If Pence inherited the job, Pelosi would handle him until 2020.
138
Never forget, Pence was on track to be totally humiliated in his attempt at re-election until Manafort and Flynn, both convicted felons, put him on the ticket with Trump. Impeach Trump, sure, what are we waiting for? But Pence needs to go to. After all, does the country need to replace a narcissistic conman with a theocratic conman?
185
Don't be so sure, Gail. Pence lied just as much as the other Trumpies already convicted of doing so and will go down with the ship.
115
Oh Gail, you make me smile. Thank you.
47
There are, at the very least, 5 instances of justice being obstructed by Pence.( See U.S.A. Today 11/15/2017 article by Maureen Groppe; entitled: 5 times V.P. Pence's statements came back to bite him.).
After Pence, is President Pelosi!
PROSECUTE RUSSIAGATE!
101
Careful what you wish for. You may get it.
9
Ms. Collins did not mention Mitt or his dog. I am disappointed.
24
Mike Pence would be a breath of stale air.
140
A. He wouldn’t be a room alone with anyone, male or female. Next issue?
B. Is this really about Karen (aka ‘Mother’)? Teaching grade school? She wasn’t elected by anyone for any job. She’s trying to keep busy outside of politics.
What if Pence followed some traditional version of Islam? I’ve been to many countries where a male does not touch or shake a woman’s hand. So, you are saying Americans can only elect Christians or Jews in the future? What happens if someone runs that does follow 2,000 year-old gender rules — like millions in Indonesia, Bangladesh... ?
22
I have never understood the GOP preoccupation about sex... it’s like they have nothing else to think about!
133
Doesn't M. Pence tell lies? i.e. meeting with Russians and saying he didn't.
72
Cannot separate “church and state.” Similar to “dominionist.” Every government position should be filled with a Christian. Not good.
54
Me, I'm hoping Pence has by now been implicated in some of Trump's crimes and we can dump them both.
Three cheers for President Pelosi!!!
144
Ayatolah Pence, separation of church and state?
61
Pence calls himself Christian while stomping all over the words of Jesus. At least Trump's dishonesty is out in the open.
Every time I see Mr. Pence with his fake face I think he is seeing himself as superior and God like. Or maybe God.
109
Gail, what do you mean about a pet-free White House. As long a Pence is there he'll be Trump's Pet.
96
I usually try to write with a bit of humor to blunt the outrage, but I’ll make an exception for Pence since he’s, um, exceptional.
It’s rarely discussed, but Mike Pence is one of those Apocalypse-In-My-Lifetime types who believes in his heart that the best use of his time on this planet is to accelerate the Second Coming, whether that be through catastrophic climate change due at least in part to his vehement denial of it in the first place, a perceived gross animosity towards anybody not lily-white “Christian” like himself (News Flash: President Pence announces Holy Crusade against the Infidels in our Midst), promoting our God-given right to use up as many resources as possible (I guess since our kids and grandkids won’t need them anyway after the Rapture), etc.
There have been a multitude of delusional religious fanatics throughout the ages—starting not long after Jesus was hung on a cross—who believed the Second Coming or End of the World would take place in their lifetime. Every single period of Anno Domini history has them. What they all share(d) in common, besides fantastical thinking, is a gross arrogance that they are so important that the most consequential event in human (not Earth’s—this is strictly an anthropomorphic construct) history would involve them personally. Pence is one of them—and Jesus was not. Says all you need to know about the guy.
121
A bit ironic that Coulter would support someone who, by his own admission, wouldn't sit in a room alone with her.
And as for those conversations around the dinner table, I could easily see Pence supporting a nuclear holocaust, if it meant he thought he would see his god sooner. To fundamentalists such as Pence, the cares of this world are of no import when compared to his idea of eternal bliss in his heaven.
Not exactly my idea of someone to put in charge of the cares of this world.
61
What will Mike Pence look at when the Donald is gone?
51
Mike Pence can not even read his Bible properly. For exemple he is again same sex marriage because he said that marriage is between a man and a woman according to the Bible.
Here the definition of marriage according to the Bible:
1)Marriage is a union between one man and one or more women;
2)man has the right to take concubines;
3)marriage is valid only if the wife is a virgin, if she is not, she will be stone to death and the marriage will not be valid;
4)Inter-faith marriage is forbidden and the death penalty should be the punishment.
Mike Pence may not be able to read the Bible properly but the Bible is a source of guidance the Vice President only a heart beat away from the Presidency.
38
The cardboard cutout of Pence has more going for it than this faus christian. When they wear their religious ideology on their sleeve, beware of what percolates below.
44
Pence has no charisma, he could not get elected by himself--it would require an act of god.
Impeach #45 & live with Pence for the remainder of the term.
22
With evangelicals, there is no " religion aside". It is their only consideration in making decisions because their God or their interpretation of God is right. Anyone who does not know this, does not know a devout evangelical. It will be very scary times if they accomplish their vision of America. For anyone who thinks it's quaint to call Karen, mother, doesn't know an educated full throttle Christian conservative. The conversion of us all is their ultimate goal. They do believe we were founded as a Christian nation and do not believe there should be separation of church and state. Of course, it is all done out of of their love for us so that we will be ushered into heaven instead of hell. I believe, their alliance with DJT guarantees them a place in the big fire pit.
35
Extremist Christian evangelicals believe the Earth is approaching the End Times. They acknowledge Donald Trump and the mayhem that surrounds him as a part of God's plan, steering our world full throttle towards the Rapture. They would be delighted for the devout Mike Pence to assume the presidency.
55
After Trump, It’s — The Handmaid’s Tale… with Ofmike, Praise Be, et al.
29
Luckily, He would bring the Seven Mountains Domionist mandate into the Oval Office. Bring Godly change to the nation by reaching its seven spheres, or mountains, of societal influence.
The goal to transform with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, these seven facets of society must be reached: Religion, Family,Education, Government, Media, Arts & Entertainment and Business.
A true believer is the second fiddle, keeping the bullhorn on a Nancy leash a lesser of bad choices?
4
Pence always refers to himself as a Christian, a Conservative and a Republican. He somehow forgets the American part. If anyone else said and did this they would be excoriated or ordered to reparative therapy by the usual suspects.
39
The Russians MUST have a tape of Pence doing something compromising. (Why else would he have agreed to be Veep with Trump?)
21
I thought Pence was impeachment insurance even before the election.
33
Nancy Reagan's was nothing compared to Pence's adoring gaze. Should Melania be worried? Could it be that Trump's devout Christian ideals, so often espoused and on view, have proven to be too seductive and swept Indiana's silver fox off his feet? Clearly, "Thou shalt not lie" is no longer one of the Ten Commandments in Pence's playbook. In fact, not a few of those Biblical dictum's have been conveniently ignored for political expediency's sake. Pence, on his way to losing the governorship, needed a job.
30
Let's not be too hard on the guy, he is for cigarettes.
6
What did Mike Pence know about collusion, collaboration, conspiracy and cooperation with the Russians and Vladimir Putin in order to get himself and Donald Trump elected and when did he know it and what did he do or not do about it?
21
The bit about not sharing a meal with any female who’s not his wife without someone else present: As a man in ministry, I do that as well - in order to avoid ANY hint of impropriety. In this day and age, one allegation ruins a career... although maybe not in politics ;-)
10
Beware the Vice who passionately declares himself the king of the
anti-Vices.
Bottom line: The only change won't be the puppet in the Oval, just the puppeteer. From Putin to the Kochs.
18
But Pence is not "crazy". That is, he is not a Malignant Narcissist.
5
So, any truth to the rumor that, if he ascends to the Presidency, Mike Pence would replace "Hail to the Chief" with "Onward Christian Soldiers?" One thing for sure, if Pence does become President, at least he could claim that his prayers have been answered.
13
If Pence were president, he would likely be a puppet for the Koch brothers and his slogan would be "What's Good For Koch Industries Is Good For America"
25
A “president” Pence would be completely comfortable in all regards as the leader of red ugly theocracy portrayed in “The Handmaid’s Tale”.
23
Your point being that Pence will radiate morality and along with 'Mother' clean up the swamp? Anyone who stands behind a thrice-divorced man who cheats on his wife, who lies with every breath and is destroying this country ought to be shown the door. And Pence will be---before he undoes all the freedoms that his religion doesn't agree with. I particularly like the swipe at Catholics. Take a poll Mike. Many public servants and career legislators are Catholic. I wish you many multi-colored rainbows in your retirement.
are Catholic
18
Given the choice....take 'the Donald'...
Admittedly, Trump is a self-absorbed knucklehead. Pence, on the other hand, is a VERY dangerous religious zealot.
Trump's actions hurt people because he doesn't have the capacity or attention span to think things all the way thru...Pence hurts people because he can..
34
From the post-impeachment musical Mother, May I?, the scene where the Vice President reminds the GOP base, swing voters not least, driving senators' fingers to the daily winds and currently supporting his chief of the mixed stakes of defection:
♫ If you change your minds
I'm the next in line ... ♫
7
More important than what we Americans might make of a President Pence is, what would Putin think?
And he’d be fine with it. After all, Pence was Manafort’s suggestion.
16
Pence would govern as an Evangelical Christian, which would be disastrous for America. We've seen how out of touch with reality these folks are for the past two years. Their dogged, rabid support for an immoral President is based on his anti-abortion and racists beliefs, not the brick and mortar that created America. I'm suspicious of any man that addresses his wife as mother.
30
The Mike Pence described here by Ms. Collins sounds like someone we used to say was 'straight-laced', by which was usually meant that his moral standards were above ours, something we might like to say about a president--but that's not the point. Do I detect here (I think I do) that Ms. Collins is warming-up to President Trump? She almost praises his restraint in world affairs, his unwillingness to intervene everywhere willy-nilly, suggesting that at least "he wouldn't bomb anyone" (except perhaps Nancy Pelosi). Is she saying that we're in good hands with President Trump? Well, if that isn't a recommendation. . . She seems to use Mr. Pence's high moral and social standards, and Mr. Trump's statesmanlike caution as reasons to support him against the threat of impeachment--Gail Collins as an anti-impeachment stalwart? You think? Ms. Collins is making progress, she might even be a closet Trump voter. Or, is this the first NYT trial balloon to check wind direction before switching sides?
1
Pelosi and Schumer, please note: We Support The Fence for Pence.
13
Oh, no is right...
Pence is boring, but I've had enough of Trump's drama and P. T. Barnum act. I cannot focus when Pence speaks. His monotone voice just drones on and I become distracted. His fawning over Trump is ceaseless.
Oh, no!!! A fête worse than death...
16
I love Collins' work. Loud guffaws.
5
Gail, you've got it right! Everywhere I've been (here in red, red Idaho) when there is impeachment talk, it always comes down to, "yes, but then we'd get Pence!"
Probably says something about the company I keep, but I've never heard anyone say they like Pence (or Mother) and refer to him as a "sneaky little snake in the grass."
A dream would be if Mueller has the goods on Pence too and we can get rid of both of them....President Pelosi! Wouldn't that be a killer?
33
Conclusion: It really makes no difference if you are a man or a woman or a Lindsey Graham.
17
President Pence? Think “The Handmaid’s Tale”.
20
As the De Farges cackle after every Buzz Feed style "scoop" (anyone remember Dan Rather? Figure The Don's defender's will leave some IED's in the middle of the easy roads...) cooler heads need to consider things like- Pence can shore up the GOP. Indeed, may be able to win in 2020, after the De Farge's have done their munchkin dance to 'dingdong the witch is dead'. Heckfar- Carter barely won in '76!
& to take the thought ad absurbam- Pence could surf a metooist wave offering a paternal protection, turning the Handmaiden novel into a sort of Catechism .. it is all about separation to control lust (and get women back into their "organic" position...kirchekuchekitchen-wise). Be careful the unintended consequence.
If The Don is running in 2020 the Dems should ride the wave well enough, even if he is challenged by a GOPer from "the center", whatever that is, who then goes Indy in the main event (after all, the "centerist" in 2016 did help bring out down ticket votes to let GOPs hold The Hill, a thing to worry about some...).
But how does Ann Coulter feel about a guy who won't meet with her because thinks she can't be trusted because he is so attractive to her or any women …. or he believes that he is such a sex crazy guy that he can't be trusted to be alone with her. (hmmm)..
Trump & Pence are proof that there is a weakness in the system of having each (Republican) citizen get a vote regardless of passing a reality test.
11
Gail Collins is right. Sometimes it's better to stick with the Devil that you know rather than the Devil you don't know.
9
Pence is one of the undead.
There is an alien being inside Pence and his wife(?).
Sunday’s must be so happy In the Pence home.
Ok. Open the morphine drip to full.
16
As a related aside, let’s remember U.S. State Television (you know who I mean), barely mentioned the troop deaths in Syria. It would’ve been SO apropos if they’d been focusing on Benghazi.
6
It's Hobson's Choice.
4
For all that Mike Pence fawns over Trump, and contorts himself to defend Donald, the VP no doubt fantasizes daily about that line of succession...
9
I consider Mike Pence, who has elevated being bought and paid for to an art form, much more dangerous than the Orange Pustule - simply because he can use full sentences and deliver plausible lies.
18
Impeach Trump at your own peril democrats. Mike Pence is Trump's insurance policy.
8
You missed George Will’s comment: “Pence is the most repulsive legislator.”
13
There's that old saying from the Devil: Watch what you wish for. You might just get it.
4
On the plus side Gail, Pence hasn't yet put the snake, dog, cat or rabbit on top of the car for a family road trip.
14
Doesn't say much for the good voters of Indiana that they were apparently quite content to send a placeholder to the House for 6 consecutive terms, at a cost to voters from all the states of $1 million and change. It must be boring to live in Indiana.
But, even with this promotion, Pence is still just a glorified placeholder. Independent thought and action are not only not required, they are forbidden. Absolute obeisance, on the other hand, is the only requirement.
Which brings up the question: How does a guy whose political career path thus far has been as a paper weight-cum-gopher have any idea what to do if he is suddenly saddled with real responsibility. This guy is in over his head when the water is only 1" deep. Lord (and, lordy, I hope it's not Pence's) help us.
14
Mother....hmmm. What would Anthony Perkins have to say about that?
9
Trump and Pence were both fraudulently elected with help from Russia. They both need to go!
21
I prefer and expect President Pelosi.
16
You know, it's great fun -= and it generates a lot of mouse clicks - to poke fun at Trump and Pence and the Republicans in general - but - prepare yourselves.
It won't be too long before the rest of the country is laughing in complete derision and contempt at New York City for having actually elected to a public office, a dimwit like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who actually believes in the tenets of communism.
And then, you'll have to work long and hard to make up excuses for her continue presence on the public stage.
2
Mr. Pence and his " Mother " are the epitome of hatred , bigotry , misogyny , and homophobia , all nicely wrapped into the words of the Old Testament and the Book of Leviticus.
They call themselves Christians , yet ignore the dictates of Christ that calls for all human kind to be treated with respect and dignity.
They subscribe instead to the God of the Terrible Swift Sword and discriminate against all who do not conform to their fundamentalist beliefs.
The nation is forced to choose between a mendacious and classless dictator and the sycophant of a medieval belief in a theocracy that would have flourished in the Middle Ages.
MAGA.
22
I've notice a trend in both the Democratic and Republican choices for VP. Democrats select someone steady, that would keep the country stable during the transition, someone who could run for President. Republicans select an VP as an insurance policy against be assassinated or impeached, someone who could never be elected President. A VP so much more horrible than the President that no one, not even a crazy person, would ever want them as Chief Executive of the USA.
Republican Democrat
Pence Biden
Chaney Gore
Quayle Mondale
14
Not a fan of Pence's politics in the least, but at least he's not an international embarrassment because of his behavior. I don't see him being particularly worse than George W., who seems not so horrible or stupid in light of Trump.
4
Trump's brilliance is that he picked a VP who is possibly more despicable than himself assuring any impeachment attempt as futile and ill-considered. Sad.
18
While I share your distaste for Pence, he'd be tied to the Trump record and subject to the constraints of dealing with a Democractic House of Representatives. He'd be a lame duck, and unlikely to be able to hold the nation hostage to his whims as Trump has. That said, impeachment may be a perilous venture, so maybe our best bet is to wait Trump out untl 2020.
9
While I take your point Ms. Collins; right now NOTHING could be worse than Trump. Oh sure; Pence seems like a character out of a bygone era; but really he would not be all that hard to deal with; compared with the raging misogynist, egomaniac; xenophobic, and lieing demagogue you have in the White House now. Not only that; the G.O.P. denied their bull in a china shop bully; would be hard pressed to defend Pence the way they have shielded Trump the last 2 years. At some point they have to start looking at 2020; and realize Pence would truly be a disaster in the next federal election. The demographics are continually favoring the Democratic base in pure numbers; and the REpublicans know it. At some point this Alt-Right "last stand" will become just that. They are at some point going to have to either evolve or die. I am fine with either option.
13
This 'no woman in private' rule is just plain weird. Is it because he knows he can't control himself if he were ever alone in a room with any female? Or is it because he's afraid said female would attack him? Whatever the reason, it's weird and creepy.
27
One positive thing -- and about the only positive thing -- to say about Pence's various views is this: Unfortunately, his observation that he would not have a dinner alone with a woman is something that resonates with a lot of men these days, though not for the same reasons as Pence. The predations of sociopathic men such as Weinstein, Moonves, Trump, et als obviously are real and there needs to be a complete restructuring (for lack of a better word) of our world from top to bottom in order to ensure that such sociopathic sexual deviants have no ability to make women their victims. However, the reality of the present #metoo environment is that a man who is accused of misconduct is presumed guilty until proven innocent. As a recent Op-Ed by Ms. Bazelon pointed out, there is not even a veneer of due process by our universities for young men accused of sexual assault. Any man, especially a superior, who goes out to dinner with a co-worker alone these days would have to be the stupidest man on the face of the planet because of the possibility he might be accused of some impropriety. Women have to acknowledge that there are some women who lie about alleged sexual misconduct for various reasons, either deliberately because they are the male equivalent of a sociopath or because they simply are mentally unbalanced. The vast majority of men are not sexual predators, but all of us are being tarred by the broad brush of the Weinsteins, Trumps, etc. of this world.
5
In his book "The Scandalous Gospel of Jesus" the late chaplain of Harvard University, Rev. Peter Gomes observed: "It's very difficult to preach the gospel as Jesus did without giving offense, and the world has been filled with people perfectly capable of being offended.... We know what gives offense, which is probably why we spend so much time talking about sex and Jesus spent so much time talking about money." I suspect the Pences talk so much about sex because they don't want to talk about the issues that relate to money ... the injustices and unfairness ... the terrible costs of medications ... the environment sold to the carbon industry ... the poor wages while CEO wealth grows exponentially ... the money Trump earns as president ... Yes, talk about sex and ignore all the ramifications of money. The Pences really should not be so self-righteous.
17
There are 300,000,000 Americans who aren't as bad as Trump.
Mike Pence is one of them.
This is an extremely low bar.
20
This all brings into focus Pence’s absolute mendacity.
He has set pretty restrictive standards for himself, and yet licks the boots of a boss who flouts every one of Pence’s own rules and beliefs.
Therefore, he’s just as phony as any craven politician.
And God can see right through him,
31
Mike Pence is a creepy sycophant, not unlike the majority of Trump's cabinet. I'm almost tempted to say that Pence may be the best argument against impeachment. Then I wake up and contemplate the reality of the Trump presidency.
Guess I'd choose "creepy sycophant" over "clear and present danger." If it comes to that.
17
This guys career was saved by being put on the ticket. He was not going to win relection in Indiana. One term under his leadership? convinced people it was time to goin another direction...like maybe towards the 21st cetury.
16
Pence is awful - the Pences are awful - but they're not insane like Trump. Pence would make "W" seem moderate in his views on women and gays. I'll take Pence over Trump, with whatever return to "normalcy" he would bring to our government. With a Democratic House he won't be able to pass any vile legislation. Trump needs to be removed from office. The sooner the better.
11
I have thought plenty about Mike Pence. If Donald Trump is a narcissist and a crook, Pence is the Grand Inquisitor. I shudder whenever I see his bland, intense face.
I must, however, differ with the Times headline about the Pences' "hypocrisy." The Pences are not hypocrites: Their adherence to Christian evangelical preaching, with all its dogmatic bigotry, has been, for a very long time, out there for everyone to see.
8
If Trump was impeached and convicted, Pence would be an unpopular lame duck taking the helm of a disgraced government with maybe a year at most of his term remaining.
19
Right on the button. Keep Trump in office and then vote him out in '20. Pence would be an unmitigated disaster. An organized incompetent religious bigot. Image, for instance, who would be his Supreme Court nominee.
8
No human being could be worse than Trump.
9
Ok, sure, Pence does have some issues. But did he ever strap any of his pets to the top of his SUV while driving?
5
I’m sorry; I’ve been laboring under the apparently false impression that Ann “guts/no guts” “no wall, I prefer President Pence” Coulter was already Vice President. Silly me.
12
Sorry skippy. I worked for many years in the utility industry- one that he historically been dominated by males.
Well before the #MeToo movement I never dined or drank in private with female coworkers. One allegation of an impropriety and a man’s career is done. Even if there is not grounds for disciplinary action, that one allegation will result in a permanent cloud over a male employee.
Pence is only admitting what many male executives actually do.
So glad I retired 4 years ago!
3
Frankly, I feel his obsequiousness at that "Dear Leader" cabinet meeting alone should disqualify him from the presidency.
12
Pretty much Hobson’s choice, eh Gail? Keep a ventriloquist’s dummy in office, or replace him with a real dummy.
Both react to prompts from DeVos, the Mercers, the Wilks etc but Pence probably can remember what he is told, while Trump is inclined to wander. Do we want a guy who is committed to a “Christian” nation, or one that doesn’t know what that is, but still let’s the Theocrats tell him what to do?
Tough choice.
9
Thank you Republican Party.
5
Also, there’s the scary fact that Pence believes that “the God of the whole universe” wants Pence personally to be president of the U.S.
When a person has grand delusions of being so very special that God Himself has a stake in the matter, you have to wonder what Pence thinks God has in store for his ordained service.
It’ll be whatever is in Pence’s head, and may be unconnected with reality.
