You report both that "the plan was agreed upon without a vote" and that "The cabinet vote was a culmination of months of often tedious and difficult negotiations with the European Union." Please clarify. What was the nature of the cabinet agreement that seems to have immediately collapsed?
Everybody now knows that Brexit was sold under false pretenses. Everybody now knows that Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, and the rest of the Leave people were in cahoots with Vladimir Putin. Everybody sees how quickly Boris and Nigel ran for the exits after Leave won. Everybody knows that Leave could never win another election. But still, England plods on towards disaster.
Untethered to Europe, England has always been trouble. It made deals with other empires and autocrats to undermine its European neighbors. England was never an ally - only an opportunist. Its economic power was derived from merchantilism sustained by military power and arrangements with despots. Somehow this is called 'Global Britain.' Yeah, sure.
Americans was drawn to England not only because of a shared language and culture and, perhaps, a shared view of the world. England was also our doorway to Europe - Europe's culture, economy, and politics. Now, that doorway is being closed. The 'special relationship' will inevitably change.
Britain is a long established parliamentary democracy. It is not, and no country ever should be, governed by referenda. It is asking people to give an opinion, on something they have little qualification to understand, and that vote is too often based on emotion. Parliamentary democracies work, despite their faults, because the decision makers can be properly briefed and advised. The mistake was the referendum and this fiasco demonstrates why.
Three resignations before 10:30. Shaping up to be quite a day.
Who says that the Brexit vote must be followed?
Wouldn’t a more responsible democracy allow for a second referendum, now that the politicians (representatives) and the people (demos) know what they’re in for?
"Make the UK Great, Again." White is right!
Here is a country, who was never all in on being part of the European Union. They do not see themselves as Europeans. They are, in fact, very British. So, it is hardly unimaginable that they would try to break away during an invasion of the "others," whom, for the most part, the Brits exploited for centuries.
Now, they seem satisfied to be controlled by Europe, but maintaining a stiff upper lip, believing that somehow this is for the good, when anyone with a rational mind can see that they are giving up more than they are getting. This sounds a lot like the people who support Trump, who degrade themselves in search of greatness that will never come to them.
1
This morning the UK media are talking about a vote of no confidence in Teresa May as well as what will happen if the EU rejects the draft deal or, as is more likely, the UK parliament does.
Of course if Teresa May goes then it follows that the deal goes with her and the process of negotiating a Brexit plan starts all over again. Does anyone really want to take up this poisoned chalice? So far lots of complaints but no one volunteering to negotiate a "better" deal.
My money is on the deal going through because it is, realistically, the best deal that can be achieved and because nobody else really has any idea how to get a better one. No one wants a no deal Brexit.
While immigration pushed Britain over the edge of Brexit, it was not the root cause. That was increasing German domination of the EU, and in particular the euro currency. In order to maintain German exports to everyone else, the euro is kept artificially low. Other countries (i.e., Greece, and more recently Italy) suffer from being noncompetitive in their trade relations. In order to maintain some semblance of economic stability, the EU needs to push for ever-closer fiscal and monetary policies, controlled by (guess who?) the Germans.
Curiously, it is not mainly the Germans who are pushing such ever-closer union, but the French. They think it gives them more leverage over Germany to have them in the EU; better than an invasion through the Arden at any rate.
This is all very interesting, but for the Brits it really can't work. They had the foresight to stay out of the eurozone (i.e., they kept their own currency), but the ever-closer stuff will squeeze them in every other way the French can think of. In fact, it is not even working for Italy now, and there is a real chance they will crash out of the euro, and hence the EU, regardless of what the Brits do. There may not be much of an EU for Britain to leave before it is all over.
While I disagree with Donald on the other 99.99% of what he does, staying clear of Europe is a pretty good idea.
1
Last night's cabinet meeting wasn't a rare validation of Theresa May's leadership but just another preview of the collective cliff jump looming ahead.
Once again, Brexit was NOT the 'will of the people.' The referendum vote excluded 16- and 17-year-olds, who will be most affected by Brexit in the decades ahead -- even though they were allowed to vote in the far less important 2014 Scottish referendum, and it excluded tax-paying EU residents like myself, who also have a stake in Britain's future, as well as UK expats living abroad.
