Having "guidelines" for turning boys into more acceptable widgets for the Grand Collective has been an ambition of the left since the late 1960s. Men have always been a problem with their independence and testosterone pumping through their brains and veins, making them hard to control and often don't play well in non-male group-think/values agreement directed activities.
What to do? Begin shortly after birth with conditioning that replaces the common cultural themes "like anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence" with something less innately male, i.e., redirect their sense of male identity early to become not quite palace eunuchs but close.
13
Listen up men! There’s nothing wrong with showing your emotional feminine side but do it in private (i.e., in the presence of your woman, only) and don’t do even that until she’s recognized your masculinity (i.e., that your male gang respects you and other male gangs respect your gang).
Violate those rules and expect to wind up being friended. Don’t forget – women rule!
2
It’s strange to me how many comments, and other articles I’ve read focus on ideas of Masculinity as social constructs. The problems within seem to be pointed out more and more these days. So, by changing the current ideas of masculinity to add say some more feminine characteristics, would that be better? For whom? Would there be a whole new set of psychological issues to go with that? Why is it that the “war” with masculinity seem to run on the same divide as our current politics. What’s the percentage of traditional masculine males with psychological problems? Could it be that some people are just more susceptible to issues than others? I read many articles that generalize male behavior negatively, I’d ask anyone speaking/ writing on that to replace the word “male” with any minority group, and see how it sounds then.
20
I am a playground monitor for an elementary school, 3rd - 5th grades. In my experience, the boys (ages 9-11) cry much more than the girls, usually over hurt feelings or sometimes because they've lost a game and are disappointed in themselves.
I don't shame them or tell them to stop crying because they're boys.
16
Dear NYT:
I remember so well how my Dad used to tell me to be honest and not put up with fakers, to try be strong, to be kind and compassionate (especially to people who are not as strong as I was), to do my best to understand other points of view, to never bully people, to not be afraid to take risks and do things I was not yet expert in, to stand up for what I believe in, and to always play to win in any fair competition.
Are these now considered part of a traditional "male" ideology?
If so, then I still believe he was right. They worked well for me, and on balance, these values and behaviors have worked well for western civilization when people are both competitive and compassionate.
And these are the values I try to teach my girls.
43
I'm a quiet gentle guy who prefers female company.
I volunteer with childcare and typically sit with tiny girls doing beautiful handicraft while chatting quietly and pleasantly amongst themselves.
I observe boys typically running around with make-believe guns (made of lego or cardboard or such) waving them in others' faces - occasionally running up to the girls to do so
typically girls stare uncomfortably at such unwanted intrusions - the boys seem to want attention like 'aren't you impressed by the size of my gun ?'
the distance between the sexes at that age - boys using their muscles to impress each other with their physicality - girls sitting quietly choosing sparkly rainbows and glitter colours and materials to make something beautiful - to attract - the future man of their dreams - riding a pink princess pony ?
5
The premise here is based on the assumption that masculinity is socially constructed. But that isn't true. We know it isn't true because masculinity doesn't vary between cultures. Things that do vary between cultures and are socially constructed include manner of dress, general mannerisms, language, social rituals, and so on.
Male humans are more prone to taking risks and doing stupid things due to human biology. Male humans are more aggressive due to testosterone. We've known this for more than a century. Why have "scientists" forgotten it?
31
The reason men are in trouble? JOBS. Most of the work outsourced was blue collar labor; what remains - mostly service sector work, i.e. largely pink collar work. The real question that needs to be addressed - is masculinity, traditional or otherwise, adaptable? Those jobs are NOT coming back folks so yes many men must adapt and move into work spaces that are traditionally feminine. This is the bottom line.
Don't like it? Blame the jerks that outsourced your well-being. Where are these so called 'traditional' men - I don't see many in the comments here or out there. I see plenty in boring escapist ruts - drinking, drugging, gaming, and grieving and complaining of a time that will not return.
Move on and get with the program - use that interest in adventure and risk taking to retool for a new job. Turn that fear of looking weak into a reason to quell the 'poor me' thinking and pick yourselves up instead of drowning in escapism. Take a traditionally feminine quality and find friends and family to encourage you along the way.
13
I wonder if trans men face the same issues.
6
It's true that our particular regional and familial cultures have great influence on us. To this day however, it still feels like we suppress the deepest animal parts of us regardless of our surroundings. People laugh at the old caveman cartoon where he clubs a woman to have her. If we were to be brutally honest, most of us would prefer that today. Instead we behave ourselves and play the role.
5
There really should be no gender norms...all people should just take on the female gender norm and boom, all problems solved. We don't need macho men to protect women and children from marauding bandits anymore. If men acted like women, people would be a lot happier. Just saying, my girlfriends talk all the time about wishing men were more like women in private, its only in public that they are "attracted" to macho men because of societal pressures.
You see a woman marry a macho man and two years later shes out the door with a broken face and her husband is in jail on a DV. Seen it a million times. Macho men = Domestic Violence.
10
I am so sorry for you and your friend’s choices.