Not that I want Trump to stick around. Is there an “impeachment package” available?
21
The #GOPRussia has delayed/obstructed/colluded for so long to protect their president*, or more accurately get their justices and judges, that once Trump is impeached there will be just enough time for Pence to lose in 2020 and little else. So no blood no foul with him.
Pence and his wife are Christians. Christians should follow the teaching of Jesus Christ and of the Bible, which is considered the word of God. To do otherwise,to keep up with a continually changing culture,would be hypocritical.
Gail, surely you know that impeachment doesn’t mean removal from office. Bill Clinton was impeached. He remained president because he wasn’t then convicted by two thirds of the Senate.
The Republican majority will never remove Trump, because they fear his base of ignorant bigots, upon whom they rely for their own re-election.
So forget this musing about Pence. He will never be president.
7
Bush and his illegal invasion of Iraq killed thousands and thousands of people, made hundreds of thousands homeless, not to mention the legalized torture under his presidency, and yet, we never mentioned impeachment, nor were we obsessively mentioning these horrors in the media or at dinner parties.
What strange being we are with our priorities.
10
Pence quoting Alexander Hamilton on attributes of the president:
"’the Executive is a leading characteristic in the definition of good government... it is essential to the steady administration of the law.’ Hamilton also cautioned against long suffering where a President failed to meet this high standard, writing, ‘a feeble Executive implies a feeble execution of government. A feeble Executive is but another name for a bad executive; and a government ill-executed... must be proclaimed a bad government.’"
Wondering if he has passed his wisdom on ....
2
Shades of Spiro Agnew.
2
Mike Pence and his wife want religious freedom and small government but yet want to use the government to legislate their religious beliefs, on abortion for example. They don't believe in religious freedom for all. I, for one, want freedom from their religion.
This is the same Mike Pence that insisted in 2000 that smoking does not kill people and believes he is destined by God to be President. THAT is scary.
23
"Also, organizing a Bible study group for cabinet officials led by a pastor who has described Catholicism as a “false” religion and who believes it’s a sin for women with children to work outside the home."
I appreciate Gail's larger point but am stuck on the above sentence. This is 2019! And doesn't Ivanka, who has young children, work? Lots of sinning in that White House.
13
Mike Pence is a Neanderthal. Except that since he doesn’t believe in evolution he doesn’t believe Neanderthals existed. But seriously the United States’ explosive growth happened because we embraced scientific innovation. Every leap in medicine, computers, transit, communications and military might is because of scientific advancement. How would we deal with a president who literally thinks dinosaurs roamed the earth with man? I’ll take him over Trump but be prepared to fight a whole different set of problems.
10
I'd certainly rather have Pence lunching with Theresa May or Nancy Pelosi in the presence of staffers or observers, than Trump meeting with Putin in the presence of no one but silenced interpreters.
17
Pence first; then Trump (just like Agnew first, then Nixon).
Long live President Pelosi.
10
If sleeper Mike Pence were involved in the dirty dealings even though his name has not been dropped, both he and tRump could be impeached. Next in line? Speaker of the House.
6
At a certain point it may become clear that V.P. Pence failed to execute his duty to invoke--or at least consider--the 25th amendment.
That or some other dereliction of duty, based on the weirdness of this administration, may make Mr. Pence impeachable.
Or, like Agnew, a blast from the past may emerge. Indiana politics is full of over- and under-the-radar yuck. Part time legislature. Until at least the 90s--and maybe still--the Indiana DMV was formally run for profit by the party with a legislative majority.
5
The deal is to impeach Trump, but not convict him. Remember, Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton we’re impeached BUT not convicted and so remained in office. Cutting trump off at the knees is far superior than having Pence and Mother move into the WH. He is far moved dangerous than thin-skinned, petty trump.
The best solution would be to get rid of trump and pence, and have Nancy move in...
10
He seems to have the belief of the "Promise Keepers"
2
The damage he could inflict as President- appointing Supreme Court Justices of his ilk!
6
No, no, no, don’t impeach Trump, we do not want to end up with Pence. Put up with Trump, and vote him out of the office in 2020. Nancy will take care of Trum, now that she is in power.
5
I keep wondering why Manafort wanted Pence as VP.
8
I have been saying since 11/10/16 that if we get rid of Der Furor, we would be trading proto-totalitarianism for proto-theocracy. I stand by that. Yes, Pence would be more "adult"; at least the tweeting, insults, petulance and relentless mean-spiritedness would stop. But it would be replaced by a meanly patrician, retrogressive, quasi-neanderthal who actually knows how to use the levers of power in a way Lord Cheeto the Daft does not. Thankfully, it is highly likely that the current "base" would not coalesce around him the way they do around the Mango Mussolini. Thus, it is likely that he would have little chance of winning in 2020. Still, he would be a different sort of danger every day he was in office.
7
I'm not concerned about managing 2 years of a nut-case like Pence, it's the 2020 election that scares me. Pence is actually very appealing to not only far-right Republicans, he could garner votes from Anti-Trump Republicans and be a formidable candidate. I could not imagine two and a half terms of him. As difficult as it has been to weather through the current clown show, I think the best solution is to vote these knuckleheads out and seek justice at the state level for Trump's crimes.
5
On many topics the New York Times provides excellent reporting. On political opinion, the quality is more mixed.
We live in a hundred Americas. We are told by liberals that this is a good thing, that we have so many different backgrounds.
But those different backgrounds come with different baggage. Having a wide number of religious faiths means that there are strong differences of opinion on say whether being gay is sinful.
I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian household. I had to reject some of the beliefs of my parents. One of them was a literal interpretation of the Holy Scriptures which held that the earth is only 6000 years old.
Another teaching was the story of Lot. God regarded Sodom and Gomorrah as so sinful that he caused their destruction by fire and brimstone. When Lot's wife looked back, she was turned into a pillar of salt.
What exactly was the sin? Homosexuality.
You can say that is a toxic belief. But how far do you want to go. People believe things which are false. Do you put them in prison? Or simply fire them?
Perhaps liberals would like us to amend the Bill of Rights. The founders did not fully understand the implications of freedom of religion.
Or maybe we should allow people to not only come from India or Botswana, but also have religious beliefs that others simply don't believe.
But should we enforce the denial of conscientious beliefs when we (the sanctimonious liberals who have the right answers) know they are wrong?
1
Mike Pence's hands are not clean. If Trump were to be impeached, there is no way he would not blow the whistle on Pence's involvement in this Administration's multitudinous shady dealings. Does anyone believe that he did not know about the actions of traitor Mike Flynn? Give me a break! The one (inadvertently) noble thing that the Trump presidency will leave us is President Pelosi. That is, if he doesn't get her killed trying to visit troops in war zones. Trump "takes down" all his supposed loyalists.
3
suspence (noun)
1. an anxiety about the uncertainty of your country's future when a sycophant becomes President.
2. dread and apprehension about the future of your country.
Gail Collins has perfectly expressed what our family refers to as "suspence."
4
This is news to nobody. Most of the left has understood Pence to be effective impeachment insurance since day one of Trump. Lets face it - Trump has been a gift to the left. An incompetent blowhard, while he pushes all the democrats' buttons he's been much less successful at carrying out the right wing agenda than any likely republican alternative.
4
If mike pence were the president you would have twenty more democrats running than there already is. He is the human example of white latex paint. His idea of governance is to have more prayer. Trump chose him for the fact he keeps his mouth shut, stays on script( whatever that is ) and does what he is told. Like Agnew only not corrupt. As far as we know. A good VP is one who does what he is told and does not upstage the boss. Which is why joe Biden should not be running in 2020. Not really much to get excited about.
3
After Trump, where not a single day passes without some blockbuster news item, major international boo-boo or national embarrassment, or N semi-coherent tweets, President Pence would be B.O.R.I.N.G. Period.
These days, who doesn't get up in the morning, either with a sense of delirious excitement or profound black dread, wondering what disastrous news of the Trump Administration lies lurking?
2
I was kind of hoping that Pence would be implicated and removed also. Then Pelosi can be President for two years.
9
Mike Pence wanted to force all of the restaurants in Indiana to keep bottles of Mrs. Butterworth's Syrup off the tables and out of sight, in the kitchen area.
His problem was that "her figure, in plain view, could be overly stimulating and promote un-pure thoughts."
8
Having installed the most boorish and monstrously inept man possible as the head of the country’s Executive branch, we are left with an implacable mistake to be endured until the next election cycle. It’s almost impossible to imagine him being successfully impeached, as long as the Senate is in the hands of Mitch McConnell, the other pole of this nightmarish axle.
In short, we’re most assuredly stuck with the nitwit and his enabler until January 2021.
4
Impeaching Trump without some sort of simultaneous removal of Pence would be the equivalent of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Pence knows how our government works and would be much more effective than Trump in implementing his crazy right-wing-bring-back-the-fifties ideas.
If there were some way to remove both Trump and Pence from office -- wouldn't Pelosi become president? First woman president!
5
I think you badly underestimate Mike Pence. It's not everybody who's married to his Mother, and not only that, who knows what non-existent beings don't believe about gay marriage.
2
Pence is a Bible-thumping cipher. Trump picked him as VP because he was such a boring individual and would not divert the spotlight from Trump. Of course, some good might come from a Pence presidency. After Presidents Bush, Trump and Pence, Americans might decide to never elect another Republican as president.
9
Scary to imagine this bible-thumper in the Oval Office. It's not his adversity to being alone with women (an over-reaction to #MeToo?), it's his binary view of what's Right and Wrong, driven by a pathetic reliance on god and religion as he interprets it, instead of thinking for himself. We will see intractability if he becomes President, but at least he'll be predictable.
2
Pence is at least sane and he can benefit from wearing the Nobody is Worse than Trump badge of honor.
However, the Base will not support him and , more importantly , he’d have to run on a record of serving as Vice President in the most inept, most corrupt administration in American history.
Also, the way this White House is governing ,
he too may end up getting impeached.
Go Nancy!
5
I'm from NY so naturally I don't know much or care much about Indiana. It's one of those states we fly over and I always assumed the people there are like the people in Illinois, western Pennsylvania, and Ohio. Then I got to know Indiana's governor, Mike Pence. It certainly changed my mind about people from Indiana. How dumb could they be to elect someone like Mike Pence?
10
i can't stand them both, but dotard don is only slightly preferable to dense pence.
2
Let's get rid of Pence first. Given his strange, pathetic approach to sex, he must have had a lurid 5 minutes or so with another human at some point. All we need is a victim. And then when Pence is forced to resign, Trump would have to mumble over who to replace him with just as Mueller drops his literary bombs and forces Trump to resign. At which point Speaker Nancy Pelosi would become President, a blessing that we probably don't deserve, but one which we will be thankful for forever.
6
I think Pence’s first action if he becomes President would be to pardon Trump.
6
"Never thought much about Mike, did you?"
Actually, yes, I have. As horrifying as it was to contemplate a Trump presidency, a Pence presidency may be even more dangerous.
Trump is inept in his horrific attempts to subvert the Constitution. Pence most likely is not inept in his homophobia, his misogyny, and what is apparently his genuine belief that God has ordained him to be president. Perhaps he sees Trump as an anti-christ and himself as a messiah.
Pence is extremely dangerous.
He has been smart enough to try to keep his distance from the Trump WH inner workings. He may well be the next president. We should all refrain from chuckling about it, because it's very, very scary.
5
Pence may be out of touch w most east and west coast people and I may not agree w him and he may nominate judges and pass legislation that I abhor. None of that matters in relation to the fact that he is clearly not the danger that is Trump. Pence is a conservative - Trump is satanic.
1
Looking at this from a strategy perspective, the choice of Pence was one of Trump‘s rare good moves (assuming that there may be others). The mere thought of that zombie as prez conjures visions of pyres and flesh eaters.
3
Pence is another form of malignancy from the cancer that is Trump. Only difference is that if Trump is impeached and run out of office, Pence would never get elected in 2020 - he has zero appeal to anyone other than the evangelicals. Trump has a cult following, Pence doesn’t.
2
I highly doubt Pence would become President for more than an hour. When Trump goes down, so too will Pence. Hello, President Pelosi!
4
I loathe Trump and everything he stands for. However, I am opposed to his impeachment only because his cult following will always believe the “deep state” got rid of him. They will always believe he was innocent and we will have a non-violent civil war with polarization even worse.
Trump only has two more years. It would probably take a good part of the year to impeach him. I think it is in the best interest of the country to permit him to finish his term. Then if there is evidence of crimes, which I am sure there will be, he should be indicted.
5
The awful ascent of mindless toady Pence is the only reason I am not in the “Impeach Trump Now” camp. A fresh face on the same terrifying ideas would give millions of voters with buyer’s remorse over Trump an excuse to vote for Pence. Believe it or not, things could get worse.
5
Connecticut is the national home of every kind of in esurance, except impeachment insurance. First Dan Wuayle then Mike Pence. What are they doing there?
I can’t look at a picture of Mike Pence looking at Trump without thinking about the Stepford Wives.
9
Pence is the odd man out in this administration, the anti-Trump, if you will. He is self-righteous, as Winston Churchill would say, with a great deal to be self-righteous about.
1
....'remember this is a guy that spent12 years in Congress without passing a single piece of legislation. That's the laughable definition of the man who could become the next President..if we are successful in ridding ourselves of the man whose definition is not laughable - it's deplorable, disgraceful, and downright dangerous. D is for Donald and all of the above.
2
Before Mike Pence's attempt to perfect the art of unctuous, smarmy, sycophancy, as Vice President, and project rabid homophobia as Indiana's governor, he was a callous congressman. His misogynistic and anti family voting record included, opposing parental and maternity leave,stem cell research, the ACA, increasing the minimum wage, EPA greenhouse gas regulations, alternative energy funding, expanding CHIP, funding PPH, financial assistance for workers displaced by Globalization , and grants to historical Black colleges. I would think even "mother" would be a little concerned.
6
Hey I call my missus mother! Normally in front of our kid. Am I weird?
THEN; "One of the more publicly shared accounts of Pence’s transition from a Catholic youth minister who wanted to be a priest to an evangelical megachurch member came in 1994..."
NOW; "Also, organizing a Bible study group for cabinet officials led by a pastor who has described Catholicism as a “false” religion
WOW; in twenty five years time Mr. Pence erased one thousand years of history, (see church door, Martin Luther) Miracle!!!
2
Thanks, Gail. Now I have one more thing to keep me awake at night.
2
Pence’s ability to keep his facial muscles in a “look” of rapt devotion and adoration is remarkable. Is a skill? Is it due to some sort of trance like self-hypnosis? Or due to some hidden past where he was subjected to brain-washing a purpose that should worry about?
I’ve known monks in monasteries who exuded calm and inner peace. But they never looked this way! They never “looked” as if ... well, I simply have no vocabulary for a person with such a “studied state of being transported by fascination and wonder” - especially when the object of his fascination, wonder, and adoration is a known sociopath, a cruel and sadistic, utterly selfish and self-involved, even delusional liar and law-breaker.
Pence should be removed from office and taken to a research institution where they can study him day and night.
Please God....
8
From dire to dreadful...what a choice.
7
Another strike against him is that he is exactly the type of guy Donald Trump would pick as a subordinate.
7
Pence could not punch his way out of a paper bag. His appeal to any other than the Trump base is nonexistent. Bring him and "Mommy" on.
2
A President Pence would embody greater fears for American democracy, which has been crushed to a fare-thee-well in Donald Trump's SFV fist for the past 2 years. Chances are that Pence wouldn't inspire Trump's redmeat base to vote for him, as Mike Pence is lacking in oomph, chutzpah and carney-barker scorn like their beloved reality TV Star. Pence isn't even an effective VEEP -- though he does have "The Gaze" (Nancy Reagan, Pat Nixon) downpat. Why is he going around mouthing Trump tweets (such as "we defeated ISIS in Syria!") when the Caliphate is alive and well? Will Bible Study groups and his scorn for modern mores cut the mustard with our newest voters, the Gen Ys and Millennialls? Prence isn't tabloid fodder like Trump has been for decades. Pence isn't yet a household word, like junk-food "hamberders". Please, Gail Collins, give us a reason why we want a 46th President (no matter his or her party) who calls his wife "Mother"?
2
Good point Michelle. Here’s another! No one elected Pense. Think Sarah Palin. What if John had won the election, and then the cancer that killed him happened while he was President.
Maybe it’s time to re-think our blessed Constitution. Simple solution? The Speaker of the House who is presently in 3rd place. I was no great lover of Paul Ryan, but seriously, if you had to choose between him and Trump? Also, He and ALL speakers were elected to office. Just saying!
3
A Pence for His thoughts. Fair value.
Seriously.
4
Thank you, Gail.
I typically appreciate your ability to criticize using humor, but today's piece isn't at all funny. That's exactly why I like it.
435
We are rapidly reaching a point where only divine intervention will save us.
5
Every time I think "even Pence would be better", I pause and wonder if he feels it would be his moral obligation to bring on the Rapture.
12
Perhaps Ms. Collins, you remember when after viewing the vice-presidential debate with Pence and Mr. Timothy Kane, you ventured that we all fell asleep. Oh, No! Not this viewer who spent a night troubled, sensing that we would probably end up with this sinister man who has the backing of the Military, and would make General Patton look like a wuss.
All original stories having been told, it was different and yet the same, when Philippus of Athens in a letter to Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote on the death of Augustus, 'And, now our new emperor is one whom you tutored as a boy, and to whom you remain close in his new authority; let us be thankful for the fact that he will rule in the light of your wisdom and virtue, and let us pray to the gods, that under Nero, Rome will at last fulfill the dream of Octavius Augustus'.
Rome, Northampton, Denver, 1967 - 1972, (John Williams)
There is a reason that tears are shed over answered prayers; a reason that George Will of the Republican Party bowed out of the presidential elections early, and wrote a scathing profile of Mike Pence in this chilling moment in history.
While our 45th president shows a lack of character and appears lost on another planet, the occupant of The White House and his trip of dotterel should be sent into exile; the elections last, declared fraudulent and fabricated with the help of a foreign alliance.
8
Pence is Trump's insurance policy.
1
Pence was handpicked for VP by Paul Manafort. Even if the pick was clean politically, Pence could still be covered in Manafort mud—that type of filth sticks even if you only had knowledge of the events as they were playing out.
9
Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that when Pence speaks, especially on TV, he maintains a pained facial expression as if he has to go to the bathroom? And about his collection of animals - a snake, a dog and a rabbit. Is he getting ready for the second Noah's Ark?
6
I'll just point out that Ronald Reagan called Nancy "Mommy" so I'm afraid there is a precedent.
6
Ms Collins you’re a provocateur who speaks down to readers who know the reasons Mr Pence won’t be in the same room alone with a women he doesn’t know well. And your dismissiveness of him calling his wife “Mother”, give me a break. Time for readers to save their valuable time and avoid your senselessness.
3
Better a non-entity with some loathsome religious notions that D-Lister chaos-making Fake who may be a traitor to his country.
2
Anyone not allowing anyone else religious freedom in America is a frightening individual to me and that is No Sense Pence who probably believes God is speaking directly to him at all times, and wants us all to obey Pence in 'His' name. Yeah right.
One major problemo at a time, Gail, and who knows maybe Pence will be facing indictments too despite his disappearing act of blending into the wallpaper or any other surroundings when Trump is around him.
Two buffoons in the highest offices in the land providing slapstick comedy daily to Putin.
6
Pence is weird on gender issues, but he is not a corrupt, mean-spirited demagogic thug.
99
Obviously Gail has never had a door held open for her.
Chivalry has died people, right here on the pages of the NYT.
1
Never thought about Pence being the replacement? Really? Isn't Gail Collins just the most terminally unique opinion columnist in the country?
Of course we have thought of it. And it's better to have a crazy theocrat than a crazy malignant narcissist in the job. Pence ran Indiana for four years and the state did not go into the toilet.
Between a total incompetent and a morally bankrupt religious zealot, my pick for President is a ham sandwich.
14
What you see, Gail, as sexual perversion in Pence is just common sense protection of someone of political stature and ambition.
2
Between an incompetent Russian puppet and a total dunce, the GOP is in a pickle.
4
I'd say this is the real ODD COUPLE, a guy who can't be trusted to be alone with a woman, because he can't keep his pants on; and then the other guy who can't be trusted to be alone with a woman not his wife, because he can't trust himself in close proximity with the smell of an woman's scent...creepy on both counts.
4
Mike Pence is the epidemic.
2
Well—whatever else you think Pence might do, it’s likely his religiously anchored hypocrisy might be just as galling as Phrumps lies. When a fractured and continuously fracturing religious sect and it principles attempt to run a secular government, another kind of hell is likely to open up. Not so long ago, the early remnants of Pence’s religion neither wanted women to vote or work outside the home. But Pence’s wife apparently does both.
A reminder of the need to keep an ancient religion from retarding (pun intended) secular progressionism—since it seems to be the engine that moves humanity forward where it seems naturally inclined to go.
3
A homophobe yes, fearful of women yes, weird yes, but a pathological liar no. A hateful nasty man-child no.
I'll take the gay hater over the current toddler tomorrow. And I don't believe he would have a chance in hell to win in 2020. I don't see him chanting about walls and locking people up at rallies. Boring.
Yup, impeach Donald for his crimes and misdemeanors and bring on the bland!
4
Pence will never, ever live down the nauseating butt-kissing he has lavished on Trump. If he becomes president through Trump stepping down, his tenure will likely be among the most unremarkable in America's history. But for the country that fashions itself the exemplar of democracy and greatness, every additional day with Donald Trump as president is an unthinkable humiliation. The U.S. has been many things to the rest of the world - savior, inspiration, symbol of hope, oppressor, ally, enemy - but until now it has never been a cosmic joke.
11
If Trump is impeached and removed from office, or resigns, I suspect Pence would be president for perhaps 18 months, and would, tarnished by his toadying association with Trump, soundly lose to the Democratic challenger in November 2020 (like Ford versus Carter in 1976). My real worry about a Pence presidency: Pence pardons Trump, and Trump never pays for his crimes.
11
We’d be replacing the wildly loose cannon with the tightest cannon imaginable.
