Maybe the curated pencil and pin shops are going to fail because they're stupid ideas, not because of evil corporations
16
To be honest, on first reading, I thought this piece was satire--the only suggestion missing was to bring back horse-and-buggy cabs so that there would millions of new jobs cleaning the manure from the streets.
But no, the column is meant to be serious--the latest nostagic dish of warmed over Jane Jacobs-ism, spiced up with a few ethnic flavors.
As anybody who used to frequent the West Village knows, it doesn't take Amazon, or Walmart, or Google to annihilate small merchants: all it takes is greedy landlords.
I have no idea what effect Amazon (with its 25,000 $100k-a-year jobs) will have on Long Island City, but I suspect that Mr. Kim and Ms. Teachout don't either (As for their fans in thread, any New Yorker who's ready to take advice from a disgrunted Seattle resident needs to get a mind of his own).
And I also suspect that simply shouting NO! as the column does (and as so many fans in the thread echo) will do about as much good for NYC as bringing back those horses.
14
“The tactic is all too familiar to the merchants who rely on Amazon’s platform. Amazon starts these relationships by inflating expectations…uses its bargaining power to demand highly favorable terms, including requiring merchants to share sales data that they would normally never share with an outside company… indifferent to whether these merchants go out of business…Most agree to serfdom.”
This sounds eerily like the thug-like tactics Walmart used when they dealt with their suppliers. It was “do it our way, at our price or we won’t carry your products.” Many companies were forced to send manufacturing overseas to meet Walmart’s demands. Either that or go out of business.
Both of these companies are examples of capitalism out of control. They are concerned only with profit – America be damned.
10
It seems as if Amazon is doomed-if-it-does & damned-if-it-doesn't type of company.
Instead of expanding it's Seattle HQ Amazon disperses it's work (and wealth) out over the country. Had they stayed in Seattle people would be upset because it would drives up rents, wages and prices even further. Now they want to distribute the tech jobs, and the economy that follows in general and people are screaming NIMB (not in my backyard)
Amazon is a big tech company. The amount of jobs in technology and innovation it has been created to run and operate a company like this is phenomenal. Cloud hosting, streaming TV to name a few. The number of logistics companies that deliver Amazon's products have seen growth and employed people as well - however this is never mentioned.
Amazon now wants to pay an across the boarder minimum wage of 15$/hour and start their own health insurance company together with a few other big corporations to bring down the overhead, because they have the economy of scale.
When states or cities offer tax benefits for companies to come, you can't blame the company who want to migrate there. The citizens and constituents must make the choice and weigh the benefits.
6
Let's stop Amazon from bringing high paying tech jobs to NY! Protect the corner stores, and we can all become bakers or journalists without a clue.
13
Yes, New York should return to the days of the 70’s. It was such a pleasant place. Economically vibrant and Clean. Absent of Drug pushers, muggers, and hookers; the subway was perfectly safe and Times Square/7th Ave was a garden spot. Son-of-Sam arguing with his neighbor’s dog. Trump was on Page Six with his latest slutty conquest. Good times.
Amazon started out as a small business too. It grew because customers and vendors found value in its platform. Cry for the buggy whip and styptic pencil makers if you must. Nashville would welcome Amazon.
16
Dream on , Ms. Teachout
"real estate interests pour millions of dollars into his campaigns "
NY Times 2018/11/07
Real estate are salivating - that will boost property values !
Andrew Cuoin is not going to bite the hand that feats him
2
Sorry, an influx of well paid, highly educated workers is a net positive for New York. Since when is it not? They will increase the tax base that liberals like Teachout should be licking their lips to get their hands on. Talk about cognitive dissonance. Money does not grow on trees. From this Queens resident, Welcome Amazon!
9
Leave it to liberals to say "We don't need jobs in NY". Oy vey!
8
For anyone worried about capitalist raping America, it would be better to aim higher. Look towards changing Wall Street! Especially if the concern is for NYC.
2
How about Detroit? They need this, NYC does not.
3
Amazon is going to continue to do what it's been doing for years whether or not New York is stupid enough to say no to its headquarters. Take the good jobs, it's a no-brainer. Just don't give away the store in incentives.
8
I moved to Seattle from NYC almost 20 years. It was a welcome change in lifestyle and livability. That is, until 2010 when Amazon morphed in a giant tech-borg that has ruined Seattle in so many ways. Be afraid NYC...you’re next. No amount of those “glorious” amazon tech jobs will save you.
12
Ron, every city wants to be that place. We are lucky to have this privilege. You don’t make sense to me with you postulates. Play hard or go home.
5
Not dear Amazon
Go away. NY does not need or want your business. Mr. Bezos remember that you can't take all this with you.
2
Study after copious economic study has demonstrated that corporate "incentives," sports stadia and (even worse) Olympics beauty contests are folly and waste (for example, Midwest cities subsidizing factories at a price of >$150,000/year/job). But for all the reasons outlined in The Upshot (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/07/upshot/in-superstar-cities-the-rich-get-richer-and-they-get-amazon.html), Amazon and its high-tech brethren are going to come to places like NYC. We don't have to pay them a ransom but as a born and bred NY'er our history is not remotely that of standing astride the path of history yelling, "Stop."
4
Our Governor will do whatever he wants. He is part of the machine and the machine marches on.
Every word you have written is sad and sorry, but money talks. It shouts. Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, Google.......kind of the IBM, GM and their ilk in the 60s......could they ever disappear? What? They are good for us. Always. Except when they aren't.
Who would have imagined Sears would evaporate.
I voted for Ms. Teachout. She is the real deal. Not strong enough to beat down The Man. Still, her voice and that of Mr. Kim are very important. More articles on this event, please!
7
NY, noooooo! You’re better than this! Don’t do it!
1
Any truth to the as yet unconfirmed reports that Amazon is creating its own man-made islands in the South China Sea and claiming sovereignty over the entire area between Hong Kong and Honolulu?
1
Curated pencils. really?
5
I understand Mr. Kim's and Ms. Teachout's concerns.
Let me ask both of them.
On average, do you order more of your own books from Amazon or from your local independently owned and operated bookstore?
Please try to be on point, and honest, in your answers.
5
It is no surprise the Amazon search for a 2nd headquarters was a sham…
…it follows Amazon's recent "bait and switch" with pay raises, yet another example of the ethics of Jeff Bezos and the devouring, cult-like culture he is creating at Amazon.
My surprise…is this paper’s surprise? A few years ago the Times did an in-depth, multi-full page story about the inner workings of Amazon, specifically its unreasonable expectations - and wholly inappropriate, emotionally manipulative treatment - of employees.
This week’s announcement about HQ2, and the fact that now Amazon possesses key information with which to manipulate markets to its advantage in cities all across the U.S...is just more of the same.
For those of us who can see "outside the box," Bezos is just one more tech nerd who got power...and then chose to behave just like the power-obsessed, macho jocks who tortured him in the locker room at school; like them, he ceded his soul to the lure of money, marketing, and manipulation.
Why is it most people cannot see the reality of these companies and their leaders? As I like to say, it’s because “Money is the new God and marketing is the new Jesus.”
When we wake up and begin to value people above profits again, perhaps we’ll see things – leaders like Bezos (and you-know-who in the White House) and companies like Amazon - more clearly…sooner.
3
The lost jobs that this article references will be lost regardless of where Amazon locates its HQ2/2 (HQ2 split in half).
3
Speaking from Seattle, NY should shut the door to Amazon. They are bad neighbors. You know, the type who build a big ugly house that blocks your morning light, takes up all the street parking with their expensive cars, puts their trash on your lawn, and threatens to sue you if you politely ask them to clean up their mess. It's too late for us, but there's still time for NY to remove the For Sale sign.
5
One should look at this from a power standpoint. Politicians do not kowtow to big business because they like it; big business has the power to demand concessions.
Almost a hundred years ago, Teddy Roosevelt openly campaigned against big business with his bull moose party. Today, both the democrats and the republicans are careful to avoid open conflict with big business.
1
I agree completely!!! Amazon, don’t go to NYC, come to Newark, NJ! We will gladly welcome you.
1
Just read Paul Krugman's book, "End This Depression NOW!" One can glean much.
"A city...should not offer incentives and giveaways"
Since when? Democrats and Republicans have been engaging in this kind of graft for 200 years. It hardly makes a difference whether the business in question is a corner saloon or an international oil company. Let every business large and small earn its own keep without municipalities pimping out their taxpayers.
1
The blind stupidity from already gainfully employed liberal writers is astounding sometimes. Amazon.com and thousands of other eCommerce companies have already hurt bricks and mortar businesses. It started 20 years ago, and the process is ongoing and evolving. If it was not Amazon.com, it would have been some other eCommerce business with a different name. In what alternative universe does big eCommerce not exist? Better to make the best of a bad but unpreventable situation than to make it worst by preventing the entry one of the biggest global employers into NYC.
6
Amazon like all the people who work in tech are idealistic and naive stuck up liberals who have never had a real job in their life. Keep them in California.
1
No subsidies. Bezos, you want to move to NYC, write a check, don’t expect one.
4
Nonsense.
Amazon customers are everywhere, they buy stuff on line, and local merchants who might have suffered from people's online habits are already suffering or have adjusted to the new normal.
New York City merchants will not suffer, or suffer further, from the presence here of Amazon. The Pakistani bodega will not suffer, not will the Russian watch-repair man, nor will the Egyptian bakery. The Jewish bakery on Avenue P, that makes the best challah, will do fine.
Not even Best Buy on Bay Parkway will suffer.
But thousands of people will get jobs.
6
It was only very recently I realized that.... Amazon actually has a storefront or two in NYC (and perhaps other locales as well) where they sell BOOKS. (Yes...Amazon has a bookstore or two in Manhattan...Amazon..the same company that nailed the coffins of so many bookstores that used to be found all across the country.)
I guess Amazon also now has something on the idea of a 'housewares' store in Manhattan, where you can buy some of the most highly-rated products found on Amazon.com
Oh the irony. The behemoth that has destroyed so many other real-world American businesses and shops in our cities and towns, now wants to open up their own businesses and shops, in some of the very same storefront locations they helped kill-off.
1
Well yes. And no.
Yes: NO TAX BREAKS to corporations. This is mobster parasitism. It should be illegal - and, if anyone Bothered to look into it, probable ARE ILLEGAL. It should be a CRIME for ANY politician is subvert taxation and play favorites with it.
No: Amazon cannot legally be prevented from acquiring property and building facilities within the local codes that stipulate what structures and types of industry are allowed in the areas they seek to occupy. They should be required to meet all requirements/regulations. And pay their taxes.
In other words: Apply the law.
But yes, ENOUGH of this cat and mouse game of holding communities hostage to "jobs" at the expense of its tax base. ALL states and localities need to bind together to stop this race to the bottom.
3
The additional tech jobs in NY (heck even the warehouse jobs) would be a huge boon. Considering the NY income taxes that will be paid on behalf of each and every new worker, and the economic stimulus that those workers will bring, it would be silly not to bring in Amazon.
In Seattle, Amazon has not caused any significant increase in homelessness. In fact, the vast majority of homeless in Western WA aren't originally even from WA. They come form all over to benefit from the kindness of Western Washingtonians, who give sizeable aid to those in need. The winters are less brutal than the midwest, and folks are generally much more tolerant than in the South.
3
amazon has perfected the Chinese model, or is it vice versa? Either way, let undercut everyone while subsidized by govt or capital markets and then cry about it. Each one is playing the US consumer like a fiddle
2
25,000 jobs is 25,000 jobs. If the new Democratic House wants to file an anti trust action Amazon I'm for that too. I went to HS in LIC. LIC and some of the surrounding areas were kind worn out back then. They have been talking about a big real estate boom in LIC for what 40 years now. This might start it.
I can't get over the feeling NYC is ten pounds of groceries in five pound bag. I lost my infatuation with 30 years ago and left it permanently 20 years ago. The subways were killing me.
What exactly should NY say no to? 25,000 new jobs? Much needed tax revenues for schools, housing, public safety, etc.? The possibility that Amazon will attract new employers to Queens to add to the jobs and revenues? New service jobs, vibrancy to the area, blue collar work for construction, transit improvements...a new Central Business District for a city lacking room to expand?
I mean, this article is just crazy! Yes housing costs may go up in the immediate area, but NYC has 300 square miles, and 8.5 million people, many of whom need work and are dependent on social services. There simply shouldn’t even be a debate.
3
I hate to break it to you, but Whole Foods was strongly anti-union long before they were acquired by Amazon.
1
They should move to coal country. Revitalize that area of the country. Get those people some jobs.
1
Get lost, Amazon!
We in western Queens have enough gentrification and Manhattanization already. Just look at what's become of Hunters Point.
1
Gee, I don't know. I sort of like Amazon. But, then again, I'm just a consumer.
2
So - a professional lifetime politician and a college prof - both of whom do not appear to have actually worked in a living and breathing company in their entire lives are shussing away several thousand high-tech jobs, their six-figure taxable incomes and the thousands of spin-off jobs because they are not comfortable with.... wait - what exactly are they not comfortable with again?
1
So consumers in a free society should not be allowed to choose convenience over local merchants. Ask the new moms stuck at home who need diapers and food if they would like Amazon to disappear. Not so fast....
1
I understand all the problems with Amazon, but it would truly be idiotic for NYC to shun the technology sector and the worlds largest company.
Luckily though, New York is an attractive place to be and should have som teeth in the negotiations. Because Amazon won’t be attracting top talent to work out in a parking lot somewhere in North Carolina.
I’m sure there’s some valid criticisms of capitalism to be made regarding this horrible idea, but I imagine it’s a bit difficult to change Jeff Bezos’ mind once he starts forking over money to buy your opinion.
Thank god Ms Teachout didn't win her election. Its clear from her academic, uninformed viewpoints here that she doesn't understand the importance of business growth - particularly in the tech industry - for a city's development.
As the banking industry slowly wanes, and "progressive" New York politicians continue to think they can spend as much taxpayer money as they want without accountability or needing to show its return on taxpayer-funded investment, the city needs as much of a new tax base as it can get.
At least until Amazon wises up and moves to a state like Florida that won't try to tax and regulate them out of existence.
5
I'll admit the bias right away. I think Amazon is crazy not to pick Boston. But, I think Boston's attitude should be, as any other potential Amazon HQ choice, not what our city can give you for free, but why should we accept you. I feel Boston,as any other city, should say to Amazon, "we don't need you". But Amazon is like a professional sports team holding a city hostage for more free advantages, and play other cities off against each other. In the end, Boston may be glad Amazon passed on them
1
I am not a fan of cities states and other government agencies giving out so-called “incentives” to multibillion-dollar corporations and super-rich sports teams owners. Every dollar given away to these self-dealing entities is a dollar directly taken from the pocket of local tax payers. The pay-off never comes, as any eventual gains simply get plowed into the pockets of the next billionaire with his hand out. If this practice is ever to be forced to an end, it will need to be quashed at the federal or perhaps even the constitutional level. All states and municipalities must return to an equal playing field. For now it’s just a race to the bottom, one that has no foreseeable end.
4
@AndyW
"Every dollar given away to these self-dealing entities is a dollar directly taken from the pocket of local tax payers."
And from the survivability of local small businesses.
@AndyW
"Every dollar given away to these self-dealing entities is a dollar directly taken from the pocket of local tax payers"..
That is somewhat misleading but, would be true, perhaps (since the net benefit is still unknown), only if Amazon were to receive funds (i.e. be paid) to move here. Tax credits and incentives, however, are not monies from the coffer as they would never have been collected in the first place if Amazon does not decide on NY.
The question is whether the economic boost from salaries paid and related taxes ( payroll, property, sales, etc.) collected exceed the inherent costs (strain on infrastructure, etc.) and result in a net sum benefit.
In any event, in a competitive and capitalistic environment, whether global, regional, or between states, there will unlikely (it seems to me) be an equal playing field. Ultimately, companies will weigh those inequities (regional tax, labor costs, and labor availability) against their own needs. In Amazon's case, they will and have located other facilities in suitable areas, which is to say, in another part of the playing field.
Many other examples exist such as "college towns" and military communities where the local economy is affected strongly by singular industries that seem to have particular tax situations. I too, would not like it to be a race to the bottom but, a race it always will be.
Agreed - Amazon has done irrepurable harm to small businesses all over the country, starting with independent bookstores, but now affecting the fabric of too many communities that are sprouting shuttered store fronts.
2
I sure don't want Amazon coming here. They should be helping to build-up a city that could Use some building up. NYC is not that city.
The LIC area (esp the waterfront) is already overly-saturated with overpriced apartments, not to mention the MTA subway is also a continual mess. The last thing we need is more people in the area, trying to ride the trains here and there.
An influx of Amazon management (who will likely move here from elsewhere, while they secure lower level employees from the immediate area) will likely have an effect on real estate prices (both rentals and sales) which in turn will spill over to and effect current residents of other nearby neighborhoods such as Greenpoint, Sunnyside, Astoria, etc.
No thank you.
6
When home values increase, local wealth increases. I have a friend in Seattle who is a teacher. The value of her home tripled. She sold it. Made a substantial profit and used the proceeds to buy smaller, more modest home.
Wow, after such heavy breathing both authors must be exhausted. I also hear Amazon is responsible for the common cold -- it used to be something you could only pick up in small walk-in stores.
Seriously, "curated pencils" is an economic future?
4
@David A company heinously hampering curated pencils, it is too much.
