The national disgrace: NRA, Electoral College, and Trump.
These are the American insanities.
9
I get so tired of seeing the pundits pretend that Trump is someone who could be "worked with" on anything. Anything. At this point, believing that might be a sign of mental illness.
9
The NYT says ‘This has to stop!’ The NYT says ‘No one is trying to take away your guns.’ So. NYT. What do you propose be done?
2
Sometimes I am just overwhelmed with rage at the idiots who think more guns will improve things.
Hey, I know! I'll go get a gun, so I can argue more convincingly with these people! God knows they can't be reasoned with.
2
The only important thing to the NRA is $$$. Peoples lives, not so much.
2
And then there's the ongoing gun violence in Democratic-run inner cities like Chicago and Baltimore to name just a couple.
When did the NYT start publishing Science Fiction? None of the proposals or conjectures will ever come to pass.Would it were not so.
Has Felutia become safer then Main St USA?
If you need a gun to feel safe in the US, they should be issued free of charge to foreign tourists when they get off the plane.
A well regulated militia means that everyone with a gun needs to be in a militia, and regulated, otherwise they’re a danger to everyone else without a gun.
People wouldn’t feel the need for much self protection if the guns were locked up in gun clubs . The animals would feel safer, too. All the fake controversy and hand wringing makes Americans look stupid.
6
Today the NYT is reporting
"Melbourne Stabbing Spree Leaves Two Dead, Including Attacker
A knife-wielding man was fatally shot by the police in Melbourne on Friday after he stabbed three people, killing one, in what the authorities described as a terrorist attack."
Wouldn't it be great if our crazed killers were limited to this?
1
An honorable and caring NRA would help: one that listened to its honest members.''
We are smack dab in the middle of a thousand car pileup with no end in sight.
1
Clearly, we are at war with the NRA.
4
By "lived through" you mean SURVIVED?!
We live through difficulties, not things that kill.
Interesting differences between US and British examples:
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/live-through
The New York Times is now trying flattery on Trump to get him to do something about America's horrible gun problem. Smart tactic, since Trump needs constant adulation to feed the bottomless pit of his ego. Probably won't work though, since the gun lobby has its hooks on him, and if there's one thing he needs more than people who worship him, it's people who give him money.
2
Tsutomu Yamaguchi lived through two nuclear explosions....
What's next ? Probably the emergence of Christian evangelical clergy evoking the 'sinfulness' of the fallen victims. Their lack of 'grace' and frequentation of venues of 'sin' will be interpreted as the reason why the 'Lord works in mysterious ways'..... the most disgusting phrase in the English language justifying everything mediocre and brutish about the human condition.
As long as America remains a superstitious and culturally backward nation, the NRA will continue to keep innocent Americans in their crosswords with reckless abandon.
2
I was glad to hear the students from Parkland weren't discouraged. 50 years ago, I picketed in front of NRA headquarters after Bobby Kennedy was assassinated--but the NRA is now even stronger. Now, some people have survived TWO mass murders. Must EACH of us lose a loved one before the gun lobby is stopped?
2
People make the argument that guns keep us free, and that when a tyrant comes along we will fight our way to freedom. They say that when tyrants come, the first thing they do is take away guns. This latter statement is true, but it doesn't by any means prove the likelihood of the former.
Show me an example where a states descent from light to darkness was stopped by armed citizens. Let's look at some of the notable cases. The Bolsheviks steamrolled the Kerensky government in 1917. The citizenry was pretty well armed, with a percentage of the population engaged in WWI (therein lay the problem). There were no pushback on Hitler in 33 despite the fact that the country had moderate arms ownership. No one seriously pushed back as Mugabe descended into autocracy despite the fact that Zimbabwe had firearm ownership. When citizens start using guns it gives the oppressor a convenient excuse for indiscriminate slaughter. Imagine Tienanmen Square if the students were armed. Tienanmen was a tragedy, but it would have been a hundred times worse with armed citizens slaughtered by troops, and the moral clarity of what happened would have been washed away.
Can someone come up with an example where disorganized citizens with guns held off the bad guys in the last couple of hundred years?
7
Thoughts and prayers, one more time, wasted sentiment.
2
It just got personal I went to the same high school Vintage, in Napa as Alaina Housley.... what a nightmare... 18 years old freshman at at Pepperdine... what about what Ventura County is going through, shooting now fire... Both "MAN" made disasters... I live in Oceanside instead of Napa because of 2017 October fires..."MAY SOMETHING FINALLY CHANGE IN GUN VIOLENCE IN THE NAME OF "ALAINA HOUSLEY"..
I fear I am running out of steam
writing to you
NYTImes but here goes...
thank goodness,
we elected a Democratic House
which gives us hope.
To quote Cynthia Ozick,
“In the madness of despair
lies the sanity of hope”.
Members of our newly elected House
are committed to finding solutions
for this madness.
There have been 307 mass
shootings already in 2018...
the numbers of deaths have
increased every year.
No one is immune from suffering...
children, every religious group,
all racial and national groups
have been affected.
When will it be enough?
Please, editorial board,
keep writing...
People, stay outraged...
Government...please enact laws
to make it more difficult for
people to buy war-grade weapons
and ammunition.
This should not be our norm,
we can be better than this.
Who will have the courage of Emmett Till's mother? Until legislators are forced to look at crime scene photos they can continue hiding behind their NRA-paid for rhetoric. Let gun-control advocates take a page from anti-abortion people---show gruesome photos. Add quotes from first responders. You know "this is the worst I've seen. And I've worked air crashes." Confront legislators at all levels with the horrors of military-grade weapon outcomes. Dare them to look...and then offer only thoughts and prayers. Dare their voters to do the same.
4
NRA funnels Russian money to US politicians. Shady real estate dealing funnels money to shady developers (won't mention any names here) who become politicians. Unlikely that those greedy sleazeballs are willing to drain the swamp they are so comfortable splashing around in. Would be great to see the nations "leader" (ha ha) push back on gun lovers as hard as he does on the "enemies of the people" (the ones with pens, not guns). Hopes and prayers that it could happen though!
1
As a European I am amazed that you still accept living in a country where the risk of getting shot on the streets are seemingly accepted, and that gathering with friends runs the risk of being targeted by a mass shootings.
Why is it so important that civilians need to carry guns? Haven’t you moved beyond civil war? I can hardly assume that any Americans truly want to use their arms to overthrow the government... who need so powerful guns other than military personnel?
Isn’t all these talks about restricting for people under 21 futile when so many weapons are already in circulation?!? I know your history is different from ours, but I hope and pray that eventually someone wakes up and passes a bill that pulls all these arms out of the hands of regular Joe and Jane (and their criminal counterparts). Citizens in similar countries with less access to weapons don’t have these mass shootings. And they don’t need them. Neither do you.
3
Plenty of speculation about what Trump might do. But this is Trump. He ‘might’ do just about anything, wake me up when he actually does somthing, anything, positive.
1
there are lots of Americans in Chicago and other urban areas that have seen gun violence on many many occasions.
2
The media must stop giving publicity to mass killers. Why are fans not televised when they run onto a professional field at a sporting event? Because if they were given televised recognition more would do it. Journalistic integrity? What are we learning? Integrity, in this situation, is not publicizing the name and face of these mass killers. Take away their 15 minutes of fame and watch how significantly the number of these incidents decline.
1
I do believe that gun controls are justified and should be practical and need not be prevented by the second amendment.
However, I really am surprised by the assertion that reasonable people should be willing to surrender their guns to prevent any possibility that they be used violently against other people. Reasonable people rarely have their guns used against other people. It's the people who become unreasonable that are the problem.
Given the real risks of harming others, this argument must be applied to cigarette smokers and anyone who drives any automobiles on public roads because both cause far more injuries and deaths to others than any use of guns in peace time ever has. There is no moral high ground in this argument, it just selectively ignores the reasonable application of it to apply it to selective risks. The purpose being to simplify the solution into something that can be eliminated once and for all time.
1
In the hands of non military personal the gun do not serve any meaningful purpose
2
I like the message here that perhaps the President can set aside some of that right wing adoration to truly do something for "law and order" and common sense. Unfortunately, while passing some common sense regulation like universal background checks and eliminating bump stocks and expanded magazines (this hasn't happened yet?), the ultimate solution requires much stronger leadership and vision. A problem well defined is a problem half solved and we have problems with legal and illegal gun use. For legal gun owners, there needs to be more oversight regarding change in people's mental health state (like this shooter), connections to felonies and domestic violence charges, and more training on use and storage. For illegal use, with the infinite amount of funds thrown at our military and security resources, why is it that this country cannot find the ability to shift some of the resources to research and uncover major channels for illegal gun trafficking and suffocate them? A national push that may slightly inconvenience law abiding gun owners but puts much stronger tracking of all gun sales and resales is critical. And that includes engaging manufacturers, distributors, border security, ATF, and local law enforcement. I cannot see an effort like this happening without leadership from the very top.
6
To start with we need to recognize that there is an unspoken group identity that exists between mass shooters. They communicate to others with kill counts, venues of attack, and weapons used, which are displayed on the front pages. The ball really started rolling with Eric Harris and his first acolyte Dylan Klebold. It’s now being picked up and mutating from a “violence for violence sake” into terrorism, with the likes of Dylan Roof and Elliot Rodger.
That said we are not helpless. Stricter gun controls do make a difference and save lives. The number of victims in Las Vegas was much greater than this most recent shooting for obvious reasons.
I do see that there is some reasoning in the 2nd Amendment, but we should never assume that it doesn’t deserve constant examination, study and understanding as the NRA would suggest.
In regards to breaking the culture, we need to start redefining masculinity in a way that does not require us men to react with anger or violence at any perceived or real slight. Strength should be seen as learning to take an ego blow like a boxer takes a hit while sparing. I’m certain that this goes way deeper than this surface analogy but we have to start excavating and rebuilding if we want to put an end to these mass shootings.
7
In Melbourne, Australia, last night, we had a supposed terrorist attack by a guy with a knife in the middle of the city. One person was killed, two wounded. The attack would have been much worse if not for our strict gun laws, and some guys with a shopping trolley and a chair who were able to fight back. The attacker, now also dead, was shot and at a natural disadvantage to armed police. Do gun laws work? Unequivocally, yes.
The current situation with shootings in the US is roughly the equivalent of 2 Vietnam wars, per year., in casualties. Why is that situation being tolerated? NRA membership is about 1.7% of the total population of the USA, and it's undeniably driving Federal policy without any real challenge? Would you call that democracy? Or sanity?
If you're using "liberty or death" as an argument, you've got precious little liberty, if you're allowing yourselves to be governed by fear. The net effect is that you have "the right to be shot for no reason at all", and give tactical advantages to shooters. There is no working logic at all which supports even the theory of unrestricted gun ownership.
9
"...reducing gun violence..." ???
With a goal that low, our aspirations are clearly one part of the problem. If we want incremental reform in the size of massacres, then the final compromise will be disappointingly familiar to what we have now.
Public Health did not want to reduce the incidence of small pox; The goal was eradication. We did not quarantine Typhoid Mary to lower the rate of disease, but to eliminate the disease. Gun violence is a public health threat like anthrax in the Post Office.
The goal must be is prevention and zero-tolerance for unauthorized gun violence. Guns should be quarantined from all public spaces. MAGA just like during the days of the Old Wild West. Community police must be 'armed' with a radio, an ID vest and first-hand knowledge of the neighbors. The tools used to prevent intimate partner violence could benefit everyone.
Try being nonviolent and inspirational rather than coercive for just one day.
8
WE the People are faced with having to forget the vision of "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" as long as we allow anyone to own guns designed to kill as many humans as possible. Many of us now know of someone who has been gunned down in a church, synagogue, mall, concert, school. grocery or office. Parents are apprehensive as their kids go off to school. Kids practice active shooter drills. This is not the America I am proud of. We must demand that military weapons are for the military only, as a start. Yelling about mental health will not solve any of this. It is an absurd response to an ever increasing problem.
6
A gun, any gun is simply a tool. Shotguns are generally used for bird hunting, rifles for small and large game. Handguns for personal defense. As long as the "feel good liberals" continue to leave the "mentally challenged" on the street these situations will continue. Prior to the mental institutions turning all the inmates loose mass shootings were quite rare although they have happened at least since the 1920s. The murder rates in places like Chicago will likely continue considering the citizens of that city. In the United Kingdom there is a high assault and murder rate by folks using knives since they have such strict and (I dare say unreasonable) gun laws. A knife ban next? What then, baseball bats? The rabid anti-gunners such as many posting on this site have no use for a fire arm (because they have no idea how to use them and are frightened if they even see a gun) need to get out in the world, educate themselves, REALLY try and understand the NRA's mission, understand the ATA, PPA. But no, hey buy into the lies of people like Bloomberg and others that want Americans disarmed for various reasons. We keep firearms in my office and carry most of the time. I refuse to be a victim.
@John Beargrass Yes indeed, arm everyone from the age 7 and above and we are all good. Do you have any clue how many people are shot and killed in this country every day by people who are perfectly sane or by accident? You get in a car every day because you have a registration, a license, pass a test and are tracked for all your violations. You can be pulled over at any time and have to produce your record which is tracked in a database. That same level of oversight and much more is needed to ensure people are more respectful of the much more dangerous right of gun ownership they were given which impedes MY right to walk freely without fear.
3
@John Beaargrass "As long as the "feel good liberals" continue to leave the "mentally challenged" on the street these situations will continue." - I don't know what your source is on this but you should seek out better ones. In California Ronald Reagan put the mentally ill out on the street (closed the institutions without fully setting up the community houses), and currently California just passed Prop 2 which gives money for this very cause. Don't continue this canard that liberals don't care about mental health or crime, so you can deflect from the deeper sources of mass shootings.
1
Let's quit talking. When nothing was done after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, I was horrified to see us put up with this monstrosity. We all had seen enough, already. When I read the news about another mass shooting, my memories return to Sandy Hook. It was around Christmas of 2012. There was no holiday for 26 people plus the shooter's mother. Now, in just over a year, 124 people are dead due to a mass shooting.
It's time for action. It can't be partisan. It has to be purple. Now that the House has flipped, this would be a good time to introduce legislation and, as this article suggest, Trump is an ideal president. But remember, it has to be Trump's idea, even if it isn't. Someone will have to make him aware of how his approval ratings will rise and that he deserves to stand upon the pedestal of eternal superiority. I know you think I'm making light of the shootings, but I'm not. Look who you have as president. Look at his psychology. Psychology is often a good strategy to achieve a good outcome.
5
I very much like the tone of this editorial. I wish that Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Trump would work together on this and so many other issues as well.
The gun problem though is a conundrum that is going to need more than stricter back ground checks.
California has the strictest gun laws in the US (see the companion article to this editorial) and yet here we are.
What new law is going to solve this problem or even just ameliorate it?
17
@gpickard
If California has strict gun control laws, as you rightly point out, then all any would-be assassin needs to do is drive across the state line (there are no borders or checkpoints) into bordering Arizona, which has some of the LEAST gun control laws, and load up their car to their hearts content. There are no background checks required on private purchases. A quick drive back shows how preposterous gun control laws are at the state level.
The same applied when people pointed out how strict gun control was in France, yet couldn't understand the massacres there. Clearly, the murderers didn't purchase their guns in France, but simply drove them in after purchasing them anywhere else on the European continent.
9
@gpickard Like Chicago, our CA gun laws are tight. However, you can drive right over to the next state and buy the biggest arsenal you want. Same with Chicago. All the weapons in Indiana are just a three hour drive from Chicago to the biggest gun emporium in Gary.
5
@gpickard
Raise better sons.
4
The Democrats in the House who ran on gun control proposals are asserting that they address the problem which this gun man illustrated and virtually none of them can. This man was able to get the gun legally because he was not categorized as anyone which the system could prevent from doing so. He bought a legal gun and obtained an extra large magazine which are already illegal. He did not use any kind of rifle. He passed a background check and his gun was registered. He was a veteran trained in the safe use of firearms.
What his problem seems to have been was the psychological distress from his experiences while serving in the military and those problems not being resolved before he had access to guns. So there is the gap in the system, removing guns from people who suffer from the normal human pain and disorientations that result from participating in war and who have not been able to adjust. Not glitzy and sexy enough for any politician to propose but that is what needed to be done to keep this person from taking the lives of 12 people.
1
You are incorrect. He was red flagged, however, the law is not normally enforced in CA
1
If there was nothing in his background, no matter the system it would not have impeded him from obtaining the gun. Laws and procedures not followed effectively do not exist.
The name and age of each person killed due to senseless, preventable gun violence should be prominently published every day, in every newspaper in America: a tragic, running total so that we do not forget that each victim was a human being who no longer walks among us. The NRA and politicians who turn a blind eye, are defiant, or offer weak platitudes while refusing to endorse/vote for sensible gun legislation might then be held more accountable, and some life-altering injuries and deaths might be prevented.
1
This editorial urges “common-sense gun measures.” California already has some the toughest gun laws in the US. Yet all those guns laws and even the laws forbidding murder were not able to stop this awful shooting.
Let’s move from wishing for common-sense gun laws to specifics. Exactly what gun law(s) should be passed that would actually prevent such a shooting while passing Constitutional muster?
The fact is there are none. If there were, they would have been passed long ago.
2
@Son of Liberty
There is no good excuse for not removing guns from people who are likely to go off, even if it's due to some temporary problem that will likely go away. We could do that routinely. There is no freedom in the constitution that cannot be restricted when it's exercise prevents others from enjoying their basic rights so seriously as is the misuse of firearms.
2
Trump? Do something about this? That's wishful thinking with daisies in your hair. The NRA illegally laundered money from the Russians to the Trump campaign. They are part of his illicit money pipeline, so why would he oppose them on anything?
4
"This has to stop"
But it won't. We have already lost this war but just do not have sense to surrender. Ignorance, fear, lack of education, vulgarity have won. Decency is so very 20th century.
4
This can't be a serious article? Can anyone, even for one second, believe Trump would ever work with Nancy Pelosi on anything, least of all anything related to guns?
Just a public service reminder - nobody in power has fixed this insanity where people have to survive multiple mass murders involving gun violence, because none of them have the courage to fix it. And now, you have in Trump, an utter coward. He cares only for himself. Period. Trump does not care if anyone other than himself is killed by a gun. As far as gun violence in this country, Trump will not work with anyone, never lift a finger himself, or give it a thought.
5
No other country in the world can make the claim of the headline. American Exceptionalism. MAGA.
When you prey on fear, guns sell well.
5
Sadly, I doubt this president has ever done anything in his life solely on the basis that it was the right thing to do. The only hope is to align new gun safety legislation so that it is politically expedient for the president to throw his weight behind it. A long shot at best, but it's our only hope out of this groundhog day insanity.
3
This president declared he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and wouldn't lose any votes. With that attitude, I won't anticipate him advocating and signing any meaningful gun legislation.
4
"If...Mr. Trump are sincere" is usually a good sign to skip the rest of the paragraph.
Deadly violence upsets most people, and Mr. Trump might try to leverage that upset if anyone in a relevant position is foolish enough to trade off something Trump cares about - which is only ever Trump, and in this context investigating Trump and his inner circle - for cosmetic concessions on gun control.
If someone in power makes the mistake of going down that path, Mr. Trump's optimal response would be to drag the game out as long as possible. Just like any other hostage, it has zero value to the criminal once it is set free or killed off.
There is probably a grand shift that needs to happen, including treating semi-automatic weapons as a distinct class much like we do fully automatic ones, limiting or ending carrying permits and "stand your ground", addressing how many people have serious brain injuries from sports or military service, and de-militarizing police. We need to remember what the Supreme Court looks like now, and what that likely means about the constraints on federal gun control.
Something should indeed be done about this epidemic of violence. Unfortunately, the federal government most likely needs to be fixed before it can meaningfully take on this challenge.
6
Nancy Pelosi spoke encouraging words last week when, as the apparent Speaker-in-Waiting, she attempted to tone down the divisive rhetoric which has been championed by the current House Republican majority, or at least by its dominant hard-right faction, and emphasized reaching out to the opposition and attempting to craft workable solutions.
However, she couldn't resist the temptation to temper her resolve with occasional jabs at past Republican offenses, of which there have been many. This is not the stuff of leadership that is our only hope to repair the enormous damage which has been inflicted by a Republican-controlled government. The House Democrats would be better served by electing one of their newer, younger, and more enlightened members to the Speakership if reconciliation with Republicans and reunification of our country is their objective.
As for America's first (and hopefully last!) child-president, how much stock can we place in his expressed desire, perhaps with more than a hint of tongue-in-cheek, for "a beautiful bipartisan-type situation”? About as much as we can in the maturity he demonstrated in handling the ill-advised dust-up involving a youthful, misguided White House intern when CNN veteran Jim Acosta posed a legitimate question during an official press session, "You (Acosta) are a rude, horrible person...".
We may nurture hope, but the sad reality is that nothing will change until we've rid ourselves of Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell, and their ilk.
1
Common sense gun reform will not take place without common sense.
3
@Ying Wang
Bill Clinton pass stricter gun laws and then George Bush refused to extend those bans. So, it can be done but then also undone by the GOP in the next election cycle.
1
It seems obvious the real problem was that there was only one security guard. Had there been a dozen armed guards at the entrance and the bartenders and waitstaff mandated to take marksmanship classes and carry automatics, this tragedy never would have occurred.
3
At least one of the sillier arguments used by gun advocates has been shown up in these two latest mass shootings. The argument is that more guns, specifically armed guards, would prevent these shootings. In California, the armed guard was the first fatality. An experienced police sergeant, armed of course, was also killed. in the synagogue shooting three of the - armed - police officers responding were wounded.
More guns does not make a safer community. Period.
7
The optimism about this week's election results, vis-a-vis gun control, is nice to read but seems quaint at best. Here in Oregon, eight counties approved (red counties did so by wide margins) a "2nd Amendment Preservation Ordinance" which empowers the County Sheriff to determine the constitutionality of gun laws. If a law is deemed unconstitutional by the county sheriff, it is effectively nullified in that county, and fines are levied on individuals or corporations who attempt to enforce said law.
This ordinance--probably better labeled as "ordnance" (ammo) in the culture war around guns--seems obviously unconstitutional, as it directly and nakedly subverts the separation of powers central to our system of governance.
Did the obvious unconstitutionality dissuade voters? No. Either out of ignorance of the (actual) law of the land, or indifference to aspects of the constitution inconvenient to their personal preferences, we now have 8 counties affirming they'd like to return to the wild west, where the Sheriff is all branches of government when push comes to shove.
It's nice to think these tragedies might make a difference. They'll never move people across the yawning gulf that exists on the gun issue in this country.
1
It is inconceivable to me that people-- parents!- are willing to say that the problem is too big, too hard, to multifaceted to tackle. We have an epidemic, and when faced with an epidemic, our approach needs to be all-encompassing: stricter gun safety laws, including stringent background checks, limits on ammunition purchases and semi-automatic weapons, restricting gun ownership for the mentally troubled, high quality affordable (or free) mental health care, programs to restrict access to guns for those who commit acts of domestic violence etc. Why can't we try all of the above?!
When the number of driving fatalities climbed too high we as a nation enforced seat belt laws, invented air bags and anti-lock breaks, mandated car seats and reduced highway speeds. Combined, many, many lives have been saved. We need the same attitude and comprehensive approach. Our children's lives are too precious to wait.
4
The NY Times is slowly but surely becoming an assessor before the fact in these shootings.
No one person thinks for one moment that the NY Times nor many of the organizations nor individuals that profess gun control mean anything other than to ban and confiscate weapons.
I have talked with people who work in some of those organizations and privately they will tell you the truth.
