The problem is that the Democrats have whipped themselves into such a frenzy of irrational hatred they can no longer tell right from wrong. All this hysterical nonsense about President Trump murdering the planet or George Bush stealing the 2000 election has serious consequences. Trump Derangement Syndrome makes people do things they might not otherwise do
4
Whatever happened to "when they go low, we go high"? It's harder work to go high--much harder--but consider what's at stake. This back-and-forth prevarication does mean that you win some and lose some, but if everyone, Republican and Democrat, is swimming in an ocean of lies, then what's at stake is democracy, one definition of which is the right to vote with an *informed* conscience, a habit of mind that utilizes facts and logic. You can't have that if someone's, anyone's dirty tricks leave everyone un- or ill-informed.
3
It's a brave new world. It's disturbing how something the nation's founders couldn't imagine would be far more perilous to the survivability of the United States than the typical end game tactics.
2
Slight problem. The article doesn't tell you that the reports relied on by Congress describing "the full dimensions of Russia's fraudulent use of social media" were written by the same group that pulled these tactics in AL.
And the "both sides are doing it" equivalence has the slight problem of no evidence given of Republicans doing anything similar.
Otherwise, yeah. Honest reporters should totally take these Democrats' word for it.
1
How silly for anybody to believe that whatever nonsense they see on a screen is necessarily true.
2
Without truth, you have nothing. There is no valid justification for this. Don’t fight dirty because the other side does so. Expose their lies and work for truth, otherwise the ground will come out from under all of us.
2
When Democratic operatives and politicians get caught cheating or lying, large numbers of Democratic voters wring their hands over their immorality. When the GOP cheats and lies, their voters don't care or even applaud them for it (remember the 'I'd rather be Russian than a Democrat' T-shirts?)
No matter how well Dems behave, Republicans will keep claiming that they are cheating and GOP voters will play the 'what about' accusation card, with or without grounds, whenever their own man is caught doing the dirty. This is clear enough evidence to me that Democrats are 'better' people than Republicans (that blue states are willing to keep paying to support red states provides still more evidence). But being a better person only provides a clean conscience and how well will that clean conscience serve you when your water is as dirty as Flint's? When you've been denied the medical treatment you need by your insurance company (or denied insurance altogether) and can't pay for it yourself?
I used to be all about taking the moral high road and will continue to do so in my personal life, but in politics? There is only one thing the GOP understands and that is power. Dems need to fight with every legal weapon available.
2
I'm not sure, but I can't remember the last time I read a NYT article that reported on Republican or Democratic "tactics" to win a Senate or any other race.
It's almost as if the NYT is trying to hold Democrats to a higher standard, like...they want to tie the hands of Democrats behind their backs.
What if Roy Moore had won? Would this story still have surfaced? Do you remember who Roy Moore is? What he stands for?
It's also suspect that the NYT is putting this all on one US vet, who actually served his country, by the name of Matt Osborne, and labeling him the nasty "P" word (for those of you not in the know, it's related to the "B" word - Bernie, for whom the NYT has unending bias against).
Thus progressives are to blame. For preventing Roy Moore from getting elected. You're welcome.
Republicans have gerrymandered districts (as have Democrats on a much smaller level). They have rigged the game for years. No legislation stops them because they have all the power. They seem to have connections to Russian oligarchs, corporate monopolies, and the richest people in the world.
Meanwhile, the divergence of wealth keeps expanding. Everyday citizens struggle, and the NYT is still reeling from its "Hillary has a 98% chance of winning" headlines hours before the election in 2016.
I'm not sure who the NYT represent anymore, but their political bend has done nothing to help our democracy. Osborne is a centrist in most countries. We are falling off a cliff to the right.
5
Regarding the many posts here that take a "pragmatic" view of fighting lies and smears with more lies and smears, because these are desperate times, and the high road just isn't working:
A quote from Robert Frost sums up my view. Though I think he was actually referring to something else, and historians know that Athens was far from Utopia, it makes a point beautifully.
"I'd rather perish as Athens than persist as Sparta."
2
Disinformation is inherently undemocratic. I'm waiting for Facebook to prohibit all sociopolitical postings.
2
Not all lies are the same, some are ruinous, hurtful and damaging, and some can be almost sweet. I told my mom she looked good the other day, when in fact her wig was off center and crooked.
Compare “Dry Alabama” to other false flags pushed by the conservative media recently, like Pizzagate, the John Podesta run child sex ring in the basement of the Pizzeria. Not only false in every way, but also so incendiary that it convinced a man to storm the business shooting guns attempting to free the children.
Many longtime democrats are expressing horror over the “Dry Alabama” tactic, but they are overreacting. Yes it was deceptive, but there are in fact lots of conservatives that have pushed to ban alcohol in Alabama. So much so, that there are -right now- several dry counties in the state.
Conservatives, this is a small very mild -almost quaint- dose of your own medicine. Horrified Democrats, get a little perspective.
3
The ends justify the means? Immoral, of course. -- Yet the police can lie when trying to extort an admission of wrongdoing from a suspect, or to force an innocent person to implicate friends and family. This is Lesson #1 in how government can lie with impunity. Is it any wonder some people take the lesson to heart? Power lies. If you win, it's not wrong.
I'm an outraged straight-ticket Democrat. Ends do not justify means. If I EVER during a campaign discover these tactics in use to benefit a candidate of my party, I won't vote for the candidate. Freedom isn't free. Sometimes it costs others' lives. Sometimes it costs money (taxes), and sometimes it costs the victory of our preferred candidate to enforce the standards we espouse.
3
It’s always the bad eggs on the fringes of the spectrum that give the rest a bad name, no matter which affiliation. Most of the general public fall within a broad center where dialogue and constructive debate can lead to a judicious outcome for the greater good.
Matt Osborne should be banned from all political activity. By his thinking, pretty much any immoral act can be justified as long as someone else does it first. I hope Mr. Osborne never gets another chance to do a 'morally imperative' act.
4
Very sad. This misinformation needs to stop; on all sides.
1
Why is anyone really surprised by this? When you get down to it - they are all cut from the same cloth. And it's never clean.
2
Of two minds on this one. The situation is as such that you literally have the GOP cheating via voter supression, russian collusion, and gerrymandering. How can the Democrats complete without cheating? That is a question for the ages. My Mom taught me, don't do anything you would feel uncomfortable explaining to my Mom.
1
The one thing I hope comes from this is that the Democrats stop complaining about dirty tricks.
3
The NYT remembered here to make the point that the funding of these disinformation campaigns were small relative to the $51 million spent on the race. Same argument applies to the few million spent by Russians in a multi billion dollar 2016 presidential campaign. Still, credit where credit is due, you at least published the story instead of burying it which shows some integrity. Frankly I don’t think any of this is a story (Russia or this one) but at least there’s some consistency of treatment evidenced here.
3
Disinformation/misinformation is an old old tradition in democracies. The only difference now is that it’s done online. It’s going to be impossible to disentangle the impact of this particular piece of meddling from all the other elements that influenced individual voters. It always has been. Mr. Jones election is legitimate.
But if Mr. Jones’ election is legitimate, so is Mr. Trump’s.
I’m waiting for Michelle Goldberg’s editorial quantifying the impact of the meddling on this particular election. But not too avidly. I suspect I will wait a long time.
5
Lets pretend to be Russian trolls influencing the election to make the Republican candidate look bad...
Who thought this was a good idea?!?
Its a small step now to think that perhaps some of the "Russians" helping Trump were also Democratic operatives.
Its going to be even easier to claim that any activity in the future is being run by rogue Democratic operatives.
2
The Russian government undermined US elections by feeding an unfortunate slice of Americans fake Facebook news on issues important to uneducated conservatives. Our president was elected because a preponderance of frustrated racist blue collar were encouraged by the Kremlin.
It is embarrassing that people are applauding the same tactics executed by our own citizens.
It’s easy for us as NY Times subscribers to shrug it off with a “shouldn’t get your news from unaccredited sources”, but the President’s very dumb base and most young social justice seeking liberals get their information from Facebook. This is a problem and the fix isn’t to increase fraudulent use of social media.
2
Liberal and smart here.
Not dogmatic.
100% against this kind of nonsense.
Good ideas, presented in plain speaking style wins.
4
"Yeah - but it's for a good cause - OUR cause!"
This would seem to be the nutshell-rationale many Dems/Liberals rally round.
Or, conversely: "We're better than that/them!"
With strong arguments on both sides, I think it's entirely legit for Dems to equivocate. But it's salient to point out, the GOP has given up that right - by virtue of their vastly superior propaganda acumen. And their unabashed rhino-hide on signing off on it. While many of them may not fully grasp the depravity of its myriad tentacles (like Vlad & his GRU-minions),
they don't seem to have many qualms with the results.
Too often, trying to stack up political imperatives vs. moral ones, is spurious, at best. In the shadowy D.C-cesspool of soft money, corporate lobbyists, and Donor-class $$, the crafting of insidious misinformation-campaigns is making the old standard - negative campaigns - look downright quaint. Gullible voters surely exist on both sides, but so do well-informed voters, who choose to look away. In the Dirty Tricks realm, the most insidious tactic is to overwhelm and exhaust voters. "They're ALL a bunch of crooks! Why bother voting?!"
BTW - I have never witnessed our Denigrator-in-Chief, (unless fed by a teleprompter,) take anything but the lowest-road. On any topic. Ever. Period. Sad.
4
I think the "Republicans do it, too" argument is apt when we're talking about violations of political norms where the victims are Republican politicians flouting the same norms. Nunes simply has no complaint if Schiff wants to play hardball on the Intelligence Committee, for instance. But the norm against lying isn't just a political norm, and the public are the victims who are being lied to. So I don't think the same reasoning works in this case. It is not, in general, morally permissible to pursue what you think would be a morally worthwhile goal by lying to people. Of course, it depends on how urgent your goal is, but narrow political advantage probably isn't sufficiently important.
2
Besides being morally unjustified, these techniques show how completely political consultants have driven the Democratic Party and the political process off the road. Developing and communicating innovative ideas and vision to solve political problems is not the same as a marketing campaign driven by reactive focus groups, polling, and paid astroturf enthusiasts. Glad that this story is being reported. I hope future political reporting calls out this kind of ideas packaging and focuses on issues instead of the day's talking points.
3
Sorry. But words like “ completely” and “100%” and “totally” are false absolutes.
Righteous high mindedness is in this case both foolish and naive.Feel bad about this, morally upset?
Then:
Vote in the people that will outlaw such behavior of any party....but these days that essentially means voting Democratic, Since working with Russians against our nation’s best interests seems acceptable and fine with the oligarchal GOP, fighting with fire until no fire is needed seems the most pragmatic option.
2
NYT .. Thank you for this good piece of journalism.
Russia does not have a patent on false propaganda .. all political parties play dirty games. Agreed ?
8
So, I'm starting to think there was never any Russian-Trump collusion either. The entire investigation is a spiteful waste of time. Terrible.
10
Interference in an election by a foreign power is illegal, period. Collusion or not, it is imperative that we find out the extent of foreign interference, and do everything in our power to stop it in the future.
If the freshman congressmen what to investigate Trump they would gain credibility by starting with this investigation first.
5
I am appalled if not totally surprised. This adds real heft to arguments that one party is as bad as the other that is always fed to a independents. I have as much or more disgust when this behavior supports a cause or person that I agree with as when we are the target. It is totally reprehensible.
12
Everyone should read Jaron Lanier’s “10 Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Acoounts Right Now.” Lanier explains with incredible specificity and urgency how and why this kind of thing will keep happening over and over again (until we stop paying attention to it, or Facebook et al. change their business models).
5
What is the difference between this and the stuff that is put in my mail box by candidates at election time?
3
We are becoming a dirt-bag nation on both sides, right and left. We need ethical statesmen as candidates and moral people as advocates. Pretty simple but unreachable without media support of moderate candidates.
7
In the election of 1800, Jefferson told everyone Adams was a hermaphrodite and Adams told everyone Jefferson was dead. So all this is really nothing new.
9
Hey, this has been the Republicans moto for a while and Trump just came to unmask them....
But that's what they are....
What? Do the Republicans and Trump want the Democrats to just turn the other cheek....
They open the can of worms, now prepare....
4
Fine, then just don’t act like you’re the good guys. Not that anyone bought that story anyway...
4
@Bill
The bar has been dropped to the ground... and my former Republican party seems fine with that.
Republicans have had the chance to redeem themselves... tell me what have they done??? NOTHING!
So, NO. The political party I used to belong haven't been the good guys for these past two years by ignoring FACTS... And the party of NO for the other past 8.
So, NO. I don't comply anymore...
1
The genie has been out of the bottle since before the '16 election and there's no putting it back in. It's now up to voters to become educated and use common sense. Confirm sources, use Politifact, FactCheck or even Snopes. But if you're lazy or gullible then you're going to be duped.
12
@Kanaka,
Also, do not rely on any one source for news; news media is just as corrupt and morally challenged as the politicians are.
4
Good, it's about [insert foul language here] time the Dems realized that going high while the Rs go low doesn't work! I agree whole-heartedly with Matt Osborne and his hope that such deceptive tactics would someday be banned, and I know full well that lowering yourself to the same level is no good at all. But it wins! And if you want to do anything, you've got to be the party in power. It's as simple as that.
12
Internet users beware. If you don’t want to be duped develop better critical reading skills.
8
Republicans in my state always run and fund "Third party" candidates, usually in supreme court races to divide democratic votes. Is this any different?
7
The only ones screaming about this are Republicans who wanted the Democrats to stand idly by while they played hardball politics. Well guess what. Two can play at that game.
12
Sometimes you must fight fire with fire.
While I wish this wasn’t necessary in our country, we cannot sit back while we are dragged back to the Middle Ages by the right wing extremists.
7
Politicians and their operatives have always lied, misled, and played dirty. Albeit to a lessor degree, this latest example proves that the Democrats are no different. An important underlying issue is the gullibility of the American voter. With the emphasis on budget cuts, rote learning and STEM in our educational system, combined with the rise of social media, with all its confirmation bias algorithms baked in, the ability to think critically is, unfortunately, in critically short supply. Nearly half of the electorate voted for a serial liar and a wanna be tin pot dictator. This latest dirty trick works, so expect to see more.
3
I'm extremely thankful that at least some progressive activists understand the modern media landscape and know how to exploit it for good. This was an excellent maneuver by Democrats, and I hope they employ more of such tactics in the future. If you disagree, you're tacitly supporting Republicans with your foolish and archaic notions of respectability politics.
16
Sounds good to me.
8
@Conrad
So does this mean we won't be subjected to the moralizing and lecturing of progressives? That would be refreshing.
9
@AACNY I would let them realpolitik all day if they would lay off the sanctimony. It's not like they're good at either one.
5
I am so proud. Go, Dems. In the gutter with the rats is the only way we will ever see the sun shine again. BAM!!!
7
Self respect consists of resisting the impulse to conform one's conduct to the lowest available example. Without that's, it's nothing but a headlong race to the bottom, in the bottomless pit of human depravity.
11
I hope that ethically corrupt or illegal practices like these are not more widespread among Democratic activities. I they are, it might be time to think of becoming an Independent.
10
hello? you too k this is an isolated instance?
1
Failure to register with a political party is no excuse not to vote. The only way the candidate of your choice will be elected is if you vote. Otherwise, your complaints justifiably fall on deaf ears.
my initial thought is, would fox news air a report like this? nuff said!
2
Come on, guys. Didn't you watch AOC's interview? Being "factually, semantically correct" hardly matters when you know that you're "morally right."
9
Ask me if I care! Not getting a child molester into office, to me, falls under the category of "by any means necessary".
10
I object to the NYTimes characterization of this event as compared to its headlining of Gen Flynn and Flynn Jr’s actions..
In the Alabama senatorial election, the NYTimes accuses “Democrats” (i.e. “Democrats Faked Online Push to Outlaw Alcohol in Alabama Race”), so it is besmirching the entire party and campaign. Also, what was alleged to be done was to ask people, on the urging of a non-existing group, to encourage the Republican candidate to support a ban on alcohol. The communication did not say the Republican candidate or Party advocated such a ban. There is no evidence that the Democratic Party endorsed the approach and no indication that the Democrats accused the Republican candidate of supporting such a ban.
In the presidential campaign, the son of General Flynn (of “Lock her up fame” and a trusted advisor of Donald Trump) and his son "used social media to spread fake news stories linking Mrs. Clinton to underage sex rings and other serious crimes, backed by no evidence, yet the NYTimes headline only says, "Trump Adviser Has Pushed Clinton Conspiracy Theories”. A more appropriately headline might have been, “Republicans Make Up Sick Sexual Abuse Stories”.
Vastly different stories and vastly different with vastly inconsistent headlining by the NYTimes.
10
Having read through this comment section extensively, I've noticed quite a number of posters- presumably "liberal" and Democratic Party-affiliated- justifying unethical and manipulative electoral campaign practices.
I've made various other objections to that position clear in some replies elsewhere in the thread. But there's another problem present that the supporters of these tactics should realize: the new disclosures about the Moore vs. Jones campaign may quite possibly have stymied the "Russiagate" investigation- or, at any rate, they're diminished the likelihood that Donald Trump and/or the Republican Party will suffer serious consequences from it.
After all, manipulation is manipulation. And if those tactics are employed by both Republican and Democratic Party campaigns, members of the voting public who aren't political partisans- like myself- might be forgiven for concluding that it all merely adds up to another dreary game of Gotcha.
12
BUT "what about" foreigners interfering in our elections? No matter how much cheating our political parties do in the name of achieving power, isn't it worse for foreigners to interfere? Foreign governments don't actually have constitutional rights in the United States.
@Scottilla Frankly, in most ways, I think the origin makes little or no difference.
Disinformation is disinformation, whether it's done by a stateside political campaign, a outfit funded by American "dark money", trolls using a shell server on American soil funded with foreign money, a troll farm in Romania, or an ad hoc bunch of alienated nihilists trolling to prove that they're smarter than the people who swallow their bait.
It also needs to be understood that Americans have been influencing political campaigns and candidacies in foreign countries for decades- including in Russia. That's been openly admitted, even bragged about, by the people involved in it. A history that makes the current complaints about Russian interference ring a bit hollow.
The ignorance and indiligence of voters has been exploited for centuries. The Internet didn't invent that. In fact, it offers more effective tools to counteract it than have ever been available before.
The more serious problem is unaccountable funding of American political campaigns from overseas. It's supposedly illegal, but in reality it's never been successfully curbed. (The first allegation I ever read about it was in the 1986 book Inside The League, by Anderson & Anderson, p. 156-176- the Guatemalan extreme right wing funding the Reagan campaign. https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-YAnJOkt3G0B4uEGh/Scott+&+Jon+Lee+Anderson+-+Inside+the+League+(1986)_djvu.txt )
Citizens United has made all of that much worse, of course.
I would love to hear a statement from the leadership of the Democratic Party about Progressives lying to the public. Is this something we're going to have to worry about now?
8
The Federal Election Commission should go after all people who mess with elections. Including these folks, trolls, and misinformation at a national level from outlets such as Fox News.
FB should face stiff fines.
7
There’s a lot of hand-wringing by “progressives” in these comments, and to that I would say: your worries about “purity” got us here, with a corrupt, criminal president selling your country out to autocrats and your own conservative extremists. Would Hilary have been worse? No. A million times, no.
This, to me, is simply an example of Democrats waking up and finally fighting fire with fire. You’re not in a knife fight with the other side—they’re wielding sickening amounts of sometimes illegal money and breaking rules to suit them and gain advantage—and it doesn’t matter that the majority of Americans favour your public policies over the other side’s. Republicans are perfectly happy to cheat swaths of voters out of the franchise, or gerrymander your electoral advantages down to nothing. WAKE UP.
They will win out if you don’t do something to stop them...and then your country will look so different to you, all this hand-wringing will seem perfectly quaint and fatally misplaced.
6
"the Facebook page appeared to be the work of Baptist teetotalers" that should tip anyone off this is a fake.
4
Glad Dems are finally aggressively engaged in value added tactics that will allow them to fight against a party that is eternally cheating
4
If they bring a knife, you bring a gun. We’re not playing by any rules anymore. And it is an existential fight to regain a democracy in this country. I don’t like it, but here we are.
4
@John Murphy,
You are not describing democracy, John Murphy, ever heard of the Hatfields and the McCoys or civil war?
6
JRS. Where do you think we are right now?
1
@John Murphy
Oh Please. That is ridiculous.
Use the law to stop this stuff, not join in. Good God.
15
People who insist that you fight queenbury rules while the other side fights prison rules are people who had no intention of fighting to begin with. They just relish the self-satisfaction from whatever self-conceived moral high ground they stand on. So I have no moral objection to these tactics. The pearl clutchers can go jump off off a bridge. I'm sure their sense of moral self-satisfaction will let them walk on water.
However, on a practical level, this may backfire and blow up in the Democrats' faces. It's like when one school kid sneaks a punch at another kid. The second kid punches back, and inevitably that's the punch the teacher sees. It doesn't matter the second kid said the first kid started it. The first kid will just smile like he has a halo around his head.
The Democrats are the second ones to do it, but they are doing it after the world is starting to get wise to these tactics. That means they are made to look like the bad guys, while those who did it first act like they have a halo around their heads. This happened with raising big corporate money, and it'll happen with these social media tactics.
3
So devising and implementing a disinformation campaign is ok as long as it’s democrats duping Americans and not Russians. They defend their aping of Russian dirty tricks by claiming “that neither law nor regulations set any clear limits on social media activity in elections”. If that’s true perhaps they can explain what law the Russians broke. Better yet perhaps they can enlighten us with legislation they support to prevent it from impacting future elections. They won’t of course because it worked.
It is encouraging that the the scam has finally been exposed by the NY Times. It’s discouraging that it happened only after it had its intended affect.
8
@tim k I believe that the Constitution states that a foreign power cannot meddle with an American election.
@Lionel Broderick
Is foreign power required to follow US Constitution?
2
@Lionel Broderick Really? I have read the Constitution repeatedly and would love to know where that is.
2
Give us a break. The GOP has been doing much worse since Nixon's Southern Strategy, the Bush campaigns with the Wille Horton ads, the Obama birth certificate fiasco, and I would vouchsafe to say, Republicans taught Putin some of the dirtier tricks in his assaults on America. I betcha the source for this info is Jeff Sessions who has said he wants his old Senate seat back.
5
Democrats can (and usually do) claim to be more moral than Republicans. However, an increasing number justify actions like these on the ground that they're no worse than Republicans.
Fine. Whatever. However, they can't do *both* (which will not stop them from trying, though).
7
Matt Osbourne (and anyone supporting deceptive methods),
You have done a great deal of damage.
You have made it harder to discern why
our progressive politics lead to a healthier republic.
You have provided a massive fig-leaf to the ugly republican and russian tactics that handed us Trump-- by making it appear that 'hey, everybody does it.'
You have done something very dangerous to what semblance we have left of a democracy: There is a clear choice between the politics of fear and greed and the politics of hope and justice. Your actions have made that distinction less clear for some.
Please find new work far, far away from the electoral process and any other arena where moral clarity is called for.
8
The Russian government did the same thing to the entire country in our 2016 presidential election and the GOP did nothing about it. (Actually, the Kremlin is still at it.)
Maybe the Republicans will get religion now.
1
As a Democrat - I deplore these tactics. That's it. Simple.
11
A lot of people in Hoboken are now suspicious that the sheik mayor did the same kind of thing. Right before he was elected, leaflets went out saying that he was a terrorist. It sparked outrage among white women in the town and apparently they went out in force to get him elected in order to counter racism. There are now talks that it was someone within his campaign that put out the leaflets.
5
@Alejandra
We hear a lot about how "ignorant" republican voters are. I'll be nice and call democratic voters "gullible."
4
I can’t condone this, but haven’t the progressives simply taken a page straight from the GOP playbook? Repubs can hardly wag fingers or complain, especially when we have Trump in office telling dozens of whoppers a day.
3
I see this as yet another example of how our two-party system is failing America. We should either demand better or admit we accept the built-in corruption in our systems.
