Donald Trump needs an enemy, he cannot function without someone to blame. By keeping both sides guessing as to what is a wall - something most four year olds' know - he continues to rule the airwaves with blame.
America was always the place where your efforts determined your status. Yet Donald Trump has encouraged those who feel entitled, nothing at all to do with their efforts but their birthright, that a desperate group of people is their enemy. It's the immigrants that want to pursue the American Dream and the Trump followers that want it eliminated.
Stopping illegal immigration doesn't need a wall, it needs better processing and employers held accountable. How many Trump supporters have hired undocumented workers because they work cheap and don't complain?
5
I am distressed that the Democratic leadership is calling the Wall "immoral." It is equivalent to HR Clinton calling the residents of Middle America "Deplorables." It gives the republican right-wingers a clarion call. They will say Democrats only care about immigrants, that the Democrats don't care about border security.
Democrats: Want to win the next presidential election? Please stop with calling the wall "immoral!" The wall is too expensive. The wall is in effective. Say: We want effective border security!!
9
The definition of a wall has changed.....it now is a physical object to block not only immigrants, but also every other function of a government. It is an object that has the power to demonstrate the intransigence, and posturing required by two sides above all reason and logic. It is not a real functional structure repesenting stabilization of our borders. It now represents a demonstration of instability of our political system and specifically its leadership. There are real problems I country and world today. A small area of our country ...that happens to be some specific occupant of a city named after a thoughtful President......is now being embarrassed by its current resident, and other political figures on both sides.
1
Federal expenditures in the billions of dollars legitimately have research and analysis that underpins the decision for those expenditures, that the billions will be well spent. There was one GAO analysis that showed a Wall would be ineffectual and a waste of money. Is that not enough to deny the President his demand? If not, let’s have another study done: if it demonstrates that a Wall will significantly improve border security, and that the improvement offsets the costs- in money, environmental impact, private property appropriation, etc. I would be willing to consider it.
1
Now that almost all of Trump's other promises have blown up on him (North Korea has of course not abandoned its nuclear program, Mexico isn't going to pay for any type of wall, his trade wars have hurt a host of U.S. businesses and not deterred the Chinese, the $1.5 trillion tax cut for rich corporations and rich people has put the U.S. further in debt without putting real money in average people's pockets, the ACA is still in effect, etc., etc.) and now that the stock market has cratered for the year, Trump is desperate for a "win." Notwithstanding the fact Democrats obviously cannot comply with Trump's whims every time he decides to take the federal government hostage (or there would be no limit to such hostage-taking), and notwithstanding the fact that on January 3 the House, under Democratic control, will pass a bill to reopen the parts of the federal government that have been shut down (thereby making it plain to anyone with the slightest common sense that Trump and Republicans are to blame for the shutdown), Donald "Custer" Trump will veto any legislation to end the shutdown because he's petrified Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter will swipe his manhood. It will then be up to both houses of Congress to override his veto, or risk facing the biggest self-created crisis our government has seen in 100 years.
2
Trump demonstrates on a hourly basis the adage, "Just because you have one doesn't mean you have to act like one".
Actually, it could easily be applied to any of his cabinet, his appointees or his fans.
It is gender neutral, if you think about it.
It works equally as well for Kirstjen as for Chris.
1
Trump demonstrates on a hourly basis the adage, "Just because you have one doesn't mean you have to act like one".
Actually, it could easily be applied to any of his cabinet, his appointees or his fans.
It is gender neutral, if you think about it.
It works equally as well for Kirstjen as for Chris.
1
My older daughter is 34 years old. She graduated from college about 13 years ago. She was a good student who won first price for best extemporaneous presentation from memory in Chinese. The judges were native Chinese speakers. After she graduated she applied to several schools to teach Chinese, but she had never applied for a degree in Chinese, so that door was closed. Instead, she took a year and a half course in nursing, which she finished and was quickly hired by a hospital in NYC. She also met a handsome Canadian whom she fell in love with. She married him and they moved into a nice apartment in Brooklyn. Little by little his halo disappeared.
He often failed to return home and didn't call her, but he didn't seem to care. The final straw was when she was having a mis-carriage and he took us to the hospital, but didn't come back for us. She divorced him.
I learned some things from him. He wasn't Canadian,but he was white. He knew dozens of ways to sneak out of or back into Canada. He never took a major highway from the US to Canada, or vice-versa unless he had legitimate papers. There are many small back roads that either have no guards, or only have them during the day. And never travel with someone who has a foreign accent or doesn't look like they come from a western country.
If you're white it's easy to get into the US. If not, you're in for trouble. We have a racist president. That's why he's only asking for a wall across Mexico, not Canada.
2
When I listen to C-SPAN radio callers talking about the importance of a wall to solve our immigration problem, it just boggles my mind. There is simply no factual justification for a wall -- and certainly not a wall of the type Trump and his base seem to be envisioning. Yes, we have immigration issues, but most people who are here illegally are those who overstayed their visas. We need sane immigration policies, not walls.
But if you want a "wall" that works, then you're looking at the North Korea model. I've been to the Joint Security Area inside the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) that separates North Korea and South Korea (and technically been on the North side of the Military Line of Demarcation (MLD)). Virtually no one gets across that border, even though it's not a "big, beautiful" concrete wall.
No one, of course, is trying to get IN to North Korea. They keep people from getting OUT by torturing and killing anyone who makes the slightest move to escape (as well as their family members), and shooting to kill when anyone gets close to the MLD.
So I guess if we want to keep people from countries in Central America from crossing our southern border we'll need to (1) somehow create a 30-mile buffer zone between the U.S. and Mexico; (2) get all the Central American governments to agree to torture and kill all of their citizens who try to leave; and (3) if anyone does manage to leave and get to the actual border, shoot them on sight.
Sounds like a great plan to me.
4
This is what happens when politicians publicly proclaim "Never!!". That is probably the worst possible negotiation stance. Both sides look like children arguing without an adult in the room saying " It's his fault. No it's his fault" In fact, in the case of two such children, the real adult says "I don't care whose fault it is - you both better figure it out". Anyone willing to step up? Arguing about whether a wall is a wall,a fence, a barrier, is whatever you want to call it reminds me of "it depends what the definition of 'is' is".
Trump swore he was going to have Mexico pay for it. When and if Mexico does, he can build it. There is NO WAY anyone in the government should vote for this purely vanity project. There is a lot that could be done with $5 billion but the wall isn't it one of them, especially after his ridiculous tax cuts which are causing stock buy backs which in turn are artificially inflating the prices of still public companies. We are in for a nose dive. Cadet bone spurs intransigence and lies only makes everything worse.
3
Trump wants a “wall.” Democrat’s say “no way, but a fence is ok” and have voted for it in the past. And people wonder why we have no confidence in our government? We have elected spoilt children and we are surprised at this? I want these folks to have as little control over my life as is humanly possible.
1
The solution to this is to build a wall as long as desired, with each panel approximately one interstate lane wide, as high as possible.
Then when we get rid of Trump, dismantle the whole thing and use it to fix up all our roads.
Kind of a sneaky infrastructure project...
4
“It’s $8 billion.… And of the 2,000 [miles], we don’t need 2,000, we need 1,000 because we have natural barriers, .. it’s a very simple calculation. I’m talking about precasts going up probably 35 to 40 feet up in the air. That’s high; that’s a real wall. It will actually look good. It’ll look, you know, as good as a wall is going to look.” — Donald Trump, interview with MSNBC, Feb. 9, 2016
According to this article, 81-percent of the 2018 allocation of $1.6 billion is buying 84 miles of various types of fence (instead of 96 miles due to cost increases). That's 20.2 million dollars PER MILE - for fence.
A TOTAL of 8 billion dollars would buy A TOTAL of 395 miles - of fence - in 2018. Candidate Trump was nowhere near reality. And, even after GM announced its plant closing (in the aftermath of NAFTA 2.0 and Tax Cut's depreciation schedule), President Trump insists that Americans agree that Mexico is paying for the Wall.
One thing that we can count on: If the Flim Flam Man gets his whatever-you-want-to-call-it (FENCE!), he's going to replace it with A WALL! -- and he'll expect us to agree that Mexico is paying for that, too!
1
Heidegger: “a boundary is not that at which something stops but, as the Greeks recognized, the boundary is that from which something begins its presencing”
A “wall” should be the beginning of America, not the end of hope. This means a new border should be a wall that meets the needs of humanity, calls forth our greatness. This doesn’t mean lawlessness but better buildings and infrastructure (mini cities) which transitions people either to the US or back home if they are no able to assimilate. It invites people to them rather than around them. A physical barrier only invites lawlessness and more problems
2
The southern US border is not like the edge of a front yard in a suburban home.
The geography includes a complex watershed that runs from the US Southwest into northern Mexico. There are mountains, rivers, and desert along the border. There is privately owned land that abuts streams with seasonally shifting banks. There are stretches of sand dunes that are so tall they can "climb" a solid wall as they blow against it and go over.
The problem with the wall (from a purely practical point of view) is the incredible expense in dealing with the rugged geography and dealing with all the legal complications due to private property concerns. And the expense for maintenance in an environment where there are flash floods, dust storms, intense heat, and the like.
A wall like what Trump wants will not cost 5 billion. It will cost much much more and have continuous maintenance costs. If the wall creates new problems (flooding by channeling flood waters into people's homes), it will require costly legal defense.
The wall is simply a "feel good" vanity project that is a colossal waste of money. It is simply NOT the right technique for securing such a rugged border. Say No to Trump's Folly!
8
The southern US border is not like the edge of a front yard in a suburban home.
The geography includes a complex watershed that runs from the US Southwest into northern Mexico. There are mountains, rivers, and desert along the border. There is privately owned land that abuts streams with seasonally shifting banks. There are stretches of sand dunes that are so tall they can "climb" a solid wall as they blow against it and go over.
The problem with the wall (from a purely practical point of view) is the incredible expense in dealing with the rugged geography and dealing with all the legal complications due to private property concerns. And the expense for maintenance in an environment where there are flash floods, dust storms, intense heat, and the like.
A wall like what Trump wants will not cost 5 billion. It will cost much much more and have continuous maintenance costs. If the wall creates new problems (flooding by channeling flood waters into people's homes), it will require costly legal defense.
The wall is simply a "feel good" vanity project that is a collossol waste of money. It is simply NOT the right technique for securing such a rugged border. Say No to Trump's Folly!
4
@Heather If only the Democrats would use your language, your argument. Instead they're calling the wall immoral! Giving the republicans the chance to say that the dems only care about immigrants and that the dems do not care about border security.
The Democrats getting set up to lose the next presidential election!
Rather than fight with Trump about the notion of a "wall", Democrats should take this opportunity to flip the script and reframe this debate in their favor by presenting, each and every day, a sophisticated, innovative idea from a broad spectrum of experts about the meaning of tightening border security and creating new jobs via high-tech advancements at the border. There are so many ways we can unite with Mexico, and Canada for that matter, in improving legal access and curbing illegal border crossings through innovative methods through an array of new technologies that people want to learn about. There are a myriad of incredible ideas and strategies experts can share regarding improved and new communication networks to better organize security stations and the many agents and government offices at work on both sides of the borders to improve and support collaborative relationships that benefit everyone.
The solution is not made of bricks and mortar. Mexico will not pay for it. Rather, they will work with us if we present them with high-tech, innovative solutions that are based in long-term, sustainable strategies that create jobs and new ways of doing things. That's the future.
Trump's stubborn, simplistic views are short-sighted and rooted in the past. Democrats can seize this opportunity to pivot our conversations towards a future that sights an improved, lucrative future based in collaboration, innovation and forward thinking.
5
A wall is an antiquated barrier to protect a border. Nowadays, we have better tools to use in areas where walls would damage the ecosystem or interfere with a butterfly sanctuary. A fence that allows air and light through, drones, and other surveillance tools are all better uses of our money along the border.
4
@Barbara
Perhaps a more effective solutio to this problem would be to use a significant part of our defense spending, more than
$700,000,000,000 in 2018, and changing our laws concerning recreational drugs, to eliminate the corruption and drug cartels that control the countries our illegal immigrants are trying to escape.
If the problem of illegal immigration constitutes the terrible threat to our safety, which the president claims, perhaps we could do with a few less nuclear aircraft carrier, nuclear submarines, B1-bombers, etc.
2
We should have a tax increase tied to any funding for border security. We think we can operate without regard to deficient spending but one day it will catch up with us.
Looking for a tax increase with separate those that really want it for security as opposed to those that want it for a rallying cry.
3
The obsession with the border doesn’t really make any sense. If people are migrating to the US, it means there is a significant market demand for them to do so. When immigration dropped in 2008, it’s because the economy was in poor shape and immigrants couldn’t find jobs.
Just last week I read an article about how employers are constantly being “fooled” by fake id’s or circumventing labor laws by paying people in cash. Also, after reading about the plight of so many migrant farm workers, so much of illegal immigration seems to be a ploy by the wealthy to circumvent safety and OSHA regulations by using the threat of deportation to stifle complaints.
Why don’t we crack down on the employers? If they’re forced to pay minimum wages and use good safety practices, immigrants won’t be undermining the security of US workers, and, once it’s clear the demand for workers isn’t being met, big US businesses will be forced to lobby the parties to make some kind of reasonable deal to allow immigrants to come in and take jobs.
The heart of the problem with illegal immigration is simply that — the illegality of it, which is the objective of the Republicans. Once everything is aboveboard and nobody can be exploited, this crisis will dissipate overnight, but that would swiftly cut into the profits of their constituents who exploit these poor folks. Indeed, the best part of the wall is that its simultaneously ineffective while enforcing the notion of illegality.
8
As a taxpayer I'd say the outcome depends on the definition of 5.7 Billion dollars.
3
The impasse will not end until Trump stops lying and creating havoc in our government. Until then there will be an "impasse."
1
I am currently working for no pay in a Federal agency directly walled off from compensation because 45 thinks we're mostly Democrats. After this obstruction called the shutdown we may all be unanimously in the opposition party. Has anyone else wondered who the real beneficiaries of this absurd Humpty Dumpty construction would be? Are they contractors that 45 owes favors to?
10
Most Americans care about national security.
That is why most Americans are against wasting resources on Trump's Vanity Wall.
7
A "breakthrough possibly hinging on a semantic argument about - "what is a wall" would just be a bi-partisan cop-out to avoid addressing the real issue: what is the best use of 5 billion dollars of taxpayer money - education, veterans administration improvements, bridge , road and other infrastructure repairs, et .al. ? After January 3, 2019, the Democratic controlled House is gong to adopt the bi-partisan Senate border security bill just unanimously adopted by voice vote in the 2018 Senate and send it back to the Senate, which will unanimously re-adopt the bill. Trump will then veto ithe bill. The Senate will unanimously vote to override Republcan President Trump's veto. Every Democrat in the House will then vote to override Trump's veto leaving it to House Republicans to either join the override vote or let House Republicans and Republican President Trump take sole responsibility for a continuing government shutdown. The only real pressure on Republican President Trump to end the Republican government shutdown is that he will not be able to play golf until he ends the shutdown.
1
I don't need to redefine "wall". It's very clear, after months of campaigning and two years of maladministration, that when Trump says "wall" he means "wall".
Maybe we should work on redefining "humiliation" to make it easier for him to give up.
4
Why do Democrats continue to do nothing? Do they have any ability to compromise? We don't need some bizarre concrete wall that illegal immigrants will just climb over. We need to use technology and stop the false argument Dems give - stopping illegal immigrants is racist. We need to stop yelling about the rich and the poor as if illegal immigration has nothing to do with the US economy. Mexicans and others need to be able to get work visas if they want to temporarily live in the US, but I'm thinking there is no such thing as temporary these days. We can statistically say how many illegal immigrants are here, how many from all over that have over stayed their visas, but we cannot locate and expel those here illegally? I think we can, but the Dems don't want to protect the borders and expel illegal immigrants. That is the real problem, it's not about a wall, it's about open borders. That tact has given us Trump. Let that sink in Dems before you whine about Trump and 'resist' doing any part of your jobs.
3
An astute president knows when to reneg on a campaign promise because it is not good for America.
For example, “Read my lips. No new taxes.l
Ex CIA, Republican Congressman Will Hurd, who represents more of the U.S.-Mexico border than anyone else, maintains, “It is fallacy to think a border wall equates to border security. It is not how many miles of wall that is going to keep us safe. Are we keeping bad guys and are we keeping drugs out of our country? The best way to do that is with technology and manpower. Building a wall from sea to shining sea is the most expensive and least effective way to keep the border secure.”
Congressman Hurd rightly addresses the complexities. “What are the root causes of illegal immigration? Violence and lack of economic opportunities in places like the Northern Triangle - El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala. We should be talking about plussing up the State Department’s budget, USAID’s budget. We should be working with Mexico on this issue.”
3
Let's call it what it is, trump's Maginot Line. It will be just as expensive, outdated, and easily circumvented as the original one.
5
How much more secure can the US-Mexico border get? Every year we dedicate more funding to border security, every year we hear calls for more. Also, enhanced border security is ineffective against illegal immigration from Russia, Sweden, or any other country you can name where the preferred method of entry is not via the southern border.