7
Pence knew, The excuse that trump gave for firing Flynn was that he lied to Pence. This will be shown a lie, they will both be impeached and we will have President Pelosi. I know it is a dream, but keep hope alive that this mess gets sorted out and justice prevails.
11
i'm just hoping pence has gotten himself tangled into trump's web of lies. i don't understand how pence can take over the presidency when the whole administration is in washington based on lies and russian wrong doing. plus it would be delicious irony for pelosi, another extremely capable female politician equal to clinton, to assume trump's presidency.
5
Ah, between a rock head and a hard heart! Just wonderful.
5
Pence, like his boss, is in way over his head. What's the old saying, "from the frying pan into the fire?" America would not be better off. Best to wait for Mueller's investigation to come out and get rid of both in 2020 by vote.
5
It's worth noting that Karen Pence has chosen for years to work at a school that not only bans gay staff and students. It even bans straight students if other members of their household are gay.
Her husband must be proud.
9
Try to go back and remember what you thought when Pence initially signed on as candidate Trump’s presumptive vice. Personally, I thought “This is a desperate guy with no options and no shame, mainly because he bombed out as a governor.” Incredible and unjust as it seems, this person might accidentally become president. Anything can and does happen.
5
Thanks for the chuckle.
I guess Pence has not grasped the separation of church and state concept.
But, if, yikes, he were to become the placeholder president, it would be in a lame duck time frame with a Democratic majority Congress.
Hopefully that would limit his ability to drag the country back to the time when women knew their place and there was no such thing as an LGBTQ community.
6
Donald Trump has been the wild card president who governs pretty much how all of us imagined he would run the office. Republicans love him when he supports those good old fashioned Republican values...you know like dramatically lowering taxes on corporations and the wealthy to help the the other 99%, allowing everyone to say "Merry Christmas" again, undermining the ACA (because our health care system was so great before the ACA), supporting everyone's right to bear lot and lots of arms to protect us from all the people bearing lots and lots of arms, .etc...However he upset the Republican master plan when he started a trade war, became BFF with our former nemesis Putin, and focused on wall building. But his Tweet power convinced a pretty large number of established Republicans to sing a new tune. Pence is not a wild card. He will allow the Republicans to focus on the most pressing problems facing our nation...like fighting the gay agenda, limiting a women's right to choose, eliminating access to birth control, adding intelligent design to science education, tossing out those pesky climate change research reports, shrinking social programs that provide aide to the needy, and ensuring that all paths lead to Jesus. We all can rest easy knowing that we have nothing to fear with Pence. On the bright side we probably won't have to wait for the weekly set of nutty tweets from Pence. He will do mean things quietly like a good right wing puppet.
3
We are instructed by the Framers of the Impeachment Clause in our Constitution to act. Conjuring a more compelling case is beyond imagination. To not act is to nullify this constitutional provision. This self-dealing POTUS is an individual possessed of no identifiable virtue, dispossessed of no serious vice (his strict abstinence of alcohol consumption can be seen as a perversion of the virtue of moderation). His biography is a litany of betrayal, after betrayal, as a family man, businessman, and as a citizen. One would be reckless in the extreme to hire such an individual to mow their lawn. But greed and bigotry, the twin essences of his campaign and administration (and what fuels the ravenous insistence for the wall) are what has not been betrayed. No disguise (con) there. Amoung his retained support, the importance of character, basic decency, religion, patriotism and attachment to our democratic form of government have been subordinated to his depraved agenda.
4
I've always viewed Pence as the greater threat because he's actually a true believer. If he were to replace the manchild we would have our own Khomeini as head of state. Not a pretty thought.
4
Should Pence be caught in the investigation (possible, given that he was chosen by Manafort and that he headed Trump's transition team), Pelosi is next in line.
5
This administration is like those horror movies that end with a new threat smirking in the final shot, after the current villain is defeated, laying the groundwork for sequel II, III, etc.
Fortunately for us, the third in line is Pelosi, so we will only have to suffer through two nightmares.
4
It's a clear, two-step process. Vote 'em both out. Lock 'em both up.
6
I'll take Pence in the proverbial heartbeat over our current man in the White House. And, if not Pence, then the third in line is Pelosi, who would be a dream come true for the country.
3
President Nancy Pelosi. I like the sound of that.
893
Nobody thinks Mike Pence would be a qualified, moral, or competent president. He was, after all, incapable of getting above "woefully unpopular" ratings in his own state.
The closest thing that comes to mind when I think of a Pence presidency is baby Bush (with a little extra pearl clutching). How often I've found myself longing for Bush to be president again these past few years, though...
93
Pence would need to coach the next VP to maintain a permanent worshipful gaze trained on the back of Pence's ears, as he does with Trump.
It's the worshipful wife gaze that Pence's mother taught him.
6
I’ll bet when Pence’s name came up, two-thirds would include the words “Well, at least he wouldn’t bomb anybody.”
I'm actually curious why Gail thinks that would be. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that would be true. And while on the subject if Clinton were president there is also no way of knowing how reckless and murederous her foreign policy would have been,
2
In addition to the fun-filled facts Gail provided, I was astonished by a news clip I heard yesterday that included Pence saying the following to the Right To Life March in Washington.... he said that he couldn't wait for women's right to an abortion to be abolished.
Wait a second!! This is a man who TOOK AN OATH to preserve and protect the Constitution. And that means the current version of the Constitution, not some future version that he desires.
So our Vice President just admitted to us that he refutes his oath to preserve the Constitution. This is mind-boggling.
7
Never thought of it? Are you kidding Gail? Even during the election we were calling Pence Trump's best defense against impeachment and his get out the of jail free card. And I am sure that as a key reason for selecting him. Although how self righteous moralizing Pence and mother could have anything to do with him just demonstrates the hypocrisy of the so called Christian fundamentalists.
Unless he can be impeached along with Trump, Pence is the primary reason to vote Trump out rather than impeach him. We don't need America to become another repressive theocracy. Even if such a state were to punish Trump for his transgressions it wouldn't be worth it for the rest of us.
2
Impeach Pence first for fainting invoke 25.Amendment but first House Judiciary Comte calls him to testify about those reported discussions and he refuses. Then the House has a say in the successor and if Congress doesn’t agree then the Speaker is next in line.
2
Dear Ms. Collins,
Jeeez. Stop pointing out that the impotent Pence has never actually done anything. Because if he does wind up being POTUS, then he might take umbrage and decide, after all, that he is going to actually DO something. And let me tell you, I don't want Pence "doing" anything to me that isn't witnessed by at least three non-consensual, non-participating witnesses. In other words, most of Trumph's legal team.
2
The Trump to Pence scenario you outlined reminds me of a torture scene in an old Sandals -Swords movie. The slaves felt so much better when the lashings stopped! So what of they were half dead. The whippings came to an end.
Pence really should see Quo Vadis. In the movie Nero blames the Christians for burning Rome. He should be deeply pensive about how he would handle being emperor of Rome when Nero is murdered.
Nero ordered that the Christians be fed to the lions. How would he feed the Lions?
2
I had to laugh at this description of "a world of the old order", when Gail wrote about "defined by their gender". Gee, that sounds pretty modern and "woke", in a world of constant identity politics where you're positions, views, feelings, actions, and virtually everything is defined not by your character or what's inside, but by your "gender" or your "gender identity", your orientation, race, ethnicity, and a myriad of other things. No individuality, no, you are identified by one characteristic and you are expected to conform to the group think that entails.
Doesn't sound like progress to me.
2
I think there’s a pretty good case against Pastor Pence brewing as well. We could see President Pelosi.
5
Pence, it was hoped, would keep the evangelicals in line through his ostentatious displays of morality and bigotry. He reacts with the appropriate amount of indignation toward the question when asked about Trump’s behavior, ensuring that the rituals of righteousness remain strong even if the targets go a little mealy. Apart from that the man is a cypher.
Were Pence to become president the only change to the country would be that a few billboards on I-80 would have to be replaced. The conservative grifters currently looting the government and creating a judiciary of exclusion would still be welcomed in DC while the majority of Americans who did not vote for this presidency would be kept out.
Trump as president, Pence as president, who cares? They’re exactly the same in all the ways that matter.
If Trump broke the law he should be tried and punished appropriately. Whatever. The focus ought to be on making the government work for all Americans again.
2
Anyone who can claim to be "deeply humbled" in the presence of trump does not deserve a shot at the presidency...Ever! Trump, and pence by extension, did not win the popular vote. It's time the majority in this country had its way, and neither trump nor pence are the way.
7
Trump you can see what he's doing, because he is the poster child for "Loose lips sink ships".
Underestimate Pence at your peril... I am sure he has the attitude of the rights of kings when it comes to who would have elevated him to President - and it wouldn't be via a Senate impeachment.
5
We can only deal with one massive catastrophe at a time. First, Trump. Get him out. This is not a time for hand-wringing, it's a time for movement. As in move Trump either to Mar-A-Lago or a federal penitentiary.
1
Dear Gail, Your sense of humor sometimes grabs me weirdly.
I laughed out loud at "Wow, this is not beginning well," which is a nice twist on what we usually hear.
4
Manafort picked Pence as Trump's running mate ...think about that! Pence was available and eager because it was obvious he would not be reelected as Governor. He provided a link to the far-right religious that Trump desperately needed. And the key attribute we've all seen: he's invisible otherwise.
Pence is like those "flat daddys" of the Iraq war era: he's a cardboard prop that can be brought out to remind some people of a missing attachment -- but there's nothing there.
Pence has no base. He was a one-trick pony with his Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and the blowback from it destroyed his Governorship and lames him today. The Trumpublicans will fracture because a large portion of Trump's base has no use for Pence's attempts to introduce what amounts to Christian Sharia.
If he becomes President through Trump's resignation or removal he will be nothing more than a guy with the pen ... and the football. He will have nothing like Gerald Ford's stature and power, and Ford's was badly crippled by the process that booted Nixon, and his decision to pardon.
The really interesting question is would Pence pardon Trump or any of his underlings? Pardoning Trump for campaign violations would be far more unethical than Ford's pardon of Nixon was; Ford was not Nixon's running mate, had nothing to do with Nixon's campaign.
And then there's the reality: Pence cannot pardon state crimes, and Letitia James already knows of felonies she can indict.
7
There is very little a Democrat of any stripe can accept about Pence. But unlike his boss, he has a working although fitful relationship with truth. He is a politician as opposed to a self dealing megalomaniac. Left to his own devices, he is far less likely to consider Kim and Vlad wonderful people, probably accepts that allies are friends not enemies, that world trade is not a toy and walls are not the ultimate in security. Trump is a danger to the stability of the world. Pence would be awful but an improvement.
"12 years in Congress without passing (initiating) any legislation." So Pence's brain is so empty that he can't initiate anything. A Pence presidency would result in the Republican Senate to be unlikely to continue to sit mindlessly quivering in their boots for fear that Donald Trump will bring his base out against them in the next election. Moreover, Pence is so mindless and lacking in initiative that he would have to listen to advisers every time he moved. The likelihood of a wild-man pushing a nuclear button in a fit of rage is minimal. Presumably, "Mother" is the one that provides his breakfast and dinner, sends him off to work with a sack marked "lunch" and makes sure that he washes behind his ears.
While he might be so passive as to keep all Trump's advisers because he is too mindless to clean the swamp himself, if he is unable to create a law in 12 years in the Senate, there is no reason for him to start in his last two years of the Presidency.
Pence's potential for evil is massive, but his capability of taking initiative is nonexistent. He'd balance out as a do-nothing president for 2 years and then fade away, forgotten.
4
The word that comes to mind when I think of Pence is "smarmy." The man reeks of sanctimony.
Earth to Pence: The United States is a democracy, not a theocracy.
8
For someone who considers himself devoutly religious, Mike Pence must not be aware of the 8th or 9th commandment (depending on your denomination) - that pesky one about bearing false witness. Pence lies effortlessly, and so often that he is just creepy.
Never trust anyone who thinks a snake is a good pet; that says more about the person than any professed religious beliefs.
8
Keep in mind that Trump chooses people only because they look the part. Pence may look the part, but he is no more competent than any of Trump’s other choices. That makes him every bit as dangerous as Trump.
I see Pence as nothing more than “Taliban Trump” — not ready to solve problems but eager to impose his morality on others. He offers no depth, just simplistic ideas and bromides that will move our nation backward. He, like Trump, thinks the 1950s were America’s finest hour.
“My kingdom is not of this world,” Jesus said. “Mine is,” Pence now seems to be saying. So watch out on this one, people. The cure may be worse than the disease.
7
It’s hard to believe except when one reads this Op Ed, but you can’t make this stuff up. Well, in theory you can, but whether you believe Gail or not folks this ain’t fake news.
And that’s what makes it scary.
1
When GHW Bush was the Republican candidate for president, rumour had it that he chose Dan Quayle as his running mate because Quayle was such a non-entity that no one would try to impeach Bush (Iran-Contra, anyone?).
Is there something similar going on here?
p.
2
Can’t wait for season 3 of “The Handmaiden’s Tale,” subtitled, “President Mike Pence’s Second Term.”
4
Pence would tend to make the US more of a theocracy, probably the worst form of government. How do you reason with someone who claims to be speaking for God, whether or not god exists?
7
If the election of 2016 is found to be fraudulent, every member of cabinet and SCOTUS pick by this administration should also be removed. Pelosi should be President.
5
Trump may be impeached but removal from office would require 20 Republican senators to find a spine and a sudden respect for their oath of office.
This is as likely as Pence inviting all 36 freshman women in the 116th Congress over to the VP residence for margaritas and a screening of Bohemian Rhapsody.
But if it comes to it ...
I'd take the weird empty suit guy who's afraid to be alone with women over the malignant career white collar criminal with a fondness for authoritarian murderers who's afraid of being yelled at by Ann Coulter.
7
You poor Americans, to have Pense as Emperor Trump’s best insurance policy is a sad footnote to a failed democracy where as little as 18% of your population can elect a US senate majority. I love it when Americans see the first major exit when crossing the border from I-5 and see King George Highway, we celebrate King George and Great Britain for creating and saving in the War of 1812 the only real democracy left in North America.
2
We would not expect Trump’s VP to be abed of roses under the best of circumstances. Having said that, Pence as president is very troubling for the reasons stated. He is the imbodinent of mediocrity and, worse, his coziness with the the Kochs is reason enough to fear him.
3
The good news about a President Pence is that he has the personal appeal of a garden slug. It’s hard to imagine campaign crowds thrilling to his rants or even showing up to hear them. That’s the kind of Republican we need.
4
Trump resigns or is removed, President Pence would pardon him a la Ford/Nixon, thus dooming him in 2020. Pence would be infinitesimally better than Trump, and then in 2020 our national nightmare is over.
Our problem is not Donald Trump or Mike Pence. These guys are who they are and in all fairness they made an amazing job of introducing themselves to the whole World during the Primary Season. So, let us not blame these two souls for the disaster that has befallen this Nation. Our problem that underlies the current catastrophe and the future ones is an unbelievably ignorant and uninformed Electorate the likes of which are not found even in the Third World countries at least in those which hold elections. It is a malignant disease that if not seriously treated, will lead to the downfall of this great Country. The argument is that Democracy will inevitably become self destructive in a nation without well informed citizenry. Ignorant people elect ignorant Leaders and ignorant Leaders will destroy the Country as we are witnessing with the Trump/Pence Admin. This Ignorance pandemic is the consequence of the following factors:
1. Religion as a multi-billion DollarTax Free Enterprise poisoning the minds of not just gullible Citizens but the indoctrination of children at very early age. The influence is so strong that despite Founding Fathers creation of a Godless Constitution in which the separation of Church and State was emphasized and undelined in no uncertain terms, Religion's footprints on Public Policies are becoming more and more evident.
Unfortunately ran out of space! others: poor education, culture of entertainment promoted by Media
3
Ms. Collins, why did you write "OK, no" in response to your "least alarming interpretation?" Your least alarming interpretation seems to hit the nail on the head! He needs a chaperone everytime he ventures out in public? Will he shake a woman's hand in the absence of his wife?
Pence's version of Christianity is downright dangerous to anyone who disagrees with him and/or, God forbid, is a Catholic or Muslim. Still, it would be fun to see how he'd interact with Nancy Pelosi, "one-on-one" so to speak.
2
Mr. Pence is a perfect insurance for M. Trump against all kind of Putschs and impeachments from all sides.
Did he pick him for this?
If he really did this would have been a brilliant tactical move.
"The least alarming interpretation of the vice president’s rules...is that this guy is such a wild man, he can’t control himself unless there’s somebody else there to guard a female in his near proximity."
Quite true...more concerning would be that refusing "to eat a meal alone with any woman he's not married to" leaves a deliberate loophole for polygamy...
2
Don't worry, Gail. Pence is up to his ears in the same conspiracy that others close to Trump are ensnared in.
3
Well, at least Pence would have zero chance of re-election.
4
I am betting that Pence will be found guilty of lying about Flynn lying to him about meeting with Russians after all, Pence was on the Transition Team and had direct influence with Flynn.
But I digress. The best part of this column is the laughs that I am starting the day with.
Thanks, Gail
5
Is there anybody who thinks Pence would blow the whistle on any illegal activity he has seen or heard in this thoroughly corrupt administration?
Don’t be absurd. Of course not.
5
Have you ever tuned in to Rush's show when Rush isn't there? When someone else is there spouting nonsense, it sounds exactly like what it is. So it is with Trump and Pence. Trumpism is a cult of personality, and let's just say that Pence barely registers. (He was called Governor empty suit with good reason).
I would agree with others who say that Pence's complicity in the conspiracy during the campaign/ transition/ past two years disqualify him for the Presidency, but that would be too great a shock to the constitutional system. By rights, Ms. Pelosi should be the President after impeachment of DJT, but we would get the next best thing; a powerless President Pence and a strong House of Representatives.
All that is probably fine with VP Pence. He has no problem being a lap dog, so long as he gets to be President Lap Dog.
I'm enjoying the comments from other Hoosiers. Yes, Pence is corrupt and incompetent. But, I think we have a lot less to fear from the garden variety Pence version than from the Russian fed corruption and malicious incompetence of Trump.
2
If Trump is removed because his actions caused the election to be deemed illegitimate, how can Pence take over? He is illegitimate too. Also , how can an illegitimate president make lifetime appointments? Shouldn't they all be considered null and void???
2
What are the chances of Pence going out with the Trump? Didn't he collude along with Flynn? Then we would be left with Nancy Pelosi . That wouldn't be half bad.
3
He led the disastrous and deceitful presidential transition team, so he is surely in Mueller's field of vision. Fingers crossed.
3
If the Trump campaign conspired with Russia, then there's no way Pence was not involved. He was head of the transition team, and in the loop when Mike Flynn was getting a jump start on giving Putin everything he's ever wanted. If Trump goes, Pence will go too.
2
Door Trump or Door Pence are the horns of a dilemma, Hobson’s Choice, question du jour. Pence’s rather simpleton public persona belies a crafty, calculating politicIan who will readily do “what’s necessary”. Be careful for what you wish....
This Mr. Pence does not seem to trust himself very much when being alone with a female other than Mother. Doesn't he know that all he has to say is "NO" to an attempted luncheon seduction. One can only hope he is not bobbing his head while declining. His imagination is priceless.
1
There is also the possibility that POTUS Pence would become a new target of "loser" Donnie. Imagine 3 am tweets from T-Tower calling the shinny new leader of the GOP out for some imaged slight. And, the new insulting nickname, whatever it turns out to be.
What's good for the press is good for, who?
1
Sure the prospect of a President Pence is horrifying, but here's the thing. We don't yet have all the facts in. What if it turns out that Trump really is Putin's puppet? A well-attested, assessment based on the mountain of evidence presented by Mueller's team. Could even the Republican Senate simply mutter "Ho hum?" Oh God I hope not. If we can't impeach and convict a President for that, we are setting a terrible precedent. That anything, anything, including treason is acceptable in a President as long as his own party holds the Senate. Good-bye, democracy, hello, dictatorship.
1
Pence was the Evangelical ticket for Trump. A simpleton with Dogmatic beliefs can be dangerous at the end. The Koch brothers and Ann Coulter support him, wouldn't expect differently.
3
Mr. Pence appears to be an empty vessel guided by a very limited view of mankind and a very inflated view of himself. Using almost any definition of a leader, he does not measure up.
2
There is one good thing about Pence. He's stiff, creepy, closed-minded, and intensely unlikable except to those of his specific ilk. He may acquire the keys to the Oval Office via Trump's removal, but he could never win reelection.
As for bad things, comment space is limited and most have already been covered so I'll stick with the personal. He obeys Trump like a whipped puppy. Where did he learn this kind of smug subservience? My guess is …… Mother.
3
If Trump should be impeached, perhaps Pence should be too. He certainly supports everything Trump does.
1
Pence doesn't believe in evolution. He does believe the universe is only 6000 years old and dinosaurs roamed the earth with people. Under Pence, research in all sciences will be starved of money and the US will fall way behind China and Russia in technology.
3
In my opinion, the only form of government worse than one run by corporations would be a theocracy. Ross Douthat, in an editorial last week, declared that he dreamed of a theocracy run by Catholics. Great! We could revive the Inquisition; burn non-believers at the stake in the Washington Mall; perhaps start planning our next Crusade to the Middle East. After all, the last one, overseen by Bush the lesser (Individual-1's only real rival for worst president in history), was such a great success.
Pence's attempt to establish a Protestant theocracy in Indiana looks to have done considerable, lasting damage to that state. Perhaps he could bring that to the national level. And as the Koch brothers' man in the White House, he could combine the worst aspects of a corporatocracy and a theocracy.
No thanks.
3
If the Pences believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, and I do believe that's their excuse for their homophobia, then they are living in sin. Mother, er Mrs. Pence, was previously married and that husband is still living. Therefore, Mrs. "Pence" is in the eyes of their biblical god still married to a man who is not our Vice President. The pair is living in adulterous sin. I'm shocked a Christian school that teaches a literal interpretation of the Bible is inclined to let her anywhere near children.
1
One thing we know for sure, this bus doesn't stop until 2020. The driver may change but it's the same bus. That being said, people who break the law need to be punished, that's civilization 101.