This left just 37% of eligible voters who voted for Brexit, a decision that was supposed to be non-binding, but this little fact got lost in the emotional hyper-nationalism noise made by the far right, including Nigel Farage and his ilk.
1
Americans imagine a Britain that never was and would be laughable if many Londoners truly knew how we imagine our cousins across the pond to live.
Some land of bowler wearing, "Cheerio!" greeting, endlessly polite Hugh Grants populates the minds of many, many Americans...but it is not at all the Britain of today (nor was it ever).
Brexit as an idea is appealing the way "America first" is appealing: desperately trying to maintain the life of our rose-colored youth in the face of new arrivals and a shifting culture that we are powerless to stop.
For the sake of democracy, as a principle, Brexit must happen (it was the will of the people, no matter how narrow the victory) but it sure won't be pretty.
18
Simple... Just petition the Queen to dissolve the UK!
As all EU trade and transport contracts would be with the United Kingdom, they would thus be rendered null and void!
Each country would then be free to negotiate their own agreements with the EU. The Scots, Wales and Northern Ireland can maintain a healthy, productive relationship with the continent, and the English can wallow in their own self-aggrandisement and pity as their medicine and food stuffs run dry! Everyone is happy!
I think the key to the entire mess is to rename it.
Instead of “Brexit” let’s just call it a more accurate name.
Let’s just call it “Stupid.” And put it up for another vote.
You either vote FOR “Stupid” or AGAINST “Stupid.”
I’m guessing it will go down to defeat by a huge margin and Britain can go back being sane again.
1
It's an absurd position. Mrs May's deal is one nobody, Leaver or Remainer, can stomach.
but "between those who want to preserve close economic ties with the Continent, to protect the economy, and others.." Is that Conservative politicians or ordinary voters? Because, if it's the latter, it's about far more than the economy.
In voter terms, this is about one faction (the 51.9%) who consider themselves exclusively British and the other 48.1% who have no problem with their European identity - in fact, they relish their EU citizenship and value their freedom of movement to work, live and even die in a European country not their own.
The former, the Leavers, believe that Great Britain's rightful place in the world has been inhibited by decades of repression from neo-liberal elites in Brussels and that a bright future of global trade with, or even as a part of, the United States beckons.
The Remainers think the above is a crock. They see much social, economic and cultural benefit from EU membership - UK is an important member after all - and they want this to continue.
Leave voters are demographically older, less likely to have university or higher education, to have low paid and/or insecure jobs threatened by competition from immigrant workers and to have previously voted for Right wing parties. They tend to live in 'rust-belt' areas - defunct mining, engineering and steelmaking communities. They are much more likely to approve of Mr Trump.
You may recognise the picture.
6
Since the majority of Brits now don't want Brexit (according to recent polls), "no Brexit at all" sounds good—sounds BEST.
After all (after realizing all the complexities, which have, in effect, watered it all down), what's the point?
May's rationale seems to be that she has honored the original referendum, but the final result apparently includes little of what the referendum quite unrealistically envisioned.
Brits don't want it! The original referendum is moot, Madame.
4
@gary e. davis, Polls-schmolls... "According to polls" majority of Brits did not want Brexit before the referendum too. Those decisions are not made by the polls, but by the vote. There is no reason to believe that the second referendum, idea of which the remainers are so enamoured with, will result in anything different than the first one did. Brits definitely want it, and those who would presume otherwise in their political (mis)calculations will pay a dear price for it.
3
A decision of this magnitude should have been voted upon more than once, with a deciding factor higher than the close vote Brexit received.
4
@peter,
Keep voting until you get the result you want?
2
So, how does one go about applying for political asylum in the EU, or refugee status? Asking for a friend...
6
Aha! Economic peace in our time!
"Britain's biggest trading partner". Looking at a map, also close by. It is in the interest of both the EU and UK to maintain this, even if under some rules changes.
1
The sun is setting on the British Empire.....get out while you can.
