Promoting democracy is all well and good, but when allegations of RUSSIAN interference in the last (US) election have barely gone away, it’s best to tread lightly in what is effectively, ‘Russia’s backyard’.
Of course, when the Republican Party and its leader (and Mr. Pence) would rather heap praise on America’s enemies and call Democrats ‘crooked’ and ‘enemies of the state’ instead’, one can hardly be surprised to see them rush to Venezuela to work side by side by their Russian benefactors and their BIGGEST admirers.
1
We never get it! Trump and Pence are only interested in how they appear on stage or with the Russians. Nothing else really matters.
Maybe, arrogant, militarist, imperialist, but non-veterans, war-mongers, like Pence, Bolton, and particularly boe-spur Emperor Trump, should probably read a few quotes from Medal of Honor Marine General, Smedley Butler, wrote after his 37 years of military service, candor, and extreme courage in warning ‘we the American people’ about the danger of our country becoming more like an Empire than the democracy that Gen. Butler tried to protect all his life:
https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
1
Hah, so convenient. Venezuela has the biggest oil reserves in the world (check wikipedia), and is currently suffering through the worst governmental crisis since inception. And suddenly from nowhere, a young and promising candidate appears, instantly backed up by Pence to advance democracy and freedom.
Connect the dots. It all seems too familiar.
So Trump/Pence have not only offered assistance to Venezuela's National Assembly and their neighbors in the region with millions of dollars and yet their citizens are brown/black people, but will not offer the same to our other 'American' citizens in Puerto Rico after the devastating hurricane they suffered with over 3,000 dead because he did not like the mayor standing up to him. Why are they involved in another country's politics to this extent when we all know what happened in Iran when we imposed our pick as their president? Have we learned nothing. I know Trump knows absolutely nothing about history, but Pence should know and should have told him so he would not put his foot in his mouth. This is just beyond the pale.
Absolutely correct. I hope the NYT reports on Elliot Abrams involvement in the Central American fiasco from the 80’s. He was complicit in the death of many independence minded protestors. The US including Abrams quashed the Central American “Spring” to keep the dictators in power. The immigration situation is their reward for meddling.
Is unwavering support similar to offering thoughts and prayers to shooting victims? Last week Pence also declared ISIS defeated.
Lucy has another football.
Individual #1 now has a new distraction for us. Perhaps the federal budget can now be signed. Mr Mueller what is taking so long.
1
I suggest Mauro declare Trump be replaced for an illegitimate election and systematically wrecking the US economy .
1
Sounds like just the War Trump is looking for to distract from his investigation
3
I am shocked that The United States is openly interfering in the internal affairs of another country! And to think that this can happen in the midst of the much talked about (shocking) Russian interference in the 2016 US presidential race. Certainly the citizens of countries around the world will be equally shocked at such unprecedented behavior by the US. Imagine the surprise in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Iran, Egypt, El Salvador, Brazil, Chile, Nicaragua, Honduras, Ecuador, Guatemala, Ukraine, and (even) Russia (as long as those feeling the shock are too young to remember 1918 to 1922 and a few other forgettable events ... like Clinton's support for the often drunk Yeltsin in 1996). Imagine the shock in Cuba, in Grenada and in Haiti. I suppose no one in Israel remembers American aide to Shimon Peres in 1996 so they too will be shocked. I wonder at the degree of disbelief that will be expressed in Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia or Angola. What is the world coming to when the America First Trump administration (featuring the most pious and honorable Mike Pence) openly interferes in Venezuela.
3
@Jim Mamer
Bravo, touche, right on, thank you, thank you, thank you!
1
Pence should not involve himself in the affairs of a sovereign state. He should state what he thinks about the issues that relate to Venezuela but encouraging civil unrest is a dumb move.
3
Oh, the irony of Florida Republicans taking it upon themselves to determine who is the "legitimate" president of Venezuela. What's next? Will they send Katherine Harris down to ensure a fair and legitimate process?
6
Pence should shut his trap. He is second in command of the sinking ship known as the Trump Administration. Never before in our country's history have such anti-intellectual clowns engaged in such destructive, unpatriotic behavior. And yes, I do know American history. They will go down as the worst leaders this country has ever had. Who exactly is Pence serving? It seems to be his own twisted version of God and not the United States of America. It's pretty clear why the folk in Indiana were looking to offload this fool. Venezuelans do not need your support, Pence. You wouldn't know a democratic institution if it fell on your head.
12
Trump and Pence - the creepiest meeting of the mindless on the planet.
7
Empty words coming from an empty man.
Maduro is a monster and Venezuela deserves to be free of his tyranny, but I doubt the US, in its current state, could even muster the will to pass new sanctions.
Remember that Maduro is one of Putin's allies.
6
Well, waiting for when we tell Venezuelans they aren’t welcome here.
4
It would be nice if the US had some credibility to help in this situation; however, we have squandered all our credibility on MAGA.
If I was a Venezuelan I would take no comfort in basically anything that Pence, or anyone from this administration, states.
6
Unless you chose another leader that doesn't just wilt like a vassal state to regime.
Where is the outrage? A foreign country overtly trying to not only influence an election, but now overtly supporting a coup against the elected president? The Russian are at it again!