2
The progressives like to act as though they take the the moral high ground. More often, unfortunately, it's just their moral high horse.
9
@AACNY - Whether or not progressives have the high ground, it's indisputable that the republicans have the low.
3
@jr
No, what's indisputable is that progressives believe only they have morals.
4
Politics has always been a game of deception.
People who think of it as some moral enterprise infused with the best traits of the American nation are sadly mistaken. It's all trickery and conniving manipulators seeking self-aggrandizement no matter which side of the political aisle you're looking at.
Usage of these "fake" accounts are just the latest development in the politico's handbook and part of me looks forward to seeing how they'll be used in the future.
Trust no one, question everything, and believe in nothing except your own well-being.
5
@LR - Well said. And of course the flip side of this is that there's never a shortage of gullible fools ready to buy into all the lies, deception, distortion, and empty promises. Sadly, it's hard to be hopeful that this will ever change.
1
Lots of commenters here seem to feel that a pragmatic approach to political dirty tricks is necessary to defeat the red menace (same words, new meaning). This reminds me of a few time honored quotes.
"The end justifies the means." (modernized as the end justifies the memes).
"Do as I say, not as I do."
If anyone was influenced by these operations, it wouldn't be wise to count on their votes in the future.
"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."
If we are going to decry the tactics of demonizing, false flagging, and outright lying about opponents, it behooves us not to employ the tactics we're speaking out against.
I guess you can frame this in terms of morality – which can be viewed as relative. I prefer to look at it in terms of trust. If I'm shown to be a liar, I can hardly expect to be believed even when I'm not crying wolf.
Better to focus on voter suppression in Alabama. I'm sure there must be some.
6
Would any of these FB facilitated tactics have been as successful if there were no FB? If not, it's time to take some serious action against that site. And not be satisfied that FB will police its site. They have a conflict of interest. Taking FB out of the equation will also make the dirty tricksters have to work that much harder.
3
Hasn't anyone ever told Mr. Osborne that two wrongs don't make a right?
5
So like last time:
1) I am not a Republican
2) I did not vote for Trump
3) I think Moore is a fool
I can not believe that any Journalistic organization: much less the Times is defending this behavior.
These fake operations (first being the Russian support of more) tricked your fellow journalists into writing false articles.
Yet you call this an "experiment" and allow "well everybody does it" excuses. If everybody does it it should be very easy to find a Republican (or Libertarian or Green) example. Show me one.
This is corruption at it's worst when Russian does it and when any political party does it. That you fail to condemn this behavior in the strongest language makes me very sad.
That you would continue to put forth the idea that $100,000 is not an incredible amount to spend on a social media campaign (clearly documented it the previous articles comments) is just astonishing. Yes, you could publish the quote before but you should also set it in perspective.
"Given Mr. Jones’s slender margin of victory — about 22,000 votes, out of more than 1.3 million — it is hard to say for sure that Dry Alabama had no impact. But many other independent efforts were at play on both sides, and the amount spent on the two false flag projects was relatively tiny in a race that cost at least $51 million, including the primaries."
Sad day for any Journalistic organization.
6
@Bob
I chuckled when I saw the NYT word, "Fakery", in the print headline. If the case didn't involve progressives, the NYT would have used a very different word.
It's reminiscent of when the NYT described Obama's "Lie of the Year" as his "misspeaking." This is why progressives have so little credibility. They refuse to own their own behavior.
5
As a liberal Democrat who is pleased with the outcome of that election, I still dislike when Democrats pull such tricks. We're supposed to be above those sorts of dirty tricks. I know the Republicans are doing it all the time, but if we can't win with honest efforts we're just as bad as them.
3
@Nova yos Galan. All the time? Like when?
1
Consider this alternate wording and see if it isn't less provocative and more accurate:
"As a liberal Democrat who is pleased with the outcome of that election, I still dislike when SOME Democrats pull such tricks. We're supposed to be above those sorts of dirty tricks. I know MANY Republicans are doing it all the time, but if we can't win with honest efforts we're just as bad as them."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/politics/alabama-senate-facebook-roy-moore.html
OK, so it was the Dems pushing the false Russian narrative and not the Russians. Mr. Mueller: Will you look into this please!
5
All legal, baby. Notice all of the pearl clutching when Democrats and their supporters bring a gun to a gun fight.
All legal, much of it a result of Citizen's United.
Remember, money is speech.
Keeping donors' names secret is speech.
It is time for Democrats to stop fighting with one hand tied behind their back, as Mr. Osborne states in the article.
But, please, spare me the fake outrage. There IS gambling going on in Las Vegas and sex for money exchanged in brothels, too.
4
Federal Election Laws need to be updated to include social media and tech distribution channels in general.
One rule, whatever the medium, should be to mandate clearly identifying the organizations or individuals paying for and placing the ads and messaging (Yes, PR Firms and AD Agencies). Where possible it should include a link to their profile or website.
5
I simply can not support this behavior. I don’t care if the other side is doing it. Social media is becoming the Achilles heel of democracy and what we should be doing from a regulatory and personal standpoint is working to prevent this kind of abuse.
6
This piece reminds me of the very first newspaper report of Watergate brake in...
1
While the actors here have been labels Democrats, it doesn't seem like they are officially affiliated with the Democratic Party. This distinction seems central, and yet is quite understated.
Not to make excusses, as I am a progressive Democrat and find Roy Moore appalling, but shouldn't articles about misinformation be exceedingly accurate?
1
@WildFlowerSeed - kind of like how Richard Steele of Fusion GPS might not support the Democrats, he was just paid by them.
2
Doing this is morally wrong. Deceiving people to get them to vote a particular way is wrong.
Doing this is politically stupid because it undermines the credibility of progressives and Democrats, exactly the people it was supposedly trying to help.
Doing this is dangerous because it undermines democracy. An informed electorate needs to make informed choices and if *all* sources of information become suspect then that cannot happen and we are on our way to an authoritarian state.
5
GWB's campaign (in)famously put flyers on car windshields spreading the most awful lies about John McCain, including about his adopted daughter.
I'm afraid Mr. Osborne is correct, unilateral disarmament is foolish!
1
Could it be then “The Appearances of Russian Collusion” was manufactured by the Democratic activists? Just like as it was in the Alabama Senatorial election? Therefore, is that the reason why the Mueller investigation is having a hard time getting to the bottom─ after all the months of inquisition and millions of tax-payer money spent?
5
Ask any Republican, dirty social media tricks don't work, even if Russians do it.
This is nothing but race to bottom and end of democracy as we know it.
4
But at the very least, I'm glad to see the NYTimes covering this. Thanks for small favors.
3
For those that keep comparing to allied bombing in WW II, I disagree. The initial thought is to fight fire with fire and it would appear that the Democrats are frequently beaten by lies from the right. I think the Democrats need to be tougher and focus on their platform and issues and not get sucked into the swamp. If there are attacks, they should be directed at the fake news organizations such as FOX. NYTimes, WAPO, CNN and others treat FOX as if they are colleagues and they are not. While it is true that some of the day time news is legitimate there is an under current of propaganda that ties in directly to the White House. To a lessor degree CNN tries to offset the Sean Hannity challenge with Rachel Maddow. That is a terrible idea. Spend the time and the money proving beyond a shadow of a doubt what FOX does. Break up the FOX monopoly and force honest reporting. This is where the focus should be. Getting caught in a lying campaign to stop an alleged pedophile is wrong. Fight with facts, go after Roy Moore's political agenda. The other way to fight is to be fund money to offset the lies in near real time. Newt Gingrich started the current politics of lies and hate. Spend the money exposing the lies, force immediate retractions in FOX news and retract mistakes in left leaning publishing which happens at a far higher rate then anything on the right. You can do all this and still take a tough stance on issues.
Whatever happened to taking the moral high ground? Is being fair and civil no longer acceptable in politics?
This act on behalf of Democrats is revolting, to say the least. It merely helps to strengthen one's convictions that neither they nor the GOP are worth taking seriously.
3
I'm all for moral High ground, but what do you do when a large percentage of the populace do not understand the ways in which they can be manipulated, nor would ever be willing to admit that they were. Besides providing content reeking of propaganda, Fox News has employed trolls to stir up conflict in forums, just like the Russians. Conservative bots are rampant.
I've reached a point where every time I make a reply to someone else's comment, I later wonder if I've been manipulated into doing so buy a computer algorithm or paid troll.
So yes, I think we should fight fire with fire, because it's clear the left has mostly been losing this battle, and if things continue, our democracy may be lost.
I detest the deception.
I'm also curious: What do the readers (who've brushed-off the efficacy of this type of social media campaigning from foreign governments on unduly influencing election results) have to say?
2
This illustrates that political dirty tricks are not strictly associated with one party - The Democratic National Committee favored Hillary Clinton and took actions that favored her - a dirty trick within their own ranks. Unfortunately social media, and people's willingness to buy into any post they see is a cancer not only on politics, but on society. The only social media platform I use is Facebook, mainly to stay in touch with some family and friends. I do not read political postings, I do not "forward if you agree" - I do not get my news from social media. I do not, and will never get, a Twitter account, an Instagram account or any other accounts. Most of what you see posted is probably false, exaggerated or created out of thin air and then forwarded by people because the posts favor their world view. I see this only getting worse because people want to believe things that prop up their own beliefs - it's human nature. While this story is disappointing, anyone who really believes that the only ones engaging in deception on social media belong to the Republican Party is going to proven wrong - as this story shows.
2
I'm done with both parties.
4
Prohibition is still the law in over 100 counties in the USA.
Alcohol is an addictive drug that causes impairment of the brain and destroys society.
I am happy to have it banned.
3
Deception will not make us better.
1
Shame on these Democrats/liberals. I think they do damage to the cause.
On the other hand, it is ironic that they put Alabamans in a position of “Pursue underage women all you want, but don’t take my booze away” and that was considered a necessary straategy.
1
The DNC hired Fusion GPS to do this in the 2016 national election. They also conspired to deprive Sanders of the nomination. The DNC and DLC have become criminal organizations. Time to clean house, fellow Democrats!
5
Sorry, but much ado about very little. When the level of egregious behavior from our administration exceeds any ever seen before, when we have a president who uses his bully pulpit to denigrate the opposition party daily, when we have blatant lies from him and his party, when we have voter suppression and gerrymandering, it is difficult to get judgmental and outraged over these attempts to keep Roy Moore out of office.
1
This is absolutely disgusting, let alone, actually dangerous. Spreading false information to demonize another group and to fuel an "us versus them" narrative has led to horrible violence in the past and can be expected to do so again. Think mob violence. Think massacres. Think lynching. All who participate in such tactics are playing with fire and when it goes up, we are all going to burn. I am disgusted. I am ashamed. How dare those who claim represent us, Dem or Rep, stoop to such despicable behavior! I thought I was a "progressive Dem", but if this is what it means, count me out.
4
Reprehensible. When you stoop to their level you become their equal. I want to be better than that. Let's not forget we should all strive for truth, honesty. If the other side uses torture, does that mean we should do same?
7
We lost a street fight in 2016 because we were fighting by the Marquess of Queensberry Rules while the other side gouged eyes and bit off fingers.
Look where/who that got us.
And I won't even get into the Russian participation thing.
We have to quit pretending this an honorable competition between honorable parties. It isn't.
We lost the White House. We lost the Supreme Court. We lost the country.
We need them all back by whatever means possible and THEN we can invite the other guys for tea and crumpets right after November, 2020.
If not sooner.
5
This article displays the need to regulate FaceBook as a public utility. It's out of control.
@Perry white
Careful what you wish for. These large companies might actually desire "oversight" because (a) they know they can get around regulations and (b) it makes it harder for competitors.
2
I don't see this working very well with the suburban, middle-class Alabama voters the Democrats needed to turn to elect Doug Jones. These would be people sophisticated enough to know that "dry" campaigns are local and state issues, not federal. In any case it wouldn't alarm them too much.
This almost seems like the kind of thing an arrogant Yankee would cook up trying to bamboozle those primitive rustics in flyover states. In other words, the kind of clueless thing that the target audience laughs at and immediately sees as inauthentic.
Dirty tricks or not, I hope this isn't the brain trust we have in the Democratic party. A bunch of too-clever-by-half liberals who think everyone else in the country is an idiot. Get some local talent.
As for the "going low" aspect...well, this is as old as dirt in politics and guess what the Democrats were much, much better at it than the Republicans were back in the day. If you want a new New Deal, you need a new New Deal coalition, which means getting in a big tent with people you don't like and playing politics to win.
3
Why is there all this false pearl clutching? Conservatives have always fought to lower America into a cesspool with dirty and often illegal tactics.
Oh, the had to taste a small dose of their own medicine and hate it - that's the only reason conservatives are making noise.
6
oh you do-gooder dems! you are so sweet and so justified! So righteous that you'd never cut in line, always wait your turn at a 4 way, and let the little old ladies have your bus seat.. As for me, i say play the game. Almost all of my family believes the junk 'news' on fbook as if it were gospel, so... move the piece of cheese and help these folks make the right decision until we can get some adults back at the helm please.
2
So it's A-OK for republicans to suppress the vote and gerrymander districts everywhere and support every kind of racist white supremacist hate known to man, but God forbid Democrats should engage in the kind of high jinks that in fact do fairly represent a segment of the republican base.
3
I must say it's about time we see this sort of dirty tricks applied against the right wing. It's interesting to see all the hand wringing and phony moral posturing. I think that deep down everyone clutching their pearls over what are pretty standard tactics for the better part of the last 50 years really show their priorities. There's no real policy difference for them but rather they see politics as a parlour game and the parties as brands.
So the fact that the GOP winning regularly means death by austerity for many poorer people directly harmed by their policies isn't the real problem, it's a lack of civility towards the very same monsters.
I mean honestly, i feel that their response to the Holocaust would easily be "well doesn't bombing Germany make us just like them."
Tactics can matter for sure, but only depending on what they are in service of, and that second part is what the average moderate has no concept of. They have no morals, just a worship of process and norms. If we put kids in cages, it's find as long as we use our inside voices and reach across the aisle. Bombing weddings in Yemen is ok as long as the president asks congress first so they can readily ok a triple tap strike, the forced austerity that actually kills citizens is fine because it's "getting things done."
People actively harmed by the GOP don't care at all about civility. The Democrats needs more fighters, not Chamberlains offering "peace in our time."
3
It is so dispiriting to see Dems doing this.
Recently, I was asked to take a survey by a neutral-sounding organization that I tracked down to the far right. Their mission statement (not included in the survey, I had to track them across several different websites to get to the perps) was to find Democratic voters who might feel strongly enough about one issue to vote Republican. Then they'd target such voters within social media with great precision.
No surprise, while I felt strongly about the issue, I was not on their side. Still, I wonder how many people are turned this way and not knowing who the targeters are.
3
If they're guilty, nail them. I don't care what their party affiliation is.
10
All this goes to remind us all that when it comes to political tactics, neither party ever, ever takes a moral high ground. They are each capable of using, and do use, sleazy, underhanded, misleading, and marginally legal methods to defeat their opponents. At the core, the parties are no different after all. When it comes to winning they don’t hesitate to be despicable - both of them.
I write this to remind all of who have the delusion that their party is the one which upholds principle and morality. That is a joke. Don’t be a fool, and never for a moment believe that your party really cares for you. When it comes to political expediency, anyone can be sacrificed.
That is the real reason we have a shutdown. Both parties want only to win, and gladly abandon the welfare of the people in doing so.
5
So here's the plan. Get Russia-backed illegitimate president out of the White House, and crack-down on unethical practices by political operatives.
wait. dems created "fake news". they funneled the cash to pay for it through a company headed up by a guy named Demitri. and all you can do is criticize trump for Russian interference. are you kidding?
4
OK. You start.
1
Maybe it is time to only allow ads that are the words of the candidates. All of the other baloney just clouds what is going on. The print media news and TV news can do their jobs, but, ads should only be the candidates’ own words.
I'm so and so and I endorse this ad?
1
Compared to bringing in Russian hackers to destroy a Democratic candidate's campaign this is peanuts.
The "dry parties" have been hoaxes in other parts of the South. Hodding Carter published a story on the Dry Party of Mississippi some years ago. It turns out the head of the party was a bootlegger and an alcoholic. Dry party conventions were boozy affairs.
I have heard of Republicans in one state objecting to new Casinos in one state to improve Casino business in another.
Politics have always been an ugly, even amoral affair.
1
wait. didnt the Russian "hacking" bring to light the email evidence of collusion between hrc and the dnc to get Bernie out of the election? which when made public, neither hrc or dnc made any attempt to deny the truth of this evidence? I seem to remember that those were the actual facts about "Russian hacking". and btw, how is that investigation into hrc/dnc going?
4
What you describe is immoral, not amoral....
There is no moral imperative to do whatever it takes. There is a moral imperative to be honest and decent and win fair and square or not at all.
6
So Matt Osborne lines up well with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who believes if it the moral thing to do truth and facts should not get in the way.
7
AOC will shoot herself in the foot any day now. she alr eww Andy came out in an interview and said, "yes, trump is racist. no question"
5
If this has anything to do with morality, which is debatable, then this is how Democrats should view such tactics: when Republicans win they imperil all of us. They attack the middle and lower classes of income. They attack our environment. They attack financial regulations. They throw over a trillion dollars at corporate America and wealthy Americans. And they stand behind the most disgusting president we've ever had, by far. Who, by the way, is the most immoral person in America. In 1861, Americans began killing each other on a very large scale because we disagreed. Was that immoral? No. Stupid, but not immoral. Today we are at a different but very similar crossroad. Trump and the Republican Party have lied so successfully to average Americans that they'll believe anything. So, how do Democrats fight such tactics? Fight fire with fire. There's nothing immoral about that. I've read naive comments to this article where the author claims that Trump is our chance to take the moral high-ground. Guess what? Nobody who voted for Trump cares if he's immoral. They know he's immoral and they love him. So, carry on Democrats. We must win. Losing and having the "moral high ground" won't save America from these lying Republican thieves.
3
How can you argue that Republicans uniquely imperil our democracy while at the same time erasing any ethical difference between the two?
3
Classic argument that the ends justify the means. Wrong and perilous to the future of our country.
2
so if you, as a dem, feel it is moral to employ the same "immoral" tactics, does not that make you equally as "immoral" as your far right conservatives? and if you can actually answer yes, then that's the proof for all to see that you're exactly the same as them and equally culpable. by your own logic.
3
Initially the premise was that Trump was leading the race to the political bottom. As this, and others like it come out, it makes you wonder who really started it. Methinks Democrats may be protesting too much about Trump and the Russians - they are just as guilty and hope no one exposes them. Hopefully the Times will pursue potential wrongdoing by both Parties with equal vigor. To restore credibility to an electoral process when both Parties are destroying it - that would be a triumph of journalism to be proud of
4
One party has to be the party of ethics and I am fairly certain it wont be the Republicans. This was a stupid decision and these people should stop. Disgusting. No one should peddle false or misleading information. Stop it.
2
@M And what in the 191 year history of the Democratic Party makes you think they're going to start being the party of ethics?
4
Republican candidates regularly falsely claim service in the U.S. military, and the US Supreme Court has ruled that this is free speech. So I can hardly fault the Democrats for using Republican tactics, which have helped Republicans.
The only politician I can think of who’s been guilty of this is Richard bluementhal (D) from Connecticut.....
2
Don't we deserve a citation on this ruling?
And if one party decides to roll in the mud, shall we, too, demean ourselves? Or might we find a more noble and enlightened path to truth and in the process, become true leaders of our people?
1
Where are all the leftists that crucified Trump for the non-disclosure pacts he got from those 2 fine ladies?. The President can claim marital excuses for those pacts but the Democrats apparently did it only for the Jones campaign. Republicans/Democrats are both dirty I'm sure.
3
After what the GOP had done since Watergate, it's hard for me to start clutching pearls over this.
Yes, two wrongs don't make a right, but I don't care.
1
Yes, it is hard, but if, by taking the higher ground, can we by counter-example demonstrate their wrongness?
3
So, progs, riddle me this. How is this different from the NY TImes and other MSM outlets pushing the Russian-Trump collusion story WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE?
I know the left wants to believe it. And the progressive mouth pieces want to believe it. But where is the evidence. When asked this question, dems just say, wait for Mueller and you'll see you big mean nasty Trump supporter.
But alas. This investigation from the FBI and Mueller as been chugging along for 2.5 years (or more). And not a single dollop of evidence has been produced that there was any collusion whatsoever. I personally don't find it any different for the progs to push the Russian collusion story as if it were a known truth than this sad little affair. The left isn't pushing the collusion story because they are appalled by it. They've been playing dirty politics as far back as I can remember. The collusion story (initiated by the Obama admin and FBI for political purposes) has been used to undermine the Trump admin since his inauguration. But hey, who cares. All is fair in love and war.
If you want clean politics, you better include the news media as well.
Or perhaps we can all just agree that politicians and their avid supporters are not trustworthy. Period. Regardless of whose side they are on. And just accept that they'll do whatever it takes to win. And accept that all media outlets push their partisan agenda. Truth is simply collateral damage.
6
@ralphie--recalling the facts over the "Russian hacking", it was this hacking that produced the email evidence of collusion between hrc and Bernie to get Bernie out of the election process. when this email evidence was made public, neither hrc or dnc denied it. but, what is the current status of that investigation? oh wait, there is no investigation into that. hmmm
3
It is wrong for anyone to put lies on Facebook and mislead the public. Oops - Donald Trump would have to apologize for lying. If both parties wish to create legislation given the reality of media TODAY, then fine. Otherwise - we'll trade you Jones for Trump. Both can leave office for dirty politics. Oh yeah, a few others too. Remember when lies were spread about McCain's daughter by Bush's campaign? And Swift Boats? The list goes on. Create laws to put these people in jail with a long statute of limitations. If it's not a felony forget it. It's been going on since the feud between Adams and Jefferson.
Lol. Fodder for the crackpot Republicans. Who cares? When we have a president installed by the NRA, dark money and an antiquated electoral college. And of course the Russians. Lol. The better man won. Who needs a pedophile in congress?
To these Democrats; You have become everything that your political opponent is. We don’t want you and we don’t need you. Leave.
8
Not quite everything. They are deceivers, but they’re not bigots.
This kind of behavior is lowdown and disgusting no matter who does it. Thank goodness that I don't rely on Facebook for my news and that I question everything I do read from any source.
3
In today's net world, why would any progressive politician or consultant resort to such deception? If nothing else, they should know that the risk of quick, vast exposure far outweighs the supposed advantage. Rule: don't resort to Machiavellian tactics--deceit, cover-ups, casuistical excuses. Let the issue at hand speak for itself and play fair. BTW, Catholic Church, this applies to you too.
2
Were the accusations of sexual misbehavior against Roy Moore also a false flag operation? Those accusations did not surface in prior elections or when he was a very controversial judge.
5
Not that I agree with those tactics -- but one thing to consider:
they only really work if the purported claims seem at least
somewhat plausible for the targeted candidate.
Moore was so far out there a lot of pretty crazy things would
have stuck to him that would not have been believed for
other candidates.
What I can't understand is why they thought a dry campaign would have hurt Moore in Alabama.
2
Would be interesting to know how many actual signatures the "petition" got as opposed to engagements. I suspect not very many, even in Alabama where I live these days. This was clearly directed at the old time, Bob Jones crowd of non-dancing, racial purist knuckle draggers that are nearing extinction even here. If you looked carefully, however, there was a tell. The word "Bible" was not capitalized. Would never happen with someone who actually held those views.
1
As a long-time progressive, long-time Democratic supporter: I absolutely support efforts like this, at this time.
The proven facts are that too many Republicans will DO ANYTHING to win an election, including conspiring with a foreign enemy, disenfranchising millions of voters through extreme partisan redistricting, voter roll purges and ID laws, and repeatedly lying to millions via Faux News and more.
Until a majority of Republicans wants to uphold and reform current election laws, on a bipartisanship basis, and comply with past norms (e.g., fair redistricting), it is naive, foolishness to unilaterally disarm.