I come from a very religious family and have known quite a few of Pence's type. Truly, truly creepy people who fall on their knees to ask God to give them the strength to smite their enemies. Onward Christian Soldiers. Two more years.
1
Pence seems almost more vile than Trump. He has no doubts about his dangerous wrongheadedness. After all, if he becomes president, he will know God put him there.
But, it is hard to imagine that Pence will pick up any support outside Trump's base, many of whom will be too depressed to vote in 2020, assuring a Democratic victory.
Maybe impeachment is our best scnario. But, the case must be so compelling that even negligent Republican senators will have to join in. Their past performance makes that unlikely. We're stuck with the clown.
Well Gail, you are about two years late to the impeachment party. As the line goes from the old Don Knotts movie, "Be careful what you wish for."
Pence cannot reverse the progress made by the LGBTQ movement, as embodied in a Surpreme Court ruling, at least not in the less than two years that he would be in office before the next election.
On the other hand, Pence will not bomb anyone, pull out of NATO, make backroom deals with Vladimir Putin, close the government for a month, and diminish American stature and power on the world stage to the point that our allies are making deals with each other that do not include us. He will also refrain from imposing additional tariffs that are already beginning to have a destructive impact on our economy. I doubt, too, that he will overtly court white nationalists and other racists to win support.
I also think that Pence may support legislation that would protect the DACA, because that is a popular position on both sides– and we would not be spending $5 billion on that wall.
Finally, although I agree that Mike Pence is a medieval monk, Donald Trump is Rasputin on methamphetamines. Get him out of there, before it is too late to go back.
2
I don't see how Pence's administration would do anything that Trump's administration full of right-wing fanatics and theocrats isn't already doing. Throughout the government agencies, where the real decisions about "social issues" are happening, Trump's already given them the reins.
I also don't see Pence winning a Presidential election on his own. Whereas Trump just might draw another electoral college inside straight. https://www.cookpolitical.com/sites/default/files/2019-01/EC.pdf
Pence would be a temporary irritant. He is so white bread with margarine that he would not win the Republican primary. Two years of Pence would be quieter than two more years of our current reality TV president.
2
Actually, I think that the concept is that Mike Pence is so gosh darned irresistible that any woman left alone with him would immediately be so overcome with passion that she would forcefully throw herself upon him thus jeopardizing his marriage. Strange that you never thought of that.
1
Gail, do you not at least entertain the possibility that Mueller has good some goods on Pence, the head of presidential transition?
1
I was surprised to hear about the snake.
Wasn't it a snake that caused all the chaos in the garden of Eden?
1
Once again, the lesser of two evils is our preference to run the WH. A man with antediluvian ideas, who is unable to effectively interact with women, who shut down the only health care many in Indiana relied upon, this is our hope for America.
NOT!
There is something fundamentally wrong with a hiring procedure (aka: elections), that allows completely unqualified people to ascend to positions of such power. Likewise, democracy has eroded when slime like McConnell can prevent legislation from consideration.
And here I thought I spent 5 years in the USMC defending a democracy.
1
From a bubble head to a bobble head. Lord have mercy. I think the real question is: if Karen "Mother" Pence has to be present to insure he is never alone with women he is not married to, how can she possibly have time to also be a teacher in a school that bans gay students? Boggles the mind. Bubble to bobble to boggle.
562
I'm no fan of the current White House administration. I never have been, but let's be reasonable. Although Pence displays some questionable behavior, some that seem outright appalling, I don't see him being as bad as Trump. Most presidents tend to drift closer to the center of the political spectrum once in office, Trump has moved further away. He appeals only to his base, and sees the rest of us as his enemy. I don't think Pence will continue in this manner. In fact, after the turmoil of Trump, I think it's completely possible that he'll level off.
Take Lyndon B Johnson, for example. A pretty run-of-the-mill Southern Democrat. Not the most popular president, having been granted the presidency after Kennedy's assassination. LBJ was a Senator from Texas who stuffed ballot boxes to win his seat. The only reason Kennedy chose him as vice was to appease the Southern Democrats who were against the abolishment of Jim Crow laws, LBJ included.
Kennedy had unsuccessfully tried to end institutional racism, but, as we all know, had his presidency cut short. When LBJ took office, he put his racist beliefs aside and fought tooth and nail along side Bobby Kennedy to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Here we have a racist president who once supported racist policies passing an act to help end institutional racism. LBJ saw the bigger picture, and I believe that it is not outside the realm of possibility for Pence to do the same.
2
If incontrovertible evidence is laid out in the Mueller report that Trump either broke the law or actively worked against the interests of the American people, he needs to be removed, no matter who the VP is. Saving our country from going down a path that encourages and empower autocrats is way more detrimental than a year of Pence. We can heal from the latter in term or two at the voting both, the former imperils us indefinitely.
4
he's a pertinent example of why Paine, Jefferson, Madison et al kept religion totally separate from the state. unfortunately, the very folks who promote a literal interpretation of the Constitution make the most egregious exceptions in this regard. for example, changing our national motto from E Pluribus Unum to "In God We trust" and adding this latter phrase to all our money. and where in the Constitution does it say "So help me God" that most people utter upon taking office to a public office with their hand on a Bible? it is insidious and leads the public to believe that their God is on the side of the USA, no matter what!
2
I find it truly amazing how many people are proposing what would effectively be an Unconstitutional COUP. Assuming you could Impeach and convict Trump and that isn't likely. The proposals here to rule the election invalid then appoint Pelosi? That is a coup no ifs no ands no buts. Mueller can't rule the election invalid neither can the courts. The valid election was when the Electoral college chose. You would beyond any doubt whatsoever the Russians decided the election!! You can't nobody can. It can be alleged the Russians decided but it CAN'T be proved. So tell me readers and people? What happens when some of the Government including very likely BIG chunks of the military decide there constitutional duty is to Trump not the ILLEGAL unelected Pelosi. They would an attempt to rewrite the election and they would be right. The Shooting would be inevitable. I don't like Trump I didn't vote for him. But ILLEGAL coup would worse for this country then Trump ever could be.,
Sadly, Trump and Pence are both totally unfit to be President. Hopefully, things will change in 2020 if the Dems are smart enough to run a moderate candidate with broad appeal. One who is both honest and likable. With Trump and Pence, it's really a challenge to figure out who's worse. Trump starts trade wars and proudly shuts down our government, both actions bringing misery to the American public. Pence is what some call a "bible thumper" meaning that the government and the country, were he president, would be run from the perspective of a religious zealot. We criticize Iran, Saudi Arabia and certain other Moslem countries as being run by religious leaders according to the precepts of the Koran. I would suggest that running the US according to a person's interpretation of the bible would be just as bad.
4
@FunkyIrishman - Pence is an Evangelical who attends an Evangelical Christian Church which is not affiliated with the Catholic Church or the Vatican.
A problem (among many) with Pence is that we can't "put religion aside." If he really is part of that fringe not just waiting for, but anticipating "The Rapture," as the Washington Post reported in August of last year, his willingness to put us in harm's way may be more unhinged than Trump's.
Cleaning out the whole mess in 2020 is a more appealing strategy for me than the risks of an expensive, distracting impeachment that further mobilizes a segment of humanity that thinks light is dark; freedom is dangerous; and equality is anathema--and further entrenches this country in an era of madness.
2
Well, choosing between Trump and Pence is like having to decide between hepatitis B and C.
But as much as I despise Trump - and that's very much indeed - I do suspect that Pence could be worse.
An analogy: If both men were seen as dangerous, perhaps armed with metaphorical assault rifles, Pence might actually aim and fire, as he is arguably more competent than Trump. Trump may have a bigger rifle (and buttons), but his gun is usually aimed at his foot.
What a choice!
8
Pres or Veep, either way he would still be an empty suit. If he ended up being president he would simply be Mitch McConnell's next place holder and distraction while Mitchypoo was busy getting as much ideological business done before the next election.
1
Mr Pence was also one of Donald’s campaign chairmen. What did he know about the Russia connection and when? If he, too, got his hands dirtied perhaps we can remove him before opening the trap door under Trump, as Agnew was removed before getting rid of Nixon. In that case, second in line is Nancy Pelosi.
7
Don’t be naive, Trump isn’t going anywhere. The Republican Party has become a cult and Trump is the latest Jim Jones. The Senate, if they achieve nothing else, will continue to stack the judiciary with “conservatives” that will wreak havoc for generations. Mueller has, thanks to some outfit that calls itself “Buzz Feed” finally exposed the media for what it is, fake news and we’re still a long, long way from rock bottom.
Despite his innumerable flaws he does have one advantage over Trump. He is not insane.
2
@Charles Focht
Are you really sure about that???
4
I’m more afraid of Pence than Trump, and I’m not convinced he’s less likely to bomb anybody. Don’t he and his ilk want to hasten the apocalypse to bring about the Second Coming? The Mueller dragnet needs to get them both.
3
This is EXACTLY why I’ve been trying to tell Dems all along that we do NOT want to impeach the Authoritarian in Chief. If the House impeaches him, the Senate could jump to the opportunity to console their disillusioned Republican constituents and might very well convict Trump and get him out of there only to put the potentially MORE disastrous Pence in charge of establishing an authoritarian theocracy here. The assumption being that Pence wouldn’t be nearly that controversial and might be able to turn around voter approval ratings of the GOP.
BEWARE Dems, do NOT impeach that guy. Use him as our posterchild for why NOT to vote Republican in ’20, get Mitch out of that chamber, and teach those traitors a lesson once and for all!
5
One remembers early on jokes about Pence’s addition to the ticket was Trump’s no impeachment ticket. Maybe something to that, huh? What a disaster.
If Pence were president and tried to pass legislation to elevate the Bible above the constitution (see Dominionism beliefs and political goals), its Game’s Up. Fundamentalists already tried passing anti contraception in deeply conservative Alabama and failed miserably. Pence will brazenly overreach; his brand of Christianity will not go over well with mainstream Christians and the entire country, including Republicans will revolt.
1
"the Pences have a snake, a dog, a cat and a rabbit."
The pet population in the Pence household is kind of like the character of Pence himself; looks normal at first, but given enough time, only the snake will be left.
3
Pence seems innocuous but as Gail writes here, there's so much more. I had just read about Mother going to work (now that the kids are grown, it's ok) to that school, and realize of course what that represents, but how really atavistic Mike and Mother are. And they're not alone but represent many others. Along with nationalism, racism, we can add sexism, genderism, progressive-ism. Odd how Bannon and Pence and many of these represent the same thing: a stand against reality, an anti-humanistic look at the "other" from how one views faith, the role of government, the respect and/or love for others, regardless of their faith, beliefs, practices. Mother teaching art in that world, Pence in his with of course the grifter-adulterer-in-charge just the height takes this time beyond hyprocisy into farce. Yes, beyond satire. Farce.
1
How much does Mike Pence know about all of the wrong doings in the administration? He might actually be in some trouble as well if he knowingly enabled Trump to go about committing his deplorable deeds.
2
Not worried. Pence will be a fine seat warmer for the ten minutes between Trump and a real election. Also, human nature being what it is, I bet the second impeachment will be easier than the first. If Trump is ejected it would mean that Pence is the Vice President of a poisoned tree. Would he be legitimate??? President Pelosi anyone?
1
Pence is Trump's life insurance policy. If the GOP was smart, they would do what they did with Agnew and get him resigned and replaced before Trump is out. But the GOP isn't smart, so.....
1
We are instructed by the Framers of the Impeachment Clause in our Constitution to act. Conjuring a more compelling case is beyond imagination. To not act is to nullify this constitutional provision. This self-dealing POTUS is an individual possessed of no identifiable virtue, dispossessed of no serious vice (his strict abstinence of alcohol consumption can be seen as a perversion of the virtue of moderation). His biography is a litany of betrayal, after betrayal, as a family man, businessman, and as a citizen. One would be reckless in the extreme to hire such an individual to mow their lawn. But greed and bigotry, the twin essences of his campaign and administration (and what fuels the ravenous insistence for the wall) are what has not been betrayed. No disguise (con) there. Among his retained support, the importance of character, basic decency, religion, patriotism and attachment to our democratic form of government have been subordinated to his depraved agenda.
Unfortunately the Republican party doesn't offer many profiles in courage or tolerance or forward-thinking. All of them are looking back over their shoulders at The Base; and is it base. They have become the party of traditionalism defined as the defenders of white male heterosexual privilege with a lot of Plessy v. Ferguson tossed in for flavor.
In a speech recently Barack Obama posited that Donald Trump is the product of a bigger problem, part of which is a GOP that is beholden to its benefactors, a GOP that has become so psychotically insular in its thought that it cannot identity, sympathize, or debate other perspectives. We’ve seen this behavior in the way regulators have been replaced by the regulated, the tax cut, the lack of proper debate about Supreme Court nominees, and so on. This is the side of the GOP we see, and voters understand that as the results of the last election indicate. The side we don’t see much of are the far right evangelical Christians like Mike Pence and their agenda. The media gave Trump credibility in the 2016 election. Will it enable far right evangelicals also?
5
Pence may be unsuitable as president, but he's better than Trump and if he were to get the job, you wouldn't have to worry about either of them running in 2020.
1
Well yesterday Pence made a speech, before a group of Anti-Choice demonstrators. If my notes are correct, he said he looks forward to the day, when Roe versus Wade is overturned, and
"..we restore the sanctity of Life in American Law"..
So a Pence presidency could be the first step to a Religious Theocracy, with pregnant women subject to government edict to carry a pregnancy to term as "incubators" . Women who have a miscarriage, could be subject to arrest, or even imprisonment under suspicion of an abortion.
As for Pence's treatment of LGBQT, see the Handmaids Tale..
8
The press should start exercising caution; don’t start off treating Pence’s possible candidacy like the joke that was Trump’s. Don’t let Pence’s idiosyncratic behavior be a running joke instead of a serious analysis of his policy decisions and who’s actually making them—NOW!
11
Pence's career was on the decline when Trump chose him. Wasn't Trump turned down by three or four people before Pence was invited to be his running mate? Pence offered Trump no intellectual strength or competing star power on the campaign trail.
5
Yes, the thought of a President Pence is not comforting, but our country needs to address some very serious policy issues, ranging from immigration & taxation to healthcare & the environment. The chaos of the current White House is nothing but a distraction from the stealth policies of both parties, particularly the low-tax, low regulation Republicans. We need more calm in the executive branch in order that both political parties can be held accountable. Now it's like operating in a hurricane. Nothing constructive is happening, we're just hanging on for dear life.
4
Pence could have been dangerous with unified Republican government, but if he were to ascend to the presidency with the democrats in charge of Congress to counter him, there wouldn't be much to worry about.
5
The hopeful scenario is that Trump in run out of office, Pence takes over and then pardons Trump. The public is outraged and Pence loses the 2020 election. Cross your fingers and hope for the best.
9
Perhaps one of the major reasons Trump chose Pence for his VP was the awful prospect of a President Pence that Ms. Collins describes. It was Trump's "job security" backup in case he actually won the election that he did not expect.
This was especially true when Ryan was Speaker of the House. After all, if Pence went down after Trump, we'd still have a President Ryan to deal with.
Now, we have Nancy Pelosi as Speaker.
If Pence went down, we'd have President Pelosi. That would drive the Trump base more insane than President Obama.
It's a pleasant thought to some of us.
13
We should remember that Russian interference in favor of Donald Trump in 2016 was also intereference in favor of Mike Pence. Vice President Pence is no more legitimate in his office than President Trump.
16
@Skeptic: You across the pond. apparently don't know much about Mike Pence.
His level of Christianity makes evangelicals uncontrollably giddy about themselves, giving them (in reality or perception) the hope that America will become the kind of Christian nation they salivate over.
I'll admit that as a Senator, I heard nothing to speak of about him; however, as Govermor of Indiana, even his own constituents hated him. He was also in on the lie Trump made to 5,000 employees at Carrier, their jobs would be safe.
As much as I cringed when Trump won the presidency, the notion of a President Pence makes me nauseous.
1
Is there a credible scenario in which special counsel Mueller implicates Mr. Pence along with Mr. Trump? It would be more than just idle speculation. Both end up resigning and House speaker Pelosi becomes president.
9
The best that could be said about Pence is that he is low drama and will not be able to inflame Trump's base. Sure, the church ladies will flock to him but the white nationalists? Not so much. He isn't fun and would be unlikely to suggest they beat up protesters or the press. Talk about low bars!
He would implement the Koch agenda, but he is already doing that. Trump doesn't know anybody, really. All the appointments he has made came straight from Pence who got their names from the Kochs.
Come the next election, Pence wouldn't inspire any following and would be defeated. The Kochs and their fellows would do all the mud-slinging they could using hundreds of millions of dollars to keep him in office, but I think it would be money wasted.
2
Remember when Al Gore tried to intimidate George W. Bush by stomping up to him during a debate? It backfired mightily when Bush smiled and nodded at him, then went about his business.
Now imagine Pence in the same position as a presidential candidate facing any of the possible female Democratic nominees. The picture of him scrambling off the stage in terror reflects his attitude towards women perfectly.
3
Pence ran Trump's transition team. The idea that "he did not know" of over 114 contacts with Russians beggars the mind. I am hoping Mueller is working his magic on Pence as well.
18
Yes, Pence is also a horror, but a completely dif. kind of horror. One that would follow normal protocols of office, listen to daily briefings, not embarrass America when abroad (I believe), not tweet as a general means of communication, possibly bring back daily news room briefings w (possible) REAL NEWS, pick advisors that would not end up under indictment within say 6 months, and basically mimic what Americans recognize as a President (likely from either the 1950s or 1850s, it’s hard to say).
As mentioned, I wouldn’t be afraid that an off-color comment or even a perfectly normal comment would cause him to start WWIII or attempt to use nuclear options. While I don’t agree with ANY of his political stances, I also don’t think that these beliefs stem from the beginnings of dementia and/or seriously problematic NPD.
And I think that democrats have a fair to very good chance to beat him in the 2020 elections, as opposed to Trump, which is anyone’s guess, bc actually saying things like “I could shoot a person dead on Fifth Ave. and not be charged” causes not a ripple in his popularity.
People will clearly disagree, but I feel more comfortable with a president who clearly puts his prejudices front & center while acting like a generally normal person is preferable to one who changes ideas daily, has thinner skin than a 1-celled organism & still acts (for reasons unknown) as a Russian stooge.
It’s just a personal opinion.
2
The other BIG thing in favor of a President Pence is that he seems far less likely to win an election in 2020. In addition to bringing a lot of serious attack ad fodder from his record, he's boring, uncharismatic and weird. In our current, media-fueled political climate, it is hard to imagine the American electorate going for him.
6
Pence President? Even when proven elections were rigged? Don’t we need honestly democratically elected leaders only?
8
@Kees
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: As long as the outdated Electoral College and campaign finances from big-moneyed invested interests are allowed to roll-in unchecked -- there'll be little hope of "honestly democratically elected leaders".
4
I am sure that in Pence's 11th year in Congress that he finally had to gumption to ask one of his colleagues: "So just what is legislation and how to your make it?"
3
I worry that putting Pence in the White House will give the Republicans a reprieve they don’t deserve. Game this out: Trump leaves the White House in disgrace. Pence steps in to “heal the nation” and basically does nothing over the ensuing two years to get himself in trouble. Because of the circumstances, Pence gets the benefit of the doubt as people rally around the leader just as they rallied around Ford. Pence doesn’t face a challenger as strong as Ford faced in Reagan. Come Election Day 2020, Pence wins reelection carrying the same states Trump carried.
Now game out the alternative. Trump stays in office. With the House under Pelosi’s control, he can’t pass any laws. He continues his incompetence and corruption so that even a portion of the Trump base “gets” it. Republican officeholders continue to support Trump, lemming-like, as they try to avoid being primaried. Completely disgusted with the Republican Party, the vast majority of Americans hand the next Democratic presidential nominee (whoever it is) a landslide electoral victory that also sweeps Mitch McConnell (who is up for reelection in 2020) out of office. Republicans wander in the political desert for a generation while the Democratic Party enacts campaign finance reform, restores fair taxation of the wealthy, appoints liberal judgers restores our international reputation, addresses gerrymandering, and works with other countries to address climate change.
We can survive 2 more years. We survived RMN.
1
Let's go back to first principles - in what universe does Mitch McConnell back impeachment of a Republican President? Any Republican President. It's kind of like Trump said during the campaign - he could shoot someone dead in the street and still be President, but, as it turns out, thanks to the Mitch and Co. in the Senate. So, if there is no way the Republicans would ever consider this, we should stop talking about it and focus on my other favorite "I" word - Indictment. I would settle for an indictment. In fact, I would prefer it. What could be better than to have Mitch & Co., but also Republicans in general in 2020 have to decide whether to nominate an indicted candidate? If I could pay money to watch that, I would. And if they did back an indicted candidate, and he actually won (not an entirely bonkers scenario) then the people would have spoken and we obviously would have bigger issues to talk about as a society than whether Donald or Mike would be a worse President.
1
@sgoodwin
Agree. And on top of that, here's an even better scenario: "Mitch & Co." have also got to go -- which won't seem too unrealistic as Trump's boat appears to be closer to finally going down.
2
Mike was on his way to becoming a one-term governor of Indiana until Trump picked him up to become the elf in White Hmouse meetings. Our current albeit Republican Governor seems to be much better than either Mitch Daniel or Mike were.
1
Pence is not smart enough to think for himself and as such would be the perfect vessel to install a Theocracy. This would be the first step to the "Gilead" being formed. Pence is a natural servant and easily controlled by those he sees as the "right" kind of leaders. He would be led by the Bible Study Group that is presently enshrined in the White House. And if you think this would be good remember that "your" religion may not be approved. This is why it is so important to maintain the separation of Church and State. That is the only way to keep the State out of your religion and your religion out of our State.
3
@george
That might be all well and good .... BUT, you seem to forget that both Mr. Pence and his brother, Greg, who now sits in the House of Representatives have close ties to the Mercers and the Koch Bros. -- and with that amount of money, anything is possible.
2
This makes me laugh and cry at the same time. What to do, what to do?
Two truly awful choices.
3
Pence is awful, but won't last long. He knows far too much--and has all along.
