The way people talk about this, it's like New York is writing a check for $3billion to Jeff Bezos. Hopefully for most it's obvious this is not the case. But to be clear: The states revenue will *increase* by an estimated $27 billion if Amazon comes to NYC.
Yes, the economy in New York (as in the nation) is strong right now. But it's hubris to say that things will always be this way. If Gianaris gets confirmed and somehow manages to block this deal, he better be ready to take calls from 25,000 New Yorkers during the next downturn, wondering why he turned away Amazon during better economic times.
As a Democrat New Yorker who doesn't always agree with Cuomo, this is something that I can support him 100 percent on.
4
I can't believe all the spiteful hatred that is being heaped on Amazon here. NYC has so many businessnes owned by multimillionaires who get crazy tax breaks while paying their workers minimum wage. No one even mentions that. Its much easier to sit on your high horse and hate on Amazon. Much easier to throw away someone else's job opportunity than deal with reality.
All the haters - are they bringing any jobs in? No. Me? I LOVE that Amazon is coming. I know so many unemployed people and underemployed people in Queens who want to work with them. I want to work with them.
6
Once upon a time pioneers hitched up their horses and oxen to wagon and went forth to found cities. All those cities are full now, but no one ever thinks to start a new city any more. They could use the jobs in Wyoming. Or North Dakota. Or Idaho. Why doesn't multi-billionaire Bezos start his own city? He'd have to build up the infrastructure from scratch, like other have before him, but he can afford it.
3
Cuomo as he gets older is turning into a disaster. Amazon does not deserve $3 billion in tax breaks, so Bezos can get even wealthier. He is worth about 140 billion, why give him one dollar. There has to be fiscal responsibility. tax revenue declined due to the wealthy moving their address to Florida to save on taxes. The MTA is falling apart, and Cuomo is losing touch . There is no chance that he would ever be President with this idiotic strategy. Raise taxes on the wealthy to help pay for the subway. If anything make the subway free and make a higher corporate tax rate. Tax billionaires at higher rates. Hedge funds do not pay enough in
taxes. Long Island City has not built a new hospital, new schools, and everything is already overcrowded. Stop the nonsense, and do not subsidize Amazon. City services are already overwhelmed. Who in their right mind would give tax breaks to Bezos who just left his wife and children and broke up his previous friends marriage and now wants a tax break that will put stress on city revenue. . Stop the nonsense. Cuomo supports abortions in the third trimester, he forgot where he comes from. Cuomo do not forget where you come from, you will never be President.
3
I do wish someone in NY state government would kill this deal. The way big corporations have gotten cities and states to bid on keeping or attracting them, is obscene, and a sad demonstration of the utterly self-serving power of these corporations. Let's end the bidding. Let the corporations decide to locate based on their business needs, not the subsidies.
4
Amazon, please immediately send the rest of those jobs to Washington, DC. We know that in our wonderful economic system of American capitalism, the best in the world, one has to spend money to make money. Period!
2
Sen. Gianaris is trying to showboat for the leftists. I am a constituent of Sen. Gianaris and I can tell you, he does not represent the majority opinion here. He has not even articulated *why* he is against the deal. Indeed, from this article he is against it no matter what! Cheap political points are easy, but it takes courage to recognize that technology is the future and cities either get out in front of it, by being hubs of innovation, or are made irrelevant by it. Technology firms beget other technology firms, which beget local business, which beget employment! This Queens resident supports this deal. Sen. Gianaris, I sent you 3 emails on this and other matters over the last two months. I have, so far, received 0 responses. Perhaps you do not like hearing from constituents who defy your narrative?
5
Amazon would have come here and paid to do so. That the mayor and governor offered so much of our tax dollars to them reeks to high heaven. And do note that the governor-appointed CUNY Board of Trustees is planning to raise tuition on students every year. It makes a lot of sense to give money to Amazon on promised jobs and give nothing to students who are promised a public college education is the way to go. Good riddance to Amazon and thank the gods for Senator Gianaris.
6
NYC officials are doing their jobs. Amazon would get over $4 Billion in tax breaks over the next decade.
Despite this New York State officials are eager to see Amazon come in, because as they rightly believe it won't cost the State anything. Nada or zilch, as Cuomo said.
What they fail to mention is that the costs will be shouldered by NYC. The extra jobs mean extra people, which in turn puts even more pressure on the Subway system.
As bad as the 7 line is now--it's already over capacity--it will become even worse. Meanwhile the State holds the purse strings for the subway, and they have been stingy.
This, in addition to increases in school funding. Increase in local traffic. Increases in policing...
It's a sweetheart deal for the State only.
4
If I heard correctly, Amazon has about 10 years to bring the 25,000 jobs to NYC. There's real no guarantee they will. What people don't understand is this isn't about the jobs. Jobs are great. It's about the back-room deals, the hyper-gentrification, the failing infrastructure. LIC is one of the most overdeveloped neighborhoods in the city. Amazon should take their deal to another area or even to NJ. NJ is close enough proximity to NYC, no shortage of talent.
43
An existing phenomenon in Seattle which I have heard of. The positions are held by foreigners. In the indenture, Amazon does not promise a local employment. There cannot be such a restriction. The brokers or the reality are thrilled as more businesses will be flowing into their pockets. Anyone can rent or buy premises. The local people are evicted to the outskirts. Amazon deal is full of snares. I do not appreciate such attitude in business. It is simply too immoral.
9
@Anon: I agree with you. And don't forget that Amazon also "needs" its own HELICOPTER pad on site, b/c heaven forbid their execs would have to deal with the reality of the congestion Amazon will create at ground level.
11
@Brigitte Exactly. The only people who are truly happy about this deal are the people who will profit- the politicians, real estate developers, etc. There aren't many local residents who would qualify for the corporate or programming jobs. Amazon promised 30 jobs to the local Queensbridge residents in a call center- 30 jobs out of the alleged 25,000.
15
How is it that every other city in this country realizes the overall economic benefits of having an employer of this size move in, yet this city finds something to complain about? Every big firm in every city, including NYC, gets tax breaks/incentives to move. Amazon isn't an evil empire; it' just a large successful business. Can you find things to criticize about Amazon? Sure!
56
@Full Name
The real question is why Amazon needs / got $3 BILLION in tax-breaks and incentives.
