I like the way you think, Ms. Neuman.
19
Wait around for guys and you'll wait forever. Never have, never will and it's why I have been married three times (one died young). Paid my own way as soon as I had a job as I did not want to owe anything to a date. Love men and my independence and found men who value that about me over the past fifty years.
24
I’ve been married and divorced 4 times. 3 out of 4 were successful unregrettable relstionships. I have 2 wonderful adult kids from #1. I was in love, temporarily with #1, 2, and 4. In each case, they came to me, or rather, I needed to be assured they gave me permission to love them. Same with 5 other relatively long term girl friend relationships . I was pursued,even if just to get it going mutually. I’m in year # 10 with The latest GF, who grabbed me off the dance floor in 2008. The caveat? Don’t tell, I fell out of love again. The one I did pursue and loved the deepest, left me after a year, with a broken heart and all , the girl of my dreams, The Rest were Sadie Hawkins and they snared me, but I love more deeply by choosing it seems ... as did the Sadie’s of my life , altho unrequited from me , the chosen one z
1
Speak for yourself John?
Maybe courtship has its own rules?
Nah. It is the patriarchy what did it.
And those poor Indian woman in arranged marriages. They have no agency! Or do they? Nah. They are so backward.
2
When a guy asks a girl to marry him because he totally loves her, that's the best.
If she asks, he may just think, heck why not give it a try. She may not even get an engagement ring. Still, it could work out.
However, if a girl knows he really likes her, she should just has to wait till he pops the question.
3
Cool.
All that needs to happen is for males to finally respect females. That includes not calling girls and women whores or sluts whenever a female either does speak up as to her wants or when she declines a relationship with a male (often leading to very real concerns for her physical safety).
7
Yeah, but let's not forget why men need to approach and prove themselves worthy of a woman's affections as a rule.
A peacock is a magnificent sight to a human eye because countless generations of peahens have been inclined to look at them and think "Meh" basically. And Ted Bundy was a handsome and superficially charming man.
As much as it pains me very badly that overwhelmingly women can't seem to just choose, but seem to need a man to make them choose, there are important evolutionary reasons why this is so.
As an aside: the inability of the seeming vast majority of feminists to accept that things may be the case for inherent, natural reasons and not just contingent, social ones is something I find very unattractive.
3
When my daughters were growing up my advice about boys was, if you like him, go after him. They listened to me and found their soulmates.
16
How do large numbers of couples meet? Dating apps. Dating apps and social media empower men, not women. Apps encourage potential dates to make snap judgments based on superficial standards, like pictures, and the men seem to hold all the power. Of course a women can "swipe" in the other direction, but this is not a Sadie Hawkins dance in middle school. It is still the man making the choice in the end. In the new world of FOMO, if you like a Guy, and tell him, chances are your next Saturday night will be spent watching old movies home alone with the cat.
1
Objectify the patriarchy, that's what I always say! What could possibly be more damaging to male hegemony than to have to consider the desires of women because women act on their desires? Why, that would almost mean having to consider that women are people!
5
my theory is that it is always the woman who decides if you're going to go steady, the woman who decides if you're going to have sex, the woman who decides if you going to get married and the woman who decides if she is going to have a baby. It doesn't matter who does the asking. I would applaud women telling men they are attracted to them. It would be so human! They would then, like men, have to wait for a response. Then it might be men who decide!
9
If only I knew when I was younger how much I would come to appreciate my latent Orthodox Jewish tendencies. Something about a man placing his hands on a woman without her explicit permission never did seem quite right.
Fortunately, women are not all as possessed of obeisance as they might otherwise be conditioned.
1
Women should feel free to ask. Then guys can learn the right way to ask by their example.
6
"If You Like a Guy, Tell Him. Only Then Will Women Be Free.
Let every day be Sadie Hawkins Day."
Yes, yes, and yes. One other thing: only then will men be free too.
8
I concur with the author. I will add that I am a big proponent of men and women just being friends sometimes.
10
"A generation comes and a generation passes away." Sadie Hawkins Day belongs to another time (my time and yours, Kate). Beautifully written piece. Here's to the new generation of gender equality.
1
I liked a bashful (his word) engineer who hadn't the slightest idea how to talk to someone from the "female species". I worked slowly, fed him well, and, finally, asked him if he wanted to move with me when I changed jobs to another city. We still don't remember the yes but he said he thought I was his "last best chance". Almost 30 years later it's still working and he's mystified how he ended up married and happy. Heh. Heh.
18
Congratulations to the author, Kate Neuman.
You have just opened up the Pandoras Box of so many different points of views, varied experiences, and discussions among commenters that I’ve ever read in response to an op-ed. You certainly hit a major cultural and gender nerve with this piece.
One of my experiences? My first real heartbreak occurred after I reached up and gently kissed a young man good night. Our first and only kiss, despite the fact that we were clearly in love with one another and had been seeing each other for some time. My mistake: We came from two different cultures in which the rules about who makes the first move were slightly more rigid in his as opposed to mine. From this one behavior of mine, he concluded that the cultural barrier was simply too wide to be overcome.
Boy, this stuff can get complicated.
14
Direct verbal communication of interest by a woman to a man is more egalitarian than flirting, waiting by the phone, seduction, all the cultural norms. Male pursuit and female seduction is inherently unequal. It may have a biological basis—we don’t know, but civilization can modulate our worst instincts. People on both sides of the political divide understand that economic and political equality between all genders on a national level threatens patriarchal personal relationships. Women should make personal decisions on their relationships while waging the bigger battle.
3
Life became so much easier when I met a woman who told me what she wanted. She said what she meant, and meant what she said, and we ended up married for 28 years.
19
Gee, I don't know. Most of the time I made my inclinations known, and almost as often, was punished for it later. My impression was that a lot of guys liked to pursue, and if deprived of the opportunity, it would end badly later, as in you'd be taken for granted. Maybe I picked on the wrong guys, eh?
11
@Mary Ann
Men know what they like. If they don't want you, no amount of confidence, forwardness, or charm will change that. If a man is shy and interested in you, then he will respond positively. If he is not into you, you can't change his mind. Just look for the signs. Mainly, does he check you out? Does he look over your body?
Once at a ski bar, I was studiously ignoring a woman who seemed interested in me. She finally tapped on my shoulder to get my attention. It didn't end well. I knew she was interested, but i was not. So, I ignored her until she forced the issue. Women don't get points for being courageous or direct. Either a man is interested or he is not, and he knows this the moment he looks at you.
The same is sort of true with women. I've known women who liked me, but not a first. That's mainly because I am short. At 5' 7", I'm almost nobody's type, until I open my mouth (or take off my shirt). My general assumption is that every woman over 5' 2" has written me off at first sight. I never ever flirt. I just chat and blather. If I sense interest (and I am interested), I move like a cobra (no hesitation), but not until I sense interest, and that's usually after two hours of conversation (during which time my height is overshadowed by my wit and intelligence). I often get promoted from the friend zone in a mere two hours, but it takes those two hours.
4
Absolutely. Tell me!
2
Do you mean there are still women out there who don't!
3
Preach on!
How does my liking a guy make women free? Not everyone is heterosexual NYT. Biased much?
1
Is now a good time to talk about Don Juan? Because that's really what Neuman is talking about. We're talking about the historical ideas of sexuality characterized by masculine honor and feminine integrity. Don Juan lacked honor and Doña Ana lacked integrity. The man was of course the seductress (and proud). If we want to flip the story on its head though, we'll land more or less on Ms. Neuman's feet.
Is that really where we want relationships to be? I'm not so sure. Don Juan, or any other romantic archetype, was only representing something much older. Adam and Eve is a bad example but Neuman is on the right theme.
Why don't we look to something more modern? Tragedy though it may be Romeo and Juliet is actually a better representative model. Boy and girl fall and love. Despite practical obstacles, they signal their affection for one another and get married. For these purposes, we can forget the ending.
That's how relationships actually work. You signal attraction. Your attraction is either reciprocated or its not. How we signal is defined by gender norms but the reciprocal nature of the relationship is not. Catching the right person on the wrong day might mean the difference between everything and nothing. Who starts the conversation is largely irrelevant.
5
This is a timely piece in the #MeToo movement. As long as some men beleive that women aren't supposed to say "Yes" even when they want a sexual advance, those men will have use it as an excuse to disregard "No" as something a woman only says but doesn't mean.
5
I took her to lunch before her internship ended, exchanged numbers and forgot about it. Two weeks later she called and left a message, “in case you lost my number”. We’re married 18 years and have two beautiful children. Word! Make it happen,she did.
10
Women’s desire is men’s prerogative?
Clearly you have never been a teenage boy. Getting girls to pay any attention was always the challenge. It would have been nice to have one or two come up to me and tell me they thought I was swell.
But I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side. For me, it seems waiting for men to ask you out is pleasant, easy, and, frankly, a bit lazy, whereas doing the asking was always slightly, umm, terrifying.
Glad I’m happily married.
5
I vehemently disagree with the author. In this world FIRST women have to be free to say no and mean it without reprecussions (like getting beaten or raped or killed). Only when you are truly free to say no, can you be emoldened to say yes.
7
When the #MeToo movement has accomplished all its goals, then we can talk about this. Right now, forget it.
3
Yes, well, if "sex" were a math exam, you'd be right, but it's not.
3
I was pursued by my now-husband after responding with interest to his attention at a party-- meaning, we talked and talked, and I enjoyed talking to him, and we had sexual chemistry. While I'm open and talkative, I am shy about initiating physical contact, and the dynamic of him being more forward in that area worked for us. It was sexy for both of us. I don't think it needs to be one way or another (he asks her out / she asks him out -- if we're discussing heterosexual relationships, which the author appears to be) -- I think we all need to feel free to do what is comfortable for us and not hold back out of fear or the shaming of others. I would say that among my friends, half of the girls have been more passive while half the guys have been the ones being pursued. For a while now, women have felt empowered to pursue the men they desire. This is what I grew up with. But what needs to stop is when women are "slut-shamed" for it. What happens after this supposed progressive dance?
3
I just texted a man I like to wish him happy Sadie Hawkins day. Honestly I think he's going to have to look it up to see what I mean. The truth is as an alpha female I find it hard to wait and this causes me to pursue, get bored, and walk away before the guy knows what hit him. Also as an alpha I am sometimes rejected, but I can roll with that. LIve by the sword, die by the sword and all that...
I often wonder what the "right" way is, but I'm pretty sure I don't know it. Maybe its different for everyone. Help anyone?
2
Now you tell me! I grew up believing that it was always up to the boy to convince the girl, that she was not supposed to be attracted to the boy on her own. I want my money back!!
2
I know something about love
Gotta want it bad
If that man's got into your blood
Out and get him
If you want him to be the very part of you
That makes you want to breathe
Here's the thing to do
Tell him that you're never gonna leave him
Tell him that you're always gonna love him
Tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him right now
Billie Davis 1963
6
I asked my now-husband out. Twice. Worth it! Women, don't wait. The experience did give me a little more appreciation for what men have to go through as society's expected romance instigator.
8
This is a simple engineering problem. If only one sex is allowed to initiate, then the silence of the other sex cannot be interpreted as rejection. But if both sexes can initiate, the silence of the other sex will imply, and be interpreted as, rejection. ("Why hasn't she asked me out yet? I guess she'd say 'no' if I asked ....").
Not only that, but it would double the number of people who feel rejected solely on account of not being asked.
And shouldn't a woman want a man who's willing to risk rejection for a date?
On the other hand, it's every man's fantasy. That alone should give a woman pause...
2
My wife started stalking me in high school at age 16. She got my schedule from a friend working in the principal's office and began to be omnipresent around my locker and various classes. Finally she sent a friend to my best friend to deliver a message. I remember he said to me: "Mark , if you could go out with any girl in the high school who would it be?" I said 'Kathy! He said "Your wish is granted." We married at 22 and have had a nearly perfect 48 year marriage having successfully dealt with a whole bunch of life's challenges. I still remember with utter clarity our first magical kiss on the front steps of her parents house on a snowy winter night and agree with Kathy that "life turned out better than I could even have imagined at 16" . Smaltzy but true . We have a lot of kids and grandkids who will back up our story.
9
The idea of this even being a thing is too funny. Anyone — woman or man — who really wants another person (of any gender) can get the message across without chasing and tackling the object of their ardour. The big unknown is always whether the one you lust for is receptive, and reciprocating. If you have to ask, point blank, “Are you attracted to me?”, the answer is probably no.
Waiting around to be asked out is bad enough — just go ahead and ask! —but the concept of cooling your heels until until a man gets around to proposing is just too much to bear. I was proposed to a few times myself, before I met my husband. He even tried the proposal-under-the-stars thing once (I gave him a rain check). The whole thing felt so silly and archaic to me. I never thought I was some princess needing to be saved, a treasure to be claimed. I never thought it was up to the man to make that decision! Why do so many people need the public dramatics of the Big Ask?
Marriage is a contract: you should understand and accept that from the beginning. Both parties should come to the table as equals. Eye to eye.
When I finally decided it was time to marry, I was the one who said, “I want to get married. Let’s go to City Hall.” The current obsession with dramatic, down-on-one-knee, Instagrammable proposals just makes me depressed. Call me a curmudgeon, but I don’t trust the dramatics. I’ve seen enough marriages that started with a romance-novel proposal dissolve in the blink of an eye.
5
Having been out of the dating business for 27 years now I thought that with the advent of dating services, initial expressions of interest in another person were pretty much mutual. From this article, evidently that is not so.
Developing a relationship should not be a game with one side keeping their cards closer to their chest and withholding information about their feelings from the other person. An approach like that in an actual relationship or marriage augurs problems ahead.
Maybe you can't be frank with all people about such things, but you want to ultimately find someone with whom you can. Drop those who regard relationships as a game.
8
Being happily married for 30 years, my opinion might no longer matter. But on our first date weekend, my wife made the first move to kiss me, to which I responded enthusiastically. I've always appreciated women being able and willing to express their desires openly. I did propose marriage, but it was a spontaneous outpouring with no preplanned hoopla. The supposed appeal of the whole "chase" scenario utterly eludes me. Nothing seems more natural than two people expressing their attraction and affection when the spirit moves them.
11
Although my now husband called me first after getting my number from a mutual friend, after a few phone conversations I asked him out. As things got more serious between us I recall him asking me if I would please let him be the one to propose marriage if and when the time came. I agreed, after some discussion about why this was important to him (his answer was about his own emotional needs) and he eventually asked me to be his wife in the most low-key, no pressure for gratitude way. Women do want things like kisses, companionship, and equal division of household and workplace labor, not to mention equal pay, and we absolutely should not allow any outmoded gender stereotypes to inhibit us from asking. As my Dad says, you never know until you ask.
4
Back in the ‘60s the high schools on Long Island would have Sadie Hawkins Day dances, where the girls asked the boys for dates & we would dress up like Li’l Abner characters. I’m sure there are those who could give 10 reasons why this would be a bad idea in today’s world, but here’s 1 argument in favor...at least there’d be one day a year where kids would realize that the way things are is not necessarily the way they have to be.
7
@michael kauffman, in the very early 1970s I attended “Cotillion” classes at a country club. For those not familiar, these were dance and manners classes for girls and boys in sixth and seventh grades. It was a very formal affair, with the girls lined up organist one wall, and the boys on the other. Most of the time it was the boys who asked the girls to dance, but there was always at least one dance where the girls got to be the choosers. I loved that dance! I have always hated the judgement and self doubt of waiting to be chosen. Even at age 12 was screaming inside at the unfairness of it all.
5
I told my husband to be that I rented the hall for our marriage - told him where and when. Happily married for 36 years. Ladies, do not be shy!
5
@Dr. P. H.
So the proposal was a foregone conclusion?
This is truly what equality would look like as well. As a society I think we are ready to break this wall down. My wife and I are fans of the Bachelor/Bachelorette series and your article reminded me of my continued annoyance that the Bachelorette does not do the proposing and yet she is clearly making the choices!
2
I asked out my (now) husband. Two of my female friends proposed to their (now) husbands. I just saw an ad for a men's proposal ring on a TV in a restaurant. It just takes time and people seeing examples of it working in media and in their friends' lives. My first question to anyone sitting around waiting is "Why haven't you asked him?"
6
Freedom for women to ask is great. But it's only a first step. Both (or should I say all) genders should have the freedom to spell out what they want and be taken seriously--as in, I want to have dinner with you but that doesn't mean anything serious yet, or I really am amorously attracted to you, or whatever the degree of feeling at the moment is. The entire dating scene is distorted by all kinds of falsely-constructed expectations, and everyone is so scared of making the wrong move they often don't move at all. Totally open communcation would make life so much less pressured and dangerous for everyone.
11
@Oriflamme
it's the mating dance...
1
As a shy guy I would have never had a date if I had not been asked by a woman, not for a date but asked if I would like to get a coffee or a drink after some event brought us together. We would then get to know each other a little and maybe be friends or maybe then date each other.
I do know that a woman who thinks she is sending some subtle signal of her interest will probably be disappointed guys just aren't good at subtle.
5
Provocative and well-written piece. It's true that society has codified gendered mating patterns into societal and cultural norms. I think women should express and manifest their desires as much as possible provided that it be governed under the same rules that apply to everyone else. But, like others here, I disagree with Ms Neuman's prognosis.
Firstly, while it might serve as a rallying call for women - which I'm all for - male aggression is at least partly biochemical and physiological - not merely the product of female passivity or 'narcissism' to fill the void. Men and women are more alike than different and on the broad spectrum, there are some women that are more aggressive than some men (my girlfriend, for example, felt me up around the first time we met). But on the whole, at the ends of the spectrum, men are more aggressive. they are more likely to be physically aggressive and, given their relative advantages in physical strength, more likely to engage in behavior that may not only be injurious, but lethal. For that reason, I'm all for females getting over antiquated mating rules. But aggression, male or female, must be tempered with control and limits. It isn't really the repressed individuals (men or women) that I'm most worried about, it's the victims of those unrepressed desires - those who are not sure about what they're feeling, are too traumatized to say 'no' nor have the physical capacity to ward off unrequited advances - that should be addressed.
1
@Diaphanous Mind
How did we get from asking someone out to assault? The author is not suggesting that women force themselves on unwilling men, but find the nerve to voice their interest. In doing so, we'd not only break lingering romantic conventions, we'd also place ourselves in that nerve-wracking spot that had traditionally be reserved to gentlemen: lay bare our hearts and risk the humiliation of having them kicked to the curb, and be left with trying to make a gracious denial of any hurt received, and walk away with as much dignity as the moment allows. Many (most) men, to their credit, take that chance and know to walk away if rejected. My hat off to any person of either sex who can do that well. So perhaps that is why many women are slow to make that move: not out of deference for outdated rules, but because to make an overture is as frightening to a shy girl (woman) as it is to a shy boy (man), so it's tempting to hide behind the convention.
3
I agree with your Mom to let the man come to you. As much as I'd like to think myself a progressive woman, men need the chase. I've also found my relationships are more fulfilling when he takes the lead instead of me initiating. Sadie Hawkins may work for some but she's in the past for me as this lady is done with her.
9
Darn it, Kate. Where were you when I was in my 20s and going on with my life, as much as a love-torn Romeo as a serious college student? I could have jotted a fistful of notes to hand deliver to particular enchanters of the day.
However, never mind. That's the story of my life - either too early or too late. every time.
Seriously, though, I shouldn't complain. Providence sent my way the girl of my dreams with all the qualities my heart desired, and plenty more that I did not even think of. My complaint is my stunner of a wife was with me only for 40 short years before the angels took her back. Guess, must have been getting lonely up there. Still, angels are not supposed to be that selfish. That kind of thinking is only for us - humans. I wish they could, would somehow send her back.
12
Unpredictable strains of puritanism have risen again in the country, whether in response to or as a reflection of the calibration of gender/sexualism/classism/monetary worth that has put far too many pinched faces close by.
If you want to kiss, look into the man or woman's eyes and tell him or her. Don't let the scolds rule.
5
Women won't be free until they stop telling other women how to be free women.
22
Thank you. Two weeks ago, I was told via an article in this paper to hate bake sales. I love bake sales. Awhile ago, I believe I was told by an author that I would be happy having kids. I don't like children. This week, I am told to ask out men. I love being chased. I bought my own house, isn't that enough to show I am free. Decades ago, a woman needed a man's signature to get a loan.
I don't see articles written by men in this paper telling them what to do.
The Style Section of this paper needs to mature. If I wanted to read a Cosmopolitan article, I would buy the magazine.
4
So, if a man "wants", he's "bad" and "narcissistic" and a woman is an "object". But if a woman wants, she's good, not narcissistic and the man isn't an object.
Ok, just wanted to be clear of the massive level of hypocrisy in the article.
21
Women have every right to control the situations they find or place themselves in, without having to justify their actions to anyone.
3
In my experience men are mostly shy and if they do attempt to ask a woman out they need assurances that she will say yes first. A strong hint or two or three may be needed.
However, some men are quite bold and daring. Many without caring. Attractive, but they might not be the best mates. There is an epidemic of Narcissistic Personalities in our culture. They take what they want. Beware of them.
The trick to finding a mate is looking to see how much they care about you and others. Ask for help from them, for yourself or others. See how they respond. The ones that you want to avoid are all about themselves.
Woman should look for and pick the ones that pass the care test. Keep in mind they are on their best behavior for a while. You can see the cracks in the superficial persona if you look carefully though.
I think you can reverse the gender and preferences and make the best choices using the Care test.
The definition of love is that you care as much or more about another as you do yourself. Look for that.
9
I don’t think anyone is thinking beyond heteronormative norms here. For non-hook-up based romance, I’d recommend a standard Expression of Interest tender, complete with references and a mandatory 30-day ‘cooling off’ period. The ‘Love Me Tender’ seems the only fair way to manage this critical procurement process.
4
To quote the inimitable trailblazer Mae West : "Why don't you come up and see me some time?"
69
I only ever asked one man out.
He had had a crush on me, but I had been dating his roommate until recently.
And now I have been married to him for 13 years, together for 18. Two daughters.
Worked for me...
8
What does it say about him that he failed to note your interest leading to him failing to uphold the make end of the bargain. He might well be a nice guy but women shouldn’t have to expose themselves to rejection because so many males are clueless. They don’t know which women to approach and which ones not to.
I agree, but women have always told us when they are interested in us. They just tell us in code.
Here's how I've handled it, and with some success.
I announce 'I'm going to kiss you now' and wait five full seconds. Time enough to say no, protest, discuss, scream, call for the police, or nudge away.
If none of these ensue, we can assume I've either stricken such terror into her heart that she is frozen into silence, or she does not mind.
Then I give the kiss itself another full five seconds to become enthusiastic. If not, no go.
No reason this cannot work for men and women of all ages.
3
So then, you express your male privilege then place the burden of denying your declaration on her? Yet another example of blatant misogyny.
4
I don't believe in chasing anyone, friends or lovers. The person who is meant to be in your life will meet you in the middle.
That being said, I am fully in favor of letting someone know you are interested in them. I remember reading trash like "The Rules" and cringing at all the machinations women were supposed to take in order to snare their man. Even my mother would constantly tell me that I wasn't "coy" enough. I never really understood what that involved, nor was I interested in finding out. I was (and am) a forthright, what-you-see-is-what-you-get kind of gal, and the man for me had to be someone who wanted that in his gal. (And He does.)
I will admit that I haven't gone so far as to propose, as I suppose there is a part of me that still would like the initiative (and maybe a pretty ring?) to come from him. However, these days we talk about marriage quite a bit so it's definitely on the table. Luckily, I'm in no hurry...
8
"Women are not supposed to show their desire or love" stuff is a deeply ingrained trait of this monotheistic civilization (Judeo-Christian-Muslim). In many polytheistic societies of Ancient times, women were free and sex and nudity were not tabu
5
I guess there are other ways of expressing and showing what you want than just being blunt about it. It's called flirting. Lost art in America. Flirting actually allows the woman to show her interest without being too obvious and does not deprive the man from the "thrill of the chase" if he's interested. Dust off your French novels, plebs.
8
as a guy it seems to me that very attractive women tend to appear aloof with bitchface in an attempt to repel the continuous stream of too-many approaches from men they don't desire, seeking to minimise eye contact from strangers, etc.
unattractive women can be the opposite, trying too hard to attract male attention - example being the too-loud laughter I frequently hear when such are nearby - I turn and look - ah no thanks.
the old model - testing a man by letting him chase you - or the Chinese model - publicly throwing a hissy fit to see if he will ingratiate himself on his knees - if so, ah, that means he loves me (and will do anything for me - win)!
my current partner followed me out of a room with gleaming eyes - I looked like her father - she showed her interest on first meeting - and nearly 30 years later we're still together - and happy everyday.
3
But you're still looking, appraising, and judging. No wonder you're happy; you have it both ways.
4
I'm myself somewhat shy when it comes to asking a girl on a date or making the first move. Because of this, part of me thought, "well, in today's society, women should have an equal obligation/opportunity to ask the guy on the date!" But when I asked my girl friends about this, they disagreed. They felt that it's not completely symmetrical. When a girl finds out a guy is hitting on them, they're flattered and more likely to find him appealing. When a guy finds out a girl is hitting on them, it doesn't make them think of the girl any better. And they claimed that this isn't just a product of the times but that it will always be that way.
4
Women are free now, in the West. Free to say no, as firmly as they wish. But taking the initiative means maintaining the initiative even to the point of proposing - and possibly thereafter, generating quiet dissatisfaction. Also, being turned down won't sit well with many of them since there is no cultural rubric which covers this outcome for them. Caveat emptor.
4
If You Like a Guy, Tell Him. Only Then Will Women Be Foolish.
@Nreb
Everybody plays the fool, baby.
2
It would be nice if women were given as much leeway to initiate a relationship as men. When you always rely on men to make the first move, you inevitably end up favoring those men who are the least self-conscious (and likely the least self-reflective), rather than those who are more mindful of a woman's personal space.
6
Those men should always be mindful. And why should women face rejection by men which only propagates more male privilege?
1
So many accounts of heartbreak and missed opportunities on such a dreary autumn day. It seems that we do indeed lead our lives in quiet desperation.
5
When I got divorced at 40, I thought dating protocols would be different than when I was married at 25, but it came as a shock to find that women still waited for the man to initiate. Even my wife of 15 years now waited patiently for 9 months while I worked up the nerve to ask her out. I think most men will say that the risk of rejection has prevented them from asking someone out at least once, and would appreciate getting some clearer signals. Viva Sadie Hawkins!
5
So many accounts of heartbreak and missed opportunities on such a dreary autumn day. I’m many ways we do indeed lead our lives in quiet desperation.
4
I met my ex-husband when I made the first move. I noticed him, and went after him. I got his number, made the first call, pursued him. I am the one who moved in for the first kiss, and our first night together. It is really an empowering experience. I highly recommend it.
5
@Sarah
Was that guy Darryl Hall or John Oates? I've always wondered. They're both credited with begging you to stay until tomorrow, so it's hard for the casual observer to tell. To be honest, I always sort of assumed that you smiled, laughed and stayed, but life takes unexpected twists and turns, I guess. And whomever it was, he was quite explicit in stating that if you wanted to be free, all you had to do was say so. Guy has no one to blame but himself.
5
So, who made the first move on the divorce?!
