‘Clearly the Tide Has Not Turned’: A Q&A With Anita Hill

Dec 06, 2018 · 64 comments
Polly (New Zealand)
'There are very few problems where we make rules based on the possibility of false allegations'. This comment really struck me. I hadn't really thought of it that way before, and I think it's true. I admire Prof Hill's clarity of thought. Prof Hill's views on what could be done in the workplace seem to me to be practical and fair.
GWPDA (Arizona)
Ms. Hill - when my time in the box came in 1995, it was your voice I heard and your straightforward poise I borrowed. When I took my matter into court, I did so because you made me know that I could. When, 12 years later my dispute was resolved in my favor, I pointed to you as having given me the patience and sense to abide. Thank you.
eve (san francisco)
Thank you Ms. Hill for continuing to speak out about this. How horrific that we now have to justices we KNOW are abusers. How many really are?
weary traveller (USA)
Not exactly sure what made people believe we have come a long way in US. Some celebs cannot change the basic society.. what are we thinking ! We forgot Trump got elected in-spite of such allegations !
sarasotaliz (Sarasota)
Ms. Hill, I really admire you. You have been a role model for my generation. Thank you.
Kathleen (Massachusetts)
Anita Hill, if I did not thank you at the time, I want to thank you now. You had the courage to stand up to the old boys knowing they protect each other first. You made thousands of women proud and hopeful in 1991. Watching Dr. Ford testify was a painful and enraging reminder of how slowly change comes and of all the work ahead.
Steph (CA)
I know this sounds maybe strange. What about looking at what drives men biologically to behave this way, it seems endemic to the species. Many elite men seem particularly prone to this. Well then again it's not just limited to elite men. Why else would they do these things that are so hurtful to women.
Doug Hill (Norman, Oklahoma)
Headline for this interview should have been: Anita Hill slam dunks Susan Collins.
Working Stiff (New York)
Somehow, allegations of sexual misconduct seem to occasion more outrage among the media types when the accused is a Republican than when he (or she) is a Democrat.
Kyle (USA)
Claim you saw a pubic hair and be treated like a war hero the rest of your life, write a book, whine publicly, and the money flows. What a great scam. The woman that claimed 37 years ago a student was nearby when she was allegedly groped will be canonized, and the money flows.
pegeen1 (corea maine)
Anita Hill should be on the Supreme Court\ --peg c in Corea Maine
BHN (Virginia)
Didn't believe her then, don't believe her now.
Richard Fleishman (Palmdale, CA)
You are old news, Ms. Hill. Please go away.
MCD (Northern CA)
@Richard Fleishman Perfect example of Santayana's statement, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Good thing for us, some men have evolved.
Taffy Davies (Severna Park, MD)
Thank you Dr. Hill. I so appreciate your honesty balanced with hope. It is so frustrating day in and day out when things change at such a glacial pace. As women we are asked over and over to remain patient, our time will come. I honestly don’t know that it will change in my lifetime. But the hope remains for a distant future. I personally think the key is capital. Women need more of it. The more capital (financial and political) we control, the better chance we have of reforming the patriarchal culture.
Gustav (Durango)
Professor Hill's distinction between the legal standard of innocent until proven guilty and a political standard for a Supreme Court nominee is spot on. Susan Collins inappropriately conflated the two and no one called her on it. I wish Anita Hill had been on that Kavanaugh committee.
Niles (Colorado)
Ms. Hill lists "Preventing the retaliation that now hounds the majority of those who complain" as one of the things that needs to change. Amen. My experience has been that so long as retaliation has even a fig leaf of a cover story, it goes unchallenged. It's highly frustrating when everyone knows about predatory behavior, but nobody can do anything about it.
LeftCoastBoomer (California)
The problem begins in our culture - the way boys and girls are raised to conform with gender roles that are not healthy. Boys are made MASCULINE - all caps. Girls are made FEMININE. One is assertive, sometimes aggressive. The other is supportive, sometimes submissive.