Oh, wait. We have seen the enemy and he is us -- Pogo.
When we do something to influence a foreign government (Israel, Syria, and Venezuela), it is because we are morally superior and enlightened. But when some other country attempts to do the same thing (whether or not successfully) to the U.S., they are vile, evil, undemocratic villains.
When our elected officials stand up for "our" interests abroad, they are justified. Yet the possibility that our candidates for office (Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump) may have had dealings with the Russians (Steele dossier and pre-election meetings), horror abounds among the partisan interests.
Sure we are hypocrites. If it seems that we don't like the way a country is run, we feel justified in "fixing" that country. But any hint that another country may be trying to have its self-interests considered by U.S. officials or that our agenda is different from those countries is perfect justification for the U.S. to "draw lines in the sand" or whatever.
2
“The United States looks forward to you ousting a dictator hostile to our interests and installing a dictator friendly to our interests”
5
And we complain about Russians planting fake news on Facebook? I guess openly calling for a rebellion is better. Russians should rethink their tactics and save money for buying ads.
2
Wag the dog
We can not afford a war to distract us from presidential malfeasance
1
This man Pence pulled from the depths of obscurity to apply salve to the ministers and priests who would savage our blood soaked constitution to fill their own coffers makes me ill.
3
Mike Pence, the worst Vice President in the history of the United States. He has no real opinions but absorbs others by osmosis.
4
Oil.
2
There is no question that Nicolas Maduro is an awful leader displaying the deadly combination of autocracy, corruption and incompetence. With some help from his predecessor, Hugo Chavez, Maduro has utterly ruined a once prosperous country.
That said, one has to wonder about the principles guiding American foreign policy where threats are made against a disliked dictator while this administration cozies up to the even more deadly dictator, Kim Jong-un and other lethal autocrats around the globe.
11
What with the country now firmly in the grip of crisis and turmoil Trump may be justified in believing that he already has a lock on the title of "Worst American President Ever."
But he may be overestimating his chances for the honor and had best not rest on his laurels --- because Pence clearly desires the title and is fast gaining ground on him.
7
Pence and trump should resign since they are illegitimate leaders installed by a foreign power. Anything he now says on the world stage is laughable given the nefarious circumstances involved with how he and trump obtained office.
13
So the Trump House is doing in Venezuela exactly what they have railed against Obama and Hillary doing in Libya?
So much for 'America First.'
Or is this something that happens without Trump's knowledge because he's singularly focused on saving himself with "a wall or steel barrier"?
Because really, for Individual 1, it's always been:
Trump First
Party Second
America Last
22
Openly calling for rebellion? Is that normal? I think not.
5
@TKGPA Check out our nod for the coup in Honduras in 2009. The added violence that resulted still causes flight to the US today.
5
@Marge
Our "nod for the coup in Honduras in 2009"? What are you talking about? The Obama administration opposed the coup, very stupidly I should add. Hondurans did that themselves.
1
What will Pious Pence utter when the Mueller Investigation releases its report, establishing that Trump himself is an "illegitimate" President, who criminally conspired with Russia to help win his own election???
10
@John Grillo Pence will be thrilled to be the next president. Horrific!
2
If Trump is Putin’s puppet, who is pulling Pence’s strings?
We don’t trust him to run the United States, we didn’t elect him for his foreign policy skills.
9
@Jann McCarthy "Who is pulling Pence's strings?" The Christian fundamentalists who seek to establish the USA as a white Christian nation.
3
Suggestion to Venezuelan protesters: Ask the U.S.' Kurdish allies in Syria what Pence meant by 'unwavering'.
26
Where is the USA "unwavering support" for the people of Saudi Arabia, Egypt? May be they are not getting it because the USA supports friendly dictators and the Trump organization is doing business in those two countries.
15
When Hugo Chavez was president Venezuela had three presidential elections and two constitutional referendums. All were observed by international monitors and declared to be fair.
Despite this clear exercise of popular democracy the US supported a military coup against a duly elected president. We did the same several years later in Honduras, following a pattern set by our ousting President Aristide in Haiti.
The US has a long history of supporting elections, but only if their preferred candidate is elected. This is not democracy.
Pence's preferred candidate ran from a party that was defeated during the last election. Analysts in Venezuela saw this as more a vote against the right wing party of Guaido than it was enthusiastic support for Maduro.
Maduro is a terrible president. But he is also an elected president. So good, or bad, it's up to the people of Venezuela to decide who they wish to elect, not the US.
8
@drspock Maduro is not an elected president, for this you would need a real election. He isn’t even Venezuelan. But alas, their propaganda machinery is large.
2
January 23rd is a date that reminds Venezuelan that they can get rid of despots as it happened in 1958. As a dear family member who lives in Caracs puts it, there is a Maduro lead genocide going on Venezuela. The Regime is organized crime, a very powerful cartel.
International support for the legitimacy of Juan Guaido matters. Venezuelans are being brave going out to the streets of the country knowing that Maduro sends troops to shoot them. God bless Venezuela and give this movement the strength to oust the intruder.
3
VZ needs to solve its own problems.