10
@FWS
Good question.
1
Perhaps I was mature for my age, or just clueless about gender norms, but I never had any qualms asking boys and men out for dates. I asked my husband out for our first date.
If a guy ever had a problem with it, well, then I didn't want to date him anyway.
9
@Carrie
Men, of course, often feel the same way.
2
I think for a lot of women and girls, the opposite of this is the problem. For women and girls to be free they have to be able to tell a guy if they don't want him and for him to take no for an answer without threats or insults.
Too many guys take 'no' as a negotiation, an insult or a challenge. Boys and girls both need to be raised with the idea that no means no!
11
Guys should be savvy enough to know who and when not to approach a women so that women aren’t put in the position of having to say “no.” And any guy not savvy enough deserves whatever response the woman wishes to impose.
3
I don't know....having 2 kids in college right now, i'd say that the emphasis on having the guys take the reins is way bigger than it was when I was in college in the early 80s....have you all seen what guys must go through to 1) ask a girl to the prom and 2) ask a girl for marriage? There are becoming astonishingly elaborate undertakings that are documented in great detail on all social platforms. My oldest D is one smart cookie as are all of her friends but they 100% ooh and ahh over these proposals and expect one themselves.
6
I agree with Ms. Neuman's Sadie Hawkins rallying cry but disagree with her analysis. The convention of men making the first move and women communicating their desire with silly, codified hints does not persist because of the "mentality that allows men to believe that [women's] desire is their perogative" It persists because of a failure of feminism. Women can give Ms. Neuman the world she wants in the blink of an eye. All they have to do is start asking out the men they like. Nothing is stopping them. Not patriarchy, not female "disempowerment", not nothing. Ms. Neuman's claims that they will be collectively slut-shamed for doing so are baseless. If, after 50 years of robust second wave feminism which has given women considerable autonomy in the realms of work, gender, and sex, they can't find it in themselves to proclaim their desires to the objects of same, feminism is doing it wrong.
10
@Nick: I'm a woman. I'm in my 50s. I've asked men out many times. Each time is felt scary and vulnerable (similar to what most me likely feel), no one likes to be rejected, but I (and many other women) do it.
4
@Nick
Overall this may be an area where biology is indeed destiny.
3
Seconded.
2
What a great piece!! You perfectly outlined what I (and likely many females) do internalize...about how we feel we are 'supposed' to navigate potential romance with men...how we feel most comfortable doing so.... And indeed, I behave that way, I am very much of the total opposite mindset when it comes to marriage proposals.
I feel that if two grown people get to the point in their relationship where a discussion or outright marriage proposal would not be unexpected, that either party should simply suggest/propose marriage. I mean, how could you not already have a pretty darn good idea as to how the other party might respond? So why on earth, in this day and age, should women still feel they need to 'wait' for the man to propose, and even if it's simply to make the process 'formal'? It's positively stupefying to me.
I strongly suspect that certain shallow women are simply looking for something they can 'show off' to the rest of the world. Oh, there will be stories of 'how he proposed', the special day they had, and of course, The Ring. The Ring will be studied, by her equally shallow friends, and if quite large and glistening, will be followed-up with questions behind her back of 'do you know her fiance?...what does he DO?'. I really can't stomach the whole marriage proposal/ring thing. And don't even get me started on public proposals, which are all about men looking for attention and accolades.
9
I think your 'take' is right and just -- but if it 'takes hold,' it's a reason for me to be glad I'm 'pushin' 70 (since, if women freely undertake to tell a guy she 'likes' him, then --were I still young or even middle-age -- walking down the NYC streets, 'for me,' would ever be but an uninterrupted 'series' of interrupted 'constitutionals').
1
As much as I am a feminist, I believe that men undervalue women who deprive them of the chase. If he wants you, he will show it. If you chase him, he will never hold you in the highest regard. Sounds old-fashiomed, I know, but it holds true.
90
@Zydeco Girl THANK YOU!!! I am so deeply upset by this piece.
10
@Zydeco Girl You're right.
10
@Zydeco Girl "...I believe that men undervalue women who deprive them of the chase."
If there's any truth to this, it's simply because men have been trained over centuries that they are to be the pursuers, not the pursued. The entire point of the article was to change this silly, antiquated notion that women must wait passively for a man to approach them.
111
A wonderful piece, nicely written, and here's to women who meet men at least halfway and not leave the fumbling up to us.
6
I remember being in 7th grade and they had a Sadie Hawkins Day dance. I was totally shocked when one of the prettiest girls in class chose me. Turns out it was not romance but because she had always thought I was a "friend"; that is, not her "boyfriend". Still it was very nice to be her date that day.
Starting in those early years I learned the vagaries of communications between the sexes, which are not exact, but for me at least, it got easier and easier to know who was interested in me and who was not.
My wife of 42 years knew just how to smile at me across the room to get my attention, which she did. After that, well, I kissed her first, but marriage was something we discussed for some years and so when I did do the traditional down on the knee here is your ring, it was not a surprise but a mutual understanding.
Still, even after marriage it has been a process to be transparent with each other, but the more transparent we have been, the better our relationship has been.
So, for those women thinking of asking a fellow out, I say why not, but, look for the signals that he is interested in you first. No need to set yourself up for disappointment if you can avoid it.
Hint: As a man, women that smile at me often and compliment me are usually interested. If the guy returns your attention then you may have found a match.
Best of luck.
7
As a man, I like this article. Thanks. However ... the basic problem is that a man wants a woman to be his and his alone. If a woman comes on to him in no uncertain terms, he has no way to be sure she’s not doing the same with other guys. I think this is why our culture has never promoted the idea that Sadie Hawkins Day ought to be every day.
4
@Eric P. Stewart:
A woman wants a man to be hers and hers alone. If a man comes on to her in no uncertain terms, she has no way to be sure he’s not doing the same with other gals.
17
@Eric P. Stewart A woman doesn't know if a man is chasing other women as he comes on to her. Are you inferring that this woman is loose while men are serial monogamists as they play the field? Not in my experience.
7
@Eric P. Stewart
Grown ups accept that other grown ups have relationships - and yes - even sex! with other people.
4
I have been depressed all day since reading this. I disagree completely. The way to take power from men is to give them no information.
3
I just love how this immense slab of salvation-laden common sense has popped out of nowhere at a time where sense of any kind has all but left the production.
When I was a sex-starved teenaged idiot, I was so mortified of girls my age I could only speak to a few in anything approaching complete sentences. It was the main reason I became a youthful supporter of women's lib; the girls would come to my arms as soon as Helen Reddy finished singing I Am Woman.
I waited. I even told people I thought feminism was gonna be great for humanity. But the oncoming tsunami of femininity I expected ended up being more of a moisture particle. To me, telling a girl you liked her seemed as dangerous as walking around with a 'kick me' sign taped to your gluteus.
It wasn't until I was about 16 that my sister's best friend stayed in my bedroom after my sister went to bed, post-reefer, and made clear she was keen, that I knew what a non-printed boob looked like (it looked spectacular, by the way).
A good end to this story is that she went on to found the first feminist theatre company anyone had heard of and has since gone on to get what she wanted out of life in a way I've seen few other female friends from that era do.
So this stuff works.
Tell your daughters. And your sons.
10
Maddeningly heteronormative, especially the headline. This is not what I want to read--not in the Times, not anywhere. Women's freedom all wrapped up in liking guys? Not so free, if you ask me. That's all the farther you can get to freedom?. Impoverished. Depressing.
2
Well, there are actually a few women left who like men. Seems to me that they might like to see their issues and desires addressed in the NYT once in a while.
16
Our President says you can do anything you want if you're famous.
4
As the mother of two millennial-age sons, I found this article absurd. My sons tell me quite often how women they meet are calling the shots...everything from if they will text them again, to demanding men become acquainted early on with their young kids from a prior relationship or marriage, to telling a man what she wants and expects from a relationship... usually right away since everyone meets through dating apps.
7
@writer11 Great! Men have been calling the shots for thousands of years. Just tell your boys that they should reject all women who insist on them meeting their kids, or who want to communicate about their relationship expectations. Probably leaves them with a pool of traditional women who still want their men to call all the shots. They should check out the evangelical churches and communities with lower education rates. Women with lower self-esteem, ambition or goals might also be interested, and your boys will be able to chase them.
5
I'm not super into patriarchy, but I've come to think that the reason the guy is the one to make the moves is because a girlfriend is a responsibility. In the beginning, the guy pays for dates. After marriage, since the woman usually wants to be the primary caretaker of the children, the guy usually ends up being the primary "provider". Since I'm asking a guy to take me on as a responsibility, I need to convince him I'm desirable and he will decide to take me on or not. A lot of guys like it when women are assertive, they find it a big turn on. But ultimately, if he's going to be the primary provider (not the "sole" provider by any means), he will probably have a modicum (but not necessarily a lot) more control and decision making power than I will.
3
@Jennifer884 I have a real issue with the term 'responsibility', as it almost equate a wife with a child, ergo as 'possessions' and where the man rules unquestioningly. Also, in instances where one partner (whether man or woman) decides to be the primary (stay at home) caretake of children, while the other agrees to be the primary financial provider, I do not think that the financial provider (male or female) automatically merits more control/decision-making. Both roles in the family are equally important and valuable, and a family could not survive without both parties doing their parts.
3
I'm sure Heidi Cruz saw it that way. And now here she is, forced into the role of principal breadwinner because her husband keeps taking jobs that don't pay enough. It's not right that he shirk his responsibilities and deprive his beautiful daughters of the second house they richly deserve.
So I voted for Beto.
I tried, Heidi.
6
A woman should pay for her drinks, her food, her vacation..,We work, we are independent why should the guy pay systematically? I am married and even now, I still refuse that my husband pays for everything. Sure, he makes more than me: so when I treat it is not a super fancy restaurant but hey, it reminds us of our youth:)
Thanks, we all needed that.
Whatever ones views on the motivations of men who act abusively, the formation of a powerful counter-type of female empowerment would be good for everyone.
It provides an example of what men should be like, not subservient as men have often made it with the tables as they were in the past, but willing to engage as equals.
For women, it would be a powerful message that whatever they choose to do, it needs to be their choice, not picked from a short-list of a few bad options. And that choice needs to be respected.
For those elsewhere along the gender panorama, it's a strong suggestion that whatever your choice, it would likely be better served by thinking outside of the gender-binary boxes that LGBT culture so often falls back into when it becomes abusive.
We've all got to co-exist and most of us want a loving relationship. We'll be better served by the power of choice than the limits of strictly defined relationship roles that have long outlived whatever use they had in the past.
4
I'm surprised the dating app, Bumble, wasn't referenced here. The entire concept is that only girls are able to initiative conversations. The boys simply swipe and wait.
As a guy, it feels a little powerless not being able to send that message first. But I also find it's a relief not to have the responsibility to always send the first message, or the doubt when you decide not to send a message at all.
5
This is brilliant. Part of women becoming as fully self-actualized as men get to be is that we should get to feel the sting of rejection without it being any more humiliating for us than for them. I think women are socialized to feel more shame about being rejected when we make a romantic overture to a man because it's assumed it took us tons and tons of courage to get up the nerve to ask the guy out. If we did it as much as they did and it were no big deal to do so, we could rewrite that script for good. And maybe we'd also get more of what we want because we wouldn't be waiting around for Prince Charming but rather in charge of our own destinies. What a concept.
6
I am a man in my mid 30s and I couldn't agree more. I never liked having to read clues and signals and then take the leap of asking a woman out based on my interpretations of what might or might not be signals. Especially as a teenager, young and still inexperienced in reading people, I found it excruciating and scary.
Furthermore I imagine many unwanted advances are the result of this kind of bad people-reading. I'd be even more afraid to mess up and ask out someone who wasn't interested today for fear of it being taken badly. Of course part of this is learning how to ask a question without assuming the answer will be yes or acting like a pig. In any case I know I always welcomed when a woman was direct about her interest in me. Take the guessing out of it!
6
I like this article very much because it shows that we are getting past the answers, no and yes, and starting to talk about the questions.
6
Twenty years ago, I was a freshman in college and madly in love with a girl who didn't seem interested. Then, one night, she leaned over and kissed me because she was sick and tired of waiting for me to make the first move. Today we've been married for 14 years and have 3 kids.
I am forever grateful she didn't just keep waiting.
294
That's a wonderful and heart-warming story @Matt N.
Sadly, I don't think it can work that way anymore, at least not for men at college or university.
For a man, leaning over and kissing a female crush without explicit verbal consent can result in a Title IX adjudication and expulsion from school.
16
@Andrew: Oh, jeeze, Andrew. You can say, May I kiss you? If the woman wants it, she'll say yes. If she says no, then no 'expulsion.' Tired of this male hyperbole.
56
Exactly my point, @Anne.
Perhaps you should take the time to read Matt's story. No consent was sought and none was given.
According to the post #metoo rules, that's no longer permissible. For men.
19
I was so insecure as a teenage boy that I was shy, to the point of paralyzes, around girls. Having kept some of those girls as old friends and hearing from others at reunions, I can say, if all the girls who have told me, since, that they were waiting for me to make the first move then, I would be a completely different man today.
5
Funny this article showed up today. Early this morning, I just told a man who I'm hoping will be my boyfriend that I want him. Plain and simple. And I feel good about that. I think he does too. I agree, there is so much freedom in expressing how I genuinely feel and what I want in life. There's a lot of talk around men's great fear of rejection. Women fear rejection just as much as men. Personally, I prefer to know sooner rather than later if a man only has tepid feelings for me. Expressing my desire for a man is part of creating a vibrant relationship.
11
I'm old enough to assume that everybody was familiar with Al Capp's "Lil Abner" and the annual week of Sadie Hawkins Day strips. As I recall, that's how Daisy Mae cornered Lil Abner. That, or he chased her until he had her right where she wanted him.
When I was in grade school (about 4th and 5th) it was standard practice for both boys and girls to make lists of their favorite classmates (numbered in the rank of "liking") of the opposite sex. These lists of course were hot commodities, swiped from their owners and traded to another classmate (again, usually of the opposite sex) for another's list of who was hot for whom. Another tactic was for one girl to ask a guy if he liked so and so, the blatant object being to hook them up, in a more innocent meaning of the word.
Later, in junior and senior high, there would be "ladies choice" dances, a low key form of Sadie Hawkins chases, where the girls got the chance to try to pick off another young woman's steady. We never had a full bore Sadie Hawkins dance, though, where the boy had no choice but to accept the first girl who asked for his companionship at the dance and was then expected to be "true" the whole evening.
An interesting statistic would be the average duration of the marriages/long term relationships of girl-asks-boy couplings versus those of the more conventional method. Surely that study is out there somewhere.
2
Sadie Hawkins Day is something that should happen whenever the desire strikes. Life is short and fickle, and the mystery dance of relationships is hard enough for anyone. Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow, but taking that first step shouldn't matter if you are a man or a woman, just dance.
7
My 20 year old son attends a university where progressive politics reign. Apparently, the culture there expects students to hold each other "accountable" (quoting from a school publication).
And yet, there doesn't seem to be anything progressive, or even different, from the traditional indirect approach by women towards men.
4
Thank you so much for this essay. Its message can't be repeated often enough. To me it has always been part of mature owning of one's sexuality to be able to admit frankly to having desires and maybe even "wanting it." When we mean "yes," we need to say "yes" as unequivocally as we need to say "no." Doing less is both juvenile and unfair.
Surely it would be a breath of fresh air in the "me too" era for a guy to be approached rather than having to make all the advances while fearing that they will be taken the wrong way. Taking the risk of rejection might also give some women a bit more compassion for what men go through when they take that risk.
4
This is not, I think, a one size fits all question. Some people are comfortable expressing their desires, others are not. Some people have the charisma to attract desire, some do not. Some, I am sure, do not know what they want, or if they do, how to articulate it to themselves or others. Childhood education both expressed and by examples has a great deal to do with what we, as adults, feel what exactly we should be and express as a man or as a woman. Culture changes slowly, and self-knowledge is sometimes denied us until late in life, if at all. I remember a bumper sticker from the sixties that read: "Sex is like credit, some get it, some don't." Ditto enlightenment.
8
@michaeltide
Dear Michaeltide,
This is a very wise comment. The complexities of human communication are often difficult to navigate and if you throw in something as emotional as your heart, ego and desire for love, no one can truly "know" how best to achieve a happy result.
I do think Jesus said it best, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Cheers.
3
“They cling to their own disempowerment and call it romance.”
Very well said.
10
Perhaps if women were more courageous and honest about their desires for love and sex - and stopped being passive about it - men would be less confused about what women want and there would be no need for the "metoo" movement.
I cannot remember any woman who has instigated sex. Much easier to leave it up to the man...
Men have to take all the risks in relationships, and there are no guidelines.
8
@Sam Kanter I think the problem is that in America women who have been honest about their desires for love and sex, and have expressed them, have been labeled as sluts and whores by men, while men are considered studs instead of sluts. The Europeans are much more egalitarian about love and desire between the sexes.
5
As long as men and women each have ways to express themselves — as they do now — then honest communication is possible. Yet in many cases this is very difficult! Yet, things aren't really so bad.
Men many times have to approach many women before finding someone who responds positively. Women often have to convey their interest subtly lest they be considered unduly eager.
Men may not appreciate how hard it is for a woman to express herself without being explicit. By the same token, Women may not appreciate the difficulty of having to risk rejection over and over again before getting a positive response.
In conclusion: Be careful what you wish for!
3
Well, good luck with this Sadie Hawkins fantasy. I'm single and have found that expressing even a gentle interest in a man -- or even suggesting things to do -- turns him off. They want to pursue. Sorry if this is an old-fashioned viewpoint; it comes from experience.
15
I am a shy guy. Never liked the burden of always having to ask. I get asked out a lot and was grateful. I was glad that "she wanted it" and had the guts to let me know. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this.
7
While I fully agree that women should take more of the initiative, the mixed messages in this article are quite scary. For example:
"until heterosexual women no longer feel the need to wait for the man to propose or to invite us to the prom or to kiss us on a beautiful summer evening when we want to kiss'
With regard to that Kiss, better get consent first or it could be construed as assault and will definitely be a showstopper if you're pursuing a political career. Just saying as a guy....
7
Half the fun is flirting which I loved and then I have always been in love with being in love.
There were a few times I took the initiative and sometimes I was right but most times the flirty guy backed off as he was married, or not interested really, or was living with someone, or he just wanted to see if I was interested as in keeping his own scorecard.
Scorecards never go out of style with the males and not as long as they have their male egos to deal with. Females don't really do scorecards or at least this female never did.
Sadie Hawkins day! I had completely forgotten about that 'holiday' and thanks for the comic reminder!
6
From the author's hints, I assume she is sixty-something, and so her discussion of her generation's cultural norms around dating might be, well, dated. She lightly indicates toward the end of the piece that nothing much has changed since her day, but I think her analysis might not be as relevant today as a younger person's - unless she had shared with us some concrete research details. Disappointing.
2
Yes. This sort of proactive agency is part of authentic feminism.
4
A young woman I worked with once said that she liked a guy but was disappointed that he hadn't asked her out. I said: Why don't you ask him out. She recoiled in horror saying: Oh, I could never do that -- I'd be too afraid. My response to her was: Well now you know how men feel all the time! It's nerve-wracking asking a woman out but we do it because we're expected to. It's almost 2019. Women are rightfully striving for equal pay and acceptance in the workplace. It's long past time that the majority of women accept the equal responsibility in dating by asking men out, buying flowers, buying drinks, and offering to buy dinner on a date. Women are not the weaker sex. It's time we stopped acting that way.
6
@BrianBlank And would you find that attractive in a woman? I venture to say you would not.
I obviously can't speak for Brian, but I can say that I'd be absolutely thrilled and flattered if a woman asked me out.
Give the glacial pace of cultural change, I doubt it'll even happen but it would be wonderful to know somebody actually found me desirable.
Isn't it interesting that men and women are actually a lot alike.
8
@BrianBlank
There’s a very good chance she wasn’t just afraid of being rejected, but also afraid of the horrible labels given to women who dare acknowledge their interest and do something other than wait around. Women have been forever expected to act like less-thans waiting quietly for what men want. To a lot of traditional people, a woman who admits to wanting someone is a who*re and faces serious indignity. Probably will face pressure to marry the next guy who will have her. So while both genders face risk in taking the first step, it’s not the same risk.
Puritans don’t mind when guys are bold. They hate when women dare. Puritans still rule much of the world.
(Also people who play games are not worth it. Someone says no? Walk away. I think if someone chooses to play the game, they can’t complain when the results are miserable. My husband of going-on-7-years is of the same mind, which is perfect and dignifying.)
Heartily agree and I'd add that women should feel more free to make definitive statements of disinterest when that is the case. If a man (or woman) asks you out or otherwise declares his/her interest and it isn't reciprocated, then clearly say so. It may seem like being tactful to the point of ambiguity is the "nice" thing to do but ultimately it just complicates things and frequently ends up hurting someone's feelings even more.
3
Thank you thank you for this! This is an example of true feminism at work, where women have true social equality to men as opposed to adhering to antiquated notions of dating and romance.
3
I somehow ended up with a scientist who has never been reticent about her intentions. We were in bed by the second date, she was quite specific about when she wanted to become pregnant, and our children are three years and three days apart; not too pregnant in the winter, not pregnant at all in the hot summer, they're both early May babies. I was lucky in that I managed to produce a boy and a girl, not an easy specification.
At one point our oldest was doing adult play (non-sexual) with her 5 year old boyfriend and explained that Dad goes to work and Mom goes to grad school. She's an attorney now, an outcome that was never in doubt.
That all started 40 years ago, I don't have the impression that women are as exploited as some of them think they are.
10
I absolutely agree that women should make more of an effort to express their interests, but telling somebody directly only works if the other person is already 100% certain of their interest—any less, and it kills the chance. A kiss can be much more convincing, but it’s essentially become taboo in the last decade or so, with retroactive repercussions for some. Still, as a man who has been kissed by women I didn’t really want to kiss, I still think women can and should risk it (even if the men had better not).
3
The ability to say no to someone gives that person power over the other person. Your thesis probably resonates with the sympathetic ears of men who have lost economic and financial power to women, and perhaps to the women who have gained it. However, despite progress towards egalitarianism a considerable proportion of women still seek the traditional female roles of child rearing and homemaking. I suspect these types of women still like being pursed because it compensates for the loss of economic and financial power.
2
@C. M. Jones I wouldn’t suspect so. Raising children and making a functioning home is empowering and dignifiny and honourable to the person who wants to do it.
This obsession with power dynamics is exactly where we go wrong. I have power over him because I said yes, and he has power over me because I’d be a destitute single mother without him and I’m stuck in this life? He has economic power, I have emotional power? He felt insecure about me possibly saying no and I feel insecure that I rely on him materially? That’s the logical conclusion you probably didn’t intend.
There is surely another way for adults to have a mutually enjoyable life together. Maybe even with children (?) If you replace power with love and respect you’re closer to the goal. Well, my goal.
Several years ago a woman I had been in a relationship with for many years and I broke up because, well, the relationship just wasn't progressing. Both divorced, both around 60 at the time, I badly wanted to get her to commit because we both knew we were very much in love. But she kept demurring for what I figured out was insecurity, and I finally gave up, reluctantly. Several months later I met a wonderful woman and we began dating. Six months later I asked her to marry me, and seven months after that we were (and remain after 6 years) very happily married. Three months after I met this woman, my original girlfriend called me up out of the blue, told me she had made a terrible mistake, and would I marry her? I was stunned, but not so much that I didn't tell her she was too late because I had moved on. Bottom line: I didn't hesitate to ask the woman who is my current wife to marry me when I knew it was right; my former girlfriend waited and blew it. How much of that was due to adherence to traditional male-female role definitions? I believe a lot. Ladies -- please, go for it if it feels right.
7
@bozoonthebus She played a game and lost, you refused to play, took relationships seriously, and won.
So, guys who complain about not knowing if a woman really means “no,” take her word for it, walk away, let her pout, you’re not missing much.
But change seems slow in coming. Stories of heterosexual marriage proposals usually still feature the man asking and the woman thrilled to be asked. Marriage is one of the most serious decisions in a person's life, and it should be made by both parties. Yet women in our society actually relish handing over all the decision-making ability to men. LISTEN UP CORPORATE AMERICA: stop wondering why you have trouble retaining women in leadership roles and start looking at the cause! There will be no true equality for women until women stop handing the power to men in one of the most important decisions of their lives!
2
Well said. I despise stories about women waiting for their boyfriends to "pop the question". Marriage proposals, and yes, date invitations, should be initiated by either gender. The pressure we put on men to do the asking, the initiating, must, in my opinion, cause them intense stress.
Don't get me started on the outdated custom of women changing their surnames to that of the man they marry. Talk about women being the property of men!
3
There is this one woman I see from afar at social occasions that for some reason I can not explain I wanted to be with.
I have tried to speak to her with no success.
I felt that everything I said was just ignored or worse was being disparaged.
Instead of trying to pursue her I backed off.
I am a little bit insecure.
I let my insecurities control me.
You would never think this as I do have confidence
I will see a woman on the train a attractive woman who I will never see again.
I have no problem approaching her and will start a conversation.
I do this well as I listen and because I am smart and can talk about every possible subject there is.
I can't do this with women I know.
There are times you want things from afar but discover
when you get closer it was just wishful thinking.
I recently was with her at a occasion where she had to speak to me (in a car ) where I tried to talk about politics.
Not to her but to someone else in the car.
She told me to stop as what I was saying didn't interest her.
If I wasn't in a car I would have left the room.
Eventually we did find something to speak about.
I discovered that we did get and along and that she is even better close up.
.It was my insecurities that got in the way and stopped us from becoming friends.
I think there are many men who are like this.
If women took the initiative she can form a relationship with a man she likes who lacks the confidence to approach her.
1
As a heterosexual man I heartily agree with the author. If women adopted her integrity about her feelings, they would discover why it is so hard for men to have that integrity. They would discover why men are shy and fear rejection.
I suspect, that like me, there are a lot of guys out there that are oblivious to a woman's interest in us.
So please ladies - do let us know. The worse that you can experience is rejection - and then the equation will truly be equal, as we men have too often experienced rejection as well.
Or - there's the chance that your interest WILL be reciprocated. Wouldn't that be a thing?!?
6
Whenever I see a marriage proposal, I roll my eyes. The implication that the woman is waiting around, hoping that her boyfriend will ask her to get married, is absurd. Isn't it a mutual decision? Haven't they decided together? To me, if one is waiting for the other to ask, that's a bad beginning, putting one of the couple into a lesser position -- not a marriage of equals.
3
I am a woman in her eighties. I cannot believe that the world has changed so little that we still need articles like this one in 2018. Sad.
7
@Dolores Kazanjian
Believe it. And it's not All sad - cause it's changing - partly because of articles like this.
4
I remember Valentines Day celebrations in elementary school. They were always highly anticipated and celebrated by the girls and not so much by the boys. Valentines was very much like Sadie Hawkins Day where the girls felt less inhibition in letting their crushes know their true feelings. Most of us boys were the opposite, painfully shy and always embarrassed to be on the receiving end of a colorful makeshift Valentines Day card filled with X's and hearing the giggles from the sender's friends.