David G (Monroe NY)
Nonsense! My wife and I were very forward-looking, and tried to raise our daughter and son without stereotypes. She was signed up for sports, he was signed up for ballet, as examples. You know what? They both reverted right back to the traditional roles, despite our efforts otherwise. It’s biological, sorry to tell you.
Uncommon Wisdom (Washington DC)
"What I cannot accept is the notion that many people have that women cannot be trusted to tell the truth about these violations." Between 2% and 10% of rape claims are unfounded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape If 10% of murder, larceny, or assault claims were completely bogus (think "Jackie" from the University of Virginia) then the entire criminal justice system would be undermined. When mistruths such as Ms. Hills are accepted as fact, then there is no such thing as truth--only emotion remains.
Kally (Boston)
@Uncommon Wisdom Yes, wikipedia is an excellent source to reference... smh
tapepper (MPLS, MN)
@Uncommon Wisdom "Mistruths such as Dr. Hills [sic]." Evidence? Also: I am unaware of the meaning of the word "mistruth."
RamS (New York)
@Uncommon Wisdom 2-10% is a fairly large deviation, and you assume that 10% are "completely unfounded" - at the worst case. Your assumption that false accusations don't happen in other cases is incorrect. The authors of that 2010 study (where they came up with the 2-10% number - others have also come up with something similar) give that range because there's a range of what consitutes "unfounded". I've seen the same types of numbers for index crimes (murder, aggravated assault, forcible rape, robbery, arson, burglary, larceny-theft, and motor vehicle theft). For the period of 1995-1997, the unfounded accusation rate for forcible rape was 8%, whereas for all the others, it was 2%. So not that different, especially in light of so much variation in what consittutes "unfounded". See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#FBI_statistics_(1995%E2%80%931997) I recommend this article also. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45565684 So even though 2-10% of accusations of forcible rape are unfounded, the number of people who actually are penalised based on these unfounded accusations is a very very tiny fraction. That's why the criminal justice system exists. Every high profile case you know of, like the UVa one, is one where the false accusation has been exposed for what it is.
Pat S (Los Angeles)
When what Ms Hill talks about is needed in every industry and workplace why has she aligned herself only with Hollywood?
KPH (Massachusetts)
Ms. Hill, Can you be persuaded to run for office? I'm about 20 minutes from Brandeis U. I would be excited to help you do it and I would be honored to have you represent me. We need you.
Mary Ann (Seattle, WA)
I was riveted to the Thomas confirmation hearings because of my prior experience with sexual harassment while working in a federal agency. I can say unequivocally that the way I was treated by the agency after I complained was far, far worse than what actually happened to me. The "chain of authority" had no idea how to appropriately deal with the situation, and of course, the problem was me, not my manager. My biggest mistake was quitting - so there I was for a time, paying legal fees with my unemployment check. I still have my legal files - the one time I thumbed through them, a year or two after it was over, I broke down sobbing ... I didn't recognize the "me" as I was characterized in internal memos. I haven't been able to look in there again, since.
Mtn14 (Colorado)
Thank you for this article, Ms. Hill. And thanks to the NYTimes for publishing something I still want to reckon with, weeks after it dominated the news cycle. This is the most hopeful and clearheaded article I’ve read about Kavanaugh. And I hope it’s widely read as we look back over the year we’ve all lived through.
debby (ny, ny)
Mine happened in 92. I just wanted to thank you, Ms.Hill for giving me the strength to fight. The one in 87 I took the payment, Thank you Ms.Hill
Rich Hadfield (Columbia, mo)
Just ponder the fact that we now have allegations of sexual misconduct against two justices sitting on United States Supreme Court.