Sure, new business is good. And sure, most developers get *some* incentives to relocate to NYC and build facilities.
But why the windfall deal for Amazon?
And why did Cuomo (as usual) negotiate the deal largely himself and then try to ram it thorough as a fait accompli? (Political ambition, to prime a 2020 run for president? Pure ego?)
20
@Full Name
"... yet this city finds something to complain about?"
Well, you're writing your question in the right venue, The New York Times (hint, hint.)
2
@Full Name No firm should ask for or get welfare from taxpayers.
11
Amazon executives keep saying that they only want to go "where they are wanted", and yet they snubbed all the places that would have welcomed them with open arms and bottomless wallets, to come to NYC, where they really are NOT needed and obviously not universally wanted either. Why can't they go to Cleveland, or Detroit, or some place where they actually WOULD be needed?
56
Because the tech workers they employ don’t want to go to Cleveland or Detroit.
5
I have a feeling the highly-paid tech workers would go pretty much wherever Amazon wanted them to.
3
I do not understand why very rich and successful corporations need such huge tax breaks and concessions. It might make sense to give concessions to charitable organizations or to struggling companies doing essential services. (Like affordable healthcare)
It should be noted, that many of these big companies do not fully comply with the agreements that they make.
Amazon already gets lots of our money. We do not need to give our tax money to Amazon.
88
@Richard Fried
Amazon doesn’t NEED a tax break. But the reason they will get one is the same reason Lebron gets a $154 million contract. If NYC doesn’t pay, another city will, and Amazon will go elsewhere. The hard part is determining how much value Amazon will bring to the table and making an equitable offer.
11
@Tyler
Yep, America has ALWAYS been the "poster child" for "corporate welfare" mainly because of the corruption created by campaign finance "laws" that create a scenario where politicians are bound to corporations whom are ultimately looking for "payback" for those campaign donations to the politicians making the decisions. Amazon is no exception.
This is just another case where it is pretty easy for the politicians to spend "other peoples money" and then they along with the corporate entity attempt to convince the taxpayer that it was ALL to their benefit.
The problem is, history has continually confirmed, these taxpayer handouts, no matter how large, almost never come with guarantees, only promises.
13
@Tyler: Amazon doesn't need and DOESN'T DESERVE a tax break of any kind. Let them go where someone else's tax base will pay them to be there.
NYC is doing just fine & does NOT need Amazon. We certainly don't need to pay them to be here!
15
I’m glad there is finally pushback against this “deal.” Why in the world should the city pay Bezos, the richest man in the world 3 billion dollars to move here? Apparently this city has what he wanted for his next headquarters. So why did he need this bribe?
Let’s spend the money on improving the infrastructure and the subway, and invest the money in CUNY. That will keep educated workers here or attract new ones, along with companies that value what the city offers and will come here without being bribed to do so.
88
@Miriam It's a tax BREAK for Amazon, not a tax PAYMENT to Amazon (or Bezos). Big difference. It's absurd to characterize this as "paying Bezos $3 Billion to move here".
Further, the thought that "let's spend the money on..." What money? Again, there is no money. Taxpayers aren't paying Amazon anything in this deal.
The economic benefit math of the $3 Billion tax break is simple: Amazon will bring 25,000-40,000 good paying jobs. If it's 30,000 jobs paying $100,000 each, that's $3 Billion, a chunk of which will be spent by those workers right here in this city. And that's just one year.
13
@Miriam Amazon needs to pay its fair share, but instead bribes local politicians to get billions from taxpayers who pick and choose winning companies. Set a fair playing field where every business has the same chance to set up shop, succeed on their own merits, or fall. No welfare to Bezos. Fix NYC's mass transit system and focus on affordable housing.
7
@Full Name
In essence it IS a payment. It is a financial incentive that would leave more money in Bezo's hands than he otherwise would have. So Miriam is merely short-handing it.
And yes, in the same way, she is pointing out that selling out the tax base down the river ultimately DOES impact the city's ability to invest in infrastructure. Taxes and taxation must be non-preferential. Otherwise it is a disaster in the making, pitting one group against another. Should Walmart next come with their begging cup out to the city asking for their deal?? And how would you say "no"? It's like you're on a bus with a bunch of kids and you stand up and loudly say: "I've got a cookie for Billy!! Because I like Billy!! And Billy's parent's don't have to pay any school taxes!! So all you other kids, YOUR parents are going to have to make up the difference!!".
6
New York has too many millionaires already. We don't need any more people who make a lot of money.
5
Thank heavens the Assembly appears to be 100% wise to the games Cuomo has played for 12 years. Divide & conquer is a great mantra for a dictator - wait, that's probably what he is and/or thinks he is - but it spits in the eyes of however many million NY citizens he purports to represent.
It gives him the same dilemma Trump has - stick to a very tired, sick formula - reject the nominee and/or start bullying & bribing which ever members have weak spines - we may have some new faces, but even if they haven't yet been corrupted (beyond redemption), it is SO EASY to say that "my constituents got something great" and all I had to do was vote Andy's way on something most of my constituents barely understand.... And I can always say that I just wanted NY to get those fantastic jobs!
Amazon so took Bill and Andy to the cleaners that you have to wonder what promises (future campaign contributions ?) each of them begged for.
It always was the case that the "contest" was as rigged as anything Trump ever sponsored, so if they really want to come to NYC, now's a great time to go "user-friendly!"
They'll come out so far ahead financially - even if they turn the deal from a joke to something mostly equitable - that it doesn't jeopardize the deal (and I have mixed feeling that there's ANY real benefit to NYC), and Jeff will get the good feeling and good press that comes with BUILDING something for a change - not destroying 100s more small businesses in the city!
1
Sorry to say but the supposedly high tech jobs are not going to come from low income housing aka Ravenswood and Astoria NYCHA. Anyone who is high tech and has a decent salary is above the income limits from the "projects".
Like Apple and Google.... .Amazon probably uses contractors instead of full time employees who get no benefits and work on yearly contracts.
Amazon should go to Long Island to the old Grumman HQ in Bethpage.. rem Grumman?. they had 25000 employees and sent us to the moon.
4
Resistance to Amazon is quite frankly, short-sighted and ridiculous. Amazon will bring in 100s of high paying jobs, and guess what-those employees will pay a whole lot of taxes on their salaries. And guess what, it's those taxes that pay for schools, sanitation, and other services that NYC provides.
