So these people, according to this article, are having a great job but (according to a NYT article same page) when they don't get paid for one month they are broke. Confusing.
4
One thing the ignorant right doesn't understand is that contractors are more expensive than direct employees. I have worked DOT contracts where the direct employees made less than me, but I had none of their vacation time, paid sick days or health insurance. I was making $45 a hour working on the X47B prototype unmanned bomber and to be considered a applicant had to have 25 years of experience, minimum. The contract house that actually paid me was paid more than $100 for every one of my hours by Northrop Grumman Aerospace company. How is that less expensive than a direct employee?
Also because the right wing voter is so completely naive and stupid they actually think unions are a bad thing. Talk about voting against your own interest. These people are too busy worrying that someone is getting a better deal than they are and are too stupid to organize and improve their lot in life. Yet they have no problem with a executive make tens if not hundreds of millions a year. The only way someone deserves that kind of money is if they invented a cure for cancer. No one is that valuable.
17
Lots of mean-spirited comments here, full of grievances against workers who are just trying to make ends meet. This is precisely why we are in this predicament today: aggrieved voters who believe they aren’t getting what they deserve (but everyone else be damned), so they voted for someone who projects the same anger that they have. Trouble is, neither the president nor the voters understand the complexity of the issues, and aren’t willing to see all sides. They only want their concerns addressed, even though they may be incompatible with their neighbors’ interests. When did we lose the bigger perspective, that we have to compromise to move forward?
11
I don’t know what you think middle class is but most of the current narratives being reported are of people holding on to their health, food pantry, car payment and mortgage by their fingernails.
3
Oklahoma and Kansas both sneered at any Federal Government regulation or subsidies preferring self-determination through tough hard posterity measures. Until when the citizens had enough. This layoff will change their bottomline and the political future of both Parties as they play the blame game pretending to care, crying through their crocodile tears. Politics as usual with the little guy losing ground like always.
2
Hey people complaining about Federal employees (and their high-paying jobs—ha): Last time I checked these jobs are open to all qualified applicants so why not stop complaining and submit your resumes! Geez...
12
I dumbfounded by these people’s desire to help others and make less doing it. These people would cripple the private sector. By all means we need to reopen the government before they enter the private workforce and drag this country into the gutter.
4
I hope all you people that think trump is correct and that government employees are useless when you tax refund check doesn't arrive. I hope you enjoy it when there is a dire need to take a cross country trip and ATC decides to slow down the system, I hope you enjoy your righteousness when there are no FEMA employees to help you when a disaster occurs.
7
Most of these jobs should be outsourced to the private sector, because if technology can replace these folks, then it should. But, it’s too difficult for the government to do that. Politics gets in the way. By outsourcing, the private sector will remove the inefficiencies.
1
@Mark
Actually a lot of those positions already are contractors.
7
This shutdown is a really good way to drain the swamp. The federal, state and local governments need to shed at least 10% of employees
2
@R.Kenney - Yeah, but with all those employees out of jobs, Trump's vaunted low unemployment stats would be kaput.
2
It’s reasonable to wonder aloud why people with seemingly steady if not lucrative jobs can’t miss a paycheck. Same to be said for farmers complaining about their loans, taxpayers who can’t wait for their refunds, real estate buyers trying to get a mortgage. How could they mismanage their lives so badly as to let a few days of no government interrupt their rugged independent lives?
10
No federal program is funded without being authorized by Congress and the relevant agency budget. Program funding is pretty competitive. Civil servants work on these projects .. which Congress and their relevant agency think are important. Essential is something else and now Trump is rewriting the rules to make it anyone who JQ Public would notice is not answering the phone. Was at one time just life and safety or hardware .. so yes to FAA flight controllers, no to most other people. Idea of the last shutdown was to make it really, really painful.
If you really don't think we should be spending money on program X, then you need to lobby your congressperson and senator to cancel it. However, let's say you don't like NIH or EPA or whatever. Are you qualified to decide which programs are important.
Federal government salaries were frozen for about 5 years under the Obama administration and now will be again in Trump's. Yes, there are grade increases, but those dwindle as you stop getting step increases (GS-13 to GS-14). Also government salaries are often not as high as similar private sector jobs, especially for people with responsibility for major projects, with thousands of people and billions of dollars. While $150K sounds like a lot, equivalent in private sector is a lot more, plus bonuses and management perks.
Good benefits, but they don't pay the bills .. and ... why are we all not getting a pension or health benefits to 65 or vacation or sick days ..
6
@Innovator Just another sob story from someone who depended on someone else to take care of them.
2
Not that everyone doesn't already know, but the (partial) government shutdown has demonstrably proven there are hundreds of thousands of unnecessary government (employees).
Their positions need to be ended, replaced by outside private sector contract employees, if at all. The shutdown is a blessing in disguise for the overburdened taxpayer. All is well..
7
@Screenwritethis - Not necessarily. When the janitorial staff at my job went on strike, the rest of us pitched in and kept the place tidy. But we only did it for a week, which was good because it was hard to do our own jobs plus someone else's. Turned out, those folks and their jobs were actually needed. I'll bet it's the same with the government workers - others can cover for them for awhile, but not forever.
10
Screenwritethis: keep telling yourself that government workers are unnecessary when the airliner you're riding it hits another one. It should give you solace during the long fall from 35,000 feet.
11
@Screenwritethis Good comment I agree 100%
1
As a retired employee of local government (county level), and spending that entire career in human resources management as a senior compensation analyst, I can verify that nearly all government employees at any level are guaranteed salary increases within their salary range based on their time in their position, but also annual salary increases as negotiated with their recognized unions or employee organizations.
The annual salary increase generally resulted in a 5% raise by moving from one step within the salary range to the next, and in addition, anywhere from a 1.5% to 3% increase in the salary range negotiated with the unions and employee organizations.
Retirement benefits are provided, based on the employee's age of entry and length of service. The employer pays a minimum amount (usually 7% of salary), while the employee pays a minimum of 4% of salary.
This is not to say that I don't sympathize with people who are out of work or working for no pay, not receiving the paycheck they are accustomed to, not receiving their benefits, likely not receiving work credits toward their retirement, but I am preaching to the choir because Trump doesn't care.
I say, write your senator. The House seems to be on your side, so get those senators off their (T)rumps and make them start working for you, their constiuents, the people who put them where they are to represent your interests and concerns.
4
@de'laine, Your facts are incorrect. The yearly raises for Federal employees are set by Congress and the President. There are no negotiations between unions and the government. Four states have collective bargaining between employee unions and the government. Many towns and local governments have collective bargaining over wages and benefits but trust me Federal employees have no collective bargaining over wages and benefits.
In reading these comments I am shocked at the number of people who self identify as Federal employees who do not understand their benefits. Many comments say that they don't get a defined benefit pension. While it's no where near as generous as it once was, trust me they get one. Some people make the assumption that public employees at all levels (Federal, State, local) get the same benefits. They do not and some are vastly more generous than others.
5
@de'laine
There are many statements in your comment which are flat out untrue. Federal workers who are not on the GS pay scale are NOT guaranteed increases. There numerous "pay for performance" pay plans in the federal government, the TSA is in one such plan, which do not include any regular pay increases. It would be incorrect to state that "nearly all" Federal employees are GS scale. The annual salary increases you discuss in the second paragraph have not existed since January 2002 for about 50% of federal workers. Over the last 18 years, my average pay raise has been less than 3%, with several years of 0% during the Great Recession. There have been 3 or 4 adjustments to formulas for contributions to health insurance and pension plans. In recent years, pay raises have not equaled the increases in benefit costs. Pay and benefits for state, county and local governments have no relation to federal pay and benefits and any extrapolation would be seriously incorrect.
Congress agreed to a 2.9% pay raise in August which the President cancelled on Labor Day weekend. The current budget proposal does NOT include a pay raise for federal civilian employees.
I would like to point out that health and life insurance continue to accrue during the shutdown, and the first check will be smaller than expected as the accrued premiums will be deducted. Several states require that unemployment benefits be repaid if back pay is approved.
4
I started working for the Federal Government in the mid 1970's after graduating from a good 4-year state university. My first job was a GS-5 Accountant in the Alexandria VA area. I made the princely sum of about $9,000 a year.
1
@Sam Freeman I started as an electronics engineer in 1972 after a PhD in engineering from the then BEST engineering school in the US {now still in the top -5]. My first private job in R&D was 'a princely sum' of $14K -- and NO PENSION. So, basically same. no whining.
4
@Tamza
I assume you have savings, social security, and a A 401(k).
I am a Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS) retiree.
FERS is a retirement plan that provides benefits from three different sources: a Basic Benefit Plan, Social Security and the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP). Two of the three parts of FERS (Social Security and the TSP) can go with you to your next job if you leave the Federal Government before retirement. The Basic Benefit and Social Security parts of FERS require you to pay your share each pay period. Your agency withholds the cost of the Basic Benefit and Social Security from your pay as payroll deductions. Your agency pays its part too. Then, after you retire, you receive annuity payments each month for the rest of your life.
2
Of the top ten counties in terms of per capita income in the US, 4 of them are in Virginia. There is no coincidence to this.
Some government employee make less because they traded lower wages for job security and fewer hours. That's a fair trade, and they are not owed anything for that.
Many of those temporarily out of work are in the revolving door of government-private sector consulting-government. They make a lot of money during the periodic stints in private practice and they return to government to refresh their connections.
As for the unionized folks, most of them are not paid less than they would receive for comparable non-government work. They generally make more and have more job security. They are the only people who get to elect their bosses.
We saw what happened with the Detroit automobile industry and every other heavy industry in the US. Lower cost labor overseas took the jobs from the unionized shops in the US. Private employers become beholden to unions at their peril.
So, I have no empathy or sympathy for government workers as a whole--they are fairly treated--even during this shutdown--although I do feel for those who miscalculated and haven't set aside some money for this day--they knew it was coming. Overall, they will learn from this and come out better for the experience.
I think we're finding out, like the time that Reagan fired the air traffic controllers, that the jobs of most of these people aren't needed, anyway.
8
Let’s shrink the middle class even more’
2
@Hooey - Air traffic controllers aren't needed? Do you actually believe that?
1
This article is a distraction to the failure of the President and Congress to do their jobs, fund the bills they already passed, and pay the workers the government already hired. And the pointless debt ceiling system that has allowed mostly Republican politicians to repeatedly grandstand us into these shutdowns.
That said, the continued growth of government worker compensation is not fair to those of us in the private sector who generate the economic output that funds the government but have faced stagnant salaries with no pensions and gutted benefits.
The chart showing average federal salaries now 50% higher than the private sector is a stark depiction of this but only a part of the inequity. It should compare the total compensation of government workers to the private sector, including pensions and benefits, which would show the even greater disparity in favor of government worker compensation. That comparison would show federal workers even more generously at the top, state workers next, and private sector workers even farther at the bottom of the ladder.
Not to blame government workers for their bloated compensation. This is the fault of politicians who fail to fund the full cost of government compensation like businesses are required to do, especially unfunded pension and retirement benefits, and of voters who turn a blind eye to the fiscal dishonesty and irresponsibility of both major political parties at all levels of government.
9
@George Stapleton, MD
If federal employees earning enough to be in the middle class is "unfair" to workers in the "real economy", then maybe you should consider the source of the stagnating wages that keep eroding the "private middle class", and take more interest in demanding more for THEM--you know, since they are the ones that fund the government and all--instead of attacking some of the few remaining workers in this country who have unions and enough benefits to not have to live in permanent insecurity and scarcity.
Unless of course, you believe that nothing is ever the fault of the private sector. We've been hearing different versions of that claim for almost 40 years now!
8
@Bryan We don't need the FBI, the TSA, Border Patrol, prison guards, department og agriculture ir NOAA?
2
I can only assume the MD who wrote this post is by now on his way to apply for one of those lavish jobas s a doctor at at his local VA hospital. I mean the pay is so much higher there than in the private sector, right? (It is not.)
And big firm private sector lawyers with starting salaries of $125k or $175k (before bonuses) have similarly been lining up to get a job as a GS-12 federal government lawyer (starting pay as little as $63k), right? (They are not.)
The federal retirement system is projected to run out of funds at no time between now and 2090, and in fact will have an overall surplus after that. And yet the above post just casually asserts that pensions are underfunded. The poster may have confused the federal government for carious state governments. (Hint: they are different.)
These posts by people who have no idea what they are talking about are perhaps a sign of our times, with people following the example of our president in that regard.
6
High time that the private sector returned to offering the kinds of benefits and security that government jobs (sometimes) still do. Government should be leading such trends all the time, not following. The tail has been wagging the dog for too many decades now, and the results helped lead to the rise of Trump.
24
2% every year until Trump stopped it.
1
@John Of what do you speak? Raises? 4% total in 6 years for this furloughed fed scientist, Clyde.
4
Jealousy - the green-eyed monster. So typical of DJT to convince his supporters that everyone else has it better than them, no one works as hard as them, etc.
When you live in a nation with poorly paid civil servants, figure in the cost of the bribe when u need a permit, license, or water test.
13
Most government employees, especially in the jobs which require advanced degrees, like lawyers and doctors make significantly less than their colleagues in the private sector. When I graduated from law school in the 1980's, I took a job in the public sector because I believed in public service; I was offered a job at twice the salary at a law firm. Now, first year associates at major law firms make more money than experienced lawyers in government. People make that choice for many reasons--including wanting to give back to their communities.
31
@JaneF
And those positions you mention are a fraction of the total employment picture. The average working stiff makes a fair amount less than a Federal employee with equivalent training/job skills.
As far as those having financial problems? No sympathy here. Nobody forced them to live a lifestyle beyond their means.
10
A continuation of the war on government and the war on working people that Reagan began, which the Republicans and Trump have now revved up to a fever pitch.
Demonize the government, government workers, and workers in general; undercut worker rights and job security; pit one set of the 99% workers against the other; destroy unions and force our competent longtime employees... all to destroy workers' standards of living, create windfall deals for "privatization" cronies, and return to the Robber Baron state of worker servitude and windfall profits for the uber-rich.
32
The headline is misleading. I personally know people who left a significantly better paying job in the private sector to work for the government. The better job security and benefits were among the factors that made up, at least partially, for the pay cut that taking a government job entailed. In addition, there are also hundreds of thousands of government employees who make entry level wages or salaries. The TSA screeners who are now forced to work for free start around $ 17.50 per hour; not that generous, is it?
A key reason why the Republicans in the Senate aren't that unhappy with the current shutdown is that it will lead to thousands of furloughed employees leaving their government jobs, further hobbling agencies such as the EPA and the FDA.
19
@Pete in Downtown
Given that they let about 85% of weapons through when tested , $17.50 seems about $17 too much.
1
Now we find out that Speaker Pelosi was leaving the country for several days. That doesn't seem like the behavior of someone who cares about unpaid government employees.
8
@AACNY She was going to a war zone--hardly a boondoggle.
28
Instead of people resenting the wages and benefits government workers receive, private sector workers should be asking why they don't receive similar wages and benefits.
36
If you make $90,000 per year in Fargo or $78,000 in Tulsa, you can save a lot of money. Rent can be a few hundred dollars per month. you shouldn't need to sell an old television on Craigslist because your paycheck is delayed a few weeks.
24
If it such a good deal how come many did not save enough money for a short run rainy day fund?
11
@Michael Dubinsky And it doesn't rain like the old days -- either droughts of floods. Saving doesn't help in either case.
@Michael Dubinsky Those of us who are able to, and who did exactly what you said, are neither being interviewed nor needing the extensive support that some compassionate entities have been kind enough to provide.
4
This article seems to have brought out the same folks who, when faced with a story about New York City rent regulation, whine about how unfair it is that some people have such great deals.
You know, the folks who if they themselves had a rent regulated apartment/government job with good benefits, would be pleased as punch and would never think of giving it up.
21
@PM yes, I see a lot of begrudging other working class people, as if we're just supposed to shut up and accept a "gig economy" and competition with low-wage international workers toward the bottom.
15
Yeah, so what’s your point in this article? Are you trying to pit private sector employees against them? Look like it.
12
Putin is getting the best gift his lapdog could give him:
"Shut down the American government."
That's always been a dream of Putin, and now it's happened. He no doubt told Trump to do that at the infamous and undocumented special meetings. I can't wait to see what the so-called president will give him next.
14
For the worst, least dependable job in the US, do a story on college adjunct teachers.
10
@Anonymous Adjunct faculty are supposed to have a day job, and do this on the side to bring a fresh perspective to the curriculum. Unfortunately, many seem to believe it is a path to a tenure track job. IT IS NOT.
10
Your "good deal" nomenclature is a crock.
Don't blame workers who have steadfastly fought to remain unionized while a lot of "low information" voters blindly vote to maintain or initiate "right to work" laws in more and more states.
All workers should have protections and access to a decent living.
22
Who do you suppose should pay for all workers to have the benefits and comfort you say they deserve? Those of us in the private sector are generating the economic output that supports the whole government, while making lower salaries, no pensions, and gutted benefits by comparison to federal workers. Not fair. The government is supposed to work for the country, not the other way around.
6
@George Stapleton, MD Fairness has nothing to do with it. Let's stop with the "we pay your salaries" nonsense, study after study has shown that the private sector greatly benefits from the economic, social and environmental stability that an effective government provides. It is true that one does not work without the other, but it is a two-way street.
19
@George Stapleton, MD
Since those of you in the private sector generate the economic output that supports the whole government, are you suggesting that those working in the public sector make no contribution to this country’s economy? Your assertion is truly disingenuous.
11
I find it strange that government employees who are getting steady raises, benefits and pensions are cash strapped after missing one paycheck. Where is the money going?
15
@themoi Do you think that getting a raise (which keeps up with inflation) means they're getting rich?
13
@Raindog63 We've gotten 8% in the past 7 years all together. Not even close to inflation, Bub.
3
When I started at SSA 43 years ago, my friends wanted to know if I was nuts. You could make so much more in the private sector I was routinely reminded.
In that 43 years, government financed by private donations, anti-labor campaigns including right-to-work laws, policy for sale and foxes in the henhouse have removed millions from the middle class, taken away good health insurance and made defined pension plans virtually disappear. When I started in 1976, couples were only then concluding both parents needed to work. Now, many couples can no longer afford a home and have only the ACA and 401k's.
It is not like the federal workforce got fat. I remember too many years of no COLAs or half of what was in the law. Despite that, it was as if the rest of labor took 3 steps back making us a prime target for the right. The undeserving living off your taxes.
I am so sick of politicians paid to castigate us and low information voters. I am ready to go when I finish my 44th year. I once was young and full of optimism over making a difference to our nation. I have had 39 years since Reagan declared that I and what I do was the problem. I am disgusted at what wealth has done to our great country.
55
A partial shut down of our government is just the tip of the iceberg of things that are broken these days vis. a vis. government.
But, those who don't have a six month (or even three month) emergency fund are in denial about the ups and downs of life. I only hope that this time without paychecks will be a wake up call for all of us and especially federal government workers.
Save, save, and then save some more.
17
@bob. Sure, because the problem isn't that they're simply and unfairly being used as pawns by a corrupt, incompetent president. The problem is their allegedly extravagent lifestyle.
10
Those with experience in debt instruments will understand the implications of this interesting piece.
Government is no panacea. It is a sinecure that is draining us.
Once upon a time, Americans traded opportunity for security.
Today, the shun opportunity for sinecure and government weakens initiative accordingly.
We have become lazy. Our best fly, the rest sleep.
6
The shutdown and furlough are the result of an absurd interpretation of the Constitution. Specifically Congress' power to appropriate funds for agencies and what that means for federal workers.
The caveat that only essential services remain functioning shows what a fallacious argument it is. "It's unconstitutional for an agency to operate when appropriations lapse. Except if the agency does something critical. When it's a critical service/agency, it's constitutional to make people work without pay."
That, and the President called people back into work to process tax returns. I know we all look forward to the check, but, um, large parts of Homeland Security's cyber teams are furloughed. Aren't the nation's cyber defenses critical enough? Follow-up question: What if our returns get hacked? Does that mean the cyber teams were always critical but we didn't know it?
The Constitution assumes that we want to solve problems using its guiding principles. For shamefully pathetic reasons Congress just won't override the President. For pragmatic reasons, the courts won't force the government to pay up since spending money is a congressional power.
Now we have the worst of all outcomes. A government that theoretically has phenomenal cosmic powers, but no ability to use them.
So it's off the bread lines with you, federal employee! Furloughed or not, it doesn't really matter.
5
@Danny It isn't the Constitution - it's the Anti-Deficiency Act, which prohibits the government from spending money that is not appropriated by Congress.
3
Trump keeps proving to be Scott Walker 2.0, taking Scooter's Koch-fueled Wisconsin "divide and conquer" strategy to the Nationalist level.
It won't be long before we start to hear the liberal opposition labeled as "takers," "moochers," "leeches," and "parasites" again, despite the fact that these terms describe hucksters like Trump and Walker better than anyone.
And all we Whos down in Whoville have ever known to do is deal with the hardship imposed by the greedy, know what's proper, "make adjustments," and continue to do what's right, all the while singing in light protest.