2
Given what we already publicly know about the conspiracy of the Trump/Pence campaign to collude with a hostile foreign power to throw the election, and what the Mueller report will undoubtedly flesh out, I would argue that this entire administration, including Pence, is illegitimate. And that if Trump were impeached, Pence should be also.
All hail President Pelosi.
5
My hope is that Meuller has found something actionable in regards to this sniveling wimp of a man, Pence. A man who has proven himself willing to dump his deeply held " Christian" values in service to his proximity to power. Jesus would be so proud of this disciple and his brave leadership. Proud of his unfailing willingness to stand for what is right and against those who would do harm to the country that he swore an oath to defend. If he ends up as President, we will be led by an even more hypocritical, power hungry and dangerous man. Authoritarianism wrapped in religion. I am praying for a miricle.. not from God, but from Mr. Mueller. Based on current events, I think he is paying more attention to us than the other guy.
2
Pence imitates a bobble head doll very well. Has he made a single statement indicating a presidential capability?
However:
Reality says the Senate would not convict on impeachment if Trump walked into the chambers and shot someone, as long as the victim was a Democrat.
Reality says the process wouldn't get close to the end before 2020.
Reality says, spend our thoughts and prayers on hoping that Congress can prevent the worst damage until voters can end this nightmare in 2020.
1
If, Trump is Impeached and Pence step in as President - he would be elected in 2020 - the South and Mid West LOVE Mike Pence for all the reason Gail Collins' has mentioned makes Pence scary to all the rest of us.
As much as I cannot stand saying this - Trump and Pence need to remain and be Impeached together by being voted out of office in 2020. -- then - Trump can be arrested for all the felonies that are piling up - and sent to prison.
2
I read that Pence was being lobbied to pack the civil service with evangelicals so they would be in a position to block government services they don't like. The First Amendment says there can be "no religious test for office", so they're trying to lobby Pence to do something illegal. I haven't heard what Pence's response was.
I'm a lot more worried about this than what Pence calls his wife, or his excessive caution about avoiding situations where he could be accused of sexual harassment.
Gail Collins should really get her priorities straight.
@Charlesbalpha
Not sure that “they” even need to lobby him. No doubt that is what he plans to do on his own, just look at Betsy.
If Pence is not an agent of the Kremlin, nor devoted to destroying an international order that has protected the sovereignty and independence of the great majority of countries, no matter how small or weak ...
Then yes, President Pence would be an improvement of vast consequence.
As an Indiana resident, I can attest that a President Pence would be an alarming mistake. When Pence was picked as VP candidate, Hoosiers were delighted. We would be free of him! Never did we think Trump would win. Pence is bent on cramming his religious worldview down the throats of every American.
As Indiana governor, Pence successfully managed to sneak an anti-LGBTQ religious freedom bill against the advice of the CEOs of Indiana’s largest employers. Pence turned the Department of Child Services into the lifestyle police. Child removals became routine without any evidence of abuse or neglect. The list of offenses to civil liberties are endless.
Putting up with Trump for two more years is far from ideal, but a President Pence would be worse.
7
@Daniel Thomas
I tend to listen and defer to the good people of Indiana when it comes to Mike Pence -- too bad America didn't listen to New Yorkers when it came to our warnings about Donald Trump.
5
Let's not forget the HIV epidemic that sprung up in Indiana after Pence cut clinic funds. Family values, man.
The best scenario is the House ties up the administration with endless hearings, impeaches Trump late this year and the Senate holds a trial during primary season next year.
3
Mr Trump is the result of a compromised election and Mr Pence is poison fruit from the same tree. The best-case scenario would be to impeach them both, and Justice Kavanaugh to boot. Then with a single nomination, a President Pelosi could restore some credibility to all 3 branches of government.
6
Pence primarily breaks the law about separation of Church and State. The Constitution says there can be no religious intolerance, no matter what the religion.
It turns out Thomas Jefferson was a big believer in Walls, too, the Wall of separation between Church and State. He also believed that the law of government could only apply to actions, not opinions. To him, religious belief, however ardently held, was only opinion. Laws could not be based on it.
In 1801, he set the record straight in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship,
"that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions,"
I support "the act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.'"
I like Jefferson's Wall, not Trump's. With Pence, his putting personal religious opinion over US law is a danger to women and the LGBTQ community. His extreme form of personal religious belief should never become law.
As to his vague and tacit approval of Trump's actions, I sense Pence may be quiet, but still dangerous to America.
12
I’m not sure the First Amendment should be conflated with a law, even if there is some technical similarity.
We tend to think laws as things that can be instituted by legislative bodies, like congress or a town council. They can be easily instituted and easily repealed (easily as in the procedure, not necessarily the negotiating process.)
Constitutional amendments, on the other hand, are very hard to make and carry with them greater weight. They tend to deal with larger rights. They reflect our deeper values. They are less statutory and more descriptive of larger principals.
The Supreme Court can rule on the constitutionality of a law but cannot rule on the legality of a constitutional amendment. The members of the court must be bound by an amendment even if they disagree with it.
So it says too little to describe the First Amendment as a law. And it does not say there can be no religious intolerance, an ambiguous phrase at best. It does say that the government cannot establish an official state religion nor can it prevent the exercise of any religion. People, on the other hand, can be as individually intolerant as they want to be.
Pence is free to be a religious zealot and a personal jerk as long as he doesn’t seek to legislate his personal bigotry.
Given his record in Indiana, one of the most conservative states in the union, one positive of Pence might be that a few years with him in charge might doom a presidential run in 2020. On the other hand, do we really need Domionist theology added to the list of extreme policies enacted by this hideous administration?
8
President Pence in 2019? Yes, please. After hitching his wagon to Donald Trump, Pence would be an ineffective lame-duck President the moment he assumed the big chair in the Oval Office. He’d be marking time until a Democrat moved back in, in 2021.
Possible Pence 2020 campaign slogans:
Being Able to Judge Character Isn’t Everything: Pence 2020
Make America Great Again, Again: Pence 2020
Donald Who?: Pence 2020
12
No worries. They’re all going down. If I’m wrong on this, we will reap the whirlwind.
306
@RjW
You joke, but it's no joke.
Pence has kept his distance, and so may not go down with Trump.
He is less inept than Trump, and so may be vastly more dangerous.
47
The following true story about Pence has to be spread far and wide. When running for office in Indiana, he had his personal expenses paid out of campaign funds, for 7 months. Did he pay quarterly tax payments on that? If so, let's see the proof. If none is provided, then he clearly tried to evade taxes.
16
Just to defend Pence's peccadillo about the company of women, Truman was the same way, unable to stand even being in the presence of a woman (that wasn't his spouse) without the presence of a third, male, party. As for his record in Congress, LBJ also avoided passing or sponsoring any legislation during his 12 years in the House, years in which he would frequently post not even a single speech in the Congressional Record.
It's probably too much to hope that that history will lead Pence to propose a new Fair Deal and a new era of civil rights, but at least we ought to focus on the man's moral deficiencies rather than his venial ones.
1
@MC
LBJ was in 1951 and 1952 the Senate Majority Whip. In 1953, he took over as Democratic Party leader in the Senate, first as minority then later as majority. The function of these positions to ensure passage of legislation within the Senate (unlike the current Republican leadership in the Senate, who thinks his function is to prevent passage of legislation). It was for these abilities that Johnson was chosen as Kennedy’s VP.
This is quite different than Pence, a completely colorless individual with no accomplishments, whose sole attribute is sycophancy.
3
@MC
Pence’s “venial” moral deficiencies would affect real people...like half of our population (women)and another good chunk of folks who identify as LGBTQ. He could do a lot of mortal damage to those of us who identify as such. He is a danger no matter how you slice it!
1
Of course the Pences' see nothing wrong about teaching in a school which certain groups of people are not allowed. That line of thinking is part of the philosophy they embrace. Mike Pence realized that when he left the governor's office in Indiana his political life would be over, so he jumped at the chance to be V.P. even though he despised Trump. Now like the lap dog he is he remains very quiet. Pence fits the 19th Century better than this one.
8
President Trump is awesome, a President Pence could quite possibly be even better. MAGA!!!
2
I wonder how hard it was for the people searching for a vp for Trump to find Pence. The only qualification was as bad or worse and Mitch McConnell wasn’t available.
4
Agnew like Pence two men who were corrupted by their time in office
1
Trump has to go even though I like his mind set to get 2000 troops out of Syria and get us out of Afghanistan....what Gail u want our troops to stay. Pence and Mother we can deal with for a year or 2.
2
Trump's insurance policy = Pence
8
Impeach, try and remove 'em both...Pence doesn't have clean hands by any stretch of the imagination.
12
What did he know and when did he know it?
Two years ago, when Mike Pence was a VP candidate and was still governor of Indiana, he refused to pardon Keith Cooper, an African American man who needed that pardon to be cleared of a wrongful armed robbery conviction. There was an online petition which got 113,000 signatures. Mr. Cooper's pardon became a political issue in Indiana's gubernatorial election. His story is the one which would tell people about Mike Pence and racism.
The New York Times has never really taken an interest in Keith Cooper's story, but we are at the time when its relevance demands discussion. The Times should quit ignoring Cooper's story.
At least ProPublica has covered it.
15
Mike Pence seems to have one facial expression. It reminds me of Buzz Lightyear.
13
Gulp! His wife is teaching at a school that bans gays? Well, the first thought that comes to mind is that what thinking, sane American, gay or not, would want "Mother Pence" to teach them. Yikes, and what about a sex ed class? Most likely it relates only to marriage and the marital act whereas the "mother" is submissive and "daddy" is demanding. Seriously... And say what you want, I still contend that Pence does not trust himself, i.e., his sexual urges when it comes to mixed company. That man is a bundle of repression and suppression, awaiting implosion.
Now, who is worse Pence or Trump? This is the way I figure it... We have only two more years of this group, God willing. (Please, please, please.) And as ominous as a Pence presidency would be, it can not compare with the utter corruption, narcissism, amorality, and debauchery of Trump. Our nation can not sustain itself - heck, I can hardly sustain myself - with Mr. Trump at the helm. Every possible characteristic we would not want in a leader and even a human being is etched into, invasive, and pervasive within the psyche, soulless soul, and heartless heart of Donald T. So..if and hopefully when he is put out to pasture, we still have one heroine who is third in line for the presidency...Nancy Pelosi. Alleluia! And, boy, I would love to see her devour Pence...
13
Amen!
Read Marlon Bundo.
2
Funny to see the proponents of #metoo mocking Vice President Pence for having the good sense to not put himself in a compromising situation with another woman - even if that means refusing to dine alone with a woman other than his wife. Can't have it both ways liberals.
4
Well if the president can't express self control should he he really have his hands on the nuclear codes?
But seriously the his being alone with women thing is the least of the the things to which many object to him. If that were all it would be a welcome 180 degrees to "hands on" Trump.
2
@Alan Hmm. So, by your analysis having dinner alone with a woman who is not your significant other is compromising? My, my. All of those dinners I had with women co-workers really tempted me....not. It was dinner.
3
@Alan
what we want is men who treat women like real and equal people, not like things to be dominated or abused. you've set up a false either/or situation for men.
4
If Trump leaves town we're left with unctuous, obsequious, sycophantic pious Pence. And once you crack open that veneer you get nothing, nothing at all... save for bigotry, religious extremism, sleaziness and weirdness par excellence. The devil you know is perhaps preferable to the one you don't. Take your pick.
12
Not to worry. If Trump is impeached for getting the Russians to help him win the election, then that election should be nullified and all of his toadies and appointments tossed out as well – including his running mate, what's his face. And that puts Nancy Pelosi in the White House. Republicans all over the land would have to fall on their golf clubs.
9
Gail doesn't like Pence's rules but I bet his wife does! Why should he have dinner alone with another woman when he's married? Most wives (or husbands) wouldn't like that.
2
Wrong. Most wives in a committed relationship trust their husbands to have dinner with friends or colleagues of either sex.
1
Pence headed the campaign and brought Manafort in. So Pence is dirty too. I say impeach them both and make Nancy Pelosi the first woman president!
8
Well,there is an actual ‘silver lining’ in impeaching Trump!
Still better than Trump.
If you believe Mike Flynn had to leave for lying to Mike Pence, I’ve got an Oval Office to sell ya.
6
Root for him.
How much harm in less than two years.]
Pence = Ford.
Easier to defeat than Trump in 2020.
History rhymes.
1
@Prof
I was in college in the 1970s after Watergate. Ford was admired as a humble, honest man who knew his Presidency was accidental and didn't try to throw his weight around. His big blunder was pardoning Nixon, and that's what cost him the election.
1
If Mike Pence were truly a religious man he would not have thrown all of his "convictions" under the bus in service of his craven ambition to become POTUS.
15
@Amy
Since Pence claims to be a conventional Christian, I wonder what his reaction is to the theory ( promoted by several "evangelicals") that Trump is the reincarnation of an ancient Persian god-king?
One administration, so many different kinds of crazy. That's a kind of diversity, I guess?
12
Gail Collins, you have a huge fan club and it includes me. Thanks for another smart, sly, salient column full of unpleasant truths.
13
Before Nixon went, there was Agnew. Don't think that Pence is innocent.
Neither does Pence command the fervid support of trump's 'base.' He's boring, ineffectual, and not the kind of 'strange' that is fun at rallies.
While you invoke the nightmare of a 'Pence' presidency, Gail, imagine the Republicans who are secretly kept awake at night by the prospect of a............Pelosi presidency. Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4
Trump or Pence?
What a pathetic choice.
God, I hope nothing disastrous, requiring intelligence, courage, honesty, and patriotism occurs before we have an actual president again.
12
Jeez.... a squeeze
a rock and a hard place
heads he wins, tails we lose
8
“Never thought much about Mike, did you?”
Well, yes, along with millions of other American women (and men), members of the LBGTQ community, HIV and AIDS sufferers, and anyone who still believes in the Separation of Church and State, I’ve thought a lot about “Father” Pence as president, and “Mother” Pence as “First Handmaiden,” if Trump leaves office before 2020.
We currently have a president who tells us that he makes decisions based on his “gut,” but is that worse than Mike Pence, who, as he notoriously did as governor when faced with an unprecedented AIDS epidemic in Indiana in 2015, opted for “prayer?”
“Gut” vs “God” isn’t much of a choice for presidential decision-making, but, I also fear that our “potted plant” vice-president, once in office, could turn out to be a “Triffid” in disguise.
12
If the current administration is found to be invalidated due to election interference by a foreign government with the leadership of the ruling party co-conspirators why should that party still form the government? Shouldn't there be an election as soon as possible and the current government not allowed to bring new laws or any new bills moving forward? And if there is a new administration after the election then shouldn't all the policies of the last government be re-examined because the will of the people was subverted?
11
I hope you don’t really believe any of that is possible (especially a speedy do-over on the election). If Mr. Trump goes it’ll be President Pence until January 2021.
@ERT
You are correct, the wheels of justice move slowly. But these are strange times. There is a level of uncertainty with the madness of the last couple years. Lots of things happened that no one thought possible. One lives in hope.
12 years. Not a single piece of legislation. Thank you Gail for that genuinely important fact that I’m quite sure none us of knew. Outside of all of the headline grabbing nonsense, that is truly illustrative of the incredible mediocrity of this man and I’m sure a number of other congressional members. We all know people who show up for work but produce little or nothing and effectively make zero contribution. It occasionally bothers us a little and then we go back to work. But should such man become CEO, that would infuriate me.
11
I have greater worries and fear about Pence in the White House than DT remaining there. It is Pence's rigid views about religion and women's rights that he would likely impose once in greater control and less in thrall of Individual One.
13
The republicans are like the saudi princelings, sanctimonious hypocrite in the name of their religion. Except the saudis squeeze the earth for oil for their vulgar opulence, while the republicance squeeze the american workers.
16
Hollow sanctimony, thy name is Pence.
16
Pence is guilty of all sorts of stuff, too. He was "in charge" of the Transition Team where a whole bunch of evil stuff happened, and other crimes. He was Manafort's pick!!! He was far behind in the polls even to be governor again and booed in public. The only good thing about him is he'll be gone in 2020.
We simply can't let even one day get by without removing that maniac from the office he stole with Russian help. And he makes us less safe and less prosperous daily. He is the new cancer on the presidency.
8
The good news with Pence as president is that, unlike the present occupant, he has a brain.
The bad news with Pence as president is that his brain is a few centuries too late.
3
How the tables can turn. So then it'll be the wounded stained President Pence trying to get an even bigger loser ratified as Vice President before the Democratic House. He'll be so flummoxed that he'll be begging to be impeached himself.
Mike Pence is as dull as wet newspaper. As I understand it, he was about to be lose his job and taking the veep spot was kind of a hail mary. Not very bright. Very beatable. May he be the Republican candidate in 2020.
9
Pence should be rejected along with Trump!!!
4
Why impeach? trump is the greatest weapon available for the complete destruction of the republican party. Go donald, shoot your mouth off some more!
8
And then what? One party rule?
No, thank you. I’d rather see the Republican Party regain their senses.
"...or eat a meal alone with any woman he’s not married to."
Alrighty then --
So - what happens when President Pence is invited to a private afternoon tea by -- Her Royal Highness, Queen Elizabeth II -??
4
Pence is the reason I have been against impeachment all along. We could feasibly get stuck with him for 10 years. He is a hateful bigot hiding behind the ruse of being a 'Christian'. Christ would not act or talk like Pence.
11
The only good thing about pence is that he has none of the “charisma” of trump and would not be re-elected
1
Well Pence supports all of Trump's sins. And now his wife has become a sinner. Working outside the home and all. Getting harder and harder to enter the pearly gates without someone stopping him and saying : "Hang on a second, Mike. We'd like to ask you a few questions". Pence is sort of like being the head of U.S Gymnastics. As long as we get the gold medals, what was done on the way up surely doesn't matter. I am sure Mike feels the separated children, the maligned immigrants, the porn stars, Dr. Blasey Ford, and many others were simply trying to milk the spotlight. Just like all those gymnasts who should have been at home washing the dishes and setting the table instead of trying to make the Olympic team. I imagine if those boys had just changed out of their cassocks and surplices in the parking lot instead of the vestibule, none of that would have happened. It's so easy to stick your head in the sand rather than confront people like Trump.
6
My high school friend and classmate's father and mine were leaders of the LaPorte county Republican party. He went on to statewide offices and was a delegate to the GOP convention, interested in Kasich until he saw the enthusiasm at a Trump rally.
Before voting for Trump as one of Indiana's 11 Electors, he called me. He explained that despite ongoing concerns, he would vote for him (though not required to despite election results) "because Mike, my old friend and colleague will provide the needed wisdom and information". He dismissed my pointing to the Constitution's idea of the E.C. serving as a screen against unqualified candidates who had gotten popular support.
For 26 months now, he hasn't responded to my repeated question via email and in person "How is Mike doing with that?"
8
Not to say it isn’t weird, his avoiding women other than his wife in potentially compromising situations, but in this day it is weirdly understandable.
A minister friend has very similar rules for being with women in private after having seen minister friends accused of unwanted sexual advances (falsely, according to them).
It is unfortunate that enough men have done enough awful things that others have chosen to amend their behavior - some more weirdly than others - to insure themselves from reproach.
4
Haiku
Manafort chose Pence;
Dollar Donald, half-a-Pence...
Job to pardon trump.
8
While article is charming and accurate,politicians and opinions have to be much smarter than this. People who voted for Trump don’t care about Syria or climate change - whoever runs for president next needs to speak to those people.
4
At least he’s probably not in Putin’s pocket (although we can’t be sure). But the commonality with Trump is he’s also a total phoney. Like all those evangelicals who love Trump while claiming to love Jesus and quote the Ten Commandments - including “thou shall not commit adultery” or “thou shall not break lifelong marriage vows” or “verily thou shall not grab a woman in their crotch”. All hypocrits.
8
This is assuming that Pence isn't caught up in the malfeasance of the Trump administration. Considering his long ties to Manafort I find that to be unlikely. The question will soon be "what did Pence know and when did he know it?"
I'd also add the Pence has zero charisma and would never win in 2020.
President Pelosi has a nice alliterative quality to it.
13
@todji
That wouldn't happen. If Donald Trump were to be impeached, incoming president Mike Pence would simply name a new vice president before new articles of impeachment could be drawn up against Pence, etc.
The only way the third in line would become president were if a catastrophe were to take out the president and the vice president at the same time.
1
Two very long years ago, I saw a sign during the first Women's March: "IMPEACH PENCE FIRST." America missed its chance then to experience President Ryan. But now? President Pelosi anyone?
Sigh. Perhaps you can tell I spent the holidays in Washington, Oregon, and California--three of the states where they've legalized political speculation. It no longer requires a prescription.
4
@Robert Bott
And apparently you don't work at a company that randomly tests from time to time.
1
If Donald Trump were to leave office, the ensuing scandal would taint Mike Pence, too. In the same way that Gerald Ford, a much better man, was rendered toothless when he replaced Richard Nixon, Congress and Republican challengers would ignore, stymie, and oppose him.
You can't think about a President Pence in a vacuum. Collins is right; this isn't a man that very many people would want in the Oval Office. But, that's the thing; there is no way that charisma-less Mike Pence would ever get there UNLESS he was the back end of a national nightmare.
In terms of neutering the Trump and Republican agendas, a year and a half of President Pence would be a good thing.
4
And why are Mike Pence's marriage "rules" any business of NYT and its liberal chorus of commenters? Why do you think his marriage is any sicker than the Clintons' marriage? Or the Wiener (Anthony, famous for texting..) marriage? In any case, why is it our business?
3
@me -- Pence is the guy who brought this up, not anybody else. And the obvious implication is that his wife or family don't trust him in such matters.
3
It is our business because these Evangelicals think that America should live by their credo. They don’t understand and don’t accept diversity. They are old fashioned and belong to the 19th century.
1
I'm thinking this: Trump's unpredictability is a reflection of his lack of agenda and purpose, other than to turn everything inside out and throw out what once passed as a playbook for the presidency. The bull in the china closet is going to do it's share of damage but it will be random and without purpose, as bulls usually are. The really good service is harder to reach Even if the everyday ware is smashed to smithereens, the priceless bone china requires more than one key. Pence as Prez as faithful Christian foot soldier of the Right would happily march onward to assure that the damage is intentional, calculated and complete in the destruction of liberal ideals. Better the raging bull without direction than the sharpshooter for hire with trained foresight.