Stop talking about the border as the problem, we could dedicate our entire GDP and a little more just for good measure and would still hear screams for “more security”. Our nation is as secure as it is ever going to be. We are going to have to live with the fact that as long as this country is not the most miserable in the world there will be at least one other country where people will have a motivation to move here, legally or otherwise.
How about we focus on making our citizens less miserable? Happy citizens can live with the existence of immigration, legal and illegal.
3
Years ago, I met a man (I’ll call him Ernesto) who kindly took the time to explain to me why he and his family had illegally entered our country.
Ernesto was an intelligent, well-spoken, well-mannered man. He did well in school in the Central American country where he was born. He graduated from college, joined the military and was quickly made an officer. Eventually Ernesto rose to the rank of colonel.
He was married and had two young children.
Then everything fell apart.
There was a successful coup. As punishment for their loyalty to the former government, men like Ernesto were thrown out of the service. The new government went to great lengths to see to it that no one would employ “loyalists” like Ernesto.
The next part of his story made such an impression on me, I think I can come close to quoting Ernesto:
“The truth was clear. If we stayed where we were, we were going to starve. Maybe I could feed my family by stealing for a time, but we were doomed.
“So the four of us went north. It was very hard, but we eventually crossed into Texas and kept moving north. A kind family of farmers gave us work and a place to live.
“Tom, you must understand. If we stayed where we were, we were going to die. If I’d been told, ‘If you make it to the U.S., there’s a 50% chance you’ll find work and a 50% chance you’ll be caught and executed.’
“WE STILL WOULD HAVE COME.”
I met Ernesto about 25 years ago. I think of him every time I read of Trump’s WALL. It would not have stopped Ernesto.
6
The "wall" for Trump represents a gigantic statue of himself erected at the border protecting the USA from the barbarian hordes wanting to overrun the country and destroy our way of life.
The pragmatic reality of this effort is unimportant. What is important is Trump's ability to brag about how he alone saved the country from certain ruin. This would be a potent campaign meme.
The beauty of this for Trump is that by convincing millions of voters that they are in imminent danger of annihilation without the magical "Wall" he will get credit when this does not happen. The fearTrump has managed to stoke has a huge delusional component and so the the solution can also be delusional.
This reminds me of man walking in Times Square snapping his fingers. When asked why he does this he says it "keeps the alligators away." When told that this is silly because there are no alligators around, he responds, "you see it works."
3
It is the nuts and bolts of this that bother me as much as anything.
"...has spent only 6 percent of the $1.7 billion allocated during the 2017 and 2018 fiscal years for physical barriers on the border, ... About $1.3 billion was designated in 2018 for different types of fencing in areas that would have covered about 96 miles, but rising costs have shaved off 12 miles."
In other words, the money is being misused and re-allocated or left unspent.
One estimate for the total wall is $28 billion. $5 billion is one fourth of the entire annual budget for infrastructure in the United States. The 2017 infrastructure report by professional engineers was D+. https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/infrastructure-super-map/
This is dangerous. There are roads and structurally deficient bridges that desperately need to be repaired, and all kinds of infrastructure that needs to be modernized. These impact tens of millions of Americans every day.
Let Mexico pay for the wall since that is what Trump promised. American taxpayer dollars should build and repair our own infrastructure.
6
$1.5 billion for 81 miles of wall. That’s a little over $18.5 million a mile. Somewhere there is a no-bid contract or some kind of sweetheart deal. $3500 a foot! Talk about the swamp!
5
If Trump is as rich as he claims, couldn't he just pony up the 5 Billion?
1
He isn’t as rich as he says . . . I think Putin is tightening the strings on his allowance.
. . . and It would be anathema to Trump to spend any of his money on national security. Remember—he thinks not paying taxes makes him smart! He only likes to make and keep money, while "stiffing" those dumb enough to work hard and pay taxes.
Democrats should offer Trump a big fire truck or 18 wheeler. He seems to want a big toy that he wasn't granted for Christmas some year; maybe this will do it.
1
A wall is a real estate developer’s idea of a solution and is fitting coming from this President. Bricks and mortar. Money. Developers work to get their way at any cost. The current situation is no surprise. The federal employees working without pay and those that are on furlough is a travesty. That they have been made the President’s pawns underscores again his egomaniacal self centeredness. Marginal might be in his vocabulary but compromise and negotiation are not in his pocket dictionary.
4
Don’t those wall prototypes standing like some future Stonehenge near the SW border fit the specs of the wall Mr. Trump longs for?
Part of that “Wall” should include “e-verify”
1
Trump created this issue about Trump's wall. If Mexico is not paying for it, the Americans who didn't vote for Trump are not going to pay for it either.
Border security is more inclusive than a static wall and the more Trump insists on a wall, the dumber he appears.
3
Is shutting out desperate people a painful necessity, or something to gloat over? Trump's wall would do the latter. Yes, sadly, we must turn some people away. But do we need a monument glorifying that, a physical finger-in-your-face? Is that who we are now? It's not about the definition of 'wall', it's about the definition of us.
1
To many, the only border that is seriously corroding America's well-being is Trump's apparent borderline personality.
2
Why a Wall?--Make a Moat--South is guaranteed to flood every year-- and since no belief in Global Warming--USE IT!
Steel slats.
No money for the wall; no matter what you call it. Trump lives and dies on his promise to his base. No wall; no base? Maybe. But; no money for the wall. Ray Sipe
1
No wall.
Ask Roman Emperor Hadrian how well a border wall works.
2
Trump needs to come back with DACA again and he can have his stupid wall. Like last year but this time he needs to keep his deal.
I think it's time for Congress to teach Mr. Trump a lesson in the Constitution.
(1) Both houses work together to draft and pass a clean, bipartisan bill to fund the government, with only the minimal agreed-upon Wall money.
(2) Trump vetoes this bill. Now HE owns the shutdown.
(3) Congress overrides his veto, funding the government.
In the last many years, Congress has been trying to work with the President to pass legislation that he will sign. I can't remember the last time Congress overrode a veto.
But as Trump has shown, the age of Business As Usual is over. It's time for Congress to reclaim its responsibilities.
17
Why not try a rational approach to the issue of border security? Let the House hold hearings in which experts offer their opinions on the most effective means of enhancing border security. If there are areas where fencing or a wall would reduce border crossings, fund it. But also provide funding for other measures that would be more effective elsewhere.
16
@Judith. What a great idea! Too bad no one in our government, republicans or democrats, thought of this.
Every president makes some cocky grand promise or another. The wall is one of the most useless. It is also one of the most harmless and inexpensive of any President in the last hundred years. Congress should vote the money and move one. They throw away more on things that do less good and more harm all the time.
4
Advocating that we throw Billions away just cuz? Rudimentary is the kindest word I can think of to describe such ridiculousness.
Please stay away from any elected office.
2
@KBronson. Baloney. $5 billion is only a drop in the bucket for construction. It would cost much more, and then you have to have security and maintenance. And it won't work anyway. Walls have never worked. Give Trump his wall and suddenly the price will go way up, and it won't help anything.
4
Harmless and inexpensive? I’m fairly sure that the VA or ACA recipients could likely find better ways to use $5bil.
4
So, what, now it's the Great Quibble?
5
“Wall” is a token, a symbol for who is in charge. It is not even part of a solution to border problems, and never is it even attempted to explain how it would help. “Wall” is a rallying cry, nothing else.
And if the $5 billion down payment is made, and then the $20 billion to follow, then what? Will border problems be fixed? Will the wall even be completed?
Immaterial. The increased debt will lead to abandoning Medicare and Social Security as unaffordable. Further dismaying the populace and disillusioning them with government. Another step toward a bonkers right wing “Christian” Oligarchy run by the Mercers, the Kochs, the Adelsons, the Uihleins etc etc. already in charge of the GOP and feeding 85% of Republicans with unending propaganda from Fix News, Rush Limbaugh, Twitter, etc etc.
14
The so called "wall", and border security issue is an obstruction. The money for it and the senselessness of it is an insult in the face of the homelessness, and the medical, and food needed for people who are citizens. This non-citizenship cloud is a cover up for the harm this administration has placed not only on trade, environment and social issues, but globally through fear and permeating a sense of dread through the world. This shark being used to maintain a polity status quo is backfiring, and while its difficult to imagine there is someone not negatively affected by this administration, I look forward to the day Mr. Mueller has his say.
9
We all want secure borders, Trump’s complaints notwithstanding. HOW to do it is the question Congress should be discussing. My guess is that there are far more effective and less costly solutions to this problem.
And let’s face it, we’ll never end illegal immigration. We can make it incredibly difficult for people to get in though.
7
Trump knows he is not going to get $5 billion for a wall. He was fine with negotiating until his conservative puppet masters at Fox News began to criticize him for being "weak." He's trying to keep what friends he can keep as the rest of us get increasingly sick of him. The shutdown will continue until the newly elected representatives are in office, then funding will continue without the wall, and Trump will get to keep his strong man image. Government employees are just pawns in his game.
9
In the midst of the country's infrastructure crumbling, our politicians arguing over the cost of healthcare, Social Security and Medicare and looking to cut those programs,
you mean to say that we'll spend billions on a 2000 mile long wall?
A wall, in geographical locations that no one has ever crossed, nor will they ever because it's in the middle of nowhere?
We know the border areas that require additional security, so why aren't we concentrating and improving security in those areas?
This has to be one of the most frustrating, proposed political boondoggles that I've ever seen. And that's saying quite a bit. $14000 toilet seats? Not even in the same league.
What is so difficult about coming up with a plan that doesn't throw our precious resources into a walled off money pit?
9
One more example of why the American people do not trust trump. He does not know what "Public Service" is nor does he care. He has shown he does not care about health care for the poor or the things that make people sick, i.e., his dangerous environmental policies. His wall is an absurd waste of money and will do little to relieve the fear he and his supporters feel for immigrants or other "strangers"...Does trump even know or care about the ideals of the US and what it was founded on? His motto: "In money & greed we trust".....
5
Trump vowed to fulfill his campaign promise to his base and fox (faux) viewers should ask and negotiate with Mexico. Throughout 2016, he repeated to his adoring crowd that Mexico not the US tax payers will pay his beautiful wall. Everyone except his base knew that what he uttered were nothing but one of Trump's many, many lies.
10
During the presidential campaign in 2016, Donald Trump chose the WALL to be his primary demagogical distractor.
“Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I am Oz!”
In Trump’s case, it was, “Pay no attention to my infidelities, to my bankruptcies. Pay no attention to my lack of military service, public service or the fact that I’ve never held elected office. Do not focus on my ignorance of American history, law, the constitution, governmental organization and operation.”
“Pay attention to none of that. Those things don’t matter.”
“What matters is the diseased, criminal, drug-trafficking rapists sneaking across our southern border. Stealing your jobs. Illegally voting. Collecting welfare. Most of them criminals...”
This WALL business was a distraction, a crude political trick. But Trump isn’t adept at politics. He’s now trapped by his own demagoguery.
And, to some degree, so are the rest of us.
9
Make it a "wall on wheels". That way it can be moved for Monarch butterfly migration and other animal migrations. In this reference, please check out Trump's tweet of a few days ago where he was promoting his wall (and his expertise in tech "I'm the best") along with the wonders of the wheel.
2
Trump doesn't care about a wall; he doesn't care about border security. All he cares about is winning--getting his way and the power he associates with that-- and money. There's no telling what he plans to actually do with the money he is insisting on, since even he has no idea what he's about, but he does want everyone to buckle under. That's winning.
10
“The fact remains that border enforcement — especially the construction of physical barriers — has never kept determined migrants out of the country…”
What would discourage migrants from illegally crossing our border is a national identity card with biometric information that all employers would have to enter into a government database to see if job applicant and current employees are entitled to work here.
Every American citizen and legal resident should be issued a free identification card with biometric data, including a photo that is updated every 2 years. People should not have to travel far to apply for their cards. Application centers should be located throughout metro areas, and traveling vans could go through rural areas, taking applications and updating cards on a regular basis.
Since birth certificates can be forged, the card should be issued only to those with birth certificates that have been crossed checked against the birth registries of each state, and all other available information. Naturalization papers would also need to be cross-checked as would papers awarding legal residency.
Employers should be required to enter each employee’s card into a government data base to be able to quickly and easily determine if he or she is permitted to work in the U.S. If migrants could not find work here, most would self-deport and others would not come.
5
@ ann Republicans will never do it. If all citizens have an identity card then nothing would block them from voting. How would the GOP win elections then?
1
The only lesson trump learned is that of the Emperor's New Clothes and has perpetrated it on his base of fools as the Trump's New Wall - a Nigerian 419 advance fee scam demanding billions as an advance from his subjects while claiming Mexico will pay for the wall. As the imaginary wall goes up, trump will reap billions in kickbacks from the advanced fee for nothing. This would not work without the collusion and conspiracy of the Republicans in Congress.
4
The Trumpinot Line. And just as effective.
6
Just give him a $160,000 hush money payment already. Tired of listening to the “smartest man in the world”
5
As I recall, every terrorist attack has either been perpetrated by white, native born men or by people that arrived via the airlines. How does a wall address those facts?
11
'What's in a name? A wall by any other would smell as foul.' (Apologies to Da Bard)
3
There is no confusion about the definition of the wall. Let Trump define his own wall with his limited vocabulary and declare himself he has won and open the government.
1
Actually, all it depends upon is finding a way to make Donald look good. He doesn't care about the details and his supporters prefer to ignore the truth.
So learn from Kim, Xi & Putin who played Donald like a banjo. Make Donald look good and he'll dance like a puppet.
7
So, little Donald is having a temper tantrum because he is not getting his "Beautiful Wall". BOO HOO! Well hopefully Nancy Pelosi knows better how to deal with childish temper tantrums than Fred Trump did.
6
Here's my definition of "wall":
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
There. Done.
End the shutdown.
3
Beaded curtain? Steel slats?
What if Chuck and Nancy promise Trump a lovely hedge and tell him that the "hedge funds" will pay for it? Trump would probably fall for it. The easiest person to con is usually another con artist.
9
Why the constant preoccupation with people crossing our southern border? Why can't they come here?
2
How about the definition of Tunnel, for el presidente.
3
The real wall is the one between trump's brain and reality.
9
For those of you gaslighted into believing the wall must be built, I suggest you organize, raise funds, and start a campaign to convince Mexico to pay for it.
6
Why even entertain this nonsense? For Trump this is all about yet another ego trip. Paying for any type of wall is wasteful and silly. You can go over, under, or through a wall.
3
Worth a look -- a Mexico social design firm proposed this amazing design that pokes at our capitalist, xenophobic culture. https://inhabitat.com/mexican-designers-envision-trumps-border-wall-in-all-of-its-gorgeous-perversity/trump-wall03/?variation=b
2
Donald did not promise a wall. Stop writing that he did. He promised a “Mexico-paid-for-wall.” Every time a journalist changes that campaign promise to “wall” ie US-taxpayer-paid-for-wall - leaving out the most important campaign selling point of Mexico paying for it - they are accusing Donald of bait and switch.
There is no wall to be funded by US taxpayers. There is a Mexico-paid-for-wall that Donald is now making US taxpayers pay for. Headline: “Why is Donald forcing Americans to pay Mexico’s debt to America?”
9
I think you need to study the last few years of Trump’s campaigns. You’ll find that he has indeed promised a wall - to be paid for by Mexico. That is substantially different to demanding that Mexico pays their debt - a non-existent debt because they have not borrowed anything from the US. If you believe that Mexico owes the US, then you have to ask why this wasn’t factored into NAFTA 2.
2
1). Never, ever trust anything that comes out if trumps mouth. He is a liar and a fraud. He might agree to something only to stab you in the back with it when he renegs and lies his way out of it
2). See rule number 1
3). Don’t expect trump to Change his actions. He won’t
4). Stand your ground and never, ever back down. Make him own this.
8
@FDNYMom
As a former New York deputy mayor once said:
“I wouldn’t believe Donald Trump if his tongue were notarized.”
2
Just admit it; White Supremecy is what powers Trump and his supporters. Fear of brown people fuels them; the wall is the symbol of what they think will save them from the increasing number of brown people in America. No money for the wall. Not now ; not ever. Jan 3 Pelosi will get the Govt open again; Trump/GOP will be saddled with the blame. Dems must investigate and prosecute the corrupt GOP administration and enablers. Ray Sipe
5
Hadrian
Emperor Qin Shi Huang
Maginot
All built walls to keep the barbarians at bay.
All failed.
Shall we learn from history...or repeat?
5
Your theory falls apart when you add in Maginot. He didn’t build a wall to keep barbarians out - his line (not a wall) was a series of fortifications against Germany during a world war.
2
The real cause of the impasses/shutdowns are the 20 years of tax breaks that have directly caused the out of control national debt..
Remember in the most recent tax break, one of the 1%'ers received a one time $12B.
If the Trump/GOP really wanted the wall , that $12B would have covered the cost.
7
All of us (including this Democrat) are in favor of border security. That's not the issue. I don't remember anyone complaining when the current sections of wall were built.
The issue at this point is whether any additional sections of wall will actually be effective or whether the billions necessary are a waste of money. The non-fenced border areas are apparently in more desolate places, and not near roads or cities. In other words, more wall equals overkill.
Is there anyone who really believes that this is anything but a simple power thing with Trump?
15
Everything in politics is about power.