Chase Amazon away at your own peril NYC.
15
Regardless of whether you are for or against the Amazon deal - Cuomo and de Blasio's lack of transparency and complete disregard for New Yorker's and their input is simply not right!
To propose a deal, granting billions of dollars in breaks along with major infrastructure changes, without consulting the people and neighborhoods which will be affected is the first lesson in Gentrification 101 and the answer to the homework question - How Do We Continue to Perpetuate Systematic Poverty?
4
@DWF It's just like how DeBlasio and his administration forces rezonings on neighborhoods without following any of the rules, including the community, etc. It's disgusting.
2
I thought taxes were supposed to pay for society's necessities and safety. Like roads, transportation, schools, fire, and police. Not a huge multi-billion dollar company 'invitation' to create 40 - 50k jobs. Wonder if these will be permanent and growing or short term jobs for many. And today he claims that the state has a revenue shortfall because of Salt?! People are leaving NY, but they have been leaving for years. Not because of Salt, but because they are over taxed and under serviced. At least that was my experience when I left. But shame on the state for collecting taxes and then wasting it.
4
So New York looked prosperity in the eye... and blinked.
Amazon, you are welcome here in FL. We won't have to carve out a special deal. The low taxes, available land, and eager (non-union) workforce you desire are already in place -- and waves of highly educated, overtaxed overachievers from NY and NJ are moving here daily.
5
It should be illegal for any politician to cut a deal with any corporation regarding special tax treatment. In effect that is shifting burdens from one group to another. There should be an absolute firewall between corporations and government regarding this. In fact, how IS it at all legal? Can someone explain how politicians have this power, legitimately? Could they, say, give your neighbor a real estate tax break because they like them more than you? Would that be OK?
As it stands now, corporations understand that they have great power pitting one state/city/locale against others and a race to the bottom.
6
So why not open the business site in Detroit? The University of Michigan in nearby Ann Arbor is well situated to provide high-tech capable sales/executives/corporate lawyers from its highly-ranked business and law schools. Michigan State in Lansing has an excellent engineering school. Detroit is nearly as good a location as Chicago as far as being centrally located within the nation’s population centers, along with being a gateway to Canada’s densely-populated Ontario province. And the Detroit metropolitan area could truly benefit from Amazon having an eastern headquarters there unlike NYC which doesn’t really need it.
Yes the winters are cold and cloudy. But the cost-of-living in the metro area as a whole is 30-40 percent less than NYC. And, if you’re a sports fan, Detroit is an ideal city as far as professional sports is concerned. The advantages of relocating to heart the nation’s “Rust Belt” are many!
6
Sen. Gianaris is acting for his constituents in opposing the Amazon deal.
Amazon is a monopoly - it’s business model is to be so large that it has the ability to undercut prices to the point that smaller businesses cannot compete, therefore going out of business, which then gives Amazon control- Amazon does not have a track record of taking good care of it’s employees! What do people think will suddenly be different? This behemoth pays its top person astronomically while NOT valuing the livelihoods of those workers. Amazon controls buying and selling markets so much that it has its own internal judicial system that could cause people to go bankrupt if they get framed by a rival who posts fake five star reviews on the competitions page which can get the competition banned by Amazon from using their platform unless they make an appeal to Amazon , which can take weeks. Monopolies are illegal for a reason, and Governor Cuomo is drunknon some special deal Koolaide and wants to put that hideous Amazon smile on our city. Amazon has been desperately sending out flyers in the mail in my neighborhood to tell of how they are going to partner with schools so that kids will have access to their online curriculum to become coders. Trying desperately to put some spin on why they will be good for our neighborhood. Hey Amazon, how about don’t take the billions in tax benefits that should be going to our school systems in the first place!
11
Ouf, who cares ?
More jobs for Crystal City... in Arlington, Virginia.
3
NYC, you have to take your half of this thing. Otherwise, the whole thing may come to DC. That would be way too much. Please just accept your share -- it's only half of a half of a headquarters.
2
Good Idea New York...drench the worlds most profitable corporation with millions of dollars of government subsidies so that it can create thousands of crappy, low paying jobs in a city that already cannot provide affordable housing to low income workers.
7
@lilrabbit You realize these will generally be high paid technology jobs right? You know, the kind of jobs that generate high taxes to FUND affordable housing?
2
Land use is the prerogative of the locality where the land exists, and such power over how the land is used comes from the retention of property taxes by the locality. Property taxes (and utilities) are how localities make their money. Therefore, when localities want to control something, they go to the restrictions and permissions that land use can affect. And it is explicitly because of this fact that the State of New York sought to strip the locality of Queens from having any say in the land Amazon wants to use.
I have considerable experience witnessing and fighting the corruption of how local San Diego politicians and developers used land to the latter's financial benefit at the expense of the community: they abused California Redevelopment Law by manipulating official redevelopment planning documents by arbitrarily increasing building heights based on spurious claims of growth that today are shown to have been driven by subterfuge. In 2004 I and others accused them of this chicanery and today the facts bear out this claim. At the time, I made my statements as a publicly elected member of a state mandated committee required to provide oversight to such redevelopment project areas.
If Queens was like San Diego, then Amazon would not have asked Governor Cuomo to step in and forcibly take the power of land use away from the locality of Queens because the preferential treatment Amazon demands over the interests of the local community would have been gleefully forthcoming.
5
Why would we want a world class company that is going to provide tens of thousands of jobs and help make NYC a world class tech city?
Attracting highly-educated, motivated, young people is never good for a city. And diversifying your local economy is always a mistake. Glad we've found a political hack to put an end to it.
10
All those things pale in comparison to the fact that his constituents are threatened by prosperity and the potential pressure on housing. Never mind that rent stabilization laws basically give tenants property rights.
6
@Sparky Google and other tech/media companies are expanding within the City, without the same subsidies and work-arounds that Amazon will be receiving. The reason why Amazon wants to come here over other less expensive locations is because we have an abundance of tech talent, not the other way around.
3
Maybe the loss of Amazon would remind voters which party actually supports investment, development and modernization and who are the real "regressives".
6
Sen. Gianaris is my representative, and I think he's acting for his constituents in opposing the Amazon deal.