That shyness never quite went away completely for me when I became an adult. I remember my sister telling me, "She likes you, go ahead and ask her out you dope!". But for us introverts it has never been easy. I think I can safely say that on this point I speak on behalf of many men
8
How I used to wish that girls and women only would. I hated the guessing game. getting rejected made me feel like a cad, finding out years later other women I liked just as much liked me too, but I was too insecure to ask for fear of offending someone I liked with my attention. I finally got up the nerve with a wonderful woman and it all turned out all right, but it sure would have been better to me when I was younger if women were more forthright. I think a lot of us guys are just straight up chickens. so, go girls, go.
11
Most guys are more than happy to have a women make the first move. I know I always was. And even as a happily married man almost a decade in, I am more than thrilled when my wife decides she wants to seduce me instead of me having to set the scene, so to speak.
9
The author misses the subtleties and complexities of the topic. In characterizing the "girls do not ask boys" paradigm as an example of patriarchal power, she evidently has no idea of the great power than women have in rejecting men's romantic initiatives, as well as the stress, fear, and anxiety that boys, and men, experience in having the burden always placed on them to make the first move. Coming from a poor working class background, I know only too well how risky, intimidating, and potentially embarrassing it was to invite a girl on a date when I did not have a car and little money (the boys always pay, right?) to invite her somewhere "nice."
No, Neuman, the paradigm is not just about how women "leave ourselves at the mercy of men's desires."
How I wish the NY times would at least once in a while publish essays that show at least a little more insight into contemporary gender issues.
9
" After all, what worse insult can a man give a woman than “She wanted it,” a phrase that carries its own sneer."
"She wanted it " Is not an "insult", and is not "a phrase that carries it's own sneer."
"She wanted it " is a phase used by those who sexually assault women, by their defenders, defense attorneys and members of the "She deserved to be raped or otherwise sexually assaulted" club because "She wanted it."
I am a survivor of sexual assault, who is trying to recover from the re-triggering caused by the coverage of Dr. Blasey Ford's allegations against then Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh.
I'd thought I was safe reading an article entitled :"If you like a Guy, Tell Him. Only Then will Women be Free."
Not only was I wrong, but find the author's mischaracterization of the phrase "She wanted it"to be extremely distressing, in and of itself.
1
This essay leaves out another aspect of this ingrained cultural dance: Men may be being cast as the "aggressor," but they are in fact the vulnerable ones here. Young women are given the power to reject, while young men are being tested for their ability to overcome their fear of rejection in order to ask a girl out. It's an emotional test young men are supposed to learn how to handle, and the ability to get the most attractive girl to go out with you is some kind of measure of one's masculinity as well as attractiveness.
While women are well aware of how vulnerable they would feel having to be the one to ask, they dismiss or downplay the idea that young men might feel the same way. In fact, both sexes do. It's just the way things are done, and the difficulty of asking a girl out is a secret source of shame that everyone knows about but no one ever wants to talk about; it's just something an adolescent boy is supposed to "get over" if he's going to become a man.
This system rewards a certain amount of callousness and insensitivity. One has to convince oneself that you just don't care that much if she says "no," even though that clearly means that she either doesn't like you or you don't measure up. It's fairly easy to see how this attitude can progress into objectification of women and unwelcome pursuit.
Women -- and men -- will be far more free when young men stop learning that they must become great at asking girls out in order to be a man.
5
Every time I heard that incredibly grating and needy song by Vicky Carr “Let it Please Be Him” (1967) or any of those other songs with desperate women waiting for the guy to call them, I always wanted to scream for them to just pick up the phone and dial the number because anything would be better than staring at the phone. I sure hope there’s more equality in phoning and texting now!
5
We are at the mercy of men's desires because they have economic power.
Until women's economic power can equal men's, because of equal pay and equal opportunities, it will never be Sadie Hawkins day.
You are too young, still, and too much aided by your attractiveness, to understand.
4
@MAmom2 Yes!
The idea that asking the opposite sex out is a privilege that women should also enjoy is bizarre. The first time you do it, its preceded by a week of anxiety and obsessive sensitivity to the girl's every movement, who she is talking to, where she is looking, etc. The first girl usually says yes because at that age it doesn't really mean anything. After that, as you start to get more comfortable, the high rejection rate keeps you scared. Many boys end up holding women in lower esteem as a self-defense mechanism. Like a salesman, you have to learn not to be affected by rejection, and that means learning not to care too much about any particular sale.
The whole thing is terrifying and the only reason boys did it was because the alternative was never having a girlfriend. Now that we can use apps to hook up, boys aren't even doing it anymore. Even without apps, I can assure you that if boys thought they could get a girlfriend by passively waiting for someone to come to them, they would never get over the hump, and the result would be passivity and enormous stress on both sides. I think that is pretty much happening right now.
Despite the fact that I hated asking girls out in the beginning, and was rejected a lot, I feel that those social customs made me stronger and more confident in the long run. I was forced to recognize my appeal to others for what it was, and once I did, the irony was that it made me much more attractive to women. I suspect the same is true for girls.
7
We need a full 180 degree turn on who initiates romantic and/or sexual relations in this society.
After all, it is the woman who typically chooses anyway.
We could rid ourselves of all the unwanted come-ons and greatly reduce mixed-signal consent issues.
4
I find it difficult to read a woman when she stares at me. I can't perceive if she's angry or if she's attracted to me.
3
Here we go again blaming women and asking women to fix it with no mention of how men contribute to the dynamic or how men can fix it. The reason women don't ask men out is because toxic masculine norms cause those women to be devalued among men's peers. Remember, in the game of patriarchy, women aren't the other team, they're the ball.
8
I always thought it unfair for both sexes that men were always to take the initiative. Sharing the fear of rejection will make us all more even and relaxed when we interact with the other sex.
4
Our conditioned passivity leaves a vacuum that male narcissism fills with its version of us. It also breeds hyper-aggression on behalf of the men which leads to harassment and assault. The act of pursuit is an aggressive act. The more aggressive men are rewarded, the less aggressive men are punished.
2
When women give up high heels and makeup, then they are free. Other than that they are objects to view. That will be true equality.
7
My son is shy, but seems to get "selected" a fair amount by young women who don't want to deal with the usual cultural nonsense. It works as well for him as it does for them, or so it would seem.
1
I am a 63 year old married 32 years with 2 girls doing great in health care. Just retired and still playing basketball and tennis as I have for 50 years, pretty solvent and community involved. 6'2", 220 lbs, bald(sigh). I have never had a women tell me they liked me, not even my wife (of course she says "love" but never like). It is not in woman's DNA. Did I ever say it to anyone, yes but I wish I did it more I guess. Why don't we? Your guess is as good as mine. When I watch ww2 era movies the women are always telling each other how crazy they are for "Joe" or "Tom", the men say the same (and even say it before being rebuffed). Life is so confusing. Oh well
4
I'm sorry to read that this is still a problem for so many women.
Hear, hear.
“If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun.” -- Katharine Hepburn
I'm all for fun. So please go for it, people of all genders!
3
Ms. Hawkins,
Have you entertained the possibility that women obtain much of their power in relationships from acting as though they are less in need of sex than men? There are a couple hundred thousand years or more of evolution behind our sexual relationships. We are not just social constructs in the mating game. There is alot more going on than this article touches.Male pursuit of females and their coyness is everywhere to be seen, in fish, lizards, birds, etc. Female choice among multiple suitors is a cornerstone of much of vertebrate biology.
RBS
3
In the 1950s, Baylor University had an annual "Corrigan Weekend," a “wrong-way” dating event, during which, females asked males out, made plans, picked the guys up, and paid for everything. It took the onus off who asked whom out.
1
How does it benefit women if men are put into an even stronger position of male privilege when the woman is now subject to a man’s rejection? Making the gesture of approaching a man with the possibility of a “no” response is done sort of twisted reverse empowerment. Men should be the ones who take the risk while being sure they’re not approaching a woman who doesn’t them to even look her way.
1
@From Where I Sit THIS!!!
1
And since it was Baylor, there was no question about who led on the dance floor.
"Our conditioned passivity leaves a vacuum that male narcissism fills with its version of us."
I know this is opinion and all, but, say what?
2
I'm old enough (at 78) to remember reading Al Capp's cartoon strip "Lil Abner" where Daisy Mae was in endless pursuit of the big, gangly handsome, but introverted, title character. Of course, they lived in Dogpatch, a put down of Appalachia and the land of the schmoos and Lower Slobovia. And, of course, Daisy never did capture her man on Sadie Hawkins day. It was, by no means, a women's lib story, but just another portrayal of bimbos in the era of Playboy and the male patriarchy. Before impetuously rushing into a relationship that may only be an illusory projection, I'd first recommend asking my friend and former colleague, Art Aron's, 36 questions. At that point, it should be very clear whether or not you have gotten to "yes."
I, myself a bi/pansexual woman (I disclose my SO given, I have had experience on both ends) in a conservative society from Mexico, believe heterosexual women and men have SO MUCH to learn from the queer community.
In my opinion, I think one of the things is: letting the women be VOCAL towards their own desires and teaching men that women are people and have desires. And for desires I mean everything, from personal desires (dreams, goals), to asking out a guy on a date, to expressing sexual desire.
Life is too short for not telling the persons that we feel attracted to that we feel that way. What could go wrong?
100
@Ruth Armas
Agreeing with a book reco:
Carol Gilligan has written about the socialization that seems to cause many het women to lose touch with their voices (as described in the article): "In a Different Voice." She's also sponsored research by Judy Chu published as "When Boys Become Boys" about the socialization, typically the experience of being bullied, that brings forth the male mask of invulnerability and remoteness. (Both as over-simplifications here for brevity.)
@Ruth Armas
"Life is too short for not telling the persons that we feel attracted to that we feel that way. What could go wrong?"
What could go wrong?
Plenty, but I would never deprive you of the experience of learning just what could go wrong.
You will just have to find out for yourself.
2
Ms Neuman, You are absolutely correct. There is not a boy/man on the planet that would not a girl/woman to tell him that he is attractive to her.
2
What a straight, superb phrased piece, It's the basis of our - almost 50 - years marriage .....
I think this is a wonderful idea. My wife actually asked me out over 20 years ago, and I've always wondered why some men think it's "emasculating" to be asked out by a woman. I didn't. In fact, it was quite a relief, because I liked her, but I was too shy to act. I think so much of our misunderstandings and pain surrounding dating and courting revolve around this obsession with men taking the lead. Ladies, if you like a guy, ask him out. What have you got to lose? And if he's one of those few jerks who is offended, then he probably wasn't for you anyways.
2
“Tell him that you’re never gonna leave him, tell him that you’re always gonna love him, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell him right now.” Bert Berns
2
It would be nice to see more woman commenting on this.
1
For the sake of perspective why don’t we open the door wider on cultural assumptions in initiating romantic interest and ask our gay brothers and sisters how they manage this dance.
1
Regardless of who asks whom out, it must be remembered that women are the ones who must consent and therefore determine whether or not sexual relations take place
1
@John
Criminal law speaks fairly articulately about the consequences of not obtaining consent.
A positive viewpoint for today's romance.
1
Please.
Lord knows, I was just terrible at picking up any hints or signals, and with the wisdom of hindsight I still can't believe I was such an idiot. In my 60s and cursed with a phenomenal memory, I still kick myself over conversations that went by me.
Rescue me.
And don't forget the primary characteristic of teenage boys; the lack of confidence with girls. Even when I knew the situation I was likely to let it drop because I didn't dare believe it. Does she mean me? Really?
I'm happy to admit girls had the superior emotional maturity as teenagers. Fortunately, sort of, I frustrated a few so badly they did take the lead.
Much better that way. You know, you regret the things you didn't do.
3
I think the problem is often, at least from my point of view, that if a woman shows interest and attraction, that the male can assume that this means she wants immediate sex, even if she she says, "No, I like you, but not yet." Then if the man forces the issue, she feels stupid as though she asked for it. It's a lose-lose for the woman, because many men follow game-cues, and not semantics. That prospect is so scary that women can tend to wait and watch their "prey" in action. Is he kind and honorable or a typical liar like our powerful president? It's frustrating, but there's often good reasons for caution when dealing with someone twice your size whose words carry no meaning.
6
Whew, heterosexuality seems truly exhausting.
2
@MS Yes,it does! Bless my heterosexual brothers and sisters, your sex life seems really hard!
3
At age 71 I can look back at two marriages whose times seemed like eternity then and now. So much in my remembering was nonverbal from me and explicitly verbal from my spouse(s).
I'm sure there was at least half of their thoughts they wanted to say went unexpressed. But this is so true of many human interactions. Most times it is as difficult to talk truth to one another as it is to honestly understand when and what we are speaking to the soul.
These moments are the seeds of loneliness and should be shared whenever we can. Thank you for expressing that there is a possibility of equality between the sexes and it can be the generation of beauty and love.
2
What about if I like a guy and am a man? Will I be free too?
1
This reminds me of an incident at a conference maybe 30 years ago or more.
I ran into a woman who had been an undergraduate when I was a graduate student. She is very attractive, extremely bright and very pleasant.
A little chat turned into a deep discussion. She was unhappily married to a man who didn't want her to pursue her real dreams. I was stunned that she would put up with this. I told her that I always found her to be terrific. She said something like, well, why didn't you tell me this. So, she didn't do anything in a timely matter years before. And, I didn't do anything either. Two boneheads for the price of one, at least with respect to relationships. I regret to this day that I didn't tell her right then that she deserves so much better, get a divorce, and let's give it a try. I realize that this would have been asking a lot, but I should have acted. We both blew it!
Life is short. It never hurts to ask. And, this is one of the most important pieces written since the beginning of the #MeToo movement. It really completes the circle that desperately needs completion. And, now this has to be translated into actions by all parties, including fathers and mothers who still lay the old baloney on their daughters and sons.
177
@Underrepresented
You weren't clear about how you knew each other. If you were a graduate student, especially one teaching one of her classes, it wouldn't have been appropriate to have a relationship.
"It never hurts to ask."
Sometimes it does.
11
@Lifelong Reader
Thank you for your input. I was a research scientist in another department and had no professional interaction with her whatsoever. And, no action I could have taken would have had any impact on her future. We just happened to attend certain seminars that were of mutual interest due to the multi-disciplinary nature of research, even back then.
But, you raise an important point, esp. with regard to teaching assistants and the "power" position they may hold over students.
10
@Underrepresented
Go find her.
10
While I like this article's position in theory, I have to say the practice is very different. My best relationships were ones where the guys took the lead. The ones where I was more forward never went well. It seemed like if I was too forward, the guy was willing to go along only because it didn't seem like work, so why not, he might get laid out of it. Whereas when the guy had to actual put in some effort, it seemed like he took it more seriously.
Besides, part of the fun of flirting and dating are the subtle moves, messages, etc. Being so forward takes out some of the fun!
10
C'mon ladies, let freedom ring.
2
Amen, Amen, and AMEN!
1
Where were you when I was a geeky, tortured teenager?
2
Worth my yearly subscription. Thank you!
This is a huge topic. It seems joke-like, but its issues are at the core of gender inequality. It is, among other things, painful for anyone to stifle their desires.
My theory about why we still are where we are, after simple male power-grab is given its due: men really are the weaker gender. They need their egos, and their egos need constant stroking. But it’s the female urge to procreate that really tips the power scale. Some males are eager to be parents, but eager females far out-number them.
But we’re getting better! We’re figuring all this stuff out! I love this article!
1
Exactly.
1
As a tiny adolescent and university student, I was never shy about talking to girls. However I also seldom had the gumption to ask them out or come on to them in any way. Fortunately this was the late sixties when newly liberated young women tended to be the aggressors. Otherwise I might never had gotten laid. I learned a life lesson early on, which has always left me in good stead. When I am attracted to a woman, I give her interest, admiration and respect, then sit back and wait. If she is also interested she will generally let me know in one way or another. And that is the way it should be.
4
This unfortunately doesn't apply to women dating in New York City. The men (and women) are intelligent, ambitious, professionally successful, and they're well aware of their advantages. These men are used to going after and getting what they want, and dating is no exception. If he's interested, he'll make it obvious, and if you pursue him instead you're just making yourself one of his many undervalued options.
11
@Single Female
Really? Maybe you could try looking outside your tribe. You might be surprised by a construction worker who loves classical music enjoys museums and is a great cook with a fine hard body.
2
@Irene Goodnight
Sure, why not - what's his number?
5
@Single Female
Sorry, but I live in Santa Barbara so I don't have a number for you. I was just offering a solution that's worked really well for me. Joyously actually.
3
Bingo! I'm shy, and I'd never have ended up with a wedding ring on my finger had it not been for the fact that my wife knew what she wanted and wasn't afraid to go get it!
1
35 yrs. of marital bliss says dang women! if you want something let it be known.
Thank gosh my better half had the sense to stop me at the gym doors and invite me over to hot tub.
The image of her skipping back into the house after our quick peck good-bye as her father flicked the porch lights off and on still brings back fond memories and a blush to her cheeks.
So much missed opportunities, and the associated strike outs of course, to be had in our human existence.
Step up to the plate and take a swing.
You might just hit it out of the park. Or not.
But you cant win if you don't play.
Thanks dear.
You've made my life memorable.
7
I support this proposal. Though it may bring a type of enlightenment to the author and to other women: While there is undoubtedly an unfreedom involved in a societal convention that tells women they should be the pursued, there is a different sort of unfreedom in a societal convention that demands that men be the pursuer.
We should not rest until we have achieved full gender parity, and women account for 50% of ham-fisted pick-up lines!
2
As a widow in my 60s, I've struggled with the ins and outs of this issue. Dating, sex, desire and the freedom to say no are complicated. As we claim the right to ask, we also need to respect the right of men to say no. The reality is that the person who wants less intimacy is the person who sets the parameters, regardless of gender.
7
@Mary Woodhead, it's a rule of interpersonal dynamics, especially in relationships. Low desire partner always controls, whether it is sex, activities, religious practice, socializing, etc. Great comment.
1
Yes!!!
Is this still a thing? Do single women, of any age, actually not ask men out? Do they actually drop hints, gave come hither glances and wait to be asked? I would have though that in 44 years since I first asked a boy to my junior prom, and then drove us both to said prom, since he didn't have his license yet, that a bit more progress has been made. My husband made no formal proposal of marriage, we sort of figured out that we wanted the same things, went together to pick out an engagement ring, and made no big announcement. I believe that we have raised our two grown daughters in the same vein, figure out what you want and then ask for it.
4
From my male perspective... it was hard to ask girls or women out. It wasn’t something I ever considered a privilege, in fact I would have loved to have some of those same females to ask me instead. A lot of self-esteem and image is at stake, or atleast it feels that way. Many times I never did ask. I hope anyone, having that same desire for someone else, has both the assumption that it’s okay to do so, and the courage to make their self vulnerable and go for it
5
When I was a high school teacher, I used to love pointing out to my lit classes how Shakespeare's comic heroines did the proposing. The students of female persuasion (especially those from more traditional cultures) were always impressed with the proof. This led to interesting discussions of Shakespeare's characterization of young marriageable women in his comedies. I've always wondered if the knowledge resulted in an eventual action on the part of some students!
4
Is it inevitable that each generation thinks it has invented life? With regard to the implication that only now are women taking the romantic initiative: I proposed to the man I loved. I knew he would never feel secure enough to know how much I loved him. He accepted promptly.
We were together contentedly for 31 years.Twenty years on I still mourn him even though life has moved on and I am living it enthusiastically. But I regret constantly that he is not sharing the experiences with me and I still love him.
11
In 1971 I was asked to the junior prom by a girl who was a junior. I said yes, she was thrilled. I was a freshman. She discovered that fact a week later and rescinded her invitation. She seemed sad to do that. The loss of the date never reduced the sheer excitement of having been asked out.
That was *the* only time it happened in my life. I remember the moment to this day.
So, I agree, ask away girls/women, I think men will be thrilled. But some will say no, it just happens that way.
8
@Joe Sabin P.S. I should have said boys/men.
1
As someone that always (we're talking 5 years old wearing a long t-shirt and rolling my athletic socks down and voila I'm Cyndi Lauper) considered myself androgynous by nature, I have over my lifetime seen up close just how unfair the world of men is , to well everything, but definitely to women. It is bullied, scorned, raped, molested, bought and sold, packaged up like perfect propaganda, and the death of Mother Earth.
Everyday should be Gaia Day: Where women remind themselves of the Great Woman Spirit they have come from, of their inherent worth and dignity, and how they do not need to be chained to the family structure which was created by men. Enough is enough #MeToo. #SaveThePlanet
1
The side-long glance and the subtle arm-stroke with a big smile should do the job unless the guy is a complete dork.
3
All of my male friends would be thrilled if women asked them out. Most men I know are terrified of approaching a woman "in the wild" (meaning, not on Tinder) unless they're drinking. The #metoo movement, combined with easy-access porn and majorities of lives spent in virtual worlds, have industrialized and sanitized human courtship to a point where it would be unrecognizable to a young person of even 30 years ago. Of course, there was plenty wrong with that, too—but true romance does seem to be on the endangered species list.
6
Yes!
That was fun reading. It reminds me of my Lisa, oh how I miss her.
All women should know a couple of ideas from this old guy; Life is too short to wait. Patience is a virtue I have no time for. And also, guys always wonder if the "Object" of their desire likes them. What the heck, go for it girls. The population is waning and we need more democrats. Go for it.
7
My daughter recently got engaged. Catching up with the two of them later, I saw that only he had a ring on. Her ring. I'm not sure how I feel about this: I kind of think the guy should be doing all the proposing. On the other hand, he's actually handsomer than Dax Shepard, so I'll let it go.
2
The goal for all women should be a life of her own and what a bonus when you find a partner.
A fond memory of my Dad was his telling me that marriage was something you do before you die.
My (now) wife kissed me first. Surprised the heck out of me, but I wasn't upset at all, just blown away! She says it was because I wouldn't stop talking. She's probably right.
7
If you live in the STEM world, this is already the reality. The people that study for and work in this world are pretty straight forward about human relationships and what they want.
They don't need to get drunk on a night out, to hook up. When you've gone out to dinner, on to a movie, and ask the question, "what do you want to do now?', the answer may be, "sex would be nice". Said by either partner.
Delivered without self consciousness, and if there are any (romantic) expectations about it, it will be that you'll probably have a really nice breakfast together when you wake up in the morning. If "breakfast" continues to go well, you're in a longer term relationship.
1
It doesn't matter who pursues whom as long as the metric for female desirability remains skin-deep. The vast majority of women, even those who advocate against patriarchal norms, conform to patriarchal notions of femininity. They wear make-up and form-fitting clothing and act "ladylike." The three most powerful tools women could wield to truly achieve equality are make-up free faces, baggy clothes and loud public flatulence. The last may seem crass, but women need to swing the pendulum back from its extreme position.
5
I would think men would be thrilled to be liberated from the responsibility of being the ones who have to "make the first move". How refreshing it would be if there was true equality in the asking...from asking for a phone number to asking to get married and all the asking in-between.
2
Yes! Yes! Yes! Women need to own their sexuality and truly be equal by abandoning fear. Fear of slut shaming, fear of being used (we all are in a sense) and fear from social stigma.
Also, please free men from the burden of almost always having to be the initiator, the ‘aggressor.’
3
Not for nothing, but having Kristen Bell ask you to marry her is a pretty damn high complement. You're a stud, Dax!
4
I'm one of the women who didn't wait around for guys to ask me out. In fact, at age 6, I liked to chase the boy I had a crush on around the playground, catch him, and give him a huge smooch, after which he'd report me to the teacher. At the 8th grade dance, when a bunch of girls waited in a corner to be asked to dance by boys, I said to myself, "To hell with this!" and walked across the floor to ask boys to dance. I never felt comfortable with guys paying for all the dates, or making all the overtures, so I shared that responsibility. I'm happily married now and we define for ourselves who does what, which can change when needed. Why not?
195
@Canine9 Wow common sense without the "Scarlet O'Hara" feinting and Victorian woman meets Angry Feminist stance of so many women today. God bless you.
5
@Canine9
You're very lucky. It doesn't work out so well for most women. I wish it did.
1
I thought I was the only one who chased boys in the playground and kissed them, I was called the kissing machine.
6
Truth be told, since time immemorial, aka when I was young gal—but not too young—I always made the first move. Either making blatant what I desired (nothing like a good wink to get the ball rolling), or literally, far more than leaning in! More like lecherously swooping in. But it always left me wondering, was the feeling mutual, or was I just a ballsy gal? And then, in the baker’s dozen or so instances when I wasn’t making my own arrangements, does that mean I was inadvertently “asking for it?” The answer was, and is, no. But the argument can be made, and will be made.
I have always envied people who know what they want. Men who were clear they wanted to date were easy to communicate with, and if they responded to my ambivalence with good humor and patience sometimes we both got lucky when I got comfortable enough to realize I might be up for more. But I was usually more interested in the less clear men. True, some of the smartest men I knew turned out to have very misguided notions between their ears about female desire and signals thereof. Isn’t it always a learning process, to be approached with a certain advisable caution? I’m sure I’m not the only woman who’s notions, even clearish ones, evolved and / or clarified in unexpected ways. Notions about myself and what I might want, as well as about what was going on with the guy/s in question. I was not brought up with sports humor, but I came to appreciate the phrases, “hey, a swing and a miss” and “no harm, no foul”. And even ( applied to everyone) “ Faint heart ne’er won fair lady”. Also (could it have been from a teacher?) “better not to try anything you can’t laugh about together the next day” ! Applied to a canoe ride or something more intimate.I love the conciseness of social media the kids use. But sometimes it seems so earnest. Or so vague. These awkward landscapes of in-between invite recklessness, restraint, humor, respect, bewilderment...and real life. There may be joy for the finding.
In the 1965 film "In Harm's Way" (dir.: Otto Preminger) a Navy nurse played by Patricia Neal explains to another character in the film (and the audience) that she likes a particular Navy captain, played by John Wayne, and she's going to make sure that her favorite captain knows about it.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of women have been standing at the curb for a long long time, awaiting their golden chariot, and all the talk and discussion (and newspaper op-eds) won't change a damn thing until women take the bull by the figurative horns and step into the figurative street, whistling loudly and shrilly for the next approaching chariot.
We hear a whole lot about strong, resourceful women and what women really need is less talk and more action.
I think plenty of young women today have no trouble at all expressing feelings and desires.
My two young women neighbors of the past year, had so many sleep overs, so often, keeping me awake with a shared bedroom wall, that my friend bestowed a rude nickname upon the apartment, since the visitors were very seldom the same men.
As wonderful as it would be if everyone were open and honest without all the games, I'm reminded of the JC Penny "Fair and Square" pricing fiasco. Something in our lizard brain loves the hunt, whether it's for a great sale, great meal or a great mate.
Happy Black Friday everyone!
I had to laugh when I saw this. My very first girlfriend made it exceptionally clear where I stood even before our first date. I was very quiet, bordering on shy, especially around girls at that time. She put her arms around my neck and planted a very...um... inappropriate kiss on my inexperienced lips. When I told one of my close friends later, he said, "Don't date her. The guy should always make the first move." I ignored him with prejudice. The point is that life is full of surprises, especially when it comes to relationships. I've never talked to a man or woman with the same story about how they met, courted or solidified their relationships. That includes plenty of stories about the female pursuing the male. Thank God for surprises.