2
This just makes some think the Democrats are behind the Russian interference. Maybe they are??
4
So just how did trump win the election gaming the electoral college?
These are not ‘progressive’ Democrats. These are cheaters. There is nothing progressive about misleading voters.
5
This is a perfect example of why democrats should NOT listen to Holder or anyone else who believes that, "When they go low, we kick them." You cannot claim the moral high ground and present yourselves as a bulwark against voter suppression, unchecked executive power, etc., if you engage in voter fraud. You sully the credibility of fellow democrats who are actually trying to do the right thing. You add fuel to the fire of "fake news" hysteria. Incredibly stupid move.
13
For those who support this, I am sure Donald Trump fans thank you for validating his claims that the Democrats are behind "fake news" and distracting from the moral legitimacy of those who oppose all that Trump stands for -- starting with the fact his an immoral liar willing to do anything to get his way. At minimum, those who support operations like this share much of the responsibility for setting the stage for Trump to come to power by promoting the impression that Democrats "do the same thing." Shame on each of you.
6
This is a sad state of affairs. I thought we had an understanding in the U.S., where our politicians would at least have the decency to lie to us directly.
2
This is the kind of thing that adds fuel to the Alabamian hate for Democrats. As a Democrat in Alabama, I worked hard to elect Doug Jones. We don’t need these tactics to sully the grassroots effort here. Maybe it’s the rampant corruption in our state that makes it seem like subterfuge from a progressive would be welcome here. It’s not.
4
If your going to censor political speech on social media you'll need support from both parties' constituents. It can't be seen as only affecting one side. To get people to give up first amendment rights requires some consensus building. This is what the times and other legacy media are doing right now.
Who knows what you'll read out there without their guidance? You need properly veted and framed propaganda whether you know it or not.
1
You know, it wasn't okay and still isn't okay when Republicans did this sort of thing or when the Russians supported the Republicans with this sort of thing. Likewise, it is not okay when Democrats do this sort of thing or if any other outside source helps them. Honestly, this sort of thing is just not okay no matter which side you are on or how despicable the other side is behaving.
4
The quote “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.” says it all. I thought "the end justifies the means" argument had been recognized as immoral long ago. If accept that logic then there's no hope for the concept of just doing the right thing because it's the right thing.
3
"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
-Animal Farm
5
ho ho ho. Dems cheat. Who would've thunk it. It's a tradition in the Dem party going back forever. Don't forget LBJ in 1948 or JFK in 1960. I mean what's wrong with having a few dead people vote for a good cause or helping union members get out the vote for the right candidate. Or doing whatever it takes (pick a promise) to ensure that Blacks pull the lever for dems.
It's amazing that in a quick read through of the comments that there are so many progs who excuse this...
I doubt that this influenced many voters, but it's the principle -- and this wasn't a foreign entity now was it. This was a pure and simple case of collusion among dems to help ensure they win an election. Naughty naughty.
3
Another glaring example of why I left the democratic party. The dirty tactics used to try and anoint Hillary were just the tip. The corruption extends throughout and is worse on a local level. I am so tired of hearing people yelling about how Trump must go. As if after he leaves the country will magically correct itself. Anyone who believes that is naive and blind to the corruption and lack of integrity that preceded Trump and continues to fester in both parties. That's why so many people in desperation opted to vote for Trump.
4
I have the distinct sense that all of the moral outrage of "lefties" in this comment section is in fact just right-wingers taking advantage of the moment to confuse a reinvigorated opposition and induce more cluck-cluck-clucking amongst the left.
As a reminder to all the outraged lefties posting here: please recall how JFK won Chicago? #ReminiscingForAFriend
Defining deviancy down. We have become a thoroughly corrupt society in an advanced state of decay. Our days a limited. Leader of the pack?? No. Just one of the wildebeests in the middle or perhaps bringing up the rear.
1
One more reason why we need a constitutional amendment to undo Citizens United. This is all kinds of wrong, no matter which side is doing it.
11
If lying and deception are illegal, then every member of Congress should be in jail.
Let's put aside the phony outrage and concentrate on undoing the Supreme Court precedents that facilitate such false flag operations, Citizens United and its progeny.
3
I am so opposed to the ends justifying the means in this case. I want people to be strategic, but not deceitful, in getting rid of the worst Republicans.
3
Slime is slime no matter what political language you speak.
These "geniuses" and the organizations they work for should be put out of business because, bottom line, they are cheating the voters out of the only thing that really counts in an election. Accurate information.
6
@interested party,
Who believes that social media is the place to get "accurate information"? Perhaps, because many of our population are not resourceful and aware enough to seek information from reliable, reputable sources, false news is effective
I think the headline is misleading. This was not something planned or endorsed by the Democratic party. It was the work of individuals.
10
“You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
To cheat. I'm glad Democrats are finally willing to admit it.
3
Oh, please. Spare me the outrage. This nation's democracy is on life support right now because of Republicans' dishonest tactics. They have seen how well the outright lying, the voter suppression, the gerrymandering, and the falsehoods on social media have worked. It's been a spectacular success for them. And the result? We live in a one-party regime, under authoritarian rule.
We now have a Supreme Court with five toadies who will support whatever our dictator wants. And he may well get to appoint another justice before he leaves the White House. And he will only leave at a time of his choosing.
So understand this. Those of us who detest Trump and his rabid, vicious, bigoted base, are in a fight. Not a "dialogue" or a "debate", but a fight. A fight for the very soul of this nation. Either we are a nation governed by our Constitution, or we are not. Trump voters have no problem living under the latter. In fact, he's promised that they will "revolt" if Congress takes any steps to remove him.
Those of us who are sickened by, afraid of, and horrified by this regime have only two choices. Fight, or leave. Otherwise, we will live the rest of our lives in what is now the first police state this nation has ever seen. And to fight, we must use those tactics Trump and his toadies have used so successfully. Because he's shown that's what it takes to control the nation. And we must do the same to take back control of our country. And if we don't try? Two words - Germany 1939.
4
Why on Earth would you lie about Roy Moore, as if there weren’t enough damning truths about him to use as ammunition? On the other hand, I can imagine this being born out of frustration when accusations of rape and “I grab them by the...” isn’t enough to disqualify a (white male) candidate.
2
Idiots!
Just shows that moronic, distrustful behavior is not limited to gender or party.
2
Concededly, two wrongs don't make a right in this case. Apologies have been made, and an elections investigation is being undertaken.
However, I'm still waiting for our alleged "President", whose incessant 24/7 voice everyone now knows by heart, allegedly described crotch grabbing females, to explicitly apologize for that statement.
That is not just merely acceptable locker room talk, and was not to the best of my recollection investigated!
2
The Republicans have been getting away with this garbage for over 50 years. It's about time they had a taste of their own medicine. As long as it was done independently of official party action, I refrain from passing judgement.
6
This is despicable, but no more despicable than the lies, deceptions, distortions and attacks propagated overtly by candidates themselves (more so, but not exclusively, on the Republican side). We can outlaw these kinds of false flag, social media based operations, but it won't eliminate dishonest and vicious campaigning. In the Gingrich inspired, win-at-all-costs political realm we live in, there seems to be no bottom. How much further can we devolve before it all breaks down?
1
If you feel the only way to win is to create a false campaign against another candidate, you probably should have found a better candidate. Get out with this "moral imperative" garbage.
6
@James Simon, Why should the Democrats find "a better candidate", when the lying campaigns have worked so well for Trump and the Republicans? They knew he couldn't win on the truth, so they installed him based on more lies than anyone can count at this point.
2
We did have a good candidate, who is now our Senator.
So the self-righteous "resistance" isn't so righteous after all.
5
It looks like the Dems really learned from the Russians. Yet they plead that they were the ones harmed .
3
Are these guys really Republicans pretending to be Democrats pretending to be Republicans? Because, they are only helping the lying, cheating Republicans add to their list of whatabouts that they use to excuse their cheating. Now the Party of Trump gets to claim that Democrats stole the election from Roy Moore!
Nobody lies amid cheats better than Republicans. Democrats cannot win playing that game. These clowns need to be shunned by Democrats and definitely not emulated.
I often accuse the Democratic Party leadership of bringing cupcakes to a nuclear war, but that doesn't mean I want Democrats to act like Trump.
What it means is that they have to stop doing all of the compromising while Republicans never waver from their goals of tax cuts for billionaires and changing regulations to help specific donors (under the choice of deregulation).
Most of the tax cheats, liars, con-men, and white supremacist terrorists have joined the Party of Trump. We need to beat them. But we can't do that by being Republican-Lite. The more Democrats act like Republicans, and compromise with their bad policies, the more Democrats lose.
The way to beat he Party of Trump is to clearly define your values and principles, develop policies that move those values and principles forward, and clearly and passionately explain why your policies will be good for the country.
Democrats cannot win the Republican game.
Take control of the debate and fight for We the People like you really mean it!
5
So will more conservative Democrats launch a false flag operation to discredit more progressive dems? Why should I trust they they won’t? Maybe they have already. As someone who reluctantly joined the party so I could vote in primaries, these kind of actions only serve to erode the tenuous trust I have placed in party leadership.
3
Wasn’t Donald Trump just such a Democrat false flag operation himself. Didn’t the Clinton campaign use their friends in the media to push the narrative that the Republicans candidates during the primary were out of touch with the mainstream by pushing every wackadoodle Republican candidate to the forefront? Ben Carson, Donald Trump, Ted Cruz?
Isn’t the focus on social media and Russia in part to help avoid admitting complicity in the 2016 election debacle, where magical thinking and dreams of white house access proved more alluring than reality?
1
It is such a darned shame that politicians have to use subterfuge to get elected. And even more of a shame that voters get sucked into believing what they see or read on Facebook as truth. One must remember that Facebook started out as a college dating site. Learning and knowledge were never the focus or the point of Facebook or any other of the social media platforms. I think we need to get used to that, and move on.
4
I don't dispute the Times facts and find the actions taken to be very questionable. I do dispute the authors' framing of the issue, making it sound as though there was a widespread conspiracy among progressives to commit this kind of fraud.
In fact it was a few obscure individuals not affiliated with any mainstream progressive groups but rather tied to obscure for-profit little political action companies and a billionaire.
This is yet another example of the Times' endless effort to discredit progressives.
3
"when they go low, we go lower"
6
@Verystab Legenius
Many of us laughed when we heard Michelle Obama make her comment about going higher. How many progressives know how Obama handled his first campaign? Pure Chicago style tactics.*
***************
"Obama played hardball in first Chicago campaign"
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/29/obamas.first.campaign/index.html
4
@AACNY
You are not laughing at Trump's criminal behavior I guess.
2
I'm not sure why this (false flag operations by insiders/Americans) is any less heinous than similar actions by outsiders (Russians). While I don't appreciate Russians interfering in out democracy, the same tactics by Americans are just as bad. Basically the social media version of Richard Nixons "dirty tricks." Not amusing.
3
“If you don’t do it, you’re fighting with one hand tied behind your back,” said Mr. Osborne, a writer and consultant who lives outside Florence, Ala. “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
Osborne’s comment displays a lack of knowledge of the moral constellations that we must steer by. The guile and deceit by my party, the Dems, stinks.
5
How many Democrats participated ...3 ?
4
So just to be clear: Democrats/Progressives create fake news.
Can't wait for Maureen Dowd and Gail Collins to weigh in on this, and tell us all that it's just a whole lot of nothing.
2
Yes, Mr. Bot, because we know conservatives have NEVER stooped to worse actions on an even larger scale to push their own agenda, gerrymandered to the max to fix elections every place manageable or spread blatant lies at head-spinning speeds for the purpose of misinforming the public to meet their personal, usually self-enriching, ends at the public's expense. Swoonworthy pearl clutching at it's worst.
1
If done wrong you get arrested; if done right, elected.
2
We get upset about pedophilia here in the Notheast, but in Alabama, threatening people with sobriety is more likely to drive them to the polls. I don’t approve of the tactic used, but I especially don’t approve of Roy Moore, and if this is why he lost, I guess i’ll get over it.
2
All of the sanctimonious commenters who are so apoplectic about the idea of Democratic “dirty tricks” remind me of Henry Stimson, who in 1929 closed the U.S. Cipher Bureau (precursor to the N.S.A.) and opined “Gentlemen do not read each other’s mail.” Those self-satisfied critics should read Max Hastings book about WWII espionage called “The Secret War” to appreciate how the Nazis, but especially Stalin’s Soviet Union took enormous advantage of our espionage naïveté in ways that weakened America both during the war and after it.
1
When most media, broadly construed, is marinated in PR/propaganda, you can expect a lot of this. And that will never change, not within a for-profit media institution.
I am a Democrat and of course this "crosses the line. In these debates about who we are, and what we value , we can't hide behind the argument they do it so we must . And besides, excperience teaches us they are just better at this than we are. This, this very thing is what gives voice to the shout that dems are just as bad as . . . .
3
The assault on Truth is widespread.
Even my closest friends and family lie to me all the time and have for decades.
Many cannot handle Truth.
Let they who have no sin throw the first stone.
I don't qualify...
I gotta say it. The dems get some street cred for this one.
7
No, they lose the higher moral ground and debase themselves.
8
@Maholly
Hillary Clinton currently occupies the moral high ground while thousands regular schmoes are being kicked off their insurance each day.
2
so let me get this straight. dems worked to create "fake news" and they funneled cash to do so through an organization headed by a guy named Dimitri? hmmmm.
6
“If you don’t do it, you’re fighting with one hand tied behind your back,” said Mr. Osborne, a writer and consultant who lives outside Florence, Ala. “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
........................No, you don't!
8
The ends justifies the means is a shallow justification at best. It had little effect except to show that some of us liberals can be just as dirty and dishonest as our opponents. There is plenty that’s bad about guys like Roy Moore and Trump. Use the truth, it’s “more” than enough & doesn’t undermine liberalism or the rest of us.
11
When I was a child many, many decades ago, a favorite saying of my Dear Mom and every Mom in the neighborhood: "So, just because everybody else is jumping off that bridge would you?!".
Dems/Progressives: spend your time and money finding and exposing the right-wing rot, don't introduce your own. It has and always will blow up in your face, leaving the right-wingers grinning.
9
I would almost cut off my right hand to keep people like Moore out of our democratic institutions. The man is a pig.
4
You have forgotten republican Mike Hubbard former speaker of the house in Alabama. Convicted in a state trial on 12 counts of ethics violations. Ethic rules that HE created. While his trial was ongoing, do you think he stepped down after the indictments? No! He remained in office until he was sentenced to 4 years in prison. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/us/michael-hubbard-former-alabama-speaker-sentenced-to-4-years-in-prison.html That was in 2016. Guess what, he has yet to serve one day in prison. Welcome to Alabama politics.
So, this horrible atrocity that these democrats did to win an election… OH PLEASE. I am so very tired, exhausted actually, of playing nice. It doesn’t mean I have to be ugly but I don’t have to be nice.
This “Dry Alabama” thing is actually very funny. Maybe you have to be from Alabama to get the joke.
When my hometown voted on the wet / dry issue, we had more voter turnout than for any election in the history of my town – over 65% showed up – and that was the only issue on the ballot. Wet - won by a large margin. So yeah, “Dry Alabama” is funny.
3
You know what really scary?
Alabamans almost elected a known and admitted pedophile.
6
That’s what I’m saying.. this was probably born out of frustration at the insanity that real accusations of pedophilia and, similarly, “I just grab ‘em by the...” and cheating on your wife with a porn star (and others) while she’s pregnant with your child, aren’t enough to diminish your support substantially.
1
I’d guess these didn’t change the outcome. However I must point out that the amount spent was larger than that Russian troll factories spent on the 2016 presidential elections. So maybe it’s time for the Times to admit that the latter effort didn’t influence that election’s outcome either. It was good old fashioned American racism electing Trump president, not Russian trolls.
2
Disgusting. Disheartening. Loathsome. Contemptible. Pick your adjective. But perhaps "demoralizing" is the one I'll choose. Partly because it emphasizes the removal of morals / morality from today's political endeavors. And also because we liberals / leftists / progressives (another multiple choice option) have been earnestly professing to represent the party of transparency, honesty, decency and a bunch of other fine concepts with moral components. And now? We have changed no hearts, minds or souls, and only given the opposition a gleeful opportunity to drag out the "What about...?!" trope, and to trumpet that "See! The Libtards are as bad as anyone! Lock them up!" I do despair.
9
I do not agree with what these people did...although it is comparatively far less immoral than many of the things Roy Moore has done and would have done had he been elected...and you have to balance false flag operations on the other side which will likely come to light eventually (like why Nixon never called out Kennedy for stealing the election...he was trying to steal it also)...
My only question is really: do these people explicitly identify as "Democrats"? They sound like "progressives," who, no matter how much I disagree with their seizure of that title, are often anti-Democratic Party...it seems wrong to call them large-D Democrats so many times in the article making this sound official or even aligned with the Democratic party if it was not. (Not that I doubt that these individuals could have also worked on Party causes.)
"the second so-called false flag operation by Democrats"...that sounds awfully official, what is it based upon? Were the money people regular Democratic Party donors? Just because you are aligned against somebody like Moore doesn't mean you are a big-D Democrat.
1
'After all, facts are facts, and although we may quote one to another with a chuckle the words of the Wise Statesman, "Lies - damn lies - and statistics," still there are some easy figures the simplest must understand, and the astutest cannot wriggle out of.’
False flag campaigns make a mockery of democracy. Condemning particular false flag campaigns also makes a mockery of democracy, since condemning a false flag campaign can rally supporters even when the false flag campaign was fake. False flag campaigns must be condemned in general, and the condemnation must be more than vacuous bloviating. To be real, it must take the form of specific recommendations on how to identify and punish false flag campaigns.
In our current paranoid political climate, accusing the other side of false flag operations is a vote getter, and so building a false false flag operation and then condemning it can be an effective tactic.
2
Wait a minute... isn't the GOP the only corrupt party?
2
@R. R.
I have never seen such a disconnect between the perception of a party and the real thing. Progressives have this noble view of themselves and their party. It's clearly not based in reality. Purely wishful thinking. Or a need to feel morally superior.
3
Ha. I find this laughable. The president of the United States does nothing but lie on a daily basis, his entire presidency is based on lies, dirty tricks, theft and treason. How many times have we heard the fake stories about Hilary's emails or Obama's birth certificate. Fox News does this on a minute by minute basis. The right is actively suppressing votes, constantly engaged in behavior that is undemocratic and outright criminal. Donald Trump asked an enemy foreign power to interfere in an election so he would win. But when the left employs one of the right's tactics it is all so unfair and unprofessional. This is why the left can't take power - always dithering, always talking about what is fair while corporate America creates fake wars behind closed doors in a nice polite legal traditionally corrupt American way. But by all means, while they do so, let's apply rules to one group but not another.
4
There is a place where Democrats have to do something other than promise to give away someone else’s money to win?
3
I see alot of the "means justifies the ends" comments below and implicit in ALL comments on this website. The hypocrisy of the left is astounding and why I stopped supporting it years ago. Yet, when I saw the lengths that the MSM and the former administration were willing to go to undermine the legitimacy of the 2016 election, it reached a whole new level. From the first NYT cover page concerning alleged "Russian collusion", I said to myself My God they are willing to lie and effectively steal back the election from the duly elected President of the United States. And effectively that is what has happened despite all time prosperity for all Americans (despite color or creed), this President has battled unprecedented and unwarranted attacks from the MSM and the public opinion shaped by the MSM. To recount the contrivances and injustices inflicted upon this country would be too much and only fall on deaf ears. In fact my post will likely only provide another opportunity for commentors here to restate the false litany of grievances committed by the Trump. Or further comment "cite the legitimate article that proves what you are saying and then I will believe you", which I have done in the past only to have them censored. The echo in this echo chamber is very strong here. All I can say is go to other news sources and check out other timelines and learn how to exercise your own good judgment, because the means certainly DO NOT JUSTIFY the ends as many here would have you believe.
6
Something for the new Democratic congress to work on - new rules mandating transparency in all political ads including social media with an online list of all groups producing political ads that people could refer to in order to know their agenda.
How dumb is the American electorate? Do people really change their mind about which candidate they are going to vote for because of something on a silly platform like social media instead of a candidate's position on various issues as mentioned in accredited news channels and on the candidates website? If so, then we deserve the politicians we elect, including Trump.
Wow, who knew the Dems could be so dirty while constantly screeching collusion.
4
This is wrong but I'm sick of losing to cheating Republicans!
What to do? What to do?
1
Shocking,
just
Shocking !!!
Democrats
DEMOCRATS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
carrying out 'dirty tricks'
in Politics ?
Say it isn't so -
Joe ! ( Biden )
Perhaps Nancy Pelosi should step down
to show that she will not tolerate her party
being anything -
but as pure
as the un-driven snow.
2
Ooo wee, here's some grease for that slippery slope we was warned about!
2
I'm a progressive Democratic, however I think this whole scam was extremely stupid. Just because Republicans do stuff like this doesn't mean we have to reduce ourselves to their level.
I am disgusted by this unethical behavior. It rhymes with the opportunism, entitlement and political expediency that appalled so many voters and alienated them from the Democratic establishment.
3
When fighting the forces of evil, we must use any means necessary. So while these tactics are not my favorite, if it helps defeat a Republican, it can be excused. Because the alternative is the nightmare we are living today, where a racist version of Lord Voldemort is the Senate Majority Leader and drunken frat boy rapists sit on the Supreme Court for 40 years.
2
Okay NY Times... NOW publish every "false flag" Facebook posting made by the Republicans. Fair is fair. Why are you pointing out only THIS particular one without referencing all the others? You know the Repubs are going to use this article to make it seem like they're the victims.
4
Mr. Osborne, a consultant who lives outside Florence, Ala. “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
Mr Osborne is wrong. There is never a moral imperative to deceive and to lie.
Mr. Osborne is also intellectually lazy. When you have a candidate who is accused of being a pedophile, as Roy Moore was, the truth is all you need to win.
3
Sometimes the paranoid whackos might be on to something. This makes you wonder about all those racists you see at some of those rallies, with such overtly bigoted signs. It sounds crazy, I know. But if you are willing to fake a prohibitionist campaign by Baptists, it's not that far of a stretch to fake racism, either.
1
Everyone thought only the Republicans would do something like this. Now that both sides are engaged this will make for an interesting 2020 election.
I hope that these people will look up the word counterproductive.
2
Principles only count when they're inconvenient. Progressives need to treat the other side better than the other side deserves.
1
Well, well, well. Two can play the same game, Republicans. The GOP lowered the standards, and broke the norms.
Not sorry they are getting a does of their own medicine.
2
This is not surprising. I am a liberal, but I am disturbed that the progressive left has become too righteous, and seems to think they are correct, and can do anything they want. Having the end justify the means is just a further development of this attitude. Unfortunately, this is a lack of integrity on the left!
6
While this kind of tactic leaves a less than-pleasant taste in my mouth, it strikes me as ethically and morally identical to the ubiquitous negative attack ads that inundate the airwaves. Such “ads” are invariably loaded with misleading or outright false characterizations of candidates and issues, absurdly foreboding music, and dark menacing imagery and visuals.
Somehow we continue to tolerate those, despite their inherently corrosive and dishonest nature. Social media ‘false flags’ may strike people as something new, but they‘re simply a modern evolution of something that’s been going on since day one in politics.
1
As soon as you have to start convincing yourself or anyone else that the ends justify the means, it likely that you're headed down the wrong path.
4
What has traditionally separated the Dems from the Republicans is that (I thought that) the Dems did not subvert longtime, core principles - truth over lies, science over belief, evidence over fabrication - in order to gain an advantage. In other words, whereas we've long seen that the Republicans would say or do almost anything to win, the Democrats did not believe that the party's goals, however noble and necessary, justified sleazy means. Of course this put the party at an occasional, tactical disadvantage. The zeal of the party's progressive wing is refreshing to some, but for most of us who form the big middle of the Democrats, the progressives' excuses that "The Republicans do it" or Trump must be removed "by any means necessary" do not reflect longtime party ideals, to put it mildly. Worse, not only is it cynical, it likely won't work. Why? Lack of experience. If the progressives think that they can beat the Republicans at their own game - from expletive-rich calls for impeachment to fake economics to deceptive campaign ads - they're in for another rude surprise.
