these entities?
4
The church, especially in today's Western nations is a club with established and easy to know rules. Instead of demanding the church change, why not leave or refuse to join the club? I was born and baptized into the RC church, but never attended afterward. When my children were born I decided to try church, but never once considered the RC because of its rules on gender, etc, and instead went Anglican, where I remain today. I didn't demand the RC change, instead I voted with my feet.
2
To add insult to injury, Roncalli's rejection of Shelly Fitzgerald is partially financed with taxpayer funds. Indiana has an expansive school voucher program that gives parents government money to send their children to private, including religious, schools. Roncalli has received millions of dollars through this program over the past several years. Bills have been introduced in the Indiana General Assembly to prohibit schools that receive the taxpayer-funded voucher money from discriminating in this manner, but they went nowhere.
2
It breaks my heart that when I pay to send my child to a Catholic school, because the state discriminates against choice for children in education, that there are teachers whose lives do not embody Catholic teaching. Catholics affirm marriage is a union of a man and a woman, and our doctrine is not Obergefell's; Caesar can rule his realm, but not ours. So, yes, I am glad a Catholic school acted Catholic and dismissed someone whose lifestyle is in clear contradiction to the values we want to inculcate in children: respect for reality (including the reality of marriage) and affirmation of sexual differentiation as an essential part of humanity, not a discriminatory accident.
15
@JOHN The state does not discriminate against any child in education. The state provides public education for all. You want private school? Fine, pay for it but that does not relieve you of your obligation as a citizen to pay school tax.
Anyway, if the Church could still befuddle young women into throwing away their lives as nuns, then catholic education would still be free wouldn’t it?
63
@JOHN - Whatever. I'll bet money that you don't have a problem with people who are divorced and remarried or people who use birth control etc.
54
How do you know what teachers are “embodying “ Catholic teaching? Do you know who on staff is divorced? Having an affair? Cheated on his taxes? Advocates for the death penalty? No, you don’t though all would go against Catholic teaching. Sadly, you don’t even know which of the religious staff has been accused of past sexual abuse. This is really about publicly acknowledging sexual orientation. All was fine befor the marriage. I was born and raised Catholic, and the basis of Church teaching was always “Love thy neighbor as thyself”.
63
These truly evil people would rather die than treat people in the way their religion's founder commanded. Let them.
Almost all religion exists to increase human suffering for the purposes of control and power. It's leaders are almost universally criminals who are deserving of punishment. This goes for both Christianity, Islam, and most everything else. The civil war inside of humanity to burn these inhuman faiths from this planet must double in size.
If you are LGBT, flee these places. They are hellholes of filth and apostasy.
For all the times the Catholic church told me I was "going to hell" for my sins....hell was going to church knowing there was a very dark side that no one was talking about nor taking responsibility for. All churches or institutions of all faiths have a dark side because human beings created them, run them and then deny their dark side. We are all capable of evil and hypocrisy....even the church.
2
The Catholic Church has been a blight on humanity. They attract ignorant people who think the Church is their gateway to Heaven. They might as well pray to Led Zeppelin who also has a "Stairway to Heaven" without the Church's Criminal Abuse of Children which has been going on for centuries ! I just don't get the parents who keep sending their kids to Catholic or any religious school with everything we now know about the rampant abuse by priests and other members of the church's hierarchy ! I can't feel sorry for all the sob stories about how the church did that or this and the raging Hypocrisy about everything they say or do.
2
Frank, you left out the part where the priests rape the little boys.
3
The Catholic Church is a morally bankrupt institution.
3
Catholicism, the religion of my youth, is nothing but a huge embarrassment these days. I departed during the sixties over birth control and never seriously looked back. While from afar I always thought they were so out of touch, it wasn’t until society pulled back the odiferous scab exposing the putrid, disgusting and enormously detrimental behavior of the men of Christ. Now, it is no longer a religion but a harbor for predators creepy, salivating evil men who have destroyed completely the good that some men still do. I only hope hell has room for each and every one of these perverts.
2
And all that good o'l separation of church and state in the Constitution has landed in the gutter of history.
While other countries do not have that separation enshrined in their constitution, a German high court with oversight over employment rights just announced that the firing of the leading German catholic doctor from a catholic hospital 10 years ago broke the law.
That doctor had the gall of getting a civil divorce and remarried in sometime later in civil ceremony. Finally he made his case to the highest court, and won.
But alas in the US, oh-so- pious Catholics on our shores with lot's of money and influence, just apply for their first marriage within the church to be annulled, their children made bastards, and marry another women dressed in virginal white in their church.
Good work if you can get it.
1
@Sarah Catholic annulments don't affect the status of the children. They declare that a civil marriage did not possess one or more qualities that a sacramental marriage requires. If all the requirements for a sacramental marriage existed at the time of the marriage, they can't annul it. The children were still the fruits of a civil marriage.
1
Cruel, hateful prejudice __ whether ignorant or not.
The telling quote was near the end "It's our church, too." It isn't. Catholicism is entirely top-down control. Authoritarian. It's the Pope's church, not yours. For church governance that's bottom-up, you need the UCC's (among others).
1
Speaking as a baptized, confirmed former catholic, I can only say that the corrupt, immoral organization known as the catholic church is ripe to go into the dustbin of history. The sooner the better. Anyone know where I can get my confirmation annulled?
2
The Church has been in a slow death spiral since its inception. A belief system doesn't need a building, or rules, or men in flowing robes. Like human beings, the Church will die and the world will be better for it.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."
-Seneca
4
@db You just summed up both the Catholic Church and our current political situation in one quote. From a man who lived 2000 years ago. Thank you.
The Catholic Church breaks my heart when I hear my Belizean mother tell me about having to go to a Catholic school in Belize as a young girl, and being told, along with her classmates, that she was an animal, because her skin was darker than the European nuns. How many horror stories do we have to hear? The Catholic Church has caused so much pain and suffering for centuries - literally centuries. Hurt, shame, abuse, and fear. The nuns also told her that women were filthy. Who knows how beautiful this world would have been without that punishing, cruel institution. How much do we have to hear?
162
@Libby D And that we can be occasions of sin as females so the onus is on us to keep pure.
7
PLEASE stop the canard that the Catholic faith "considers gay people “objectively disordered.”" That's a blatant lie repeated so often that no one can offer a reference. It's dogmatic truth that NO person is EVER objectively disordered. Homosexual *acts* are objectively disordered. Cosmic difference.
As to the story, every person in ministry leadership position has the mission and duty to faithfully teach in the name of Jesus Christ and His Church. All of us fail in some manner or degree, for sure, but when we live in public opposition to the Church we represent it is a counter-witness called *scandal*. It risks leading others away from Christ and His Church while in an officially sanctioned role to lead them to Christ and His Church.
You disagree on the meaning of marriage, and the ancient prohibition of homosexual acts. Fine. Make your case. Continue your shame campaign.
But we Catholics expect our leaders - priests, deacons, religious, lay ministers, teachers, etc - to witness to the Truth of the Gospel whole and unfiltered as handed on to the Apostles from Christ or leave. It's up to us to decide what we believe and how we live after that.
It sounds like Shelly and her father are a wonderful people and I sincerely wish them God's peace and joy. But as a teacher in Catholic school she is a public counter-witness to marriage in particular, and discipleship in general. Far from a special LGBTQ+ rule, this principle should be equally applied in every case to every one.
4
The duty to faithfully teach in the name of Jesus Christ? You bet. Now name the part where Jesus condemns homosexuality, and condones excluding and shunning people. It’s time for the RCC to accept these provisions have nothing to do with Jesus, and everything to do with their own boogeymen. Wake up to the world and it’s people as God created us all, or shrink to insignificance as those actually behaving as Christ implored is leave in droves to rid themselves of the increasing apostasy of the church itself.
4
I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic school, had relatives who took religious vows, but learned early the Catholic Church did not practice what it taught...they did not treat girls/women & boys/men, equally. In 7th grade I wanted to be an "altar boy." Some of the boys who did serve mass couldn't remember lines or procedures during mass, so why not let girls do it? After all, in my class of 22, the top 3 students were all girls...we had the top scores not only in academics, but in Religion class as well.
No, I was told I could not go beyond the communion rail during mass. That has now changed but women still cannot become priests and nuns are often left in poverty in their old age while priests live very well...the women did the hard work of ministering as teachers & nurses while men said mass and went to Sunday dinners at the homes of their parishioners.
When I couldn't become an altar girl, I refused to attend daily mass, I told Sister Jane Marie I'd stay in the classroom and read. Appalled, my parents were called and my father heroically responded I had his permission to read instead of going to mass...I got far more from it.
Today, priests have more freedom and financial independence than nuns. I cannot respect a religion that will not treat women & men as equals, I had high hopes for Pope Francis, he must lead the church to treat ALL equally, LGBTQ Catholics included. I fear Indiana is not the place though, not with the likes of Mike Pence prominent.
8
There is always the constant drumbeat in the Catholic Church about " vocations". Two changes that would instantly make up the deficit and and almost- instantly fix the ongoing problems: 1. Allow priests to marry, 2. Allow women to become priests. Seems to work in other Christian churches. Alas, I don't think ill see it in my lifetime.
2
The Catholic Church has relinquished any and all hold over its flock. How any of us can attend mass without feeling the weight of the sword of Domocles is outrageous. The abuse has broadened to cover innocent deaf children? Nuns? It has spread like cancer to cover the world. It has been exposed by coverup at the highest levels. Whatever need of spiritual connection to protect them emotionally can be met without supporting the Catholic institution. I speak as one who was born into a culture that included Roman Catholicism.
1
Because I am Jewish theoretically I have no standing to criticize the Catholic Church. In fact however I have highly qualified status to offer my opinion.
Over the years I have had many Catholic friends, employees, co-workers, classmates, teachers and neighbors. I never discussed or criticized their beliefs and frankly, I never looked to engage in discussion of their religion. That was their private, personal life and it was not my place to offer any comment on their choices.
Now however life has moved on and the world has changed. My daughter, a bright and beautiful young woman brought up in Jewish tradition in a traditional Jewish home married a young Catholic man. They have a nine year old son and a five year old daughter. I have never met them. I also have never met the young man's parents or any of his family members.
Because of Catholic belief and because of my traditional upbringing in conservative American Judaism I am separated from my daughter and my grandchildren. Yes. I blame the Catholic Church and their mean spirited, evil doing, self-serving mental illness. I don't hate Catholics. Just the Church, its hierarchy, its demagoguery and its terrible treatment of anyone, indeed everyone, who doesn't adhere to it's godless message of hate of gays, lesbians, queers, transgender people and of course Jewish grandfathers who may somehow negatively influence a child of a mixed religious marriage.
My heart is broken for my grandchildren who will be taught to hate.
6
We are missing what I consider to be the two obvious root causes of the continuing rot in religious institutions in general and the Catholic Church in particular.
1) The men (almost entirely men) who populate the power hierarchy are given extraordinary sway by the flock who treats them as somehow special - representing or even standing in proxy of an almighty god. Only someone indoctrinated from childhood or incredibly gullible would fall for this ruse, yet people continue to indoctrinate their kids.
2) Because of religion's sway over people in political power, these syndicates of organized religion are given a pass on policies and behaviors that would be blatantly illegal in any other context (and get a tax exemption for it to boot!).
2
Roncalli is the family name of Pope John XXIII, he of the Vatican Council in the 60s and beloved by all Catholics everywhere. Telling.
As for the Church per se, any institution that takes 400 years to acknowledge they were wrong to persecute Galileo is rather slow on the uptake. Evolve or die, and the Church is fast expiring right before our eyes.
5
If you wish to follow the teachings of Christ, read a Bible. The Roman Catholic Church is just a worldly institution doing what they do: preserving itself at all costs. Anyone in this Church needs to reflect on whether it serves a Christian purpose. I cannot imagine anyone looking objectively at its behavior could argue it follows its own teachings.
5
I suggest we Catholics in the pews change our attitudes from, "“It’s our church, too.”
to
“It’s our church. Period.”
How? Here's a start...
1. Remember that Catholic teaching is that our conscience was given to us by God. Act accordingly while being respectful that we don't all see things the same way.
2. Politely, push back on priests who fire people for their conscience and say, tweet or email, politely, "I disagree with your management decision here."
3. Say no to pledge drives. Don't lock your money into anything long term. Make your donation each week, but don't tie it to any pledge drive no matter how much you agree with the goal. Your offering is also your vote. Increases or decrease it accordingly.
4. When you reduce your offering, give that portion to a charity you believe in like Catholic Relief Services, Red Cross or your local shelter.
5. Vote with your feet. Move to a church you like.
6. Can't find one? Honor Mass as you see fit, but once per month go to another church or study group. It helps your sanity (I was in a church where the priest ridiculed Obama from the pulpit).
7. Parents, don't be afraid to tell your priest or deacon that you have misgivings about raising your children Catholic. They need to hear it.
8. Talk to other Catholics about how you feel. You will be surprised how many feel the same.
3
Difficult choices...But, as usual Mr. Bruni discusses only one side of the coin....And essentially demands that Caesar and the EEOC make the decision...No remembrance of the Little Sisters of the Poor USSC decision? As I said, difficult choices...And all as Rome burns.
1
This is one of countless examples of a small minority making decisions for a majority. Everything evolves: Anything that doesn't becomes obsolete. There are plenty of churches out there with modern values. Members of any church with antiquated values should walk down the street to a church that loves everyone - and never look back. We must vote with our feet.
2
The church, a church of any denomination, has provided cover for child molesters, rapists, and other sexual deviants. People confide in church leadership on the assumption that these, mostly men, are good since they are doing God's work. They place their children in their care. In fact, any profession, in which adults are in the company of children in leadership or supervisory roles, provide the opportunity for child abuse. Traditionally the church has not been friendly to the LGBT community because the Bible teaches that the LGBT community is the epitome of sin. That's not right. Thank you.
1
@Southern Boy
Well, you beins Reb and me bein’ a yank, and holdin different political views too, we haven’t agreed on much. But we agree on this
Right on, brother.
1
Breaking hearts? That's like saying the mafia is breaking hearts. Sure, but how does breaking hearts compare to an endless list of deplorable crimes?
At some point you have to ask if the organization is so devoted to its own defense, at any price, that it has become a malignant evil deserving only of being abolished.
3
Calling it hypocrisy is too facile. Lack of good faith in the sense Sartre used [inconsistent positions], maybe. But reality, truth are not linear, but paradoxical. So many Catholics believe they are being painfully consistent -- not in ways I can fully understand, but in ways that represent agonal attempts at their experience of God's call. This is tragedy, not hypocrisy.
To bar a father from participating in his Church is both absurd and tragic. "Hypocrisy" suggests some deliberate double standard. This is about good souls trying to navigate the morass of rapidly changing social consciousness, not about easy blame.
1
Catholics -- we need to remember We Are a Priestly People. We Are the Body of Christ.
Not the Clergy. Not the Institution; We. Us.
We decide, as Priests -- men and women of the Laity are the Priests -- we decide as Christ's Body who teaches our children. We decide who may minister.
Catholics: Do not forget who you are.
1
Nobody is forced to attend a Catholic church, attend a Catholic school, or work for a Catholic organization of any kind.
Who wants to be somewhere they are not wanted?
You leave them alone, and they'll leave you alone.
I gave the same advice to my neighbors when a Mosque
1
Time to shut it down. Sell off the proceeds, distribute to the victims and the poor.
1
@K Hamilton...Or as Jesus taught, “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
"The Catholic Church Is Breaking People’s Hearts
It fires gay workers, vilifies gay priests..."
Correct, Mr. Bruni. The church is afraid to let Catholics meet and know gay folks. Why, the flock might start to believe that gay people are just people too - and not really the Big Bad Wolf.
Just more of the same old, same old, where religions are concerned. The Catholic church is worse than others because of its illogical, anachronistic celibacy rules. The only reason they have kept up this charade for so long is that unmarried priests won't have wives and children to inherit anything. It all stays in the "family" so to speak.
It's just their breathtaking arrogance, that in the face of overwhelming evidence of wrongdoing, they continue to try and take the moral high ground. How's that for chutzpah!
To me, the largest nail in the coffin of Catholicism, is the situation that has unfolded in Ireland, one of the most religiously repressed Catholic countries in the world. They have said "enough" and elected an openly gay, biracial leader, legalized abortion and given the legal nod to gay marriage. If that isn't letting the church know how disgusted its adherents are, then I don't know what is.
Like all businesses, (for that's what it really is,) it will evolve or perish. I think Catholicism is the Sears of religions and will be subsumed by progress, hopefully soon.
3
Catholicism is at the same point of abuse, political meddling and cover ups, as it was 20 years ago. God's got another house, in some cases, directly across the street. Why would anyone continue to be a parishioner in a Catholic church?
As the Catholic Church is tax exempt, we pay their taxes for them. Why? Why are we footing the bill for a group over which we have no say and no representation. Catholic or not, we pay for them. Taxation without representation. If they do not wish to abide by our laws of non discrimination and even decency (not serially abusing children) then they should pay their own taxes.
I want my money back.
3
Hypocrisy at its finest. We will remember these dark days of Trump as when the church ceased to exist in any meaningful way in America, and it will be dead for a generation. It will not be missed.
"Yet the church ... considers gay people 'objectively disordered.'”
It's a subtle but important distinction: It's not the person whom the Catholic Church considers "objectively disordered," but rather the orientation. It's a term that comes from philosophy and moral theology, and in those contexts it does not mean what we plain English speakers interpret it to mean.
People are more than their sexual orientation, and it's important to understand that the Church isn't saying the person him- or herself is objectively disordered.
There's a good explanation at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_teaching_on_homosexuality
Regardless, it's extremely hurtful, and the Church would be well-advised to change its attitudes and teaching.
2
I don't understand this. The Church kicks out LGBT members, but keeps the sexual predators who have scarred countless people for decades. It's time for an overhaul.
3
The Church is not about to change. No matter how many Nuns or young boys are raped.
The true act of courage is to leave the church rather than associate with a group that despises gays and women and protects pedophiles.
1
Why anyone would stay Catholic is beyond my ken. But I was not born into a Catholic family and have not had the fun and pain of breaking away from the Catholic Church, but Come on if often the people in charge cannot be held accountable for raping and overt cruelty to innocent children and Nuns? Not that secular people are any less precious, but Nuns? Who have taken a vow of chastity who are married to Jesus?
I wish Jesus would come back and give these self entitled rapists what for! And of all the horrendous things done over the centuries by the Catholic Church, I guess it makes sense that torture and cruelty have been fair game.