All power abusers run their course. Trump's just about to finish running his.
But just to make sure, let's see if we can have a little more fight in us this time, shall we?
Don't hold back, House Dems, Mr Mueller, and America:
Take. the Trumps. Down.
25
Imagine you work for a company with 2,000,000 employees. Only 10,000 are terminated each year (.005%). Basically you just have to show up.
Work 25 years and you receive 2/3's of your average salary for the rest of your life, adjusted for inflation, and guaranteed by other people (that is what a "pension" is).
Does gold plated health care benefits for you and your family, for life, sound good? It should, that is costing someone else A LOT of money. Have back trouble? Just take a "furlough." Need life insurance? You are in luck, your employer has the largest group program in the world (literally).
Okay, stop imagining and apply for a position with the federal government.
15
I totally agree with you. Every American should have to work for a company that provides no healthcare, no sick leave, and no benefits or retirement and above all no job security. Job security just makes people lazy anyway. And please do not even get me started on paid vacation...seriously why should some one get paid not to work? Glad we’re moving in that direction, but not nearly fast enough! 4 more years!
21
@Bill knows nothing about benefits or job conditions for federal employees. Unfortunately, many others clearly share this fact-free view of federal employment as "gold-plated". The pension benefits (paid for in part by employees) for working 25 years are 25 percent of your final average salary, not 2/3. The government covers 2/3 of health insurance premiums -- certainly very good, but not as generous as many large private employers that cover the full cost. That "furlough" for back trouble he disparages is called sick leave. And the life insurance offered is more costly than what most people can find on the open market.
Mind you, these good benefits are definitely a draw. Perhaps instead of working to dismantle them, people instead should work on making sure all workers get them.
Oh, and with this type of grasp of information, good luck with that application for a job with the federal government.
22
@Bill. Or, alternatively, imagine a just and fair society where private sector employees enjoy similar benefits, pay-scales and job security as enjoyed by public sector workers.
There is such a place. It is called Germany.
Instead of arguing why public employees have "more," why not focus on why private sector workers have less.
19
I continued to be amazed at the number of people who hate people who have pensions, medical coverage and well paying jobs.
Is it jealousy? Maybe.
But I think what really burns some people, possibly a significant number of people, is that they just cannot pass a background check.
I get that, that could make anyone mad enough to vote for Donald J. Trump. Or some similar, possibly criminal, miscreant.
21
Spending billions on a so-called "boondoggle" is not OK, but spending billions to oppose Trump is A-OK.
3
This article is illuminating. That said, its timing as these workers are being whacked by the government shutdown feels smug.
Is the underlying point -- as I infer -- "Gee, who cares about their plight because they've been raking in the loot for years while the rest of us have had to struggle?"
Anyone whose job is suddenly in jeopardy because he or she has become a pawn gets my empathy, whatever their status.
Any gloating comes across as sour grapes.
15
@hotGumption. But their job isn’t in jeopardy. They can’t even be fired for incompetence.
7
@Jackson
not true...you can be fired, supervisors and management just have to do the paperwork.
We were succesful with this as well as with personnel who were abusing their "medical condition."
8
@Jackson
You almost got the last word, except what you say is invalid. And it's not about losing jobs; it's about not getting paid. They can be fired.
Their plight seems to be making some people on this site gleeful -- as though they're finally "getting what they deserve." I do not view people that way.
2
What you neglect to mention is a $ pension and cost of living increases until death (just like NY teachers). The U.S. taxpayer cannot afford to have state and federal workers retire at 52, 55, etc. full pension and better than private sector workers.
10
@Jan. You do realize that federal workers are taxpayers, right? And that the wealthy got a huge tax cut last year, which is money removed from the public sector that you and I have to make up? Your resentment is misplaced.
15
@Jan The pension is 30% of final salary after 30 years, increased at a percentage point below inflation up to a max of 5%. Beyond that is our 401(k) and Social Security. Minimum retirement age is 56, and the pension is decreased about 30% if you don't stay to 60. You don't know what you are talking about.
8
@Raindog63 Fact remains that workers without pensions are on the hook to subsidize yours
2
@Kurt Pickard: Well, why don't we just all celebrate living in tents and scrounging for trashcan food in the our great race to the bottom. Resentment won't make life better for those who struggle...a better approach would be voting for people with the desire to close the gapping chasm of income disparity and creating a better social system that included universal heath care & affordable education.
17
@KaneSugar
There are already affordable options for college education. Some of the options are, or should be, obvious, and are widely exercised -- yet people moaning ignorantly about the "unaffordability" of college apparently don't know about those options or dismiss them without a good basis for doing so.
Community college for at least the first two years before switching to a four-year college, and living with family while doing so if possible.
Choosing an in-state government college rather than a much more expensive out-of-state private or government school.
Cook at home rather than getting a more expensive meal plan from the college, and work full-time during the summers and part-time during the academic years.
Show me some people who did these things and still claim that they can't afford college without massive debt. I've never met any.
(And I took many years paying back big student-loan debt precisely because I was not well-informed and not disciplined in this respect, and did NOT follow some of these pieces of advice. Too bad for me. I've never complained about the loans, because I took them out UN-necessarily and should have known better.)
See the book "Debt Free U" by Zack Bissonnette.
Now affordable MEDICAL care for all but the healthiest people, that's a different story.
What I'm reading here in the comments section appears to me to be a lot of jealousy. From post WWII until Reagan when many people had good paying jobs with good benefits people would ask:" How do I get a job like that?" Unfortunately with a decline in Union membership and representation (thanks to attacks by Republicans) people that don't have jobs that may pay as well as their neighbors with generous benefits are critical and demeaning of those jobs. Maybe these people should look in the mirror and ask: "How can I make my workplace better for myself and my work associates?" The answer may just be a phone call away at your Local Union Hall or Office. Don't whine, ORGANIZE!
25
@Hank K
Don't forget the 90% top tax rate. Add that to unions and it's why the 1950s look so good from here.
4
During the recession I had to get a second job taking disabled people to their appointments. I remember one person in particular that worked on Wall Street , she had a bone to pick with any government employee she would call and lie on them saying they were sleeping or simply doing their job poorly. She had put her son through school and he could not find employment, she would rant how her son deserved a job not these uneducated people.
I informed her her son could have applied for a government job if he wanted to, it’s there for all people.
7
I don’t know where the authors are getting their data on Federal salaries, but I work for the government and my salary is 1.5% more than it was seven years ago. And I’ve had pay cuts some of those years due to furloughs.
23
@Carol Lopilato
Sorry to hear of the furloughs, but your salary claim does not seem correct.
Even someone who works in the "Rest of the U.S." and therefore receives no "locality pay", received at least a 5.4% total pay increase from 2013 to 2018.
https://www.federalpay.org/gs/raises
Some of the fed employees, especially legal and medical personnel who could earn more in the private sector, should have received larger raises, to be sure. But I can't find ANY federal civilian employee who received a raise over years nearly as small as what you claim.
What do you mean good deal? These people WORK. If the managers and administrators think they have more workers than needed for the job, they can redeploy. They can stop over hiring. Workers without work is the responsibility of management. Stop blaming the workers for the errors of the managers and administrators.
10
You mentioned redeployment but not layoffs. In the private sector, I have not heard of redeployment; only layoffs. When people are laid off, it's not like they're waiting in the wings waiting to be called back.
They've applied for Unemployment Benefits and are looking for a new job.
4
A higher level of education is one argument used to explain why public employees are better compensated than those in the private sector. Wonder how many of our fed workers with relatively more education than the rest of us, are in jobs that actually require -- per official job description -- that education. Or are some like the book-shelver at the local public library who has a masters degree?
2
@J. Harmon Smith The job requirements are right there for you at fedjobs.gov. Have a look. There is very little degree inflation in federal employment, versus needing a BA in industry to answer the phone. Most of our secretaries are high school grad veterans these days.
2
Please be more specific when you call it a “pension.” Yes, it’s a defined benefit, but it’s not luxurious. A federal employee under the FERS program who works 30 years and earned $100k in their last three years will have a “pension” of $30k a year upon retirement. And that pension money is made up of both government and employee contribution during the working years. It’s more than a lot of private sector employees have, but it’s also not enough to retire on.
27
@Jennifer
I get that $30k pension and about the same in Social Security. I also have a $300,000 401(k). And my mortgage will be paid off in 6 months. I consider myself financially secure. Perhaps you drive a Mercedes.
9
I am not quite sure how speculating what brand of car I own has anything to do with the financial computations of what the federal defined benefit is. Lucky for me, I guess, I have even more money saved than you in my government 401(k) (TSP). Must be because I drive sensible cars?
18
Most private company retirement schemes have been designed on the “three legged stool” model - the combination of retirement benefit, social security and 401k withdrawals should be sufficient to replace around 80% of pre retirement compensation. The fact that your pension is around 30% of preretirement pay is consistent with that and nothing to feel sorry about.
Two things to consider re private company vs public benefits. First, private pensions are almost never subject to inflation adjustment, a feature that makes them ruinously expensive. Second, private sector pensions are being deemphasized in favor of slightly sweetened 401k plans. Again saving a private company lots of money.
6
Government employees should live by the same rules as those working in the private sector. When management decides to close down operations, people are laid off and begin the process of applying for Unemployment Benefits.
It doesn't matter if the decision to close down operations was ill-advised by management. The same principle of applying for Unemployment for private sector employees should apply to government employees. They simply are not entitled to back pay. Let them live by the same rules the rest of us do.
6
@Glenn Thomas
You don't know what you are talking about first of all career civil servants work under much higher scrutiny and mandatory regulations of ethics, than anyone in the private sector does, under penalty of dismissal, they also do not have the right to strike or collect unemployment in such situations, but can be forced to work without pay, and are always under the Spector or individuals in the public sector who always are looking over the shoulders of Federal Employees, who rarely know the facts or what they are talking about, much like Donald Trump.
10
@Glenn Thomas
Same rules?!? Last I checked, the private sector can’t force employees to work without pay. Your proposal is asinine because many federal employees perform essential functions such as air traffic control.
10
Because so many federal workers live in DC, the Washington Post has the inside track on how these employees are faring. It notes that the federal 401(k) is generous and many federal employees are getting by with 401(k) loans.
I worked for the feds for many years and my wife was a teacher. We could afford child care so both of us could work. If I had been laid off, i would have done the child care and we would have lived off her salary. It should also be noted that many local banks are extending low cost loans to furloughed employees.
I can’t speak for everybody, but we would have gotten by without fear of a crisis. It would have been the new employees and low-paid employees who would have been hurt. But they have less at stake and would be more likely to quit
5
@michjas - New employees and low paid employees are people too.
4
As my mom would say" better to have lower pay that is stable then a high salary followed by unemployment" This was because I became a contractor after my last layoff with unemployment for about 3 months between each contract thus reducing my salary for the year not to mention the stress and work invovled finding something new. I lost count of the layoffs in the finanical sector. I want to say I have been through 4. My brother in law retired from NASA after about 30 years of working back in the good ol days and would tell me stories about his generous pension making almost his same salary and how a secretary with a high school education made almost 100k while I was slaving away for my 30k.
4
@hilliard: Your brother-in-law was lying to you.
7
Comparison of Federal and Private Sector Pay and Benefits shows that Federal employees lag behind private sector employees for like jobs The studies conducted by the government are broken down in by cites and do result in a small increase in government pay. I am long retired, but when I was working we used to get a locality pay that was supposed to narrow the gap. Usually we got about 10 to 20 percent of the difference so even after this we still lagged behind
I must admit I stayed with the government because there was never any pressure to cut corners to make a profit. It was very easy to take pride in your work and do it right.
16
Fed rule #1: The government can do anything for you, or anything to you.
Seems that that rule has now bled into the private sector, with the latter part more common than the former.
6
To underscore a point made by others here: the defined benefit pension for feds hired after 1986 (under FERS) is much less than what prior hires got (under CSRS). It's also less (as a percentage of last or highest salary averages) than state employees, teachers, or other public servants often get. Still, it's an excellent retirement system, with 401K-account type matching, and retiree health benefits, that enable some to leave before age 65.
12
This article is misleading. Federal workers with little education make out fairly well compared to work in the private sector. But Feds with a college degree or higher tend to be significantly UNDERPAID compared to peers working for large companies of a similar size to Federal agencies/departments. It is not uncommon for experienced Federal employees to leave Federal service, join a Fortune 500 company, and make 50% more in salary instantly (if not more). Feds stay in government service because they are committed to the mission—whether it’s counterterrorism, protecting the environment, advancing space exploration, or keeping our food supply safe. The jobs are indeed more stable in economic downturns, and yes they do provide a MODEST pension (though usually only if you retire with 20 years of government service). But let’s not create the impression that these jobs pay well when compared to the private sector —they don’t.
31
@John. Feds stay in public service because it's a good gig overall. Mission is an insufficient motivator by itself, and I hate to throw water on your claim, but many of us private sector workers place importance on mission as well.
6
Here's the 411. The private sector has been like trying to survive the hunger games. Increased expected productivity output on a quarter over quarter basis, continual downsizing, "right" sizing and lower benefits and compensation.
All of my family members that were lucky enough to work for government positions are retired now enjoying good health and pension benefits for life. The system is upside down, and has been since the Reagan adminstration. Time for a new America 2.0
28
@Strange Trip. Hope you appreciate the sacrifices taxpayers make to keep public workers in better circumstances than they can afford themselves.
3
@J. Harmon Smith - What was keeping those sacrificing taxpayers from applying for a government job themselves?
9
There should never have been millions of federal government jobs. The tasks wont get done? Those tasks shouldn't exist in the first place.
This is a great time to get rid of trillions in taxpayer expenses while ridding ourselves of thousands of nanny state policies.
Keep the shutdown going until the attrition gets so bad every three letter agency not named DOD has to fold.
9
@John like NSA, FDA, Air Traffic Control. Also, the employees within the Department of Homeland Security’s Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) -- are securing infrastructure industries like banking, water, energy and nuclear, protecting them from "friendly" nations.
16
What you suggest is utterly impractical.
The DoD isn’t the only agency that provides essential public services that the private sector wouldn’t do.
8
@John: See & hear the stories of what is happening in out National Parks....now just imagine that putrid, violent chaos impacting every facet of life in our nation. Without a functioning government life is nothing more that a gladiatorial fight for survival. Even recent history teaches us that if you cared to learn.
14
How is it right that government employees get higher pay, longer vacations, more personal time, better pensions and employment for life, while the rest of the country doesn't? Those with less than a high school education, as evidenced by the NYT bar chart, earn twice than the private sector and only those with advanced degrees make slightly more than their counterparts that work for the government. On top of that only 62% of federal employees were found to be satisfied with their jobs compared to 78% of private sector employees. How can that be when the average salary of the 2.7 million federal employees is $70,100 compared to the average salary of $44,000 for 2.7 million private sector workers? Adding insult to injury, we're supposed feel bad because they're living paycheck to paycheck? It's Trump's fault that they've made poor financial decisions, that they didn't squirrel enough money away for such emergencies? That's rich. What needs to be done is to privatize all but the most essential government jobs. Strip away all the safeguards and bloated perks of being a federal employee and let them compete, and worry about their jobs, in the open marketplace. Only then can you take a place at the table and complain with the rest of us.
10
@Kurt Pickard
Would you prefer our country be defended, our foreign policy made, our cancer research undertaken, our budget spending managed, our veterans treated, our federal courts staffed, by people who couldn't cut it in the private sector? Or would you prefer the government offer pay and benefits that attract qualified people to these jobs?
33
You’re right, Kurt, workers in the private sector should make a fair wage, have good healthcare and have the ability to retire like government workers. Why should those of us working for corporations not receive a fair share of the spoils when a company does well? Why does it all stay at the top? This happens in the form of stock options, bonuses, company retreats and perks, as well as Golden Parachutes.
The people that provide the products and services that make a company profitable should be receiving their fair share. 40-50 years ago, when “America was great”, the workers in this country did receive pensions, healthcare benefits and were able to afford a place to live and take a vacation once a year. Nowadays, people work harder for less.
In addition, many people have to get assistance from the government and private charities to afford to have a roof over their head or food on the table. In effect, this gives subsidies to many companies that don’t pay people adequately to afford food and shelter on their salaries alone.
Rather than be angry that someone who works hard gets a fair deal when they work as a public servant, you should be angry that private companies have taken their windfall of tax breaks and not given it back to workers in the form of livable wage and better benefits.
30
@Jane K
Big difference Jane. The government is a non-profit, the private sector is not. The government agencies don't answer to the public regarding their efficiency or ability to control costs. Government employees work to their carefully crafted job descriptions and pay grade and go home at night. Government agencies and their employees have no foot in the marketplace or any competition. Private enterprise has the marketplace, shareholders and competition to answer to and compete against. They offer no job for life security. Virgil was correct when he said, "Fortune favors the bold."
1
"...until the pay stopped..."
I recognize all too many are living paycheck to paycheck and making ends meet is a sometimes insane challenge.
One of the most important lessons I learned was, when paying bills, PAY YOURSELF FIRST. 10% of your net pay, into an untouchable account that just sits until you need it. NEED IT. Not for movies, shoes, or Christmas presents.
Live off the rest. You have to be frugal for a while to get the hang of it. But it works.
22
Repeatedly declaring all federal works receive a pension doesn't make it so. Under the Federal Emplyoyee Retirement System, we receive an annuity equaling 1% of our salary for each year of service. We pay a portion of our salary towards that benefit every month. We also have a 401k style account to which we can contribute every month. Neither of those things is what you were trying to convey with the word "pension."
So not only is the tone of the article mean, the facts are wrong.
32
@Gail I am not trying to be mean here but "an annuity to which you contribute each paycheck" and receive 1 percent of salary for each year worked is a defined benefit pension. A defined contribution pension is a 401K where the employees save their own money and the employer matches a percentage. The current Federal retirement program (FERS), which has been in place since January 1, 1984 is a Hybrid plan and involves both the defined benefit plan and defined contribution plan along with contributing to and receiving Social Security.
10
@Gail
And the federal taxpayers match federal employees' Thrift Savings Plan contributions up to about 5% of salary, which is a meaningful benefit and increasingly hard to find in the private sector.
1
The shutdown means absolutely nothing to Trump. He is hurting the people he least cares about--people he thinks are undeserving, and most importantly people who probably didn't vote for him! Yes, once again, it is all about Trump!
His sycophantic peanut gallery goes along with this disgusting attitude. It made me sick to see Fox News and other right-wing sources insult and denigrate Federal workers. They seemed to have fallen right into the racist mode used to describe immigrants--lazy, superfluous, a drag on the economy and other stomach-churning mischaracterizations.
Our Federal workers are the backbone of our society, but the Republican agenda is to kill all government and privatize everything with an enormous decrease in efficiency and huge increased costs (which go to the oligarchs, of course).
Donald Trump is the complete enemy of the Federal work force. He thinks they are all Democrats, so no one needs to pay attention to them. His party hacks also think they are disproportionately black and brown people, who of course, don't deserve anything. Most importantly to them, they won't vote for Republicans. And after this shutdown debacle, this is undoubtedly going to be true--a self-fulfilling prophecy.
28
@William O, Beeman
If they're so important, you should be demanding that Speaker Pelosi increase her offer above $1 and make a deal.
2
@Hank48188/Canton,Mi
I suggest you drag yourself away from FOX news and watch
THE FLIGHT CHANNEL for a day. Then tell me that Air Traffic
Controllers, with their education, skill and training are not entitled to proper compensation.
You whine about everyone's wages being too high but never mention CEO wages which amount to 400X the average workers
take home pay. How come that doesn't seem to bother you?
51
@RYR.G
A fair point, RYR.G, but it's not an either/or choice.
Some of us -- yes, Republicans, Independents, and even Trump voters -- are offended BOTH by grossly overpaid elitist CEOs, bankers and brokers, as you rightly are -- AND by ungrateful, relatively unmotivated federal employees who likely would not have equivalent (let alone better) options in the private marketplace.
The first three words of the Constitution of The United States of America are “We the People” not, We the People that Support Trump. I fervently believe the Trump views anyone and everyone that does not submit to his autocratic leadership style to be an enemy. I encourage all Americans to reach out to each other and share your points of view in an adult not insulting or violent manner. Trump has painted himself in a corner with this protracted government shutdown. He is acting like a cornered animal and fighting. This is his preferred method of negotiations. Trump is not going to change; the Senate must get over their fear of Trump and do their job getting the America government back to work and out of this deadlock.
24
I think what we dont appreciate is these people are public servants just like military and unformed border officers. That they dont put their lives on the line makes them no less valuable to our country. I personally know military people who have never been in a combat zone and only joined for the benefits.
17
This article is misleading when it represents that salaries of federal workers are higher than in the private sector and have increased significantly more than in the private sector. In many areas of federal employment, particularly positions in what are traditionally considered professional jobs such as attorneys and doctors, salaries as a federal employee are SIGNIFICANTLY less than one would make in the private sector, even after federal pensions are taken into account. Just as an example, a federal judge (a difficult to attain position typically held by seasoned attorneys with impeccable educational and professional credentials) has the same annual salary as a 25 year-old, first-year attorney in a large NY or Chicago or LA law firm. As for “raises,” Federal judicial salaries generally see no increase year to year other than a small cost-of-living adjustment.