Amazon seems only to be able to get things that I would like, to me, on time, and at a reasonable cost. And if they don't work I can return them free. The very epitome of evil, and they don't like used cellphone sellers either.
1
The most talented and ambitious people in the world go to NYC, to participate in civic life. People who want to be seen and be involved, and to offer themselves to the community, to prove themselves. That is the energy there.
Seattle tech workers are the opposite dynamic. They came here, because the city is comfortable. They are essentially takers, on a civic level, which isn't a crime, but really effects the culture.
They have no involvement in the community. They are perfectly nice people, but they have a very narrow educational background and focus. They aren't interested in history or culture, are frankly bland citizens, even in bland Seattle.
You almost wouldn't know they were here, except for their huge consumption.
Before tech, it was possible to be poor. A waiter or student could move from neighborhood to neighborhood, to find a charming apartment. That relaxed lifestyle is totally changed by housing anxiety. People who grew up here and are elderly have to leave. All renters, anyone on a fixed income, is insecure. Empty nesters, stay in their big homes, because even though they'd get a good price selling them, where would they go? Not just the nicest neighborhood, a 40 mile radius is overpriced.
NYC is already an impossible housing market. The prices will go up on everything. But worse, it will bring a lot of people who have no interest in a city which thrives because its citizens love it.
20
I live in Seattle (for family) and San Francisco and totally concur. Let me add bad manners to the list.
However, my son works in a restaurant in Seattle and tech worker diners are good for him.
1
@Eric. Most ambitious? Most talented? Everywhere else is bland? This reads like a parody of New Yorkers. And we're talking about Queens here, not Manhattan, which makes this comment even more out of touch and weird.
1
If they don’t pay fair share of taxes and proper contributions to what they will use like public transportations, not to mention how it will cause significant housing problems that is already out of control, no thanks for Amazon coming to NY. The governor and major and all elected officials need to wake up. Be practical for a change!
5
25000 high paying jobs in a city that is constantly changing and evolving are a positive development in my view. NYC is attracting businesses, entrepreneurs and those wishing to succeed and dream big. Amazon is welcome but we should try to alleviate potential problems that might arise. Furthermore, Amazon or not, small businesses and life in NYC are going to change anyway. People shop differently today than even just a year ago. NYC is at the forefront of these trends and will hopefully lead the way today, tomorrow and for long long time.
5
This article has a dearth of evidence to support its numerous assertions.
For example, what evidence exists that proves Amazon's presence in Seattle has "led to increased homelessness"? I'm guessing that if causative evidence does exist that it would have been eagerly linked to this article. The fact that it wasn't is telling.
And let's just assume that Amazon's presence has indeed "pushed home prices up" in Seattle [another evidence-free claim]. Did the author seek the opinions of any of the thousands of Seattle residents who bought homes there before Amazon arrived? Because I'm guessing all or most of them are probably very pleased that Amazon's presence has increased the value of their investments.
Or does their opinion not even count because, according to virtue-signaling folks like this author, the prosperous and successful are now the new face of evil in this country and therefore must be silenced (despite the irony of their ever-increasing property taxes as a result of increased home values, for which we can thank Amazon?).
12
@Gabriel
There is a ton of written evidence on the impact of tech and homelessness here. You can look it up yourself easily. Seattle has clearly the worst homeless situation in the country, by scale, and is the 3rd worse by the sheer numbers of homeless population. Every renter in the city lives in economic anxiety as we become displaced, not just from the city center, but beyond the outskirts and suburbs. All the best neighborhoods, the kind that draw people because they are picturesque and have beautiful views, used to be available to everyone. Now, what's charming about them, is being razed, willy nilly, and turned into tacky condos that block views and cost 1.2 million.
People who own homes which have increased in value are stuck in them too, unless they want to cash out and move outside the city. A nice home costs roughly the same as a condominium. This all happened to us in 20 years.
Its not virtue signaling to admit that economic anxiety really wrecks the quality of civic life, and it came with the tech explosion.
12
@Eric
1. We have many of the same problems as Seattle does here in Portland, including an out-of-control homeless problem and soaring housing prices. But we've never had an Amazon headquarters here, so how do you explain this?
2. If there's 'a ton' of written evidence out there that proves that Amazon's presence has 'led to increased homelessness' why not help us all out and point us to something specific? At least one source? Should be easy enough- you've obviously seen it (I haven't been able to find it). Though if there really is a ton of evidence, or any at all, why wouldn't the authors include a link to it, especially in an article that has 6 other referential links?
4
@Gabrieli. A good place to start is Google Seattle homelessness.
1
People are correctly saying that Amazon hurts small businesses, but lets not forget some important facts about the reality of small business in NY. Firstly, a lot of small businesses don't pay social security taxes on their employees . Social taxes allow employees to be eligible for insurance and monetary benefits in the future. Secondly, small businesses charge more for their products, thus hurting consumers.Thirdly, in NYC African Americans may find it more difficult to get a job with a "mom and pop"store than Amazon, This debate about Amazon is good, but lets look at the reality of small businesses.
7
Yeah, tech companies are famous for their diversity!
1
The reason so many local small business -- take bodegas for example -- go out of business is because they are terrible. Amazon would not be so hugely successful if that were not fundamentally true. A modern merchant of any type needs to offer unique service and a unique value proposition to survive. Amazon does that. 90% of the NYC bodegas do not. People vote with their dollars.
10
@Andrew Y You're trying to equate bodegas 'going out of biz' with the successful business model of Amazon? That's apples to oranges.
If anything, most bodegas are long-standing...and have been in the neighborhood for decades. It's typically the newer small businesses...the new restaurants trying to appeal to the gentrifiers, that typically fail. It has nothing to do with 'offering a unique service' (or not, in the case of bodegas), and everything to do with simply understanding the market, having a good business plan, knowing 'who' your customers are/could potentially be, and, for the newer businesses (not bodegas), understanding how to navigate/use social media to promote your biz.
Old-school bodegas don't need to do any of these things. No matter how much neighborhoods change...no matter what other biz come and go... NYC residents will always have a need and desire for the bodega, which are more of a social, community institution than any new coffeeshop or cafe in the neighborhood.
Because most bodegas have been around for decades, I think most are lucky enough to have LLs who simply don't raise the rent, especially because the LL's know that the old-school bodega owners 'know the deal' and aren't going to play games. It's also very possible that many bodega owners also own the building in which they operate.
Conversely, newer coffeeshop/cafe operators in any given gentrifying nabe are typically 'newbies', more susceptible to agreeing to pay insane rents.
1
Indeed, bodegas are a blight...I once purchased bodega OJ that was more than a year past sell by date...almost exploded ...plus the inevitable cats
The authors take a very narrow and antiquated view of what "small business" means in 2018. Small businesses are no longer only quant storefronts. This is not 1905 New York :)
Millions of small retail shops are now also thriving digital shops that sell their wares to dozens of countries, by operating on global marketplaces like eBay, Etsy, Amazon, Alibaba, Walmart, to name but a few.
Digital marketplaces give Mom & Pop shops the ability to scale their business globally, sometimes very quickly.
As someone who grew up in NYC in the 70s & 80s, I fully appreciate the quirky storefronts the authors refer to. But those don't go away just because a tech company brings other kinds of jobs to a city besides retail.
Bottom line: their conclusion is simply uninformed. It's not reflective of how most small businesses thrive in a diverse, modern economy.
16
@Tom Unfortunately, the small Mom & Pops, funky little storefronts, etc. and even larger "small" businesses are heavily affected by the rent increases as Amazon gobbles square footage. Many of the small businesses we used to patronize in Seattle are gone and more keep going out of business. We used to visit Seattle a couple of times a year, but now we find we can spend a month in southern Europe for what a week costs in Seattle. And we sure miss the bookstores Seattle used to have.
10
As long as it's self financed, New York City can spend trillions to upgrade its infrastructure if this is a requirement from Amazon.
But upstate New York taxpayer' money must not be used to upgrade infrastructures people living there will use twice a year, and midwest taxpayer' money must not be used to upgrade infrastructure people living there will use once in a lifetime.
1
You should look at tables showing revenues generated by state vs federal subsidies returned. The wealthy states in the Northeast contribute far more to the federal coffers than they get back. So much for midwesterners subsidizing New York.
Similar analyses show that nyc contributes disproportionately to the state budget. Getting more of that back would only be fair.
11
What a superb response to the Amazon leak about NYC! Cuomo is a corporate toy. This move should be fully and transparently vetted before Cuomo throws away several more billion dollars to destroy NYC.
Shouldn't this money be going to fix the damn subway?!!!!
8
Now is the time for those who live or work in the Long Island City area to start contacting your newly elected or re-elected state representatives, and urging them to press Cuomo for the details. We should not simply reject it out of NIMBYism or approve it because it will bring jobs without considering what kind of jobs, what any necessary improvements to infrastructure would cost, and how much of a tax break would have to be given. State and NYC officials must demand the details.
2
Any kind of job will do. A job requiring the ability to heft? Lots of guys hanging out all day in my neighborhood. Everyone complains there are no jobs for them and that's why they're on the street. Now there will be.
Jobs requiring brains? Somewhere there are people for them, too,
Unless Mr. Kim and Ms. Teachout are planning on hiring the 25,000 people that Amazon would this is absurd. This is what is wrong with the far left. New York is growing. It is going to grow with or without Amazon. it needs a growing tax base.
21
@Daniel A. Greenbaum
Far left, you say? Give me four well-known figures on the moderate left.
1
Cuomo is running for president. He thinks this will help. If he let the subways rot before, what makes you think he will fix them now.
I still do not understand why we the tax payers have to give huge tax breaks to the richest man in the world.
It is pretty chilling to read comments from people from Seattle, my home town, about how Amazon has ruined the city for the middleclass. Yikes, I wonder if the famous water front fish market that goes on for miles, I remember as a child only caters to the very rich now.
I have friends who live in Queens, where can they move ? Broadway can raise their ticket prices higher. I bet even Bezos owned Whole Foods will go up, and they will get rid of Trader Joes and other local health food stores.
And we will see elite Montessori Schools spring up, Bezos's idea of how to educate children, probably leaching money from the public schools.
And if Jared does not go to prison I am sure he and his family will try to cash in on buying up apt buildings in Queens and kicking residents out to hike up the rents.
But the important thing is that Cuomo looks good to himself,
Such an embarrassment, two corrupt politicians from NYC.
6
If Andrew Cuomo runs for President in 2020, it almost certainly will not be with the assistance of the DNC.
I suspect Cuomo himself is acutely aware that he’d never get enough support among Democrats to risk the damage to his ego.
2
I was glad when Denver was moved down the list...
I think cities end up giving up more than they gain in these big deal moves.
8
The 7 train arrives on LIC subway platforms literally every 60 seconds, and its barely enough to deal with the immense crowds. Yet we're going to add thousands of Amazon workers?
13
A tiny, tiny, teeny tempest in a giant teapot. Amazon's new employees will hardly make a dent in an economy like NYC. And the employees will love it here. This opinion piece is NIMBY at its worst, with virtually no rationale.
13
It is great for New York. Diversity of jobs is what the state needs. No one is forced to work there, so why are you against it? Coming from upstate where all the large employers have left, I am surprised you would refuse them a place.
They don't want to come upstate NY for obvious reasons.
It is too bad that some folks think the better jobs are not in the tech industry. Not all their jobs are in the warehouses.... now warehouses could be located upstate on a highway such as I-81... Now that makes sense. Those jobs would not benefit you and no one is going to put a warehouse in Queens.
4
Again, this is why the "progressive" wing of the Democratic party is deeply flawed. Jeff Bezos is one of the few liberal CEOs out there and yet he's getting skewered by random people who criticize him for actually running a business. Why isn't Zephyr going after Walmart, Waste Management, DISH? Right, they aren't creating any jobs for anyone at any pay level that can support anyone in New York city. A city government's failure to provide adequate housing for its residents is not entirely the responsibility of the employer who is employing those people. It's NIMBYism, its rent control, it's also greedy developers who would rather sell their properties to absentee Russian and Chinese oligarchs.
This pattern of progressives attacking the "good guys" is why we have a dotard in the White House. I wish they would focus on issues and targets that are actual problems.
13
I have detested and boycotted Amazon for quite a few years. The only good outcome from this sham of an offer may be to help more people understand that they must never give Jeff Bezos another cent. This includes Whole Foods and AbeBooks.
5
No to Amazon from me also but the neighborhood merchant is nearly extinct in NYC.
3
Funny how many self-labeled "progressives" lament the demise of diverse, working-class neighborhoods they seldom live in. There is no crisis shortage of them: the majority of the five Boroughs is littered with mom-and-pop stores that will sell you cheap junk, paint your nails or make you a sandwich from a dirty kitchen. If upper-middle class "progressives" ever had to renovate a room or replace a pipe, and in the process visit 5 different "mom-and-pop" hardware stores that close at 6, carry few items and treat you like a loser, they wouldn't so readily jump on the bandwagon against "big-box" stores or services like Amazon.
But they don't; they can afford to hire a plumber, and live in their overpriced "diverse" neighborhoods with a low crime rate, overachieving public school and trendy free-trade coffee place. God forbid anyone threaten their “curated pens” shop.
Amazon has saved me countless hours of shopping, let me know exactly what I'm buying, and saved me tons of money. I have to work and support a family. I don't have a trust fund, property passed down to me, or uncle in the business when I get laid off. So, forgive me if I like Amazon and if I like new jobs.
Also, is Amazon bullying anybody? It simply looks like the private sector. It must work very hard and succeed, or die. I find it natural that the wasteful and corrupt public sector, which uses our tax money to perform poorly and inflate its own pensions, finds itself in an inferior position.
18
Just say no.
Unless Amazon pays for a new subway tunnel, a hospital and all direct and indirect infrastructure - just say no.
This city and especially LIC is bursting at the seams while most of the country is dying economically and could really use a boost.
4
Only in New York City could one find people who supposedly espouse income equality and more social services turning their noses up at an employer that will bring thousands of high paying jobs to NYC that will increase our tax base in order to provide desperately needed spending on transportation and education. This is ultra-progressivism run amuck, where abstract unrealistic and frankly utopian principles are given more weight than improvements in real people’s lives.
23
Tough issue. But maybe there is a simple solution.
it is a negotiation, right? Cities should demand that expectations of jobs, salaries and other benefits to the city actually occur. If they do not happen after 3-5 years, then a claw back clause will recoup the back taxes and costs from the company.
This way, both the cities and the companies have skin in the game.
Win-win.
8
Semi-talented politicians with populist self-interests like these two are why mirror-image right-wingers like Trump, and dismal Republicans, win elections.
Twenty-five thousand new jobs and the tons of benefits that come with it are not a bad thing. Yes, rents will rise, poor people will be pushed further away, but many struggling lower middle-class people taking two buses and a subway to their three minimum wage jobs might find success. And it brings YOUNG EDUCATED PEOPLE, the fuel for NYC’s future.
These two are just incapable of thinking big and being creative, and just want to muddle on, placating the poor and people of color without offering FOR YEARS any concrete plan for boosting incomes, providing jobs, and protecting housing.
I live in Forest Hills & I approve the Amazon site just a short distance away in LIC.
5
No. We have enough young educated people in this city. Doesn’t the rest of the country need some?
1
The picture states cost of housing rises yet wages go down. Who is buying this more expensive housing if the workers acn't afford it? Might be service jobs as to restaurants etc. catering to Amazon employees and that segment of workers grows along with Amazon workers. Ask that food place, gas selling place, retailers etc which are lower paying jobs if they like their Amazon workers providing them jobs. Many might not have jobs without Amazon.
1
@JDSept Here's an anecdote - the clerk who assisted me in a chain pharmacy in Seattle last mentioned that as every apartment in her building turned over, the landlord tripled the rent for the new tenants. If she were to leave, she would have to move outside the city and have an expensive and lengthy commute to a retail wage job. She said she wouldn't be able to move up to a 2-bedroom without moving a great distance. Seattle, which not too long ago had a moratorium on new skyscrapers, has allowed a score or so of extremely expensive skyscrapers to be erected. The people who can afford to live in them aren't from the community - they're the people who move in for the high-paying jobs, displacing current city residents. The problem is the rapid expansion that displaces people and causes upheavals. Good for some, not for many others. The commenters that suggested Bezos move to an area such as Buffalo are spot on.
7
@Sandra — only someone who lives in Alaska could see nothing wrong with putting Amazon workers through a winter in Buffalo!
This is a truly bizarre editorial by two people with no experience whatsoever as business people. While well-intentioned in their desire to save small local business, they sound like the progressive version of Trump trying to bring back jobs in the coal mines. In fact, Amazon will bring very good jobs to NYC, and along with other companies like Google, turn NYC into a mecca for companies seeking highly skilled tech jobs. This is exactly the kind of future worth investing in. As the population of well compensated people increases, more opportunities will arise for everyone --- including local merchants and business and service providers - and more taxes will be collected. Someone is going to give Amazon the incentives and get the benefits. It may as well be us!
11
Yes Amazon is soulless, hypercompetitive monster bent on driving competitors out of business and squeezing partners for ever-greater advantage -- all in an endless quest to extract money from the many so the few can live in unimaginable luxury.
... Which of course makes it a perfect fit for New York City!