Trump is fulfilling s campaign promise. Something every president does and should do. This issue must be fixed once and for all so that immigrants can come here legally and take every advantage the US has to offer them and so that both Democrats and Republicans stop using it as a wedge issue. Trump is tough enough to see this through and he should.......no,
must see it through.
@JAC He never promised that the American taxpayer would foot the bill. His exact campaign promise was that Mexico would pay for the wall. That's how cons work, in this case, the old bait and switch tactic.
3
No, he shouldn’t. “Artistic steel slats” were never promised to anyone, and won’t solve the US’s immigration problems.
Several thoughts re claimed security a wall/fence should provide but gives only an ambience of security:
Russian supersonic missiles and Russia most likely establishing a base in Venezuela. No wall is going to stop that especially when that technology is sold to rogue states.
The isolationist view of the current administration is not the way human beings live. We are not hermits by nature and neither are countries.
The cheaper option, and way more secure, is to overhaul the antiquated immigration laws, legalise the status quo ( let it go, let it go ) and move on. Learn from the mistakes made in the past.
Use 'smart' intelligence plus technology to monitor your frontiers. One enabler to that goal is by listening and resourcing what Border Patrol officers require.
5
How about planting a hedge? A beautiful hedge?
It will serve no safety purpose. But a generous gesture - to make the border look good.
Tongue in cheek...
4
Shrubbery. We can hire some tall knights to guard it.
4
Any wall needs to include consideration and design measures to maintain wildlife corridors! Animals don't pay attention to political boundaries. The world does not belong to America.
5
Wall!
No Wall!
Mexico pays!
The USA taxpayers pay!
These are just distractions from a bigger issue of who our governement should function and who is running it.
Should we allow governance by hostage taking (the govenment) and extortion (you pay)? Or 5th grade tactics (I want my way or I take my ball and go home!). Is that what American really looks like?
More importantly should a shadow force of Fox News, Ann Couture, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh to have the ulitimate power? Where does their policy and veto powe come from? There is no doubt that we are here today because of the shadow force used their proxy veto to set aside the bi-partisan deal that was worked out and had been agreed to by Trump.
6
@Marie - that was supposed to be:
These are just distractions from a bigger issue of HOW our governement should function and who is running it.
1
CT Senator Chris Murphy’s comment posted on Twitter yesterday:
“Hey guess what? If Trump REALLY cared about the border, he wouldn’t have:
1. SHUT DOWN INDEFINITELY the department that oversees the border.
2. Left unspent 94% of the border improvement funding Congress gave him over the last 2 years.
Right?”
14
you have to give trump credit for realizing that if you don't have a reasonable solution, he can make good money by prolonging the problem.
6
A wall, no matter how high and how strong is just a wall. A determined drug smuggler or terrorist will always find a way to breach most physical barriers. A wall is a naive, and very retro way of providing border security. But the insistence of a "WALL" comes from a president who is extremely naive, uneducated and lacking in critical thinking skills. Yes, we need border security; but is a wall the best way to achieve border security? Let's have a panel of experts debate this and provide a solution that will really work. The "ideas" of this delusional adolescent POTUS will not provide the border security that America really needs.
4
Call it a wall, call it a fence, or, if you prefer a Clinton term call it a 'barrier'. Don't care what you call it, just fund it and send the message that our border is not unprotected. Go further than that if you want to prove to the voters you care about their welfare and make it much harder for those who do cross to be able to work, or at least get paid. 2020 is coming fast and if it arrives with no change in our how people come here, it will be democrats who pay the price.
2
Interestingly, the border IS protected. It will never be perfect, but it’s protected, and the Democrat-signed Bill would have funded it to the tune of an additional 1.3B. More than enough!
@GregP. $5 bill will not fund it. It will be more like $25 bill, and then you have to have security and maintenance forever. And it still won't work. Wake up and get some sense.
3
A “Trump Wall” is not necessary. It will not really keep “illegals” out from coming in. To stop illegal immigration we need to develop security through technology and stop abuse of visas. And employers bear responsibility for whom they hire. Will the “wall” have a Trump sign?
4
We sooo need this wall because we are in such danger of being overrun by people who want to milk our cows, pick our fruit, clean our hotel rooms, etc etc. Of course the real reason we are at this impasse is because our toddler in chief allows the government to be run by right-wing radio and television.
11
I'm still holding out for Mexico paying for it and seeing trumps tax returns.
11
Let's call it what it is---Donald Trump's Spite Fence.
12
Doesn't matter what they call it, or for that matter what it is. It will do nothing other than to make make some contractors more wealthy so they can donate to Trump. The wall is a joke, and to buy it you have to be conned or stupid - or both.
8
So, $1.3 billion for 96 miles of border wall comes out to roughly $2,565 per linear foot.
4
Seems reasonable. Have you seen his hotels?
Both Houses ought to be able to negotiate and pass a CR without bothering with the liar in the WH. Pass it and override his veto if necessary. Trump is being catered to far too much by the Republicans. Just admit that he's an incompetent fool and proceed to govern without paying attention to his delusions, lies, and tantrums. Do the equivalent of putting him on the naughty step.
8
For everyone blaming anyone but the Trump, he promised Mexico would pay for this thing. Post your comments in El Universal (Mexico City's paper). Your demagogue could use the support.
8
Why exactly is his campaign promise to Build That Wall somehow now much more important than his simultaneous promise that Mexico would pay for it (even though it is to be in U.S. territory)?
Why is his fictitious abrupt Crisis at our Southern Border so vital that we must have a partial shutdown without it (just brfore the Dems take the House)? Why are children suffering and dying to protect us from people who need safety and honest work? Why is our annual season of Peace and Love being stained by such stupidity and bigotry?
15
So true. It begs the question - why are journalists seemingly too scared? to write “Mexico-paid-for-wall” which was his campaign promise.
Are we still back in 2016 journalistic coverage which was either too naive or too conceptual to write about what was actually there.
4
Dems should just include a border barrier authorization that is activated ONLY IF the sovereign country of Mexico sends a check of equal amount to the US Treasury.
Trump should put up or shut up.
12
If only we had known that by "the wall" Trump meant "a hot fudge sundae with extra sprinkles".
2
Where are hearings? Where is the expert testimony? Even if he were given his $5B to reopen the government, how many miles of "wall" can be built? Like so many things with Donald Trump, he can't specify what he wants because he doesn't know, and what he thinks he knows, he has no data or evidence that support the claimed benefits.
7
He’s a child, as many others have said before me. It takes no particular skill to throw a tantrum, as Trump has proven and will continue to prove for the next two (or, God help us, six) years.
Dear Democrats:
With acknowledgment to the dear departed Barbara Bush (speaking on another topic, of course), "Just say NO WALL!" Ample commentary from political and policy experts and our thoroughly informed NYT commentariat exist upon which to build a pragmatic resolution to address border security.
1. Remind everyone who is a party to the negotiations that a wall is not "whatever you want to call it," as Trump has attempted to suggest in his naive linguistic legerdemain. I doubt he has consulted the OED. Perhaps one of the remaining "Mensas" he has surrounded himself with can help him out with that one.
2. Consider the effectiveness of emphasizing reliance on a technology triad: subterranean monitoring for tunneling, ground level barriers where viable, and continuous aerial surveillance implemented by thoroughly trained personnel as appropriate. In no case shall the onerous "eminent domain" option be imposed on private land owners who do not want to sell their land.
3. Track every dollar of corporate and taxpayer investment, evaluate the success of any proffered solution, and publish an annual report to We the People through the Congressional website
4. Finally, as to the financial hardship imposed by this President on Federal workers and the independent contractors, perhaps a Go Fund Me page, administered by a responsible independent accounting firm could be established. I suspect many of us who feel their pain would be willing to step up and contribute.
4
Trump has already said he will take responsibility for shutting down the United States government to get his wall. We relent to his demands only knowing he will do it again, and again - whenever he wants something he can't have.
4
Will Mexico at least pay for a beaded curtain? Nice shrubbery? Mr. Art Of The Deal, who promised Mexico would pay and who shouldn't be asking anything of our own taxpayers, should be able to get SOMETHING out of them, rather than demanding billions from the budget while cutting back on food stamps for low-wage working Americans.
6
Isn't his shutdown shutting down federal agents at the existing wall? Is he properly funding our existing borders? If the answer to either question is no, than this border wall crisis is nothing but nonsense, and should be ridiculed.
3
All sides openly ranting are behaving badly.
All side must first agree that boarder security is essential and refugees will be treated with full accord of all laws.
Next, chain link fencing must be replaced ASAP. New high wall section placement must be determined by bipartisan, independent committee of experts who develop a coordinated plan that includes barriers, manned posts and electronic surveillance that will include monitoring for tunnels (drug dealers' favorite).
1
@Jim. At least you recognize that the $5 billion is a drop in the bucket. The maintenance and security for the thing you describe will be astronomical, and the thing STILL won't work. Is it "behaving badly" to oppose a multi-billion dollar boondoggle that won't work?
1
the solution is to stabilize central America, politically and economically. and to stop climate change that will create millions of migrants from all over the world. but clearly, president Geisha (the art of bowing) is not the right person to achieve those urgent goals.
5
Trump recently believes the wall/fence is absolutely needed for adequate border security. And the "experts" agree with him and said so to Congress. The Commissioner of the Border Contro!, The Director of ICE, DHS and all local law enforcement agencies along the border. They further indicated that the eight prototypes are "practically impenatrible." The CBC had his agents try to breach them and couldn't. In fact, they also concluded that the height can be reduced to 24 feet from 30 without losing effectiveness and saving costs. The CBC told the Senate Armed Services Committee that what's needed is "1,100 miles in about thirty Sections. "
So, Schumer think of America not your leverage and partisanship, and approve $2-5 billion - less than 1/4% of the Federal Budget.
We don’t have to pay for it. Americans voted for Trump because this wall was free. Mexico would pay for it. If he was lying to them (where are all the month’s long negotiations between the president and Mexico?), they should be given their vote back.
This has nothing to do with Congress - dem or rep. The only ones that should be in this negotiation should be Trump and the president of Mexico. How are those negotiations going? It’s been two years.
Wasn’t Trump the deal guy?
5
@Frank Leibold. Nobody said your $2-5 bill would pay for it. What Trump has been describing will cost $25 bill, not $5 bill, and that does not include security and maintenance for as long as they thing exists, and it still won't work. Ever heard of tunnels? Seen the photos of people sitting on top of the existing barriers? Get real.
In our opinion, the wall is nothing more than a monument by Trump for Trump. But if by any chance it does get built here's an idea. The burden of any cost overruns from what Americans are told it will cost and what it does cost are the contractors burden, so make sure you get it right the first time before making any promises to us which most if any of us don't believe in the first place. What Trump promises his minority of voters shouldn't be a mandate for the majority of Americans that didn't vote for Trump. That money should be spent on infrastructure ….remember that? That and taking care of the plastics mess in our oceans. Lets get ouir priorities straight and not allow Trump to bamboozle us again because he has the bigger mouth.
3
Has anyone remarked on the beauty of the photograph for this piece? In a random post, I just wanted to say how I, for one, think your taste in photography is as good as the content itself.
As a San Diego local, this one especially hit home.
2
Trump made people work without pay, fired someone, and his policy led to the death of a child, and all for Christmas.
What the fudge kind of people want that?
3
Who will pay for the wall? Mexico!
So Trump lied.
Not only did he lie but all the people chanting "Mexico!" knew Trump was lying. So they were lying too when the replied "Mexico!"
They lied back to Trump. Lied to those who would hear their call. Everyone knew that it was a lie. And they were OK with that because what they really wanted was a wall. If it took a lie to get it, they were and are OK with that. They knew we would pay for it. And by "we" they knew that once again the blue states, that pay the majority into the federal coffers that the red states collect from, would pay.
That is why all you hear about now is "the Wall", "border security" where all mention of Mexico paying has been conveniently forgotten in the mutal lie. Not one of his supporters can be heard saying: "I am upset that he promised a wall and that Mexico would pay for it. Why should I pay? Why is he coming to us to pay?"
4
Don the Con does not really care about border security. If he did, then improvements to the existing border wall would have been made already that could have genuinely moved the notion of "border security" forward to achieve a better result.
I continue to be dismayed at the snow job about the "wall" he attempts to lay on his so-called base. After a significant tax cut for the very wealthy, spending an estimated 20 Billion on an illusory "new" wall is a cataclysmic waste of precious resources that will NOT improve our border security. It's nothing but a big lie perpetrated on a group of people who need a lot more help with health insurance, job training and adequate food supply that 20 Billion could jump start.
It's another TV show. This one is failing miserably in the ratings. This shame on Don the Con and his GOP will last for generations.
3
“We need a wall,” Mr. Trump said during a visit to American troops in Iraq. “We need safety for our country. Even from this standpoint.”
Who does the president think believes these statements? The unwalled Rio Grande river has separated Texas from Mexico since 1845. What has happened in recent years to cause a Trump’s “dire emergency?”
There has been no coast to coast wall for 175 years. There is no need for one now.
The president is promoting ethnic prejudice and irrational fear.
6
This discussion is obtuse. The "definition of the wall" is based on melanin content in human skin not steel or cement. It's about Trump's bigotry and, along with his very disturbed following, clinging to the myth that they can maintain white supremacy and genetic purity in America. Most certainly the wall supporters don't want to admit that. Now, it seems both the national press and the (Democratic) opposition are afraid to mention it the for fear of being accused of playing the race card and identity politics. The best definition of "The Wall"? It's the most striking example of the fact that we still don't know how to talk about race and ethnicity in America.
3
Let's just call it "one ego-drive fool's obsession with building a taxpayer-funded monument to himself."
5
Floating an alternative to a wall:
Move to a cashless economy, in which no paper money or coins are used, and everybody has to use a particular credit or debit card, which is only available to persons or companies legally in this country. No more underground economy. Of course, that cuts two ways: illegal immigrants can't pull untaxed dollars out of the economy (a favorite concern of tRumpists), but corporations can't hire them at reduced wages, and low-income Americans can't supplement their benefits with side jobs. As a side benefit, tax revenues should increase handsomely when all that invisible income is captured. Which side do you think would prevail?
(Yes, I know the tech problems, and hacks, would be legion, and yes, I know such a system carries the risk of unwarranted tracking, whether by government or by corporations. My point is, we need a 21st century approach, not a 5th-century one.)
5
@Terry
It's certainly not a bad idea.
1
@Terry
An interesting idea, but one that will NEVER be instituted.
Bribes, kickbacks, illegal campaign contributions, under-the-table payments, cash “bonuses”, the illegal market in recreational drugs...
What part of our bloated defense budget do you suppose is siphoned into the off shore bank accounts of corrupt individuals?
Cash and secrecy are needed to sustain these major American economic activities.
3
Trump is so in love with Putin and his world view is so 1950's white nationalist we should call it "The Iron Curtain".
7
This is his majesty's wall ... this democrats need to let him own it ... Please Democrats Do Not Be Defensive ... Do Not Back Down Now ... please ...
8
MAGA_Wall. If we actually needed said designer~Wall...to keep all those bad bad people out, (insert crazy people with red hats shouting here), what would the final tab to Trumps ~slat fence be? 16 Billion? Uh huh, that and a 10K toilet seat thrown in for free. Surely it will cost more. What crony will win that bid to build? Shall we put a gold Trump sign on it... Amerika’ for sale to the highest bidder. Would the crazies shut up then? Don’t think so folks, this non - solution is an insane ruse by a man who falls in love with despots and fascist. No Donald, larger hands will not help your tiny ego. Smoke and mirrors and walls will not protect you in 2019, we are coming after your tax records, gonna prosecute your crimes and will follow the dirty money all the way to the day we get to run you and your crony sycophants out of town!
5
A dumb discussion by people who do not want to find a solution only make their own political hay.A waste of tax payers $$
5
This is what the founders worried about. Demagogues sloganeering to a restless mob. Drill baby drill, build that wall.
It's as if Sarah Palin actually did become president. Only worse.
The takeover of the Republican party by Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity and their hateful collaborators is complete.
We must fight their stupid and we don't want a stupid wall!
16
A wall is would be the biggest waste of money in US history. The only reason to insist on a stupid medieval wall is ego.
6
Don’t tell me now that Democrats will support the construction of a fence but not a wall. And the media never told me. Pathetic.
2
Grow up America. Your problems are not migrants. Your problem is the rot from within.
12
I presume the Democrats will reward the hard work and donations of their base by caving to Trump's idiotic racist wall as soon as possible.
It's what they do.
While oh-so-proper reporters continues to equivocate, obfuscate and euphemize, our republic is dying.
Do your job, NYT. Call the powerful to account. Call lies lies.
11
I was going to build a fence around my backyard but when I learned that there are both kids and dogs that that climb over or dig under my backyard fence, I came to realize “what’s the point of a backyard fence?” And to think of all those silly Americans who invest in a silly picket fence for absolutely no reason!
2
I would like to increase the number of immigrants we take in and at the same time give the people seeking asylum a fair shot at making their case.
4
@Areader
Until you are ready to give them your job its just empty words. You are wanting to give them things that don't cost you anything. How big of you. Put some sacrifice on your wish and maybe it would mean something.
@GregP
With full employment we really need more workers. No one should sacrifice anything if we plan it right.