1
The moral imperative is to take the high ground, set the standards for honesty, and debunk and expose the oppositions deceptive
practices.
‘Nuff said. Get to it.
2
So this may or may not have had any effect at all on the election.. just like Russia's influence campaign may or may not have had any influence in getting Trump elected.
Got it.
1
As an independent who mostly votes Democrat, I am appalled and ashamed. This reinforces my commitment to stop supporting the DNC and similar organizations. My money and time now goes to individual candidates who reflect my values and priorities.
6
The Democrats are my team. This is not ok. Not at any time. Not for any reason.
3
This behaviour will only feed the view that one side is as bad as the other, does no one want to occupy the high moral ground? And you wonder why people are turning their backs on the political class.
1
I'm disgusted by this. If congress won't act, social networks could by changing their terms of service and advertiser agreements, which would make these campaigns into contract violations and then sue perpetrators, regardless of party, for damages.
1
Leo Durocher famously said "Nice guys finish last". Its true in politics. Look at what happened to Mitt Romney who was falsely accused by a lying Harry Reid who, when caught in the lie smugly justified his lies by saying: "We won, didn't we?". Liberals smiled, remaining silent, only too happy to have the blatant falsehoods taint the republican presidential nominee. Same story ,10 years earlier, all lies justified in the name of achieving power. Liberals claim they stand for a higher moral purpose but this story, and others reveal the truth. One could credibly claim that the Facebook false flags of 2016 were the culmination of a political culture of mendacity.
2
Mr Osborne, too bad your mother didn’t teach you that “Just because Jimmy does it doesn’t mean that you can or should also do it.”
If the Democratic or Republican Party is to recapture any moral significance in American society it will come about when the likes Mr Osborne, those like him and their tactics are rejected and eliminated outright from any consideration.
Apparently the moral high ground is still unclaimed. Both Parties should be aware of this if not, their service to and on behalf of the American people will soon become relegated to the ash heap. And perhaps too, the country we so admired and the society of which we dreamed.
2
Morally and ethically I fail to see how this is different than Russias efforts to thwart integrity in American elections. Indeed, for American citizens to so deceive one another purposely and with intent to deceive through outright lies, seems much worse. We can identify a foreign power as an adversary, but how so when the 'adversary' is your neighbor and you only found out through investigative reporting after the fact. There is nothing that will cause a loss of faith in our elections more than the loss of faith in the very electorate.
2
I guess I am not that strong morally or ethically. If the other side has weaponized the same tactics, have been using gerrymandering for years, has laws passed for people’s ability to vote, and most recently passed laws in Virginia, Michigan, and Wisconsin to limit governor’s power just because they lost, then I am okay with using Facebook and social media to create sone conflicts in their voting blocks.
If you can’t beat them when in all fairness they shouldn’t have won to begin with then join them.
3
Any person who took part in this, did it, funded it, or knew about it and said nothing, is a traitor to democracy.
Any democrat who took part of this should be public ally pilloried and kicked out of the party and never allowed back in. This is not something Democrats can stay silent on. When Republicans do this sort of thing, Democrats rightfully complain. Now is the time for Democrats to put actions to words.
Doug Jones should vocally forcefully repudiate any person who thought he was doing him or the Democratic Party a favor. If it comes out that Jones or any person of power on his campaign knew about this, and therefore colluded to sign off on it, Jones should resign. And if under those circumstances he doesnt, he should be thrown out of the Democratic caucus
Democrats must hold themselves to the standards that they desire from others, and for this nation. These “Progessives” are not progressing towards anything positive, the perpetrators disgust me.
As a Democrat and member of the left, this is not decent, it is not good, and it is not what I support, nor something I will stand for from my party.
2
Unfortunately, at this point, all of my views of political elections are viewed through a lense of children separated from their families and placed in cages. A fake prohibition Facebook page versus the faces of those children? The imbalance of that seesaw has shot the fake pages to the moon. So, put up all the fake pages we need if it can keep that, in any way, from happening "again."
1
Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. When the other guy draws on you, you will be dead.
The GOP is in power because they did not act honorably, and even acted illegally, and sought and accepted help from Russia. And not just Trump, but the NRA, too.
So, in my view, anything, absolutely anything, that is done to make the GOP disgorge all of their gains is acceptable. Even banana-republic style stuff.
Get us back to square one, where the Dems have the presidency, the Senate, and the House, and make the necessary changes to increase the justices and judges on the courts to negate the ill-gotten gains the GOP accrued, and then talk.
Until then, alls fair.
2
I'm ashamed of this. Ashamed that it has to come to this. Ashamed that to advance above board goals we have to engage in below board practices.
Nothing good can be said of this. As I tell my kids, two wrongs don't make a right.
2
Wow. The only thing I can say in his favour is at least he's owning it.
1
What's with the Republican breathlessness here?
The President said it's not against the law to lie to the public so it must be OK.
And no less than the incredible attorney Rudolph Giuliani was quoted saying this in December, "“The president’s not under oath,” Giuliani said Sunday of Trump’s false public statements.""
1
“If you don’t do it, you’re fighting with one hand tied behind your back,” said Mr. Osborne, a writer and consultant who lives outside Florence, Ala. “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
Lifelong Democrat here. And nope. We do not have a moral imperative to do whatever it takes. I hope party leaders and the rank-and-file will condemn this vigorously.
3
The quest for power leads too many to the politics of smear, personal destruction... and outright lies under false cover. Stinko.
A victory by cheating is an empty one. I'm embarrassed these are Democrats.
5
I am disheartened to learn of this fake website intended to deceive voters about the Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore. What's worse, however, was to learn of the response by one of the Progressive political operatives who worked on the deceptive website:
“If you don’t do it, you’re fighting with one hand tied behind your back,” said Mr. Osborne, a writer and consultant who lives outside Florence, Ala. “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
No, Mr. Osborne that is not the way we are going to prevail in this battle of worldviews. If anything, your actions will make matters worse not only by providing ammunition to the far right who will point to this example and exclaim “fake news”, but also by souring honest, upstanding voters into thinking that maybe both sides really are the same — a mindset prevalent among many Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein supporters in the 2016 Presidential election.
2
The Democratic party is motivated by winning, and only winning. This is the characteristic in which it is most like the Republican party.
.
When the Republicans were forced to choose between sticking by their principles and backing a popular Trump, they chose Trump. They will abandon him as soon as he is sufficiently unpopular. This, and not any legal question, is what decides whether he will be removed from office.
.
If the Democrats are forced to choose between between the #MeToo movement and winning, they will choose winning. How do I know this? Because only a few years after the Anita Hill hearings, the Democratic party and every leading feminist organization turned against women to back Bill Clinton when he was revealed as a sexual predator and the archetype of sexual harassment in the workplace. He remained the most popular Democratic speaker for 15 years after leaving office.
.
Techy types are overwhelmingly Democratic supporters. Their response to Russian meddling? We can do much better than that. And so we will see a steady trickle of stories (not necessarily widely reported) that operatives for the Democratic party, at a distance from donors and candidates (plausible deniability), have been and are engaged in schemes to lie to the American people, and to do it bigger and better than the Russians every dreamed of.
.
Don't expect the Democrats to be the "good" party; you'll be disappointed. There is no moral high ground. It's all about the lust for power.
2
I just want to put my vote down, as a registered democrat, liberal / progressive - this ticks me off as much or as more as when the gop does it. Slimy is slimy, no matter who does it, and there's always another way.
3
Wow! Could be a major Democratic problem?
This is a real scandal beyond what's reported here. It became public on Dec.19, 2018. And the Times is reporting it 17 days later. CNN still hasn't reported it! This is "exactly" what Mueller is looking for with Trump campaign?
What if the HRC campaign did something similar, who would know?
Could these types of activities by other groups be involved in the Mueller investigation? Is this just the tip of the iceberg?
Let the probes begin.
3
"How many times do I have to tell you? Two wrongs do not make a right." --My father, a thousand times
1
Just a reminder, democrat does not mean progressive.
1
When you act as an enabler for extremism, the lies are sure to follow.
Sadly, it seems far too many in the Democratic Party have yet to learn this message, thus making support for the Democratic Party agenda during times like our current government shutdown or holding our president accountable or even convicing voters to vote (D) for in 2020 becomes all that much harder.
This from a moderate democrat who is sick of the ideological warfare and its lies.
2
@Mike M.
Those who believe it's only republicans who do this give the Democratic Party a gigantic pass and are, essentially, enablers. This kind of partisanship just gives unethical political behavior air cover.
3
Roy Moore was an admitted pedophile and maybe the most divisive senate candidate in American history. But still the Democrats felt they had to run a false flag operation against him. Two thoughts, sometimes it really is "fake news" and any Republican with a pulse and without a 19 yo wife is going to crush Jones in 2020. Also it is getting a little harder for the Democratic party to claim the moral high ground with stories like this.
8
Yeah, well, I'm a lifelong Democrat and I say no. The truth spoke for itself regarding the reprehensible Roy Moore. If you think you have to tell lies to win votes, then you aren't a real Democrat. We don't stir up fear and resentment to get votes-- that's what THEY do. I cannot support a party that engages in those tactics. My party is led by the Honorable Nancy Pelosi, who doesn't tell lies. Vote for a Democrat because our policies are better.
I am embarrassed by these tactics and reject them.
12
I cant tell if this is satire or not...
2
Republicans may be ok with this type of deception but I want Democrats to be better than this. Honest. I left the GOP because of this kind of undemocratic activity.
5
If progressives are content to prevail by "any means necessary" (including our own duplicitous manipulation of media), the pendulum will eventually come back our way, and with increasing force. Our deceptions and conceits will simply feed the general angst which has put Trump in office. Michelle Obama is right: The high road is rough and uncertain (now so more than ever), yet it's our only shot at a viable civic community. We democrats need to proceed with integrity. We need to hear our opponents' arguments, look for legitimate concerns therein, and forge honest and intelligent responses. Even when its not immediately gratifying.
4
When any political campaign believes "win at any cost" is the right strategy, we all lose.
8
The entire GOP didn’t collude with the Russians to elect Trump nor did the entire Democratic Party create false Facebook identities to elect Jones. One of the reasons that we cannot find common ground is because people keep attributing the actions of the few to the many members of entire organizations.
7
true but don't be fooled. dems are notorious for lumping anyone who disagrees with them into "ist, ic, or ism" categories. racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. for a group that prides itself on lot labeling people, dems do a heck of a job of labeling those that hold a different opinion.
2
@John
None of the GOP colluded with the Russians to elect Trump. JEB supporters turned over their Trump opposition research to Hillary, who paid millions to flesh it out into the Steele dossier and then fraudulently reported to the FEC that the expenditures were for legal expenses.
Hillary is accountable for her corruption.
2
Yet another example of Russia’s campaign to undermine democracy bearing fruit.
Laws need to be written making the creation of fallacious social media profiles demonstrably meant to influence a U.S. election a crime with significant jail time.
Why is there not already major public discourse on this?
3
@John
Try composing the legislation as an intellectual exercise.
Harry Reid said that Romney didn't pay income taxes. Democrats ran an ad falsely asserting that Romney while working at Bain had caused the death of a woman by denying her health insurance. The NYT says Trump and Trump, Jr engaged in tax fraud. Hillary and Obama said they were opposed to same sex marriage. Obama said his universal health care would not have an individual mandate. Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall. Bill Clinton said he didn't have sex with that woman. Democrats supported Perot in locations to draw votes away from Bush.
2
Easy for either side to do this when many people appear to prefer feeling to thinking when it comes to voting.
2
A key component of what makes modern American conservatism so loathsome and dangerous to our country is its political amorality. Conservatives’ willingness to engage in voter suppression, tolerate foreign interference in our elections, use fake news, undermine legitimate journalism, etc. is causing serious damage to our democracy; and one of the main reasons we must defeat them is because of this harm they are causing. We must not sink to their level, if we beat them while using these underhanded tactics we may win elections in the short-term but we will lose our democracy in the long-term. We can’t save our democracy from the conservatives that are setting it on fire by burning it all down ourselves.
1
1) what voter suppression, where?
2) cite your proof of collusion with foreign entities.
3) Most of what you attribute to the Right is also attributable to the Left
And how are you launching a full throated anti conservative rant about deception when this very article exposes the Left's willingness to deceive the public, publish fake news and propaganda, all to claw back more power over the people?
2
@AA. Are you seriously saying that political amorality is unique to Conservatives? Are you familiar with Democratic politics in Chicago? Have you heard of Antifa? How about the DNC's attempts to sway the primaries in 2016, including furnishing Clinton with debate questions in advance? Or, dare I suggest, the Russian dossier? Nothing wrong with opposition research but the Dems took this much further in how the dossier was sent around and used. I agree that there is political amorality on the Conservative/Republican side but I think you are being willfully blind if you don't see that the same tactics have been used for decades on the Progressive/Democrat side. It's all disgusting to me, whichever side does it.
1
"Conservatives’ willingness to engage in voter suppression, tolerate foreign interference in our elections..."
what do you consider the collusion between HRC and the dnc to get Bernie out of the election to be? would you classify that as "election interference"? and remember, when confronted with the email evidence, neither of them made any attempt to deny it. and so where is that investigation at right now?
3
Osborne is quoted as saying that as long as they're doing it, you have a "moral imperative" to do it, too. And that otherwise, you're fighting with one hand tied behind your back.
Tie the other one there, too...there is no such thing as a moral imperative to do something immoral.
I am appalled that any consultant would act in this way, or attempt to justify it. Sometimes I despair. Speak truth, and shame the devil
383
@Kate I could not have said it better! "There is no such thing as a moral imperative to do something immoral."
The fact that this was done by so-called "progressives" is utterly shameful.
47
@Kate
I strongly encourage people to look for their truth outside of Facebook and Twitter. Don't read The Onion as news, but don't ban it as the devil's lies either.
14
@Kate and you will suffer at the hands of an immoral majority if you don't stop it.
They stopped a pedophile from holding an elected office. No one died or was otherwise hurt.
I say their actions were moral.
But you dont realize these people are playing 3D chess as they say?
Repubs told us this type of activity by the Russians didn't sway the election. What will they do now?
If they complain, then they've undercut the entire Trump presedency and his argument that the Russians didn't help.
It was a brilliant strateguc move done more to bring this issue to light than to sway an election.
What does it say about our morals as a country when this type of activity isn't illegal?
Wake up! This is a civil war being fought through the apparatus of our democracy.
It's either this or a violent confrontation.
I prefer this.
22
Back in the Watergate Era, Donald Segretti got 3 months in jail for his "dirty tricks".
I think that was about right.
I hated it then, I hate it now.
It stains the effort. It poisons the water.
Here's the "moral imperative": Just don't lie.
Why should it be expected that I would despise trump because he's a congenital liar.... but Osborne? "Oh, he's wonderful! His lies are just fine!"
No, they are not.
Osborne poisons. His lies are as toxic as a conservative's.
The one thing that I hate about Republicans is that they lie or stand by, smirking, while another lies.
They have no ethical core and laugh at anyone who does.
The Koch's have garnered a fortune creating non-profits that specialize in untruths.
This is dry rot.
Osborne is not a "progressive".
He is the heir to Donald Segretti, a liar who went to jail.
It is my hope that all liars go to jail.
All of them.
202
@rosa I agree with you but am at a total loss as to how to fight the lies, dirty tricks and "no collusion" collusion.
5
@rosa
I read this post and immediatey hit the "recommended" button, as you gave expression to my thoughts better than I could have done. The constant fabrication of falsehoods and torturing of actual facts are poison and will harm the citizenry of this nation. It is no wonder that so many are turning away from the business of government and shunning politics when nothing from either side can be trusted to represent even a valid opinion, let alone the truth. This toxic retreat to cynicism will destroy the country long before child molesting fools like Roy Moore.
26
@rosa
Then institute truth in campaigning laws where violators are punished. But don't expect one party to play by a different set of rules that puts them at a huge disadvantage. Honor is a great goal but the reality is that the republicans show that they will stop at nothing to win. Sadly the Democrats are cornered. They can either keep taking the high road and keep losing which is proving detrimental to the health and well being of our country or they can employ similar tactics to level the playing field. This isn't a game. The damage and danger are real and high stakes. trump and his complicit republicans are causing severe damage to our country, her people and the world. Should we stand by with our high morals while they repeal environmental regulation after environmental regulation, literally poisoning the earth for ourselves, our children and future children? While they further enrich the wealthy at the expense of the rest? While they chip away at our guaranteed Constitutional rights such as reproductive freedom, freedom of and from religion, the right to vote, to marry whom we wish? If this is what it takes to save our country from these dangerous corporate owned tools so be it. The consequences are too dire to stand idly by and do nothing. You don't reason with bullies and cheats you give them a taste of their own medicine. That is the only way to defeat them. Stand tall and fight using whatever methods necessary. It pains me to say it but it's too late to play nice.
15
Shouldn’t the morals we all try to teach our children also apply in politics?
Who tells their kid: you are allowed to do something wrong if you think others are doing it? Nobody I know.
The democrats don’t seem to understand the opportunity that trump presents. They can be RIGHT on every issue and oppose Trump at the same time. Being right still matters. Being good matters. That’s what leadership is about. If you can’t campaign against a child molester without using immoral tricks, the implicit message is that you have no ability to morally handle responsibility yourself.
301
@Baldwin
I wish your fantasy were true. We now see with crystal-clarity that being right and good are largely irrelevant. The "implicit message" you are stating is simply wrong; there is an explicit message, which is that the Dems need to fight fire with fire, or else just keep losing. These are the sort of tricks that the Republicans have been using for decades to promote an agenda that is clearly to the detriment of their base.
19
@Baldwin Exactly. This is what we should be demanding of all of our political parties.
7
@Baldwin Being right may matter, but poisoning the air, catering to despots, imprisoning children, etc don't seem to be prevented by being right.
16
I disagree with this approach. If you are a progressive you should reject deception, and expose it on the other side. When you lower yourself like this, you lose credibility. Very disappointing.
489
@Anonymous
You also lose elections. I agree with your view, but the playing field must be leveled. We have to all be playing by the same rules.
Considering the vast chasm between what went on with Russian trolls during the 2016 election and these paltry efforts (created by apparently local and legitimate agencies) are laughable.
11
@Pundette
I'd rather loose with an honest candidate than win with a dishonest one. This "tehcniques" are eroding the public's trust in politicians (and any the media that picks up the stories). Just by doing them it makes things worse, win or loose.
The other issue is that the left isn't about to go matching punch for punch with the right's use of deceptive campaigns and outright lies. However, ONE story like this, and that's how it is portrayed - both sides do it. It's why many Americans hate elected officials. They don't even know their own rep's name, but they do know all politicians are corrupt and lazy.
These consultants should be publicly dragged through the mud for this. They should apologize and find jobs in another field.
7
@Anonymous
I'd argue conservatives should reject deception like this too! (and more urgently I might add)
6
Good moral decisions come from doing the right thing when tempted to do the wrong thing. I strongly supported the defeat of Roy Moore, but not by any means. False flag campaign methods are high on the list of things that made a mockery of the 2016 election. To use the same tactics under the justification that the other side is doing it is not good moral decisions making. Period.
589
@Plumberb: Republicans will join efforts to make these tactics illegal only if they realize that they, too, can be harmed by them. The Democrats shouldn't unilaterally disarm.
34
@Plumberb
We are literally fighting against Confederate forces.
Unilateral disarmament is not an option in this war.
I don't like the immorality of it either, but the high road got American a Mad Hatter and a bunch of Grand Old Pirates hellbent on power at all costs.
They must be stopped.
The Republican Party is a cancer on America.
Chemotherapy has never been pleasant.
64
@Socrates Yes war is messy but I for one am for total political war!
12
Please follow up on the article's "veteran progressive activist" Matt Osborne's assertion that Republicans in the Alabama race were making the same sort of fake Facebook pages that he was.
None are cited in the article.
3
Mixed feelings. All of us want the truth. But, as Republican, or at least former one, sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Would like to see a better and more transparent (truthful) election system but if the GOP takes pride in following the Lee Atwater, Art of War model, then the Dems have no choice.
At least the Dems didn't enlist the support of a foreign power like the Trump Republicans. Using good old home grown Southern Baptists seems like a much better choice. Religion really has no place in politics but this is something else the GOP wanted so guess it is karma that it was used against them.
Bottom line is the best candidate, Doug Jones, still won by a long short. I don't think i could have stayed in the US with Trump and Roy Moore both in power.
I think the actual problem is that 51 millions dollars was spent in the race (in a backwater rural state with a small population no less). But, alas, there is nothing we can do. See Citizen's United.
2
My knee-jerk reaction upon reading this was : "Beautiful. Great !". A few seconds of deeper reflection reinforced the unavoidable conclusion that I reached several years ago, which is, the U.S.A. is about as cohesive now as it was just before the civil war. Considering what (I refuse to stoop to referring to it as 'who') is currently infesting the White House and Senate majority, I'd say we're in a pretty politically unstable and hazardous period. We have a problem that is a reflection of the 'thinking' processes and severe cognitive limitations of 49% of the American electorate. More dirty tricks aren't gong to get us out of the hole we're in. What we all need to do is stop digging.
1
If I recall correctly, Russian-backed accounts are alleged to have spent about $110,000 (nationwide) on Facebook ads during the 2016 presidential election.
Here, in an election limited to the voters of Alabama, Investing in Us (and whoever their backers are) spent $200,000. Nevertheless, we're supposed to believe that the Russian money swayed votes, while the Alabama money did not.
7
I am a lifelong Democrat, and this disgusts me. It is part of the race to the bottom in which our society seems to be engaged. There are no winners in such a race. If some people loathe the Republican party or Roy Moore--and there is much loathsome about both--the answer is emphatically not to behave like them.
Nearly a century ago, Justice Brandeis declared, "If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. To declare that in the administration of the criminal law the end justifies the means-to declare that the government may commit crimes in order to secure the conviction of a private criminal-would bring terrible retribution. Against that pernicious doctrine this court should resolutely set its face." His statement has more general application. Breaking rules--even (or perhaps especially) rules of civility--breeds contempt for rules.
We have descended into a milieu where people and governments act as if the ends justify the means. And look at the society it has left us.
Only we can get ourselves out of this situation, and those behind this effort to disinform the Alabama electorate have contributed reprehensibly to our current troubles.
111
@WTig3ner
In the Hoffman story the Times writer attempts to justify this tactic gym saying "if others are going to use this against us at least a "few" Democrats will do the same. "
Moral equivalency?
1
@Frank Leibold
With respect, Frank, I don't think so (although I might go for "immoral equivalency"). Were that truly representative of a moral equivalency, pretty soon everyone would be lying, stealing, killing, etc. in the name of moral equivalency. That is the race to the bottom, and its slogan is "might makes right." If that is so, then it must follow that centuries of slavery and discrimination, subjugation of women, viewing wives and children as the property of the husband and father, female genital mutilation as practiced in some parts of Africa, and a whole host of other things must be "right."
That describes what Thomas Hobbes characterized as a state of nature, in which, he assured us, life is violent, "nasty, brutish, and short."
I think morality requires those who value it to step back and condemn immorality, not to embrace it. When a riot is taking place, joining it does not help change the situation; it exacerbates it. Adopting disgraceful tactics makes the adopters disgraceful; it does not cause others to behave better.
2
@WTig3ner
Civility is disgusting and if there's one blessing to Trump i'd say that he may have destroyed our awful rotten discourse. The brutal reality to our political system should be said out loud. Racist policies should be promoted as such, no more 'small government' or 'lower taxes', just come out and be honest. Politics isn't a game, it's life and death for many people at the bottom. I've watch people i know die needless deaths either overseas for no good reason, or here at home because health insurance executives wanted another yacht. They're dead and they're never coming back, the pain and misery caused by their absence never lifts even for a second. When you consider that these deaths were deliberately orchestrated by a ruling class who sees us as expendable you start to think, 'did they expect us to treat them with any respect?'