6
Trump will attack all our long time allies personally as he did recently. We note the Putin who interfered in our elections to favor Trump will never be insulted by Trump and in fact with dour face standing next to our allies Germany and France when Putin approached he lit up and smiled. What hold does Putin have over Trump possibly Russian purchased condos in TRump buildings or is it more sinister. Compromised is the common view on their relationship ,only the rest of US govt stops Trump from giving Putin everything he wants even our former ambassador Trump was willing to send to his master Putin for torture and trial.
2
Divorce is rarely good for all parties involved. May has done what she could to try basically salvage what she always thought was a good relationship. She was a remain. The real problem is with the previous prime minister who called for a vote and basically let everyone know that the vote would not succeed. A small portion of the population actually voted because they thought it was a done deal to stay. Worst the leavers made it seem as great. No one on either side really presented a clear picture of the results. I think the UK should clean house and put people in that think about the good of the country and not their own selfish goals...
7
I remember when the Brexit vote energized the Trump campaign. It was a shot in the arm that the impossible was doable. I've marveled at the similarities ever since then. Specifically the chaos that has infected them both. The theory that the establishment is the establishment solely to enrich the establishment may sound revolutionary, but is false. The establishment is the establishment in order to balance the forces that seek to rule the others. Hence the idea that the E.U. existed solely to rip off Cocknies was farce.
2
As has been covered in the newspapers, the Russians manipulated the Brexit vote the same way they manipulated the 2016 U.S. Presidential election. It's really been a sweep for them. Not only did they break NATO's confidence in the U.S., they busted Poland and Hungary off the east of Europe, Italy off the south, and Britain off the northwest. Ya gotta hand it to Putin. Too bad, though, that all this brilliant realpolitik has only increased economic weakness and political repression in Russia. But hey, prosperity and democracy in his own country was never his goal, so the whole thing has to be rated a fantastic success.
13
@XXX Russia has nothing to do with this. This is solely about some UK residents not liking to bend to EU rules. I personally would not like the decisions of the US based upon what Canada, Mexico and Latin America decides.
2
@XXX Spot on.
2
@RLT
Not so fast, RLT.
The Brexit vote has been found to have been illegally manipulated - an investigation enquiry (with judicial power) has found this proved to the criminal standard, 'beyond reasonable doubt'. The actual criminal prosecutions (and spurious appeals) are in train.
We know that the official campaign group 'Vote Leave' illegally laundered a huge tranche of additional campaign funds through 'false flag' entities (set up specifically to conceal the electoral fraud) at a crucial stage of the campaign, thus giving them an entirely - and illegally - unfair advantage over the Remain campaign. Despite spurious counter-allegations, Remain has been CLEARED of unlawful conduct.
Of secondary interest is the *origin* of this money, allegedly donated by a UK businessman; he's not able to convincingly explain the provenance of his large (approx $11 million) donations to the Brexit boys. Fortunately, the National Crime Agency (Britain's FBI) are investigating him, it and the allegations that some, or all, of the money is of Russian origin.
It's nonsense to suggest that this vote was just about some ordinary people who hate the EU.
7
"On Wednesday in Parliament one Conservative pro-Brexit lawmaker, Peter Bone, accused Mrs. May of “not delivering the Brexit people voted for.”"
Exactly so. Since there was no proposal -- only a general concept -- on the table at the time of the referendum, each Brexit voter was free to read into the outcome whatever he, she or it imagined, desired or feared. So there are approximately as many Brexits as there are British voters.
Like beauty, Brexit is in the eye of the beholder. Or maybe more like God: with our finite minds we can never apprehend the true nature of Brexit, only that it exists.
10
Should they assure that there is no hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland? Wouldn't that fly in the face of what the UK citizens voted for? They were foolish enough to hold a referendum on such an important and complex issue they need to pay the price for their mistake. Give them the "Hard Brexit".
3
There was never any chance of a deal that would satisfy everyone. Conservatives always over simplify in order to win votes with enticing slogans that sound great, but are always impractical.
6
No one would want to be blamed for a hard Brexit and there's still time for extended negotiations.