9
I have no horse in this race having been happily married for 30+ years, but I still remember being approached and "asked out" as being tremendously flattering.
2
It's interesting to see how comments either favor the more traditional approach or the more progressive approach to dating and marriage. It reminds me of someone I dated (once) who fused the two approaches.
I met Ruth on campus, a recent Princeton graduate with a degree in Chemistry. After a couple of conversations, she asked me out.
Dinner started off innocuously enough, but after a while she started asking about my career plans. She then proceeded to tell me she expects her husband to support her, and do so lavishly. She didn't want to work, kids or no kids, and had no interest in a 'modern' relationship. It felt more like a job interview than a date. But heck, at least she was being forthright about her expectations. Better to hear them now than several years into a failing marriage, I thought.
About the time it became evident I was losing interest, she turned the conversation to interracial marriages. (She was Asian, I am caucasian). Perhaps she thought I had concerns. She looked directly at me, and in the most reassuring voice she could conjure, she offered this: "It's fine to mix milk with tea. And it's fine to mix milk with coffee. But one should never mix coffee with tea."
Waiter, check please!!
8
"So I grew up believing that girls were supposed to be wanted, but we were not supposed to want."
That must be difficult, and in a cruel twist of fate, men grow up believing they are supposed to want, but not supposed to be wanted.
10
I asked my husband to marry me. I was madly in love with him. He was an introvert, and never made the first move with anything. Years later I learned why: He was a hermit at heart, and while he readily went along with the relationship and seemed happy, once we married he reverted to his hermit ways and fended off all intimacy, and just wanted to be alone all the time. (Within a week of marrying, he declared that he had always hated kissing, and wouldn't do it anymore.) Seven years and a child later, we divorced. It's been more than 20 years. He hasn't had a single date, since. I feel like a fool for not having noticed that he "just wasn't that into it." So I'd caution women who think of popping the question to ask whether he's all that into you, if he isn't taking the initiative.
9
When living in Puerto Rico I found the boldness of Latin women so refreshing. They may not straight up ask you out but they do make their desires known. The problem in the States is that too many men teach their daughters that they are "princesses" and men should fall at their feet. If you ever meet a woman's father and he calls her " princess" run away. Far, far away.
9
@Paulie I've heard the same from two friends who have lived in Spain. One, a man, said it was so nice to be flirted with, and the other, a woman, said it was so nice to flirt.
Such a refreshing contrast to puritan, repressed North America.
You mean we're not doing this already? The last time I was single, at age 47 in 2003, I asked one guy for a second date after he gave me his number and we had a nice few months of dating. The next guy, I sent my number to (through a friend) along with a request to call me. We've now been married 11 years. Maybe it was just because I was older but I definitely felt "liberated" enough to be assertive regarding my desires. After all this time, and what we as individuals as well as women as a group have been through, I feel like you've got 2 choices: (1) go after what you want, or (2) sit around moping and hoping it comes to you. I prefer the former.
4
I recall being 15 years old and thinking how unfair and burdensome it was that I (that the male) had to be the one to initiate contact and interest if I wanted to meet a girl.
I was shy about it and it seemed like an impossible task.
Unfair I thought.
There are two people involved, why all the responsibility on me?
I knew even then that these gender roles were not real. They were artificial and a manifestation of some sexual mores and societal rules that existed… umm… just because they did.
Made no sense to me, having been raised to question accepted norms and always tilt toward more human equality.
I got through it.
As I matured, I always gravitated to more independent women who showed strong spirit and confidence in the microseconds of first looks and words.
Those qualities freed me to be an equal, which is what I desire - what let's me feel more natural and comfortable. I don't want to be an executive in a relationship with anyone in any context.
Pitfall: some men may take the attention in a way that puts the woman in a situation she doesn't want. They may construe wrongly but I think this can be handled. Be careful.
Some men may be stuck in gender roles and balk.
And, of course, there is the possibility of being rebuffed. In which case you just move on.
One thing men would probably like:
Every day being Sadie Hawkins day when the check comes after the meal.
Ladies, want to feel equal and smash a gender role?
Pull out the wallet and say, " I got it."
7
@Paul King, that doesn't work either. I went to a sports bar with a date; we ate pizza and watched football; the place was busy. When we went to pay, I took the ticket and told my date: "I had a great time. Let me buy, K?" He got a stunned look on his face and told me he didn't like to look like a wuss in a place where his friends would see that. He paid the tab with a clenched jaw, then asked me if it was OK if HE drove, or did I feel the need to control that, too.
Whatever. That's the point of the article, I guess.
1
I was a shy young woman when I met the man who swept me off my feet. He was a brilliant artist with a wonderful outgoing personality. A friend said to me "If you want this one, you'll have to let him know". I took her advice. After forty two years of marriage I'm so thankful that I did.
7
Brilliant article. Ms Neuman is exploring a hot mess of fundamental cultural and maybe biological inclinations, and they truly need to be explored. Many of the male actions derided by the MeToo movement are warped enactments of this romantic "ideal" -- when does a romantic comedy become a horror movie? I hope Ms Neuman continues this discussion and draws many other participants.
4
As I aged and grew more confident in myself, it became easier to make the first moves in a dating relationship. I had to accept the fact that I might be rejected, and that this didn't make me less valuable as a person. We can't be everyone's type, and finding love is worth the risk of rejection (if you can handle it).
7
I agree totally--this is the missing link in the Metoo movement--and a crucial shift that must take place. Unless women stand up and take the offensive in making their interests known, men will continue to be expected to be the aggressor, and be rewarded accordingly. Do women really want to select the types of traits that often lead to abuse, ironically, by not selecting (and letting men select them)? Really important piece. Thanks.
5
Most of the men I know would rather have women making the relationship decisions. As one friend said, "At least if she proposes to me I know I won't get turned down." But then, we're all going on 70, so what do we know.
6
I'd say there's a big difference between asking a man (especially a stranger) out on a date and proposing marriage.
As to who initiates the first date, lots of women are traditional and I can see either way working out fine.
BUT, once you are in a serious relationship, every major decision should be 50/50. I can't imagine a relationship where a woman as been dating a man for 2, 3, 4 years and the topic of marriage (if that's what they want) is not discussed openly and often. It's a lifelong decision. Are there actually women who sit silently year after year just waiting to be surprised with a ring over dinner some night? Does that actually happen? It's a sincere question on my part. Every couple I know mutually agreed marriage was the way they wanted to go; the proposal was just kind of like formalizing something they had decided to do together.
9
I am a 62 year old woman, and have never been shy about asking men out; this was always regarded as eccentric behavior. I feel like things have not changed much in the last 40 years for both young women and women my own age (with the exception that now, I find many men my own age are dating much younger women).
So much for progress in equality between the sexes.
1
Asking a woman out, at any age is terrifying, and so is sharing your feelings first. It is not male or female, it is universal. What is social is that we have created conventions that the man typically asks the woman, and society has given both parties a huge range of options to handle both acceptance and rejection. the idea that it is the guy who typically asks, gives the guy permission to try, and at least in some sense helps dim the hurt when the approach is unsuccessful. It may be a while before society develops similar salves and balms for the female ego, but I agree, it should happen and we should be much more accepting of it.
6
I agree with the author's idea that women shouldn't hold back asking for what they want, but as a woman I feel like my passivity isn't just from conditioning. Women on average have lower libido, if my partner never initiated physical intimacy it would rarely happen. It's well documented that gay relationships have the most sex, then heterosexual ones, then lesbians have the least. We should absolutely change culture so that individuals have the agency to make their own decisions, but we shouldn't be upset if there are still differences on average between men and women.
1
I think Sadie Hawkins Day is a great idea. Given the ambiguity surrounding male-female relations in the post #MeToo era, women being upfront with men about their feelings would go a long way in alleviating some of the confusion, plaguing these interactions. I am of the opinion that both sexes should be open about their feelings toward each other and should be able to respectfully back down when rejected (without being offended or feeling pressured to do so), this is 2018 after all!
3
I was single until I was over 40, so I dated for a long time. I wholeheartedly agree that women should make their desires known and take the initiative rather than being coy. But what i have never seen produce anything but unhappiness is when women pursue ambivalent men who don’t fully return their own strong feelings. Sometimes this even results in marriage, but it never is a good lasting marriage. Unlike women, men rarely seem to change their feelings in a positive direction over time — they’ll simply stay lukewarm or get even less interested. Better for a woman to wait for someone who is really into her, regardless of who makes the first move.
12
Absolutely agree. Well put. Got me to thinking, though, that the "traditional" way (women hint, men ask) is evolved to select for aggressive, self-assured men. This probably had survival value for the tribe way back when but maybe not so much for the species as a whole now, given that our aggressive, self-assured men have nukes. Time for a change.
5
@Rob Porter Very well said. But in the meantime, the selection for aggressive men continues. Trump has had more women than "gentle, harmless, nice" guys ever will. (They still laugh at those guys.) And to make things more complicated, a man now who makes the 1st move runs the risk of being accused of harassment. (Even "asking her out when she didn't want to be" seems to be considered harassment.)
I am in my 70's, single, and thankful that I no longer have to navigate this stuff. I hope the younger generation does better, though what I see doesn't make me hopeful.
1
This presupposes there are boys and men who want to ask you out in the first place, that you are the kind of woman men want. I'm guessing the author wouldn't be so bullish about this idea if her efforts had not led to some success. For me, If I hadn't asked men out, nothing would have ever happened--I mean zero dates ever would have occurred. Because no one was interested. And since these men I asked weren't interested, nothing much ended up happening anyway. Men look down on women who ask them out. They are taught to think that it means a woman is pathetic and desperate. A large subset of women like me are invisible to men, undateable. If we don't ask, there is nothing at all. But when we do ask, it is usually a humiliating failure. So I get what the author is saying, but it presupposes a basic level of desirability on the part of the woman that is often just not there in the eyes of men. The main patriarchal oppression for many women is invisibility.
16
@ehmcc I'm very sorry to hear of your experience with men but I have to say it's a lot like the experience men I know have with women.
They're rarely if ever flirted with and when they've asked women out they're almost always rejected. Most of these guys, my 53 year brother among them, give up and become invisible to women.
Incidentally, I'm 51 and have never been asked out by a woman and I don't know any man who has been. Far from looking down on a woman who asked me out, I'd be flattered, because, believe it or not, even men like to be desired.
12
@ehmcc Sorry, but I can't see how it is "oppression" not to get the person that you think you deserve. Everyone has a right to their own desires and preferences. Everyone has to get in where they fit in.
Usually if someone, man or woman, thinks they are "invisible" to the opposite sex, they are setting their goals far too high. Most men don't get a Nicole Ari Parker or Heidi Klum either. But they still live happy lives.
Most people can find someone if that's what they want. But they might need to be more realistic about who they are and what they offer.
2
@Lilo the oppression is the standard of desirability that I can't meet. believe me, I'm not waiting for a movie star.
2
Chalk it up to what I call cultural hysteresis. Facts on the ground change, but culture takes a while to catch up.
Not so long ago, women were shy for good reason: saying "yes" meant getting pregnant and married. It was driven by biology: women had something valuable that men wanted, so women protected it and men contended for it. Men also wanted to be sure any children were really theirs, so jealousy and possessiveness were natural responses.
Fast forward to today, where women can satisfy their desires without the biological side effects, if they choose. Our culture still carries the baggage from the past, but we're busy updating our cultural norms. It takes awhile, but it is happening.
Welcome to the 21st century.
1
Trust me, men would be thrilled if more women would be more proactive about approaching men themselves rather than waiting to be approached. I don't know a single man who would look down on a woman for expressing interest first. Either he's not interested, in which case he's just flattered, or he is interested, in which case he is too busy being relieved that he didn't have to put himself out there first to possibly even think about looking down on you for making the first move.
But it still doesn't happen much because asking people out is terrifying. All men know this, though we avoid admitting it to each other or to women. Asking someone out always carries the very real risk of rejection. And women, perhaps because they don't typically experience it as often, tend to take rejection even harder than men do.
Most women don't ask men out because they don't have to, because it is easier to go along with the cultural expectations that spare them the chance of rejection. It's easier to wait for someone to come to you and make themselves vulnerable than it is go to them and make yourself vulnerable.
This is something that women absolutely could change themselves. There is no patriarchy stopping women from taking the initiative in dating.
11
@A Well said!
1
Most guys will think you like them, whether you do or not. You don't have to tell them. Stay away from them. The guy you like who doesn't suspect it you marry. He is least likely to run around on you. Put more emphasis on being lovable and doing loving things, and talking about it won't be necessary.
3
Lots of comments here that seem to miss the heart of this article:
“women’s self-denial is connected to the mentality that allows men to believe that our desire is their prerogative. Our conditioned passivity leaves a vacuum that male narcissism fills with its version of us.”
It would be good to hear from men and women about this specifically and build on it to include how a learned passivity by girls/women enables a lack of understanding by them of what is wanted, both in the moment and in ongoing relationships. We have all read the narratives of women who went along with or did not know how to advocate for themselves with unfortunate outcomes.
One wonders when we will acknowledge the difficulty of the early years of navigating intimacy by girls and boys and meet it with some education through family and school. This seems to be the “Sadie Hawkins Day” solution the author is piqued by. Why is there not more freedom and encouragement to step outside the lines? Between the asymmetrical nature of desire in female/male relationships as well as the differences, on balance, for what motivates commitment, it is crucial for healthy interaction that everyone is aware of how the other sex views us. When we can do that to the best of our ability, we will avoid many of the current (and sadly timeless) pitfalls.
For my part I pursued my senior prom date, my first love and yes, made the first exquisite move. That was back in ‘86 when I did not yet think of myself as a feminist.
@RachelK None of the men I know who've given up asking women out are narcissistic. Quite the opposite. They've given up on romance because rejection has made them feel hideous and undeserving of love.
And I do hope you got clear consent before your first "exquisite move."
1
This column brings back a memory I have of the late fifties and I was a high school freshman. A girl whom I thought was the prettiest girl in my class asked me to go to a movie with her and some friends. I was both flattered and horrified. Me, a plain hayseed from the country, being asked on a date by a girl was the stuff of dreams. In reality, I knew that she was in a different league fro me. But that was then, and this is now. Now I am married to a wonderful, sexy woman who asked me out on a date years after that event in high school. I am grateful for courageous women who know what and whom they want, then go for it.
5
I had no reason to be shy as a young man; good looking, athletic and soon to be headed to college on a full academic scholarship. But approaching girls brought out an unsure side in me. At 17 one of the cheerleaders found out that I was "unattached" and told her friends 'he's mine, stay away," then passed the word to me and suddenly we were dating. LOL. What a relief. I learned a lot from this first girl friend; the art of chatting on the phone for starters and how a friendship can accompany a fun romance. It only lasted ten months but we are still good friends many years later.
My son and daughter however grew up in a different social world. In college they went out with friends of both sexes in groups to dance clubs, dinners or the movies. I thought that this was a great approach to getting to know each other and seeing if there were mutual attractions. And girls did ask out guys on occasion; no big deal. My son also used an online dating scene after college where the asking-out seems to be a mutual process. He found his wife that way.
A woman proposed to me back in the 70's. I said sorry, no. If women start asking men out on dates or to marry they may have to learn to deal with that type of rejection. In my case the "rejected" woman handled it well. I sent her flowers the next day. We're still friends.
I am happily married now for 44 years, and I did the proposing... but I also would have said yes if she had asked.
5
I'm a 59-year-old divorced man. If a woman asked me out, I would be DELIGHTED. I would also probably drop dead from shock.
15
@Jack Connolly #metoo!
1
@Jack Connolly
Women our age are stuck in the past.
1
But when the ship is going down, it will be “women and children first”, won’t it. I once referred to the firemen who rushed into the Trade Center and were killed doing their duty. A woman in the group corrected me and said they are called “firefighters”. I said all that went in and were killed were men, give them that at least.
Men and women are fundamentally different at the physical level. There are lots of guys out there who do not manage their relationships to their satisfaction too. People have to work out the mechanics of their relationships themselves.
5
Sadie Hawkins day seems to me based on the same assumptions about romance that underly the idea of marriage starting with the man proposing on bended knee proffering an expensive ring. The idea that intelligent, independent women must wait for a kneeling man to open up a ring box and pose the question is insulting to women. Yet, it happens all the time between people who reject traditional male-female social customs. I don't get it, but maybe that's why I'm still not married...
3
When I was in Art School (one of the last traditional places that no longer exist) the student population was approximately half women, half men. There were many lgbtq people, out and not. There were a lot of people ranging in age far beyond the usual college years, including a nun and several former psychologists. There were people of pretty much every ethnicity.
There were nude models in most of the classes and in many of the faculty and student studios (yes, in the school building, a former hotel). Four of these models were women and men in their late seventies; one was a hermaphrodite. Several of the instructors were openly in relationships with students, with various gender/age mixtures. No one, including the teenagers, batted an eye. The year was 1980.
After a backstory like this, it should come as no surprise that the women there (of any age) were not intimidated by men. They saw themselves as equal, and everyone regarded them accordingly. And, in general, they were not at all shy about asking for sex. The difference being that, having nothing to prove, they didn't need to be so self-conscious, or analytical. Or blunt!
I grew up with sisters, and the prime movers (if not the major wage earners) were women. I have been very involved in the upbringing of unheard of nieces and nephews. I taught at University for twenty years, in workshop settings, where you get to know the students. Most people are okay! I read articles like this, and I am left scratching my head...
3
@Allen Wow, what an interesting personal history! I would like to speak with someone like you in person sometime. I think it would be a cool learning experience for a middle aged European raised male like me. I always looked at women as free, amazing creatures, and I have met quite a few in my younger years, but now living here in Brooklyn, surrounded by Millenials, those encounters seem to have ended.
Great article: perfect topic for dinner conversation with the kids (one boy one girl).
My response to this article is - yes!
I was a super shy boy. Looking back on my teen years and early 20's I am amazed how many girls I knew, and met, were just dying for me to make the move, which of course I never did. If they had simply said, "you're cute!", or reached out and took my hand, I might have got the message and built up the nerve to ask them out. Or give them a kiss on a sunny day.
I've been dating and then married for 37 years to the first girl who did what the author talks about in her article. I think about those missed opportunities, that came before my wife chased me down with a singular drive that finally penetrated my seemingly impenetrable shyness, and I finally asked her out. It could have been one of those other girls who played the game, and never got that date offer from me. Or that kiss.
3
I believe that European women are more forward in their expressing their wanting. Americans seem to have a more strict pattern of romancing, and generally how to set up their lives. At what age one should marry, what are the most desirable professions for male candidates, the dream of the own house with the white picket fence, and all that stuff...
3
“As the MeToo movement threatens to uproot the patriarchal assumption of women as objects, we need to recognize that women’s self-denial is connected to the mentality that allows men to believe that our desire is their prerogative.”
Yes! 100 percent. I’d add, however, that’s it’s not just a mentality that “allows” men to believe that — it’s one that “commands” it. The toxic way in which we socialize boys puts such pressure on them to tie their own self worth to whether or not they can control women’s desire. That pressure leads to a lot of unhealthy behavior. In that sense, girls and women taking the agency they deserve to express their desires would, I think, relieve some of that pressure and have positive effects on boys and men as well.
1
Something of a double-edged sword, too.
If a female takes the initiative, it may be perceived as needy, pushy. The male may also see it as 'she wants it', and react inappropriately.
I agree with another responder who said that say why you like that person. The worst thing they will say is thank you and walk away. You on the other hand won't have those "if only" scenarios.
Lastly, it is about being confident in who you are, and be ready to receive a lukewarm response. Life deals NO, and this is no different.
1
Why is it that women have made so many strides in the workplace and elsewhere, but not in this sphere? Don't get me wrong, I'm a 100%, dyed-in-the-wool, feminist woman who is not shy about sex or anything else. But the persistence of this phenomenon honestly makes me wonder whether there's something biological going on here.
1
Interesting column. Female animals in the wild most definitely know how to let the male know they’re looking for some action, and have absolutely no shame in showing it. But then they also get to watch the males fight it out for the right to mate with her.
As someone else here mentioned, women have so many ways to let a guy know they’re interested, or not. Also, do we really want relations between the sexes to become completely interchangeable? That’s where it’s trending now, especially in this country, and there’s something sad about that.
In this social media, virtual reality world, I am in favor of anything that gets people off their smartphones and promotes face-to-face interactions with live, flesh-and-blood human beings.
We all need to put down our smartphones for a while and reintroduce ourselves to our fellow humans. There are some really nice people out there just dying to meet you.
3
The traditional way of doing things isn't all that easy for most guys either. Really. We are generally CLUELESS. It's sort of amazing any of us found wives.
6
Man, back in the day women were a LOT bolder. Those were the hippie years. If one woman liked you, all her friends did too. You didn't have to be manly, take-charge, forceful or overbearing - just be cool and be a friend. If a woman liked you she'd let you know.
Late '70s I moved back east to go to grad school. People were all tied up in knots over woman-man relationships, women acted frightened of men, strangers wouldn't speak to you on the street, and EVERYONE was scared of black people. They all could have had so much more fun if they had just loosened up a bit. But they didn't and look at them now.
1
Allellulia! Goodonya! I've always wondered why the whole notion of women's rights didn't include this aspect of relationship.
The piece not addressed here, from a male perspective, is that we have to do all the work and bear the brunt of rejection. It's so frustrating to expect that women will respond if they want to be with me, but most often they just wait for me to make the move.
And when i speak to millennial women, they are so frustrated because the men in their generation don't ask for what they want. They are kind of stuck in a bind. Women are goddesses, and the men are scared to death that they are going to something wrong, so why bother.
I am with you Kate, thanks for your courage in voicing your opinion. It's about time.
Maybe I'm behind the times, but I thought people hooked up first via Technology and got to the liking later on, if ever.
I had not noticed that girls were terribly backwards about this sort of thing. It might be that this particular writer was unusually shy. During my daughter's adolescent years (she's forty, mother of two, lawyer), I was able to witness first hand the way girls go after the boys they like--with a vengeance. The most competent adjust their approach to fit the boy in question. The most important arrow in the girl's quiver is guile. Boys are clueless (the girls in my son's high school called him Captain Clueless behind his back). The must be led, and it's better if they don't know it, because they like to think they are the ones in control (poor fools that they are). But in fact they don't have the wits to determine their destinies. Girls know that they have to take a hand. It's all for those ninnies' own good.
But sometimes the girl has to be more direct, for example, if the boy is intractable and difficult to lead. Sometimes, the girl has to sit back and see whether the boy will come to her; if not, move on to the next one.
All this I learned by watching my high school aged .
children. My daughter artful and scheming; my son almost out of contact.
The truth is that the girls do pretty much control the process.
This system works well, and no changes are needed. Girls generally are good at being girls. Boys generally are good at being boys. They work it out.
1
@Ken Sorry if I offend you Ken, but this perspective just makes me very sad.
1
My high school crush passed away this year. From the moment I set eyes on him in a 9th grade art class, that was it. For four years my intensely felt passion for him was ever-present, but the shy girl I was back then couldn't even contemplate letting him know. ( I would, however, send E.S.P. love messages on a routine basis!) Other relationships would follow, along with a very happy marriage. When I heard of his death, it was as if all those bottled up feelings came pouring out ..... and I was surprised at how much grief I felt for someone who I was never that close to in any real way.
The coda of my high school year book entry was a "what if" type of quote,... back then thinking of it as a secret message to my unrequited love interest. Now I look back and think what if I had made my feelings known to him?
Great column, - thank you.
1
Whatever. Do what y'all wanna do. I'm not fussed one way or the other.
Every straight man I know would love to have a woman come onto him. Without exception.
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@Riley Temple How right you are! I'm 51 and still waiting. I'm assuming the odds of it happening are diminishing with age but I hold out hope.
1
Oh god YES! Being one of the only girls to call boys in high school in the 1980s was kind of scary, but I told myself that if I liked someone, I should call them. I assumed the world would be a different place by now. Not yet! Still, my 20+ year marriage to someone who had no problem with me calling him shows that men AND women can take the first step.
2
I love this article. It’s funny, the most diehard feminists I know in New York still complain about men who don’t plan their dates, pay for drinks, or ask them out even though they’re interested.
3
It's simple, really. We're largely equals—let's live that way.
(In that vein, the whole women-in-military thing gets in the way of caring for children but (a) the man, other woman, etc. can do that and (b) is this REALLY a good time to have more?)
Don't get me started on the wastefully expensive unwritten-rule-fest that is the prom. My least favorite phrase is "rite of passage", which prom (in social terms) brazenly embodies.
Sadly, the latest generation of students I teach at a public university seem just as stymied. Asked point blank if it's okay for a heterosexual woman to ask out a guy, they all say YES. Asked if anyone actually does it----not so much. And technology is not helping at all--it has blown up the old script, but hasn't yet facilitated any genuinely new ways of behaving.
120
Despite a woman's submissive role in our culture (waiting to be asked), they ultimately pick their mates anyway. She may go up to a man and start a conversation, or say that she enjoyed his company. She may give him a smile from across the room. Or she may ignore guys she is attracted to. We might want a new chapter written though with internet dating and social media spawned hookups. It's a different dynamic. Talk to your kids if you dare....
So many of our gender problems seem to originate with the model of the woman acting as disinterested as possible and the man having to trust his instincts or intuition or some other flawed sense to decide if he should take the initiative.
It's no wonder women are harassed by hapless men who have poor intuition misread non-interest as purposeful hidden interest and cads assume that success with rude behavior must be right.
3
There's a fine line between the mere assertive and the desperate. Desperation is not attractive in either sex. Maybe women should cultivate the self-confidence and strength to realize that they do not need a man to be whole. Once that is accomplished, she will be truly free to move in the world as she chooses, not in pursuit of a "better half." Any man worth having will respond to a woman who is poised and self-assured. I taught my own daughters that to be fearless is to be confident and self-reliant. Then, whether she asks him or he asks her, they are on equal footing.
2
What I don't get is, with all the references to "patriarchal power," "disempowerment," "the patriarchal assumption of women as objects," "the mentality that allows men to believe that our desire is their prerogative," "conditioned passivity," and "male narcissism,"
you like us?
What would it be like if you didn't?
3
I like it when a woman lets you now how she feels. It doesn't happen too often, but when it does, it's memorable and nice. It seems than many, if not most, women like it too [if the guy's nice and not creepy]. Is it natural? Who knows? Let's enjoy this little time that we have on Earth together. We're much better off with each other than without each other.
1
Yes. We should. But in the words of Margaret Atwood, "should is a futile word". So with that in mind, good luck with that!
3
My wife asked me out on our first date. She's a go getter.
1
I'm just stunned that people nowadays aren't aware of the origins of Sadie Hawkins day--Lil' Abner was long part of common popular culture. In the early 1950s John Steinbeck half-seriously proposed that Al Capp be awarded the Nobel Prize in literature.