1
@Areader
Every truck driver in the country will be looking for a job in about 5 years. Never heard of robots huh? We do not need more labor and your belief otherwise is disturbing.
"Mr. Trump has taken to intermittently calling his barrier a wall or 'aesthetically pleasing steel slats.'”
So now he's thinking what? Christo's Fence?
6
"You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear." "The emperor has no clothes." Why are you accommodating the delusions of Donald Trump? The Wall. no matter the delusional terminology used. is still a wall conceived by an unstable mind.
6
This "find the right word idea" is a foolish premise. Trump just wants to win, the money will be wasted, and playing word games is silly. The US government is not kindergarten. Republicans and Democrats and White House seemed to agree on an amount to spend before the FoxNews people interfered. Knock it off, kiddies, or go to the time-out corner.
4
The spiked fence in photos tweeted by trump weaponizes the border. Two young children seeking asylum died within the past 3 weeks. No discussion until Trump provides answers on these deaths and a full accounting of how he spent the $1.5Billion he received for border security in last year's budget.
Impaling immigrants on border fences takes us back to the days of Genghis Khan.
5
I am very frustrated that the Democrats have not mounted a more robust offensive campaign to demonstrate how utterly foolish the concept of the wall really is. Yes, some portion of Trumps sycophantic base will never let go, but there is certainly a majority of Americans capable of understanding reason. Trump knows only how to build garish monuments to himself. He has coupled this with driving fear of others. His position is so blatant, so crude and simplistic, yet the oppositional voice is as helpless to respond as a playground victim of a loutish bully.
11
Everything the occupier of the White House does to supposedly make America great does exactly the reverse. He hurts our people while aggrandizing himself and expect us to be grateful. Short summary for Emperor Benedict Donald: all Americans want reasonable and humane border security. Most Americans are smart enough to realize a wall in any form you are proposing is nothing but a political billy club. Shame on you for underestimating the majority of us.
6
The Great Wall of Chin neither stopped the outsiders from getting in, nor stopped the Chinese from getting out. Trump's idea of a " beautiful, concrete wall " is nothing but a foolish idea of a megalomaniac.
3
Mexico would be paying for the wall. People who lie to get voted should be held accountable for their lies. Why doesn’t anyone question his majesty pointedly about Mexico paying for it? Why don’t the democrats bluntly repeat what he claimed? Are they cowards ?
8
Tramp never promised a wall, he promised a wall Mexico would pay for!
That said, the wall is just a diversion from addressing comprehensive immigration reform.
10
“Something there is that doesn’t like a wall...” as Poet Robert Frost once wrote.
3
I think I understand "wall" from the Republican standpoint:
Primarily, unlike algebra, "a wall is a concept that can be easily grasped and experienced with a minimal degree of stress." This would be in contradiction to things like women's rights, voting rights, national debt, social security, health care, global warming, or nuclear holocaust. In other words it's bedrock in an unpleasantly ever-shifting universe that requires certain fundamental awareness and even flexibility.
And after all, who in their so-called RIGHT mind would want to deal with such a concept when cheering for idiotic wars that are never going to be winnable and the current nit-wit in the White House is so much easier.
6
For a hundred buck from each of Trump's supporters, they could have their $5 billion, especially when put together with the billion Trump hasn't spent.
The real issue, is not the money. It's what kind of nation are we, what kind of people.
I hope America says NO to ugly Republican Christians and their horrible god.
11
Ban Landmines as soon as possible. They are not an answer for our border.
1
So one is racist to want a wall but sensible to build a fence. Surely this is a parody.
Get a model of a wall the scale of the Stonehenge prop from the movie Spinal Tap. Take photographs with it that would convince the average orangutan. Done.
1
This is so not about the money. We let the Pentagon spend more with no protest. It's about what should be our country's main symbol: the Statue of Liberty, or The Wall? Are we a unique idealistic experiment, or just another gated community?
The symbols we choose will shape our values. If we, as a country, embrace walling ourselves off as the go-to answer, this will color our treatment not just of foreigners, but of fellow citizens. "America first" segues naturally into "my state first", "my town first", and so on. When we can't recall what held us together, we'll look at the wall and say -- "Keeping Mexicans out, was that it?"
8
Trump can get his wall and in return Democrats should demand DACA is resolved and a more permanent fix to our immigration crisis. And the crisis isn't illegal immigrants coming in, it's not enough Americans being born to sustain the growth we need long term to compete with China. We all know Trump's idea of a negotiation is he gets everything he wants and everyone else has to feel like they lost, enough is enough, Trump has to learn to give in order to get.
4
What is needed is a physical barrier that effectively impedes border crossings by people, and prevents crossings by vehicle. Whether it is a "wall", or "fence" is not important as long as it effectively impedes border crossings.
Physical barrier, unlike sensors, solve the problem of catch, release, and disappear because you don't get caught if you can't get in. Sensor help people get caught after entry.
People argue a physical barrier is not needed because most who are here illegally entered legally and then overstayed their Visa term. However Visa over-stayers met our standards for entering the country because they were able to obtain a Visa.
Also, a physical barrier is less subject to a President who disagrees with the immigration laws, ignoring his/her Constitutional duty to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed" and refuses to dedicate resources to enforcing the law. Constitutionally, Congress makes laws and the President "faithfully" enforces them, whether he likes them or not.
"All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States,... "
With a physical barrier, should we ever decide to make open borders the law, we can simply let people through ports of entry or tear them down. Presently, we do not have open borders and the rule of law requires border enforcement.
John
1
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the "shutdown" affects only executive branch departments under the oversight of the president and his cabinet secretaries. Since I disagree strongly with the direction that Trump's appointees are taking the country -- polluting the air, opening public lands to drilling, ignoring veterans, privatizing the schools, etc. -- then by all means keep that part of the government shut down as long as it takes to make Trump cave. Less activity by the executive branch equals less damage done.
2
The world is getting smaller, bridges are better aligned with the future than walls. The west shares as much of its ancestry with Mexico and Central America as it does with the east coast. We should be building on those ties not denying them.
6
What’s astounding to most people is how little they notice the government shutdown. Oh sure, the press is playing it up all it can about closed national parks and how overpaid govt employees don’t know how they’ll make ends meet. But the truth is, our government does very little that on a daily basis for the average American who works for a living.
Apparently you haven't read the stories about the contract employees, such as janitors and other maintenance staff, who are not getting paid. They are low wage workers for whom every paycheck counts. If it drags on long enough, all those people expecting tax refunds will be waiting a long time.
1
Why are we punishing government employees that have absolutely nothing to do with the shutdown nor do they have any say or control over the shutdown. The people who should be penalized and lose their pay are all members of Congress and their entire staffs. The President and his staff including every White House and west wing employee, cooks, maids, operators etc. Let's see how long that shutdown would last?
7
I have a bad feeling the Democrats and the Republicans are going to come to an agreement. They're going to put landmines along the border. It is more of a deterrent than a wall but not quite as humane. We can only hope for the best.
1
Robert Frost wrote about walls years ago and the futility of its use to block passage.
"something there is that doesn't love a wall"
his poem also suggests that "good fences make good neighbors"
that may be true when both sides want a barrier between spaces and are willing to take the time to mend the wall when it is broken, whether by people, animals, nature, or elves.
that doesn't appear to be the case on a border wall - except that it doesn't take much to make a gap "where even two can pass abreast."
the wall is a promise that will never be kept even if "a wall or fence or whatever you want to call it" is erected. it's nothing more than a boast that the president bet so much on that he can't let go. it reinforces the rants of racists who don't understand that this is almost 2019 and we aren't going back to 1950.
immigration reform is needed, but a wall doesn't accomplish anything more than wasting money - i wonder who will build it (check the president's biggest donors or his construction company friends.) if it's anything like the buildings with his name on them, it will almost surely be poor quality, not built to last, with many sections unclosed, but providing a long stream of income to those chosen to mend it.
i hope those suffering from the shutdown and those who voted for him will come to realize that he's too stubborn and ignorant to come up with something creative to deal with immigration.
2
Democrats and Republicans in Congress. You can stop this. Draft a bill that enough of you in both sides can vote for, in a veto-proof margin. Done.
1
Fences or Walls. Really? Tell me this debate is an optical illusion
1
Trump crazily and falsely promised in 2016 that he would build a wall and make mexico pay for it and there were many crazy people, almost all of them xenophobic right wing republicans, who supported him for it and still support him for it. It is not lost on Trump. He could also have funded it in 2017 or before the mid term election in 2018, when the Gop had majorities in the two houses. Instead he is making the wall an issue now and has forced a shutdown. The market, already alarmed by his trade tariffs and his craziness has plumetted by 15 to 30 percent since october. It has again fallen today. 60 percent of americans oppose the wall for good reasons, mainly they dont want craziness and politics. Illegal border crossings have dropped by 82 percent since 2000. 35000 border security agents are deployed already at a cost of billions. There is no need for a costly wall. Babies are dying on the border because of trump’s unnecessary cruelty. No wall. Move on to other things
6
This article, and it seems every other article I've read over the last couple of weeks, ignores the critical point that the shutdown concerns only a down payment on The Wall. Earlier this year, the Democrats offered to approve Trump's demand for $25 billion for his wall if the bill also included protections for Dreamers. Trump refused, but his demand set the floor for the cost to build The Wall.
What happens if Trump gets his $5 billion? He starts construction, but with only 20% of the funds he needs (genius businessman?). Then, he has to come back next year and the next until he gets an additional $20 billion to actually complete construction.
Who thinks a Democrat-majority House of Representatives is going to approve more funding for The Wall? Trump's only leverage after January 1 is to shut down the government every time an appropriations bill doesn't include more funding for The Wall.
So, Trump and the GOP have shut down part of the federal government because they don't have the votes to authorize starting construction on a project that will never be fully funded. In effect, they want to build the keel for an aircraft carrier, just to say they're restoring our military might, when they know it's unlikely there will ever be money to construct the rest of the ship.
The Democrats are once again proving to be the better guardians of the public purse. The $5 billion will be wasted: Trump might as well flush it down a $14,000 Pentagon toilet.
7
He signs his name "@real Donald Trump", but there is, in fact almost nothing real about this man. His life has been constructed on a series of lies and fantasies that he has attempted to sell , sometimes successfully,to the public. He did this first as a real estate developer and now he is doing it as a sitting president.
Somebody needs to tell this sick and misguided man that the truth actually does matter , maybe not to him , but to roughly 300 million Americans.
And since he has never taken responsibility for anything in his life and has never apologized to anyone, my guess is that the only people he will listen to are those who have the power to hurt him.
Maybe when his fellow Republicans finally wake up to the truth, he will listen to them.
1
Wall. - any high vertical surface or facade, especially one that is imposing in scale. “The eastern wall of the valley”.
Wall. - a thing perceived as a protective or restrictive barrier. “A wall of silence”.
Seems we already have a lot of “wall” in San Diego County along the southern border.
1
A Wall will be a short time obstacle for coyotes with steel cutters. The remaining 2000 miles of the "wall" to is to go through private land. We can expect thousands of law suits, very big expenses and probably big gaps for exceptions such as golf courses and private wealthy neighborhoods. (What! ruin my view!) The influx of immigrants directly related to no jobs, corrupt government and gangs. These are the things that ,if corrected, will stop the immigrants ,not a wall, not 30,000 police, not billions of dollars at the border.
2
What will the migrants do when "The Wall" is built? I am sure they will turn around and walk back 2000 miles instead of just leaning a ladder up against The Wall. Is Trump going to ban ladders on the Mexican side of the border too? When a rope and ladder is all it takes, we are burning money on a useless edifice. Security requires boots on the ground, but The Great Leader wants a monument to himself and therefore some guys sitting in the desert won't do.
2
Walls work - if the walls are manned. Isn’t that obvious to everyone?
It would be a terrible precedent to cave to a President blackmailing Congress, even if it's accomplished by redefining the word wall. We've never had to endure such a disgusting abuse of power.
I don't believe there has ever been a time when a shutdown was called over something that was not legislated into the budget. It's making a farce of democracy.
Nor have I ever seen a President using federal workers and their families as hostages. It's despicable.
He is a repugnant criminal unfit for public service, and he's the face of today's Republican Party. It is sickening and frightening.
Thank you Mike, thank you Mitch for making us put up with this amoral and un-American abomination. Show us some semblance of honor and patriotism.
5
How does the shutdown of any government benefit its people?
As a Brit, I find it very foreign and bewildering. (Permit me an "Emperors new clothes moment"...)
It seems that your government is (once again) imperiling the livelihoods of thousands of its employees whilst undermining its credibility simply because the "law makers" have unresolved issues.
really???
This is like some kind of abusive, destructive, absurd collateral damage happening in your own back yard. And yet, in this column you focus on who is winning the fist-fight in White house rather than shout about the absurdity of the situation.
Sorry to say this but a government that punishes its people whilst making them watch their politicians scrapping deserves nothing better than a Trump-like leader.
But putting all the whys and wherefores to one side for a moment, please explain:
How does the shutdown of any government benefit its people?
12
I prefer a clean CR and overriding the president’s veto. I’m sure Republicans would never defy the dear leader like that, but it would establish congress as a coequal branch of government rather than the president’s lap dog. It is immoral to ask federal workers to work without pay. As for the ridiculous wall, it was never a real thing. It was an applause line at rallies. It was a racist, anti-immigrant dog whistle. Now it’s a political stunt by the Trumpists. Any reasonable person supports border security. We need a 21st century border, not a 15th century border. We need to get at the root cause of the migration problem. We’ll lerch from crisis to crisis until Trump is out of office.
18
Candidate Trump's "#1 Promise" to the American people was that Mexico would pay for the wall.
Sorry Donnie...No pesos, no wall.
However if Mexico somehow changes its mind and delivers the $25 billion in cash for the wall, Trump may certainly start building this ugly monument to himself.
Meanwhile, on Jan 3rd, Democrats should pass legislation to re-open the government and once again approve their original agreed upon amount ($1.6 bilion?) for maintaining Border Security.
12
@JM I'm just hoping the Democrats don't think landmines are a better idea than a wall.
Dems should give at least 25b on border security but should specify what the money should be used for. If they only want 2b for the wall, approve only that amount. I think the Dems are under estimating how many people want a stronger border
1
Trump has had two years with Republican majorities in both house and Senate. If Republicans want a wall so badly they should pass a wall. Clearly even Republicans don't like Trump's plan. Now he's closing the government and trying to blame Democrats over his failures, because he can't get his ducks lined up. All this disruption sits squarely on Republican shoulders.
9
Soon it will be a metaphorical "wall". Trump will maniacally declare "I won"--just as he declared victory over ISIS, just as Bush in a leather jacket on a navy ship declared victory in Iraq.
Behind Bush a banner proclaimed victory. It was later erased from replays--since the war was dragging on and on--even when Iraqi WMD was proven fraud, even when the Iraq-Bin Laden connection was proven fraud.
It's all in keeping with Trump business and GOP political marketing--BaitnSwitch fraud.
Mexico would pay for the wall he said. Now, like a good Russian agent, he shuts down US government because Democrats won't bill Americans billions for Trump's "edifice complex" (Krugman).
To be fair, what president (or politician) keeps all his/her promises? So all campaigning is baiting, all office holding is switching--when reality sets in--while whining that the previous admin was worst than anticipated.
Then they further pollute the swamp, spinning that as "draining".
GOP fraud in nothing new--Trump just raises the bar--he calls that "genius" business practice--the art of a Trump deal.
What's astounding is the gullibility of Americans and the popularity of Faux News. Soon there'll be GOP math, like GOP biology geology, astronomy and meteorology. If deficits balloon--contrary to the bait--that will be declared "Democrat Arithmetic".
4
Oh NO! my son said--you just gave they a new marketing tool.
How is it that federal employees can be forced to work in a shutdown but elected members of the house and Senate go home and take vacation when it is their failure to negotiate causing the shutdown? Congress has increased the misery of thousands of people and put the country at risk. They should not be allowed to leave Washington, working weekends, until there is a funded government. This is the way it works for salaried employees in the private sector. You work until the job is done. What a disgrace this president and the entire Congress is.
14
I laugh when I see the pro-trump opinions. Yes blame the Democrats for this impass - all the while the whining majority party has had nearly two years to pass legislation. Instead we get proclaiming.
The Party of No Federal Government has absolutely no idea how to govern effectively. They have a petulant leader who simply does not care.
On January 3 a budget will pass the house, then the senate, then screwball will have to sign it. After all, the Secret Service isn’t being paid too!
Whining being replaced with action. Sounds like Democrats at work to me!
6
No wonder nothing gets done. It's a 115 mile contract. That must take an enormous amount of paper.
4
The Democrat signed the secure border fence act of 2006, with both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in support. Before running for president Clinton was vocally anti illegal as was Obama and both espoused border sovereignty because they had some measure of respect for the country.
The Democrats can call it the Game of Thrones Wall if they want but will probably stick with what they are most comfortable with these days.....hypocrisy. The President should stand his ground and solve this problem once and for all...
2
@JAC Not hypocritical at all. Indeed, you just cited evidence that undermines the Trump/ Fox News lie that the Dems want open borders and don't support border security. Accordingly, the wall is not necessary, and a waste of money. Besides, Trump promised that Mexico would pay for the Wall. Why aren't you holding him --or the House Republicans who didn't fund a wall these past two years--accountable?