It is almost, if I believed in Satan, that Satan has been running the whole shebang. And Yes of course there are more decent Catholics than the terrible ones and forgiveness and all but it is kinda like the gun problem in the USA. Where the government sends thoughts and prayers, now daily to mass shootings but because most of congress is paid off not to do anything to stop the sale of guns to unfit people, well more thoughts and prayers.
Shouldn't a religion be easier to swallow, I mean not having to keep forgiving and all? Nuns, talk about spitting in God's face. well if I believed in God I would be pretty hard put to forgive. As it is I find it hard to forgive for all the wrongs done to innocent people by the Catholic church.
I'm not sure how we cherry-pick which EEOC rules the church has to follow and which they're exempt from. Can they be forced, under EEOC, to allow women to be priests? And, if we bring the church under the umbrella of federal regulations how broad will that umbrella be? Taxation? Political advocacy? If not, then which laws and regulations do we enforce, and which do we ignore? How is this any different than the accusation that the church selectively enforces it's doctrines by singling out gays while ignoring pedophile priests?
If this sounds like I'm defending the Catholic Church, I am not. What I'm trying to do is point out that this is not a discrimination issue; this is selective enforcement, where we demand the Catholic Church behave according to some rules and laws just like any other business or organization, but we excuse them from others whenever doctrine raises its ugly head. The church must not discriminate against gays, but is free to conduct its own investigations and trials of pedophile priests. It's exempt from taxation, but free to advocate from the pulpit. We are complicit in this hypocrisy by failing to understand the overlap between church doctrine and its impact on secular society.
No other organization I can think of is allowed this latitude. Either we give the church free reign to behave however it pleases, according to doctrine, or we acknowledge that it is part of our society and subject to ALL its rules and laws. We can't have it both ways.
1
I can make sense of this the Catholic Church hates gays. That is not hard to figure out. Its priesthood is hopelessly out of touch with the flock.
It is a hopelessly out of touch medieval organization and the real problem is its inability to deal with empowered women, gays or anyone else beholden to its hierarchy
The fact that anyone still goes to a Catholic Church and even brings children is amazing
The hypocrisy on the part of the Church here takes my breath away. What would Jesus say? I think, "Get out of my house."
3
The biggest problem with the Catholic Church is its failure to deal with human sexuality.We are made to be sexual human beings. We have a church that protects pedophiles not just for decades, but probably for a century or more.
The church is addressing the symptoms not the cause. We are all sexual and they refuse to deal with it. It will be its downfall.
I’m sorry. I feel for gay people in the Church. But. if, as Catholics are supposed to believe, that the Scriptures are handed down from God, do you square the notion that, “The tension between its official teaching and unofficial practice — between the ignorance of the past and the illumination of the present,” is a problem?
The Bible is not unclear what to do with homosexuals, it tells you to kill them. If this is the official policy of God, how can you e a gay Catholic. A woman priest? None of that is biblically acceptable.
My solution was easy. Leave organized religion behind. If the Catholic Church insists that the scriptures are the word of God, and not the writings of men who might have a b not towards God, then leave,
Obedient, servile belief in an unseen, all-powerful, supernatural power made known to mankind only through a privileged, secretive group of men for 2,000 years?
What could go wrong?
1
As a practicing Christian, it breaks my heart to see denominations such as the Catholic church, Evangelicals, and Fundamentalists take positions like this which are contrary to Jesus' teachings. It turns people away from not only their denominations but from Christianity as a whole.
4
The Catholic Church breaks my heart every time it deviates from the beauty of its teachings and traditions. Jesus would be utterly saddened by this misconduct, yet not surprised. Since time immemorial, organized faith has had some degree of corruption (perhaps because the nature of power). However it is my hope that the people, the laity of these faiths, rise up together against those who would use the guise of holiness for their own evil agendas.
One day the Catholic Church (and other faiths that proclaim peace & love to be their charge) will do better, and it will be because of laity's thirst for justice will no longer be contained.
1
It seems simplistic to blame all Catholic for attending a church that is guilty so much and not give money. (Though why do they need it) if they gain some spiritual solace and comfort, why not. However trying to spread the church’s word when it attacks people who don’t believe they support the hypocrisy. Perhaps raising money for abused children, participating with organizations that do that, protecting children in public schools from indoctrination, supporting birth control and supporting young families so they feel the wherewithal to carry the babies to term, challenging the Church to explore their faults including the oldest(antisemitism) through public discourse could be ways to influence the Church from within. Probably not, but maybe it could balance the most cruel of its messages. Emphasize the values of sacrifice, love, charity, inclusion and faith(blind or otherwise) that represent the best in Catholicism. Make sure you vote THAT way.
Since we know that the Pope is infallible, how is it that the infallibility of the previous pope is somehow forgotten and dismissed after historical changes to the Catholic rule-book. Yes, there have been many changes, and we all know there will be more changes made to align with the trailing end of societal acceptance, but no, I’m not throwing in with this club anymore, they are no different than any fraternal organization, except they are immensely wealthy. First, dangle a shiny object in front of devoted followers toward something more rationale & reasonable for their spiritual needs, and second, based on crimes committed, dismantle the Vatican and distribute the wealth to world suffering as penance.
2
Except that the Pope isn’t infallible unless he is acting ex cathedra, which has happened exactly once (in 1950) since it was made official dogma in 1870.
2
Once again, the church does not belong to the people but rather the hierarchy of men (who are NOT divinely inspired) who have controlled it for centuries. Until that changes, there will be no significant changes.
2
It is shocking and disappointing to see very few supporters of the Catholic Church here. I am not Catholic, but I do admire and respect the good work that the Catholic Church does around the world, especially with regard to helping the poor.
The Catholic Church is probably the largest institution in the world with 1.3 billion members. It is grounded in traditions that span nearly two thousand years. Of course, the Catholic Church is slow to change, even in the midst of our quickly changing society.
Let’s hear about some good things that that the Catholic Church is doing. Who is feeding the migrants in Mexico who are lined up at our border? Whoever is feeding the migrants is living out Jesus’s greatest commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself.”
3
@Kansas Patriot - "I do admire and respect the good work that the Catholic Church does around the world"
No. It is not the "Catholic Church"that is doing good. It is PEOPLE, who happen to ally themselves to and work through that institution, who are doing good.
They would do it with or without the Catholic Church. The world is full of organizations that are doing good and needing volunteers and financial support. There is absolutely no need to ally oneself with an organization so fundamentally corrupt as the Catholic Church.
I'd also like to point out that it is doing bad, as well as good. This is more apparent in the poorer parts of West Africa and Latin America, where it promotes "traditional families", i.e. no birth control and the subjugation of women to men, which keeps those poor in poverty.
7
And that is why this is so painful.
@J Jencks - "They would do it with or without the Catholic Church." I disagree. I was on the finance committee at my local United Methodist church and there was never any money left over to serve the poor after all the salaries and benefits were paid to the staff. I found my Methodist church to be a self-serving institution, so I left it. I haven't found another community of faith, no other institution seems to live up to the ideals and standards that Jesus commands.
I think that there are plenty of "charity" institutions that have little, if any, money left over to fulfill their mission after the people in leadership get done paying themselves.
Honestly, I don't know anything about the Catholic Church's finances. But I'm under the impression that the CC is active in helping poor people around the world, including the migrants who are lined up at our border. I don't think most other religious denominations make a significant impact on helping the poor.
Again, as I said in my original comment, I would like to know who's feeding the migrants lined up at the U.S.-Mexican border. I'm under the impression that the Catholic Church is playing a large role. Whoever is paying for the food, and cooking it, and serving it - that is who I want to support.
Hopefully, the New York Times can do some honest reporting on the topic.
4
A matter of clarification: The documents of Vatican II make it crystal clear that the hierarchy is not the "Church." The "Church" is "the people of God," and includes people of good faith who may be Roman and Orthodox Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, and non-believers. Mr. Bruni's trenchant criticism applies to the Roman Catholic hierarchy. Please read the Vatican II documents.
@Francis Dolan - So does this mean that those people of "good faith" that you mentioned above are redeemed and will have their place in Heaven, even without Baptism and accepting Christ as their Savior?
2
It strains credibility that belief systems originating more than a thousand years ago are accepted by so many people now, this despite the fact that humans living in those times were ignorant of just about everything. To explain the inexplicable in those times, humans invented supernatural spirits (Gods) and an after life to explain what the world was all about and their place in it. These myths and superstitions that Jesus and Mohammad and others proposed in those and earlier times, despite their immense ignorance, are the basis of current religious faiths that are accepted with absolute certainty by so many due to indoctrination from a very young age from generation to generation. What we are experiencing now is the legacy that ancient superstitions and blind beliefs in supernatural myths, and in an after life, has left mankind with to this day - ignorance, arrogance and intolerance - all for the sake of a comfort blanket. Enjoy reading your bible fantasies. Go figure.
9
I left the Catholic Church when:
a. it denied me the right to take birth control pills and manage my own body's capacity.
b. it asked me to sign away the legality of my children to obtain an annulment following a divorce
c. it denied me rights to take communion and participate fully in the rituals
d. it dawned on me that it's a mysogonistic patriarchy and denies the humanity, biology, and capacity of half of the population of the world: women.
26
Until parishioners protest with their wallets and leave the pews empty, the church will slow roll everything. I am heartbroken myself that I cannot participate in the "organized" part of my faith. How of you follow man made rules from a patriarchy that breaks the most serious god made ones at every turn.
6
Why would anyone want to associate themselves with an organization with which you have serious disagreement. The roman catholic church (CC) is a unique ancient institution with a slow agreement with values and progressive ideas. It is not in the business of political correctness of the times. Take it or leave it.
CC is still relevant to our current times in certain respects. It is one of the few that can give meaning to life, marriage and death and provide solace and comfort when one has lost a loved one. Just a few days ago I attended a memorial service to a former colleague, Prof. Streips in a modern CC, Epiphany in Louisville, KY. It was a touching tribute to my former colleague and a deep appreciation of his life as a teacher and it brought tears to my eyes and his little grandson offered me a tissue to wipe a tear that lingered on, I felt comforted that the family will live on through the loss of their loved one and cherish his memory. The sermons provided a closure to his being no more.
The CC has contributed immensely to the alleviation of suffering of millions of people around the world. I am myself a beneficiary of a school that was managed by Catholic priests and while I got the highest marks in Science and Mathematics from my matriculation board exam, the most important subject was moral science that I treasure to this day. Yes the CC was slow to recognize evolution and even slower to recognize the usefulness of physical barriers during sex. Friends Patience.
3
In primary school (in a European country) my husband was abused physically and emotionally. By two different priests. One of whom was later sent to an insane asylum. The excuse for abuse was that he “didn’t know his Latin.” How can a child learn well if it entails physical abuse?
The little village didn’t have a high school, so he was sent to live with relatives in a city where he was emotionally abused by an aunt while being warned away from “certain priests” by schoolmates, who KNEW that these priests were sexually abusing boys.
He later petitioned his parents to send him to a non-religious boarding school, where still religion was a required subject. There also schoolmates warned him about priests (religion teachers!) who preyed on unsuspecting boys.
Is it any wonder he has had a lifelong aversion to priests? Even though two of his uncles were priests, good priests. But a few bad apples is all it takes. And unfortunately history seems to show us that it’s not just “a few bad apples” that are spoiling the barrel. But the barrel itself is busy concealing those apples.
As a therapist and a spouse I’ve heard the stories and seen the damage - and tried to assuage the pain.
But I can’t assuage the fact that this continues. That so many have been harmed. That the damage is not just to the victims, but to their loved ones and to society at large.
I’ve seen that every institution (businesses, churches, colleges) first tries to circle the wagons & blame the victims.
3
I left the Catholic church (and organized religion) almost 50 years ago. I am a straight married woman. Nothing I have seen or heard since then would make me want to change my mind. In fact, these sorts of situations serve to reinforce my decision.
9
In judging a religious institution, it is always wise to goto its core documents. The Roman Catholic Church has always upheld the doctrine that women are the source of original sin, the sole purpose of sex is procreation, and the pope is the representative of god on earth (what about the other beautiful religions?).
The pope can try to get away with saying "who am I to judge?" but that escape hatch really means that god is the judge of sinners and the pope will take a pass to keep sinners paying their Sunday dues.
I did my research as a young teenager in the 1960s; that catechism and source documents told me -in spite of the trend of Latin American Liberation Theology- that the Roman Catholic Church and religion in general had no place for me.
Others have faith, good on them, but the Roman Catholic Church will never renounce its core values: women cannot be priests, same sex lovers are sinners, and the Roman Catholic Church is the "One True Religion."
Phooey on that.
7
My father was in a Catholic seminary in Mississippi back in the mid '50s. He was raised Catholic in a small Illinois farm town, was an altar boy and was apparently infatuated enough with the faith to consider it his calling. He was a very intelligent man and deeply introspective. But he quit the seminary after two years. He never told us what led to his break with the church, and I was too self-absorbed as a teenager to ask before he died. But his break was complete. Thereafter, he saw organized religion in general, and the Catholic church in particular, as a despicable sham that preyed on the fears and guilt of the common people. And this was way before the stories of abuse started leaking out of the church doors.
I am grateful for the fact that he had his eyes-wide-open moment and did not send us to church. I'm sure it would be nice to have had that sense of community growing up, but not being a part of it has spared me and my brothers from the retrograde dogma that is the foundation of this putrid institution. In my eyes, the Catholic church is hypocrisy in the lowest sense of the word. How anyone can attempt to defend its continued existence boggles the mind. The only ones who do, I believe, are those too fearful of the changes that need to happen. Or too comfortable with the status quo.
6
the church is confused and confusing. My first marriage was a civil wedding - not in a church, and not by a Catholic priest - though we were both Catholic. then I got a civil divorce. then when I remarried - to another Catholic - I couldn't get married in the Church because I was divorced. But that first marriage was a civil union, "not blessed" by God, etc etc. So if the church doesn't recognize civil unions because they are not Catholic, how could I be divorced and therefore ineligible to marry in the church? I still have no answer. and the same with this woman who married a woman. the marriage wasn't in the Church. therefore the church doesn't recognize it. so how can it ask her to undo what it doesn't recognize? I know this makes no sense. and that's my point. none of this makes any sense.
9
@nysf999 - Interesting. My brother was married in a civil ceremony but his second wedding was in the church because he was told his first one "didn't count."
3
All politics is loca.
All apostolic universal Catholic sacramental faith is the heart and soul of a living faith that is about forgiveness in the ways of earthly struggles for all and for all times - what breaks is what heal through the everliving application of the Gospel and its everlasting joys. To overcome weaknesses and failures is for all in service to each parish to live with the best in moral Christian Christlike path to lead and to follow - all with discretion and love that all can live in the light and as Pope Francis says transparency to do our homework and evoke the confessional grace we must never avoid and always share its beauty to heal for all times and in matters. The way is his way, our way and indeed give satisfaction to this article as a blessings truly.
1
Rome in 300 A.D. was a hotbed of religious cults of all kinds and the society was trending in the direction of anarchy. In an attempt to stave off the inevitable, Emperor Constantine picked a cult and made it the state religion, in the hopes of restoring order, which it did, for a time.
1700 years later we're stuck dealing with the consequences.
3
Martin Luther started asking hard questions about "the Church" 500 years ago after visiting Rome and discovering that the goings-on there didn't align to the Bible. There are dozens of Protestant churches in your neighborhood that would welcome you next Sunday morning. It's time to come over.
5
Faith is a choice, not an obligation and you can walk away at anytime and find your own version of your spiritual self. I understand how hard that may since the church gets its claws into people from an early age and enlightenment may have to take different paths for different people, but I only hope we all come to realize soon how to break away from misguided belief and put our feet firmly on rational ground. For so so so many years we have witnessed in broad daylight the toxic effects of religion on individuals and communities and governments and this is yet another example of how religion, and in particular the Catholic Church, violates human rights and disregards human dignity all in the name of power. For those of you who still cling to the church and support it, you are complicit in these offensives.
5
How can anyone still be a Catholic?
13
@Karen O’Hara
I suppose it's like loving football, but hating the way the NFL treats players.
4
@Karen O’Hara
It's no different than any other religion: how can anyone still be a Muslim, a Jew?
Confession alert:
What drew me to the Catholic Church was the music and Latin masses.
My attendance quickly took a powder the moment the music changed in the 60s to include folk music, guitars, and other "modern" accoutrements coupled with the mass being spoken in English. Both were a game changer for me. I didn't want to hear and refused to buy what the priest was selling.
3
@Marge Keller
I too fell in love with the quietness of the old mass. I don’t care if they say it quietly in Latin or English. But the quiet, the peace, that’s where I learned - as child - to find the peace and safety of God. And yes, there’s a loss when any sense of peace and inner tranquility is disturbed by singing and an expectation you’ll shake hands as if it was cocktail party.
Give me a quiet chapel any day. But save me from the busy crowd. I can find a crowd in the Super Market, but at least there they don’t expect you to sing or shake hands.
3
@TheraP
Obviously, two great Midwestern minds thinking alike.
In addition to the peace and quite and tranquility I found in the "old days", I always loved the smell of candles burning and the incense used during the mass. Whatever my worries were, I always felt comforted merely being in a church.
My favorite line of yours is "to find the peace and safety of God." The safety of God - I still yearn and cling and hold on to Him, especially when I find myself in the darkest or most terrifying of moments. I always feel comforted and safe after reciting the "Our Father" out loud.
Thank you for sharing your beautiful and poignant comment.
1
If it were not for social inertia, the Catholic Church would have emptied out long ago, given the many alternative denominations for practicing Christianity. There is only one way to get the attention of the Vatican: turn off the flow of money!
2
So much for "Hate the sin but love the sinner." I am sad for those believers. The church broke my heart as a child, watching my mother attend mass with us, in tears unable to take communion because she divorced a man who beat her and cheated on her, and married a man who was a good father to her children. Not to mention the nuns who dragged my brother and sister from that first marriage from class to class and pointed out their mother was going to hell because she was divorced and remarried. I'm a long time gone.
7
'... the Catholic Church is too mired in its own hypocrisy.' Only for the past 2,000 years.