How accurate you are in your description of mutuality in our sexual drives; after all, we humans are sexual beings...and ought to think and act as such. In this day and age, when women are asserting themselves, as they must, as co-equals, a marvelous thing is happening, almost a paradigm, of sexually opposites being fully complementary and, I hope, as a man, in complete harmony with each other. Hypothetically speaking, if I were not married, and available and willing, it would be an honor to be asked, by a woman, what she wants or needs, and share in it;s commitment. Nothing wron for us, imperfect as we are, to seek perfection in our purpose. Just in case you are an Internet fan, and communicate mainly via Facebook (and the like), it would be the opposite of what we are talking about, and trying to achieve. 'Vive la difference' by walking the talk, and enjoy ourselves while we can.
23
I remember Al Capp, going around the country defending Nixon, promoting the Vietnam War, and trashing everything remotely progressive. Ironic to see us celebrating him now.
"Until heterosexual women no longer feel the need to wait for the man . . . --we leave ourselves at the mercy of men's desires."
Being straightforward and mildly vulnerable remains problematic as long as we cannot be sure of the other's decency. Until it is perfectly understood that No means No, women will hesitate to be honest. A society cannot have freedom without goodness.
2
@Chad Ray
How can we ever be absolutely sure of anyone's motives? If that's what you're waiting for, you will have a long wait. We are all human, and we will never be perfect. Sometimes you just have to take the chance. Nothing is for sure.
One reason I've always hesitated to let a man know I cared without first "testing the waters" in small ways was the reaction I got.
Usually, he either laughed at the notion that someone as physically unattractive as I was should aspire to his attention, or he assumed that any interest I might have in him should be interpreted as offering him sex. And why would he invest in a relationship if he could get the sex for free?
Of course, I could correct the mistaken second attitude, but why risk provoking it in the first place?
I did, eventually, make a forthright move on the one I eventually married--but only after we had engaged in a nuanced, give and take of slightly-less-than-direct indications of attraction and interest.
1
Have you heard of the Copernican Principle? It assumes that you’re not living in special times, that we’re in the middle of things that have always been. For example, do you think laughter will be around in a million years. Well laughter has been around since at least 4MM years ago in our evolution, so if you follow the formula of x/39 to 39x there is a good chance that laughter will be around. Let’s think how long the patriarchy has been in place, 30k years. Chances are it will be in place in a 100 years. Not as strong but still be around. The legal system (Brown vs Ed, civil rights act, gay marriage) usually moves faster than society. I pretty sure there will be a decent amount of misogynists and racists in this country. The goal is to reduce and accelerate that reduction. But I’m betting on the nature of power to change even less. Look at Facebook. Sheryl Sandberg wasn’t a more enlightened leader, they didn’t make better or different decisions when they felt under siege. What’s great is that the media is not giving Facebook or her a pass. If you live in progressive circles you will achieve this version of equality sooner than others. But the question of freedom is very very different. Don’t conflate equality with freedom. Things are never truly equal and we are rarely free. But that only means the never ending struggle to be treated like a white wealthy middle aged male will continue. It’s a good fight
I went to a parochial school and we never had Sadie Hawkins day. We had repression.
However this columnist assumes that men are standard, boilerplate constructs. The truth is that God loves variety in nature, and that includes men and women.
First, the line from Genesis 3 about women desiring men is not clearly translated here. This statement is part of God's curse after the fall. In the original Hebrew, the word "desire" is properly translated as "take control of". In other words, men are in a leadership role, but women will desire to wrest that role from them. Clearly when God exacts a curse, He doesn't mess around.
Women with the biggest advantage in the dating game are the ones who have good fathers -- the kind that school all their children in the vagaries of loving relationships. Unfortunately, these kinds of fathers are more honored in the breach than in the observance.
The truth is, women are allowing sexual congress way too early in the dating game. Today's standard practice seems to be wait 'til the 3rd date and all will be well. The sad result is a false sense of bonding before two people have any idea with what or whom they're dealing.
Both men and women would be well to take a lesson from the Proverbs: "He that is hasty exalts folly."
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@Lois - "The truth is, women are allowing sexual congress way too early in the dating game. Today's standard practice seems to be wait 'til the 3rd date and all will be well."
You seem to be thinking of young women from 20 years ago. See the latest edition of Atlantic magazine which suggests that single women (and men) are having much less sex, waiting longer, having many fewer pregnancies, etc. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/
And as a progressive Christian I find your doctrine of our all-loving God "cursing" all humanity and setting genders against one another to be totally different than my theology. That's my understanding of wholistic Christian doctrine, regardless of how men have interpreted Genisis over the centuries. Of course, I'm not a Biblical literalist.
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@LoisT
"The truth is, women are allowing sexual congress way too early in the dating game. Today's standard practice seems to be wait 'til the 3rd date and all will be well."
It's interesting that you view that. and wrote that as "Women's allowing..." rather than :"Today's standard practice seems to be that men and women are choosing. to have sex on the third date...." ,despite it's being 2018.
4
I would love for the world to work this way. But in my (perhaps sad, but reasonably extensive) experience, sex is at the forefront in most young men's minds, and any possible concept of love is so entangled with that, that it is really hard to say what is truly there, even when you think you feel it.
I would say that it is fine for a woman to approach a man, but there are many pitfalls. Well, let me rephrase. If she is in it for the sex, fire away. But if love is what you aim for, if you approach, you still need to hold back. Sex is great at getting a man's attention. Sex with little core knowledge about each other is not so great at keeping that attention. Most young men, even the (eventually) good ones, will not hold back to cultivate that deeper understanding, that deeper connection. It is stupid in a lot of ways, yes, but for young women, they need to be aware of this, and figure out how to navigate this issue. It is very tough.
The "rules" change as (most) men get older and have more experience about what is really important. Sex is always still there, of course, but there is (finally) a dawning of the knowledge that sex is not the end-all.
If I were told that I had to choose between all the sexual gratification I could get or the love I feel for my child, I'd toss out the sex in an instant. But that is experience. And young men do not generally have it.
6
Fully agree with this. In addition, there's a real problem with the expectation that women are coy and might say "no" when they mean "yes". Many men have the opinion that they shouldn't take "no" at face value because they think women want to be pursued. As long as some women feel this way, some men will act that way, and many women will suffer by not being heard when they say "no".
The more we can be direct about what we want, the more we can be equal.
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@Brad I have seen articles about the dozens of movies where the woman starts with "no", the man is persistent and it turns into a "yes" as both wink and the bedroom door closes. It is a movie cliche that always annoyed me.
25
@Brad
If a woman says :"No" , the man should take "No" to mean exactly that. Those "many men " who "have the opinion that they shouldn't take 'no" at face value, and act accordingly, should be aware that it is not just that "may women will suffer by not being heard when they say' no' "
but that the men in question may find themselves facing
rape charges, because going forward after a woman says' no" constitutes rape under the legal system in the United States .
6
@Brad r/niceguys
Building up the courage to ask a random women out - and most likely be rejected - is a skill that men generally have to practice for years. The success rate is usually pretty low.
Other than going up to strangers, though, I have to disagree. Most women make it VERY clear what they want. The fact that women choose to communicate these feelings through body language and subdued language isn't necessarily a problem, in my opinion. After all, a woman may be testing a man's ability to recognize subtle social cues, because being able to do so is advantageous - as Darwin would have called it, possessing a high degree of "fitness".
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@Johnny Why wouldn't a man ALSO want a partner who can read social cues? This is "fitness" for both sexes. Darwin was a great biologist, but he was an idiot when it comes to sexism (and racism).
10
@Johnny That's all well and good until a man misreads a woman's "body language" and "subdued language" and finds himself labelled a creep or accused of harassment.
If straight women want love and romance in the age of #metoo they're going to have to use words and ask men out.
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@Johnny
In what universe is using a communication system like subdued language and body language that is opaque and poorly understood not a problem?
It sounds to me exactly how you end up with no meaning yes.
20
This article, beautifully written though it is, encourages a change that is already well underway. Young women are already taking the initiative in romance, at least in the larger cities, and certainly online.
But both genders seem to be finding it harder to date. Young women seem baffled by this active process of seduction, and the ones I know resent having to do it. Young men seem unable to ask women out, for fear of appearing over eager or brutish themselves. All of the young people I know have a paralyzing fear of rejection, which seems magnified compared to the memory of my own youth.
Have a look at Kate Julian’s recent cover story in The Atlantic about the decade-long decline in sexual activity across age ranges. The idea of Sadie Hawkins day - simply swapping binary gender roles - is charmingly basic, but the looming crisis in human relationships needs a bit more consideration than that.
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@Ash Ranpura
Great comment. Part of the problem, the narcissist-level fear of rejection, might come from young people's embeddedness in online networks for reassurance and gratification. Today, any rejection episode or small personal drama can become the (unerasable) subject of "defacing" online activity, affecting the whole person's identity which is defined by his/her "online presence" and network of positive communication nodes. Today you can "destroy" someone with a small "leak". I have to think about the ease with which my lovers allowed me to make nude photographs of them. On analog film, before the WWW existed. At that time it would really have taken a big effort to "publicize" those in order to shame somebody. Today, when everybody can upload any "pix" to the whole world with just a click, you really should be much more careful and reluctant - to share any kind of intimacy leaving these kind of exploitable traces. It's unfortunate but I'm not sure this can be healed.
21
@Ash Ranpura there is no "looming crisis"...
4
@Ash Ranpura
See Ross Douthat's NY Times column from the other day "The Huxley Trap", and the commentaries following it.
There are a number of issues at play, but in most people, predictability and uncertainty overmatch a tolerance for complexity and ambiguity in relating to other human beings--and therefore, many choose to relate to other human beings only transactionally (i.e., sex for money) or not at all (i.e., porn--and soon virtual partners and sexbots).
When the rules are not spelled out or are in flux, many will retreat to realms in which the pararmeters are very well delineated and in which the individual has control.
15
I leave the issue of women's empowerment to women. From a male standpoint, the issue is that it is long past high time for women to assume some serious amount of the risk associated with initiating and maintaining sexual relationships. Stating one's desire plainly--whether for a date, cup of coffee, a long term relationship or momentary sex--requires courage and the willingess to take risk. Not simply the risk of rejection, although that is enough, but also the risk of unanticipated, untoward and inappropriate rejections.
Men have been taking risks for eons. Women haven't really changed in this regard. It's time for them to step up.
128
Oh come on! Women have been taking heavy risks for centuries!
Pregnancy, being spurned after the first date, the reputation of being “easy” and resultant mockery. But nothing is as dangerous as a romantic affair that sours and one person decides to punish the other.
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@Wine Country Dude
Hmm I don't think we are on the same plane in thinking about what constitutes risk. You have left out the biggest risk women would be taking. The risk that things advance more rapidly than one is willing. How long does it take to know someone before that risk is zero? I understand what you mean, I hope you understand what I mean too.
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@Nancy Rathke
I think Dude is only saying that men and women should take equal responsibility for expressing their needs and desires, and for taking the risks involved in doing that. They would also then both get to enjoy the incredible natural high when the feeling is returned!
25
I didn't have to read this whole article to totally agree with Ms Neuman. This dating and marriage debacle is so antiquated it's a joke. How many matches have been LOST because some silly girl going by some silly president is WAITING for the guy she is attracted to or is in love with to make the first move. REALLY? Women are so fickle, silly, and wishy-washy, and contradictory anyway, that how is a guy suppose to know how YOU feel or what YOU want? As the saying goes, "if you don't speak up for what you want, it goes to someone else." Those types of women will be 80 years old WAITING for some man to do the "gentlemanly thing. Good luck with that.
Well, some guys already on the board say that they could always figure it out if a young lady was interested. Me? not so much.
Most of us guys are pretty dense. Ladies, if you like us, tell us.
1
I like what you say here, Kate, because as a straight man in this day and age, I'm completely paranoid now about how I express any feelings for a woman I happen to be in love with, lest I be accused of patriarchal, sexist oppression just for attempting to make eye contact. This is easier: just hope she realizes and wait, and when she shows no interest, that's fine, love's overrated anyway.
2
I asked him out. I asked him to marry me. He was shy. Been married wonderful 33 years. And he isnt shy anymore.
1
First, isn't that what Tinder is for, and a reason for its success -- that women can express interest in a guy without really knowing much about him? Same things happens with all kinds of social media communication. An affirmative text from a female to a male does the same thing. Seems like the tech is far ahead of the author on this one.
Second, beware what you wish for, because I can predict the headline of the next Times op-ed on this subject "I Asked Him Out, He Said Yes, But He Thought That was a License to Want Sex With Me!"
3
Just thinking of all the frogs we could have been spared while waiting for the One to ask us to dance. The One who got away, because we didn't ask. Perhaps it is easier now with online dating.
1
There are some really weighty responses here. Some are like “traditions!” and others are like “about time!”
I can also hear the echoes of that annoying Peterson the Canadian Jungian professor guy. “Sex is biological response! We cannot change our destiny! Jung!”
Everyone just chill. She’s asking for social permission, and some flexibility in our media. That’s not crazy, that’s overdue.
If you like the old ways, there will be plenty of people for you. If you like the new, well... we have been waiting a long time.
Consider the huge positive response to To All the Boys I’ve Loved Before on Netflix. People love that romcom because it deals with just this issue in a kind and understanding way. It’s time society allowed women to be honest, and not shame them for it.
Part of the reason some women don’t get what they want in a relationship is because most feel they can never express what is in their hearts. How sad. I never really considered this. When you are a young guy you don’t necessarily realize this is how girls feel, and even if you did, if you were woke enough to realize, you wouldn’t push women for dates unless it was crystal clear.
Here’s the thing, though. It’s often not crystal clear until years later.
We all need to be more honest and compassionate with each other.
1
Is there anybody here who is under the age of 40? Given the age of the author and the usual age of people who comment in NYT articles, is this really a group that has the clearest picture on what the culture among single young people are like these days?
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@citybumpkin
Well, I'm 36, single, and (I think) considered pretty desirable.
And yet I've been asked out only once in my life. (I appreciated her honestly, and told her so) But many times I've found out after the fact that certain girls liked me. I lost friends this way, as a few of them turned on me because they felt rejected that I didn't pick up on their "signals" and ask them out myself. How crazy is that?
This happened back in college with one of my best friends. She felt scorned and absolutely hated me afterwards, even though she didn't really ever ask me out in any adult sort of way.
Years later, we have reconnected and mended the fences, and are literally friends. The spark is still there, too - stronger than ever. Sadly a relationship is impossible right now.... long story.
But yeah, this is still a thing. I see it with my younger friends as well. Women rarely ask men out, and it is to everyone's detriment.
1
I suppose that will let some boys/men know what it feels like not to be asked. Not a good feeling. It will probably confirm feelings they already have of unworthiness. Spread the misery.
@Horace: If you've got the goods, you get positive feedback. If you don't, you're on your own. Nothing has changed in that regard.
I whole heartedly agree with Kate Neuman. My Mother was a trailblazer and proposed to my Father 3 months after they met and they have been married for over 40 years. A few years ago my fiancée asked me out on our first date. I will be forever grateful to both for daring to choose for themselves. When I was younger I always dreaded having to make the first move when it came to dating - most of my guy friends would agree. I think many women would find if they expressed interest first they might find better partners faster than waiting for the Mr. Right-nows to drop their pickup lines.
With apologies to the lyric writer," So Many Men, So Little Time!" You Go Girls and Ladies!!!
1
I'm a tad shocked Kristen Bell of all people had to propose to Dax Shepard
1
Given today’s laws, it is safer if the girl makes the first move.
2
I never saw it in school, but saw quite a bit of it in the office in later years, where the Sadie game was played year round. The problem was that the targets of the hunt by nubile, socially ambitious, sexual athletes too often were middle-aged married executives seen as passports to upscale status by many of the short-skirted, youthful pursuers. It lead to broken homes and deserted wives and children. Never approved of either the huntresses or of the self-deluding, gullible fools who allowed themselves to be hunted. I guess I am just an old-fashioned prude.
2
This is very well done and contains some beautiful writing. Thank you.
I take issue with the reference to "heterosexual women," and would like to note that bisexual women might like to ask out a man as well!
Additionally, gay men, gay women, transpersons, genderfluid persons, and people of other sexual orientations and gender identities should be included, and perhaps empowered to ask out people of the same or opposite (or other) gender on Sadie Hawkins day.
Despite the historical roots of the day, let's not keep reinforcing heteronormativity, NYTimes!
@HML Oh for goodness sakes..
by definition heterosexual men are not going to be receptive to advances from gay men.
And Sadie Hawkins Day or the points that the writer is trying to make have everything to do with interactions between MEN and WOMEN, not between men and men or women or women or...
3
We have way too many people as it is, for the planet we have.
So, sure, give it a try!
The birth rate is already dropping - further eroding the value of male aggression should give that a boost.
Thank goodness I had the Mary Tyler Moore Show, The Days and Nights of Molly Dowd, and That Girl— the men in their lives may have hovered over them, but they were independent women trying to navigate and negotiate through a man’s world. They balanced out Janis Ian female victim lyrics.
Isn't taking the first step harassment?
1
Okay, but don't be surprised, in the #MeToo era, if the man you approach runs the other way fast.
True life adventure (stop me if you've heard it): A number of years ago, I boarded a bus ahead of a woman; the door simply happened to stop in front of me. As I stepped up, the woman tapped my shoulder and said, "Haven't you ever heard of Ladies First?" I answered her question with another question: "Haven't you ever heard of Women's Lib?"
There are other things, other attitudes, aside from male piggishness, standing in the way of gender equality.
5
FANTASTIC!
I like this plan! It's like Bumble, IRL :)
I am a female in my early 30s. When I became interested in dating guys, I had no trouble asking guys out that I was interested in. I never contemplated why I wouldn’t. Further, I had no problem telling guys who asked me out that I wasn’t interested in “no, I don’t want to go on a date with you.” Or “no, I won’t give you my number.” (Many of my female friends gave fake numbers - I preferred outright saying no). I don’t remember any guy I asked out decline, but most said that was the first time they had gone on a date with a girl who had asked them. I also always paid my half of a first date no matter who had done the asking. I asked my husband to go to a movie with me first. I also told him I loved him first (but did not say it again until he told me the same). He knew I was ready to marry him first, but I waited for him to ask me as I had taken the initiative with previous other firsts. I think both parties should take turns in a relationship and not make it one-sided either way.
Women do not need a "day" or a "year" or a "decade" or a "century".
Women are over one-half the population of the world and the idea that they need to be "given" rights is ludicrous. It's a man-made concept that has no place in the real world.
Anyone who has ever watched a baby being born knows that every single human being comes from exactly the same unknown place, through their mother's body, in exactly the same way.
There are no "lesser" human beings. Women and socially conscious men must work together to replace the male power-over model of hate-anger-fear-Lies,Lies,Lies-death-destruction-WAR-rape-pillage-plunder - HIStory - to one of gender balance and relative peace.
OUR story beings now.
1
@njglea Women are 50% of reproduction, no more no less. There is no motherhood without fatherhood.
And there is no "male" model of hate, anger or fear. There are humans who do bad things. Many such humans happen to have XX chromosomes and are perfectly happy with oppressing others or receiving the benefits from their men doing the dirty work,
1
Good advice, but can be turned around for men to verbalize their attraction freely as well. Many men are now afraid to express interest in ANY way for fear of an "unwanted advance."
If i read this article correctly, it seems that Ms Neuman suggests VERBALLY clearly expressing interest. It seems a lot of the differences in the way the different sexes express their attraction is a major factor in the the discomfiture that both sides express. Many men, whether from discomfiture of clear communication, wanting to be macho dominant, or age-old tradition sometimes express their attraction inappropriately through physical overtures or verbally through sexually charged innuendo (even compliments on appearance are considered by some as off-limits now).
Watch many of the old movies to see how Clark Gable and other heartthrobs skipped any verbal prelude and, by today's standards, physically assaulted women. This is the message that was passed along to young boys then and still continues and is accepted.
A very large percent of the present population, both male and female seems unconcerned by the POTUS's bragging of his physical "courting" methods.
1
The Sadie Hawkins Day dance in my school required a date. I asked five boys. After the first refusal, I steeled myself for more anguish: I wasn't in love wit any of these boys, but I figured they might want to go as well. They probably did, but not with me. Ouch!
Finally, my best girlfriend blackmailed the boy who liked her into putting pressure on his buddy to say yes to me. Otherwise my loyal girlfriend would not go to the dance with him. So that was how I went to the dance, with an unwilling boy. I kept the dress for a long time: a size four (I was over five feet ten --- considered a model's figure today but a disaster when I was young.
I grew up and blossomed in college and was faced with the conundrum of rejecting boys who asked me out. I knew how that rejection felt and tried to be as kind as possible. But sdome boys didn't want to take no for an answer. I had several friends who were stalked, and one was murdered by the young man. I also had girlfriends who stalked boys, leaving notes on their cars, calling and calling, refusing to take no for an answer and trading sex for the boy's attention.
I finally found a young man whose feelings for me were mutual. Our marriage lasted 12 years before he left me for another woman. But recalling the stalkings, I let go graciously.
After all this, I can only conclude that the whole phenomenon of pair bonding is a fraught mess.
4
With the implied promise of lifetime shelter and support for her man, by her, there’s no reason the woman can’t make the proposal first, or whenever she wants. But I guess that’s old-fashioned.
I told my one and only husband that I wanted to marry him. He had pursued me in the beginning. We were 52 and 53. I was a lot more assertive grown up than I was as a young woman. We'll live out the rest of our years together now!
1
Great piece! Would do a world of good for both men and women.
You want to actually rid the lopsided nature of the boy-girl, man-woman, dating/desire, who-initiates dynamic? Really want to level the field?
One simple step. Eliminate all the Teen magazines and platforms, whose whole business has been to skew young girls and women, perspectives of who they are, should be, how they should project their femininity - all according to some arcane standards of the fashion and make-up industries.
Get rid of them! Dont let your daughters have any access to them. That Seventeen magazine of Ms. Neumans teen years, plus all the dozens more she and her friends and contemporaries, have faithfully consumed into her adulthood, was then teaching things wrong, and still are. Sure their content has updated to include more relevant issues, but they are still promulgating ideals that are wholly unnatural. Get rid of those propaganda devices!
Personally, I have been pursued by women, and it was great. It didn't threaten my masculinity, and I never sneered at them, even if I wasn't interested. It did create a few uncomfortable moments, esp., when it occurred at work, but otherwise, it was great. Wouldn't have met the wife otherwise, as she had seen me, watched me before I knew she existed. Gave me a few smiles, and hellos, to introduce herself, then asked me to join her for lunch. I went in innocently, but soon realized it was an "inquiry date", to see if, like others said, I really was not a jerk.
Women have better instincts in these things.
2
I agree we should strive toward a social environment that does not require women to be a passive partner. As men know only too well, there are risks that go along with making the first move. Rejection stings, even when it is gently delivered. Learning how to flirt is definitely a useful skill, and can provide both parties with useful clues about whether the second party is interested in being approached, or not, before having to put your self-esteem on the line with a direct invitation. Good luck to all.
1
While I still prefer it if the guy makes the first move (yes, I’m old-fashioned in that regard), I recently did work up the nerve to ask a guy out that I liked and was attracted to. It was the most nerve-wracking thing for me and gave me a new level of sympathy for the nice guys that have to make the first move. What was great is that once I put the offer out there and asked if he’d like to get a drink sometime, he immediately took the ball in his court and asked for my number and then took responsibility for contacting me to meet up. For me, that was the best of both worlds: I make it very clear that I’m interested and then he takes some initiative. I think in the best relationships, the responsibility for initiating is shared between partners so that it’s not always on one person because both genders want to feel desired and respected. We dated for a few months and, unfortunately, it didn’t work out but thanks to that experience, I am no longer afraid to make my intentions known to the opposite sex.
11
I ransacked through my romantic history, and I do believe that I have always been the one to overly express interest and/or ask the men I have dated/married for what I wanted.
It worked out well. If at any point in my romantic history, someone had declared that this part of my life was over, I would have to curtsy and say, "Thank you. That was really nice."
It would be nice at some point to be asked by a man, but the most important thing is to have a great love life - no matter who initiates it!
1
Why not aim for honesty from any side of gender self identity? I've known people, mostly men,who are offended by direct inquiry. Some like being the pursuer and don't want to relinquish the power of being the one to chose, leaving it up to the other person to try to attract by pleasing.
Being forthright doesn't have to eliminate finesse or manners. People need to be honest with everyone, especially themselves, and take responsibility for mutually open communication.
I'm surprised that we even need to discuss this so many years after women's liberation, feminism, Title IX, etc. If you like him, tell him. It doesn't have to be dramatic. It can be a conversation.
On the other hand, I have noticed that women who have approached me have also been quick to approach and go off with other men when the relationship hit a rough spot.
There's the question of some underlying biology as well: testosterone makes men more aggressive and hence more likely to make the first move. I know that kind of biological determinism is politically incorrect, but I think we cannot forget that we are in fact animals looking for mates, and basic biology is a factor there.
2
Exactly! Me too means me too including responsibility for being the initiator at times, and dealing with the fear, clumsiness, worry, thrill, mistakes, happiness such first steps engender.
3
Some internal questions need to be asked first.
Is it more important to love than to be loved?
Which gender is more vulnerable when the question of having children arises? How many women are afraid to raise the issue because they're not sure if the man is ready and they might lose them?
2
The wisest comment in this thread
1
@BRUCE
Several men I know have wanted kids and their date/GF demurred, wanting her freedom and career. At least until they teach 42, childless. But that is *their* problem.
I really lik eyour thinking and this may work well for younger women who attract multiple men, but it has been my experience that older more mature men get turned off when a woman their age makes the 1st move. Actually, they get turned off by even the strong suggestion that one is interested in them. If so we must be desperate. Believe me. In my younger days it was never an issue, and I'm 60 now, and actually a very attractive 60. Younger men are still interested, but I just don't see myself with a man 18 tears younger. Of course, this is not true of all men my age, but it does fit a lot of them. Sorry to say, but the rules of the game still do not favor women as they age, no matter how fabulous they may be.
9
I learned very much too late in life that the way to have success in meeting women is to learn to read the non-verbal signals of who is interested in me first and confine my efforts there. This came only after a painful divorce ending a failed long-term marriage and the lesson is wasted on me but I try to teach the young men in my family. I wish someone had told me this before I retired from the mating game. There are no articles in Field & Stream about these things. But my body has aged well if not my soul and it is fun to be able to see the interest now ( which never goes unrewarded without at least a friendly smile and tad of complimentary flirt).
1
Amazonian rain forest, circa 1960s
American female anthropologist talking to a group of teenage girls
Anthropologist has sort of a feminist perspective
The girls start giggling
Scientists ask why
One girl says, we don't know what it is like where you come frm, but here, the boys chase the girls
iirc, rolling stone or the new yorker, circa 1990
I don't know...I always find (well, found...you know, back in the day) that girls and women would always let you know if they were interested...maybe some in subtle ways, some less subtle...really, it wasn't rocket science...
80
@Jim I agree. Guys always know when I like them and vice versa. I never had to play games with guys- oh, maybe just a few good-natured ones - but the right guys were always there. I really do believe that if a guy wants to be with a girl, he will find a way to do so.