1
JoAnn
I do hold the Republicans responsible for not standing with the president when they had the chance.
Immigrants deserve the opportunity to come here legally, to take full advantage of what the US had to offer. Let’s not forget that Hillary advocated for an OPEN border policy when she ran for president. One of the many errors that cost her the election.
So he claims he signed a contract for 115 miles of wall on the border between Texas and Mexico. First of all this just flat out isn't true, and even if it was, 115 miles in Texas is nothing. Has he ever actually seen the Texas/Mexico border?
Trump- Keep your campaign promise and get Mexico to pay for the wall. That is what you said you would do. No where, at any time during your campaign did you say that the United States tax- payers were going to pay for your wall.
Man up and pay for it yourself if you can't keep your campaign promise of "Mexico will pay for the wall!"
5
I live on the border and have driven along wild stretched where it would be impossible and absurd to build a physical barrier. There are so many reasons why a gigantic wall all along the border would not be efficient or effective. Not to mention that this president has greatly increased the deficit already, so no massive amounts of money to build a useless wall!
This man acts like a petulant child rather than a responsible leader.
We all want border security and we know no wall will deter all those who want to cross. We really need a comprehensive, compassionate but clear policy on immigration, refugees and to continue the border security and efforts already in place.
17
Is re-opening the government worth a few billion dollars? Probably. But what Trump is doing is essentially holding the country hostage with fear, and America does not negotiate with terrorists. Donald Trump owns this shutdown. Let it fester until people are so mad they take to the streets. Maybe then we can stop having children die in cages on our border.
I know it’s hard, Democrats, to watch the country in pain. Hundreds of thousands of civil servants are suffering right now, and the millions they serve, because the Republican party is too frightened to admit to the people they duped that their wall was a farce designed to stoke their fears. It would be a simple thing to acquiesce to the wall and re-open the government, but we all know what happens when you give a mouse a cookie.
6
The solution is The Wall. Set up huge loudspeakers and play the Pink Floyd album at top volume. Would-be crossers will fire up, pass it around, then loll about stoned and unmotivated on the Mexican side.
5
trump has a personal interest in the shutdown continuing for as long as possible. he is represented by justice department attorneys in a number of cases. those cases can be put on hold because the justice department attorneys are prohibited from working while the shutdown is in effect (lack of funding). a request to stay the emoluments lawsuit has been granted by that court. similar requests have been made in other lawsuits.
2
What’s the difference what they call it? The point is that we are spending billions of taxpayer dollars on a barrier that will not make us substantially safer. All the while, vital infrastructure projects remain without funding. And to add insult to injury, the middle class keeps footing the bill while the rich pay less and less.
Bottom line. The democrats have the opportunity to seize the moment and become the savior of the working class and the nation in 2020. Let’s hope they get their collective act together!
3
Congressional republicans have abdicated their Constitutional role and authority to trump and the executive branch, and trump has nominated judges who support a strong executive. Congress needs to bring checks and balance back into the system. They can do that by passing a new funding resolution by a veto proof margin and overriding any objection trump has. It would be a small step for Congress but a giant step for the country.
2
I think we should make a real deal. If Trump resigns now he can have a show on PBS called the Last 100 Days. It will be shown every Sunday 8-10 pm. We will grant him a victory in the next election so the show will run for six years. And we will can see how it all winds down in the the end.
3
I fear these continuing negotiations is where Chuck Schumer will give in to Trump. Schumer has been a weak and ineffective leader in the Senate for the past two years. Many Democrats have accurately described him as "spineless." It's also not only a matter of standing strong, but of articulating clearly to the American public what Democrats believe is effective policy on border security. Again, Schumer is not the best leader to represent Democrats. He is not an articulate man, nor compelling. Democrats must resist Trump claiming a victory. Wait it out until January, when the House can pass a bill ending the government shutdown.
3
Has anyone asked the landowners along the Rio Grande River how a wall would effect them? Access to the river for water for cattle etc.? Fertile land along the river for growing crops. A magnificent national park that spans the border.
Would the government have to purchase land for the wall. Would the landowners be willing to sell their land?
3
Call it a wall, call it whatever -- as long as it satisfies Trump's ego, it will be satisfactory for our president. In this case, wall, in whatever form, simply means ego.
2
The right always claims that gun laws won't work because, no matter what, people will always find a way around them.
So how is the wall any different?
10
The one and only reason Trump wants this wall is because he made it the centerpiece of his campaign for the presidency. The news media needs to show clips from that campaign where Trump repeatedly states there will be a wall built and Mexico will pay for it. I have said it before, I would be happy to chip in to pay for commercials to run on Fox News and Rush Limbaugh's show with Trump stating that Mexico will pay for the wall. That was the promise. Democrats need to make that the issue.
In the meantime, federal workers are either furloughed without pay or having to work without pay. They are in effect being used to blackmail Democrats into caving on the wall issue. I hope the shut down comes to an end when Democrats take over the House in early January, so government workers will be able to pay for a roof over their heads and food to eat. I wish that Congresspeople and their staff members would not get paid when the government shuts down. I think we might see some bi-partisan negotiating to end whatever impasse there is.
There are no easy answers to illegal immigration, Europe is struggling with this issue as well. A wall is not an impenetrable barrier. There are tunnels under the existing barriers already in place, just as there were under the Berlin Wall. If people are desperate enough they will find a way to seek asylum. Wall or no wall. How many of our own ancestors came here seeking asylum from persecution or because they were starving?
3
The end of the shutdown depends upon the courage of Senate Republicans to override Trump’s veto. Congress had a bipartisan CR bill but was afraid to send it to Trump after he reneged about signing it. The solution is send it to Trump, let him veto it and then override. Congress needs to stick to its convictions.
2
The purpose of any wall is to keep people in when another major act of terrorism or unpopular war with a draft comes to America. Border police work both ways. Just ask former East Germans and Americans leaving the U.S. to go to Canada today.
Remember that the Border Patrol union endorsed Trump.
Your papers, please have become your biometrics, DNA,fingerprints , tablet and cell phone please.
I can't wait until we go to sectors and social credit. It will give no-fly lists a quaintness that people will long for.
3
The wall, whatever you call it, is a solution a political problem not a security problem.
I think Trump will shamefully create another crises once the wall issue is no longer prominent. If we had legitimate presidential advisers they would be huddling with the president to work on the wall and other issues. Instead we have Ivanka and Jared.
Isn't "the wall" only half of his "signature campaign promise." I recall the other half being "Mexico" when adoring throngs were implored to answer the question: "Who's gonna pay for it?"
3
Every day Nancy Pelosi should cite a new example of what $5 billion could be spent on that would be more beneficial to our country; i.e. medicaid for 1.4 million more people, increasing spending on climate change/adaptation, shortening wait times for veterans to get treatment for PTSD, etc.
5
"Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, the Democratic leader who is expected to be elected speaker next week, told USA Today: “He says, ‘We’re going to build a wall with cement, and Mexico’s going to pay for it’ while he’s already backed off of the cement. Now he’s down to, I think, a beaded curtain or something. I’m not sure where he is.”
It is exactly this kind of an irresponsibility that produced the crisis we now have with respect to illegal immigration. President Trump is more than right to shut down the government, as it seems to be the only way this kind of pervasive irresponsibility can be shaken into some basic sense. For decades the democrats have actually advocated for an open border. Even today they openly advocate sanctuary cities and states. This type of gross irresponsibility needs a rough shaking. If only someone like President Trump had existed when our own government officials started stealing from the social security "locked box." That's another crisis which will require a rough shaking. Perhaps a solution might be forcing the govenment to severly shrink, and use those dollars to pay back into the locked box. Maybe a similar approach can be found with the terribly costly and dangerous illegal immigration crisis. Build that wall!!
1
The Democrats should categorically refuse to allow further funding for any construction that can, by any semantic contortion whatsoever, be deemed a "wall". Trump has already begun to refer to a "steel barrier", believing that this will provide enough semantic cover for Democrats to tell their constituents that they prevented him from building a wall. Once he gets the funding, he can immediately return to calling it a wall.
One thing this presidency should by now have taught Americans is that symbols matter, and so do words. From day one, Americans have allowed a very foolish person, through an unremitting deluge of bold-faced lies, to undermine the integrity of our national ideals-- the meanings of our symbols and words.
The concern with illegal immigration is not really about "security" at all. For Trump and his core, security means fewer people unlike "us". (I write this within view of the Statue of Liberty, and I am thinking how remarkably the potency of its message seems to have been diluted in a mere two years).
The strategy of Democrats should be to reiterate that, yes, we are committed to reducing illegal immigration through enhanced enforcement of immigration laws, which were in fact policed very vigorously under the Obama administration; but that we will should return to the very fundamental task of reviewing the rationale for our immigration policies, as well as considering holistic international and economic solutions to the problem.
1
CBS News just reported over 68,000 families and over 13,000 unaccompanied children have come to the border and detained in the last TWO months.... Total chaos at the border.
We cannot solve the problems causing people to leave their counties in mass exodus by dumping them at the border creating dangerous unhealthy conditions. The left is encouraging this via fighting against a wall, border security.. A well funded, organized dog and pony show now generating mass illegal migration numbers never seen before..
It is wrong, dangerous, unhealthy and in no way solves the core problem. A complex problem but one those who are running away from need to own and resolve to change.
As a country we need to secure our borders and create an immigration system that is safe, fair and efficient for all..
1
Trump just wants his"big, beautiful,wall" so he can point at it and brag about it. A solid wall the entire length of the border would be a waste of money. It would also be infeasible in some places and ecologically damaging. We need good security, but should be using technology and a combination of human resources in addition to physical barriers. Unfortunately Mr. Trump is more interested in optics than thoughtfully addressing immigration and security.
2
As a 30-year government employee in the UK where government is always open for business I find the concept of a shutdown completely bewildering. And 3 in one year?
Government employees work hard, and many for modest pay. They deserve better!
I'm so infuriated that the person occupying the Oval Office is throwing people's livelihoods into turmoil because of his vanity project of a wall, and even more so by the GOP enablers letting him get away with it.
It's annoying me that essential government staff have to work for the Trumps over the festive season especially if some are not being paid. I'm sure the Secret Service and others would rather have spent some time with their families than go on a pointless round trip to Florida.
My heartfelt sympathies to all federal employees affected. I really hope that the New Year will bring some sanity to this situation.
116
@katy890
Katy ask us, In US Exclusively Republicans are using this issue for ransom.
Shutting down a government kind of a tribal act, because this clearly sends one message to anyone living on this planet in civilized world: Here in government what we are doing is not essential , in fact it is a leisure activity. that is what it means shutting down government or any respectable organization. Think that you are shutting down Microsoft, Chase bank, general electric because CEO and CFO didn't agree one item. that signals one thing this entire organization is a joke , closed or open is not important so we are closing foreseeable time.
wowwww. . Appalling
3
@katy890 Um, maybe government employees are not well paid in the UK, but they certainly are in the US. More than those in the private sector and that's before adding in a lifetime pension that is far too generous for working too few years. But, putting that aside, we've had 2 shutdowns this year. The first was staged by Schumer (a Dem). And most already received their last pay check for the year, so no one is in the trouble you seem to think.
1
I am troubled by this whole conversation for many reasons, not the least of which is the lack of compassion felt for people fleeing oppression.
There's another concern I don't hear mentioned. On whose land will the wall be built? Is some of that land privately owned? If so, then eminent domain proceedings may be needed. Is the cost of purchasing the land being factored into the cost of the wall?
4
@kengschwarz I, too, have questions about owners of land next to the border. What about ranches who depend on the Rio Grande for their ranching water supply.
1
Far from being a viable proposition Trump's wall obsession is simply an obstructive blackmailing tactic aimed to obstruct the government functioning and hold it hostage to his populist whims. It is upto the Congress how it shows reason and with a bipartisan push calls Trump's bluff and ends the budget impasse.
5
@Prof. Jai Prakash Sharma I think Congress could override President Trump's veto and open the government without building the wall. What is the will of most of the American people? I'm certainly not in favor of it. I'm especially not in favor of this standoff we have now with a refugee settlement in Mexico just beyond the border. Why aren't these people being processed one way or another? Incidentally, I'd far rather have a brown Mexican, Central American, or below neighbor than a white supremacist neighbor.
2
How about combination of a physical wall and a virtual wall? There are places where high tech surveillance and stepped up enforcement will be more effective. It would simply be more of what we're doing already.
We already have a physical wall in many of the places where we need one. OK, we could add to it a bit, and up our game on the virtual wall as well. Everyone would save face, and the government could get funded.
That sounds too easy, as if I'm missing something. Or maybe all the gamesmanship in Washington will lead to that conclusion, once the political posturing is done.
4
@mlbex, how about bringing all those surveillance drones back from across the oceans and fly them along the security border here, the pilots can stay right where they are in Nevada. Switch out the Hellcat missiles with water bottles.
The bottom line is most Americans want border security. Part of that solution is fence/wall, part high tech, part enforcement. The Democrats have supported all of this in the past. To now oppose border security over semantics and general opposition to Trump leaves America at risk. The Democrats have offered no solution, just rhetoric. That leaves America vulnerable, allowing drugs, human trafficking and a humanitarian crisis building at our border. You may not like the term wall, but they clearly work and are needed in urban areas. Democrats, stop the obstruction, approve comprehensive border plan and get on with it.
23
@Mark V
Trump has majorities in both houses until after the first of the year.
54
@Mark V Drugs don't all originate in other countries. Human trafficking is present right here. The humanitarian crisis at the border is caused by the very people who want that (Mexican funded) wall, which, incidentally, would never be impenetrable. Real border security is far more complex than the "base" mentality can comprehend.
29
And I expect the budget for the wall is contingent on an accepted plan and not just a noun: the wall.
I have not heard or seen any plan for the wall.
15
Why is it that Democrats have to somehow keep meeting Trump half way when he continues to move the goal posts? Last year, they had a deal on immigration. Dems were willing to give him like $20 billion in exchange for the Dreamers, expanded visa programs and a few other fixes desperately needed in our immigration system.
Then he talked to Stephen Miller and the next meeting decided he didn't want to compromise, just get everything he wanted. The deal fell apart. Everyone thought there was a deal last week until Trump watched Fox News and backed out.
Trump's idea of a "deal" is that he gets everything he wants. That's never going to happen. If the congressional GOP had any courage, they'd cut a deal with the Democrats. Give some money for border security in exchange for protection of the dreamers and ending child detention policy. That ought to garner enough votes for a veto proof majority. Cut Trump out of the process and just move forward. But yet again, the GOP cares more about appeasing Trump than doing their jobs.
255
We don't want or need expanded visa programs like the badly abused H1b, L1 and B1 visas. From what I can tell Democrats and Republicans have been richly rewarded by PACs funded by heavy users of these harmful visas and refuse to listen to their constituents.
3
@Margo
Remember corporations are people and can give to PACs and lobby their Congressman. That is how our system works.
5
@Matt
Most politicians read the tea leaves of where their constituents are at, and act accordingly (not exactly profiles in courage). Also, the mainstream media has not done a particularly effective job of laying out the flaws of simply throwing money at building a wall, as opposed to the myriad of other more comprehensive solutions. I believe this to be mainly because they are afraid of being accused of "bias" by the right wing media, and thus alienating certain coveted demographics. It is also (I suspect) because higher ratings can be achieved by having the two sides (perpetually) shout at one another, while not focusing on a more nuanced fact based analysis (aka JOURNALISM).
2
A wall is a simple, easy-to-grasp solution for an extremely complex problem, and President Trump and his supporters have become irrationally fixated on it. The real issue is not "building a wall" but "border security." By reframing the issue as border security, the question then becomes what are the best methods to obtain that, given the changing and different geography along our southern border, the fact that the border cuts through much private property, and that there are ecological/wildlife problems to consider.
Perhaps a wall would work if it's 750 feet high and 500 feet deep. Or a smaller wall if it's manned every few hundred yards by armed guards 24/7, like the Berlin Wall. Or perhaps we can do a mined no-mans-zone like the border between the Koreas. Other than that, people will find a way to go over a wall, under it, or even through it, as they have for thousands of years. If President Trump knew as much about world history as your average high school student, he would know this.
President Trump is simply selling a product. And like all advertising, people think, "If I can just have THAT, all my problems will be solved." But, like everything with this President, it's a lie. It's highly unlikely we'll build a wall along the complete border, but if we do, there's simply no way it would solve our border security problems.
205
@jrinsc "If I can just have THAT, all my problems will be solved." Perchance Mr Tump has sold himself the wall. There will be no reasoning him out of this, as reasoning is not part of his thought process.
8
@jrinsc
Trump is mainly selling a symbol, and not a rational policy position. The wall has always been more symbolic gesture, than practical solution. The symbolism of erecting of a barrier between Trump's supporters and everything that they fear (both real and imagined). It represents an attempt to ardently resist the kind of change (demographic and otherwise) that his supporters most fear. Of course, their greatest fear is that they (and their offspring) will somehow lose their privileged place in American society, and that they will be left behind in a country they believe to be rightfully theirs (and theirs alone). That they will be replaced by someone "other", something alien, and therefore frightening.
The ultimate irony is that these same people are willing to support those who are willing sell out their beloved country to the highest bidder (even if to a foreign government), in return for tough rhetoric and (mainly) symbolic gestures.