3
The Anglican/Episcopalian Church is literally identical to the Roman Catholic Church EXCEPT instead of Pope we have the Queen and Archbishop. Instead of celibate parish priests we have married priests, instead of anti gay we have LGBTQ inclusion in all areas, instead of subordinate female population we have female priests. We do have nuns and monks and priests that don’t marry and they are usually in an Order of service. But they have choice. We have and celebrate all the Sacraments and have statues and art depictions, we have the rosary and Mary, we have the same worship movements and we celebrate in the church year A B C and in the cycle. We use the Book of Common Prayer much like the Roman Missal, we use the NRSV with Apocrypha, We use a hymnal. We welcome people from every walk of life no matter what. We are a freedom loving church just very Catholic. The Anglican/Episcopalian Rite is for many ousted Roman Catholics a wonderful way to stay catholic yet have the freedom to be themselves and be accepted and loved by the community. (I speak from experience, as I was catholic of the Roman rite since I was 18 due to marrying into it; when my youngest came out Gay, I knew I needed to find my way back to my Anglican roots for the sake of my children so they could have freedom and acceptance. They said it was the best decision we ever made.) As I’ve come to understand, Family and Community is a Human need. We are ALL on a Journey TOGETHER. :)
6
@L
I'd love to join. Sadly, I'm committed to serving on a RC parish council for a few more years.
Save me a seat.
The Catholic Church used the US as a dumping ground for it's pedophiles. That sounds really ugly, I know. but for me as a Catholic, I am through with the church. There is no coming back.
5
James, you ask: "Why should the Church employ people that violate the Church's moral teachings and scripture?" Because, if they didn't there would be NO ONE available to hire. Use contraception? Sorry, you can't work here. Having sex outside of wedlock? Sorry. Having sex alone? Cheating on your taxes? Again, sorry. I wish the church luck in finding thousands of pure, sinless employees.
2
What's the big deal here? This institution has forced misogyny on everyone since its immaculate conception. It was never about anything except controlling women and by extension, everyone else. It should be taxed for the political organization that it actually is. Abortion is not about the fetus, it is about controlling the women. That's why once the baby is born it is abandoned by Christianity. My heart is in no way associated with any church or religion. My brain cannot get past the corruption.
5
It's a serious subject but I'm always reminded of Groucho Marx he reportedly joked "I wouldn't be part of any club that would have me" as he spoke about his exclusion from the Friar's Club. That's increasingly how I feel about this church which has a notorious history during the past 2,000 years. On the other hand, I know first hand people I love who will not give up their faith to punish the clerics who run this operation. It's not a dilemma for me but I feel so sorry for those who show up every week and continue to donate money to things like the "Bishop's Fund" when the bishops
are some of the biggest problems by hiding alleged child abusers.
2
We are at a point in time where the public is asked by the Pope to forgive. Yet the daily practices by the Catholic Church management display a backwardness that for the Average catholic is devoid of Jesus’s teaching but man’s interpretation of the religion which has no tolerance for anything different from their view of the world God practices love the priests of the church lack understanding of the daily hardships that people experience in the real world. There religious message at times is one shoe fits all mentality.
After the Pope addresses the overwhelming sexual issues he needs to address making the Catholic Church the practicing institution that Jesus wants it to be. Not the religious elites think it should be.
Religion should not break your heart and abuse our families in the manner that the Catholic Church has done so successfully over the centuries,
Time for a new Catholic experience and the people will support nothing less.
1
As many have already stated so well, it's a closed, fascist organization soon to be regarded as completely irrelevant. Ask your neighbors, relatives and friends, do they know anyone who goes to church and particularly anyone younger than 65 years of age. We all have our stories. Abused by the a priest-friend (of my mother's and her employer) at his cottage in Michigan; watching Mercy nuns physically and emotionally abuse children in the parish elementary school all the while sucking up to wealthy families for coupons to buy their groceries. What else? Dismissing music directors, teachers, and others for being gay? No one cares what the church thinks. More importantly, why would anyone wish to work for such a group … closed-minded, judgmental, bigoted, and particularly people who are gay? Several months ago, the National Catholic Reporter (ncr.org) issued an editorial with the headline, 'Open letter to the US (Catholic) bishops: It's Over'. Yes, it is! No one should be attending Mass these days whether you like the priest, the music, or whatever; or supporting Catholic educational institutions, i.e., parish-based, private secondary,university level, in protest.
1
I am very saddened by these negative stories about the sick behavior from our priests. A few days ago the church has another scandal thousands of children fathered by Catholic priests. When is this going to end. I honestly feel we need women priests men have ruined their standing in the church.
1
It’s not just Catholics who are supposed to show compassion; it’s the basic tenet of Christianity and of all other major religions in the world. Yet, time and time again, all we hear from loud-mouthed Christians (and probably those from other religions too) is how LGBTQ+ people or anyone else who doesn’t fit their narrow view of what they believe is going to Hell, is disordered, is unfit in some way to mix with “true believers”. I have never been able to figure out how all these so-called Christians justify their stance with the message of Christ, “love thy neighbour as thyself”. He didn’t qualify the statement in any way, it’s pretty straight-forward, not difficult to understand, but apparently impossible to embody.
3
As an outsider I think the Catholic church could solve most of it's current issues by:
1. Embracing LGBT people
2. Ending the celibacy requirement for priests
3. Welcoming women into the priesthood.
I guess that's why I'm a Protestant, if you haven't guessed by now. We have our own issues around LGBTx and other topics but my community is open to all. Praying for all faiths to follow suit.
2
@Zich It would have to sacrifice its long-held Biblical doctrine to do so, at least as to your suggestions 1 and 3.
Although we are not Catholic or even religious, my husband and I sent our two daughters to a wonderful Catholic high school in Atlanta, St. Pius X.
We did so only after careful scrutiny of the curriculum, and particularly that in the sciences and social sciences.
St. Pius, an urban school with a mostly urban student/parent body, held firmly to the principle that their mission was to teach students to participate in and contribute to a civil society within the framework of agape. Therefore, what they taught in class and what the students might hear in their Sunday schools could be different, and it was up to the individual to understand both sides and make their own decisions.
The Catholic Church and its satellite organizations like St. Pius rely upon publicly-funded infrastructure, resources and support to which they do not contribute. Instead, the public - regardless of gender, ethnicity, faith or creed - is forced to pay the Church's way in return for the supposed benefits that the Church returns to society.
Those benefits are getting very sparse.. Claims of divine 'right' to flout civil law and practice bigotry in the workplace, to demonize their preferred targets, to collude in heinous criminal activity and attack those who seek justice, to deny medical care in Catholic facilities if they don't agree with its purpose - these are deeply antisocial and undermine a free society.
No more free rides for lawless abusers. The public can discriminate too.
3
@Shar ALL churches rely on publicly-funded infrastructure. Discriminating against only one denomination would violate the Establishment Clause.
@Stratman Ideally, every one - EVERY one - should pay taxes. The granting of tax exemptions for some kind of supposedly 'preferred' behavior is inherently discriminatory.
However, when the recipient of the largess places themselves above criminal and civil law and seeks to undermine both, it's time to pull the plug.
I am not anti-Catholic or anti any other religion. I am, however anti-stupid. And here's the thing: I detect a clear, bright path running through structured religions that lead straight to that stupid, with no stops. A father's gentle plea of “Please treat my daughter Shelly kindly” in the face of all that nauseating fear-driven cruelty just makes my stomach curdle.
The Church is rushing headlong for a cliff, this is a small sample of it. I don't think the Church will collapse and disappear, but I'm certain there will be a third Vatican Council, one that will make the first two look small, in our lifetimes. You heard it here first.
3
The most important point in all of this is when Shelly points out that the Church isn't firing teachers who use birth control, get divorces, or have extramarital sex. If they're enforcing rules based on their religious beliefs, then they need to be consistent. Instead, they're making a conscious choice to discriminate against a particular group of people.
2
I am distressed by the comments offering the simple, simplistic solution “Then leave the Church for another one”. These contributors, who are willing to abide by the disregard of the Church for common decency in order to remain within the cozy fold that has embraced them from infancy, should appreciate the psychological difficulty one of their coreligionists might have at the prospect of going to switching to another form of Christianity. Sad!
1
How amazing! The Church is now outing priests, Bishops, and a Cardinal, for child abuse. It has been revealed that the Church actually has a document advising that Priests fathering children should leave the priesthood, and care for their children, but no requirement that they do so.
Now the Church is purging the LGBTcommunity from schools, institutions, and lay leadership. Pretty soon there will be even fewer parisioners attending mass than there already are. It seems like the Church is committing suicide!
2
Apparently Jesus's unconditional love acquires conditions when it enters the Catholic Church.
2
If you add up the evils perpetrated by the Catholic Church they so outweigh the good that the Church can rightly be said to be an evil institution
2
Another "Christian" Church that does not do what they preach "Love".
2
Not so many years ago, the Catholic Church refused to acknowledge that the Earth revolved around the Sun; before that the Church roasted people on coals. We'd have to say it's improving (but don't get too optimistic.)
5
of course the catholic church has been abusing women and children for centuries ....not sure why gays are different. this church, so to speak, is horrific in every single thing they do. these suffering immigrants/refugees descending on our border are directly the result of centuries of abuse by the catholic church. from forcing women to have one child after the other after the other, the demand for money and withholding education. the greed of the catholic church in all areas is incomprehensible.
3
Thank you, Frank Bruni! It is no longer heart ache it is BETRAYAL. I’m what is called a cradle Catholic, educated in Catholic schools, married in the church, practiced NFP (Natural Family Planning), raises our four children in the church. Was deeply involved in the parish, my husband joked I was the “church lady.” Through the years, I began to see the corruption and debauchery first hand. I heard the whispers that “father so-and-so was a deviant” and I worked with a young woman whose Dad was an ordained priest in our archdiocese. Her dad had fathered five children, with his mistress and the family was supported with ...tithe money! I could go on, but it was clear to me, that the “holy” Roman Catholic Church was .....just ...rot!
We left the church four years ago. Took me longer to leave than it did my husband, he was done much sooner. None of my kids are practicing, I do not blame them. The RCC has been a corrupt and sick institution for centuries! Sure...many Catholics have done great things for the world, charity, etc. But the hierarchy is corrupt. And does not represent...Jesus!
To the apologists: continuing to stay and support corruption, abuse and debauchery makes you complicit!
6
One thing readily apparent from this story is the Catholic Church still clings to the concept of punishment, guilting and shaming its members to get them to toe the line. It is past time for a revolt or just leave the church as many of us have.
3
So Mr. Fitzgerald is still welcome at mass? Of course. Welcome if he continues to open his wallet and ignore his conscience. Hypocrisy indeed.
7
It is time to take away the tax exemption of the Catholic Church because of its terrible crimes against children and its cover up of those crimes.
4
@penney albany It would violate the Establishment Clause to single out a particular religion.
1
"Most Catholics support same-sex marriage, in defiance of the church’s formal position, and many parishes fully welcome L.G.B.T. people." Exactly what is Mr. Bruni defining as a Catholic? Is he referring to someone baptized Catholic, but never attending Mass? I can assure you an overwhelming majority of those attending daily and weekly Mass do no support same-sex marriage. The Church welcomes all, but will not and should not change doctrine to accommodate all. If one cannot agree with the doctrine of the Catholic Church, perhaps they should find another church.
3
Yet you and your congregates are okay with the a statistically high chance that your parish’s leaders are gay (so long as they never admit to it).
4
You are completely wrong. Majority of Mass attenders DO support all that Frank Bruni says they do! Including me, a cradle Catholic, a daily Mass atender until I couldn’t take the hypocrisy any longer! BTW look so round at Mass on Sunday, how many children per family?! Not six, eight, or more! Average is two. Catholics use birth control!
3
@Mark
You're right, insofar as your statement that Mr. Bruni should source statistical data he presents as fact.
So should you.
When you say "...an overwhelming majority of those attending daily and weekly Mass do no (sic) support same-sex marriage." where does that statistic come from? Is it anecdotal - meaning you're really refering to the overwhelming majority of those you personally know? Or are you presenting something that's been academically researched and proven? That's a real question.
2
It's worth reminding ourselves of the history of papal infallibility. That doctrine was expanded within a decade of the Church's loss of its formerly vast Papal States around 1870. This resembles a maladaptive institutional reaction to a deep narcissistic wound--"You may have beat me on the battlefield, but I'm infallible in theological matters, so there!"
The Church's hierarchy needs relinquish a great deal of its traditional power in order to maintain its credibility.
4
Well, the issue is that the quote "it's our church too" is false. The catholic church has always had a top down power structure without any mechanism for congregants or even priests to influence policy. If you're looking for democracy or the ability to evolve on issues from your faith community I'd recommend a protestant church. Particularly a congregational church where the power structure is bottom up and a simple vote dictates all decisions for the congregation.
2
@E B That's only partly true, given that denominational Protestant congregations subscribe to the doctrines of the denomination. The mainstream denominations like the Episcopal, Lutheran and Methodist churches have been losing members for years as they liberalized their doctrines.
@Stratm1- It is not just or even mainly liberalization of doctrine. Lots of us Boomer kids just did not believe the basics. I know I didn’t.
I never went back to Confirmation Class after the pastor told us that satan took human form and roamed the earth tempting people to do evil.
The Presbies liberalized over predestination but the hard core guys left and started their own branch of Presbyism. It is doing pretty well, I hear.
The Episcoplas are growing again, in large part because of people leaving the Catholic Church.
Methodists have declined. I am one. In my experience, changing the service from a distinctly protestant style to ne a lot more catholic was a major part of the problem. The rulee of the Cngregation in hymn singing was downplayed and that of the choir emphasized. ...Worship Committees...” have a lot to answer for!!
All Protestant Churches have an element, stronger or weaker, of lay control. That is a huge difference from the RCC
@Stratman
It depends on the denomination, some protestant churches have a mixture of power between church leadership and lay delegates to conventions elected by church members, so for example the methodist church changes slowly because representatives from all corners of the globe have to agree on changing policies like performing same sex weddings, but individual congregations can set their own policies on how gay friendly they are and advertise themselves as such. At least such change is democratically possible though, there is no dictator pope. The example I cited of Congregational churches (UCC) is the extreme end of bottom up governance and is non-credal, meaning that no doctrine is forced on any member.
My heart has been broken so many times by the Catholic Church over the years that it could be easily mistaken for one of those many stained glass windows found in any church: multi-colored pieces of broken glass that has been glued and soldered together, fragile yet functional and fascinating, still providing a purpose and valuable need in life.
7
Trying to be a good gay Catholic is, alas, akin to trying to be a good Log Cabin Republican. The Catholic Church doesn't want gays. Republicans don't want gays. That's just the way it is and looking for comfort in either organization is a fool's errand, as painful as that may be for people to accept. Honestly ladies and gentlemen, no one wants to be an unwelcome guest in someone's house and, luckily, there are other refuges that we can avail ourselves for spiritual guidance and acceptance.
2
Belonging to a church (in this country, anyway) is voluntary. So it baffles me that so many stay distressed about actions of its leadership. Go elsewhere. Catholicism isn't the only game in town.
2
Easy solution is stop religious exemption to state and federal employment laws. State of Oregon shut down a bakery for not making a cake yet churches are allowed to openly discriminate. Makes no sense unless your belief system is rooted in the Middle Ages.
2
@Prudence Spencer That exemption is largely the result of the Supreme Court's (correct) decision in Hosana-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran v. EEOC. While the decision doesn't necessarily apply to non-ministerial positions, it may (it hasn't really been litigated yet), the distinction between what is a ministerial vs. a non-ministerial exemption hasn't been made clear by the courts.
Joanna,
I am not condoning the abuse of children by priests and think it is terrible. The Catholic Church does not have a religious monopoly on child abuse and other religions are just as guilty. We just do not have it reported in the liberal papers. The Catholic Church of 1.3 billion members is an easy target and one that Catholic haters love to criticize. The New York Times needs to do some reporting on ALL religions. It would probably be an eye opener.
I will remain in the faith of my birth because it still has great meaning for me. I love the Mass and its other practices. It may not be perfect but it is still my Catholic Church. It will live on until the end of the age as we Catholics will see to it. We will not abandon a Church we still love.
2
@WPLMMT Ummm...you missed the recent coverage and the Op-Ed on the Southern Baptist Convention and sexual harassment, for example? Do you honestly contend that reporting Mr. And Ms. Fitzgerald's concerns about her shabby treatment is the product of Catholic-hating on behalf of the NYT? Evidence, please?
3
@WPLMMT The Times does report on all religions. It reports on how strict interpretation of Islam has prompted many young women to run away and seek asylum in the West. It reports on the perversion of Islam by the Taliban and others bent on causing terror in the world. It reports on Orthodox Jews treating women badly, not vaccinating their children, and keeping their children largely uneducated in yeshivas. Enough with the whattaboutism. If you love your Church and will not leave it, try to make it better. Shrugging your shoulders about sex abuse and human rights violation by pointing fingers at others is immoral and absolutely not the right thing to do.
3
The stunning edifices, music and art initiated by the Catholic Church should be enjoyed by all till the end of time. But the Church itself needs to go. While it has done much good in the world, the havoc it has caused is so much greater. I recently heard a person refer to herself as a "recovering Catholic". That says everything. "You keep doing that and you'll go insane", says the aging priest to me in the confessional. My feeling as a young man is I'll go insane if I don't.
The above is trivial, of course, compared to the mass slaughter by Catholic Spanish of upwards of 100 million Native Americans in the century following the arrival of that former African slave trader in 1492. The Pope suggested that the Spanish should not kill all the Indians because workers were needed in the gold and silver mines. Praise Jesus right!
There are precedents. The religion of Stonehenge is long gone. It would be good if the new "religion" were based on evidence, rather than dogma. Some of us call this science. But, in today's environment, that of course has become a bad name.
5
Methinks the Church needs to change from the bottom up.
1
The Catholic Church broke my heart when I found out I wasn't allowed to be an altar boy because I am female.
8
How long ago was that? We’ve had female altar servers in my diocese since at least the mid 70s, and my parish has a roughly equal number of male and female servers.
2
@Amy Luna
Me Too!!!
I stayed with the church until it turned its back on my son. I was raised in the church - uncle a priest, two aunts are nuns, cousins priests and nuns. My son was severely bullied at school, a Catholic one. I had him under suicide watch twice in the eighth grade. I sent him specifically to a Catholic school, my alma mater, for the Catholic teachings. The ass't principal and guidance counselor are the only ones I ever heard from upon reporting the bullying. I never heard from a teacher, the principal or the priest. Considering a teacher started it (she made fun of him in class), I thought he should have at least gotten an apology.
I'd been frustrated for years with the church's positions on gay rights, same sex marriage, death penalty (finally got that one right,) reproductive rights - the list goes on. But when it turned its back on a 14 year old boy whose pain was caused by one of its own. I was done. So was he. Frankly, my entire family is frustrated. We will never be the same nor will we ever be Catholics again. I know we were taught to forgive but they haven't even asked for forgiveness yet. Nor will their arrogance allow for it.