13
@Jim
I was ridiculously shy, and bounced around the currents of dating and rejection, never knowing which way was up. I am happily married now, but remember not so fondly rejection of girls I thought liked me, and missing out on others who really did. It should be open, and honest and then we will have less of the he said/she said uncertainty
33
@Ellen
It simply isn't true to say that guys will find a way to let a girl know they like them. Men feel deeply pressured to be confident, brave, and dominant—this forces many men to be very afraid of trying to make a first move (because most men, being human beings, are not simply confident, brave, and dominant—especially when talking to a girl they like). I'm guessing 75% of the time, men never let a girl know they think she's cute, interesting, charming, etc. They just wait a while and then move on, hoping that chance and fate will somehow bring them together with a woman. The other 25% of the time, a girl might hear about it.
43
What's with November 15th? In our day, it was on February 29th.
3
If all women were as sexually aggressive as the writer of the article wants,all sorts of resulting social and personal problems would follow such as more unwanted pregnancies,more VD,more cheating,more broken marriages,more selfishness,less attention to the needs of children,less respect for women in general,a breakdown in longstanding mores which hold society together,etc.etc. Better to stick with the tried and true.
3
@Mike Seriously?!
2
I was a little taken aback that the author of this piece, and the editor, thought it necessary to give this advice to women in the year 2018.
Men know when a woman is open to an invitation for lunch or dinner (or whatever young people do for what we Baby Boomers called a “date”). And I never perceived that men, even back in the 70s when I was at college and graduate school, would have written off a woman just for making the first move. I remember a senior girl in my high school who had a crush on one of our teachers just out of college. Shortly after graduating high school and starting college (which she finished) she went after the teacher with the intention of making him her husband—and she did. He didn’t stand a chance. I admired her courage and willingness to declare her interest in him and pursue him. They are still together.
Of course, one must be prepared for rejection. But that is just part of life. No risk, no gain. And if a person turns you down it is probably for the best in the long run. While some may disagree, I am still a strong believer that love at first sight (usually after a period of exposure and observation) where both parties feel mutual attraction can work.
4
Anything that claims "Only then" isn't worth considering.
2
Females do most of the picking even if they don’t speak. It was always more or less obvious of a girl would go to the prom with a boy.
Also this article would have been insightful say 25 years ago. Now it makes the writer seem like she doesn’t understand youth culture. Not that the readership of The Times is young.
3
@Bill
So you're ALL filled in on youth culture? And what strata of the youth? Teens? Pre-teens? Late teens into mid 20's? Do fill us in...we need your sage teachings.
There is no one set and cemented "youth culture". Every generation has their own characteristics and set of new obstacles. Their beliefs about things like sex and dating, and even gender identity are in flux.
As to your prom claim...I wonder how many girls, over the decades, went to the prom with dates they didn't really like, but due to social pressures felt they had to, in order to satisfy the Clique Gods. ???
The formula was usually slanted in the favor of Who the Guy, the best guys were choosing worthy enough to ask out...what lucky girl/s would make the cut...?
Thats not a equal, or equality aimed formula. Its still all about the male POV.
The new advertisements showing women proposing to men are TERRIFIC.
“Do you want me to release you?” I asked. He shook his head.
This, I remember thinking, is how it should be.
Well, first ask for his consent to be captured by you. He is not your prerogative.
3
Thank you for this important Op-Ed.
You make your points in a low-key, breezy way--but it really does need to be underscored that you've identified the unrecognized flip-side of #MeToo.
Like several other commenters here, I'm a shy man and in high school and college I really struggled with the best way to approach women I found attractive. I never understood playing "hard to get" and I never got why the man had to shoulder the entire burden of making the initial approach. It all just seemed so needlessly complicated. I know at least one instance when I missed months of "obvious" cues that a woman was interested in me. They sure weren't "obvious" to me!
But beyond the awkwardness and the missed opportunities, we will never get past the #MeToo era until women are openly willing to express exactly what they want. RomCom movies (targeted at a FEMALE audience, BTW) glorify an ideal where a persistent male lover ignores all rational obstacles and wins the leading lady over her own objections--behavior that, real life, could lead to emotional trauma for the woman & lawsuits and disgrace for the man.
Women, please do take the risk of expressing your romantic interest--it will empower you, and it will save a lot of time and confusion! But it may also help you to understand how hard it can be for guys to gauge another person's interest (or lack thereof). And if you're turned down, you will also have to learn how to back down gracefully. Believe me, that's not easy, either.
14
Maybe because I'm a New Yorker, I've always valued directness and honesty. And maybe because I'm a sapiosexual who finds brilliant, accomplished and ambitious women enormously attractive, I've had the good fortune of being asked out on many occasions. I can't speak for other men, but I sure loved it! I've never seen forthrightness on matters of desire in a woman to be anything but a positive attribute.
By contrast, the few relationships I've had with women who waited for me to make the first move, dropping hints and using subtle body language to get my attention, never lasted very long. Somehow the agency they lacked in fulfilling their desires carried over into the rest of their lives, and I found that frustrating. Again, I can't speak on behalf of other men, but I don't find submission, helplessness and indirectness in a woman to be the least bit alluring. I want a partner, not a pet.
4
Us guys, we call it 'getting lucky'. The phrase expresses somewhat our happy bewilderment at receiving the favorable sexual attentions of a willing female; a gift from the Universe.
2
I agree with the main point, but it is startling that this essay makes no mention of the fact that LGBTQ relations have long necessitated non-normative gender roles. The assumption of male initiative and female passivity only makes sense in a heterosexual context.
As in many other challenges to normative gender roles and hierarchies, expressions of desire are one area where straits could learn a lot from their queer friends.
3
Having read Li'l Abner off and on when I was a kid, I think it's a safe guess that if Al Capp gave anything to women, he did it unwittingly.
5
There is no doubt in my mind that Ms Neuman is right, absolutely. That said, how do we get there from here?
Is “If you like a guy, tell him.” A roadmap, or a destination?
35
@Gordon Both.
3
I was with the author till she collapsed men’s reality into “narcissism.” Yes, women being more expressive of desire would ease the burden on men to “make the first move.” That’s not narcissism, it’s oppression.
64
Pauline Kael once wrote an appreciation of Cary Grant, saying that unlike the typical John Wayne character, who grabbed women and forcefully kissed them ( and then, weak- kneed with love, they succumbed), Cary Grant’s characters waited until women came to them. Watch “To Catch a Thief and you will see Grace Kelly at work. Pulling fried chicken out of her picnic basket, she asks Cary Grant, “Would you like a thigh or a breast?” She caught the thief!
7
Am I the only person bothered by the fact that Ms. Neuman thought Sadie Hawkins Day was a real holiday and not the invention of cartoonist Al Capp? How little we know and how much we think we know!
BTW, in most other animals it IS the females that select the males.
2
Condsidering the #metoo movement and the general sensitivity around hetero male female interactions, I think it's far simpler if men wait for women to make the first move. When I was young it was hard enough being insecure, but what was worse is the idea of offending someone with a kiss that they weren't in the mood for. So glad to be past all that.
2
feminism: the idea that women are people
7
Excuse me. What year is it?
1
While straight up marriage proposals are mostly transmitted male-->female, demands of "Are you going to marry me or not?" after prolonged "dating" are still mostly transmitted female-->male. Does this still fit the author's thesis?
1
My walker's ready.
2
True equality will mean being equal in all things, including making the first move.
3
If you like a guy do what women have always done. Send an inconspicuous signal. That gives a woman an out. The man should always take the lead. It is the natural order. If the man can't get that done, move on. An editorial cannot reverse that. There may be an exception here and there. But never the rule. That method has worked well since Adam and Eve. The World has billions of people. People are hooking if you haven't noticed. No need to change.
@Steve Yes, and in Biblical times, slavery was the natural order of things too. Care to defend that?
1
@hammond What does slavery has to do with the article being discussed? Just because slavery and many other practices existed in those same times doesn't mean a person condones them.
In the Wodaabe tribe, the men wear makeup and the women select the men.
1
Nice try Ms Newman but it is another example of today's ultra feminists trying to socially engineer society, spurred on by their media wing, the NY Times.
Great strides were made circa 1980 ish with women's rights but after that just like with any great advancement in society the perverters took over ie the neo feminists of today replacing the original great ones.
After 40 plus yrs. of demonizing all men as useless, evil, predators or worse you now want to play nice with them.
Ms. Neuman, women, especially since 1980 have had the right to ask men out. Some do, but many still don't want to.
Don't try to socially engineer relationships between the sexes. If a woman wants to ask a man out she should if she does not, she should not be put under social engineering pressure by you to do so.
4
My first two engagements were initiated by my women partners; the third, by me. I don't attach any significance to the 'third time's a charm' outcome (we've been together 12 years now); both of the women who proposed to me were strong, intelligent, beautiful, and good people. But I do think it makes a lot of sense for women to assert themselves in this way. P.S. - the second time, I insisted on a ring. Still have it.
This was d cute but about 30 years late. Does the author really believe she is the first person to do this? Come into the 21st century
I made the move for the first kiss, and I’ve been married tonthe love of my life for almost 12 years. Go for what you want, ladies!
1
My 70 year old mother recently berated my 15 year old daughter for asking her boyfriend out on a date. Did she get an earful from me! I have always taught my daughter that the girl who sits around pining for a boy doesn't get the boy. You have to go after what you want, in every aspect of life.
5
"Our conditioned passivity leaves a vacuum that male narcissism fills with its version of us."
All too true. That's the way the human brain operates. Takes what data it has and fills in the holes. The more "mysterious" you are, the more likely everyone around you will have created their own "false" impression of you. If that's what you want, success. If not, better to be open.
2
Yes, yes, Ms. Neuman! As a man, I have been facing a very specific problem in the age of #metoo. The new rules are that a man is expected to ask permission at each stage of a coupling. Seems reasonable. However, when I follow the rule, and ask, I find that the response is some variation of "that's the most unromantic thing I've ever heard." Swipe left. This is not an anomaly. Women want it both ways. They want the romance of not being asked and the respect of being asked. You've solved the problem! Every day should be Sadie Hawkins Day.
185
@ShenBowen
I think there's an analagous situation for some men also finding it "unromantic" or at least unappealing for women to show too much interest. Many men seem to find a woman more attractive if they have to make some effort to draw her attention, rather than having her just "fall into their laps". Maybe it seems to them that any woman who would pursue them must be desperate, not attractive enough or in demand by other men, and therefore not as desirable?
When I was younger (mid-40s now) I was much freer showing genuine interest in boys/men, but after feeling foolish and rejected several times (I can't think of any time that things went well after I made the first move), I'm more circumspect now. It makes me feel sad, and I consider myself a successful feminist in every other regard. I do realize that whoever does the asking, women or men, is going to experience some rejection!
25
Maybe you could try, I don't know, asking in a way that isn't totally unromantic?
13
@Carl Z. In my experience, many women, certainly not all, find the very act of a man asking permission to be inherently unromantic (that is, no matter how romantically I frame the question, the woman might not want me to ask permission). As evidence, let me cite the huge market in romance novels targeting women. The men in these novels do not ask permission (romantically or unromantically), they rip bodices. In the world of fantasy, women are excited by this. In the real world, this could be EXTREMELY frightening. (Some, or many?) women want the safety of men asking permission, but they also want the excitement of the man in the romance novel who doesn't ask. Some women might be fine with a man asking 'romantically', but, in my personal experience, quite a number of women think it's wimpy to ask. Women expect men to be more 'intuitive' than they really are. Having said that, I'm sure there are women who are fine with a 'romantic' asking of permission. Different strokes.
26
I think Sadie Hawkins Day is a great idea but not all women will remotely practice it. Most women prefer to have a man "read between the lines" and make the first move. I see so many single women complain about not having the right man come along. If you see the right man out there, make the first move. If not, another woman will.
Making the first move doesn't have to be asking him out for date but simply start a conversation or smile at him each time you see him. Men are always looking for "hints" that she is might be interested as well.
Advice to women. Don't act like you don't want anyone to talk to you or that is exactly what you will get. If you see a guy you are interested in, speak your mind! Don't wait!
6
Beware the risks of a good idea being twisted into something closer to its opposite (as, in some rather crucial and unfortunate ways, has happened with 'MeToo'):
Yes, it really ought to be "no big deal for a woman to say, 'I want,”' as well as 'I don’t want' ”), and for uncommitted women to feel allowed (and competent) to take the initiative in approaching those they are attracted to, as well as being enabled and capable of coping with or encouraging or discouraging others taking the initiative towards them).
But it ought not to be a must to be active rather than reactive.
Every person should be allowed to decide, based on the situation, and their own feelings and judgement, how assertive or non-assertive they are.
1
I think there's an opportunity ion the Sadie Hawkins tradition to teach young boys to allow themselves to be loved too. At such a crucial juncture in the lives of every man, adolescence, being asked out on a date or being invited into any kind of affectionate relationship can help dismantle the education of "it's time to grow up, and man up" -- which is to say, be in control as much as possible.
2
What a great idea! I’m one of those people whom my deceased wife referred to as “dense”. Way,,way back a girl asked me out on SH Day. I was stunned , to say the least. “Huh? Does that mean she kinda likes me ?”. Remember, I said I was dense...
And, I still am.
7
I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas. In the winter of 1962, I was a 9th-grader in junior high school. On a gray January day, I was on the bus with our basketball team as we headed across town to play one of our city rivals. I was scorekeeper. When we disembarked, the team headed to the locker room and I went to the scorer's table to set up shop. That didn't take long and I had time to look around the gym. Off in the left corner, the rival team's cheerleaders were going through their paces. One girl caught my eye, and I continued to look in her direction throughout the game. The following year, our junior high classes entered high school. On the first day, I saw her standing in a crowd with her friends. I made some inquiries and found out she had a boyfriend. Even if she were unattached, I wouldn't have had the guts to approach her, let alone ask her out. The following year -- junior year -- I immediately noticed that she was in my English class. One day in late September, the bell rang for the mass shuffle to the next period. I was gathering up my books and papers and looked up to see her coming in my direction. She was smiling and I looked behind me to see if she was approaching someone else. But she stopped in front of me and asked if I'd like to be her date for a friend's party. When I'd regained my composure, I said yes. In July 2019, we'll celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary. I'm confident this would not be the case if she hadn't approached me first.
24
Heart warming! My son who hadn’t dated much in high school was approached by the prettiest girl in the school his junior year. He had the best first love of his life anyone could ever have! Best wishes on 50 years for you and your “bold” wife. She did the right thing.
2
I love the fact that the comments are filled with men cheering heartily for women’s empowerment. I’m sure joining that chorus. I’ll say that when I was dating age, I admired women who would just ask me out. I still do (well not me specifically, since my wife has cornered that market)
4
There are many young girls who are not asked out by young men. They sit at the sidelines waiting for someone to pay them attention. It's agony. My mother, who also had not dated in high school, told me the usual: smile, stay thin, don't cut your hair. She asked my grandmother what I should do to get a boy to ask me out. My old-fashioned, Christian grandmother surprisingly replied: "When you see a boy you like, say, "Hi, I've been watching you and I like what I see. What do you say we go out Saturday night and see how it goes?" My mother was aghast. "She can't do that!" My grandmother said, "Oh Honey, life is short. Go for it." This was the best advice I ever received.
However, it is difficult to pursue men. I found that men will often go along with a woman who makes the first move, but unless they feel "butterflies," which seems to me to be code for being the initiator, they will shut down. I asked my husband to marry me. We married, but he never felt the level of passion he needed to be happy. We separated, but remain best friends and I support him in his new relationship. The love of my life, a man I met in grad school who I indicated an interest in was always shocked when I expressed desire for sex, for a relationship. Sadly my desire pushed him away, he said. My (reasonable) sexual requests made him uncomfortable, resulting in erectile disfunction. He was not the only one.
Could this be because the man's testosterone was not engaged from the first?
6
@Kate Candy Was it your paternal grandmother giving you advice? Hopefully so because if not it's kind of sad to think your mother didn't hear the same advice from the same woman many years earlier.
@Kate Candy Your grandmother gave you great advice! I think you know it, despite unfortunate miscommunications with immature men.
Just FYI.... Guys are often oblivious to the fact that a particular woman likes them. It's not that they wouldn't be interested, they're just not paying attention to the cues. Discretion is appreciated, but everything might work a little more smoothly if women were comfortable initiating a phone call or a date.
4
Twenty-five years ago, while working in the college chemistry lab, my friend and I decided we were sick of waiting around to be asked. We made a pact to ask out 3 men apiece. We both ended up married to one of the three. I think we chose well, and God has a plan!
1
I have a 14-year-old daughter and this is perfect. If she likes a boy she lets them know it. She is so much more confident and happy than when I was that age.
6
I’ve always wondered how many positive experiences I’ve missed because of a combination of fear of rejection or appearing as too forward. One thing I learned - never approach someone you’re interested in when she’s with friends. The “mother hen” dynamic takes effect and the ranks close. Luckily my late wife knew what she wanted and met me more than halfway, making sure she visited my office, ostensibly representing her computer company, late on a Friday afternoon. After she solved my technical issue I asked her “How will I ever repay you?” She quickly responded “You’ll think of a way.” 2 hours later we were having dinner and were together for 24 happy years until her untimely death two years ago. About 5 years into our marriage she revealed she had researched me and had told her friends she intended to go after me - hence arriving late on a Friday. I’m so glad she did. So ladies, go for it - you might both go on an incredible adventure together as we did.
I miss her terribly.
14
This very idea occurs to me often I participate on Classmates.com. I thought I was almost invisible to girls and never dated any of my classmates in high school. It wasn't until college that a girl was forward enough to ask me out. And so it goes.
As a youngish-looking man with an average learning curve, when I was younger, I was rebuffed many times more than accepted, even though I was careful to look for signs of interest before trying. To make things worse, there were always one or two guys around that the women who rejected me would actively chase.
It took a toll on my self-esteem, and I had to shut down emotions to protect myself.
As I grew older, my learning curve finally kicked in, and looking youngish was no longer a liability. But I remember how hard it was on my psyche back then.
Any woman who wonders why guys sometimes have trouble showing their emotions need look no farther. Meanwhile I wonder if women are ready for the challenge. Maybe you have star power and it will be easy, or maybe it will continue to follow the biological/reproductive model where for normal people, men contend and women choose.
3
Yes, indeed, and many men have met women who enjoy sending signals to men they have no real interest in.
I encountered that with a woman in university. Always putting her arm around my shoulder and often offering flattering remarks. Once she even rested her head in my lap as we watched TV.
All of my housemates - men and women alike - said, "Dude, she obviously likes you. Why don't you ask her out?"
I did and she turned me down flat saying, "I had no idea you felt that way about me. I don't feel that way about you."
At the time I blamed myself for misreading her signals.It knocked me off balance and put me off asking women out for the rest of university.
Now I know she was just using me stoke her considerable ego.
Yes, I know there are men like this. Sadly, as our culture changes they'll get more chances to tease women like I was teased.
My wife "caught" me 61 years ago on Sadie Hawkins Day when I was 15 and she was 14.
We've been happily married for 51 years (the long 10 year gap allowing us to finish high school and university before getting married).
It was a great idea that should be resurrected.
11
In a round-about way, my wife (of 43 years and counting) proposed to me. While we were lying in bed, she asked me why I hadn't proposed yet. I answered that I "always just assumed that we were going to get married." And that was that. It just seemed obvious and natural. I wasn't down on one knee, but flat on my back ~ just like she was. Perfect.
12
Many women pride themselves on being more emotionally perceptive than men. However, in our society, it is generally the "clueless" men who risk rejection by making the first move. This has never made sense to me.
True equality would seem to require all of us to risk rejection in order to reap the reward.
6
I'm in complete agreement with Kate Neuman. And I've had that opinion probably since I was a teenager, in the '60s and early '70s. In fact, when she was probably in her mid-teens, I advised my decade younger sister not to wait for guys to ask her out, but to ask them out if she was interested. Some guys, I knew partly from experience, were shy, and love should not have to wait. She took my advice. I think she was the one who first asked her husband out.
I also told her, when she asked me about the birds and the bees at age 9, that the act of love was accompanied by a really good feeling.
2
At the age of 21,circumstances brought us to-gather briefly and this beautiful girl expressed her love openly and followed me around. We could not continue a meaningful relationship because of so many cultural obstacles. At the age of 78 ,I still remember her almost daily in any pensive mood ,because that was the love which was deeply felt by my soul because it was totally free of any social customs or unwritten laws .
I recommended this to who ever I came across in life regardless of gender ,not to hide your true love and be vocal about it . There will be one less regret in your lives !
8
I didn't know about the November date. When i was young it was only the last day of February and maybe also the years where there was a 29th.
We had a Sadie Hawkins dance. I did ask a guy who accepted but didn't go further than that.
1
I spent years waiting for the boys - and, later, men - I liked to make the first move. It was what girls like me did. Then I reached 40 and realized that I was still waiting. Why? Because our culture said I should? Pish posh! So a little over eight years ago I told the guy I had my eye on that I was interested. He was a fairly traditional guy but he apparently liked my boldness because we're still together and, in two weeks, are getting married. He proposed, by the way, but not until I had made it clear - in words - that I was ready to get hitched whenever he was.
Moral of the story: we can spend our days conforming to an arbitrary definition of female roles, or we can cast aside cultural restrictions and make the first move in all of the spheres we visit. But, yes, so long as we bow to what our culture deems appropriate, we'll never be free.
10
This is a great piece and something I hope younger men and women will give some thought to. Even as a child growing up in the 1980s, I never fantasized about a fairy-tale marriage proposal. When my my then boyfriend and I decided to get married, it was just a conversation. I didn't ask him and he didn't ask me, it was more like, hey, the time has come, let's get hitched. I never understood why women have to play a passive role, and particularly why women are supposed to REVEL in that passivity. While we are talking about this - let's add in engagement rings and women changing their name when they marry. Sexist, outdated traditions that should go the way of the traditional proposal.
5
I'm struggling to recall if I ever had the experience of being confused about the difference between harassment and asking a woman out.
I'm struggling, because so many commenters seem to express confusion about this (citing the "MeToo" movement)
let's see (and in my past experience, the following were at various times from me and/or her)
"would you like to see x movie?"
"would you like to stop over at x cafe and have something to eat?"
Possible answers:
no.
sure.
it's really quite simple.
7
As a feminist, I have always believed in the world described by Ms. Neuman & it may be approaching. I do, however, feel compelled to point out a couple of practical points:
1. When women make the first move, they are assuming the traditional role of men, which also means there will at times be rejection. Women need to learn to prepare themselves for that. In this article, I didn't read any examples of women being turned down. No, everything was a RomCom, w/ the man always pleased to be asked. That's not real life.
2. In a world in which women far outnumber the number of "marriageable" men & in which sex is freely available, the most desirable men are acutely aware of their advantage & they exploit it. They have multiple girlfriends, refuse to make commitments, string women along until they're old enough to worry about their biological clocks & then drop them, etc. Once there is a relationship, the balance of power frequently shifts to the man as the woman battles patriarchal pressures that make it difficult to pursue a career & have a family, & aging, with the fear that the husband will meet a younger, prettier version of the wife and divorce her.
Because of this, one of the few meaningful gestures a man can make is expressing interest. If a man isn't willing to take the risk of being rejected to ask a woman out, he may not be all that interested & worth considering. I don't think that making it even easier for men is the solution, at least right now, or not for all men.
16
@Lifelong Reader Spot on. I just made a very similar comment since no one had seemed to mention the downsides of being the one to initiate, namely rejection.
I also totally agree with the point about relationship power and why it is important for the man to initiate due to the shift that happens immediately upon the relationship beginning.
I'd also add that many women will find the increased intensity of competition when women have to win men to increase stress and anxiety. That's sort of the point of "slut shaming" between women. When one woman competes too hard it makes everyone else's life harder.
All of that said, I am for greater assertiveness of women in dating and other spheres. But I would love to hear more women here discuss whether the potential of active rejection and competition is really something they would take on.
2
No one likes to be rejected. People who are on the side of the asking take a risk and while those who are conditioned to steel themselves to it (which leads to the kinds of problems we see today), it will take a lot of effort to change the culture.
The best experiences IMO are when it happens organically, without explicit pursuit by one party or the other. I've had women come on to me and I wasn't attracted to them and it was awkward. I've done the same (though I think in the vast majority of cases there was some initial chemistry but it didn't go past the first or second week, in many cases for reasons I can't fathom).
When you meet someone new, they're in their own space with their own problems (or lack thereof). Chemistry alone isn't enough for sustrained romance in most situations except for the initial hookup. It's like what they say about psychedelic drugs: set and setting (mindset and location). Time and place has to be right. If it is, then it doesn't matter who goes first but people may need to accept this first (or perhaps most people have and I'm the one who realised this much later in my life, after a lot of encounters, and several years into my 20 year marriage).
1
In high school I was too shy to ask a boy to our Sadie Hawkins Day dance. Years later I proposed to my husband and he accepted. The marriage lasted 30 years. Maturity has taught me that if you want something enough it's worth taking the initiative. More women should try it.
4
Unfortunately, a mother's advice to her daughter, regardless of the circumstances, still is, "It's the man's place to ask, dear." And also his to risk the pain and humiliation of rejection.
6
Thank you, Ms. Neuman, for sharing your experience. It is refreshing to see that the younger generations see each other as human beings - not female or male - and work/play together just because they like each other.
You say, "As the MeToo movement threatens to uproot the patriarchal assumption of women as objects, we need to recognize that women’s self-denial is connected to the mentality that allows men to believe that our desire is their prerogative. Our conditioned passivity leaves a vacuum that male narcissism fills with its version of us."
Today's "movement" is much more than #MeToo. It is over one-half of OUR society - women - standing up and shouting out that the patriarchal system must go to the dustbin of HIStory. Socially Conscious and self-aware Women are stepping up to take one-half the power to bring balance to the world.
It is important that we remember that it is not men in general who are the problem. It's the centuries-old male power-over model that we have lived under and that every system is built around. Men have had to try to survive the model, too, and many have lost their lives in the hate-anger-fear-death-destruction-WAR-rape-pillage-plunder method of uncivilization.
It's Great News that socially conscious men are also stepping up and helping put an end to the male power-over model that constantly destroys OUR lives.
OUR story begins now.
3
I was pursued, indifferent, finally got a clue. We eventually decided, together, to get married, there was no proposal. She was before the pursuit, a good friend. She, after 40 years, is still my best friend. Recommended.
7
I see that most of the top-rated comments so far are in support of women taking a more assertive role in dating, but I think that hides just how many women will view this idea really negatively.
It's easy to talk about how great it is to go for a guy and get him, but I think many women will find the active rejection that men face in pursuing mates very hard on their psyches. It's one thing for a man to approach a different girl rather than approach you, it's another thing when you approach a man and he says "No thanks" and then is seen talking to another woman later.
The affirmation of being approached and desired is just very powerful, for men and women both, but let's be honest, more so for women. I know many women who would be happier with a less desirable man that approached them over one that didn't; knowing that their mate really desires them is more important than a more desirable mate.
That said, as a man, I would definitely love to see women be more proactive, as most of the male commenters so far have also indicated. But I think it's more than just cultural norms that have prevented this up until now. Rejection is not fun.
10
Two thumbs up. Making men make the first move, then expecting all else to be equal was never a winning strategy.
9
Having been rebuffed many times for coming on too strong to interesting men over the years, I've kind of lost interest. Now, over the hill and into the valley of the shadow, I'm always surprised when they call or when a good looking guy smiles at me on the street. Looks like I want to be swept away even in old age. Romance lives, ladies.
