“It wasn’t that the American briefers were actually lying to us. They were, as the journalist Sebastian Junger wrote about American optimism in Afghanistan, simply inviting you to join a conspiracy of wishful thinking.“
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If there was ever any reason for us to be there that ended years ago. There is no end game. Whether we leave next week or ten years from now the result will be the same: Taliban, AlQueda, ISIS and every other terrorist organization will take over again. We should not risk one more American life or one more dollar “assisting” this country. Please please please let’s get out now and let the locals deal with their own country however that happens. It isn’t and never was for us to decide.
Shades of Vietnam. The French did not learn. We, the US, did not take note of the diplomatic and military failures of the French. Or we did take note, and with our arrogance ignored the French lessons. The NVA and the Viet Cong in the south were highly motivate. Remember General "Failure is not an option" Giap.
The US is not highly motivated in Afghanistan. There is no imminent danger for the US. Yepper, a ragtag army with motivation...seventeen years and counting.
As in Vietnam, the negotiations begin and the fighting continues.
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The sins in, and sinners of, Modern Afghanistan:
1. Historically, the Original sin of the Afghans was committed by Daoud Khan when he led a putsch against Zahir Shah (the King)
2. The next two sinners were Markist oriented Taraki and Hafizullah Amin
3. The next sin was the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
4. The next sinner was Babrak Karmal; next came Najibullah.
Foreign Devils (and their native collaborators) in Afghanistan
The attack on America on 9/11, precipitated a desire for revenge. America asked the Sovereign State of Afghanistan to surrender ObL and other suspected terrorists (whoever fights against American hegemony is labelled TERRORIST). The Afghans asserting their Sovereignty, asked for proof. Historically no hegemon supplies proof to a weaker state. Instead of supplying proof, America (accompanied by rag-tag colonialists) invaded Afghania. That was in 2001.
America does not directly have colonies (Puerto Rico, Mariana Islands, etc ?), but America as a hegemon installs local renegades, as Viceroys. Over these 18 years of American occupation, Karzai has been the Chief Quisling.
A perspective.
Since the 10th century, Afghanistan and the lands now constituting Pakistan have had Muslim Rule, although these rulers were of Turkish heritage. This Turkish-Afghan heritage is the heritage of Pakistan. America should recognize the fraternal & eternal relationship of Afghanistan & Pakistan.
The first 'A' in Pakistan, stands for Afghania.
This feels like 1973 when we abandoned SVN for political reasons. The Taliban are confident that they can defeat Afghan government forces once we are gone.
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@Bill
Bill, please realise, it is not Afghan government, but American INSTALLED Government.
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How is Pakistan, a country with whom we have 'friendly' relations, allowed to provide 'sanctuary' to Taliban leaders who keep this endless murder and mayhem going inside our 'ally' Afghanistan?
Pakistan, you will recall, sheltered Bin Laden until we paid him a visit.
Is the answer to the question, 'The US can't do anything about Pakistan's perfidy' ?
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@Paul
Paul, America has NEVER had friendly relations with Pakistan. America relationship with Pakistan has always been of the transactional type. This is why, when America wants something from Pakistan, it 'befriends' Pakistan. When the moment of need passes away, it throws Pakistan under the bus.
For your information, Afghanistan is not an America 'ally', it is an American occupied country.
Perhaps the foregoing explanation explains that Pakistan is not in a position to be perfidious, but America is.
@Paul. Pakistan has "the bomb". The USofA walks the fine line of determining the Pakistan protocol for launching a nuclear strike. The Pakistan intelligence service is known to have upper echelon supervisors sympathetic to the Taliban.
The US is negotiating with the Taliban! Since when we negotiate with terrorists? May be the US lied to us by claiming that the Taliban were terrorists
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Why are we in Afghanistan? Seventeen years and how have we "helped" these people? The point of Afghanistan was to stop Al Queda. Then we went into Iraq based on not just faulty intelligence but manipulation by the Bush administration and the press (looking at you NY Times). We set the stage for ISIS. But we stayed in Afghanistan. Hardly anyone knows now why we are there. Let the people of Afghanistan have their country back. Even if we don't like the result, it's their country. We need to get out.