Wally Wolf (Texas)
@Rich Hadfield Yes, and one has a really bad temper and hates democrats and the Clintons. Well, maybe make that two.
kimj (Chattanooga, TN)
and a president who believes "he is entitled to be abusive to whomever he wants" It was only a matter of time until a "regular citizen" used President Trump's behavior to condone his own. These people are living examples of our values in this country, and the fact that this behaviour is not only allowed, but condoned, and indeed lauded by putting these people in positions of power sends a horrible message to everyone who is not a straight, white male. I am a 52 year old professional white female, and I have encountered abhorrent behavior in literally every single job I have ever had. Every. Single. One. I have never reported any of it, and why? Because if it doesn't matter for Anita Hill or Dr. Ford when a Supreme Court Justiceship is at stake, why on earth would it matter in my situation? The fact that the same scenario played out 27 years later makes me want to cry, but the fact that it has played out in Fortune 500 corporations and law firms where I have worked for the past 30 makes me want to throw up AND cry. What have I learned from all of this? People in positions of (any amount of, even perceived) power over others too often respond not by living up to people's expectations, but by acting as though rules of common decency do not apply to them. I have pondered Rich, and I need to go throw up and cry now. @Rich Hadfield
Carson Drew (River Heights)
@Rich Hadfield: Highly credible allegations.
Ceilidth (Boulder, CO)
Blasey Ford and Hill have shown us such class and intelligence and truthfulness. I still remember Hill's honesty and the way that Republicans and some Democrats threw her to the wolves and attempted to destroy her reputation. After witnessing that, I can't understand how another woman--and I mean Susan Collins--could throw Blasey Ford under the bus so that a whining, self pitying misogynst with a serious drinking problem could be elevated to the Supreme Court. Why blame her? Because she's chosen the Old Boy's Club of sexual abuse and her misogynistic party. Shame on Susan Collins. Her "explanation" was so pathetic and utterly self serving. Anita Hill is a national hero by contrast: intelligent, thoughtful, and honest. Kavanaugh and Thomas will always be the opposite until they acknowledge their own histories. I'm not holding my breath.
Larry R (Burlington VT)
@Ceilidth, yes, Susan Collins is a particular kind of raving narcissist. History will not be kind to her, nor should it. I listened to her gallumping pedantry and threw up a bit. I kept thinking, how nice for her. How nice, indeed.
Lynn in DC (um, DC)
I don't think Anita Hill and Christine Ford have similar situations at all. If I were Hill, I would have distanced myself from Ford. I am still unsure what to make of Ford's story. She is either a very calculating person or a confused person who was taken advantage of by political operatives. Her inability to remember details of what transpired made it impossible for anyone else to provide specific contradictory evidence, Kavanaugh's Beach Week calendar aside, and of course, no one could reliably say they specifically recalled what happened.
PrincessLeia (Deep State)
Yes but Ford’s was a more harrowing story than Hill’s, who apparently followed Thomas to a new job even after the alleged pubic hair in a coke can. Hill needs Ford’s story.
ConA (Philly,PA)
@Lynn in DC I still can't get past the fact that such a mediocre person (Kavanaugh) is on our highest court in the land, he isn't in the same league as Justice Ginsburg
BuffCrone (AZ)
@PrincessLeia Professor Hill doesn't need anyone else's story. History has revealed that everything she testified to is true, and that Clarence Thomas committed perjury. It will be harder for Professor Ford to find external validation of her attack because so much more time has passed. But there are millions of women and men in America who found her story credible, and the behavior of Brett Kavanagh ample evidence that he does not deserve to serve on the highest court.
Shiloh 2012 (New York NY)
The History of Women at Work - Woman goes to work and is maltreated . - Woman speaks up in her own defense. - Woman is deemed a problem that must be dealt with, quickly and harshly. Change won't come easily. But one thing hasn't changed: Anita Hill is an American hero.
Stanley (Winnipeg, Manitoba)
....honesty and education...the start, then comes further self respect for self and others. A passion to be a human being has often been sabotaged by others who control our lives. It is much easier to live in working when we do it from a feeling deep within ourselves. Essentially we have learned to fear in loosing self respect. We fear not being able to express ourselves. Therefore, we fear conversations, we fear loosing our jobs and even friends and family. The most important things we do in life will never really be seen...and there is everything right about this for we are not totally of this world. If we think everything ends with the end of life then there is a problem, but even with that idea step by step, as quickly as each individual can, we can and need make a more fully human world. i would be so much less had I not been taught, learned and felt that without treating women and men in equal respect I would be missing so much in life no matter how much material wealth I might have experienced. Might I humbly add, it does not matter where you were born in terms of sharing with all others, it is just we get used to using our own culture for expression...but it's only a help and not the end of the story. America has in my life time been a bench mark for me and, now, it so much shows me how I personally have failed so far more than I ever thought I would. For over fifty years one of my fights has been against harassment, especially sexual , and especially against women
Michelle (US)
@Stanley - beautiful.
sfdphd (San Francisco)
Professor Hill, thank you for your insight and your fortitude. You have inspired me to keep going despite disbelief and efforts to shame...