13
Who was fooled by Amazon's announcement to find a city suitable for their needs, other than people who didn't read the qualifications they were seeking? A city with a 40K highly-skilled, mobile labor force? A place where a company wouldn't impact already ridiculously-high home prices? A labyrinthine system of public transportation? The real estate for mega warehouses? Within these same pages just a few weeks ago, NY Times profiled a city with blocks of empty storefronts and retail ghost towns - NYC, that is. Manufacturing has been exiting the city for decades, leaving behind massive, derelict lots that haven't seen a serious buyer during those years. And at $15/hour, those warehouse jobs would be an economic lifeline for the families living in the public housing buildings who aren't getting hired by Silver Studios and Starbucks. I wish they would've chosen NJ and Newark, where there are plenty more empty lots, incredibly low home prices, and many, many families who could use better-paying, steady jobs.
3
The mayor of San Antonio wisely decided Amazon , the tax breaks and all else they would have to give , was not for his city and decided not to vie to have Amazon in his city . Certainly the people do not benefit and get rewarded with higher rents , congestion , just to have this behemoth who offers the moon and gives a piece of coal .
4
That’s a curious comment. I’m familiar with a multinational based in NJ that was convinced to move about 1,000 back office (bookkeeping, payables, receivables, payroll processing) jobs to San Antonio. In addition to a stipend from the state of TX, they benefit from much lower salaries and commercial rents.
If SA chose not to bid I suspect it’s because they understood they were nowhere near the top in the things that Amazon said were important. These included good international air connections, good public transportation, well educated tech oriented work force.
5
@GC What is even curiouser is your comment , read the article again . San Antonio might have been on the bottom but the mayor felt it would not benefit the city . Btw , NYC transit problems are massive , these includes the airports , you must not either take mass transit or don't fly out of JFK or LGA , perhaps the latter part of your comment applies as far as tech goes , but it is rather elitist of you to comment on " well educated" work force innuendo .
1
I think Kansas or West Virginia would be a better spot for Amazon than LIC. Except Amazon couldn’t get anybody to live there. This is New York. They WANT to come here. Keep the upper hand. Cuomo should act a little tougher. Like the state he leads.
2
Thankfully Ms Teachout has been defeated in her multiple electoral efforts in NYS.Hopefully her ideology will not be able to kill off viable job creating enterprises here in the future.
Thats the very last thing New York needs if it wants to diversify its economy beyond financial services and tourism.
10
As a resident of Queens who visited Seattle this summer, I am extremely worried as to rent increases if Amazon moves in. 25% of the conversations I had in Seattle had to do with how Amazon and the tech boom had driven up rents and how impossible it was to buy there. I believe this is in flux right now, but I am not looking forward to an influx of renters courtesy Amazon.
8
@MsAz The answer is simply to build more housing, not to limit economic opportunity. Supply and demand. Demand for more housing goes up + no apartment buildings get built = higher prices for all. That has a lot more to do with local residential development policy than employers.
Talking up “small merchants” sounds good, but the proliferation of 99cent stores is worse for jobs, consumers, and our neighborhoods than Amazon. And when Amazon replaces them, small merchants with better, more creative business models can step in and do what New York businesses do best: offer personal, specialized goods and services with character and an attitude that cannot be found anywhere else — certainly not on Amazon.
When I voted for Teachout, I didn’t realize she was opposed to job creation in NY. I’m glad that saner minds prevailed.
9
Many commenters here blithely refer to NYC as though it is a single glamorous monolith when in actuality we are talking about 5 boroughs, of which Queens, which LIC is a part of, has one of the most congested & confusing transportation systems in the city. Getting from LIC to most parts of Manhattan (where most of the Amazon elites are going to want to reside & play) is a Kafkan nightmare, involving multiple switched subway lines & overcrowded cars. Is Amazon going to build another line? I don't think even they can solve that problem. Sorry, but my bet is a location like Newark would ultimately look far more attractive to prospective Amazon workers than Queens.
6
@inframan What? LIC has direct subway connections to Midtown Manhattan on the 7, E, M, R, N & W trains, a rail connection to Penn Station and soon to be Grand Central, direct access to Interstates 495 and 278 and is minutes from Laguardia airport. It's probably the most desirable place to live in the city after Manhattan and the trendy parts of Brooklyn, due to convenience and views, which is clear by the soaring towers under construction everywhere. Look at a map.
5
By driving countless small businesses across the country to bankruptcy, Amazon has drawn money out of local economies on a massive scale and into the hands of a few people (typically somewhere else), replacing the jobs of small-business owners with fewer and lower-paying jobs, and filling town centers with empty storefronts. You can view this as business efficiency and convenience, but if you spend your money with Amazon instead of a locally-owned business, don’t be surprised if your local economy declines—and don’t try to blame someone else for your woes. I certainly don’t want a penny of my tax dollars to help facilitate this destruction, and they seem successful enough to not require it. They’re just playing American cities against each other to take further advantage.
6
The authors have an interesting and important perspective, but I suspect the point they make about how Amazon "has pushed up home prices" in Seattle will be greeted ecstatically by homeowners in the greater NY metro area. I confess that I'm one of them, and that was my first reaction to the news. I'm open to weighing the downside of Amazon, but still...
6
The people commenting here desirous of Amazon coming to their city, made me think of the following end to Italo Calvino's "Invisible Cities:"
“The inferno of the living is not something that will be; if there is one, it is what is already here, the inferno where we live every day, that we form by being together. There are two ways to escape suffering it. The first is easy for many: ACCEPT THE INFERNO AND BECOME SUCH A PART OF IT THAT YOU CAN NO LONGER SEE IT. The second is risky and demands constant vigilance and apprehension: seek and learn to recognize who and what, in the midst of the inferno, are not inferno, then make them endure, GIVE THEM SPACE.”
3
I wish they had chosen a city or cities in need of economic development, like Newark, or in a red/purple state where they could have helped tip the balance, such as Atlanta, Raleigh or Columbus OH.
My hometown of San Antonio did not even bid for it, to our credit. My second hometown of Austin was in the running, but most people there were hoping it wouldn't come. We already have a huge tech industry, so we did not need the boost Amazon would provide. And the population is growing so rapidly that resources are being strained.
It does appear that Amazon's decision had been made ahead of time and this contest was held just to extract the maximum concessions from the cities involved.
7
Amazon is splitting the second HQ because they cannot find all the talent they need in a single location. NY and D.C. have a wealth of tech talent and colleges and universities plus public transit systems.
6
Underfunded and over crowded transit systems.
A big "Thank You" to Y'all up there in NY and VA. Down here in Atlanta we're just so grateful for taking that future tax burden off our shoulders, not to mention the additional traffic burden, housing price increases, and a host of other inconveniences.
9
I would be willing to bet that Amazon had NYC and the DC-area picked all along because of the talented, diverse and educated people these areas attract. Amazon is far from perfect but I think the "problems" it brought to Seattle are incredibly overstated. Portland is experiencing the same exact boom in real estate and homelessness without Amazon or any other tech giant. Seattle also really felt the effects because it is a city that's been in denial about it's desirability for decades which is why it took it until 2009 to even open up a light rail line or plan for any kind of growth. Seattle's growth and affordability problems were exacerbated by Amazon but they would have happened regardless of its existence. Personally, I think Amazon will be a drop in the bucket for NYC (not sure about Crystal City), since its population is already so large.
5
It’s a definite inflow of money for the region. Money that will be distributed in the region by the people that will work there. Not a complicated subject.
4
A very complicated subject for those of us trying to survive here.
If Amazon was building a warehouse and hiring 25,000 people for low paying jobs I would say no to the LIC location but it is hiring 25,000 people for jobs that pay an average salary of $100,000 which will increase our tax base, result in more than the 25,000 jobs to support all of these new people and make us less dependent on the Financial industry which has its ups and downs..
7
@Peggysmom
How do you come up with those numbers?
25,000 jobs paying an average $100,000??
Does Amazon want to come to LIC? Fine--let them come, we are a city open to newcomers. But they should pay fully for all the costs. I don't see why we should subsidize this very profitable company when we have other direly underfunded areas. If they want to come and take advantage of our talent pool and the infrastructure built from our taxes, they should pay properly for it. Meanwhile, we should invest more in our people--for example, end the chronic scarcity and starvation of public schools and public higher education so that we continue to have a good talent pool that is attractive to employers (and equally importantly, that provides equal opportunities to all children in the city to find and nurture their talents).
17
They should pay for all the costs direct and indirect.
I have been visiting my son and his family in Seattle for about 10 years and am very familiar with the Amazon campus in Seattle. Before Amazon ever built, the area they acquired was an urban wasteland in desperate need of development and re-purposing. The project has made Seattle a boom town, providing jobs for planners, architects, builders, steel workers, equipment operators, traffic planners and new Amazon employees. There is no Amazon warehouse--it is all a 21st century think-tank for solving people problems and promoting commerce. I think Queens is a perfect place for this kind of urban renewal. The city should be full of gratitude that urban renewal is on the horizon! These people are not like Trump developers--they care about the impact they will leave on the whole city--everyone will benefit!
10
@Sue Seattle was already a tech boomtown. Ever hear of Microsoft?
Maybe Queens doesn’t need urban renewal?
Please say NO NY! Miami would love the jobs and a Fortune 500 headquarters. I beg you to say, NO.
7
C'mon, Amazon! Don't you know how hard it was to get Long Island under the local Democratic thumb? Now you're going to offer FREEDOM in the form of new jobs? That's totally unStalinesque!
What's next = free elections? Don't you know what would happen in NYC if people got the idea they could just go out and hire on to people that the guys downtown know all about?
3
I agree with the column but not the loose NYT editorial oversight. The following excerpt makes roughly five claims:
“ Our state already ranks last in the nation in returns on billions of dollars in corporate giveaways. Its economic development programs are the most expensive in the country, amounting to 76 percent of the state’s gross tax revenue. In 2015, Mr. Cuomo gave away $8.25 billion to corporations — as much as the next three states combined.”
Why doesn’t NYT require columnists and often reporters to provide links to such assertions?
5
Get ready Long Island. For lots of overpaid workers crossing your streets while gazing down at their cell phones. For lots of people filling your bars and restaurants with scintillating conversations about C++, Unix, JavaScript, and Python. For property developers to bang up boring looking and over-priced apartment buildings that offer move in discounts for people who work for Amazon. For that neighbor you've known for 20 or 30 years to start looking for more affordable housing elsewhere in the city. For that middle class wage that's been supporting you for a decade to start looking pretty paltry as you discover that 50-60% of your salary is now going towards housing. I could go on, but you get the picture.
13
@soonerhound New York is not the place to be if you are expecting everything to stay the same year after year and want nothing to ever change. Every day I walk past buildings that were knocked down the day before and struggle to even remember what was there before and a year later a new high rise is standing on the lot.
2
@soonerhound
You mention 'overpaid (Amazon) workers crossing your streets...'. I'm just curious how you know they are overpaid? And assuming your claim is true, how much should they be making?
1
@soonerhound
As opposed to a bunch of hipsters whining about capitalism electing socialists who promise free everything?
Bring in the techies, the area is ready for a new rebirth
2
I am so thankful this juggernaut of dispossession and displacement didn't end up here in Detroit--the appetites and insecurities of "New Detroit" are already causing enough damage to the lifelong residents of this city, without Amazon's community-obliterating presence.
My heart goes out to the lifelong residents in NYC who are about to have their home and lives distorted and erased by this mess of shameless insatiability...
10
@SD We appreciate your support. You folks in Detroit dodged a bullet. Unfortunately we New Yorkers must now live with 25,000 high-paying jobs and all the attendant economic uplift they will come with. It will be very difficult. Housing stock will improve. The one bright spot I see is additional curated pencil stores will probably open.
Amazon is a terrible place to work even for white collar workers. I would not want Amazon in my city!
5
@LiberalAdvocate
Yes, if an enormous company comes here, let it least be a union shop. Costco has a store here in western Queens, right near the East River.
IF the reason that Amazon chose NYC as one of 2 locations to open their new mega-facility, then while incentives surely play a part, it's a SMALL part in comparison to their long-term goals. How much, for instance, is DC offering in incentives for the other half of this deal? How about the other cities that were considered? No, they WANT to come to NYC for the reasons that most businesses currently want to come here, namely because it's the center of American finance AND has a growing base of wealthy customers prepared to take advantage of services offered AND offers the largest pool of talent in the country, possibly still the world.
Now on a PERSONAL level, the one thing we do NOT need is a company with 50K employees bombarding our overburdened infrastructure. Don't say that we need the resources in order to improve the infrastructure because the resources are there already if we were to tap into them. Until our airports, roads and mass transit system is greatly improved to absorb such shocks of expansion in users, we should avoid the burden. Even for a city as large as ours, 50K people still represent a 7-8% increase and that's a helluva lot!
4
@ManhattanWilliam
And I said the exact same thing for the exact same reasons! --Thank you for being another voice in the wilderness.
2
@ManhattanWilliam NYC has a population of 8.6 million. You need to check your math. 50k is a drop in the bucket (a 0.6% increase in population if you round up) but it might start to make up for all the layoffs and outsourcing on Wall Street over the last 10 years.
“...CW Pencil Enterprise, which sells curated pencils in Manhattan.”
I was on board until I got here. Who is out here with the disposable income to spend on curated PENCILS? New York has been a playground for the idiotically wealthy for a while now. You guys are gonna be fine.
2
As they say in the Cubs bleachers when the other team hits a home run-- "Throw it Back!"
If Amazon wanted to do something really good, they could put their new headquarters in Detroit or St. Louis or Pittsburgh or another city that could use a boost. Imagine the renaissance it could create -- all the good will?
5
So this company is run by the world's richest man. Their stock is way up and they're the largest ecommerce retailer.
New York City's transit, schools, and nearly every other department is underfunded.
Why exactly are we giving them tax breaks??? And please spare me the jobs argument. Unemployment is at its lowest levels in my lifetime.
11
@M. Did you ever think that maybe unemployment won't be so low forever? It would be wise to attract the headquarters of a company that is running away with success and understands the new economy. What happens during the next financial crises when all the Wall Street companies have another mass layoff? It was horrible for the city in 2008.
2
How about the disruption this will cause to younger people already struggling to live and work in Queens?
5
This is why Ms. Teachout can't win an election. She doesn't live in the real world.
9
New York sold out their small businesses many years ago. In fact I buy all my books from Amazon as the booksellers are all gone.
2
To the authors: I suggest you back up your data with facts next time. Yes, Amazon has lead to broad wealth creation in Seattle. Seattle now has a higher median household income than New York City. Seattle has lead in income growth for
a decade now. Maybe Ron and Zephyr should ponder why New York's wage growth and job growth is lethargic and being left behind (tech cities, like Seattle) and stop trying to chase more jobs away.
WE NEW YORKERS WELCOME AMAZON.
6
A born & bred New Yorker from Queens, went to Hunter College 68thSt in the '60s, travelled by the 'F' train which was almost empty, walked to the Village to listen to friends play their music, went horseback riding at Claremont, paid $3 for an afternoon broadway show, museums were free.
NYC, Astoria, LIC were glorious. The first chain store that entered Manhattan was a death knell. PLEASE, stand up to homogenization.
8
You recall the middle class NYC of the 60s. Cosmopolitan yes - jazz clubs, interesting and cheep restaurants, plentiful affordable housing - but still middle class. Have u not noticed the middle class is dead everywhere, not just in NYC? Thankfully we have a barbell situation here, with wealthy and poor mixed and Amazon will further reinforce that. Most cities in America skew poor and thus salivated at the chance to nab those jobs.
3
Isn’t it ironic that companies whose image is cultivated to appeal to progressives, social liberals, civil rights, and the rest of the liberal agenda should mimic the oppressive tactics and business models of the titans of the past. Cooke of Apple and Bezos of Amazon are the new Ford and Sloan of years ago. Union busting, forced low wages, and the evisceration of competitors is the order of the day. So, because Amazon owns the liberal Washington Post the left’s knee-jerk reaction is to support it (especially since Trump is a foe). When Walmart employs the same tactics they are chastised by the Left. I suppose political allies get a pass. Hypocrites all.
1
Wow. This outrage is so symptomatic of what is wrong with the civic dialog in this country. Professor Teachout's outrage should be directed to the corruption in Albany, since corruption is her academic area of expertise. Queens Assembly Member Kim should be apologizing for his evident lack of engagement with whatever process brought Amazon to Queens.
Demonizing Amazon for the alleged deficiencies of the City and the State is just lazy whining.
7
Honestly, I'd rather this massive instrument of Mammon be nestled firmly in the heart of Yankeedom then move to and subsequently ruin the cities of our heartland. The last thing we need is something like is a bunch of soyfed city slickers swarming Asheville or Charleston demanding that bbq pits offer vegan options and complaining about churches ringing bells on Sunday.
Ron has been getting his info on Amazon from the papers instead of actually doing some research.
The resistance to corporate taxes and homelessness? Amazon pays $40M a year to the city of Seattle to fight homelessness. Amazon runs a women's shelter.
And then the Seattle city council came with their hand out saying Amazon needed to pay $12M with this "head tax." Meanwhile, the Seattle city council had a one mile long stretch of bike land that was supposed to cost $800k... and ended up costing $12M. For a mile. Of bike lane.
The Seattle city council also bought trollies for the light rail... that ended up being the wrong size because the city can't be bothered to check numbers. So, rather than ordering the right ones, the city is going to retrofit the entire rail system.
Amazon's pushback was because they are already pulling their weight and it would just be throwing good money after bad.