34
From a federal employee POV - When the new administration came in, many people either retired or were "encouraged" to retire. When people leave, those positions are not filled due to a hiring freeze. Remaining employees are left to do the work of 2-3 FTEs. One person in my office died, and despite the circumstances, his position wasn't filled, so I assumed his responsibilities on top of my own. The pension system went away in 1987. After 1987 everyone went to 401Ks. We experience the ups and downs of the market as everyone else. A salary freeze is in effect. This means that our salary isn't adjusted for inflation or cost of living; this lasts for years. The workplace can be toxic, demoralizing, and political. Many people stay within the government system, but they move from agency to agency. So despite the appearance of a stable job, there's quite a bit of turnover internal to the federal system. Because of the shutdown, people are taking out loans, cashing in 401Ks, and selling items just to make ends meet. Yes, we'll get back pay, but that doesn't help if you've defaulted on last month's mortgage and missed your car payment. Also imagine being that same person and having to work. Yes, there are people worse off and we're blessed with our jobs, but I just wanted to give you a glimpse of what it's like on the inside. And despite what the president says, the majority of us do not support the shutdown. It's a slap in the face when he says that.
43
@Ed
I also think that the shutdown was, on balance, ill-advised. But neither Trump nor the Democrats forced federal employees -- like most Americans -- to live in an irresponsible, childish, short-sighted manner.
It is stupid to spend on non-necessities instead of putting away substantial reserves for emergencies.
To get very specific and "judgmental", if someone smokes tobacco or marijuana, that's money that could and should be saved for hard times -- or don't whine when you get stuck with no way to pay the mortgage / rent.
Same with money spent on alcohol.
Same with money spent on expensive coffee drinks, $700 to $1,000 smartphones, cable/satellite TV at $50 or $100 or more every month, lottery tickets or other gambling, video games (yes, adults blow a ton of money on these) and many more things.
Same with people who buy new vehicles instead of used vehicles when they don't even have a positive net worth (or don't bother to figure out what their net worth is).
Same with money spent on major vacations by people who are still in debt.
Anyone who indulged in luxuries instead of saving, has little right to complain about willfully letting themselves remain helpless and broke.
Grow up, federal workers and everyone else, and SAVE for a rainy day.
I feel mixed about this. I work with some Federal workers and have found them to be a rather entitled and unsympathetic group. They don't mind holding up payments to contractors for paperwork the feds have misplaced, nor do they treat people with respect. It's too bad that they have lost their paychecks, but the janitor in their building works for much less, was outsourced years ago, and will not be getting his back pay. If a federal worker were to express sympathy for the janitor today, it would be a first.
Finally, lots of Feds, who I have heard complain about 'big government' all the time, are Trump supporters.
10
@Chazak
Appreciate your comment, but the solid majority of federal civilian employees did NOT and do not support President Trump. In a big country with a large government, that will of course still leave "lots" of feds who support Trump.
Also, someone can have a principled view -- consistent with that old U.S. Constitution -- that the federal government should operate a well-staffed, well-funded national defense, border security, park system, and court system, but NOT perform functions in all areas of life that are not among the fed gov's specifically enumerated powers.
If the federal worker is in, say, HHS or HUD or the DEA, and complains about big government, he's not being consistent with the Constitution.
If he is a soldier or a federal court employee, though, for example, he can logically advocate for other, unconstitutional federal agencies to be cut or eliminated.
I worked for the Federal Government for a while as a laboratory technologist. I did not have a pension. I had the Thrift Savings Plan - which is like a 401k. They matched a certain amount, but that was about it. Not sure who is getting the pensions these days. The pay was ok, but not exceptional. Indeed, I made more when I eventually went to a private company.
The government is too important to shut down for ANY amount of time. Despite the hysterics of the right wingers, the Federal Government is what makes things work. It should be illegal to shut down for even an hour.
37
@Joe Rockbottom
Really? Every federal employee has contributions for the basic pension plan deducted from their salary. If you had at least five years of service, you can leave your contributions with the government and claim an annuity when you reach retirement age OR you can request a refund of what you paid in.
3
@Joe Rockbottom
Unless things have changed drastically since you were a fed gov employee -- or unless your agency was somehow an outlier -- you would have a federal pension.
Each biweekly or monthly paycheck of a fed civilian employee has both a taxpayer ("government") contribution to pension and a required employee contribution to pension.
I have an average American life. I'm not poor, I'm not rich. I can't say that this work shutdown has affected my life at all. Perhaps we can reduce the number of federal workers by 1/4, and put them on 10-year contracts or five-year contracts for 2 year contracts instead of making it a lifetime thing. Boom. Bunch of problems solved. there'd be enough money to build the wall, improve public education, and have money left over.
9
@Observer of the Zeitgeist The shutdown has not affected you (yet) because many of the employees are working without pay. Others provide behind-the-scene support for programs the directly affect (or will likely affect) you in the future.
15
I pray that the American people remember Trump's brutal cruelty when 2020 comes around. The misery Trump is causing needs to be punished at the ballot box.
20
I wish the NYTimes and others would stop saying Federal workers get a good deal, they don't, they get a fair deal. Just because corporate America has gotten away with crushing unions and stiffing their employees with an ever downward spiral of benefits does not mean Federal workers are not getting what EVERY worker should have.
Every time you repeat this canard you reinforce the myth that Federal employees are getting something they don't deserve. They do and all Americans do!
85
@AusTex True, I don't begrudge the fed employees their salaries and benefits ( well maybe the ones at my local post office) They contribute to the economy and create the middle class. It goes to show you how far down private salaries and benefits have gone when we deem federal salaries and benefits as being too high.
11
@AusTex
What an excellent post.
5
It's true that federal employment looks good when compared to the increasingly dismal working conditions in the private sector. However, the article is somewhat distorted. You cite certain benefits as givens but which in reality take 20, 25, or 30 years of service to accrue. Retirement accounts like the Thrift Savings Plan are conceptually closer to 401(K)s, while the pension (annuity) component of the Federal Employees Retirement System is subject to deductions for health insurance premiums. Since a worker's health insurance is subtracted, the pension itself is rather meagre. Moreover, most federal employees don't double their salaries every ten years, and it can take decades to move up the step increase ladder. In the meantime, federal workers must navigate unpredictable political whimsy in the form of pay and promotion freezes. They must deal with ever changing workplace rules and policies that vary according to the frequently unqualified and incompetent political wonk appointed to head an agency (a campaign of anti-science at the current EPA for example). Finally, they must contend with a vitriolic right-wing media machine intent on scapegoating them for a variety of ills that are utterly beyond their control, as when NPS rangers were called Nazis during the 2013 shutdown.
39
This article is clear clickbait to sow division and resentment. Why does the NYT want to do this? Mexico - Russian oil alliance?
15
Federal workers ( no all but many ) are over paid, slow , and have bad attitudes.
They would not survive in the private sector.
Perhaps we don't need as many.
The money saved can go to helping poor inner city schools.
4
"While the ranks of federal government workers have not expanded, their average salaries have increased more than those in the private sector. This is partly because the government employs many highly skilled professionals, like economic analysts and scientists."
Thus making side by side comparisons to the private sector where most workers are low skilled inappropriate and causes this article to be misleading. I have a Masters of Science, had a gone into the private work world my salary would be much higher. I serve the public, since I value the resources that I work for and value the lower stress more stable work environment (typically).
20
The last three decades have seen the erosion of private sector unions.The public sector unions have flourished and along with it pay and benefits.What the people in the private sector need to realize is that they for the most part are labor and unions on average are good for the average worker. The political parties on both sides have stripped private sector unions of there power and unless this reverses I predict the public sector unions will meet the same fate with the same result. All you have to do is read the letters and you can see there are many who have no sympathy for the federal workers. Instead they should asking themselves why they are in an inferior position? The labor movement created the middle class and as the labor movement goes so does the middle class.
17
We will likely spend more on the shutdown than President Trump's wall. Isn't it time for Speaker Pelosi and democrats to stop claiming their opposition is about not wanting to waste money?
2
@AACNY Spending $5.7 Billion on a boondoggle that will not solve much of anything is a waste of money. The President and GOP claim is founded on a lie. Its bad enough we have to buy more weapons than we could ever possibly need while roads, bridges and tunnels are crumbling and 20% of American children live below the poverty line. You're saying ignore that and let's build a wall?
26
@AACNY I project that you agree with Trumps strategy of manufacturing pain and leverage to win a negotiation. Or, one could say you agree with blackmail and hostage taking. As a business owner and operator, I’ve seen this maneuver before. I fired my customer when they withheld payment for services delivered to obtain better future rates. You don’t deal with people like Trump or hostage takers ever… less you’re your weak and are prepared to be manipulated again and again.
17
And Trump volunteered publicly and to the Senate leaders the shutdown is not only his doing and his responsibility but that he’s proud of it. I wonder if Donald Trump is proud of how much it’s costing Americans, since it’s probably already even more than his idiotic wall ruse that he promised 200-plus times America wouldn’t be paying for.
12
It is sloppy journalism to talk about health insurance casually in a story that is about the specific benefits of one job. Health insurance is one thing when it costs $100.00 biweekly and carries an annual deductible of $1,000 per family per year and another thing when the biweekly cost is $150 and the deductible is $12,000 per family per year. On an income under $50,000 per year you might easily be one health crisis away from bankruptcy on the latter. I'm not sure people who work in the public sector and have insurance closer to the former understand life in the private sector, or even worse as a self-employed person. The details matter. Your piece glosses over them.
9
Interesting that the article uses examples of federal workers in 2 deep red states. Is this not just another example of supposedly anti government states reaping the benefits of what they denounce? Farm subsidies, Medicaid and other programs are other examples of federal government intervention in places where a misinformed and manipulated electorate votes against their interests while believing that the government is the enemy ( along with the press...).
10
If you went to work for the feds after the 1980s, you have a defined benefits plan (TSP); this is dependent on how much you, the employee, put in the account with your employer match. The Washington Post was answering questions from federal employees regarding what will happen if they dip into TSP which would seem to imply that federal employees are not doing so well.
The aging of the federal workforce and the prevalence of advanced degrees is why it seems to pay more than the private sector (where I work, most employees have either a PhD or an MA). It's a good job, yes, but it's not quite the gravy train implied by this headline.
In exchange for these jobs (and my colleagues often work overtime to get the job done), federal employees have been vilified by the Right for decades. It is incredibly demoralizing. Added to this is the fact that every four years, most federal employees have a new boss---a political appointee who usually knows absolutely nothing about the field or the agency but who wants to "shake" things up and who can make things deeply difficult for federal employees who generally know the laws and regulations. Sadly, these no-nothing political appointees come from both Democrat and Republican presidents.
27
Federal workers no longer have a pension per se, at lease those employed after 1988 or so, when the Thift Savings Program was instituted, which is similar to the 401k in the private sector. Prior to that Federal workers retired with a pension that was equivalent to their average pay for their last 3 years of employment which was overly generously compared to anything offered by the private sector. Thank you.
7
The pension plan prior to1986, was NOT equivalent to the average of the last 3 years of service, it was a percentage of the the high 3 years, typically the last 3 years, the maximum tops out at 80% after 41 years and 8 months. If one were to retire after 30 years of service the annuity would be 56%.
7
@Southern Boy
Wrong and wrong. Current federal employees who qualify, basically 10 years of service and age 55 minimum, still get a reduced pension in addition to their TSP and Social Security they pay into just like anyone else. Prior was two thirds of your average pay based on your "high three" with no SS as you didn't pay into it during your career. Facts matter.
2
It's time the angry white Trump "base" and all Republican voters confessed that they have profited well from federal spending and all that big bad "government" the Republicans have been trying so hard to cripple, corrupt, dismantle and starve with tax breaks for the rich since Ronald Reagan. In my and my husband's families alone, the three most affluent and comfortably retired members are two career federal employees and a NASA contract employee. Of course, they were well-educated to get those good jobs, back when college tuition cost hardly more than a car payment and required no student debt because federal and state governments invested so much more in higher education than now. Federal spending also "trickles down" to help pay the salaries of the second generation of our families who work in law enforcement and state forestry fighting fires. All local and state government workers, including teachers, are subsidized by federal spending and what middle-class family doesn't have one or two of them around the Thanksgiving table? Of course, all businesses and their employees profit from the spending of these government employees too. Probably half of the middle class wouldn't even be middle-class without government jobs and government spending. Look in the mirror, Republican voters.
20
@abigail49
I commented in greater detail above, college education does not "require" debt. People repeating it ad nauseam doesn't make it true.
As for businesses benefitting when fed employees spend their salaries/pensions, would the money magically disappear and not be spent if it were left in the hands of taxpayers instead?
You have some good points but overstate the case.
It is sobering that there are so many stories, here and elsewhere, of middle-aged, professional level employees who are selling things after one missed paycheck. I guess that much hyped story a while back that 40 % of Amercians could not come up with $400 was true. Holding so many employees' pay hostage to the whims of Trump is yet another display of his deficits.
13
Another week or so and the spending decreases due to furloughed and unpaid federal workers, will have an impact on confidence in the economy.
As the time since the last recession goes beyond 10 years and financial jitters have invaded the stock market, confidence is the only factor bolstering economic growth. The loss of salaries for 800,000 well paid jobs will have an impact. The science of economics might say the impact is uncertain, but the unpredictable variable in the mix is consumer and business confidence.
It is presently a house of cards and Trump, with his macho power temper tantrum is well on his way to pulling the key card from the bottom of the pile.
Will folks believe it before it happens? Have economists accurately predicted any of the last few recessions? No, and No. But we're there!
10
When ANY employee believes they are "entitled" to regular wage and benefit increases and their employer enables that type of thinking, it is a recipe for disaster. The Federal government has become a cash cow for lifetime bureaucrats who feed off the hard earned taxes of Americans in the private sector. No pity felt here for these "entitled" workers who are whining because they are furloughed during the current budget impasse. If they have not been smart enough to put money aside for this eventuality, that tells you all you need to know about their own smarts.
4
@paul When the value of money steadily decreases, then yes, workers are entitled to regular pay increases to keep up with that inflation. The outrage is not that people expect this who work for the Federal Government, it's that not EVERYONE expects this.
8
One "little problem" in the federal system is that in places outside the capital area GS grades are lower for positions similar to DC area ones.
Additionally, some people in high supervisory positions can and will eliminate lower grade support positions to have the funds to upgrade themselves or create a high level job for themselves. Saw both of these happen. Both done by women. Heaven knows what the fellows are up to.
4
I still do not understand why federal workers who are not being paid cannot legally stop going to work (if exempted). A previous article tried to explain it in terms that federal workers by law cannot strike. But this is not striking. This is the federal breaking the contract by not paying them for their labor, in fact expecting them to go to work without pay is forced labor. How can that be legal? How, to begin with, can it be legal for the president to use these workers as peons to push a bill through at their expense? In other circumstances that would be bribing and it is morally abominable. I do hope that they are legally entitled to retroactive payment. Otherwise, it would be literally forced labor. There must be some way around this abuse of power since this causes a chain reaction if their checks are delayed in terms of paying bills (which will not allow postponement of payments). Amazing.
14
@tdb: So American taxpayers should provide full back pay for essential federal workers for not working during the government shutdown? Convoluted thinking at best, and fiscally irresponsible.
2
So American taxpayers should pay for a wall the president, in order to get himself elected, promised publicly more than 200 times Americans would not have to pay for?
PS. At least now we know Republicans believe Americans should be forced to work without being paid. How demented.
9
@Kip
You're right that we shouldn't pay for the wall and other needed increases in border security ourselves.
During the campaign, Trump proposed a tax on cash remittances to recipients abroad. That would cover the whole cost of the Wall.
So I assume you would support that as a solution to this impasse, right?
Private sector salaries have been flat since the 1970s (figure), plus diminished benefits and poor representation are a factor in the difference with federal jobs.
6
I worked for the Feds from 1977 to my retirement (at 55) in 2008. When I started, pay was abysmal. This was especially true for those of us working in NYC since pay was the same everywhere. NYC, Boston, Biloxi or Birmingham. Great for some, terrible for others. This started to change under Bush I with "locality pay." Gradually we began to seem some real pay raises. (The Unions opposed it and never thanked Bush). Then Clinton got elected and everyone got promoted plus we got to work at home one day a week. Under Bush II we all got promoted again and started working 2 days a week at home. I retired before Obama but I heard people now work at home 3 days a week. My wife (also a Fed) and I experienced several furloughs. For us it was an extra vacation. Furloughs are no longer an unheard of ocurrance. But some folks just can't, or don't, prepare for shutdowns. At least it is not a job loss.
5
Please explain how a TSA agent works from home. Please explain how a flight controller works from home. Etc. Etc. Etc.
13
@RL They do not and if they do not show up in numbers this will cause this shutdown to end.
2
@cleo NIH researchers, National Weather Service meteorologists, VA doctors and nurses, FBI agents, OSHA inspectors, customs agents, TSA, IRS tax return processors, U.S. diplomats abroad, and anyone who needs to access classified materials, are examples of federal employees who cannot work at home.
True, some jobs can be done at home. In that way they are similar to the private sector.
4
I question the criteria used in that chart regarding the salaries of Federal workers in relation to the Private Sector.
I worked in the DOD for 32 years and my counter parts in the Private Sector in my same capacity were paid much higher in salary and had less overall stress on them.
In fact until I saw this chart, most Federal Salaries have lagged behind the Private Sector jobs doing the same function or job, the one reason many people forgo working in the private sector and work in the government for less money, is stability and dedication to public service, location or type of job, in addition to a pension.
I think this article is way misleading regarding the salary comparison, those facts are just plain wrong.
Also Federal Employees receiving a pension from the old pension system CSRS either DO NOT receive Social Security, unless they paid in enough quarters prior to, or after their Federal Employment, which is then greatly reduced due to an offset formula receiving very little social security payment due to them.
Where as all private sector jobs who do receive pensions receive full SS payments as well as their pensions.
30
@Chico This is not what I have heard from people who have gone from the private sector to the public sector. Try retiring and having to pay for health care from the private sector. About 24k a year for my wife and I. A lot of federal workers receive health benefits and have no idea how much those health benefits are worth until the medicare age is reached.
3
@Chico As a retired postal employee I salute your analysis. The headline here is very misleading and brings out the "spoiled govt worker" crowd.
11
@Chico
"I think this article is way misleading regarding the salary comparison, those facts are just plain wrong."
Definitely misleading, but probably not incorrect facts.
Most of the people at the BLS (where this data comes from), would probably scream at this article if they weren't currently worried about their employment status. They are representing distributions of populations through averages (means), a big no-no in statistics. They need to be using medians and preferably some sort of way to show standard deviation for accurate comparison.
Also, it's very strange to see the biases of commenters here so easily (both right and left). What's truly happening is that some federal employees are not working (non-essential), some are (essential). Some agencies have been funded through September and are also working.
Those funded agency employees will receive back pay, as will the working essential employees. Those unworking non-essential employees will not receive back pay since they are not working (which is why they are eligible for unemployment).
Facts are truly inconvenient for all individuals with political agendas.
2
The federal government is fine to work for if the Republican Party is not in power as they are prone to shutting down the federal government to prove a point, usually for their own gain. This has happened three times in my memory and the federal employees suffered, the economy suffered, and the United States Republican government looked as though it couldn’t run a country. If you want a paycheck don’t work for the Feds during a Republican administration. I wouldn’t.
16
Whatever became of "Solidarity Forever?" If the AFL/CIO, UAW and other labor unions threatened and then went on a coordinated, nationwide sympathy strike, the economy would be crippled and Trump would have to stop insisting on his ridiculous wall and reopen the goverment. Worker of the USA unite!
6
@tony83703
Or Dems and DT can compromise.
Not as if this is a first time a physical barrier is going up in our long border with Mexico.
Maybe Pelosi also needs to come down from her hardened position.
7
@Mehul Shah Do you even know what compromise means? Compromise doesn't mean "Donald Trump's opponents cave to his demands."
The House and the Senate passed legislation in December to re-open the government, and the President refused to sign it. This shut down is on him, and him alone.
Why should they simply give him what he wants, in exchange for nothing, when he has no leverage in this negotiation whatsoever? It's hilarious how you people love your "dealmaker" President so much, when he has shown that he literally has no clue how the process of "negotiation" actually works.
5
@Mehul Shah. maybe trump, who pounded the table and walked out of the last negotiation, needs to come down from his hardened position. he made it clear that further sitdowns would be unproductive.
1
So interesting that what was a "low paying, government job" before 2008 is suddenly a "steady raises, cushy job" after 2008. What a lot of ignorant, forgetful people in America. Allowing your government to be hijacked will not bring back your private sector jobs. Ending corporate welfare will.
26
It’s PATCO all over again. It’s no secret that Republicans want to banish unions from the face of the earth, and what better way than to attack the last bastion of organized labor in the United States, the public employees unions? The Democrats know this, but rather than save federal workers and their good jobs, they stubbornly refuse to compromise a inch on the wall because nothing is more important than resisting Trump.