18
I, for one, enjoy sitting back and watching the reactionaries foaming at the mouth. Gender identity is so close to the heart of the problem with this country, it is clear that anyone who goes there will face the fury of the scared little boys.
But it is good to let them have their tantrum. Listen closely to what they have to say. Shudder. Think about how we can defeat them. This is the hard core that does not want our help. Offer them help, and they will try to destroy you for threatening to expose their weakness.
13
I teach at an all-boys school and I was thrilled to see these guidelines. I hope my students "discard the harmful ideologies of traditional masculinity (violence, sexism) and find flexibility in the potentially positive aspects (courage, leadership)."*
*Dr. Ryan McDermott from a recent article on the APA website about the guidelines.
6
When men are happy, they’re entitled and privileged. When they’re afraid, they’re weak and pathetic. When they’re angry, they’re frightening and dangerous.
Men share their emotions all the time, but the master narrative reframes them as problematic. As if it’s categorically impossible for a woman to be a monster, unless men made her that way.
Is it really any wonder men are hesitant to share their real feelings with feminist wives and girlfriends, or the psychologists these women treat like shaman?
27
Contrary to what is espoused by this report, you can be raised both moral and masculine.
30
For those interested, take a look at the book by James Hollis, PhD, Under Saturn's Shadow - The Wounding and Healing of Men, 1994:
Chapter 5 Healing the Souls of Men
Great explication of the rage that men hold
1
Well, gee, lets just teach them all how to be women and that will make it all better. Idiotic article.
18
Or we could teach them to be better men, Atticus Finch rather than . . . take your pick of macho jerks.
9
Maybe half of american films observe and critique current modes of masculinity. Obviously we are all acculturated and this socially constructed identity can limit and even smother us in different ways, whether one is privileged or normative or whatever. Still, not sure APA has the whole picture or has framed this in the most constructive way...
2
Over half the births to single parent (women) homes.
Boys growing up without a male role model.
Of course the default is to resort to unhelpful stereotypes.
There are good, manly men who are not toxic. I’m one and so is my dad and son.
31
Reading many of these comments confirms for me just how "baked in" patriarchal ideas are in everything we see, hear, and experience. Terry Crews, who for many might epitomize "masculinity" (whatever that word means), is a good example of a man not afraid to examine and question the old order. I'm certain our species is not anywhere near as evolved as we could have been by now precisely because of the suppression of women. Supposedly women are better at listening. Whether that is because of social conditioning, biological determinants, or a little of both, one thing is clear: if you're too stubborn or fearful to listen and consider new information, you'll likely be left behind.
9
It's telling that the A.P.A. authors refer to “traditional masculinity ideology” rather than traditional masculine experience: farm, factory or military and other physical jobs. Add to that a sense of duty and fulfilling responsibilities one has taken on. The jobs are less common now, but if they think traditional masculinity is mostly an ideology, they're missing a lot. Are they unaware how common it was for men to turn over their paychecks to their wives and get an allowance in return? I think we need to raise a better generation of psychologists.
32
My own experience of boyhood is that you got slaughtered by other boys for showing signs of vulnerability. This had nothing to do with girls yet because at the age of seven we were all committed to pretending that we thought girls were gross, no matter how attractive we actually found them. It was a ruthless and punitive culture and there was nothing “natural “ about it; either you conformed or you were mocked and an outcast—and to refuse to repress your feelings and to live as a nonconformist takes some strength that those who exalt “strong” men should at least think about.
48
I am confused. I am a 72 year old man, and I have never doubted who I am, a man, what is this nonsense about. You are confusing these young men only next week or next month that the reverse is true. This is not about whether coffee is good for you, or taking a bath everyday is bad for your skin. This is about assessing manhold and womanhood. We have to be either, we can't be both.
31
After reading some of the comments, it's obvious some of the more negative commenters have not read the article. As a parent of boys, an educator who has worked for at-risk/high needs programs where the majority of the students are boys, and a person with younger brothers, brothers-in-law, a husband, and a dad, all of whom I love and respect, I can say that society expanding its understanding of what it means to be a boy or man is a good thing that will lift us all up.
When we say a man or boy can be whoever he wants to be as long as he is not harming another, we are saying he can tear up at the country song that he's listening to while pumping iron at the gym. We are saying he can respond to an aggressor without being violent, and he won't look weak for keeping the peace. We are saying that a dad can take his young child to the playground and feel as equal a parent as all the moms who outnumber him there. We are saying that if is his favorite character is Princess Rosalina in Super Mario Galaxy, that is so cool because she IS so cool - her job is protecting the cosmos!
To respond to this article negatively is to deny men and boys the full life that is possible for them. Maybe you just need to read the article. Take some time to do that. Also check out the link to the guidelines. They are both good reads. Breathe. Learn. Grow.
68
I've noticed a lot of simplistic comments involving testosterone. Men and women are different, yes. Increased testosterone does cause a higher level of aggression, yes. However, testosterone does not make men immune to the effects of hardship. Biochemistry, neurology, sociology, and psychology are all much more complex. The interaction between these compounds this complexity.
