Cuomo’s Risky L Train Fix

Typical Cuomo. He styles himself a protean genius in all matters, whether it's in nuclear engineering (Indian Point) or civil engineering (TZ Bridge and the Canarsie Tunnel) or economic development (Buffalo Billion, etc.). How could his "plan" to make repairs with chewing gum and duct tape possibly fail? Substituting political expediency over expertise. Very Trumian of Gov. Cuomo.

Prior to Hurricane Sandy the City spent hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade the electrical infrastructure in the tunnel only to have Hurricane Sandy floodwaters make most of it inoperable. Global Warming will ensure there will be another Hurricane Sandy, and when it comes, all the same electrical infrastructure in the tunnel will be inundated with saltwater and made inoperable once again unless a more permanent solution is engineered.

The L Train, and probably most of NYC's subway lines are doomed, anyway, actually. They will be submerged by future hurricanes, which given the pace of climate change are likely to ransack the City regularly (perhaps three or more times in a decade). If I were the Governor, I would be thinking of post subway transportation technologies because I think the chances are good that climate change will make our subways unsustainable in the near future.

The damage from Sandy was done more than six years ago. The US fought World War Ii in less than 4 years. Along the way there were major technologies developed and deployed in the war effort — at a time when the country had far less wealth. When government acts so slowly to clear citizen needs, i lose all confidence in the abity of government expanding what it does. This is especially the case for more complex and critical areas such as healthcare and reducing carbon emmissions or reducing poverty.

The transit system has been shortchanged by Governor Cuomo and other NYS politicos for many years in many ways. This L train plan is a new version of an old song. Mr. Bianco makes perfect sense, and as a former head of System Safety for NYCT, his opinion counts for a lot. Yes, commuters will be inconvenienced for months. We have had other situations where commuters had to endure rough situations like bridge closings one direction at a time. We do what we have to do and get used to it pretty fast. For once, just once, let's do it right the first time.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I travel by subway I'm keenly aware when the train is traveling through one of these underwater tunnels, of which there are about a dozen in the system and are anywhere from 50 to over 100 years old. The potential loss of life were one of these tunnels to fail catastrophically during a rush hour is almost unfathomable. And like Mr. Bianco points out, even during a minor failure, passenger emergency egress would be arduous at best. That said, if the Canarsie tunnels were closed completely, I find it incredulous that working on a 24/7 schedule the MTA wouldn't be able to accomplish the original re-hab plan in less than 15 months. Half that time sounds more reasonable. Another example is 14 months that the 168th 1 station is closed for now to replace **four elevators** 14 months for four elevators and other 'minor station rehab'. Amazing...

I am particularly taken by the author's points about the decision makers being long gone and the short term 'benefit' for the sake of 'expediency.' This is the picture of shortsightedness.

You could always send all New Yorkers who use the tunnel on an all-expenses-paid Caribbean vacation for the duration of the repairs. See? Problem solved . . .

I am a retired employee of NYC Transit and was around for the rebuilding of the Montague Tube. The major reasons for working under a complete closure at that time are no less true today. There will be a tremendous amount of dust thrown up during demolition, especially of the old concrete track ties and roadbed. All of this must be cleared prior to service resumptions. There is absolutely no guarantee that this will happen every morning in time for a punctual service resumption. Additionally, with all the cheering about fiber reinforced wrapping of the old tunnel structure and the racking of cables, I have seen no evidence that this has ever been done in the unique atmosphere of an under river subway tunnel. Lastly, it is important to note that the MTA’s adoption of new and untested techniques and equipment has not always turned out successfully.

MTA: "We will shut down the Canarsie tunnel for over a year for Sandy repairs" NYers: " "The MTA is ridiculous -- falling apart and decrepit, underfunded and not cared for by the State, doesn't care about NYers and its riders, and the hassle this will cause" Cuomo and MTA: "OK, now here's a plan that won't shut down L service" NYers: "The MTA is ridiculous -- falling apart and decrepit, underfunded etc....Now it doesn't care about our safety!" People need to make up their minds. Enough of this flip-flopping. I have no idea the extent of the damage and what it'll take to repair, but people cannot have it both ways.