6
Federal workers have a pension because part of their salary is kicked down street until they retire via an annuity. The salary they get every two weeks is considerably lower then they could get in industry. In my case about fifty percent.
The same is true of the health benefits. Essentially the Fed requires the worker to take the benefit annuity or lose money. The retired Fed must pay for the health benefit which is deducted from the retirement payment.
And, if the retiree has worked forty quarters in industry before becoming a Fed, he/she cannot get full Social Security payments.
15
All true, but also important to note that in the new (since late 80s) federal retirement system, FERS, social security is part of the “three legged stool” for federal employees. Under FERS, federal employees contribute fully to social security and upon reaching the required age they receive the amount in accordance with their contributions and age at the time of taking the social security.
But I agree wholeheartedly that the federal health and retirement benefits are a trade off for lower salaries. The federal government already has major problems recruiting qualified staff because so many people are more interested in higher salaries immediately; now with this long shutdown, it will be even more difficult.
15
@Hank My company also put away money for me until the pension was terminated by a federal judge with a federal pension.Now my pension is a fifth of what it was and it is in the hands of the US taxpayer through the PBGC. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. I refer to this as the Pension Benefit Gut Corporation because my benefit was gutted.
3
A note of clarification about government “pensions.” Following the lead of the private sector, the federal government switched from a defined benefit plan (Civil Service Retirement System or CSRS) to a defined contribution plan (Federal Employees Retirement System or FERS) in 1987.
Under CSRS, federal workers contribute 7-8% of their pay to their annuity, generally don’t pay into Social Security, but pay into Medicare. The agency matches employee contributions. An employee’s annuity is determined by length of service and the highest 3 years of pay. An employee who spends his/her career in the federal government can expect their annuity to replace a large proportion of the pay they received while employed.
Under FERS, federal workers’ retirement comprises a “Basic Benefit” (annuity) based on years of service and the highest 3 years of pay, Social Security and contributions to the Thrift Savings Plan (a 401k plan). The employee contributes to all three, although TSP contributions are not mandatory. The government contributes to all three, including 1% of salary to TSP.
After almost 19 years of service under FERS, my federal annuity replaces less than 18% of my salary; not much of a “pension.” Without significant annual contributions to TSP (matched up to 5% of salary by the government), the three-legged stool of FERS would replace less than 50% of the salary I earned while employed.
Not all government “pensions” are created equal.
25
In recent weeks I have seen a lot of vitrol from the anti-government segments. Comments here are quite mild compared to other sites!
This article does a good job of bringing out the differences between public and private sector work. But indeed, as commenters have indicated, there are differences in pension benefits vs. 401Ks, depending on how long employees have been working .
Currently on furlough due to all of this. But, in spite of disdain from others I have enough to carry us over for another couple months--without any assistance--but some would hold that against me as well! I've saved as much as I can with 401Ks, but if this continues for many months I'll have to seek other employment.
I've spent about half my career as fed employee, the other half a mix of academia, state agencies, and private sector. I started out as an intern and volunteer for a year and a half, making subsistence wages even though I had a bachelor's degree. Then got in as a GS-3, then 5-6 for a couple years. Was not until I got advanced degrees and many years of specific work experience that I got on full-time. Good benefits now, but high opportunity cost to get established.
In my field most work (incl. private sector) comes from federal funding. There are very few corporate jobs doing what we do, and even of those most would be to comply with federal or state rules and regulations--designed to ensure public safety and sustainability of resources. Otherwise, we'd be back in the 19th century.
18
I worked in financial services for a couple of decades, working my way from clerk to manager while earning my bachelors degree in Business at night. Good job, money, benefits and co-workers, nice lifestyle. Layoff (to increase profits - the company was making money but wanted to make more) just before the crash of 2008 put everything I had worked for financially in jeopardy. After scrambling for a few years in manual labor (tough, uncertain, moderate pay) I landed a job in state government where I've been for 7 years. Good job, money (even though it's a fraction of the private sector pay), benefits and co-workers, nice lifestyle but not nearly as flashy as in the private sector. I work longer hours for less pay than I did in financial services but the job is more rewarding. Government employees get a really bad rap, mostly by people who don't have a clue that's who makes government work at all. This shut down is disgraceful and the president and republican congress are to blame.
44
People took government jobs at a time when the private sector was booming and the government pay was half the private sector pay. No one remembers that because now, the private sector has been driven into the ground in 2008 by lack of government regulations on Wall Street. They took the money and ran. They didn't reinvest in businesses that created jobs. Now, those people want to end the government and they are pitting those hurt in 2008 against those who took "for sure" jobs that paid low for all those previous years. Shutting the government is not the answer to ending the evil that is stealing the money from America. Wake up!
22
@RCJCHC
Very true. I joined the federal government in the 80s when the private sector offered generous signing and retention bonuses and stock options to employees, offered subsidized parking and gym memberships, and also offered generous expense accounts to nearly every employee. People in the private sector pretend they did not benefit from the abundance of cash that flowed to employees. They are bitter now because times have changed and they enjoy taking out their frustrations on government workers.
7
My God!
Some Security and Bennnies - How very fifties, sixties and seventies.
The corporate state since then continually presses its boot more heavily on workers' necks.
It began with Reagan and never stopped.
28
I just watched Dick Durbin admit he intended to take his salary during the shutdown. He looked a bit chagrined and claimed to need it to support himself and besides he was working. So, I checked on his approximate net worth: a bit over $1.3 M.
What he should be saying is he doesn't want to sell any stocks or bonds he owns in order to cover expenses. I wonder how different he would feel if he had to pawn his wife's wedding ring or postpone insulin for his child.
Durbin illustrates the chasmic difference between voters and votees. We are inconvenient necessities every couple of years. Not that I have any possible solutions. But it is a baseline reality we need to recognize.
I am a Democrat and I too hear that bus rolling up behind me.
16
@Susan Perhaps you should check Trumps net worth and ask whether he draws his salary during the shutdown he caused.
4
@Christopher
He doesn’t take a paycheck. It’s either donated or returned to Treasury.
4
Given all the money he inherited and was given by his father, Trump “not taking a paycheck” is an infinitesimal price to pay for him assuming the power of the US presidency, while hazing zero qualifications or even the basic appropriate temperament for the job.
7
Another attempt by the NYT to magnify the effect of the shutdown - and more fake news. Every government employee will eventually receive 100% of their pay. Thus, they are all getting a paid vacation. For those who save properly, this is time for a little rest and relaxation. For those that live paycheck to paycheck, maybe it's time to wake up.
6
@Robert, sure...it's nice to work for the government for the past 7 years and save a lot of money, like I did. I am by no means living paycheck to paycheck, I have an apartment in NYC, a family and had a steady job working for the US government. The keyword here is EVENTUALLY. A paid vacation means my PAID VACATION check comes to my direct deposit during my regular payroll cycle. This is not a paid vacation. This is by no means a paid vacation. This is a disgrace to the people who serve this country and work hard to keep certain checks and balances (aka the benefits that keep people like YOU safe and protected by law), in place. Please don't label anything as "fake news" if you have no idea what you're talking about. I'd like to see your response these systems we have in place for years, including the SSA and DHS fall apart eventually because the demise of our government, which is probable.
24
@Robert Another attempt by a mean-spirited Trump supporter to minimize the trauma being inflicted on federal employees and their families. ”Time to wake up”, indeed.
9
@Robert government contractors do not receive backpay during the shutdown.
7
I question the criteria used in that chart regarding the salaries of Federal workers in relation to the Private Sector.
I worked in the DOD for 32 years and my counter parts in the Private Sector in my same capacity were paid much higher in salary and had less overall stress on them.
In fact until I say this chart, most Federal Salaries have lagged behind the Private Sector jobs doing the same function or job, the one reason many people forgo working for less money than in the private sector is usually stability and dedication to public service, in addition to a pension.
I think this article is way misleading regarding the salary comparison, those facts are just plain wrong.
11
@Chico There are tradeoffs For being a private or public employee. Too many of these post generalize the sectors. The leave and sick time is better for goverment workers generally. The hightech workers have even a better PTO policy. I have been a contractor for 15 years. I'm on my 3rd company. My PTO accural basically starts over every 5-6 years. The government team I support are generally less educated and have less experience in the field. They are paid about the same or more.
1
Those of us who lost their jobs and pensions permanently, unlike the temporarily unemployed Government workers, wonder why there is so much concern now and there was so little when Obama was President.
5
@Robert Winchester
It's not unlike how the border "cages" and unaccompanied minors are only a problem now too.
1
@Robert Winchester Did Obama intentionally shut down the government to score political points with nutty right-wing radio hosts? I don’t remember that happening.
Trump claimed proud ownership of the shutdown, lay him own it.
“But what about when Barry did it?” wasn’t an effective argument for second graders, it’s amazing to see an adult try it.
6
@Robert Winchester
You should have applied for a federal job when you lost your private job and pension.
3
This is not a surprise!
Working for someone other than themselves puts one's future in another's hands.
4
Well, now we've got him for violating the 13th Amendment.
4
Trump also promised his followers that, if elected, everyone in the USA would have "beautiful" healthcare coverage that would cover every health problem and cost less. He promised everyone the moon and can't deliver on any of it, because he is a con man who doesn't know how to negotiate or "make a deal," and has a long history of reneging on his bloated promises. People who voted for Trump bought a pile of cheap, counterfeit goods. Amazingly, most are still backing him and still can't see that's he is a phony.
21
Just wait until September, when the funding for the other 75% of the government workforce lapses. That 75% includes, just for the one agency, 800,000 DOD employees. If this 'lapse in funding' is rectified in whatever way is required that does not include a mad, quite possibly criminal president* subverting the Constitution, then September will be just another month. If it isn't, if the president* succeeds in his objective to use the nation as his personal funding agent, the nation will be done. That's the choice and it's the choice right this minute. No more time.
7
@GWPDA
And meanwhile, his Russian friends can invade while the DOD is in chaos.
3
I'm sure that Republicans, particularly those in Congress, are happy about this "twofer". They get to blame the Democrats and many Federal workers will not be able to come back as they must find other work, and since they get those same benefits that they do, and many in the GOP don't think they deserve it.
I made the same decision to move from a much higher paying job in the private sector to teaching ($25,000 less annually), and although I would have more money in the bank, I now have a comfortable pension and Social Security, as long as the latter lasts until the GOP is finally successful at ending that too. I decided to give service to my country (I'm also a combat veteran). Many federal workers with graduate degrees, like Ms Bloomfield in this essay, have made the same decision. Kz's opinion here that they are on a "paid vacation", like so many Trump conservatives, have no clue and like to force that cluelessness on the rest of us, as their beloved President has on 800,000 Americans.
14
Taxes from the private sector fund the government jobs.
Should private sector workers pay higher taxes so that those they fund in the public sector have better pay, stability, and benefits than they have? Or should the private sector worker who helps pay the Federal worker fund benefits and salaries as good as but not superior to their own?
The article also points out how top performers can command high salaries, there are guaranteed increases in government.
"Even without the salaries that top performers can command in the corporate world, government workers who do well are entitled by law to regular pay increases, an increasingly rare guarantee elsewhere."
3
Lost in this discussion are the 4 million contract workers - many low paid - who are not now getting paid at all - have no pension - receive poor benefits - and will not get back pay.
And never mind the ripple effect through the economy..
All because of one man's whim. How have we sunk to this?Where are the leaders? Why do we have a Congress at all?
28
NYS Sen Schumer (my Senator) and Representative Pelosi (12th Congressional District of California) together have kept these federal workers from receiving their salaries.
They refuse to allocate funds to help complete a security barrier started by Democratic President Bill Clinton and continued by President Bush.
Residents of NY State, including federal employees, should pressure Schumer about voting to continue funding the federal government. Similarly for those who live in the 12 Congressional District in California to pressure Pelosi.
The real problem is that Schumer and Pelosi want Trump to approve of a law which gives amnesty to people who have been living here illegally. Obama, without the approval of Congress already gave these people the right to take jobs and university spots that Americans and others living here legally would fill.
When it comes to people living in the US illegally, neither Schumer nor Pelosi care about the rule of law. Obama could have passed legislation during 2008 to 2010 when Democrats controlled both Senate and the House, but he chose not too.
What Schumer and Pelosi don't understand that Americans including federal workers come before those who broke the law to live here illegally (and use K-12 education funding meant for Americans).
The reason for the federal employees are not getting their wages is because Schumer and Pelosi put people living here illegally ahead of Americans and others living here legally.
10
@David MD
It's really Speaker Pelosi, who is refusing to negotiate. She is a progressive ideologue more interested in opposing Trump than in compromising.
We should be grateful that Americans' first exposure to a House Democratic majority is she. No better way to expose the left's effect on the party than this.
7
@David MD Look at the polls - you are in the minority. Always have been. And it's shrinking
10
@David MD
No. The real problem, thanks to the rabid right-wing base, is that McConnell and Trump are pretending that the new divided government doesn't require them to compromise. Compromise spending bills, very similar to the Republican Senate's previous bills, have passed the House. McConnell is refusing to consider them.
13
All federal employees will receive back pay for the time off - POTUS introduced a bill to do so this week. To that end ... federal employees are essentially on a paid vacation in my opinion.
7
@kz
Don't know where you get your information, but "POTUS" does not introduce bills.
13
@kz
Many, many more of us running the government work for small businesses as contractors, and this fact makes the shutdown evermore so precarious.
I am thankful to have had vacation time saved up and haven't yet gone without pay, but that ran out yesterday.
I am seriously concerned about the business health of my employer, which just bought the business which held the government contract, and with it, assumed the liability for just under 50 employees. I am concerned that my employer will not be able to stay in business as they pay out all their employee's accrued vacation time all at the same time, while not having the assistance of the SBA which they rely on in the best of times.
6
@kz When you are on a "paid vacation", it means that you receive your paycheck while you are on vacation. It does not mean that you stay home from work for an indeterminate period of time, and maybe probably get paid back when you return.
3
Prior to taking a job with the Federal, I worked in an automobile factory for one of our country’s Big Three automotive manufactures. With union benefits ( I was a hourly wage earner), and a middle class wage rate, I earned a bachelors degree in accounting while working in the factory. When globalization was wreaking havoc on job stability at my factory, I left and took an accounting job with our Federal Government. For many years my Federal job has been stable with moderate income growth and career opportunities. But recent shutdowns and rally cries to “drain the swamp” are threats to job stability not unlike those experienced in the factory.
13
The irony of electing a man who time and time again stiffed his contractors and employees to the ONE elected office who controls when and if government employees are paid is almost too much to grasp.
31
@High school civics teacher
I think one problem is that the subject you teach is no longer mandatory in HS.
I campaigned for a progressive D congress candidate ( she won) talked to a lot of people.
There are so many in this country that do not understand government, cause and effect.
5
There is a way to show our immediate contempt for The Con Don's antics.
The third annual Women's March is this Saturday, January 19, and there are marches planned across America and around the world for people to join together and show The Con Don and his Robber Baron brethren what WE THE PEOPLE think. Any person may join the march - it's not for women only. Every government worker, educator and average American should take part with a sign that promotes the one thing they value most about living in OUR United States of America.
The link is below. Scroll to the place on the page for "Sister Marches" and find a march near you.
Please, Good People, let's show The Con Don that we hold him in contempt and support Speaker Pelosi and OUR democratic U.S. House/Congress.
NOW IS THE TIME FOR ALL GOOD PEOPLE TO COME TO THE AID OF OUR COUNTRY!
http://womensmarch.org
12
There is a new article in today's NY Times that says The Con Don is holding a "special meeting" at the Pentagon today. "Mr. Trump is expected to announce the administration’s plans to expand American missile defenses, with new investments in missile-defense technologies."
The Con Don, Putin, Netanyahu, Erdogan, Duerte, Assad and their International Mafia 0.01% Robber Baron/Radical religion brethren want WW3.
Take a sign to the march that says "NO WW3".
6
This seems to me to be another Trump campaign finance violation. This wall thing is just an extension of his Trump rallies.
If he wants money for a wall, he should pay for it himself.
"And who should pay for the wall?
"TRUMP should pay for the wall!
"Who is gonna pay for the wall?
"TRUMP is gonna pay for the wall!"
7
@Jbugko
And since he is known for stiffing the contractors he hires, he probably won't spend any of his 'hard earned' money anyway.
3
people in the private sector are living precarious lives of no pensions and reduced benefits, and, often, part-time hours with no stability and no opportunity to plan for family and personal time
republicans have fooled people living precarious lives into demanding that those with stability give up what they have, versus demanding decent wages and security for all
56
Please stop saying that federal workers retire with pensions. That system (Civil Service Retirement System) was phased out in the 1980s and only the oldest workers are still enrolled in it. The overwhelming majority of federal workers have Social Security and the opportunity to contribute to a 401k (called FERS).
10
Not true -- FERS includes a defined benefit pension, but worth about half as much as the old CSRS did.
10
@Sylvia
Not true. They get a defined benefit pension. I work with many 20 year Feds who think the same. They are unaware of the defined benefit pension.
5
@Sylvia
Untrue. I retired from Fed Govt. employment just two and a half years ago, and receive a pension.
3
“These are jobs in a highly unionized sector, where people see decent benefits, decent job security, decent wage growth over time.”
The majority of federal employees may belong to a "Union," but under current law they do not negotiate for wages, medical benefits, including the percentage of their contributions towards the various healthcare plans, or sick leave and vacation benefits. The aforementioned benefits are set by congress.
The exception is the USPS, who under the Postal Reorganization Act, are allowed to negotiate salary and health benefit contributions.
21
Lest we not forget Reagan and the air controllers union, PATCO. Workers in unions at the federal level will be fired if they strike.
10
@Jim Also, federal employees, unionized or not, are prohibited by law from going on strike.
Not much of a "union."
4
I recently had a choice of working for the feds or working for a private employer for less money. I'm soooooo glad I chose the private employer. This was just prior to the current insanity, and the instability of current government leadership was a big part of my decision.
8
Seems to me a perfect time to consider adjustments to the United States employment practices and compensation scales. If they are making so much more than the private sector, all in; maybe things need to be trimmed a bit.
6
@Truthbeknown Or maybe people in the private sector need to be paid better. Productivity has something like doubled since the 1970s but wages have not followed suit. Instead the difference has been captured by the (metaphorical) 1%.
32
@Truthbeknown if you read the article you would realize we aren’t paid more. It’s comparing apples and oranges. Low paid jobs have mostly been contracted out and if you added these wage grade salaries in the average salaries between private sector and government would be closer. The workforce is also different. 21% of us have advanced degrees compared with 8% in the private sector.
17
@Truthbeknown Because when you see another crab trying to climb out of the bucket you're trapped in, the best thing to do is grab him by the leg and pull him back down on top of you.
If you can't escape and succeed, then, by God, nobody else will get to either! Hurrah!
1
We need to put this in Perspective. everybody is talking about Federal Employees and how they are affected. But federal contractors are the real affected ones in this. Employees will receive back pay whenever the Govt. Opens again, essentially giving them a paid vacation if looked at in retrospect. Same happened in 2013. The contractors, whom the Govt. relies upon increasingly are losing money now and will lose it forever as often times they get paid only for the work they do. So they are the real victims here.
16
@Resident
Yes, federal contractors will suffer the most, but every contracted employee knows the risks going in, as well as the benefits of contractual work.
7
@Ed L. Contractors own businesses, some have contracts with federal agencies and some also have contracts with other businesses in the private sector. Their employees are all working in the private sector, however. As this article points out, actual federal jobs have remained flat for years. You should have said that anyone who takes a job in the federal government now should be aware of the risks.
3
@Resident Government shouldn't use contractors unless it absolutely has too. instead it should hire directly. I do feel horrible for them though
2
The premise of this article seems medieval. You get a feeling while reading this article that it is the citizenry duty to pay the beauracrat that lord over them. the welfare of the beauracrat is the reason we pay taxes. The author doesn't think that they are public servants and serve at the pleasure of people. Are they are having a hard time? yes . Should we be charitable? Yes. Should we open the government? No!
6
@jimmy
Govenment should reopen because it is needed. Air traffic cannot function without security and air-traffic controllers. Without secret service bodyguards, Trump is in danger of getting assassinated. These departments are functioning now only because their members are doing unpaid work.
The idea that government workers are parasiting off the country is a Republican fantasy. The real parasites are in the private sector, and until Trump ran for President he was the prime example.
3
You're joking right? They'll give up a job with unbeatable benefits, iron clad job security, and well above average pay because every once in a blue moon pay is belayed by a few days/weeks? I don't think so.
14
@Daphne Agree. If Steve Fosse, who earns 90K a year in Fargo, ND and has been working for 14 years, can't weather 1 month without pay, then he is grossly mismanaging his income. If Steve is really considering quitting because of the shutdown, then he doesn't understand the how life really works.
The people this article should be focusing on are folks like the TSA workers who make FAR less than Steve and STILL must work. I do feel sorry for them. At least Steve doesn't have to work when he's not getting paid.
6
"She has a pension, a union, several weeks of vacation and a paycheck that has nearly doubled in 14 years."