Telling boys/men they can never show emotions (i.e. cry), admit they are wrong, or ask for help is not healthy. It leads to men/boys internalizing and feeling ostracized. Boys and men are subjected to cruelty because they cry or show any emotion beyond happiness or anger. The APA is not recommending we ask men to become women - they are asking them to feel more comfortable being human. This should not make us feel threatened.
Before making broad assumptions on a scientific article I plead you to read it. Understand it and the underlying principles before decrying it an 'overreach', 'fake news', or 'more [insert a four letter word] from the establishment'. These people are incredibly intelligent and educated with loads of experience. Let's weigh our knowledge and experience vs. that of the researchers with the vast amounts of data they have collected.
Also, at risk of angry replies, sociology is a construct we as a society have created. Feminity, masculinity, and gender are made up by people. These are not immutable facts of the universe.
46
When I first read this article, with its reliance on mind-numbing academic jargon, I thought it might be a parody. Alas, I was wrong. We have lost our way in a thicket of abstractions. I am a white heterosexual male. I had a wonderful career, built a good life for my family, and am proud of it. I guess that makes me a traditional man, but this article seems to suggest that such a person is somehow aberrant. I guess I should see a therapist to address my “issues.”
On second thought . . . No thanks.
32
No that’s not really what the article is saying. Your life is fine and no one is criticizing you for choosing to spend it that way. However, if we tell boys that their only option is not to show emotion or feeling, that’s where the problem is.
30
Bad enough that we must put up with these absurd ideological attacks on masculinity, but since when did the American Psychological Association become an ideological organization rather than a scientific one?
I haven't seen such a mockery of scientific ethics since the days when homosexuality was deemed a "disorder."
When they point to common themes like “anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence," they are making moral judgments, not scientific ones.
And what exactly is wrong with achievement and adventure, anyway? Should Neil Armstrong have sought therapy because he wanted to step on the moon?
I would humbly suggest that if they want boys to be happy and healthy, they stop attacking the characteristics of boys, and give them a bit of support instead.
36
You're incorrect. The report reveals data; it doesn't make judgments. What's interesting in the comments is the way folks cling to traditional masculinity and see it as under attack. Laura ingraham's comment in the article is typical, and hypocritical considering that she has a traditionally male-associated career and is known to be an aggressive debater. The report doesn't call men pigs. It points to ways that masculinity traps men mentally. Conservatives want the trapping to continue. They should read the article about farming women also in today's Times. Gender roles are changing no matter what, and those able to adapt will survive better than those who can't.
10
Our boys are in trouble. They drop out of school more than girls, are kicked out more, go to jail more, and are more involved in violence. They commit suicide 4TIMES as much as girls (according the National Suicide Hotline and the NIH), are fed Ritalin more, and go on to receive only 40% of college degrees.
When girls were behind in school, we recognized the problem and got to work to help them. Now that boys are behind, they deserve to be helped as much as the girls deserved it. Yet Times best-selling feminist writers like Hanna Rosin (The End Of Men) say that these are not problems to be solved, but rather feminist triumphs to be celebrated.
32
One more link in the chain of the indictment of men for, actually, whatever. In the librul viewpoint, men are guilty, and all that is necessary is to find "of what". Sooner or later, men, they are coming for you. And as sure as my Ph.D. says "Psychologist" on it, I can assure you that this is bunkum of the most fundamental sort.
8
@GeorgePTyrebyter
You have interpreted the APA document wrong.
4
I am male and I like my adventure, risk, and violence very much, thank you. What hurts boys and men are desk jobs and expecting them to be feminine. Boys and men should be out there building things, using tools, chain-sawing trees, and yes using force when it's necessary.
21
Chainsawing their own trees, I hope, for firewood, or learning to be real arborists so that they can properly care for our urban trees.
Not cutting down trees in Joshua Tree National Park.
That's for louts, not men.
14
I can't wait until men are back in fashion. They are humanity's greatest resource, the generators of mankind's greatest achievements in the arts and sciences. Political correctness is stifling our men and our society and turning the world into one big mediocrity. I say, bring back the boys.
25
As if there is a "traditional masculinity". There are 3 men in my family and all are very different in terms of masculinity. In this world there is fake news. And in this case barely believable and waste of time news. Really...
18
"[Males] commit the vast majority of violent crimes". No need to bury the lede halfway through the article, THIS is glaring issue that most needs to be addressed in our assessment of masculinity. Male violence and the ever-present threat of it, whether he acts alone (domestic violence, mass shooter, rapist, mugger, school bully, etc) or with accomplices (gang rape, tribal raids, warfare, genocide) is the bane of existence for the rest of us (and isn't doing males themselves any favors).
It is our moral duty to recognize this and act in concert to rid ourselves of this heinous blight on humanity through whatever moral means we have at our disposal. To not do so, to turn a blind eye to it, accept such violence as "inevitable", or especially to go so far as to praise "traditional masculinity" is to be morally complicit for that violence.
Reading the comments of angry males who are convinced that feminism non-traditional gender roles are the real enemy, one can't help but be a bit reminded of Elliot Rodger and other infamous murderous incels pining for the days when women accepted their place as property to be controlled by men. Um, yeah, no thanks.