Trump's is a cult of belligerence. A cult of "my country right or wrong". A cult of cut off nose to spite face. A cult of projection. And those who project have HUGE blind spots.
8
@jrinsc
Ronald Reagan said Mr.Gorbatschev tear down this wall
(Berlin)In Europe we do not build walls even as millions
of refugees come to us, caused by the many wars the US
started just to overthrow foreign goverments.Historically
a wall was never a solution.But not only the wall is a problem.Everybody who visits the US is treated like a criminal with fingerprints a.s.o.and many of the immigration officers have a mean and rude behaviour even against the elite
and think they are the law or above the law
America is loosing billions of tourism business( and it will be worse in the coming years) and
the representatives and senators do nothing to
stop it-. We loved America but if that continues
it will not be America first it will be America alone
we are very sad to see how America changes and how
values are thrown overboard
5
I think not enough is said about the physical practicality of a wall given that cartels have developed tunneling capability. Israelis have a difficult time shutting down tunnels along a border in the Sinai that is minuscule compared to the U.S. border.
21
@Charles
Thank you, the complete absurdity of the wall's effectiveness needs to be highlighted over and over again.
2
Trump and his supporters are imagining a wall similar those found in science fiction movies like Divergent, not a series of steel slats that wouldn't hinder Wile E. Coyote wielding a blowtorch. It's the same magical thinking Trump evoked when he promised Mexico would pay for the border wall. We already spend billions on border security, and for two years the GOP House chose to prioritize a 1.1 trillion tax cut that benefited multi-millionaires and corporations over building Trump's wall. These facts alone emphasize the fecklessness of this government shutdown. Advocates of the wall act as if a new physical barrier (one that includes 47 ports of entry) will solve all problems. To them, the wall is purely apotropaic. In 2018 we need to invest tax dollars in reality-based solutions, not waste billions on magical architecture.
20
@JoAnn Absolutely right - and a perfect exemplar of a Trumpian world in which fantasy trumps fact. (And thank you for using the word "apotropaic" - perfect, perfect.)
1
Privet hedge - a REAL privet hedge, my compromise, take it or leave it.
11
Be a lot cheaper to lay it flat and Republicans could call it a wall while Democrats could call it a welcome mat.
3
Nah...we’d call it, lessee, “Mike Pence.”
As everyone in their right mind has said before, this is nothing more than Trump mindlessly and stubbornly playing to his pre-election rally promises instead of working toward smart solutions to the border. He is a child. But then I read this equally typical arrogant remark from Nancy Pelosi we grew accustomed to when Harry Reid was still around and the democrats don't shine very well for me either. "...he’s already backed off of the cement. Now he’s down to, I think, a beaded curtain or something."
3
Whatever the definition of "wall" is, it has to be something that makes President Trump look "tough," just as he has been with presidents Recep Erdogan and Vladimir Putin. Strategically savvy, too, assured by Erdogan that Turkey will defeat an ISIS that Trumo had already been defeated by the United States.
1
Meanwhile, as Cooper Quintin notes elsewhere in today’s Times, our national and international telecommunications networks are supremely succeptible to hacking, deflection and other criminal manipulation while this ignoramus of a president single-mindedly pursues a “4th-century solution to a 20th-century problem”. This magnitude of lunacy is staggering.
48
@GARY nyc
Amen, and the Dems need to remind the American people that Dinosaur Don is stuck in the dark ages.
He's still in awe and marveling about the invention of "wheel".
1
all it takes is Ryan and McConnell to allow a vote for a clean bipartisan bill with no wall. trump's veto would be overridden.
13
Totally agree !!
@Howard64
Why would they do that?
Don’t give in Democrats. No more border security. Spend instead on programs to help those in the US illegally pay for necessities and to help them find jobs.
5
All that any wall would do is create demand for even taller ladders. This is a silly proposal from a silly president who thinks he’s the second coming of Socrates (if he even knows of Socrates to begin with).
18
The thinking here is that Trump must be treated like an addled nursing home resident ("It's mint ice cream, not peas, grandpa!") or a petulant toddler: "If you pick up your little toys, I'll give you a bigger toy!" All I know is that while Trump wants to build his stupid wall, it's getting harder to find a functioning escalator at Grand Central Terminal in New York.
11
I’m for a wall if it’s built around ignorant, bigoted Trump and his corrupt family.
And it can’t be high enough for me.
31
So stupid on both sides. All agree we need appropriate border security. Elected officials: Just take the NYT southern border map they published a few days ago and determine what rigor of security is needed in the different locations, plan, fund, execute and repeat. Planning would determine relative social and financial ROI, debate would be required. Someone must have done this already. Dust it off, get it on the table and shove this "wall or no-wall" discussion into the rubbish bin, where it belongs.
No wall. Period. If Dems cave to this tyrant and his racist demands, our democracy is doomed.
18
Never negotiate with a terrorist because it encourages more terrorism.
Never negotiate with a con man because it encourages more thievery.
19
I hope hell freezes over before Mega-mouth Trump gets his money.
12
Yes, now that the idiot in chief has painted himself into a corner by committing himself to a wall (to cater to his racist/xenophobic base), we have to rescue him by giving him a virtual or figurative wall so he can claim to have won. After all, that is all that matters to this narcissist.
7
Whatever compromise the parties come up with, God orbid it should disrupt the butterly and nature reserves on the border.
2
@EKB You’re right! The environmental impact of the wall alone is horrible. We need to build bridges to our neighbors and not walls.
The president’s obsession with his silly wall that “Mexico will pay for” is so tired. He wants everyone to believe that it’s a matter of national security that we need to keep America white (like it wasn’t overwhelmingly already) and poor brown refugees out.
Hey, Mr. Macho Man, you want security? Stop talking on an unsecured cellphone and stop with the grinning selfies at military outposts that identify members of SEAL teams or other “black ops” personnel.
And quit “governing” to your 35%; how about being a “president” for a change; you know, a real one?
18
This man is an absolute idiot. How do people not see this?
He's not "a social media genius" (as if there could be such a thing); he's not "smart in certain ways," or "smart politically," or "smart in building support in his base," or any of the other ways I have heard people say he is in some limited way intelligent.
He is lower than average intelligence, he is impulsive and bitter and incompetent and yes, unpatriotic.
I guess I'm not that smart either, as I simply cannot figure out why anyone thinks this man has any admirable quality whatsoever.
42
I like what Nancy Pelosi called it - "a beaded curtain."
8
Go on, Donny, you're supposed to make Mexico pay for your wall. How many times did you state that? Or are you a liar?
8
Oh come on.
That is how it will turn out: The new definition of a "wall" - the same wall Trump is talking about for years and clearly meaning a physical, massive concrete wall - will be stripped down to a fence (which already exists) and then Trump will sell it as a major victory. And his Lemmings will celebrate it like the confederate flag.
The bad thing is, only by reporting about this circus, the media is - again - culprit of this stupid president. NYT and others really have to begin to say it how it is: "Our president is mentally ill.", "Our president only supports himself and nobody else." "Our president is destroying democracy and flushes the reputation of the USA down the drain". Every day this should be the headlines. Do not normalize this con man.
5
There is only one thing that must ever be said to Trump about this idiotic wall fantasy of his. You said
Oh. The irony.
Rs EXCEL at re-definition (recall Reagan defining ketchup as a vegetable for poor kids' school lunch programs)
Examples abound in the alternative fact world of Trumpland, and include:
- certain significant waters are not really 'waters of the USA" anymore, for purposes of Clean Water Act requirements;
- mass shootings are not defined as a public health threats, for purposes of addressing and regulating public health (so much for a "well regulated militia" what ever happened to that definition anyway?)
- airborne pollutants are not defined as precursors to cancers and asthma (science be damned!), for purpose of enforcing the Clean Air Act.
- certain sacred, untouched land is not defined as "public" anymore, unless the definition of "public land" can be re-defined to provide for private sector drilling, habitat destruction etc.
The list goes on and on.
So why are they stuck on the definition of "wall" ?
Maybe just go to the dictionary? wher one of the ver batim definitions is:
" an extreme of desperate position, [as in] defeat or ruin."
Does that help ?
5
"Now he’s down to, I think, a beaded curtain or something. I’m not sure where he is.”
-Nancy Pelosi
I could not stop laughing.
Beware Trump, Nancy will make sure that the public will continue to see you as the fool you are, all bombast, and no substance.
27
Actually, this government needs shutdown and the joke punchline is '...because it feels so good when I stop!'.
@A. Reader
This is no shutdown.
It's a paid vacation for furloughed federal workers.
The Senate has already approved that every one of the affected federal workers will get full back pay upon their return...even those furloughed!
It's just an another dodge and deflect political Trump stunt with the American taxpayers footing the bill.
What a joke. A monumental waste of time and money.
2
What we really need is infrastructure-fill some potholes! Revive FDR's conservation corps and get everybody who is able-bodied to work. It will have so many ripple effects- perhaps the best one that we could feel good about our country and save it from the neglect it's suffered by these fools talking about one thing only.
America is far from 'great' and hasn't been for sometime. Remember when we had innovation and verve? This president always knew how to waste money that isn't his and he's done so with the Federal Budget. And he doesn't have to care- he never has before. Old dog-really old tricks! Wake up please...
4
There really is no way to deal with trump than to take the high road and let America catch up. Don’t try to wrestle with him in the mud democrats!
4
Heeding the advice of rightwing fanatics over the will of most of the American people is beyond my comprehension!
3
Democrats, the President owns this shutdown; it is completely on him. Do not cave in. The public does not support wasting our money on a boondoggle. We need to be spending tax dollars on building and fixing bridges and roads in the U.S. (and not selling off our infrastructure to private companies which will tax us directly with tolls - but that is beyond our topic here). Don't vote to give money for that stupid border wall/fence/whatever you want to call it.
10
If Democrats cave and fund the wall they will validate Trump's paranoid racist fantasy, making it bipartisan. They will validate cruelty and ignorance. Trump will crow forevermore, "See? Even the Democrats agreed we need wall! I was right!" and use that as leverage for every other insane proposal, threatening shutdowns at every opportunity. Say No. Stand up for facts, and for humanity. Not one penny for this bigoted stunt.
6
There are no walls that I know of which are inherently racist. Border security should not be about race issues.
1
On principle alone, excluding all reasonable arguments that point to better use of our tax dollars, the wall is to reference a childhood story, the thorn in the lion's foot.
Frankly, I am amused that Coulter, Limbaugh, and company are so stuck on egging Donald about the wall. It is like they are just seeing how deep into Trump's head they can get. So as the government shutdown is most certainly on Trump's shoulders and most certainly Republicans (as they control the White House, Senate, and House), these idiot purveyors of their own importance, challenge the President on the air to a schoolyard standoff, knowing full well he will shove back.
Of course the fault lies with Trump because he won't let himself be out-bullied. Remember grade school fights? The bully wasn't always the aggressor. Rather the bullies where those that were shoving the aggressor into fighting, challenging their manhood, their status, their pride. That is what the entire FOX and friends family is doing to Trump. Pushing him into the fight, challenging him into not backing down, and frankly being oh so grade-school.
If there is ever to be peace in Trump's administration regarding the wall, it will only come when Coulter, Limbaugh and Fox back off there bullying of Trump. Sadly, our commander in chief listens to the rantings of those that shove the school-yard bully into the fight.
3
I don’t care what they call it as long as it’s tall enough to prevent easy crossings.
Enough is enough. Here in NYC we have 1.2 MILLION illegals out of a population of 8M. And liberals wonder why lower skill Americans in NY can’t get a living wage as a waiter, cook, construction worker or domestic helper. It’s not rocket science folks. It’s called supply and demand. And we have a massive illegal oversupply in low skill labor.
5
Echo of Clinton: "Depends on what is is."
And Trumpspeak: "Alternative facts."
I can't wait for Trump's head to explode when he doesn't get his wall.
4
How about " Invisible Fences " ? You know, the thing that stupid and cruel people use with Dogs, complete with shock collars. Of course, the problem would be getting " millions in Caravans " to wear them. But surely the Stable Genius could find a solution. Right ???
2
@Phyliss Dalmatian, let’s put thousands of empty shopping carts on the other side of the border for migrants to carry their stuff in, only the kind whose wheels lock up when they pass through an electrical barrier like at a supermarket’s parking lot. Then they have to stop and register. This wall is taking on spectacular proportions, like our new race to the moon.
1
Walls are for a fearful, cowardice, people. Is that really want American citizens want to be remembered for? Didn’t work well for Stalin and the East German Communists.
4
Yes, thank God. One thing politicians are very good at is; distorting, bending, spinning statements, definitions, policies. Or in brief, using 'weasel words'.
'The Wall' will go through a number of iterations and permutations to finally become something both sides can agree to without losing face.
Democrats playing euphemism games, like "man-made disaster" for terrorism or "what is a wall?" But, of course, they have been playing that game since prenatal killing was called a "choice."
Has it really reached this level of insanity?
These people are decoupled from reality.
We have 40 million fellow citizens who go to bed hungry every night.
This is sheer madness!
4
This demand for a wall is beyond ludicrous. Enough with humoring a crazy man, and his ignorant followers. What are we? East Germany? Did David Duke get elected masquerading as Donald Trump? Or is Donald Trump Scrooge McDuck in need of a visit from the Ghost of Shutdowns Yet to Come?
2
Debate about what is a wall is pointless and stupid. The debate should be about what is an effective use of taxpayer dollars to solve a problem. If a wall is not the right way to address this, we should not spend a dollar on it.
3
If illegal immigration is the big deal that Trump and the Republicans make it out to be, why don't we just take their kids away and hold them in cages? Oh, wait.
2
Here's what's really stupid about the whole wall thing -Schumer et.al. agree each year to fund Israel to the tune of billions of dollars. Guess what they do with some of that money? Build walls! But for our own country, that's a problem. Israel has an existential threat from some of their neighbors so they need security. I'm pretty sure we have some enemies as well, not to mention gangs, drugs and other really bad vices. So what's the deal?
4
Just more Trump equivocation.
Trump clearly wants a physical structure on which to put his disgusting name in huge obnoxious letters as if America is one of his poorly designed hotels. The thought of using technology for security is too abstract for his ignorant mind. Not to mention his original demand, a moat and a series of drawbridges, was quashed by Stephen Miller.
3
I really hope the Dems don't cave in on this one. What a stupid waste of taxpayer dollars. Funny thing is the rich and the corporations don't have to pay taxes for this kind of thing. It's we, the working poor, the rapidly disappearing middle class who pay the taxes and get nothing in return.
Let's dispel the notion that these wannabe immigrants are drug cartel members and other bad boys. These are moms and dads trying to make a better life for their families and willing to clean toilets and scrub floors in our hotels, work in the our buildings at night as janitors, trim your bushes in the blazing sun day in and day out and do all the jobs that our lazy native-born citizens disdain.
Next time you see one of these people of color doing one of these types of jobs, stop and see them as "people," not automatons that make your life easier. Maybe ask them their story. Would be nice if the Times ran a series of articles on these folks. They have hopes and dreams for their children, just like you do. Donald and Melania should maybe actually talk to one of them sitting at/on the "wall" when they head down there for their "get tough on immigration" photo op.
Stand up for what's right, Dems!
3
Mrs Pelosi thinks that a wall is made of "cement"? Another example of how out of touch with everyday life the liberal elite are. For the urban, liberal, elite New York Times readers, a solid wall would be made of concrete.
2
he once bragged Mexico would pay for.
once? he bragged at every rally! this is what rankles me...... rewarding a LIAR! let him complete his promise of a "big beautiful" wall by procuring funding from mexico BEFORE building the wall.
6
That photo of illegals sitting on top of the "fence" says it all. We need enhanced border security now. Build The Wall Now.
20
@Brewster Millions You know that picture is showing that a wall is pointless. That fence they are sitting on is the equivalent of the steel slat design Trump is talking about. The only wall that would work would have to be something similar to what Israel uses to keep Palestinians out, a solid massive concrete barrier complete with guard posts and razor wire. That wall would have to extend across the entire US-Mexico border, along rivers and rocky mountains. That is a massive undertaking and cost on infrastructure while we have bridges and roads aging. Spending money on surveillance technology, vehicles, and personnel hiring and training will do more than any wall can. We could use that money on other federal agencies that do more to build up and protect our country. This is Amerticans' money, your money. Why spend it on a wall that will do nothing for you. Besides, do we really want that image as a country to look like America is inside a federal prison or a warzone?
24
@Brewster Millions--Why? So some other migrants can sit on top of the new one? (And, by the way, the people sitting on top of the fence in the photo aren't "illegals." They have not crossed the border yet and they may not.)
9
@Brewster Millions Really? It kind of suggests that a wall doesn't work.
16
Democrats have no reason to negotiate. This infamous wall could not get passed by this Republican President and a republican controlled senate and house. Trumps own party didn't make good on this for the last two years. He will now be known as the President of shut downs. He is an embarrassment.
148
@KAL
The Republicans made a deal tactical mistake when they didn't accept the earlier $25 billion DACA deal for dreamers. But if he overplayed it Schumer might come out as the bad guy. The requested $5 b is less than 1/4% of the Federal Budget. Trump will settle for $2.5 b and get other money elsewhere. He's talking about the start of 115 miles in Texas that he's going to see next week?