Wait a minute. This narrative contradicts the typical hard-luck tale of America's downtrodden government workers. You know, the one that depicts these "public servants" as barely making it in life as they sacrifice good pay and benefits for their noble cause. How many private workers get several weeks of vacation? A pension? A job for life?
17
In normal times, federal jobs have the benefit of stability. But contrary to the suggestion in “Government Shutdown Shakes Stability of Jobs That Are Often the Best Around,” most of these jobs are not especially high paying. In fact, the federal government is notorious for paying extremely low wages, though the gap between the government and private sectors has closed to some extent for some vocations. Even the health benefits and pensions, at one time superior to the private sector, are nothing close to what they were prior to 1987.
All of that said, these are not normal times. Federal workers are clearly hurting from the shutdown, which is now almost a month old. The administration is incredibly insensitive to their plight. Many live from paycheck to paycheck. Many are being ordered to work - the so-called “essential” employees - without pay. They are of course all essential in the sense that they all have a role and they all count as human beings. The essential / non-essential language is repugnant). But the damage wreaked by Trump’s needless shutdown is much broader than the 800,000 federal employees, and extends to contract employees and businesses that rely on the government. Then there are the parks, museums, national monuments, all shut down, not to mention the slowing of economic activity that results from these employees not having paychecks to spend.
The answer is simple. Stop playing politics on the backs of the American people and open the government.
26
@Jeffrey Zuckerman
I wonder how much Trump is being paid by taxpayers while he is not running the government, and how his salary compares to the "overpaid" workers that the commenters are complaining about.
3
@Charlesbalpha Well he's been donating the salary back to various government departments since he was elected. However his real income from being President comes from the bribes he has been accepting from foreigners via payments to his companies, and from the rent and fees that he charges the Secret Service to stay at his golf courses every time he goes to one.
1
Pelosi & every Dem needs to stop referring to DT's shutdown as an effort to keep a campaign promise and refer to it as half of a campaign promise! The other half was that American taxpayers would not be stuck w/ a multi-billion dollar bill. This simple and valid shift in their language would emphasize Trumps & GOP's fraudulent claim re "the promise"- It's HALF the promise!
11
@kfm
It was ALL the promise. Politicians are constantly saying "more border security..." and many have said "a solid wall"... and we generally ignore and dismiss it as typical political rhetoric and it gets no coverage...
But this guy said Mexico was going to pay for it... and THAT is the only reason it got any traction at all. Which makes your point all the more infuriating... it should be mentioned every time the wall is mentioned. Every single time.
8
@J
He never said why Mexico was going to pay for it. The implication was "I'm going to use American military power and bully them into it." But even Trump couldn't justify a war on Mexico to steal their money, though that's what his worshipers apparently expected him to do. So that's why he's in a fix now.
1
This is killing recruiting. When our last intern was asked if she was interested in staying with us she replied, "you can't afford me". We are competing with petrochemical and aerospace companies for scientists and engineers and until the next recession we will not be winning the talent competition.
10
It would be interesting to know how many states are like West Virginia in that they are significantly supported by federal taxes dollars.
4
@Kristine not 'federal taxes dollars' but 'people from other states'
5
Now you’ve done it. You pointed out in a very big way decent jobs with decent salaries and benefits, putting a great big bullseye on hundreds of thousands of people who are the exception in our sad, limp working-class. The cynic in me believes this was Trump’s plan all along: reduce the government to a shadow of its former self, while killing off a giant swath of the last decent, secure jobs available to regular people, paving the way for Republicans to point to their “high” salaries and “generous” benefits as yet more government “waste,” forgetting that these are the people who pull the gears that run a vital part of our country.
It’s like when people grumble about teacher salaries, or anyone for that matter who earns a half-way decent wage with benefits. “You’ve got it backwards,” is always my reply. Instead of knocking anyone’s salary DOWN, we should be working to bring everyone else’s UP. Everyone willing to work in this country – the richest on Earth – deserves a decent salary, routine raises and benefits for their efforts, especially at a time of record corporate profits. And the first Democratic candidate who makes that the centerpiece of their presidential campaign gets my vote. P.S. Trump’s always bragging about being a billionaire. It’s time for him to put his money where his mouth is – and to write some checks to help these families, and our economy, out. He’s got the dough, right?
47
@dawn
Economists say that modern technology created a lot of wealth in the private section, but it has all been used to inflate CEO salaries while ordinary workers have not benefited at all. The CEOs are the big parasites.
4
@dawn So are you? Are you working to change things so that every working American has at least the equivalent of federal benefits?
2
I'm old enough to remember Life before Public Worker Unions, at that time they earned less than Private sector workers, as it should be. Public Workers have jobs for life, can NEVER be fired and don't have the fears of folks in the private sector of layoffs and bankruptcy. When these Unions became Legal in 1959 these Unions and Elected Officials quickly formed an Incestuous relationship, the Unions would give MONEY and manpower to help elect the Folks that would give them higher pay and benefits.
I live in Wayne County Michigan, when times were good the County workers all had fixed Pension plans for their Retirement, But they should all have a 401K as well, we are good to our Workers. All employees could put $2,000 a year in their 401K, and the County would contribute $8,000, if you were in a Leadership position the County would give you a $10,000 match.
And did you know that MOST Public Workers with Pensions can BUY Pension Year Credits for a nominal Fee, these fees are small and the Payoffs are HUGE, ever hear of a Scheme like that at Private Employers???
8
@hank48188
"can NEVER be fired and don't have the fears of folks in the private sector of layoffs and bankruptcy."
I worked in Washing DC for over 20 years. It is difficult (not impossible) to fire a Federal employee. They can also be laid off (e.g., downsizing of a dept.). They do have more job security than most jobs, but it's not ironclad.
13
@hank48188
Speaking of public unions, I remember a Republican back in the 1960s saying they should not be permitted, because they could SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT. Amazing -- there was a time when Republicans believed that shutting down the government was an evil thing to do.
4
@Charlesbalpha, They were always against the Law because of the obvious conflict of Interest, FDR and George Meany, long-time President of the AFL-CIO when Unions were big, they were Dead set against Public Worker Unions, it's Legal Incest!
If it is generally true that government workers at most strata of employment would earn more in similar non-government work, there appears to be an error in the first graph -"Salaries for federal workers have outpaced those in the private sector."
In fact, these government jobs appear to be plums with rich benefits and highly competitive salaries. "Federal government jobs are few, compared with the private sector."
In fact, salaries of government workers are significantly higher allowing for educational attainment than those in the private sector."Average Earning for Salaried Employees."
These statistics beg the questions: given their situations, why would government workers leave for positions in private industry given the long term career stability and generous wages? And, why do the steady stream of travails of working in the private sector remain wrapped in sordid secrecy?
6
Nothing stopped... these guys are going to get paid in FULL when this mess is over...
In the private sector, you don’t work, you don’t get paid and your medical stops...
It should apply to them also!
10
Federal employees want to go back to work. They didn’t ask to stay at home. They should get their retro pay.
13
@Kevin Bitz
Most of "these guys" are actually working right now, without pay right now. And those who don't work - it is not their fault. Why the hostility? Are federal workers taking anything away from you?
17
@Kevin Bitz Why should it apply to them also? They're basically victims and you seem to be blaming them for the whole mess. In the private sector if you don't work it's because you choose not to work. Government workers had no say in this mess. I'm sure all of them would rather have their normal lives back. How would you like it if your boss told you to go home, you won't be getting a paycheck until further notice?
15
Having run a small private business for 40 years, I appreciate the article's clear recognition that gvt employees, particularly Fed, have it better than much of the private sector.
Agencies and gvt unions can plead their case to Congress or a Legislature, based on "they deserve", "it's only fair", "retaining good employees". The private sector generally can't get raises or benefits by saying that they're deserved; if there's only so much to go around, including to the owner, tough. And if the economy slumps, sales are off, or a trade war happens; the companies and their employees aren't merely unable to get raises, they may be losing hours or jobs as well.
In my interactions with agencies, I've seen laziness by some tolerated by others, failure to supervise blatant misbehavior, favoring and disfavoring select contractors - a lot more than would fit in these comments. When an agency cost-shares certain projects, they set the "approved rates" for contractors much lower than they earn for similar work. They go to the private sector because they can get the same done for less.
I'm no fan of a shutdown, especially over a wall that's just a political rallying stunt. But there's a part of me that feels "How do you like it when it happens to you once in a while?"
Best of luck to federal employees in getting back to work. And when they do, I hope they'll appreciate their jobs a little more, and be a bit more considerate in their interactions with the private sector.
15
@Mark Miller
Yes, there is a difference between owning a small business and office work, salary work, service work, etc. Pay for all such workers have a different way of determining their income than a business owner's income. This has nothing to do with Fed workers vs the private sector.
And I've seen plenty of laziness and incompetence in small businesses, practiced by owners and workers -- and sometimes they both get away with it. I've also seen incompetence in large businesses, especially by managers and CEOs. This has nothing to do with the suffering being felt by these Federal workers who are being furloughed due to others' actions.
13
@Mark Miller: great comment. I feel exactly the same way.
5
Federal employees DO appreciate their jobs. It pays the bills just like private sector jobs. As for customer service, both the private and public sector can do better. Have you gone to the supermarket, called the mortgage company or a utility company lately? Sometimes the staff act like they did you a favor by showing up to work that day.
4
1) The Times' story and headline seem to be in contradiction -- pay is good in Federal jobs, but people select the lower paid Federal jobs because it is more stable. So is the pay good or lower?
2) Many Federal workers, especially higher up ones often work very long hours and are highly skilled -- sacrificing for the public good. It is not cushy.
3) If the Dems gave in to Trump because he demands something and refuses to be reasonable about it, then it would encourage him to do that again. By resisting now, the Dems are saying that foolish policies will be resisted.
4) Dems are willing to negotiate, but only with a partner who is willing to negotiate. Trump is saying the wall is a non-negotiable item. So, what is there to negotiate other than a cave-in.
5) Most of the Fed workers who are hurt are in very low paying work. Many live in expensive cities.
6) It is shocking that some see stressed after missing only one paycheck. Says something about our economy.
11
@JustThinkin
4) Pelosi has declared the wall "immoral". Seems to me it's nonnegotiable with Dems too.
5
@Wine Country Dude
I wish we had more thoughtful politicians.
If Pelosi said that, then she is not doing her job right.
Many of these politicians need to spend more time studying the issues and thinking before speaking. But they instead spend time fund-raising for their next campaign. Somehow our political system and many voters makes it so the fund raising is more important. So we get half-baked policies and foolish rhetoric.
We need diplomatically sophisticated folks in the government to step up to the plate and help out here.
4
@JustThinkin
While we are talking about Federal workers, think about Trump's cabinet appointees who wanted cones of silence and sirens in their cars. Aren't they skewing the statistics?
1
The people that took government probably took those jobs with two things in mind
1st, it's a government job which is good forever and 2nd I'll be helping my country.
Then along comes his "majesty trump" and that all goes out the window.
The country needs a working government, it doesn't need "trump".
9
I know quite a few people with good jobs who live paycheck to paycheck. In each case, the reason is financial illiteracy and the inability to control wasteful or unnecessary spending.
11
@PaulN, same here. Some people seem to think that they 'need' a bedroom and bathroom for every family member, a bonus room for the kids, the large kitchen with an island and updated appliances, clothes beyond what anyone could even wear in a year...it's "keeping up the Joneses" taken to a new level.
And some of these folks are financially literate, they've just bought into having every bell and whistle. My best friend is an accountant and she tells me routinely how she sees high earners (hundreds of thousands) with few assets and teachers and other "more average" income workers with many.
4
@PaulN
I once had a boss ( private sector) who was probably paid very well, until he was fired for not showing up to work. Later I heard that he had assigned all his assets to his wife to defraud his creditors, and she divorced him and kept all of his money. That's not "financial illiteracy", that's Trump-style shenanigans.
1
If anyone has any delusions about who Trump’s shutdown backers are, just have a look at Limbaugh’s website - his remarkable conclusion is despite the shutdown it is business as usual in the USA and this is an incredible opportunity to illustrate how wasteful big government truly is.
There is the grain of truth in many of the arguments echoing off the shutdown, but the issues at hand are too complex to be resolved by this president and his cronies; they lack the ability to work with the other key parties to make efficient change happen, and their idea of an instrument of change is a guillotine.
Government workers should get paid to work, plain and simple. If you want to work toward a smaller, more efficient government, don’t leverage more wasteful spending to get your point across and don’t hire hacks to head every agency and department responsible for the potential to generate efficiencies.
We really have been sold a bill of goods by Trump and his kind as they cannot govern or manage with any finesse.
14
Many higher managerial civil service positions, such as in contracts procurement, are paid about a third of their private sector counterparts. They, CSs, also don’t get annual bonuses. There was a story that the average annual bonus ten years ago at Goldman Sacks was around $600,000. Most of the S&P 500 companies have full medical coverage, generous vacation and sick pay allowances, and some sort of pension scheme, although not defined benefit. It is not civil servants that are nightly filling up the fine dining establishments, or driving the big expensive cars, or living in high rise condos.
14
Federal workers will according to news reports be paid. Contract employees will not be paid. I realize the hardship of a delayed paycheck while also realizing this is not much of a hardship as for the furloughed contract employees who actually will suffer long term financially from this presidential government shutdown. It can be a fairness challenge for non government employees who foot the bill for the wages eventually paid to furloughed employees for not working.
4
@Ken Wood
"Federal workers will according to news reports be paid."
How many people would take a private-sector job where the boss says "I'll pay you a salary -- when I feel like it."
2
If people were as concerned about these unpaid government workers as they claim to be, they would be demanding that Speaker Pelosi actually negotiate with Trump. They cannot champion her refusal to negotiate and claim to care.
This is what happens when opposing Trumps becomes more important than anything else, or in this case, anyone else.
9
@AACNY
No. Actually, people that care should demand McConnell take the vote to re-open the government and then they can negotiate about border security, which may include some type of wall or fencing.
18
@J. Holoway
In their last meeting, President Trump asked Speaker Pelosi is she would reconsider her position if he opened the government. She said "No."
The one who refuses to compromise is Speaker Pelosi. Voting on bills that have zero chance of passing is not fooling anyone.
Speaker Pelosi could open the government tomorrow if she would provide funding.
7
@AACNY
Yes, indeed! Trump may have started this difficulty but increasingly Pelosi, Schumer and the Democrats are responsible for continuing it. Seems to me if they were less concerned with "besting" Trump in advance of 2020 and more concerned about ending this shut down they would negotiate.
Trump might get money for the wall and Democrats could get any number of their political priorities assured the President's signature.
6
This problem is easily fixed.
Fund the wall.
Done.
10
Stop with the melodrama. These workers will be paid. And if they can’t survive after missing one paycheck they need some financial schooling.
17
Some of these workers earn, as has been made very clear in the news recently, wages that are below the poverty level. No, that cannot be stretched. People need to be schooled in learning to appreciate that all work is valuable and honored with a living wage.
14
@M Exactly what I have been saying. It's not that these workers are paid peanuts. They could have put some money away for a rainy day.
11
@M The reality is that yes, they do need some financial schooling. These stories are showing that the majority of people in this country do not have the basic personal finance skills necessary to build savings and emergency funds. Something is broken here. A guy who lives in North Dakota and makes $90k a year should be able to survive without a paycheck for a little while.
7
People in government positions who have pensions are mostly retired or close to it. Federal employees younger than those with pensions, who are the vast majority of government workers, have 401K plans to which the government matches up to a small percentage.
4
@John, I'm betting the 401K matches from the Gov't dwarf what happens in the Private sector for 401K matches!
4
@hank48188
Do you have any source of information for this assertion?
2
The problem here is that federal budget is not approved as one budget but several. Thus the department of defense has a budget while other federal agencies do not. The next issue is the senate not being able to vote on a bill to reopen the government. Now this is where you have to follow the money because trump is okay with IRS processing taxes and make payments. Who benefits from that? Could it be large companies or everyday people? Bottom line get the government back open!
4
Think about this. That air traffic controller who is now working three jobs and 90 hours per week to feed his/her family, that tired, angry and anxious person is guiding your plane to safety.
When Trump flies Air Force One to Mar-A-Lago to play golf, every other airplane is rerouted away from him but when u or I fly, we're in the middle of it all.
No wonder Trump doesn't care about air traffic controller paychecks.
11
@Ronny J, Controllers average well over $100K a Year, more than what most folks earn
6
@hank48188 As a pilot, I can tell u that controllers deserve every penny. They keep me & my passengers safe in contrast to Trump who could care less.
2
I really wish some of the Senate Republicans would hold McConnell hostage and say we won't vote on the new Attorney General until you bring the bill to re-open the government to the floor for a vote. The Senate already approved that bill and it will easily pass. If Trump wants to veto it, they easily have the votes to over-ride it. If only there were a few Republicans in the Senate with some spine.
25
The Republicans want to starve government workers, just like they have the private sector labor force, all for the benefit of their donor class. Maybe now workers will start to realize that.
26
This administration is harming the Civil Service enormously due to the shutdown, pay freeze, hiring freeze, and cuts to the pension. You can compare this administration to a mega disaster in terms of the impact on those who work in the public sector.
11
@John Jones
Thanks Nancy for that
3
Excuse me, Anne, but Speaker Pelosi did not shut down the government.
13
@Debbie
But Speaker Pelosi can certainly open it up.
3
Over the years, as I've listened to Republicans and small government conservatives bloviate about reducing the size of government --- making it small enough to drown in a bathtub, one of them said --- I've often wondered where they thought the victims of all this down-sizing would go. It was as though these government workers were an invisible workforce that would just dissipate into thin air once their jobs were eliminated.
This shut down is showing just how far reaching the impact is, and would be, of dramatically reducing the government and cutting the workforce. As with private sector companies that have complex extended relationships, it's not just the paychecks in the pockets of the federal workers; it's every store and restaurant and day care provider where those workers spend those paychecks.
Perhaps the silver lining in all this will a renewed appreciation, not just of federal employees, but of all mid to low level employees in every sector, all of whom are tightly intertwined in the network of an economy that depends on their support. Perhaps we'll begin to understand that it's not the yachts and the mansions and the $100 million dollar CEO salaries and the stock portfolios and the excesses of the 1% that keep us afloat. And perhaps we'll begin to understand the importance of health care and education and job security and housing and day care and.....
12
@Jim I have a feeling the people who are always wanting to shrink the government would also complain that the government isn't running in a timely manner when there aren't enough employees to do the jobs needed.
6
I don't think TPTB have a real grasp on just how bad the ripple effect from this is going to be, and how quickly it could slide us into a major recession.
For instance, I make most of my money working from home doing online administrative work. I'm not guaranteed any jobs and have to claim each one separately. The past two weeks, the number of jobs has dropped AND the number of people competing for them has risen. Bottom line is that my income is down about 30% each day.
And that means, of course, that I have 30% less to spend, which means I'm putting 30% less into the economy. I was barely getting by anyway - the money I'm now not getting isn't money that I would have been able save, it's money I needed to spend, on everything from food to personal care products to shoes to replace the ones I recently wore out.
When most of the people in the country don't make enough to save anything significant, it doesn't take much at all to push the economy right over the edge.
12
their experiences taught me
I need to have emergency fund in my checking account
at least good for 3 months without any income
10
@Steven
So where are you going to get the money?
1
Trump is harming 800,000 federal workers plus federal contractors, not "protecting" them. His number one job is to do no harm to the American public, and not let others harm them.
Many will wind up with destroyed credit ratings, lose their apartment or rental home, maybe lose their house with a mortgage.
This is unbelievably cruel of Trump--and of all Republicans who haven't made sure to override McConnell and get the government open again!
11
@Jean There are more people affected than just the federal workers and the contractors. The federal government distributes money to the states for essential programs through the federal various offices and agencies. With those offices and agencies shut down, that money can't be distributed - or spent by the states. Essential programs on state levels will soon be affected - which affects everyone from state workers who run those federally funded programs to the recipients of those federal funds - school children, municipalities, veterans, etc. The list of people affected by the shutdown is about to mushroom exponentially. Trump and McConnell are about to throw the US into a HUGE economic downturn.
3
@Betsy
I live in Atlanta, and one of the drivers of its economy is the airport, one of the largest in the world. It depends on air controllers and TSA, both of which are affected by the shutdown. Of course Trump never thinks of things like that. He has his private government jet.
2
Of course Trump refuses to compromise, and McConnell refuses to allow a vote.Republicans have long promised to eliminate government. What better way to do so than create chaos for formerly stable, middle-class, unionized work? If the jobs are an economic ladder for women and people of color, even better! To pay their mortgage, many will leave the public sector, to find their posts eliminated. Republican intent? Disable and destroy all Democratic institutions
14
And Nancy has the perfect solution—boycotting the State of the Union address. That’ll do it.
8
@Edward
Speaker Pelosi's position, "Not One Dollar", may be music to her progressive supporters' ears, but it is damaging to the country. In refusing to compromise she signals that democrats are more interested in fighting Trump than passing legislation and opening the government.
They can blame Trump all they want, but rational people realize it takes two to negotiate, and, right now, it's Speaker Pelosi who refuses to do so.