It's not as though LIC was a languishing area with abandoned buildings and no businesses. It's been steadily growing (and pushing out older and poorer residents) since Citibank built the "Death Star." (So called because at the time it was the only skyscraper in Long Island City.
Since then, the area is packed with high-priced rentals and the median income has soared, which has an effect on making the mandatory middle- and low-income housing out of reach of people who have lived in the area for years.
I'm in the next neighborhood over: Astoria. The more highly-paid employees Amazon imports (and they will be transferring in from other offices), the more there will be spillover into my neighborhood (including the Astoria Houses.)
The infrastructure in western Queens is already strained to the breaking point. There's no real plan to improve or add to any local subways; the proposed light rail line from Brooklyn to Queens is years away (if it's built at all).
There truly are neighborhoods in NYC that could offer ground-up opportunities and empty buildings to be converted or razed. But Amazon wants something close to Manhattan, with a helipad (!) and pays only lip service to the "good neighbor" concept. Also: $3 billion in tax breaks.
13
Re empty buildings: are you aware that the Citi building is emptying right now and that the first phase of Amazon’s plan is to move in there?
Two thoughts: 1 Think of that building empty and it’s impact on the community. 2 With all due respect Astoria is in fact geographically close to LIC but by NYC standards far away.
3
@GC I doubt the Citi building would sit empty for very long. How do you feel about all of the empty storefronts throughout the city? Most people say they're empty because of Amazon.
3
The Citi building is poorly located and basically an antique with regard to systems, floor plans, elevators. No one is going there soon.
With regard to empty storefronts, I’m indifferent. Those merchants stopped offering a compelling reason for the community to patronize them. They are not competing on the basis of style or price. And their landlords for one reason or another are not willing to make concessions.
1
Bezos played elected officials very well. New York City is the capital of capital in the world and Bezos always intended to establish a major center there. Cities have been shifting the burdens resulting from new businesses to other tax payers for centuries, now. It never really is a fair trade but it always benefits the right people. But going back on the agreement will bring out the cleverness in Bezos and may result in further concessions.
That said, Amazon has become a destructively huge corporation that is increasingly predatory towards all who deal with it. It’s likely to cause it’s own diminishment as people walk away from it.
4
I don’t understand why Amazon would want to set up shop in a crazily crowded expensive city with massive transportation problems and a decreasing quality of life. Take your money and rebuild Detroit, or make your own new city. A very vain and silly decision on Amazon’s part.
9
@Qui, Mr. Bezos has a pied a terre in New York and, I understand, he has a kid who lives in New York. Now he'll have Queens and a personal helipad. The whole notion of a contest between cities was a sham. As for the governor and the mayor, like all big time politicos, they fall in love with the billionaires.
3
I really don't get this deal. NYC, London, Paris Rome,Athens. Big companies should be paying us for the privilege of using our very Precious land. They should be bribing us the workers and residents of these Great Big Name Cities not expecting us to bribe them. If you can't afford NYC try Cleveland or Indianapolis.
7
Each taxpayer in NYC should be asked to write a check until they reach $3 billion dollars, then see how that works out.
2
If tax breaks become the standard to create jobs in a City like New York what does it take to create jobs somewhere else - cash?? This is crazy Amazon should contribute their fair share. Well educated people do not grow on trees.
8
@Daniel Korb
The question the pols never answer is why wouldn't the money available for tax breaks simply be spread out among the existing businesses? They are already established and viable. Moreover, if you care of employment, targeting small businesses makes more sense. They tend to be more labor intensive and have larger workforces relative to their size.
1
These are the same complainers who were against building the Barclays Center in Brooklyn. How did that work out? Now they go every week with their kids.
7
This is going to be fun. As a non-resident of NYC, I am only a viewer. But the spectacle of a greedy, gushing-with-dough corporation plopping itself in the middle of the Lefter-than-Left Big Apple is something I don't want to miss. And this, I predict, is only Episode One. CBS should've put this on Sunday night, not that boring Super Bowl.
6
Hey New York Times, don't you think the citizens of this state deserve to know the details of these Amazon negotiations? I've seen nothing on the subject. Who was at the table? My guess, Michael Bloomberg and a host of real estate goniffs. How long were they actually in progress? My guess, much longer than you'd imagine. What was promised by both sides? There, your guess is as good as mine.
Cuomo and de Blasio are just two hired hands in this deal, which stinks to high heaven. One thing that fuels my skepticism is that it finally explains be Blasio's seemingly boneheaded streetcar to nowhere. With Amazon in Queens it does make sense, from their perspective, to have a way to get from Brooklyn's new Gold Coast, to LIC along the waterfront. So, you can add the multi-billion dollar price of that gift to the rest of the subsidy.
4
3 Billion Dollar incentive for 25,000 jobs =$120,000.00 per Employee ...
5
With NY’s income and property taxes, they should break even in about 18 months.
2
I hope NYC blocks it. NYC loss is another city's gain.
Even DeBlasio knows having Amazon move into LIC is a good idea.
Bloomberg knows it is a good idea.
Cuomo is still under the deluded impression, he's going to be President one day.
AOC is going to bring the 70s back to NYC. Pull-out the Disco Ball. AOC is in charge. She is the best thing that has happened to the Republican party since Jimmy Carter.
The Democrats are running like it's 1972 again. Socialism is hip again or so the Democrats think. Clear choices in 2020.
7
@P&L Yup! That is why this Queens resident will be voting a straight Republican ticket for all state and local offices in 2020 and 2021.
1
@B They are certainly sending us that way, making it really easy for the Republicans.
1
Amazon in LIC is going to gentrify the neighborhood and the poor in the public housing there will not be able to afford the upscale shops that will be opening
2
This story does not seem to detail why Gianaris opposes this plan, besides a vague mention of incentives. This is unfair to Gianaris and to anyone trying to form an educated opinion of this political maneuvering.
5
Thank you, Mr. Gianaris. Amazon doesn't fit with Queens values. If they won't embrace unions and ditch ICE, they don't belong here.
5
Difficult to believe decision in the first place,you would think the employees would mutiny ,if they could.The absolute highest cost of living by multitudes of any city. The most brutal gridlock traffic and NY'r s have a crusty reputation. Maybe Bezos wants his socialist empire more Mao ,than Tao. The campus would be a virtual prison compared to western states or VA or Pennsylvania where nature always beckons for long weekends away from the cash inducing keyboard screens.