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i am sorry that lives were lost. i am very glad that no american lives were lost.
why are americans still there? why do we care who rules this country? the Russians tried to defeat it and left after we helped defeat them or at least they went away. then the country turned against us and some of them bombed New York City and Washington dc. that was in 2001. we are still there and the taxpayers are paying for it and the military complex get richer and richer.
we were told years ago that we were training the "good guys" to defend their own country. i suspect those troops are retired by now. the yanks should leave in good order.
There's no fiasco like a U.S. foreign intervention fiasco.
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Where's the NYTimes box score for this war? Cost to date. Dead to date. Injured to date. Number of congresspersons in favor of continued war year one, year two, etc. Combat troops serving year to year? Consultants on war payroll?
These explosion stories communicate almost nothing.
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@stewart bolinger Thank you for the comment. We don't have a "box score" type feature, though I did pass along your suggestion to our editors. We do publish a regular Afghan War Casualty Report. You can find those here: https://nyti.ms/2MnZrOq. We also have a section, At War, dedicated to the costs and experiences of war. There you can find some of our recent coverage by journalists on the ground about the Afghan war that includes costs, experiences of combatants, political shifts, etc. You can sign up for the newsletter here: https://nyti.ms/2W8ZWjQ
And here are some of our latest articles on the Afghan War adressing some of the issues you brought up:
- https://nyti.ms/2MwVuGb
- https://nyti.ms/2MAKATj
- https://nyti.ms/2WcYNaP
- https://nyti.ms/2NqBdWC
Thanks again for reading.
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Since the American occupation of Afghanistan, and its installation of traitors and stooges to govern the country, what comes out of Afghanistan is FAKE NEWS. Now we know that what the quisling were announcing as UPRISINGS against the Taliban, were in fact the actions of ‘Afghans-in-the-service-of-America’. Making Afghans kill Afghans is in fact a strategy to saw permanent distrust, irreconcilable animosity, between the ‘for-hire Afghans’ and ‘free Afghans’, also known as Talibans.
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Can't we just say "Mission Accomplished", and go home?
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After 17 years of war in Afghanistan, US is still losing.
What a shame.
Was there ever any reason to invade the whole of Afghanistan?
Just to (not) catch one guy (Bin Laden)?
And why are we still there? And still losing?
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What a waste of time this last 17 years has been. This is an exercise in futility. Just like flogging a dead horse. That the invasion would morph into a guerrilla war was obvious. Do Americans win guerrilla wars? Not really. They should have learnt from Vietnam but did not.
The invasion of Afghanistan was precipitated by 9/11 and 9/11 was precipitated by decades of interference in Middle Eastern countries that had oil. Americans wanted cheap and consistent supplies--and lots of it. Guarding those oil supplies with American troops, especially in Saudi Arabia was very stupid and they were warned that it was not a good idea. The US was counter-attacked.
And now we have imperial representatives, cap in hand, negotiating with the Taliban, whilst munching on large slices of humble pie.
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This is how we fought the Revolutionary War against Britain .
Amazing we are still using the shock and awe tactics we used unsuccessfully in Vietnam in, what I see as Vietnam II (Iraq and Afgan).
The Bush family got us into the middle of the middle east mess by fighting the Arab Leagues battle in Kuwait. We got to go up against the type of foe Israel defeats w/o solving any political issues the Sunnis and Shia must settle themselves.
Then we added Syria and Yemen continuing stupid the belief that shock and awe could solve political problems.
We have not had a prez with the gravitas to stand up to the War Dept since IKE.
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Why are we in Afghanistan still?
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@Jean-Paul Marat
"Stability".
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@kz
I disagree. On the contrary, we are there to cause instability , confusion, mayhem, destruction, population reduction (sending people to their maker)!
General Douglas MacArthur pretty much summed up the dilemma the U.S. has constantly found itself in since the end of W.W.2; and why it constantly finds itself in these protracted wars that end in stalemates and frustration. He called the Korean situation a Half War. In his eyes an evil compromise with the devil.Then followed Vietnam; which proved his point. Afghanistan is yet more proof that America is ill equipped to deal with guerrilla warfare which is designed to prolong fights until America just gets fed up and leaves. The last real army vs. army showdown was Desert Storm; where the U.S. annihilated the Iraq army. Everyone learned that was suicide; and to directly engage the U.S. military was a bad idea. So the Taliban are following the Viet Cong strategy to the hilt. Hit and run; blend in with the locals and wait for decades if necessary to achieve their goals.