7
@AACNY Refusing to compromise? Are you inherently or just selectively blind.? Surely you can see that the House Democrats have passed spending bills required to restart the government and it is Mitch McConnell not bringing them to a vote in the Senate.
You cannot claim the GOP is negotiating when they refuse to vote on or even discuss spending bills passed by the House.
To quote Trump, who you would like to spare the blame from, "I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck. … I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I’m not going to blame you for it.”
3
@AACNY
There is no negotiating to do. Trump said that he owned the shutdown.
1
Private companies lining up to hire 45 yrs old people with college degree(s) and 20 years experience for 6 figure salaries? That is fantasy land. Have they implemented large scale leading edge technologies? Improved productivity in big organizations to significantly cut staff, serve new markets and raise quality? Challenged legacy processes to implement a new vision for their entire department? Consistently produced improving product volumes at lower absolute cost? It is likely some Fed workers meet multiple criteria, but the overwhelming majority do not meet a single one. These people got into the best situation they will ever have and will hold it no matter what. People need to be more honest with themselves.
11
@Michael Blazin based on what evidence?
3
@Michael Blazin Have they cut Mitch McConnell's pension to match the average American worker? Does the average person have the same health care as the Oligarchs who run congress? Is there adequate oversight of gov spending so that OUR tax dollars aren't wasted or plundered into some legislator's pocket? Before you ask Joe Public to sacrifice, gut the waste and pork that exists at every level of gov. Remember that the first thing Trump did was reduce oversight staff. That wasn't an accident.
7
@Ronny J
Have they cut off the salaries for Trump, Pence, and their cabinet?
1
The President probably thinks this is good because he wants to shrink the size of the a Federal workforce and if this shutdown continues people may be forced to take other jobs to make end meet. I don’t think enough emphasis is on the millions of contractors who will not get back pay. They also have bills to pay.
I want the Democrats to support all workers, not just pushing for a 15 dollar minimum wage but also to support the shrinking middle class. Workers in the private sector have been squeezed for years with no real wage growth, loss of benefits like pensions and layoffs. Many people have been pushed into contracting jobs with no benefits and no agarantee of work, while companies abuse the H1B visa program and find ways to offshore US jobs. I ask that the NYT do more to cover this regularly and place it on the front page. We need to get the attention of lawmakers. I’m not worried about immigrants taking unskilled jobs. My concern is that millions of highly skilled older Americans are being pushed out of their jobs and can’t find comparable jobs. I hear crickets from Congress and the President on this.
9
@sr
Trump was quoted yesterday as saying that the people would forget the shutdown. I suspect that the contractors whose businesses were nearly ruined by the shutdown will remember the next time Presidential Election Day comes around.
1
Federal employees themselves did the analysis which found that federal employees are much better compensated than private sector employees at all education levels except PhD and professional doctorates. You can read their official government report yourself. Just do a search for: "Comparing the Compensation of Federal and Private-Sector Employees, 2011 to 2015"
5
@Errol, This is ALL the result of Public Worker Unions and the Incestuous relationship they formed with Elected Leaders, the Unions give MONEY and manpower at Election Time, and the elected Leaders reward them handsomely! It wasn't like this before 1959, public workers earned LESS THAN private workers as it should be.
@hank48188 Why should it be? Honest question. So a public school teacher should earn less than someone in the private sector? According to capitalism, yes. If I can sell more used cars and make lots of money that is how it goes. But, from my perspective I would rather have a public school teacher or childcare worker earn more because the survival of our society actually depends on the care and education of children--used cars, not so much.
1
@hank48188
What about millionaires who give money to Trump and McConnell to do their bidding?
1
The new headline is correct: government jobs are preferred by some despite lower wages, due to one specific form of stability: the government isn’t going to go out of business. Yes, your section might be outsourced or your position eliminated, but the whole enterprise isn’t going to pull a Toys R Us because people can’t buy a permit or get a subsidy on Amazon.
Now that the Republicans have normalized shutdowns as part of the budgeting process, the attraction of these lower paying jobs is lessened.
10
There may be at least one upside to this shutdown.
Republicans have been telling their base for years and years that taxes are evil, wasteful, and even confiscatory, so much so that it's unfair to subject poor rich people to a progressive tax code. They act like tax dollars go into a black hole or a deep pocket, never to benefit the taxpayer again. Perhaps this shutdown will help the "Tax and Spend" bemoaners realize that their tax dollars do not just disappear. They are circulated back into the economy, spent for goods and services, both directly by the agencies they support, and indirectly through the people who work for these agencies. And in the meantime, things get done that serve the greater good. The taxes we pay come back to us -- they don't just disappear.
15
There are some ways that tax dollars do disappear. If one were to build something of little or no use. After the construction workers go home there would be an edifice of lost resources and US lost productivity available for future tourists to gasp st in wonder all the wandering "Why?"
The shutdown has also had an adverse impact on the income of thousands of Washington lobbyists and many of the high end restaurants which they frequent. This is another reason why the shutdown must end as soon as possible.
8
@Common ground Lobbyists are not affected by the shutdown. It's the average, middle class American.
3
@Lauren I believe Common Ground was being sarcastic.
Government jobs indeed offer stability, good benefits, an optimal work environment and rising career opportunity. The partial shut down does not change any of the reasons for making Government jobs the best around and always better than no job. All government workers get back pay for the period of the partial shut down and shut downs have not lasted for more than 30 days and there is enough blame to go around for causing temporary inconvenience to non essential government workers. There will come a time when the president will have to declare a national emergency to end the partial shut down and secure the border. Is it now? That is debatable.
3
I’m a fed with 25 years of private sector experience. Here are some truths. Lower-educated feds are overpaid and have too much job security. Higher-educated feds are underpaid. Feds with the highest levels of responsibility are underpaid by many orders of magnitude, and ya get what ya pay for. Most feds get a small pension of 1% salary per year of service, supplemented by a 401K-like plan similar to large companies. Healthcare benefits are also comparable to those of large companies. Nothing special but good to have. Very little of federal expenditures goes to federal employee salaries. All the growth in federal spending has been with entitlements for the public (not necessarily a bad thing IMO), and with contracts with private sector companies.
17
@Kathleen J
"Lower-educated feds are overpaid and have too much job security."
Overpaid compared to what? The private sector, where people can work and still have to apply for federal food aid like SNAP? The private sector, where people sit, sleeves rolled up and ready to work, but their employer won't give them enough hours? Where there are no benefits and they are vulnerable to medical bankruptcy, despite the fact they are working? So any lower skilled worker with a better deal than that is "overpaid"? With attitudes like that, America will never be great again.
14
@Kathleen J A lot of federal workers take pride in their position as a public servant to the American people. That in itself is part of the reason why they stay. I agree with most of what you wrote, except the "ya get what ya pay for." That seems to imply that higher educated feds are not of the same caliber as higher educated private sector folks.
2
@Syliva , the statement you quote is a generalization. A minority of lower-educated feds are excellent and dedicated workers who deserve more compensation. A minority. Many though are overpaid in terms of what they actually do. I am very sympathetic to their counterparts in the private sector.
The shutdown is terribly affecting so many people. We just heard that at the community college near us, 90 students there aren't going to be able to attend for the semester that's just about to start because approval of their student loans is held up by the shutdown. What a tragedy.
Meanwhile, McConnell and Senate Republicans stick with their destructive party over people and country mantra, regardless of the significant damage that they and Trump are causing. In 2020, all Republicans -- the continuing enablers of Trump -- need to be tossed out of office.
10
Whatever happened to government 'Of The People, By The People, and For The People'? Our 'leaders', particularly Trump and McConnell, have severely neglected running our nation for the benefit of the greater good, resulting in the dysfunction and paralysis in place from the top down. We need leaders who can see the bigger picture, and act in the interest of 'The People', not only their base or party. That is the only real way out of this current morass.
11
There is simply no excuse for the shut down. Trump has been itching for one since the day he got into office, frequently blustering about a good shut down. If we had a labor movement in this country, unpaid federal workers would strike. We really have hit the ropes in this land. Workers willing to work without pay just to hang on to their job. Sounds like some third world country ruled by a dsspot.
12
If I were a furloughed worker, I would be camped outside of Mitch McConnell's door for having scuttled legislation that had a 2/3rds majority vote and was thus veto-proof.
Had that gone through, Trump would not have been able to have this temper tantrum and run his Trump rally through a shut-down.
And again, this is a campaign slogan of Trump's. IF he wants his wall, then HE should pay for it.
25
@Jbugko
That doesn't fly. Pelosi has stated that the wall is "immoral". Do you negotiate with immorality? Do you acquiesce in it simply because a fellow citizen--and your POTUS--offers to fund it?
1
NPR reports this morning that legal applicants for citizenship, scheduled for their application hearings, and having already waited 3 years, are being told that the hearing is 'cancelled due to the shutdown'; oh but wait: they're now at the end of the line, so they will have to wait 6 years, not 3. They can't leave the country because they'll have no visa to re-enter. Meanwhile, in the opposite direction, deportation hearings for any alien who's been convicted of a crime, takes the same 6 years, not 3.
1
Going forward every time a politician wants something but the opposing party doesn't want to give it, the federal workers will suffer.
Eventually no one will want that job.
And Republicans will have succeeded in destroying the government.
21
Obama built a wall, give Trump a portion of his and let's move on. In return, get something that you want - dreamers?
2
@Dude I'm with you on this. Use it to leverage something. I suggest offering:
Medicare for all
Universal background checks
Assault weapon ban
Mandatory waiting period
He's no Art of the Deal for sure. Just thinks he can bully his way through without compromise.
5
@Dude, The President expressly rejected that option. It's all the wall or nothing. That's where we are.
7
This shutdown is not about a wall. The shutdown is about control. DT is a control freak. It's all about, "My way or the the highway." He would hold the country hostage over someone forgetting the mustard on his Big Macs last week. It's all the same to him. He wants to be a king, not a president. And now Trump has gotten his wish, so he has no interest in changing anything. His threat about keeping the government shut down for "months or even years" if he does not get the money for his wall (i.e. everything he wants) is ample proof of that.
26
so, which is it America: do you support President Trump now more than ever because you respect his strong stance on border security, even though it is hurting you and your family... or, are you angry at being used as a pawn in his childish power game which is undermining our security and our economy, kicked to the curb for a "crisis" of the President's own concoction to distract from his personal legal troubles? will this shutdown debacle make you a stronger Republican supporter, or will the scales fall from your eyes as you realize you're being used?
12
I would argue that there are TOO MANY government jobs and this RIF of sorts is quite helpful to this country. I would also argue the only people on the face of this earth who would push back on this concept would be ardent Democrats and Progressives who love government to solve everything. Where am I wrong? Remember, no profanity.
4
@Patrick Turner There may well be too many government jobs, but the people who work those jobs applied and got them, they signed contracts, they show up to work and presumably do what their job description does they should. Now, the government is refusing to pay. There is a moral problem with this behavior regardless of whether you feel there are too many or too few goverrnment jobs.
If the Starbucks down the road from me decides, because of disputes in its board, to simply not pay the people working there who count on those paychecks to pay for childcare, mortgages, hospital bills, or whatever, the fact that there might be too many barristas there doesn't in an way diminish Starbucks' obligations.
Republicans claiming to be against big government should be particularly unwilling to allow this kind of bullying from the government simply because it's the government.
19
@Patrick Turner
When Clinton was president, the size of government, i.e., the number of government employees, actually went down. This was by design -- one of Al Gore's projects. So please don't blame Democrats and Progressives for big government. And please don't think Democrats and Progressives want government to "solve everything." We just want government to do it's job of serving the public good -- protecting the consumer from fraud, the worker from exploitation, and the environment from destruction. Funding vital research and development. Promoting public health and safety. Helping the poor, old and sick. All these things need doing in a civilized nation. There are plenty of countries where these things don't get done. Would you like to go live in one? Remember, no profanity.
10
Being a leader, especially the leader of arguably the most influential country on earth, is a position of unimaginable responsibility. And somehow we have turned the reins over to the GOP and it's leaders, which in turn have turned the government into a kakistocracy.
This cult and it's leaders do not care about the country or its people, only about wealth and power. And they have proven they will do just about anything to stay in power.
Shutting down the govt is a decision not to be taken lightly. Yet this administration has done it on a whim. On a tantrum by a mendacious, deeply unqualified, immature individual and his band of merry turncoats.
Some say #45 is to blame, while others say Mitch McConnell and the GOP. I say the citizens that continue to support and elect those who are not serving the democracy are ultimately to blame.
"Elections remind us not only of the rights but the responsibilities of citizenship in a democracy."
Robert Kennedy
13
Do we really want a federal workforce that has their jobs because they want to “avoid stress”? Sounds like we are selecting for an overcompensated cohort of paper pushers.
4
Who wouldn't want to avoid the stress of financial instability? Seems more like prudence than a character flaw.
36
I'm not a current or retired government employee, but my wife is. While the article explains the relative difference in average salary for government and private sector jobs, the first graph without the second graph is misleading. Higher salaries are primarily due to outsourcing lower paid jobs to contractors to save money. This started in the 1980s, but heavily accelerated during the Clinton years. The second chart of "level" number of federal employees doesn't take into account all that outsourcing as federal budgets grew over the years. Finally, the article misleads by not clarifying that since the mid-1980s, all federal pensions for new government workers are defined contribution, that is, 401k contributions, no different than the private sector. The last federal employees with defined benefit pensions are retired or nearly retired.
21
@Jim, Jim your first points are correct but you're completely wrong on the defined benefit pensions. Federal employees hired today still get defined benefit pensions. The defined benefit pensions for new employees are 1 percent for each year worked and current employees hired starting in 2014 pay 4.3 percent of salary for that defined benefit pension. If you work 35 years, you get 35 percent of average high 3 years. Not great but better than most.
7
It seems that this shutdown, that involves making tens of thousands of workers labor with no pay, is in the Trip family tradition. Donald Trump has a long history of hiring people, they do the work contracted for, and he stiffs them on their pay.
32
What irks me the most is that our elected officials are not suffering in the least for this shut down. Senators and representatives are still being paid. Trump and Pence are being paid. I understand that some of them are independently wealthy which means that no paycheck would be immaterial to their financial lives. Yet the cruelty inherent in Trump's attitude is stunning.
What sort of man decides that people who work aren't worth paying, or that it's worth idling them to make a point? What sort of person claims (often falsely) that there is support for a shutdown from the people most affected, people who live paycheck to paycheck and who do take pride in serving their country?
The last 40 years have not been kind to working people in America. We've seen our pay stagnate, the cost of living increase to the point where America as a whole is not an affordable place to live, and we've watched as the GOP, which, more than the Democrats, accedes to business interests that hurt societal interests because it wants power more than it wants a prosperous citizenry.
We are not living in a country that cares about the welfare of its citizens. We are pawns in a game being played by the Kochs, the Adelsons, the Mercers, and others whose sole interest is avoiding any and all taxes, dodging regulations for their businesses, and ruining lives. As the shut down continues we can expect to see more rather than less distress.
83
Dead on. Until elected officials feel the pain as immediately and substantively they will grandstand, bicker and talk about their values. Of course when it comes to the GOP vales doesn't cut it as the right word. Self interest seems closer.
They only "care" when their cushy, benefit rich jobs are at stake during elections.
Anyone who's surprised at the way Trump acts is naive or worse. A snake is a snake, always
10
@hen3ry
Maybe all the members of Congress should refuse their paychecks? Are their support personnel being paid??
A little solidarity would be nice.
BTW Congress can apparently solve the problem should the GOP be inclined. (Maybe they will be voted out?)
3
This was the plan all along. Think about it. The Republicans had total power for 2 years and didn't build their wall. Then, when the Democrats take the house mid-term, the wall is so important to the Republicans that they shut down the government. To not fund the government was the plan for the Republicans all along! Wake up you sleeping Americans. WE all should be outraged!! This is OUR government and it serves us well.
104
"Wages crawled up"
Wages went backwards against inflation.
19
We all should work for companies which could provide us with good benefits. We all should have strong unions and the right of going on strike if some lunatic government forced us to work without pay. Europeans enjoy all that (plus universal health care and free college tuition) Those europeans countries are not (by far) as reach as United States...What´s wrong with the picture here?
49
There is no way you could do this in Europe . Force anyone to work without being paid .
4
This is not the story of federal vs. nonfederal employment; it's the story of the vastly divergent outcomes that our labor market awards to different levels of education. The federal government just blunts the extremes some: highly educated and technical work gets paid less than in the private sector, and less technical (but still important!) work gets paida bit more
So yes, the TSA agent who keeps your plane from blowing up is taking home a princely starting salary of $32k instead of the $25k that private airport screeners might have paid her. Do people really think that's a bad thing? (Do people remember why we got rid of private airport security? Want to go back?)
Among the majority of the federal work force, who do higher-end professional and technical work, our pay is less than what the private sector pays. News flash: My highly educated friends' private employers give them even more generous benefits, including bonuses large enough to be a down payment on most houses and, yes, pensions.
Highly technical and highly important work is going to pay more than "average." But it is still paid less in governement than comparable work in the private sector. The country gets that labor at a discount not because federal employees are suckers, but because most of us genuinely value serving our country, and because the intangible benefit of job stability is worth something.
The private sector's treatment of the middle class as a giant pool of temps is the real problem.
92
@Anonymous
I agree with your post. It’s not a bed of roses in the private sector. The bonuses in the private sector are not as high as you think, yes for those at the top of the food chain they’re high, but for the vast majority (mostly female by the way) they’re not. With the trend to prop up earnings for shareholders companies have had endless reorganization’s (layoffs) and between off shoring of jobs to countries like India and The H1B visa program jobs that should have gone to Americans do not. Most of the workers in my department lost their jobs a few years ago and were hired back as contractors (temps) with no benefits, no paid time off or holidays or vacations. Thank you private sector. The company hired H1B visa recipients to replace those that didn’t come back as temps or hired workers in India.
10
@Anonymous My mother is the women who was interviewed in this article, and I can tell you one of the aspects she enjoys the most about her job and is most proud of is serving the American people.
22
It can't happen here. Really? Enforced leave and income deprivation come in many forms. This Trump/Congress debacle is one. US companies including Aluminium, rubber, tobacco, chemical and others have furthered their interests at others' expense for as long as there has been a USA. What's happening to white america is bringing them a little taste of life for native america and black america. They are now collateral damage. The chickens were bound to come home. Trump has hastened it. You all voted for him.
11
Very unfortunate and sad. Wonder how many voted for Trump and the Republicans who really just hate government and hate them. Also - I suppose now they know how millions of Americans with no job security, in the so called fantastic "gig" economy feel, living paycheck to paycheck thanks to the Republican Party's 40 year war on unions and the middle class. Think about it in 2020.
33
Sorry no sympathy. Must be nice to work for a company that doesn't care about the bottom line, shareholders, expenses. Maybe we will find out how many are truly necessary.
9
@MiguelM Can you give me an example of who is not necessary? It's not a company, it's the government. They are not the same which means they are not run the same. If you truly believe the workers who serve the American people are unnecessary, I assume you will refrain from utilizing any of the services they provide.
5
Well, then, you’ll want to avoid those job ads from Trump Enterprises, won’t you?
4
@MiguelM
Sour grapes. The way the US government treats employees (shutdown notwithstanding) should be a model for how other employees in the US economy get treated. Private sector employees used to have security.. Why do so many people now insist that workers in the US should be dragged down to the lowest level? That if a gov't employee is doing better than someone in the private sector, than the problem is the gov't and not the private sector. Jeff Bezos has billions and his lowest paid employees can barely scrape by. The money is there is treat people better. It's sick that we don't.
5
Geez, I want one of those federal jobs. What rational person wouldn’t?
In the 21st century, the smart ones get a publicly-funded paycheck,
5
Skippy,
You are correct to want "one of those jobs". These committed and sincere workers work hard to bring alive the programs and functions that help make our democracy and way of life possible. However, it is a sad state of affairs when many private sector jobs pay less, offering fewer benefits and respect for their workers - especially in light of the December 2017 Corporate & Rich Welfare Tax Law. Your jealousy energy would be better spent in demanding respect and benefits for your hard work.
14
It has always been the reactionary right's goal to shrink government so that it could be drowned in a bathtub. Trump may very well decide that we've survived x days without these workers and fire them. I would not put it past him.
12
The government's job isn't to supply work at above-market compensation. It is to do the people's business.
If you're making above-market compensation, you must have a rainy day fund. Unless of course you have the government mindset and spend more than you take in.
6
Charles,
Or too many Americans are taken advantage by below market jobs in the good work they do. These Americans deserve pay and respect that is currently not possible when the leaders, owners, or shareholders in that company or industry take far more than they ought to have.
4
I wonder how many times this sort of article would have to tell you that government employees generally make BELOW market wages before you paid any attention to what it said?
5
What's with all of the judgmental comments? There are a lot of people here who think they know everything about Federal employees, claim to know someone, or maybe someone who knows someone, or maybe they overheard a conversation in the elevator that makes them an expert. My personal favorites are the ones who live near Federal employees, making them an authority on the subject. Really??