8
Doesn't that constitute meddling in internal affair of other countries?
26
@yulia yes, and the majority of Venezuelans like me, would openly welcome US “meddling”. We’re currently overrun by the meddling of Cuba, Russia and the Colombian narco forces. We rather have the US armed forces help us counter the balance.
4
Ask the Kurds how much a promise from the United States is worth.
33
Tweeting support for Maduro’s opponents plays into his hands by allowing him to brand them as US pawns.
8
Pence should show unwavering support for anti-Trump patriotic Americans.
17
One illegitimate president calling out another. How to protect the Amazon?
11
Maduro is no saint, but the USA is by far the most militaristic and dangerous country on earth, our elections are rigged, our democracy is owned by the billionaires thanks to the Roberts court in Citizens United, and Trump is more corrupt and sick than Maduro could ever be.
That the USA would be backing a violent coup in a small country far away is no surprise. We've been doing that kind of thing for decades.
26
If what you say is true, one would expect more Floridians fleeing to Venezuela than Venezuelans fleeing to Florida. But it’s not.
And for me this was the wake-up call. On a recent visit to FL, every Uber driver I had except for one was a recent Venezuelan refugee.
They all stated support for assassinating Maduro, and talked non-stop about the evil of socialism. They were borderline possessed, which I guess being starved and abused by your government will do to you.
I don’t think we should get involved - let the right wingers in Columbia and Brazil sort it out. But I’m guessing these are Florida’s new Cubans. So maybe, just maybe, it makes sense to fix Venezuela so we don’t have a major swing state get inundated with newly converted right wingers. If you want a Governor like Gillum, or a progressive President, keeping Venezuelans in Venezuela might be the best approach. The exodus has already swung Brazil and Columbia to the right (because they can’t support the refugees), and it could swing our elections too. It makes socialism look bad, which hurts our progressive candidates.
This needs to be FIXED!
4
@Trans cat mom
Brazilian immigration laws are very generous. Although we are going through the worst economic crisis of our history, we are doing our best in relation to the humanitarian crisis that is happening in Venezuela.
One of the first things the new government did was to send the Health Minister to the bordering state of Roraima to talk to the Venezuelans and see what can be done to improve their condition, but you won’t read it in the NYT.
One of the reasons Bolsonaro won the election was because we, Brazilians, were afraid of Brazil turning into a Venezuela, imo.
I support a group that helps Venezuelans adjust here in my city, Salvador. We were able to get some of them full scholarship at a University here and a job. This is happening all over Brazil. There are some people here who are against Brazil helping Venezuelans, but so far they are a very loud minority.
3
It appears the oposition party is free to express their opinion. Advocating mass protest. I do worry that folks in the photo don't have the funds to buy neckties. Must be bad there.
Defenders of the vice president. When Mr. Pence begins to act like a fully developed adult. Right at the moment your administration has all the gravitas of a mob of high school kids. With pretty limited supervision.
7
Maduro is an illegitimate president. He prevented opposition candidates from running for president. Then he delegitimized the opposition in the legislature. He is starving his people because he doesn't know how to run the country. There are massive shortages of food and medicine because the bolivar is worth so little and is shrinking about the time. While his people are losing 20 pounds per year, he and his wife were stuffing their faces in a European restaurant with a nutty celebrity chef. Maduro keeps himself very well fed and like ours, doesn't care about poor people.
Venezuela has squandered its huge oil reserves by allowing the oil industry to be run by people who don't know what they are doing. Maduro needs to be toppled but it shouldn't be will help from us. We also have a know-nothing president. Ours benefitted from outside interference from a foreign country and is a man unfit to run our country. He also has no idea what he is doing. Let the South American countries deal with Maduro. Pence should mind his own business.
9
There should be mass protests against Trump/Pence because of many horrid things, including the mass diversion from Trump's malfeasance through the government shut-down and Pence's bizarre threats to the separation of church and state. Out with them!
8
If Pence was on my side in anything I'd run for the hills.
8
Here we go!
Pence & CO. LLC are going to start a war in South America.
“Nicolás Maduro is a dictator with no legitimate claim to power,” Mr. Pence said. “He’s never won the presidency in a free and fair election, and he’s maintained his grip on power by imprisoning anyone who dares to oppose him.”
Pence only wishes he could act with the same impunity.
10
The main cause of this failed state is the rich and powerful looted Venezuela’s treasury, the rich business owners converted their cash, and they all call Florida home, happily ever after. They didn’t even try to help it to work; they just moved to a lap of luxury and boy are they glad.
8
“He’s never won the presidency in a free and fair election”
So Pence is finally turning on 46?
Could you picture Pence offering the same support for mass demonstrations against a ruler who forces hundreds of thousands to work without pay, just to get a vanity project of little practical value approved?
16
A limited freedom agenda is a welcome change from the Obama Administration that relished the opportunity to embrace and support leftist dictators like Chavez/Maduro, Ortega, and the Castros.
Dear VP Pence
Your overly solicitous platitudes may have struck a chord with your supporters but please do not attempt to employ this strategy with the rest of the us. You are a looming danger and an embarrassment.