8
Thank you! Theresa, for you comment. How painful and horrible that your son and your family had to suffer bullying. Of all places, a Catholic school should be a safe place for everyone, but they are not. Our family has a similar story. I tell people that sure “we forgive” but dealing with the RCC is like dealing with a violent, abuser who apologizes over and over and over....and then when angry beats you up again! We forgive, BUT we then, we must walk away from the abusive relationship. We left the RCC four years ago, I couldn’t leave sooner I was too involved and loved the parish community too much. Finally, leaving has brought me peace. My faith in God is intact, God is Love, period. Peace be with you, I hope your son is well.
1
@Mari
Thank you Mari. What's sad is I know you and I only told very small parts of our story and we're but a small percentage. My son still struggles six years later but he's on the mend as are the rest of us. I hope you are as well, while I don't know you, know you and your family are in our prayers now, too. All victims are.
The Catholic hierarchy need to ask themselves a simple question: What would Jesus do? In almost every situation, from the very beginnings of the Catholic Church, the pursuit of power has outweighed the obvious answers to that question.
6
Why is anyone surprised? If for no other reason that women are still second class members of the clergy in the 21st century.
6
As a little girl, I wanted to become a nun. That wore off for good when as a high school student I became interested in history. How, I would ask myself, could the Church reconcile its faith with its heinous history? How did priests look themselves in the mirror? And how on earth could the Church expect any normal man or woman to remain always celibate or forego the pleasures of sex for procreation only? How could the Church ask people to be nonsexual beings - in fact, to not be human? Celibacy and sex for procreation only has been one of the main contributors to the downfall of the Church. The Church has always privately recognized its folly by remaining silent re its own sexual crimes, while punishing human sexuality in everyone else. It is well past the time when the Church should toss that vow aside and concentrate on healing the hearts it professes to care about.
6
The fish is rotten from the head down. I know the reason people are trying to save their faith in the church. My question is, is your faith really in the church, is it worth it, and at this point can it be done. Look to your own heart you my find your faith right there.
2
First off let's acknowledge that race is inborn while homosexuality is behavioral. The inclination may not be a choice, but the behavior is. A married man may be attracted to another woman, that is an inclination, but having an affair is a choice, behavioral. The Catholic Church does not object to the inclination, but to the behavior. The Church has certain standards or guidelines for both Cardinals and parishioners. These standards may be breached, but that is not flexibility it is negligence. If I want to be a billionaire and have a start-up business, then I should join the young entrepreneurs not the young socialists. Organizations have rules and guidelines and standards. Families also have standards. If my teenage son wanted to bring a white supremacist classmate to our home for dinner, I would say no. But after dinner, when the youngsters were upstairs, the fellow is welcome to come by for dessert in the living room and my wife and I, my son and his friend could visit and talk about anything and everything and maybe I could talk some sense to him. It’s called discretion.
1
@Tom W. Are you equating homosexuality to white supremacism? Astounding. Homosexuality is inborn by the way, some education would go a long way.
3
You are completely wrong!
2
@idnar - No, I am not equating, I am comparing. The similarity being behavior that many find unwelcome. But we can still talk to those whose behavior we don't admire. Civility doesn't require approval, just a modicum of respect.
If it were just the Catholic church that would be horrific enough, but it's not. This kind of thing has been going on in just about every denomination of every faith. Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, Evangelicals, Episcopalians, Muslims, Buddhist and Jewish denominations, on and on and on. The attention the Catholic Church is getting is totally justified and past due, but I worry that others will use it as a shield and distraction from their own crimes, and as a club to further exacerbate denominational and doctrinal differences.
2
As a little girl, I wanted to become a nun. That wore off for good when as a high school student I became interested in history. How, I would ask myself, could the Church reconcile its faith with its heinous history? How did priests look themselves in the mirror? And how on earth could the Church expect any normal man or woman to remain always celibate or forego the pleasures of sex for procreation only? How could the Church ask people to be nonsexual beings - in fact, to not be human? Celibacy and sex for procreation only has been one of the main contributors to the downfall of the Church. The Church has always privately recognized its folly by remaining silent re its own sexual crimes, while punishing human sexuality in everyone else. It is well past the time when the Church should toss that vow aside and concentrate on healing the souls it professes to care about.
2
having "survived" Catholic education from 1st grade through college, this doesn't surprise me at all. I realized by the 8th grade that all of the "teachings" were based on myth, and that going to Mass only interfered with watching NFL football on Sundays. This institution is going to fade away due to its irrelevance, like smoke in the wind
6
I am 71 now and left the church 55 years ago, due to its misogyny and hypocrisy.
What is its hold on women, especially, (while some priests' differing sexualities, even criminal ones, have been accepted and secretly supported by the church for millennia), that the Roman Catholic Church has over its "flock"? After 17 years of Catholic education decades ago, I am still recognizing and learning about the profound brainwashing this church--and many others--has done to its followers.
Greed and Arrogance? The roots of all evil. Greed for power, greed for money, both clearly evident in most bishoprics and cardinals' domains, and absolutely trumpingly ostentatious in Rome. Arrogance in its tenets of being "the one, true church," and that women started off as a man's rib, rather than our uteri growing the entire human race.
I never thought that all the lies and bullying and inferiority I felt growing up as a Catholic girl would culminate in a global scandal of pedophile priests as church "fathers" continue to bully and control women--and collect as much money as they can from hard-working women in the poorest parishes.
The greed within religion and politics today is as much a scourge of humanity as were smallpox, locusts, AIDS, and cholera.
6
Thank you for your comment. I feel the same, and I’m 65.
4
Vilify gay priests, you say? Too often, the church just runs cover for them, especially when young boys are involved. That's worse.
2
The headline for this article has it backwards. People are putting their faith in the hands of a dysfunctional religious organization and when it inevitably fails them, their hearts are broken. The solution here is easy: find another church.
4
Rename the church. It may bed one, holy, and apostolic, but is it really catholic? Or don't call it church; call it club.
1
Whenever the protection of the institution becomes the priority over the very philosophies on which that institution has been founded, irreparable damage often occurs. We have witnessed this circumstance in hospitals, colleges, trade unions and churches.
Crimes were committed, crimes were covered up, and victims were left to deal with trauma without recourse to justice.
As long as the Catholic Church, or any organization, continues to do anything less than a full and open admission of all the crimes and makes a concerted effort to partake in the healing of its victims, there will be fewer and fewer people willing to become members.
Ultimately, justice will be served by impacting whether or not succeeding generations choose to join their ranks.
2
I was never a true Catholic, but did try to obey their rules. When a guard refused to let me enter a church in Rome because the sleeves of my dress were too short...really! I decided to leave the Church and did! This all happened 50 years ago and in the time since then, I’ve become strongly anti-religion no matter what it is called. All religions rule with fear and talk of the “goodness” of Jesus at the same time.
2
Wake up and smell the incense Frank. The Catholic Church has been breaking people's hearts for years. From women told to stay with abusive husbands to children who were physically or sexually assaulted to families who were told they had to have more children than they could afford or that were physically safe for a woman to have.
Why do you think anything would ever be different?
4
Not a day goes by that I don't hear about another Catholic scandal regarding priests raping children and the coverups that have followed. I recently read a column regarding the Baptist church's that exposed the same conditions. When are people going to wake up and realize that these tax-free institutions do greater harm than good? These supposed religious institutions along with the Republican party are losing adherents by droves by ignoring the will of the people. Religion is manifest within ourselves and certainly not promulgated by preachers' wanting another jet or mansion for themselves, nor by archaic teachings that have no place in the modern world.
1
Of all the religions for a person to be lucky enough to not be born into and to not to be conditioned by and become thoroughly warped by, Catholicism is Primitive Beliefs about the Nature of Reality religion #1. The winner. Might be a tie with Islam, not sure...any beliefs that require a creator god entity are frankly absurd...
1
I was baptized Episcopalian but went to Catholic school until I was 16. There was a brief period where I wanted to convert, so I might fully participate in the way my friends did. The incredible hypocrisy and readiness to foment hatred and division drove me away from the Church as an angsty teen, and it took many years (and a degree in medieval religious studies) before I returned. The Anglican/Episcopalian Church isn't without blemish, nor has it always had a great track record with LGBTQ priests and parishioners, but is eminently more compassionate and sensible when it comes to granting people the freedom to love whom they will. My parish in Chicago is run by a gay priest and places social justice, tolerance, and equality front and center in its outreach and worship. I am glad I didn't convert, and am proud to be a part of a Church that honors the historical and devotional legacy of Catholicism without the vile corruption, gay-bashing, and sex abuse the institutional Catholic church has been awash in for centuries.
4
I am an Episcopalian with similar liturgy as the Catholic Church. As a main line church we suffer from decline of parishioners however about 50% of our churches new members are, sadly ,seeking an alternative to their Catholic Church. People do vote with their feet!
5
I cannot say I'm surprised. The Church has resisted reform with a vigor that is truly awe inspiring, despite having one of the most socially progressive congregations in the country. Nor does that seem likely to change, at least not until the current generation of corrupt cardinals and arch-bishops, men of office who have little personal connection with their parishioners, pass away and are replaced by those who are more forward thinking.
And even then, it may be too late to save the Church from itself. They have lost so much of the people's trust, not least because the Church no longer trusts in the people whom they serve and who serve them. They don't trust the victims who have been harmed by their members. They don't trust those members who have seen the rot for themselves and beg them for change. They don't trust in the wisdom of Christ's most important teachings, of having an open heart and a compassionate soul.
The only people they trust now are their lawyers.
2
Private clubs, especially those that are ancient and world-wide, can practically do as they please within the limits of humane laws (i.e., no burning alive at the stake). There is indeed a cost of reasserting dogma (not "whimsically"). It is heartbreaking for some members but also for the Roman Catholic Church itself, while its leaders may still say that the hypocrisy has actually been the neglect of asserting its rules. The gist of the article here is the lament over losing good people. However, if they cannot accept the until-lately neglected "rules" of the organization, it is mainly a tragedy of belief. (Anybody ever hear of the Protestant Reformation, as in "if no reform, we'll go form another group"?) The glue that holds people together in such organizations is based on shared personal belief or faith in something. It is not rationality based on obvious, concrete evidence that involves shared observation. So, back to my first sentence here, if the basic premise of the group includes setting forth that homosexuality is wrong, so be it. The subsequent massive loss of membership because of disagreement is a consequence that the Church may also have to face by downsizing--maybe fewer cathedrals, gold and silver services, elaborate costumes, collections of precious objects, etc., but still a group of believers. I wonder if Jesus wouldn't mind that trade-off. (Personally, I follow Marx--Groucho--in not joining any group that would have me as a member.)
Catholicism isn't alone. It's about power. Anyone who can control your sex life has you in the palm of their hands. Add to that "Do as I say not as I do" and you have the current state of dogma. The church has to dig deep to find the origins of heterosexual celibacy and those who have no issue with committing to that promise.
Spirituality has little in common with religion though religions usually spring from good intent and for the most part draw well-meaning people. Perhaps the origins were spiritual before males assumed leadership of the mantle passed down by an enlightened visionary. Once spirituality becomes institutionalized religion takes over, usually male-made, male dominated and male guesswork.
Virtually all religions are competitive, males vying for position, power, often assuming the role of intermediary between man and God to assure dominance and control.
1
I think it's terrific what the Catholic Church is doing. Please, go on. It is helping people to break free from this terrible organization.
2
Some years ago, the Catholic University I taught at was refusing to grant benefits to gay partners - a policy the faculty wanted changed; a policy that cost us good faculty. All the surrounding Universities offered such benefits.
Then an unmarried staffer told me that the head of HR, while fighting gay family coverage because of "morality", had helped her for family insurance, which covered her straight partner and their illegitimate children.
And, of course, all the divorced and remarried faculty and staff could get family health insurance; it was only gay families that were locked out.
2
I am conflicted on this issue as I am sure many others are as well. I have empathy for the Fitzgeralds and others in a similar situation. But as a conservative Catholic I have to go along with the rulings of the Church. I know I am probably in the minority but this is how I feel. I will support the Church and all of its teachings. If I was a parent at Roncalli I would be on the side of the Church even though I disagree with their decision re. the Fitzgeralds.
@Donald In short, you cannot think for yourself. Or will not.
This is what our parents and grandparents told us about Catholics back in the day. We young Protestant kids, falling away from our own churches, did not believe that. yet, it is apparently true.
We heard stories about perverted Catholic priests. We did not believe them either. And yet those stories too turned out to b e true.
3
Why not go full on Jesus and emulate Him? Ask yourself, how did Jesus treat gay people during His time? What were his teachings? Oh he said nothing about gay people? He didn't cast gay people out of his temple? What's that, he literally said not one word about homosexuality? Then why follow a church that strays so very far from Jesus' own teachings?
3
While the Catholic church may always have had gay intolerance (except priests, of course), I'm wondering if there are signs of intolerance escalating to scapegoating.
A neighbor and friend shared this anecdote recently. He is an independent contractor with a specialty (instrument tuning) increasingly hard to find in my area. His wait list is over a year for new clients, and the Catholic diocese is a long time client he dropped last year. Evidently, local churches have responded to the sex abuse crisis by increasing scrutiny on contractors, requiring supervised escorts for HVAC repairman, plumbers, what have you. A phenomenal waste of employee time. The people under scrutiny are in the building at most once a year, hardly the source of the child abuse.
But my friend, now married, has been in a relationship with his same sex partner over 25 years (a more stable relationship, he notes, than any of his straight family members). And the Catholic message to him is unmistakable: "If anyone claims sex abuse happened here, we are going to scrutinize you." As a gay man, he felt that scrutiny would end badly for him, as churches already showed their willingness to cast blame away from the true perpetrators.
2
Good Catholics need to boycott their church until change comes about. Pray at home for awhile !
2
Please provide the source to support your claim that most Catholics approve of gay marriage. I don’t believe it.
2
The Catholic church needs to liquidate it's assets and cease to exist. There is no path back. If there were a path back to innocence and service they most surely would not take it.
1
The Catholic Church is a "living fossil," and proudly so. What passes for "morality" is in fact dogma: It does not change with new insights into nature or psychology—or indeed, any of the intellectual or moral advancements of the past 2,000 years. All you can do is walk away, open your eyes, and embrace the complex glory of the real world.
3
When has the Catholic Church NOT broken hearts. It's 2000 year history is rife with:
• despotic popes,
• the Crusades,
• alignment with Hitler's Nazi Germany and Mussolini,
• Medieval Witch Hunts,
• the trials of Galileo and Joan d'Arc
• wealth of art and treasure stolen from the Aztecs, Muslims and Jews.
3
Why am I required to support religious organizations that I don't agree with with my tax dollars? Why can't churches support themselves with donations from the faithful? It's long past time to end tax subsidies for religious organizations. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religions you don't want to support.
6
The Church's ability to reframe and dismiss investigations by calling them "anti-Catholic conspiracies" has successfully thwarted efforts to force open the dungeon of evil abuse it has known of, protected, and in some cases participated in. The Papacy dismissed evidence of clergy abuse in America in particular as an anti-Catholic anomaly not worthy of responding seriously to. This dismissive response to the pain it caused will seriously damage whatever good the church might be capable of. For centuries.
I speak as an ex-Catholic from Pennsylvania, a state where the Attorney General has forced open the doors on a sickening history of abuse, but where the Church has pressured, paid and otherwise co-opted the Republican legislature to suppress the rights of victims to hold the institution accountable. Unfortunately the church has succeeded in Pennsylvania, for now.
Institutional male privilege appears to be cracking open, though, story by story. As it must. I thank God for the press!
2
The history of the Roman Catholic Church is replete with terrible teachings, actions, and hypocrisy. This article highlights he Church’s ongoing oppression based on sexual orientation and gives another contemporary for leaving it. Yet, the Sundays I chose to go to Mass, it’s still hard to find a parking spot.
While I did not realize it at the time, the Catholic Church of my Irish Catholic upbringing was very harsh in many ways and it still is but less so. I don’t know why others continue to be a part of it, but I believe more in less of the Catholic faith.
Along with who seek to live the gifts of our shared humanity in whatever ways they finds meaningful I try to find light in the darkness of life. For me, despite the darkness of the history and current Catholic Church that it is understandably too much for many, there is still some light that brightens mine.
The Church with a capital C (which means the assembly of believers around the world, NOT the bishops) is increasingly coming to recognize the dignity and worth of LBGTQ people and the love and stability in their committed relationships. We Catholics believe that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit into the heart of every baptized Catholic in order to lead us to a deeper understanding of God's will for us. If the people of the Church's hearts are changing, then bishops need to wake up and recognize that revelation! But many of our bishops have drifted so far away from the call to servant leadership that they wouldn't recognize Christ if he stood before them.
2
Religion, especially the Catholic church, is about control. When something is deemed improper by the church it is then vilified and shunned or much worse in the dark ages when burning, decapitating, and other vicious acts against heretics and sinners was all too common.
The actions of the church and it followers are the modern day equivalent of the inquisition - if laws were not in place I would not be a betting person that more extreme measures would be put to use to maintain control.
Pretending to know something you don't know is not a virtue and inflicting hate on imaginary crimes should be something we shun in our modernity.
2
Martin Niemoller's poem, First They Came, comes to mind. If all Catholics, not just those in the LGBT community and their families, don't speak out about these un-Christian, hypocritical policies, there will be no one left.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
4
This is a terrible story, but as many of the comments show, the
church has been this way for a long time. Why people are all of a sudden outraged is a little strange.
1
If God is dead, Catholic Church proves itself time and again a major force in the assassination.
RIP all superstitions of those ancient desert tribes.
3
I can remember nuns hitting my left hand during penmanship lessons because it was the "devil's hand." Later in high school, an obviously lunatic priest would cruise the rows of boys seated at their desks and stop to rub the boys' backs and comment about their facial hair. He got shipped out and another crazier one replaced him. This institution has been morally and ethically bankrupt for years. Unfortunately, people continue to suffer the consequences of its hypocrisy, but now, unlike the past, the institution is running out of hiding places.
4
The last time i set foot in a Catholic church was my mother’s funeral, and I will never go back into another one. The lies, abuse and stigma the church and its schools attached to me growing up took decades to overcome. Their treatment of women whether they be nuns or parishioners is horrific, so it’s no surprise they would turn on a trusted employee who they can scapegoat. My late mother-in-law went to her priest for counseling when her then husband was caught cheating and his mistress got pregnant, so he decided to leave his wife and three kids. The priest blamed the wife for everything and banned her from the church. Cowards who operate under the word of the lord is symptomatic of all religious organizations and I’m glad to be done with them.