Honestly though, this is what we must do, as long as they can purge voter rolls and draw their own districts and steal Supreme Court justices i say keep using the ads. If they complain maybe use the LEVERAGE gained from this tactic to get them to back down on some of their dirty tricks too.
Don't be a sucker, they are relying on us to keep going high so they can keep winning. Going low is what will get them to negotiate. Losers don't get to make demands.
Stop calling those who created false messages and bots "progressive" Democrats. This is an untrue subtle slur and an attempt to smear the faction that is emerging as the new voice. Call them "liberalists" or "neo-cons". They are not the progressive faction, but the centrist right Democrats that pull this off and control the party. And of course, the one truth is that "both sides" have been doing this sort of thing since time began - it's just that the internet expands its force exponentially. But, that is no excuse.
2
This is exactly what we despise Trump for: doing things to win, careless that it each erodes the shared trust and norms that keep the system functioning (and civilized).
Get out of my party, you hacks.
7
“You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
The left has become at least as corrupt and dishonest as the right has always been. The implications for our country are terrifying, especially as naive, gullible millennials gobble up and regurgitate progressive propaganda with a moral certainty that was once confined to the evangelical right and middle eastern jihadis.
2
Over the last few years, I think media has collectively failed its public-interest mandate by pretending that online-propaganda efforts was somehow unique to "Russia" or was at all uncommon - these sorts of things have become legion, and everyone does it in varying degree. Pretending that "A few thousand bucks" spent @ Google, or similar paltry sums @ Facebook were supposed to be outrageous crimes dulls people to the reality that the same behavior is engaged in daily by dozens of politically-connected domestic interests.
The difference between 'gently massaged, carefully-placed stories' done by establishment media, wily exaggerations promoted by PACs, and outright falsehoods pumped by political consultant-hacks, is quickly being blurred. The fact outside agents engage in the same practices should be no surprise to anyone. Its easy and cheap, and while its rarely effective, it sometimes can get lucky and go viral. Journalists need to decide whether clarifying these issues to people is more important than being actively part of this tawdry process.
3
Just to understand, they voted against an alcohol ban because they needed booze to deal with the fact that not a single person had stopped Roy Moore Child Molester from hitting on their own little girls?
Now about the ongoing machinations by the GOP over the course of decades that have denied the franchise outright to minorities and liberals.
Argument from false equivalence disgusts me.
@Mark Schaffer Ot was ok during the decades that Democrats subverted democracythrough their own gerrymandering, etc? In fact they are still doing it today.
1
The D's are not more moral or ethical or in any way better than the R's.
They are Coke and Pepsi.
We have to trash the WHOLE SYSTEM and start over.
Trump has shown us that if nothing else.
The WHOLE THING is broken.
4
This modest deception took aim at no particular group— racial ethnic, religious, gender—as Republican fear-mongering so often does. It did not spread hatred, or discredit democratic institutions, as Trump daily does.
To me, that’s an important distinction. Of course, the moral absolutists will dismiss such a distinction with a sneer—until, that is, their own ox is gored.
2
@Ron Cohen. Actually it took direct aim at the unrecovering alcoholics, one of Alabama's largest groups.
@Ron Cohen. Got it. Lying and cheating is okay as long as it's my side that is doing it, because we do it from a higher moral ground. I don't know; it seems to me that Dems are pretty adept at attacking with the race or religion cards, real or imagined, whenever necessary. I don't see a moral high ground from either side. It all disgusts me.
1
Stealth tactics, from whatever source, are poison for democracy and what's left of the public's trust for politicians.
I write about economics and ecology, the political economy, and recently wrote a long paper on electricity markets, so crucial to the struggle for renewables and the fight against climate disruption.
I wrote that despite the ringing American words "We hold these truths to be self-evident," I could find little to be self-evident about electricity markets. Indeed, in the age of Neoliberalism and Climate Disruption, of market fundamentalism, getting to the bottom of how they work or don't is detective work.
The tactics discussed here are part of a regrettable race to the bottom and cannot end well for what's left of our democratic Republic.
2
As a Democrat, I do not know why I feel conflicted about this. I know it is wrong. But if it is wrong, why was it OK when the Republicans did it during the presidential campaign? Maybe it is wrong morally, but completely legal in the eyes of the law? So conflicted.
One becomes susceptible to these operations by logging onto Facebook and Twitter. One deserves to be fooled if one seeks his or her ‘facts’ from these online social media platforms.
2
This is not going to help Jones' re-election chances in 2020 -- even though he claims to be unaware of two such campaigns now.
1
Thanks for setting us back, Mr. Osborne.
And Alex Jones says thanks, too.
2
You cannot say this was acceptable because Republicans do it. In fact, thats why it is not acceptable.
5
No surprise to read comments by conservatives crying hypocrisy. If you think you're going to shame us into not using effective tactics that conservatives use forget about it!
A serious conversation would acknowledge the problems here and the difficulty of combatting them.
The Russian pro-Trump operation clearly broke laws about identity fraud or theft. Did these Democratic operations in Alabama do so as well? Not clear as yet.
It would be problematical to rely on Facebook's own rules to prevent this mischief. We need actual laws but they would have to respect freedom of speech. We need a serious effort in Congress to devise ways to rein in these tactics. Perhaps the new Democratic majority will mount such an effort. I don't have much hope that the Republicans will be willing to engage in a serious way but maybe seeing that their own ox can be gored will motivate them.
Finally! It is nice to see that the Democrats are getting it right at last!
2
Another example of the dark side to social media. And an appalling example of the moral black hole at the heart of our democracy. Apparently, neither party is interested in anything but winning. Supporters claiming a moral imperative aren’t kidding themselves or us.
I’m deleting all those emails from Move On, Dem attorney generals, Senate and Congressmen campaigns and committees.
1
These sorts of tactics are very troubling but the Dems should use them until there is bipartisan support for banning them. Dems can’t win by going high if the GOP keeps dragging everyone into the muck.
@JNR2
Point to a single instance when Republicans went low and Democrats went high.
When Obama was inaugurated, the Republican minority of 41 did not filibuster or demand 24 hours of debate after cloture for each Obama cabinet appointee. They confirmed six on Inauguration day and another seven within the week. When Trump was inaugurated, the Democrat minority had lost the ability to filibuster thanks to Harry Reid, so they demanded 24 hours of in-session Senate time for every Trump nominee. And then criticized Trump for not filling cabinet positions and having a disorganized startup of his administration. It took over two months for Trump to have 13 cabinet members confirmed by the Democrat minority. It continues to frustrate Democrats that the Republicans have spent 24 hours to confirm a record number of judges while leaving the chief scientist position of the EPA vacant.
When the Obama FCC made a huge gift to their FAANG cronies, Republicans did not picket the home of the FCC chairman or threaten his children. When the Trump FCC reversed the regulations to benefit consumers, Democrats picketed the home of the FCC chairman and threatened his children. Classy.
Maxine Waters encourages harassment of Republicans if caught out in public. It's hard to recall any Republican House members suggesting that people wearing hope and change or winning the future caps should be evicted from restaurants.
Michelle had a great sound bite, unsupported by fact.
1
@ebmem
You seem to have missed my point, but given your post I won't feign surprise.
Progressives need to repudiate this tactic, and to repudiate those who engage in it. A little thought should make clear where the "they do it, so we have to do it" argument ends up taking you. Progressives ought to be (and I think usually are) about telling the truth as they understand it.
3
@Stephen Merritt
Progressives and Democrats are never going to repudiate their own bad acts. Democrats copied Russian propaganda techniques because they believe the end justifies the means.
It is a fake news that they copied Republicans. They copied Russian propaganda that Republicans are white supremacists. There are maybe 50,000 white supremacists in the US overall and only 100 of them vote, the rest trying to stay off government radar.
It is comparable to the Democrat narrative that the 10% of the population that lives in rural areas is somehow controlling the government of the 90%.
Facts matter.
1
I’m a Democrat. It’s kind of hard to complain about what the Russians did and do things like this at the same time. That being said, this is basically the entire purpose behind Faux News: lying to and deceiving voters. So it’s a tough one.
There is no need for such tactics. The evidence for that assertion is the recent election. Democrats did great while using little if any social media dirty tricks. The idea that Democrats need to do anything it takes to defeat President Trump and the Republican Party is self-evidently false. The recent election shows that the system works just fine. As will Mr. Mueller's report--which will come out one of these months or years. The left does not need to wildly exaggerate or over react.
2
@Gordon Wiggerhaus
Democrats used social media to slander Kavanaugh, which cost them three seats but gained them two. They used a false narrative to get two years of Democrat Senator in Alabama, a seat they will lose in 2020, particularly after the cheating has been revealed.
Democrats used social media to slander Republicans in 2018 and was able to win Republican seats from retiring Republican House members. The Pelosi 2018 takeover is not even going to last as long as the Pelosi 2006 takeover. When the Democrats who were elected as moderates respond to Nancy's next autocratic "vote for the bill so we can see what's in it" order, they will be voted out of office in 2020.
1
Trump's claim of fake news is true--and considerably more frequently than only twice a day.
2
These low-life tactics are shocking, despicable, entirely unacceptable, and it is a farce, positively Orwellian, for Matt Osborne to claim he had a "moral imperative" to represent the Democrat party as dishonest.
As for commenters who agree with these tactics: loss of truth in this nation is increasingly dangerous and contributing to it will backfire. Any party that engages in such tactics gives up the moral high ground and deserves to lose public trust and credibility. To the general public "false flags" contribute to an overall degradation of truth to the point where they will cynically believe and vote for no one. Is that what you want?
A nation cannot function without a consensual reality. If only there were laws. I'd throw the book at both the GOP and these Dem operatives alike.
4
@gw
The GOP did not break the rules or use these tactics. If you review the bill the House passed for election reform, no where in it is anything that would prohibit this behavior.
They want to get 10 years of the President's tax returns, but do not even suggest that Congressional returns should be public. They want to make the non binding suggestion that executive branch employees should put their assets into a blind trust but make no similar suggestions for any members of Congress, not even Pelosi or Schumer. Members of Congress are not even prohibited from trading securities on non-public knowledge gleaned from oversight of industry or pending legislation.
Democrats are great at passing bills that sound good and in getting RINOs to create the illusion that they are bi-partisan, like McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform. But then Hillary, with her keen legal mind, gets the FEC to silence Citizens United while moveon.org, Media Matters, the Clinton Foundation, unions, Open Society Foundations are permitted to continue with identical behavior.
When SCOTUS rules it is illegal to silence on the basis of opinion, Obama rages at his State of the Union lecture that overturning a single provision of a new law had overturned a century of precedent. And assigned Lois Learner to subvert the law of the land by preventing any right wing organizations from speaking.
The book needs to be thrown at Democrats for their totalitarian attempts to silence the loyal opposition.
1
False Flag News story: The person who did this may be a registered Democrat (I have no idea), but the New York Times headline is written to falsely flag the entire Democratic Party.
I believe that False Flag political conduct should be outlawed, and also, the Times should de-sensationalize their headlines a bit. It was, as usual, excellent reporting.
17
This are not progressive Democrats—at best they self-identify as such but that doesn’t make them fit the definition. The New York Times must correct the language granting these fools any legitimacy. You say “so-called white supremacists” but here you assert these people are progressive Democrats?!?!?
8
Republicans got a taste of their own medicine. Their constant efforts to divide the Democratic Party are well documented and well known. It happens on a daily basis. Right now they are using articles this website has written about Bernie Sanders to divide up the Democratic Party. Welcome to the internet.
33
@itsh3ltersk3lter Intentionally crafter false flag disinformation isn't "medicine." It's poison. And it's poisoning the principles of democracy, not just whoever one might happen to define as the opposition.
11
@itsh3ltersk3lter There's that Leftists double standard: outrage when your enemies do something but when you do it it's completely justified
9
@Hermaeous Mora I see a lot of "leftists" in these comments who are outraged by what a few "progressives" did. Some think it's justified, but by my count, most of us do not believe this is the right approach to try and win elections. We don't want to be the Republican Party.
5
"...a moral imperative..."
Yeah, I don't think that means what you think it means.
4
The problem for the American Taliban is that the ads were believable.
1
bravo. whatever it takes.
1
This is fraud and a new special election should be called in Alabama.
6
Indeed, same with the us presidential election 2016.
2
Oh, for Christ's sake. If the GOP jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge would the DNC do likewise? Democrats should be uncovering Republican lies and deceptions, not trying to copy them.
11
Where in this article can I find proof that the Dem Party of AL was behind this, suggested it and fully endorsed it??
Or was it just some Operative that was the Democratic equivalent of a Roger Stone character who did this?
Please...the NY Times is better than this.
9
As an old dyed-in-the-wool liberal — the people Ann Coulter and Tucker Carlson are very afraid of I guess because we’re so gosh darn evil — I have to say these kinds of duplicitous tricky tactics are unproductive, stupid and end up doing far more damage to the cause than good. Thus, the revelations here. Some young zealous Democrats are, I think, acting unwise and just making things worse. Kids, this is the party of FDR and Obama. Take their lead and lead with dignity.
8
@David Law
No need to suppose "gosh darn liberal". Patronizing, condescending, oversimplifying and obsessed with identity politics will do just fine.
3
@David Law The Democrats long ago abandoned FDR's ideologies...and Obama is just a corporate shill who is way overrated.
2
Ah, but now we have to ask the question: was Matt Osborne in fact a plant by conservative Republicans to make the Democrats look more sneaky and unethical? ;)
You can drive yourself crazy trying to keep all this straight. All I know is this: if Democratic and progressive groups think that things like this will help them in the long run, then they're nuttier than their GOP counterparts. The Dems' only hope is to keep to the high ground and count on cooler heads prevailing once His Trumpiness is out of office. If they sink to the GOP's level now, they'll lose whatever moral high ground they claim to occupy.
3
On one hand, yes, these tactics are immoral. on the other hand Moore lost, but only BARELY. If the people of Alabama can't use facts and reason to make responsible choices, I don't care if someone tricks them into making the right choice. By the way, there were state troopers assigned to high school games whose only job was to make sure Roy wasn't harassing the cheerleaders, and he was banned from the local mall. Do you know how hard it is to get banned from a small town mall? I wish facts mattered. I'm not sure they do in America. He said he was religious and that was enough to fool a near majority of voters, who were also inclined to ignore the accounts of many women with no reason to lie. Same old story, right Brett?
3
Your post assumes that Alabama voters would not have put Doug Jones in—made a “responsible” choice—without being tricked. That is a profoundly anti-democratic sentiment and, IMO, has no place in American politics, regardless of one’s political affiliation.
1
@Matt
The person who was head of security of the Gadsden Mall at the time said he was never banned. Also, I'm from the area and never heard any of these rumors about the cheerleaders. You should always question what people say or possibly make up for political reasons.
1
No. It's never appropriate for us to do something immoral because we know or think they do it too. That's always been a fundamental difference, to me, between liberals and conservatives. Just because conservatives are a bunch of whiny cry babies who win by any means doesn't mean we should be too.
3
No, you guys already proved you were whining crybabies on election night when you tried to win with the lousiest candidate possible. Or don’t you remember all the whining, sobbing and screaming?
1
A political party playing dirty is no surprise.
That it was the party favored by the Liberals and the media, that's the news.
7
If people are going to be outraged, perhaps they should be outraged at how gullible, and how deeply protective of ignorance, the average American is.
I hope revelations like this poison the well so severely that nobody of any political party ever puts stock in what they see on social media.
1
This is wrong and should certainly be condemned by all democratic leaders, the Pelosi's and Schumer's, Obama should be saying that this has no place in politics, distancing themselves from anyone condoning this behavior.
Trust is a fragile commodity, once broken, it is very difficult to repair. This type of practice should not exist, and though I do not consider myself naïve, I was surprised to hear that once found out, the democratic perpetrators sought to justify it. There is absolutely no justification.
3
False flag operations would be much less a threat if news media were doing their jobs.
4
I'd tend to associate prohibition with the Democrats these days. I live in a solidly blue enclave of the solidly blue state of MD that makes Salt Lake City look like Amsterdam. The state and local laws force me to buy all my booze in DC.
Just as conservatives claimed Russian interference didn’t effect the outcome of the election, I don’t see how trump his would have any negligible effect.
@Steveb
' I don’t see how trump his would have any negligible effect. '
In English please
2
@AutumnLeaf
I think it's supposed to be critical of Trump, but there's really no way to know.
1
These episodes completely discredit the democrats in the same way they claim that "Russian collusion" discredits Trump and the republicans. The "end justifies the means argument" is bankrupt and hypocritical. (Wasn't waterboarding and rendition defended for the greater good?). If it wasn't clear to everyone before, as it should have been, it is clear now: everybody is lying (democrats and republicans), no one, either republicans or democrats, can be trusted and they have never cared about you or your problems, they only care about themselves and their unfettered access to money and power.
7
@Toni
Alabama Democrats. National Republicans & Russian agents.
Something about false equivalency.
1
There is no excuse for this fraud by anyone for any reason. It is nearly as evil as Facebook's role in the 2016 election of Donald Trump. Facebook should face charges for aiding and abetting a foreign power (Russia) in their systematic interference in elections in the United States via social media targeting of Democratic voters with fake news and outright lies.
3
As many have noted, there is certainly no shock value in this. And whether we like it or not, there have always been dirty tricks in American politics, and enough suckers to believe them. The difference here, and this is NOT splitting hairs, is that there appears to be no foreign attempts to influence the election -- just good, old fashioned, American-made chicanery.
2
If you are a liberal, like me, and, like me, you find these tactics abhorrent, then perhaps it is possible that many decent conservatives also find them equally abhorrent when practiced against our politicians.
8
Shows how incredibly simple, easy, and cheap it is to run a disinformation campaign on the internet. Imagine this on a global scale with the main intent being to weaken democracies and undermine NATO...
2
I wish you wouldn’t call this the work of “progressive” Democrats. I doubt that the vast majority of progressives would agree that these tactics are representative of the group. I would call them extremist or far left or rogue progressives.
3
Hold on a minute. This headline implies that the Democratic party supported or enabled these campaigns. When Russia created these false campaigns to help Republicans win, nobody said “Republicans” were responsible. Is the Democratic party responsible for the actions of every progressive activist?
1
@R Biggs
The Russians created the illusion that Trump was a white supremacist. They were attempting to get an unelectable Republican nominee, who would easily be beaten by Hillary.
In fact, Russian propaganda went on during the eighteen months beginning in January 2015. The Obama administration was not at all concerned when Russian intervention was benefiting Trump at the expense of Republicans. It wasn't until July 2016 that Democrats saw anything wrong with it and the FBI started spying on Trump, rather than the Russians..
Democrats have been contending since July 2016 that Trump or his supporters were responsible for Russian interference.
Two groups of Jones supporters have admitted they used fake social media to help him win.
You are applying two sets of rules. Jones is not responsible unless he directed the false flag propaganda, but not if Democrats and Jones supporters did so without his direct involvement.
Democrats have contended that since Trump inadvertently benefited from Russian interference, he should be impeached.
If Democrats didn't have double standards they'd have no standards at all.
Since the election was close, shouldn't Democrats be lobbying for the resignation of Jones?
2
If folks are getting their facts from Facebook they ought to get their heads checked. This country will devolve to a citizenry whose 3 priorities will be unlimited wings, unlimited beer and 24/7 sports.
Ugh.
1. Use of these tactics will result in the loss of all moral authority by the Dems. Even if it’s one race.
2. Anyone who uses these tactics, if the tactics are subsequently exposed, won’t be trusted by their constituents once in office.
3. If en elected official could be exposed as having done this, maybe that official will be open to corruption to avoid exposure.
4. In an ideal world, worthy candidates should address constituents’ concerns and win their support in order to win.
5. Im surprised they felt the need to use these tactics to overcome an alleged child pursuer. It may have been another “trial.”
6. The Democrat won by only 22,000 votes out of 1.3 million. I get that Roy Moore wasn’t convicted of a crime but the evidence was pretty compelling that he had pursued teenage girls.
Ugh.
2
@Subscriber
1) That horse has already left the barn.
Alcohol should be banned . Latest 2018 study says the Ethyl Alcohol when inside the body metabolizes into acetaldehyde. That is a carcinogen and has a direct neurotoxic effect on the brain cells and all cells in the body. We know this now so people who continue to drink and kill themselves should not get health care or pay the highest premiums there are. They will be using the hospitals more. This latest severe warning needs to be on labels on the toxic alcohol bottles also.
1
@D.j.j.k.
Said by the same progressive mindset that brought us Prohibition.
The first act of progressive women after they got the vote was to get a Constitutional Amendment for prohibition.
@ebmem
No more free health care for you if you are abusing your self with this toxin. Who has the last laugh.
1
“If you don’t do it, you’re fighting with one hand tied behind your back,” said Mr. Osborne, a writer and consultant who lives outside Florence, Ala. “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
The people of America deserve better. The moral and cultural relativism of the left and right, and the adoption of tactics eschewed by Mr. Osborne, will only validate these abusive election strategies and continue to lead us on the path of self destruction as a nation.
4
@Hal Cherry
Trump and the Republicans did not engage in false flag use of social media.
Russians engaged in false flag propaganda, profiting left wing tech industries, in order to get Trump, the reality TV star and the Republican candidate least likely to beat Hillary, the Republican nomination.
No one in the Republican establishment wanted Trump to be their nominee. They preferred Hillary over Trump, as evidenced by the fact that JEB supporters turned over their opposition research to Hillary, and published the Bush cousin tapes that were 11 years old.
There is no moral equivalency here. Democrats take advantage of any dirty trick available.
Do you truly believe that the Clintons and the Democrats did not support Ross Perot in 1992 to skim off 17% of the popular vote from Bush I and allow Bill to win with 43% of the popular vote?
In all fairness, Trump supported Hillary in 2008 and was a lifelong Democrat. When Hillary's buddy Sid Blumenthal dropped the Birther Conspiracy, having waited too long to take it up, Trump ran with it. Bill and Hillary attended his wedding.
It was my opinion when he started running for the 2016 Republican nomination that he was doing it as a publicity stunt and a favor to Hillary to make Republicans look bad. Billary planned to use Trump to skim off third party votes from whoever the Republicans nominated, as they had with Perot.
The plan backfired, even with the Russian help.
@ebmem
I respectfully disagree, both sides are dirty and disgraceful in their conduct...and when did I mention anything about the Clintons? And why did you?
I love how the left spent 18 months in an perpetual outrage over the "Russian intervention" and yet, when confronted by actual evidence that their own party engaged in this kind of stuff, most readers here are of the "ends justify the means" stripe. More hypocritical nonsense from the left. It's either right or wrong, it can't be both. By the way, this kind of stereotyping of large swaths of America is why the left lost the presidential election. Deplorables, anyone?
10
@Antipater You're comparing illegal collusion with agents of a foreign power to false-flag operations between American political parties?
That's not in the same league; it's not even the same sport.
@Antipater
Absolutely. We must strive to eliminate the threat of Americans intervening in American elections.
@Antipater,
No, the "stereotyping of large swaths of America" is not why the Dems lost the presidential election. The consensus is that Russian meddling impacted the outcome of the election, but the degree can not be quantified, and there were other factors as well. As for outrage, all Americans, not just the left, should have been outraged at Russian interference. It seems that to you an anti-drink ad on Facebook is the equivalent of a foreign government helping elect our president. While neither is right they are not equivalent. Self righteousness doesn't become the Right when they indulge in voter suppression, gerrymandering, etc. to win.
No matter who does it, it's wrong and dishonest.
19
@John
Democrats seized the opportunity to cheat.
There is zero evidence that Trump, Trump supporters or Republicans have ever done this.
The strategy was used by the Russians to make Republicans appear to be white supremacists.
Democrats will use the ends justifies the means to use any corrupt practice they can find.
1
Boy this article fixates on the phrase “Progressive Democrats”. Either these operative were indeed correctly labeled here, or this is part of the Times wider mission to discredit and marginalize the progressive movement on behalf of the establishment centrist wing. Given the recent track record, I’m guessing the latter.