Is it any wonder that a core of Americans is fighting tooth and nail for a Constitutional Right (like it or not) that they have?
Until the NY Times, the organizations on so-called gun control, and the individuals who support them come out with a SPECIFIC plan which tries to address both gods, the Second Amendment and individuals slaughtering people, that is credible and believable to 2nd amendment advocates, then you folks are accessories before the fact in the continuing slaughter.
I have listed my ideas on this subject before in comments, hoping that someone at the NY Times may pick up the ball. I have run those ideas past friends who are ardent Second Amendment supporters as well as friends who are ardent supports of restricting gun rights. They all like the idea. Go look at my old posts and get behind ideas that will sell and may make a difference and stop your dug in the hells complicity to the problem.
@JD Many advanced nations have private citizens owning all sorts of guns. Reality is different than your idea of reality.
2
It is unclear to me how many so-called "good guys with guns" were present at or came to the bar in response to the shooting, except all reports say a security guard was the first to be murdered. Was he armed? The reports don't say. Reports also said four off-duty sworn officers were present. Were they armed? They are supposed to carry when they are off-duty. And certainly Sgt. Ron Helus was armed. That means there could have been as many as six armed and trained "good guys" none of whom were able to stop this massacre.
Now imagine what a teacher, legally carrying a handgun, and presumably trained to use it could do if someone intent on killing her and her students suddenly burst into her classroom. Advocates of this policy, including our president, who stupidly said an armed guard could have stopped the Pittsburgh massacre, are truly dead from the neck up. These people are clueless as to how much training, how many rounds must be fired, with both hands, not just the dominant hand, and how often to be proficient in combat with a handgun, not to mention what adrenaline does to someone in extremis? In fact, it is impossible to duplicate in a training environment what the stress of facing death does to the human mind and body. You draw a gun in self defense and you are looking death squarely in the face. Do you think your hand would shake? Do you feel lucky? Would you soil your underwear? Would you live to tell the story? Or would you dive for cover and forget you are packing?
8
Some say to at least ban high capacity magazines, and certain bullets, so some people will have a chance to escape when the shooter reloads.
That’s the best America can do?
So let’s put up with fewer people dying?
But hundreds of millions of citizens in most countries with well supported strict gun laws don’t have to worry about escaping. They don't encounter public massacrs because their politics rejects the warped US idea of ‘guns for all’ being linked to ‘freedom’.
Due to the insane influence of NRA on lawmakers, all our lives are in danger every day.
The US stands alone among modern countries in gun violence with its warped attitude toward guns as a right of all people, using the 2nd amendment as rationalization.
The normalization of guns and easy access enflames mentally unstable people to act out their hostile fantasies. Means, motive, opportunity.The publicity from each gun massacre can actually motivate the mentally susceptible.
State laws mean nothing, we need consistent national laws.
We must ignore the accusations of ‘big govt’. What we now have is big corporate domination of our gun laws.
So who is regulating who?
Instead of our govt regulating guns for our safety, our safety is regulated by high profit gun maker lobbies.
Our abnormal toleration of guns in society has been conditioned by gun maker public relations and campaign donations to the politicians we elect to work for us.
Any gun or 1 bullet is too much. 1 death is too much.
6
@Meredith
If we cannot bring ourselves to ban the guns and if men cannot bring themselves not to slaughter the innocent, then simply regulate the bullets.
We all heard Trump say that he’d end American Carnage. He lied about it in his Inauguration Speech.
3
@BBB. Everything Trump says, I believe the opposite.
4
If only everybody could agree on "common sense" gun laws, we might get somewhere.
I can't speak for all law-abiding gun owners, but if I had to, here's a list of ideas I've heard proposed, and my estimation of the likelihood of gun owners' support (FYI I am a younger veteran and NOT a member of the NRA):
Background checks for all? Sure.
Storage requirements for safety? Yes.
Mandatory training? Definitely.
Mental health care evaluation? Check..heck, make it annual.
"Assault" weapons ban? Well, I have no use for them, and I can concede that we can find alternatives in hunting and competitive shooting. I guess.
Magazine capacity ban? Would have severe economic implications for those that already own such firearms and magazines. Perhaps if it was grandfathered in.
Gun registration? Why? That doesn't seem to correlated with mass shootings as much as other things. Also ominous.
Insurance for gun owners? Well, do we really want gun ownership for the affluent only? Doesn't seem egalitarian, nor preventative. Same with ammunition taxation.
Semi-automatic firearm ban? That is ridiculous; the tech is 100+ years old and widespread. Also has those economic implications for existing owners.
Total gun ban? Not worth discussing, and also tyrannical. And unjustifiable. Don't make slippery slope arguments.
Let's specify what "common sense" laws we are talking about, and maybe you will find common ground with the millions of gun owners that are your neighbors, friends, and spouses.
1
Trump is all talk. He seldom considers anything past the immediate payoff for himself. He understands that gun control and the freedom to possess and to use guns is an important issue for the people so he’s bringing it up. But you can expect no good solutions from him only expedient proposals.
When there is a resolution, it won’t be one that is appealing to anybody. The side that fervently asserts that lives are not expendable but guns are, think that they have the more certain solution. No guns. The side that detests limits on their freedom to have and use guns, want to protect themselves by carrying guns and from possible tyranny by keeping their ownership of guns secret. Both are going to be disappointed. Who has which guns will be known. There will be private ownership of guns. Whether people can be trusted will be verified. Both sides will hate it, but both sides will go along with it.
1
Thank you for calling these horrendous events "gun massacres" instead of "mass shootings." It is important to name guns as a causal factor for these gun massacres could not be done without guns.
Also I hope people will stop calling guns "firearms." No one shouts, "He's got a firearm!" during one of these gun massacres. Why use the euphemism "firearm?" They're guns, and they kill people.
6
I applaud this good thinking.
Yes, limit guns and who can get them, and stop sales of assault weapons ,as well. The window of opportunity is open now.
But don't forget the most vulnerable among us who desperately seek killing as a solution.
Importantly, we must also make it easier and more affordable to get health care.
And we must strive to be a nation of law and humanity.
It wouldn't hurt to tone down angry violent words and outbursts, lies and cons, embracing the worst among us, but instead modeling respect and kindness and common sense.
All our people, our children, young people, struggling families, old people, returning soldiers, need a kinder gentler nation of peace and possibility.
The timing is now, with the new House and this president.
Go for it. The next shooting is in our hands to stop.
3
After grade-school children were gunned down, and Republicans declared that they were okay with that being the price if it meant even the slightest modification of gun laws, it became clear that there is only one way to address the mass shootings in America: vote them out.
7
With far more guns per capita than any civilized place on earth and no political will to do anything about the obvious escalation in mass shootings, we are literally witnessing the beginning of the end of public life in America. I know people who already won’t go to shopping malls for fear of being shot. Irrational? Maybe. But you need only the perception of risk to effect big changes in how we interact with each other. Apparently mass shootings are increasingly viewed as an acceptable price to pay for the “freedom” of owning guns, just like, I suppose, the carnage from auto accidents is an acceptable price to pay for the freedom of driving. But as this continues, we will retreat from public spaces and our liberties - save the almighty 2d amendment- will become illusory. Who needs foreign terrorists when we do the job for them?
3
There are more than 300 million+ guns in the hands of Americans today; stricter gun laws will not change that statistic much. For the most part, and outside of "Search and Seizure", these weapons will stay right where they are.
So while it is well and good that our lawmakers work on common-sense gun measures, until they allocate real money toward understanding why so many in this country are mentally ill, and how to effectively identify and treat them, the sickest portion of our society will continue to kill us with the guns already in their hands.
Repeal the Second Amendment - and the Electoral College, while we're at it.
3
Sickness of the soul is killing people, using guns as one of its arsenal items. Along with gun control someone, someday, may figure out why this society is so completely wrecked... and this was true before the current classless man took over.
"Mental illness" is used as the reason much of the time but most of the people committing these crimes kill themselves or try to flee or otherwise evade responsibility which makes me think: Not crazy, but crafty, abyssmally revolting unhuman pieces of detritus.
Guess I'm one person who has run out of sympathy or empathy.
2
I have a marksman medal and expert pistol medal. The military needed to train me to protect the nation. We were not warriors. Rather we were defenders. The carnage of full scale war, with weapons of unimaginable proportion are deterrents. We are allowing the lawlessness of places like Somalia and Yemen and central Africa to resemble United States. Ask any police officer or former military. They will tell you that the best thing they can use to describe their weapons is that they never had to use them. Isn't that the goal?
Somehow, the origins of the NRA as an organization for hunters, has been allowed to plant the seed and infiltrate our culture and make it a "gun culture." Hollywood and video game makers, you are not absolved either. It is neither a "game" nor is it "art". If you want to make "war movies", stick to history and show the absolute ugliness for all to see. Interview the actual combatants and let them tell you how "gun control" is not political. It is about sanity. It is about what kind of world you want to live in. The only thing that will stop a "bad guy" with a gun, is not a good guy with a gun. It means not letting him get one in the first place. It is making it unthinkable that you would never ever want to use one. It has been nearly 50 years since I pulled those triggers. I could not be more proud of that fact.
6
How many more First Responders have to die? Is that the price that the NRA extracts from each of our communities? How willing are we to recognize that First Responders are being put into harm's way?
3
"But Mr. Trump is the ideal president to tackle the issue. " What if Mr. Trump wore a jacket sporting the phrase "I really don't care, do u?". Would you still say this? Sorry, but I really don't understand the fantasy land view expressed in that paragraph, folks. Nor the paragraph that follows that one.
3
2 Times articles:
“Bearing F’s From the N.R.A., Some Democrats Are Campaigning Openly on Guns.”
and
“Another Mass Shooting, but This Time House Democrats Promise Action”
Wow, what progress!
This time? How many deaths does it take for the Democratic Party to start representing the rights of all Americans to live out their life expectancy?
In dozens of other democracies, restrictions on gun possession are widely supported by all parties—right, center, left--- and all citizens. Same nations with health care for all.
How many deaths do we tolerate as inevitable?
What does it take to stop rationalizing death and destruction by equating gun possession with ‘American Freedom’.
What does it take for congress to adequately fund CDC research into gun violence, then pass laws on basis of data and evidence and common sense?
No other democracy is so deluded by a warped credo, reinforced by gun maker subsidies to politics with election donations.
The NYTimes needs to interview some citizens of other countries and ask them why they support gun access restrictions. Then compare to the warped rationalizations of our gun lobby and their kept politicians. Compare and contrast.
3
this does have to stop. but we are going about it in the wrong way. "bad guys" will always be able to get guns either legally or illegally. the gun control laws take guns away from the good guys. no carry laws mean only the bad guys walk around with guns. this is why the liberal complaint of "why didn't the good guys with guns stop the bad guy" is absurd. because the good guy isn't carrying because he isn't allowed to. relax the carry laws. once every bad guy realizes everyone else in the room is armed he will have a whole different attitude because he knows he's not getting out alive. will we lose a few good people? maybe in the beginning. but in the long term? clearly the idea of tougher gun laws is not the answer. remember prohibition? that didn't work. the "war on drugs"? that didn't work either and now we are legalizing marijuana. but more prohibitive gun control will work? give me some of what their smoking because it must be good.
California has a Red Flag law. The shooter's Mother knew he was dangerous. His gun could have and should have been taken. This could easily have been avoided, which makes it even more senseless.
4
I have come to believe that the NRA has a point when it implies that the problem is that the American people do NOT have enough access to guns. The unhappy truth is, Americans are, on the whole, a barbarian, half-civilized bunch. They would probably carry on killing each other with gusto, with or without guns - it is just that, with guns, the killing is more efficient. Since Americans will not become civilized any time soon (that takes generations) they should be allowed unfettered access to guns. You and I may not barbarians, but the guy next door sure is. We need the guns to defend ourselves against the large number of barbarians like him in this country.
1
Imagine if we did what Israel has done - they stopped the violence of terror from getting to its people through a concerted effort of screening everyone who enters the public space. Private security and government officials cooperate and the violence that was their daily fare ebbed. We are not surrounded by hostile nations but we live in a violent world with a leader who likes to whip up the worst in us . . . when it comes to securing our public spaces maybe it's a good idea to let the Jews replace you since our safety at stake, hmm Mr. Trump . . .
1
This editorial seems written for Trump, with the intention for him to take the bait, pass gun laws and crow that ‘Even the failing New York Times calls me a hero’. Hope it works.
We are further along the path to seeing shootings as a form of protected speech than we are to a seeing ourselves protected from these pathetic losers. And I can't believe I just wrote that.
3
How do you spell gun control?
B-L-O-O-M-B-E-R-G
The whole country will be lousy with bike lanes, but he'll take care of the guns.
3
Who else is ready to repeal the Second Amendment and then ban guns in all states that don't want their citizens to be shot? Nothing will change until we do.
It is way past time to begin. There is no place for guns in a modern society, and no place for gun nuts, either.
2
The short term solution is to remove polticians who thrive on telling us how dangerous things are.
How aliens are are coming for us. How people from certain countries are all gang members, even 7-year olds. How jack booted thugs will confiscate our arsenals. How the Constitution says "everybody should have at least one assault rifle." How the last shooting could have been stopped by a good guy with a gun. Repeat this nonsense often enough and people start to believe it.
2
They aren't going to get through the senate ... forgedabboutit.
And the only thing that would have stopped this massacre are law(s) that would have prevented him from having the semi-auto handgun.
And the idea that Trump would do anything other than feed his ego and his "base" ... is nuts.
3
Wayne LaPierre calls the shots. Nothing will change. You want to reduce risk of mass shooting or any shooting... emigrate. This country is toast.
3
Whether intentional or not the editors used a well known tactic to sway Trump. The best way to the President’s heart and mind is through flattery. Next thing you know, he’ll be lauding The NY Times as the country’s greatest newspaper (which it is, of course.)
3
This time maybe people will listen
“If mr. trump and ms. Pelosi are sincere”——what world are you living in?
1
Thanks to the NRA, guns have become a prime cause of insecurity, here in the US.
2
The NRA will tell Trump what he wants.
3
Sure, let's see Trump supporters wrap their heads around that. I mean they will, but I'd like to see the mental gymnastics that will be required.
1
While I appreciate the attempt here to shame and flatter Mr. Trump into action, the editorial graciously bestows more power and resoluteness on him than he could ever posses.
Mr. Trump is a coward who can’t fire his own people in person, let alone stand up to the gun lobby.
What political capital?
3
California enjoys A-rating by Giffords Law center for its gun violence prevention laws, and the Times report headlines that California has the TOUGHEST GUN LAWS in the country. ( https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/us/california-gun-laws.html )
So, what else did you want done? The shooter was able to purchase his guns legally after subjecting himself to the background tests and despite the strict guns laws.
Why don't you muster the courage to write the B word: BAN guns by abolishing the second amendment?
Even then, this country is awash in guns and you would be arguing for closing the barn door after the horse had bolted.
Typical, meaningless hand-wringing by the Times that is more bent on pandering than on proposing workable solutions.
2
For starters we need to address the right-wing's ceaseless, well-funded propaganda and disinformation campaigns. Because of SCOTUS's Heller decision of 2008, we cannot ban guns. Yet Republicans and the NRA continue to lie, claiming the "government is coming for your guns," and conflating any form of gun control with a total ban. Magical thinking prevails over concrete, actual experience as right-wingers continually move the goal posts to justify the collection of personal arsenals, ranging from the Hollywood fantasy of the good guy with a gun, to the survivalist dream of fighting in the post apocalypse. Such counterfactuals are easy to sustain because the GOP actively prohibits scholarly and medical research about gun violence. Even professional historians who provide unwelcome facts about the 18th century origins and meanings of the Second Amendment are treated to campaigns of harassment and intimidation. The rhetoric of gun violence--as opposed to gun ownership-- is part of the Republican mainstream, as seen in the 2016 election when Trump's called for "second amendment solutions," and the Governor of Kentucky promised armed insurrection if Trump lost his presidential bid. In short, Republicans have successfully redefined gun ownership as a quasi-religious identity issue, which explains their indifference to the escalating human carnage and misery.
2
Another mass shooting. Some of the victims of the Las Vegas shooting had the opportunity to participate in a realistic reenactment. Among the many victims, an armed sheriff's sergeant is now dead. If there was ever any doubt, a good person with a gun is a highly imperfect match for a bad person with a gun.
3
As likely stated, these incidents are becoming common place. The fact that some Americans have been involved in two gun massacres is just inevitable odds at this point in history. There are smaller episodes regularly prominent in the streets of Chicago and other American cities. The majority of Americans are just beginning to speak out to address these tragedies. Changes to "gun rights" are long, long overdue.
2
The greatest threat to the lives of most of our citizens is the automobile. Over 40,000 of us died last year and many, many more were seriously injured and disabled for life. We as Americans depend on our passenger vehicles for every part of our lives, from making a living to practicing our religion, getting food, medical care and education. We love our cars and will not give them up, even where public transportation is available. We have a "car culture." Our cars give us freedom in more ways than a gun does. But look at how much government has regulated both our vehicle and our use of it! Why do we accept that regulation without organized, passionate protest about "taking away our rights"? Because no matter how much we want the freedom a car gives us, we also want to live to enjoy that freedom. We want some measure of safety for ourselves and our loved ones because we know that both cars and their drivers can kill. In fact, we demand it of our car makers, our lawmakers and enforcers. There is no Second Amendment for owners of cars, SUVs, motorhomes, motorcycles, trucks and buses in our Constitution (or even horses and carriages) but no politician would ever consider "taking our cars away." Maybe if enough politicians and advocates for sensible public safety regulation of guns and gun owners would start framing the issue in terms of cars and transportation safety, we might get past the blind passion fueled by the NRA to a place of reason and greater safety.
3
And the greatest threats to our automobiles are pot holes. From recent experience, Vermont to California, no one is doing anything about that either.
1
@abigail49 First off - you're %110 right! I'd like to compare the impact of cars and guns though. They cause roughly the same number of deaths if you include suicides. Imagine if vehicles were gone though. Society would grind to a halt! Car related deaths have been nearly halved since the late 60's, by improved regulation and safety, while usage has nearly doubled. What would happen if we took away all guns, or at least all that were not long barreled and loaded more than a couple of rounds as needed for hunting. Would society fall apart? Once we did that, it would take just a couple of years for cops to collect most of the out-there stock from people unwilling to return them..... The gun industry would go mostly under, but that's a $13.5 billion/yr business. Substantial, but not that painful of a loss. We lose about 25K people a year to homicides. Even if we say that half of those are bad hombres not worth crying about that leaves 12K innocent people (many of them kids) who got killed because of the easy availability of guns.
1
California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, fortunately. Hopefully it at least reduces the lethality of attacks when they occur. The police can also get court warrants to remove guns from persons that are deemed a threat to themselves or others. It would be fantastic if similar laws were passed at the federal level or by all the states. I think it will take many years before gun buybacks would be viable, or where the law could prohibit possession of a semi-automatic handgun with a 10-round magazine (which is the limit in California). In the hands of a trained, cold-blooded killer with multiple magazines, even this weapon can be extremely lethal. Limiting the maximum caliber handgun a civilian can possess might reduce lethality even further. Wide access to mental health services and more connected communities that reduce the number of men who are toxically lonely/angry/confused/crazy would also make a big difference.
1
@Chris Mobley, your comment reminded me that we also, somehow, need to reduce the violence in our society. Pope Francis calls it a "throw-away" culture. Violence is everywhere, especially on TV and big screen and in video games. We're drowning in it, glorifying it at every turn, reading about it, hearing about it on the news, on and on. We are almost blind to the affects.
1
There are many safety regulations that can make things better, we need to have the courage to follow through on the changes that we know will make a difference like universal background checks, red flag laws that will take guns away from mentally unstable people like the shooters in Thousand Oaks and Parkland, banning of assault weapons that no one needs to own. It is very clear that gun control works. Can we do better...yes we really can. There have been 12,000 gun related deaths this year. It does have to stop.
3
It works quite well in Canada and UK
1
This has to stop and will stop when we put our best efforts in the rules.
2
@Joseph John Amato, and STOP glorifying violence.
2
First step is for a bunch of politicians to band together and stop taking the the NRA's money. Have the courage to put your money where your "thoughts and prayers" are. That political money is the heart of the NRA's power. The NRA is far more about making money through gun sales than it is about a citizen's right. Not one bit of progress will happen until the NRA influence is diminished. Second, somebody please go after the twisted interpretation of the 2nd amendment that the NRA brought us. Third, will you politicians please make it OK for the government to research gun violence, just like it does with health issues, opiod addiction, auto crashes, plane crashes, etc., etc. The NRA stopped the effort even to do research on this. That's preposterous. Fourth do "evidence-based" constraints on gun purchases. Don't do stuff that doesn't work. I distrust the "common sense" in "common sense gun reform." Prove it first. I'm a rural gun owner. Don't blame us. Blame the NRA political/lobbying arm and the politicians who gladly take their money and then kowtow to them.
3
There are a lot of subtle but meaningful behavioral changes that Americans adopt in response to our high rate of gun violence. You don’t notice it until you leave the country for a few days and detect, at first indirectly, the lower threat. You don’t fear a deadly response to a traffic mishap. You don’t fear a mugging with a gun. You walk freely at night. Back home, the guard goes back up. For a long time, rap concerts have been high-security events due to gun violence. Your son attends a rap concert and you have to worry about him getting shot? We do. Now, country music fans will worry if the next concert or nightclub event will attract another copycat murderous, gun-toting nut. This is “freedom”? What stupidity. Do we withdraw from public events, buy more locks and steel doors, avoid late night walks, and even arm ourselves with more guns, and call this freedom? It’s Orwellian, and we’ve normalized it.
7
This is why we need to adhere to the second amendment. Where is our “well regulated militia...”!?!?
With little or no regulation we are suffering what needs to be referred to as acts terrorism.
Law enforcement needs the ability to deal with suicide gunners like they deal with suicide bombers — proactively. Because bombs are only used to kill people and guns are used by enthusiasts for recreation, hunting and self-protection we fail to see the connection between a suicide bomber and a suicide gunner. They are the same — acts of terrorists.
1
The only thing that will make Mr. Trump act in a serious, quick manner, is a bullet whizzing through his ten year old son, Barron.
1
Hmm. I don’t think Trump spends all that much time and energy on the kid.
3
@BBB You may be correct. I have noticed there is no interaction between Barron and Trump, but we should give Trump the benefit of the doubt.
For the sake of appearances, Trump might find it necessary to pretend he's devastated and fight hard for better gun control.
2
My first comment after reading NY Times and Globe and Mail for many years. I'm 45 and now summarize America as a violent place. Gun violence, meanness accepted in your media & politics. I'm tired of watching violent American shows and movies...perhaps I'll just read more : ) I realize more and more that Canada is not that similar to the US. We're your friendly neighbours but that and speaking English might be the most that we share.
2
@Dreena, my husband and I have made a conscious choice to turn off the TV more and read good books, play games, do handcrafts, listen to music, etc. What a relief it is to not be constantly subjected to the violence and noise of violence. A blessing.
1
Another trump lie. He'll do whatever the nra tells him to do.
2
The boys mother said it all....
"No more Guns...."
Flitting about the edges of the debate is silly. Start from there. Start with people who have experiences like her.
3
Yes, twice, and in the face of it the NY Times has remained silent on the violence that emanates from Hollywood, in video games, and near silent on the cost of war on the brave men and women forced to fight.
Instead, every tragedy begets a taking, be it the right to bear arms or the right of free speech.
Freedom and liberty come from God, and the antidote to bad speech is more speech.
1
To survive two gun massacres, and still be helpless to prevent a third attempt on your life...
Let the gravity of that horror sink in...
5
These mass gun shootings and killing sprees always happen in other places to people you don't know until it doesn't.