What makes a Federal employee any less deserving of a decent paycheck and benefits than anyone else?
It's not Us and Them.
There are real people out there who are suffering, and wondering if they'll make it through this. I'm not rich, and I'm not poor either, but I would definitely be terrified and suffering if I had to go more than a month without a paycheck, with no end in sight.
114
@Chrisie Thank you for your heartfelt comment. I am so disturbed by the anti-government trolling in this set of comments. Stereotyping. Perhaps jealousy? I dunno! So sad that there is another divide being exploited (public sector vs private sector employment and work) in our country.
17
@Chrisie At least they are being offered interest-free loans, unemployment, and guaranteed pay. That's a huge difference compared to most who are laid off. Nowhere else do you have guaranteed back pay for sitting around. My partner was laid off last year from the private sector and went four months without work and no back pay.
3
@August They keep saying there are zero interest loans, but, in my experience, I haven't been able to find any nor do I know anyone who has been able to find one. I don't think it's fair to compare the two situations. They're both horrible to be in. Federal workers may be getting back pay, but a lot are also required to work while still incurring the associated costs like fuel, childcare, etc, but no pay in sight. They're also not allowed to get another job without going through an application process to be approved for working an outside job. Although it may take several weeks to process, luckily, there are some states where they are eligible to apply for unemployment benefits, there are also other states where they are not eligible. The shutdown is also affecting many in the private sector. I know in my area there were quite a few people I heard about who were laid off by the property management company they worked for because they weren't getting paid rent from the government around an Air Force base.
7
I just cannot understand the cruelty behind the president's approach. How does being cruel to the working women and men of this country help in any way? It boggles the mind.
31
Life is a marathon not a sprint. In my opinion a Federal job is preferable to a private sector job in the cut throat, soulless culture of today. Age discrimination, private equity buyouts, no pensions, non matching 401's....who wants to deal with that? I feel sorry for the Federal employees forced to work without pay but they will be paid in full. To the furloughed employees forced to stay home, enjoy the time off with pay. Go with the flow and don't fight it. The media is doing Federal employees no favors with the profiles of individual employees who can't afford a cup of coffee. Many Federal employees are conservative people who took the safe choices in life, saved and lived conservatively. Do that for 35 years and the outcome is usually good.
10
@Jack
Hard to go with the flow when you make 28K a year and no savings. Your bills are still due. Credit card debt becomes real and the gov't isn't paying the interest. What happens when your landlord can't wait for payment either? This is no vacation for thousands.
Nor is it really advisable to trust Trump on teh backpay. A bird in hand.
1
For those in the ever growing group of "essential" personnel, when does the 13th Amendment kick in?
11
@tbs
The 13th Amendment? There is no slavery or involuntary servitude. Every federal worker has the absolute right to quit, even without giving any notice. But do you see them quitting over this phony shutdown? No, you don't. The non-working ones especially continue their privileged employment as all their time non working is free extra paid vacation on top of the 13-26 work days per year of paid vacation they already get.
2
When will folks place the blame for this mess on the shoulders of those who deserve the blame - the entirely ineffective GOP?
31
What would be interesting would be analytics of working age people in the DC area and compare it to the rest of the nation?
If what is suspected is true, that Federal workers have an easy gig, it should show up in mall trips, extra-long lunches (compare average time at restaurant vs. other places), more activity at Home Depot, etc. between 9 to 3 PM than other parts of the country. Test a few working days of the week.
With all the data out there, it would be an interesting data mining exercise.
4
@Mehul Shah
Most federal employees don't work anywhere near Washington, DC.
They work all across the country, because that's where we keep the federal prisons, hospitals for veterans, airport screening lanes, food processing plants that need inspection, and crimes that need prosecution. When your employer does not pay you minimum wage, or pays you less because you're a woman or older, or when you need to apply for Social Security... odds are there are federal employees in your state who handle that work.
10
Your chart header, "Salaries for federal workers have outpaced those in the private sector" gets it wrong. How's about "Salaries for those in the private sector have not kept pace with those in the public sector." Even so, this is dependent on experience levels, degree level, and job type, and should be presented as such (as you do further down to a degree). Later in the article you mention that all get a pension. This is a distortion. There is a small FERS pension (nothing you could retire on),and since the 1980's, fed employees have 401(k) style retirement plans like many others in private sector jobs.
24
Federal employment is not a welfare program. The taxpayers deserve a fair shake. Many of these people can be replaced by computers, but they're kept on because of politics. A private employer would have let them go or not given them pay increases. GM is laying off thousands of workers. Those people are suffering too. The Times should profile them instead.
9
Is GM forcing workers to build cars without pay?
12
No one is being “forced” to work without pay. Anyone can always quit their federal job and go work in the private sector.
Of course, almost no one is. Why do you think that might be?
6
Essential Lesson: Donald Trump eventually throws his supporters under the bus.
This is universally true. The only people immune are Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump-Kushner. Everyone else is going to be sacrificed.
Trump supporters are learning this lesson now. Those that continue support Emperor Donald out of loyalty will get NOTHING from him except contempt.
Trump cares for no one except himself
16
The Trump shutdown is primarily about the standoff over an absurd and dubiously effective border wall. However, in zooming out a bit, this shutdown is right in line with the Republican views about our government they've held since 1980. After all, it's the Republican party which views our government as an enemy, and has been doing everything it can for decades to sabotage and financially overburden the working of our government. Remember, it's Republicans who want to "shrink our government to the point where it can be drowned in a bathtub" and then conveniently privatize what remains.
Republicans don't care about the pain federal workers are going through during their shutdown. That's not a bug, it's a feature.
33
I was a federal employee (air traffic controller at Cleveland ARTCC). It is not true that anyone is being forced to work without pay. No one, absolutely no one, is forced to work. If they don't like the terms of their employment, each and every one of them has the absolute right to quit without even giving any advance notice.
All that is happening is that about 1/2 the employees will be paid a few weeks later than they normally are. The other half are even better off. They receive free extra paid vacation for not working. That free extra paid vacation will be paid a few weeks later than would be the case if they were normally working.
Statistical report authored by federal employees shows that for all education levels except PhD and professional doctorates, federal workers receive higher cash salaries than similar private sector workers, and they receive much higher benefits and retirement pensions than similar private sector workers. In addition, federal workers have virtually guaranteed lifetime employment (until they retire at an early age).
The only people getting a raw deal from this phony half shutdown are the taxpayers and the public.
Responsible people always keep 2 or 3 months of salary in case of unexpected needs or loss of income. As well paid as are federal workers, few of them have any reasonable excuse for failing to do so.
10
@Errol "Responsible people always keep 2 or 3 months of salary in case of unexpected needs or loss of income. As well paid as are federal workers, few of them have any reasonable excuse for failing to do so". Well, aren't you Mr/Ms/Mrs Perfect.
11
@CLW
Being responsible to keep a few months salary in reserve is not being "perfect". It is being reasonable, responsible, and prudent. Apparently, you think yet another entitlement for federal workers is that they should receive sympathy and special benefits when they act unreasonably, irresponsibly, and imprudently.
3
@errol
You are incorrect. With the exception of those with no greater than high school educations, federal employees are paid less than their private sector counterparts. Many make the cost benefit judgement that a reasonable sense of security is preferable to larger salaries. But almost every person I know who is a federal employee decided the work is important and wished to serve.
BTW, I have spent almost exactly the same time in government as I did the private sector. At no time did I earn more in the government. The same goes for my team who all have advanced degrees.
3
I am not sure who gets these pensions. I have paid into mine myself in a 401K as most of us these past 15years. Also we have not gotten any substantial raise since 2008.
10
Now the division has spread to private versus public sector. Trump is effectively deconstructing our country.
United We Stand. Divided We Fall.
88
My husband once had to institute furloughs. He was the first to take it along with his top management. It’s called leadership.
5
Most federal employees I know, telework 3-4 times a week. Are busy gardening with their iPhones nearby to say they are "working." There are plenty of 6 figured federal employees who do nothing all day, are thrilled to have extra paid vacation and complain about when they actually have to go into the office and work a full day (which is usually only 6 hours). I have very little sympathy for most federal employees. They are welfare recipients who can't get fired, are usually shuffled off to the corner.
9
@August
There are indeed federal employees such as those you describe. They are a small minority.
In my nearly 4 decades of service, I did not telework a single day, and often had to come in on Saturdays. I never regarded myself as a welfare recipient. Quite the contrary.
45
@August. You must be thinking of Donald Trump and his cabinet, as well as his family members on the federal payroll.
There are four in my immediate family who are employed by or work with the federal government. Two are NASA employees, who go to their workplace five days per week. One is a federal contractor who fixes Apple products on site. One is an engineer who works with the FCC. None of them spend their weekdays gardening.
28
@Barb Campbell no, I'm thinking of a few friends who work for Dept of Interior, SEC, FDA. One at the Dept of Interior was called back to work and was upset. Most of these people are Trump supporters as well which makes it even funnier.
2
I recently retired from the USG following a lengthy career in the national security field. I am in the old (CSRS) pension system; in short, I can work, or not work, and still make more or less the same income. I get cost of living adjustments and have premium healthcare. I am only 59 (I started young).
CSRS was phased out in 1984 and not longer exists. It was expensive for the government to maintain. But that was because the government once valued its employees.
I am not at all sure that that is the case any longer. The new retirement system -- FERS -- is portable. People entering USG service are no longer signing up for the duration.
I for one am glad that I joined when I did. My mentors were former members of the OSS. I was trained in intelligence tradecraft by the best. We had no computers when I signed up, no email, no internet. Those were the good old days, when intellect really counted.
Mass layoffs, work without pay... its truly the end of an era.
29
Thank you for clarifying this. I don’t know where this talk of great benefits comes from. Our health insurance is basically the same as in the private sector (I have worked in both). We pay the entire cost of our dental and vision plans. We have tiny pensions that are not enough to live on and are expected to retire on our Thrift Savings Plan, the equivalent of a 401k. We pay into Social Security like everyone else. And due to ethics rules, we get no in-office perks like free coffee. I’m not complaining, but I am baffled by comments suggesting that we all work 5 hours a day and retire at age 50 with full salary. I’ve been in government over a decade and have no idea what they are talking about.
27
@Max
You pension should include 1% of your salary for each year that you have worked for the agency in question (i.e., 30 years of service, 30% of your salary). Social security and FERS are the second and third "legs" of your retirement. To make this work, you have to be in for the long haul.
3
@Max Articles like this one repeating the work pension over and over give people the idea federal workers are getting some kind of free ride. We're paying into all three prongs of our retirement just like everyone else. The days of receiving your full salary at retirement have been gone for almost 40 years, but with reporting like this, the general public would never know it.
1
Let’s hope the politicians who are intransigent in their positions (I’m talking about the Chuck Schumer’s, whom I previously respected, and who previously voted for a wall) receive the karma they now deserve. For every politician who invokes the plight of the unpaid Federal worker in this political grandstanding, what goes around eventually comes around. For every politician who lies and curses (especially in front of their children) you model the antithesis of what humanity should be striving to achieve.
In the machismo, self-serving world of American politics there is no wisdom, there is no true leadership, there is no respect for what our founding fathers (as imperfect as they were) risked their lives for when they signed the Declaration of Independence. The United States has fallen by the wayside by incredibly small-minded politician’s.
3
Why do people resent the security of federal jobs? Secure employment used to be a hallmark of American companies, as well, until Milton Friedman came along and convinced business owners that they had no obligation to their employees, and that workers were merely a drain on shareholder profits. I would propose that Friedman's assumption is what needs to be questioned. Workers in the private sector need to demand the kind of job security that American companies used to provide, until their managers became obsessed with paying CEOs 325 times what the average worker earns, pouring high dividends into investors' pockets, giving themselves huge golden parachutes, sending all of their kids to private schools, buying multiple houses for themselves, and maintaining private jets for the use of a privileged few. Why average Americans put up with the behavior of the business executive class is a mystery. We should be demanding the same benefits from private employers that public employees get, not trying to cut back to please private sector greedheads who wouldn't know how to live on a budget if they were forced to.
192
@Allison
I suppose some of us resent — not sure that is the right word — the ‘stability’ of a government job because many of us have had ineffective, inefficient, and uncaring interactions with government employees at many areas from the IRS to the DMV to the traffic courts.
15
@Allison
I agree with EGD...I have never had an interaction with a Federal worker that was nothing short of a nightmare, all the while my tax dollars are keeping Federal employees comfortably secure, again resentment may not be the right word to define the attitude. I do agree with you @Allison with regard to American workers demanding more from private sector employers. Why is this Countries citizens not pouring into the streets to protest so many wrongs! However, those "greedheads" have been given carte blanche to run their business as they see fit, usually with heavy cash flowing to the other group of federal workers we all pay...politicians!
6
@EGD. That is anecdotal and a stereotype. This only contributes to a false narrative about government employees. It's like jokes about horrible mothers-in-law or "failing schools" that gets repeated, repeated, repeated. For every "ineffective, inefficient, and uncaring" interaction you claim to have had, many of us have had effective, efficient, caring ones. So who is right, here?
36
You are an entry level GS not making much money.
Affordable daycare for a single parent is difficult to find.
Whoops, you have been bumped by someone else able to provide a steady cash flow to a provider who is also living on the edge.
Now what will you do?
3
Do you seriously think that higher salary and better benefits for Federal employees and n many places state employees as well is not a major irritant to say the least- in our current political mess? bviously the answer is higher pay and better benefits in the private sector- and there are a lot of reasons why getting those is a problem like Nixon-breaking and gobalsaion.
But still the public sector pension issue is a massive problem here in PA and don’t think that is not a major vmotvation for the Trump voters.
I am Blue, btw, but there is no point in burying our heads in the sand.
1
You failed to mention the additional benefit of low-interest credit and mortgage rates. In addition to these low rates state and federal employees often quality, through their exclusive credit unions, for a zero downpayment on their housing purchases. Those living in a rural, or underemployed community find it very difficult to compete for services or housing with these people.
Unfortunately the security they enjoy often manifests as smugness and entitlement. These qualities have not endeared them to many people and call into question their true value.
5
This is one positive aspect of the shutdown, to know down the idea of the government job-for-life. I am a programmer and no one I know who is creative and ambitious would work for who is often called the employer of last resort. But plenty of them work on government contracts, because they go on for ever and you don't need to do anything. I worked at the IRS twice on computer projects. I think in 2 years I might have done 2 weeks of actual work. We had large meeting where 50 people or more showed up, most oof those people only went to meetings. The project manager actually fell asleep at these things. And I sat next to a guy who literally did meditation all day. He was a Hindu so he really understood how to do that. And the rules the government put in place were the opposite of what other computer operations did.
5
Being a career public employee takes dedication, period. The "stability" comes at a price that isn't quantifiable, the "cost" is the subtle negative impact over years to one's psyche from tge constant villification from the public to ttg e politicization of service.
The average citizen hasn't a clue as to what it takes to provide the "world" we live in - provided with fewer public employes providing more services, to more people. I'm grateful and appreciative, put Federal employees and contractors back to work WITH PAY, NOW!
20
40% of Federal employees are highly educated, professional positions that must be competitive for skillsets and national security positions. These positions must attract and retain the best individuals who could easily get more $$ in the private sector. However at the low end of Federal job workforce, are too highly paid vs the private sector - for example pension and low cost or free health care that they receive is unfair to non Federal taxpayers who don't receive these type benefits. In fact the private sector middle class workforce had been decimated during the financial crises of 2008-9 and technology has played a huge disruptive role in that too. Thus much of the Federal employees in low level jobs should fear that they will be outsourced and downsized with the implementation of technology. Tax payers should not foot the bill for gold plated benefits and pay that are non-competitive with the private sector.
3
Anyone who voted for Trump deserves to be thrown out of their home to live in a card board box with their children begging, preferably on Pennsylvania Ave.
The rest of the don't deserve this,
But thanks to your Trump voters, we'll be there with you.
9
I am frankly amazed to read as many accounts as I have over the past few weeks of U.S. federal employees living paycheque to paycheque; what used to be the First World gold standard regarding a reliable and predictable career path has fallen way short for many Americans. Could it be that medical bills for non-insured family members and pulling down what should be a decent standard of living?
My heart is with these workers. This is a very sad, indeed.
10
Its this kind of thing that will break our government. When smart hardworking people, actually DOING the work start leaving that's when things start to fall apart in any organization. I still believe that the damage done by this and past shutdowns can be reversed, and that nothing is "unfix-able" when it comes to government but this unnecessary pain for people who just want to do their job is not helping us get anywhere.
135
@Jim
Hardly any of them are going to leave on their own, because they won't make more money in the private sector for doing the same work. A salaried worker in the private sector can put in 60 hours a week or more to earn a six-figure salary. The government won’t make these people work that hard and they know it. I think many of them are terrified at the prospect of working for a private employer. The lack of structure and the fact that they will be viewed as an expense rather than an asset to the company can be terrifying indeed.
3
Want to help "fix" it. Ensure that Mitch McCONnell isn't re-elected. That's a good start.
Hopefully either Mueller and/or voters in 2020 will give trump the boot he deserves. IF he doesn't have to resign first.
1
@Jim You're in the perfect place to encourage all of your friends and neighbors to campaign to dump McConnell in 2020. That would be a good thing for a whole bunch of reasons.
A friend of mine was furloughed from her state job when our legislature couldn't pass a budget and we had a state shutdown. This has happened a twice over the years she's worked there. She was never paid for those days off. The stability used to be a drawing card to a job in government, but isn't anymore. When an employer is exempt from the labor laws that govern every other employer and can just choose to not pay workers with no repercussions, how is that a good job?
16
This just President Trump's way of showing how he is going to make America great again.
4
The government Trumpdown has become a political purge. There will now be a government loyalty litmus test for employees and agencies in order to get their jobs back. Those not conforming will be informed on and they will be pushed out of their jobs.
The days of knocking on a government agency door, seeing that someone came to look through the peep hole but not answer the door, and when they open the door it everyone in the office is standing by their office door looking down the hall at who actually knocked. those days are over and they're never coming back.
Corporate interests have deeply subverted political power in this nation. Their interest is in owning everything, even the government and the services it provides. They love to portray this veneer of respectability and normality, but they'll stop at nothing to get what they want and it's up to the government, and you and me to stop them.
5
Grover Norquist would be proud of the Republicans doing his bidding. Drown the government in a bathtub by attacking the "elite" government employees, deflecting attention away from the piracy by the real elite (top 0.1 %).
4
One sure way to end the shutdown quicker is to stop paying Congressional members and their staffs.
5
Until we have universal health care and universal retirement pensions, the benefits should be demanded as the price of doing business. "Conservatives" complain that illegal immigration drives down wages, yet they simultaneously fight for corporations to make working conditions parallel to those that undocumented workers must accept. Stop accepting that a middle class life with steady work, security and a future for your children is a "thing of the past."
10
The lessons of this article will be lost on much of the right. It’s already evident in some of the comments here & surely so on conservative media. In this reading, the fact that these workers are forced to make difficult financial choices is not the result of the systematic undercutting of the middle class—whose last bastion is the federal government—but the result of their poor financial choices. Having made these poor choices, the argument continues, federal workers don’t deserve benefits anyways. For added resentment there might be an aside that since private sector workers don’t have unions or pensions, nobody should either—a statement almost breathtaking in its simultaneous lack of imagination and compassion.
What is more, for the right, the shutdown and furlough of hundreds of thousands of “non-essential” workers is evidence not for the callousness of this government, but for the irrelevancy and “non-essential purpose” of government all together. The shutdown will not be evidence for the brokenness of this government but the brokenness of all governments—further driving our country’s seemingly inexhaustible march towards complete privatization and reckless deregulation.
12
Trump just closed the federal government. He’ll bring back two types of employees: those that collect money and those that send money to him and his loyalists. It will take the 50 states awhile to realize that he has destroyed the republic and that the federal government, including Trump and his supportive Senate are completely unnecessary and to quit allowing their citizens to pay their taxes to the IRS. Putin won. We are now 50 separate countries. Lindsay Graham can be the first President of SC and his populace can learn just how despicable his conservatism is.
9
I am amazed at the resentment against federal workers during this shakedown. They are essential to keeping the country safe, fed, and housed. The paycheck to paycheck people are the ones making $28,000 a year at TSA. Canadians have more sympathy for American workers. They are buying lunches for American air traffic controllers. I’m certain none of the complainers would work for no pay. Trump is cunning - because they are working they can’t get unemployment. Shame on all of you.
101
@Barbarra And shame on Mitch McConnell who could, by himself, end the callous treatment of our fellow citizens by allowing votes in the Senate.
6
The federal government jobs are the best around because American citizens in the private sector (due to "free trade" agreements like NAFTA and China's entrance to the WTO that this newspaper has promoted for 30 years) have been put into direct competition with people working in semi-slave like conditions . Businesses of course moved the jobs to where the costs were least.
10
Trump's marching orders from Putin are to hurt the USA in every possible way. It fits with the Republican party antipathy to to the US government Just add this to the list.
22
I'm sorry federal workers are not being paid; but it doesn't happen often.