5
@Xoxarle The word "progressive" was used five times in the article, once of a particular individual and once about Net Roots gathering. I know it's appropriate about Net Roots, the named individual I don't know but why doubt this characterization?
You can guess whatever you want. I'd be willing to bet actual money that the Times correctly characterized the folks involved in these efforts.
Which doesn't mean much at all. Why would one be surprised that progressives would use strong tactics? And do we really want to bring a knife to a gun fight?
What we don't need is mindless squabbling among ourselves. The Times is a legitimate journalistic enterprise. Of course they get stuff wrong, journalists always do, it's the price of writing about stuff immediately. Of course all reporters and opinion writers have their points of view. Some try to stay true to an ideal of objectivity. That they don't always succeed is less important than that they're trying to do so at a time when so many are reveling in their biases.
Nope, do not believe a real progressive would do this.
They would attack back if attacked, but directly about an issue, openly.
And Yes the GOP is really slimy and lies and has shameless propaganda, and the Democratic party is scared of them and afraid of what the GOP will say about them at times, and so does not indulge in the same tactics often, but come on most politicians in the Democratic party feed from the same or a similar trough that the corrupt GOP feeds from.
Why doesn't NYT ever talk about the corruption by big business and the wealthy families of either party. And yes the Dems are not nearly so bad, but why, oh why not talk about the corruption of each?
I seem to remember they mentioned it in passing while urging us to vote for Cuomo and to hold his feet to the fire.
Please NYT if you are going to talk about wrongdoing, get to the largest wrongdoing. Who are you protecting?
2
In soccer, there are “own goals,” when a player, through bad luck or poor decisions, deflects a ball into his own team’s net.
But I would have to look to American football—and the occasion on which a player once recovered a fumble and ran triumphantly into his own end zone to score for the other team—to find an apt metaphor for what these fight-fire-with-fire progressives have done. This is going to make Fox News’ greatest hits album.
2
@Puddleglum They got a Democrat elected to the senate from Alabama. That's pretty far from an own goal in my book.
Why should people from other states interfering in an internal state election be any better than people from another country? Why is a bunch of Hollywood movie stars from tinseltown interfering in Alabama politics somehow more acceptable than a bunch of Russian mafia dudes? It will be hilarious to see them try to criminalize 'outside interference' in elections and have the rules apply equally to everybody. They won't be able to do it.
7
@david
"Why should people from other states interfering in an internal state election be any better than people from another country?"
That question was settled in 1865.
@david You know, derisively equating Californians and Russians isn't what I had in mind when I imagined people embracing the global community, but I guess I'll take it. At least it means that you view everyone in the world as the same level of sub-human.
@Steve Paradis Really? Then why not just have nationalized elections for 100 senators at large, instead of still having state elections?
It's war. The 99% are under attack - literally. Our rent masters are pulling out all the stops.
Times have changed. Falsity abounds. Photos can be shopped. We have a new technology to master.
Perhaps this is the best way to deal with the conservative mentality, clinging to their security blankets like frightened babies, is to use it against them. Whatever it takes, because we can NOT let them be in charge of our world.
They have shamed America my entire life with evil wars, jailing, and weapons proliferation. America, the richest country, is also about the most un-equal. Republicanism must be defeated.
Republicanism must be cut from the Democratic Party, also.
1
Yeah this is bad, but getting your news from Facebook is worse.
It just seems silly to go this low or to think that you'd need to go this low when the person whom you're attempting these tactics on is a pedophile. Maybe just run with that instead of drudging up prohibition, which has been settled since the 21st amendment was ratified way back in 1933.
1
So what . The Dems had uphill fight with all the major lying and corruption the culture of corruption GOP was legally getting away with. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
@D.j.j.k.
Uh huh. And sometimes 'fighting fire with fire' means the whole area gets burned to the ground. Two moral wrongs do *not* make a right. Ever.
3
@Ana
The Dems are not as corrupt as the culture of corruption you support. We are not going to be walked on or loose our planet from the GOP support of toxic coal.
If the culprits were Republicans, they would get big raises and recognition for their innovativeness and cleverness.
We have long passed the point where the major political parties, and probably the minor ones too, will do anything to win, since the righteous ends justify the nefarious means.
Our collective bubble has certainly been burst, about both the political process and the media who are not just reporters but advocates for certain parties, candidates, and policies. In a sense, that is perfectly fine, and we need to expect news and commentary not just biased but manipulated. And any expectation that social media, with the best reflection of human nature of any media, would provide honest objective information was naive at best.
I suspect that true believers, on the left and right, are not as much dismayed by this state of affairs as by the success the other side might achieve. For the rest of us, we need some new mechanisms to identify and support more objective and complete information.
No one should be surprised at this. Republican and Democrats more times than not are interchangeable labels often describing the same individuals at different times of their life. Any government that continues to grow administratively and bureaucratically is merely trying to correct the negative results of its last effort at ordering society by proclamation.
Democracies are only slightly less prone to using propaganda tactics to spread their message . The greatest danger is simply having good laws administered badly. Why don't we dismantle any portion of government that gets out of control either in terms of size or mission? Even if the department itself isn't abolished, when threatened with extinction bureaucrats (like human beings everywhere) often offer change and revision that make both good sense and good economics.
2
Nothing new to say, but just to be counted--there is no valid justification for these tactics.
7
Knowing that Facebook allows this sort of thing is a reminder not to accept as reality anything just because it comes from Facebook. The chances for fake news on that site make it clear for the informed reader to ignore that site as a source of valid information, just as phishing emails are detected and ignored. The real media, such as the Times, provide a reliable source of information from responsible journalists. Trump confuses the issue by telling his acolytes that real news is fake news. Posting fake news to achieve any purpose is criminal behavior that is permitted by law.
@Harpo
The NYT is hardly an objective arbiter of the news, even off its opinion page.
Try reading its fact check articles. Even when Trump makes statements that are factually correct, they disagree with his opinion and then call his opinion fake. The same thing is true of virtually all fact check columns in all supposedly legitimate newspapers.
Pelosi interrupted a presentation by a Trump official by asserting she didn't agree with the experts facts. Facts are facts, and Democrats and the NYT like to pretend they are not.
1
So, the guy who created this campaign believes he had "a moral imperative" to do so because Republicans do it? I am ashamed of the party I belong to if this is a generally held belief. Don't you dare complain about Donald J. Trump winning the presidential election as a result of Russian intervention if you're deceiving voters as well. Any Democrat who supports this kind of deception is no different than the opposing party. I wish I had known about this sooner.
4
@EMiller
There is no evidence the Republicans engaged in false flag propaganda.
1
So now the Dems must be pristine and pure, while the Repubs run roughshod, and trample over every value that we hold dear. This article suggesting moral equivalency rings very hollow!
2
@alank
Provide a single instance where the Republicans ever engaged in this behavior.
1
As a democrat, I place trust in my party to uphold basic principles of fairness and the electoral process. Whenever either party engages in shenanigans like this, it undermines the trust of voters in our democracy. By wearing down America's faith in its own elections, these tactics benefit America's enemies far more than they benefit either political party. Both parties need to stop engaging in these tactics, and place our nation's founding principles and long-term stability above their own selfish interests and short-term election goals.
1
I might be off base with this, but I do not see mention of the Alabama Democratic Party either sponsoring our endorsing this tactic. If that is true, it is not a factual statement to say that Democrats are behind this scheme.
Steven Colbert may be a Democrat (I don't know). If he is, and mocks Trump, or calls Roy Moore nasty names, it is not reasonable to blame Democrats for his speech. The same is true of some anonymous American person posting fake FB memes.
Aside from that, this whole thing rubs right up against sarcasm. Someone could read The Onion as fake news or deliberate deception, rather than irony. Some probably do, especially when their ox is gored. From my point of view the dry Alabama campaign does a nice job exploiting a split in the Republican coalition with a big dose of irony. (Note to self - don't go to Alabama).
1
@Some Dude
Tough position to take when the Democrats are claiming Trump should be impeached despite any evidence that Republicans or Trump ever engaged in improper behavior.
1
An excellent reason to require the disclosure of money given to organizations and of individuals or organizations (with key personnel named) sponsoring, operating, running etc. web sites. Need more sunshine.
Again- is this any different in history and culture, except for the internet venue and potential reach? What are the structural factors allowing it and how can they be eliminated?
1
Does anybody besides me smell a double false flag deception here? That is, Repulicans secretly pretending to be Democrats secretly pretending to be Republicans?
12
@Steve
Ha - because it clearly couldn't have been the Democrats. They would not do something like that.
3
@Steve No. What I smell is an opportunity for Democrats to make clear that they will not subscribe to the same GOP deceptions which we have been decrying. I really don't care who is behind it and what their motive is. It is wrong and it is in the end destructive to the Democratic agenda.
1
@Steve
It's not as if Democrats would do anything like promote Perot so that he could skim off 17% of Bush's popular vote so that Bill could win with 43%.
The Democrat plan for 2016 was for Trump to run as a third party candidate after he lost the Republican nomination, to repeat their 1992 strategy.
Russian interference was designed to damage Republicans by representing that they were white nationalists and split off the status quo voters. Instead, it backfired.
Think about it rationally. Trump endorsed Hillary in 2008, was a lifetime Democrat, was never going to be elected by the Republicans. Mess up the Republican field with his criticism, much of it deserved, other of it just gratuitous and clear the way for Hillary., who had no Democrat competition.
that's plausible, while Republicans pretending to be Democrats isn't.
It’s worth pointing out: these tactics kept a serial child molester out of one of the highest offices of government.
15
@A
Well,that's a silver lining, but it doesn't excuse this action, or any other kind of deception in an election. Who gets to decide which candidate deserves to be brought down by deception? If they wanted to stop a child molester from being elected, the Dems (disclosure: I am a registered Dem) should have hammered harder on the child molestation rather than undermining the democratic process. If the people of Alabama prefer a child molester to a Democrat, well, they get what they deserve. Maybe holding office would have kept Moore too busy to elect any more children.
2
@A
Was he a child molester? Perhaps my party lied about that too. After all, given how terrible the republicans are, wouldn’t it be perfectly fine to smear the candidate with any charge that gets the job done?
Why worry about Russia targeting our elections with lies when we do the same thing with no penalty.
2
Well, you could reference his accusers’ sworn testimony and see if you find that convincing. I believe them.
Perhaps the biggest reason for Democrats and their supporters to immediately stop these practices is to prevent fodder to Trump’s repeated claims about ‘Fake news’ - he only needs to be right once for all the other lies to pass. Moreover, if Democrats are trying to have the higher moral ground with respect to the administration’s scandals, this kind of behavior cannot be tolerated, or that advantage will be lost in the eyes of the beholder, even if there aren’t exact equivalencies between the 2 parties. It’s the ‘optics’
Alas, as women and minority groups have long known, you need to be better than your competition, because there isn’t really a level field when one side has more power and is willing to play dirty.
7
@lm
"As women and minority groups have long known, you need to be better than your competition"
And how's that been working out?
Losers often prefer self-righteousness to winning. It gives them an excuse. Makes them feel like a winner.
And that's why they lose. They lack mental toughness.
@Fourteen Uh.... "mental toughness" does not require lax moral standards. Jes' sayin'.
@Liz R
It does in War. And against oppression. We are programmed to always be moral, to sacrifice.
You have to be mentally tough to stay the course to go against your programming. It's not easy for a naturally moral person to be immoral, and that's good.
I disagree with Matt Osborne, Democrats SHOULD stop deploying false flag information and using other underhanded practices unilaterally, but with the threat that they will be used if Republicans do not stop. Otherwise, average voters will not be able to believe any information they read and our democracy will be harmed even more. Perhaps it is already too late, but I would rather believe in the possible if rules can catch up with technology a bit more. The same goes gerrymandering voting districts and other 'low' tactics. As Democrats come back into power they should make practices fair again, not abuse power.
7
This sort of 'false flag operation' highlights that it isn't just the Russians who are doing it. By mimicking the tactics of the Russians, the "Dry Alabama" campaign has just made it harder to blame outsiders for our own political upheaval.
Mr. Osborne is on very shaky ethical ground when he says: “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.” Does his moral imperative include the destabilization of American democracy? Many Americans are becoming so confused at our political system that they now believe it to be unstable.
8
My problem with this little partisan game in particular was the use of the question of liquor laws and regulation, which are serious issues. Abuse of these laws can lead to the destruction of lives, and families, and along with other serious problems, should be abjured as a subject used for political trickery.
3
I think misrepresenting your political purpose oversteps the line. I don't mean this as a right/left issue. On basic principle, freedom of speech applies to the individual. Your words are directly attributable to you as an individual. You are the one speaking. Speaking in the voice of a caricature misrepresents the underlying purpose of the First Amendment. Transparency is important to how we interpret speech.
Many use pen names and aliases to disguise their speech. However, requesting some amount of anonymity in presenting your views is reasonable PROVIDED you are still representing your intentions honestly. We can recognize satire when satire is presented as satire. Conducting real world human experiments using social media in order to influence political outcomes doesn't seem to measure up. This sounds more like the Stanford prison experiment only we cannot end the study.
Perhaps the conduct is legal. However, these practices are certainly unethical. If Democrats are currently marching on an anti-corruption platform, perhaps they should tack on a rider addressing the issue of political transparency.
2
I have never trusted anyone who has so much certainty in their cause that dishonesty can be justified. These tactics remind me of the Christian Right’s flakey excuses for supporting Trump, and if they prevail it will be the eventual undoing of our nation. Such politics needs to be left to the Republicans. The lies and cheating are what people abhor about Trump and his minions, and yet at the same time they want to emulate him? Like Trump, it sounds self serving.
2
All is fair in love and war. It’s about time the Democrats stepped up.
This isn't the first time the Democrats have used these tactics.
3
The Dems learned from the Lee Atwater, Roger Ailes and Karl Rove playbook...it was bound to happen.
4
Republican misinformation campaigns convinced a significant number of voters that John McCain fathered an illegitimate child, swift boated John Kerry so well that they named the process, and don't even get me started on birthers, the deep state, fast and furious, pizza gate, and email-gate.
I don't know which is worse, Dems stooping this low, or that they're so bad at it.
5
Geez, let’s lower ourselves to the Republican playbook tactics, shall we? That would certainly make us the hypocrites we don’t want to be and evil twins. Deception is the antithesis of integrity. Integrity will eventually always win.
3
Just imagine. There are folks out there trying to deceive the public in order to win elections. I am shocked ... shocked!!
Hey, it's free speech. Just like Citizens United.
6
Unacceptable! Democrats get a clue we don’t need more propaganda in this country. It just undermines our entire society.
10
Certainly the Democrats wouldn't do something as underhanded as this. It must have been the Russians - as part of the collusion with Trump!
5
“A moral imperative to do whatever it takes “.
2
Scurrilous. This puts the DNC on the same page as the Russians who interfered in our national election.
5
@carnap
You clearly didn't read the article. This had absolutely nothing to do with the DNC the DCCC or the National Democratic Party.
7
@carnap It puts the DNC on the same page as the GOP.
2
To all you left wing advocates that involuntarily throw up at the sound of Trump's voice and then run down the street screaming "Russia!, Russia!, Russia!," episodes like the fake "Dry Alabama" reinforce the idea to us Deplorables out here in our huts that the Left will do anything, say anything to wipe out all political opposition on its glorious march to a single party utopia.
I know, I know, I can already hear the scathing rebuttals that in this case it was just some isolated, but lovable, scamps, or that in comparison to the tactics employed by those Nazis Re-Puke-li-Cons this is but lint in a hurricane and everyone should just get over it.
That great American philosopher, Pogo, captured our current state with “We have met the enemy and he is us,” while Lincoln with perfect poetry summarized our times with "A house divided cannot stand." I fear not the lint but the hurricane.
15
@K. Johnson I'm one of those left wing advocates you mention in your post, one of those who find our president unequal (to say the least) to the office he holds, but in this instance I totally agree with you.
1
How easily we all are manipulated! Eyes wide open now, folks, because in this next election cycle, this manipulation will get increasingly sophisticated, and everyone will be doing it!
Honesty and ethics are OUT the window, we can't trust anyone to tell the truth, ever again.
All together now, hands in the air like we used to do way back in the 60's. " . . . we won't get fooled again!"
2
This shows how much the Republican and Far Right tactics have damaged our way of life. No one would be shocked if the Republicans did this but we all should be shocked that a group of Democrats did this. Republican/Trump dirty tricks, lies, and smear campaigns seem so normal that some stupid Democrats have adopted the Republican tactics.
1
@Jeff
Ha - that's an incredible deflection. Republicans did not invent the game of deception. That game was alive and well long before the US was even invented. Apparently according to your world view, Democrats have no responsibility for anything they do since some Republican once did something similar. Pathetic.
2
"Both Alabama projects were devised shortly after the exposure of the full dimensions of Russia’s fraudulent use of social media in the 2016 presidential race, when thousands of Facebook and Twitter accounts posed as Americans."
To be clear, there is to this date no known verifiable evidence of involvement by the government of the Russian Federation in any such activity, which is what the above statement falsely implies.
This is an example of why so-called mainstream media including the NYTs gets accused of promoting fake news, and why Scott Shane's reputation as a credible journalist is increasingly in peril.
3
This sort of conduct undermines public confidence in the electoral system - as if that wasn’t already damaged enough. We’re better than this. There are effective ways to play smart politics while maintaining our moral high ground. Shame on those who employ these underhanded tactics!
2
Not a great look for my people, but did we already forget Roy Moore is literally a pedophile and still almost won the election?
7
If democrats don't seize the mantle of ethical decency and instead pursue the Machiavellian strategies of the GOP our democracy is likely doomed.
When Bill Clinton got away with his unethical sexual behavior it paved a path for Trump.
If we can't win by taking a higher path, our country has earned its fate.
5
A similar group, populated by democratic strategists that called themselves, "Republicans for Edwards", provided a space for Republicans who were disaffected with David Vitter. The atmosphere is so toxically politically partisan that republicans needed to feel like they were joining a movement from within the party in order to publicly advocate for voting across party lines. Beyond social media, this group also distributed yard signs...at the time of Vitter's loss, the creators of this group were exposed in the media, while many credited their platform as a deciding factor in swaying the electorate.
1
Democrats need to stop attacking each other but the Media amplifies the inconsequential. How many times do I need to hear Republicans Leaders (not some member of their voting block, that actual leadership) talk about Democrats wanting "Open Boarders" or "Killing unborn babies" with absolutely ZERO articles from NYT pushing back on the lie? No, you have to dig something up from a state that almost elected a known pedophile.
I simply don't care about this tactic. It is being used because of the failure of our media to give proper weight to stories. Worse than this has come directly from the mouth of our POTUS and every article published is about a wall instead of funding the government which is the real issue to address right now.
Stop being a mouthpiece and do your job NYT
5
"Matt Osborne, a veteran progressive activist who worked on the project, said he hoped that such deceptive tactics would someday be banned from American politics. But in the meantime, he said, he believes that Republicans are using such trickery and that Democrats cannot unilaterally give it up."
Wrong. Go directly to political jail. Do not pass go. Do not do any more work for any other candidate. Go to an ethics class. Go to twenty ethics classes. Look up "ethics" and try to live and work ethically.
16
House Democrats take this opportunity to pass a law outlawing such deception. Let us see if the Republicans have the integrity to vote for it.
4
Throughout history oppressed people eventually hit back in their small way - and the oppressors get hysterical and call them terrorists. That's the Republican playbook. It's called false equivalence.
Bullies use it all the time.
3
This reminds me of that scene at the end of The Prestige when Christian Bale says to Hugh Jackman, "You were always afraid to get your hands dirty. Not anymore." Bale is the Republicans and Jackman is the Democrats.
Spoiler alert:
Neither character wins in the end
2
For those complaining, how is this any nastier than, say, Democrats backing Libertarian spoilers while trying to keep Greens off the ballot, and Republicans doing the reverse?
You don't make policy with good intentions. You only get a seat at the table *if you win*, and standing aside looking prim while claiming that your hands are perfectly clean doesn't turn a loss into a win.
1
I'm disappointed. Democrats stand to gain a lot more by being the party of honorable behavior than they do by dirty tricks, especially small-bore ones like this. It is Republicans who embraced the values of cheating and lying, and they should be allowed to own them wholly.
4
If anything at all, social media IS fake news. trump does it all the time on twitter.
I can't even pretend to care about this as long as we have the republicans ignoring all kinds of unethical and often criminal behavior to advance themselves all these decades.
7
These actions may be legal. They are certainly repugnant. It's the latter that will matter.
Jefferson had a line somewhere about how a cause is often damaged much more by its inept defenders than by its opponents. It's a crack worth remembering when confronted with some blather about "fighting with one arm tied behind your back".
It may be frustrating, but ultimately more is achieved by fighting with one arm tied behind your back than by fighting dirty.
6
An attempt is being made by the NYT and other established media outlets to stifle rivals through regulation. It will only curtail free speach a little, for now.
True journalism requires the truth to come out and let the chips fall where they may.
Kudos to the NYT for exposing chicanery on all sides.
19
When the RNC apologize for their national campaign of voter suppression and Donald Trump comes clean on his collusion with Vladimir Putin, I'll be impressed that the author of this screed has a pure heart.
2
Only if you want to play into the hyper-tribalism of the day is this shocking. Both political parties fight with brass knuckles. If we had four major political parties they would all use brass knuckles. This is why rational people do not put religious faith into political people, and why you are allowed to change your vote as you see fit.
25
@Don
I expect better behavior from Democrats. If you cannot win honesty, then what's the point? You're just as bad as the people we're trying to unseat.
1
In War, when they go low, you go lower. We need more "Play to Win" thinking. Don't ask permission, do it and then apologize.
In War the end justifies the means. If the other side does it - then do it better and may the best man win. That's how you level the playing field.
If someone hits you first, you have the right to hit back. If someone lies to you first, you have the right to lie to them.
Note that you don't have a right to do it first.
When they cheat, your fairness is stupidity - because the system is rigged. Tut-tutters insisting we should always bring a knife to a gun fight are traitors.
In War, there are no rules. The hand-wringers don't seem to realize you can go back to the old rules of normality after you win. Instead, they'd rather be self-righteous and lose.
38
@Fourteen
So in your mind, we are in a civil war and there are no limits to the tactics that you would have your side adopt. Even actual warfare does have rules. Let's hope you will rethink your position and at least oppose the use of poison gas, biological weapons and area bombing in the next political campaign.
36
@Fourteen. That is a fallacy. You cannot go back. This is a cynical philosophy. And I see we are in the process of choosing how we embody our country. Do we do this in marriage, relationships, our friendships, teach our children this? The highest offices of the land we say, ' that's ok, do whatever it takes to get you there and then we will all go back to being friends.'. We negotiate with other countries on the basis of what? Do you go to your doctor, lawyer, business contractor and purposefully lie? Or believe they are lying to you? Truth outs regularly, and the consequences of cynical 'go low' behaviour results in nothing good.
23
@PWR
I do oppose poison gas, biological weapons and area bombing - unless they use them.
Instead of moral philosophy, read about Okinawa for the rules of War. Or consider the Atomic weapons used against Japan.
2
> 'If you don’t do it, you’re fighting with one hand tied behind your back,' said Mr. Osborne, a writer and consultant who lives outside Florence, Ala. 'You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.'
The problem with this attitude is that it presumes that a person can know exactly how how their actions will affect the world. But this isn't the case -- the world is much too complicated for it to be possible to take a set of potential actions, calculate the net gain, and pick the action that results in the highest gain. To do that, you need to model the world very closely, which is not possible.
This is why moral codes (and laws) are necessary -- a list of things that you just won't do. That solution isn't perfect, but it's a compromise that works, and we have thousands of years of stable societies demonstrating that. Everyone constantly defining their own set of rules based on their own calculus of cause and effect doesn't work.
Even based on Mr. Osborne's own puported goals, it's unclear if his actions will pay off. Yeah, Roy Moore lost, but this story could easily hurt the Democrats nationally and play a part in another four years of Trump. Oops.