Very easy to poke holes in the plans of others. So if you are so smart Carmen, what is your solution?

What about technology like the much longer BART tube underwater from San Francisco to Oakland? Leave the existing L running for now, and construct an entirely new tube that rests on the bottom of the East River. Or a little lower in a trench, if necessary due to shipping or currents.

We can't mess around with safety and we can't defer needed repairs. Better to do it properly now and endure the full shutdown than patch it together and put lives at risk. Our grandparents and great-grandparents endured WWII. We can endure a closed subway tunnel.

I don't have the expertise to form an opinion on the alternative repair plan, but I have to wonder whether the governor's judgement can be trusted. It was he who reportedly endangered construction workers by rushing the Tappan Zee Bridge replacement to completion so could ride across it in triumph before the last election. Then he named it after himself.

How do you think information crosses oceans ? Via cables lying on the bottom . And these cables are constructed to last for decades - thanks to modern material science,. If you can do that, you you can construct cables that hang on subway tunnel walls (cable racking) and will continue to function even in the event the tunnel should be flooded.

The MTA has been scaremongering for three years. In their pitch for a shutdown, I recall reading threats that the tunnel could collapse on a train, or that silica dust could endanger commuters and employees. Now Cuomo says he has a buzzer-beater solution, and don't worry about the details. I don't know what to think. The only thing I am sure of is that Cuomo and the MTA are corrupt to the marrow.. and the contractors, the unions and Cuomo himself will laugh all the way to the bank.

Politics will get us all killed. Should shut it down and do the work properly.

Mr. Bianco mentions normal hazards presented by underwater tubes. What he does not address in this piece is that the people in communities served by the L do not realize the hazards and delays that a partial shutdown will entail. This is probably because MTA and NYCTA officials have not made these points clearly. If I lived on the L line I would want the work to be completed as soon as possible, understanding that a partial shutdown would still be burdensome and potentially dangerous for customers. As has been mentioned in other articles, ongoing work will create a tremendous amount of dangerous dust that moving trains will churn up regardless of ventilation. Personnel will be on the roadbed during partial shutdown times, not only working, but ensuring that trains are moving safely. This creates hazards for them. And, using one tunnel for two-way traffic will require trains to take turns and delays will be horrendous. Work being done on a daily piecemeal basis will require a lot more time than a full shut down would. Why people refuse to consider surface transit a viable option for a safe and relatively quick renovation is beyond me.

I also believe that the safety issues need to be examined. What happens if a train catches fire and the fire ignites the wiring ? Will toxic products of combustion be released endangering both passengers and first responders ? The existing approach encases the wiring in concrete so that the wires won't be exposed to fire or other compromise. At minimum there should be some sort of fireproof shell to encase the wires in the tunnel instead of leaving them exposed.

It could not be more obvious that the safety, engineering, risk assessment questions have to be separate and fully independent from the political and financial cost side. Even this governor is astute enough to understand his potential legacy if he errs on the conservative side of safety as opposed to erring on the side of get-it-done-quickly. If the Governor is asking himself, what's the worst that could happen, what is he thiniking? If Mr. Cuomo lacks the political confidence to take a hit because doing it right will take longer than using the sortcuts, then he should not be the one making the call.

It could not be more obvious that this is just Cuomo's latest maneuver on his path to the presidency. Up until now, his models have been FDR and his father. Now he has added Donald Trump to the list. What made Trump a hero to many in New York and beyond was his asserting himself in the effort to renovate the ice skating rink in Central Park. A project that seemed to be dragging out endlessly was completed by the Donald in record time, seemingly proving that Trump knew how to get things done. Cuomo is hoping that the L train repair project will be his ice skating rink.

re long-term: with sea level projected to rise by more than a foot in the next thirty years a "permanent" solution will need to do much more than just have better housing for the cables. Why not make an affordable, practical tactical fix for now and also begin planning a long-term strategy for the whole city. Why make a hundred-year fix to a tunnel that may be unusable in 30 years?