26
I appreciate the concern: "“We’re trying to help men by expanding their emotional repertoire, not trying to take away the strengths that men have.”
But there's something odd about 20 pages of guidelines and 10 pages of sources about men and boys that never uses the word "testosterone."
9
We drug boys when they act like "boys" (ALL aggression is bad we assume), we now force them to "learn" with math word problems (girls develop verbal skills sooner than boys), we force them to "share" their feeling- when many don't want to- under the assumption that "expressing" feeling is universally good for both genders. We scream when they play violent videogames or if they hang out with other boys and act like, well, boys.
No wonder boys have been left behind while girls have excelled in almost every metric.
And now this is codified in "science."
Meanwhile another generation of girls will wonder, "where are all the good men?" The answer is: we beat them up and they dropped out.
13
Or to paraphrase the song from "My Fair Lady," why can't a man be more like a woman?
8
The RHETORIC is damaging. In an age of political correctness, it's no surprise the public doesn't extend it to men since they presume they don't deserve to be protected due to their alleged "privilege".
Do we need to liberate and redefine what it means to be a man? Sure! But using antagonistic methods and terminology in the process negates the entire purpose!
This feels more like an attack on inherent masculinity than a truly sensitive aid for men and boys everywhere.
15
After reading through some of the comments my first thought is that there is a lot of defensiveness here. That tells me that these new guidelines are moving things in the right direction.
It's a real breakthrough to acknowledge that patriarchy hurts males too. I feel lucky to be with a man who was able to see that over 35 years ago.
In my egalitarian marriage we care about and protect each other, we listen to each other, each provides support when the other needs it, we solve problems together. We contribute our unique strengths to our partnership. We support each other to try new things. We have even taken turns being the primary care givers for our children.
Freedom from societal expectations (which are harshly enforced in some places) allows people to explore all their gifts and qualities thus having more to share. It allows people to be themselves without carrying the self-loathing and anger that can lead to suicide and violence.
None of this is bad. None of this means you can't do traditionally male activities. It just means you're allowed to do and be even more.
47
@Lynne
Defensiveness, that is, opposition, does not arise necessarily only because something "is moving in the right direction". Your premise is very simplistic. On the other hand, I am happy that you are happy with the way you have chosen to live your life.
9
The APA is expounding on beliefs that are so large, so lofty (like the title "Traditional masculinity can hurt boys"), it is, in essence, a useless document. I trust that there are kernels of truth in it. For example, men never showing emotion, being stoic, are not good, but part of who we are.
But along with "the bad" is also "the good": protecting one's family, supporting one's family, being the disciplinarian.
Of course, each side can be argued endlessly. So what? This helps no one. This report just adds fuel for more Twitter fights.
56
I would chuckle at the APA's silly effort to define "toxic masculinity," but there is, unfortunately, real trouble here. What seems like the liberal bon mot of the day, "It's so in accord with our prejudices!," is, in fact, likely to be used by the liberal zealots in public schools to classify normal boy behavior as "toxic."
As it is, the emphasis on "pre-k" education is prompting four-year-old boys to be placed in classrooms where their disinterest in sitting still is used as a reason for imposing "behavioral testing." The conclusions of this testing seem never to be that they are acting like four-year-old boys, but, rather, that they need Ritalin to subdue their toxic behavior.
Even if the parents choose to ignore this idiocy, it becomes a part of the child's record--a record used to make assumptions about future class placements. So, this lunacy, this redefinition of masculinity in support of the further feminization of society has real-world effects upon future generations of young men.
If there were a father in every home to guard against this poppycock, it would remain the rightly-mocked opinion of fools. However, too many homes lack any father figure and, so, this junk "science" creeps in.
This is the devil's work and good men everywhere need to take a stand against it.
22
@Thomas A. Hall In fact, normal boy behavior IS defined as toxic. I remember my son's JH. He was in the Honor Society. The rules held that you would be booted if you did 1 major infraction, or 3 minor infractions. I tried to argue to the female principal that this was anti-boy, since boys do stuff like jumping up to hit the ceiling (minor infraction). Sure enough, in 2 months, he had 3 minor infractions (jumping in the hall, etc) and was out. By 8th grade, no boys were in the Honor Society.
18
bell hooks, in her 2004 book "The Will to Change," addressed this very topic. Pity that it's just now getting the attention it deserves.
8
Reading the comments makes it very clear that lots of men are terrified and threatened by issues like this, and many of the objections sound oddly like eugenics: Men are bred this way; nothing you can do about it. No different than curly hair, or hairy ears.
28
only because men are inherently genetically and instinctively different from women. and part of the reason we are still here on this planet as a species.
10
@Michael c
This seems to be another tactic of the left. If a man disagrees with the dogma he's just an unevolved cavemen incapable of being reasonable.
You ignore what the comments actually say and insert your strawman caricature of masculinity.
12
@Michael c It's called testosterone, and it is a hormone which men possess, but some are short on. It makes them aggressive. Men are sexually aggressive. Until 10 years ago, the game was "men tried stuff, women stopped them unless they were in favor". Now no one knows the rules, and pair-bonding is way down.