2
Catholics need to decide some tough things or this cult will fall by the wayside. Are they going to continue to support the likes of Covington Catholic School in Kentucky, the antithesis of what Jesus taught! These places continue to churn out brainwashed privileged white bread that seem to serve no useful purpose in the world... Are you going to continue to harass and demean women who are faced with difficult health care choices and show blatant disregard for the many children already on this earth who are suffering? Or are you going to clean up your house, and start participating in a civil society where all people are valued, respected, honored and cherished. The ship is sailing... tick tock.
2
Tim Toomey,
You are correct to point out that this guidance counselor did not marry in the Catholic Church (yet). I say yet because this is what progressives are trying to accomplish. The Catholic Church will never approve of same sex marriage within our Church.
This woman did marry her female partner in a ceremony though it did not mention where. She expected to stay within a Catholic organization that does not approve or accept sex same marriage. She was well aware of this upon her employ and she should not have been surprised when they asked her to leave. She was free to move to a more welcoming school where they approved of gay marriage. She is still able to find a job outside the Catholic Church. There are many non Catholic schools which would gladly welcome her. She should just apply to them.
2
@WPLMMT and why should you not want it to evolve? Why "never"? you say there is a "more welcoming" school - why do you not want to be welcoming? I'll never understand.
2
It is the modus operandi, Frank. It's Constantine's church and the Roman emporium has survived there ever since. I left for the local Quaker meeting in 1964 and don't yet see any reason to reconsider.
I, too, am a recovering Catholic, (thanks for the phraseology!) and I agree that the Catholic Church is harming its own with its discriminatory practices. If y’all think it’s only the Catholic Church, however, you are sadly mistaken. The RCC worldwide is bigger than all of the others together, which has made its practices the most visible. Scratch the surface of any of them and you will find the same kinds of behavior and rules. The Southern Baptist Convention being the one in the news most recently.
The Christian Church has been around for 2000 years, none of this is new. A column in this newspaper a few weeks ago (Douthat, I think) pointed to specific stories, in the Bible, mind you, of the behaviors of the ancients who are so revered by the masses. Large or small, institutions are always about power!
2
As the article notes: The Catholic Church has said: Employees of Catholic schools are expected to live in compliance with church teaching. Yet, we now know that a large number of the clergy, including some of its leaders, do not, themselves, live in compliance with church teaching. I'm a lifelong Catholic, the kind of older adult woman who typically stands by the church, attending morning weekday masses and volunteering in church activities. But I can no longer abide the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church. Catholic lay people must stand up and take back our church. The church belongs to the people, the followers of Jesus. We can't depend on Rome or the clergy to fix it and save it. We have to do it ourselves. We may have to do it by leaving the church en masse and allowing a reformed Catholic church to arise.
5
If people really understood that Divinity lies within each of us, they wouldn't depend upon men (or women) in robes to tell them what to do, to give away their autonomy and betray their own sense of righteousness in fear of some punishing god.
9
@Diva
Right on, Diva.
1
Today, in yet the latest profoundly shocking, heartbreaking expose of priestly predation and leadership coverup, a leading U.S. news source in a multi-sourced investigative report documents decades of sexual abuse of poor, deaf children, yes DEAF, at Catholic schools in Argentina and Italy. Despite numerous warnings about this systemic criminality, including up the Church hierarchy to Pope Francis, nothing was done. Just think about that obscenity. Enough already! The United Nations, if not the International Court of Criminal Justice, needs to open an expansive Investigation of this criminal enterprise masquerading as a faith institution.
3
The seeds of disintegration for the Catholic Church were sown at the moment the first bishop covered up the crime of sexual abuse by a priest and moved that priest to another area where he could continue abusing children. That was a fatal mistake from which the church has been unable to recover and will not recover in its present form. The essence of Christianity is to be found in the basic teaching of the simple Jewish carpenter upon whose life it is based: Love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself -- including your enemies. If someone strikes you on one cheek, offer him the other. And if you want to strive for perfection, sell your assets and give the money to the poor. That's it! And that is its everlasting appeal. Everything else about the Catholic church is a political addition added onto the religion by force when the Roman Empire captured Christianity in the fourth century and made it the state religion of the Roman Empire.
Can you, in your wildest imagination, imagine Jesus wearing the wealthy garb and garish rings of the Bishops and Cardinals and insisting that his followers kneel to kiss his ring? The absolute absurdity of such an image says it all. In the future, the secular Roman appendages will all be stripped away and the heart of the Church will return to the simple, sacred spirituality of that Jewish carpenter -- the same kind of sacred simplicity that has made Francis of Assisi one of the most widely admired people of the last thousand years.
2
Religion is the problem not the solution. When people leave these Dark Age beliefs behind and embrace a more rational and thoughtful approach to themselves and others, they will be better off and so will humanity.
3
Too many people want the Catholic Church to be eliminated in this line of comments. Studies over time have shown that about there have been approximately 11,000 complaints over the years (Just Google or Yahoo, etc Church Abuse) involving about 4,500 priests, which was 1% -4% of the priests in the US during the period of probably 50-60 years. This was out of a Catholic population of between 72,000,000 to 80,000,000. Would you folks destroy a Church of that many people because of 11,000 complaints, not all of which may be true? Why not get rid of the rotten apples and rebuild the Church?
2
Because it's a fairy tale, Joel Friedlander, built on lies and using tax-free status to rob us blind.
1
@Joel Friedlander
Because it's so much easier to shout "Burn it all down!!" in the comments section.
1
This is part of the reason I quit going. There is so much hypocrisy, not only on sexual issues, but also on right-to-life issues.
Some people are not bound by church teachings on sex. Only the unborn have a right to life.
I got tired of logical conundrums, so I left. I think organized religion is, with a few exceptions, poison.
2
The Catholics should allow priests to marry. Maybe then they would leave the little kids alone. At least they would have somebody to monitor their activities.
2
I've known some very nice Catholics over the years. Salt-of-the-earth kind of people. Dedicated to their children. Solid values. 10 Commandments.
The local Priest from my hospital married my wife and I in the back yard 24 years ago, because he loved us and knew I had lost my 1st wife to a brain aneurysm a few years before. He was a wonderful man. Sweet. Compassionate. My wife is Protestant and I am Jewish. He probable went to hell for doing this.
That's the problem with the Catholic Church. They take wonderful people and make them feel guilty about doing nice things. Making love is not a sin. Caring for others is not a sin. Loving is not a sin, even if the other person doesn't fit the Church's stereotypes.
Not sure if the Catholic church can recover. I thought the "new" Pope was showing signs of being reasonable. We can only hope.
7
Just once it would be nice to see a reporter or commentator on this ask the obvious questions of their subject: "Why did you keep working at a place where you couldn't live in compliance with its teachings, as required?", and "How could you keep working at a place that considered you objectively disordered?" Instead we have just another piece about someone who wants to blame the institution instead of their own choices for being kicked to the curb.
1
Way too many Republicans in this church. Not more than the evangelicals, and, maybe, no more than the Mormons, but still - way to many Republicans.
Republicans are a vexation to the spirit.
2
I was deeply disturbed to find out that my daughter was baptized by a pedophile priest. One of his victims had been told by the bishop he would no longer be assigned to a parish. Imagine the victim's surprise upon moving to our city and finding out this priest was pastor of a parish.
Catholics tell them selves "not all priests." and overlook the rest. The only thing that will change the Church is for Catholics to stop putting money in the collection basket and walk out of services en masse.
3
Beginning in his early 60s, the famous French Enlightenment philosopher Voltaire (1694-1778)--referring to the Catholic Church--began to sign letters to his friends with the phrase "Ecraser l'infame!" (Crush the infamous thing!).
1
Actually the Catholic Church is now being exposed as the totally corrupt dishonest organization that it has been for centuries. Deceit, cruelty, cover-ups, child abuse (not just the sexual abuse but also the criminality of the Magdalen laundries in Ireland built to punish girls), the hatred and marginalization of women that has trampled women for hundreds of years in a church that sees them as nothing but baby incubators, the taking from the poor of their dimes and nickles to keep old men in Rome and in cardinals residences in around the world in wealth, comfort, and style.
This is the eye-opening that Catholics have needed for years -- forget their "broken hearts" -- it's their broken minds from the endless indoctrination that are being opened up by the continuing revelations.
2
Ah, the modern day Inquisition?
Change the word Heresy to everything the Catholic Church is doing and has been doing to women and homosexual people forever.
1
It is because of precisely this sort of behavior that I label myself a "recovering Catholic". I have little doubt that when my time comes I will harbor zero regret that I made this choice.
The catholic church is breaking more than hearts.
The predatory, corrupt, lazy men have been breaking women and families - and little boys and girls - lives for millennium.
Anyone who still supports the archaic, destructive catholic church teachings is delusional. They are common criminals, stealing from people from the pulpit f24/7. They sell guilt then pretend THEY can forgive you because they are the right hand of their god. So buy a candle. Say a few hail marys and put your money in the box. You are forgiven until next Saturday.
It is so ridiculous it's hard to believe that anyone buys it day in and day out.
An article a few days ago said everything the woman learned she learned from nuns. She learned to accept sexual abuse, lying and to be suppressed "for the greater good", which just happens to be corrupt, predatory men.
As one of the first young black weatherman said in the late 1970s and early 80s, "If you want to believe in something believe in yourself." Amen. No middle men or women needed for one to communicate with their higher power.
Time for the catholic church and other organized religions to die. Take away all tax breaks and their tax-free status. That should do it.
5
Every patriarchy will prosecute and penalize women for the same sins that men commit regularly! I don't see that this is inconsistent with any other patriarchy.
2
Sometimes the truth of what must be done to change the mindsets of those who have assaulted the freedom the Fitzgeralds deserve, is not pleasant. Although the comparison is not perfectly apt in this situation, I can't help but believe the best expression I've seen and heard so far is that of Jack Nicholson in the role of Col. Nathan R. Jessep in the film "A Few Good Men", when he said, "You can't HANdle the Truth!"
Here it is as I see it:
– Shelly Fitzgerald should wipe her feet on the doorstep of Roncalli High, walk away and not look back. Find another school that will appreciate her for her teaching skills, period.
– Shelly should learn to understand it is BETTER Shawn Aldrich will not send his third child to Roncalli. Roncalli is teaching the mindset that assaulted the Fitzgeralds. They should all be happy if Roncalli closes some day.
– Help the closeted/imprisoned gay priests to come out and not only decimate the priesthood, but to eliminate ANY group of clerics who cannot created a single fly, but who claim to have the magical voodoo words to create millions of gods.
– Reject ANY cleric who thinks he can wave his hands, mumble a mystical incantation, and forgive sin. Jesus made clear we can to that for each other.
What must be destroyed is the institution of male, chauvinist pigs who have no respect for anything or anyone beyond their own pompous glory on parade.
1
The notion of trying to correct, if not address the many problems that continue to plague the Catholic Church, is comparable to trying to save every feral cat on the planet, much less attempting to corral even one colony of cats.
While the idea is noteworthy, ambitious and must be addressed, I fear this long standing stink on many a priest's robes has developed into a permanent stain that will never come out nor be removed. Too much time of turning the head, if not the check; too much damage; too much pain; too much distrust.
1
It infuriates me when I hear and see same-sex love conflated with pedophilia! Do a search on the number of homosexuals that are pedophiles and see what you get. (Google = 0 hits)
Breaking hearts? They’ve broken laws around the world. The Church needs to be shut down and those complicit sent to prison for a long time!
To astounding to me that the Catholic Church still manages to attract new congregants. I left in the sixties after 9 years of Catholic School, where they regularly used fear and threats of eternal damnation. At the age of 14 I came home in tears because the nuns taught that missing Sunday Mass was a mortal sin - reason to be condemned to hell. Some of my family were not attending mass at that time. This control through fear is not unique to the Catholic Church. The Mormon Church wields it as a mighty club as well. I believe our constitution protects us for freedom from religion.
2
Hearts broken? Any aware human being knew what was going on for decades. These people live in fear and their denials are because of embarrassment about having wasted their lives and money on a huge scam endangering their children and messing up their lives forever.
Truth telling and "owning" up to scandal requires courage. Hopefully that courage will be more prominent as more evil is exposed.
The Catholic Church only breaks your heart if you've stopped using your head.
7
The Catholic Church has announced that there is a policy in place for priests with children. How many priests and how many children is anyone's guess. Why do they get a pass and lgbt members and staff don't?
2
Please name a religion that does not offend someone? It seems that when a person, almost always a man, talks with god that person is given instructions that makes him superior to others because he is doing gods work.
Personally I think these men of god are either delusional, corrupt, or needy.
1
Why anyone would give this institution, an organization that actively covers up child abuse, a second look is beyond me. This is how evil thrives.
1
I am sorry that their hearts are broken, but their mistake is in their loyalty to an institution that disregards humanity in favor of orthodoxy. No one is safe in the Catholic Church. The Church and its institutions should legally be allowed to exclude anyone who does not adhere to that orthodoxy so that they will be forced to change or become extinct. Those who continue to work for them just prolong the agony, for themselves and for what the Church would be if it adhered to its own tenets and not the prejudices of centuries of power-addled white men.
1
As a former Roman Catholic, raised in a town with a pedophile priest (whose name was Father Hand, I kid you not!) all I can say to the Church is...
You brood of Vipers! Who told you which people to NOT love and support? Millstones and deep waters shall be waiting for thee I'm sure.
If I sound angry, I apologize. This is what the Church has done to me.
3
When I look at this, the Church's absolute ducking (yes they are ducking it) of any responsibility to rid themselves and enable prosecution of every priest, bishop, etc who abused or tolerated abuse of children it is completely beyond me why anyone with a shred of self dignity would want to have anything to do with this morally corrupt organization.
3
I'm not Catholic, I'm an Atheist Jew. But I'm married to a self described recovering Catholic who's family includes a former seminarian, my father-in-law, and a priest - her uncle. I've been around these men for over 20 years. They're both socially and politically liberal to progressive, and yet remain devoted to this antiquated institution that absolutely does not care about it's parishioners. I don't understand it at all.
Ms. Fitzgerald is right on. If this was about biblical prohibition they'd be going after people that use birth control and engage in extra-marital sex. It's not about biblical prohibition. It's about hatred and discrimination. The sooner this ridiculous, bigoted, out of touch organization fades into complete irrelevance (and it's close), the better off the world will be.
3
@MarkN can't happen quick enough
If we understand the Catholic Church should be a more democratic institution then the comments in Mr. Bruni's article are, in the main, valid.
However, the Catholic Church is not a democratically run institution nor can it be. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, God and man. It is His church in which we are members.
He gave His authority to teach and judge to His apostles and from them to the pope and bishops. These teachings under the guidance of the Holy Spirit cannot be changed. In this case, discussing matrimony, our Lord taught that Marriage can only be between a man and woman.
If Catholics do not fully believe that the Holy Trinity is God, the creator of all, then I must ask why are they Catholic.
5
@Edward Lewis A better question might be, "why do they THINK they are Catholic" if they don't share the Church's beliefs. It's like declaring oneself a Christian and an atheist simultaneously.
1
With the Catholic Church being so fundamentally corrupt, and having been for some many hundreds of years, I fail to understand how any Catholic church-goer can believe there is truly any mystical connection between the events of a Sunday Mass in the neighborhood church (or even St, Peter's) and Jesus & God.
1
Under the First Amendment, churces and other religious bodies have the right to set their own rules re employment. Obviously, there is a line out there somewhere but the Fitzgerald situation is one where the RCC school in question has the right to act as it did.
So would a protestant Church, or a Jewish congregation.
FB’s real point is that the RCC would grind to a halt except for the fact that it employs thousands and thousands of gay priests.
What FB does not seem to grasp, however, is that many of the Laity, to judge by the comments, wish that the Church would get rid of all the gay clergy, right up through the ranks.
That is the essential conflict.
In broader terms, the argument is almost irrelevant to the non-Catholic rest of us. The recent revelations the literally worldwide sexual abuse by Catholic clergy have sickened us. The story yesterday in Wapo about the deaf children being abused at a boarding school i by th epriests who had them “ under their care” is one of the worst things I have ever heard about.
To many of us, the Catholic Church is now a thing of contempt, it’s good works notwithstanding. In short, the rights of gays to work at Catholic institutions is a deck chairs on the Totanic issue.
1
So the church fires those who don't agree with its teachings? But it concentrates on certain sins--not because they are worse, though. The worst sins are all spiritual. Do they fire people who are eaten up with spiritual pride? Apparently not. But even if being LGBTQ (have I got that right?) were wrong, it is in no way equivalent to overweening pride and ambition, which are rampant in the church, as they are in society.
2
Religious people are not that far removed from alcoholics or drug addicts. They seek that "good feeling' in mysticism. This leaves them open to the hucksterism of religion. The Catholic Church is the worst of the worst but there are others equally bad. By way of recovery these folks might read Hitchens' "Got is not Great: How Religion Spoils Everything" and Dawkins' "The God Delusion". Though raised Catholic I seem to be impervious (even as a child) to this stuff. I have the deepest sympathy for those who are not.
@Pat Luppens - George Carlin, brilliant lapsed catholic that he was said, "Religion is sort of like a lift in your shoes. If it makes you feel better, fine. Just don't ask me to wear your shoes."
Other Carlinisms on religion: www.thoughtco.com/top-george-carlin-quotes-on-religion-4072040
Later this week more than 100 of the worlds bishops will meet with the Pope to discuss "protecting children". The same Catholic hierarchy that protected their institution above moral and scriptural authority (rape of children is immoral) fires their lay employees who failed to follow church moral teaching and scripture. These employees did not commit predatory sexual crimes. The church seems incapable in discerning right moral actions in response to priest sex crimes and actions that reflect their moral disapproval of laity sexual behavior.
1
The church gets to do what the church gets to do. Religious tolerance is not for the easy parts. If the church wants to ban gays, or ban homosexuals, that is their prerogative. End of story.
If the LGTBQ+ want their own version of Catholicism, sans pope, sans edicts, then that is their arrogative. If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the latter. But the idea that the church steps into politics, and votes to ban a non Catholic woman of say 45, who got pregnant, with teens, and keep her from obtaining a morning after pill-- another story entirely. Separation of church and state.
2
In 2015, a Portland Catholic high school community rose up in outraged protest after a job offer was withdrawn because the candidate inquired about benefits for her same sex partner. School administrators, who had long practiced a quiet “don’t ask, don’t tell” acceptance despite pressure from the church hierarchy, then adopted a no discrimination employment policy. If high school girls can do it, so can other Catholics.
The question for the rest of us is why we continue to include religious exemptions in our civil rights laws. At a minimum, discriminatory policies should cost religious institutions their tax exemptions.