14
Every serious relationship I had was initiated by me. I, too, was impatient and didn't want to wait. They were surprised and flattered - always an advantage. I felt like a pioneer and that was thrilling also. Women's liberation movements of the 60's and 70's helped me to become bold. And it was truly liberating.
7
Because men were always supposed to be the ones to approach and women never approached, I had the feeling that women were not quite human.
76
@Michael Chaplan True, and I think that the more we dwell upon our differences, the more we either put women on pedestals as though they are expected to be perfect goddesses or the more we put them in the gutter as though they are expected to be subhuman life forms beneath contempt. The same applies to men who are expected to be either god-like or smarmy knaves. On the other hand, if we see men and women as being human, with more in common than not, the more likely we are to be forgiving of each other's human foibles and the better and more peaceful Life can be.
11
@Michael Chaplan
Seriously?
8
@Playa Yeah. Seriously. If I hadn't seen women approach OTHER men, I would still be wondering.
3
What a great piece. From my own (male) perspective, I've observed women shamed for showing authentic desire (by both men and other women), and that's always made me want to throw up my hands and intervene ... female desire is a beautiful thing. A precious thing. I'm not sure why our society is so uncomfortable with female desire ... but I think it might have to do with powerful men who might worry that the women they try to dominate and control don't *actually* want them. Better to squash womens' desire outright, make it taboo, than to admit they're not the object of it.
This piece also makes me think of one of my favorite moments in movie, from the original "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (with Kristy Swanson and Luke Perry). At the end of the movie, after Buffy has killed the toxically-masculine arch-vampire, she and the male lead (Luke Perry) dance:
"I'll bet you want to lead," says Luke's character.
"No," corrects Buffy.
"Me neither," he replies.
10
I am still floored how many women in the US want a proposal for marriage on the knee and a ring. I grew up in Holland in the seventies and didn’t even know what dating was until I came here. My husband is 13 years younger than I am. We talked endlessly about why we should get married and why we might not get married. It was a decision not a proposal from either one of us. No ring. We could buy better things with the money like a down payment on a house in the same year we married. Happily married after 19 years when we are having a hard time I often think back about our discussions around our marriage decision. It feels better.
505
@Cm But I take it you've exchanged gifts for various occasions, that are special to you? We certainly didn't do the engagement ring and our marriage took five minutes in the registrar (after a few months of discussion) but now my wife wants a 20 year anniversary celebration party (superhero costume themed). We can afford it now but I agree marriage is about the commitment and getting into it is a decision. Legal commitments ensure protection but I don't think it's a big deal as much as the actual desire to be together.
As far as who asks who, my wife can be traditional in this regard like many/most women and perhaps many/most people (who doesn't want to be taken care of). My daughters also but I think they've internalised society's message about how things should be done.
3
@Cm
The “Knight in Shining Armor” fantasy. The armor rusts, the knight ages, weakens and eventually starts to fall off his horse. When a marriage is based on this fantasy it is then that he finds that the partner and friend who he though would help hold him up when that time came is staring at him in disgusts as he lands in the dirt, turning on her heel and walking away, leaving him to face his decline alone.
9
@Cm As you may have noticed by looking at the way our country is run right now, rational decision-making is not exactly an American cultural trait.
30
Yes, yes, YESSSSS! A thousand times yes. It would be so liberating for men and women, boys and girls. Girls and women should feel completely comfortable expressing desire. It's normal, it's natural, it's honest. And they are entitled to want what they want.
Watching my daughter struggle with how much interest to show in a boy is difficult. I don't know what to tell her. But I will forward this column to her.
And making every day Sadie Hawkins day would prevent so many clumsy, unintentional "me too" moments, which can be caused by the boy/man feeling he has to "go for it" because the girl/woman might be interested but just isn't making the first move and he can't tell if she is (the predatory "me too" moments are another story, I'm just talking about the clumsy ones based on misunderstandings).
PLUS, there are so many shy boys (like I was) who find making the first move incredibly scary. Terrifying. I found out years and years later about several girls who were as interested in me as I was in them, but we never dated or because I was too shy and they were inhibited from making the first move. My first kiss was in college. Sad.
The freer girls and women are, the freer everyone is. It's a better, healthier world. Bless you, Kate, for writing this.
Viva la liberación!
631
@Derek Flint I was always afraid of rejection although a psychologist once told me that I was not shy; I just needed to be in control. My first kiss was when I was a *senior* in college! Not touching and not saying anything, the girl had just made it unmistakable that she wanted me. Ever since, I will never make a move unless the woman clearly wants me to. That way I don't have to worry about rejection.
23
@Derek Flint I'm certain your 36 year old daughter will appreciate this gesture.
2
@Derek Flint
I agree. How many times do we hear stories of women saying "I kept hoping he would come over and talk to me." -- umm... maybe he was sort of hoping for the same thing?
But it's also true that even if a woman goes and talks to a guy, there are still mating strategies that are relevant...(just like if a guy goes and talks to a girl first--it's not just a done deal...). Some guys want a girl to let him know, but he might feel confused if she doesn't give him space to come towards her as well... Men are finicky creatures (too).
12
It's okay by this male.
Many of us guys are not so great at detecting the more subtle signs of interest. Or, if detected, there's doubt about their authenticity - as in, is she really flirting with me, or am I imagining it because I find her attractive?
Despite the reputation of men being crude aggressors, I have shocking news: Not all of us naturally operate that way.
35
I met my wife only because she initiated contact. She said Hi. She thought "ok, I try".
That's all I have to say.
5
Better yet, tell the boy why you like him. What attributes appeal to the girl, and what characteristics does she think are best in the boy. The male will not know how to respond to nebulous concepts, make them concrete for him. They he will know what areas in his life to accentuate.
137
@Richard Mclaughlin
Uh...accentuate not being a self-absorbed jerk...? That seems to be the most commonly mentioned characteristic girls and women mention they dont like in potential dates/partners. Self-absorption.
But that message needs to come from the larger culture and its lesson teaching mechanisms. Look at entertainment...most male characters are dumb, self-absorbed jerks, tolerated by (too often too beautiful) wives and girlfriends...who always save their men from their own selfishness and stupidity.
The classic and tired; "Boys will be boys" meme has overtaken script writing in Hollywood.
4
"The[n] he will know what areas in his life to accentuate."
Or, he might know that someone is attracted to him for the wrong reasons.
3
@Boregard
That message needs to come from PARENTS. It is parents who raise children, not "the larger culture and it's lesson teaching mechanism, entertainment, etc. "
Society doesn't raise children. Schools don't raise child. T.V. doesn't raise children. The internet doesn't raise children. Hollywood and the larger culture don't raise children.
It is the job of parents to raise their children, and to teach them to be decent human beings, which parents do by modeling such behavior, as well as by teaching their children how to behave in other ways. My father wasn't a self absorbed jerk, nor was his father, nor are his sons,(my brothers.)
It would be awfully difficult to be a self absorbed jerk while donating the majority of one's free time towards helping others, which is what my paternal grandfather and late father did.
3
A beautiful idea. I support completely.
Even though I am a man, I think I understand (perhaps imperfectly) what you are talking about. I don’t know why, but I’ve never felt comfortable expressing desire. I always feared that expressing this, would be a disgusting thing to impose on a woman. This is a humiliating way to live. It makes you feel unworthy of love and desire. It breaks my heart to think that you and so many women might feel like this.
93
Good luck with that. Men are socialized to be the pursuers, not to be pursued. Unless you can change the way male children are indoctrinated by their mothers and fathers to initiate, pursue, be the first, etc., I would advise using the time-proved strategy of making your way into a man’s heart by being someone he realizes he can count on. I say all this as a gay man, so I have a sense not only of how a man behaves who is interested (biggest hint: he continues to call/text/initiate) vs. one who feels he is being cornered (he pushes, if not runs, away). So unless you want to chase him away, I would still advise NOT being quite so openly demonstrative with a man you don’t know well enough to know whether or not it will work to achieve your objective of landing him for yourself.
5
I've always treated every day as a 'Sadie Hawkins' day - why not? If I'd waited around in my teens for diffident Irish 'mammy's boys' to pluck up the courage to ask me to dance, I'd still be waiting... I asked my first husband to marry me, and did an 'assumptive close' on my second - he had asked me (I said 'yes'), but never actioned it, so after 7 years of living together, I arranged the wedding! I had assumed, until I read this, that all 20th/21st-century women were like me ...
7
Absolutely! If you want the good ones, it pays to ask. I was so shy my first two girlfriends had to ask me out. So, what came with that package? To me, no meant no. I actually listened to my women friends instead of telling them what they needed to do, how to act, what we would do. If you want a macho man, wait for it! However, you may get a tad more than you bargained for. BTW, married to same partner for 35 years, two great kids, love them all as much now as when it was all new.
93
@otto
I'm glad it worked out for you, but not every guy who pursues women is a "macho man" or someone bent on controlling his woman. I (heterosexual female) only ever dated polite, quiet, sensitive types and they all managed to make the first move. By your logic, women who are "aggressive" enough to pursue men would be a bunch of maneating terrors that you'd be taking your chances with.
Some people like to ask, some like to be asked. All kinds of approaches work out just fine.
3
@otto: You are entirely correct. I had no use for macho crapola. I got my shy guy.
4
@seabiscuit
Sorry, the term "his woman" speaks volumes.
5
If I accidentally "bumped" into a woman, I would be accused of assault. The double standard lives.
7
"She wanted it" - there may be some guys with such repressed and medieval minds that they sneer if a woman makes her desires clear, but I don't think many. I can't imagine such a man would be all that attractive anyway. Pro tip: when a man recounts such a thing, it is humblebragging disguised as faux surprise. As a sorry group, we are insecure, confused, and afraid of rejection. Any macho bravado you may see is for other guys, not you. It's not about you. You're on the right track here, so ladies, go get some.
74
@George...I agree. That phrase is kind of revolting, and, I suspected that way back in grammar school. However, I have a few friends who are widows in their 60s and 70s. Some of the stories they’ve told me about dating T this age were stunning. It may be that jerks simply never change.
4
Women, put away your “The Rules-Time-Tested techniques for capturing the heart of Mr. Right” book (Published in the 90s, not the 50s) if you dare.
5
As a kid, my Episcopal Church Camp, Bement Center Camp in Charlton Depot, MA, held a Sadie Hawkins' Day for the end-of-camp dance. It was a blast. The boys lined up near the dining hall and got a "Run!" command, the girls tore off after them. We ran all over camp like wild Amazons. Whomever you caught, picked you up at your cabin for the goofy dance--where everyone just hung around together anyways. I have very joyful memories of that ritual and trying, desperately, to catch Jeff Ware! Long live Sadie Hawkins Day!
6
I would LOVE IT it a woman were to just come right out and say hi to me. While I was raised with very liberal values, I am bombarded by societal messages that I am not attractive to women unless I am extremely tall, extremely handsome, extremely cool, extremely athletic, the total package, all signifying in some way or other the quality of my package and the way I deliver it.
9
@Danny
Try being a woman.
1
Well said. Being empowered to be direct about your wants as well as what you don't want is a far more complete picture.
5
I have been asked out and done the asking out at various times over my single years. Women are flattered when we are asked out, men flattered when women are confident enough to do the asking. Men are nervous when asking someone on a date, as are women.
The ability to accept rejection if the answer is no is a fundamental part of the exercise. Practice makes perfect and if you don't practice rejection, you're setting yourself up for a lot of disappointments in life. Getting out of your comfort zone to do something you'd never think you'd do (within the confines of laws) is a great way to see your own capabilities. Women who've never jumped off that cliff and asked someone out don't realize how the thought of asking someone out feels, knowing there's a 50/50 shot of being turned down.
People as a whole need to learn that a "no" is not fatal, that you'll either work harder to get to "yes," (not in a creepy, stalker kind of way) or move on, knowing that there may be several "no" responses before a "yes" from someone.
We celebrate bravery and heroic behaviors around the world and yet, we can't seem to get out of our own way when it comes to the world of relationships, being brave enough to face a potential rejection.
Having jumped off that cliff several times, I can say, the men who said no had no idea what they were missing by saying no. The men who did say yes, were my kind of people...the people who don't believe in status quo.
13
@Amy
I had a friend who wanted to approach a guy. It didn't sound promising to me as he was already involved with someone, among other things. She asked my opinion and I told her that she could do what she wanted, BUT if she followed through she had to be prepared to be rejected, just like a man in that position. She did, it didn't go well, and she expressed anger about the guy, which I told her was unfair because as she described it, he was polite and respectful, just distant because he wasn't interested.
It's important to be realistic about the hurt of rejection. Women already tend to be less secure because of the way society and the patriarchy constantly gnaw at them. Women who face racism have additional challenges in approaching men who aren't part of their group. For some men, they are some kind of neutered creature or an exaggerated porn fantasy, not a nice woman you'd want to date.
If you want to approach a man, by all means do it, but prepare yourself.
2
@Lifelong Reader - I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe it is because my father was in sales, I was in sales, shyness and acceptance and understanding rejection is easier for me, but it's a good lesson in life that not everything is going to go your way. There's a million reasons why someone says no to someone else, but we immediately go to the worst place in our heads. He or she could be busy, they could be otherwise involved, just getting out of a relationship...or they could just not be interested. Sometimes the why isn't as important as the lesson that we survived it.
We as humans don't like or love everyone we meet. It is human nature. The sooner we teach young women how to handle rejection, they will have a toolkit at their disposal for life.
1
I remember Sadie Hawkins Day so well and hadn’t thought of some of the sad references mentioned in this piece. It’s 100% true. When women feel free and normal to ask a guy out, that men share 50% of childcare also that childcare be assessable to all; then woman will be really free.
In my lifetime.... doubt it.
3
My husband and I have been happily married for over 23 years. People still remark on the fact that I asked him out, rather than vice versa, with both verbal and non-verbal reactions which hint at reproach or some lack of propriety. I was and remain a staunch advocate of the author’s approach. While I have never been accused of subtlety, let’s face it. None of us know what tomorrow holds. If there’s something you want, just go for it. If you fail, at least you’ll now you tried!
47
My wife and I have been married for 38 years. But in this case it was a friend of hers that called me and asked me if I would go out with her to one of the functions we had at work. I said sure even though I did not know much about her. I am grateful to her friend ever since that day.
6
@JCM
Things have not changed all that much - an introduction is still highly valued - possibly the only way to bring together thousands (millions?) of lonely people. But let's not forget - many companies make their money on keeping people lonely. They would not like to see this situation get better - and perhaps that is why it is the way it is for most people.
A few days after meeting my husband at a party, I asked him out. We married 5 1/2 months later, twenty three years ago.
22
Nothing wrong with a woman expressing interest (BTW, there are many ways to do this, even if a woman wants to be more traditional). However, it is also important for men to be free to pursue their romantic interests, even in workplace settings. There's a good deal of compromise that needs to take place in having healthy sexual standards - compromise between men, and women, as well as between liberals and conservatives.
3
I think this article suggests a resolution of the "me too" movement: women just have to be better communicators about what they want and what they don't want. They must say what they mean, and mean what they say. Women have to take risks, too, and not just wait for the men to take all the risks.
Everybody must be emotionally centered enough to speak up (soon) if they feel abused, or decide not to. We all deserve to be treated with respect.
22
This has been my experience. I've generally felt free to "ask a woman out." Almost always they said no. So most of my relationships were with women who made that first move. But it was usually so subtle as to be undetectable. It would take a while for me to be sure what message I was getting, then I'd be the one to "make the first move" for real. Thing is, more than one woman then said some version of, "didn't you get my signals???" Rather frustrating, esp since some of those women I came on to who said no felt it was an unwelcome advance. As this article concludes, it would make a different world for men, too, if we knew women were likely to make that first overture, at least more likely than in the past.
10
I agree with all of this.
However, the double-standard now is that women want this freedom/choice, and men have been threatened with ruination of careers and jail time for doing the same.
19
@dmckj
There is a line between a sincere expression of interest and harassment - and it begins when an individual fails to take "no" for an answer, no matter what gender the people involved are. The first time someone hits on someone is a freebie - the "hittee" is free to accept or refuse and the other person is obligated to honor the decision. If the same person continues to push the boundaries or escalate the attention level after a refusal has been clearly expressed, that's harassment.
10
Men’s lives have not been “ruined” for asking women out. No one is proposing that women start grabbing and assaulting.
11
@Rebecca Shore Actually you're not correct. In my workplace, we had an accusation against a male, that was later born out to be innocuous but very nearly derailed a promotion for him. This was just a small thing but led to a huge back and forth.
It can be simultaneously true that woman have been mistreated but that today there are overreactions and destructive approaches being taken against men. And even if this is wrong, many many men believe this. So your message isn't making a difference because it doesn't comport with reality.
4
I love this, Sadie Hawkins day everyday. I would think the fellas would like this. Who doesn't like being desired? I am a decade older than you and I did propose marriage to my husband.
I am glad the controlling patriarchy is fading. I hope women do not buy into this concept that men are in charge of us. I would hope the men would like to share control with their partners. The best long time relationships I observe find both partners equal. Here's hoping society keeps evolving.
Nothing better than freedom!
11
@Patsy
The problem is not the men or the patriarchy, it's the women not having the courage to face rejection. Asking someone out is a scary thing, and if you can put that on someone else, most people would. The idea that this gives men power is wrong, it gives women power and allows them to avoid their fears.
2
Numerous ways have long existed for women to indicate to men they have interest in them. Almost all men can recognize those signs and act accordingly, if desired. If a woman demonstrates those signs, and the man does not follow up, face it. He is not into you. You can ask, but odds are poor. The other rule in force since the Stone Age, and Miss Manners verified it is gender neutral, is the person asking the other person out pays the tab. If you start asking guys out, be ready to reach for the purse and not just your share.
The rules have always been there for women to use. Nothing new here.
11
@Michael Blazin Yeah, not much has changed since the Stone Age. Or the Iron Age, Bronze Age, Victorian Era etc. Men made more money then and make more money now, had more power then, have more power now. That's why they pay.
1
I am no Geroge Clooney by any measure but I have encountered on very rare occasions the stuations women must find themselves in all the time.
I was asked flat-out, by a woman at my employ, that she wanted me in the way a man might want a woman he desires before knowing her. I was flattered but had started a relationship I was very happy with - so I declined her offer.
There was no follow-up anger by either of us and things equilibrated to where it was before her offer but that moment never left me.
I've been married to the other woman for 35 years now and we have raised a wonderfully smart, determined and assertive happly married daughter.
8
Mutual respect and sensitivity should be the rule...then do whatever you want. The old rules don't apply now. They were, for men, with the best intentions, so much work. The pressure is off.
6
A woman in her period of fertility desires sex if she knows it or not, and her behavior will most likely reflect it. If she is free to express it, she may get what she wants. If she is too eager to satisfy these biological urges, she might find that she doesn't like him that much as a partner, or that he has some issues with himself that prove to be a turn off. It takes time to get to develop levels of commitment between two friends. Although trust is built up over time, personal dynamics and body chemistry can become more important in the short run.
4
Wait. Men are fertile, too. The same applies to them. Thankfully, we all also have brains, and consciousness.
Isn't using all of these things, and more, what makes us human?
In case I'm not being clear, I fully agree with the essay's writer.
2
The arc of happiness bends toward equality.
A classic win win for gender equality.
24
I love this so much. Exactly 7 years ago today, I invited my now-husband to a crummy bar for "life advice," which was a ruse to get him, a long-time friend, alone so I could tell him that I liked him. I couldn't even drink my beer because my hands were shaking so much. I had chosen the bar because it was quiet enough that we could talk but loud enough that I could probably cry a little bit without anyone noticing. (I didn't end up needing to cry.)
It's our first year of being unable to return to that bar on November 15 to celebrate...because we have a baby at home. So this article (and my new knowledge that November 15 is Sadie Hawkins Day...what a weird coincidence!) will have to suffice.
167
This kind of thing happens much more often than has been "reported."
Often a serial (hetero male) dater, and not exactly by choice, I've been in a few relationships. And the most successful have been ones where I was pursued in one way or another.
Happy to say, my current relationship is going on 6 years, and nicely too. Here the courting was most decidedly mutual; indeed I give her an edge in that department.
5
@Meghan
Viva la coincidence!
3
@Meghan Your story made me tear up a little. You have a way with words. Happy to hear the happy ending!
2
My wife proposed to me. She wasn't about to wait for me, I had no interest in marriage (not that I was going anywhere, I just couldn't see the point of getting married). I took a while to say yes, during which she shopped for engagement rings. When I pointed out that I hadn't said yes, she said "you will eventually." I occasionally read the Miss Lonelyhearts columns in various newspapers, and a relatively large number of the letters are "how do I get my boyfriend who I've been living with for 3 years to propose" and I'm just like why can't you just propose? You have to somehow trick him into it? Hasn't marriage come up at some point in 3 years?
4
I can't help but see the contrast. Young men are told today that if they kiss a woman without permission they have committed sexual assault. Ms. Neuman wishes that all women find the courage to do the same. That comes across as a mixed message. Is it any wonder that young people are involved in fewer relationships than in past generations?
.
But perhaps Ms. Neuman is right. We're teaching our young men that touching, flirting, or tenaciously pursuing a woman could result in his getting turfed out of high school or university if that woman chooses to be offended. I suppose we'd better teach the women to initiate contact.
.
Don't be surprised if the men aren't that receptive to your advances, though, ladies. The thing most young men learn about trying to meet women is that there is a lot of rejection involved. A young man probably has his eye on the same few young women that every other young man wants. I'm sure the same happens with women. Affections are often not reciprocated; those who get approached a lot usually have many to choose from. Add to that the fact that those young men are not expecting to be approached, and are often afraid of women (fear comes from ignorance), and it's a good bet that most young women trying to initiate a relationship will be rebuffed, most of the time. But that's life; young men learn to not give up. At least a young woman is unlikely to be kicked out of university for stalking if she tries again.
44
@Tom I read fear in your letter. Women are not to be trusted to know the difference between romantic interests and sexual assault. Young men should fear they'll be kicked out of university and workplaces for clumsy romantic advances. Be assured, women all know the difference. Why is it so hard to acknowledge that sexual predation and deviant sexual behavior is so common that many men just think of it as normal?
5
Assault statistics alone should tell you that this comparison does not wash. Nobody is advocating that women push themselves on men, and men are not worried that a woman who shows interest may become dangerous. Meanwhile, every woman has to pay attention to advances from any man—she has to gauge whether or not she has accidentally been so friendly as to encourage him, or so discouraging that he will feel justified in assaulting her. It's better for all of us for women to make the first move, and dangerous for none of us—not statistically. When men start walking only in well lit areas at night, paying heed to any woman who could possibly be following them and assessing how they would get away if they had to—or when women stop having to do so—then you can start making comparisons like this.
4
@Tom
You know, I'm getting a little tired of all the belly aching from men that they're being asked to think a little bit about their interactions with women, including when they touch them, kiss them, or try to have sex with them.
That's what all these gripes boil down to- "OH NO! Men are SCARED! How can we KNOW this metaphysical, unknowable question about whether a woman wants to be touched?! WHAT IF WE GET IT WRONG? If I compliment her I'll be kicked out of uni!"
All their lives women have been carefully analyzing how to behave around men so that we are not raped by you. Welcome to our world where you have to *think*.
"Chooses to be offended." Chooses? What do you mean by this? I know what you mean: you mean to imply that men's behavior is never *offensive.* A woman "chooses" to be offended and therefore the responsibility rests entirely with her instead of with the man who engaged in behavior that made her uncomfortable. It's not the man's behavior that's ever the problem, in your world, it's how the woman responds to it. Men like you believe that women should respond to male's behavior like *you* feel they should, irrespective of how it actually makes her feel.
In your world, her actual subjective perception of your behavior doesn't matter and is invalid. You imply that women arbitrarily decide to be offended at things that are not objectively defensive-- ie, false accusations. You imply that women's feelings don't matter. They're arbitrary.
8
Many layers of modern sociology and politics in an extremely well written piece.
5
I proposed to my husband 20 years ago. He was very chevaleresque and I loved it BUT I always refused to let him pay systematically the tab when going out (and other expenses, like trips...). My mother was independent and I guess I partly took it from her (but I believe it is also part of my character as my siblings are not as “untraditional”). When I proposed, I told my husband to NOT give me a diamond ring (no blood diamond for me, thank you very much). He still asked me if I minded him asking my parents for their permission (which they found cute: he was so nervous even though he knew it was going to be a yes). I let him organize the wedding (he wanted the « whole » thing, I would have preferred to go to City Hall but one has to make concessions when he/she loves someone, right?). I am lucky I found this very intelligent man who accepted me like I am (I did the same that being said). He was surprised when I told him I didn’t understand the concept of wedding registry (we already had plates and glasses), but after he explained that it would made the life of family and friends easier, I offered to do our registry in a bookstore. He was taken aback at first, but as he is also an avid reader, he eventually agreed that a “book registry” was an option. We are still working on reading books we received as our wedding present. Ladies, if you love a man, think he is the right one, propose. My husband admits now that he loved it.
26
@Jeanne
Wow! You shared the expenses of dating while going out. What a concept. That's very out of the ordinary and you are to be commended.
P.S. I'm sure that my comment will get lots of hateful remarks, but I have often found it odd that a man is expected to pay money to spend time with a woman... It makes it pretty difficult for male students and other less well-healed men to find a relationship without going broke during the search.
5
@John I lived from 18 to 28 yrs old in France (free college!) so maybe that helped but I was always extremely independent. I would find it actually insulting that a man paid systematically: it would mean I am financially dependent. In France, they don’t have this culture of dating. Women are much more independent (Mai 68 left an impact). I proposed to my husband when I realized that for him it was important to be “officially” married and he was too afraid to ask. He came to the US as a child but is originally from the Middle East and for his family it was a must. He is totally American but traveled enough to accept my “weird side”. He learned French which to me was much more touching than a diamond: not easy to learn French! I learned Arabic (I only speak it, can’t write or read it). I didn’t think I would ever get married, I would have been as happy without that piece of paper but hey, I picked an “old school guy” so made concessions. The contract could be something different (like the other options available in France: concubinage/PACS). I think it is important to have some kind of contract especially when there are kids involved. Finally: I kept my last name: why change it?
1
I was a sheltered girl growing up, with my own sexual and adolescent questions typically ignored by my mother- in fact, she tried to steer me toward the men that she thought were appropriate mates. My desires and attractions were considered irrelevant, leading to some truly awful relationships. When I finally met the man I felt undeniably happy with, I was the one who initiated, after months of long distance friendship. We’ve been happily married for years, and I’m so glad that I stepped outside of my mother’s- and society’s- expectations.
26
I asked my husband out first. I took his hand first. And I proposed. I knew he was the one in part because there was nothing weird about me doing those things. I've always teased that I have no "game," Everyone knows how I'm feeling. But honesty, and courage, and trust are characteristics of which I'm proud. And, as history, if not culture, shows, they are characteristics that are profoundly feminine.
19
Gee, and I thought Sadie Hawkins' Day was once every four years, leap year (February 29th). I got married that day in 1964 to a man I had called and asked out on a first date. The risk? He could've turned me down. I considered it would have been his loss.