9
If my dad were feminine, I would not want that. He is a strong man that my mom and siblings and I relied on to provide and protect and fix and demonstrate all the things I was not created to be. He loves us and would do anything for us. I love him for that. I respect that.
If my mom were masculine she would not have been the nurturing, teaching, comforting, compassionate and beautiful example she gave to me growing up. She stayed home with us until we were in school and then began to work outside the home.
Our family was traditional, why do people have to try and mess with that? IT IS GOOD! It's the way a family should be.
If others don't want to live that way, they shouldn't make those of us who are content with the way we were created (either male or female), to explore and seek out what seems uncomfortable until it feels "normal" while society turns a blind eye to the destruction of a family and then humanity accepts it-all because God is taken out of the equation.
If you are a man, don't let people allow you to think you are toxic. That's just silly. Men are supposed to be different.
What about toxic women..those who gossip, are catty and manipulative. Why does that topic not get equal traction. There are extremes to both!
23
@Circumspect If you read the article, I think you misunderstand what is actually being stated here. It's a very tame article stating the obvious: there are aspects to patriarchy that are damaging to men as people. Human beings. Nothing here talks about feminizing or emasculating.
24
@Circumspect - I think what bothers people the most is tying the work "masculinity" to all of these negative traits. There is no such thing as toxic masculinity, because there is nothing masculine about guys who are thin-skinned, emotionally-dead, hyper-aggressive jerks. Their defining characteristic isn't that they are masculine, it's that they are jerks.
21
@Jim Agreed! I know it's a buzz term and I hate it! It's not fair to men and I think it's meant to cause division. I just want men reading it to know that not all of America agrees with the ridiculousness of the term and that I respect men who are men that are not jerks. And it bothers me that nobody mentions the women who are jerks. It's one sided to demonize men.
10
here we go again. let's make everyone conform to something the majority are not. because it's better for the minority. let's basically turn men into women and women into men and we can all be happy as one androgynous species. men and women are genetically and instinctively programmed different. men are from Mars, women are from venus. why do we feel we have to override that primal instinct?
but wait--arent we currently celebrating the woman? the strong, powerful over-achieving woman? get them into top management, into govt and everywhere else. so aren't we really celebrating women becoming more like men? and that's ok but at the same time we have to turn the men into women? this is the screwiest logic I've seen in a long time.
23
Achievement and strength, two of the virtues that these guidelines cite as examples of masculinity, are “harmful” to boys.
This should erase any doubt that psychiatry is politics in medical garb.
16
Traditionally boys do everything, repeat everything, to impress girls and be able to protect/serve potential offspring. There is nothing more to it. If females are impressed, boys are happy. If not, boys get frustrated and angry.
Don't know exactly why girls/women do what they do, maybe many reasons. But straight boys are pretty simple in their motives. I hope the APA starts from this bedrock premise.
9
Men need to know that it's okay to cry. Men need to know that women need to be treated with respect. Seems to me that our society pushes a toxic masculinity on our boys. Look at the rates of pornography addiction (which degrades women) and suicide (indicating a hopelessness and despair) among men.
As for the rest of the article...I'm not following. An important question that needs answering:
What IS traditional masculinity ideology?
The article says it's a bad thing, and claims that because of this toxic ideology, men have poor eating habits and are emotionally stunted, and die earlier than women as a result.
Am I to take the photo of a father and son hugging at church to be a bad thing? Or the picture of young, seemingly healthy teenage boys engaging in a group sport? To me, both those pictures express healthy socialization and camaraderie. These are good things. This article is confusing.
11
@Kayla Agreed. It's like the authors (of the original report or of this article) were afraid to spell out what they mean by toxic masculinity. I'm assuming being discouraged from expressing emotions other than anger and stoicism, fear of appearing vulnerable, asking for help, compassion, etc. These are not controversial ideas.
3
So this comes to mind.
After the release of the movie Toy Story 3 in 2010, stories began to circulate (one here in the NYTimes) of the sobbing emitted by men viewing the final scene – which depicted a now-grown Andy preparing to embark upon college.
In this scene, we witness Andy divesting himself of his toys. With care, he imparts each one to a neighbor kid, explaining with loving detail how important they are.
I myself was inconsolable during this scene.
So I thought about it a lot. I’m kind of a sensitive guy, so maybe I didn’t count – but what of these he men being reduced to puddles?
My take is this: They toys represent a vestige of enchantment in the lives of men before such things are cast aside to take on the traditional burden of being a man in a man’s world. These men were literally crying out for what was lost.
But something they still recognize from long, long ago.
I maintain that masculinity as it is currently imposed is indeed toxic. For everyone.
28
or maybe it's just male bonding between a male child and his friends, his toys, with whom he many typical "male-like" adventures. soldiers fighting a war, rescuing the heroine, defeating the bad guy, etc...Because if you notice, Andy didnt have any real life friends. so maybe, just maybe you are completely overanalyzing a kids movie and trying to make it a statement on real life.
2
@bored critic
The neighborhood kid Andy gives his toys to is a girl. Which is not to say a boy can bond with a friend who is a girl.
Just … FYI.