7
I support:
- Mass protests in Venezuela against President Nicolás Maduro
- Mass protests in Cuba against the Cuban Communist Government
3
Well, Russia supported mass protests in the US, and Americans were not happy about, why Venezuelans should be happy about American involvement?
5
@Kurt VanderKoi
Why do you stop there? What about mass protests against the governments of Vietnam, China, Russia, Czech Republic, Hungary, and all the other countries that are left-wing or right-wing totalitarian regimes? Let me guess why: you consider imprisonment, torture, corruption, mismanaged economies, and no press freedom from the left to be evil, but when it is perpetrated by fascists its OK, because they are fighting socialism and communism. When are some Americans going to grow up and stop looking at the world as some kind of hollywood move in which evil fights good, and their are no complexities.
1
Out of Syria and in to Venezuela? The whipsaw character of this administration’s foreign policy is enough to induce nausea. When will this Twilight Zone episode end?
7
Well, the soil is fertile, it rains a lot, and nearly every tree and most bushes produce something edible? They're in the tropics and can't manage land well enough to grow their own food? What's up with that? Ignorance? Laziness? Do the rich control all the farmland? Don't farmers there know how to rotate crops so they don't exhaust the soil? I guess not. I guess they'd rather sit around idle while more people pour into urban areas with less room and even less food. Looks like the problem is there's too many people there for the corporation know as The Government of Venezuela to operate competently and efficiently. Confidence is long gone. It's a disaster from which it will take decades to recover. And yes, we should stay out of it. Once fighting breaks out there's going to be UGE refugee crises at every (easy) border crossing. The social contract in Venezuela is broken. Shattered. That is what happens when the wealthy, the plutocrats, the kleptocrats hold out as long as they can instead of giving up and allowing things to change . The longer they hold out the more violent, the more catastrophic, the more destructive the changes will be and there's a good chance stability, trust, and goodwill will be irretrievable.
3
I have never been a fan of Maduro. Mike Pence however, has just given Maduro valuable support in spades. The people of Venezuela, and especially the armed forces, will increase their support for Maduro because of Pence. They remember well enough that the United States has interfered in Venezuela's governing whenever it got the chance. As recently as 2002 our government engineered and immediately recognized as the Venezuelan government an inept coup.
4
“We stand with you, and we will stay with you” are words that should not be spoken by a high official of the US Government to people resisting oppression overseas unless the administration has weighed contingency plans and decided to go as far as military intervention.
In 1956, US Government-funded Radio Free Europe gave Hungarians the impression that the US would come to their aid if they rose up against Soviet oppression, and the results were tragic. The Hungarians rose up, but the Americans didn’t come.
7
The U.S. and Brazil should clean Venezuela up pronto. While it will break Ocasio-Cortez's heart to see another failed socialist state go down the drain, we should put the actual suffering of the people of Venezuela ahead of Socialist science projects.
2
What do you mean 'clean up'? Remove Maduro and put in somebody from unpopular opposition?
4
Well, if anyone understands authoritarian heads of state "elected" under dubious circumstances, it's the Trump administration.
14
It is not our business to interfere with the regimes of any country, however much we dislike those regimes. Why is this even remotely okay?
9
...."We are with you..." doesn't cut it.
We need to impose full sanctions on Venezuela - as Mr. Maduro has enough revenues to keep himself and the military which protects him, in power....there is nothing left for the people.
It's an insidious government that's systematically starving the population - Maduro is a tyrant of untold proportions. Isolating the Country financially can cripple his government.
We must act now - the National Assembly has estimated only 1 in 10 Venezuelans could afford enough daily food; dozens of children die each month from starvation - 9 out of 10 Venezuelans could not pay for food. It's a crisis.
Vocal support is meaningless - cut them off from the financial markets.
Yet again the US is poking its nose in the affairs of a South American nation. Maduro is a villain, no doubt about that. However, it was a similar kind of foreign policy enacted by the US in the 70s and 80s that birthed the "humanitarian crisis on our southern border", now so bitterly decried by the Trump Admin and its supporters. Therefore, in, say, 10 years hence, Americans should not be screaming about foreigners coming to take away American jobs when Venezuelans start streaming into the country by the thousands. As the Good Book has it, "You reap what you sow."
4
One country should tamper with or influence another’s electoral process, should it?
7
Of all arbiters on this planet, the Trump régime is the last qualified to proclaim another, illegitimate; and with what wanton promiscuity, Republicans always uphold their own degeneracy as the touchstone of what is proper in Latin America. One has to be brain dead, one has not to have lived through the Reagan comedy, the frantic Floridian Electoral College starvation of the innocents of Cuba, to countenance this monstrous Christian impersonator as a voice of assurance to the class it has always disdained. To be well in this country compels one to be sick.
37
@Carter Nicholas
You may find the Trump Administration distateful but it is as legitimate as any government this nation has ever had.
1
So is Maduro. He won the election.
2
Did Maduro have Russia's help? Is THAT his crime?
4
No, his "crime" is the suffering caused to the Venezuelan people by the sanctions that the US has imposed on Venezuela for years. Those sanctions have prevented medicine and food from getting through (much like what happened in Iraq before we invaded them...remember???), and have again been caused by Venezuela's oil reserves that were nationalized by Chavez. I guess the US wants Brazil's "solution".