EMB (Boston)
NYTimes, HOW COULD YOU use this descriptor of Professor Hill? "She was alternately tart and deliberative." Tart? That word is so loaded, both as the pejorative stereotype of an angry black woman as well as a label for a female sexual provocateur. It evokes all the negative labeling of the 1991 hearing. Professor Hill is right that nothing has changed, and nothing will if even (female!) journalists can't speak respectfully about a woman whose bold actions against her harasser sparked a national movement.
urbanprairie (third coast)
@EMB Thanks for calling out the troubling word choice. Reading Hill's actual words, rather than the journalist's opinion of the conversation, makes clear how articulate Hill is. Her qualities of articulateness, experience, insight, courage, and legal acumen are the leadership qualities we need, and fortunately have, through her work. Thank you Anita Hill. Wishing you strength.
JR (Providence, RI)
@EMB "Tart" (adj.) is defined as "marked by a biting or cutting quality." It is not necessarily pejorative in describing speech and in this case could be construed as a fitting and even admiring description of some of her justifiably sharp responses to this entrenched and troubling problem.
Susan chira (<br/>)
@EMB Thanks so much for your comment. I certainly understand your concern about any labeling of black women as angry. I used the word "tart" as the commentor below noted, with no pejorative intended.
GH (Los Angeles)
Thank you, Professor Hill, for sharing your thoughts and reflections. “Is it safe?” is a pivotal question in the movie Marathon Man. Pose that same question to women today about coming forward with sexual harassment concerns, and I think the Kavanaugh hearing provides a clear answer: No. It's not safe, it's very dangerous, be careful.
AlexW (London)
Once again I am struck by Hill's gravitas and measured intelligence. Just as I was struck by Blasey Ford's as she explained basic neuroscience in court. Their behaviour, as adults, stands in sharp contrast to that of the men in the frame. Kavanaugh's emotional display was particularly egregious in context. As for the below from Hill, it blows me away: I’m not sure if I’m optimistic, pessimistic, or pragmatic. It has to do with my whole background. My parents were born in 1911 and 1912. My mother lived into her 90s, my father until his 80s. I measure change by what happened in their lifetimes. My grandfather was a slave, certainly his mother was a slave. I’m only two generations at most from slavery. I think I have the right to be hopeful. Because I see how far we’ve come. I’m very clearheaded about how far we have to go. Clearheaded indeed. If only the judges in question had that attribute.
Louise (USA)
How about passing the ERA, getting the Catholic Conference of Bishops out of women's health care, how about passing legislation that ACTUALLY ensures women are 1st CLASS citizens in this country instead of 2nd class in 2018; equal pay, family leave, Medicare for All etc. etc.... I could go on and on... Boy, baby, we have NOT come a long way!
St. Paulite (St. Paul, MN)
People talk as if it could have been easy for Anita Hill or for Christine Blasey Ford to testify. It wasn't. Anita Hill was denigrated as "nutty", and Professor Ford has had her life turned upside down, has had to live in hiding for fear of what the far-right might do to her and her family. Nobody would want this kind of exposure. Both women must have done what they did out of a sense of civic duty, and for that they deserve to be honored. Both occurrences show how desperate the Republicans are to get their sort of nominee on the Supreme Court, regardless of his attitude towards women. After the hysterical performance of Judge Kavanaugh, it was surprising that he would be given any job, let alone one of the nation's highest positions.
Michelle (US)
@St. Paulit - I agree. Hill and Ford are American heroes.
Veena Vyas (SFO)
@St. Paulite Thank you, my exact thoughts, :)
jc (Brooklyn)
To those who lauded Alan Simpson for his Bush eulogy and for advising against hate I say remember his hate filled persecution of Anita Hill. Sad to say it doesn’t seem to have done him much harm. Not many even seem to remember. I’ll never forget.