25
What a clever, profound and timely piece of writing. You have found a way to say so much that needs to be said.
27
As a woman, I've long felt that to get the person that you want, you need to make the first move. If you wait around for the right person to do so, there's a high chance you're going to be disappointed. It's better to try and fail then to not try at all!
It's worked for me – I've been with my partner for the last 6 six years. I asked him to marry me two years ago and he said yes! The trick – find a partner that is secure enough in themselves that they're not challenged by a strong female.
30
Always hated the Sadie Hawkins Dance.
The girls who asked me weren't homely; I just had no interest in them.
One girl asked me in September before the school year had even started.
Am glad those days are years ago.
5
Evolutionarily speaking, females of many animals are choosy and act coy with respect to males. Why: they have limited sex cells, have to gestate the offspring for a lengthy period of time, and in mammals must lactate to feed the baby. All this is energetically expensive for them and a huge parental investment. Males on the other hand produce energenetically inexpensive sperm well into adulthood. Have have much less parental investment than mothers do. Thus, it pays for females to be choosy based on the displays and advances numerous males make toward them.
So, how much does deep evolutionary legacy play into human women’s characteristically coy behavior? How easily will women have it to be flexible in their mating behaviors?
18
@Scientist - First, you're quite right. Second, this is completely irrelevant to the discussion. I stipulate that there is a "deep evolutionary legacy" driving pretty much everything for humans, including mating behavior. It does not, however, have the last word, since people are notorious for making choices that are not exactly consistent with whatever programming may remain in their amygdala or whatnot. I've read so much of this "biology is social destiny because SCIENCE", that I'm sick of it. Give it a rest.
3
@Scientist You can still be "choosy" and make the first move.
2
@George I asked questions about how constraining the legacy is. I did not say it has the last word. Humans are flexible and changing attitudes encouraged by a society can permit such flexibility to emerge. This article is mostly talking of western cultures. When will traditions in the Middle East and South Asia will permit such an emergence of woman making the first move. There may be dire consequences for her that a western woman will not face.
1
"As the MeToo movement threatens to uproot the patriarchal assumption of women as objects, we need to recognize that women’s self-denial is connected to the mentality that allows men to believe that our desire is their prerogative. Our conditioned passivity leaves a vacuum that male narcissism fills with its version of us."
As a teenager I was trying to make my way and socialize effectively albeit sometimes in a clumsy way, without the embarrassment of being rejected. Only now to learn that I was an agent of the oppressive patriarchal, narcissistic suppression of women. If only I had known! Yet, aren't these years about trial and error experimentation (of course with limits like no means no, etc.)?
4
I well remember that back in the 60's many universities had a Sadie Hawkins day race and dance afterward. Don't know if that would work today.
1
I was born in 1938. Loved your article. We have to remember that men were also exposed to the same “taboos” as women.
Back in the 60’s, things started changing with the way women, especially on both coasts, approached sexuality.
I was living in NYC. I was an entertainer which gave me certain advantages I probably wouldn’t have had if I were say, an accountant. But I still observed that in a bar, it wasn’t unusual for a girl, a woman, a female to approach me and ask me to dance, or talk, or whatever. What caused that sudden change? I think it had to do in part with the advent of “the pill.” No longer did a women have to rely on the male to not get her pregnant.
In the animal kingdom, it’s still the male that initiates contact, but it’s the females scent that draws two together. It’s called chemistry. Both animals and humans were designed to come together to not only propagate, but in the higher beings, to live and work together for “The Family.”
Society is constantly changing. Mores also change or evolve. So called “Free Sex” is retrograde motion for any enlightened society. So what is the answer? How can females be truly free? I saw this happening last week during the elections. Society has to be educated to the FACT that women are man’s equal. They’ll never be the same. We weren’t designed that way, but together, we’re greater than the sum of all the parts.
16
What exactly is the purpose of this article?
Women have been asking men (at least where I live) for a long time.
6
I started dating my future husband in graduate school. We were both about to take a big step in our careers. He had gotten a post doc to do research in Germany and I had just gotten a grant to support my Ph.D.research in Panama. It came to me in a flash that he would return from Germany married and if I was ever to have children, he would be their father. I told him, I would go to Germany with him if he would marry me. After I picked him up from the floor he said yes. We had a poverty stricken jet-set marriage for 3 years and then were able to settle together in the same state, town, house. We have been married 40 years.
63
@Andrea Worthington: A great story, and a good lesson!
1
How many wonderful relationships in this world are lost to men never knowing that a woman is interested in him, and women being culturally inhibited from revealing that interest? Great piece.
131
@Jerry McTigue Women are culturally inhibited from revealing that interest? I must have been inadequately socialized- I am as subtle as a train wreck in pursuit of a possible mate. Not always wise, but never subtle.
3
Me Too is not going to have a happy ending. Men are wary and on the defensive. Old time compliments are extinct.
13
Compliments are possible, in fact welcome, that aren’t focused on one’s physical attributes. Think outside of the box- pun intended.
17
@Dan Green
I've heard this too from men. But outside a work environment, there is nothing wrong at all about compliments, in either direction. The problem is just when one person feels harassed or pressured in a power dynamic, such as at work.
5
@Treetop
That may be your opinion, but it does not match my personal experience. I have learned, through less than pleasant experience, that offering compliments, regardless of whether inside or outside the workplace, is no longer welcome, and it is best for a man not to offer them to any woman but one's spouse.
Whether intentionally or not, feminism has increased, rather than reduced, the level of alienation, mistrust and hostility between men and women. Perhaps women may not perceive things that way, but many men do. That is unfortunate, but it is also true.
4
I always thought women comfortable enough in their own skin to be forward (by the convention) and ask men or make the first move was a good thing. Equal should be equal, right?
8
It’s important to acknowledge that every time men take the initiative and ask women for what they want, they are honing this important skilll. A skill that matters in all areas of life: career, romance, etc As a young woman in NYC I was asked out all the time. looking back I realize that the most assertive males often ended up with a date. So there’s more to it than male versus female. There’s a wide spectrum of traits within both genders. I agree with the author that there’s a stigma attached to women asking for what they want. There’s also a negative stigma attached to men who are not assertive and struggle with asking for what they want (wimp, sissy, etc). It’s important to acknowledge this. Now that I’m older and need to assert my wants and needs more, i realize that I never honed this skill because the asking was done for me. I’ve started practicing and it’s not easy to expose yourself to rejection whether by asking for a raise or asking someone out.
71
@Jay The key is to ask before you're emotionally invested in the answer. If you're indifferent as to the outcome, then being rejected "ain't no big thing" and your ego doesn't hang in the balance.
Women and girls should feel perfectly free to ask always keeping it in mind that men and boys can be sensitive beings too, so no touching (or accidental bumping), no seductive exposing of what are generally considered to be private parts, and no means no. Now, let the fun begin!
14
Yes! I’ve been pushing my two daughters (got no sons, but when you adopt you get to choose!) to take charge of their lives and not wait for the guy to ask. My older daughter hadn’t dated before her senior prom but she did ask a boy to be her date. I was so proud.
She pursued her current, and first, boyfriend now that she’s in college. I’m waiting on our younger daughter to see how she approaches courtship. But I’ve high hopes. She’s pretty feisty.
But don’t forget, when your daughters marry, they should have equal say on their married name and not default to his. And don't cop out with a hyphenated one, unless the groom does the same. The default should be that she keeps her name.
Or maybe flip a coin or do an online poll on which name should prevail. My wife kept her name. We then gave her surname to our first daughter and my surname to our second. That's fair, right?
I tell them the decision for many names should be a slam dunk by noting every horrid one that somehow remains in circulation. Like those of some current and recent members of Congress: Brat, Swett and Crapo. Need I say more?
9
I could not disagree with this article more. Let it be known that there is at least one female New York Times reader who loved the excitement and mystery of waiting for the “guy” to ask her out. Loved the game playing. Women DO have power in the old system. I do not want to dictate to the reader or any other women who agree with her as to how they should pursue men, but I sure hope that they don’t dictate to women who have my sensibilities either.
7
Indeed. Why shouldn't women do 'half the work' in the realms of attraction and connection? The burden the current tradition puts on men is often experienced as overwhelming, and can lead to terrible misunderstandings, and resentments (among other difficulties!). Women will not become 'free' by this -- and nor will men -- but it would be a positive evolution.
9
I remember going to college in Boston and going to a Sadie Hawkins dance at MIT. I had never heard of it before then but my friend dragged me along because I was shy in high school and didn’t know how to approach girls.
Then a beautiful intelligent girl asked me to dance. We dated for a semester then drifted apart. I never knew that girls/ women liked me because they were raised to suppress their desire and I was too shy, so nothing ever happened for me until that Sadie Hawkins dance in my freshman year of college. But this helped my confidence with girls and women for the rest of my life.
49
Great article and a wonderful concept. I was always relieved when a girl would take the lead. I grew up in a household of women so maybe it felt more natural that way— men and women on equal ground, equal responsibilities, equal say. I found “traditional” courtship confusing, difficult and much less enjoyable. I’m all for the change that always was there.
12
"So I grew up believing that girls were supposed to be wanted, but we were not supposed to want. If we did want, we were never, ever to show it."
Most of us did! It was even harder for painfully girls, like me, where permanent wallflower-ship was the prize of never ever letting them know how you felt.
This article is great on identifying the problem but not so great on how to overcome. Attitudes are extremely hard to change--hence the male backlash over #MeToo.
Just think of the Kavanaugh hearings, with so much male entitlement and arrogance on full display.
No, I think America--indeed many anglo-saxon countries-- has a long way to go. The men in my life pursued me first, except for one who as we broke up, accused me of "being desperate."
That's a damning thing for anyone after a five-year relationship, but it just goes to show how ingrained social attitudes remain to this day.
31
Some men don't like the female pursuing because they feel they are being relieved of their masculine duties on account of incompetence but they can quickly get over that. However I would remind women to try to hold something back, anything in order to maintain a bit of mystery as well. But if the man forfeits the seduction on account of insecurity, end the mystery part
6
And this is the problem that the author is pointing out. I get how you feel, and as a product of the same instruction I have always felt bad about making the first move, BUT, it’s a short slide from a man’s wanting to ask a woman out to a man ‘s feeling that he has the right to take from a woman (or partner) what he wants. I get that Biology is a tough taskmaster but Civilization has been all about taming the biological imperative.
9
well, and I would suggest that all men become wonderful housekeepers and cooks. Are we giving advice on how to be appealing to half the population? Seems kind of weird. One person's mystery is another person's affectation. We're all turned on by different stuff.
10
@Ellen Tabor No, it is not a "...a short slide from a man’s wanting to ask a woman out to a man ‘s feeling that he has the right to take from a woman (or partner) what he wants."—at least not for anyone that doesn't have mental problems or a personality disorder. The only slide going on is the slippery slope fallacy in your statement. A man asking to take a woman out has nothing to do with him feeling entitled to take from her what he wants. The former is fueled by romance, the latter is powered by dominance and possibly sadism.
7
I was raised by two smart, talented and caring parents. However, my mom was the dutiful wife, keeping the house and garden clean and attractive, cooking meals. My dad and brothers, took care of the cars, mowed the lawn and "brought home the bacon". The females were told never to chase men, to be coy and always attractive; marriage and babies being the ultimate goal. The boys were sowing their oats and much was made of their conquests. So much conflicting information then and now about being pretty, a bit helpless, and submissive, and yet often the brunt of crude, offensive and aggressive speech and conduct in billboards, songs, film and tweets when too bold, too sexy, too empowered, too smart.
I believe we should all be heard and respected for the way we walk through life, as long as we are not harming others. Judge yourself and your behavior and do your best. We'd make so much more progress if we turned more attention to our own self-improvement.
12
@Josephine Jackson I am a smart, talented and caring parent and ALSO keep the house and cook meals. There does not need to be a However in between the two phrases.
8
@Daisy
There was for my mom, perhaps not for you. Her reality was hers and yours is yours, which I do not dispute.
1
A wonderful idea. As a quiet, slightly introverted (and slightly hard of hearing) guy I have always had trouble picking up on subtle clues or hints. I know I’ve missed opportunities to date women I liked because they were so subtle, it was beyond me, or didn’t occur to me what they were communicating until weeks, months or years later.
Everyone excels in different types of intelligence. Ladies, I’m brilliant in a few areas, but connecting socially is not one of them.
207
@Moderately:
Yeah, that's the heck of it, when you somehow realize what was happening well after the fact - 'Oh, she was flirting with me. Duh! Damn!'
I think girls and women are SO much more socially aware and socially connected than most males, they assume the signs of interest they show are as obvious to the guy as they are to them. But guess what? It's often not the case!
13
Call me old fashioned and as the song goes "I'm old fashioned but I don't mind it." But I still think that boys and men should do the asking for dates and marriage. Certainly there is nothing wrong with a girl/woman letting a boy/man know you are interested. There must be a casual tone from the female but not aggressive. Subtlety is the way to go to win someone over.
I like the old fashioned way of flirting and letting things go from there. If a woman is too aggressive she may scare away the fellow as men sometimes will do with females. Not being too anxious and interested seems to work and sometimes playing a bit hard to get can win his heart. It has over the centuries and the times have not really changed no matter what our society says today.
13
in the current climate , old fashioned flirting is not realistic or safe from the male perspective. Women will have to take the initiative, it is their turn.
6
@WPLMMT
Sigh. I do miss flirting. (altho' my experience is that it it was never all that typical in American men. [I don't miss harassment. they are different]
We are pushed and pulled by attraction we can't explain logically, and trying to codify all behavior all seems impossible.
But I'd say that neither the man nor the woman should be "aggressive" if that meaning stalking or hounding or not taking no for an answer. But anyone should be able to be assertive about their interest.
That playing hard to get? That's the epitome of gamesmanship and hard ball coyness. And it plays to male power, it flatters the male ego, which is a piece of what has caused such a mess.
1
Feminists tend to imagine that relationships should start through perfect mutual escalation, where there's no need for a forward or unwanted advance. Instead, one party always needs to be the first to breach plausible deniability of interest. This is still where most women protect themselves by having the men risk offence or rejection.
71
@Watercannon: I disagree with you about what feminists tend to imagine. What the author proposes here is rather that women should be free to share the risk of offense or rejection--or the rewards when that doesn't happen.
What she is proposing, more broadly, is that people should feel free to express themselves. Then fewer of us would have to bear the burden of trying to imagine what someone else is thinking or feeling.
23
@Watercannon I'm all for women being confident and forward. That said, there is some truth to the saying, "Heav'n has no rage like love to hatred turn'd / Nor Hell a fury, like a woman scorn'd."
2
@ADM Nor a rejected man who punishes his ex by posting revenge porn and ruining her life forever.
3
I totally agree with the point of view here. I grew up in New York City, and having sisters I always felt it an injustice if they were not treated with the same respect as men, or if they experienced unequal pay or were limited in what they wanted to achieve in their lives.
Fortunately, my sisters were phenomenally successful in their chosen careers despite having to scale obstacles that men did not have to. This says more about their grit and determination than less about our culture, at least at that time.
I was drafted into the Army when I was 18 years old. I always thought that was the ultimate discrimination. Women were not drafted, and at the time, the ones who volunteered were denied a combat assignment despite their desire to seek that role. How unfair is that? If a woman is qualified to be a fighter pilot, who has the right to deny her that option? Or if she wants to be a doctor, a police officer, a firefighter?
In recent years, I have been involved with women who wanted to be "taken care of" but yet wanted to assert their independence when they chose to do so. That's confusing is it not?
I have also been involved with women who had no problem at all picking up the check on a first date if I drove a distance to see her. I didn't feel threatened in the least. Rather, I felt I was dealing with an equal partner.
99
My high school, Benet Academy, Catholic and Benedictine, was the embodiment of patriarchal power in the 1970’s. However, way back in the dark ages, in addition to our three formal dances, Homecoming, Midterm (after the tests) and Prom, we had a very special dance called TURNABOUT. That was the dance where the girls had the pleasure of asking the boys for a date. It was always held in February, so I it wouldn’t appear to relate to Sadie Hawkins Day, but I’ll bet that comic was the origin.
We girls LOVED it.
27
In the Wodaabe tribe, the men wear makeup and the women select the men. Are they considered objects? I think at some point, we must do away with language that makes it difficult for us to recognize that we are all just looking to be loved.
96
This is a refreshing view, as a man I was always taught that the desire was natural, but to be controlled about it. The whole thing always left me very very confused about whether certain gals in school actually liked me or not, there was a whole enigma there, and it serves no real good other than to mess up lines of honest communication.
Many men end up thinking that they have to 'take it', some feel they have to be super impressive, have the right job, car, house, clothes etc to attract the proper desired mate, but they spent so much time on superficialities that they do not really know what they are looking for in another person, and what that other person is actually looking For.
And women are trapped on the opposite side of the wall and are not much able to communicate what they are REALLY looking for.
So many go towards the 'Bad Boy' types because they can defend themselves, and then end up battered or in hard, drug-ridden lives of poverty due to social programming towards women needing defenders, and they gravitate to the opposite sort than they should due to bad communications of wants, needs and expectations all around.
This seems to be the story of the human condition, not just between men and women, but with any sort of different group and the institutionalized politics which surround it no longer fitting to the cultural needs of This time.
We will ALL be freed when either sex can freely ask, and be accepted or denied, and not have it be a crisis for anyone.
37
Absolutely. I chose my husband years ago, asked him out, proposed. We’ve been very happy. Breaking gender norms is making the world a better place.
91
This. Feminism includes this.
I asked my college boyfriend out for the first time, made it clear I wanted him, and asked him to marry me. We’ve been together, happily, more than 27 years.
When we stop waiting for a fairy tale, the life we want can be more likely. Make your own moves!
378
Tradition is all well and good and certainly has its place, but I feel the thrust of this piece is hinting at a future that is not far away. If you listen to the likes of Jordan Peterson, you will hear that women adhere to particular habits because it is innate within their genetics and instincts, but it doesn't have to be this way: the chased can become the chaser.
Speaking as a red-blooded male who has been on many dates that ended in a moment of uncertainty - should I kiss her or not - I can say that it would be both refreshing and calming to have a woman make a move on me, and not the other way around.
122
@Dave L
When a guy wonders if he should kiss a woman or not, he probably should not.
Haven't you hear of Me Too?
Those mixed signals can get you in trouble.
4
@jbartelloni: You can always say, May I kiss you? Problem solved.
7
@jbartelloni
Don't kiss your coworkers. Not challenging. No one from the Me Too Male Annihilation Society will come for you.
It's amazing to me that men insist in the right to run the world but then pretend they just can't!!!!1 navigate a simple interaction like not kissing their coworkers.
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There was this girl back in the fifties named Joanna who made a point of chasing after me on Sadie Hawkins day and giving me a peck on the cheek despite the fact that she had beautiful straw- colored hair and was way better than me in school.
Her family moved away one day and that was that.
I hope today that she’s happy and well, has had a good life and occasionally thinks of me.
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@A. Stanton The smallest moments seem to make the most vivid memories. That's a good one, Stanton.
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@A. Stanton: I clicked on the replies to see if she had reported back.
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@A. Stanton
"I hope today that she’s happy and well, has had a good life and occasionally thinks of me. "
So tell us, how often do you think of her?
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I don't know that we are not already there. Girls call boys all the time, and if anything, get the ball rolling. Sometimes they are direct, and sometimes they have a friend who is direct. But they are not waiting around; there is a plan being executed. Essentially, they announce, "You are going to ask me to prom."
Some people are passive and some aggressive, and some just understand flirtation better.
Most of the time the guy - or the woman - who doesn't pick up on the signals being sent, often in large, frantic, unmissable semaphore, is happy being at sea.
The tricky part is after that - once you are together. Because that is when being honest and open and direct rather than flirtatious, or passive, or fostering the idea that "he should know what I want" "she should know who I am if she really loves me" counts. No one should expect another person to be able to read minds, especially not the people you actually care for.
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@Cathy
We're not "already there". Every day I see women who believe the only graceful position is to be independent, and to give a vague smile. They don't turn around after you pass, they don't hold eye contact, and it is squarely on the shoulders of the man to either give them unwanted attention or to fulfill their wish that they (the man) make the first move. This may be true only of older people, but as an older person, I only wish we were "already there." If someone gives a clear sign - not hurrying off, or holding eye contact, or actually smiling at a man, then I feel I'm not bothering her. I have been trained to be polite, and that means avoiding what a stalker would do - like showing more than casual interest in a strange woman. I'll believe we're "already there" when I see it.
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@Cathy "You are going to ask me to the prom" says we're not there yet. Why can't she ask?
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I'm matured enough to remember "Sadie Hawkins Day" in the comics. I thought it a wonderful idea then and I do now. My wife asked me out from the start. Yes, equality of genders is liberating for men as well as women.
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@RobT: As a teenager in SC, way back in the 1940s, I recall that girl-boy relationships often began with the boys being asked, often via a third party or mailed invitation, to attend some social event sponsored by some girls' club or sorority. The invitation specified the young lady who was to be escorted. I never recall turning down such an invitation! It worked out just fine. Sadie Hawkins thinking, dressed up in middle class formality?
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This would solve two problems:
1. Save me the disappointment of being turned down.
2. Allow me to remain peacefully alone if no one asks.
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@Harry Wow, Harry, that is a very passive approach to life!
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It is far better to be turned down than to waste your
time chasing someone who doesn't care about you in the first place.
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@Harry
Women certainly don't enjoy being peacefully alone if no one asks.
Women are subject almost non-stop to societal pressure to "find a man" and when it's not that, they're being cat-called on the streets or "chatted up" by some male stranger in public. Even for the few women with actual peaceful solitude? That isn't socially acceptable either — they're pitied spinsters or forever Miss Havisham, while men are "confirmed bachelors" that other men celebrate.
“Conditioned passivity” is mentioned .
I’ve always lamented how often this is often/usually, apparent as being “coy”.
While often not, but often yes, coy for me was a “poker tell” of being somewhat dishonest. Manipulative even. Moreover however, it’s absence was also a tell of being well adjusted, confident, and mutual - capable of being equal. Also known as a strong woman.
While my friends struggled with consequent elements of dishonesty in their relationships (usually their own fault!), I’ve always been so content that the women I’m attracted to are strong enough to not be held back by “ wait, they’ll come to you” coy.
I do not mean to say that if a woman plays conditioned passive/coy she is not strong or honest. But I am, talking “tells” here.
Being attracted to confident, strong, and well adjusted enough to not be held back by coy, women, is something that has always been a win for me. And her. Especially now in my wonderful marriage.
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@Tim Hipp: Have to agree with your preference in women, but .... my wife of some 65 years tells me that I in no way fit her ideal, as a teenager, of an attractive beau. Only persistence convinced her that nerds who wore suits and ties were better than the "drugstore cowboy" type.
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@Tim Hipp
If only your attitude was the norm!
Ms. Neuman makes a good point - women are still not allowed to openly want to partner up with a man without a whole lot of shame and other baggage being added into the mix. My "Year of Dating Adventurously" online in my mid-40s would confirm this. I discovered that making the first move - sending the first note - never elicited a response. Ever. But engaging in what Neuman called active passivity almost always worked - men would see that I checked out their profile more than once, for example, and then they would send me a note. It was really frustrating but, it seems, those were the rules of the game.
I do feel more hopeful for my children, one of whom identifies as non-binary. For them, it isn't just that the usual rules are off the table - there is no table. I think this can only be a good thing.
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@I got out
The opposite is true as well, men are not free to prefer to be passive in a relationship without having their manhood questioned.
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@I got out:
Gee, that's funny. This male's online dating experience was exactly the same. Well almost: Maybe for every 10 or 20 'first emails' there might be one response.
I've decided I'd rather be my own company than waste time trying to date online. It's too damn depressing!
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I’m old. So when I was in college in the early 80s, we had an annual Sadie Hawkins dance. It was super fun. I don’t know if today’s youth would enjoy that or just think it’s retro in a bad way.
As a male, I must say that it was nice to be asked.
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I had a policy in high school and college that if a boy had the courage to ask for a date, I always said “yes” simply because it took an element of fearlessness to put himself “out there” for potential rejection.
A few of those boys would not normally catch my eye and we had a great time. A few were boys I had hoped would ask, but the dates were a bust. I remain a huge advocate in my conversations with younger women, to give everyone who asks at least some time for coffee. ( Creeps and known bullies excepted)
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@Benetrw You are to be congratulated. I accepted such dates only because my father told me I should -- how hard it was for a boy to ask and that I should accept him. Most of the time I did, but not always, I admit. There was a lot of peer pressure from friends to not date un-cool boys.
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@Benetrw The world would be a far better place if people thought like you. In this day and age of endless options easily available, most women wouldn't give most men the time of day, much less a fighting chance. At a certain point it is truly damaging to put yourself out there and get shot down 100% of the time. It destroyed my self esteem and meaning of worth for about a decade.
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This piece is very well written but seems to be based on the assumption that gender based behaviors are entirely derived through culture- all we need do is shine a light on the failures of our culture and our culture can become ideal by changing the way we act.
I believe that not only the vast majority of evolutionary psychologists studying the research take a different view, but also the mothers of children of both genders. Boys act differently the moment they leave the womb- personality is affected by genes and hormones.
This isn't to say all boys act "masculine" or all girls act "feminine" or that there isn't within genders the traits of the other only that the behaviors are partially determined by nature and not entirely by nurture.
We can work to provide the genders equal power but we can never make them equal.
That said, I agree with the sentiment of making every day Sadie Hawkins day, or at least that both men and women feel equally comfortable pursuing their romantic attractions as well as all other ambitions.
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@alan haigh Being "equal" should not be seen as being the "same". Equality is equality before the law as individuals. Not that everyone is the same (This is what Jefferson was talking about) Every human is different yet all are equal. Each individual's behavior is informed by complex physical, emotional and cultural motivations. To encourage changes in gender behaviors is not to say that boys and girls should be the same. Citing "behavioral studies" to deny the possibility change in gender norms due to genetics (boys will be boys) is an old ploy of the patriarchy and should always be looked upon with skepticism.
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@alan haigh
Even if we are born differently, that does not mean it is not biologically inherited culture (akin to theories of evolution; or say inherited trauma).
But beside that, it has been shown that the way in which we treat kids, even babies, depends on their gender. We hold crying girls close to our chest, but let boys face the world when we comfort them.
In Northern Europe it is quite normal to have women go after men (I know this from experience). Is this supposed to be behavior that goes against their gender? Or do the Nordic countries have different genders to Americans?
There are enough contradictions in the 'logic' of gender-construction to show it doesn't make sense. Men are supposed to be hunters and women coy, but men are supposed to be silent, only talk when necessary, where women apparently blabber their mouths whenever.
Yes, women should ask men out if they want to. They should also be able to buy a men a drink or hold the door for them, when and if they want to.
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I don’t think “waiting until boys make the first move” is anything but a culturally enforced rule for dating to make women seem submissive. Asking someone for a date or clarification on a relationship is hardly aggressive, it’s just communicative....actually it’s a very womanly thing to want to organize social events. Why we relegate this to worried boys is beyond me.
I am very feminine in a traditional way, yet I often called interests on the telephone and asked them to dances. Otherwise in a class of 55 people, with the boys asking younger girls out too, you’d likely not have a date at all.
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