5
It's also sexually abusing children on a massive scale, and should be investigated by Interpol.
The Catholic Church as we know it will be gone in a generation, and it has only its institutional self to blame. This is anecdotal, but I am one of eight children from an Irish Catholic family from Greater Boston. Most of us attended Catholic schools and all went on to confirmation. Six of my seven siblings have left the Church and one is still Catholic. Neither of her two adult sons consider themself Catholic (despite being raised in the church and attending Catholic schools). All four of my nineteen nieces and nephews who were raised in the Church have left. The other fifteen weren't raised in the Church out of conscious decisions by their parents not to (among many other reasons) expose them so closely to such "astounding institutional hypocrisy" (one of my brother's quotes). We are hardly the only family like this, as most family friends have either stopped attending mass or have left the Church altogether. I can count on one hand the number of my Catholic classmates who still attend mass regularly, and I can count very few who are raising their children even nominally Catholic.
3
Vatican II taught that the Church is "the People of God." I stay focused on that, and much less on the hierarchy. I acknowledge that it's especially difficult when one's vocation of teaching or one's loving relationship are under attack from the hierarchy.
2
We took my daughter out of her Catholic Elementary school as I became disgusted by the "doctrine" being used to brainwash the kids. I now watch as my niece and nephews are filled with the same ignorance by lay teachers who have been vetted by the parish. The same parish that has had 3 pastors in the past decade reassigned to those "special" Diocese locations used to cover up their actions. I no longer think about going back to mass as I can not support an organization that has institutionally abused children, women and the vulnerable for centuries.
2
The Church is built around a specific set of beliefs based on the Bible. It's a "faith", not a democratic institution. Why does Mr. Bruni think it should abandon those beliefs in favor of some kind of democratic consensus that aren't grounded in democracy to begin with? If a majority of "Catholics" eventually professed a belief in Satan, should the Church redefine its theology at their behest?
2
Well then they shouldn’t be tax exempt
1
@J Hughes That's a different argument, and one that would have to apply equally to all churches to pass constitutional muster.
Those who disagree with the Church's teachings are free to leave it.
@Stratman
The Church hierarchy is the group that is following "Satan." Ordinary Christians are the ones trying to save it.
The Catholic Church no longer deserves to exist. It should confess, repent, and close down.
7
mmff,
They can also shutter the Jewish temples, Muslim mosques, and all Protestant churches. How does that sound to you. I am fine with this happening.
2
It all carries the whiff of Sharia law to me.
Frankly, after all the hurts inflicted on the little people it's a wonder the RCC still stands in this country.
4
How much more information does one need to see that this institution is a vile mess ? Move on people.
3
Shut the vile mess down. At the very least, revoke all tax exemptions. People and communities should NOT be subsidizing this behavior!
1
So, if you rape a child you're relocated, but if you're gay [whether you're celibate or not] you're fired.
If you're a priest and have an affair with a man, woman, or abuse a child you're relocated, but if you have a baby out of wedlock, you're fired.
This is one screwed up organization.
The scary thing is, if it's this way now, can you imagine how much worse it was 100, 200, 500 years ago when they really had power?
3
Thus an institution created to preach the inclusive love of Christ becomes in part preachers of hatred and bigotry of older, Mosaic strictures against the various categories of sinners, including gays and non-celibate priests. The Christic vision of communities of love through communion is distorted into Inquisition and religious wars. We love our neighbors as ourselves, not nearly enough.
Love is not hate. Hate cannot mend broken hearts. Had the Pharisees asked Jesus "Which is the worst of the Seven Deadly Sins?", he might well have replied, "To hate the Lord your God, and like unto it, to hate your neighbors as you hate yourselves. If you start with these hatreds, the rest will follow."
3
The continued agony that Catholics face when their Church serially disappoints them is hard to watch, but it is not surprising. The Church is unable to modernize is a business decision. Leaders in the Curia know full well that the Church's main claim to relevance is its anachronism and refusal to change. If the Church were to modernize, hypocrisy would be lessened, but the Church would fade into just another one of the mainline Protestant churches that attract ten or fifteen aging adherents each Sunday. Put another way, the Catholic Church is attractive to most because its intolerance is something stable in a constantly shifting, relativistic modernity. Read Ross Douthat in this paper to understand this, or better yet listen to his podcast on David Axelrod's show.
1
The 'Church' is not breaking hearts - Roman Catholics should know the limitations of their Church - the truth for some is difficult to believe, begets doubt that begets guilt. The individual Roman Catholic is not guilty - the Church is. One feels that they've been conned, that their religion is ruled by an organization of deceit, racism. Should that break ones heart? No...it should move one to either fight to remove all present leaders of the Church....or walk out - leave it to rot in its righteousness. Organized religion needs to be examined under a microscope, expose the vermin within.
1
The nerve of that Catholic Church, enforcing its own teaching. What is the world coming to when churches uphold their own written standards?
3
@JackC5
How does enabling pedophilia and rape, and endorsing persecution over love, "enforce it's own teaching."
3
Born and raised in the RCC and come from a long line of Catholics. Attended once recently about four years ago for a cousin’s funeral, a few years earlier for a cousin’s wedding.
I hate to see this pain and have grown so weary of these ongoing and continuous assaults upon the Souls, the Essence if you will, of human beings. I look forward to the time when people become aware that they don’t need to worship these religious institutions. If they are so inclined, they need only worship God. If you don’t believe in God or a Creator, well that’s cool, too. Otherwise, get together with some reasonable, open-minded friends and discuss stuff; be willing to learn; see what you agree or disagree with, discover for yourself why you believe or don't believe this or that. Come to your own conclusions, leaving room to change your mind.
Keep in mind: There are those who have majored in Human Behavior, and their only goal is a PhD in Control.
The Roman Catholic Church has a serious problem with "human sexuality' and badly needs to engage in therapy to correct its erroneous beliefs and practices.
Human sexuality is a biologically driven behavior.
Repressing sexual drives and behavior has consequences.
Celibacy diminishes the lives of those who practice it.
Nothing in the Bible says that a fertilized egg is a human being.
Christ taught "love thy neighbor..." but did not specify male or female.
Priests who engage in sex with minors have violated civil laws and should be prosecuted in secular courts.
Concealing evidence of criminal behavior by priests is a crime itself and should be prosecuted in secular courts.
"Papal infallibility" is an error that needs to be corrected.
4
Did the march of science and secularism empty the pews or did the backward, paternalistic, misogynistic, criminal and disgusting assault on women and children do it?
Never was there a grater force for both non-taxpayer funded, high quality education and effective caring for the poor and dispossessed that suffered greater harm and, ultimately death, from despicable and unspeakable sexual crimes against its youth, a fanatical ommitment to a twisted right wing philosophy of man and the role of government, and a heart breaking refusal to become the champion of the pure and sublime teachings of Jesus as they sorely need to be applied to the modern world.
It is so sad and tragic that Francis, seen by many as a savior for this broken church, has been unable and perhaps unwilling to take it into the twenty first century where so many broken souls truly long for a new faith, a new community a new redemptive life.
Chesterton’s famous line that Christianity hasn’t failed, it hasn’t been tried yet rings hollow. Organized Catholicism has been tried and it has failed the people.
2
The Church is a sinner and as such, tests the depth and strength of the Christian's capacity to forgive her. She is doing no worse today than she'd done from the times of the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Thirty Years War, the Guerres de Religion in France, the pogroms in Poland (after WWII), and the annihilation of indigenous peoples in the Americas. If the faithful aren't able to forgive the Church then faith is just a fancy word for opinion. If the Catholic can't forgive her, then what is faith for?
1
When an institution is completely broken by fraud the only solution is to shut it down and start over from scratch.
1
How sad. The Catholic Church has protected child sex abusers for many, many years and then unlawfully punishes a woman who is an excellent teacher and person because she is gay. I no longer go to church or support the church. My spirituality is deeper and more compassionate than the church leaders. The Catholic Church is dying and there will be no one left to save it.
We need an Inquisition. Short of that I am not going back.
1
What is involved here (and so often otherwise) is not merely hypocrisy but a Church that is itself unchristian and increasingly irrelevant, not to mention harmful to its flock and corrupt at its core.
Where ispapal apologist and "my church, right or wrong" sycophant Russ Douthat now these long suspected horrors are turning out to be endemic, not just because of the church's reticence for criticism, but a very fabric woven into church dogma? No papal bulls are going to overturn the scientific FACT that putting young males together in places that deny them sexual expression is a recipe for trauma, neurosis and psychological damage, up to and including psychosis. This is all about the church saying "we were wrong" for 2,000 years to demonizing sexuality and forcing celibacy on young human beings because it is a 'distraction' from their indoctrination of church infallibility. Victims of abuse, closeted priests, gay/straight/bi/neuter/asexual practitioners, come on over to the side of atheism, where no one cares what consensual activities you perform with other adults, where no one will force fairy tales down your throat, make you feel unworthy, sinful, doomed and unloved, and no one will shame you for the natural drives and curiosities that are part of the neural development process. Until the Vatican rescinds its tax exempt status and gives away millions to its victims and these quiet suffers of secret shames, they should put warning labels on every seminary door saying "Side effects may include self-loathing, depression, suicide, alcoholism, isolation, drug abuse and anti-humanist behavior". Sinead O'Connor said it best - "Fight the real enemy".
I don't know why people continue to include such a horrible institution in their lives.
2
Easiest way for Catholics to get the change they want is to stop giving their morally bankrupt leadership money.
As long as the cash keeps coming in, the leadership will not change.
3
In North Korea any person crossing the authorities has all the family hauled in too . This seems to be a clear parrallel . I remember programs with Jerry Springer where much more balanced views were expressed . I imagine all these uptight Bishops being locked inside Father Jack`s Underpants Hamper .That would teach them .But there is no humour or compassion in these Bishops and Archbishops . That`s why they mainly dress in Black or Purple .Anyone with a talent for choosing matching curtains or cushions would be out the door . That would indeed fill the "Practising" conditions . Having imposed their iron will like this can only leave them feeling smug. Not a very holy feeling. Smug and , let`s face it Guilty .
Look, this is an institution that still doesn't even see women as equals. They're certainly not going to change positions on homosexuality. The Catholic Church is hanging on to something that never really existed: That men and women are not sexual beings. It is therefore the ultimate irony that the church has looked the other way for so long and hidden pedophiles at the Vatican. The principles are completely screwy. And this is why the U.S. should not make ANY religious organization tax exempt. P.S.: I am a woman who was raised Catholic and am still (sort of) a Catholic because I believe in good and God and I want to help change all of this.
1
This article hits home, and I cannot imagine how any thinking person can try to justify the church's actions. For 23 years I worked for the Catholic Church, and for most of that time I was treated badly. The Church has a long history of ignoring, repressing and mistreating its employees. In 2005 I was summarily fired because I was gay. I later learned they were trying to deflect attention from actual scandals elsewhere in the organization.
My firing was front page news in the local paper, because I was publicly quite visible nad engaged in lots of civic activities. But as most of us understand, even in progressive California, where I lived at the time, churches are exempt from anti-discrimination laws if they can pretend that they are "morally" opposed to whatever they have chosen to discriminate against. Employees have no recourse, as I imagine the parties in this case will discover.
The Catholic church is morally bankrupt, inveterately hypocritical, and a blight on modern society, as witnessed by the enormous ongoing scandals of sexual abuse, not to mention such long standing scandals as the Irish laundries.
482
@Keith: It seems the Catholic church is much maligned at the expense of dealing with the bigger problems of human trafficking, rape, femicide, child brides, and female genital mutilation. The Catholic church is a scapegoat to make it easier to ignore the much bigger issues of sexual abuse. I am glad the validation of nuns being systematically raped has come to light. It's mot just about gays, and it's certainly not just about the church. I'd say it's about patriarchy.
15
Re: '...In 2005 I was summarily fired because I was gay. I later learned they were trying to deflect attention from actual scandals elsewhere in the organization..." {@Keith}
Being gay, ('out, of the closet'), is something to be proud, of!
Being closeted, (within this criminalized 'faith'), is...
Cowardly! And...
Being a molester / protecting child molesters...aka, repeated failures to report pedophiles, EXACTLY, LIKE one reports a structural_fire, to...911, IS a felony, regardless of how clever the R.C.C. / ANY faith think's it might, be / no matter how much moral credit is claimed, via homophobic platitudes-/-morally, empty posturing!!
4
@Keith. Would you mind terribly if I threw in “all organized religions” with that description? All of them are a scourge on mankind.
27
The people who run Roncalli High School and act this way bring shame to the memory of John XXIII.
Getting born is the "original sin" the Catholic Church punishes for the rest of people's lives.
3
@Steve Bolger Yes, which is why they care more about "the unborn" aka clumps of cells in the womb than actual human beings.
1
"It fires gay workers, vilifies gay priests and alienates parishioners who can’t make any sense of this."
Like this is something new?????
1
Then why do these people stay, switch parishes, switch churches, my God, switch religions entirely why do you keep on doing this to yourselves if you know the Catholic Church is not going to change, wake up ....
Among the (many) x'tian religionists I know, I can think of two, just two, who "Judge not" - focussing on removing their own "Beam" rather than fussing about other's "Motes". Anecdotal, yet telling.
Cover up of pedophile priests, firing gay employees, etc. If the catholic church were a corporation it would be closed down!!!
The Catholic Church is committing suicide in America, and is a spent force in most of Europe, starting in Italy. Only the poorest, most ignorant parts of the world, like South America and Africa, are "keeping the faith."
1
At this point, one wonders if there is a baby in the proverbial bath water.
1
The Catholic Church is nothing but big business, and their blatant hypocrisy and hate mongering will be revered by many. Look at how many people love the hate mongering and hypocrisy in the Oval Office.
1
It's OK to shuffle pedophile priests from parish to parish to cover up their crimes, but regular folks get the axe if they don't fit the Church's "moral" standards. What a crock.....
Much like the 30% of Trump cultists, the Catholic Church cult will support this kind of thinking. Looking at the events of the past few months regarding abuse, I'm disgusted. You should be, too. But, people faithfully flock to church on Sunday, finding ways to rationalize all of this.
The world would be a better place if teh Catholic Church did not exist. The evil it does outweighs the good.
1
I wonder what your conversations with Ross are like. As we continue to focus solely on the Roman Catholic Church in this paper you are calling for greater compassion. How does that fit with Ross' desire for a Church that would condemn the mass majority to hell and enforce values of the Middle Ages on all of us through the Supreme Court? Maybe if we are all going to be forced to live a Catholic life...and on the Times there seems to be only the choice between hedonism and the hierarchy....we non Catholics might be told which Church....under Trump of course...we have to follow.
1
The Catholic church is a broken institution. Then again, Martin Luther realized that 500 years ago, right? And he was applying 16th century standards. Why, in the 21st century, is anybody surprised that an intransparent, patriarchal, hierarchical and anachronistic institution would be teeming with sexual abuse, hipocrisy, discrimination, bigotry and corruption?
3
Catholics terrorized Europeans in every possible ways for 20 centuries when they had absolute power over us. Now they are breaking hearts, so sobbing.
The greatest regret of my adult life is having raised my kids in the Catholic faith. They were blessedly smarter than me and left it all behind as soon as they reached adulthood. It took me longer to reach the point of no return, but now that I am there I see clearly that the church has betrayed its people in every possible way and always has. It no longer has any moral credibility, never mind authority.
I would think, ultimately, the only thing that will bring change is if US Catholics withhold their money from the church.
Americans are certainly not the majority of Catholics in the world, but their tithes have got to be a significant portion of Rome's revenue.
If the Cardinals and Archbishops of Rome have to choose between reform or reducing their expense accounts, I bet suddenly God would start whispering revelations in Francis's ear and this absurd campaign against gays and birth control could finally come to an end.
The church should just embrace everybody and stop trying to police people's bedrooms. There are simply bigger issues at stake than trying to enforce 19th century ideas of sexual morality.
I grew up Irish Catholic, and while I left the church almost 40 years ago (when I would have been around 17), I still resent that I'd been raised this way. I guess the resent I feel now isn't so much about the hypocrisy (though surely now that I'm older and more aware of that hypocrisy, it makes me hate the church all the more) but....the sheer rigidness of the entire church...the over-arching morbidity...everything was so dour...every word and deed had potential for being 'sinful'. It was all about doing what you were told to do, unquestioningly.
While thankfully I eventually 'saw the light' (and no, not because of any church, but the exact opposite...I only saw the light once I LEFT the church!) .... I turned out quite ok as an adult, yet I often wonder how I may have turned out differently, perhaps BETTER, had I never had to endure such a dour childhood and where I was always worrying about committing a 'sin', and I was never allowed to challenge or question anything.
1
The church has always needed to victimize certain people in order to retain or otherwise regulate the delicate balance between factions within the faithful. Each diocese and each parish operate on the same principle with a high level of local autonomy.
It has nothing to do with Good and Evil. It has to do with political competition at the highest levels of the hierarchy. The battle cry of obedience to the will of God governs every conflict, largely because God has always been relied upon to never intervene or express an opinion.
1
The Roncalli's can send their children to their local Catholic School as their tuition does not go into Church coffers.
As for Same Gender Marriages - well the Bible says that is not possible.
As for Church hypocrisy - Original Sin has not gone anywhere
and it is not going anywhere. but your money can go elsewhere, let the bishops know and they, being money men, will respond.
1
IMHO, organized religion is nothing but a collection of institutions based on the love of power and money. The Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention have finally been busted for their abuse of their parishioners. You don't need organized religion to have a relationship with God.
1
Most people of my generation have had adjustment problems as homosexuality has moved from the closet to the living room. However, as we recognized that our friends and in some cases members of out family were gay, we got used to it. They hadn't changed; they were just being more honest about who they were. They were no more "disordered" than they ever were -- i.e. not at all.
The glaring exception to this is the Roman Catholic Church, which has combined years of hypocrisy about protecting child molesters and priests who were fathers in more than the spiritual sense with random savage attacks on those who challenge its hypocrisy.
Perhaps the Vatican should purge the hypocrites and the fanatics, rather than the gays. Would there be anyone left in Rome but Francis?
2
And - for all you marketing strategists out there --
"The Catholic Church - Breaking People's Hearts Since the Fourteenth Century" ...
1
Thank you for bringing the Fitzgerald’s story to our attention. As usual your editorial here is professional and you present the facts.
The Roman Catholic Church is arguably the most successful organization ever seen on planet Earth--certainly if measured by longevity. I wonder if it will survive the age of total exposure and social media where we all get to see the hypocrisy. Getting rid of gay priests would not decimate the clergy; it would more like halfimate it. Let me make a pitch: for all the decent Catholics out there who have had enough, come join us in the Episcopal Church. We have our issues too, but are warmly welcoming to everybody. You will feel comfortable with the order of service, recognize the vestments, and the music is generally better.