Can happen anywhere. Happened in my hometown, 8 years ago. 9 people died. Bet nobody remembers that one.
1
The law we needed was present; not enforced - again.
What does @NYT propose Nancy and The Don do? Ban handguns?
Really, it strains credulity how that would solve anything. Today a stabbing in Australia.
People are crazy. Why? Can we investigate? Do something about that?
Trump is not simply erratic. He is a pathological liar who shamelessly says anything and everything to manipulate his audience at the moment. The NRA is all-powerful in the Republican Party and with Trump. Every massacre increases the sale of fire-arms. America has a major problem when business profits demand human sacrifices in massive numbers on a regular basis. This is not a modern civilized society. The Aztecs and Maya sacrificed human victims on the altars of their gods to preserve the cosmic order. Americans sacrifice on the altar of profit. Shame on the greed of American politicians and of the all-powerful NRA which blocks any reasonable controls. What will it take, a mass shooting daily, or of politicians? Or not even then?
2
Regarding gun massacres:
The problem is—I know you’re trying to give him the benefit of the doubt—
The problem is that you’re treating Donald Trump as a rational human being, which he is not.
1
Sorry to say, but I have grown so tired of editorials like this. When will the coastal chattering classes learn that this isn't a partisan gun control issue. Can we please start listening to people like Malcolm Gladwell and others who are finally looking at the root causes of this national disease rather than continuing down the road of ignorant tropes like... blah blah blah NRA, assault weapons, background checks political inaction blah blah blah. This editorial's headline is literally eye-rolling. As if "Americans who have lived through two gun massacres" has any bearing on any legitimate national argument. Oh, latest assailant used a handgun? It was in a state with the strictest gun laws in the nation? The extended clip was illegal? Can't very well pull out the usual arguments this time, can you? The national disease of violence will not be solved with gun policy.
The massacres are not going to stop and you know it. Every massacre we have,dozens per year, brings these calls for reform. Nothing ever happen and it never will. Everyone should just admit it. Our flags should be set permanently at half staff. The gun lobby,organizations,and America's millions of gun advocates control the power and will never give it up. We will always have people that will go somewhere and kill 1,2, or 50 people. Always in America.
2
"Gun rights advocates" truly believe that their gun ownership hobby should supersede the rights of people to live. Their materialism is more important that human life. "Gun rights advocates" are terrible human beings.
3
I see what you are doing . . . appealing to his enormous ego, sense of grandiosity and the "no one was able to do this before" schtick.
Fine - whatever works. Democrats are ready & willing, the public is ready and we just need to do SOMETHING to stop the carnage! Americans no longer have to play a game of "6 degrees of separation" to have a connection to gun violence & mass shootings. They are becoming so frequent that it is one or two degrees separation, or they themselves are a victim.
#ENOUGH
3
Can you just stop doing this? Stop taking the President at face value over a single statement, in his case “a beautiful bipartisan-type situation.”?
Why does so much of the media give in and report these statements, and analyze them, and hypothesize as if he was a normal President, where what he says one day can be counted on for at least one more? Why doesn't the NYT just report: "The President went through his usual act and said things totally inconsistent with his lifetime behavior and we will give it no credence until his administration takes concrete steps to act and propose actual changes to the law; until then we will just regard it was the usual ramblings of a man who has proven time and time again that he cannot be relied on to tell the truth about even his own feelings and outlook on political issues"?
But no, you write an Editorial Board piece based on the fiction that the President has even a shred of respect for Nancy Pelosi, and even a shred of interest in sensible gun laws. He doesn't, on either count, and everything we know about him screams it loud and clear.
4
A world class liar and Master Charletan says he want tougher gun laws. Right. Got that.
Nancy Pelosi goes all giddy about bipartisanship re background checks and raising purchasing ages to 21. These things have never stopped killers in the past. Typical dumb 'make nice' Democratic response.
Old Dems are never going to move out of the civil and diplomatic era of he 20th century. No one in the Republican Party plays by the rules anymore Nancy. These guys play for keeps, they don't take prisoners, and they have no morals. If you don't know that by now, and can't maintain a certain wariness before jumping into alliances with dragons, you will only add to the disparaging milquetoast image that so many of us have of our Democratic reps.
God help us if Dems are the only Party we have to lead us out of this national nightmare.
2
I used to like taking my kids to the Cheesecake Factory in Thousand Oaks from where you could almost see this bar. We're not "safe" anywhere and Americans are afraid of brown-skinned terrorists?
4
As long as a large number of republicans continue to hold public office these massacres will not stop. Wake up, America (for like the millionith time).
2
Trump says he wants tougher gun laws???
Yeah, right.
The NRA is frantically on its way to the WH to set this President straight, AGAIN.
Watch for a corrected statement to be issued in the am... Trump meant to say he wants laws that allow the people with guns to be tougher on mass shooters.
1
Since all 301 massacres this year were committed by men, how about a 2nd Amendment compromise that gives only women the right to bear arms?
Apparently, only women will handle this problem.
3
...and some who did not.
1
Something I think is not mentioned enough in the gun control debate is the lack of funding for research. As a consequence of the Dickey amendment, the CDC cannot provide funds, and earlier this year the NIH discontinued its funding program that specifically focused on firearm violence. State and private funding are basically negligible. In such a polarized political climate how do we expect to make real changes if we can't even understand the root of problem? Both sides of the aisle can speculate about the cause of these tragedies all they want, and we will continue to change next to nothing.
2
perhaps the NRA is right: by themselves, guns do not shoot people.
but here is America's deadly cocktail - we are awash in guns, and many people passionately believe this is as it should be. Americans congregate in groups in locations as diverse as schools, nightclubs, movie theaters, chambers of government, transportation facilities, and houses of worship. and we have countless insane people with easy access to guns nursing their personal grudges and concluding that shooting strangers is their only course of action. thanks to St. Ronnie, we barely have any mental hospitals left to keep the dangerous and potentially dangerous away from guns and other people.
what is the logical course of action?
tighten gun rules? that cow is already out of the barn.
avoid gathering in groups, stay home, and cower under the blankets?
screen and isolate at least some of the potentially dangerous, incubating their hate and plotting their revenge on the world at large?
it seems we always get around to this: it's a healthcare issue and we are too cheap to underwrite adequate healthcare, including mental healthcare, even when lives depend on it.
this is the nightmare world we have chosen for ourselves by venerating money above all, even above life itself..
2
Australia is often cited as a country whose adoption of gun regulation has been effective. Overnight there was a terrorist incident in the busiest shopping precinct in the country where a man used a vehicle laden with gas canisters to cause an explosion, then attacked pedestrians with a knife. Tragically one person was killed before police stopped the attack, in which the attacker later died. This was clearly a premeditated incident given the explosives in the car, and am sure there will investigation of the perpetrators mental health; however this shows how the damage was at least inhibited by the simple fact he could not easily obtain more destructive weapons. As someone who appears to have had a criminal record, he could not legally obtain the type of gun that would have led to more casualties, and even if he head they are restricted from any sort of automatic capacity. Demonstrates mental health does play a big role in mass casualty attacks, but at least controlling access to the tools required reduces damage. This has been a consistent element of Australian attacks. Terrorists have the same intent as all mass shooters, causing maximum damage, however the toll of these attacks has never been more than two people; due to the worst weapon obtainable being a knife, shotgun, or similar limited capacity firearm. How many people may still be alive if no more than 2-5 victims occurred in any attack? Horrible to break human lives down to numbers, but if the number was just one.
5
In order to solve the gun massacres, we all need to go back and re-read the Second Amendment. The topic is right there in the first four words: "A well regulated militia, …"
The NRA tells people to jump through all sorts of logical hoops to render those words meaningless, but this is an insult to our country and the people who wrote the US Constitution. The NRA tells us that the "founding fathers" were just kidding, they were wasting our time as well as pen and parchment, or that we can pick and choose what to believe.
4
The only way We The People will change this situation is when it happens close to home as opposed to Somewhere Else.
Perhaps the teachers who are now authorized to be armed at schools can moonlight in the evenings as armed security at movie theaters, dance halls, etc. On Sunday they can moonlight at churches and on Saturday at synagogues. The opportunities to earn extra cash are endless, so we need not pay them a decent wage to teach.
2
Prohibition failed with alcohol. It is failing with drugs. Would it magically work with guns?
@M Alcohol and drugs kill people at their own hands. Guns kill people at the hands of others. Yes, it would work if we put hard core incarceration around anyone owning a gun who didn't have State protection training. Yes, it would work. But it won't with our current mind set.
1
@M -- alcohol and drugs mostly hurt the people who use them. Guns are different.
By your argument nobody would regulate anything, and yet regulation clearly works for a great many things.
Take explosives -- what do you think the USA would be like if explosives were not well regulated?
2
Gun ownership is only for the protection of State. Not one of these people own a gun to protect State. Not one of these people own a gun in a way that the Second Amendment is talking about. It is all illegal gun ownership. Anyone owning a gun should have to attend workshops that keep them prepared to defend the State. Training camps. No training, no gun. We do it with driving...why not guns. NRA needs to step down out of politics.
3
November 9, 2018
We surely will need to study the statistical probabilities to seek out the correlation and lessons to infer as indeed part of the top investigatory knowledge that will provide insights and remedies to our mass population - loaded with arenas of higher risks to this case and point.
jja
1
Doesn't California have some of the strictest gun control laws in the country? Apparently laws don't stop committed law breakers. Just sayin'.
1
@Southern Man -- go look at the numbers; CA has about half the gun death rate that GA does ... just sayin'.
1
I think the new Congress should make it mandatory for companies to have a 'Days without shooting' board visible to employees just like have one for 'Days with accident' etc.
The rise in mass shootings goes hand in hand with the decline of America.
We are asked to be shocked by each new mass shooting. Why should we be shocked? Mass shootings are reality in America.
What should shock us is how few Americans care.
Oh, isn't it sad, they say. Thoughts and prayers they say. Then they put it out of their minds.
What kind of people turn a blind eye to the mass murder of school children?
We do.
What kind of democratic government refuses to address it?
Ours does.
*That* is what should be shocking.
That it isn't, that we continue to accept it and move on, is just one more signpost along the downward path that this country has been on for far too long.
For that, we only have ourselves to blame.
But we won't.
3
I won't hold my breath waiting for the president to do anything sensible. This was the guy who less than two weeks ago said posting armed guards at houses of worship was the answer.
2
The security guard was shot first. Think about that for a second. The answer isn't more armed security guards. It never was. It never will be.
8
When it becomes epidemic, people will stop going out which will be detrimental to business. I wonder how many people already avoid large gatherings because of the gun deaths? I know of at least 10 in my circle.
6
@RCJCHC
I'm not against gun laws; my comment here is not about gun laws. However, those 10 people in your circle are absolutely terrible judges of relative risk. As horrendous as mass shootings are, the chances of being caught up with one in a country are statistically negligible compared to other risks. Do any of those 10 people happen to smoke, for example?
@RCJCHC, People already do. Personally I dislike being in thickly crowded environments without easy access to exits. Riding public transport in cities is also worrisome.
Kids today are always thinking about it. Where to hide, run, etc. They point out how vulnerable they feel in public places. Mentally, the absolute worst area for myself is at airport terminals, waiting in TSA lines especially.
1
Will anything really be done ? more funerals perhaps?
2
Tell it to the Republicans and NRA supporters.
1
We should ask the Chinese how they keep their billion of people from killing each other. I think they do it by censoring and controlling the media. If this is true then it logically follows that our so-called "free" press is the cause, inciting factor, of the majority of America's frequent mass murders. Just about every, certainly the most recent, mass murders have occurred in an environment of extreme media agitation and conflict. Our hyperventilating, hysterical, click baiting media practices are the ones who are responsible for America's mass murders. Look at the timing and who benefits. The liberal left and their agenda, supported by their compliant "freedom loving" media facilitators.
"Mr. Trump is the ideal president"
I never thought I'd see those words in the NY Times.
Trump only sounds like he's in support of better gun controls. He says this as yet another palliative to the left, to keep us quiet for another few minutes. But we aren't THAT dumb, Mr. President.
Let me finish your sentence more correctly...
Mr. Trump is the ideal president ... TO RESIGN.
4
Let's see the NRA funded DJT's presidential campaign to the tune of $21M. Anyone see him walking away from that?
2
Liberals are always crowing that Prohibition has not worked for drugs. It certainly didn’t work with alcohol. But somehow it’s supposed to work with guns?
1
One of the President’s best known quotes begins, “I could shoot someone...”
2
One mystery to me in the two attacks described here is why the attackers chose country music venues. That is hardly what we think of as lefty-liberal Antifa music. The CM fans I know are mostly Trump supporters, white Christians who believe in God, the flag, guns, and pick-ups. They like beer and blondes and music with a story and a beat.
I am fine with that, except the part about unlimited guns. There are many people who should never have access to guns, and not all of them are Mexican or black gang members. The Preamble of our Constitution does state its objective to "insure domestic Tranquility".
1
The editorial board believes anything Trump says? Really? Really??
2
My supermarket covers Cosmopolitan magazine covers that sit next to 6 or 7 obscene gun magazines. The gun porn should be covered also.
6
Investigate the NRA for laundering Russian money during the last election. Keep them busy with that while the rest of us are being protected by sane gun laws.
Claiming that California’s strict gun laws “didn’t do any good” is an exceptionally stupid remark.
California is literally another country compared to other states, thank god.
Strict gun laws is one of the many progressive achievements that make this state a much better place to live than in states east of here.
In California we also have laws about tweeting while driving and stopping at red lights. When the inevitable careless accident occurs only a stupid person would conclude the laws don’t work.
5
This is a heartfelt, valid question for the Editorial Board, in an attempt to bypass the frequently overzealous comment moderators: When will we be allowed to call this what it IS-
White Male Domestic Terrorism ? Lifelong Democrat here, but educated AND brimming with common sense. Is it political correctness, or a desire not to offend a certain demographic, and be mocked ? Toughen UP. Personally, I’m much more worried about being gunned down by “ a crazy guy with a gun “ than ISIS or caravans. Let’s get real, and identify the actual problem, and work towards solutions. DEAL ???
3
Trump is lying. Why is this news?
Dan Kravitz
4
the NRA and the GOP have blood on their hands and should be held accountable
1
Hey, amoral NRA people, please explain why the "good guy with a gun" thing didn't work this time.
Maybe you can also explain why some unarmed yoga class participants were able to stop an armed assailant.
I'll take your answer now, not three days from now while you frantically try to come up with excuses.
3
Trump is a corrupt cowardly liar.
Trump imagined that if he had been at Parkland he would have rushed in and taken down the shooter. With what? A tweet? An angry spoken slur?
While Trump was watching the migrant caravan with Faux News he should have been watching PTSD American military veterans. They disproportionately commit suicide.
After the Supreme Court the U.S. Senate is the least democratic branch of our divided limited power constitutional republic. The Senate contrary to the JFK book is a profile in corrupt crony capitalist corporate plutocrat oligarch welfare cowardice.
3
I have a question for Donald Trump: Why are you so busy talking about how Americans should be afraid of caravans of immigrants and not warning us about unhinged white guys with easy access to guns?
4
Add to the list, 2 people killed by a gunman last week at a Florida yoga studio.
2
Give us a break. Trump, "sincere" about anything? Never gonna happen. He says whatever his current audience wants to hear, then changes his mind as soon as Stephrn Miller puts him back in touch with his inner racist bully, and/or someone to whom he owes s lot of money yanks the choke-chain. Really, Times, if you expect any sort of "inner statesman" to emerge, I've got a pumpkin patch for you where you can wait for the Great Pumpkin.
2
You really don't believe him, do you? He's a genius at flip flopping and don't forget the greatest liar in history.
2
The Sandy Hook Elementary massacre of 20 six to seven years olds, proved Americans are impotent, incapable, lazy and downright mad to defend 'the right to bear arms'.
The USAs excessively enable & amorally supports the unbridled profiteering arms race inside & outside their country.
Death equals $$...violence breeds violence. Do something about the disease of violence.
3
If anyone, at this point, thinks an Op-ed in the New York Times is going to change anything, we are delusional.
1
It's insane that you still print absolute nonsense like "Mr. Trump expressed enthusiasm for working in 'a beautiful bipartisan-type situation.'"
Why even bother? How have you still not learned how to cover this guy?
2
Oh please. Wait until the next NRA conference
Trump says whatever he needs to get through the next 8 hours. Miller, Jared, someone with even less altruism will get to him, and this two will be in the rear view mirror.
2
As you know trump is a liar. So we’ll see.
1
Oh, look: Another NYTimes editorial pretending to believe that Trump could do the right thing. Will you ever tire of this pointless exercise?
2
Expecting anything decent out of this president is a fool's errand.
3
A stronger background check is simply a Potemkin Village - it gives the appearance of meaningful action while doing and achieving nothing.
Australia has shown us the way: ban ALL semiautomatic firearms and institute a national buy-back program. That is the first step to a safer America.
The second step, and the one requiring the least effort and the most courage, is to repeal the 2nd Amendment and replace it with one that gives Congress (the People’s House) the sole power to regulate the ownership, possession, and use of firearms.
2
@NorthernVirginia -- strictly speaking Australia does not ban all semi-auto weapons -- but they are pretty hard to get.
1
You can't stop it. It's individual men snapping, using legal and illegal weapons. It's checkmate. You can never take all the guns, you cannot prevent men snapping. This country was made by the gun it will die by the gun. This is reality. Anything else is a pipe dream.
Ninety seven percent of all violent crime is committed by men. Is murder committed one at a time any less abhorrent or agonizing? No. How about 1 in 6 (old stat) women being raped in their lifetimes? Or women and children beaten, kidnapped, held as sex slaves worldwide DAILY? No. It's disgusting beyond words.
Yet somehow "this needs to stop." But the rest can continue?
2
Sandy Hook should have changed everything about gun rights and "gun lovers", and it didn't.
Now, we just brace for the next mass shooting. "Thoughts and prayers" really means, "guns and bullets".
1
@Stephen
Many of the people so in favor of gun rights realized Sandy Hook was unacceptable, so in their mind they convinced themselves it didn't happen. It's amazing how many times something awful like this occurs and they immediately yell "false flag". There are some who are convinced the shooting in Vegas didn't happen in spite of video and literally thousands of witnesses. That would be a lot of trouble to keep going through-creating new "false flags"-knowing nothing ever changes.
Every American soldier sent to some foreign boondoggle of a conflict to supossidly further freedom eventually sees American policy for what it is; American Imperialism driven by financial greed. These soldiers see the destruction they create and the families they destroy and they in turn are destroyed emotionally, mentally, and physically. They then bring that home where they drown in the hypocrisy of a nation that in reality cares little about anything but money. The NRA contributes further to American internal destruction by buying politicians of every stripe. Follow the money and break your chains America. You are running out of time and no one else can save you but yourselves.
5
@Tony Francis
You are guessing. The problem of violent and anti-social behaviors by men returning from war is normal. In traditional societies, such men are segregated for about a month so that they can recover their socially adapted selves. We don't treat emotional readjustment a routine procedure for returning soldiers.
"For his part, Mr. Trump has been erratic on the subject of gun safety. "
Pretty simple. He seems to think gun control is ok. Until the NRA gets him in a room alone and works him over. Then he thinks it is not ok.
1
No one has the fortitude. America, home of the fearful. Ahhh, but we can send the army south to fend off the tropical vikings of the 21st century, Beer and football anyone?
1
Guns are the common denominator in these senseless tragedies, no doubt about it. But so is mental health. Why isn't anyone talking about mental illness as a catalyst of these shootings? (I am talking to you NY Times Editorial). Assume for a minute that all of the proposed gun control legislation has a been passed and implemented, this tragedy would still have occurred. We need to implement stricter guns standards AND have access to quality mental health services (especially for our veterans). Sane people do not commit mass murders, mentally ill people do. If we continue to talk in circles, we will continue to have these tragedies....and that is insane.
Same old, same old.....unfortunately, NOTHING WILL CHANGE!
2
The Republicans are owned by the NRA and will do nothing. A major shooting almost every day and no action with single party rule tells us who runs the place.
Trump doesn't care about the shootings. He wants to be seen as being more powerful than other politicians and capable of taking action where others could not. When it came time to fight the NRA the big superhero folded. Perhaps his bone spurs were inflamed and causing him discomfort.
What about the gun massacres in Syria and Afghanistan? Don't they count?
@farleysmoot - Silly comparison. Yes, in Syria and Afghanistan it matters - a war zone and to the Syrians and Afghanistanis...
We're not a war zone (at least not yet). We're supposed to be a peaceful society whereby citizens can expect to be safe and not randomly attacked by some jerk with a gun.
Big difference. one that even you can grasp.
1
Whenever I hear the words “guns” and “Trump” I think of that listening session in the WH with Parkland students. The one where the President is grasping a piece of paper on which Hope Hicks scribbled the words “I hear you”.
When you have not one empathetic bone in your body, you need notes like this.
1
Donald Trump says he wants tougher gun laws?
Is that supposed to be some kind of joke?
The only thing Trump wants is a bigger check from the NRA.
Preferably one large enough to wipe away his crocodile tears.
A terrorist just went on a rampage in Melbourne Australia. - with a knife.
One dead, a few wounded. Terrible, but the absence of a gun most telling. What is wrong with us.
1
Correction: WE have to stop this.
Following the terrible tragedy in Pittsburg, the President declared flags be flown at half staff.
The White House has again issued a declaration that flags be flown at half staff for the victims of the Thousand Oaks shooting.
Do you think if we begin to see our flags flying at half mast every day...we'll begin to see the reality of gun violence in this country?
Or do you think we'll just accept it...like we do our children being shot in their own schools?
1
When pigs fly
The day of the Philadelphia synagogue massacre, President Trump was so concerned about the tragedy that he found it necessary to tweet criticism of a baseball manager's decision to pull a pitcher. Within 24 hours following the Thousand Oaks shooting his administration focused its energy on creating a false story about an "abusive" reporter who had the temerity to hold a microphone while insisting on asking the President of the United States a legitimate question. Draw your own conclusions about this administrations concern about gun violence and hate.
1
Trump will make another appearance reading from notes that say "I hear you." Trump will blame Democrats. Trump will do nothing. More Americans will be massacred as Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan and Donald Trump look on and do nothing.
This massacre occurred in Democratic California with a Democratic Governor Brown and 2 houses of the legislature firmly in Democratic control.
Gun control laws and ENFORCEMENT are still not strict enough even in Democratic California.
The shooter was a candidate for institutional confinement and YET HE WAS ALLOWED TO HAVE A GUN.
Shame on Brown and the Democratic politicians in California who still are not
protecting us against gun violence!!!!!
1
‘‘...In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the word ‘marriage’ means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife, and the word ‘spouse’ refers only to a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife...
.....
With a bit of tersing up, the essence of the Defense of Marriage Act would have fit into a tweet...
Why should a ban on AR-15s – or anything with equivalent muzzle velocity or magazine capacity or firing rate – take any more verbiage...
Yes, I know a Glock was used at Thousand Oaks...
Am perfectly fine with omitting any muzzle velocity threshold – and banning more broadly, based on just magazine capacity and firing rate...
PS
The police don’t use the same radios they were using sixty years ago – why are they using the same weaponry...
(incidentally – if anyone sees this as an urban/rural thing – rural farmers aren’t using the same tractors they were using sixty years ago, either)
If the purpose is to drop somebody – vs execute them, in the heat of confrontation – far more effective means could be found...
For clarity, if additional firepower is needed – then go ahead and bring in a SWAT team lite...
"Trump Said He Wants Tougher Gun Laws."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bullsheet. trump lies.... again. He's all about social unrest.