2
There is a heck of a lot of things you can pin on Pence, but the thing about not having a meal alone with a women sounds like basic HR policy these days.
Don't you wish NY luminaries like Schniderman, Spitzer and Weiner would have followed suit. Heck, if this was government HR policy the entire Kennedy clan would collapse into a black hole.
2
@Tom -- nobody sane cares about "having lunch." The issues with Spitzer, Weiner and Schniderman were not about lunch.
1
Pence is basically afraid of himself. I don't see why, he has about as much charisma as a concrete block. His personal "lodestar" is his wife, if he cannot see her and she cannot see him, then he is in trouble.
But he has to remember that if he becomes President, either by hook or crook, that he is president of all of the people in the US and he loses his right to damn the LBGTQ regardless of what his personal religious view are. If Trump is impeached or resigns, Pence will show his religious colors if he pardons him like Ford pardoned Nixon. If he pardons him, then he has about the same level of religiosity as the chipmunk in my yard.
2
If you dump Trump, you end the oligarchy. But if you then get Pence, you're in for a theocracy. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
12
@mjan I would not worry about a theocracy, according the Pew research, there are about as man non-Christians in this country as Christian and insofar as Christians ae concerned, there is good reason why, like the the city I grew up in, there was a different church on every corner of main intersections, they simply do not agree. In one instance, there were two Methodist Churches on one intersection. Evangelicals and fundamentalists do not have the political clout that they had just several years ago.
In addition, theocracies do work and will not stand. Case in point, look at Calvin's Geneva
@Bill Dooley OOPs, Theocracies do not work and they will not stand. I left out a word.
1
What a pair. Trump wants to put up a wall, and Pence wants to tear one down.
If only we could switch their plans, and build a stronger wall between church and state, and tear down the one that divides two allies with common interests.
1092
@R Mandl I have a better idea; build a wall that separates normal people from the likes of Trump and Pence.
46
How about BOTH Trump and Pence are impeached! After all, Pence was in charge of the transition team and was told specifically about Flynn via certified mail to his person from Elijah Cummings and still allowed Flynn to be hired as National Security director. So, there is no way Flynn’s revelations of promising Russia relief of sanctions was new to him. Not only did Flynn lie, but Trump lies saying he fired him because he lied to Pence and Pence was less than forthcoming, in acknowledging what he already knew. This was obstruction of justice involving all three men in colluding with Russia to lift sanctions that were legally set to impose some punishment of Russia for interfering in our elections, with or without help from Trump’s campaign but increasingly looking more like working with Russia to win the election, not for the good of our country but to benefit themselves. The day of reckoning is coming. Justice will be served.
15
Pence ascending to the position would have the christian right in full rapture. A Christian theocracy in the making with the implementation of essentially a set of laws that would look like Christian Sharia. Freedom of religion in the first amendment would be the first thing to go.
18
I think I'd be more scared of a President Pence. However, that does not mean that I'm not in favor of impeachment if it is warranted. At this point, it certainly looks like it is. Pence becoming president is the most legally responsible outcome of this whole situation... unless he too is implicated in Trump's crimes. Then it's President Pelosi, right?
13
I firmly believe the evidence will show Pence knew about the Russian dealings and did nothing. He should be impeached, too. Their actions are treason!
If Trump proves anything he adds absolute validity to the fact that ANYONE can become President of the United States so long as they meet the Constitutional requirements. He also proved that a President can scare a Congress into total inaction. He also proved that the Republican party will abandon it long held stated platform for personal gain. But most of all he proved that our Democratic system can be easily manipulated by so few individuals.
16
It should be clear by now that whether trump, pence or much of congress, the ordinary American is no longer represented in Washington. We're needed when these politicians want to get elected because we have votes. Once in office, we are discarded as the elected officials turn toward satisfying the needs and greed of corporations, donors and the wealthy.
Almost 250 years ago the colonists wised up and gave King George something to think about. When will ordinary Americans do the same and take back our statehouses and government?
27
@wihiker -- the citizen who is well-represented in Washington is a white guy who likes to assault women, and expects impunity to do so a right of his "meritocracy."
I might be wrong here, but I think that Pence might be easier to stomach. He is almost the very definition of "bland." He is not a raging egotist. He's not that bright, but he's smart enough to not try to override the Constitution, bully Congress, start a war for no apparent reason, collude with the Russians, get rich on the taxpayer's money, or shut down the government if he doesn't get his way. He lies, but I tend to think that he lies are devised to show his loyalty to Trump and not because he is trying to pull a fast one. And if Trump vacated his throne, Pence would be president for only two years.
292
@Jackie
Agree to a point. The thing with TRump, we know most of what he does, either because he is blatant about it or the media finds out. Pence is sneaky and he will do many bad things behind the scene.
192
@Jackie I agree, fellow Missourian. I also detect that he is mostly a frightened person, and will likely be afraid as well as bland, as you so rightly suggest.
29
why should pence show loyalty to trump?? he can't be fired.
20
To me, I think of one thing as it relates to a possible President Pence= The Handmaids Tale.
841
By the time Governor Mike Pence was kicked upstairs to the White House, many Hoosiers were glad to see him go. The state “religious freedom” law he championed nearly cost Indiana its NCAA headquarters and numerous corporate expansions in Indiana - until he signed a modified version that did not permit LBGTQ discrimination. His attacks on Planned Parenthood forced it, the sole public health provider in southern Indiana, to close with disastrous results: HIV rates from shared needles exploded since PP was not available to conduct the HIV testing and public health counseling that had helped combat Indiana’s opioid epidemic. Pence literally said he had to “pray on it.” After two months of dithering, while local law enforcement and public health officials were calling for him to approve a needle exchange program to stem the epidemic, he finally relented.
He has been linked with Christian Dominionism, a militant form of Christianity that seeks the imposition of a government based upon (his) “Christian” principles. He is a dangerous zealot and is fundamentally opposed to secular constitutional government. He would have happily burned “witches” at the stake in Salem or been Spain’s Grand Inquisitor.
Were he to become President, I hope and think he would be as inept as he was as Indiana’s governor and frighten normal people, with the result that he would be President for a partial term and be soundly defeated by the Democratic candidate.
1522
@J.
You are completely right about the danger of Pence.
I hope you're right about his ineptitude, but after Trump, he may seem very reasonable and capable, and thus even more dangerous.
66
@J.
You just wrote down pretty much all of the dourly defining characteristics describing the Grim Veeper. So smarmy that he out smarms the revolting Uriah Heep by a country mile.
84
@J. People like Pence and his so-called "Christian" supporters (very little that is Christ-like about them) look at scourges like HIV as God's vengeance upon sinners. Their crusade for "religious freedom" is limited to one religion: theirs.
85
The bit about not passing any legislation in 12 years is highly encouraging. If he was semi competent he'd be dangerous.
1536
@Riverwoman-Actually incompetent can be dangerous. Even before Pence became Trump wingman and accomplice, he did some pretty frightful things. As Indiana Governor he signed into law the strictest anti-abortion legislation in the country. His fixation with women's sexual parts and cycles is both anti-science and downright creepy.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/08/473518239/periods-as-protest-indiana-women-call-governor-to-talk-about-menstrual-cycles
156
@Riverwoman
That describes my Congressman and probably 2/3rds of Congress. Although my guy, in 12 years, has won approval of his legislation re-naming 4 rural post offices.
74
@Riverwoman
Ah yes, the summation of Pence’s career, “malevolence tempered by incompetence “. Works for a lot of other republicans I can think of, too.
63
Pence is an unknown, but not as likely as Trump to be almost wackily destabilizing. Politics under him would be more business as usual, except with a definite far-right flavor, unleavened by Trump's off-the-wall antics. But he might be able to get more done, and that would not be good.
194
Pence is basically a placid non-entity driven by an obsolete puritanism. His chances of winning a general election are lower than Trump's who can count on a cultist following. Pence will get the support of thoughtless evangelicals but i don't see him generating the same level enthusiasm from other Trumpists. So there is no reason to fear him as successor to Trump after impeachment, his capacity for screwing things up is quite limited compared to Trump. The country can survive one to two years of a Pence presidency, not obvious that the same can be said for Trump.
440
@serban
Some reading: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/23/the-danger-of-president-pence
"The Danger of President Pence: Trump’s critics yearn for his exit. But Mike Pence, the corporate right’s inside man, poses his own risks."
97
@Susan -- yes, I read it when it came out. I didn't think it held much water then, and clearly much less now.
Pence has the charisma and attraction of old roadkill. He has no national base beyond the evangelicals, and he jumped at the chance to run as a VP to a remarkably unchristian candidate who looked most unlikely to win election because it was obvious he had zero chance of being reelected Governor.
Remember that Gerald Ford had NOT been Nixon's running mate for any election -- he was House Minority Leader when Agnew resigned.
Gerald Ford had a crippled presidency even though he had a far stronger political standing on his own that Pence has. Most of Ford's problems stemmed from the aftermath of Nixon's removal and particularly his pardon of Nixon, and Ford was defeated by Carter.
The arguments about the Nixon pardon continue today, but one thing is certain -- the fact that Ford had not been Nixon's running mate made it barely tolerable.
If Pence pardons Trump the outrage will be overwhelming -- Pence is the quintessential co-conspirator in the Trump Organization (As in RICO).
I strongly urge the New York legislature to take up the issue of presidential pardons preventing NY state prosecutions for felonies.
41
Despite my best intentions, I’m not immune from bias. Through confirmation bias most of us favor information that confirms our beliefs. This bias manifests in many ways. When sifting through evidence, individuals tend to value anything that agrees with them -- no matter how inconsequential -- & instantly discount that which doesn't. They also interpret ambiguous information as supporting their beliefs.
Hearing or reading information that backs our beliefs feels good, validates our opinions and so we often seek it out. Many conservatives think liberal-minded individuals treat Rachel Maddow’s words as gospel. At the same time, many Liberals think most conservatives flock to Fox News and absorb almost everything said without a hint of skepticism and would love to see a Mike Pence presidency. I disagree with both these binary labeled views. Labeled views (liberal, Conservative) are easily packaged for people to choose external commonalities instead of being in the moment and self reflecting. Instead, keep applying yourself regardless of who's President. Validated or not, keep grinding & don’t tell yourself a story. The stories we tell ourselves could also be labels that put us at odds not just with reality, but with the real strategy that made us successful in the first place. From that place, we might think that success in the future is just the natural next part of the story creating a false sense of entitlement—when really it’s rooted in work, creativity, persistence, & luck.
4
@José Franco This is the discipline I wished we all had. This is such a virtuous perspective made for movies not the real world. I've read the 52 articles you've written on LinkedIn and came away thinking Brooklyn is a bubble or an ivory tower in comparison to the rest of America. When you do the math, you're trying to appeal to such a small number of the population with the content of your articles by holding a mirror up to all American by asking them to self reflect and learn about the theory of the commons. That's foolishly noble in a country that billions of dollars are made yearly through recycled distractions in music, politics and religion. The silver lining is the NY Times comment moderators and another handful of people continue to have hope and await a lucid moment of enlightenment by the masses never seen before. xoxo
Yeah, I've always thought Pence was the spookier of the two. Trump made some pretty outrageous promises during the campaign, and you've got to give him credit for at least making an effort to keep them, no matter how ridiculous. And among those promises was a refusal to cut Social Security and Medicare. Now that we have a Democratic House, that's not going to happen anyway, but if Trump had been removed from office a year ago, it would have been the first order of business for Paul Ryan. And President Pence would have gleefully signed it, so he could move on to building internment camps for homosexuals, atheists, and Planned Parenthood employees.
I'll also admit to being amused at the discomfort he's caused the Red Chinese with his trade war. If there is one thing that scares Communist Party officials, it's the possibility of domestic unrest that might lead to their overthrow. They've been able to maintain their police state, at least in part, because they've had an economic boom. If that goes away, their argument to their own people that it's better to put up with political repression than to rock the boat and upset the economy goes away. Of course, it becomes less amusing when I read about the damage it's doing to our own economy.
The best possible outcome is impeachment of both Trump and Pence, so President Pelosi could finish out the term.
18
I see Mike Pence as a placeholder until the 2020 Presidential Election when we can hopefully elect in a free fair democratic election a real president who puts America first before their own selfish agenda. Pence was literally picked out of obscurity and is no Gerald Ford who will run in 2020 expecting to be a strong challenger to a Democrat Nominee. One can only hope he doesn’t give a pardon to trump if he’s thinking about running. It’s a strong possibility he won’t run and we’ll see a wide open Primary for the GOP. I for one would love to see John Kasich run again who’s more moderate than a lot of today’s republicans
6
Kasich is not a moderate if you are a scared pregnant teenager or a happily married woman pregnant with a deformed child or miscarrying at 22 weeks . He talks a moderate game on the national stage but in Ohio he is a horrible as the rest
3
At least Pence has a consistent public record however unpalatable to many Americans. It is much easier to control Pence than a man like Trump who is unstable,unpredictable and ego-driven.The short term future is much more certain under Pence than Trump.
3
@Milton Lewis
Pence would only do what the Kochs wanted. If that is also what you want, fine for you. Not so fine for the rest of us who want clean air and water, a livable planet, and a government that does more than maintain police, military, and contract law.
21
Oh! What irony. djt resigns instead of standing for impeachment. Pence is humiliated, and cannot bear the thought of being in a room alone with Nancy Pelosi. He abdicates. Pelosi is President. Two justices resign from the Supreme Court and Pelosi names Merrick Garland and Barack Obama to replace them.. This causes another justice to have ventricular fibrillation, but he is successfully resuscitated by RBG. During his resuscitation the justice has an epiphany and realizes The Federalist Society is actually a political movement.
The court revisits Citizens United, and denies that corporations are persons, and limits political contributions to 25 dollars per election, per person. All states must have non-partisan redistricting commissions. Voter registration IDs are issued in all states free of any charges. National elections are conducted on a weekend, with voting extending to the following Monday, a national holiday. Universal health care becomes law. Climate change is accepted as an existential threat to all mankind. Work begins.
Life goes on, and RBG retires at 100 years of age.
2115
@Bill Oh, Bill, please give us your last name so we can write you in for the presidency! We could call you the leader of the Sanity Party. How bout it? You ready?
178
@Bill if only!!!
115
@Bosox 5 Bill, from your pen to G-d's ears.
140
Disposing of Trump is doing the right thing. This back and forth about Pence as prez is essentially second guessing that.
As someone who was a genuine President said at a troubled time: “We have nothing to fear but fear itself”
Too many fear Pence as if he were Grim Reaper. I have little doubt that he’s compromised. He’s laughable. He’ll not last when he too comes under scrutiny.
12
Is there any doubt that the Trump-Pence ticket is the worst in U.S. history? Sure, there'd be some contending duos (Harding-Coolidge is right up there), but when all is said and done, this regime owns the mantle of the worst of the worst of the worst. And it's not even close.
21
There is an education gap when it comes to Republican congressmen, senators, and governors. Pence seems to be especially under-powered in this department. Not being the sharpest knife in the drawer, a Pence presidency would be under-powered -and short.
10
In the great 1960 film Spartacus, Charles Laughton's character Gracchus says that politics is a practical profession.
I thought of that line as I read Ms. Collins's Op-Ed. As a lifelong moderate-to-liberal leaning Democrat who has been sickened by what Donald Trump has done to the country (and the world), sure, I'll take Mike Pence over The Donald any day.
Honestly, I would take the White House janitor over Donald Trump at this stage of the game. Would I prefer a Democrat in the Oval Office in 2020? You bet.
Mike Pence is less than ideal and has some conservative points of view that are beyond the pale as far as I am concerned. But at least he is not petty, vindictive and juvenile. He doesn't like Twitter!
I would never vote for him as president. But we have to be practical right now.
22
I almost feel a twinge of pity for Mike Pence. Pence leapt at the chance to become Trump's running mate because it was the only way he could ever possibly become president. He has set aside his moral reservations about Trump's behavior, fawned over the president, and defended his awful policies and remarks. But here we are, at the halfway point of Trump's term, and the president has not yet resigned or been impeached. Pence must be wondering when, if ever, he is going to be president. As I say, I almost feel sorry for Pence. Almost.
8
Maybe you didn't see trumps speech to the march for life yesterday? It means nothing to Trump but for pence and his people it is their entire reason to stay with trump. Sperm and egg at conception is God's decision. Everything else is manmade . That is why there is no middle ground. Very scary
1
Partly due to demographics and mostly due to increasing amounts of executive overreach, the legislative branch has been demoted in significance...particularly during the previous Congress. The exception, of course, is when an obstructionist Republican majority faced a Democratic president. There's no way a President Pence could or would browbeat, bully and beat up his fellow Americans at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue like the current excuse for a president. A Pence presidency wouldn't be the renaissance of American politics, to be sure. But even though I find his stances to be abhorrent, I have to believe we'd see an ebbing of the bizarre schoolyard behavior of the past two years. Granted that's a low bar, but we have to start somewhere.
14
I keep hoping that Mueller will find cause to call the 2016 election invalid because of illegal interference in the process by the Trump/Pence campaign. Then we would have President Pelossi.
31
@Jeannie - Sounds like too much of a mess to me, but I like the idea of President Pelossi. (Should we be saying this in public? Will it catch the attention of The Donald and get her in trouble? -- Well, she could handle it.)
10
@Jeannie
Not within Mueller's authority. The only way to get Trump out of office is impeachment or article 25? I think it is. There aren't 67 votes to convict in the Senate. And Article 25 no chance. In any case invalidating the election and appointing Pelosi would be a COUP no if ands or buts. And likely lead to shooting possibly on a major scale.
1
@Stephan I agree, but one can dream.
1
It won’t end with President Pence just as it is unlikely that Trump will be tossed out of office early by a Senate where republicans are afraid of him even if the House votes to impeach.
The American people, however, can throw them both out in less than two short years in a thorough rebuke to their corruption and incompetence to lead our country.
18
The problem, as I see it, is that the Trump administration is almost certainly illegitimate in the first place, aided and abetted into power by a foreign adversary. That makes VP Pence illegitimate as well. By the time this is established beyond all doubt, it's too late.
In the mean time, president Pence as a place holder, sitting in the Oval Office, no doubt convinced that he is part of "God's plan", is preferable to the insane mess we currently contend with on a daily basis. That's how bad this is.
17
@Alan R Brock, lucky for us that Trump being a foreign agent also means that any and all judges infesting our courts can also be declared illegitimate and removed. Bye-by Gorsuch and Kavanaugh!
Now, how do we get to that point?
2
We’ve passed the half-way mark in Trump’s term. If impeachment proceedings were to begin, it would be toward the end of Trump’s term when he’s impeached, anyway. At that time, Pence would be the lamest of lame ducks. I doubt he would make it for the party’s nomination in the 2020 election.
As horrid as it is to think of him as president, Pence lacks the carnival-like appeal to ever be elected as a Republican president. Republicans will continue their downward path and will no doubt go for another ‘Idocracy’-styled, reality-TV star. Dog the Bounty Hunter would be a perfect fit.
17
Trump has big plans for Rev Pence.
To increase profits, Trump plan to build a chapel in Mar-a Lago to accommodate his Saudis patrons.
Rev and Mother Pence gladly accepted the offer to be chief pastor.
Trump insisted they will not live there. They are help and must leave @ 6 PM every day.
7
A well wisher, I am very sad to see that most Americans including many columnists of esteemed NYT have been totally missing the crux of the issue.
America is afflicted with a terrible deep seated malaise. Trump is but a symptom of the malaise.
Commentators including the author Gail Collins, are missing the point. It’s a mistake to view the present imbroglios as a battle between good people versus bad Trump. Regardless of leaders the total capitalism is America's true ruler flexing its muscle.
Reagan laid the foundation for the Trumpism. It’s the reduced government spending reduced taxes and regulation, resulting in societal ruination by creating huge gulf between rich and poor, resulting in the emergence of Trump who was and is able to brilliantly manipulate the popular political discontent to his selfish advantage.
Thatcher, a Reagan admirer, similarly ruined the British economy and the ongoing Brixteer convulsion is the result!
Merely by replacing Trump without understanding root of the problem will make thing worse possibly successor making Trump look like saint in comparison.
21
I think that Pence has a bad crush on his Boss. Those dreamy looks of complete adoration. his often-expressed syrupy words of undying loyalty, the way he follows Trump around like a devoted puppy. The guy’s in love! Does Pence lunch alone with him?
22
@John Grillo - I was going to mention something like this myself. Thinking in a kind of neo-Freudian way, do we really think it's wise for Pence to lunch with a man without 'Mother' in the room also?
7
I've thought about it a lot. Pence might just be impeachment insurance. He'd arguably be worse for progressives and the American people in general than Trump is now. If Trump goes down for all the collusion, treason, tax evasion, whatever...Pence will be clean of all that.
We really have little choice other than to vote them all out in 2020. And get the GOP out of the senate while we're at it.
14
I’m a Christian and I do not understand why Evangelicals have
made homosexual behavior of more concern than how they treat the poor and the sick, as well as the stranger.
The Bible says FAR more about how we treat the poor than it does about homosexuality. And yet so many Christians CHOOSE to ignore this and act as if the most important teaching of Jesus was to denounce homosexuality. This is simply not true.
Vice President Pence has actually stated that he and his wife are “deeply offended “ that the press and others are criticising Christian education.
But that is NOT what is being criticized. That school’s singular emphasis on the sin of homosexual marriage and transgender identity is
a distortion of Christian teachings.
Why don’t they have a contract that says teachers and parents must give to the poor, the homeless, the orphaned?
43
When Mike Pence is alone with men or maybe a single man what safeguards are in place if he is flooded with desire.
18
With Pence, it’s a given that America would be set back to the 19th century. With Trump, there’s a small but real possibility that the world would be set back to the 9th century — or even the 9th century BC.
Tough call.
19
I do not know this man personally, and I doubt that you do either. But he seems like a very decent human being, and one who avoids carefully avoids both impropriety and the appearance of impropriety. In some ways he reminds me of Jimmy Carter, another politician who was a devout Christian and devoted to his wife. It is refreshing to see the rare politician who is not embarrassed by rude behavior, sexual scandals, and unbridled greed. And by the way, many men refer to their wife as "Mom", especially when speaking with their children.