Carson Drew (River Heights)
@jc: Ah, yes, I too remember it well. According to Simpson, accusations that Anita Hill had "certain proclivities" were coming in over his office transom. In other words, he was repeating innuendos that Hill was a lesbian. But after she passed a polygraph during the hearings, her Republican accusers swiftly changed course, branding her a heterosexual "erotomaniac," warm for Clarence's form. The most despicable liar of all was George H.W. Bush. He insisted that Thomas was nominated because he was the highest qualified candidate in the land and that his race played no part in his being chosen.
Veena Vyas (SFO)
@Carson Drew It was race that played the major part here. That is why the Democrats and Joe Biden were afraid and they did not call more witnesses to his pathetic behavior. Clarence Thomas was elected for the color of his skin. I am sure there are many African Americans were/are highly qualified to be put on that highest judicial system in USA. I am glad many women are brave enough to come forward. Ironically it is women who voted for this predator, and also brain washed women who think boys will be boys. I totally admire Dr Hill and Dr Ford, I hope they are commended at the national level for everyone to recognize the service they had done by being brave enough to come forward.
LB (San Diego, CA)
Thank you for this interview with the brave and inspiring Anita Hill. Her analysis of where we are now and comments on what's necessary to make progress on the issue of sexual harassment are important and appreciated, now more than ever.
Mon Ray (Ks)
Ms. Blasey Ford's allegations were known to key Democrats for months before Mr. Kavanaugh's hearings began and could easily have been brought up before or during Mr. Kavanaugh's penultimate hearing, but Senator Feinstein and others delayed making the allegations public in order to delay and disrupt the confirmation process. The delays were not of Mr. Kavanaugh's making and were not a search for truth and justice; they were purely and simply Democratic political theater. Absent corroboration Ms. Blasey Ford's allegations became a she says-he says dispute based on the memory of someone who was unable to recall such basic facts as the day, month, year or city in which the alleged incident took place; in whose house the alleged incident occurred; whether 2 or 4 boys were present; and how she got to/from the house where the alleged attack took place. Those she named as corroborating witnesses did not confirm her story. In the U.S. those accused of crimes are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Ms. Blasey Ford had 35 years in which to file a civil or criminal case against Mr. Kavanaugh, but did not. She had 35 years to share her story with the media but did not. Yet suddenly her allegations were raised just in time to try to derail the confirmation of Mr. Kavanaugh, which indicates an underlying political motivation. We Democrats lost the 2016 Presidential election, too bad, now let's turn our energies and talents to ensuring that we win the 2020 elections.
Roxane (London)
@Mon Ray Read the article. Ms. Hill states very clearly why legal processes should not serve as cover in political processes. Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard that does not apply in a confirmation hearing.
Mary Ann (Seattle, WA)
@Mon Ray I have two words to say about your complaint re Feinstein's alleged delay: Merrick Garland.
Veena Vyas (SFO)
@Mon Ray why don't you read about the psychology of the victim, as to what they remember and what they do not. Why they don't tell people about the assaults, even after decades. One woman in her 90s cried and told her story for the first time, and she was assaulted when she was a teenager. Do you think she will remember all the nitty gritty details about it, she the victim carries the burden to her grave! Both women are very brave to come forward. They had done a great service to the nation, to tell that those candidates are not worth to put in the highest judicial system in USA. Yet you along with those despicable senators are still throwing stones at these incredibly honest and brave women. Dr Ford clearly explains about the brain and what the victim remembers and not remember in her testimony. Just educate yourself!!!
true patriot (earth)
predatory males are still in ascendance
Amy (Brooklyn)
Where is the discussion of the very real possibility that Ms Ford's testimony maybe can't be taken at face value?
GH (Los Angeles)
Where is the meaningful investigation of the allegations?
Amy (Brooklyn)
@GH There is no statute of limitations on sexual assault cases in Maryland. If Ms Ford cared about serious investigation, all she has to do is to go to any police station in Maryland and file charges.