He's bought and paid for by those who won't have to face the consequences.
2
Trump demonizes the caravan as being full of dangerous immigrants, but the real terror and threat who were the shooters in these recent massacres are often white Trump supporters.
Can you imagine the outcry from Trump and Faux News if one of the killers in these recent massacres had been an illegal immigrant instead?
Tougher gun laws? Yeah, right. There is no hope for America. The only real answer is to reduce, dramatically, the number of guns in our country. The NRA tells us it’s not about guns, it’s about crazy people. They are liars. They know it is about guns, and they don’t care. There are too many guns in this country, and anyone who says different is also a liar. That is not fake news.
1
As long there is legal bribery in congress, this will not end.
The NRA, our very own terrorist organization, owns a majority of congresspersons and knows how much each person will take.
Show the crime scene photos.
Let the slaughtered speak for themselves.
Attach the blame to every politician, manufacturer and retailer.
1
@Mike B
I truly believe if they had released the photos of Sandy Hook or Parkland showing those children's bodies mutilated beyond recognition there might be a bigger outcry to do something.
1
90% of Americans, including 74% of NRA members, favor background checks on ALL gun sales.
Almost one year after the Las Vegas mass shooting and Congress still has not banned "bump stocks".
Congress is not doing the will of We The People.
They cowtow to big $$$ special interests.
1
@Question Everything - background checks are a start...but MOST of these killings are by law abiding citizens without criminal records. Until u limit access...the murder will continue.
Can we please come up with a new standard for recognizing mass shootings? Flags are at half-staff 150 days of each year. Talk about normalization of behaviors.
1
I’m all in favor of more sensible gun control, but high capacity magazines and automatic weapons have been widely available for a century and these types of mass killings didn’t become commonplace until relatively recently.
Clearly, the accessibility of guns is only part of the problem.
I don’t know that there is one way to solve the proliferation of mass shootings...but I think that a combination of strict and effectively selective background checks which uncover “red flags”, bans on assault type rifles and stock gadgets which transform regular guns into assault weapons, and more responsible gun ownership and handling would be a start.
America is a “frontier” country, with a frontier mentality and gun ownership and use has been a way of life for centuries. That is at the root of gun proliferation and equation with individual freedom. European countries do not have such a mentality and love affair with guns.
That said I think that unaddressed mental health issues together with the ubiquitous access to guns are a huge factor in the proliferation of massacres. We have a broken mental health system and lots of folks walking around with no means or facilities to address their emotional problems, but they have GUNS! That, in my opinion, is a deadly combination.
I recall there was a woman who was involved in another gun massacre who happened to be also at the concert in LV.
These sort of incidents are no longer random. They're becoming repetitive.
Soon we will be asking one another if they or someone they know was involved with a gun spree. It will be that commonplace.
Happened in my New England hometown 8 years ago, a work place attack and the killing of eight people. Does anyone remember it? Nope. But I still do.
3
I am a gun owner and I completely agree with you. There has to be a mechanism or law to disclose people with mental health issues that should not have access to weapons. Federal background checks that exclude felons and people convicted of domestic violence offenses should also flag people with mental health issues. Mandatory reporting by mental health providers should be put in place. Such a designation could be made without violating any privacy rights. There should also be laws that allow law enforcement agencies to remove weapons from such individuals without requiring an arrest. I am a member of a Sportsman's Club that constantly encourages me to Join the NRA, but i refuse to do so until they take a responsible position on gun control. There is no need for people to own AR-15s or high capacity magazines in order to protect themselves or hunt.
2
After the massacre at the synagogue in Pittsburgh, Trump said that if only the synagogue had had "some kind of protection inside the temple, maybe it could have been a much different situation." The bar in California had that protection, a security guard; he was the gunman's first victim.
The answer to a bad man with a gun is NOT a good man with a gun.
3
Who is responsible for the current state of affairs?
Easy: The voting public.
The current situation would be swiftly addressed if voters cared enough to make this issue the single most important factor when casting their votes.
The gun enthusiasts do this.
The abortion opponents do this.
Where are the people that care just a tiny bit about gun control and want to pass reasonable measures to stop people with legal issues or mental issues of any sort from getting guns?
I can't think of any mass murderer who wasn't previously known, or should have been known, from hateful social media postings or mental issues of other kind.
If you talk gun-control with a person with strong pro-gun views (at least in my area) you will realize why change will never happen. Many pro-gun people accept and acknowledge that massacres are the price of having the gun rights they want and they are okay with it (at least when they are honest about it). They fear the "government" (that is the govt of the USA) will come into their homes and take their guns and they want to be ready to fight--to fight our government! These are Trump people, they love him! I have no hope of change.
2
My daughter believes that the gun insanity is due to every Fox-watching voter over the age of 65. Her hope is that these people will die out and be replaced by voters in her generation who have spent their high schools years practicing hiding in closets and running out of fire alarm exits and are disgusted by the gun culture. I hope she is right.
3
Gun violence coming to a location near you! We can all be the next ones.
But this is why Trump and the republicans will never do anything about it. Terror is known to make people more conservative, so they will vote for the devil they know. Turkey and Russia are examples of this.
So strangely, the fear of gun violence is one more reason that republicans will run this country for decades to come.
2
At least I haven’t been shot at so far this week so I guess I’m way ahead of the game .
I think it is to late for public scorn to work on the hardliners. The insecurity which drives their gun ownership is deeply in grained in their psyche. I fear any attempt to rectify the situation will drive them deeper into their psychological bubble of fellow gun nuts, resulting in more mass violence.
How did we get here? How do we get out?
I am the numb American. I have already forgotten what before would have held our country's attention for weeks. I'm exhausted and despondent. I support the 2nd amendment, own guns and don't know what is to be done. I am holding on until Trump is out of office. That is all I feel I can do.
A good end run around the obstacles of NRA’s warped interpretation of the Second Amendment would be to enact tight controls on the sale of anmunation, including per person limits on quantity, banning sale of the high velocity products except to law enforcement and the military, require the development and availability of smart control weapons that would improve safety in use for law enforcement personnel, and even allow prison guards to be able to be issued these, and to render useless stolen weapons. Without bullets, mayhem can be limited.
I agree with your hopes that Trump can change, but the powerful oligarchs that own him and the GOP Senate will not allow this to happen, sadly.
1
We may as well accept that there is no solution to this problem in a country that equates gun ownership with freedom and values freedom more than life. "Give me liberty or give me death." We have liberty and we have the deaths of innocents.
74
@abigail49
Also a reminder that in our society gun money matters much more than lives.
10
@abigail49
With a leadership like today's republicans, you'd think the logic and reasoning behind the second amendment would become clear.
Oh sure, it's impolite to mention that humans are selfish and only violence really ends disputes over governance when politics breaks down. But it's true.
Face facts.
5
@abigail49 "Give me liberty or give me death"
No need to choose just one. In America, you can have both. What a country!
6
Every single thing he says is absolutely meaningless.
7
For trust not him who has once broken faith - Shakespeare. Donald Trump is a very slender reed to hang your hopes on.
6
Cut funding to the NRA, block them from lobbying and buying politicians with huge campaign contributions... That’s what this will really take.
3
Conservatives keep saying the gun laws won’t do anything.
Then do something. Anything. Pass a law for mental health. Let’s see if it works. If it does, great! If it doesn’t let’s reassess and update the law.
As of now absolutely nothing is being done while we are being slaughtered.
6
There is no way of stopping these shooters before they start shooting because there is no way of knowing who they are before they start. Pointing your finger and blaming someone else will not do it. If you don't carry a gun and don't want anyone to carry a gun I don't see how these murders can stop. We don't know who is going to break the law and a law has never stopped anybody from breaking it. Only in a perfect world can there be no guns and nothing and nobody is perfect. We can either carry a gun or hope somebody else has one or continue to let these murders happen.
1
see you at the OK Corral.
Our leaders are sending thousands of troops to our southern border, they are banning citizens of certain countries from entering, they have convinced so many of us that immigrants are criminals and yet, who is responsible for the majority of the mass shootings, not immigrants, not foreigners, not Mexicans, not Muslims. Our fellow Americans, and why isn't some type of BAN on something, anything being implemented in this reality?
6
I am NOT a member of the NRA. And I Also VOTE.
2
I AM a member of the NRA. And I also VOTE.
What did we expect when we handed out all these guns ? Armed utopia! Please . This well armed country will suffer the consequences of angry , unhinged well armed nitwits for decades . Police cannot perform their duties properly without constant stressful fear ! Leaving your home or driving our roads has developed a certain level danger . SHAME. on us ....accepting this never ending carnage .
6
Compare the statistical probability that you or your friends or family will be shot at a concert, school, movie theater, church or at work to the likelihood of harm from the fabled caravan. Americans need 15,000 well armed soldiers at the border “protecting us”when sadly you are more likely to be shot dead at church or a festival. America in a nutshell.
5
is the NYT that naive to hope that Mr. Trump supports any measure that his core base would oppose?
where have they been the last 2 years?
2
After the Parkside and Columbine horrors, this country has apparently signed off on the wholesale slaughter of our children. And everyone else. A nation that has as one of its religions the Second Amendment and with it the worship of guns and their killing capabilities is a nation that is doomed to perish by drowning in its own shed blood.
6
..what a travesty - gun ‘laws’.
Americans are moronic if they think tougher gun laws will prevent mass shootings. Our Congress can’t even agee on whether assault rifles should be banned. Let’s not forget, even John McCain, who everyone was glorifying when he passed away, voted AGAINST banning assault rifles.
US citizens have around 350 million guns - you can get guns in most countries around the world as easily as you can get them here....and I’m not even referring to the largest black market for handguns in the world.
Since the Revolutionary War Americans have wanted guns under their pillows- and the NRA made sure we could.
It’s TOO LATE - any legislation is merely window dressing. Get used to it - guns will always be too accessible to those who have no business owning firearms.
More killings, murders and mass shootings - it’s going to get worse...and I don’t think it will ever get better.
Congress won’t even ban silencers - why do you think that is?
1
Way to go, opinion writers. Flatter the Don all you can: it is the only context in which I would encourage it. Flatter on a daily basis, please.
1
Just now you realize this?
The daughter of lifelong friends was at Las Vegas with friends, celebrating an engagement of one - that one was killed.
The daughter was also a student at UCSB when a couple were killed on her sorority's front lawn.
1
Wait, wait, after tens of thousands of lies that he has told since launching his campaign in 2015, and many before, NOW Trump’s hometown newspaper is taking him at his word?
Please regain contact with reality. No president has ever better represented Mary McCarthy’s scathing assessment of Lillian Hellman:
“Every word is a lie, including ‘and’ and ‘the.’”
1
I'll believe Trump wants gun control when he signs the Executive Order.
2
Once again, the Times’ editorial board takes Trump at face value and constructs an opinion piece based on the superficial utterance of a destructive, violence-promoting racist.
Trump has no interest in enacting gun safety legislation anymore than the Republicans do. Why do powerful journalists grab onto any semi-sane statement by the president as a sign of hope when it’s just another lie?
Trump is a hater, and will always be a hater, fueled by the far-right and dark Republican money, and so the mass shootings in America will continue into 2019, 2020, 2021, and onward. We are a nation at war with ourselves. Trump is like napalm at a peace protest. He is the problem, which means he will never be part of the solution.
2
Maybe our flags should be left at half-staff, so people won't have to be running to-and-fro to the flag pole. Maybe leave the flag at half-staff for the sorry state of this country.
3
Blowhard Trump doesn’t have the guts to take on the NRA.
1
One thing the NYT could do to help would be to stop printing the names of the shooters.
America, home of the free. Free to slaughter, anywhere, anytime. Thanks, GOP/NRA Party.
2
Wake UP America!!!
Guns are NOT the problem.....
The media and liberals have you brainwashed if you think guns are the real problem.
Look at the facts:
40,000 motor vehicle-related deaths
39,000 people firearm-related deaths
64,000 people drug overdose-related deaths
You want a problem to fix...fix drug overdose deaths......Stop Doctors and big Pharma from killing all these people. But where is the media? The liberals?
Shame on you. Get your priorities right.
The only way you will get my gun.....is to pry it from my cold dead hands.....
Focus people...know your enemy....and it is not the people.
S.D.
1
Wishing and hoping and praying and blaming is futile. The horrifying reality is that there are no solutions. This will happen over and over again and laws and prayers will not stop it. Whatever warped thoughts provoke these men to perpetrate these massacres unfortunately, will not be totally stopped by gun control laws-even though there should be much stronger gun control laws. Mental health issues are the obvious causes of this problem but not obvious enough to be able to control. We are a vulnerable society looking for solutions to an uncontrollable situation...and sadly there are no laws that will keep us totally safe from a mentally disturbed individual who is hell bent on causing horrific destruction. At this point, I feel hopelessness just knowing that we are powerless to stop this from happening again and again.
8
@Barbara Ann
I understand your hopelessness and often share it.
I also know that the prevalence of most mental health conditions has not increased substantially in the past 30 years even while non-intimate gun violence has skyrocketed. Additionally, there is no research that supports the idea that Americans are more prone to violence related to their mental health than are Canadians, Brits, Mexicans, French, or Italians (or many others). What is clear is that we have a culture of acting out violently with guns in a way that is remarkable.
Your point is that addressing the gun issues with laws may be insufficient; you are likely correct. I do think it's necessary and could lead to a reduction though the lapse in the assault weapons ban has increased the availability of such weapons and I'm not sure to what extent the cows can be returned to the barn.
12
@Barbara Ann. Except that this doesn't happen in other countries to anything like the same extent! Of course the US has the resources to greatly reduce this horrendous phenomenon.
12
@Barbara Ann
So, your proposed solution is: don't bother trying to fix this horrifying state of affairs?
If more people shared your bleak outlook, the United States (most likely) wouldn't exist...
7
I don't believe that Trump wants tougher gun laws.
Nobody has sucked up to the NRA more than Donald Trump.
2
America’s obsessive love affair with guns has got to end. Faux News and other faux news outlets including the government itself need to be stopped. The NRA’s glamourization of Military style weapons to feed men’s masculinity and the NRA’s lies need to end.
America is very sick right now. There is no addressing American born terrorists by the government and you have an insane lunatic sitting in the White House who is destroying America and turning the government into a fascist autocracy.
It seems there is foreshadowing of civil unrest to the point of fighting in the streets as people are so angry and divided. I hope that day never comes but I fear it may.
With the crazy man in the White House, things will only get worse especially when the White House is publishing fake video footage of the Acosta microphone encounter.
Welcome to the USA. Welcome to HELL.
2
Advocating stricter gun laws is good but almost useless.
When mentally deranged individuals prone to these violent acts, are identified by law enforcement, nothing can be done due to concern about their civil rights.
Additionally, many of the same advocates of strict gun control laws, oppose criminal penalties and incarceration for those who violate the laws.
The result is a dangerous and dysfunctional system with contributions from both Republicans and Democrats.
1
@jck in California the police can get a court order to confiscate weapons from an individual deemed to be a threat to himself or others. California also has quite strict gun laws. But a trained, cold-blooded killer can still do lots damage with a semi-automatic handgun and multiple 10-round magazines, as we just saw. But an AR-15 with even bigger magazines could have been worse....or would allow a nervous, untrained killer to potentially be as lethal as an ex-Marine. I would advocate for all states or the federal gov't to at least match California's laws. That would put a big dent in overall lethality, start moving the law and the culture in a different direction, and perhaps in time more measures could be taken. Unfortunately, gun rights advocates perceive that "slippery slope" and hence they won't allow even the first step down that hill to be taken.
There was an Assault Weapons ban law in effect from 1994 to 2004. Foolishly the Congress let it expire.
There have been multiple shootings with assault weapons since then and quite a few of them--Las Vegas, Orlando and Sutherland Springs to name a few--could have been prevented had the law not expired.
There's blood in the hands off our "elected" representatives, especially those beholden to the NRA. To use one of Trump's favorite insults, he and the legislators are "babies" for being afraid of the NRA. Stop being babies!
2
@RK it wasn't foolish to let it expire.
It was a cosmetics ban on the same rifles people have been buying for a hundred years.
If you want to run as an anti-gun person and anti-2nd amendment person...then by all rights..that's your right.
But do it Constitutionally and work to push a Constitutional Amendment. You have to spend political capital if you want to change things in this country. You can't just wish the Supreme Court to rule on things like Abortion, Gay Marriage and the Legality of the Federal Government mandating that you buy a service. As you're about to find out though..that's exactly what will be happening with Trump's EO on Anchor Babies. We won'd pass a law against it. We'll let the Supreme Court decide it's Unconstitutional. Two can play this game;
I was in Vegas for a family reunion at the end of Sept. We kept seeing all these people walking around with turquoise tee shirts and even cowboy hats. We finally chatted to some and they were all survivors from that shooting last year and were there for a convention. Yes, a convention now in Las Vegas for massacre survivors.
My son is on disability after surviving a workplace massacre eleven years ago in St. Louis. You never think it will happen to you or someone you love. Until it does. Americans shoot over 100,000 other Americans every year, including babies, and kill over 30,000 of us. If another country tried that, we'd empty our entire nuclear arsenal on them.
And that's a problem, too.
136
@Entera We are a country that has become rich by selling weaponry. That will come home to roost as we are seeing. We need to change our core and we won't. We have corruption at the core that is greedy and loves money. It is where the root of all evil stems.
5
The gun legislation being considered is too limited to matter much. I support it, but it is really just working at the edges.
The First Amendment is limited by the doctrine of time, place, and manner. The Second should be equally limited. Want an AR-15? Go to a regulated gun club and shoot it all you want. But you may not remove it form that premises. The same for all guns. Want to hunt? Sign a gun out, hunt, and return it.
2
307 mass shootings in the last 312 days in America. Still all we do is talk and offer our worthless thoughts and prayers. At this point most people have sadly become numb to the senseless killing. Just another day in America.
Guns and the money they perpetuate are more important than human life. In a few days the masses will be bored with hearing that those who can do anything have no desire to truly address mass killing in this country beyond lip service. Whats the point, lets face it we are a violent people with a sick sense of priorities between right and wrong, life and death. A nation of hypocrites beholden to money hungry vultures.
2
@Rick Beck
No God. No Peace.
Know God..Know Peace.
Fact is some people spiral into a hell that they can't escape from. Rather than simply taking their own life, they feel like they need to have revenge on the world for helping put them in this hell.
Thus the problem with Progressive Orthodoxy that dissuades personal responsibility. Let "Julia" tell you what to do at each stage of your life because that's why you belong to Government.
Fact is there is heaven and their is hell. There is night and there is day. There is yin and their is yang. There is order and there is chaos.
it's up to each of us to take care of our own 'leaf on the tree' so that we don't wither, become infected with disease...and destroy the rest of the tree and the rest of the forest.
But if you're a big central government type...then you should set your expectations that this kind of stuff is going to continue to happen.
Remember...even Karl Marx believed the Collective was only as strong as it's weakest link. If you can't muster up the strength to insist that your government leaders get a spine in enforcing TVRO's...then you reap what you sow.
Why even use news print to say Trump wants tougher gun laws? Trump's impulse is to say want he thinks works at the moment. After he gets a call from his NRA handlers he will be singing a different tune. Why not cover why the invasion of Brown people at our Southern Border that took a timeout after Tuesday? Why not talk to the troops away from home for the holidays so Trump can play Tin Horn Dictator?
@Steven McCain NRA handlers? Seriously? I own several guns (locked in a biometric safe that not even my wife can get into..for practical purposes) and I don't belong to the NRA, I've not donated to the NRA, and in some cases I don't support the NRA.
But then again, I thought my proposal to require a 7 day waiting period for guns was a reasonable compromise with Progressives in exchange for a 7 day waiting period for abortions.
Silly me.
Trump says he wants tougher gun laws. Know how you can tell when Trump is lying? His lips are moving.
1
What good are State gun laws when your neighbors are Arizona, Nevada or, for us Chicagoans, Indiana?
This problem has to be solved at the federal level.
3
@Alley Panda Your problem in Chicago is the Aldermen are getting paid by the gangs to let things happen as they happen.
Your political leaders don't have the will to do what's necessary to reduce crime or to give people back their safety and security in their own neighborhoods.
I could clean up Chicago in a month without any problems...and I'd have the support of 90% of the residents on the South and West Sides.
You just have to stop making excuses for this behavior and get in and fix it.
What Trump wants is more conflict, and the level of insensitivity that he stoops to is infantile.
Silence, please, Mr. President.
@ubique
Mass murders increased under Obama. The NRA has been silent.
But you don't think the liberal media has anything to do with it, since they certainly haven't been silent.
@Aristotle Gluteus Maximus
I have no idea what the “liberal media” is, but I’ve seen some of the NRA’s agit-prop videos, and they are far from innocent.
@ubique
I didn't know what the liberal media was until I started paying attention. It's now quite obvious and definable.
You had to seek out those NRA agit prop videos, you don't see them everyday in the daily news. The liberal media is relentless with their anti-gun rhetoric, every day, all over the country, in unison, with the same message, whenever an incident happens.
What a dishonest column, which just shows that the gun control lobby will ignore facts to get what they want. California has the toughest gun control laws in the country, including universal background checks. But the shooter purchased his gun legally. What is the Editorial Board, and all the commenters here who are agreeing with it, proposing that would have stopped this shooting?
Your headline proclaims that trump was for tougher gun laws. Ahhhh.....our president says many things. In this case, as in many, many others, he has done nothing to support that. Nothing.
Frankly, he has not followed up on any details of what he thinks those laws might be. Be great if he comes around or better if he leads the charge, but I am not holding my breath.
War after War, after War brings mental illness and loss of reasoning such as Brando: "The Horror"
No, not yet - the NRAs sponsoring institutions havent made enough money. Gun policy in this country, like everything else, is based on money, money, money. Think tobacco.
Trump, sincere? Willing to work with Pelosi. on gun control? Please! Don’t believe it for. a minute.
Is this his distraction from the new rules about asylum seekers on the southern border? from his illegitimate appointment of the acting Attorney General? from his failure to ensure fair elections? from his knowing zilch about governance at home and abroad? and his allowing rampant corruption and lies to prevail daily? A bully, aka without a backbone, cannot disguise a deficit of truth and integrity.
Putting your faith in Trump to make an effort not intended to line his own pockets is like waiting for Godot...
Congress does what its big bucks bribers pay it to do.
3
You probably have all forgotten that Trump ends up contradicting everything he has ever said.
"Trump Said He Wants Tougher Gun Laws."
Trump became presidential when he said that. Next up: infrastructure! Such a great president! MAGA!
What is the cost benefit analysis of an American life? Divide the amount of money the NRA gives to politicians by the number of people killed per year. Then we know what we are worth to our "leaders".
As so many people know, if the mass murder of schoolchildren at Sandy Hook didn't cause Americans to insist on gun control, then it's not possible to imagine what would. Trump's response is consistent: 'they should have armed guards.' Nothing will move the republicans towards gun control, which is a bit odd when you think about it. Why would a fascist dictator want civilians to have guns?
Until people are so shocked that they voluntarily give up their right to have guns so that others have the right to live, this will not change. That may never happen, but that's what needs to.
How long can any given individual say "the right to own a gun is more important than X number of lives taken with the use of a gun"? What is that X for each person? For a gun control advocate, that number may be 0. For a gun rights advocate, that number may be a million, half the population of the country, all of the population of the country? Right now, the number of lives taken is obviously not enough for gun owners to voluntarily give up their guns.
I don't think gun control alone is the answer. I'm just saying if that's what's desired, then the public has to be willing to give it up. All of it. Like other civilised countries have done.