2
Forget the study. People would be better served by searching YouTube for Comedian Bill Burr's hilarious and insightful bit about the time he tried to bring himself to buy a pumpkin for Halloween.
5
@Jim I just watched that. So sad. And hilarious.
2
Responsible masculinity is the answer. Common sense. Balance. Decency. Plenty of males have them and they do much of the good work and loving in this culture. What we get in the public forum, on the other hand, are caricatures of masculinity from the left and right. Anti-masculinity, misandry - no matter how dressed up in social science language - is simply the ideology of the 60s left. It's doomed to failure and ridicule due to the innate biological differences between male and female. It also calls forth the shaggy beasts of right-wing reaction - the bad masculinity.
93
@BarrowK Amen.
4
@BarrowK
[[Responsible masculinity is the answer. Common sense. Balance. Decency. Plenty of males have them and they do much of the good work and loving in this culture.]]
I see it all the time...dads walking with their kids, holding hands, answering the questions little kids ask.
16
@BarrowK
Honestly, as a liberal Democrat, I'm not in the habit of facing the right, but I think the right wing reaction is entirely appropriate here.
This kind of twirly-eyed misandry is not part of any political movement I respect and it drives me away from the liberals with whom I share most core beliefs.
If the right is willing to say that, I respect the right (something I am not often in a position to say).
10
Given the daunting statistics on suicide, opiod use, prison populations and non-participation in higher education, you'd think that men would welcome the focus on their needs.
Why the resistance? Is this further confirmation that men don't seek out or accept help?
116
@Cousy
Because feminizing men and suppressing centuries of evolutionary biology in favor of "social construct" nonsense is not the cure, it's the disease. The APA literally wants to double down on the cause rather than the cure, which is properly honing traditional male traits to be a force for good. The cure is not turning men into women and causing frustrating denials and conflicts between biology and external inculturation.
45
@Cousy
Apparently, the big strong men in this discussion don't need any help. Apparently, they are afraid of thinking about the narrow definitions allowed to American men. They are afraid that they will become women.
10
@Cousy Because it is the "help" like this offered by the APA that is causing these problems.
Usually if a demographic group is being badly hurt by social rules, we examine the rules and who they favor, not the people struggling and failing under the rules.
5
How about instead of maligning normal people you focus on identifying and helping those whom fall outside of the norm? The maligning starts with a false idea "socializing boys away from that inherent need". I've never seen this. regardless of how masculine or stereo typical all boys and men I have ever seen seek out and engage in close personal relationships with other boys.
Seems simple enough to say, for boys who even after trying a few times don't want to be like everyone else be kind and allow them to find their own path.
What I see here is an attempt to force everyone else to accommodate the few instead of just being kind to the few who are different which is all that is necessary to help them.
21
The problem for most young boys .. young women.
We can fight about culture/race/ class/biology ... but, young women gravitate towards what is .. currently described as "toxic masculinity" in males.
I'm gay .. so have no particular fight in this game -- but it makes me an interesting observer of both straight women and gay women .. who particularly view this behavior as "toxic" .
There is much more going on here -- trying to mold society is not going to work. Soften the edges ..maybe.
7
The article is light on detail but the selection of that picture of the boys basketball team reveals the implied context. The sullen faces clearly show a team that lost a game so they're sad, beaten down by the patriarchy, conflicted because society is demanded something unfair of them and they are being persecuted as failures.
It really grinds my gears when psychologists start correlating their grievances with what boys and girls engage in during sports. I hated sports, was totally ill equipt to compete at anything, I thought. But it did me enormous good. I learned not just how to lose gracefully, but also to win without bragging or humiliating anyone else. Winning, losing, public exposure of their egos and weaknesses; sports exercises more than just the body, things that immeasurably improve the ability to manage a lifetime of complex social situations.
I rarely hear psychologists talk about the benefits of sports teaching and exercising proper ways to handle these things and it makes me doubt their expertise when they start making these kinds of sweeping declarations about what is good for people.
9
right. sad only because they lost. who likes to lose? but it happens all the time so let's learn how to deal with it. because the extrapolation to this study and the article will be that sports are no good and children should not participate in them at all. gimme a break.
2
Imagine what therapy would have accomplished for millions of women if the males weren't considered the norm! We want our money back!
5
"GUIDELINE 1: Psychologists strive to recognize
that masculinities are constructed
based on social, cultural, and
contextual norms."
Right here we can see that they are ideologically possessed. They are unable to acknowledge that masculinity is at least, partially biologically determined. That's the exact argument transgender individuals use to justify their innate discordance with their sex assigned at birth (which I support)!
9
If it took them 100 years to reach these simple conclusions, then why is this an organization that anyone should take seriously? From the correct and valid historical context provided in the article, it is clear that the APA is a joke and the organization should basically be ignored to death, and NOT GIVEN MONEY OR AUTHORITY. That would be a much more appropriate focus of an article like this. Thanks
7
I had already seen the excellent documentary "The Masks We Live In" in which real men (athletes, coaches, successful business men, prisoners, fathers, sons) are interviewed. This article could not adequately convey how valid the APA's guidelines are to therapists who work with men seeking help. Some of the comments below suggest understandably mistaken inferences from the article. I believe that much more insightful reporting and discussion is needed on this subject for the health of our country. It's fundamental to many problems we are experiencing as a society.