And the homeless situation? It came because the city announced it was going to End Homelessness and give every homeless person a free house. So, every state around Washington bought their homeless a bus ticket. Add that to being an early adopter of recreational pot legalization, every homeless person west of the Mississippi was like, "Let's go there!" Now? The homeless became heroin users. And the city is talking about opening up clean injection sites, which has worked so well for Vancouver (Vancouver is TERRIFYING now.)
Don't lay that at the feet of Amazon.
8
@Kate
Spot on, Kate!
As I'm sure you're painfully aware, Portland's homeless problem is as bad as Seattle's, and yet Amazon has never had a headquarters here. Weird.
What we do have in common with Seattle: colossal failures by neo-liberal, head-in-the clouds politicians who hand out literally millions of free needles a year to homeless heroin addicts [with NO collection plan] all while patting themselves on the back via Twitter for their self-proclaimed 'bravery'.
Anyway, Thanks Amazon!
We don't need Amazon to stimulate the economy in NYC. Just fix the damn subway.
20
I live in Front Range Colorado and have been hoping all along that Amazon passes up by. We already have enough housing, traffic and school over-crowding problems already. Nothing in their track record suggest Amazon will give a damn about the knock-on effects from their expansion.
5
It’s going to be a disastrous Queens and the LIC area. The 7 train is already jam packed during the morning and evening rush hours and the LIRR station at Hunters Point looks like something out of an 1890’s parody. How the area is going to absorb thousands of additional commuters is problematic and I have no faith that city or state officials will do
Anything meaningful to make the situation better.
6
@Dave DiRoma Gee, maybe the city could try something radical like building some new infrastructure to increase capacity. This is not rocket science.
Although the ideology of this concept is a noble one, and as New Yorkers we all would have (and should have) supported the "character, independence and self-determination" of local neighborhood small business owners --- this idea is unfortunately in the past, and lies in an old New York; one that the Giuliani and Bloomberg regimes violently destroyed by re-zoning, providing exorbitant incentives for developers and big-box businesses, by going out of their way to fine and harass small business owners, and by supposedly 'cleaning up' New York City. The city's economy has already changed drastically and we small business owners who lost our businesses and dreams have either left, or changed with it. Those of us who stayed are now dependent on businesses like Amazon, not just for jobs in the city, but to help us run what small businesses that remain. For you to now, in 2018, pretend like Giuliani and Bloomberg did not happen, and that us flotsam who remain are not entitled to "get ours by any means necessary", even if it's via some unpleasant behemoth like Amazon, you had better look around you at all the unpleasantness that this city has become, and all the complicated economic models that every citizen, resident, business owner and politician (including yourselves) are now permanently tied to. If you are looking for votes by trying to appear like rebellious leftists, then I absolutely understand you. But if you actually believe what you are saying, then y'all are bugging' out.
2
Because Cuomo is for it, I'm against. The man who let the subways rot is not someone I trust. I work in LIC and demand the full disclosure of all deals proposed.
8
@Into the Cool. Being against economic development exclusively due to who proposed it doesn't strike me as a very persuasive argument.
This criticism is short sighted. Amazon creates far more small businesses than it destroys. About 50% of its revenue comes from third party sellers. Viewing Amazon as a huge corporate monolith is off the mark.
5
@Dave, Amazon IS a huge corporate monolith.
5
If anything, NY should require at least a $20 an hour minimum wage for their employees. Amazon is a VERY profitable company, see: Bezos' net worth. Share the wealth with the creators of it!
4
Maybe NY should avoid cargo-cult politics and simply let Amazon and other companies locate where they will. And also stop leaching off companies, thus making it easier to do business in this state anyway.
1
I would offer this suggestion for relocation to the tri-state area. There is a huge corporate campus, abandoned in east fishkill NY. I do not think there are too many small business that would be hurt from expanding to that area about 55 miles north of NYC
NYC and DC area were foregone conclusions.Bezos has long had residences in both cities. New York can negotiate hard instead of giving away the store (pardon the pun).
1
This is a low point in radical polemics. As an Amazon seller, I can guarantee any ready that Amazon has never required anything like serfdom, as falsely alleged here. It's whiney nonsense.
In reality, Amazon is helpful towards us, consistently offering support with volumes of online training free and always available.
Thank God these people are not running New York.
10
Let's just say that if you do not want them, there are many places that will take them.
4
As someone from Seattle, let me tell you: Don't do it. The behemoth has ruined our city for the middle class. We have a huge crisis with inequality, outrageous rents, transportation and homelessness.
10
@Mary - High rents and homelessness are indicative of a housing shortage. Housing shortages are indicative of a failure of development policies. Blaming a successful corporation for either is lazy.
I'm worried my neighborhood of Astoria, and Long Island City will become San Francisco, where most mere mortals can not afford to live in.
5
@The Buddy
That is exactly what's happened here in Seattle.
Having lived in the shadow of Amazon here in the PNW for years I can tell you there's much truth in this column, but also some fast & loose questionable claims ("Amazon also threw its political weight around in the city, spending millions in a brutal campaign to resist corporate taxes in Seattle").
That said, the 240 or so cities that threw themselves at Amazon have only themselves to blame. A little research into how Amazon operates should have given some of them pause when they measured the imbalance of power.
And anyone who's been involved in the business world at higher management level knows that the idea of a "co-equal" HQ is ludicrous.
6
Finally someone sees that problems with this company building here. An inadequate transit system, not suffice nor housing and affordable and further destroying neighborhoods for $$$. Let VA HAVE THEM.
3
New Orleans could use an Amazon infusion of prosperity and jobs!
New York's already a great place for corporate endeavors,go to a city that's on the verge of greatness once again.
Surprise the nation and the state of Louisiana.
3
And I thought the news was about a big tech retailer bringing lots of well-paying jobs and investment to New York. How silly of me.
5
Amazon in Seattle: Really, all they do is try to figure out more and more ways to get you to buy stuff most of which you probably don't need. Then it is delivered by endless and countless trucks using fossil fuels. Then the porch pirates rip off the packages at the speed of light.
This is yet another Amazon reality.
6
If Amazon is the most god-awful successful business in the world (apparently) and Jeff Bezos is the richest person in the world (apparently) why does Cuomo have to bribe them to come to NY? And why don't they go someplace where they can make a difference and really help lift the economy, like upstate? And why do we talk about Amazon as part of some kind of East Coast Silicone Valley? Amazon isn't Google or Microsoft . . . it's an internet merchant, no different except in size from the scam website that sells male enhancement pills . . . which, apparently, you can buy from Amazon. And, yes, any small boost to the local economy will come with higher rents and food prices (I imagine several Whole Foods will open wherever they finally settle). We're not Luddites or we wouldn't be making these comments on our PCs in our digital editions of the Times, we're just understandably suspicious of elephants that walk into the room and squeeze everyone against the walls where they find it hard to breathe.
6
It’s a great way to see what the options are and get others to do the research. Plus, this opens the way for other corporations to see where they might want to expand to. Everyone shows their true colours when money is involved.
This is just how rampant crony capitalism works. Until we can educate ourselves on better economic systems, it will continue.
The equity owners at Amazon are the people that reap all of the rewards--and for what? They make money simply because they already HAVE money. I can't really blame them--it's not their fault; it's the fault of capitalism in general--but it is nonetheless disgusting.
Hopefully one day the beautiful people of America will spit out the lie that was fed to them--the lie: a single-word term, which was co-opted after being originally coined as a satire; of "Meritocracy."
2
Looks like Zephyr beat Gina Belafonte to the punch in a progress-and-prosperity-is -bad-for-NYC column. NY has been a city of ambition since it’s founding. Those threatened by that are simply in the wrong place.
7
I wish they had picked Newark, which needs the jobs and tax base.
4
As a New Yorker, I disagree with much of this article.
I would love to see Amazon strongarm Cuomo into finally taking some responsibility for the dismal state of the MTA.
Amazon will continue to impact the retail world no matter where it's jobs are based. Blocking Amazon from employing New Yorkers will not block New Yorkers from buying from Amazon.
8
Money rules!
Amazon is a master of maximizing the profit. Good for the shareholders, not so good for the society.
What is the check for this power (money)?
1
Any government incentives to business to locate in its jurisdiction should be viewed skeptically. Government officials have little interest in insuring the public gets sufficient benefits in return for the incentives after the splashy announcement. Wisconsin is already regretting the “deal” it made with Foxconn for a new plant; turns out that Foxconn committed to nothing, is going to hire fewer people than announced, got special permits to pollute and use water without public knowledge, and is going to pay so little in taxes that Wisconsin won’t break even in terms of dollars and cents for 30 years minimum.
3
How many millions is Amazon investing in infrastructure, from the subways to affordable housing?
No subsidies for the richest e-commerce company
They should be paying NYC for the opportunity to be there
4
While small businesses are quintessential to New York City's vibrancy, it's New York's Fortune-500 backbone that lays the foundation for these independent-minded people to thrive. If you bring in 25,000 new highly paid residents to NYC, those jobs may spawn 100,000 other jobs or businesses. Think of Seamless / Grubhub, or FreshDirect, or ZipCar. Amazon doesn't directly compete with the local bodega or unique thrift shop in the East Village. Actually, in many cases, Amazon showcases independent vendors that would otherwise go unnoticed to the world. It can be a simbiotic relationship rather than a predatory one. At the end of the day, NYC is so vibrant because of it playing host to both Fortune-500 companies, as well as independent local businesses.
4
What is not mentioned are the recent announcements by Facebook and Google to add a lot of jobs to NYC without special subsidies from the taxpayers. If they can do it, certainly Amazon can, too. Things are already so skewed in favor of real estate developers in the city it's hard to imagine Amazon needs any special help.
6
I am not a New Yorker, nor is my close friend, Susan. Susan, however, is a dealer in rare books and over many decades we have travelled together to the city, she to ride the subway or walk through neighborhoods where small bookstores packed with books of every kind, just disorganized enough to offer the possibility of an exciting discovery. I, on the other hand, behave much as I do at home. I sit in a comfortable chair, in a quiet corner of the Algonquin lobby, read, talk to the cat, and watch the people. Both of us are committed to the enhancement of our personal New York culture.
Silicon Valley has its own culture. It has, from its headquarters on the other side of the country, succeeded in imposing that culture on America, city after city. New York is, in many ways, the last holdout and the last hope. The city is in the strongest position to resist Amazon both because it has its own powerful personality and because that personality consist of many layers and many worlds.
Stand up, New Yorkers, and stand firm against this invasion. I really can't help thinking about "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."
11
I do not purchase anything from Amazon, ever, and have stopped shopping at Whole Foods since it was acquired, which I feel as a real loss.
They have terrible business and labor practices, I would never give them $1 of my retail dollars.
I don't want them getting any of my New York State or City tax dollars, either.
LIC doesn't need them, Queens doesn't need them, NYC doesn't need them. Housing is in a crisis, the subway is overcrowded, the unemployment rate is low.
Let them go to Newark or Detroit where their presence will make a positive difference.
How clever of them to play Cuomo and the other elected officials who turned over all that data and promised all those giveaways.
This great article just reinforces my terrible opinion of Amazon. Guess I'm not surprised they do the things that are most damaging to everyone but them...
10
This move will update a lot of infrastructure in NY. However, they will only be affordable by few. The area they invest in will be gentrified. That being said, this will attract more jobs to NY than Amazon initially brings in. New York already is an attractive place, but it doesn't hurt to stay ahead.
1
There has been a lot of talk about how 'nasty' Amazon is in taking away people's little shops & killing other entrepreneurs. I want to point out that I do a lot of online shopping - and the single biggest reason I do that is entirely because I can search for something I need & then order it directly online (not always Amazon) without having to go to 3 or 4 different shopping venues to find what I am looking for (and then still likely not getting it !). All my 'normal' shopping is done at my local supermarket, but I am trying to eat organic foodstuffs, I buy a lot of 'different/odd' foodstuffs and I know exactly what I want when looking for apparel, and to traipse around a mall drives me out of my mind ! So - it is not a case of the nasty shoppers buying via Amazon & ignoring all the little shops - it's more a case of changing shopping habits because we can now select something via searches that we couldn't even have seen before unless we went to numerous places to look around ! For instance I knew exactly what I wanted in new nightgowns for the winter - I did try my local Walmart store since I was near there anyway, but no go, so went online, found EXACTLY what I had in mind & ordered. Boom, done !!!
7
If Amazon wants to come to NYC they should pay a premium to do so. The company will be very disruptive as reflected in the is article and the reader comments. A government subsidy is out of the question, but if Amazon wants to invest a few billion in parks, low income neighborhood revitalization and other goodies ....well maybe we can let them in. Otherwise let them go to some place in rural America where the people will be happy to have them ( and subsidize them) and they can attract educated voters to the community who will vote for progressive causes and shift voting patterns for the region.
10
I live in Washington. I'm happy that Amazon will be bringing new high-paying jobs to the DC metro area. As Berkeley economist Enrico Moretti has written (see, "New Geography of Jobs"), those high-paying jobs will create many other high-paying jobs as well as help bolster the wages of many existing jobs in industries from day care, to construction, to IT professional. Yes, there will be pressure on housing costs and infrastructure, but there are better ways to deal with those problems than keeping (or hoping) Amazon and other tech industries away. This is a good problem to have!
2
This whole article reads like knee-jerk anti-capitalism. If Amazon were talking about putting in a huge retail facility, NYC would be justified in asking questions about what that would do to existing retailers. There would even be an argument against an Amazon warehouse, which would bring in lower-paid workers who might not generate enough taxes to pay for the extra infrastructure they would require. But as far as I can tell, Amazon is talking about a facility with great jobs, more like what’s in Seattle. Seattle has received huge windfalls of tax revenue from Amazon, but that doesn’t stop their leaders from whining and attempting to grab more.
Seriously, a city government is supposed to turn down high paying jobs because the people that take those jobs might drive up property values?
16
My son lives in Crystal city. He is crossing his fingers that Arlington says No to Amazon. He believes it will be a great deal for all except those who want to ride the metro, drive, buy a house, or rent an apartment. The cities that should say Yes are the cities that are otherwise untapped.
12
New York should not say “no” to Amazon.
But New York taxpayers should definitely say “no” to diverting tax dollars away from public services to Amazon. If Amazon wants state or city subsidies, then NY state and NY city should receive ownership shares for the investment.
American taxes funded the development of the internet. We should benefit as companies use that public utility for profit (off us!).
5
Amazon Brings great products and GREAT Prices/ that is Capitalism 101 and it is in a Cities Best entrance to give incentives that well pay back to the city Big time in the long run/ I know someone who builds Wall Marts that use to go up against this same kind of backlash and He said/ those complaining will be the First ones thru the Door!
5
As a City denizen and tech-worker (running my own online reputation management firm), I welcome Amazon.
This helps cement New York as a technology along with financial and creative center; all three mix well together, and in this sense, New York is a unique location.
Unlike large banking firms, Amazon differs from old-style traditional corporate enterprises, and this is welcome as well.
Have you strolled down a street in New York?
For about the last ten years or more, nearly every corner has a bank, Starbucks or pharmacy.
Long gone are unique shops for the most part. The genericification of New York is hardly due to Amazon, however.
As for "mom and pop" stores, like florists I used to visit on Queens Boulevard in Sunnyside, they are slow, overpriced, and lack selection.
Amazon did troll Austin, Buffalo, and other cities, but welcome to New York.
6
The thing that blows my mind about Amazon is Jeff Bezos himself. Amazon/Bezos could afford to pay workers more or suppliers more or pay a fair rate of corporate tax or etc., but such steps may cut into Bezos' astronomical wealth, which seems to be completely unacceptable to him. How rich is rich enough?
The same questions apply equally to the Waltons, the Kochs, and other greed mongers.
19
This piece is unbalanced and lacks nuance. Neighborhood change is part of every city's evolution, but the authors are simplistic in their forecast for how NYC will be impacted by Amazon's presence, and speak only of the baggage the company brings, the compromises the state makes, and not the potential benefits & boons.
The growth of Amazon in Seattle has created a number of challenging and unforeseen consequences, but it has also contributed in meaningful ways, leading to better infrastructure & strengthening cultural aspects of the city. Kim and Teachout warn of Amazon's ability to "decimate the power of small businesses" w/o acknowledging employment growth (from Amazon work, and also service, blue-collar & public sectors that support them) or new small businesses that tend to spin off from independent innovators at places like Amazon.
Ultimately, this piece seems to be a critique of state gov hidden in an ostensible rally cry against against an easy target, told from the voice of a common Cuomo foil. If Amazon moves to NY, it will show it values the unmatched human, financial & political capital that other readers have cited as too precious for Amazon to "ruin." But NYC and its residents and neighborhoods are resilient, progressive, and creative, it will retain its character. These two things - Amazons ability to push cities; LIC & NYC's ability to shift, expand, absorb and innovate - can operate in harmony, strengthen and scaffolding one another.
7
@Allan C
Better infrastructure? I beg to differ. It will literally take decades to catch up here in Seattle.
or example, a new light rail station in my now population dense neighborhood by. . .2034.
5
@Chauncey
I lived in Seattle for years while my spouse was stationed in the Navy while I went to the U. In proximity to that time alone, there was the creation and expansion of the light rail; the SLU streetcar; and the removal of the Alaskan Way viaduct, the redesign of the street below it and the tunnel to replace it. Seattle has spent billions - the most per capita per the FTA (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/seattle-area-spends-most-per-capita-to-build-transit-heres-why/) and continues to do so - on infrastructure on a population that's a tenth the size of NYC. So yes, better infrastructure in the sense of new, high quality options and streets that are maintained.