2
To senator Michael Gianaris. Remember kind of like Trump taking responsibility for shutting down the government, if you break it, you own it.
4
We know what Mr. Gianaris is against. What is he for? What is his preference for the area and why hasn't he proposed his vision before?
3
I'm a little confused. Didn't NYC compete to lure Amazon to site there?
1
@David if you define compete as who gives the biggest tax breaks then you are right
6
We need to create a new crime: using public money to lure businesses. This is crabs in a barrel, loser behavior, less than a zero sum game.
2
@Joseph M
The federal government should be indifferent to where a company winds up w/in the US, and could just tax the tax break at some punitive rate to stop this nonsense.
Biting the hand that feeds you? Gee, it's almost as though once you start attacking business and the free market, you're going to end up with some people who go overboard! Who would've predicted that?
3
The state senate is not content with upstate NY being a rusted, burnt-out backwater. They clearly want NYC to return to this status, too. As such they indulge in a suicidal impulse to turn away cutting edge, 21st century jobs. They’ll go elsewhere, and we’ll get the socialist utopia the state Democratic Party yearns for.
5
Letting them in will make New York into San Francisco. The people know this. You’d have to have an eight-figure net worth or a double-digit IQ to think it’d benefit the city. Amazon is a tax leech, a bad employer, and the worst neighbor you can have.
10
Kill it! Amazon would have chosen New York City without the corporate bribes. For Amazon needs the Big Apple more than we need Amazon.
And- make Bezos chip in for upgrades to infrastructure that it deems critical. New York City is the queen of the world. Don’t pimp her out.
13
@Jim Neal Why would you assume Amazon needs NYC? Amazon can operate anywhere. Even with lots of incentives, New York City is a bad option. It is a terribly run city. On any given day you can expect a quarter of the workforce to be late due to shoddy metro service. The water and electric infrastructure is 100 years old. Amazon money may have helped revitalize the city, but the lefties prefer decay and rot. So, let them have it. NJ or PA would be much better options for a foward looking company than a city run by socialists.
The sad fact has remained for decades now that America has been the "poster child" for corporate welfare and this so-called Amazon "deal" is just another example whereby the power of large business and its influence on government decisions demands and ultimately receives what they want, of course, ALWAYS at taxpayers expense, funds that really should be directed towards much more important endeavors. This is just another case of not learning from history.
There are countless examples of such handouts over the years have come, sadly, without much in the way of guarantees(only promises) ultimately resulting in he scenario where, when business is in a downturn, the business receiving the funds looks elsewhere for deals, ultimately leaving the existing community on the hook for the lost jobs and reduced tax intake.
The irony to all of this is, in the meantime, Toronto(in top twenty, no tax handouts in bid, not picked) is now the FOURTH largest IT center in NA and the fastest growing of all(including Silicon Valley), (of course, with help from Trump's immigration policies) and since Amazon would have sucked away a considerable amount of the entrepreneurial talent, not securing the Amazon 2nd headquarters, to many, with a sigh of relief, was a blessing in disguise. 250, 000 NOW employed(and growing)and Amazon is "promising" 50,000 jobs over 10-20 years?
Be careful what you wish for NY because history is not on your side.
3
@Deus its a model that has worked for the NFL
Wait a minute!!
Do all the people damning the amazon deal really understand what’s going on?
The company is getting a tax break, not a subsidy or a payment from taxpayers. If Amazon doesn’t come there will be no earnings, so no tax, so no place for a tax break. If Amazon doesn’t come, we get nothing; zip. If it comes it gets a very nice break in not paying taxes on the first $3billion owed. But all the high paid employees will pay taxes from day one & once the company runs thru the tax breaks, it will pay taxes just like everyone else.
I hate the game of “who can offer the best deal to fat companies such as Amazon”. But let’s at least understand that it is in long term benefit to the city & its residents that this go ahead.
13
Very smart Queens! Keep them out. You all can see where I'm from. No city should accept Bezos's ridiculous terms for an opportunity to radically change the culture of their town. What Amazon has done to Seattle is to turn it into a town for the rich only without any willingness to truly help the homeless, low and middle class people he has displaced. Bezos treats his own lower wage workers poorly (the push for productivity is so radical that workers poop in bags to avoid leaving their station!) and has done next to nothing, particularly given his enormous wealth, to alleviate the social problems of the city where he earned it.
4
@yaela ettlinger he treats his high wage employees just as poorly ..he hires people out of college gives them a generous bonus that binds them for years or they will be forced to repay the bonus if they choose to leave..so between repaying student loans and the amazon bonus they are screwed if they leave..therefor they must put up with any crap amazon gives them and they put up with a lot
Amazon why do you need to make New York and Washington more of a crowded nightmare. There are hundreds of places that need jobs and have space for growth .
3
Phase one calls for Amazon to move into the rapidly emptying Citi building. We will therefore see real fast what happens if they in fact choose not to come. The surrounding small businesses will start choking.
That said, I doubt the community will be worried. What motivates them is their sinecure of a stabilized apartment - not jobs and prosperity.
Speaking of community - LIC changed about 20 years ago with the arrival of the first high rise on the East River. Before that it was almost entirely industrial. This idea of a working class community being mowed down by Amazon is a lie.
6
NY has a small but very vocal minority of people threatened by prosperity. They cherish their rent stabilized apartments, municipal pensions and the secure life that asks nothing in return. No thought as to how those pensions are financed or how little their landlords contribute to the municipal budget.
And many of them are on here repeating the lie that funds are being paid to Amazon that could be better used elsewhere. Nothing is being paid to Amazon - it’s forgiveness of a portion of future taxes due. Taxes which will never be collected anyway if they don’t come here.
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@GC You sound very ill-informed. You don't know anything about the entirety of the population in LIC, but it's nice that you claim to.
4
35 thousand minimum wage jobs offered by an anti-union employer, massive state subsidies and massive expenditure on infrastructure - what's not to like ? The mere fact that Amazon is amazed that Queens isn't welcoming them with open arms says it all.
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@Pontefractious: Minimum wage?
Yes let's have Amazon look else where and at the same time other possible corporations considering coming to New York will say fugetaboutit. Senator will have his hand out for more taxes to pay for those essential programs needed in his district where does he go. Oh the middle class already here the poor do not pay taxes they don't have it to tax!