14
People really need to read the guideline before making an opinion. It isn’t long and it isn’t a hard read.
10
Stephanie, people also need to read the article by David French in National Review linked in this piece. It’s an excellent refutation of the arguments presented by the APA and the quote provided here is taken out of context. There is a balanced approach here, but telling young boys that it’s OK for them to not grow up and act like men, wear their heart on their sleeve, or otherwise conform to the zeitgeist of emotion and feelings is inherently harmful to society as a whole. Gender is not a fluid principle. We need to be sensitive to those who struggle to conform to certain models of behavior, but to say that men shouldn’t act like men or that women shouldn’t act like women is entirely absurd. Let’s understand that nostalgia for past is a bit wrongheaded. History clearly shows that their is good and bad in the past related to this subject. But, throwing out societal norms on gender relationships, what makes a man, and what makes a woman is absurd.
7
[[Ideas about masculinity [have] common themes like “anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence.”
So..."achievement" is a bad thing?
And not wanting to appear weak is a bad thing?
On what planet do these people live? Male or female, if you're walking down the street, why would you want to appear weak? Head up, shoulders back and you eyeball anybody who moves in your direction. What's wrong with that?
"Adventure and risk"...like what? Crossing an ocean for the first time, flying to the moon, inventing a faster car, building tall buildings and bridges.
And the capacity for violence comes in handy when you're facing a threat. There was a time when women were coached to walk at night with their keys poking between their fingers as they made a fist and if they were attacked they should punch the attacker in the face or under the jaw.
It's a fact that men are over represented in prison, but if you look at who commits violent crimes you'll probably see a low level of academic achievement and a high level of illiteracy.
Anyway, thank god everyone is announcing their pronouns...I'm sure that will solve everything.
28
@Third.coast The APA did not say achievement, adventure and risk, etc. were inherently wrong or always harmful. Rather, these are identified as the characteristics typically associated with masculinity. Such characteristics can be strengths and weaknesses. Consider achievement. Striving to achieve a personal goal, and then meeting that goal, is an essential human need and builds a sense of fulfillment. But, if a drive for achievement leads to a willingness to step on others, or use force, violence, or break the law to achieve, then it is a bad thing.
The guidelines are meant to help psychologists understand and provide care - not prescribe for society universal traits that are always 'good' or always 'bad.'
19
I find these publications of "guidelines" to be creepy and scream of "big brother." While perhaps well-intended, such professional organizations like the APA and the AAP, American Association of Pediactrics are in effect delving into the realm of culture, a place they have no business. It is our current obsession that science is more valid than culture itself and is always the panacea to problems. Of course, a few hundred years ago the panacea was religion.
A guideline on how to change a transmission on a 56 Chevy is good. Humans are far too complex and often guidelines in psychology have unintended consequences. They have no right to take the mantel of Moses.
14
the short answer is it's a war on men.
12
No, it's not a war on men. It's an acknowledgement that not all men are the same. There's lots of different ways to be a man.
20
@rip--in general, it is a war against men. what you are missing is its saying that what might be right for a smaller % of men should be right for all of them. deal with exceptions on an exception basis. don't make the majority have to conform to the minority.
5
I’ve taught community college students for 30 years and have seen all strips of students. To talk about personal issues is becoming a wee bit easier for young men, but they’re crying out for help as much as the young women. This study is not the Bible on how to raise a young man, it’s another tool to use in our plethora of information that helps people like me, offer a sympathetic ear and some common sense alternatives.
There are certain facts no one can deny, it is males who are the highest number incarcerated. Our mass shooters? This alone should wake us up; the boys are not alright.
50
@Bklynbrn
Let's take your shameless stereotyping a step fufurther: "Minority men are a majority of felons, minority men are not alright."
Spot the problem with that?
5
@Nirrin
Huh? Who said minority men? But since you bring them up, maybe minority men have more obstacles facing them in their efforts to fulfill traditional ideas of manhood?
5
Well, if you're talking about our cities, your assertion is correct. Some "minority" men comprise the majority of our criminals.
In our rural areas, well, it's another thing. There, it's white men who are definitely not all right, who commit our mass murders, rapes, and other types of crime.
1
Boys and men are a mess right now - its better that we admit it so we can come together for solutions.
Young men are not only filling prisons, abusing opiods and committing suicide at alarming rates, but they are not going to college at even close to the rates that young women are.
I don't know what the solutions are - that's what the APA is for - but denying the problem is foolish.
15
Then you would support the VAW Act reducing its allotment in order to fund programs for the demographics most at risk for drugs, violence, prison: i.e., young black and brown men and women.
So the APA announces it has discovered the truth that most people killed in wars are male. This is what passes for knowledge these days.
17
Politics will destroy the credability of any institution that adopts it.