And not for nothing, but Seattle could have even better infrastructure that served more people if the city's population didn't insist on so much zoning for single-family housing. But that topic is too big to unpack in this space.
@Allan C
Come to Ballard and wait for a light rail train until 2034. Look it up.
Many of us here do not want the whole city to turn into Amazonia.
And maintained streets in Seattle is truly laughable.
I wonder what the enticements from Mr. Cuomo are. In the name of government transparency these should be disclosed. Do these include tax breaks, as other companies have received? Aren't NY state taxes high enough?
5
Anyone not familiar with the term monopsony should learn what it means. It is not the opposite of monopoly, rather it refers to a situation where one dominant buyer achieves dominance. This allows the buyer, in this case Amazon, to force price and other concessions from sellers if those sellers want access to the end market consumers. In years past two retail giants have approached monopsony status. First, was Sears, and the came
Walmart. In both cases Sears and Walmart have been able to force manufactures to reduce prices, often forcing production offshore. While this on the surface benefits the end consumer it has a deleterious effect on the manufacturers as the buyer can effectively shut them out of a major part of the retail market.
9
NYC can absorb 25,000 people easily. NYC exists on a scale that virtually nobody who is not intimately familiar with NYC can understand. NYC is unlike any other place you know in ways that you do not know. It is a safe and well-developed multi-cultural center of world diplomacy, finance, performing arts and culture. Amazon will be a big player but will not be determinative.
7
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the 7 train cannot absorb 25,000 more people. Ride it during rush hour some day. If we don't get a promise of major infrastructure investment, Amazon can take a hike.
35
@dave You are assuming that all these people will be riding the Flushing train. And that they will all have the same starting time for work. And that none will work from home. And that Amazon will not provide (as is a common corporate practice) shuttles to various transportation connections. I've ridden the 7 to Mets games many times and I always got there and back. Have some faith in your city!
4
@Frank Course you did. The 7 train is notorious for accommodating all riders, at all times, to and from CitiField when the Mets are at home and during the U.S. Open! Same goes for the LIRR Port Washington line. Funny thing that, huh?
1
States and local governments should not give any special treatment or contribute any money to attract or keep a business. Let the marketplace work.
Poor and relatively poor working class people are asked to cover the lost tax revenues when tax breaks are given, they are forced to cover the costs when new infrastructure expenditures occur, and they do not enjoy the profits that are made. This is why for the past three decades the rich have gotten so much richer while the workers lingered and even lost economic ground. Wealth steers public policy to give the wealthy greater advantages. Taxpayers cover the risks, and the wealthy take all the riches. This applies to Amazon and to sports teams as well. Let them pay their own way.
29
As a small business owner (Stoop Juice), saying no to Amazon would be a foolish move for NY State. Amazon's business model is here to stay and saying no would be counter productive. All business is about adopting or dying. NYC and the rest of USA, nothing personal but non perusable items that can be shipped inexpensively are going to be stored and shipped from locations with the cheapest labor and rent. UPS Worldport is in Kentucky for this very reason. Smart distributers have located their businesses close to Worldport to cut shipping time by one day. Expect Amazon to go after high end perishables for NYC market in the Long Island City location. (Expect more WholeFoods synergies and Delivery) More and more people are indifferent of the main street shopping experience because it usually comes with 15% - 20% higher prices. Small shop owners have to embrace retraining or create a niche that exceeds customer's expectation while remaining profitable. No easy task, but doable.
5
People seem to confuse the results of Amazon's domination with whether it's a good idea for NYC to have those jobs. This is NOT an Amazon warehouse where pay is low and workers are treated badly. These are managerial and engineering jobs where average pay is reputed to be in the $100K range.
In Seattle, housing prices went up because Amazon attracted tons of new people to the area and Seattle is a relatively small place with just 659,000 people and a total metro area of 3.5 million. Adding 25,000 people to NYC would have far lesser impact and at least half those jobs, if not more, would be filled by people already living here. As new housing here is already very expensive (check out the prices on those new buildings in Long Island City), I don't think prices would rise by much more than they were going to anyway.
An Amazon headquarters is not going to put small companies out of business. It's the Amazon website that puts small companies out of business simply because people have elected to buy from Amazon and it could be argued that those 25,000 new Amazon jobs are needed more because some smaller businesses are suffering.
It seems to me that the same people who complain about Amazon orders plenty from them. My Queens building of 200 apartments gets over 50 Amazon packages a day even though there are hundreds of stores in walking distance. It's those buying decisions that are putting small merchants under (along with absurd commercial rents).
8
@Martin Brooks Indeed the landlords demand astronomical rents for small businesses, which is a huge contributor to small business foreclosure in parts of NYC that are becoming rapidly gentrified. Not sure Amazon would hike up the rents in the already astronomically expensive LIC.
LIC is looking as if it's destined to become a hub for well-paid corporate employees with or without Amazon - I'm unsure the extent to which Amazon will have a drastic increase on these numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if Bezos has been secretly subsidizing some of these luxury condos just in preparation to house the people he will hire.
This is simply my ignorance at play but, I don't understand why NY taxpayers would want to accommodate/incentivize Amazon. Seems like they can afford rent here.
If Cuomo is going to be in the pockets of large companies, he may as well try to get something actually beneficial for the city out of his deals.
For example, If Amazon took control over the MTA I'm sure they'd make the trains run on time to help them deliver packages faster. We should accept Amazon only on the grounds that they fix the trains for the whole city, hahaha. Imagine such a positive byproduct
I'm also interested in how Amazon encourages innovation in the retail/small business dept.
I do believe that New Yorkers should acknowledge and challenge Amazon's more irresponsible business practices, even if the warehousing and shipping are happening elsewhere in the country.
1
Amazon is already based in New York, in a sense. Bezos started on Wall Street. Amazon's business model is built around the financial industry, which has the capability of rewarding owners of a corporation despite its being unprofitable. (Amazon does make a profit on AWS, but not on consumer goods.)
We need to understand how Amazon functions if we are to have any hope of limiting the damage it does to society.
1
Jeff Bezos revolutionized retail, and became the world's wealthiest man in the process, by making smart decisions. Relocating a substantial portion of his information workers to a new campus in Queens would be yet another smart decision. Although New York is expensive, it has the capacity to easily handle this expansion, and a large talent pool from which to draw.
Here and elsewhere there are countless bitter and negative criticisms of Bezos and Amazon from people who have never built anything significant in their lives. Amazon would do well to ignore this jealousy.
5
The days of incentives for mega-corporations is over. Maybe it worked in the 1950s when real, meaningful jobs were created. But all Amazon offers is Uber-work, lifting no one’s economy but its own.
14
I'd love to hear about our city's plan to potentially accommodate tens of thousands of new residents in LIC - who will most likely need to commute on the critically crowded 7/E/F trains while the L train is shut down for 18 months. Will those events coincide?
Even if they don't, I'd also love to hear about how New Yorkers can have our say and fight back against this plan. Ron and Zephyr, please keep us posted!
12
@Jen
Tens of thousands of apartments have been built in LIC since 2010 *naturally*. It's the fastest growing residential neighborhood in the country by far. Doubt that'll be an issue.
Also, your point about overcrowded subways is contradicted by the notion that LIC will have to accommodate all these people. If these people are all living in LIC, then they won't be commuting on the subway. They'll be walking/biking to work.
2
Amazon is double dipping. It's not enough to rip off the tax paying citizens of one locality, when Amazon can have two localities to exploit. What a deal! Making matters worse, imagine having your taxes going to subsidize the army of lobbyists likely to be employed at the VA location to gang up on the easy pickings of corrupt lawmakers and regulators of our government. I guess Bezos needs the cash.
The true serfs in this relationship are all the tax payers paying into and subsidizing Amazon's coffers and anti-competitive behavior. If trump actually paid taxes in NY - rather than getting subsidized by NY tax payers - he'd really raise a stink about having his taxes subsidizing Bezos. But since he doesn't pay taxes, what does he care?
NYS paid billions and "billions of dollars in corporate giveaways" - dating back to when trump was a toddler cheating on his taxes just like his dad. Great experience for the presidency, NOT.
11
Alas, we came close to electing Zephyr Teachout as our Governor.
3
Since Google and Facebook set up at-scale shop in 2011 and 2014 respectively, you must have some sort of report on what has worsened in NYC with their presence...
If the NYT could provide links to that information – and, no, the current circus around the harassment claims doesn’t qualify...
With assertions like:
“...It would be a special insult in New York City to sell out to a company so closely identified with squashing small merchants, stifling workers’ rights and undermining the publishing and ideas industry...
So, were they also special insults when Google and Facebook appropriated the advertising revenue lifeline for legacy print and TV media – or are ecosystems like YouTube actually reviving and transforming what had become a moribund and sclerotic industry...
Like Netflix – and Amazon – are each doing, with novel content creation and distribution business models....
As far as:
“...For every job Amazon may create today, hundreds of jobs at small businesses could be lost...
This is speculative drivel – more so because you don’t mention the several jobs that will tend to be created, enabled by each Amazon job...
As far as CW Pencil – suggest you read this:
https://www.thecut.com/2018/05/retail-success-in-the-age-of-amazon.html
4
But we were reminded by NYC and Seattle get the business because they're so cultured, progressive while middle America is a wasteland of unwashed white Trump supporters.
NY will be generously handing out billions upon billions in tax breaks, flood its already dismal transit system and put more pressure on its sewage and water systems. Since they, along with 200 other cities, were all used in Amazon's game to broker the best deal for Amazon.
Amazon won't be paying taxes, which they should, while New Yawkers are some of the most highly taxed in the country. It is like... corporate welfare in a progressive city against corporate welfare. Odd.
16
What ever happened to social conscience? It seems to have gone the way of non-conformity - remember that 60s concept?
Surely there are people in retail deserts or those who are homebound or ill or truly too busy to go to the store, but what percentage of Amazon users is that really?
The movie Wall-E provides a look at the Amazon future - piles of junk all over Earth, with an obese citizenry floating around space on lounge chairs.
I haven't shopped Amazon since I learned about the working conditions. But what am I gonna do about Target? I have to shop somewhere!
6
Amazon should say yes to Worcester, MA -- badda bing.
1
It's no surprise that we needed more choices for Governor in this election.
Andrew Cuomo has attempted to sell of NY state at every turn. De-accessioning state land for casinos, trying to sneak through fracking projects and now this. NY State and NY City need businesses that understand and are sensitive to their impact on communities and workers. I don't think any city, small or large, should look to give them subsidies in exchange for the short term gain of more jobs.
Amazon is too large - a monopsony - that will erode workers rights and the citizen's power to bend our politician's ears.
7
Amazon is going to continue to crush B&M retailers wherever they are. However, I agree that we do not need to offer special incentives just to get Amazon here. The NYC economy is good, and the infrastructure can barely handle the load it has. We don't need another corporate free rider.
14
"Peak sycophancy"?
Peak politics, rather, of which both of you are a lot more familiar than I.
Wait forever for that "no."
New York has to set the example to protect small businesses / family-owned initiatives from Amazon and the likes which thrive on weak regulators, easy Governors, and vulnerable individuals. Stop feeding this monster!
4
Why does NY have to set an illogical example? Stores make it because they fulfill the needs of their customers. Online as a competitive threat is here to stay regardless of where amazon puts a headquarters. Local retailers that offer their customers delightful experiences will continue to thrive and those who have not taken the reality of competition from the internet will not. It’s really on them.
1
Despite all the fanfare, neither Cuomo or de Blasio has mentioned how this will help New York. These two, who famously cannot agree on anything, somehow both signed on to this giveaway. So, what else do these ersatz "progressives" have in common?: They are unabashed puppets of New York's finance and real estate goniffs. Who else was at the table with Amazon? Who else was there salivating at the prospect of a forest of new towers rising and whole neighborhoods being wiped off the map?
Cuomo "joked" that he would gladly change his name to "Amazon Cuomo", but how would this make "Goldman Sachs Cuomo" or "Vornado Cuomo" feel? Think about them!
1
So will Amazon ultimately be hiring people from the area? Or will it be importing them from other places...? (Or overseas...?) And in return will NY then be giving them giant tax breaks? How is this a win for the city and state?
2
Sorry, but shame on the NYT for publishing this. If Amazon lands in Queens it's great news for the city. I hope they choose NYC - welcome Amazon!
7
I'm all for Amazon bringing jobs to NYC (full disclosure: I used to work there). However, I fully agree that NY should not subsidize this move. Amazon is a profitable company and can afford their own office space.
Not to say that they shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of any routine corporate incentive programs NY offers generally, but to package up a special deal for them bending over backwards and should not be allowed.
300
@Mike- New Jersey offered $5 Billion in tax beaks and incentives if i'm not mistaken, so how much more would NY State and city offer? Enough for them(Gov't) to file for Bankruptcy? Corporate welfare kings and queens. The public's been hoodwinked into believing that this is just fine- we pay all the taxes; they get our tax money.
15
Well, New Jersey's tax breaks are such that it's lured many corporations away from New York. And with those tax breaks went tens of thousands of jobs. Delaware's tax structure is even more favorable to business.
Now some companies are leaving for Texas.
Unless you impose uniform taxation on businesses, they will move around as long as they believe they can find workers to fill their jobs.
5
Spot on. Amazon should pay for the privilege of entering New York as an employer: corporate taxes, certainly, but above that, extra money for infrastructure and schools, at the very least. Bezos and Amazon don't need another penny from anywhere other than their own income stream. The prevailing paradigm of rewarding the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few with opportunity for even greater concentration must be flipped. This would be a great place to start.
6
Dear Amazon,
Please, please, please go where you can actually help level the playing field for cities and people that need the upgrading you can give rather than drag down the little people of LIC to benefit yourself.
Thank you, a New Yorker.
199
I can’t agree more. I live in the Seattle area and often think of moving away. Also Amazon has a terrible reputation here as an employer. Think about New York.
12
@BB Amazon is going to go where they can actually hire people. As much as it would be nice to see them revitalize struggling midsize communities in flyover country, those areas lack the skilled tech and executive workforce they need for HQ2 and are not attractive relocation destinations for upper echelon managers and software engineers.
2
@JP They can hire people anywhere. People will go to them.
What kind of "so called" skills do they need anyway? Every state and city in this country has decent schools. Why be so elitist?
12
Beyond the histrionics and present-day analysis, it's worth noting that the online shopping experience will/should be different 10 years from now.
And, let's remember, this is a two-way relationship. Breaking down the logistical and financial logic, Amazon needs NY more than NY needs Amazon. So, NY should be setting the terms, asking the questions, receiving the data, making the decisions.
Maybe Cuomo and his department analysts, beyond the headlining, are having an immersive experience rather than musing, starry-eyed, on their CVs. After all, we are talking about New York, the tough, no-nonsense, all-business, all-innovative, all-future city - are we not?
I think it is extremely misleading to include in this article a photo of Amazon's fulfillment center in Kent, Washington.
Amazon is not planning to put a fulfillment center in Long Island City; it plans to put one of its two new HQ2 complexes in LIC.
Amazon employees who work in fulfillment centers earn a minimum of $15/hour; Amazon employees in LIC will probably earn an average of $100,000/year.
Really, would it be better for NYC to have 12,500 new employees earning $15/hour or 12,500 new employees earning $100,000/year? (Yes, management and supervisory employees in both cases will make more than these figures per hour or year, but you get the idea.)
Do the math.
2
Where in your equation are the small businesses that will close, the housing costs increases that will push people out, etc.?
1
I am so glad that the Boston metro region dodged the Amazon bullet. As if stand still commuting on our roads, over crowded public transportation and lack of housing aren't already issues.
6
One the most foolish statements ever: "Amazon destroyed small businesses". Insert Walmart, Sams Club, Home Depot, Target, Starbucks etc.
I have never seen an employee from one of these companies stand in front of small business with a weapon and bar entry to customers. Nor have I seen operatives from one of these companies burn down or vandalize a small business.
The self-interest and laziness of every individual, acting collectively destroys small businesses. This is one manifestation of Adam Smith's economic invisible hand at work.
If you want small business to survive - simply buy stuff from them.
Americans want lots of inexpensive, "ok" quality items, quickly and with as little effort as possible.
Please save the comments that I know will follow - "but Americans aren't paid enough so they need to go to the lowest cost provider". Ok - but that it not the point.
5
As if it will make even a slight difference if HQ2 is in NY or wherever to regular retail. it is great for NYC to have another dynamic sector for its economy. Regular retail have to adapt. Amazon is not the only issue. Real estate is a bigger issue.
4
The claim in this op-ed that Amazon is restricting the flow of ideas is bogus. In fact, Amazon is enhancing the flow of ideas by making books (hardcover, paperback and e-books) more readily available. The book cited in the op-ed (World Without Mind: The Existential Threat of Big Tech) is available in hardcover and electronically on Amazon.
1
We survived the loss of the American Airlines HQ just fine, while they wake up every morning in Dallas.
1
I have never, and will never buy anything from the glorified website called Amazon.
Recently a Whole Foods/Amazon clerk started reading off how much money the customer ahead of me 'saved' on his Amazon Prime purchase, I said to him, "That can of tomatoes is less across the street. Why don't you tell him: 'You just wasted 50 cents!'"