The experts:DHS, BC, ICE and all local law enforcement agencies not only support it but strongly recommend "1,100 miles in about 30 Sections."
I agree with the experts.
I'm not sure why any media outlet or Democratic politician doesn't remind people every time that this issue is discussed, that Trump said time and time again that Mexico would pay for the wall. He can have his wall if Mexico pays for it. Discussion over. The failure to keep this point at the forefront of all debates on this issue is an unforced error on the part of the Democrats.
28
Isn't Fox News going to determine what's needed? Don't they say when this is over? Do they prefer this part of the government just disappear.
4
I remember all those MAGA-hatted rallygoers screaming "Mexico" when when Trump prompted: "And who will pay for the wall?" Will they now be screaming "Us" when he tells them it will be American taxpayers after all?
11
Nope. Ending the budget impasse depends on crushing Trump. Only way to win. Else ... he wins. And we lose.
3
Trump himself said that a wall in this case means a cement wall, and American tax-payers should not have to put up a penny to have it built. Congress should not even be part of this discussion -- Trump can sign government back into action and then he can go negotiate with Mexico.
And if he wants to make himself popular then Trump can also sign DACA back into existence.
3
I am completely embarrassed that we are considering building a wall. If it is done, staffing jt with border security agents will cost much more than building it.
3
Sounds similar to the question of how you interpret "Mexico will pay for the wall." To Trump, "Mexico" means the US taxpayers, and to anyone else, "Mexico" means Mexico.
3
This is more a matter of semantics. For years I tried to find all kinds of ways to keep the living creatures from under my house from finding their way into the kitchen trash. One day someone told me I had mice and that Home Depot had a whole aisle full of deterrents that were so easy to use. Doh!
1
@John Doe, my preferred deterrent, however, was realizing they mostly all came from the woodpile behind the garage and make sure the squirrel feeder back there is always full. The stubborn ones had their chance.
Nancy needs to pass a veto proof budget on 1/3/2019
How many people are we talking about, per year, crossing the border? We need to spend 5 billion plus what we already spend to solve this problem? Isn't cancer a bigger problem? How many children will die and families destroyed so we can protect, what?
Mr. Trump appears to have no concept of triage.
1
Democrats should be in unison, repeating over and over again, what Trump said during the Presidential campaign: Mexico will pay for the wall. He didn’t say ‘after the fact’.
Tell him he’ll get his wall as soon as Mexico sends the cheque.
4
Whatever it is that Pinocchio pretends to be searching for, it already exists along the border and is probably working about as well as anything can to accomplish something impossible. Of course all he really wants is attention, discord and talking points with Coulter and Limbaugh. Sad to say he will never be a "real" boy.
1
Look, the man is facing setback after setback. He lost the Mid Term elections, he's sunk the Markets almost on his own, his Army mobilization ruse was not appreciated, Mueller is breathing hard down his neck and very soon he will be investigated by Congress too. The possibility that he will end up penny less and in prison is more than 50/50, so the need to feed his 38 % a good piece of red meat is a must.
he knows better than anyone except Mueller perhaps what he's done, so the fear, now panic are real and understandable. I assume at a certain point Capone and Gotti had similar sensations.
2
@Leon
Dow closed at 18,332 on 11/8/16 and closed 12/26/18 at 22,878. So, since his election the Dow has risen 4500 points. I will accept a 25% increase in my investments every 2 years.
It's time to face down this bully, with a new Congress a week away.
This is Trump's Waterloo.
3
Brilliant! The idea came to me while reading this article.
Fake legislation!
Put a piece of paper in front of Trump which looks like it authorizes his border wall (like the contract for the 115 miles), and have him sign it bigly. There, now he has his wall! He'll never ask if the money is appropriated (if he even knows what that means) or if it got built. Everyone can just tell him, 'Yeah it's all taken care of, like North Korea's nuclear threat. Great job, President T!' And then the country can move on...
1
Trump is clearly angling for something— anything— that he can hold up to his base and call a wall, thereby declaring victory. Such concessions allow his base to continue living in their alternate universe when what they sorely need is a firm, unambiguous reality check. So, the time for the “let the baby have his bottle” approach to managing the President, so that the rest of us can get on with our lives, has come to an end.
Hold the line Democrats. Let the consequences for very bad decisions become nakedly apparent.
2
Mr. Trump has repeatedly said that he would unilaterally abrogate treaties, urged the military to ignore the laws of war, and encouraged police officers to push prisoners' heads into vehicle doorframes.
With similar indifference, he might be able to "secure the southern border" by abrogating the Mine Ban Treaty, contracting for mine production in areas largely populated by his base, and directing the military to disperse the newly-produced mines in a 500 meter belt along the border.
1
I think a water system in Flint and new bridges and roads should be called a wall. Mr. Trump is drunk with power, he doesn't need enablers he needs an intervention from all the leaders in Congress and the Pentagon and Wall Street present.
5
trump also promised repeatedly and emphatically that Mexico would pay for the wall. This failure to deliver funding also negates any US funding responsibility for it. The bait and switch tactic is getting worn.
14
A minute ago (about 8:25 AM central time) I googled "arguments against Trump's border wall." A paper by the Cato Institute, hardly a liberal institution, came up and explained why Trump's idea of a wall won't be effective. There is also an August 6, 2018 article from the Times talking about a GAO report detailing problems with a "wall."
GREAT talking points for Democrats.
This shutdown due to failure to fund the wall is a wasted exercise. Trump promised during the campaign that he would make Mexico pay for the wall. He should put his money where his mouth is and make Mexico pay for his wall and not ask Congress for the money.
9
So no wall at all then? Who do you think funded those think-tank articles and do you think they're unbiased?
Only in Washington would anyone argue about the definition of the word wall. A wall is a wall. It is meant to keep things separated, whether the things are furniture or people. To keep people out, the wall needs to be high as well as deep into the ground below. Illegal immigrants and drugs are entering the U.S. along our entire southern border. Build the wall. Stop illegal immigration. End chain migration. Protect the sovereignty of the United States. And stop pandering to people who use America as a cash cow for money sent back to Mexico instead of being spent and invested in the country that actually provides them with a living.
4
@paul How do you feel about large coporations such as Apple and Nike which send their cash offshore?
In my mind I can't fault the little guy who works hard to support a family, especially when we allow corporate behemoths to use tax laws to their advantage.
1
@paul How do you feel about large coporations such as Apple and Nike which send their cash offshore? These guys aren't exactly bringing their cash back in ways that benefit the average American worker after the change in tax laws. .https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiv9MnTqsDfAhWFg-AKHXrYAtEQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.marketwatch.com%2Fstory%2Fyes-corporations-have-brought-home-cash-after-the-tax-cut-but-they-havent-put-it-to-work-2018-06-29&psig=AOvVaw0mNh4Uq7Wqg3XiquCPzBII&ust=1546011198224487
In my mind I can't fault the little guy who works hard to support a family, especially when we allow corporate behemoths to use tax laws to their advantage.
Before we spend another cent on any physical barrier there should be a condition that the Congress must pass a workable immigration policy and resolve the DACA issue.
Once they have agreed on a viable policy, funds could then be allocated for implementation.
Congress and President......think out of the box you have put yourselves in!
4
Border security FIRST. We know very well what happened with the Reagan amnesty; not wanting that to happen again.
Stop the flow then deal with the mess.
2
A Wall is a Wall is a Wall. There will be no Wall, nor was there ever going to be one. The real issue here is how we allowed Vladimir Putin to effectively elect, or install, Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh as the co-presidents of the United States, dictating not just our silly optics but also internal policy. Putin has managed to do what Stalin and Kruschev couldn’t-to bury us.
8
It's time for Congress to curb this president with extreme prejudice. They can all go back to fluffing up their bases and avoiding a primary fight after two important votes. First vote, pass the CR that got unanimous in the Senate through both houses and send it to the Resolute Desk for "the Pen" to veto. Second vote, override that veto. Send a note with the override, "We need a rational partner in the Executive Branch, work on it or expect more of these".
9
How about a nice row of shrubberies?
Tastefully done, of course.
3
@John Doe, like a 2000 mile long communal peace garden. Now you’re talking. They can reteach us all the innate agrarian skills we all here lost to technology.
1
With apologies to the coiner, it's almost always "daffynitions" that call the tune, in politics, law, life. And almost always, not so funny.
Re-brand the Border Wall as a Geo-Fence using big beautiful American technology. Make governing great again.
2
Not normally a Pelosi fan but this is a fantastic takedown of our fickle president: “He says, ‘We’re going to build a wall with cement, and Mexico’s going to pay for it’ while he’s already backed off of the cement. Now he’s down to, I think, a beaded curtain or something. I’m not sure where he is.”
5
@Boris Job It is indeed a fabulous takedown. Unfortunately, it is also an indictment of our current political system which craves winners and losers.
I would much rather elect pragmatists who will work together to find solutions to difficult problems rather than tweeting pithy put downs
1
Any real need we have for a wall is directly proportional to our failure as a nation to construct successful policy regarding immigration, guest worker, and seasonal worker rules that honor all humans.
To claim we cannot have 100% effective, successful policy is an admission of national ineptitude.
10
20 years ago we were debating 'what the definition if is, is?' and now we're at debating 'what the definition of wall, is?'
1
If they give in to Trump's whim on this one I'm done with the lot of them. Though I do like the beaded curtain idea.
6
Think of all the Republican men who are afraid of the ire of Donald Trump. Nancy Pelosi is not a bit intimidated by his bluster. There is nothing more threatening to him than a powerful, self-assured, articulate woman. You go, girl!
11
I'll go with the " beaded curtain ". Add some cheap incense, Pot fumes and
Ridiculous clothes, and we're back to the Seventies. Good times.
2
And hang out in San Francisco with the huge number of homeless people and illegal immigrants - what could go wrong?
Isn’t it interesting that the overwhelming number of pro wall supporters live nowhere near the border?
9
Don't actually build a wall, but tell him its an invisible electric fence. He will believe it and try to sell it as winning!
3
Walls work: there's a mighty one between Trump's lying mind and observable reality.
5
Yes we need border security but a wall is not the answer. If that were the case then we would also have to build a wall to our north.
The only reason Trump wants a wall to the south is because of his dislike for Latinos and he could say that's a lie but his actions say something else.
We need a working government and president, if we're lucky we'll get one of them back.
2
The vast majority of Americans do not want a wall, and anyone who votes to spend our hard earned money on such a ridiculous thing to placate the tantrum of a man-toddler will be met with real opposition the next time they try to run for office.
6
@Kristen
Vast majority may be a bit of an overstatement. Of course, polls in general are not that trustworthy in my opinion.
"The poll found 43 percent do support the wall, but 54 percent oppose it and say it won’t help secure the southern boundary."
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/18/support-trump-border-wall-sets-record-though-still/
Nancy Pelosi, “He says, ‘We’re going to build a wall with cement, and Mexico’s going to pay for it’ while he’s already backed off of the cement. Now he’s down to, I think, a beaded curtain or something. I’m not sure where he is.”
Thank you Nancy Pelosi for the first hearty laugh of the day. What a gal!
Trump will make one of his "inscrutable statements" about what he will be allowed to build and declare victory. His base will cheer until Ann Coulter has her say after which he will make another inscrutable statement negating the one before, and business as usual will prevail until such time as the American people, including Republicans one hopes, have had enough of this nonsense.
1
The wall would be an ugly monument to Trump's fear.
A repudiation of the Statue of Liberty.
No Wall!
2
So if we call it something else it's not a wall, right (wink). Bottom line ... The President campaigned on "Mexico will pay for the wall." How many time did we have to listen and watch it? After we receive the check from Mexico, then we should build it. This is not Trump real estate (smoke & mirrors).
2
The only wall needed is a wall around the Duck. And that is what this is really all about.
1
A wall?? In the 21st century? Is this to be a memento of the Berlin Wall, or an index of American regression into boorish, anti-global hostility?
I hope the Democrats do not cave on this matter.
Most importantly, Trump said MEXICO WOULD PAY FOR THE WALL. So, he needs to get it from them, in accordance with his 'campaign of hate promises.'
Trump should not be allowed to give tax breaks to the wealthiest, then force other Americans to pay taxes for his Wall, his monument of hatred of immigrants.
4
So, let Mr. T have a couple of Billion for a stone & cement wall with the specifications of no higher than 1 meter and must be 1 meter wide ... a simple structure defining our boarder with Mexico. This might let us get on with the business of America. DJM
This is just a fantasy. Trump hand waves, "rapists, murderers, crime, caravans are coming in". Overwhelmingly most crime is committed by U.S. citizens. He and his administration has provided no "cost-benefit" analysis for a $5B investment. What do we get for that. The "Mexico" will pay for it, is conveniently forgotten when he brings it up. I hear some hand waving about taxing remittances, jigging the new NAFTA treaty, but it's all blowhard. He has held up Government funding, taking the whole country hostage over this issue, which is 0.1% of the total budget. He is a public, crying child angry over not getting his $5B candy fix. There's no way he can anything significant done in the next two years on the wall, even with $5B. He hasn't even spent much of the first $1.7B in the 2017 budget. The eminent domain issues are daunting. Environmental impact is too. A wall 1300+ miles long will require access roads in many places, buying up land, creating construction centers all along the border. You can count on it being in court for years. The inaccessible places are going to be really challenging. Imagine helicopters flying in supplies. If he wants a wall, then we really need a public study of what it takes. We could do the study for 10's of millions. Involve the big architectural and engineering firms.
There are 3 questions at issue here: Are we in danger due to massive illegal crossings at the border? Will a barrier wall stop these illegal crossings? Are the Republicans in congress willing to rein in Trump's worst instincts?
The answer to all 3 is a resounding NO. Illegal border crossings are down, and the vast majority of people making such crossings are either political or economic refugees. Although everyone agrees that a comprehensive immigration policy must include border security measures, no one believes that a physical barrier, by itself, is a solution. And, thus far, Republicans have shown no willingness to control Trump as he rampages through domestic and foreign policy with little regard for anything but his selfish interests.
The incoming Democratic house majority must absolutely deny this funding for a wall. Not because it's a waste of money --- which it is --- and not because it will not accomplish true border security --- which it will not --- but because Donald Trump must be shown, in hard, deliberate action, that he is not the Emperor of The United States, free to demand any nonsensical, whimsical thing his heart desires at the moment, unanswerable to anyone, free to impose his petulant will regardless of who is hurt or what is destroyed.
There is not one good reason to fund and build this wall. There is a very good reason, political though it may be, to deny Donald Trump what he wants.
125
@Jim Are the Republicans in congress willing to rein in Trump's worst instincts?
They should start reining in his best instincts as even they are bad.
4
@Jim
If Trump were serious about security for the citizens, he would address the issues that truly make us insecure: disease, the NRA, pollution, etc. Immigration is his go-to only because he hates poor people, especially foreigners.
4
@Jim
Another, its our money. The majority of us don't want it spent this way. Keep your mitts off it.
3
My condolences to the thousands of federal workers' families who are without paychecks to pay for life's necessities. This power play by POTUS shows such total disrespect for those who make our life safe and come to our aid in times of need. These federal employees do their jobs in the utter chaos of Washington, never knowing what opportunist will be guiding the decisions of their workplace the next day.
68
Trump has slowly been becoming more flexible on what a wall is. On the Christmas press conference he called it "a wall, a fence, or whatever they want to call it", showing that he is open for interpretation. But who knows what to expect tomorrow as he bends more to his base and the whims of FOX news pundits. Whatever the wall is, he wants it on the entire 2000 mile border, and thinks it's more important than having a functional government. It's holding the government for ransom.
7
It all "depends on the definition"? This is pure Trump folderol. As he disrupts the holidays for thousands of people, we're playing semantic games with words like fence, barrier, obstacle, etc. Yesterday, he visited the troops and made that a political event, whining about the democrats and his wall. Let's put Trump and the wall behind us and move back into the 21st century. We need to tackle real problems, like the climate, the environment and mending fractured relationships with our allies.
13
I'll go with Bennet on this issue. Trump really has no interest in the wall. He needs issues to divide and conquer which, so far, he's done a remarkably good job of doing.
The sad thing is that "the wall," as both a symbol and now a red hot political issue the world watches us deal with, gives the lie to everything America ever stood for. Whatever happened to Emma Lazarus's poem about the tired, the poor, etc. yearning to be free?
Does anyone believe the Russians and Chinese aren't making full use of this contradiction between what we say and what we do?
9
Build bridges, not walls. Walls are not solutions to problems, they make the problem worst. Those who believe, if we put the problem on the other side of a wall, we won’t have to deal with it are probably the same people who thought, Trump would evolve once he was President. Walled countries, communities and walled cities are not a solution to poverty, wealth inequality, homelessness and hunger. Eventually the people behind the wall are outnumbered by the people on the other side and ultimately, for reasons of survival, the wall is breached and the people behind the wall are devoured. History is littered with the rubble of walls and the bones of the people who built them. There is no wall standing today, that has worked. We need to evolve and seek a better solution.
3
History is littered with societies which perished, too. There is nothing wrong with wanting a cultural identity and orderly society in your homeland.
Homogenize your milk, not your country.