6
Recently, there was an effort to almost permanently gerrymander NJ state by the democrats. It was scuttled based on outrage it elicited from many grassroots democrat organizations. One of them put it succinctly, "We don't need to cheat to win".
It was a proud moment for Democratic supporters in NJ. I am shaking my head at this continuing news from Alabama. I would call for Mr. Jones to take the high road and resign to set an example for others to follow. Otherwise he would be no different from many of Trump enabling Republican Senators that I abhor.
4
Both Democrats and Republicans have been using Big Data and Tech to target the opposition.
President Obama had significant free help from Google and Facebook in campaigning and implementing his policy.
The pay back was public regulatory and tax policy that favored Tech, Banking and Finance at the expense of small business and heavy industry.
Now Linkedin is heavily financing on line disinformation.
You could not make this up!
2
I'm very torn. I think these tactics are flat out gross. Of course, they only appeal to those whose lack of critical thinking and follow through allow them to be misled (which as we've seen is a good percentage of the population). But it's also nice to see Dems finally using Republican strategies of the last 20 years by fighting fire with fire.
2
This embarrassing and should be addressed at the highest levels of the party. The only way for DEM's to separate themselves from the GOP is to demonstrate that they take integrity and truth seriously. Instead of playing the same game, speak to truth and vociferously open the eye's of those that are being deceived.
2
Facebook should be required to do a bare minimum of fact checking before promoting sponsored content. TV stations would never be allowed to accept ads that claim soda pop cures cancer. What's the difference here?
1
The "everybody lies, cheats and steals" defense of one's own duplicitous actions is indefensible. Democracy loses and withers.
While no one political party and all of their respective candidates behave honorably and honestly 100% of the time, Republicans have appeared to excel in the area of devious and disreputable campaign tactics. long before the advent of social media. Perhaps the most infamous individual in recent times known for these sleazy tactics of deception and discrediting one's opponents through misinformation campaigns and fraudulent character assassinations, was Karl Rove in his close association with George W. Bush's Texas governor campaigns and Presidential campaigns. Aided and abetted by right wing media outlets like FOX News, candidate and now Oval Office occupant, Donald Trump, has embraced mendacity so ferociously, the lines between fact and fiction have been blurred for many Americans. When truth is under siege and suspect, bad decision always follow.
4
Mr. Osborne is so very wrong to engage in this sort of deception in order to win a political race. So very wrong! Following this path leads people to distrust politics. It will eventually destroy citizens willingness to participate in our democracy.
5
When Democrats start to use Republican tactics, like lying about their opponents to get elected, they corrupt themselves and are no better than Republicans. Democrats have always been about the truth, Republicans about lies on issues and their positions and personal attacks on their opponents. Democrats are in trouble, but going over to the dark side will cost them even more votes and demoralize their constituency. As a life-long Democrat, I am really upset about this.
3
This has tainted the election and tainted the reputation of Senator Doug Jones. However, this does not take away from the fact that there was a "get out the vote" effort amongst black women in particular and women in general in Alabama. My Mother who was 91 at the time and in terrible pain from a fall, stopped on her way to respite care, and was wheeled in in her wheelchair at her polling place to cast her vote for Doug Jones. She did not want the vile Roy Moore to be elected, and was bound and determined to do her part to see that he was not. She helped turn Huntsville and Madison County blue that day. It was the last vote she ever cast.
Who won the day for Doug Jones? Was it a sophisticated political machine using social media? Or was it the hard work of black women and other women in Alabama who did? We cannot know.
One thing not mentioned in this article is Senator Shelby. He told voters he would not vote for Roy Moore, and urged fellow Republicans not to vote for Moore and to write in another Republican's name instead. How much did that influence the election?
With the advent of social media, political dirty tricks are becoming rampant and reaching a wider audience. This needs to be rooted out before an election, not after, as in this case and the national election of 2016. Part of the onus for this belongs to social media.
The thirst for political power in this country has left both parties devoid of a moral compass. It is depressing. How do you sort it all anymore?
5
No!!! Progressives use the same tactics to win elections as Republicans? Say it ain't so.
Anyone who is surprised by this revelation needs to re-evaluate their naive view of the world. In politics, winning is everything and there are no hard and fast rules anymore for either side.
And for those who will take the stance that because their opponents have no ethics the Democrats can't either, well let's talk MAD (mutually assured destruction).
3
Even when famous liberal Richard Nixon was running for California's governorship against Pat Brown, the Democratic Party operatives harried him with this sort of misdirection play.
If Nixon was campaigning in a foreign-language neighborhood, the Republicans might not have been able to read the signs but they were sometimes harsh criticism of Nixon put there by admitted dirty tricksters.
At least one ''Tea Party'' candidate in New York a few years ago was a solidly loyal Democrat who only ran to siphon votes away from the Republican. That was part of why Kirsten Gillibrand won her Senate seat.
There there were the illegally counted Al Franken votes in 2008 in that smoked-filled room recount.
2
I literally feel sick to my stomach. Although I am overjoyed Roy Moore was denied the opportunity to peddle his policies and politics in the U.S. Senate, the biggest impact of these false flag tactics is to further diminish American democracy. Shame on those who believe it is a "moral imperative" to engage in this behavior.
230
@Skeptical Observer
Truthfully, I thought it was funny. It wasn't a lie about Roy Moore, and it was a creative way to highlight the absurdity of Moore's "Christian" interpretation of how laws should be made and enforced.
On principle, things that appear on the web should be transparent as to source and intention. Good luck with ever making that practically enforceable, and until that happens, this kind of prank is legal. If it propagated a slanderous lie, that is a different matter categorically, but I don't see that here.
3
@Skeptical Observer We have been corrupted and soiled. The contagion of duplicity has infected the entire body politic.
@Skeptical Observer
I wonder how many Democrats are going to be elected in Alabama going forward. I really think the party is damaged long term by doing this. In every election for the next 50 years Reb. are going to use this to say you can not trust anything that speaks against their candidates.
VERY short sighted.
There is no way to prohibit any of this. It is all legal under the First Amendment, and any attempts to outlaw it will be found unconstitutional. The Supreme Court has consistently found that anyone can publish anything, provided they're not engaged in fraudulent commercial activity.
1
@Jonathan
Since most of our elected representatives are clearly for sale to the highest bidder, does this not constitute commercial activity?
2
It’s basically false advertising. That’s not protected speech.
Signed,
A staunch Democrat who’s horrified that her party is employing these con artist’s techniques
1
The Jones/Moore election needs to be nullified!!! Just as soon as the Clinton/Trump election is nullified!!!
25
Please -- this kind of stuff has been done forever. Anyone remember the primary campaign between GW Bush and John McCain in S. Carolina in 2000? When various rumors were spread about McCain having a "black" child? Remember Lee Attwater...who was famous for his dirty tricks (Willie Horton?)....
3
@Vicki
There is a HUGE difference between spreading lies and advertising actual news events.
Willie Horton did REALLY bad things after Gov. Michael Dukakis let him out of prison early.
Atwater simply made sure everybody in the country heard about it.
2
This seems awful only because people still have an expectation that FB delivers anything resembling truth. Like the "you're gonna die if you don't forward this" chain emails of olden days (still swallowed by some suckers), this technique will lose steam as people gradually wise up. I fear a knee jerk reaction attempting to ban the practice, which would probably sweep up all sarcastic political speech - the only kind worth sharing.
2
I expect that the Republican hypocrites will be duly "outraged, outraged" to discover false flag operations by some Progressives. Perhaps this will provide them the political will to effectively deal with this issue legislatively.
7
@Paul And note that Doug Jones called for a federal investigation after the first operation was made public by the Times. Have any Republicans tried to get to the bottom of operations that have benefited them?
2
The left has been utilizing these kind of tactics regularly over the past few years. In fact much of their argument against Trump is based on similar manipulations and distortions of the truth. And the media, deliberately or not, gives voice and credibility to all of it. Guess this can be filed under "fake news."
4
@rpe123
You mean the same Trump who is on record lying more that 1000 times so far as president? How's the weather in the up-side-down?
2
@Some Dude
Trump's little fibs and exaggerations generate conversation and debate and are constantly called out by the media. It is partly Trump's way of bringing attention to the issues. They are dwarfed by the big lies and manipulations coming from the left.
1
@rpe123
Spoken like a true Party Before Country partisan. Would you care to share any examples?
What an interesting article, replete with the usual justifications: Those other people are horrible! Unfortunately, the voters are too stupid to appreciate the superiority of our policies and our candidates. Therefore, we must lie and cheat to ensure our righteous cause wins.
The moral dissonance of such thinking is evident to a four-year-old kid. Yet, adults continue to tell themselves that they are justified in this behavior. Amazing.
Some commenters here seem to believe that this is a position forced upon progressives by those evil conservatives. However, you are lying to yourselves if you believe the actions of others force you to become a liar and a cheat. No, it was always in your heart and you simply did what you wanted to do. (See the Gospel of John, Chapter 8, Verse 44 for further illumination.)
Turn the situation around and my comment works equally well against conservative tricksters. Is it any wonder that half of American voters don't vote? This story validates their common refrain, "They're all liars, anyway."
14
There is a huge difference in Americans trying to get an upper hand in an election by trolling, etc. versus a foreign power (Russia). Huge
12
Any time you see the tag line “Sponsored” or “Promoted” on any media site, mentally insert “Warning”. The content has been paid for, may not be true, may be of dubious origin, and, if followed blindly, may cause harm.
4
Trump has accomplished in bringing out the worst in many of us. Hate is good!
I feel ambivalent about this. To be fair, I felt ambivalent about Russia's efforts too. If there is no truth behind an ad, even if it is a false construction, it won't resonate. The Russian operation would not have had any effect if its adverts didn't hit nerves. That being said, I'm terrified by a future in which fact and fiction get mixed together in such a willful way.
25
@Scribbles -
The Russian operation would not have resonated if the Democratic candidate had established a presence throughout the campaign instead of vanishing into the safe space of the donor class.
11
@ScribblesWell, sure it wouldn't resonate if there were no truth behind it. So what? That just shows you can do wrong in an intelligent way. It doesn't justify the use of the intelligence.
1
@Scribbles
If your ambivalent then get the DNC to contact Mueller and convince him.
1
this is in principle the same as the Russian intervention. However the scale is different, so the effect would be different. As noted the Murdoch press lies all the time. So we need to decide if this is illegal or constitutionally protected speech, and whether such protection if it exists, extends to foreigners and foreign state actors. Morally flying a false flag is a bad idea under certain circumstances, but not all. Remember the guy who got Nixon to stand with some Chinese Americans with the banner in Chinese: vote for Kennedy. That was funny. So you have to be able to tell the difference, and perhaps that is why some of this deserves legal protection or only mild regulation.
1
Politics is dirty and underhanded. Americans, in my opinion, have tended NOT to follow the politics, as much as they follow the policies (that is the platforms, the issues that they want passed into law or where they want the money spent). But they go hand-in-hand. Always have and always will, unless we find real solutions to expose the politics and the moneythat supports the issues & platforms that they align,whether it is overt (most Democrats supporting healthcare for all; most Republicans supporting hawkish and strong national security policies) or by covert (most Republicans and even many Democrats manipulating the media to make stories seem factual) means.
Ironically, what this Trumpian era has exposed is more transparency in politics, where the covert is more readily exposed (not that politics is becoming more overt). I suggest a three-fold solution could entail: Laws requiring accountability in overt and covert political scheming; candidates who have a healthy respect for the rule of law and hold a moral compass; and, a strong press and citizenry that are interested in holding candidates and others accountable for their dirty tactics. Otherwise, we, Americans, can continue to remain on autopilot, pretend outrage or awaken for the first time when we discover how politics is played (right now, it's just taking advantage of newer mediums (like facebook and twitter, that's all) and continue to hold no one accountable. It's up to us, it always has been.
Well, it's dirty. I suppose some would expect outrage. That would require taking this entirely out of context and ignoring the fact that "false flags" are so frequent from the conservative movement that it's become normalized for them ...as long as it comes from the right it's fine. What I see here is fighting fire with fire. It was inevitable but unlike within the trump movement, not at all accepted or funny.
2
I’m a registered Democrat who’s disgusted by this. The integrity of the process is paramount and I want my party and country to treat it as such.
34
@TJ
Here is the answer:
We must find a way to hold self-interested and self-enriching Elected Politicians, government officials, their staffers and operatives from both parties personally and financially liable, responsible and accountable for the lies and half-truths they have told US, their gross mismanagement of our county, our $22 T and growing national debt (106% of GDP), and our $80 T in future, unfunded liabilities they forced on US jeopardizing our economic and national security, while benefiting themselves, their staffers, their party and special interest donors.
1
Sadly, the rules of any game are actually set by the least ethical players. Hence, it was permissible to run the fake ads aimed at Moore. Until we can find a way to make this sort of chicanery illegal, with penalties for violators, we'll be stuck with this tactic. Let's get our legal system up to speed now!
And shame on the people who felt that they needed to stoop to this level. Two wrongs, after all, ...
8
These tactics are disturbing, not matter which side uses them.
2
What is the difference between this and partisan legislatures redistricting?
2
@Mac Lingo: If you don't understand the difference between government action to take away people's rights to elect the person of their choice, and in red states, the right to vote, and a fake campaign ad by a group of citizens, nothing anyone could say would help you understand.
Mac, modern partisan districting was invented by progressive California Democrat Phil Burton in 1981! It was the most potent gerrymander ever! Are you telling us you live in California and don't even know that? Don't drink your own koolaid (like the followers of progressive Bay Area preacher Jim Jones did)!
2
Let me add my voice to the chorus of progressives who condemn the use of such tactics without exception, and who would never vote for a candidate who was found to have used or supported such methods.
I know that the election of Trump, who is temperamentally unfit to lead our country, who thrives on division and antagonism, and whose own election was rife with deceptive messaging and tactics, has disheartened many. Those who would advocate for fighting fire with fire cast the use of such methods as necessary, and sarcastically or bitterly cite "when they go low, we go high" as the hallmark of a losing political strategy. I believe this is a serious error of judgment and perspective on their part. Naming lies as lies, calling out deceptive tactics and exposing their use, holding politicians and social platforms accountable for the spread of lies, and refusing to allow decorum and respect for norms and decency to be used against us - that is what "going high" can and should mean.
Deceptive tactics like these false-flag operations are morally repugnant and I guarantee you they will work against the Democrats if they try to justify their use. That liberals tend to hold their party members accountable, and actually do more than pay lip service to morality and standards of conduct - see the expulsion of Franken, Wiener and others - is one of the most important distinctions between the parties to me. To give that up for temporary political power would be unforgivable.
28
@NS
Yeah it's working so well for Elizabeth Warren. When accused of lying about Native American ancestry she had DNA analysis done which proved her Native American ancestry. Has trump or the rightwing stopped using this against her? Of course not. The truth means nothing to these people. So yeah telling the truth and then PROVING the truth has worked out so well for Senator Warren. I don't hear a loud chorus of republicans coming to her defense. Instead I hear the continual spreading of the lie and not one single republican coward has the brass tacks to say enough. So enough with trying to play nice with this despicable party. They're only getting what they deserve. The bible says an "eye for an eye" so were just following the biblical teachings! I guess even those old scribes understood justice.
2
At least the Democrats are being open about this. If the Republicans were caught, they would lie about it, claim the Democrats did it, use distraction techniques, and whatever else it took to shirk responsibility.
5
Disinformation campaigns are unethical. AND YET, how shall the right be motivated to begin thinking more critically?
People run disinformation campaigns because it works. They will continue to run them until they stop working.
Social media has created a new landscape in politics. We are all going to have to start thinking more critically if to adapt to this new landscape.
63
@Michael Collins:"Disinformation campaigns are unethical. AND YET, how shall the right be motivated to begin thinking more critically? "
That's a good one.
It has to be Putin, right? I mean who else knows so much about US politics.
5
What is the worst thing about the right?
Intolerance?
Bigotry?
Xenophobia?
Isolationism?
Union busting?
Voodoo economics?
etc.?
No.
It is the belief that the ends justify the means.
20
Let us hope that Democrats do not follow the same path! All false flag operations should be deemed illegal. All campaign adds, PACs, Dark Money etc., should be governed by sunshine laws. If you, or your organization, is concerned enough to say it, you should be individually be proud enough to own it.
4
Wasn’t this an article about Democrats following the end justifies the means logic to create a false advertising campaign to sink Roy Moore? Geez.
3
@Ben Miller
Did you read the article?
The fraudulent social media campaigns were perpetrated by progressive Democrats.
Their excuse: the ends justify the means.
2
I abhor the tactics, but does anyone really think that the presence of a conservative web page would influence an undecided voter. If you change your votes a reaction to someone else's opinion, then you really don't deserve democracy
6
Tactics and dirty tricks aside, I just can't get past the whole idea that in 2018, a purported effort to turn a whole state "dry" could actually be taken seriously in any public forum. Seriously?! That tells me all I need to know about culture-war conservatives.
6
This literally reminds me of every mailer and robocall you see from Republicans making insinuations and pretending to be from the other side. This is old news, just with new media.
15
I could have predicted the almost universal liberal response in these comments: that it’s just fine, and those evil Republicans are just getting what they deserve, and anything goes when the cause is “right.” Fraud is fraud, and voters were lied to. No matter who, these are crimes and should be treated as such. Without a rule of law, there is no “right” cause.
20
@Science Teacher: Unfortunately, there aren't laws on the books that prohibit this behavior, so if one side does it, the other feels compelled to follow suit. You're right; we need to outlaw these tactics and send a few of the perpetrators to jail, regardless of their political affinity.
3
@Science Teacher I am a liberal, and I agree that we are a country of laws. I do not approve of these tactics, however, I do not wish to be lectured about the ‘rule of law’ from people who so regularly disregard the blatant law breaking from their own, including the current President. Please spare us the sanctimony.
13
@Science Teacher If you're that concerned about it, go to the GOP and tell them not to steal court seats, not to suppress minority votes, etc. You had better tie your shoes up because it looks as if you have a lot of work to do.
10
If we recognize that one cannot lie to Congress, and one cannot lie to the FBI, why can one lie to the American public? That appears to be the root of all this evil.
20
@Jim Hutcherson
Given Trump's current 40 pct approval rating, I can only surmise that some people like being lied to.
2
@Jim Hutcherson, yes it would be great if it were illegal to lie to the American people. But who would be the fact checker to decide what is a lie and what isn't? Would that be a political position? Appointed by the president? Big Brother had his memory hole to drop anything the authority didn't want out in the world into a burning pit of fire.
1
@Kai
I agree, Kai, and I understand the difficulty of political bias needing to be overcome, which is why it’s good to once again recognize the difference between facts and opinions.
Give me a break, after Willie Horton, Obama is not a citizen, Cruz's father was in on the Kennedy assassination, Trump asking the Russians to interfere in 2016, Trump team meeting with Russians to get dirt on Hillary and lying about it not to mention the antics of Atwater, Rove and so on this is what I am supposed to care about? Surely the sanctimonious hand maidens for the wanna be dictator jest.
17
@greg Mulitple wrongs to NOT make a right. So tired the hypocrisy of Democrats hyperventilating about GOP dirty tricks and then engaging in the same behavior.
7
@Tim
Sadly it's where we are right now. Change the system. What are the republicans so afraid of? That they can't win unless they cheat? They already have voter suppression on their side and other nasty ways to manipulate a person's ability to actually vote. I don't recall any republicans coming to Obama's defense about the birther accusations started by trump. You all voted for him! Where was your outrage when a republican congressman ADMITTED that the only reason the were investigating Hillary Clinton on their trumped up charges was to influence the election so she'd lose? And THIS was done using taxpayer monies!!
Per WAPO-"So now we know: One of the principal reasons Republicans spent so much public money investigating the tragic Benghazi episode was to bring down Hillary Clinton’s poll numbers.
Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.), the likely successor to House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), told Fox News’s Sean Hannity explicitly on Tuesday night that the Clinton investigation was part of a “strategy to fight and win. He explained “Everybody thought Hillary Clinton was unbeatable, right? But we put together a Benghazi special committee, a select committee. What are her numbers today? Her numbers are dropping. ”
I don't recall hearing a single republican speaking out against that. And his punishment for these vicious lies? He's now house minority whip! So don't act all offended about the Democrats stooping to republican tactics. Your team is the master of sleaze!
2
Time for some legislation in the House.
3
Given the volume and scope of what Republicans and their Russian allies have done to steal elections, it's hard to get worked up about dirty tricks/"false flag" operations that may or may not have helped defeat a truly heinous candidate for the US Senate.I really believe McConnell and Co. breathed a sigh of relief when Doug Jones won, and they were spared the embarrassment of seating what was basically a 21st century Klansman.
My second point is, Knowing what we now know, why would anyone trust anything they read on Facebook, beyond birthday greetings from your Aunt.
15
Breaking news: Republicans sue Democrats for copyright infringement.
54
What a short-sighted worldview Mr Osbourne exhibits. This is how you win battles and lose wars, this is how you lead people to erroneously conclude that Dems and Republicans are all the same bag of crooks and dismiss them alike. He could not be more wrong to say "you can't unilaterally disarm" -- any successful company knows that winning a sale while sullying your brand is a sure-fire losing strategy over the long run.
10
I'm of the opinion that the truth about Republicans has become so toxic that one does not need to lie about them.
The truth is ugly enough.
Take trump's "Grab 'em -" comment.
That was so sleazy and yet, so well received by Republicans, such a hee-hee joke, nudge-nudge, that it exposed, forever, that trump supporters are simply sleazes.
Nothing will ever change that.
Osborne is as toxic as trump.
Let me repeat that: Osborne is as toxic as trump.
I haven't a clue why you call him a "progressive".
Progressives have no need to lie.
The truth is awful enough.
8
The Dry Alabama conservative bloc vs the Wet Alabama conservative bloc is a longstanding, complex and interesting socioeconomic aspect of Alabama.
According to the Alabama ABC Board, 'The State ranks among the nation's leaders in per capita revenue from the sale of alcohol, but does so while maintaining one of the nation's lowest levels of per capita consumption.'
http://alabcboard.gov/about-us
The division in Alabama between Wet and Dry conservatives would seem to present a perfect opportunity for a wedge tactic employed by those opposed to Alabama conservatives.
Such a wedge tactic is legal. It's a totally different kettle of fish, therefore, from the illegal US act of conspiring with the agents of the Russian Federation, a hostile foreign power, to enthrone as POTUS a Putin Puppet.
7
How can people who do this chicanery be called "progressive Democrats."
11
I prefer publicly exposing Republicans' sleazy tactics, not doing the same sleazy thing ourselves.
Please more more effort into bringing to light (and publicizing) all their wrong doings---and given our short attentions spans, it needs to be done repeatedly.
3
True Believers will always defend degradation of the battlefield in their cause. They leave wastelands behind them.
5
A free society cannot be based on lies...
In June 2012 SCOTUS ruled that it is OK to lie about receiving medals in our armed forces because that is "protected speech". Combined with Citizens United our country basically allows unlimited financing of lies in our political elections...
Our POTUS is the poster child for lying; a toxic brew of the worst impulses of our country. THE GOP has entirely lost its moral compass by supporting him, through their own bald-faced lies, and through underhanded campaign tactics such as Swift Boats, gerrymandering, and voter suppression. Add to that our Rasputin-like "news" agencies...
Winning at any cost destroys our country one misguided vote at a time, and I don't see how one resets the moral fiber of a nation.
3
“If you don’t do it, you’re fighting with one hand tied behind your back,”
And if you do do it, what in the world are you fighting for?
28
@M. Casey
"What in the world are you fighting for?" Just off the top of my head, possibly--access to healthcare, decreased income inequality, civil rights, women's rights, education, and the environment? Maybe that's what some progressives are fighting for.
A lot of people here appear confused. What makes the Republican party unpalatable to many voters like myself (blue dot in deep red state) isn't their means, it's the ends that they are trying to achieve through those means. (I know, I know--a lot of people ARE put off by the Republicans' means. I'm just saying that's not the case for all of us.)