2
@Michael: Jimmy Carter genuinely cared about poor people. He would never have separated children from their parents for any reason. Also, he was concerned about the environment, which is why he had solar panels put on the White House roof. (Reagan had them removed.) He doesn’t seem much like Pence at all!
3
@Michael
So you think that it is naturally seen as an impropriety when a man is alone somewhere with a woman?
Have you thought how this would play out if all men everywhere were to follow Pence's nutcase rule?
2
Remember-Paul Manafort selected Pence and had to sell Trump on the idea. It is inconceivable that he had no knowledge of Flynn’s actions before he allegedly lied to Pence.
16
Let me tell you, briefly, about Pence’s 12 years in Congress. I was there for every one of them. He was most noted, and reviled for, leading groups of school children into the Capitol rotunda, where he would stand on the antique benches (which were used in the House chamber when Lincoln served there and had just been restored) and deliver a lecture at the top of his lungs about how the painting of the baptism of Pocahontas demonstrated God’s holy plan of conversion for the New World, that the paintings of the American revolution were a constant reminder of the necessity to bear arms, and that the painting of Hernando DeSoto at the Mississippi recalled our glorious Manifest Destiny. He never mentioned the bust of Dr, King, or the suffragist memorial. I know because I had to listen to him put on this show at least twice a day during field trip season. He is every caricature of every right wing fundamentalist know-nothing squeezed into one container of oleaginous ham.
104
@Michael Judge -- Michael, it sounds as though Pence is another cartoon American character in a slightly different style from Trump's cartoon American character. Thank you for this report. (Sorry you had to listen to all that!)
16
Thanks! Have a pint at Laughlin’s pub in Ballyvaughn for me!
6
@Michael Judge Thank you.
10
Trump is the true face of the Republican Party. Pence is the cartoonish version of it we were taught in school.
17
If Trump is impeached and convicted, it will suddenly be revealed to the religious right, in a flash of light, that the whole Trump fiasco was God's plan to install Pence in the Presidency. After all, the nation is too wicked to have voted such a righteous man directly into office.
12
Be extremely careful what you wish for. Pence would be less volatile, but no less dangerous. He once said that God chose him to be VP ( to paraphrase), so the religious zealots would be behind him. He delivered that caucus to Trump.
11
Pence is the original Mr Cellophane, a nothing burger with nothing on the side. And how long would his ascent to the presidency last anyway? 2020 is not so far away.
My personal fantasy is that Pence gets caught up in the charges against Trump and Nancy Pelosi becomes our first female president.
24
@Nancy Lederman OR maybe the investigations of Pence family dealings becomes a bit more well known.
1
OK, so I agree with almost everything. That said, Pence at least has an IQ in the double digits, so that should be a multiplicative improvement.
5
I'm hoping Mueller has Pence in his sights.
That Pence wasn't involved in any of the campaign hi-jinks and didn't know anything is one of Trump's biggest and earliest lies.
16
I guess I've always taken comfort in the thought that if it were discovered that the Trump/Pence ticket won because of the interference of a foreign, adversarial country, it wouldn't be just Trump who'd be out--the whole administration would be struck off, and another election called--or Hillary and Tim ensconced until 2020.
Pence is the scary embodiment of everything that organized religion is meant to do:
1) normalize a patriarchal society;
2) demonize female sexuality as nothing more than a moral trap for righteous men;
3) establish legal means of discriminating against LGBT people under the obscene heading of 'religious freedom';
4) prevent women from exerting any form of control over their own reproductive systems (don't get too attached to that uterus, ladies--you're just renting it);
5) entrench a monolithic belief system in the supernatural so that dissenters (secular types who want the separation of church and state maintained) are considered destabilizing agents in society;
6) perpetuating the myth that choosing to believe in something for which there is zero evidence makes you a virtuous person, while critical thinkers are hellbound;
Obviously Nancy could eat Trump for lunch, but can she withstand an onslaught from that lurching army of delusional hypocrites called evangelicals? Pence gazes at Trump as though watching the Virgin Mary give birth to Abraham Lincoln on top of Mount Rushmore on the 4th of July. Embarrassing, yes, but potentially terrifying.
30
And never forget that should Pence have participated in the possible high crimes and misdemeanors that would make Trump impeachable - the third person in line of succession to the Presidency is none other than Speaker of the House - yes, President Pelosi.
9
Some random thoughts:
1. Ronald Reagan called Nancy "Mommy," and that was no more appetizing than Pence calling his wife "Mother."
2. "...Karen Pence — has taken a job teaching at a school that bans gay students and requires employees to declare that God does not believe in same-sex marriage." As a counterbalance, today my employer required me to declare that God does not believe in Mike or Karen Pence.
3. If we're really-really-really lucky, it will come to light that as head of the Transition Team, Pence had and hid information about Mike Flynn (or anyone/anything else that will do the trick -- let us not be fussy), and both Trump and Pence will be ousted together. Then our collective worry about this country turning into the United States of Gilead will have been for naught.
4. Mike Pence can then leave office to pen his forthcoming memoir, "Failing Up."
15
Part of the conversation about a possible President Pence should focus on whose hand is attached to the back of his neck creating that oddly disturbing head bobbing motion.
Remember this is the man who visited the Korea demarcation zone and looked sternly across the border to send a message of American strength and determination.
Such telepathic abilities might improve our shredded foreign policy. Unless enemies and friends attempting mind reading realize - never mind.
3
Finally, someone to secure 100% of Westboro Baptist Church vote. Trump only got 90%, but he’s working on improving that number.
8
Could not agree more. I have been saying that for two years now.
I suppose IF there were a positive note to all of this it would be that we would not get trump for another 4 years and then Pence for 8 years.
If trump were impeached, we would have Pence for 2 years and then another 4 years, total of 6 years, instead of a possible 8 years.
Pence is anything but a Christian. What about Luke who wrote the story about the Good Samaritan who was not Jewish, but a stranger who helped another stranger.
Or Matthew and his judgement gospel, Jesus asked who saw me hungry and fed me, who welcomed the stranger, etc. I often wonder how these so called Christians read these texts?
4
He’s got all the intelligence and charm of a bowling pin.
I guess that makes him qualified for elevation to the office of president if/when the current one departs.
Then again, his election is just as tainted as trump’s and if he has any honor, he will allow congress to select a new v.p. and then resign.
5
To quote a Hoosier friend, who said, when Pence accepted the V.P. gig: "Thrilled for Indiana, terrified for the nation."
18
You did not learn from history Ms Collins, from what Lincoln taught us.
He invited some slave owners into his cabinet because they were unionists. Saving the union was more important at the time than ending slavery because without the former, he could not get the latter.
The cancer now is Trump. He is the greatest threat to democracy since the Civil War albeit not as grave.
Make deals with moderate republicans. Don't condemn them all. Most republicans obey the law, Trump doesn't.
Once we get rid of the cancer, Trump, then democrats can make their case in a democratic way why their ideas are better than a Pence or some other republican.
2
Pence would be preferable for one reason and only one... no one will actually believe that we’ve sunk far enough for him to be a president so nothing will happen until after the next election. I mean really how can a potted plant be a world leader?
9
Pence is furiously anti-LGBTQ, allies with hate groups, is so well connected to right-wing billionaire donors that a Pence Presidency would be a Koch Presidency, is inordinately self-righteous and terrifyingly Fundamentalist in his beliefs. Pence would simply normalize what in Trump has appeared blatantly abhorrent. His predatory piety will be sold as poise. If Pence becomes President this year, Democrats can kiss 2020 good-bye. The Right will rally around Pence, from base to billionaire, and anoint him the savior of America.
4
The problem I have with a President Pence is that he will pardon Trump. Yes, SDNY will still get their hands on Trump and family, but I don't want to see him pardoned for federal crimes against America.
5
Not everybody wants the world you envision. Not a huge fan of Pence but he is way better than anybody you would support.
It might not be a bad idea that he wouldn't have dinner with Ms. May alone. It would be a lot better than Vlad and Donnie one on one. Actually, Pence would be a terrible president, but anybody at all would be better than Trump. I would rather have the last taxi driver who gave me a ride and I can't even remember whether it was a man or a woman or whether the driver spoke English.
3
I share your concerns about Pence - that’s why my Trump-Getting-Ousted fantasies always include Pence getting busted right along side. A man can dream...
14
I can imagine that, like Gerald Ford, Pence would be lured into running for President in 2020 and , of course, lose, like Ford. So, yeah, it would another goofy time for the presidency, but at least a progressive would be elected for 2020.
3
Pence was so happy to be picked as VP since his career was basically over. In a red state of Indiana he was seriously disliked after making several unpopular dictates that backfired. Unpopular is a kind description of how he was held by his populace in Indiana. Trump was his “savior” for his political career. Cloyingly religious and he would work 24/7 to get rid of Roe vs. Wade.
6
"By the power of Spiro T. Agnew, I compel you to produce your taxes!"
5
Pence is just another of Trump's A-Team, the best minds. Horrible that this guy is next in line. For that reason, impeachment of Trump isn't such a good idea. It would be better if Congress put a leash on Trump, e.g. any military action requires congressional approval. Then let him blabber all he wants until 2020.
Trump has already done huge damage. Pence isn't going to fix that and may make it worse. Especially for women.
The House can vote impeachment but it would likely stall in the Senate. The idea of him being impeached in late 2019, about a year short of the next election, doesn't make sense.
Again, best bet is to put our energy into finding good candidates for president, congress (good time to dump McConnell?), and avoid even the chance of a Pence presidency.
4
Impeachment makes for great headlines, so no matter how bad an idea it might be, we will be reading about it every moment of every day for the the rest of our lives, no matter who is president.
But there is a bright side. If Pence did not pass any legislation in 12 years in Congress, what are the chances he would accomplish anything in less than two years in the WH?
It would be much scarier if Trump is impeached and for some reason, Pence can not assume the presidency then it would be President MacConell who will probably take us back 50 years.
2
@Aurace Rengifo. Actually, the Speaker of the House is in line before the President Pro Tempore of the Senate. So, if Trump is impeached and Pence cannot serve, then we’d have President Pelosi.
We need to “Agnew” Pence before removing Trump and before giving Trump a chance to pick a new VP.
8
@Aurace Rengifo Actually Mitch isn't on the list of succession and the President would be Nancy Pelosi, who is currently succeding in driving Trump (more) nuts. The rest of the list is below. God forbid that something happens to Nancy.
No. Office Current officer
1 Vice President Mike Pence (R)
2 Speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi (D)
3 President Pro Tempore of the Senate Chuck Grassley (R)
4 Secretary of State Mike Pompeo (R)
5 Secretary of the Treasury Steven Mnuchin (R)
6 Secretary of Defense Patrick M. Shanahan
– Attorney General Matthew Whitaker (R)[a]
7 Secretary of the Interior David Bernhardt (R)
8 Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue (R)
9 Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross (R)
10 Secretary of Labor Alexander Acosta (R)
11 Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar (R)
12 Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson (R)
- Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao (R)[b]
13 Secretary of Energy Rick Perry (R)
14 Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos (R)
15 Secretary of Veterans Affairs Robert Wilkie (R)
16 Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen (I)
Not currently Senate-confirmed, making him ineligible under 3 U.S.C. 19(e).
Not a natural-born citizen (acquired U.S. citizenship by naturalization)
and thus ineligible for the Presidency.
1
@Aurace Rengifo, Speaker of the House is next in line after VP, so it would be President Pelosi
2
In many parts of the country, it is socially questionable, if not downright unacceptable, for a married man to dine out with a married woman who is not his wife. And this is true even among people who are well-educated and consider themselves otherwise sophisticated. The loss is to both men and women. Male/female friendship can be deeply rewarding in ways that same-gender friendships aren't. We are still a Puritan society, imbued with the notion that men are beasts and women prey.
3
The fact that Veep Pence calls his wife "mother" is their business, and possibly his personal rule about socialization with women in the workplace is just a self protection device. Eccentric, but it doesnt bother me a great deal.
What we should be worrying about is what my relatives in Indiana tell me about the man they call "Mike Dense" He was still serving his first term as governor of the state, and he announced he wasnt running again for the office, because the voters were thoroughly disgusted with him His holier than thou religious beliefs, which he was translating into policy, were costing the state in jobs, revenue and respect. He was unable to separate his personal religious beliefs from his governance and was stubborn about changing in light of negative results. He has a poised and statesmanlike appearance, but he is just as illsuited to be president as Donald Trump is.
32
Pence represents and will foment, the idea that discriminating against homosexuals is religious freedom. As long as religious fundamentalists restrict this discrimination to their own private institutions, I suppose we all have to accept it. However, if they try to to extend it to public policy, we have to object.
Unfortunately Christians seem unable to restrain their evangelical impulses.
9
@Lisa Murphy Unfortunately Lisa, just as you decry the stereotyping of LGBT people, perhaps you should not pillory the inability of Christians to restrain their evangelical impulses. Not all Christians agree with Pence and other evangelical leaders who have exploited all matters pelvic (abortion, birth control, sex outside marriage, sex for pleasure and same sex sex) since Jerry Falwell formed his Moral Majority, which the GOP exploited since to gain and keep political power, particularly at the state level. Evangelicals sold their souls to Trump and continue to support him in pursuit of their anti-sex agenda, particularly getting Roe overturned. I have long wondered whether the Bibles the Evangelicals are so devoted to somehow lack the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said: "Judge not lest you be judged" and "Do unto others as you would have done to you."
2
@Lisa Murphy those "evangelical impulses" did not come from the words or deeds of Jesus.
1
At a time when federal workers are pleading with their landlords and banks to allow them to postpone their monthly payments so that they can sleep under a roof and eat at the same time, impeachment talk is a luxury. (Democrats, are you listening?) Time for the Democratic Party at large to take a cue from the freshmen class and talk about Medicare for all, a more equitable tax structure like the one that served us so well in the '50s and '60s, climate change, reining in Big Pharma corruption, putting an end to Citizens United, using immigration to strengthen dying communities, restoring the Fairness Doctrine, and making voting easier, not harder, all while proclaiming that Social Security is an earned benefit and not a something-for-nothing "entitlement." The mosaic of Democrats in the House won not with chest-thumping displays of power but by arguing, effectively, that contrary to Republican dogma, in the hands of competent lawmakers unbound by corporate corruption, government IS the solution.
14
Good points!!!
Agree with much, but not all with what you are saying (sans equitable tax structure of 50s and 60s). The loopholes were immense.
3
It’s puzzling that these so-called Christians seem to cling to the Old Testament. I might be wrong but aren’t Christians supposed to be New Testament people?
If memory serves me, I can’t recall any mention of anti-gay, racist or sexist remarks uttered in his preachings. What I do remember is “Do unto others ...“; “Judge not, lest ye be judged” and “Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.” There seems to be a great deal of judgement and stone throwing by the sanctimonious Mr. Pence and his ilk. The exception being anyone who can advance their sad agenda regardless of how “un-Christian” their behavior.
11
I’m baffled. Why does most of the country seem oblivious to the fact that Pence is probably guilty when it comes to the Russian debacle and probably a few other things as well.
If Trump goes down Pence goes with him.
25
I'm baffled by you associating Pence to the Russian debacle. I've haven't read or heard anything that's tied them together.
Perhaps, I'm the one who is "out to lunch" on this issue.
Overall, I do agree with you...Pence going out with Trump would be great!!!
It gibes me a happy feeling to think that if we impeached Trump and Pence, we would have Nancy Pelosi as President. It may be a roundabout way to have a Woman President but it works for me.
29
Pence? Bring him on. If nothing else, there is no way he could win in 2020.
201
@Steven Weiss Well, remember Obama said there was no way that Trump was going to become President. How did that prediction work out?
26
@Steven Weiss
You are wrong. Impeachment would so energize the evil empire that defeat by six million votes wouldn’t keep Pence out. I wish it were otherwise.
13
I’ve been saying since Day 1 that Mr Pence is more dangerous to American values than Mr Trump. Mr Pence is civil, courteous, well-informed and well-connected - all traits that would serve him well in accomplishing any agenda he might hold.
That said, I find myself defending him on one point for which I initially mocked him. In our current #MeToo environment - which I applaud as long overdue - there does exist the possibility of ruinous false allegations. Mr Pence may be a bit extreme in his caution but he is not so much restraining a passionate or lecherous nature (and honestly judging by his usual affect I’m not sure his blood runs warm enough to be passionate) but rather self-insuring that he cannot be accused of inappropriate behavior.
14
Gail, thank you once again for your gentle humor and great wisdom. I hate Trump with a passion but fear a President Pence. I feel that his less bumbling efforts would eliminate free speech and would possibly eliminate protections for women, POC and LGBTQ people. And it might be sneaky; one thing about Trump, he's like a sledgehammer and you can see it coming. My fear with Pence, is you wouldn't see it coming until it was there.
551
@Meighan Corbett. we call him Vice President of the Corn--he's really scary.
18
Good article, but Collins failed to point out that Paul Manafort told 45 to select Pence as his running-mate. The Koch brothers did not give 45 a cent until Jolly Six Pence joined the ticket.
37
When Trump picked him for his running mate, Pence was in deep trouble in his campaign for re-election as Indiana’s governor. This was in part due to his lack of leadership during his initial term. Mostly, it was because his religious convictions on LGBT and other issues had alienated a significant number of those who would have normally supported any Republican candidate. The business community was openly hostile to Pence. I suppose Trump saved us from another smarmy televangelist.
22
People seem to forget Mike Pence was hand picked by Paul Manafort to be Trump's VP. Mike Pence was also the head of the Trump transition team and from what we know to date, it looks like his main responsibility in that position was setting up meetings between the Trump Team and the Russians. So I wouldn't discount the possibility that both Trump and Pence are forced from office.
58
Look on the bright side. Pence believes the earth is only 6,000 years old. That means we can cut a lot of education and research spending, and replace natural selection with all the non-fake news about intelligent design. Of course, as an atheist and a scientist I may find some of those changes difficult to live with. But once we have all converted to Pence-ism can the rapture be far behind?
17
I've been making this argument for quite a while now. If Trump is impeached, we get a president for whom "The Handmaid's Tale" is aspirational.
48
Thank you Ms. Collins - I appreciate your insight.
We need to let Mr. Trump finish out his last 2 years - we do not - I repeat do not - want Mr. Pence to assume the Presidency before 2020. It would be catastrophic as he has a wide following and broader appeal than Mr. Trump at this time. I believe Pence's chances of getting re-elected are better than Trump's. Trump is self destructing - all by himself. The Democrats need to seriously think about their candidate in 2020 - and I don't want to hear about the Elizabeth Warren's or Kirsten Gillibrand's - Joe Biden would have defeated Mr. Trump in 2016 and can do it in 2020.
14
@JMS Presumably there are some men whose names have been floated that you don’t want to hear about, also. Why not name them too?
Like all things Trump, Watergate gives us the roadmap. Indict Pence first then impeach Trump. And, don't let the next President pardon either one of them. That is where the similarities to Watergate should end.
40
@Ronny I think the next president, in your scenario, would be, I hope, Nancy Pelosi.
1
Our son came out to us at 14. Having a gay sibling, and therefore some experience in this area, I took to my bed for a week with an acute case of terror on my child's behalf. Our boy is literally the finest human being I know: kind, thoughtful, funny, introspective. He is an absolute joy and the idea of the world maligning him and hurting him the way my sibling had to endure was enough to send me to my bed for a week.
A week.
I emerged for reasons I won't belabor here. However, within the year, he came out to his friends. His group of friends literally cheered, hugged, hooted and congratulated him. I had worried for naught.
Since then, he has been able to resume being a teenager. He has a group of friends who love him. Some of his friends are exploring their sexuality and identity. All of them are kind, welcoming, smart, principled and just about all you would want in young people.
So the idea that we have elected into higher office someone who would erase my child, his progress and his future is UTTERLY unacceptable. The next time anybody reading this goes to vote for a Republican, search your conscience, please. Think of my child.
It is utterly hurtful to imagine a school that would reject LGBTQ. Most of you will get that. But for the few of you out there judging, let me add: my sibling TRIED very hard to live up to your ideals and almost died in process.
You can't erase people just because you don't understand them.
It is 2019. Perhaps we can do better in 2020.
248
@Gwe
Not worry. Under a President Pence you would get free access to conversion therapy
5
new york newbie--I am not sure if you are kidding or not, but for me, that is no laughing matter. I am sorry if I don't have a sense of humor about something like that. The idea makes me sick.
:-(
12
@Gwe
Thank you for being his wonderful parent; which is why your son chose to share his life with you. He will not be erased, ever. No one has that power, no one. Pence and his ilk are missing humanity. Their lives are awful. Your son's life is true and strong. No comparison.
20
I'm no fan of Pence or his theocratic tendencies but I subscribe to some of his policies regarding being alone with people of the opposite gender. Males in general, if they have any sense, have to be careful about any circumstance that someone might construe as, or later claim to be, inappropriate. It's by no means some fear of our inner "wild man" but rather a fear of false accusation as leverage or retribution. I applaud the #MeToo movement and am overjoyed every time some legitimate sleaze gets their comeuppance but I'm also aware that there are amoral/mentally ill people who may seek to take advantage of the current charged atmosphere for their own ends. Accusation equals guilt in the court of public opinion these days and it only takes one angry or delusional person to ruin your life. Oh, and many men of his generation call their wife "mother" including my non-crazy father (who is referred to lovingly, as "daddy" in return).
6
@Charles K.
Agreed. There is a mentally ill person I know about who has repeatedly accused of sexual assault persons who tried to help her. She extorted money from at least two that I know of. There are predators out there who are not male.
We should all be wary of persons we don't know well. With the internet, knowledge of "cons" is widely shared.
It is very important that the appearance of virtue be maintained.
Impeachment may not be a final door to a happy ending, but walking over that threshold may be an essential the first step. Trump may force the journey, even if odds of eventual conviction are long. Maybe he will just resign (wishful thinking).
Pence would almost certainly be no worse that the current guy, and we do have the election in 2020. If the people are remain strange enough to re-elect him or some other primary challenger, so be it. We can hope it does not; that scenario has other implications.