So why are the Democrats willing to negotiate with Trump to build a wall? His campaign promise to the voters was to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it. Tell him we do not have a problem with that promise. Please let us know when Mexico supplies the funds and let us review your plans when available.
3
I have a feeling that Trump, at some point, is going to declare that he got his "Wall" even if it's not finally erected. He's already said to his base that what you're seeing is not what's happening, to essentially trust only him when it comes to what is reality. I can envision him saying that he's made good on his campaign promise to build The Wall whatever makeshift, piecemeal barrier finally stands at the border. Trump has always had his own private definition of what constitutes winning.
2
Whatever "they" do so be tied to a comprehensive immigration plan that addresses all issues. This would require compromises on both side and "they" do not ever compromise. I has been my way for so long that I forget the times when compromise was not a bad word.
Well, I appreciate the sentiment but "comprehensive" means a bill filled with goodies for corporate donors these days. It's much better to address this piece by piece until we get Citizens United reversed or killed by proper legislation.
President No-Sense has not a chance of a new wall as the facts are now. Our fearful Congress is unable to define “wall” apparently. If an obstruction to overland crossing is determinable, it will not be at $5 billion a whack. Most likely construction will be piecemeal on a budget of a lot less.
1
Democrats could start the year on a positive note by funding border security with just enough “wall” funding so that Trump can claim success. Call it the “fig leaf” strategy – Dems can take credit among for bipartisanship, while Donny can trumpet his success in staring down the enemy (Dems) Churchill-style. His base will be thrilled, while more rational Americans will see the deal for what it really is.
Trump is happy to live in a fantasy world of his own creation, twisting the narrative to reflect well on himself. Let’s use his capacity for delusion as a way to marginalize and bypass him.
2
$5million for a beaded curtain, no more
1
Congress should absolutely address border security, but they should be allowed to do it properly with research and compromise on legislation that will satisfy both sides of the aisle. The "president" shutting down the government just to get an unrealistic campaign promise is absolute insanity. We have officially reached "madness of King George" levels and it is not good at all. We have balance of powers built into our governing structure for a reason: to prevent anyone from holding the government hostage like Trump is doing right now.
5
"What is a wall?" Trump's wall seems to be a Maginot Line. In other words, an expensive effort that offers a false sense of security.
2
America, we have a problem with a president who wants to spend $5 billion on a Trump Wall (or "artistic" fence or vertical sharp steel slats or call it what you will) to keep Central American migrants out of our southern states. Forget about Mexico paying for his wall, as Trump promised and still brags at his 2020 rallies.
President Trump is right about one thing, that "we need safety for our country". He is wrong about everything else, and his presidency threatens the safety of America, European and Asian, Southern hemisphere allies. Our enemies in Russia, Asia and the Middle East are appeased by Trump's chaotic administration.
Trump promises us that his shutdown of our government will continue until the Democrats allocate the money he needs for his wall. Mr. Trump shouldn't hold his breath waiting for the Democrats (and "Nancy" and "Chuck")) to accede to his bullying demands. When the Democratic majority of new Congressmen and women take over our Legislative branch shortly -- in a few weeks -- Trump's wall will become a figment of the past. Happy New Year!
1
Talking about the wall in this way is like talking about how many angels can sit on the head of a pin. Trump when threatened has always used distraction to take our attention away from what Trump fears most, the impending revelations about his corruption and the threat to himself and his presidency. With the bogus and useless wall leading to the shutdown of so much of the government including the Justice Department furloughs, he has the perfect opportunity to cater to his base, take our attention away from soon to come Mueller report and House hearings. The wall is only a perfect ploy and has nothing to do with our 'security' in any way, only about Trumps security from prosecution.
Debating him about such a useless project only falls into Trump's trap to make the discussion about something other than what is to come. Trump does not care about the wall or government only his own skin, but giving him a bit of what he says he wants may stop this back and forth discussion and we can get on with the real business of getting on with impeaching Trump. A senseless, wasteful wall yes and Trump will crow but change no one's minds. The truth is all that matters here, not our own fears of what Trump will say or common sense which does not matter anyway to anyone but Democrats.. Call his bluff.
2
The photographs in this article are priceless. Its amusing that “national security” used to mean stopping an advancing army or a rogue terrorist group. Today we seek to spend billions to stop determined individuals from coming in to do low wage work by building them up to be buggy men. And the crux of protecting ourselves from the buggy men is a fence. Imagine if the crux of keeping our inmates in jail was an unmanned fence patrolled by a guard once a day. Thanks, Mr. Trump, I feel so much safer.
2
Of all the “walls” and “barriers” that have ever been built, the Supermarket Checkout Divider or SCD, is the most effective. No one dares crosses that line.
SCD is the answer.
4
from my time in the army, I know that physical barriers are a useful and effective component of defense. They are, in fact, irreplaceable for what they do. However, because character matters, we must ensure that Failed 45 continues to fail, so I reject all attèmpts to fund his wall. Once we replace that festering boil of corruption with a human being, we can open the barrier discussion again.
2
Trump acts out only for his base and his base only listens to sound bites and reacts to populist ideas.
"Wall = immigrant problem fixed = USA safer and stronger."
He needs only to be SEEN to be trying to build a wall. Neither he, nor his followers care to acknowledge or discuss the complexity of the real issues involved.
2
Zero compromise. The Con said it himself. He doesn't what it is called as long as it's a wall. If the Democrats agree to this I guess they only confirm Trump will be re-elected.
1
I see no pressing reason for the Democrats to agree to funding or allowing a wall or, in fact, to making any concessions on the broader immigration issues. A lot of this is media driven hype: Will there be a government shutdown? When it shuts down when will it end? Let's relax, take a break and be quiet during this end of the year lull between christmas and New Y ears.
2
Building the wall comes back to the basic question of why a wall or any border security is needed. It's needed because the people that cross it want jobs. If the folks that HIRE the immigrants that cross the border would be imprisoned, there would be no need
2
In one week power will change hands in the House with Dems taking control. All this economic and financial will be over then. Right?
2
"wall" is a nice, simple, one syllable word, easy to understand, familiar. as President Trump uses it, "wall" has nothing to do with a physical barrier or separation: it's an easy sell to his base, something to fight for, something that appeals to fear and prejudice, without subtlety or context. it's not security, folks, it's a slogan, like "44-40 or fight." Trump field tested it, found it worked in his Nuremberg rallies, and will not let go of it. the worst thing for Trump would be to get the funding he demands and put an end to the issue and his subterfuge. it's all about the sizzle, not the steak. a con job, as usual.
3
If Trump knew about or cared about history, he'd know that there's not a wall in the world that will keep out people who want in. Even the Berlin wall, with guard towers and soldiers with rifles ready to kill anyone who attempted to get near it couldn't keep people from trying. Some people are willing to die just for the chance at a better life. Americans should feel proud that our country is so valued and admired, and even in the time of Trump is still seen as a beacon of hope and prosperity. The people who are willing to walk thousands of miles to get here and live in detention centers for years just for a chance that they can stay here do it because America is already great and a person can still come here and make something of themselves. Some of the people who make their way here from far away love this country more than many people who were lucky enough to be born here. Those who will go to such extremes should be helped to achieve their dreams, not treated as enemies and animals.
64
Trump ran on the platform that Mexico would pay for his ego wall. Why isn't he saying that now. He's given away our taxes to his billionaire boy friends and now he wants the middle class to pay for this wall which will not stop immigration . Raises our taxes, is taking our military out of Syria by stashing them in Iraq , will let isis rebuild their army and then send the military to again fight for this war that would never have been started without the Republicans. Turns his back on our allies and the republican congress is so mealymouthed that they cannot utter a word for fear of his
Minority.
10
@Ms. Pea
LOL
We have the statistics on wall crossings. We know for a fact that the Berlin Wall, particularly the third version of it, reduced crossings by 99%. That is more effective than most modern medicines, yet I bet you still take meds, don't you?
The whole "walls don't ever work!" statement is the height of idiocy and historic blindness. The whole point of walls, from the walls of Jericho 8k years ago to the Separation Barrier in Israel today, is to control flows of easy movement and of commercial egress/ingress. They exist to reduce the number of people needed to control access to or through a given area. In this respect, walls work exceptionally well. There is a reason why people have built them for literally the entire history of settled civilization.
People let their dislike of Trump and Trumpism drive them to make the stupidest sorts of statements, with all the confidence of a child. You can argue that we shouldn't bother with a wall of this sort on our border, certainly you can, but saying walls never impede human movement? It is clear that the one who neither knows about nor cares about history here is YOU.
1
Would someone tell the Democrats that this is not, repeat not, about immigration or border security. This argument/impasse is about conservative spending of our tax monies. Yes, conservative, meaning that we are not squandering your hard earned tax payments on foolish stunts to build an ineffective tribute to one man's ego. It is the first step to return our country to good governance, where our tax dollars are not part of a contribution to the well-being of oligarchs, but rather are spent on things that benefit the rest of us, like healthcare, education and infrastructure repairs. That is what this argument is about, and it's critical that the Democrats prevail in order to begin returning sanity to our government.
97
@Eero
Can you, please, run for government!
3
@Eero
You got that right. The reason for republicans' existence is for the next time they can get close to our National Treasury to rifle it … disproportionately. Got my couple hundred bucks. Then a mind boggling trillion and a half over budget? How much more proof do we need. Make them an endangered species before they wipe us out.
2
@Eero Funny how we have to rely on the Democrats to stand up for fiscal conservatism.
Like any real estate developer, Donald Trump has never met a credit line he didn't like. There is nothing like having the worlds best credit rating behind your every need and want.
Remember the phrase "It depends on what the meaning of the word is is"? Come on, man. Politicians, please don't go down this road of smoke and mirrors and magician tricks to define "wall". "I got hit by a car". Will the insurance appraiser be asking "it depends on what the meaning of the word HIT is" or "the word CAR is".
We all know what Mr Trump's definition of what the wall is. It's a physical wall of concrete, steel, or whatever would seriously damage your car if you ran into it. Voters, don't let your Rep or Senator play these tricks. If Democrats accept any other definition, Mr Trump will continue his re-definition of everything - his stock bag of tricks. He has got be held accountable for what he says. He is the one who opened his mouth about "the wall". He has to take full responsibility. Period.
57
If the Democrats agree to a physical barrier it must be only as a result of major concessions including but not limited to long term budget funding, rollback of the corporate tax cuts, extension of the middle class tax cuts and restoration of 2/3 majority to confirm judicial appointments. Otherwise no agreement.
122
@Tibby Elgato
Add to Tibby's demands the re-imposition of SALT deduction.
1
@Tibby Elgato ....might as well add no land grabs citing eminent domain of the owners along the border.... no interruption of butterfly migration ...what else will get destroyed by Trump's Folly besides are standing in the world which he has already destroyed
1
With respect to Obama, there really are 2 Americas. One now in power; corrupt, racist, misogynist, engaged in legal theft, lethal non-violence, and denying the rights of amendment nine, increasing the debt; ruling by fiat without due process.
The blood and souls of children (in Yemen, 85,000 starving; in the US, 1000s held in cages, lying on prison mats) are on the hands in power. The White House that handed Syria with its ports to Russia. With Crimea, Russia now has strategic presence in Europe’s interior waterways, with England and France in decline. Russia’s gift of Syria is the first time the US has given the hegemony of an entire country to a foe.
The chaos tariffs caused on pricing and supply chains enhanced Russia’s military presence along these trade routes. Russian energy heats Europe (liquified natural gas). What happens without a nuclear agreement or NATO? Security? Are we better equipped for the next school attack?
Why can’t the wall be like Hoover Dam, public works, training workers? Create jobs, build casinos, legalize cannabis. Bring in revenue!
$5 trillion! No economic stimulus! For something that can’t hire you, can’t feed you, can’t house you, can’t teach you or pray for you; it won’t heat you or heal you or pay you or build a future--it won’t fix a road or build economies of scale. It’s cold steel, not even a prison, in the ground.
$5 trillion! We get no training or jobs. Just cold steel, in the ground.
52
@walterhett
You are so right.
If Congress approves a wall of any sort for any price there will only be more money that will be adding to the price of this "wall" in the future. And betting that it will approach its original price of $12 billion.
We need to spend that money on something way more important for our country.
Tyranny of the minority!
2
I have an idea -- employ environmental artists similar to Christo to design and construct an artistic wall. This could be a solution as well as an endowment to the arts.
6
Environmentalists don't build walls. Walls block the natural movement of living beings.
Christo did create "Running Fence," of course. It was mostly nylon sheets and was removed after two weeks.
Hmmm . . .
@Alan Day what about the wildlife small and large that pass thru? This is just nuts with all the technology at people finger tips, there must be a better way.
Stupid is as stupid does.
@Alan Day. Check out the amazing tongue in cheek design by estudio 3.14 that captures the essence of capitalism and xenophobia at the borders.
A picture is worth a thousand words, and one accompanying this article seems to show immigrants sitting on top of a "wall." Build it as high as you want, some people will find a way to scale it or dig under it. And then there's the real question of places along the border where sections of the US would need to fall on the "other" side of any barrier.
Surely in this age of drones, security cameras (for light at all spectra) and motion detectors could find interlopers.
But in the end, none of these items will substitute for reform of immigration laws now stalled on the books. Let's face it, in a time of full employment, we need to workers and a growing population that will help to grow GDP.
The time to stop immigration (if there ever was one) should have come before the Trump family immigrated from Germany. Too late now.
73
As always, words get in the way of rational analysis. The issue is not "wall" or "no wall". The fundamental issue is "border security" or "no border security". For those who believe that no border security is the correct answer, no further analysis is needed. We wouldn't have a wall, drones, boots on the ground, ICE, detention centers, etc.
For those who believe in border security, the analysis is much more difficult. Is it even possible to have partial border security? We have that now, with the result that only the more robust, ingenious and persistent get in. Maybe that is the unspoken goal of the current system--make them run a gauntlet, and we will "accept" the winners.
6
@william hayes It's not an all or nothing question. I don't think that anyone wants no border security. It's a matter of how much and what methods are appropriate.
The analysis is also not difficult. The people who do the actual job have the data and know exactly what needs to be done. The citizens who live along the border know exactly how their lives have been affected and what they want in their back yard. but they aren't getting listened to as political posturing seems more important.
10
Security or no security is not the question at all, that is just Trumpian lies again. Both parties want a secure border and a curb on illegal migration. They disagree on the best methods to achieve this. The giant physical wall Trump wants is not supported by Homeland Security or by any sane analysis of the problem. Trump just wants it because he likes to build stuff and can wrap his brain around simplistic ideas. He is also enjoying fighting with the Democrats.
4
I have yet to see any legislator say no border control is needed. That’s fake news.
5
What is a Wall? An existential question suitable for discussion over a glass of red wine at a Parisian cafe.
Of course, this is an idiotic debate, fueled by the news media, low information Trump, and his Ministers of Propaganda at Fox and Friends.
The real question is: What is the most cost effective means of Border Security?
And the corollary questions are: How do we deal with the employers who hire the undocumented workers? How do we deal with Dreamers? How do we deal with those who have overstayed their visas? (Mostly Canadians).
But, by all means, let’s continue to cover this dumbed down debate, effectively framed by low information Trump and the compliant news media as a debate about The Wall.
91
@Rita
You claim that "mostly Canadians" overstay their visas. I would love to see your statistical proof of this.
Trump's treatment of Canada is a major deterrent for us to spend $$ on US products shipped to Canada; to travel in the US: and certainly not "overstay" in "MAGA" USA. Our frightening southern neighbor nation is not Canada's friend.
8
@Rita
This is not about border security. It is about a rogue president thinking that he is the legislative, executive and judicial branch rolled into his lap. This is abut checking the wanna be dictator.
2
Most cost effective?
E Verify.
Probably get rid of about 50% quickly. Be ready for the businessmen to squeal like pigs stuck in a fence (they are the real supporters of open borders).
1
Playing semantic games while people's income is on the line is bad public policy. Of course, voting for a lying con artist is bad personal policy, so it would seem that many are responsible for our current state of affairs.
No wall will do what a well run immigration service can do. Children are sitting in virtual jails - innocent children - while the entire process has broken down and no Republican seems interested in creating a sustainable, workable solution. They rely on Trump slogans and tantrums which have gotten us exactly nowhere.
224
@Suzanne Moniz Our government is failing the American People. I agree with you. Building a wall will NOT address or create a sustainable solution that addresses the immigration challenges this nation is dealing with. Trump is behaving like an adolescent despot and WE THE PEOPLE should not allow him to get away with this. We are creating more problems by enabling his tantrums and whims.
11
@Suzanne Moniz
Do you think the Border Patrol should leave children who cross the border illegally to fend for themselves in the desert?
Do you think anyone who has children is entitled to U.S. citizenship and immunity to U.S. immigration laws?
3
@Suzanne Moniz
That all depends " upon what the meaning of is is" to quote half of one of the invited honored guest couples at the nuptials of Donald Trump and Melania Knavs
This slide into corrupt crony capitalist corporate plutocrat oligarchy moral degenerate cowardice and greed did not begin with Mr. and Mrs. William Jefferson Clinton nor will it end with Mr. and Mrs. Donald John Trump,Sr.
Ivana and Melania Trump managed to illegally enter and work in America before becoming naturalized by criminal fraud and infecting our nation with their spawn.
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