Adopting Republican tactics plays right into Republican hands. Brace yourself for a load of indignant Republicans complaining about Democrats' lack of integrity. They complacently turn a blind eye to the misdeeds of their own party members, but will eagerly attack any shadow of Democratic misbehavior. One of the reasons we are not Republicans is because we don't practice chicanery to win - we win because we are right on the issues. Not because we expect our politicians to be poor imitations of skilled Republican liars and cheaters.
3
These folks being democrats does not make this effort a democratic one.
“If you don’t do it, you’re fighting with one hand tied behind your back,” said Mr. Osborne, a writer and consultant who lives outside Florence, Ala. “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
This is the same depraved indifference for decency that led the GOP into being the pawns of Satan that they are. Two wrongs do not a right make.
The people who did this in Alabama should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for any crimes they can be done for. Hopefully something in this mess was illegal and they can be had for that too.
If the truth is not enough for you there is something wrong with you and you obviously do not get the point of our founding documents.
We fought the entire cold war on the principle that propaganda and manipulation of ignorance was so morally wrong we (the entire nation) were willing to go down and die fighting against it.
4
Really, NYT? There are thousands of instances of the GOP using these tactics. It’s awful but it’s the system right now: you can’t bring a knife to a gun fight.
2
Too right, "the law has clearly not caught up with social media." There is a good chance it never will. Social media's pernicious influence on credulous minds makes money, sways opinions. It is a rare person who escapes this poisonous communication element so friendly to agitprop tripe.
2
When winning becomes more important than ensuring a fair and just political process, we all lose, regardless of party or political affiliation. Mr. Osborne is being stupidly short sighted. It will only be used by others to justify even further destruction of ethical political norms. It will also further increase political cynicism and disengagement (“why bother voting when they’re all corrupt anyway?”), defeating the very political outcomes he supposedly is fighting for.
4
@Paul Canaday-Elliott Ratf---ing has been part of American politics since Jefferson ran against Adams.
One side can't unilaterally disarm.
3
Perhaps Timothy Leary was on to something when he declared "Turn on, tune in, drop out". It is difficult to know how many people are influenced by FaceBook, but I would encourage everyone to stop using it and, instead, interact with those around them. To the extent that national media MIGHT have a hidden bias, it is clear that FaceBook posts ABSOLUTELY have a bias.
2
The article is disheartening, the comments are beyond disheartening. Just say no to lying. How do we ever possibly bridge divides by saying I will lie only some of the time and not all the time and I will decide when and if I tell you I have lied. The end does not justify the means. It is progressively destructive to go this route. Destructive of the social fabric, the norms and institutions we choose to believe in and agree to follow. It takes so very much longer to build trusting relationships than it does to destroy them.
22
Sorry, all, but by my lights I cannot excuse any progressive group of such behavior because it’s business as usual, or “the Republicans do it too.”
The end doesn’t justify the means. This is sinking way too low. I agree that it shows contempt for the electorate. Dems need to police their folks thoroughly if they wish to stop eroding my motivation to support them.
28
@Michael McGinley When they go low, we go lower.
2
“…..underscores how dirty tricks on social media are creeping into American politics.”
Really? Where have you been?
We must find a way to hold self-interested and self-enriching Elected Politicians, government officials, their staffers and operatives from both parties personally and financially liable, responsible and accountable for the lies and half-truths they have told US, their gross mismanagement of our county, our $22 T and growing national debt (106% of GDP), and our $80 T in future, unfunded liabilities they forced on US jeopardizing our economic and national security, while benefiting themselves, their staffers, their party and special interest donors.
2
It's pathetic, and predictable, that there are people commenting what amounts to, "this is nothing compared to...."
It is wrong and should not have been done. Everyone in any way involved should be fired and be unemployable in politics (at least on the left).
According to Gallup, about 6 months ago, 39% of voting-registered Americans are Independent, followed by 32% Dem, 26% Rep. You must realize your message and methodology needs to appeal to the broad, reasonable, middle.
These tactics (and Bernie Sanders, and the DSA) are not the way to victory.
Thanks for your efforts in 2016 (not). The left continues to do all it can to ensure a Trump victory in 2020.
6
This is disappointing, but still pales in comparison to the voter fraud in North Carolina revealed late last year. The Democrats have to be better, but we can't discard the fact that the GOP is still much worse.
6
Dirty politics in Alabama? Color me shocked and fetch me my smelling salts.
Back in 1999, "conservative Christian" groups in Alabama lobbied against a lottery and a gambling initiative, both of which were defeated. But really, the effort was pushed behind the scenes by Choctaws in Mississippi to protect their gaming interests and were assisted by Jack Abramoff and leading "Christian" and conservative, Ralph Reed Jr.
Financial transparency and informed voters would be a big help to prevent these types of shenanigans.
8
Dirty tricks in politics have been going on since the days of the Roman Republic. What’s changed is the vast amount of money and technology thrown at smearing the other side and the ability of political operatives to distance themselves from the nefarious actions of their allies both foreign and domestic.
It’s up to the citizens of this country to put our partisan emotions aside and weed out the false from the true.
This is not exactly easy.
6
I hope this story gets the media coverage it deserves. It dovetails in with the Democratic effort to create the fake Russian dossier on Trump in the 2016 campaign.
I am not holding my breath.
The Democratic excuse for this outrage? "The Republicans do it too."
To quote the Tweeter-in-Chief: "Sad!"
5
@steve It's hilarious to see all you people just clutching your pearls as if watching the Democrats use your own tactics against you is the most horrifying thing you've ever seen.
If you don't like this kind of activity in our political races, you shouldn't have set the precedent for it.
2
@steve
You seem to be suffering from a stronger than usual case of confirmation bias.
Keep looking; the fake truth is out there.
Wow! So the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans are alleged to have been when it comes to using social media, and the press, to influence elections. Who would have thought??
Let’s remember how consequential this election was. It nearly turned control of the Senate from the Republicans to the Democrats. It nearly cost Brett Kavanaugh his seat on SCOTUS.
The Senate election in question was, of course, won by the Democrat, but only by a hair. If not for the abuse of social media described by this article, it could easily have gone the other way. It’s also true there were serious allegations of sexual impropriety levied against the Republican candidate; but we should also remember these were credible, but not proven. (These included several allegations of coming on to minor girls. Such behavior, if true, is highly inappropriate, and I personally would not have voted for Roy Moore).
The tactics of which the Democrats are now accused are as bad as those allegedly committed by Republicans. They involve knowing publication of false information. I would like to see them banned, but I’m not sure this is possible; the cure may be worse than the disease. Here’s where I differ from many in the liberal press.. I believe maintaining a free press is far more important than eliminating all that is, or may be, false. The solution to false speech is not to restrict free speech. It is more, and truthful, speech.
4
Expunging this type of dirty trick from political campaigns will not be easy - but we must figure out how to - and do it.
We cannot expect democracy and rule of law and equality and free speech - all that we hold dear - to survive if lies and disinformation continue to emanate from those that are or would be our leaders.
This is serious.
3
"Do as we say, not as we do!" isn't really an acceptable response, and neither is "they did it first, so now we're doing it too!" See how well that excuse works in the school yard. The only "moral imperative" that anyone has is to be truthful. This isn't truthful, it's shameful.
1
I don’t know what is more depressing, politics stooping this low or the fact that Jones only very narrowly beat that low-life.
6
This is a very one-sided article, perhaps buying into Republican "tips?" It would be more helpful if the authors also reported in the same article on the Republican media spin about Roy Moore's "adventures" with young girls, the Republican embrace of Moore despite these issues, after first refusing to support him, and, I suspect, much more "disinformation" from the Republicans. I cannot help but believe that this Republican party embrace of disgusting behavior played a greater part in Moore's defeat than any "dry" or other campaign by individuals who may or may not have been acting with the knowledge, much less approval, of the Democratic party.
2
No, no, no. I've come to expect this from the Republicans, but while I'm far from naive about Democratic dirty tricks, this is beyond the pale. Just tell the truth and take the high ground. Otherwise, you feed into one of the most destructive impacts of the Trump Administration-- nobody knows what to believe anymore, and I can't think of anything more dangerous to our democracy.
3
the usa is in a league of its own compared to other western democracies when it comes to political sleaze.
too much money, too many clueless 'folks' and a pretty low ethical bar.
3
Dry Alabama? Seriously? The Federal Government has no say in whether Alabama is dry or not. That aside, the issue is not the dirty trick itself, but rather who perpetrated it, the motivation behind it, and the questions that arise from that. The obvious question that arises from the Russian propaganda is why the Russians want Donald Trump to be president so badly? No such question arises why Democrats, or anyone with any sense, would be opposed to Roy Moore.
3
"Fight fire with fire" seems to be a common rationale for moral equivalency. If you can use another's behavior to justify your own, then there is no morality. It's an internal compass, and our shared morals and values is often how we organize ourselves, through religion, charities and political parties. Mr. Osborne sadly seems not to understand this. Claiming a moral imperative only makes his fundamental error more glaring. I hope he reads this and learns from his mistake. I also hope our elected officials and aspirants reject this tactic.
3
Where are the columns telling us what a bad job the media does? Last night Anderson Cooper repeated the Trump false claim, to Ocasio-Cortez, that we have record unemployment. The lowest unemployment rates were less than 2%; much less than we have now.
2
When such means are said to justify the ends, and that people start believing in "a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes," it means that, on some level, the only thing that matters to them is attaining power.
Credibility and trust of the people are not qualities that apply only selectively after a particular party wins an election; you destroy them irrevocably in choosing to willfully deceive and mislead voters. Further, you are in some sense making the claim that they are not smart enough to elect the "right" candidate and that the deception is therefore necessary for 'their own good.' And of course, once elected, there is no reason to believe that these - or worse - tactics will not also be considered 'moral imperatives.'
2
Only Republicans will be surprised by this. This is what conservatives are up against. And these are the forces that worked in the shadows, relentlessly and tirelessly, during and after Obama’s tenure.
1
Give me a break; how many times have we heard of well organized GOP efforts to, oh, advertise an incorrect voting day (“D’s vote on Wednesday!”), or to post billboards in minority areas threatening prosecution for voter fraud, to (currently in N.C.) fraudulently collect absentee ballots, or to otherwise misinform or suppress voters?
Not only do both sides do it, the GOP has a much longer and more intensive history of this sort of disgusting behavior. To suggest otherwise, or to suggest that Mr Obama won (twice!) fraudulently, is nothing more than GOP revisionist history.
Both sides are wrong to behave this way, but the Dems are tyros learning at the knee of true masters of the dark electoral arts - the Republican Party.
3
I don’t suggest Republicans don’t do it. I am saying false flag operations were the modus of the Obama administration in its efforts to promote or address resistance to its efforts. And, further, to destroy its opponents after it left power. The Obama Administration and it’s cheerleading minions tried to bring its opponents to a halt, extra-judicially.
1
@Hoobert Herver
I mean this in the most helpful light possible: you are under the influence of completely false conspiracy theories. No such conspiracy against "conservatives" existed or exists. The people convincing you of this are deceiving you and manipulating you. Don't let them succeed. Resist.
Conservatives are failing now because of their policies and leadership. Are tariffs conservative? It's calling for Russia (Russia!!) to hack your opponent's email conservative? I (and you) could go on and on. Continuing to blame your very real problems on a very fake conspiracy won't help y'all get your house in order. It just makes you sound crazy.
1) This is one more reason why Facebook accounts should be verified. People and organizations behave differently when using their own name.
2) If we want to build a wall... There needs to be a wall in Facebook, and posts/campaigns by accounts outside of the US need to be noted as such.
There is clear difference between being deceptive about the source of posted content, and content that is false and/or deceptive. In this case, it does not appear that any of the content posted was false but merely highlighted potential conflicts between the political position of a candidate and potential voters. I would call this smart, and would feel the same way if the source of content had been a conservative group.
2
I deleted my longtime Facebook account over the weekend. I told them it was for privacy concerns but in my heart I fear it was because I was being forced every day to learn things about friends I didn't want to know in the age of trump, including how easily they could be fooled.
Facebook needs to solve the problem they have on their hands with these fake groups. I'd suggest lobbying congress to require all political groups to register with the FEC before a page can go up. And paying attention to who owns pages versus content after they are up. Surely facebook makes enough money to spend some on monitoring political pages and publicly flagging those who post content in opposition to their FEC filing stated aims.
We're not going to take our democracy back from social media's greedy clutches unless we use the law to do so. Oversight is badly needed. Congress needs to act. Greed is not good.
1
This is a serious issue that should concern all of us, no matter our political affiliation. In the 2016 election, Russia targeted both conservative and liberal voters. The goal was twofold: create general strife and discord within the American electorate, but also promote Trump, and turn away potential voters from Clinton. Subsequent data showed the strategy worked.
It's little wonder that political operatives in this country are paying attention. Such campaigns from Russia are a form of asymmetrical disinformation warfare. But an even better strategy is to have us do it to ourselves - destroy confidence in information and democracy from within.
The only thing stopping this from happening to a greater degree in 2020 is Congress. We certainly can't expect Facebook or Twitter to do the right thing.
Get rid of campaign governance, make the FEC toothless, enable people with money to buy what they will in election campaigns - and this is what you get. Why would anyone be surprised?
5
Now that it's clear that Trump isn't the exclusive beneficiary of social media hucksterism, perhaps there can finally be a bipartisan solution in sight.
These had their origin in the United States and were perpetuated by American citizens. These are no different than the whisper campaigns and other dirty political tricks used in campaigns since the beginning of campaigning for votes. Sure, they’re underhanded, but had the Republicans not nominated a deeply flawed candidate, they may have won.
I see no problem with dirty political tricks and disinformation online as long as it has a US source. It is incumbent on the electorate to educate themselves to know what the tricks are and who the tricksters are.
1
"Democrats" didn't post these pages anymore than "republicans" posted others. A few people decided to "go low".
It is WAY past time for media to stop putting everything into neat little red/blue, democrat/republican, christian/muslim and other packages to make it sound like wide-spread tactics.
These few outliers do not represent anyone but themselves. It all must stop.
That said, please go see the movie "Vice" if you haven't already. It is a fact-based account of the evil takeover of OUR U.S. government by Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld. They supposedly represented the republican party but actually were the main operatives of their Robber Baron brethren who have gotten control of OUR U.S. Senate and Supreme Court and want to destroy OUR United States of America. Christian Bale is fabulous as Dick Cheney and won the Golden Globe for best actor/comedy last night.
46
@njglea
The republican machine has been all in on this sort of decentralized yet fully integrated organized manipulation of the electorate since before reagan won in 1980. Read Richard Daley's book.there is no separation between the republican party and the robber barons you speak of.
If you want to find those separated it is the republican electorate who vote against themselves when they elect these folks because they believe the propaganda.
4
Politics is and always has been full of dirty tricks.
I'm not surprised when Republicans do it. Or Democrats.
I find it loathsome and cynical. It undermines our political process and makes a mockery of fair elections.
It treats voters with contempt, as if they are ignorant sheep to be herded and fooled behind a goat with a bell.
The fact that the newest iteration involves using the Russian mischief as a model of effectiveness simply confirms my already low opinion of political strategists.
21
Almost every time Trump or his press secretary open their mouths it's to lie and mislead. And entire industry of fact checking is overworked by them. Americans, in general, seem to like being lied to and the 63 million who voted for Trump and support him seem actually to prefer it and ignore the fact checking section of the New York Times, which they can't ready anyhow. Anyone who has been fooled twice on Facebook should be ashamed of themselves, as my grandmother would have said. American have the freedom to believe what they want to believe, and it has nothing to do with facts or fancy. What's lost is the art of doubt and weighing of evidence. In French, the words peser and penser are etymologically connected. To think is to weigh. If Americans believe everything their candidates and politicians tell them, well then they're very stupid.
43
@Max & Max
You're absolutely right, but your timing is all wrong.
The time to have made this point was back when the ridiculous story first surfaced of how a handful of Russian trolls and a budget of $100,000 "tricked" Americans into electing Trump.
Talk about fake news!
4
No doubt they collaborated with the Russians on this. Wait, maybe it was ISIS. Nah. Got to be Moldova.
5
Excuse me. We have a government, with the exception of the recently sworn-in mostly democratic house, under the sway of Russian mafia money. We have an extremely dangerous and erratic man in the office of the president causing harm every. single. day. Harm that will continue for generations, long after he has left this earth. Liberals need to get real. If this is what it takes now to prevent a racist, pedophilic madman from being senator and having the more reasonable alternative put there instead then I'm willing to accept that's where we are in 2019. Clearly the other side has accepted that they are now married to Russian mob money to back up their various white supremacists and gun nuts and sexual miscreants and what not. I will not cede my country to a hostile foreign power!
19
Spare me the hand wringing and fainting couches. Roger Stone and his cohorts have been pulling these kinds of stunts and winning elections for Republicans for fifty years. Do Democrats want to win elections and effectuate real policies for real people or do they want to sit at home doing Tequila shots and polishing their "ParticipationTrophy?" Stop fretting and move forward.
73
@Jason Shapiro, but if we become the republicans why do we need democrats?
10
Thank you, Jason!
1
@Jason Shapiro
You are wrong on both counts.
1. Morally you are wrong. "Real men" don't lie and pull this sort of stuff. Stop swaggering.
2. As a factual matter you are wrong. These sorts of stunts rarely swing an election. Stop exaggerating their importance.
7
Moore is a lowlife who deserved to be defeated. Anything that was used to keep him from gaining a Senate seat was acceptable. Seriously no one in their right mind can get upset about a sexual predator losing an election by whatever means possible.
Many decent people seeking office have had things done to them and said about them by the other party in order to smear them and keep them from winning. I have sympathy for those people. I have zero sympathy for a pig like Moore.
21
It’s still underhanded and wrong. You’re part of the problem as well.
6
I have great admiration for Michelle Obama but, in today’s political climate, there’s one tenet she espouses with which I vehemently disagree.
When they go low, we damned well better be prepared to meet them head on for a fight to the finish. The right will stoop to any level attainable in order to secure victory. To look at that fact through rose-colored glasses is nothing short of dangerous and extremely naive.
37
@Miguel Miguel
All this macho posturing and breast thumping is breaking me up!
To think I once believed that all Democrats were all 98 pound weaklings!
So now the measure of one's manhood is that one is prepared to do what it takes, even if what it takes stinks.
5
This is actually the first time I have come across the Democrats actually doing what the Republicans are best known for dirty tricks, think tanks dedicated to underhanded ways to gain advantages....Although this was an agency taking a page from the Right's Playbook. I think I like it.
37
@mike JFK's election? Carville saying Paula Jones is what you get if you drag a $100 bill through a trailer park? This isn't new.
9
This needs to be a bigger story than Alabama where a bad man was exposed for what he is and partly via chicanery.
For every bad-apple Democrat or progressive hacker, there are 1,000 Republican or fellow traveler trolls, not counting foreign actors. Same is true for partisan gerrymandered voting districts, outright vote thievery, and voter registration scams. Democrats and progressives are certainly not candidates for sainthood but appear to weigh in a little heavier on the side of operating within the law.
52
@Patricia
So many words!
Just say it's sleazy.
3
@Patricia: a thousand to one, huh?
And you base this on…..what? opinion? "feelings'?
1
There are counties where you can get arrested for drinking a beer? Amazing that this is legally possible in America. And here I thought this craziness ended about 90 years ago.
7
And cue Republican outrage, that liberals actually learned from 2016 and started using their own tactics against them.
76
@sam If that's the takeaway from 2016 for any political activist group, that's pathetic. It's practically an indictment of their own integrity.
3
You have a moral imperative to do what you think is immoral? So much for integrity!
78
@Christopher
Actually this is exactly the argument that the evangelicals put forth to support Trump. It is draining their congregations.
2
As for the internet, these old quotes.
Believe nothing that you hear.
Half what you see,
And a wise person believes only in lies.
Change the St. Ronnie saying to
Don't trust, verify.
8
Democrats, progressives and liberals will go to any lengths necessary in order to win, including inventing false right wing groups and posting their agenda to social media. You can blame still unproven Russian interference in our national elections, but the facts of this case show demonstrably that Democrat activists are proven cheaters.
5
@paul This case ranks as an outlier as far as Democrats are concerned and is opposed by the candidate Doug Jones, who has taken action against it. It sounds like you are asserting that all liberals subscribe to these tactics.
3
@paul
No paul, all our intelligence agencies agree Russia did indeed interfere... your inability to accept this fact does not make it false.
3
No Mr. Osborne, there is no “moral imperative” forcing you to lie in a campaign. These tactics should be a bailable offense. They decimate the legal authority of democracy, as well as the legitimacy of the winning candidate. This is a type of election fraud, and perpetrators should be convicted and imprisoned.
95
As ruthless and corrupt as the Republican Party can be, as a Democrat this just doesn’t sit well with me. How are these underhanded, shady schemes going to further our cause? Haven’t we learned anything yet?
200
Interesting. As usual, Democrats engage in projection: accusing the other side of the tactics they use with such relish. The first "Russian-style manipulation campaign" in Alabama might have been a coincidence. The second certainly forms a pattern. The party that will cheat, lie, and steal their way to victory (when they're not busy snatching defeat from victory's jaws): the Democrat Party.
9
The 21st Amendment to the Constitution, which repealed Prohibition, went into effect in December 1933. I believe that it was the most quickly enacted Constitutional amendment ever (aside from the original Bill of Rights), which is a testament to how unpopular Prohibition had become nation-wide. It is unbelievable to me that more than 85 years later, this would still be an issue of any political import in any part of this country.
But to address the bigger point in this article: Mr. Osborne is absolutely, positively 100% correct in arguing that Democrats need to fight fire with fire. In politics, there is no honor in defeat. The importance of advancing beneficial policies, or at least of fighting harmful ones, demands that Democrats not shy away from any political tactic unless it is flat-out illegal.
7
@Rick
Would it be more effective and ethical to show the voters that your opponent and/or opponent's supporters is dishonest?
1
@tried
It would be more ethical, but IF it would not be more effective, in terms of persuading more voters to vote for your side instead of your opponent, then there's no point. Winning elections justifies ANYTHING that does not involve actually breaking the law - and the activity described in this article is NOT illegal.
2
Doing a thing, because others are doing it, does not make it right-or ethical.
257
What happened to going high when they go low? “They did it first” is not justification for lying.
123
@Kelley
This is politics. Despite what Michelle Obama said, NOBODY goes 'high'.
2
“If you don’t do it, you’re fighting with one hand tied behind your back,” said Mr. Osborne, a writer and consultant who lives outside Florence, Ala. “You have a moral imperative to do this — to do whatever it takes.”
Until there are repercussions for Russia's meddling, GOP complacency about it, and rampant gerrymandering and voter suppression, Democrats probably should fight fire with fire. I know we should have a higher standard for the party that supports the poor and middle classes, but there's too much at stake to just let the GOP steal every election.
Climate change is still happening, the middle class is disappearing, people are dying from lack of health care or going bankrupt and then dying from being homeless. The stakes are too high to hold one party to the standard we used to have while the other robs the country blind and destroys the earth.
63
@Michael Lying and crass manipulation only helps those who would cheat, rob, and evade responsibility. But no real solutions can be developed for, say global climate change or middle-class economic woes, if lies are woven into the proposed solutions. Defeat the liars with more lies, and then start telling the truth? Not likely to work.
18
@Michael Thanks for highlighting that quote. A "moral imperative" to cheat, and you seem to agree! The madness of consequentialist ethics, distilled nicely in a single sentence. I'd call it a race to the bottom, but your tolerance for corruption seems bottomless.
14
@Boris Job
You're not wrong Boris. But personally I view climate change as effectively a gun against the heads of our grandchildren, I think we've been pushed into a corner and playing nice will only lead to more misery further on. When fighting greed at this scale, with no sign of the GOP having an ounce of morality or social conscience, what are we supposed to do?
7
Isn’t this what Citizens United allows? Or because it’s Democrats doing this that we have incredulous Republicans finding some moral back bone suddenly?
32