Brexit is looming with the possibility of unleashing chaos in the UK if not properly negotiated. But then as these Conservative pols try to sort this out, the clean break Brexit advocates cannot escape the fact that their preferred scenario will be harsh and painful. Ultimately Brexit will be widely regretted.
3
Look at the bright side. The British got it out of their system relatively cheaply with Brexit. Now they will have a huge social and political hangover for many, many years, but unlike Italy, Poland, Turkey and Hungary, they will not have fascism. Germany is in danger, and the House elections have pulled the U.S. back from the brink, but the danger is not over in the U.S. either. Brexit was like getting crazy drunk and picking a stupid fight which leaves you vomiting sick and with a bruised and cut face, but the result is still very benign compared with putting a gun to your head a pulling the trigger just to show how tough you are, which was what a certain portion of the population of the United States did when it elected Trump. Looked at this way, Brexit may have been a blessing in disguise.
7
Wel, I don’t know surely what this means.Could it mean more “troubles”
“We go round and round in the circle game”.joni Mitchell
Or is a trouble unto it self.
Or is it trouble with tribbles is that they never give up.I think that was from the original Star Trek series.
“This Land Is My Land “ Woody Guthrie
Dear British friends:
You have no reason to be worried! Our President, Donald Trump will come to your rescue. But first, you will need to open a Trump Hotel at Buckingham Palace. Don't worry! Queen Elizabeth can move to the Tower of London.
4
As a reader who lives in the UK it is important to remember 48% of us voted to remain. I doubt the Leave Campaign would have mustered 10% of the vote if the British public had witnessed the debacle evident in the current Withdrawal negotiations.
You cannot have a mandate to carry out the " will of the people" when no one knows what this is.
13
The British brexiters are never going to get what they hope for from this or any other exit strategy. Once a great democracy, third rate from the moment forward when they leave the EU.
3
The Scots "strong defenders of the unity of the United Kingdom"? Surely you jest!
5
The reference is to Scottish members of the conservative party.
1
It seems to me that Brexit is an effort to control immigration and not allow Britain to be over-run by immigrants that have been let onto the Continent, mostly by Germany.
Germany does have a knack for getting the Continent messed up one way or another.
2
@MIKEinNYC Well, you are wrong. It is not a matter of opinion, but of facts: the UK, as any other EU member, had full control over immigration of non-EU citizens. Freedom of movements only refers to EU citizens, not to extra-communitary immigrants or refugees. For Germany to have 'let them in' it would have to have awarded German citizenship to those supposed invaders. But German citizens are a minority among the EU citizens living in the UK.
5
@Luis Cabo
What do you think, that Britain doesn't want the economic benefits that comes from EU participation? They want the business, they do not want an influx of incompatible immigrants, which is something that they have a right to totallybregulate if they go along with Brexit.
1
@Luis Cabo
Correct, The term of "freedom of movement" extends important freedoms to specific people, and excludes many others. And there are many mechanisms in place that ensure non-EU citizens do not have the same rights, or access to the benefits, of those who have membership.
Nonetheless, people seize on the slogan and use it to spread misinformation about immigrants moving around with abandon and soaking up countries' benefits programs.
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Brexit vote and subsequent triggering of article 50, the election of Trump and the reemergence of the plague of nationalism in the U.S. and Europe.
The first quarter of the twenty-first century will be known as the era of self-inflicted wounds.
6
Yes, Theresa May is indeed trying to give the British people the Brexit they voted for; don't let's forget that 48% voted to remain in the EU.
3
Calling it now:
1. Parliament led by Brexiteers like Rees-Moog and BoJo shoot it down.
2. May puts forward a "no deal" to Parliament. That gets shot down too, this time by pro-deal and remain tories and Labour.
3. Government collapses. May resigns. Labour wins.
4. Brexit gets halted altogether. New referendum is proposed.
5. Brexiteer Tories and Labour revolt. Major crisis and political instabilty.
Amazing how Britain went from one of the most stable, sane, and solid countries in the world, to the exact oppositie. Thanks to nationalism.
17
1) May survives next 24hrs
2) Deal fails dreadfully in Parliament
3) Corbyn tries to get election and fails
4) After more arguing, a Second Referendum.