Starting with 1954, when the USA got rid of Mosedeg (sp?) in favour of the Shah because of--guess what?--oil, it has carried on throughout the world doing the same. It even tried it in Great Britain against the labour Government of Harold Wilson in the 70's.
Pence is like one of those baseball bobble heads- he moves around from the neck up, but has nothing to say. Why would anyone take this guy seriously? Even when he tries to sound forceful, he is so scripted and stiff that it is painful to watch.
Trump will probably tweet something in the next day to reassure Venezuelans that Pence is wrong and that they are on their own.
14
Policeman of the world once more. We have more than enough committments. Honor them first e. g. NATO, Japan, Taiwan, Israel. We’re fully committed, no more please.
5
The hatred expressed in these comments is appalling. This is a straight foreign policy article, yet it’s met with hatred, disgust and distain for Pence personally. You all should look in the mirror and see if you like what you see.
6
@DRS I have a few friends in Venezuela. I hope and pray they are safe in this protest.
2
Have you met Pence? Have you worked with him? Have you lived in the state where he was governor? Listened to him evangelize? Have any of his policies or opinions in Indiana when he was governer negatively affected you or yours directly?
6
@DRS I’m very disturbed to read about meetings in the WH about whether or not to support the opposition or to invade militarily in Venezuela. Shouldn’t the US State Dept. be taking a lead on working diplomatically w/ them? But 45’s Administration has gutted State and all Trump knows is fighting and dominating his “enemies.” So it’s not surprising to me that people express anger.
2
Just like Trump is with the Kurds in Syria. Do not trust Pence; Trump; GOP. Ray Sipe
9
I wonder if this will work better than the pledge of a previous President that Bashar al-Assad must go. Or if it will just leave another target more exposed?
2
People of Venezuela! Know this: if Pence is with you, you are alone.
46
Pence actively promoting revolution in a foreign country? And "we will stand with you"? Trump Administration is built on the sand of FOX News; better ask Coulter and Hannity their position first. How about when Americans get completely fed up with the Trump Regime? Ray Sipe
31
He's with them until they start walking north, that is.
64
It is shameful to watch the contortions of left-wingers trying to defend the socialist dictatorship that is starving its people, causing a huge refugee crisis, trampling human rights and destroying the economy of the once-rich country. And why? Because the Trump administration is finally doing something right. The same people who howl against the immorality of every move Trump makes are suddenly embracing realpolitik and warning against intervention on pragmatic grounds. The opposition is quickly becoming as contemptible as the president.
10
@Mor
I'm a supporter of socialist revolution in Latin America (though I personally prefer Social Democracy), but a vocal and active opponent of Maduro, mainly because he is a failed leader who, along with Chavez, did not adequately manage oil production (their main cash crop), nor prepare for oil prices to fall. So you and I agree that Maduro has destroyed the country and is starving his people. But where I totally disagree with you is that I wouldn't care what administration is in the White House--I'd say the same thing to all of them: stay out of it. Not only because of the US history in the region, but also because it is the surest way to legitimize Maduro's oft repeated claims of US imperialism. Washington: just shut up.
18
Who is defending him?
6
@ Mor
You’d be right if it were true. All the Democrats I know who know anything about Latin America despise this guy Maduro and his predecessor Chavez. Only cronies benefitting from Chavista corruption could pretend to like these gangsters. Remember when Chavez printed “make me president forever” ballots and sent them to Honduras to try to make Zelaya president for life? No one shed a tear when Zelaya was removed.
You might be missing the point of what most commenters are saying: Pence is the wrong messenger. He and his boss have no consistency and no credibility.
1
Because we've done such a bang up job of these kinds of things in the past? Because we don't have anything better to do? Because there is some kind of threat posed? Or even more unbelievably, we think we have some kind of moral high ground to hold?
11
The rich and "powerful" would love to see Venezuela return to pre-Hugo American control. We sold them ships, planes, and munitions. We influenced their oil development and sales. We turned a blind eye to graft and corruption as long as it favored the U.S. We did not decry the excesses of the Guardia Nacional. We were making lots of money from the misery we supported. All that being said, during those days, any Venezuelan who wanted to go to college and graduated from public schools could do so free of charge and did not have to pay back back-breaking student loans as found in the U.S. Now they are lucky if they can buy frijoles. Pence (and Trump) need to keep their greedy, dirty hands out of Venezuela. Let Venezuelans determine their own fates.
11
@Angelsea
Frijoles?
Well, the soil is fertile, it rains a lot, and nearly every tree and most bushes produce something edible? They're in the tropics and can't manage land well enough to grow their own food? What's up with that? Ignorance? Laziness? Do the rich control all the farmland? Don't farmers there know how to rotate crops so they don't exhaust the soil? I guess not. I guess they'd rather sit around idle while more people pour into urban areas with less room and even less food. Looks like the problem is there's too many people there for the corporation know as The Government of Venezuela to operate competently and efficiently. Confidence is long gone. It's a disaster from which it will take decades to recover.
1
@matty So, does knowing about crop rotation make you an expert on agriculture? Especially tropical agriculture?