5
@James mcCowan companies looking for a 3 billion subsidy should look elsewhere ,sounds about right to me
This deal may be good for NYC, or it may not be. Or it may be a little of both
How about a detailed report from the Times on all the aspects and the pros and cons?
I'd like to see a comprehensive article -- complete with a spreadsheet-like comparison of costs and benefits, both in terms of dollars and less quantifiable aspects (congestion, dislocation of people/businesses now in the location, context about the effect of similar deals in other cities, such as e.g. Seattle.
Is this good for NYC, overall, or not?
Was it realty necessary for NYC / NYS to dole out $3 BILLION in tax-breaks and incentives to make this deal? (Can we get info comparing this deal with those made by other cities negotiating with Amazon, or other big companies lately?)
As a secondary inquiry, how about a detailed report on the politics behind the decision?
Exactly what did Cuomo and co., to in making this decision? Who was consulted (or not)? Why does it seem that this deal made mostly by Cuomo via backroom meetings (again!)? Is that true? How does that compare with other large decisions, and deals, made by other NYC governors?
4
@NYer And how about a third enquiry about what people want for their neighborhood ? Because the locals must have a say on what gets foisted on them. The economics and politics are important, but absent an overwhelming state or national need for the campus to be located as proposed, the people should have the final say.
5
@NYer
I think we'll eventually discover this deal was in the works for years, long before Amazon even started it's "exploratory" campaign.
Step 1: Bloomberg rezones the entire East River waterfront in Brooklyn and Queens, allowing his developer cronies to create an unbroken wall of luxury towers extending through LIC.
Step 2: "Bold visionary" de Blasio inexplicably proposes a streetcar to nowhere that would follow the line of all this new development, although there was apparently no reason anyone would need or want to go from a glass tower in Dumbo to a glass tower in LIC. The project languished and even bringing Chuck Schumer's daughter on board as Executive Director hasn't revived it. De Balsio could never state the real reason for the line.
Step 3: The pieces all come together. Bloomberg, his coterie of real estate goniffs and Bezos come to an understanding. They inform their toadies de Blasio and Cuomo of the fact. Watch now as de Blasio resurrects his streetcar because it will serve Amazon, its intent all along. As I said, this was all in the works long before anyone suspected.
2
I am still puzzled Amazon choosing NYC. I would have expected that once DC was chosen, it would have fully committed to this area.
My hunch is it has something to do with further disrupting the mainstream publishing industry, which seems stuck in the early 20th century.
Looking at this as a strategic game, Amazon wouldn't be harmed if NYC fell through. DC is more critical to its long-term strategic goals. So does NYC need Amazon?
6
@Joe Schmoe washington does not have a population with the skills they need
@domenicfeeney
LOL. That's one of the only thing the people in DC can do.
Amazon should set up shop in New Jersey. New York City doesn't need it. It would only add to the horrible congestion of people and traffic. NY is already inundated with hundreds of thousands Jerseyites coming in every day to work, some driving in their cars as public transportation is functioning beyond capacity. New Jersey needs Amazon.
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@an observer Newark bid for the project - they really want it.
4
Amazon is the piece that NYC needs to cement itself for the 21st century. It already has a huge and growing google campus. Another one of the big tech companies will keep NYC at the top of one of the most important industries in the world. I saw someone complain about the "Character" of the neighborhood. 20 years ago it was dangerous to walk around during the day nevermind at night. This is a small price to pay to ensure NYC stays at the top of a leading industry. How long can NYC hold onto finance as its main growth engine? Isn't it better to be diversified.
5
@Chris The city has more than just finance. Also, I lived in that neighborhood 20 years ago. It wasn't that bad. I was hardly worried about walking around during any time of the day. What does worry me, as a lifelong NYer, is the growing inequality and the crime that follows.
2
Other than considering if the $3 billion to Amazon will be in vain, I would use the funding for the bail system. This approach proves to be beneficial to the society and palliates the contention among the policy makers. Judges’ decision for defendants more or less include bail for a specified period with various amount, be jailed until the trials or until evidence emerges or be granted freedom until the trials as no prior criminal record or with credible witnesses who can testify for the defendants. The third option is unlikely, at least for now. For those who are in the last group, a GPS clasp can be applied. The purpose always surrounds if they can be demonstrated and for the social safety. However the system requires a vast amount of financial supports.
It starts to wonder why Amazon has to be adamant about New York City, especially with the cauldron in opposition and the impediments. NYC is an ideal conduit in terms of global navigation. Many global corporates have their American headquarters in NYC. In considering the internet technology nowadays, it does not have to be exactly in NYC for communication or development. So, what is the nonpareil information? The city has the up and the down sides. I adore the city, the atmosphere and the people. The down side is the torts, like trolls or breach might be hard to trace as the network is too perplexing. Mississippi has the lands and needs the turbine to get going. Why shouldn’t Amazon build the infrastructure there?
@Brigitte I suspect the answer to your question is that with no offense intended to that noble state, Amazon would find it difficult to get the staff they need to re-locate to Mississippi.
@Brigitte If AOC gets her way those companies with NYC headquarters are going to be pulling out of NYC as if it is 1974.
NYC's loss is a potential gain for Mississippi. Send your dollars to AOC; if you live outside NYC.
1
I assume you have an unfaltering faith in the mendacious promise of local employment. Definitely Amazon is not held liable for local employment. Amazon is infamous in importing docile labours from overseas. In terms of business and quality, it can’t discriminate or involve nepotism. The selling points of its are nothing but a mirage. Its Human Resources will not be fuzzed by who shall be recruited.
The predicate is Amazon can hire people regardless of geographical location. Therefore, we can rule out that it cannot easily relocate the labour force or recruitment. Logically Amazon should consider a futuristic project in a less developed state with poverty. This is the genuine propulsion in disseminating the business potential and for further external opportunities.
1
The WSJ is reporting over a $2B shortfall (so far) in NY State Taxes in 2019. Seems NY needs the money. Why are we giving so much away to these corporations? Makes zero sense.
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I just called Cuomo's office and urged him to accept Gianaris' nomination. I live in Queens and am extremely worried about the negative impact will have on my community. My neighborhood is extremely diverse, and I worry that working-class people of color will be pushed out. They are a vital part of the vibrant fabric of NYC! We don't need Amazon.