Maybe...
1
I can't see this being acceptable to Parliament as it gives too much power to the EU and traps the UK in what appears to be the guise of a vassal state. From the beginning the EU said it would punish the UK for daring to vote leave, just look back at some of the speeches from various EU personnel at the time. This they appear to have done with some connivance from various UK politicians et al. Most people I know voted to leave, they are not stupid or ignorant. True most of us are over 50 but not uneducated, I myself hold three degrees, two of them Masters. Also we were not took in by politicians promises, an honest politician anywhere is a rarity. We have been lied to for years, from the moment we joined the Common Market back in the 70s. Then we were led to believe that it was for trade only but it has morphed into a more political animal. It is true I think that youngsters will one day want to rejoin the EU, they don't carry quite the same baggage as us older people but please don't keep calling us deluded or condemning us for doing what everyone does when it comes to voting and that is with our consciousness.
7
@Trevor Downing Maybe you are right, Mr. Downing, but almost 100% of the descriptions I read from Brexiters on how the EU institutions are constituted and work are factually wrong. The same can be said about their assertions about how the common market, the European tribunals or the free circulation of citizens work.
6
Too bad the older educated folk like yourself are not thinking about the future and what the next generation will need.
6
Another case of the old sticking it to the young. We do that here too.
5
The key issue with Brexit is that it was never really defined in the first place... Theresa May has always interpreted the Brexit vote as a vote in favour of more controlled immigration and this is what she has been insisting on when negotiating with the EU and has mentioned again in her short speech this evening. But is that really what people wanted from Brexit? Who knows? All we know from the result of the referendum is that people voted to leave the European Union. Now we are presented with a deal on which we have no say and which will likely be used by both Conservative and Labour MPs for their own political gains.
8
My primary thought throughout this whole quagmire of negotiations remain the same since the referendum: whatever comes of this chaos, I’ll keep on chugging just fine.
I encourage my fellow countrymen to do the same.
3
I’d guess you are old and have earned your bit. If you were a young earner, you’d be right to be terrified.
1
Terrified? Someone's been drinking the Kool-Aid. Since the vote for Brexit, employment has risen to record levels, unemployment has fallen to its lowest for more than 40 years, vacancies are up sharply (as EU migration falls), wages are rising, and house price pressures falling. This is despite all the prophecies of doom we were told would have taken place by now.
I highly doubt that this is the deal most of the Brexiters wanted initially. Britain will not be free as promised in most of the Brexit campaigns. It will take years to fully untangle Britain from the EU. I cannot see why this should be a good deal for the UK. From a financial point of view the EU will not suffer or feel any larger adverse movements in their budgets for the next years. I love the concept of the EU and I love the idea of free movement and be able to work in my EU country of choice. The younger generation in the UK will not be able to make a similar experience. The old, conservative Brexit hardliners will be long then.
48
Less than 2.5% of Germans have chosen to live in other EU countries. Germany loves the concept of the EU because - understandably - it is not comfortable with itself as an independent nation state. The UK's history is very different.
1
@Edmund Langdown Please, enough with the alleged social psychology lessons. Germans are happy within the EU because they understand that they benefit from a common market of 500 million people from developed countries, which allows free movement of citizens, goods and services. And because they did neither suffer nor believe the absolute nonsense and misrepresentations of the British tabloids on the subject.
It may have been democratic (although there is the question of whether a campaign based on ignorance, falsehoods and propaganda can be truly democratic), but both the Brexit referendum and its arguments were still completely idiotic. The Brexit rhetoric may work in the UK these days, but Britons should be aware that out of their bubble it just sounds as total and complete rubbish.
10
Brexit is the best thing that can happen for Great Britain. I support it. If I were a Briton, I would have voted for it. Thank you.
4
"According to Steve Baker, a prominent pro-Brexit Conservative, more than 50 of his like-minded colleagues could oppose the plan, believing it to be worse than European Union membership."
Such is the state of cognitive dissonance in Brexit conservatives.
Yes, it is worse than EU membership. And it's also the best Brexit. That's because Brexit is wishful thinking. Where the rubber meets the road, it's a disaster for all involved.