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@Greg Hodges
Show us the half-war ratios: their cannons to U.S. cannons, fighter jets to fighter jets, transport planes to transport planes, helicopters to helicopters, bullet deliveries to bullet deliveries, drones to drones, dollars spent to dollars spent, etc.
@stewart bolinger: I imagine you have missed the point Stewart. Of course they cannot match the massive military might of the U.S.; and never will. They KNOW that. The half war refers to the fact that MacArthur and the generals in Vietnam had severe restrictions on what they could or could NOT do in terms of striking at the enemy where they were. MacArthur was ordered NOT to cross the Yalu River; the Pentagon was told they could NOT invade North Vietnam; both because of the fear of a nuclear war with China. The Taliban and Bin Laden`s forces were hiding in the tribal lands of Pakistan for years; daring the U.S. to cross that border. That is what Half War means.
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@Greg Hodges...Half Wars are the still-born of politicians and diplomats. They gin up Tonkin Gulfs and WMD, then cower in the safety of their impenetrable bunkers.
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It’s doubtful whether the Taliban are ready to end their 17-year insurgency, although Zalmay Khalilzad, the US envoy to Afghanistan, raised the possibility of a breakthrough before presidential elections in April.
The Afghan security forces have suffered an unprecedented level of casualties as they are being targeted by not only the Taliban but also militants linked to ISIS.
The insurgents have been receiving shelter and support from Pakistan for years.
The Taliban aren’t ready for peace. And the Afghan government wouldn’t be able to accommodate them even if they were. Since the Soviet occupation in the 1980s, the Taliban know nothing else other than fighting, because their raison d’être is imbued with the jihadist ideology, which calls for the re-establishment of their Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan by military means. The emirate ceased to exist on December 17, 2001, after being overthrown by the Northern Alliance, which had been bolstered by the US-led invasion of the country.
Besides the Taliban's resources have been spent waging an insurgency, which had prevented them from moving beyond clandestine activity and developing public proficiency. They simply aren’t ready to enter the existing system of modern governance, abiding by the constitution and operating by its rules. It would take decades for them to adapt.
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@J. von Hettlingen
Herr von Hettlingen, I present to you a somewhat different perspective.
America hurls epithets (abusive labels) at anybody that shows temerity to tell America it is morally wrong. Those that America wishes to destroy, it first gives them notoriety (bad reputation, e.g. insurgents, rebels, rapists, drug-pushers, etc.). ISIS is the currently fashionable label America affixes on those, in Muslim countries, it wishes annihilate/overpower. I can tell you that, today, ISIS does not exist – it is fiction of febrile imagination.
Let me explain to you the relations between Afghania and Pakia. Afghanistan is Upland Pakistan, and Pakistan is Lowland Afghanistan. For a thousand years now they have had shared destiny and history. Hence, if Afghans come seeking shelter from America attacks (or attacks by the local thugs in the service of America) on their villages/homes, does Pakia have the moral obligation to shelter (and sustain) them? When the French fought the 100 Years war (1337-1453) against the Kingdom of England was that a jihadist ideology or a LOVE of Liberté.
Northern Alliance was nothing but turn-coats, who had sold their souls to America. In Europe there was saying: NO SWISS, NO WAR. That saying could be applied to Afghania as: No Northern Alliance, no Foreign occupation of Afghania.
The Taliban are fighting a war for Liberation (not an insurgency) against a super-power that has occupied their country for more than 17 years.
The US has really never been committed to cleaning up Afghanistan. We’ve negotiated with the Taliban before, given them weapons to fight Al Qaeda, which they’ve turned on US troops, and conspired with warlords who betrayed us. The saddest part though, and the strongest proof of our lack of commitment, is that we let the Afghan government prevent us from destroying poppy fields, which finance terrorism and buy weapons to kill US soldiers, because we didn’t want to upset the locals or create hardship for poppy farmers. Truly sad.
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In Afghanistan, is it even a stalemate? The various factions/cliques arrayed against the Government suddenly make patty-cake and play nice? The Goverment and it’s Protector allies reduced to isolated pockets while the opposition runs the roost?
The thing about Aliens is, they’re Aliens. How do you negotiate with Aliens?
1968.....”We've been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American leaders...
Both in Vietnam and Washington to have faith any longer in the silver linings they find in the darkest clouds. For it seems now more certain than ever, that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate. To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past.
To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, if unsatisfactory conclusion. On the off chance that military and political analysts are right, in the next few months we must test the enemy's intentions, in case this is indeed his last big gasp before negotiations.