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@Sarah Great, I've called Cuomo's office to say that he should not accept Gianaris' nomination. NYC needs jobs and to diversify its economy and tax base. The city is always evolving, and that's what makes it great. It's puzzling to see "progressives" allied against progress...
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@B Progress can take place in different directsions, not always good ones. The skill lies in identifying the good ones. True progressives learn to discriminate. Their critics do not.
2
"Mr. Gianaris, like several local elected leaders now opposing the deal, signed a letter initially supporting city and state efforts to lure the company to New York City."
It seems to me that most of these grand-standing politicians are bluffing about their opposition. They are jumping on the opportunity to publicize themselves and appear to their constituents as fighting for the little guy. They will be loud, but they won't do anything to actually kill it. I think the reality is that they privately support this thing and would be devastated and embarrassed if Amazon pulled out of this venture and agreed to a new deal in Dallas or wherever.
4
@mpound: I think you are 100% wrong about this.
A true Democrat would welcome the new opportunity and ensure the established residents were supported. I would love to see a block of small business grants set aside for people who can prove a minimum of 5 years Queens residency and tax returns in the middle brackets. Or open up a few rounds of truly affordable municipal bonds for mid class NYC residents.
4
Amazon shareholders will breathe a sigh of relief, that their company and employees won't in the future (once the incentives expire) be milked like tax cows to pay for NYC's decaying infrastructure and armies of public servants. Other tech companies will take the hint, and stay away. Other states, with vastly lower tax burdens, and lower labor costs, will be pleased to welcome the employers of the future. NYC can focus on becoming the next Detroit, as its tax base disappears. With the SALT deduction largely gone, there is little reason for high earners to remain.
7
@Richard Except that this is New York City and absolute no one is leaving for Cleveland because of a tax rate. And if they do the city is far better off without them. BTW, DeBlasio's New York has a humongous budget surplus. Your numbers are totally wrong and you sound like you'd be better off in the burbs. Bye-bye.
1
Yes, we see all those hedge fund and real estate moguls fleeing the city. That's why they keep buying up those ridiculous midtown penthouses.
Give me a break. The ultra-rich are going to be the only ones left in this burg. And if this deal goes through, Queens, the last gasp of semi-affordable housing for all the folks who serve the big bank account types and their trust babies will become just as overpriced.
2
The local officials only have other people’s money to spend because of businesses.
Everyone already knows this, but we should step back and remind ourselves that to increase revenue governments can tax everybody at a higher rate or private economic activity can grow.
This anti-business posture is illogical and harmful to the City.
And the idea that knowledge workers making $150k are going to overly burden public services is laughable. But if we are going to start regulating who is allowed to live in the City, how about we rank residents by the following “public burden” factors and see how Amazon employees shake out compared to other residents:
Utilize government services such as free public hospitals, schools, transit and social services
Receive government transfer payments (welfare)
Enjoy government housing subsidies or housing regulations like rent control
Interact with the police and the criminal justice system
Etc.
And then let’s rank residents by individual and business (payroll) taxes generated.
Are we sure these Amazon employees will come out on the bottom of this cost-benefit ranking and should get booted off the island?
Because I’m thinking they will likely be net payers (rather than takers) into the tax base. Maybe even some of the largest net contributors (a 28 year old making $150k is probably paying for a few free school lunches).
13
With family in NYC and area, I am familiar with the issues that New Yorkers deal with. I love NYC and the friendliness of everyone that I encounter during my visits. One background to this controversy is that New Yorkers appear to be hostile to corporations (evil), which reflects their orientation to unions (the good guys). And so companies that bring jobs are rejected unless they are the right kind of jobs. Most of the country (such as Augusta) would be grateful if these companies would join us. Amazon should move on and go where they are wanted.
5
@Bill
There are two main issues
the impacts of the new higher earning jobs on the immediate community and the displacement it might cause
and
the huge tax breaks the company is getting
a lot of "pro business" people are raising their eyebrows at the second issue, even while generally welcoming a company such as Amazon.
7
@Bill Take Amazon, take it, take it, PLEASE! Thanks.
1
Amazon simply needs to say “Sorry New York. I do not like where this relationship is going. It is me, not you. Good luck in future relationships.” Then go to Virginia, Chicago or whatever other city was next on the list. Dealing with loud, obnoxious New Yorkers could be just not worth it. While NYC may have been optimum per the algorithm, I suspect the differential was not much.
3
funny you didn't say Dallas.
2
@Michael Blazin good riddance
Amazon is as welcome here as Google and other tech companies who DIDN’T get enormous tax bribes.
5
@Michael Blazin The most obnoxious people I see in my city are the tourists who walk four abreast on sidewalks, stop anywhere to talk selfies, and expect that everyone should just stop what we’re doing to accommodate them. I was once at an outsdoor concert and asked some people who who wouldn’t shut up to please stop talking and was told, “what do you expect from New Yorkers.”
New Yorkers can be very kind, thoughtful people, butI suspect if you venture around here, expecting everyone to be loud and obnoxious you will be treated accordingly.
3
TheDFW Metroplex and Austin were on the short list for Amazon. If New York tossed you the "Not Welcome" Mat you can always come to Texas - we have a large pool of tech talent here and would welcome the jobs and opportunities Amazon would give the Lone Star State!
5
@PadmeSud Texas, not until it turns blue. Educated liberals may tolerate Austin, but the rest of the Ted Cruz state can't retain talent Amazon needs.
1
We have lots of Amazon fulfillment centers and data centers plus Austin got the big Apple campus. We will just suffer on.
Get them in the door. Let them buy and build buildings and pour money into infrastructure. Then tax them and work to unionize once they are here. Much harder to pack up once they are already enmeshed in the community, and New York City is big enough to both absorb and influence Amazon once they're physically in place.
9
@Peter: I disagree, b/c Amazon, as a corporation, is so large that it's unrealistic to think we could effectively pressure them into unionizing just from NYC.
They plan to come in as the 800-pound gorilla, and we don't need that.
2
Just forget about NYC and Queens, Amazon.
Double your plans for Virginia - there are plenty of talented people who will pick up and move there instead of moving to Queens with the high cost of living and lousy transportation.
Chalk it up to history.
10
@Mimi
I agree. The DC area already has the talent pool to fully staff Amazon in short order.