Whatever happens, I do favor a return of pets to the white house, even if it is a full-blown herpetologist.
3
Republicans are installed by their masters, which include the Koch's. The Republicans LOVE many parts of the Trump agenda, and will continue. Nothing to smile about, but our lack of agency, lack of ability, to get rid of Trump, is a symptom that we are no longer in control. Dark money, 401c's, FoxNews, Sinclair Broadcast Group, the installment of state appellate court judges and Federal courts.
47
@4Average Joe
"... but our lack of agency, lack of ability, to get rid of Trump, is a symptom that we are no longer in control. Dark money, 401c's, FoxNews, Sinclair Broadcast Group, the installm ...".
I believe are you are correct. But I'm going to wait for the 2020 election results before declaring that the US is officially an oligarchy. It has taken 4 decades starting with Reagan for the US to make this long gradual transition.
2
For over two years, I've feared this talk of impeachment precisely because it begets President Pence. The only thing that makes me less afraid now is that the House is controlled by Democrats, meaning a smaller chance that any Pence-produced legislation gets signed.
But let's not forget that many wrongs can be accomplished--much pain and suffering caused--by executive order, and for that, President Pence doesn't even need a willing Mitch McConnell. For those of us who've read the Handmaid's Tale and quaked in our shoes, a Pence presidency, steeped in extremist religious fervor, produces actual nightmares.
59
@e w With Pence as president we shall jump from the fire into the frying pan with the God of Pence making our country just a bit more ludicrous, if possible. The true meaning of democracy will be still out of our reach. But, as I said in the past, its entirely up to the lethargic electorate.
1
I plead humility in the face of Gemli's superb comment. He continues to top himself, which is quite an achievement. All I can add is a huge thank you to Ms. Collins for her resounding calling out of hypocrisy. Hell of a choice - overt and pervasive corruption and incompetence, or an utter hypocrite. I prefer "C", none of the above.
40
"Mother" does not teach at a "Christian" school. The Christian religion is based on the teachings of Jesus. It is easy, based on His teachings, to figure out His stance on issues of inclusion in our society of people who are "different." People who do not attend to the teachings of Jesus are not Christians.
137
The other question is whether Trump made a deal with Pence to be pardoned if he resigns before impeachment. Of course this won't save Trump from prosecution in state courts. But if Trump serves out his term, he might be in bigger legal trouble than if he resigns.
24
Truth be told Mike Pence could have been a character in the Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood wherein an autocratic theocracy has replaced the United States of America. Perhaps Atwood will have such a character in the sequel due out this fall. Life imitating art. Or is it the other way around.
37
Ulysses S. Grant, in his first inaugural address opined: "I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." I rather suspect this is also true of bankrupt ideologies. For him or against him, we have, over the past two years, had the reality of Trump driven home to us through. Perhaps two years of Pence would do the same for the illusion of benign righteousness, that is, the acceptance of excesses we would not endorse, in the hope of instituting policy we desire, because we naively believe those excesses really won't hurt--at least not us.
4
Concerns about the next in line should not deter Congress from performing its duty to protect and defend the constitution. If impeachment is called for, there's no excuse not to proceed.
46
If you liked Oliver Cromwell, you'll love Mike Pence.
51
The article misses an important point. If Trump is found to have colluded with Russia to rig the 2016 election, that will call into question the legitimacy of the outcome of the 2016 election. If the illegitimacy of the outcome of the 2016 election is confirmed, Trump will likely be removed as will Pence, as both are serving as an outcome of an illegitimate election result. Welcome the first female president, Nancy Pelosi who is third in line of succession.
66
@Dennis
It all sounds nice, but things don't work that way in the USA. The election results will stand even if replays show evidence that would cause any NFL ref to overturn the call.
14
@Dennis
My thoughts exactly.
Pence is a big piece, though not the only one, why I think that going the impeachment route is a very bad idea for Democrats (without impeachment in the GOP controlled Senate it would simply become a badge of honor for Trump who would proclaim that he was vindicated by the Senate).
My fear is that after Trump, Pence would seem stable and adult leading people to decide that we'd had too much turmoil and they might as well re-elect the guy already in the White House. Pence is a rather extreme conservative. We don't need a President Pence. We need to drive them both out in 2020.
177
@Anne-Marie Hislop Rid America of both ASAP.
1
@Anne-Marie Hislop Totally agree with you, and maybe Pence could drive the golf cart out of town while POTUS tweets - and of course the ladies would be riding in the back, not to heard or seen.
2
Pence is a Republican, what do you expect, the question is. Would Pence or Trump be the most beatable? And what about the chance the Republican party runs someone completely different. Who might not be so easy to beat, swinging the Republicans back to a more moderate party. In this climate could very well be successful. Lets contain Trump, and defeat Trump is 2020.
14
Pence is to Trump as all those always clapping generals in the background are to Kim Jung-un.
Are we really ready for a theocracy in America as a replacement for a kleptocracy?
Nixon's ex-VP Spiro T Agnew once told me that the key to choosing a VP was to find someone whom no one would want as President, essentially a presidential insurance policy.
Pence certainly fits that description.
77
@Peter Rosenwald
Bush43 chose Cheney who became the de-facto president. So yes, nobody wanted darth Vader for president, but your model breaks down in this instance.
Bush41 chose Dan Quayle (ironically also from Indiana), so you score a point in this instance.
Reagan chose Bush41 who later become president by a popular vote, so this is another miss.
1
@Peter Rosenwald like
When it comes to Pence and the Kochs, you left out oligarchy.
1
Mike Pence has very traditional values. I find his intolerance offensive too, but there are far worse things than a guy who embraces his own upbringing. Too bad John F. Kennedy and Bill Clinton did not avoid eating meals alone with women who were not his wife. Their legacies would be far more compelling.
8
@Bill Oh, I think the way JFK handled the Cuban Missile Crisis is pretty compelling.
Also Bill Clinton balanced the budget, created a surplus and came pretty close to killing Bin-Laden. And he enforced the Dayton Peace Accord ended the Bosnian War. All with the Republicans opposing everything he tried.
49
@Bill
Men are such push overs when it comes to women, that's why we are going to take charge. Men just can't think with their brains.
@Bill He did not embrace his own upbringing. He was raised as a Catholic and abandoned that faith... for extreme rightwing evangelism. Go figure?
1
The lives of soldiers matter. Four young people died. Respect for service people in the military should be more than a convenient soundbite. Threats to these people caused by a unthoughtful comment made without regard of the consequences should be recognized. Maybe someone in the administration should be required to visit the families tragically affected by such bradaggio and explain why. The careless wealthy classes are dancing on a stage constructed with the bodies and lives of the working class. If we've won in Syria, have Trump and Pence walk down a street hand and hand without the support of the army.
47
While I would not like a President Pence, I would greatly prefer him over Trump. The damage that Trump is doing to this country is mainly the result of his assault on the concept of truth and his ongoing assault on our ability to trust and rely on institutions like the government and the press. I don’t think that a President Pence would seek to base his entire Presidency in “alternative facts.”
6
Sorry, Gail, but many have been worrying about Pence. That is why some thought impeachment might not be the best idea. Pence has been parroting Trump after a quiet start. So the guy might very well be positioning himself. And thus the occasional outburst of paranoia from Trump hinting at Pence's loyalty.
But the fear of Pence is legit. He will do everything possible to inherit Trump's base but also inject religious zealotry into politics. Remember the Escape from New York and Escape from L.A. movies? The two respective presidents might very well be Trump and Pence in succession. Be afraid, be very afraid!
30
Maybe Mueller's findings will be enough to get rid of Pence as well and we'd end up with President Pelosi. At best he will only get two years and the Democrats will elect a President.
The only danger is in the Judicial side of things. We could hope for a massive defection of the Republicans in the Senate converting to the Democratic side. This could happen if the Shutdown lasts for several months as Trump wishes. I hope RBG sticks around for a long time.
27
Still, if Pence were the Republican nominee in 2020, the Dems could nominate pretty much anyone and be assured of regaining the White House.
I do wonder if the US will go the way of California, where Republicans are in short supply.
Hugh
34
Pence would hardly be a breath of fresh air if the stench of Trump were to leave the White House. Pence would be a different kind of awful, not an improvement. Trump's bullying and ignorance would be substituted with an agenda of the religious right implemented by a legislatively savvy politician.
The only silver lining, should Trump be impeached and replaced, is that our system of powers worked as intended. The swap would not be encouraging, but after Trump's lawlessness and authoritarianism, it would be a consolation to know he couldn't completely shatter our system.
27
From what I've seen, Mike Pence appears to be a nobody who excites precisely nobody (perhaps Mother excepted). If Trump were to be removed and Pence takes his place, I expect that many Trump devotees will not bother to turn up to vote next time.
So, despite Pence's antediluvian tendencies, I'd still prefer to see him as a temporary resident in the White House than any continuation of Trump in the same place.
27
@Dennis Callegari True. The man has no personality.
1
Liberals are comfortable expressing prejudice against those who are religious because, they say, the religious are prejudiced themselves. If I were gay, I wouldn’t care what the religious thought about me. And they are entitled to their beliefs about abortion. I’ve been around plenty of religious folks. If that’s their thing, so be it. I can live in a world where some people don’t like me and I don’t like them. In fact, I do live in that world and always have.
11
@michjas -- We liberals typically condemn only religious fundamentalists, not all religious people. Indeed, plenty of us are religious ourselves. And we condemn the fundamentalists only when they strive to put their prejudices into practice, robbing others of their freedoms and rights. We liberals can also "live and let live" whenever others will do the same.
212
@michjas I have no problem at all with religious people until they push legislation that impacts my and my family’s rights. Until they attempt to starve public schools to support religious schools.
If they live and let live, I’m content to do the same.
160
I could not agree more, but the Pences of the world insist we live according their religious interpretations, viz public funding for “charter” Christian schools and bible-infused condemnation and legal challenges to same sex marriage and reproductive rights. The constitution guarantees my freedom from the tyranny of anti-intellectual and anti-science religion zealots just as much as it protects their rights to live their fantasies. Both of our rights end where they infringe on the others’.
7
Yes-Mike Pence is super weird as zealots often are, and is not exceptional in any positive way. However, this VP is very accomplished in securing his political ground and will most certainly try to keep the crazy to a minimum if he does indeed inherit the crown. Personally, impeaching Trump cannot come soon enough.
12
Pence is the only member of the Administration who does not owe his position to the President. He has been free to rebut every lie the President has spoken, and oppose every destructive initiative that the President has proposed. Having done neither certainly amounts to high crimes and misdemeanors. If Trump is impeached, Pence deserves the same fate.
110
@maggielou
Sins of omission are much harder to justify in the House and Senate as high crimes and misdemeanors. According to his beliefs, a President Pence would ultimately face his Creator and be separated to his left with the goats for denying the sick, poor or imprisoned (cf. Matthew 25: "inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”} But, silly me, I expect politicians to be moral and consistent.
3
Right, he owes it to Paul Manafort. And given where Manafort is these days, Pence’s future does not look bright.
3
Impeachment is NOT a choice; it is the obligation of the oath of office our legislators took to defend the Constitution.
If the President committed a crime, then he must be impeached.
I am not afraid of weak, deceitful men like Donald Trump and Mike Pence. They're bit players in the American experiment, and will soon exit, stage right, in humiliation and disgrace.
I AM afraid of opinion columnists who advocate shirking constitutional duties for expediency.
15
There are many reasons that Pence could not be as destructive as Trump, but the chief argument in his favor is that it is very, very unlikely that after more exposure makes him a laughing stock in the country for the very bobble head, mother-obeying, robotic behavior he usually displays, he would be re-elected.
14
Pence would hands down be a better president than the incumbent. This conclusion follows logically from the fact that ANYBODY would be an improvement over Trump. Individuals with a genius for sheer incompetence and malfeasance, combined with the lack of ANY redeeming qualities whatsoever only appear once, or maybe twice, in a millennium. No other living human being can hold a candle to Trump’s rottenness. So, even if Pence needs a chaperone to meet with females of the opposite sex, the fact that he is NOT Trump makes him prime presidential fodder.
7
Before Trump slithered into the Oval Office, your indictment of Pence would have been convincing. But most of the veep's shortcomings make him ridiculous without inflicting the kind of harm on the country that occurs on a daily basis under his boss.
The colorless Pence, moreover, would not attract the kind of support that won a narrow victory for Trump. Many Trumpistas, in fact, would probably stay home in 2020 out of a sense of betrayal over the ouster of their hero.
I'm not yet sure Trump should face impeachment and trial, but my reasons have nothing to do with who is standing in the wings to replace him.
6
This survey of an admittedly vexing question confirms me in preferring the removal of Donald Trump even though it means getting Mike Pence as president for a while.
Pence stands for awful things, but he's not a megalomaniac. He's bigoted, but he doesn't inspire violence. He's distinctly odd, but he's not unhinged. He's unintelligent, but he's not a blot on the theory of evolution. His id is nothing if not well-behaved. He boasts a fairly long list of negative virtues such as a tendency not to trash America's free-world alliances; things you take for granted in a president till they're gone.
As you note, "Religion aside, Pence is a pretty run-of-the-mill conservative Republican." In a normal world, that would make him harder to defeat than a piece of work like Donald Trump. If this world, perhaps not.
7
Nothing should be done to forcibly remove Trump from office unless his mentally instability worsens to the point that he is risking a war. Removing presidents from office is not the American way. At least, not the North American way. He should be allowed to complete one term and then be soundly defeated in a fair election. In so doing, Americans would send a message to the world and themselves.
4
Pence seems to respect his marriage and we should applaud him for his dedication. Think what you will about his politics or religion, this man clearly respects and cherishes his wife.
This is role model behavior, and we shouldn’t be so quick to vilify the Vice President. If only ALL husbands and wives could maintain years of companionship and mutual respect.
#metoo should be proud of our VP even though some of his other stances aren’t as redeemable. While I don’t agree with his stance on gay marriage, I can entertain the idea that the Pence marriage is full of trust and love. Good for them!
5
@Ross
You say he "respects and cherishes" his wife? I disagree. It seems to me the very antithesis of that.
He would show he respects and cherishes her- NOT by AVOIDING being alone with other women, but by being alone with them and still remaining faithful and committed to his wife. That's truly respecting and cherishing her. Instead, his behavior reflects a robotic commitment to a long outdated doctrine that sees women not as people, but as dangerous objects...
2
Pence is a narrow minded extreme right Republican fanatic. His views about gay rights and woman’s equality are reactionary. He was disliked in Indiana and was unpopular and ineffective there in part because he was so eager to further his extreme beliefs and was intolerant to the majority who felt he was prejudiced. He is also owned politically and financially by the Koch Brothers and would do everything to further their agenda. He privatized toll roads in Indiana and sold them to a Saudi consortium. This turned out to be a financial disaster to tax payers there. Social Security would be a target for him. He is not a serious and reflective leader who would consider various alternative opinions. In short he is a rigid ideologue and a very strange personality without any gravitas. He would be disliked by a majority of Americans and be way right of center!
After all who would want to be VP with Trump? Who could praise him with a straight face and have any sincerity left? He is horrific!
96
@IN
Pence probably justifies his support of trump because he thinks trump’s reign signifies the beginning of End Times.
I’m beginning to think he’s right.
2
@IN
I first heard of Pence when I came across a Facebook Page titled Periods for Pence. If you ever want a chuckle and a sample of what life would be like under "father" take a look....
1
Perspective and perceptions are important. Is Trump very different from the much more competent Nixon? Or Gerald Ford? Both admittedly patriots. Trump is a little like Reagan, equally superficial and dumb, but cruder/flashier and lacking his integrity. Pence is dumb and lacklustre but he got the role because he "looked the part" full head of hair and all... Trump's characteristics seem especially highlighted by whom he succeeded: an articulate, intelligent and handsome man of undoubted integrity.
12
Impeachment is NOT a choice, it is the requirement of the oath of office to defend the Constitution.
It is simple: if the President has broken the law, the President must be impeached.
I'm not afraid of Donald Trump, and I'm not afraid of Mike Pence. Revolting as they are, they are bit players in the American experiment, and will soon exit, stage right, in humiliation and disgrace.
I AM afraid of opinion columnists who popularize the notion that legislators should shirk their constitutional obligations.
5
@Josh Wilson...very well put. Compare these forums to those of just a year ago, and you'll see in a hurry how the tone is changing from revolt to acclimation to authoritarianism. It's really, REALLY scary---what's happening...
2
@Josh Wilson
Yes, I agree. Disposing of Trump is doing the right thing. This back and forth about Pence as prez is essentially second guessing that.
As someone who was a genuine President said at a troubled time: “We have nothing to fear but fear itself”
Too many fear Pence as if he were Grim Reaper. I have little doubt that he’s compromised. He’s laughable. He’ll not last when he too comes under scrutiny.
I have long argued that President Pence would be a disaster. But I've also argued that's still better than President Catastrophe, which is what Trump is.
What's the difference? We, Americans, (and other people) survive disasters. By definition, you don't survive a catastrophe.
Pence is, still, despite being to the crackpot wing of the GOP, a parliamentarian at heart, a respecter of the institutions established in our Constitution and the separation of powers. He understands how legislation works, and has actual, real experience as the Executive of a state.
It ain't a great resumé, but it's infinitely better than the catastrophe destroying everything he touches...or ignores.
And, with all the charisma of Swine Flu, Mike Pence will be President until Jan 20, 2021, and no further.
3
Pence has been described as a sycophant to Trump, drooling over the prospect of becoming a president himself. I am not sure I’d agree with the notion that nothing much would happen if he gets his wish. He is probably more dangerous than Trump. He is a phony, just listen to him speaking. He sounds as though honey is dripping from his mouth when it is really venom. His apparent problem with women is the least of my worries should he take Trump’s place. Impeach Trump by all means, but keep him in office until hopefully our voters wake up and vote him out next year. Unfortunately, we can't count on the Democrats to nominate someone both competent AND electable.
7
@Morris G
Your last point is especially important. The Democrats must nominate a candidate capable of carrying the midwest. That is the prize their eyes must be on. If the Democrats cannot carry the midwest, Trump will win again (if he is still the GOP candidate). If it is going to take more of a centrist like Joe Biden to carry those states, then so be it. A president Joe Biden is preferable to any Republican alternative to Trump.
4
@Morris G
"His apparent problem with women is the least of my worries should he take Trump's place."
How wonderful you must feel.
Also, the likely first order of business for President Pence would be to pardon Trump and his miscreant crew against any federal prosecution. Much better to have a Democratic president elected, and Trump could be charged and arrested the minute the new president is sworn in. Lock him up. Lock them all up.
10
Pence was already on the skids in conservative Indiana when he latched on to Trump, in a Hail Mary leap at relevance. He's a botched experiment in taxidermy that will have no appeal to Trump's base, even if he garners some extra support from GOP'ers who now feel disenfranchised by Trumpism. Pence reminds me of Chauncey Gardiner in "Being There", except without the charm. Let him spout his holier-than-thou pablum; everything that's happened in the last two years can and will be invoked to demonstrate his profound hypocrisy. That will be the incessant back-and-forth in the media and on Capitol Hill.
11
As unfit for presidency as Trump is, he nonetheless has his "Base" that can do damage to the election of many senators and congressmen, especially in primary elections. So he gets his support in both houses of congress.
By contrast, Pence is a drone and despite some policy alignments with Trump he will never have a strong base to fire up and rely upon to coerce Congress.
He will be a very lame and pious duck.
4
But just think of all the exciting philosophical questions we'd get to explore if Pence were to be elevated. Is suffocating morality better than utter amorality? Is arrogant humility better than arrogant arrogance? Is theocracy better than kakistocracy?
All in all, I'd say that Pence represents a perfect opportunity to further learn firsthand what qualities we don't want in a President.
10
What ever happens, I hope that a real national crisis does not occur that would be mishandled by this administration. If we proceed with impeachment that could take up most of this year or more, leaving a year or less left in this administration's tenure.
I have thought about Mike Pence as president, I'm not sure how much damage he can do. As a lame duck Republican President with a Democratic House, I would guess not much. He would have his hands full trying to protect himself against an emergent Democratic party. I could see him retreating into an insular, uncontroversial bubble. Think Millard Fillmore: If you don't do anything, you can't do anything wrong.
Hey, but, I'm just a guy sitting at his desk reading the news and dreaming of a better America.
10
Pence is even weaker than Trump and every bit as dumb. Trump's choice of Ned Flanders as his running mate was the only wise decision he ever made. Democrats and Republicans alike dread the prospect of President Flanders. He would be a disaster unlike anything America has ever faced. Trump may love groveling before dictators, but Pence is such a spineless, sniveling choirboy that we'd suddenly have Montenegro and Liechtenstein walking all over us. Pence is Trump's ultimate safeguard against impeachment. Literally nobody wants him to be President. So unless Pence pulls a Spiro Agnew, Trump isn't going anywhere.
5
The second wise decision that Trump made was appointing McConnell's wife to the cabinet. The Senate is now a rubber stamp for the pretender.
2
There are certain advantages to a Pence presidency. First; his basic principles of hypocrisy would be clearly on the surface rather than need to be surmised. It would be interesting to see how Pence would carry his veneration of Trump into his presidency. As he strives to bring his version of religious and moral beliefs into the mainstream, how will he refer to his mentor for inspiration? Of course a Pence administration would have less antipathy to Muslims. The requirements that women dress and act modestly and defer to their husbands would be the extent of his knowledge of Islam, and of course, all he would need to know. And finally, status quo is important. America's status as the laughing stock of the world would be maintained.
4
Trump may not even run in 2020. His whole brand is about winning so if he thinks he might not, he might declare himself the greatest president ever (possibly excepting Abe Lincoln) and pack his bags for Florida, Moscow or wherever.
If Trump does not run, Pence won’t win the nomination. He has none of Trump’s creepy charisma and other than the evangelicals, the rest of the Trump base will not be inspired by him.
3
Trump started running the day after his inauguration. That is all that he does (when not watching TV).
1
If Trump is impeached, the religious right will suddenly realize the whole Trump fiasco was God's very elaborate plan to install Pence in the presidency, since the country was too wicked to vote him directly if he had run.
7