41
File under "unlawful killing by the following vehicles."
I'm sure BAE systems will do just fine.
Emmanuel Macron rightly favors patriotism, Donald Trump wrongly wants nationalism and many Conservatives in Britain’s government are even worse by parading their dangerous, delusional jingoism.
They’re pushing for a motley range of Brexit options to “take back control”, all of them worse than staying in the EU. Please have another Brexit vote before it’s too late.
20
She believes in her heart and mind that this is in the national interest. Wow, why? And where is her mind?
And where is David Cameron, the dimwit responsible for all this chaos?
Two years of nonsense and a country at war with itself because of a handful of grumpy old people. Very, very silly; out of the EU and into the arms of Trump. What a promising and peaceful future!
28
A 400-plus page agreement that has been heavily debated by a governing body is not a knee jerk 280 character tweet. At least Great Britain is attempting to make good on its promises (or threats, depending on your perspective) in as thoughtful and measured a way as is possible under the circumstances.
Only hypocrites on this side of the Atlantic would dare to cast aspersions.
Be careful what you wish for; you may get it.
6
Full speed ahead. Right off the cliff.
17
Brexit was sold to the voters with lies and distraction, by some of the same crowd of 'libertarian' investors that we have here in the US (e.g. the Kochs and Mercers), who don't want to pay any taxes or pay for any social protections for the public. To these billionaires Brexit is another step toward a libertarian utopia where they can grab all of the wealth and dump on everybody else with impunity (i.e. 'liberty') and let everyone else die in a ditch. Hopefully the opponents of Brexit can head it off with a second referendum.
30
In fact, most of big business, all the big banks, the Institute of Directors, the Confederation of British Industry, and the watchdog of the neo-liberal order, the IMF, all heavily supported Remain - because the EU and the status quo suits their interests. Look how the EC/ECB/IMF "Troika" imposed punishing austerity on ordinary people in the aftermath of the banking crisis. It was the working classes who voted Leave, in part because they could see that record migration benefited business interests while doing very little for them.
3
The 48% who voted to Remain have been completely ignored. I fear for my children’s future which is being trashed by the real ‘elite’ who won’t be affected by Brexit. Note: Remainers are often accused of being the ‘metropolitan liberal elite’. So many of the wealthy Brexiters are availing themselves of relocating to France, Monaco, etc. Lucky them!
4
@Suzanne Wilson "So many of the wealthy Brexiters are availing themselves of relocating to France, Monaco, etc." and using the UK as an offshore low-tax, low-wage haven.
1
The problem of course is while the critics of the plan can block it, they can't come up with a better one, other than leaving with no plan. It is not clear how bad that would be. The main threat now is internal division, and a lengthy stalemate. That would be worse than any of the other options.
11
@Jim1648 One better plan would be to have another "referendum," held this time in the full light of day, with a wider understanding of the complications and pitfalls of divorce, as opposed to the lollipops and rainbows version sold before the first vote.
19
There is another option: ditch Brexit either via Parliament or via a new vote on the options now available. The Brexit supporters are split into the hardcore Brexiters and those willing to go along with May’s softer version. But 48% of those who voted wanted to remain in the EU.
Since the referendum, there are 1.4 million new voters and it is known that young people are overwhelmingly likely to be pro-EU.
May’s ‘deal’ is going to satisfy nobody.
I’m appalled by how my country is behaving. I just hope my application for Irish citizenship is accepted!
4
@Blair
What if the EU would not cancel the Article 50 letter and allow them to stay? They might be subjected to a full readmission process. How long would that take, 5 or 10 years, and how many more "referendums"?
After all, it is the purpose of the French at least (and maybe the Germans) to make the Brits as miserable as possible, to serve as a warning to the other EU countries that might want to leave, in addition to whatever other historical axes they have to grind. Your attempt to gain a wider understanding may do them all in.
If I were British, I would support the plan. But if they crash out, that would be better than another referendum. The EU is on the brink of folding anyway due to the problems with Italy, as well as the economic problems Brexit itself will cause them. They do not hold all the cards at all. They hold a bag of nitro-glycerin.