1
According to Mike Pence the U.S. supports the Venezuelan National Assembly, “as the only legitimate democratic body in the country”.
If the National Assembly was elected in the 2015 Venezuelan parliamentary election, and the election was conducted under the so-called dictatorship of Nicolás Maduro, how is it possible that it is a legitimate democratic body?
Could it be that all of the elections that the socialists won are illegitimate, but as soon as the opposition won a parliamentary majority it was done legitimately? Are the attempts by the opposition, in cahoots with the U.S., to destabilize the socialist government by meting sanctions, destroying the national currency, fomenting riots, fostering hyperinflation, and causing a general malaise in the country, legitimate?
I am not a fan of Maduro, but the machinations of the US-supported opposition stinks to high heaven.
9
I will predict that many NYT readers will react to this particular news as another dumb bad move of the Trump administration against the "legitimate elected" government of Venezuela. As a Venezuelan let me clarify a few things:
1) The Maduro regime *is not* legitimate. The 6 year term that Maduro and Co appointed for themselves *is not* the result of free and fair elections.
2) Venezuela is going through an economic and humanitarian crisis of epic proportions. The causes of this tragedy are the Maduro and his predecessor policies (21+ years in full control of all government branches).
3) Corruption of the Venezuelan government and the armed forces that support it is rampant.
4) Many countries (not only the US) do not recognize Maduro as the legitimate Venezuelan president anymore.
So I am not a fan of the Trump administration but here they are right. What Venezuela needs is international support of the forces resisting the dictatorial imposition of theMaduro regime and the restoration of democracy.
10
@Bruce
Even if we grant that all five of your statements are fact, if I was you I'd want the US to simply shut-up and stay out of. Voluntad Popular doesn't need the US government PR, and Maduro will only use it to claim that the US--true to its 120 year history in the region--is practicing yanqui imperialism. What is so wrong if they just simply stay silent and observe how Venezuelans solve their own problems?
8
@Bruce Thank you for saying all this. I have a few Venezuelan friends and what you say is true.
3
Pence has the fortitude to speak out against a third world Venezuela but silent on Russia? Venezuela has little to do with the USA except Citgo. Go for the money.
9
Trump's proposed "compromise" would require that asylum seekers stay in their home country while the apply for a visa to the US. So is Trump requiring Venezuelans who are politically prosecuted to stay there if they want to come the US?
6
Americans constantly interfere with other countries’ business, but throw tantrum when Russia elects their President.
12
Heck, the current political mess of Central and South America is due to US involvement.
That their citizens are fleeing to the US should be a wake up call to America that we should start stop supporting these puppet Democracies.
As an example:
Iran.
6
@Gdnrbob
No, the mess that are Latin American countries is due to centuries of political and societal culture and dysfunction.
Mike Pence, Evangelical whisperer said, "“We stand with you, and we will stay with you until Democracy is restored". Too bad he wasn't talking about the American people!
12
Mike Dunce should keep his nose out of it, he can't even solve getting our government reopened, this administration is rife with incompetence and it all starts with the two clowns at the top.
It looks like Pence is trying to resurrect a Contra-type situation to distract American's from their own ineptitude and possible illegitimate election with the help of Russia.
7
“Don’t worry, Venezuelans !
Tax cuts for millionaires and forced birthing are on the way !”
Mike Pence
38
Does Pence see the irony of his statement? Mr Trump also has no legitimate claim to power because he didn't win the presidency in a free and fair election.
18
Want a review of all of our efforts in Asia and the Middle East to pick a leader to oust and someone to put in place?
I thought one of Trump's promises was to NOT meddle in other countries.
7
Interesting that Pence is starting to act more presidential. I almost hope this happens. Almost...
so we can go from a twitocracy to a theocracy? no thanks!
6
Please first speak to the people of Indiana before considering his potential presidential aspirations.
2
I think what everyone is missing in these comments is that the whole population of Venezuela with the exception of the well connected is suffering horribly from the conditions in their country. How about some no strings attached help for the people and then let them decide for themselves who will lead them and who their friends are. Enough political gamesmanship when actual human lives are at stake.
9
Maduro is a catastrophe, but the Venezuelan opposition will have to fight this one without US intervention. US support will only last while Trump needs a distraction from all the Russian collusion, and will be very much gone once he is impeached...
15
Here we go...the narrative is in place.
6
I wonder how many allies and Venezuelans back our efforts to oust trump and Pence? Indeed, Maduro can rightfully claim that trump-Pence's rule is illegitimate too.
Many of our allies are also with us until we restore our legitimate democracy untainted by Russian interference. Even a stop to trump's public desire to have his opponents - political and from the press - from being locked up.
That said, of course Maduro and his ilk have got to be ousted. Maduro has as much to do with socialism and democracy as trump and Republicans have to do with free markets and democracy. In fact, the two ruling groups resemble each other so much as they both guide our two countries into oblivion.
Did Pence clear his speech with trump, ... err, Putin? After all isn't Putin busy establishing air bases in Venezuela to fly over trump's new wall?