101
Except this country is not very civilized! Civility here has been increasingly lost since the 1960ies. Just look at the situation in healthcare, education, drugs, mentally ill people roaming our cities, subway tracks filling up with trash a day or two they have cleaned them etc. And compare that to other first-world counties...
15
We are not a civilized country. Plenty of other choices if one doesn't want to live amongst barbarians.
3
@RamS
This is a comment that bears deep reflection. If we all put down our guns, we have to accept that we might be in a situation where a "bad actor" has one and we don't. That acknowledgment of vulnerability is something the gun-toters can't bear.
We honor those who are willing to lay down their lives to defend us in the military or law enforcement, but perhaps this is a choice each of us needs to make every day: we prefer to live in a gun-free society, even if on rare occasions an unarmed individual is killed by an armed criminal. We reject living in an armed-to-the-teeth society where on increasingly frequent occasions groups of innocent people are killed randomly. We are willing to commit our lives to building the kind of world we want to live in, which does not involve the constant threat that a peaceful public gathering will end in a hail of bullets and bloodshed.
I believe that if we choose the latter, we will have fewer gun-related deaths annually. And we'll live in a world not premised on readiness to kill.
One tragic but instructive consequence after some of these recent mass shootings is that trained and sometimes armed law enforcement and former military have been among the victims. This should put to rest once and for all the absurdist myth that a "good guy with a gun" present on the scene of a shooting spree could "take down" the shooter. Madness.
11
Not likely to happen. Trump would have get brave first.
1
Note the picture accompanying this editorial. Latest addition to the rules for display of the American flag. It is flown at half mast.
2
Dereliction of duty, pure and simple, practiced by the ego maniac, demagogue, amoral Trump.
To be fair to him, all pols. and all Americans share in the blame by not implementing a policy of legality, regulation, responsibility, and non promotion of the gun, just like we had fantastic results with cig. smoking and drunk driving.
However, Trump has brought our national abuse gun sickness to a new level with his rabble rousing, bigoted talk.
As Lincoln taught us in his iconic second inag. address re what we paid for the evil of slavery, and I am paraphrasing, if God wills that we will continue to go thru this carnage, the judgment of the Lord must be right.
1
It won't be long when we start having people who will have survived two or more massacres.
It won't be long when we start having generations of people who have been through massacres.
All of these massacres are the result of the Republican "Thoughts and Prayers" gun policy which translates to doing absolutely nothing for gun control or improving mental health care.
While these massacres occur on a frequent basis, Trump instead spends valuable time, effort, money, and military resources in response to a caravan of Central American immigrants that not even close to arriving at the border to ask for asylum.
Brown people aren't the problem. White American males with guns are the problem!!!
3
@mrpisces I see that you're part of the problem instead of part of the solution.
Your immediate jump to declare this a GOP problem is the problem.
Mental health is the issue. Tell me one of these mass shooters that wasn't already known to have mental health issues before they did what they did?
And as shown in NYC, sometimes it takes a Home Depot rental truck or a bomb in a dumpster to impose fear on society.
This isn't a gun issue. This is a mental health issue and the state/county officials already have all the authority they need to prempt these massacres by being proactive in applying for TVRO's for mentally unstable people who are already showing signs of a meltdown.
Blaming me for this isn't going to solve it. I'm just going to become more resolved to keep things just as they are until you change your attitude before you start insisting I change my behavior.
You first...what are you willing to give up in order for us to concede something?
We need better gun restrictions but we also need to get rid of Trump. His vitriol is causing a lot of the shooters, bombers, stabbers, and all around murderers to feel as free to run amok as 10 full moons. Trump is the catalyst - get rid of him and the hysteria he creates that affects the borderline mentally ill will slack off a little.
1
Trump clearly said a few days ago that he won't work with the Democrats on anything if the House of Representatives investigates him. No way will the Dems shirk their duty and knuckle under in response to this thuggish threat.
The standoff will last two years unless Trump resigns, dies, or is impeached before 2020.
Nothing absolute about existence on planet earth. US population 320 million plus and so many ways to die by accident or intention: Death by text-driving is still higher. Guns just more dramatic.
Risk of living with a "Bill of Rights". Much better than NYT Editorial Board's notion of a Grand Collective "America, the No Guns Zone".
California gun laws most stringent in the nation, save perhaps Chicago. Go figure.
1
More excuses for doing nothing. Just wait a few weeks for the next massacre. And do nothing.
There is only one solution! The malicious Supreme Court decision of Citizen's United has to be modified.
All this talk of changing gun laws is nonsense as long as the NRA can give unlimited amounts of money to lawmaker's PACs.
Even when gun laws are passed, the $$ influences lawmakers to slip in little loopholes that make the new legislation virtually meaningless. They do it by graft; paying politicians to amend laws and then vote for them. Most politicians care more about their continued careers than the people they represent. They lie to get elected, then do what their financial supporters pay them to do.
Example: California is said to have some of the strongest gun laws in the nation. Yet gun laws here don't outlaw the possession of large gun magazines, they outlaw the PURCHASE of gun magazines. So if you want a big magazine you just run over to Nevada or Arizona and buy one and bring it on back, totally legally. Moreover, existing over-sized magazines will last for a long time. Possession should be illegal, with stiff sentences.
Those loopholes are created with malice and intent and hypocrisy of lawmakers. The hypocrisy won't go away, so take the money away.
2
Forget Trump and GOP. They are useless. The best angle was what Bloomberg's: just buyout the gun manufacturers and own the NRA.
Trump is no need of a success in establishing gun control legislation and will never pursue it.
Nor is he in need of any kind of a legacy beyond the one he already enjoys as the meanest, coarsest, most corrupt President in American history.
2
"Mr. Trump has a taste for combat..."
Verbal combat -- sure.
Real combat -- not so much.
1
If you want it to stop then the mass media has to recognize the role that media agitation has on inspiring and inciting these incidents. This editorial will have no effect whatsoever on preventing another incident, but it may incite one.
This is a wonderful idea. I would be very very surprised if Trump goes along with it. He is basically a coward (bullies always are) and narcissistic. At the first sign of pushback from the NRA, he would fold. If any of those adoring crowds at his rallies booed the idea of tighter gun laws, he would fold. Anyway, it is worth a try. I love to be surprised.
I'm sorry NYT but I can't find any actual quote of Trump saying he wants tougher gun laws. I don't know where you're getting that from. I think when Trump talks about anything happening in a "beautiful bi-partisan fashion" he means killing the Mueller investigation and letting him do whatever he wants.
If you really take an honest look at Trump's last actions after the Las Vegas shootings it will inform you what he plans to do with this latest mass murder. After Vegas Trump made some appropriate squeaks about gun control, then "consulted" the fabulous beautiful "experts" at the NRA , then he just started picking fights with black NFL players and the NFL and the subject was replaced in the headlines...The end. The NRA has paid Trump 30 million dollars (that we know about) to NOT do anything. Nothing has changed.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Muskets and Blunderbusses, shall not be infringed.
1
It is very difficult to take you seriously when NONE of the proposals you advance would have stopped ANY of the events about which you complain. That just demonstrates that you wave a bloody shirt to silence opposition, despite the fact that your policy initiatives have precisely nothing to do with actual events.
So, more back ground checks? That has ... well, precisely what to do with events in NV or CA? Higher purchase age? Ditto. (This from the same folks who often support letting 16 year-olds vote) Bump stocks? The CA murderer used a pistol.
Yes, we know that you have the “impulse to do more”, but that impulse is utterly unrelated to the actual problem; you just don’t like guns and will use events as excuses to advance an agenda, despite the fact that the agenda would not have prevented the events.
So, you can moan about “gun violence” all you want; when you offer a platform that would actually have the effect of reducing it, then we can start the discussion.
So you are counting on Donald Trump becoming a hero. Good grief, Editorial Board! Can’t you see Lucy pulling away the football?
1
...but it won’t stop. The only people more cowardly than the gunmen are the political leaders who will not stand up to the NRA. I realized that after Sandy Hook. If the massacre of children didn’t change the moral compass of our country, then nothing ever will. Shame on us.
Show some leadership an investigate the link between anti-phsychotic medications and these shooting incidents. Such coverage is glaringly absent from media coverage of these events.
Why does he describe bipartisanship as he would the light fixtures in one of his hotels? "Beautiful?" If that in fact happens it would be more like a miracle.
1
When I was small, which was in the 1950's and early 60's I would tell others about a family tragedy- the Unruh murders in Camden, N.J. My aunt and uncle were killed along with 10 others in 1949. WhoeverI told gaped at me and wondered how such a mindless act could occur. No one ever gave me a comparative example as to something like this in their family.
I pity our populace with having to put up with almost daily thoughts and prayers. It is amazing to me that our politicians are cowards while we get weekly reminders of heroes among our first responders. Perhaps some of them should run for office against our "Tough -Guys" politicos.
50
@unclejake I grew up in Camden County and remember at least hearing about the Unruh murders. Certainly I remember the guy in the tower in Texas. And yes, such things were hardly daily news.
When I was 19, a guy rampaged through an office building across the street from where I worked. Killed six and crippled one. I think he had been refused a job as a security guard there the year before. (1973)
The guy in Thousand Oaks had purchased a handgun legally. I don't know what the cure is for wounded narcissism, which is what I think drives all of these losers to their acts.
5
Trump has also said he does NOT want tougher gun laws. And he said he wanted healthcare for all Americans. And he said he wanted to protec the Dreamers. So why are you trying to pretend that anything he says is in any way useful?
1
This who commit these atrocities are mentally ill. No realistic legislation can stop them. The best thing we can do right now is not to make heroes out of them by naming them. Let then suffer in anonymity. At a minimum, please, please, stop referring to them as "gunman." That is a compliment to many, bringing to mind a Wild West gunslinger. Give them a name that they would be utterly ashamed to own. Your staff is smart. Think of something. Shine the light. Lead the way.
Constructive bipartisan politics by Trump? Doesn't the NYT read its own analyses of the man who thrives on division and conflict? It's all he has, in absence of morals, beliefs, principles or just even a feasible set of workable policies on immigration, globsl trade, the environment.
1
I am a gun-owning liberal Democrat.
These massacres tear at our soul.
But so far I have seen not a single law aimed at gun control that isn't just a feel-good move. People who are motivated by their own inner sense of being a nobody will simply find other ways.
The Boston Marathon bombers built bombs. Restrict clip size and you just buy more clips. Cars driven into crowds can kill dozens.
These killers are not motivated by the number of people they kill. They are motivated by seeing themselves as killers. Kill 6 or 60 doesn't change that.
We are a culture of success being a zero-sum game. That means there will be losers. And those losers now know how to be winners, in their own minds. A few restrictions on guns will not change that.
Do we need prominent NRA or Congressional members victimized by gun violence repeatedly as these innocents were? Even the baseball practice of the GOP wasn't enough. Guns don't kill, Congress and the NRA do.
These gun massacres reflect what we are as a nation. "MY RIGHTS TO OWN A GUN" trump (sic) any other points in the Constitution. No sense of collective responsibility. The NRA needs to be reduced to a gun safety club, not an evil political machine.
1
It's not safe at movie theaters (Aurora, CO), concerts (Las Vegas, NV), parties (San Bernardino, CA), schools (Parkland, Sandy Hook), bars or clubs (Thousand Oaks, Orlando), even temples or churches (New Town, Pittsburgh).
When it comes to firearms without limits, this country is insane.
2
That image. Let's just keep the flags at half staff all the time.
1
It's much worse than your headline implies. You do mention in the piece later on that there is now at least one American who SURVIVED one mass shooting only to be murdered in another a year later: Telemachus Orphanos. His mother's anguish and rage demands a response. But who are we kidding? Little children were murdered in a mass shooting at Sandy Hook and even someone like me, who almost always believes that things can change, no longer does believe that. I believe that we will do nothing about guns for the foreseeable future. I'll still march and vote and protest and fight, because it's the right thing to do and I guess a little flame still flickers, but when those children were gunned down, my hopes for that particular change died with them.
1
While the President is modifying the 14th Amendment to suit his agenda he needs to modify the 2nd.
2
The Sutherland Texas massacre victims should not be included in this piece, many of them are quite happily going on with their weapons.
I was shocked to hear the head of the family of 9 victims say he was happy that they go to see Jesus first before him.
Not that anger is the proper sentiment but members of another religion also profess their happiness with death and don’t mind meeting their maker either.
Following the terrible tragedy in Pittsburgh, the President declared flags be flown at half staff.
The White House has again issued a declaration that flags be flown at half staff for the victims of the Thousand Oaks shooting.
Do you think if we begin to see our flags flying at half staff every day...we'll begin to see the reality of gun violence in this country?
Or do you think we'll just accept it...like we do our children being shot in their own schools?
What will it take?
2
Some in America hold fast to their guns because they believe it’s their connection to some idea of American Heritage. They yearn for some kind of cultural heritage. Look at the great world cultures filled with so many things : art, fashion, music, architecture, innovation. Sad that the Gun worshippers lack any real cultural identity. They’d rather believe in boogeymen and some agrarian backwards looking idea of heroism in the wild wild west at the expense of people’s lives (many whom could be future culture producers).
1
I do not care what Trump says. It does not mean anything anyway.
Like a bag of rice that tips over somewhere in China.
Just removal this individual from office.
The NRA will be knocking on his door with threats from his base. He wanted gun control after school shootings & then appeared at NRA meetings to assure them he would protect them from the Democrats. Why would he change now when the Democrats have the House? More puff from the fraud. He won’t hurt his base talking about gun control. They would turn on him.
2
After the horrific tragedy at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh less than two weeks ago, Donald Trump said, "If there was an armed guard inside the temple, they would have been able to stop him."
The gunman allegedly responsible for this latest massacre at Thousand Oaks is said to have shot an armed security guard at the bar and also killed a sheriff's deputy who responded to the attack. 12 people, including the deputy, died all the same.
So what's the answer now Mr. Trump? Armed guards with heavier firepower, maybe sub-machine guns? Multiple armed guards everywhere? When are you and your Republican buddies going to stop kowtowing to the NRA?
1
A person unfamiliar with the impermeable nature of the minds of ideologues, with respect to taking onboard facts and reason, might suppose that - if anyone - a New York City journalist would understand that random violent acts cannot be prevented with a law.
Yet here we are, again being lectured by the N Y Times Editorial Board on how laws at the national level will have some magic curative effect unachievable at the state level.
California has, well, pretty strict firearms laws already.
Stricter gun laws will change nothing.
And blaming the NRA is a classic misdirection from the collectivist progressives, who seek to push society toward their agenda by claiming that individuals are no longer respnsible for their own actions.
Because, it's - society's - fault.
Enforcing existing laws would be a logical alternative approach along with keeping people judged insane off the streets instead of letting them loose because we don't want to hurt their feelings by judging them to be other than normal.
Unless we are all prepared to live in the paradise that the Democrats have in mind for us, where people are arrested for what they think, or say - and rights formerly considered inalienable are converted to revocable grants from the state - then the best thing to do is close this article and move on to something sensible.
@Objectivist
"...along with keeping people judged insane off the streets..."
So I assume you're proposing higher government spending to keep these insane people in asylums, or perhaps in our already largest in the world prison system (which doubles as a de facto storage facility for insane people already).
And which existing gun laws are you proposing to enforce? The strict ones in CT, MA, NY and CA or the practically non-existent ones in places like, well, everywhere else in our country?
@Objectivist -- control of bombings in America is surprisingly good. We have had ZERO cases of those licensed to handle explosives diverting them into acts of terror -- that's remarkable, and a strong demonstration of how effective rational licensing schemes can be.
We have had a handful of crude terrorist bombs and bombers -- the Tsarnev brothers made pressure-cooker bombs using black power for the Boston marathon bombing, but there are almost no more sophisticated domestic bombings since the laws were tightened after the Oklahoma Murtaugh building bombing.
Thankfully "mother of satan" (TATP) has not become popular in the USA -- but there is a rough justice that keeps it from being popular with terrorists -- many of those who play with it blow themselves up.
1
@Mikeweb
Well, what's your recommendation ? Let them wander the streets and live beneath bridges ?
If the mental fitness of this most recent individual had been better managed, this tragedy may have been averted. Temporarily.
And yes, whatever gun laws are in place in each state.
It is not the purview of the people of New York City to impose their notion of firearms regulations on the people of (for example) Texas.
Although, thinking about it, rapid implementation of strict and targeted nationwide gun laws will certainly make it simpler for the right wing religious conservatives to round up the gays and transgenders.
Here's another thought.
Are you flexible about which items in the Bill of Rights, are actually rights ?
Let's eliminate the right to free speech and make it a privilege granted and revoked at the discretion of whatever official(s) in government have the decision making power on any given day.
If there was a simple solution we'd already have done it.
The increasingly-militarized guns of Amerika are simply the surplus production of the small arms sector of the military/industrial/Congressional complex.
The NRA is simply the domestic threat-marketing and psyops operation that drives demand for the surplus. It is not in any fascist's interest to reduce the threat domestically. It is the fascist's interest to continually stimulate internal threat and cause political, economic and social divisions which seek safety as they are herded into groups.
I am from Wyoming, the #1 state for guns, per capita.
I know what I'm talking about: fascism was defined in 1895 by Mosca's "The Ruling Class".
1
Donald Trump has no interest at all in saving lives whether those of Americans killed at the hands of gun wielding Americans or up to half the population of Yemen faced by bombing and starvation related in large part to the Saudi-US war on Yemen.
We have here complete coverage of the latest US terror attack.
Here is the complete coverage by the Times on November 8 of the situation in Yemen.
GENEVA — The World Food Programme plans to double its food assistance program for Yemen, aiming to reach up to 14 million people "to avert mass starvation", it said in a statement on Thursday.
"Yemen is the largest hunger crisis in the world. Millions of people are living on the edge of famine and the situation is getting worse by the day," said WFP, which is already providing food assistance to 7-8 million Yemenis.
(Reporting by Tom Miles; Editing by Kevin Liffey)
Loss of human life is not a matter of any deep interest for this president, whether of a dozen or two in the US or a million or two in Yemen.
Expect nothing, not even a tweet.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
Here is how insane our gun laws are. Here in Colorado, I can go out and buy 2 AR-15s, a Glock handgun, all in about 30 minutes. Then, I can go to Walmart and buy as much ammo as they have on their shelf.
And then, EVEN IF I wanted to register them with the state, I cannot.
Am I required to register my weapon in the State of Colorado?
The State of Colorado prohibits gun registration. CRS 29-11.7-
So, basically, anyone over 18, if they have the money, can purchase a small military arsenal here, and have it all at home in a matter of a couple hours. Insane
2
Wow. Really? 20+ school children massacred in Connecticut during the era of a D president and absolutely nothing was changed. Now we have a president whose reaction to the Pittsburgh massacre is some absurd “what if” musing about armed guards at the temple. In the face of this you are hoping that he will spend some personal capital on pushing through stricter gun laws? Nice thought but simply light years from reality.
Can this really happen? This from the man who took millions in campaign money from the NRA. Asking the bought off Republicans mainly in the senate who are also bought off with huge sums by the NRA. Ask yourselves that.
"clearly the impulse to do more [to stop gun violence] lies somewhere inside of [Trump], perhaps waiting for the right political moment to arise."
How gullible can you get? Taking Trump's words at face value, as this article does, will only lead us forther down the garden path.
The NRA -- along with other rich lobbies, like pharma and big oil -- can be stopped only by cutting off their air supply -- the ability to bribe the government with campaign money.
All deadly violence matters and has to stop. Bars have historically have their own guards appropriately called bar bouncers to maintain order due to alcohol consumption in bars. Alcohol is a behavior modifying agent and that is precisely the reason why some people drink alcohol on a regular basis or have alcohol addiction. Any one is free to consume alcohol in the USA but to expect protection above and beyond the local police is impractical. I have no use for guns but I will have no problem for a certain fixed period say remainder of the Trump's first term if the bar employs private armed guards to protect their place until such time we as a nation have appropriate gun controls and get a handle on those who are mentally challenged and have deadly WMDs.
I make a distinction on how other places or worship, education, clinics, public places should be handled. Such places should be gun free places at all times and all movement of fire arms should be monitored and restricted with tracking systems within one mile of such places. I will never forget the religious hatred against unarmed Jews in a synagogue in Pittsburgh, against unarmed Muslims in a mosque in Quebec, against unarmed Christians in Church in South Carolina and Texas, against Sikhs in Gurudwara in Oak Creek Wisconsin. In a country that prides in religious freedom these hate crimes should stop forever at all cost and whatever it takes to stop this foul murder of innocents.
1
To the Editorial Board: You said "it has to stop"
These killings are becoming epidemic in part because you give extensive attention to the killers. That only encourages other nuts who want such attention. If you sincerely want it to stop, then stop publishing the names and other information about the killers. It does not serve any useful purpose to publish such information. The editorial board should examine the motives of the NYT in publishing such information. How much of its motive is to pump ratings and ad revenues? That would be shameful.
If "most National Rifle Association members are in favor of" sensible gun reform, like intensive background checks, banning bump stocks and upping the purchase age from 18 to 21, why then is the Congress giving into the Board members and Wayne LaPierre of the NRA. It would appear that the dues paying members have no clout with the Organization they pay dues too.
When State Legislatures and Governors in many States fo not care about sensible gun reform. When the Republican Congress does not care about sensible gun reform. When the people who run the NRA do not care about sensible gun reform, I have to ask why the majority of citizens keep re-electing theses doofus's.
Our Capitalistic society used to have compassion at one time.
Now all it cares about is money. There is something wrong with this picture.
And to get the Supreme Court to do the right thing is never going to happen.
2nd Amendment rights have nothing to do with this problem, although the NAR and the Republicans in congress would have you believe otherwise.
It is all about the money, not innocent lives.
@Jean -- Ollie North is the head of the NRA now.
I will grudgingly say that is an improvement over Wayne.
I think that Ollie doesn't peddle "2nd amendment remedies" as much as Wayne did -- and this may be because he knows what real combat is like, and how futile it would be for a pack of Glock-waving old white boys to try a shooting revolution.
1
I suppose I can understand the frustration that leads you to use the President's words against him. But I would not think many people still believe the President's words are any more than an indication of the various thoughts and emotions that happen to be crashing about in his mind at the moment. The words are subject to change and he will deny saying whatever it is that he has turned against as he is buffeted by the newest sensory input. If and when a change in gun laws occurs, the President will point out with his usual humility that it had always been his idea anyway even when he was against it.
196
Maybe those flags at the Washington Monument should be kept permanently at half-staff, with a digital display board (similar to the National Debt Clock) set up on the face of the Monument to keep track of the number of deaths caused by gun violence. Somehow, we just "don't get it" as a nation.
313
@Erik. Great idea and should be a Go Fund Me campaign which I would gladly contribute. A large billboard should be erected or rented as near the Capital in DC so our elected officials can’t ignore their duplicity.
16
@PatMurphy77
There was a gun death counter in Boston right on I-90 for years... it was removed a couple of years ago, I think it ran out of digits.
18
@Erik I recently said to my wife, oh look, the flags are at full staff again. I wonder how long it will be until they are at half-staff again. Sadly, I now know. Perhaps we should leave them at half-staff to show the sadness America has become.
16
If we must have Auto insurance on a vehicle designed for transporting that could cause injury why do we not have mandated insurance on a weapon designed specifically for killing. Rates would be based on risk factors and the degree to which these are mitigated. Things such as gun safety training, backgrounds of violence, degree of lethality of the weapon, etc. would determine how much is paid. As well as are you a high risk group. If we are to enshrine the right to bear arms then the potential impacts and liabilities of wropsns should not be ignored. We the tax payers have subsidized gun ownership through our need to fund police, healthcare, jails, and other services. There is also our overall loss of productivity. I have a right to own a car and a house but I am insured in case someone gets hurt. Why is the same not true of guns.
