Why weren’t any photos of the outdated kitchens and bathrooms included in the article?
Really great real estate porn. A great escape from a dreary winters day. Thanks !
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Americans spend big bucks to make old things look new, and new things look old.
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Not mentioned here is that the supply of luxury apartments, built all over NYC but especially in once rejected areas of the city such as the Financial District or the Lower East Side have eaten away at the buyers who once chose the UES.
The rich young family with family money, say a tech entrepreneur and her plastic surgeon husband, 32 years old, do not hanker after Mrs. Wadsworth Lexington Hope Fairmount's floral papered, 18th Century styled six-room apartment in the east 70s. Nor do they need that quorum of elderly co-op board members asking for every personal, financial and blood test proving eligibility.
They want that glistening, glass, 70-story-tall building designed by some name architect with hot yoga lobby, pool on roof and gym underneath, with drones delivering drinks and food to their 59th Floor abode.
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Did I miss something on the map of 778 Park in the link to the classified? I didn’t see any guest bathrooms outside the three bedrooms! Did I miss something???
@Sam It's possible the floorpan is wrong, but it definitely isn't showing any guest bath or powder room, just the ones in the bedrooms. And closets are few and small. So that's 2 reasons it needs a gut reno!
NYC is full of the wealthy who have an "aspirational" lifestyle, it seems. They may aspire to it, but most of us do not.
I personally have a "realistic" lifestyle, and it's worked well for me for my entire adult life.
I laugh out loud at the ridiculous, trendy oval bathtubs that preside in solitary splendor in the middle of bathrooms; how quickly they'll look as dated as avocado-colored appliances! (Not to mention how uncomfortable they are.) It's all just high-end "ticky-tacky," IMO.
Good luck to those who have multi-millions to buy a fixer-upper; you all also have the $$$ to live elsewhere for a year or two while the apartment is gutted. I would NOT trade places with you!
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I live on the very edge of an expensive neighbourhood, where buyers have gone beyond merely ripping out kitchens and bathrooms. Now they rip down the entire building...
Houses built in brick and stone to the designs of top architects in the 1910s are rubble, replaced by minimansions. These are showier-looking houses built of plywood, with cement-coloured stone facing (on the front side of the house only).
What is it about buying pricey real estate that makes people park their brains ?
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The reason no one wants these apartments any more is because the coop boards are sadistic and the maintenances are outrageous. You are paying to be tortured. No thanks.
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Here's a newsflash: If you can afford something that costs in the 3.5 million dollar range, a discount of $200,000 is irrelevant.
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I thought these apartments were where Russian and South American oligarchs were sheltering their I’ll gotten gains, leaving many of the buildings largely vacant. I think it would be a little off putting not having any neighbors, or maybe oddly romantic.
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@Patrick: Nope, the buildings you're referring to are almost entirely NEW construction, much of it on or near 57th Street - and they're CONDOS.
Most oligarchs won't be applying to buy a Park Avenue co-op - where they have to disclose their finances in great detail!
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I mean, who really wants to live on the Upper East Side any more? The lifeblood of the city is elsewhere. This trend is about more than a soft market.
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I will admit to watching fixer upper shows on HGTV; however, the renovations there are usually of bad trends or truly slum-like properties.
Usually, the aspiring pair of buyers walks through the choices and quacks the buzzwords: hardwood, character, stainless steel appliances, shaker cabinets, open concept, bonus room, etc. And the "designers" are always looking to make things "pop." It should be a banned word.
Unfortunately, the norm for renovation television is bits and pieces dressed up for the designer's reveal and the buyer's first party. They never go back in 3 months and see what it looks like or how it is functioning or wearing.
Ironically, most of the stuff they put in is going to be in the "before" picture of future shows. My guess is that the dizzying horizontal mosaic back splashes are going to be the tile counters of tomorrow. They should smash just as well.
Gut rehab in a coop; the two words do not even go together. Gut rehab is for a decrepit building, fixer upper may be for a neglected home, and having some work done sounds more like it for a coop.
The best words for any renovation are appropriately and smartly solving the issues of living there today. Words sorely missing from most renovation conversations. Homes are a place to live, not to speculate on. Indeed, coop boards exist to prevent exactly this kind of flipper nonsense.
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Wow, 20% off many millions of dollars! How come so many New Yorkers won't jump at these opportunities? Easy - we don't have the 80% still needed, either.
Also, while the idea of a fixer upper is generally not a bad idea, it also usually means one has to be able to pay for two places at the same time: the one that is being renovated, and another one to live in while the renovation goes on. Again, not really a solution for most.
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I would only buy pre-war, renovations notwithstanding!
Nothing, not even 15 CPW, compares; not the room size, not the moldings (pre-war plaster, post-war composite), charm, formal dining rooms, quality of construction (wall/floor thickness), layout, and no sheet rock.
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After you consider 2-3 years of maintaining (while renovating) an apartment that is unlivable, the nuanced and sometimes expensive demands of a coop board, and contractors that see $$$ when they hear the address, well, the "deal" may not be so great anymore.
They are a "deal" only compared to the last few years when the market operated with what Alan Greenspan once termed in a different context "irrational exuberance".