22
@Dean Curry
Have you looked around you Dean? Have you seen the national, economic and security disruption with half a million Americans working for nada, lining up at food banks, Coast Guard personnel asked to sell their belongings to make ends meet. Yup. I gave trump-Pence and Republicans too much credit. Unlike Maduro, trump and Republicans needed Russian assistance to steal the election.
3
@Dean Curry
You're right, Dean.
Trump is far more corrupt, immoral and dangerous than Maduro.
3
Pence's statement, while welcome, does not go far enough. The US should encourage the Venezuelan legislature to declare itself an opposition government which the US should then recognize, followed by rendering it all needed assistance to eject Maduro and the Cubans supporting him.
Unfortunately for Venezuela, they have no Augusto Pinochet to take decisive action and defend the country as Pinochet saved Chile in 1973.
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@publicitus
Pence's statement goes to far. It is meddling by a foreign country. If Russian collusion is a problem so is US interference. Cant call a government that was elected by a constitutional process to be removed.
2
Pinochet saved Chile? I never knew that mass murder and strategic assassination were what salvation looked like.
7
@Anil If the legislature declares itself to be a new government, it can request whatever foreign assistance it thinks is necessary. We then have a legal right to provide that assistance. Maduro and his cronies are attempting to impose a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship of the proletariat, with Cuban assistance. The US should prevent that, and if a new government is recognized, then we have the legal authority to help it resist Maduro.
@John lebaron: Allende was also attempting to impose a dictatorship of the proletariat, and his leftist allies, especially Carlos Altamirano and the MIR (Left Revolutionary Movement), were murdering Allende's opponents. While I generally eschew violence if it is avoidable, I can easily understand why Pinochet thought it was not avoidable. If you do not understand that, then you either have not read the history of Chile from that period or, worse yet, have read only leftist caricatures of history.
By the way, there is mass murder going on in Venezuela as we speak. But it is infants and toddlers shriveling up and dying instead of leftist zealots so, for some people, that apparently makes it acceptable.
Would anyone in their right mind believe anything that Trump/Pence has to say let alone promise? Lying has consequences, credibility.
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@ad
Pence is only providing moral support. And that to is wrong. It is meddling and collusion with forces working against the constitution of Venezuela.
3
socialist dictators have destroyed the venezuelan economy, crushed out human rights and opposition. The opposition deserves our support. Obama stood by silently during the decline.
Middle class in venezuela was very very comfortable just 15 years ago, now the country starves. It's not dissimilar to suffering under Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin.
Big government leads to big totalitarian controls, sadly.
Are Bernie's policies so different than Chavez? Nope.
Capitalism ain't perfect, but its so much better than any alternative.
6
Our country has enjoyed a blend of capitalism and socialism since the Great Depression and Bernie is nothing new in this regard.
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@Joe Yoh
This President was elected by the people. Just because capitalists, liberals and media did not get what they wanted does not justify causing problems.
2
"Are Bernie's policies so different than Chavez?" Yes.
1
"He’s never won the presidency in a free and fair election, and he’s maintained his grip on power by imprisoning anyone who dares to oppose him.”
ha...forgot for a moment who Twittledum was talking about..
Seriously though, I was born in Venezuela in 1957 at the beginning of the oil boom. I lived there and Aruba and Colombia and many other places. I remember when Richard Nixon visited Caracas and they had to use an umbrella as he went under the parapet at the airport because there was so much spit.
to be honest, I'm glad we're finally taking a stand overtly at least (the CIA did try to recruit me twice).
btw...I also used to host TV show here in Manhattan and we did a lot of shows on Venezuela. Here's one of them that really gives a great explanation of the overall scenario.
http://wrmnyc.blogspot.com/2018/02/who-is-leopoldo-lopez.html?m=1
the issue though in all of this is the Venezuelan people. the last thing they need is a bumbling American president and vice president sending forces into Venezuela.
what they do need though is some help getting organized and armed. Let's apply what we've learned in the Middle East about proxy wars to Venezuela (and maybe send some drones that work!).
and help set up some sort of construct which plows the profits from the oil business mostly back to the people in Venezuela so they can prosper and lead a stable South America.
5
@Tony If the Us gets involved, it won't be to plow the profits from the oil business mostly back to the people in Venezuela so they can prosper and lead a stable South America. Instead, the US will divvy up the profits from the oil business mostly back to American oil companies and investors, with the balance going to the right-wing dictator of their choosing.
1
I guess we can't complain about Russian interference when we stick our nose into Venezuela's government.
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@John Harper
HA HA HA! Russian collusion is actually getting help from Russia to win an election. This is far worse. It goes even beyond rigging polls. It is overthrowing a government.
1
"Nicolás Maduro is a dictator with no legitimate claim to power,” Mr. Pence said. “He’s never won the presidency in a free and fair election, "
Sort of like the current US President?..."Russia, if you're listening?"
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@lane mason
Even if Maduro is a dictator, which he is not. USA has supported and funded dictators, monarchs, sheikhs and undemocratic leaders with money and military equipment. This one is just not performing for America.
Take for example Noriega. A great friend of USA until he was not.
For a country that talks of Russian Collusion as bad. This is horrible.