It's a scam. Things cost what they cost, and you save what you put in the bank, not what you might theoretically have spent but did not spend. That's the genius of marketing, and apparently it works on Governors as well as rubes.
7
Hey Andy, but what about all of those great jobs that you promised to the people of Buffalo NY??? Another empty promise broken by our Dear Governor.
I'm curious about Walmart and their corporate headquarters in Bentonville?
Has Walmart brought wealth and job creation to that city?
Have people migrated to Bentonville to get good jobs at their corporate HQ? has Bentonville grown as a regional "center" due to this? Would this be a good "model"? rather than driving up NY (and Arlington), and making it even more difficult to live there? Especially NY, you can only get their from 3 sides, unless you live on a boat.... their are huge infrastructure insufficiencies in NY area.....
62
@Rkk To some degree Walmart has made Bentonville (specifically Fayetteville) a regional hub of activity. It helps there's UA there too of course. I believe Amazon should have helped alleviate the population pressure on the northeast by picking a city that is struggling or otherwise "not on the map" (such as Detroit, Milwaukee, KC, etc.) and made them a magnet for creative young people.
8
@Rkk Bentonville is considerably wealthier than other places in that part of the country. However, Walmart is not a tech company in the way that Amazon is and therefore probably does not have as many high-pay, highly educated corporate employees.
2
@Rkk
New York is not Bentonville. The point of this piece is that NYC retains a rich, unique culture of small business entrepreneurship that benefits the quality of life in its neighborhoods. Amazon clearly contributes to putting that dynamic at risk, as it generally does everywhere.
5
This is a very insightful article and gave me a few new ways to look at the Amazon move that i had not considered before. Thank you.
1
Something the left and right can agree on.
2
Zephyr Teachout needs to come off her gilded tower and look at what is going on in real life.
People need well paying jobs, in areas accessible to them to show up for said job. A well paying job in Tennessee does no good to a local guy or gal trying to feed a family many mikes away.
This is what Amazon is bringing to the city.
It revitalizes us as a tech hub, a title that left with the .com bust many decades ago.
We need this.
The local stores have been under assault for years and every day we loose more of them to greedy landlords demanding rents that no one but Starbucks and the like can pay. This is the real reason why.
Amazon moving offices here is jobs, taxes paid, and such. Telling them to go away means people will have to go back to looking for a job.
This is good for us. Stop sabotaging this please.
3
@AutumLeaff
Local stores will continue to close as Amazon grows.
1
why is it that every time a company grows in the USA, and becomes huge, instead of celebrating American ingenuity, people in the comments section, bash it. Say it is bad. Or articles of opinion are written noting how it will hurt the small guy. You know, I don't know Amazon corporately. I've done business with them only as a means of convenience via my mobile phone but no one stops the little guy from becoming the next Amazon. I think all these years, we have people who simply believe in a socialist system of fairness and there is nothing fair about Capitalism. Work like an animal, nonstop and perhaps you will get the golden ring. Stop whining and be glad that Amazon didn't decide to pick Ohio or Omaha for their next "expansion'. And by the way, who cares if it is HQ2, an expansion... whatever. It brings tax dollars, no matter how little to us and the employees that will work there...will become richer, even if they get 15.00/hr.
3
Another example of corporate greed.
There appears to be a concerted effort to demonize Amazon for simply being wildly, incredibly successful by Tim Berners stating, 'Opinion Corporate concentration threatens American democracy', Lina Khan with her Yale dissertation, 'Amazon’s Antitrust Paradox', Bernie Sanders wailing about Amazon low wages, Elizabeth Warren advocating or threatening antitrust measures against Amazon, a new commission created by Trump to pursue antitrust measures against big tech and specifically Amazon, a USPS commission newly appointment were tasked and is delivering higher postal rates for Amazon and other delivery companies, NYT evidenced by this article and similar others including, 'How Sears Was the Amazon of Its Day' By The Editorial Board -Oct. 15, James Bloodworth's book, "Hired: Six Months Undercover in Low-Wage Britain" and it goes on and on and on. Why wasn't Walmart similarly, collectively, concertedly punished when it was steam rolling over small town America with its football field size box stores for disruptive decades which seems to be one of the biggest complaints against Amazon -that it's shuttering small business? Why isn't anyone in anti-Amazon group going after big banks, too big to fail big banks or even big government who hold more intel and private data than all big tech combined? Is coordinated punishing of successful companies the new capitalism paradigm?
1
I don't agree. I live in Queens & teach in public university. I am excited that Amazon is coming. Queens needs a facelift and infrastructure upgrade. I'm especially excited for generation of kids who can find high-tech jobs locally. Expect a boom in enrollment in local computer science departments. The authors' view is understandable given that one of the author represents local neighborhood interests. But it's short-sighted and backward-looking, considering what Amazon, Microsoft, and Expedia have done to the re-imaging of Seattle as a new tech center.
119
@AndyW Exactly - we need to make New York more attractive as a computer science destination.
11
@Aleksey
New York is already attractive as a computer science destination -- besides not everybody is part of computer science world and they need space too.
In any case, there's already Roosevelt Island and Silicon Alley in the Flatiron District.
12
Based on my experience, big tech does not hire locally. They can attract the talent from anywhere in the world, and will shop around for the cheapest rate.
Seattle is a great example of this, people moved to Seattle to work in tech. They raised the cost of living for the locals and pushed them to the fringes.
It's actually small tech that would improve the number of opportunities in the tech industry for New Yorkers. Small companies don't have the money to relocate individuals and will offer chances to locals who don't have the absolute perfect resume.
23
Really?
Here is my recent experience with Amazon:
My dog kept shaking his head which meant time for enzymatic ear drops. I wanted to get him started right away so I purchased them for $35 from a major chain brick and mortar store.
Then I checked Amazon and could have bought them for $17
So I should pay double for everything because Zephyr Teachout does not like that Andrew Cuomo has a "win" in successfully attracting jobs that all the major cities in the country wanted?
5
Totally off point, it occurs to me that both sites chosen by Amazon are on the Eastern shore and not centrally located. Among the many questions that need answering is the one of infrastructure required to meet the rising seas on the East Coast. Not only their facilities but transportation infrastructure to move their product and the workers transportation; Housing infrastructure designed to withstand rising waters; same with schools, hospitals, entertainment, food stores... you get the idea. Assessing these needs and then meeting them, I don't imagine has been figured into the bottom line or long term future of the Headquarters. Ask about those details as well
Seattle's population is 750,000. Yeah, Amazon's workforce has radically altered that city. Queens's population is 2.4 million.
NYC can easily add 25,000 jobs from Amazon and the 10,000 new Google jobs also announced this week.
Welcome.
108
@EvanThe main point of the article is what will Amazon give back besides construction jobs ( temporary ), and tech jobs ( there are plenty of companies offering those here, so only those employees will reap the benefit of wage competition )? NYC doesn't need any more incentives to get young motivated people to move here. Unless Amazon is willing to kick in for infrastructure improvements, homeless outreach, PTA funding, go down the list, then they can take their HQ2 elsewhere. Unfortunately for elsewhere it will probably a Foxconn redo: Wisconsin emptying it's coffers for a trophy with no pay back.
5
@Evan Seattle is located in King County, which has 2.18 million people. So this is pretty much the same as Queens.
4
The level of economic ignorance in this essay is astonishing. In addition to driving out Amazon, shall we also drive out large banks, large media firms and Google? They also hurt certain small businesses. Hey, let's keep driving out large firms going until there are no middle class jobs left in the city at all! New York has done a lot of this over the past century.
Technology evolves. Industries change. Cities either keep up or they go the way of Detroit and their economies implode. You may not like Amazon, Ms. Teachout, but it is the future. New York can get onboard or it can wither. There are no other options.
The printing and manufacturing industries--and all the good middle class jobs in them--were driven out of the city by the likes of Ms. Teachout in previous decades. Let's stop the madness. New York is special, and can support the quirky small businesses Ms. Teachout loves, because it still has a few vibrant industries willing to locate here. Mr. Cuomo understands something important here: New York needs to create a friendlier business climate.
2
amazon is a monopoly and must be broken up.
4
It would be great for NY, in Buffalo that is.
97
@William Agreed or Albany for that matter. Both cities are served by Amtrak and have airports
2
Have you ever lived in Buffalo?
@William How many amazon people want to live in Buffalo? Great for ice fishing.
Where was the Times when Walmart & other Mega Supermarkets swept away the Mom & Pop Shops, where is Walmart different from Amazon ?I grew up where there was a grocery shop in the neighborhood, who knew my name & I knew the owner.The smell of fresh bread, & and the pickle barrel still lingers in my memory.Those were the good old days.
While I'm at it ,TV will never be as exciting as listening to the Radio,to gang busters,& the long Ranger, yes I said the LONG Ranger, it wasn't until I was a Teenager that I discovered it was the Lone Ranger, but who really cared, everyone knew who I was referring to , before I forget, how about Jack Armstrong the All American Boy, and Amos & Andy who shook my house with Laughter.One last thing, the only ones that were shot were Gangsters.
5
I agree. It's insane that one of the most profitable companies in the world, lead by the world's richest man, should be given tax breaks on anything. I'm sick and tired of corporations dictating terms to cities, states, and nations, all while they skirt taxes and hide their profits overseas.
As a long-time resident of Astoria and the Long Island City area, I blanch at the idea of what a massive Amazon headquarters will do to our neighborhood and city. We've already lost so many unique and diverse businesses over the past decade with the economic crash, radical income and wealth inequality, and soaring real estate prices. Those small businesses and venues give a city it's soul and spark and make it a place worth living in.
Commuting is already frustrating enough without thousands of Amazon workers, and I do not look forward to what the salaries of tech workers will do to housing prices for average New Yorkers. The tech industry has already turned San Francisco and Seattle into enormous, sterile gated communities. Don't let that happen to New York.
9
As someone who loves Long Island City (and residents on and off) as a gem of small bars, restaurants, parks, and views I get upset thinking about how a monument to intra city community would be shredded for the benefit of no one but those who are already wealthy.
Amazon is one of the biggest corporations in the world, sure they could put their HQ anywhere they want. But rather than going to a highly developed city (that frankly doesn't want it) go to a place that will crave the development. Rather than ask fo tax cuts and incentives, put money back into the local community as a gesture of interest.
Besides ruining one of the most beautiful New York neighborhoods and going against the will of the people who actually have had to work hard to live there in the face of increasing rent, why not use those tax cuts and incentives to reward the local community that makes Long Island City so amazing in the first place.
New York doesn't need outside help to be fantastic and thriving, we have it within ourselves.
13
I'm incredibly relieved our city didn't make a serious bid for HQ2. In a city our size, Amazon would become economic and political gravity overnight. We don't want that. Our economy is doing fine. The economy is already diversified. We have a looming housing shortage even without Amazon. And quite frankly, I think Utah fashions itself more as an entrepreneur than a company town. Startups and home grown businesses are generally more fashionable than out-of-towners.
I can imagine how this deal would ripple New York though. At least New York has the economic mass to contain Amazon's influence compared to smaller cities. However, there are going to be shock waves. Cuomo is basically dropping a business atom bomb into the New York labor market. The effects will obviously ripple through housing and retail and all those other areas effected by rapid gentrification. The labor market itself though is in for a serious disruption.
You can end up with one of two problems. Either non-New Yorker professionals are going to flock to the promise of a job and create a glut in the labor market. Alternatively though, you might find shortages as Amazon vacuums up a sizable amount of talent all at once. The small marketing agency in midtown won't be able to find or afford a graphics designer anymore. This is arguably good for the employee but probably not that good for the New York economy as a whole.
Cuomo is thinking about tax revenue. He should be thinking about New York's economic DNA.
2
New York City doesn't need this--there are plenty of other worthy cities that do. If Amazon wants to move to NYC, they can, but the city and state shouldn't make any concessions whatsoever.
11
There are so many red herrings and inconsistencies in this piece it's hard to count.
Let's see. So Amazon shouldn't move an office to NYC because (a) internet e-commerce hurts merchants and small retailers, (b) Amazon controls Seattle and fought against corporate taxes and raised housing prices there, (c) the HQ2 process gained them free media coverage and economic data about cities, (d) public servants in other cities labored on their losing bids to no avail, and (e) something about some delayed books shipments.
The piece is well written. Unfortunately, it's pure anti-corporate demagoguery.
10
New York City should act like Toronto, a finalist in the Amazon HQ2 beauty contest. No incentives, no tax rebates/deferments offered. Just consider us for our merits (educated work force, diversity and other desirable demographics and infrastructure). Secretly, many of us Torontonians were hoping to lose, with a fear of further increases in already escalating tech wages and housing costs.
20
@TinMan I totally agree. NYC is not a city that needed to bend over backward for Amazon; plenty of other large companies already here. I was happy that (to my knowledge) de Blasio wasn't making any huge offers to them. If Cuomo wants to put NY state money on the line so he can pretend like he made a great achievement by bringing Amazon to New York, he's welcome to NYC shouldn't offer anything because we already have what Amazon wants.
Amazon IS the new retail economy. NY should compete hard. . The authors' lament that the bidding "has been a terrible waste for those cities and states whose public servants labored to win a prize" suggests that government workers have more important, and productive, things to do - they don't.
1
Sorry, folks, buy you sound like Luddites. Amazon is a modern company that will have a long future. I lived one mile from Amazon headquarters in Seattle and Amazon had no negative impact on local businesses, but they did supply plenty of customers. I find it amusing that someone in New York would complain that real estate prices might go up. I think that ship sailed about 50 years ago. Sure, Amazon should treat its employees better and it should also be a better neighbor. New York should welcome Amazon while insisting that it contribute more to the area than just jobs.
30
@Jim Dennis: "I find it amusing that someone in New York would complain that real estate prices might go up."
Actually, you have no idea what you're talking about. They are looking to move into QUEENS, which is part of New York City, but it's not Manhattan (where real estate prices are indeed astronomical and which is close but even people who live in Queens often refer to as "The City"). There are still many sections one could commute to LIC from which will probably get a lot more expensive. And congestion in Queens is already a nightmare. I understand why local people are unhappy about this decision. It will be a giant burden with no reward for them.
Is Amazon going to contribute their share in taxes or will they get some gigantic tax break? (If past behavior is any indication, they will have tried their darnedest to avoid paying anything.) Will they help shoulder the burden for upgrades to already overtaxed infrastructure? Or will everyone else in the state have to spring for that?
And about the "jobs" that will be brought to the area: no one has said they will hire NY-ers. Any H1Bs from overseas will fit right in to our already diversified environment--not that that's a bad thing--just that it would give AMZN cover to hire from outside without being glaringly obvious and would be a selling point for them advertising jobs to foreigners.
Amazon is interested in doing whatever is best for Amazon not in what will be good for any particular community.
6
@MRM - I lived in NY too, and Queens real estate prices might not be astronomical like Manhattan, which I never said was the site, but the prices are still ridiculously high. I think maybe you need to visit some of the rest of the country. And guess what? No matter whom Amazon hires, those hires will become New Yorkers. That's how it works. In addition, they will become customers for what I guess you would call "real" New Yorkers. When you start turning your nose up at modern growing companies, you are surely headed downward. Queens and Eastern Long Island could use a little boost in the economy with all the income taxes that come with it. All companies are interested in their own fortunes. That's how business works. Now, I think Bezos needs to lighten up a bit and start giving back to the country that made him wealthy. With luck, maybe NYC will be a focal point of that if he turns generous in his old age.
2
you should be so lucky to have an amazon HQ in your area. they have revitalized seattle. issues come with it but are far outweighed by the positives they bring.
9
@robert - Funny, but I know quite a few long time Seattle residents and they feel the exact opposite about Amazon coming to their city. I wonder why?
2
@robert
Maybe you should actually visit Long Island City before judging from afar.
Besides, New York City is not exactly Seattle (which is a very lovely city, by the way).
2
I don't agree with all of the points made here, but I agree whole-heartedly with the overall message. New York is incredibly expensive to live in already, and huge influx of high-paying jobs through Amazon will continue to drive already astronomical rents and real estate prices. New York need not become the next San Francisco. We should say no.
9
Amazon’s physical presence seems more of a benefit to local business as it’s employees buy houses, cars, dental and medical care, eat at local restaurants and buy groceries. The threat comes from online retail which is already there. I get that saying no is simply a protest, like a hunger strike or self immolation.
15
Amazon plans to hire approximately 50,000 people between the 2 new locations, which means tens of thousands of jobs for New York City. But, rather than celebrate these jobs, and the economic development that will come with the relocation, the authors would rather whine about the process, and promote fear of progress. Really?
8
@Robert Yes, Really. And correctly. Most of the jobs will be minimum wage, many will have shifting schedules. In the end, Amazon, like Walmart, will be a champion welfare queen in the sense that many of its employees need public assistance to survive.
12
@Robert
The question is not only WHAT kind of jobs will Amazon be bringing, but how many people already here will actually fill them, and how will it impact the community?
And since when does having an opinion contrary to your own constitute "whining"?
Really.
2
@Robert
"...which means tens of thousands of jobs for New York City"
Only if they hire people who already live here--what stops them from bringing in people from elsewhere? (Or H1Bs from overseas?)