453
I agree, at least for semi-auto guns insurance should be required, under strict liability.
But the problem is that the liabilities that can be created are so high, that the premiums will be very expensive. This IS REALITY -- guns generate enormous costs to society, and at present almost all of these costs are borne by the victims and taxpayers (for uninsured medical costs ).
60
@Michael You seem to forget that poll taxes are unconstitutional to exercise a right. It's funny how gun control advocates want gun owners to buy insurance, but they also BAN insurance like Cuomo did with the NRA carry guard.
1
@Michael
Agreed- but in this particular case, I would think that this killer, as an ex-marine who was honorably discharged, would not have a problem getting insurance for his weapons.
2
Some people over there think you need to do what we did with our gun bans and buyback here in Australia, but it's too late for solid and substantial change like that now. The only hope you have is to chip away gently around the edges to gain something that might help save a few hundred people a year, and then maybe, if you can change cultural attitudes, in a few generations you may have caught up with the rest of the world and may be able to make more substantial changes.
Problem isn't the laws there, it's the attitude. You're all too busy screaming about your 'rights' to recognise that with those rights come responsibility.
581
Sane Americans (I'd like to include myself in that group) would like the USA to do what Australia did: draw the line as to what weapons are allowed in civilian hands and be done with the mass shootings that result from military-type, rapid-fire, high-ammunition-capacity weapons.
We already draw the line somewhere. As I understand it, I'm not allowed to have my own. . . .
• 50-calibre machine gun
• Thermonuclear device
• Hand grenades
• Backyard howitzer
and so on.
The Supreme Court has ruled that the government has the right to "regulate" the militia and that would include regulating what weapons the militia is allowed to have on the streets of our country.
And the decline of civic education has, as you note, eroded the public's understanding of the balance of rights and responsibilities that exists. Even more so, the public seems to be ignorant of the notion frequently expressed in court rulings that there is always an interplay in striking a balance between competing rights and interests. The government's right to interfere comes from a "compelling interest" as a standard recognized in many court decisions.
Right now, the Supreme Court has muddied the waters in so many areas but can't seem to grasp the compelling interest that the citizens rightly have to not be gunned down simply because another person's "right" to have an inappropriate weapon cannot be "infringed."
It's ridiculous. The right to life and the pursuit of happiness needs to be at the top.
@Flossy
39
@Flossy Sadly, I just read an article about the "gun culture" of the USA now spreading to Italy. There are now gun lovers in Italy eager to buy assault rifles. And Italy's far-right deputy PM has loosened gun laws to allow assault rifle ownership.
12
@Flossy I agree 100%. Nothing is going to change until one person's right to draw breath supersedes another's right to own weapons with lethal potential the Founders could never imagine. Until owning weapons of mass destruction becomes as socially unacceptable as smoking in hospitals, we will continue to be moving targets for angry, disturbed gun worshippers. No way out of this until we lose the guns. How about we stop pretending that thoughts and prayers are nothing more than saying, "Too bad your loved one is dead or maimed for life or psychologically shattered. Rest assured that we'll be thinking of you for at least 15 minutes. "
38
38K gun deaths/yr. Many more wounded but lived. The survivors care costs how much? Doctors say it's an epidemic, the NRA says that's nonsense. What if we had a communicable disease that killed and sickened so many, wouldn't we demand a vaccine? But the NRA says, preposterously, that guns don't kill, crazy people do, you know like the 10yo who kills his little sister with daddy's gun..a tragic accident? Cars kill twice as many as guns. Both have human fingers on the wheel or trigger. But we recognize that cars do kill and make senseable laws and regulations to to decrease the toll and the staggering costs involved. Obviously the same sort of rules should apply to guns. No one could argue that increasing deaths from auto accidents is not a Public Heath problem, likewise for guns.
57
@bahcom: In addition, cars have a major utilitarian purpose in our everyday lives. Not so with guns.
7
@bahcom Thank you for making the comparison between gun deaths and auto deaths. I find it very interesting that gun lovers always say that guns don't kill people; people kill people, yet in the vast majority of news reports about car crashes the vehicle is blamed and there is zero mention of the human driver's involvement and their responsibility to drive safely and not kill people. I regularly message our local newspapers to remind them that vehicles don't kill people; people kill people with their vehicles. It's time to require insurance on guns!
4
@Jomo excellent point, and cars are not designed as weapons but as a means of transportation, whereas guns serve only one purpose: To kill either an animal or a human being.
4
Good try, NYT. I really wish it would work -- giving Trump another opportunity to boost his ego, while (inadvertently) doing some good. But to expect any good from this president, even as a by product, is dreaming in color. I agree the Democrats should try to work with him on this. And then prepare to do what is necessary to reduce further harm that he will do.
We have much to learn from other nations, but are we prepared to listen and learn?
@Penseur: Are we prepared to listen and learn? I'm afraid the answer is no. If we didn't learn after 20 children (and 6 adults) were massacred in Sandy Hook I doubt we will ever learn.
"Yeah...I'm insane, but the only thing you people do after these shootings is "hopes and prayers"
-Ian David Long's final post on social media before he went out and killed 12 people.
What do these words mean, this is what I have been trying to figure out. Long was a Marine, a decorated soldier, who had served his country in war. He picked a bar, a bar that he knew was having college night, what exactly was going though his mind, what was the mad reason behind the insanity? He suffered from PTSD of that there is no doubt, his war time experiences had shattered his mind. It's almost as though he was making a statement about how far our society has shifted towards narcissism and political corruption.
Long was ready to take his own life, this is a suicide, but in the new fashion, in which the victim somehow blames society for their plight and loneliness, so they lash out in a terrible way and go out with a big noise. It's like saying 'no one will listen to me, no one cares, but now they will listen."
I do not pretend to be a psychologist, but it's time we look past the kill totals, the talk of gun bans, and truly try to understand what put this man on the path that led to death of so many innocent human beings, because it's the only chance we have to stop this. Epidemics don't end with talk and rhetoric they end when the cure is found.
3
The ONLY way to make it more difficult for the wrong kind of people to obtain guns is to make it more difficult for everyone to obtain guns. If you’re not prepared to work on the latter, you stand no chance of mitigating the former.
As long as there’s a right to own, as long as a significant minority delude themselves that guns make you safer instead of in more danger, and that guns help you resist tyranny instead of imposing their own tyranny ... Americans will continue to get slaughtered at near-war zone levels.
2
Someone posted that California has the strictest gun laws in America. I'm not sure that's true, but a quick shuffle through Google shows that the last mass incident with a firearm in New York was Binghamton in 2009. Cold comfort, I suppose.
What I am sure of is that I'm getting sick and tired of waking up, looking out my window, and seeing the flag at half mast again. I check my calendar to find that it's not a national holiday.
Then I turn on my radio, and the tears come . . .
2
To carry or not to carry, that is the question. My father got rid of his guns, some heirlooms, before he died. I miss them because of the heirloom part and therein lies the crux of the debate.
1
Thanks to the NRA and venal self-serving politicians throughout the country there are gun murders every day in America. Let's just fly all our flags at half mast until private gun ownership, the cause of all these deaths is finally eliminated from within our borders. Many, many, many, many more innocent people are killed in the U.S. each year by guns in the hands of citizens who have "legal" permits to carry guns than by all illegal immigrants who ever entered the country at anytime in its history.. Let us look at reality and see who the very, very bad people really are, President Trump.
1
@RLW
BRAVO!!! Well said...you nailed it!
How many more children, how many more people have to get slaughtered before it becomes obvious to everyone that this warped interpretation of the 2nd amendment makes us less safe? A vast majority of gun owners will never actually use those guns to save their lives nor to defend themselves or anyone else.
This is beyond a national disgrace. This is a cultural sickness and a disease. To continue to let these things happen when we absolutely can do something to stop it is cruel insanity. What kind of monsters are we?
2
Mark my word that I want this to stop too. BUT - I said it before and I will say it again, that if we as a nation did NOTHING after 6 -year olds were slaughtered in their elementary school, then we never will.
5
It's easier to get a 30-round clip than it is to get 30 Prozacs. Which do you think you can change?
2
"This is what it’s come to — there are now Americans who have lived through two gun massacres."
"This has to stop."
It seems to me that folks having lived through two gun massacres is still not as bad as the Sandy Hook massacre of children and we didn't accomplish anything after that one. But we should try again.
Massacre of children.
2
Those Americans need to STOP patronizing night clubs and public musical events. I suggest a year off in quiet St. Kitts.
1
It won't make it into the genteel conversations that The Times conducts, but no, this doesn't have to stop, because outside your circles there are Conservatives defending this indefensible scourge and making sure that it can happen again. The NRA's poisonous Dana Loesch insists that "What happened was horrific. Evil is real. So are CA gun laws". It's much worse in the more obscure web salons where The Times fears to step. Some people like mass gun murders because they like the statement they make. They like the fear they create. Trump isn't going to cross these people. He'll mobilize them for his own needs if he has to.
If the Democrats assume good faith on the part of Trump, and come to some legislative agreement, he’s going to wind up at a rally in the immediate aftermath and rant about how he was pressured into doing the “presidential” thing.
And they still should. The wanton slaughter of Americans by other Americans needs to end.
Repeal the Second Amendment, the purpose of which has been twisted beyond the intent of our founders. And then? Get. Rid. Of. The. Guns. Period.
Random violence will never be controlled by law. America suffers from a disease...a plague of violent behavior. We are born to it. It is our history, our entertainment, our religion, our sport, even our government. We are kidding ourselves if we believe in solutions.
My only hope lies in a generation that can find itself more interested in peaceful interchange than confrontation. No one can tell if that might ever happen.
“Common sense gun measures” is an oxymoron. There is no common sense to weapons of mass destruction.
Gun control really works. Incredible results in Chicago, Baltimore and Los Angeles.
1
The table is set. there are two plates to eat from, hate and love, darkness and light. Guess which plate has guns.
1
Meaningful gun control will happen only after the terms of the debate change. The NRA must be indelibly labeled as the Mass Murder Lobby. The idea that the MML is a protector of the Constitution must be rejected completely. The MML works solely to advance the profits of gun manufacturers and retailers. When greed rather than patriotism is clearly seen and understood as the motivating factor, the chances for progress will grow.
Justice Stevens' op-ed remains the only truly realistic approach to gun control.
As long as the 2nd Amendment is in place, every solution, however reasonable, will have to pass the all-gazing eye of SCOTUS applying strict scrutiny.
The 2nd needs to be repealed, replaced, or updated. Only then can we make true progress towards gun control.
It's gotten to be where we're afraid to live in America. While I don't dwell on being shot, it's always in the back of my mind when I eat out at restaurants, shop for groceries, watch a film in a movie theater, or go to an outdoor festival. I find myself scanning exits, wondering if going under a table is a good idea, realizing that with a cane and a limp I won't be able to outrun anybody.
I didn't think this way even a decade ago. We should be the safest country in the world. Instead, we have to fear some man will go off the rails and start shooting.
1
ban all automatic weapons; ban their bullets; ban all guns which can be converted into automatic weapons; eliminate that industry. Make guns very difficult to own. Set limits on how many can be in a house, like 2. Yearly license checks. Sanity checks.
The only guns that should remain legal to own are small caliber revolvers, bolt action hunting rifles and double barrel shotguns. Anything else simply allows for too much violence, which is what they’re designed for.
1
I'm not holding my breath.
If 26 slaughtered elementary students and teachers 6 years ago or 17 slaughtered high school students and staff earlier this year couldn't move the needle nationally, I doubt that this will.
And expecting trump to provide a modicum of meaningful leadership and actual action on this topic that even has enormous support from voters, is foolhardy IMO.
1
1 - There are 300 million guns in the US and NO ONE is safe ANYWHERE in this country. Not at a bar, not at a movie, not at an Amish school house, not at work, not even in their own homes.
2 - Guns empower people who feel like losers.
3 - The gun is central to their fantasies. Without the gun, without the combat clothes, would they really want to get into hand-to-hand combat with their victims?
4 - How many of the people who've died in these events would be alive today if their attackers didn't have a gun? Almost all of them - seems like a safe bet.
America is being held hostage by the NRA. I feel pity and disgust for anyone who thinks they need a gun to live in America.
2
There wouldn't be drug cartels if people didn't use drugs, there wouldn't be a gun issue if people would do the right thing. This is a cultural issue of our times. I don't use drugs and have no interest in guns, who's with me on that?
Trump's only legacy will be a divided America with more bad blood between sides than ever before.
By the way, this is mass shooting number 307 in the US this year. Most of them aren't as dramatic in terms of injured and wounded as the ones mentioned in the article, but they happened.
Until Americans stand up for what we believe, we will get nowhere with the lobbyists in Washington.
"the N.R.A., which remains a rich, powerful force in our political system"
We must look at the root cause of this issue.
The NRA has control over much of Congress, because it can quickly fund candidates to successfully expel and replace an uncooperative member.
What we have in essence is a for-profit corporate entity that no one voted for, that answers to no one, controlling the government. Corporate control is not "liberty" and a government "small enough to drown in a bathtub" does not mean "freedom". It means control by groups who answer to no one.
The NRA is only one example of this. Corporations are becoming ever more powerful, and we need to do something about this before our Republic is completely destroyed.
1
A question for those who continue to say all these shootings have nothing to do with availability of guns but simply reflects mental illness.
If this is true, then why are Americans so much more likely to be mentally ill than those in any other industrialized country. If so, there is something inherently defective with the American people.
Oh, and with all those who say we need better care of the mentally ill, isn't it funny that at the same time they have been supporting legislation and court cases stripping requirements that insurance policies cover treatment of mental illness which would result in many of those with mental illness no longer be covered for treatment.
66
@Steve
Looking for logical and coherent policy from the GOP? I haven't seen evidence of that my entire adult life, and I'm 52.
6
@Steve
I agree with your points. To be clear (for others who may read this):
The prevalence of most mental health conditions has not increased substantially in the past 30 years even while non-intimate gun violence has skyrocketed. Additionally, there is no research that supports the idea that Americans are more prone to violence related to their mental health than are Canadians, Brits, Mexicans, French, or Italians (or many others). What is clear is that we have a culture of acting out violently with guns in a way that is remarkable.
7
@Steve Excellent!
2
This massacre and others like it are totally unnecessary and possibly avoidable. I am a veteran, a former member of a rifle team and occasional competition shooter. I do not have large capacity magazines for any of my rifles or pistols. It is not necessary. Anyone who tells you it is necessary for competitive sports shooting is exaggerating.
I strongly agree with the necessity to totally ban all large capacity magazines for every type weapon used by civilians. Even for bolt action, lever action, and pump action weapons. Only our military and some police need large capacity magazines for their weapons. Even then, the need for more firepower could be met by carrying several extra 8-10 round magazines. A 17 to 30 plus round capacity magazine is not reasonable for anyone except law enforcement or military personnel.
The NRA will strongly object to this as will some other law-abiding shooters. However the general welfare of other citizens and protecting their safety is more important. The very first M-16 rifles had only 20 round magazines for the military and even the M14 had only a 20 round magazine. The M-1 combat rifle of WWII only used an 8 shot clip (not a magazine) and it was one of the most lethal weapons on the battlefield.
Let's outlaw and ban high capacity magazines, bump-stocks, speed loaders, and quick-release magazines for every known weapon. And let's not "grandfather" any exception. Require everyone to turn them in including weapons collectors.
11
Areas to address with this particular mass shooting:
1. The shooter was a vet who was apparently suffering from PTSD and was evaluated by mental health professionals not long before the shooting. He was still able to purchase a gun.
Can we not pass common sense legislation requiring greater restrictions or vetting of potential gun purchasers with this type of history?
2. The hand gun used in the killings had an extra-capacity magazine. Why is there any sensible reason to allow these for "sportsmen"?
Can we not pass common sense legislation restricting the ability of people to have these types of magazines?
3. The gunman was a vet with PTSD.
Can we not think more carefully about sending our young men into battle unless the risk is absolutely necessary to protect vital US interests?
4
The sheer volume of mass shootings in the United States is insanity. California has stricter gun laws then most places and the shooter used legally obtained firearms. Perhaps these laws helped even greater casualties. We will never know. Obviously actions must be taken to reduce these far too common incidents of gun violence and carnage. Whatever steps taken must be on a national level. Firearms reform is vital but so are expansion of mental health services coupled with stigma reduction. The military must play a role. Post discharge outreach and support needs to be expanded. Helping veterans develop social networks can only serve the common good of our communities. I don't know all the answers but I do know we need rational discussion and action. Given the despotic State of American national politics I am not hopeful.
3
There is only one way to stop this madness- vote for Dems who will enact electoral reforms.
The real and permanent solution is to get money out of politics which is the real root cause of the inability to enact any gun control or decent reforms of any kind that includes not only gun control but also tax reform, environmental protections, etc .
The NRA and all other wildly out of control corporate money influences will only be curtailed if politics and elections get freed of the influence of money.
If you just vote Dems in and get narrow gun control reforms enacted- they will be temporary and rescinded as soon as the next GOP power wave comes in.
Permanent gun control will come only after the corrupting money influence of the NRA is destroyed once and for all.
This will require a major, bipartisan overhaul of election rules which will weed out the pols who are only in it for the greed and the power.
5
@marian Yeah, well, we just had an election. Americans are not interested. I was hoping the Parkland kids would help. But kids do not vote. No interest.
I consider myself a centrist but I'm strongly considering moving my family out of the country if our government can't get a handle on this. It's just gotten completely out of hand.
8
Trump opposing the NRA, dreaming at best. He will be running for re-election in a couple of years and will not risk alienating his base.
The people, state by state, will have to initiate gun control measures. Congress still fears the gun lobby, Republicans in particular. Many of their constituents are in rural states where gun ownership is a way of life. The NRA will continue to use the gun confiscation issue and rampant armed criminals in the neighborhood to sell their hate message.
The new Democratic House would do well to push for immigration reform, health care improvements, and infrastructure legislation. Leave gun control to state legislators or the state initiative process where it exists.
3
Any constructive impulses that Donald Trump has are quickly stifled by advisors like Stephen Miller who remind him that his base wouldn't like it. And where would Trump be without his rallies filled with adoring gun owners?
8
The best way to make this stop is to ensure all information from doctors and providers of the mentally ill are reported in the firearms background check database. That means everyone and every State has to submit their information. Further, there should be a anonymous tip line to report individuals that own firearms who are acting erratically or appear emotionally unstable. Even if those individuals exhibiting erratic behavior do not own firearms but live in a household that does have firearms.
6
Look, passing some enhanced gun control measures may well be appropriate here, but it is either disingenuous or dangerously naive to think that doing so would "stop" this problem. This is a deep, terrifying, and elusive social problem. This nation has always been awash with guns but we have not always been subject to this sort of senseless violence. Something besides the guns has changed, and we had better start thinking a bit more deeply and creatively about what that is, and what we can do about it.
14
This is the sadly common 'Making the perfect the enemy of the good' type of argument that almost guarantees that nothing will be done.
Nobody is saying that any one or two changes is going to 'eliminate' the problem. But if laws can be passed (and strongly enforced) to restrict the types of weapons available and who is allowed to own them, then these slaughters will become less deadly and hopefully less frequent.
My personal belief is that better gun control laws coupled with finding some way to squelch the level of divisiveness and outright lies that spew out of the FoxNews universe on a daily basis, and hatred coupled with borderline psychopathy that inhabits the more vile corners of the world wide web, would be an effective way forward.
@Shawn
We take no responsibility for ourselves, it's always "somebody else's fault." Fear and blame politics fueled by the constant bombardment 24 one-sided hyped news, which is nothing more than for-profit commerce, is brain washing the weak.
1
Money is the only thing that talks in this country. So the only solution is for there to be a lobbying organization that is MORE powerful and has deeper pockets than the NRA - one that has the opposite agenda of the NRA. All the fear mongering that the NRA does, our side has to do better - but it wouldn't be fear mongering - it would be reality. Show the daily deaths, the permanent disability, the blood, the trauma, the horror. It's all real. And for goodness sakes, RAISE MORE MORE MONEY! And then dangle that money in front of our senators. It's the only thing they respond to. Sad but true.
4
Thank you for this editorial. It's tragic that we still need to keep talking about this, and I can't imagine how it must feel for those who have now fled mass shootings twice--or for the family now mourning the new victim who survived the massacre in Las Vegas.
You hold out a sliver of hope for action from President Trump. I'm skeptical, and in fact I to re-read the following paragraph several times before I even understood what you were saying:
"When that upset the N.R.A., the president backpedaled. But clearly the impulse to do more lies somewhere inside of him, perhaps waiting for the right political moment to arise."
I kept misreading the 2nd sentence, because I thought you were implying the President had an "impulse to do more lies"--in other words, that "somewhere inside of him" there is always an impulse to tell more lies.
That, sadly, is also true. And it's one big reason I doubt we will see real action on common sense gun legislation in the next 2 years.
7
Gun rights are a question of American cultural identity as much as drinking wine is in France, beer in Germany and Vodka in Russia. I could expand this analogy to multiple other cultural stereotypes each nation is often at the same time proud and weary of.
Laws have to change but more so must the cultural narrative, which in the case of guns is about individuality, freedom and power, albeit the very limited one of personal protection, and in the worst case, expression of rage.
This change of narrative that originated with the self-defending settlers who then rose against the suppression of their European origins will take some time. We need to go deep into understanding our sense of freedom, our anxieties around it and also our sense as a community of people. Together we can move mountains, take care of the weak, help all rise (through education, affordable healthcare etc) but as a people of loners in a binary system of winners and losers, I am afraid we will see many, many more such killings.
6
@Matthias, yet the NRA has managed to rewrite the history of our relationship with guns, though Hollywood westerns might not have helped either. In the "Wild West," the laws would ban people from bringing their guns to town.
From https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/04/23/battleground-america :
"Even the West was hardly wild. 'Frontier towns handled guns the way a Boston restaurant today handles overcoats in winter,' Winkler writes. 'New arrivals were required to turn in their guns to authorities in exchange for something like a metal token.' In Wichita, Kansas, in 1873, a sign read, 'Leave Your Revolvers at Police Headquarters, and Get a Check.' The first thing the government of Dodge did when founding the city, in 1873, was pass a resolution that 'any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law.' On the road through town, a wooden billboard read, 'The Carrying of Firearms Strictly Prohibited.' The shoot-out at the O.K. Corral, in Tombstone, Arizona, Winkler explains, had to do with a gun-control law. In 1880, Tombstone’s city council passed an ordinance 'to Provide against the Carrying of Deadly Weapons.' When Wyatt Earp confronted Tom McLaury on the streets of Tombstone, it was because McLaury had violated that ordinance by failing to leave his gun at the sheriff’s office."
1
No other developed country has so many guns. America is overloaded with them. Australians agreed to hand over their guns to stop mass shootings. It worked. There are also military who have come back from war zones with PTSD. Mental health services need to be greatly increased. The societal cost is just too great when nothing is done.
8
@ibivi They have a population of 25 million. We have 12 times that many.
1
I am shocked at the NY times.
There were over 1000 demonstrations to Stop The Con Don and protect the Mueller investigation and last night and it didn't even make the front page and was barely mentioned in other articles. Why are they ignoring the massive actions WE THE PEOPLE are taking to take back OUR democracy? Many of the protestors who came out last night were also there to protest gun violence in OUR United States of America. Yet the media gives the nra and Con Don more fear fodder.
Fortunately the march/demonstration in Seattle was large enough that it messed up rush hour traffic and got quite a bit of television coverage.
It is past time for the media - especially newspapers - to stop kowtowing to the Robber Barons and cover what average citizens - WE THE PEOPLE - are doing to protect/preserve/restore true democracy in OUR United States of America - Social and Economic Justice for ALL citizens.