7
And of course Pence is lying about Maduro having "never won the presidency in a free and fair election." Maduro narrowly (by less than 2%) won the presidency the first time in a free and fair election utilizing exactly the same election system in which five of the six municipalities of greater Caracas were won by opposition candidates. Then again last year he won the presidency easily (by about 40%) in a free and fair election in which all but one of the major opposition leaders stupidly decided to boycott the election and urged opposition voters not to participate in the election. Even with the opposition boycott, approximately 41% of registered Venezuelan voters chose to participate -- an abstention rate not unreasonably worse that historic abstention rates in several "free and fair" US presidential elections, and owing primarily to the opposition's promotion of non-participation in the democratic process. And what is the democratic voting record of the US's most highly subsidized "friend" Colombia -- the primary source of US hard drugs for the past half century?
4
In the closing paragraph the issue of the US proving more aid begs the question of who else is proving any aid at all? Too often it is assumed it is this country’s responsibility alone to provide aid. Where are the Chinese? Where are the Russians? Both of these countries aspire to world leadership.
1
I’m not sure what the motive is here, unless Pence wants to deliberately portray the opposition as shills of the United States. Given that Pence was willing to join this administration I’m not ruling out abject stupidity.
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@sedanchair The US motive is always monetary gain. Perhaps we plan to sell arms to them, or their enemies, as in Nicaragua, when we ruined that country.
4
Because all our other interventions in Latin America have been so successful? We we never learn?
66
Shameful, but not unexpected. Mr. Maduro was elected by the Venezuelan people. He did not take power in a coup or revolution. No one in Venezuela had even heard of Mr. Guaidó and now Pence thinks this is the president, the anointed puppet, while Maduro is the "usurper". Venezuela's Supreme Court had declared that Assembly in rebellion. It has nullified any decisions they take. Venezuelans also elected a National Constituent Assembly, following their Constitution's stipulations and it was ruled constitutional by the country's Supreme Court. During the presidential election in 2018, the US-backed opposition sectors met with the Venezuelan government in the Dominican Republic and had come to an agreement, which was ready to be signed. Then they received a call telling them not to sign anything, even though the government had acquiesced to most of their demands. Then they decided to boycott the election, although other opposition forces did take part. It was sabotage orchestrated by Washington. Now we are seeing a very worrisome situation which could see Venezuela turned into another Syria .
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@Julioantonio, the election included muzzling and imprisonment of opposition. "election" under soclialist dictators often come with no actual human rights as they proclaim power to the people", and stomp on opposition and protests and capitalism. No jobs now, no bread, just starvation.
8
@Julioantonio
Rather shocking that you say that Maduro was elected by the Venezuelan people, because he was not. Maduro is a dictator in every sense of the word. He is in power through voter intimidation and stealing fair elections by buying votes and destroying the opposition, not necessarily "legitimate". Looking at the situation in Venezuela, it is disappointing that there is any support for him in these comments. He is a dictator who, along with Hugo Chavez, have transformed one of the wealthiest nations in the region to a failed state. The failure is not an indictment on socialist policy, which Chavismo is not, but the failure resides in extreme corruption and economic mismanagement. Although I do not support the administration in any way, this is the right move for the White House. Support those who will restore the democratic process and ensure that Venezuela can once again become a safe and secure place to live.
2
@Julioantonio Just a thought, but "Mr." Maduro was NOT rightfully elected by the Venezuelan people. He was appointed by his fraudulent dictator of a predecessor, Chavez, who was well known for committing fraud during elections, having ties to the Colombian guerilla, and to narcs. While I don't support the current presidency, do not confuse Venezuelan propaganda and corruption with the truth. Our people are suffering if not dying at the hands of those criminals who claim to be there rightfully. They oppress basic human rights on a daily basis, attacking the opposition violently, illegally detaining opposition leaders and torturing them, threatening to cut off government employees who do not support them....The list goes on and on. There is no rule of law in Venezuela, and unfortunately, the situation gets worse every day. I recommend you do better research before making ill-informed comments.
2
Yes, Trump and Pence are the ultimate moral authorities on democracy and human rights, as is the U.S. generally.
Think of all the military coups we (and this newspaper) supported in Latin America, not to mention our many invasions, starting in the 19th century, all to promote freedom and democracy, as administered by the generals and local white oligarchs.
So there's every reason to believe that this time around our only motive time is the welfare of the people. What we need is more paradises like Honduras and Guatemala, which enjoy our staunch support and military aid, and provide their citizens with such wonderful lives, they flee to the Mexican border on foot, walking for days on end, hoping for relief from the remnants of American civil society our government hasn't yet managed destroyed.
60
Yeah, we were also "with" Iraqi Sunnis after the first Gulf War and left 'em swinging in the wind when Saddam came to exact revenge.
We were "with" the Kurds against ISIS until Trump decided to pull the rug out from under them and leave their fates to be determined by the president of Turkey, who considers them terrorists.
So, people of Venezuela, I wouldn't take too much comfort form Pence's words of support. Republican administrations will be "with" you until it no longer benefits their aims.
You may notice, too, that the other places they supported (for a while) had lots of oil. Just like your country. Coincidence? I think not.
49
It's a good thing Trump pledged to "stop racing to topple foreign regimes."
19