1
Brexit was the worst thing the UK could have voted for and the vote was marred by disinformation and a cast of rogue characters who were directly and deliberately manipulated by Russia, who never ceases to meddle in the domestic affairs of sovereign nations, while denying they do.
Read / watch the exposee on Disinformatsiya. presently available at NYTimes.
Read: The KGB & Soviet Disinformation by Ladislav Bittman, if you can find a copy:
(Pergamon - 1985 UB 251 S65B58 1985
ISBN 0-08-031572-0)
It spells it all out for you. For some reason, Western governments both forgot how to deal with the KGB (and their successors) as if they disappeared and with a former KGB agent in particular who now runs Russia.
Read this book and you will know why Russians act and speak and react the way they do.
21
Apologies to our American cousins for this Brexit catastrophe. If any of you had any residual respect for the UK, I can only say that us voting for this act of self-harm is not unlike what you did with Trump. The difference is that you'll only have another six years of the Donald - maximum. We're stuck with this idiocy for good.
68
No we're not. Young people are pro Europe. Even if we leave now -still uncertain - we remain likely to rejoin in a generation. Those who voted for Brexit were the poorly educated and the old.
21
@Geof Rayns,
Ahhhhh, the youth fallacy. Idealistic, inexperienced, and dependent young people don't stay that way forever. The best of them grow up, gain experience, evolve their worldviews, and eventually become responsible adults, at which point they find themselves supporting conservative positions. The ranks of the young are continually replenished, as are the ranks of the old. And developed nations are becoming decidedly older and wiser.
7
@Charles Becker Do not for a moment assume that growing more conservative equates with growing "wiser". This is particularly true if your definition of conservative includes the likes of Trump who is about as far from conservative as you can get. He's a reactionary with extremist views who prefers chaos to any kind of conservative approach to governance or leadership norms. No - I'll take my "conservative" liberalism that understands that steady, measured progress towards more humane social contracts with my fellow human beings is the wiser and more appropriate choice.
16
Back in the good old days these disputes used to be settled by arranged marriages.
12
Thank you Stephen for this professional, prescient, detached (in a good way) and factual reportage. I'm living the story but I know that if I lived on the moon your piece would have me in Essex..SE,UK. Post EU...
3
this is as good as it gets britain. now you have to choose between utter chaos or acting responsible.
5
@yvo van der hoek I choose 'acting responsible'. We should thank the EU and accept this deal. It is a relief that no deal is off the table. There should be no talk of a second referendum. That way lies chaos and civil unrest. The Brexiters have won the day, we are leaving. Own it.
2
Of course any Brexit deal was going to be worse than membership. Does anyone think that the EU was created to worsen the situation of its members?
56
By that rationale, a person should join every single club going, and pay it's dues, since clubs aren't created to worsen their members lives either.
2
@Edmund Langdown I am not making an argument for joining, but for stopping and considering whether it is beneficial or not. Now everyone knows it is. Even the UK.
1
"she said many times to deliver the Brexit the British people voted for"
It was always, and always will be, impossible to deliver a Brexit the British people voted for, because the British people who voted for Brexit did not agree on what Brexit they wanted. Some - a few - wanted a complete break, some wanted to remain in a Customs Union, and others wanted to be in the Single Market. Many - perhaps the majority - wanted a Brexit that the EU was never willing to give, where the UK would have all the advantages but have none of the responsibilities (such as paying into the budget) of EU membership.
82
I know many Leavers but none one single one who wanted "all the advantages" (such as free movement) without paying for it. They just wanted the UK to return to being a normal independent country, as it's been for most of its history. If Canada, Australia and even little New Zealand can be that (all countries the UK played a huge role in shaping, not to mention the US) why not the UK?
2
@abo The irony is that inside the EU the Brits got concessions others did not get.
4
@abo In addition, from all the campaign rhetoric and what you can read from Brexiters in these comments, the people who voted for Brexit had no idea either of how the EU actually works or what it is. They voted against a ridiculous straw man built along decades by the tabloids to sell more papers, and by British politicians to deflect to the EU all responsibilities from their disastrous policies.
4