Not at all true for NYC, and it would be a tougher sell to get the right workers to want to move there. (I say this as one of those workers who is actively being headhunted by Amazon--moving to NYC would be out of the question).
3
@Mimi I agree AMZN should double up in Virginia, but the NYC transportation system is lousy so why give 3 billion to Amazon? Better use the welfare they give to Amazon to fix their infrastructure instead, right???
Yes, Mimi. That may be why Amazon went fifty-fifty in the first place. Hedging their bets--double or nothing.
Amazon wants NYC because of the region’s deep pool of readily-available talent. That talent will be there with or without the economic incentives. That speaks against the deal, but you certainly can’t blame Amazon for negotiating incentives when it’s SOP for competing employers. It’s clear, however, that if the deal isn’t scuttled, Amazon will have a steep price to pay for it as long as progressives control state and city politics, inasmuch as the jobs and economic multiplier generated by the project are viewed by opponents as inadequate. So basically, progressive politicians will be an uninvited partner to Amazon’s NYC business operations. Not sure why Amazon would want that.
4
@MWR
No, NYC does not have a readily available talent pool.
New York is quite far down the list of rankings in terms of tech jobs and tech jobs created. In terms of desirability as a home for people with those skills, I'd guess it's not even on the list.
1
@MWR It is not SOP for companies, just Amazon. Apple set up shop in Austin, Texas...asked for nothing, but talent. Amazon is greedy, a welfare queen.
The whole problem with this deal is that there was too much King Cuomo, and not enough Andrew Cuomo. I’m sure that in the face of tax laws passed last year that are outright hostile and harmful to states like New York and California the governor is doing his best to come up with alternatives to replace a serious loss of income for the state. It may have been prudent to include more of the movers and shakers in the state, which I believe would have smoothed things over. It’s a shame that a project that has the potential to make jobs and tax revenue increase has become a convoluted process. Totally surprised that the governor does not play the part of diplomat as well as he should, and underestimated the ill will he fostered by allowing and enabling the Republicans to control of the state for so long.
9
Even with Democrat control of the State Senate and Assembly, Albany remains a dysfunctional quagmire. Cuomo can't even get a consensus on a no-brainer such as incentivizing Amazon to create thousands of jobs in Queens. Yesterday he announced a $2.3 billion budget shortfall and blames it on the federal tax cuts. Get ready New Yorkers, your state taxes are about to get ramped up, and they will soon exceed those in the People's Republic of California.
8
@paul but Cuomo wants to give Amazon $3 billion dollars. Makes no sense to give away other people's money to a company which do not need the money while the people who do need it pays those who do not need it.
1
I do not understand why a company like Amazon wastes it’s time and energy in trying to make a deal with such an anti business/jobs city like NYC.
15
Anti-business and anti-jobs? NYC has great infrastructure and support for small businesses. It has a huge pool of highly-educated talent. It has great financing opportunities. It makes total sense to expand here.
12
@Jesse James
Anti-business? I guess you didn't learn why so many from your area voted for Trump, He claimed he was going to empty the swamp and get rid of corruption in Washington and all over the country. Billion dollar companies don't need "corporate welfare", yet, when they can spend unlimited amounts of money lobbying politicians to get what they want, they do so at taxpayers expenses, that means YOU!
3
@Aleksey. Except for local and state politicians.
The future is in high-tech companies like Amazon. Deal with it. I am always amazed to see how politicians that barely can use their smart phone try to influence public policy in a way that might have made sense in the '60s or or '70s but will relegate cities and states to second class status permanently. If not Amazon, what business would you prefer to move to NY? Coal mining? Get a grip. And the argument that Amazon will influence public education in order to have better qualified workers, THANK GOD, because public educators sure ain't fixing our backward school system. No wonder the Chinese and places like Singapore are out-educating, out-performing, and out-building us at every turn. Look at Asian education, tech focus, and infrastructure, and you see how far behind we are. Let's keep bickering among ourselves and let the world pass us by.
31
I always wonder why people think Amazon is "high tech". It's a mail order business on steroids, hooked into the internet and a steamy underbelly of cheesy Chinese suppliers... The vast bulk of their business is "fullfillment", i.e. sorting, packing, shipping. Those promised 50K jobs aren't going to all be at the top of the organizational pyramid.
6
@vcb Wrong. You need to look up a little something called AWS. They make more money on that than selling you stuff. They very much are a technology company.
1
3 billion dollars. For around 30,000 jobs. Maybe ask all New Yorkers, NYCity, what else the state might do with that bit of pocket change. Maybe hire workers to fix all those dilapidated public housing units? Set up a state-owned manufacturing plant for generic drugs of all types. Manufacture....solar panels, wind generators for backyards...
3 billion- for overseeing fulfillment. Tough choice.
52
@Jo Williams. You wrote:"3 billion dollars. For around 30,000 jobs". You should finish the equation: because @ $100,000 salary each, that's...3 Billion dollars! Much of which will be spent right here in NYC on rent, taxes, groceries, etc., every year. That's real money. The list of things you'd like to do with "the" $3 Billion is nice, but there is no $3 Billion being given to Amazon. It's a tax break. Not a cash payment. The cash payment is the salaries which will be spent right here.
3
@Jo Williams
A nice sentiment but, unfortunately, there's no political will for any of this.
This isn't just about brick and mortar. Amazon has proposed changed to school curriculum (without Dept of Education approval) so that its workforce can have the proper skills sets to work for them. So on top of the hay bale of money they are already being wooed with, they want the use of public schools and resources to train their workforce. Let that sink in.
24
@troublemaker
public schools should prepare their students for work. What would you like the public schools to do?
23
@troublemaker
Amazon is doing NYC a favor by pointing out that their pathetic school system is not preparing students to make a living in a 21st century economy.
2
Great idea to chase away Amazon.It's nothing but an evil corporation that wants to come to NY and employ thousands. Progressive NYC in action. By the way, Amazon leadership must really be clueless if they didn't see the union gambit long ago. If they were smart they would move to Indianapolis. Pretty nice place, inexpensive housing, and plenty to do. Probably most NYers have never been there which is why it is still nice.
18
@Bill 1. This is a technology office.
2. There is not enough sizable tech talent in Indiana. Especially if you compare it to NYC.
3. NYC needs to diversify its economics.
7
@Aleksey In answer to your 2. Point. Built it and they will come.
1