Those days are coming to a close very dramatically. Give it another year and some more economic and political chaos. You ain't seen nothin yet!
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One may get a bargain on the purchase price but the monthly maintenance for Park Ave and Fifth Ave pre-war coops are steep steep steep.
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Lower prices sound appealing until you view the maintenance fees - and realize there are no local shops selling everyday items.
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I am a frequent peruser of Streeteasy. Fun fantasies for free. I am often surprised at the number of reasonably ( for NYC) priced apartments available in Beekman, Sutton Place and the East End Ave area. Prices are clearly coming down. Now all I need is to win the lottery.
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Awesome!
I'm in. Now I just need to find $3.5 million and we're set:)
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I know, such great deals! But you’d need much much more than that to get approved by the board, to renovate, to pay maintenance fees, etc.
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The newspaper of record should call this section "celebrity investments" - and be done with it. For those of us who moved away - permanently - from the 5 boros, these listings are pure hilarity, and make me miss Joan Rivers - no more, no less.
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location. location.location. Always a a bargain in retrospect, tho answering to a co op board would make me cringe
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I wonder what percentage of NYT readers immediately grab their checkbooks when they hear of a “bargain” fixer-upper going for a cool $7 million. Living anywhere in the city is obviously expensive but conflating “affordable” with a multi-million dollar price tag is just silly. Most people probably read a piece like this with the same head set they have while reading fantasy or science fiction.
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Still overpriced. The buyers of these coops are literally dying. You need to be an American citizen wasp non-celebrity with no kids at home, no pets, no sense of financial privacy, and $30 million in a US bank account who is willing to let a bunch of lonely, busybody octogenarians tell you that you can only flush the toilet between 9am and 5pm. All this to love a remote part of the city. Good grief. I'll just buy a townhouse.
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Correction: "to live in a remote part" - - as 92nd and Park is.
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@Patient
There is something that you say. I was looking at a place in White Plains and the old lady mafia stopped me cold. Every time I went there to check something or discuss the deal, they were watching me and stopping me in the hall and asking questions. Rather creepy.
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Remote.
You mean, near excellent schools (both public and private), hospitals, museums, a tidy shopping strip like Madison Avenue that actually has a good bookshop, even Lexington Avenue with its own shopping and the 92nd Street Y, and Central Park.
Okay.
Unless you were being ironic, in which case I apologize.
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Out of touch. $3 Million and decrepit? $7 million and needs a gut renovation? Real estate brokers are even better than the government at spending other people’s money.
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Prices have a lot further to fall, especially in these older buildings. I think decrepit units will start to look appealing and move when they’re no longer subject to the mansion tax, when they sell for less than $1 million. Think that can’t happen? Watch what happens when they sit empty for 5 years.
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And, you still have to pay the outrageous taxes.
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If you have to finance this type of apartment you can't afford it.
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Needs gut renovation? Seriously?
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No thanks; labor is expensive and one must move out and live elsewhere during the rehab which can take forever.
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Someone who lives on Park Ave. complained to me that nearby stores were closing and there was no longer a convenient place to buy food. Neighborhood amenities do figure into apartment prices.
It is quite true that older apartments might be viewed as being obsolete. The formal dining room now seems less attractive than an eat in kitchen. The tiny staff rooms have often been combined into more practical space. However, the grandeur of the galleries and main rooms is wonderful. I never cared for the floor to ceiling glass exterior walls that are now popular in new construction. They might provide views, but there is such a thing as excessive light.
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@David Floor-to-ceiling glass exterior walls, which are the default new construction in Seattle, mean there is such thing as an excessive view too. And we're not talking about the pretty mountain and bay views their websites boast of.
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@David not to mention the insane waste of energy these glass walls imply.
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This is a good piece on Park and Fifth Ave Co-ops. These apartments are generously proportioned and quite livable. This UES market has seen a decline in interest by younger wealthy buyers who seem to prefer luxury Condos with many amenities and little in the was of financial disclosures by a Condo board. Many of these buyers seek to live in downtown Tribeca or along the Westside where they work and socialize. But what is out of favor with a Park Avenue address right now is the potential for an excellent buyer's opportunity. With that said, buyers can get an excellent value without looking at gut renovating a coop. I recommend they only look at renovated apartment that simply need minor changes that are more easily approved by a board and decor. That is more realistic and achievable if the buyer is flexible in the building's location and amenities. The UES is quite convenient, very close to Central Park and best private schools. History show that Manhattan neighborhoods go through cycles and a buy here will reward those in the future. Quality never goes out of favor.
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@realist
So true....remember the savings and loan crisis, Resolution Trust debacle. Luxury real estate in Manhattan was in a shambles. I still kick myself for walking away from the 3 b/3ba Park Ave gem with the full gallery foyer. I believe it was priced around 1.2m in the favored museum blocks. What a deal. Maybe the younger buyers will understand the power of the formal dining room as a way to make deep friendships, create meaningful philanthropy and simply advance one’s professional career. Few will turn down an invitation to break bread or sip wine in a lovely Park Ave, Sutton or Beekman apartment.