Thanks to everyone who showed up to protest the corrupt and unconstitutional actions of The Con Don and his Robber Baron brethren. WE THE PEOPLE are the only ones who can/will stop them and NOW is the time.
16
The fact that there are survivors of TWO gun massacres is truly chilling. We all try, try, try to maintain our sense that "it can't happen to us" - and remind ourselves that statistically it is highly unlikely. If we didn't believe this, how could we live, go to work, send our kids to school, etc.?
But what is this? Statistically, to me this is pretty hard to wrap my mind around.
Aside from the horror of the deaths, the trauma and grief of the survivors of these events, and their families, it really doesn't seem unreasonable anymore for any one of us to think "I could be next" or "my kids may be next" or "my workplace may be next."
"Next," like TOMORROW. The attacks come faster and faster.
3
The problem with "gun people" is that it's like a religious-social cult for them. So, their opinions on guns are irrational, senseless, and tribal, and it's likely the most important thing in their lives socially and politically so they don't give an inch. You can point out that a veteran, trained policeman showed up on the scene immediately (or several in Pittsburgh) and was shot and murdered to argue that clearly a good guy with a gun often doesn't stop a bad guy with one, but you'll get nowhere. Until more people take this issue as seriously at the ballot box as the gun people do, meaning making it a deal-breaking voting issue, and people socially shun NRA (and other more extreme gun group) members they know in their personal lives like they do other types of fringe groups, the situation will never get better.
17
I am positive that this is not a good sign. Living through one massacre is bad enough but two. Yet the NRA and the GOP will continue to say that guns don't kill people, people kill people, as if having the gun in hand is irrelevant. I think our founding fathers would be furious. I doubt that they ever envisioned such irresponsible use of guns or the idiocy of the NRA and the GOP. Nothing in the Second Amendment says it's fine to own as many guns as possible, kill others because they look at you cross eyed or are the wrong skin color.
The amendment refers to a militia, a well regulated militia at that. What is well regulated about what is going on now? Answer, nothing but the words from our hypocritical politicians who won't lose everything if they are injured by a gun. Thoughts and prayers doesn't undo it or fix it. Better laws or more stringent enforcement of the laws we have might.
16
What will it take for the lawmakers in this country to finally wake up to the scourge of gun violence plaguing us? How many times must we see the anguished faces and heartbreaking laments of mothers and fathers such as Cody Kaufman’s father trying to come to grips with the fact that he’ll never see his beloved son again?
Let’s hope this fresh crop of Democrats will be able to stand up to the fanatical part of the NRA. Let’s hope the House can work with the spineless, self-serving Republicans who wish to enrich themselves at the expense of social services. Maybe those tax cuts for the wealthy should require them to donate to veterans and mental health causes. Perhaps if our society had provided help and counseling for that angry veteran, young people like Cody would still be there for his Dad.
12
This has to stop. Agreed. But with Trump having veto power and he and the Republican senate in the back pocket of the NRA, we will endure countless more gun massacres. There should be no such term as "military grade" weapons when they are easily accessible by civilians. Astonishing how the NRA is omnipotent and how it hides behind the 2nd Amendment. We are the only democratic republic on earth in which a lobby group has a stranglehold on the people. Here, deaths by guns this year is in the many thousands with no reason to believe the carnage won't continue. Why is that not the case in Great Britain, Germany, Japan, Australia, Israel, and every other democratic republic? For that matter it's also not the case in non-democratic countries such as Russia and China. Why? Because unlike us, people in those countries are not permitted access to military grade weapons.
6
The time for gun control is now past. Strict gun control like a European country should have been done maybe 40 years ago and we wouldn't be having this problem. Now, thanks to LaPierre and the likes of Anton Scalia, we have more guns available than ever. We have been going in the wrong direction despite the deaths. Its amazing how in a country that can win a lawsuit over scalding coffee sold at a fast food store, couldn't stop this ridiculous problem.
So now, seems like we need multiple armed guards every where in public life or we all need to carry weapons like a siege -like society. Even guards often will run for cover as the shooting takes place as we saw in several recent shootings. Maybe metal detectors in front of every building and random metal detectors on street corners? I don't see any other solution as long as all these guns are out there. Will worsen over time as all these privately owned guns are handed down to kids over time. Guns don't spontaneously degrade over time, so the number of guns out there is constantly accumulating. We have been forced into an interesting experiment that may end very badly. If South Africa and places like Honduras are any indication, then please everyone understand that it was our fault for letting things get out of control. I don't want to be a pessimist, but my feeling is that its too late to turn back.
5
Taking action would require Mr. Trump to have a modicum of courage, empathy and character.
How likely is he to stand up to the NRA and do the right thing?
10
Trump would benefit from reading this editorial, but we know that’s not likely to happen. Could this well-reasoned piece be made into an entertaining little chat between two young female newscasters and televised?
6
I realize that its not particularly politically correct to remind the Editorial Board of the NY Times that California has about the strictest gun control laws in the nation. Somehow, none of these extreme laws stopped the shooter. So what, exactly, is the Ed Board suggesting? That someone pay attention and use the laws we have?
Perhaps if the rabid Left stopped demanding absolute solutions and instead asked that we have nationally-acceptable standards, a disgruntled CA resident would not have been able to obtain an extended magazine by shopping elsewhere. But nope. The left demands absolutism and the right responds with absolutism. Bring on the next mass shooting, if you please.
@Khal Spencer
You are wrong. The left is not demanding absolutism. There are people like me who feel we can and should do something to stop this, or at least make it happen less often. I am unwilling to see our children scared to go to school even in “safe” places like Los Alamos. I am looking for any solutions. I’d like to see our politicians be willing to do something. I’m open to any and all solutions that will fix this. I truly am.
However, do you know what I hear from the right wing politicians? Thoughts and prayers. Outside of that they do nothing. They were not elected to do nothing.
@SkL What I hear from the Left is a call for gun and magazine bans. California changes its gun laws faster than I change socks. The right digs in against reasonable compromise, as does the Left. I think if we kicked both the NRA and Everytown et al out of the room, maybe we could craft something acceptable to gun owners and ice out the extremes.
I think you are wrong about the right. They were elected to stop the left (and vice versa). We have to solve the culture wars if we are to look rationally at a lot of policies whether it be guns, health care, or marriage equality.
@Khal Spencer The 'rabid left' you speak of wants to reduce the horrific number of gun deaths annually. The rabid right does not. We know what side you're on now.
I think we need to pursue a different tact on gun control.
Why not encourage gun enthusiasts to organize mass shootouts between themselves three or four times a year, with big prizes for the last guys left standing? The last one of these of the year ought to be held in a giant stadium somewhere right along with the Super Bowl. The excitement would be enormous and would last for weeks. These events would give an enormous boost to the local tourism and funeral industries; and provide the NRA and gun opponents something they both could enthusiastically agree upon.
12
The sad conclusion one has to make after repeated political inaction following shootings at Sandy hook, Las Vegas, Columbine, Pittsburgh, Aurora, Parksville and many, many others is simply that the majority of Americans don’t care about their fellow citizens. This utter lack of consideration for their fellow countrymen’s welfare also goes a long way to explain why healthcare is considered to be just another commodity in the US.
2
I'm confused that the police and news media have been unable to identify a motive for the Las Vegas shooting and haven't released a motive for this shooting. Most shootings in the United States have obvious motives. Jealousy, drug dealers, robbery, suicide are obvious reasons for violence. Mental health may be a contributing factor but there are usually other, more immediate factors which result in the choice of targets. Even racially motivated shooting usually have a reason why the shooter chose one group of people to target over another. I would like to know what the specific motivation of these shooters was. I would also like the news media to stop bundling suicides, drug and gang turf disputes, domestic disputes, psychotic pharmaceutical drug induced rage outbursts, and domestic terrorism together as a single issue. We don't call for the abolition of cars because of accidents caused by underage drivers, drunk drivers, reckless drivers, impaired senior drivers, fleeing criminals, or intentional vehicular assaults. Suicide is not gun violence, it is suicide. For some reason both government officials and the news media don't want to give us clear insight into the motivations for this violence.
1
@Mike
We may never understand their motives, the shooters were all out of their minds. Crazy people behave irrationally and make senseless choices. Comparing car deaths with gun deaths is ridiculous, I need my car for many different reasons, but over the last 63 years I have never needed a gun, ever, and I believe most other citizens feel the same way.
@Stephe Chappell Maybe you never needed a gun because your neighbor had one. People should consider the consequences of the only people having guns being the rich, the police, the military and the criminals. That is the situation in Mexico. Would you really trade the situation in the United States with the situation in Mexico which has very strict gun control. Or maybe you think the United States is a magically different place from our southern neighbors.
When faced with a choice between doing what is right or appeasing the fringe right wing base, Trump always chooses the latter.
4
The NRA and gun fanatics carry on irrationally about their rights and their freedom.
Several decades ago, we had unlocked schools. We didn't need to go through metal detectors at concerts. We weren't subjected to searches at public events. We didn't have to worry about being shot in churches, temples, bars, concerts, schools, work, or anywhere else.
I travel to countries that have warnings about safety, and people ask me if I am afraid. Most of them have strict gun laws, and I tell them I am more likely to die from violence here at home. I no longer feel free or safe here. None of us are.
There are many countries where gun control has been proven to save lives.
We have let a few zealots take away our freedom.
2
Most of the gun fatalities in this country are suicides and not mass shootings. Look how deadly cars can be when used as weapons, and how deadly they are when just driving. The Boston Marathon bombers used pressure cookers. Anyone want to make those illegal? The point is, when people want to harm themselves or others they will use whatever is at hand. I once saw a bar fight where one patron went home and came back holding his lawnmower over his head blades running with the intention of dropping it on the head of the patron he was arguing with. We can not start outlawing every dangerous thing that people use to harm others.
1
@Mark
This argument is tiresome and ridiculous. The concern about gun violence is exactly that: about gun violence. Mass shootings do not happen with cars; they happen with guns that have been procured by people with mental health issues. It would be nice if our elected officials would grow a collective spine and address this issue, and it would be especially nice if gun advocates would stop lying about gun control and hyperventilating and screeching about their "rights" and "freedom" and make an attempt to help address a serious problem that is symptom of this country's impending descent into bestiality.
@Mark
The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a pressure cooker. If you could convince the gun rights advocates to buy your argument and trade in their firearms for pressure cookers and lawn mowers I would be thrilled. But something tells me that they won’t buy your argument.
Seriously, I would like to see the instance where you think a man armed with a lawn mower could kill 20 children and six adults at an elementary school. After all, nothing like that happens in countries with good gun control. Does that mean we just have more than our fair share of lunatics in the USA?
This is a tired argument. You can walk into a lamp post and die too. No one is suggesting other items can’t be dangerous. But the truth is that no mass killings have been accomplished with a food processor blade, for instance. I don’t send my kids to school and worry that a crazy dude with a lawnmower will show up.
Didn’t you read about the instance a year or two ago when a man with two knives raged into a school in the Netherlands? The kids beat him down with their backpacks and no one died.
@Mark
Can we please stop comparing all the of the different possible ways to die with gun deaths?
Cars, pressure cookers, and lawnmowers all have legitimate uses. Guns have no uses except for killing. Target shooters and hunters can use a bow and arrow. Guns are only needed by soldiers and police to defend our country. Yes, there are millions of guns, and it will take time to reduce their numbers. And yes, irrational people will continue to kill others with whatever is at hand. The status quo with guns is just unacceptable and the results are painfully predictable.
I think we need to pursue a different tact on gun control.
Why not encourage gun enthusiasts to organize mass shootouts between themselves three or four times a year, with big prizes for the last guys left standing. The last one of these of the year ought to be held in a giant stadium somewhere right along with the Super Bowl. The excitement would be enormous and would last for weeks. These events would give an enormous boost to the local tourism and funeral industries; and provide the NRA and gun opponents something they both could enthusiastically agree upon.
2
@A. Stanton Indeed. That would correct what I've always felt was one of the biggest problems with gun violence in America -- no where near enough of it is directed at the gunnuts.
@A. Stanton
George Carlin had a similar observation about Civil War re-enactors, that they should do the rest of us a favor and use real bullets.
What struck me about this piece was actually the photo of the flags at half mast around the Washington Monument that accompanied the piece. The terribly sad thought came to mind that perhaps we should just leave them at half mast all the time. Or, to be crass in aid of making a point, is there some kind of numeric theshold that warrants this response? More shootings, more mass/multiple shootings, seemingly almost every day. It is to weep.
2
2020 is too close for him to do anything to upset his base. Don't expect any help from him. He is far more concerned about winning than he is about any legacy. He's already a legend in his own mind.
2
We need to build up the public opinion to repeal 2nd amendment, as we did for 18th amendment (prohibition). Many even conservative supreme court judges like Warren Burger, suggested it some years ago.
3
How can the editorial board members put their names on this moonbeam? I suppose it may seem that there is no cost in publishing this but in fact it does have a cost. The cost comes in arguing that there is any evidence that Trump cares one bit about the lives lost. The board asks us to believe that he may have some potential love for his fellow man that just needs a spark from some external source to bring it to a blaze.
If he were to do that his adoring base would abandon him and he cannot risk that politically or emotionally.
1
The only way this even begins to come under control is if all high capacity magazines with more than six bullets are completely outlawed.
And all semi-automatic assault style weapons need to be banned or required to be "lockered" at a licensed gun range where they could be used by their owner but not taken from the premises.
Nobody needs to have a military style weapon in their home or available to take out into the public.
3
If the Republicans compromised on gun control, whatever would they do to stir up their base?
I am so exhausted with the empty offers of our thoughts and prayers! Neither our faith nor our wishes has stopped the killing.
I am so frustrated with the stand it is not the time to talk about gun laws after every massacre. At this rate there will never be a time. And why can't we talk of fwo different things at the same time? Life, no pun intended, comes at you with ten at a time!
I am so tired of the repeated talk about it's time to do something about gun violence! We are brutally reminded of it, time and time again.
Keep the flags at half mast until laws are passed and funded to enforce.
It is the time! Always.
2
Essentially, there is no evidence that gun problems will stop nor the myriad of other, massive problems America is confronted with which includes (not least of all) Climate Change. What was a good legislative idea in 1776, has morphed into an unrecognizable cyclops that fails to produce qualified leaders who assume the reins of power and act in the best interests of the country. Instead of formulating plans to address problems, our representatives only concern is their personal reelection and how much $$ they can raise. Trump is the perfect example of how rotten America's management system is. He had no qualifications for the job, never studied legislative processes in college, had a series of misadventures, bankruptcies and run-ins with the law, is NOT held to any of the lies he tells, and abuses the office of the president like none before him.
And he does so with complete impunity.
Our democracy was a fine experiment in 1776, but it's failed to adjust to new technology nor solve the problems that followed. Only a complete overhaul will prevent America from falling far behind China and eventually becoming a second rate power & I see absolutely no chance of that occurring.
Enjoy the final days as Mother Nature inflicts her wrath on an experiment gone hideously wrong.
2
Trump won't do a thing. He'll lie over and over again and humiliate the Democrats, and inadvertently himself, but ultimately it will be Congress that gets the job done.
2
Zero tolerance for those who have "scrapes" with the law. If the cops are called to settle a "domestic dispute" for example (can be 100 different reasons) --- and/or hate messages posted on cyber walls. Surrender your guns. Pipe dream to do this? It has to be done.
Yes...but it WON'T stop. There is no scenario where it will because the:
NRA controls members through a highly vocal and reactionary force of members who are vicious in the degree of their self-interest above that of other Americans.
Courts are increasingly swinging right, and gun control is off the table for all conservatives in the judicial sphere. Courts have reinterpreted SCOTUS guidance from at least the 1970's which said 2nd Amendment was in the context of militias (e.g. state troops)...to reframe it as individual rights.
Touchstone nature of the 2nd Amendment debate (like abortion)...a 'good' conservative will support it blindly.
Progressives misunderstand the issue conservatives have. There will never be enough bloodshed to justify gun control. This is a 'principle of freedom' not a public health issue. Even though, of course, it is MOST DEFINITELY a public health issue.
Massacres are a small part of the problem. They really are, even though they are terrible. Most deaths are caused by misuse of handguns in domestic disputes and similar circumstances. The solution to that is LIMITING GUNS. PERIOD. That will never happen. Never. Not without force.
Conservatives who support this rag of an amendment are going to be with us politically for the rest of our lives. They are a 1 issue bunch. There is no political expediency to dropping the hammer on them. So those who support the 2nd Amendment in Congress will take the safe route, regardless of casualties
I've always said its too late to enact gun legislation. There are by estimate 320 million firearms in this country already. And there's no chance of repealing the 2nd amendment. But there is one perfect but tough solution. Create very, very strict laws about purchasing ammo. You can't kill people without bullets. And you're not restricting the right of the people to bear arms. And even if the gun nuts stock up before the laws are passed, eventually they'll run out of ammo. If they purchase ammo illegally they can be arrested and prosecuted. Why hasn't anyone pursued this option?
3
@skeptik2 ammunition is part of an "arm". Restrictions on ammunition are precisely the same, constitutionally speaking, as restrictions on guns and would be subject to the same 2A challenges.
No gun control will take place today, tomorrow, or in my lifetime. As long as NRA is so powerful, and so many elected officials are bought by NRA to do their dirty deeds, no gun control will be put in place. These lives are not important to them, after all, who cares about some young college kids, or an officer who gave his life to protect them? Our government doesn’t care and that’s a reality.
1
For those who have witnessed or survived a shooting, or keep the company of those who have...
The cause of PTSD has a lot to do with the aftermath of a traumatic event... what happens after the event rather than the event itself. For eye witnesses, or people easily triggered because of their own history, it's critical to learn about trauma first aid, which is based on solid neuroscience.
This includes not watching news constantly (avoid exposing yourself to repeated images) and - this is important - not re-telling the story repeatedly without interruption. The more a neural network fires in the brain, the deeper and long-lasting it becomes. Repeating the story is like walking the same path over and over. So if you're with someone who's retelling the story of a traumatic event, interrupt them occasionally to let them know they're safe now, that they survived, that you are here with them. Give them a hug, ask them to notice their surroundings or feel their feet.
Among others, Somatic Experiencing and EMDR are two very effective trauma treatments. I wish every parent, teacher and medical professional had some basic training in attachment and emotional first aid to reduce trauma's effects. Here are a couple of essential first aid kits:
https://francescaredden.com/emotional-first-aid-trauma-prevention-every-parent-needs-know/
http://www.ginaross.com/images/emotional_first_aid_brief_guide.pdf
Stop waiting for the Federal government to lift even a finger on gun legislation. Just stop, already.
Nothing legislatively is going to happen at the federal level. Hello, Sandy Hook. We need to stop being delusional. Nothing happened at the federal level after Sandy Hook, and certainly, nothing will happen now. But, Connecticut did pass gun stricter legislation. The states must lead the way as our federal government including the Senate and House Dems are completely gutless on guns. Even if something passes in Washington it will be lame, really, really, lame, and will not stop the killing. What would be the point of passing gun legislation if the legislation that is passed is so lame that it does not stop the killing?
Why not go after guns the way pro-life movement goes after legislation intended to shutdown abortion clinics? Pass laws that make it very difficult and/or prohibitively costly for gun shops and shows to operate or sell certain types of guns, or manufacturers to produce guns? Etc. States need to get more creative and lead the way. States have the authority to pass laws to regulate, and tax including guns.
Yes, I would prefer effective national legislation, but that is not going to happen. Just like Massachusetts with RomneyCare the federal government needed a blueprint for ObamaCare, we need states to provide the blueprints for federal gun legislation. Are you listening, California?
1
This is a flight of fantasy. The House and the President will not work together on this or any other issue. This is the typical talk after each massacre and then forgotten. Another issue is the NRA. Although they claim to advocate for gun owners and the 2nd amendment they really are a lobby for gun manufacturers which provide their funds. Can't go to a concert, school, the movies, worship, open concert, dancing, bar, restaurant, etc... Afghanistan may be safer.
No one is gullible enough to believe that President Trump and the Republicans are willing to work with the Democrats to pass tougher gun laws.
America will never pass effective gun control laws as long as legislators are financially supported by the gun makers - period. The first step to curtailing this perpetual slaughter of innocent souls must be to institute a national ban on any and all lobbying and political contributions by the NRA. Cut off those monies and you eliminate the incentive for your politicians to sell their souls, and those of their constituents. Only then will America have any hope of initiating stricter gun control laws.
Do not expect Trump to do anything that requires courage or decency.
1
"But clearly the impulse to do more lies somewhere inside of him, perhaps waiting for the right political moment to arise." You're still expecting something good from trump? Really? Even political expediency has no potential to dig even a grain of good from his soul.
My wife's daughter has lived through two school shootings. First as a student at Simon's Rock College on December 14, 1992 where her advisor and a best friend were killed. Then again as an adjunct professor at Northern Illinois University on February 14, 2008.
1
Yes, we have to stop it.
But, realize, we cannot stop it.
But we can reduce it. New York City didn't end murders, but it reduced it from 2200+ deaths in 1990 to under 400 in 2017. And 2018 is tracking to be still under 400.
Overall rifle deaths (which includes AR-15-type weapons) are around 300/year, out of the 36,000 annual gun deaths. Yeah, it grabs our attention but an "assault weapon" ban won't change anything. (technically, an assault rifle is capable of fully automatic, not just semi-automatic fire).
And inner city, particularly ghetto, mass shootings don't get the attention like Thousand Oaks, Squirrel Hill, and Parkland do, which they should as well.
Sensible gun laws need to be ones that WORK, not ones that make us feel good. Thorough background checks probably wouldn't have stopped Ian David Long, or Steven Paddock, but they could have stopped Dylann Roof, Nikolas Cruz, and Deven Kelly.
Background checks, root cause mitigation, suicide awareness and prevention, properly designed and unified databases all can reduce that 36,000 dramatically.
Ian David Long DID have a legally purchased Glock .45. But the incident that wasn't deemed enough for 3 days of observation SHOULD have been sufficient to demand a temporary surrender of the Glock.
Oh, and while the Glock was purchased legally, possession of the extended magazine is a felony under California law, as it is in NJ and most of the North East. It was NOT a "Legal weapon".
@Dadof2 -- unfortunately the bill that would have made that magazine illegal was appealed by you-know-who, and it has been tied up in the courts for more than two years. So at this time, that magazine was legal in CA.
1
Trump said about the synagogue shooting that there should have been a security guard. Well, with this shooting, it shows that this is wishful thinking. And it applies to any security guard situation, and I include those guards at schools, because they will be the first ones shot. Security guards at outdoor gatherings can’t prevent shooting from a distance, like the Las Vegas tragedy.
So then we’re left with the current NRA solution: everyone needs a gun, ie, only an armed good guy can stop an armed bad guy. This was originally meant to handle criminals and gang members, and now it has been expanded to include the crazies, the off their rockers, loose cannons.
Well, will that work? Not in the outdoor gatherings, obviously. And due to the new powerful military style weapons, the AR-15 rifle, large magazine a modestly armed civilian won’t stand a chance. They would also need to be armed with the same weapon. And while we’re at it, might as well go full military style, with bullet proof vests and helmet. That’s where we would be headed. The ultimate NRA Trump Republican Second Amendment loonies solution.
The NRA is the problem. Five million members hold 325 million Americans hostage by buying off Republicans who care only about money- mr Trump being one of them. Most Americans want responsible gun laws but the NRA & the gun manufacturers don’t. Nothing will happen until the NRA is held accountable.