Mr. Fosse is employed as an IRS agent earning $90,000 in North Dakota. Since he started working for the federal government in 2004, we've had only 3 shutdowns - one in 2013 for 16 days, one in 2018 for 3 days, and the current shutdown.
The House passed a funding bill in Dec. - Sen Schumer filibustered the bill, blocking passage in the Senate. We would not have had a government shutdown, had he not filibustered, the bill had passed with a majority in the House, and would have passed with a majority in the Senate. He opted to play politics, delay the passage and wait for Democrats to take control of the House.
Okay, that's where we are now. Trump and Schumer(Pelosi) facing off like two toddlers.....with federal workers in the middle.
It truly is a swamp...Trump's not draining it, he's filling it with more alligators.
3
After a generally fair comment why did you not also point out that Democrats are also filling the swamp with more alligators? It takes two to tango and I currently see no dancing.
7
We voted for these people. They have taken our great democracy and held it hostage. Immovable sides, immovable positions hurt The People. Congress, Democratic or Republican majority, remains a joke.
2
Sympathy? Nope.
As the headline says, these folks have 'often the best' jobs. If they're still living paycheck-to-paycheck (the closure hasn't even been a month, yet) are we supposed to feel bad for them?
And the IRS guy is just laughable. I'd give him six months in the private sector.
10
I personally helped hire someone who took a pay cut of at least $150,000 to leave the private sector and come work for the government, because she cared about public service. She is now either furloughed or working without pay. I’m glad you’re enjoying seeing federal workers suffer so tremendously, but your uninformed and malicious prejudices about government service say more about you than us.
54
Yes. You are supposed to care about your fellow Americans.
5
I don't care whether a person works for the Feds or the private sector. NOONE should be forced to work if they are not getting paid.
138
One shame of the situation is that the right has embraced this caricature of the government worker who is a lazy dmv worker. They've fueled resentment against people serving this country for less than their industry average pay (yes with better stability and benefits). I myself has worked around federal workers my whole career and would love to see a day in this country where citizens who work for our justice systems, national resources, federal law enforcement, social security, and god forbid just volunteer to help their neighbors out through federally supported programs like americorps... are respected as much as the military in this country.
38
@Michael, I have been been with the federal government for many years and have had my life and health at risk when serving overseas, for far less pay than I could command in the private sector. The overwhelming majority of my colleagues are hard working, dedicated, and talented individuals who work hard to promote the U.S. and it’s values. I am dismayed at what is happening at the moment, a huge THANK YOU to all the government workers for their service!!!!
25
Working for the federal government is not that great , any city job has them beat. There is no tuition reimbursement program, no decent medical coverage . The employees pay co pays like anyone else. Their dental coverage is non existent. Let’s shatter the notion that federal employment is so great. The pay is not competitive in big urban areas . The only thing it had going for it WAS job security. That’s now shattered.
54
@Bill Lombard
There is tuition reimbursement for applicable courses.
During open season you chose what plans to sign up for, including dental.
The better half just retired and took advantage of all of the above.
There Is NO tuition reimbursement program . Do not spread fake news and fake information. There is no program like that
2
The conventional wisdom that Federal employee benefits far exceed the private sector is oversold. For example, anyone hired after 1983 has a far less generous retirement plan than before, and Congress keeps increasing what gets deducted from employee pay as their share of the cost.
With more and more lower-skilled Fed jobs outsourced or eliminated, it becomes particularly inappropriate to compare benefits to Walmart. Similar private sector jobs for highly educated professional workers often have much more generous 401K matching and flexible benefit choices. Actually, I am being unfair to Walmart---with matching it will contribute 6% of salary to a 401K while at most Federal employees can get 5% of salary into a similar plan.
I am ignoring several positive things about Federal benefits, most notable good (though not the best) health plans and generous leave for those employed more than 15 years. But my overall point holds---while Fed benefits are still good, many private employers have benefit packages that overall are better.
13
A couple of corrections to your article on points that may lead to misconceptions.
1) Federal employees who were hired after 1986 do not receive full pensions. We receive a small pension as part of larger retirement package that includes a 401(k) type savings plan and social security.
2) Unlike many State and Local government workers we contribute to our health care plans, similar to most workers for large employers in the private sector. Health insurance is not free for us.
That said, your point that many Federal workers forego higher paying private sector jobs in favor of the stability of federal employment is well taken. This is why this disruption is hurting many of us.
134
When the government is the better employer in any area, that economy is dead.
The article quite obviously lays out the fallacy that public sector workers are paid less and sacrifice more comparatively during their work years to justify the superior taxpayer funded retirements.
These 'underfunded' obligations continue to cripple states like CT dragging our economy down and cementing a feudalistic system where you are either very wealthy or are directly tied to the state for your living.
The unprotected middle and private sector workers simply exist to feed the machine. But we are supposed to be grateful and feel badly for them during the shutdown?
3
Federal workers are a frequent object of right wing condescension and hostility, so the pain inflicted on them by the shutdown is in itself a political plus with the Trump base. The three governing emotions of the Trumpiverse are envy, malice and spite.
225
@Peter Aretin
Has anyone here ever wondered why government workers tend to vote Democrat? The party of big government will always require a larger and larger federal (and state and local) government workforce. It's a symbiotic relationship. I was going to say "parasitic" but that might be construed as insensitive.
1
@Ed L.
Actually federal employees usually vote Democratic because they usually know what the agency does and so they value government because they see the benefits it brings to the American people every day.
9
@Ed L. That would be Democratic
2
I’m opposed to the shutdown and I know many excellent federal government employees. In fact, I was hired by the feds, but this was revoked following Trump’s hiring freeze in January 2017.
Yes. Trump took my job.
But there is severe incompetence I the federal ranks. Employees that would not and could not make it elsewhere. Couple that incompetence with generous pay and benefits and we have rank unfairness.
8
Surely America is cleverer than this. Which other country of any significance cannot organise to keep itself running on a day-to-day basis. Using federal workers and essential government services as bargaining chips should not occur.
This is a symptom of a damaged system.
12
The fact that the government overpays relative to competitive jobs in the private sector is an argument for cuts to match the market, nothing more. Thats my tax dollars being wasted. Those are extra years that I have to work to support this bloat.
4
They may overpay lower-grade positions, like administrative work, but the IT contractors in my office get paid $20,000-$30,000 more than similarly-skilled feds (we all talk and compare notes). The benefits may level it up a bit, but in no way are the feds being compensated more.
15
@DRS
How do you know this - because Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity said so?
1
The mantra that Trump has shut the government down is as usual a false construct,He is refusing to sign spending bills that do not have funding for border security.
The shutdown would end if such funding were included in one of these spending bills.As for the stories that federal workers are relying on food banks to make ends meet
suggests that they are so poorly paid they have no savings or they cannot manage money properly.if the latter how do they qualify to work for the government?
5
@John: Or, the president could face reality and quit demanding five BILLION dollars as a down payment on a permanent, useless wall that would ultimately costs BILLIONS more in construction and maintenance, when we could be investing that money in American schools, public transportation, and desperately needed infrastructure. Even the Republican governor of Texas has joined with our two Republican senators and some twenty other Republican legislators to ask the president to give up the cockamamie idea of a wall, and spend the money already allocated for border security on technology and border protection personnel, instead. The administration didn't even spend the money that was given to them last year for border security! A wall is an impractical and unrealistic idea, and the longer the president clings to it, the more ridiculous and out-of-touch he seems.
19
So, when Trump stated publicly to the Senate leaders and the American people that he would be proud to initiate a government shutdown and wouldn’t blame anyone else for it, he was lying?
18
@John
Speaker Pelosi's intransigence is keeping the government closed. Americans realize this. They do not want a Democratic Party that just resists Trump.
If democrats really cared about government workers, they would demand Speaker Pelosi negotiate in good faith. Unfortunately, she refuses.
This is the Democratic Party's problem now.
3
"Government Shutdown Shakes Stability of Jobs That Are Often the Best Around"
For many right-wing Americans, this is the ultimate objective. It appears they put both immigrants and federal workers who are mostly native-born U.S. citizens into the same category: A group of "undesirable" people whose numbers ought to be reduced in the long run.
As I've written before, Donald Trump is a symptom and not a cause. It's not his fault that tens of millions of Americans are apparently so sick in the head that they've come to view federal workers as a kind of "enemy class" in need of a culling.
29
While this story is interesting, informative and well-written (complete with graphs), it is a human interest story meant to give a face to the problem at hand. It's a sidebar off the focus of this standoff.
On the other hand, how else can Natalie Kitroeff, Robert Gebeloff, and photographer Joseph Rushmore, practice, and refine their craft for the more important stories yet to come from this crazy administration?
1
Often it is good for people to get a little perspective. The federal jobs are usually pretty cushy. Benefits are typically so good they are probably unsustainable for the long term. Many with federal jobs retire ridiculously early. Maybe the average work ethic of the government employee might improve slightly, if this brief moment of need allows some awareness of what they typically take for granted.
8
@Doctor Yes. I've lived in the DC area for over ten years as a non-federal employee. I know federal employees retiring at 55 with 80% of their pay as their pension. WIth today's lifespans, this is unsustainable. Between their matched TSPs (the feds version of 401ks), their pensions, SS benefits (these can be reduced based on the above), and the health insurance, federal employees have benefits most of the private sector can only dream of.
7
I live in New York metro and Fed employees here typically make LESS than their counterparts in public sector. I’m not talking about clerks or secretaries, but engineers, mathematicians, computer & data science professionals that can move to any firm in a heartbeat
20
Benefits are not really good in comparison to working for any big corporation. Fed salaries are NOT competitive in big urban areas. If you work for NYC you are treated much better in benefits and salary. A fed correction officer earns a pittance compared to a city one.
4
Maybe Pelosi should also take some heat for this impasse.
Not as if this is the first physical barrier to be put up on our long border.
I feel for the folks who are in the middle taking the brunt of it.
8
@Mehul Shah
Hard to understand how Speaker Pelosi's "not one dollar" position can be considered rational. Of course, the Speaker's supporters don't want "rational". They want "blood."
2
Since these are among the best around all of them should have an 3 month emergency fund. And I bet several of them are not really worth what they cost, so reductions in personnel are a great idea. They can go to the private sector.
9
The ones who are leaving, at least in my office, are exactly the ones we don’t want to lose: young, enthusiastic and very talented. They can’t afford to be without a paycheck this long and have very marketable skills.
90
Not all federal employees make big bucks. Besides paychecks are spent and fuel the economy. Reducing the middle class even more is not going to help anyone.
The private sector is shredding jobs.
5
It just breaks your heart to see your fellow citizens and dedicated public servants being so so callous treated, literally as political hostages, by a mean-spirited autocrat in The White House and his Republican "willing accomplices" in Congress. It's insanity created by a narcissist who continues to rake in illegal profits from his nearby Trump International Hotel while his own employees are forced to work without pay facing the prospect of applying for food stamps in order to eat. It's long been clear that Trump's narcissism disorder prevents him from having any empathy or sense of human decency, but what's the excuse of his enabling Republicans who swore an oath to the Constitution not to Donald Trump and are required to act as "a check and balance" against such outrageous acts by a president. It's as if a political coup has taken place by the president and Republicans who demand the nation pay a $5.7 billion ransom to an autocrat. How can anyone who believes in our democracy accede to such blackmail and not give up the protections provided by the "rule of law"?
106
Federal pensions are not as lush as you think. Perhaps they were at one time, but these days federal employees need to actively save for retirement.
23
We are not given the details, so I am curious as to why Mr. Fosse, with his relatively generous $90k salary in North Dakota, feels compelled to sell his possessions at this point in the shutdown. We are encouraged to save enough to manage 3-6 months without a salary; this is not achievable by an overwhelming number of adults in this country, but I would surmise that federal employees, all things being equal, would have a better chance of meeting this recommendation since health is covered and there's less of a need to establish retirement savings (401k etc).
I would be curious to know if, in general, federal employees have met this savings cushion better than the population at large. If not, is it based on the presumption that it would never be needed, since federal employees are (usually!) not subject to the tribulations of the private sector? Or because federal employee cash salaries in general leave little room for the "extra" of saving?
22
@LS Federal health insurance (Federal Employee Health Benefit Plan) isn't free - premiums range from under $200/month for plans with huge deductibles to near $1,000 a month in ND (https://www.opm.gov/healthcare-insurance/healthcare/plan-information/plans/2019/state/nd/rates). And the Federal Employee Retirement System (FERS) is based on Social Security, a defined-benefit pension (1% of high 3 salary x years of service)(new employees contribute 4.4% of salary for that), plus Thrift Savings Plan (TSP), essentially a 401(k), another deduction. Then taxes. And don't forget student loan repayments taking another chunk out.
36
It’s basically garbage compared to any city pension or working for a big corporation. Fed correction officers earn nothing compared to city ones
6
Not all federal employees make 90k
6
Cause follows power! If you have the power to shut the government down and you used it, you are the cause of the disruptions and suffering that harms families your oath promised to protect.
34
(2)
Did Putin tell you to obfuscate? We saw the videoed fist pump, a locker room move; and the Oval visit, the no-bid security contact to a KGB official for our Moscow embassy, the Seychelles meeting, and basement back line to the Kremlin. Mainly, the stolen, unreported moments, in private meetings. And of course, the foreign policy shifts that match Russia’s template, especially in Syria, Asia, Europe, and NATO, to weaken or end alliances, cede hegemony, disrupt defense.
That makes American greatest a wholly owned subsidiary.
By Russia. Governed by Putin. Operated by carpetbaggers whose ties to oligarchs, through loose regulations, banking, and resource mining and power follow Russia’s template.
Tariffs are the beginning, but the US economy is being dismantled and reorganized to reflect Russia’s interests and to ensure American weakness. That’s what’s great. Believe it. You see it.
10
@walterhett This is america. trump's america. Didn't take long at all to run this company into the ground, did it?
Trump fails in common humanity. He sees nothing wrong with putting 800000 federal employees and many more related workers out of their paychecks as long as he gets his way. Pelosi realizes this and she can see the long term problem and bleak future for our country. This is a great responsibility for Pelosi and she might be blamed for this shutdown. But giving into this narcissist would do even more harm. Trump believes if it works once, do it over again until it does not work. We cannot afford more long shutdowns for Trump. When dealing with uncontrolled children you cannot let them have their way or they control you. Trump has no idea how much damage his tantrum is doing to this country. He only deals with his perceived wants and needs and those are momentary and ever changing. But Pelosi knows how to deal with children.
220
@Paul Raffeld I see it exactly opposite. Controlling our borders properly is worth an immense amount, and to deal with Nancy properly would not be legal. The president is doing what he promised and what is right in the long run, how about getting rid of some of these employees entirely, and find a way to pay those that are working and are needed.
6
@vulcanalex
Speaker Pelosi's position is the wrong one, which democrats will soon realize.
3
@Paul Raffeld, your first sentence says it all.
8
Forcing workers to perform their duties without pay or benefit is known is the definition of slavery. Mr. Trump nd his administrators are the lords of our nation, and now demand that the peons working to keep us afloat work for nothing. This more than shameful. Workers need to respond; a sit down, wildcat strike would be appropriate. Risky, but appropriate.
127
@Patrick Stevens They are not forced, they could quit.
7
@vulcanalex, quite cavalier, as long as its not affecting you.
16
If “the president is doing what he promised” then why was he unable to do it in the two years he had a Republican-controlled Congress? Why has he reneged on two deals already that would have given him funding? If he’s doing what he promised why are Americans expected to pay for it when he repeatedly promised Mexico would?
Because the “wall” is a con he uses to keep his reactionary, mostly rural rubes riled up and convinced he’s working for them, when actually he’s watching TV, eating, golfing, screaming incoherently at people and tweeting. And sadly, it works.
74
While I do share some sympathy, I do not get this:
".... “They are just normal people who don’t want to file for unemployment,” she says. There aren’t a lot of alternatives in the area....,"
My word apply for unemployment insurance so the financial (short term) loss can be mitigated. (Please remember that Congress has passed and the President has signed a bill to provide back pay once the government is re-opened.)
Finally, the NYT understates that she receives 4 weeks of paid vacation + 10 or so paid federal holidays - a pretty good deal......
9
Federal employees achieve 4 weeks paid vacation after 15 years of service, they don’t start with that.
12
@PI Man And depending on the state, furloughed federal employees might not be eligible for unemployment benefits as technically they are still employed. And with the back pay bill just signed, a furloughed employee who draws unemployment will have to pay every dime back to the state when the furlough is over, usually as a lump sum.
8
@PI Man
4 weeks of paid vacation a year and 10 or so paid national Holidays???
You mean like almost EVERY Employee in the Western World including many Asian countries and middle income countries globally??
America is the outlier among most modern western and wealthier countries where its citizens have been reaping benefits for decades or longer but are still not available to so many of them today because of a corporate and business class and structure that calls the shots versus most others where the people ( strange but true) come first and usually hold the power to benefit society and people before companies and profits coming first.
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I myself am a federal retiree. We have it good.
Federal workers and retirees have retirement and medical benefits, which is a big boost and makes the effective salary much larger.
People will not make it into the middle class unless they save. I am dismayed by all the stories of paycheck to paycheck living. No matter what the salary level is, no savings means no economic security and rules out aspirations to the middle class.
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A new college graduate starting to pay off his/her loans starting off in federal employment isn’t going to have 2-3 months of expenses saved up yet. It’s not a moral failure on their part, it’s bad timing.
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@Anne You should remember your days of active work when that office administrator was a GS-05, the budget clerk was not much higher in grade.
Many of us, with those degrees and working in specialized fields, did achieve higher grades which is also dependent on the organization needs.
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@Betty they could and just how many of these folks might be in that position. I have some relatives who have loans, they have an emergency fund, I gave them one.
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This dysfunction is doing manifest harm and should be ended. Any competent governance would never have allowed it. We do not need more anger and blame though. Let's see people with the power to end this take a deep breath and get the job done. We are beyond war.
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I was a civil service (federal) employee for 20 years on a big Navy base hospital, as an RN.... I worked for most of that time in the Navy Hospital O.R.
I cared for Navy and Marine personnel and their families (civilians) and yes, we were held to all the state and federal standards.
A common misconception, I've found, is held by people who think all modern federal employees enjoy the really good perks that were the case before the Reagan era.
During/ after Reagan, pay and retirement benefits were cut by a lot.
Nevertheless, it was an excellent job in good surroundings, and the pay was comparable to that in the 3 other major medical centers in which I worked before switching to Civil Service.
Yes, federal/ civil service employees CAN be fired or let go for cause. There is a union, but it is less powerful than the old traditional unions found in, for instance, car factories.
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This article actually helps explain why so many of us in the privet sector have little to no sympathy for Federal workers during the shutdown. Most of us don't have pensions, unions, health insurance, or great raises in the private sector. To say nothing of a paid holiday almost every other week. It really is hard for many of us to sympathize. The author probably should not have picked an IRS Revenue Agent to end the article. Not too many folks have sympathy for that guy.
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@Mike L It puzzles me why people resent the benefits that public sector employees get because of their unions, etc. instead of trying to organize and get those benefits back into the private sector. A case of "my neighbor has a cow and I don't have a cow. I want his cow to die."
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@Mike L
Few federal employees, except congress and the president, get pensions.
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So, @Mike, why did you and others like you allow your union to die or not organize a union to protect yourselves. Why haven’t you organized with others like you and demand certain reasonable protections like sick leave, health insurance and a pension from your employer or—if self employed—from the government to which you pay taxes? Did you really think your private sector bosses would be fair to you absent some outside inducement or requirement that they be so? You sound jealous and through that are aiming at the wrong target.
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Let's hope, then, that once Speaker Pelosi appoints all her committee heads, rational democrat will feel free to go around her and make a deal with the GOP on the border.
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@AACNY
Trump makes it clear there is no deal; there’s a wall, or shutdown. Not sure what you’re suggesting “rational democrat” can do with that.
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@AACNY
That would require the GOP to be grown-ups and actually have concern about the well-being of U.S. cititzens. Nice fantasy, though, like most FoxNews/Breitbart/Hannity/Limbaugh/Coulter/Infowarstalking points.
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While I am sympathetic to some individual situations described herein, there are lots of jobs in the private sector today. Perhaps it would be good for some of these government employees to get a taste of the real world they tend to lord it over. Of course they would have to show up on time, do something productive, and run the risk of being fired. You know, just like the rest of us. Where is it written government jobs are forever?
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@Thomas Smith:
the jobs can be lost....BRAC commissions close bases, on which many federal jobs are located, also a person can be fired, as can almost any other employee, for a variety of wrongdoing.
Where do you get the idea federal employees "lord it over" anyone? I was a civil service (federal) employee for 20 years on a big Navy base hospital, as an RN....not exactly a "lord of creation".
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@Thomas Smith
They work for American taxpayers, many of whom are not happy with how the government is handling border security. They should consider themselves lucky to have been insulated from the stresses of unmanaged illegal immigration thus far.
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@Thomas Smith I think you are right Thomas. I genuinely believe every one of those 800,000, with all of their expertise and skill should leave government employment and enter the private market place. Dollars to doughnuts, they'll out perform 90% of the people working there now.
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