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@realist
Nor does scarcity There are only so many of these places. Last year I was talking to someone who collects and deals in early American antiques. He's been getting bargain prices when he buys because of the interest in Mid-Century Modern and the declining interest in objects made in the 1800's. He knows he's making a good investment and the interest will come around again because as he said "they aren't making any more of these"
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@sjs
Famous last words. You know what else they aren’t making any more of? Buggy whips and buyers who want these apartments. At least not at these prices.
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These numbers make my head spin. Working as a real estate appraiser a few decades ago, I always found that the fixer upper, if fixed up, did not provide much, if any, profit for the purchaser. Renovated kitchens and baths never brought an increase that would cover the costs of renovation. A large cost is the time it takes to renovate a place properly in Manhattan. So many rules and restrictions. I guess, according to the article, in the upper end of the market, the numbers don't crunch the same way. Also, I currently pay attention to slightly lower end of the market that I sometimes dream of buying into. I would say the one and two bedroom coop/condo market in Manhattan has not seen much of any price reduction in the last few years.
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The renovated baths and kitchens did not bring in a good return probably because they were over-the-top ugly and historically inappropriate.
It doesn't cost that much to put in new subway tiles if necessary, an Americast tub, octagonal floor tiles, and a pedestal sink into a bathroom. That's assuming they all need replacing.
Original kitchens have beautiful cabinets and drawers. Strip them or paint them and put in new appliances. And keep those old brass pulls.
When you start moving pipes to install a kitchen island, prices soar.
There are ways to make or renew beautiful, utilitarian spaces without spending a lot.
Of course, maintenance fees will always go up, as will the cost of tipping, at Christmas, all the maintenance people and doormen.
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When I hear the term "gut renovation", I cringe. These are gorgeous old apartments! If they need work, it is typically electrical and plumbing. Even the plumbing can often be restored with out gutting - tubs can very nicely be re-glazed and look terrific. Original faucets can be re-plated, usually in polished nickel.
I have a friend who lives in one of these apartments and we both know that someone will tear out her amazing butler's pantry someday - it has it's original huge cabinets.
No one has dishes anymore - just the small stack of all white dishes used everyday. They don't entertain at home anymore. Heck, they don't even prepare food at home but they will gut that kitchen and put in one that costs $250,000 minimum so the nanny can microwave something for the children. A trophy kitchen to go with the trophy wife and children and trophy life.
I despair...
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Butler pantries are my favorite part of old-house museums. Tall glass cabinets, old brass pulls and tiny rim locks, the plethora of plates and stemware. . . . Then there are copper or soapstone sinks, or galvanized-metal sinks -- all fun to look at. Very practical whether there's a butler or not.
(It would take more money than any country has to stop famines and massacres in less developed nations, and so people's saying that it's better to feed the poor than to preserve a historical building seems beside the point.)
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@India
Look I have had some of my best dinner parties faking it....take out food heated and beautifully presented in great serving dishes and platters works well. No one cares as long as it is plentiful and washed down with decent beverages.
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@India
Funny you should mention the butler's pantry. My husband and I are planning our next house just a few days ago I sold him on the idea of a modern butler's pantry behind a kitchen wall to share plumbing. (I proudly have lots of dishes, cookware, bakeware, and kitchen gadgets I use regularly but not daily). The efficiency appealed to him. In it we plan to have a freezer, a stacking washer/dryer combo in a small closet to reduce noise, a utility sink, and storage for tableware, dishware, and other items and foods we don't use too often. It will be walk-through and make the most of every inch of vertical wall space. It will have durable but nice shelving that is far less costly than the prime and more expensive kitchen cabinetry and will save valuable counter workspace for the kitchen.
I never thought I'd want a smaller kitchen, but when we consider what we ourselves do there on a daily basis, if we designed a larger kitchen we'd just be adding expensive storage space. Lessons we learned from a home we designed and built in 2003, where I just wanted a larger kitchen than our previous one and ended up rarely using the items stored in half the new semi-cabinets, and are learning now in the 1980s home we're living in now that has a smaller kitchen which sadly has a lot of space I simply can't use. Less is never more if it's not done well.
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Maybe having this kind of money changes one's standards on what counts as a fixer-upper or in need of a gut-renovation. I wouldn't know. I certainly don't see anything in these photos that suggest disrepair or decrepitude, though. I'll offer 10% of list price and can guarantee the co-op board that no renovations will be done.
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As most Americans live paycheck to paycheck, I find this article absurdly excessive.
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@Mickey----Welcome to Trump's America.
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@bobbrum It might come as news to most Americans that their money troubles started only 2 years ago.
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@bobbrum I suppose America's socio-economic disparity has only existed until now? Really! I don't like the man but must I be reminded of him in every single comment, or does it just seem that way? People have lived paycheck to paycheck for decades, and Trump is president because millions have lost hope. It is sad. The Times has largely an affluent readership, judging by its advertisements and luxury real estate offerings. People are desperate, hence Trump. It's not "Trump's America" for it is OUR America and has been for a very long time. Solutions, anyone? Apologies for being off topic.
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