My mother was raised Catholic and is furious over all the abuse scandals and adaptations like “limbo.” When her sister committed suicide after being tortured by her husband who had encephalitis she couldn’t be buried with the rest of the family. She saw the hypocrisy of the church years ago and how it impacted her siblings. My aunt remained Catholic until her son showed an interest in the priesthood. He never did become a priest. He is married with kids and grandchildren. And my mother turned her back on the church years ago in anger. She decided to let her kids decide what they wanted in terms of religious beliefs. The interesting thing is how much these abuse scandals are killing her. She is furious that the cardinal lost his place in the church but won’t be punished like other abusers. It seems that the Catholic Church really needs to embrace all of its followers as they are, gay or straight or divorced. Isn’t that what god would do?
1
The priest that performed the marriage of my husband and me and baptized both our children was a soon-to-be-convicted rapist that Cardinal Law chose to hide. I'm sure they sent one of our abusers to the parish in Ohio where he came from. The way the men leading the church handled this crisis and continue to handle this crisis is a disgrace.
The hypocrisies of the Catholic church led us to vote with our feet and leave the church: women as second class citizens, disparaging gay people, abandoning social justice issues that used to be front and center in favor of the one issue aimed at further diminishing women.
It's time to stop with the hand-wringing and let this paternalistic institution fall under the weight of its hypocrisy and failure to follow its own teachings.
3
Isn't it time for people to stand in front of their local church at mass time and hand out flyers which address these issues?
7
The Catholic Church isn't breaking my heart... I've always known it for what it is.
241
@MichaelT
Me too! So glad I left years ago.
27
@MichaelT : Same here. As a small child I was sent to classes to prepare for first communion. I was horrified at the ridiculous tenets that I was supposed to learn, believe in, and memorize. I refused to go.
5
The Catholic Church and Evangelical Christianity are all the evidence I need that religion fails. When these institutions mirror, in an eerie fashion, the antagonists in the Jesus myth, the Pharisees, we see that holy text, and sacred myths are powerless against human greed and corruption. Granting people power not just over this life, but the imaginary next, was too much temptation.
The words of Jesus are powerful. The myth can inspire. The church twists these myths into hate and oppression. It is time to stop relying on myth to form our community bonds. It is past time for the pedophile hate group, the Catholic Church, to be disbanded, with it's vast wealth given to the poorest in the world, as the Jesus Myth demands.
5
The church fires guidance counsellors but not priests or higher ranking clergy who comitted crimes and covered them up.
4
You are going to have to explain to me why these folks voluntarily participate in and give money to such an organization. The Catholic Church exemplifies hypocrisy so don’t act surprised nor should it be heartbreaking.
2
A majority of American Catholics may support same-sex marriages, but Italian, Spanish, Portoghese, Polish, Latino, Pilipino, African and other Catholics do not.
1
As a 71 year old former altar boy whose family was deeply involved in the Catholic Church, all I can say is that it is about time the most successful spiritual cult in the history of the humanity is being exposed for its hypocrisy, crimes, brutality, lack of compassion and man made dogma and rules.
My hope is that the Church will be shaken to its core, women installed as leaders and that it will be taxed on its property as all religious cults should be!
8
I sincerely hope Catholicism will be relegated to the dustbins of history 50, maybe a hundred years from now. We'll look back at it's mistreatment of so many people and scratch our heads. It's inability to see that every one is a sexual being seems fundamental to it's mistakes. Celibacy is ludicrous. And a percentage of the human race is gay. Nothing wrong there, has always been a fact of human existence. More people loving each other is a great thing. So many other ways this institution gets things wrong where do you start?
Recovering Catholic
3
The history of the Catholic Church, the unabridged history is a little like reading about European Imperialism...that is it makes you wince while shaking your head when reading it. Like many former Catholics who'd grown up with generational ties to the Church it was hard quitting the Church. For me it was feeling disloyal to the Clan when finally cutting ties even though you know it's not a rational feeling to have. In the end you have to be loyal to yourself.
2
The Catholic Church has a long and storied past but it serves now to teach us one thing above all others: an institution which claims inclusion of all while actively practicing exclusion of any will wither and die from the corrosive effects of the cognitive dissonance which its actions fuel.
Religious schools should not be given a special place in either our hearts or tax laws. They subvert our nation's motto, e pluribus unum, into an empty shell: e pluribus nihil.
2
What about this scandal surprises anyone? "The Church." Ha. It might be time to consider a different meaning for that ashy smudge on that Wednesday. The shame, the shadow and the subterfuge staining the forehead of each and everyone who "omitted", whether it was knowledge, information or courage.
1
If one has a brain, and is not in the thrall of superstitious hocus-pocus, the obvious answer is to pick up and leave, taking one’s donations of time and money along with their physical departure.
Adults can only be abused by the Catholic Church if they allow themselves to be.
3
Sex can be dark, particularly at the root of the Catholic church and through its stems Within the church's establishment there is 'purity' and then there is sex. Exposing children to its embrace, especially little boys, can put them at risk. What has the Church done to its priests and parishioners? Commenters here report on the harm, the horror and the pain that The Church has caused to children seminarians and worshipers. If an astute readable history of The Catholic Church's twisted beliefs and practices concerning sex, celibacy, and homosexuality exists let circulate widely around the globe; If not yet written, let it be done.
1
I have lived in Boston for 35 years. In that time I have seen the Catholic Church go from political kingmaker to political pariah. This opprobrium is entirely of the church's own corrupt and indeed criminal doing, beginning with the never-ending scandal of sexual abuse and coverups. How ANY self-respecting moral person can continue to live his or her faith through what I consider an organized crime syndicate is beyond my poor atheist's comprehension. The church's attack on its gay employees is nothing more than a transparently cynical ploy to reclaim a moral authority it sacrificed with each and every child it didn't protect from known pedophile priests. This corrupt hierarchy will never change until it is forced to, and that will only happen when the good people in its pews vote with their feet and find another church less riddled with ethical rot and bottomless hypocrisy.
2
Nothng surprises ;e aboout the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church.
From suspecting the parish priest of my childhood and questioning my friends who were altar boys who denied my suspicions by asserting that he had not assaulted them or even touched them to the time when a priest from the Little Fathers of the Sacred Heart or some such had suggested that he and I retire to our backyard whereupon he touched my bare leg to the present-day internet searches for the names of priests whom I had known in my town of western Pennsylvania – none found! I have been following the issue of sexuality in “the Church.” Sad! Is about all I can say and best of luck to Pope Francis in finding his way out of this morass. The Church will survive and current-day apatheists like myself may even return to the fold.
And if the Little Father of the Sacred Heart had been a Jesuit, like many of my current friends, would I still have said “Hands off!”?
1
The Catholic Church had the opportunity to establish itself in truth but it chose to seperate itself from the Eastern Orthodox dogma which is the closest order to Arianism.The nature of man is with a woman and briefly no man can seperate his biology from its nature.They tried and by nature it failed. LIGHT ALWAYS REVEALS THE EVILS DONE IN DARKNESS. IT ONLY NATURAL
1
The Catholic Church is beyond dysfunctional.
Radical change is needed to save it,
To start remove all members of the clergy associated with child molestation and the ensuing cover up.
Then embrace all members of the faith, despite gender, race, sexual persuasion and the use of birth control.
Create an open faith for all, without judgement,
1
The Catholic Church has a lot of similarities with our own Government. Pope/President, Cardinal/Senate, Bishop/Representative and a lot of bad behavior with very little oversight.
2
The Catholic church needs a version of the hippocratic oath, the oldest copy of which they hold in the Vatican Library. Instead, they have a hypocritical oath. I was an altar boy back in the 1960’s, a role I greatly enjoyed. Did I allow my sons to be altar boys? No. Joy has left this church.
2
Long ago, before the church, people were compelled, as now, to explore their spirituality. Compelled to dive into themselves and find God and commune directly with it without arbiters and mediators. Spirit calls and we are drawn to it. Yet the church grew and took over, deciding that only it could commune with God and if one wanted to explore spirit then one had to go thru the church.
This church that ended up burning thousands of women at the stake for being witches, imprisoned Galileo for suggesting the earth went around the sun and tortured thousands more in the Inquisition, raped and abused countless children and treats nuns like dirt. How much more malfeasance against spirit do people need to see the folly in the church?
Spirit reins and is available to all. It can be found right there in the human heart. I get that some people need the ritual and the dogmas and the rules and norms of religion but a cult of men with a proven track record of wickedness needs to shut down.
1
The Catholic Church is a wealthy, corrupt organization and has been for centuries. People of faith would be better to live their lives according to their conscience rather than hypocritical church dogma.
2
The Catholic Church needs to be stripped of its non-profit status and it’s pedophiles prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. It is ridiculous to pretend that thousands and thousands of crimes never occurred-and against yet.
1
Considering the enormous harm that organized religion has inflicted on humanity over the centuries, perhaps, despite the pain that continues, it will be for the better when this corrupted entity destroys itself, liberating millions from its clutches. It seems that the SBC is undergoing a similar upheaval, and I have no doubt that the cult known as the evangelicals will also do so. And this is not wholly a problem for Christianists --- some of the more tyrannical Jewish Orthodox sets have also been in the news lately. Lord Acton's saying "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.: was uttered in response to the Catholic Church ruling the the the Pope PIus IX had been deemed infallible in matters of doctrine. How fiting.
This article is like a small mole on a poxy face. There are countries (e.g., Ireland, Canada, Latin America) where the entire adolescent population were handed over to the Church to be "taught," in schools run by teaching orders. Inside those institutions, especially boarding schools, as many as half the students were abused. In 'reformatory' schools, both boys and girls were raped and made to do slave labor. Whatever Roman Christianity gave to its parishioners, it took away 100 fold.
3
@Tara not to mention the Magdalena Laundries
2
In my view, it is time for Catholics to stay home. Prayer is a private thing between one person and his God. There is no need for supporting a bureaucratic middle man - one who, as it turns out - is deeply corrupt.
I urge all those Catholics with broken hearts to harness their pain and transform it into action. Take your faith in a loving God and find a new avenue for the exercise of religion. If you need connection to a faith community there are many to choose from. Please stop supporting the hypocritical works of the Catholic church through donations but even more so through continuing to send your children to participate in warped truths.
3
My Catholic church is broken and can not be fixed by the Pope or existing leaders. They are hopelessly divided and the congregants are as well. Over what? Sex. Dr. Ruth can't fix this mess. Homosexuality is ground zero. Gay people are convicted of committing a mortal sin: loving each other. But if a priest molests a child, that's worthy of protection and secrecy because everyone is a sinner. The scene from Spotlight where the priest rationalizes his crimes to the reporter at his door tells the story. Every Cardinal should resign at this week's meeting and the Pope should pick up the phone and call Shelly and her father and begin the healing.
4
What is it exactly that Bruni wants the position of the Catholic church on Homosexual sex and gay marriage to be. He understands that they view the biblical prohibition of Homosexual sex, along with its view of it as an abomination, as being just as valid today as it always was. And this is not something unique to that particular biblical view, but because they view all of what the bible espouses as being in force for the duration of human existence.
In addition the very recent change in how some people now view Homosexual sex as moral and proper is limited even in those countries where it is legal. The basis of it being legal in most Western countries is based on the idea that individual people have the freedom to decide for themselves how to conduct themselves, and that it is not the place of the state to interfere in the moral choices of its citizens. The supreme court ruling about the right to gay marriage did no more condone it than Roe decided the morality of abortion.
And even this is limited to a few Western countries. Who better than the gay community to acknowledge the relatively few countries where they feel welcomed on their beach themed vacations.
So should the church have contradicting theological positions about what the biblical view is of homosexuality based on the country in question.
Will Bruni next demand of Muslims and orthodox Jews and their religious institutions adapt his views on homosexual sex also. America is a free country.
1
@Michael Stavsen
Frank Bruni isn't "demanding" anything; he is rightly pointing out the appalling hypocrisy of an religious institution that vilifies and alienates LGBTQ people while simultaneously protecting sexual predators and pedophiles (aka "criminals") in their clergy. Sexual abuse is criminal; being gay is not.
"Church leaders know full well that the priesthood would be decimated if closeted gay men were exposed and expelled."
One small point, the use of "decimated" means removing 10 percent. According to the referred article, the percentage would be much higher.
"Compassion" in the Catholic church is a tool to be used strategically to shore up patriarchal domination. Today it is used to attack and abuse people who threaten this male authority - women in same sex relationships are a target. Course you can't just go after them, go after their loved ones too. Centuries ago this authority was used to empower European countries in their imperial quests. In 1452 Pope Nicholas V's used his authority to issue the Dom Diversas which granted Portuguese and Spanish king Afonso V which was used as moral/legal justification to seize land and take slaves. Specifically it states "We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property [...] and to reduce their persons into perpetual servitude." It is high time the Church including all of its affiliates as being part of an organized crime syndicate - one that is centuries old. So much land, material resources (gold, silver) and most importantly human lives and human dignity stolen from so many people in so many places.
1
“It fires gay workers, vilifies gay priests and alienates parishioners who can’t make any sense of this.”
Same old story, yet again: men projecting what they hate about themselves on to others.
Reminds me of a president I know.
4
Why on earth does anyone want to be affiliated with this organization? A lot of my friends are Catholic, and were indoctrinated as children. That, coupled with their families' continued involvement, seems to have created a mental prison for them. Not only have they all subjected their children to this bizarre world, they keep donating money that seems likely to go toward the defense of child rapists and their co-conspirators. If only environmentalists could create such faithful obedience!
1
Ain’t religion grand? I was raised in a devote Catholic family, served as an alter boy for years and attended Catholic grade school, high school and Jesuit universities for both college and medical school. I cannot escape three fundamental conclusions:
1) The Roman Catholic Church is irreparably damaged.
2) One does not need any organized church to lead a decent, moral, charitable and rewarding life.
3) Watching how the epic hypocrisy of other “ organized religions” are playing out in their full-throated acceptance of Donald J Trump and his cruel, mendacious, morally bankrupt Administration might make anyone question the true value of any of them.
2
I stopped attending my church (I was raised Greek Orthodox) when a priest told me I was an abomination in the eyes of God for being a lesbian but told me I could stay if I didn't tell anyone I was gay and I could never be in any homosexual relationship. This happened to me over 30 years ago, when I was in my early 20s.
The Catholic Church hasn't seemed to change its stance regarding homosexuality being a horrible thing in the thirty years since I came out and I've completely abandoned all male dominated/male led religions, which has basically left me religiously homeless.
I will not allow any religion to shame me.
2
The irony is that gay priests and bishops are the ones throwing out the LGBT members. Just like my former congressman who was so against child predators while he was lining up house pages for when they turned 18.
1
Another Catholic hotbed of hypocrisy roiled the Philadelphia area in 2015 when a beloved teacher at Waldron Mercy was fired for marrying her wife. Without hypocrisy, there would be no Catholic Church.
Not to belabor the obvious or anything, but is it a coincidence that the incidents that I have seen involve women? Are there no gay men teaching in Catholic schools? Oh wait--its the majority of priests who teach there. The hypocrisy grows.
Gay Catholic clergy cannot marry, which may be how the schools avoid firing them. It's the supreme irony that it's the marriage itself that has caused the teacher here to be fired. And that she would not have been fired if she had only kept her relationship a secret, however open.
It's mind-boggling that anyone remains a Catholic. The only way to solve the problem is to leave. Nothing short of uniformly empty churches will force the Church to change. Old white guys do not cede their power until they have to.
3
The Catholic Business/Religion had broken more faith than hearts.
“Seniors are being told that if they speak out, they take the chance of not being able to graduate,” - Nonsense.
In Indiana, there is a test called the TASC that will earn you a High School Equivalency diploma.
Maybe those seniors need to grow a spine and learn to question authority and do what's right instead of doing what they're told.
2
I am extremely disappointed in the Church but its mistreatment if gays is not at the top of my list.
Leave, thats what I did when the church told me to hate a good friend in high school, just because when he hit puberty he decided he liked men, not women.
Me questioning why the church would care led to me questioning a whole lot of other things.
There is a reason why a LOT of atheists began life as Catholics.
1
I can’t understand why leaving this corrupt, breathtakingly hypocritical institution would break a person’s heart. They should rather rejoice, that they are among the growing number of enlightened one-time-believers who have slipped the shackles of indoctrination and willful blindness. Welcome to the modern world! Good to have you! How wonderful that you can leave behind the delusional notion that because Catholicism is considered a “religion” - and contrary to millennia of evidence - it is somehow “holy.”
2
Why would anyone with an ounce of sense and self-respect follow Catholic mythology and superstition? It’s more like self abuse. The most moral, honest and ethical people I know rejected religion long ago.
2
It’s time we see the Catholic Church for what it really is, a mythological remnant of the Roman Empire that has lived beyond its usefulness to people. Humans will someday dump religion and replace it with a simple code resembling The Golden Rule.
The cruelty of Catholicism has been evident since I was a teen whose best friend, the oldest daughter in a Catholic family of 12 children. Her destiny was to be a nun and she couldn't attend basketball games because she had to stay home and wash diapers. A younger sister was allowed to become a cheerleader. My friend tried three times to become a nun until she broke from her family's decree. Her older brother ignored the priesthood and was ostracized.
As an adult, I witnessed the poverty in Mexico exacerbated by the burden of feeding many children. Even in my women's bridge club, an embarrassed hostess served one square of plain jello. Others suffered varicose veins and other issues. My sister-in-law married a Catholic and converted. After four close births her doctor told her she would risk her life if she became pregnant again. Her priest refused permission to use birth control stating giving birth would be a wonderful way to die.
Now I realize my examples are trivial from how unwed mothers and babies have been treated in nunneries and how how children have been sexually molested.
Can there be a less Christian institution?
3
I've worked in a variety of Catholic institutions for nearly two decades.The idea that the lived, day-to-day Catholic Church has a single, monolithic perspective on all social issues is as absurd as painting all of Judaism or Islam with a single brush.
The variations among Catholic parishes, schools, social organizations, etc., are broad, and any practicing adult Catholic can walk into practically any Catholic affiliated institution/organization and suss out in about ten minutes where that place stands on practically any social issue.
Over the course of a week I move from places run by Jesuits (liberal educators) to a Diocesan parish run by an openly gay priest to a Catholic mega-church obsessed with abortion and the persecution of Catholics in the Holy Land.
What happened to the person in this story is an abomination. However, she knew full well the policies of the place where she worked and was complicit in her support of this institution, apparently, for years.