This article is all good and well, but speaking from one person's perspective who owns a small business in the West Village and worked for two in Seattle; It's not Amazon that puts small businesses out because of online retail or takes jobs from small businesses. The problem in NYC is unobtainable commercial space. Until that problem is solved (and Small Business Jobs Survival Act is trying to address that problem, this is a moot point.
12
Amen. The mere influx of wealth is not necessarily good; we must ask who is getting it and using it, and how. Amazon destroys independent businesses. It infiltrates our homes and minds in the form of the insidious "Alexa." It aims to be the ultimate monopoly. This is all a poor fit for the diverse, chaotic New York City that I love (though I'm not a resident).
8
This op-ed changed my mind about Amazon's possible HQ2 move to Queens. I do not buy anything Amazon if I can avoid it, however, I had thought that it might be good for jobs in the area and that the recent boom in skyrise construction in LIC/Queensborough made it a good choice. Then I read this and realized what a vague, superficial assumption I'd made. LIC and Astoria are home to so many small businesses and that, instead of helping them, it could harm them as Amazon brick and mortar stores are likely to spring up. And with housing already so high in that area, and beyond, many will be at risk of homelessness as there are large pockets of those neighborhoods that are economically disadvantaged--or challenged--home to hard-working families. How will they be protected once rents rise?
Whatever the economic particulars, it is clear based on this op-ed that greater transparency is needed in the negotiations between our governor and Amazon before the city leaps into this deal.
Thank you to Mr. Kim and Ms. Teachout for exposing the risks and for bringing this to our attention.
14
I live in Seattle. The comment that Amazon caused more homelessness is simply not true. Amazon brought jobs, and more young, smart people from around the globe to a sleepy city. And with that more services, restaurants, and businesses for them. Yes, home prices increased. And all those people complaining about Amazon are banking their retirements on their increased home value. Homelessness is a complicated issue made worse by an Opioid epidemic reframed as homelessness.
19
@anonymouse I lived in Seattle for six years from 1999-2006. Though I have been made aware that a lot has changed, I completely agree with you. I worked for small businesses in Seattle. We only ever benefited and created MORE jobs because of Amazon. Of course, gentrification happened. It always does. But big business is not the sole contributor to homelessness.
7
@anonymouse
No. "All (we) people complaining about Amazon are" NOT "banking (our) retirements on (our) increased home value."
We will now never be able to afford a home. And rent prices have increased at the same rate as home prices. This means we will never be able to retire.
8
Is this some kind of joke? There are a million reasons why Amazon opening a major new office -- or even a "routine sattelite" office -- to New York City is a great event for the City. Doubly so if, as has been rumored, one of the outer Boroughs is the winning location.
Supporters of this view should think very carefully about the larger economic trends facing New York, because they are not attractive. New York has always been the financial capital of the World, and the financial industry is our largest employer by far. On that front, the trend is to push jobs out of New York City as quickly as possible. Just ask Alliance Bernstein.
A large new operation by a world-class company, outside Manhattan, and that diversifies the City's leading industries, is the best news we've heard in a long time.
Finally, as to the arguments about wages and labor practices, the authors are absolutely correct that wages and labor practices throughout the country should be reviewed and regulated, in my view ideally by the Federal government. If the Federal government is, as now, unwilling, then states should review and regulate.
But calling for the City to outright reject a company like Amazon? That shows a shocking misunderstanding not only of the relationship between human capital and cities today, it shows a shocking misunderstanding of the trends and challenges facing our City.
24
@R.S.
Agreed. Economic diversification is arguably the single most important factor driving long-term prosperity and sustainability of a city.
It's crazy that people would shun this in general, but it's crazy, in this case in particular, because New York City is one of very few cities capable of weathering and minimizing any potential negatives of such a large move (rent growth, "dependency," etc.).
Huge companies move around this city *all the time*. Huge developments happen *everywhere*.
Google spent $2.4B on 1.2M SF Chelsea Market, they can build an additional 800,000 SF, and it looks like they're going to expand another 1.3M SF at St. John's Terminal. Projections are for 20,000 jobs in total. It's very similar to HQ2 and nobody is against it. Nobody even really cares. It's business as usual.
Facebook occupies ~1.5M SF and is in talks for another 1M SF right now.
WeWork has taken over like 6M SF in Manhattan alone over the past few years.
Hudson Yards will create roughly *20 million* square feet of space. Rebuilding the WTC has brought ~10 million square feet back online, with more to come eventually.
All of this is great. It's growth. It signals a bright future.
Businesses want to be here, people want to live here. and everyone is willing to pay because New York City is valuable.
Oh, and the people who own apartments in Long Island City should be very excited.
3
The business model of Amazon is such that it will not be hiring many high school and vocational ed graduates for its $100K/yr jobs in NYC; those high-paid jobs will tend to go to people with bachelor's degrees and advanced degrees.
Yes, Amazon has $15/hour jobs that high school and voc ed grads may be recruited to fill, but jobs like that are in Amazon warehouses and shipping centers, which are not what Amazon is planning for its NYC HQ2.
6
I'm a lifelong resident of Astoria/Long Island City and was horrified to learn that Amazon may be coming here. The transformation of the LIC area into a crowded mess of luxury buildings has upset me and others I know as we see no affordable housing being build and people like being priced out of our hometown. We wondered why construction was happening so quickly and now we know why. The mayor and governor were working together to get these buildings up to entice Amazon.
The area is already straining due to poor subway service and other lack of infrastructure. Plus it will kill a lot of the local businesses that give the area its unique character and heritage.
Why have no community board meetings been held on this? Why did residents of this area learn about it in the NYT?
Plus the jobs are not ones that are long term with good wages and benefits. Those will be for the high income tech workers. Warehouse workers won't make that.
The whole prospect of this is just awful. Especially since I'm listening to the mayor push this on NPR. The mayor who doesn't even deign to ride the subway to his gym and is completely out of touch with this city.
26
I agree. New York should say NO to Amazon. Not only because of the impact it would have on the local neighborhoods, and how it would further strain our already overburdened and antiquated transportation system -- but because New York City doesn't really need it, whereas a city like Newark really does.
And not only does Newark offer close proximity to New York, but it has a road, rail, port and airport infrastructure already in place to accommodate shipping, as well as a ready-made workforce.
As a native New Yorker who has watched neighborhood after neighborhood disappear in the name of progress and gentrification, and how L.I.C. has changed from an industrial backwater to a vibrant community supporting working-class families, small businesses and artists, I vote against this possible intrusion by this mega-company, regardless of how many job openings they offer.
And it's too bad this didn't appear on our Ballot.
35
@N. Smith How exactly would this be put on a ballot? The government can't tell a private business they can't open an office in their city. Unless you meant putting any incentives on a ballot. That could be a good idea.
1
As a long-time Seattle resident and civic advocate, and having watched and experienced Amazon's impact on my city, the company opening an HQ in Queens won't and couldn't impact the NYC economy. But it will fundamentally transform the local area around their facility. In some ways, for us, this has been good: derelict buildings have been replaced with new construction, housing density in the South Lake Union neighborhood has increased dramatically, and local businesses around the Amazon HQ and globes are thriving. But the negative impacts to the heart and soul of the city - the cultural creatives, the artists, the blue collar/service workers - outweigh the benefits to me. Housing prices are unreachable for all but the Amazombies. They're not making $15/hour - those wages are for the warehouse workers. The tech workers are those that can now afford the new condos being built where low-income housing once stood. The former residents - the artists, the blue collar and service workers - have been forced out of the city itself, taking its soul and creativity with them, leaving tech workers that grind away for endless hours trying to find more ways to make you buy more things.
It's really sad for my beloved, formerly quirky and vibrant city that refused to take itself seriously. We're now a selling machine, all striking metal and glass, with Amazon globes that approximate but aren't nature. Without creative people, Seattle looks like a city, but we really aren't anymore.
248
As a fellow Seattleite since 1980, Seattle now has new claims but the city I loved is disappearing, replaced by badged people looking down on smart phones as they cross construction zones. The recently deceased Paul Allen developed the area which opened the way. It is a question of which Seattle you wanted. Mine is gone but still has a couple years where it can live on the past reputation. But it’s soul is dieing. Strangely Boeing got the biggest financial concessions to keep local operations but that provided the model for other cities to outbid themselves to get Amazon 2. Our draw was no income tax.
15
I've always used the term Amazombies to refer to Amazon employees (their behavior walking the sidewalks and streets around their offices explains the term), but it should perhaps apply to all of those who think that Amazon is the best thing for Seattle since the Alaskan Way Viaduct. Even friends of mine who work for Amazon complain about the top-down attitude that neighbors don't matter, families don't matter, cities don't matter. I personally don't like seeing that attitude in my city, but for people who care more about their internet service speed than about their neighbors, maybe that's acceptable.
I agree with the commenters who don't expect local businesses to lose. Amazon may not end up shuttering local businesses in Queens, but that is likely because the vulnerable businesses already lost out to Seattle-based Amazon through online purchasing. Wal-Mart had a massive effect on local businesses, and people transfer that history to Amazon. However, Amazon's small business closure impact has been, and remains, as much long-distance as local.
It is absolutely critical that you start improving your infrastructure now. The frustrations of doing it against the hordes of Amazombies overloading your existing systems will certainly bring down some unprepared politicians. I wish you luck. I don't envy you.
25
Well, if you're worried about "the cultural creatives, the artists, the blue collar/service workers", Bloomberg already took care of that in New York; this town now makes Teaneck look vibrant. He salted the fields so nothing could grow except sterile glass fishbowls and since billionaires respect no else except other billionaires, I wouldn't be surprised if Bloomberg and Bezos haven't been conferring on this scheme for quite a while. Cuomo and de Blasio are just errand boys waiting for a pat on the head.
17
I do not know enough about what is being proposed for New York, nor about the workings of Amazon (beyond being a very satisfied customer) to have an informed opinion. However, it seems to me that an important part of the argument here is that we do not know that either.
The last sentence paragraph of the article seems exactly right.
10
From what I've read of Zephyr Teachout, I'm inclined to like her; I was disappointed that she didn't win AG. It also sounds like Long Island City already has overcrowded infrastructure; it doesn't seem like a good place to cram in thousands of Amazon employees. However, this article is ridiculously unbalanced in its presentation of Amazon. The reason it's so successful is that it's an excellent, innovative company which really does offer it's customers incomparable selection, great prices and great service. I've been a very happy customer since 2010. It offers thousands of people the opportunity to run businesses from their homes. It just jumped its minimum wage to $15/hr. Implying that Amazon is unalloyed evil is simply wrong.
16
@hb Amazon's business model depends on its customers and "business partners" to make short term decisions in their self interest. Its employees, too. It depends on these relationships to build dependency which it exploits to create the dystopian behemoth the authors describe.
10
@hb evidence of evil - yes it got great publicity for $15 an hour wage, but at the same time, didn't you know? It removed stock options it had been offering employees..It was just a stunt. And their business model depends on vast impacts on the earth - packing paper is a scourge. And it also depends on AVOIDING TAXES, for years.
12
@Doug, when millions of people make billions of choices that serve their interest - it’s called economics. Are you suggesting I spend an hour of my time to buy a widgets at my local store - with very limited selection? I’d rather spend 5 min on my couch to order the widget from amazon with vast selections cheaper.
7
Amazon could be run from the North Pole and still dominate local businesses because their business model is so competitive. The jobs that the authors argue could be lost due to Amazon's business would likely be lost (if they are lost at all) regardless of where Amazon locates itself. New York City may as well benefit from the jobs Amazon creates by having Amazon build here.
Furthermore, getting companies like Amazon, Facebook, Google, and Twitter to run headquarters in New York positions the city well for the future, as a global tech capital. This signals to other tech companies that New York City is a place to be, so we could see other companies move here as these big ones get the ball rolling—like anchor tenants in a mall. Ultimately, a diverse economy means a resilient city.
The downsides of Amazon seen in Seattle are based on, as the article notes, "becoming dependent" on Amazon. There is no reason to believe that New York City—the financial and media capital of the world—is at risk of becoming dependent. Lots of big guns are already here.
Beyond that, it's tough to argue that the costs outweigh the benefits when we don't know what has been proposed. It's fair to say that the terms should be published.
New York City may have a long history of "playing the fool in corporate relationships," but New York City also has a long history of creating enormous economic value. Perhaps playing the fool isn't so bad.
14
@AGuyInBrooklyn
"Furthermore, getting companies like Amazon, Facebook, Google, and Twitter to run headquarters in New York positions the city well for the future, as a global tech capital. This signals to other tech companies that New York City is a place to be, so we could see other companies move here as these big ones get the ball rolling..."
ALL of those companies, including Amazon, already have hubs in NYC. Numerous tech and digital media companies are based here. The signal has been a foghorn for a couple of decades.
Amazon did this song and dance to get the land use and population data from all of these cities and to extract as many tax breaks and handouts as possible. And no question that if this comes to fruition, it will make LIC and NYC more expensive to live than it already is. And those "mom and pop" stores, diners and bars that still exist in LIC will eventually be vanquished, either by rising rents or the whims and tastes of the Amazon-dominated workforce.
There needs to be some kind of transparency in what exactly the city and state are promising Amazon before anything is finalized.
NYC may not be a fool, but it shouldn't get played.
5
@bklynfemme
I know they all have headquarters here. That's why I mentioned them :)
Historically Amazon loses money on its retail business. After free shipping and returns, all those packages you see delivered to homes and businesses cost more money to sell than Amazon makes in profit. Amazon makes its real profit from AWS, Amazon Web Services, an internet cloud service company which supplies servers to Netflix, state and local governments, large and small corporations. In contrast, brick and mortar retailers actually make a profit. While AWS revenue has been growing dramatically it is possible that those revenues will plateau and other players such as IBM, Microsoft, Google, Cisco, Intel will take market share. If Amazon tries to raise prices on their retail, Walmart and other retailers will become more competitive. Yet to justify its stock price Amazon has to raise its profits by a thousand percent or ten times. Amazon has to promise constant growth in order to justify its stock price. If it ever stumbles, it may fall like a house of cards. Maybe New York shouldn't volunteer to be the last investor in this Ponzi Scheme.
8
Remember the Pixar movie WALL-E? The one with the rapacious company "Buy-N-Large" that takes over the Earth and runs it into the ground? That's Amazon. They started by using the book industry as a loss leader, while wholly uninterested in books or readers, and have continued their evil ways since.
I love the idea of Long Island City getting good jobs. I remember years ago when my dad worked there and it was considered a "depressed area." But if we can't defeat Amazon completely, or at least deflate it, then, yes, give the opportunity (or curse) to Newark, which needs it more.
Meanwhile, buy books from Barnes & Noble (not evil) and independents, everything else from local dealers and other online vendors. Don't feed the beast!
55
@Alicia, I'm guessing that you are too young to remember when Barnes & Noble was the epitome of all evil. All the same things were said about B&N. If you want to revisit those days, there's a movie about it, "You've Got Mail".
2
Just curious? What will this do to wages that small businesses have to pay out? As Amazon increases wages to $15 per hour, while taking away other perks, incentives and benefits, how will the small business with 20 employees be able to compete? A dishwasher making , say, $13 per hour, will now demand $15. Either that employee will no longer have a job, or, that employer will no longer be able to afford to expand.
Next, what will happen to the housing market? With all these new workers, will not rents go up? How will this be sustainable for those New Yorkers who are already having trouble paying their rents or mortgage?
So, our politicians (really Cuomo) "gives away the farm", so to speak, with tax breaks and other incentives, while, once again, "the little guy", the small business gets none of that.
Just how does this benefit us, the citizens of NYC?
7
@bsb
It doesn't sound like this location would have minimum-wage paying jobs that would compete with the jobs you mention.
If anything, I'd expect local minimum-wage and tip-dependent jobs (restaurants, bars, coffee shops, etc.) to prosper. As Amazon brings high-paying workers to the neighborhood, these workers will need places to eat, drink, and relax—and they'll have cash to spend.
Yes, rents will likely go up, but there is already a ton of housing being developed in Long Island City and, I assume, the City's proposal probably incentivizes real estate developers to build more. Increasing supply helps constrain rent growth. (This was a major part of the problems seen in Seattle and San Francisco, two cities not zoned for much dense housing.)
The benefits should be pretty obvious. The most valuable company in the world has chosen to open a big headquarters here.
High-paying long-term jobs, attraction of smart and talented young people, economic growth and diversification, etc.
1
This has to be one of the most confused articles I've ever read.
Housing prices go up because tech companies pay high wages -- over $100,000 on average in Amazon's case.
All the violin stuff about small businesses hides the fact that companies like Amazon are extraordinarily productive, that they attract educated, prosperous workers who contribute to a community's tax revenues, thus helping the less fortunate.
In their rose-tinted view of poverty, the authors would perpetuate poverty.
You cannot help the poor without the forward-looking, competent companies that generate revenue that helps the poor.
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@Josh Hill
I agree. I want the good jobs in NYC. There's still plenty of poverty in NYC and it would be great for NYC students to grow up knowing they could work for Amazon. NYC, thanks to Bloomberg efforts initially and then extended, has prepared high schools to begin to fill the tech sector. These high schools are not screened and allow students who haven't passed the specialized high school exam to gain valuable CTE/ vocational skills in the tech sector. In other words, the school system is preparing young people born largely into poverty to find a skill set to pull themselves out of poverty. Wouldn't it be nice if the tech sector materialized around them so that they could get good work? Other legislation could ensure that mom and pop business aren't priced out of their rental storefronts. Or Amazon could subsidize these store fronts. Creative solutions can be found, but we also need the jobs here in NYC to reduce poverty.