But it is increasingly clear to this reporter that the only rational way out then will be to negotiate, not as victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to defend democracy, and did the best they could.
This is Walter Cronkite. Good night.”
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We invaded Afghanistan in 2001 to irradicate the Taliban because they had provided safe harbor for al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden and a base from which to attack the US on 9/11.
After eighteen years, billions in treasure, many buckets of blood, and PTSD broken spirits, we sit and negotiate with the Taliban over our withdrawal, and ask that they please play nice with their fellow citizens.
The Taliban are stronger than the day we invaded.
Afghanistan is a bigger mess than the day we invaded.
There is a perverse lottery; who is going to be the last US soldier to die in Afghanistan?
All for nothing.
Nothing.
At home the government is crippled over a useless, wholly symbolic border wall.
Nothing.
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When 4 were killed in Bengazi, the Republicans screamed "Lock Her Up". When 4 were killed in Syria Trump salutes the fallen.
Wthout advice from experienced diplomats and military, the President declares he is pulling out of Afghanistan. Then he tells the Taliban that the Speaker of the House is on the way to visit troops.
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@rixax
Name two big shot Democrats who have called for a termination of the madness. Biden? Sanders?
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@stewart bolinger good point.
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The USA rightly supported the Afghan resistance against Russia military occupation. Finally Russia left!
Now, they still occupy Afghanistan though their efforts to build a democratic state look vain and useless after nearly 18 years of a military and financial effort costing billion of dollars, withdrawn to more urgent social needs.
Unless, remaining in Afghanistan matches imperial aspirations and mark a military presence in-between Pakistan and Iran. This way, Afghanistan becomes a logistic, security basis for future military exercises.
Overall this looks like an endless story.
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Not a good place for peacekeepers. The government should keep record of who is over there. I know the phone system or cell phones are off limits with the peacekeepers or military. ref: Gloria Wheeler who was on facebook from Houston looking for a future husband...
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Well, the United States has a mess on their hands, don’t they?
Americans killed in Syria, the Taliban creating an uproar in Afghanistan leaving more dead and wounded, North Korea has no intention of decreasing missiles, Russian interference with our democracy sorrounds us. And here at home, over a month of careless US government shutdown, leaving thousands of Americans penniless, and even with scanty healthcare and educational resources dependent on government funding.
In the meanwhile, we have a leader in his kingdom, who has no clue what he’s doing, with his family members at the helm, living in luxury paid by his subjects’ tax money, dictating “solutions” affecting our country and the world. We have experienced generals who couldn’t take it anymore, basically, and left this inept administration, and many others who have followed suit - just gone home rather than participate in this folly in DC anymore. We have intelligence agencies who turn over the hands that lead them continuously. Emptiness of support is what we have.
This country should not be an entity to become a joke. We are people. We are resources. We have many who have sacrificed.
Yet we are treated as slaves, treated as pawns, treated as hostages in Donald Trump’s world. It’s the perfect time for those who despise us to not only take advantage of us, but to create chaos, harm, and death. You think the cruelty of the world out there isn’t watching the timing?
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@MIMA:The joke is on the folks who believe in endless interventions and nation building in far off places that don't want to be like us. The Neocon folks don't want these endless wars to end else what would they do if not for war. Why are we in Afghanistan after almost 20 years? please advise since who are we to enforce our culture over there. The Taliban are no threat to us and ran the country better before we wrongly attacked them. Why are we in Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Nigeria using horrendous missiles against people posing zero threat to us. If a country is a threat to us we should get proper Constitutional declaration against that country and not abuse the 2001 War resolution having nothing to do with today's events. Trump has always wanted out of these evil interventions but the McCain Neocons put out these phony statements like 'if we leave ISIS will come back' etc..
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@MIMA...Trump has been a 15.9 Richter Scale earthquake and resultant tsunami. Just two years ago, Syria, Afghanistan, North Korea and Russia - not to mention Yemen - were wonderful tourist destinations. Just two sort years ago healthcare and education were the government funded envy of the civilized world. Back then, generals were combat boot tough gladiators who could take on any contingency...Then Trump stole an election from the most qualified person to ever run for President and he rigged the Electoral College to seal the deal. In just two interminable years he has enslaved, pawned and hostaged us...Let's all pray that our Allies in NATO rescue us while there is still a shred of democrazy left.