It does not have to be this way. Despite the wrongheaded beliefs of the old Catholic hierarchy, Catholics of conscience need to understand that this is our Church. We can no longer remain silent until "something" happens to us, those we love. or those we are to serve as Christ mandated.
1
Ah ! But Frank, you are arguing for consistency from an entity that is used to peddling arbitrary stuff to people willing to buy into it. The whole existence of religious institutions rests on the notion that they can divide and conquer. For if they did not create that chaos, then you would have time to question what it is that they do and figure out perhaps that you don't need them after all. In this regard, the Catholic Church is no different from the umpteen flavors of their Protestant brethren or for that matter from any of the entities that aim to govern the disposition and dictates of other religious formats - Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc
2
The hypocrisy of the Catholic church is horrific. How many lives have been damaged, how many laws have been broken by the Catholic church and its leaders.
"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.
It is the opium of the people." Karl Marx
1
I had the uniques experience of being raised in, and attending the schools of, both the Roman Catholic and Southern Baptist churches. The absolute hypocrisy that I saw in both churches in equal measures surrounding sexuality, race, gender, and economic and social justice issues gave me the complete disrespect for religious authority that I have to this day, so at least the experience wasn't wasted. The reckoning that is underway in the Catholic Church and that is just barely starting in the Southern Baptist Church is long long past due. I susupect that similar movements need to occur in just about every denomination. Evil loves to hide behind a facade of good works.
2
Shelly Fitzgerald’s “problem” is not that she is gay, it is that she’s a woman, not an ordained minister of the Church and does not hide her sexual orientation. The Church apparently doesn’t have a problem with closeted, male priests.
527
@Larry Your last sentence is disturbingly true.
32
@Larry You're right! Read Andrew Sullivan's recent piece in New York magazine if you haven't already.
23
@Larry The church teaching does. Enforcement says otherwise, but it isn't necessarily tacit approval to impede or delay investigations.
Religious conscience can't be defined by one headline or another. This is the problem with organized religion in the first place. People too ready to assign guilt, too little to notice the fidelity in the body.
1
It broke my heart when we knew not to go into
father Cox's car. It broke my heart when the sisters of notre dame would switch me and then tell me my non catholic friends would never be able to get into heaven with me. The catholic church has always broken my heart.
331
@Emily
What do you think father Cox was doing?
26
The Catholic Church is what it is and always has been, an hypocrisy; as are most of the other iterations of so called Christianity. If there was a man, Jesus from Nazareth, and he were to walk amonst us today he would be appalled at what takes place in his name.
4
Unfortunately, I believe the Catholic Church is pretty much toast. Priests are the face of the church. Pedopbile/sex abuse. Abuse of nuns. Illegitimate children. I don't know how it will recover from all the scandals.
For me it all started with Vatican II. This was a drastic change to the church. The intent was to make the church more accessible to the people. It didn't help matters. In fact, over time it has had the opposite effect. Many people are still to this day against it. Something very important was lost in this change.
The church began changing as soon as Christ left this earth. As soon as man starts 'fiddling' with something the result continues to get farther and farther away from its original. The clergy started changing what Christ taught for many reasons in order to suit their aims.
Many gospels were left out of the bible and were ordered to be destroyed. Heresy was the excuse. Judas is not the person we have all been told he was. Mary Magdalene is not the woman we have been told she was. I don't like being lied to. If Christ were to come back for a visit he wouldn't recognize the church today. The church is now so far from what it was intended to be. Big reason why I drifted away. Maybe a new American Catholic Church is something to be considered. What was so threatening in the Gnostic Gospels. Religion isn't about rules; it's about how you live your life.
1
I have a relative who was abused by a nun in the 8th grade. When my mother found out about it she reported it to the bishop. What did he do?? He moved the nun to another school in northern Indiana.
3
What I cannot understand, is why the US based Catholic Churches do not break away from the Vatican. Their has been plenty of other Church denominations in the US that have broken away from the Larger Organization, and formed their regional Organization when major disagreement split the flock (Baptist, Presbyterian).
Maybe the Vatican holds all the US property deeds for churches or some other Legal issue, or is it some regious dogma like Papal Authority. The US Churches could always elect their own Pope.
Know of a Parishioner who only gives money to his church when they insure the money stays at the local Parrish and does not go to Rome.
2
OK, I feel sorry for these people, but it's the Catholic Church, for Pete's sake. Anyone can easily read what they've been writing on this subject for 2,000 years -- it's no secret. If you don't like it, you become a Lutheran or a Unitarian or something else. There's a big world of religious choices out there.
5
I tried that...Unitarian church has been a place to go for recovering Catholics. I missed the rituals of the Easter Vigil and Midnight Mass. I found a Catholic Church, St. Francis of Assisi, in Manhattan where a magnificent Easter Vigil was in several languages. Not your white suburban mother’s Catholic Church any more, it is a place where LBGT people and all peoples of the world together with their music and culture are welcome. Yes, we may mourn the loss of the familiar liturgy and suburban church community of our childhoods. But, the community has changed and the church needs to change as well.
I was put through catholic schools from 1st grade through high school.
From nearly the first in-school mass, I wondered why I had been subjected to what I had already perceived as superficial.
From the feigned piety of many of the parishioners, to the grumpy old pastor, I found nothing of value.
Though there was a myth about catholic schools having money and providing a great education, it was perpetually disproven by my friends from the area public high schools.
You could say I left the church as soon as I entered, though the moment I went away to college was my first moment of not participating in the charade.
2
No sympathy for the Catholics whose Church might be "breaking their hearts". The Church is what it is, not what gay or other members want it to be. Accept the Church for what it is, no matter what you think that might or should be. Grow up. There are myriad religions you can follow. You can even start your own religion. Anyone who suffers angst over religion needs mental health services which are readily available. I left the Church at age eighteen and never looked back. There is life after the Catholic Church.
6
The textual record or facts of a ‘Sacred’ religion could not be arbitrarily altered by human edits. Those facts may be ignored and misunderstood by a religion’s adherent but cannot be denied when plainly obvious.
A good analogy is the U.S. Constitution Vs a Holy Text. The former is the supreme law of a nation authored by men but not by a supreme or supernatural being as in the latter case. Changes or amendments to the former have been and can be made at will altering its original facts.
That the earth appeared flat and appears flat today from a pedestrian viewpoint is a fact. However that fact has been proven to be untrue. One cannot alter Sacred facts (Words) without Sacred permission; that most certainly would be an oxymoron. Having very profound implications on a rational level!
1
@Samuel Owen “one cannot alter sacred facts (words) without sacred permission.” May I ask what language God wrote His “sacred words”?
1
@Peter Douglas
Several languages historically have been written as original sacred texts. But interestingly, English was not one of those. English was codified as a national language until around 1100 C.E. as I recall.
1
The New York Times has become fixated on the Roman Catholic Church. They have had an article a day for the last few days and none have been complementary about the faith. Why do you pick on the religion which has a membership of over 1.3 billion?
No one forces a Catholic to remain Catholic or attend Mass. There is still free will in our country and one can do what he/she pleases. You can take or leave Catholicism but apparently there are still many who follow its practice.
The Church must not change its teachings to gain popularity or win favor from those who despise it. Those who do not like the faith will never embrace it. They will always find fault with this or that within the Church. They are most welcome to find a religion that suits their needs which they will not find difficult to do. There is a wide selection in which they can choose and they would gladly welcome them.
Many of us love the Catholic Church tenets in which we grew up with and do not want it to change. We are very content and will stay within the Church. This Church of over 2000 years serves an important need for us and we love it just the way it is.
4
So, WPLLMT, how do you, as a continuing practicing Catholic, deal with the Church’s abuse of children? I don’t get it. I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools, but now attend an Episcopal Church. I could not stand it anymore. My parents were denied the sacraments as my mother was previously married and divorced before marrying my Dad. Meanwhile, the priests, with tacit acceptance by the church hierarchy, were abusing children in vile ways. How do you handle this?
3
@WPLMMT
"They will always find fault with this or that within the Church."
Like enabling and coddling Priests who force children to have sex with them. Little things like that?
3
@WPLMMT As with you, I am a practicing Catholic and will stay one because of the Sacraments of the Eucharist and Reconciliation and because I try to deepen my prayer life and relationship with God. I don't love our church" just the way it is"due to the way in which the hierarchy has taken power unto itself, seeks to retain that power especially in its stonewalling of the sexual abuse scandals as well aas and Pope Francis's hypocrisy and double talk on issues of dogma and belief, his hold on the American bishops, and his selection of hierarchy who support his political views.
Yes, the NYT has spent a week bashing the RCC because it will not ascribe to the political agendas set forth by many of its readers.
Those who elect to work in Catholic agencies and schools are aware of the requirements set forth in their employment contracts. as with any employing body. If their life situations change and it is out of compliance with the employment conditions set forth upon employment, then it is incumbent on them to assume responsibility and leave. It is sad what occurred to the Fitzgerald family and I am sure their loss will be felt by many whose lives they touched.
3
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church went off the rails after Pope John XXIII died. He was on his way to bring the church into the 20th century but after his death the church was captured by the extreme conservatives lead by Joseph Ratzinger(later Pope Benedict XVI). Most Catholics do not agree with the Church’s reactionary doctrines on birth control, divorce, LGBTQ lifestyle, etc. Unfortunately, the Church has ignored science & made sex the greatest sin of all, while Christ emphasized sins against humanity.
2
I struggle with this line of thought. I'm a socially liberal non-religious person (can say atheists as we are consider worse than gay or muslim in American society). Fundamental to the entire nature of faith and beliefs and in particular to embrace membership in a particular religion is a willingness to embrace the core beliefs of the institution. I really cannot understand religious relativism. The idea you pick and choose what you like about a church is a strange idea. Should a priest be able to marry, have a gay relationship, promote abortion, express disbelief in the holy trinity, etc? American's have an odd relationship to religion. We are one of the most religious countries in the first world. We demand that our leaders are religious. A majority of Americans do not belief in darwinism and believe that Man is somehow outside of this process. Yet, we are perhaps the most hedonistic/heathenistic culture around. It confounds me
3
The Catholic Church espouses “Darwinism” or did back in the day. I attended Catholic high school, and Darwin’s evolution was taught. There are some tweaks, such that God did get things started. But still, we were never taught the Bible’s story of creation.
2
As a life-long, church-going Catholic, who also happens to be a gay man happily married to another man, I finally reached my limit with the Catholic church. Amazingly, it took me 55 years to get there. The straw that broke this camel’s back was having to deal with the church after the recent death of my mother. She was a devoted Catholic who gave generously to the church and their charities. We were nickled and dimed to the tune of hundreds of dollars during the preparations for my mother’s memorial mass and burial. My siblings and I seethed over the blatant greed on display while we were in a state of mourning. Unable to find any peace over this situation, I finally turned my back on the Catholic church and I will not return. Hypocrisy, greed and vindictiveness have become three pillars of this church and they are driving away followers and potential followers in droves. The dust bin of history awaits this corrupt, wretched institution.
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I’m sorry about the loss of your mother.
Per The Big Lebowski, ‘Just because we’re bereaved doesn’t make us saps.’ It’s not just the church that sniffs out cash, but that has to be particularly unkind.
Today, anyone who can't see through organized religion is hard headed, irrational and very easy to dupe. Since times immemorial, organized religion has existed as way of controlling people. If you are truly spiritual and believe in a supernatural force, you don't need to attend services at a church, temple, synagogue or mosque. Religion is a deeply personal choice and that's where it should stay. In the United States at least, churches exist because the republican political machinery has grown very adept at manipulating gullible populace to stay in power. Does it make any sense that a pastor routinely steers people in the direction of a political candidate? People who call themselves pious, god fearing, church attending christians are probably the most unchristian people in our world. They cherry pick from bible what suits their agenda at the time, they have little compassion for fellow human beings, and most of these people will rather die out of spite than allow their $0.02 in tax dollars go towards the medical care of their brethren. All while enjoying the tax-free status of churches.
Don't even get me started on the sex scandal. Show me one priest who abused children, that was prosecuted to the fullest extent of law and jailed. None, not one, nada, zilch. Hypocrisy at its best.
If we care about the future of humanity, we must begin to use those highly evolved brains. Else, we will be ending up in the trash pile of extinction just like 99% of past species.
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Just let it go already, without regret. Every signal sent from the Vatican on down clashes with every natural American position. Just let it go. It’s as if you won’t let go of your favourite car, even though it goes backwards when you put it in drive, only starts every other try, is left with one headlight. Time to switch cars. Or maybe get a bike and cycle away from religion entirely. It is not your friend.
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I attended a Catholic grade school, high school and college. There were some really excellent teachers there and som very terrible ones. The priests were all gay, and many of the nuns were lesbians. The hypocrisy, judgements, brow beatings was too much. I left for good and now go to a spiritual church that is all inclusive and teaches quantum physics. Can you imagine what the Catholic Church could do if they pulled themselves out of this mess and actually followed the teachings of Christ? The world would be a better place.
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Maybe the very root of the problem is that there is no God, per se, that the concept of a God rose within human beings seeking solace or meaning or direction in the proverbial cold, cruel world, and that this concept was eventually co-opted by people who saw the opportunity to exploit it for personal gain.
It is all a 2000 year old scam, continuing to this day. Decent human beings congregating in search of solace, meaning or direction in life, in the same cold, cruel world that has ever been, and they are still being exploited and used by the indecent, callous human beings in control of the institution.
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I no longer support the Catholic church because the hypocrisy astounds me. I supported the Church for years. I believe and follow the teachings of Jesus. What I have learned is the Catholic Church is a poor example of these teachings. It really saddens me.
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@Kathy S
My experiences with the Catholic Church has not only turned me off to organized religion it also makes me wonder about the existence of God to allow an abusive organization such as this to even exist.
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@VMG Conflict and struggle are what god has intended for the world, else we would start in heaven. Don't make it as though he endorses everything that happens here.
@VMG No church owns God and it's tragic that religion and faith have been stolen from you. However, there are moral values that come from all different faiths and there are wonderful observances that enrich our lives.
Please retrieve what you loved about your Catholicism that is separate and apart from the dictates of the Catholic Church's hierarchy.
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Matthew 7:16-20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.
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The "institution" of the Catholic Church is a monolith of corruption mired in the worst of human failings, seemingly irredeemable. Whilst, on the other hand, the "teachings" of Jesus Christ remain radical, socialist, generous and forgiving, promising the encompassing all of humanity down to the core truth" love thy neighbor as thyself". Oil and water. The time for a parting of the ways is finally come.
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I'm sorry, but when you set up an institution (the Roman Catholic Church) to be governed and ruled solely by men to whom any expression of sexuality is forbidden, and you task that institution with making up rules regarding sexuality, reproduction, and family life -- what do you expect? How can so many people fail to see what is wrong with this picture?
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I can never understand why people belonging to any particular religion would be bewildered by the officials actually adhering to their own stated prejudices and rules. The Catholic church has always been anti-homosexual. How people can stay in the church when they vehemently disagree with foundational doctrine makes no sense to me.
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The R.C.C. is a medieval construct. That it continues to hold sway is sad. Modeling a life after what we understand to be the magnanimity and compassion of Jesus is a swell, if little practiced, notion. Jesus would not recognize, and certainly would not join, today's Church.
1
I sympathize with these people, but they knew what the Church stood for. Leave and find another Christian church that will welcome you. Better yet, realize that all religions are made by people and reflect people's prejudice.
I will never understand this.
I once asked a smart, progressive woman whom I respect: Why do you keep going to this church? Why are you paying to send your kids to parochial school? She told me that she's sickened by the abuse scandals and the obvious hypocrisy, but she stays, and allows her kids to be part and parcel, out of a sense of community. She told me that she sits near the back during Mass and tunes it out, focusing instead on inner thoughts. Another friend who no longer can take communion because he's divorced also has strong ties to a church that considers him less than equal but still expects him to pony up when the collection plate comes around. He couldn't articulate when I asked him: Why are you part of an institution that doesn't want to be a part of you? "It's complicated," he told me.
A sense of community? Complicated? Rubbish.
If parishioners refused to give money, this would be solved in a New York minute, and the solution(s) are obvious, it would seem. I am not Catholic. I suppose I'll never understand. But smart people who have power, and coin, can't seem to appreciate that they can change this for the better. They won't.
I'll never understand. May God have mercy on the Catholic church.
I can't see the Catholic Church bouncing back anymore. To me, this is the beginning of a long coming end. I went to Catholic schools, received sacraments, the whole nine yards. Have seen the hypocrisy since I was a teenager. It is quite sad. But when you have an institution comprised in the high echelons totally of men and give them great power, throw in "celibacy" as a life rule...well. I feel greatly for the people of faith that don't know what to do.
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I think that one becomes aware of one's sexual nature very early in life. For myself I recall having very strong feelings toward girls when I was just 6 or 7, only defining that as being heterosexual when reading about such things much later on. Homosexual people must become aware of their feelings very early too, and at least at first, if not interfered with by others around them, they must regard these feelings as something wonderful and natural.
And then the churches come along and impose their control, for after all what do political entities like the Catholic Church have to do with love?
A person who knows for oneself what is their inner sense and feeling, having found it out by their own experience, can never accept what a church decrees about their life. Someone with courage will just walk away and never look back.
Jesus did that didn't he?
Perhaps the failure of the Church to evolve will lead to a schism - the birth of a new church where practicing Catholics can find a more welcoming, inclusive community of worship where both 'non-traditional' priests and parishioners can flourish - without the weight of scandal crushing the current regime.
Mr. Bruni:
Why should the Church employ people that violate the Church's moral teachings and scripture?
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@James
Because they continue to employ people who are divorced, who use birth control, who have had affairs, who eat pork, who wear clothing of mixed materials, who take the name of the lord in vain, etc. If they are going to fire good employees because they go against the moral teachings of the church, they should not get to pick and choose which moral teachings they wish to enforce above all.
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@James
You mean like predator priests, divorced and remarried people, people who use birth control? The Church hasn't had a problem with any of that - they blandly look over those things. The hypocrisy stuns me.
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@James
Do Orthodox/ Hasidic and Muslim schools enforce the same policies regarding gay employees ?
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Not being a Catholic, it's hard for me to understand this. Why do Catholics think the church should change for them? Who hasn't known, for hundreds, no thousands, of years that the church thinks homosexuality is a sin? (To be fair, so do most other religions, too.) To then be so offended when a gay person is told he/she is unwanted by the church seems more than a little disingenuous. There's a church on every street corner in America. Just pick another one.
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Imagine if they gave a Mass and nobody came. Now make it a reality.
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