10
New York's students don't even register in these cynical calculations. This is the sort of deal pioneered by Democrats like Bloomberg, Cuomo and Schumer in NYS. Continue to decimate the middle class, while using tax revenues to placate a restive underclass that will never have an opportunity to work for Amazon. These are highly specialized positions that require highly skilled people that can relocate from anywhere. Neither Amazon nor any large corporation does on-the-job-training; they expect you to show up at 22 knowing as much as someone twice that age and prepared to be thrown on the scrap heap at 35.
20
@Josh Hill, I usually agree with your comments, but not this one.
"Housing prices go up because tech companies pay high wages -- over $100,000 on average in Amazon's case."
Yes, and this is what has been so devastating to low and middle-income Seattleites. Importing tens of thousands of highly paid out-of-staters into a city with no room left to build inevitably displaces tens of thousands of locals who can no longer afford to live in their hometown.
"You cannot help the poor" by tearing down affordable housing and replacing it with luxury condos that only well paid out-of-staters can afford.
Seattle was doing just fine before Amazon. How I miss those days.
49
Great news for jobs and overall for the tech industry, and for the tech talent in New York. As in the past 5 years the amount of tech jobs (and average income) was shrinking on the East coast.
This decision would boost the attractiveness of New York city as a tech hub, and it would allow a faster growth.
The problem with this article: it mistakenly assumes that Amazon store/shipping jobs would be brought to New York. On contrary, it would be high-paying (and tax-paying!) tech jobs, and Amazon is doing a lot of business with AWS.
16
@Aleksey Yes, it seems the authors were being intentionally sloppy trying to make it sound as if Amazon's management office would somehow compete with local retailers lol. The corollary to that argument is just as silly: local retailers will still compete with Amazon no matter where the HQ is!
A nation built on grotesque levels of consumer buying of largely throwaway stuff made in other countries and a job growth model based on employees filling orders in a warehouse while destroying small businesses in towns and cities across the U.S. will not prosper in the future. Look no further than Walmart as an example of what one or two mass sellers do to others. It makes a few families fabulously wealthy, while John Doe struggles to secure affordable healthcare.
Question to Gov. Cuomo: What if you offered existing small businesspersons and new entrepreneurs the same dollars you're offering to Amazon?
171
@Ed, warehouse jobs are good jobs. Increasingly, they are technology jobs. Those that are lower-skilled jobs are badly needed in a City that is shutting out lower-skilled workers as automation displaces them.
But that's all academic: Amazon is not proposing an enormous warehouse. They are proposing a technology hub. And those are also the kinds of jobs we want to have.
1
I have nothing against Amazon and have been a customer over the years. But I am confused about all the talk of "high tech."
As i understand it, what Amazon wants to do here is build a giant warehouse that will be closer to its customers . . . with salaries appropriate to those who work in a warehouse. Perhaps somewhat better salaries than in other local warehouses?
Have I got that right? If not, please explain.
1
@LennyM The jobs at these two locations would be high tech and white collar. Amazon warehouses are located in relatively low-income areas near but outside of metropolitan areas.
11
I hardly expect corporate shill Cuomo to do the right thing, but thanks to the authors for saying what that is anyway. Amazon has been advertising that it's coming to our country for a while now, and its first priority seems to be squeezing out local bookshops as best it can. Buyer beware.
11
So many good points here. If Amazon had to go somewhere, I wish it could have been Newark. I was there recently to attend a concert and while there have been some improvements around the Prudential center, this is clearly a city that could use an infusion of money and jobs. It is a major transportation hub with proximity to the dense Northeast population. The local population lacks the education level found in NYC but that could be remedied over time with more investment on the part on Amazon, which could have really improved this struggling city.
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@Monica
There's no way that Newark could supply or attract or educate the high tech programmers it needs here.
I don't think you understand the gulf between the typical Newark resident and someone who can work at this level.
9
@Josh Hill
Newark no, but there are so many high tech programmers who live in Staten Island and New Jersey and commute to NYC on a daily basis. They would not mind to trade an almost two hour commute for a half hour ride to a location in Newark as long as the area is secured.
28
@Josh Hill
If the jobs are there, programmers will come. Amazon would simply need to pay them more. Quality of life arguments are simply a tactic designed to get wage concessions from high demand specialties.
Also remember, Amazon promised $100k salaries no matter where they locate. A much greater portion of income is going to cost of living in New York. This makes employees, particularly younger employees, less mobile in the labor force and more tied to Amazon. In real terms, New York is a pay cut compared to Newark even before financial incentives.
As Teachout notes, a company like Amazon is always seeking ways to control the terms of negotiation. This applies to highly skilled workers as much as the warehouse. Anything for an advantage.
9
The most stunning part of this experience is the complete lack of transparency regarding corporate tax breaks throughout the United States. The public is completely in the dark on how their taxes will be spent to subsidize whatever corporation has successfully bribed a politician.
At the same time, voters are seeing an increasing number of ballot measures on many other issues. I, for one, see both a problem and a solution! States should take the authority away from their executive branches to willy-nilly hand out tax breaks. Put each tax incentive on a ballot, and let the people decide how to spend their money.
151
What if one changes the name to Sears and imagines the future. What will the world do with all the "fulfillment centers and headquarters?" When Walmart implodes, what will happen to all the big boxes it used to occupy? There's plenty in this region sitting empty. I wince when I get asked at Whole Foods if I am a Prime member. Is there an obscenity to reply with that is not obscene?
There is an alternative to Amazon in every share of their market. This business should remain aware they are not impregnable and learn the definition of humility. Fair wages are a good start.
Small business does not need the likes of this model to thrive, there plenty of can do ways to be self employed without having someone else's hand living in your pocket.
11
In all these deals NY agrees to deals that seem good, but always involve letting the other party build their buildings, or move their business to the city before fulfilling their part of the deal. If Amazon wants to move in then they should be forced to wait to move in until their money has paid for infrastructure improvements, transit improvements, low-income housing additions, etc. in the area where they plan to locate.
The impact then will be less hard on the people in those neighborhoods.
The motivations for the writers here is noble and I completely agree with them, but, until our governments decide that siding with the citizens is more important than siding with big money people and firms, we will continue our decent into a neo-feudalistic society. We might as well do what we can to have our overlords buy us a new subway line or two, and few apartments for the indigent--the government isn't about to do any of this on its own.
10
"For every job Amazon may create today, hundreds of jobs at small businesses could be lost."
Bravo! This is the exact problem with the Amazon deal - it follows the "big box store" model. Just look at all the small businesses stores like Home Depot and especially Walmart have put out of business. Yes, NY could use the new jobs, and it could easily supply the talent to fill them. But at what price?
Governor Cuomo needs to show New Yorkers what the details of the NY bid are before it goes any further. He can't keep the voters in the dark like this. Where's all that transparency of government he keeps on talking about?
And Zephyr, it's great to see you still active in the state dialog. Keep up the good work!
145
@Max Dither --
Sorry, but this is just hyperbole.
How many employees does the average small store have? Four or five, probably, including the owner and at least one family member who is probably working there without pay.
Small stores often have inconvenient hours, no parking, limited inventory, etc. And honestly, it's not like they have different merchandise that what's available at Amazon or a big box store.
The small stores that I shop at offer something more -- unique products, services or classes or workshops that interest me. If small stores want to survive, that's what they need to do -- offer something different. They've allowed themselves to be commoditized out of existence. Why do you want to force people to pay more money for the same items?
31
@Max Dither
The problem of course being that the assertion is absurd, to the point of Trumpian dishonesty. While Amazon is more efficient than mom and pop stores, it is hardly at a ratio of hundreds to one.
7
@Josh Hill and other replies. It's important to remember not to go along with the fingerpointing that it's consumers' fault for not "shopping locally". The #1 reason above all that small businesses fail in NYC is due to unobtainable commercial lease prices. People shopping at big box stores putting small businesses out is both an inflated minor truth and a false equivalence.
4
Small businesses in NYC will continue to suffer--or prosper--no matter where Amazon builds its HQ2 v1 or v2.
Virtually every major city in the country would be thrilled to have HQ2; and dropping 25,000 more employees into NYC's huge labor pool would hardly be noticed.
Also, according to www.metro.us May 24, 2018, "...more than 264,000 people moved to New York in the past year," a much larger source of population growth than HQ2 employees will represent (unless average family size of HQ2 employees is 10+, which is highly unlikely.
Further, these new Amazon employees would patronize NYC shops, restaurants, etc.; pay city and state sales and income taxes; all of these ae substantial and on-going fiscal positives.
Of course there should be scrutiny. And of course there are infrastructure and transportation issues to address, but they are being and will continue to be addressed.
The bottom line is that HQ2 will have a substantial net benefit to NYC and NY State.
Disclosure: I and my family members are not Amazon employees, vendors, P.R. persons or lobbyists.
45
I can understand the very real concern about the shift from retail to on line shopping and what that has meant, and will continue to mean, for many retail businesses. But that train has left the station. Even big companies have been unable to or too late trying to reinvent themselves in order to compete and thrive in the digital age. But turning away thousands of local jobs is smacks of putting one's head in the sand. I find it very difficult to believe everyone in Seattle would agree the city has suffered because Amazon "has pushed up home prices and led to increased homelessness". I suspect there is another side to that story that would provide at least a modicum of balance to this opinion piece.
28
Analogizing Seattle's experience in bargaining with Amazon to the experience that New York City would prospectively have is a bit dramatic. Amazon boasts ~50,000 employees in Seattle's greater metropolitan area, which has an economy of $350 billion; it would bring 25,000 employees to New York City's $1.7 trillion economy. The balance of power dynamics would be very different.
And the argument that "New York should not support a company known for squashing small business" is irrelevant, and based upon a premise that is fundamentally untrue. Amazon enables millions of small businesses to distribute their wares around the world, surpassing the scope of business they could have previously expected. So, while "mom and pop" stores may suffer as consumers seek more convenient ways of shopping (not a bad thing), many other small businesses thrive because of Amazon, not in spite of it.
58
@Alex
And don't forget, Seattle (WA state as a whole) has no income tax. We have not prospered from Amazon's highly paid workers as you might think or as will happen in NY.
1
Location selection for facilities is one of the critical decisions in logistics with many variables. In all likelihood, Amazon has already decided where the new facilities would be based on the key variables in their logistics system. Pitting cities against each other to chiles benefits for Amazon is nothing short of extortion. ALL the cities should refrain from giving in to this tactic and put their taxpayers under years of burden. The benefits offered are generally benefits imagined on a holodeck.
12
Welcome to the real economy gentlemen where you have to indulge in real competition and create real value every day. Amazon may be the big bad bully but notice it pays better wages and benefits than any of the main street merchants and the suburban box stores so beloved of the civil servants. Amazon does not need New York State or city permission to expand into suburban New York. I am sure NJ, CT or PA will be more than ready to eat New York's lunch. Union busting is a perfectly legal way of doing business. Tell me one Business that actually welcomes unions? New York state revenue comes via the Investment Banks and hedge funds located there, not exactly model corporate citizens and recipients of numerous taxpayer bailouts to boot. Once wall street goes into the next bust, New York may feel lucky to have a stable employer like Amazon.
10
@Rahul "Welcome to the real economy gentlemen"? This piece was written by a man and a woman.
Amazon doesn't pay better wages or benefits, that's the issue. Look at the experience Seattle has had with Amazon; this isn't theoretical, it's a real-world example of what it's like to have an Amazon headquarters in an American city, and the felty it demands over everything from worker compensation to tax law. Your championing of union busting may be "perfectly legal"--I don't think the writers are disputing that--but the net outcome of such practices, as we've seen over the past half century or so, is a depreciated value of living as a whole. Things like child labor were also once perfectly legal and economically valuable to business, but it took organizing to erode such things for the greater health of society.
27
@Sarah -- how many employees of how many small businesses have the ability to buy healthcare at work? How many are paid more than the minimum wage? How many are family members who work without being paid?
Maybe it's time to stop romanticizing small businesses.
1
@Rahul
I believe you mean "Welcome to monopoly."
It's clear that Amazon "needs" NYC -- or any other urban area -- to give tax breaks and provide infrastructure so it can turn a profit.
This is far cry from the "free" enterprise you espouse in your comment. Funny how the freedom of unregulated capitalism often comes at the expense of the worker/consumer it supposedly benefits.
Two cheers for capitalism . . . and two cheers for regulation: the only way capitalism can survive.
2
Amazon is a powerhouse for unlocking the economic potential of small businesses. Its features for allowing anyone to make money are expansive.
I once bought a pricey technical book on optics which I enjoyed more than I understood. After a few years, I checked to see if there was a new edition and discovered that my copy would sell for about twice what I paid. I was able to sell it through Amazon and pocketed $180 that I could never have gained otherwise.
6
I agree! Amazon is responsible for destroying so many small businesses; it is not a friend to entrepreneurs. I do not support Amazon, I shop locally and when I shop online I go to small online retailers or manufacturer websites. If it must, Amazon should go where jobs are needed most in the country (West Virginia maybe?), pay living wages to its workers, and do something good for a change.
39
@CJ
Let me get this straight...
Amazon is a big bad capitalist bully, so it should move to some downtrodden area "where jobs are needed most in the country" like West Virginia, a place which would have zero leverage, be 100% dependent on Amazon, and cannot supply any of the labor that Amazon needs.
Right. Guns would literally blaze.
@AGuyInBrooklyn: I know how lefty libs in blue coastal cities are snobby elitists....BUT....West Virginia is beautiful....affordable....has many people EAGER for good jobs....and if you offer $100K for a job there, MANY workers would happily relocate to a lower population, less costly city so long as THEY are well paid! $100K in West Virginia would spend like $300K in New York City. I believe they could instantly attract all the high quality workers they needed AND bring in so much support business -- restaurants, coffee shops, wine bars, etc. -- that people would flock to wherever they decided to locate.
Picking LIC and DC is a pure lack of imagination.
2
You got a point here. As much as we appreciate the convenience, and sometimes the prices, of this behemoth Amazon, we must also fight for the "Mom and Pop' shops that give their areas a sense of community, looking after each other, a trust easily broken when a giant store disrupts, even destroys, it. Once lost, could therebe any remedy...other than the crying, and despondency? Gentrification, as it brings change and 'improvements', it can also dislodge it's people, and prove malevolent instead.
9
@manfred marcus, last night I needed a bulky, heavy product on my way home from work. I purchased it from a huge chain. I didn't have a large selection to choose from. It hit me, "darn, why didn't I plan ahead and get from Amazon?" The mom & pops are no longer viable.
It is a pleasure to learn and one of the many foundations of a democracy, for different opinions to be aired. Thank you.
8
Amen. These "beauty" contests have an unseemly similarity to the Miss America Contest, except, for most of us, the prize is even more worthless than a rented tiara. I'm a Bostonian, and was relieved a few years ago when a referendum on applying to host the Olympics turned this "opportunity" down, thus sidestepping years of chaos, traffic, and rodent migrations. I am also relieved that Boston appears to have avoided the short list for Amazon's HQ2.
In an economy with extraordinarily low unemployment, the effect of HQ2 on any city will be to push up real estate costs and displace/disempower all but the politicians, real-estate moguls, and financial institutions who brokered the deal in the first place.
161
@SAF93 I am relieved, as well, that my city Philadelphia was spared this "win".
No, Amazon is not perfect. Amazon is, however, one of the very few tech companies who build their campuses in a city environment rather than closing themselves off to the outside world. Their employees support countless other businesses in downtown Seattle.
38
@shaun
And those "other businesses" are now able pay wages that allows their employees to compete for housing with tens of thousands of highly paid out-of-staters imported by Amazon?
Nope, the locals are run out of their own hometown (or onto the streets if they were already struggling to begin with).
8
Cuomo is great at talking the talk, but he will never walk the walk. Of course Cuomo will sell out the interests of progressive people for his own short term gain, or the perception of gain. For years, Cuomo has acted in a manner that is detrimental to the people of New York, while making the people believe he is doing them a favor. Of course, it is easy to do when so much of New York State government is conducted in secret without public scrutiny. Sure, some politicians get to see what is happening (3 men in a room), but the public never gets to see the price that is being paid to those politicians until it is too late.
23
I agree wholeheartedly. My business (located in NY) relied on Amazon and registered millions of dollars of sales, in fact we were a good part of the reason for the success of the Kindle Fire and other Amazon devices. But that didn't stop Amazon from deciding that they could manufacture an excuse to terminate my account the day before a five-figure holiday payment was due. We were instantly crippled. Attempts to rectify the situation were brushed off and ignored. They could not care less. I haven't bought an item from them since and I can think of much better ways to spend that money than to roll out a red carpet worth hundreds of millions.
290
@Jason
Please call Mr. Cuomo and tell him that.
Jeff Bezos is a wolf in sheep's clothing with an enormous ego that cannot be satisfied.
I'm sorry for your business losses.
23
@SMR Actually I just did today!
12
@Jason Sounds familiar. I set up an Amazon seller account to Kon Mari some old stuff. After making and fulfilling tons of sales, my account was frozen on a shipping technicality for my last sale, along with all money I was still owed. Even though the issue cleared itself up, their system withheld my money for far longer. Do their impressive systems not know whether a seller is paid or not? I threatened to file a report with the AG, and then was almost instantly paid. After that, I don't buy anything on Amazon.
12