Here's what I believe happened: As a recent article in the Times pointed out, Williamsburg is expecting 52 new buildings in 2019. Developers were freaking out at the prospect of having so many apartments being rented or sold for below-market rates, or even lying fallow because of the L train repairs, so they sought out civil engineers at Columbia for ANY possible alternative. Once they discovered one, they immediately contacted their stooge Cuomo and read him his lines. He could take all the credit for having saved the L, and they could continue their customary bloodsucking. They didn't bother with de Blasio, who is no less their lackey, because he was already so deeply committed to the original plan that to do an about face now would make him appear an even bigger fool than Cuomo has managed. It is no overstatement that real estate interests determine everything that happens in this town, and that especially includes the Amazon giveaway. Some day the full details of that con job will emerge and we'll find out developers were prominent at the negotiating table from its inception.

Its like somebody is thinking of running for president or something.

Having worked on a few major infrastructure projects, including a stint with MTA Capital Construction, I wholeheartedly agree with Ms. Bianco's assessment. The general populace has no idea the amount of effort that goes into planning,designing and executing a project of this magnitude. To change up years of planning in the upcoming months is ludicrous at best and downright dangerous at worse. It's less about which technology is best to be deployed, but balancing risk, costs, and minimize disruptions in the interests of the public. Cuomo is clearly posturing to look as a knight in shining armor,when he should be working with the MTA to make their plan happen.

If anything looks politically motivated, this does. If anyone believes this will cost less than what was originally proposed, is mistaken. Governor Cuomo does things which have positive political outcomes - studies were conducted for years - suddenly, he comes up with this miraculous idea - weekends and nights are now the alternative. I don't believe a word - it's only money - according to Forbes, the city has a record level of debt at $116 billion - a record level of unfunded pension liabilities at $185.5 billion - its currently running a $3.8 billion annual deficit, according to Scott Stringer, Comptroller. If the L Train repair estimate is $477 million - what's a few more hundred million if it incurs cost overruns - Governor Cuomo won't be publicizing that.

Mr. Bianco's infrastructure knowledge is helpful. The deduction is that the access-egress rescue distance, to any stranded train in the tube, is always less than a half mile, or .5 miles, from either end of the tube.

It seems to me that some engineering input would be more appropriate here. I don't have a problem with leaving damaged cabling in the boxes and fixing the boxes so they don't disintegrate and land on the tracks. It sure would make sense to replace all signal cables with fiber-optics, which should not be damaged by future flooding, and I would think the power cabling could be hardened against flooding as well. I'm sure there are folks working on these problems, since sea-level rise looks like it's going to be at the high end of current estimates. If the tunnel itself has structural problems, of course, shut it down immediately!

I lived in London as a graduate student from 1973-1976 and have traveled all the different Tube lines then and on subsequent visits. I never stopped to think about the cable runs that were up on the walls at about my height as I stood on the station platforms and that I could see running along the walls as my train traveled along to where I was headed until now, with this "sudden" realization that the L train tunnel work could employ this method. Ms. Bianco brings up a good point, but the question is why did no one, apparently, consider this hanging-cables idea, way back as a fix for the L train tunnel first got underway? What is so "new" and startling about this? If it was considered previously, why was it rejected in favor of the total shut-down? Or is this another of those Cuomo as savior knight things?

The writer is living in the past and fails to understand fiber reinforced composites and the benefits of the proposed solution. This is an industry I have worked in for more than 20 years and there is constant reluctance to use any new material even when there is an ample amount of evidence proving the solution is superior. FRP has been used successfully for more than 50 years. It is not new. FRP as a long term solution for the rehabilitation of concrete and masonry structures has been proven to be successful on multiple occasions. Before one criticizes a proposal, it would be better to state facts and not innuendo.

This makes sense. Cuomo is certainly more of a politician than anything else. It looks like one more effort to be the hero with DeBlasio the villain.

Carmen Bianco raises questions that need to be answered. As someone who infrequently uses the L train to get from Manhattan to Grand Street, I have seen how vital a transport it is, and can't imagine the discomfort and time loss that closing it down for 15 months would cause. Having said that, Ms. Bianco's points seem valid, and there should be a thorough impact assessment of the new "plan" proposed by the Governor.