What's ridiculous is anyone taking this seriously. Psychiatry is not a science. It's a scientifically cataloged collection of opinions. It dosen't rest on facts. Any authority it might have had depends in part on it being seen as apolitical. Soon the AMA will be just as credible as the southern poverty law center.
25
The issue is resilience and adaptation. There are men who are clinging to the past - their "hands-on" jobs, their need for dominance, their warrior mentality. They are looking for father figures in Jordan Peterson and Donald Trump.
It ain't working anymore. Gotta try something new.
42
@Jamal Amen!!!
2
Ambition, adventure, and risk are now toxic male attributes? These attributes are what has driven humanity to accomplish everything from putting a man on the moon to extending living age well into one's 80's. The current trend to suppress these traits and feminize men is what has led to maladjusted, frustrated, confused boys, not the existence of masculinity. The infection of feminist propaganda and "gender theory" in psychology, like it has throughout the humanities, was I guess inevitable. Hopefully someone will pump the brakes on this madness before it's too late.
113
@JasonR I didn't get that they were toxic from reading the article; I got that they are some of the reasons why men's life expectancy is lower. What the report is trying to say is that, in addition to the strengths men are allowed to express in our culture, men need to be permitted a wider range of options.
42
@Blonde Guy
The ambition and risk taking exhibited by men is what leads to everything from cliff jumping, being the test pilot in the first speed of sound flight, and being the guy who is willing to rush into a burning building to save a baby. These traits tend to shorten lives, and is part of the reason why men comprise 98% of all dangerous jobs (miners, fisherman, roofers, etc) and 92% of all workplace fatalities. You see plenty of women wanting to be CEO's, but I don't see many arguing for fairness in dangerous jobs or workplace deaths. The APA seems to feel that the qualities that leads to these admirable traits/jobs/accomplishments should be neutered and discouraged, because when improperly developed, the flip side of risk taking and ambition can lead to external or internalized violence. Instead of dissuading men from their embracing evolutionary biology, the APA should focus on WHY these male traits can be improperly developed for the forces of evil rather than good.
30
@JasonR
No one is trying to "feminize" men, nor do they claim ambition, adventure or risk to be toxic.
Read the guidelines instead of making uninformed judgements.
https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guidelines.pdf
73
I am a 28 year old male that is a fairly stereotypical of how one may perceive the normal US white male. I consider myself quite fortunate/happy in life and so do my friends. But I also notice how my male friends struggle with these traditional male concepts. Even though we love each other as brothers, we can't open up.
It isn't a conscious thought that "I have to be tough" but it is like there is a wall in my mind that refuses to allow me to discuss such things. No one ever taught me this behavior - I was raised by almost all women who were open with feelings, so this partially makes me think this wall is biological. And I do think there are biological differences that partially explain men's struggles/women's success in this increasingly social society.
But I also have noticed over time if I do open up to guys, or tell them things that aren't "manly" they start laughing and teasing. If you say something "girly" or different, an insecure guy starts teasing and other insecure guys follow. I don't think these guys are bad, but only join in to avoid being teased themselves.
Contrast this with my friends who are women. I can literally talk to them about anything and they listen intently and give me feedback. I can talk about my feelings, or anything, and women almost always listen and are supportive.
I hope men can change. Older men have it even worse that I've seen. They are lonely and can never open up. We need to do better and redefine modern men
151
@Hunter R. I'm sorry, but that's patently ridiculous. Men should change their biological composition so that society can remain being as prejudicial as it currently is? Why don't we alter society's perceptions of masculinity to be more accepting of those behaviours? That's what we've done traditionally and look how well it's worked, you're so self-hating you want men to change who we are at our core to appease a society that rewards women but punishes men for acting the way they're biologically predisposed to behave.
16
@Hunter R. Thanks for posting your perspective here in the comments. I am raising a young boy and I am more scared for him than if I was raising a girl because of the culture of not being able to show emotions. We are all human and the way our culture enforces the male stereotype is so damaging to kids and young adults psyches. PS You are going to get a lot of negative comments on this thread. Any article published on this topic brings out the craziest rants.... But thanks again for posting so honestly.
22
@Billy You act as though men would be fine if not for society punishing them. That's not true at all. Today, men are depressed, unemployed, and struggling because they are not embracing the modern world like women are. They don't ask for help nearly as often, they don't reach out and connect with others to express their concern and ask advice, and especially as they get older, as I have seen with relatives, they stop reaching out to friends.
Anecdotally, I've seen my mom call her close friends every week. My dad emails his one buddy every couple of months. He hides it, but my mom has expressed how he lonely he is without her. But he doesn't feel comfortable calling a guy friend just to talk.
I agree with you that masculinity inherently has some characteristics that I share and value. I think being independent, risk-taking and strong hold value. I also enjoy the physical benefits. I was a college athlete and have long appreciated the physical gifts that men have.
But what you're not understanding is that these "manly" characteristics have gone unfettered for too long. Men can be men, while also feeling empowered to have emotion, reach out for help, and embrace nature, love and "traditionally women" characteristics.
We need help men feel like they can both be masculine, but also be able to open up, show concern and care, and embrace characteristics that women long possess. These characteristics are incredibly valuable and will make for a better society for everyone.
61