2
This subject is coming over and over but nothing really happens to avoid these massacres...unfortunately there is a deep gun culture and tradition in the US and it will take a long time to erase it from the minds of the new generations. Most of my wife family parents in the US think that they must have a gun at home for their safety and they are teaching their kids how to shoot!
This is a wedge issue. The goal is not to fix it, but exploit it.
So sure, the Democrats could create some gun controls laws - even a sane package that protects rights while increasing safety - but the bill will die in the Senate. The Democrats could pass it monthly, sort of like repealing the ACA, sort of like a ceremony.
Everyone will get madder and in 2020 there will be people who vote solely because of it. Given that the States will most likely gut abortion laws and the Court is likely to allow it, guns make a good wedge issue to really hang on to.
So expect nothing but lights and mirrors.
We are in a position to do something sensible. Expect nothing but bitter fighting.
And in Poughkeepsie NY there's been four separate shooting incidents within one week. But a plethora of 'Repeal the Safe Act' lawn signs still stand.
1
@DC -- I have reason to drive into the more rural parts of Saratoga County frequently. While Saratoga Springs is hip & liberal, the county overall is Trump country.
For years i drove by an old farmhouse with "STOP OBAMA'S NY-SAFE ACT" crudely painted in very large letters along a wooden fence.
Last year I noticed that the sign had been painted over and the place was starting to be spruced up ... I assume it changed hands.
1
It would be nice to think that there lies within Trump a shred of decency. It's up to him to prove that by his actions.
Donald Trump says a lot of things. Unfortunately, none of it's ever true.
The truth is, Donald Trump, the GOP, and the NRA have all wed themselves to the idea that everyone in this country needs to be armed - all the time.
Their position is, and always has been, that it's these victims fault they got slaughtered. And that the only real solution to gun violence, is more gun violence.
Their answer is - escalation. More guns. More powerful guns. More bullets. More bump stocks. More silencers. More concealed carriers. More police. More security guards. More armed teachers. More "active shooter" programs. Etc, etc, etc.
In other words, their "solution" is - more of the problem.
And that makes about as much sense as addressing the killing of 20 first graders with a law that makes it harder for states to share information on gun owners.
In short, they are all utterly insane. And they have all, all of them, abetted this mass-murder. And the future mass-murders that will undoubtedly occur tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that. Week after week. Year after year. Decade after decade.
Until the day comes when people of conscience decide to stop them in the voting booth.
Everyone who voted Republican on Tuesday - there is blood on your hands. I hope your proud of yourselves.
Mass shootings. How do we stop them? There are so many guns out there, so many really powerful ones. And there seems to also be so many bad ones out there, and I don’t mean criminals or gang members, who have them. Crazy ones, disturbed ones, loose cannon ones.
With the new military industrial complex these tragedies can’t be stopped. By new military industrial complex I mean the sinister brotherhood of the NRA, Trump, gun industry, Republican Party, and Second Amendment false interpreters.
The most logical thing would be to shore up the FBI background check system to include all gun purchases. But that wouldn’t have caught most, if any, of the mass killers. AR-15 rifles, large magazines, Glock pistols, bump fire stocks, maybe silencers, our society is swamped with weaponry.
The most obvious thing would be for people to alert the police of any one who doesn’t seem to be normal, and then the police to check if that person owns any guns, and if they do, then take away their guns and make sure they can’t get new ones. To check if they have any guns they would need to get a search warrant. These efforts, and even the other common sense ones that I haven’t mentioned, won’t happen because of the aforementioned new military industrial complex.
There is no limit to the number and the frequency of mass shootings. No matter what their location, no matter how many prayers, will change things.
For my alternative solution: ban mass gatherings. See my other earlier comment.
The gun control you rightly call for will not happen because the opposition to control has nothing to do with guns or politics or cultural divides: it is all about the deep masculine panic that lies at the heart of the male American soul.
1
Trade in your guns and we will give you a big truck to compensate for that shortcoming. Sounds like a plan!
"...for his part, Mr. trump has been erratic..." just about sums it up...
The web headline for this editorial reads:
"There Are Now Americans Who Have Lived Through Two Gun Massacres"
That doesn't state the situation as strongly as reality. One of the *VICTIMS* in the Thousand Oaks mass shooting was a *SURVIVOR* of the Las Vegas mass shooting.
This is the country we have become.
The NRA was on the ballot on Tuesday and it lost. People are fed up with that organization and the craven politicians that value NRA dollars over people's lives. The NRA is a paper tiger and should be ignored as we go forward.
And politicians who continue to do no more than sending thoughts and prayers better be preparing their resumes, they will be voted out.
Why in the name of all that is holy would you forget that trump is Lucy with the football and the country is Charlie Brown. trump won't ever do anything that is decent, right, or moral because he's simply incapable of it. He says whatever he thinks is politically expedient at the time and then does whatever suits him and only him. He feels nothing for any of these victims. I'm not sure he'd be able to feel anything even if it was his children or grandchildren among the victims.
Meh.
You can pass all the gun control laws you want, but that's just politicians talking. We need to really solve this by repealing the Second Amendment so that we can enact comprehensive legislation that makes sense.
There is, I suspect, growing sentiment for repeal of the Second Amendment. Gun owners are in the minority. Do the math.
Yes and Yes . Morally obliged to do so
If it reduces shootings such as in 1000 Oaks us another question. CA has already the most stringent gun legislation in the US.
A more effective step would be for the Media NOT to publish the names of the mentally ill that commit these murders.
In their twisted mind, that wants to bring to National attendance a real or imaginary grievance, that is an incentive
Time for the Editorial Board to act
Wake up. Trump will never buck the NRA on this. A wasted plea in this editorial. If anything he will only more solidly support the NRA as these attacks continue and we move toward 2020.
Yesterday, I read a comment, "Guns aren't the problem. Humanity is the problem." OK. So, don't give us humanities guns.
1
The NRA and its scared-of-their-own-shadows devotees are always railing on about tyranny, freedom and rights, but we are in a situation in this country where the majority of Americans' rights and freedoms are subject to the tyranny of a selfish minority that places its wants before anything and everything else, including our children. Think about the absurdity of it for a second: Active shooter drills are part of every American child's elementary school experience. I think media should start publishing the photos of mass shooting victims so instead of abstract numbers we can all see the bloody carnage these selfish, deeply irresponsible people are party to. Expose the horror and force our so-called leaders to act in the best interests of the majority.
1
The only thing we learn from history, is that we don't learn from history.
1
Just now you realize this?
The daughter of lifelong friends was at the Las Vegas shooting in October with 3 close friends, celebrating an engagement - that friend one was killed.
Our friend's daughter was also a student at UCSB in May 2014 - a couple were killed on her sorority's front lawn.
Trump and the House Democrats?
Trump switched into survival mode a long time ago.
He does not care about anyone but himself and the Republican congressmen know that and have nothing to worry about until 2020.
Dear NY Times Editorial Board - I would think by now you’d be more aware of the impact of false equivalencies, “If Pelosi and Trump are sincere,” indeed! We now the Democrats can never partisan from the 8 years of the Bush presidency. The potential lack of sincerity is only on one side. Also, when has Trump spent his own capital of any kind, he only knows how to borrow and bankrupt his lender, and that’s what he’s doing and will do to the Republican Party and the country. You normalize him as a politician at your and our peril.
Elections have consequences, the country elects numerous Republicans that are unashamed of their adoration of the NRA and their money. Too many voters refuse to see the damage by weapons and some nonsense about the misinterpreted 2nd Amendment. Supported by the infamous Supreme Court, where justice dies.
America is awash in assault weapons and remains unable to connect the dots with mass shootings, that deny those in the wrong place at the wrong time, a right to life.
Too many sound bytes that is disconnected from reality and lack the information to discern the truth from the cacophony of trump's America. It is uncertain, if America will ever regain it's sanity and how much damage will occur. Elections have consequences, indeed!
Trump "said he wanted tougher gun laws" -- but why should we believe him?
He said that while sitting with a whole circle of Parkland students. Everybody knows he says what he thinks a given audience (unless they are members of the press or the Congressional Black Caucus or the Mayor of San Juan, or other "enemies of the people") wants to hear. He wants any audience to love him and think he's the answer to their problems.
It didn't last though. And neither have his handful of fulsome overtures to Nancy Pelosi. As soon as he is no longer in the presence of this person to whom he has decided to make nice, he reverts to type: belligerent, erratic, mendacious, preening, and utterly incapable of actual good-faith negotiation.
Also, he is reflexively attuned to positions that involve bullying and macho posing, and utterly addicted to the ego boost he gets from the adoring looks and the chanting and cheering of his base. That works every time; it's a guaranteed high. Trying something out of character is just too risky. He won't do it.
Can we do better than this?
Yes,
universal background checks
red flag gun laws
ban assault weapons
dealing with mental health issues
treating gun ownership with responsibility
There are just two simple things this president could embrace to win the hearts of Democrats, be posthumously revered in oversized statuary, and maybe even snag a much coveted Nobel Prize.
As preposterous as it might seem, the Donald could flip on Climate Change and Gun Safety. He's a master flip-flopper who could claim an 11th hour epiphany and change of heart on these two issues without losing much of his base, a shrinking minority in any case.
Casting the nature of his revelation on guns and climate as some kind of divine intervention would play well with the base, and might even help save our President's sullied soul on Judgement Day.
How about we take a look at the extremely violent and graphic video “games” children grow up with today. It seems like every televised sporting event is interspersed with ads for games that offer multiple ways to kill your opponent, for points, the only repercussion being you lose if you don’t kill enough.
The predilection for low hanging fruit grows tiresome. It appears that Liberals will never really "get it" and exist primarily to make loud uncomfortable noises (and print endless rants) when anything happens they don't like. All the emotion and melodrama that makes for absolutely fabulous media interest and ratings unfortunately rarely solves problems. You've got three choices: hue and cry(the current approach), go full Voldemort draconian (even with the magic, good luck), or look at statistics (gets slippery quick). The first two are fool's errands. The last requires too much patience and attention and doesn't sit well with the media so it is predictably ignored. Urban gun violence (predominantly pistols) and suicide (again, predominantly pistols) should be be the focus.
Probably Trump's most avid supporters are a large percentage of America's gun nuts. This in itself is illogical. A Google search of Trump + Guns produced no instance of Trump having any thought toward guns other than how he can manipulate the issue to his political gain.
So far, Trump's expertise as an accomplished liar, has prevented people from seeing what a true phony he really is. When the curtain eventually gets pulled back, Trump's fall will be sudden and fast, like one of those avalanches you hear about in the Rockies.
As a deputy sherriff said after the Bakersfield shooting said....."this is the new normal". Very sad. And all our bought and paid for representatives can do is offer "thoughts and prayers".
I agree with the board that Trump may well be the most viable president to tackle this issue, oddly enough. He has his base absolutely hypnotized, and if he said that we need tough gun control, and FOX aped it, I bet the base would jump on board.
Personally, I'd like to see a licensing structure similar to autos. You should have to pass a test (written and field) to purchase/own a firearm. You should have to register the weapon, just like a car.
The 2nd amendment quite clearly starts with: "A well regulated Militia..." REGULATED being the operative word here.
Seriously, this gun violence is insane, and our leadership is failing us.
An obvious ploy to distract Democrats from going for Trump’s jugular. Trump will never agree to any gun control. He would lose his base.
The Tines Editorial Board is delusional if the think trump would support common sense gun control laws based on previous statements in support of them. trump has espoused opinions on all sides of every issue. His words are cheap. Follow his past actions. For example, he told Dreamers that he would support them... and then didn't. she met with Al Gore about Climate Change and then pulled out of the treaty and is in full support of burning more coal. And yes he supported more gun safety measures. How hard did he push for that?
It will take gutless politicians to grow a spine. It will take American citizens voting out politicians bought by the NRA. It will take an investigation by Mueller to determine how much Russian money has flowed through the NRA and Fox News to turn Americans against each other.
How many times has he said that after a mass shooting then as soon as the NRA calls, backs off? The Republican Senate will never pass any law curtailing any gun rights, so the president is perfectly safe saying this without having to do anything. Not that he actually meant it; just another platitude forgotten the moment it spills out.
Forget it. The insane posse led by Wayne LaPierre will always posit that their right to own as many guns as possible will always trump your grieving over a relative killed by handgun or assault weapon.
The recent Times article on the NRA magazine was very informative about the politicization of gun culture in our country.
Once again, Republicans will do nothing. Between ignoring the need for gun control and for changes in laws and behavior to address climate change, Republicans have truly become a deadly danger for America.
The last president to pass federal gun-control legislation was Bill Clinton in the early 1990s. Brady Bill. Assault Weapons ban. Clinton fought hard, he negotiated, he knew the statistics, and he paid for it. Democrats lost seats in the midterms.
So now we’re supposed to imagine that Donald Trump, the hollow Macy’s Day Parade balloon president, is about to stop bobbling in all directions, leaking hot air, and come down to the ground, set his cleats in the field, and prepare to TACKLE this serious and bloody problem?
Nobody tackled it after Columbine. Nobody tackled it after Sandy Hook.
The NRA would puncture Trump if he tried.
The fantasy that Donald Trump would risk the support of his gun-owning voters and the NRA for the safety of Americans is ludicrous.
He’ll be out looking for burgers.
Nice try at using psychology to persuade Trump. But on the subject of gun control, he is hopeless.
After all, just days ago, when innocents were mowed down in Temple, Trump's knee jerk response was remarking that their should have been a gun wielder inside. If Trump used even that tragedy as PR for the gun lobby, he is beyond reach.
People, who own guns, should insist that they be registered to the owners. They should push the NRA to get out of the political lobbying business and instead focus exclusively on education and gun safety. It's going to take gun owners, who love America and its people. It's going to take a united effort by all citizens to insist that guns should not be treated like toys, like gun-candy that offers macho bragging rights. Guns should be treated with respect and thought of as tools. Every gun should be registered to their owner, who has a license to own firearms. PERIOD. You really only need one handgun or rifle to protect your home. And you certainly do not want to fire an assault weapon inside your house! Those guns turn bones and muscles into ground hamburger meat and explode inside victims' heads and bodies. Who wants to destroy their home with that kind of fire power? No one. They are deadly gun-candy and they are often the guns of choice for immature and mentally ill people.
Trump changes his mind every nanosecond. Don't believe the canard he cares about gun control, or anything that doesn't directly benefit him.
I did notice fewer politicians offering "thoughts and prayers". I guess thats progress.
1
"And the N.R.A., which remains a rich, powerful force in our political system, certainly intends to keep it that way."
The NRA is "rich" perhaps in part because of Russian money. Vladimir believes that they can help bring down America through internecine bloodshed. Why doesn't the FBI investigate this potentially dangerous relationship between the NRA and the former KGB chief?
1
What happened to the express "well regulated militia" provision of the 2nd Amendment ?
HOW TO STOP THESE MASS SHOOTINGS
If you leave Target without paying, does an alarm go off when you leave the store? What triggers the door sensor?
If you are sitting in your office, how would you be able to keep a gunman wanting to kill you, from entering your office?
By having a sensor over your doorway which is able to sense a metal object like a gun, and the sensor locking your door while the gunman is outside.
And if the gunman waited for someone to come out of your office so that he could quickly enter, the door would lock and that person would not be able to leave and the gunman would not get an entry.
Meanwhile, a camera located outside your door activates when the sensor goes off, and you can see who is outside.
If the temple in Pittsburg had this sensor, no one would have been killed.
@Murray Veroff -- a common pocket-amount of change is as much metal as a Glock. A laptop computer is much more.
This is an entirely unworkable general solution UNLESS all guns could be tagged with passive RFID devices that were very difficult to remove without disabling the gun. This is technically feasible -- but it's sure not going to happen.
1
Yes, showing infignation, even anger, towards the current abuse by the NRA and it's captive cowards (republicans, even Trump), if honestly felt, must be followed by action. Otherwise, the hypocritical oratory 'our hearts are with you and we are praying for you' are not only useless but an insult to sanity. Why should we keep doing what we are doing (especially the nasty insistence in the 'free' acquisition of military style weapons for our 'defense') and expect good results? Have we forgotten the 'golden rule'? As long as we are not willing to tackle this awful, repeated ad nauseum, killing spree, we shall remain part of the problem...instead of being part of the solution. So, what is it going to be? Do we have the 'ganas' to change, follow the civilized conduct of most other countries?
Trump with the vocabulary of a 5th grader and behavior of a street hooligan, is not qualified to be the president.
however, with 40% Americans still support him, impeachment may not be smart politically smart.
BTW, Pence may be worse.
1
It's the nature of hope to spring eternal. And if Trump was anything like the genius he claims to be he would gladly seize this opportunity to rise above his base, the vile NRA and even, if necessary, his Russian controller, and work closely with the Democrats and rational Republicans to put strict controls on the circulation of guns and ammunition as a first step in addressing this scourge of heavily armed and unhappy men running rampant in public places in dumb but deadly protest of the total irrelevance and uselessness to society of their untenably miserable, woe begotten little lives.
Trump views himself as the ultimate deal maker. He is known as a transactional President. Not a long term strategic thinker. He needs to change his slogan. Make America safe again. This is the moment Mr President. You are bigger and badder than the NRA. Safer and sensible gun control laws could be the Trump legacy. An historic President making history.
It appears impossible for Donald Trump to "do the right thing." He only does things which make him richer, as his history illustrates convincingly. Figure out some way for Traitor Trump to benefit financially...
"This has to stop."
I wish it would stop. But there isn't any reason to suggest it will stop any time soon. Americans will continue to be appalled and terrorized by these shootings, but nothing will change. It's not that I'm a born pessimist. I just don't see any action being taken to effectively address the issue.
1
Gun massacres will stop when Americans and their "elected" representatives in the U.S. Congress and state legislatures finally agree that human lives are more important than gun ownership. The NRA and the politicians who receive large amounts of money to support the Gun Industry should not be allowed to decide who shall live and who shall die at the hands of gun owners regardless of who they are. There is no legitimate purpose for private gun ownership in the United States of America. Guns are meant to murder (and maybe to defend against murderers). So as the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution states: Guns should be legitimate only in the hands of "A Well-Regulated Militia" which strictly interpreted should include police and military, but not individuals. Hunting wild animals even for food is a quaint relic of an earlier time. There is no legitimate place for guns in the hands of individuals not acting as part of a well-regulated militia. It is clearly thus stated in the Constitution although misinterpreted by those who distort the constitution for their own reasons.
11
The NRA just told doctors to "stay in their lane" and stop writing articles about the gun epidemic.
Some of the doctors' responses to the NRA are at the link below.
Here is an example:
"My lane as Pediatric ICU physician: why don't YOU try being the person who has to go into a room & tell a family the worst possible news they are ever going to hear because the damage their kid came in with was beyond our saving? Not only is this OUR lane, YOU ARE IN IT. #GetOut"
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/nra-tweet-anti-gun-doctors-stay-in-your-lane_us_5be4ba32e4b0769d24cb1cef?
12
None of universal background checks, raising the minimum age, or eliminating bump stocks, would have stopped Ian Long (Thousand Oaks shooter).
There are only two means of regulation that could have:
1. Very strict laws that would take gun rights and confiscate guns (this latter step would require aggressive registration so that one could be sure guns could be confiscated) for minor non-criminal acting out:
"Deputies were called to his home last year because of a domestic dispute, where he was "somewhat irate and acting irrationally," said Ventura County Sheriff Geoff Dean.
However, after mental health professionals observed Long, they decided not to pull him in for further observation, Dean said.
Neighbors called to complain of loud noises earlier this year that sounded like he was damaging the house, neighbor Tom Hanson told local TV stations KTLA and KTTV. "
Or ...
2. Move to gun laws like that of Australia or even the UK where handguns are difficult to obtain, and all semi-automatic guns are particularly difficult to obtain. In either of these countries individuals like Mr. Long cannot pass the required background investigation(s) and testing to obtain guns more dangerous than a bolt-action rifle or break-action shotgun.
I favor moving to gun regulation like Australia's ... but I think it inconceivable this could be enacted by the incoming Congress.
7
As long as politicians are allowed to accept large donations from the NRA and other pro-gun organizations, they will not pass comprehensive gun controls. The simple fact is that they value this money and their positions more than they value people.
4
California has seen a good share of gun violence despite very strong laws controlling guns and who has them. When obvious methods still allow these terrible incidents, it keeps shifting the objectives of those pressing for gun control up against the idea that people have any rights to possess guns. That is the line that nearly all claim that need not be crossed. But that argument is untrue. That is the entire point. Can anyone be trusted with any gun?
Probably but some cannot. Eliminating all private gun ownership is the simple solution that many countries use. The problem in this country is that we have lived with a huge proportion of people with a huge proportion of guns but gun violence is in that context extremely rare. The vast number of guns amongst a vast number of people increases the risks enormously but the mere presence of any gun in any one person’s possession being used to do harm is remote. This makes the simple solution possible only by suspending civil liberties and actively confiscating all guns. That won’t happen.
1
@Casual Observer -- no country, not even Japan, eliminates "all private gun ownership."
You engage in the logic of "Zeno's paradox" (that is not a paradox).
Australia makes it relatively easy to get bolt-action rifles or break-action shotguns; it is possible but more difficult to get handguns. Gun murder rates in Australia are less than a tenth of those in the USA, and there has not been a mass murder since the stricter gun regulations went into effect.
1
@Lee Harrison
I will accept that what you say is true. It's not relevant. The Second Amendment has no relevance to using firearms for hunting, sport, nor managing with wild animals. It's about having an armed citizenry which facilitates maintaining well regulated militias. That is the central issue to be resolved. It also indicates that gun control for the purpose of public safety could be applied legally.
"A well-regulated militia..." That is the root cause of the problem. The state and federal governments have abdicated their duty to assure that the citizen militia is "well-regulated". The focus has been on the hardware, a.k.a. an arsenal not the militia which is made up of people. It is the people who have to be well-regulated.
Beginning with article XIII of the Virginia Declaration of Rights it was understood that those arms bearing citizens needed to be under the jurisdiction of the civil government. Unfortunately, all the towns, counties, states and federal authorities abandoned the citizen militia in favor of a professional police force and national army. Yet, the citizens keeping and bearing arms persists but is all but unregulated.
We need more than "background checks" that allow people to remain unseen by their fellow citizens with no responsibilities to the community or allegiance to the civil authorities.
It is well past time to re-establish a state level citizen militia complete with screening, regulation, training, qualification, and inspection as well as regular drills where many of the malefactors will be noticed before they act out.
We will never end violence but we can, as the Second Amendment demands, establish a well-regulated militia instead of the unregulated mess we have today.
3
What we need is a coalition of small to mid-size local and state wide organizations, including Churches, healthcare providers who treat gunshot injuries, child protection agencies, social welfare groups, and individuals, all of whom could band together and take on the NRA. Am I dreaming ? With enough determination good things can happen.
@Lee Everytown for Gun Safety
California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. It seems that they were more of a bunch of "feel good" regulations that didn't do any good in this case.
4
@Richard B
The "feel good" regulation that, perhaps, might have made a difference in this case was the California law and proposition passed that would have made high capacity magazines illegal. The law is held up in court by gun "rights" advocates.
25
@Richard B
You can't say they did not do any good. At least he did not have an AR-15 and there is a good chance the California law prevented him from getting one.
111
“California has some of the strictest gun laws...”. That statement is of little significance. Individual states enacting tough gun laws are of little significance when one can freely cross state borders. Anyone can buy an assault rifle or high capacity magazine in another state with more lenient or no gun laws and easily drive into California. The gun control issue is a national issue that requires national legislation from Washington. Let’s hope Trump and Pelosi are not blowing smoke. I won’t hold my breath.
31
This does not have to stop. And it won't.
Simply put - the electorate in aggregate doesn't care. For all the media noise people are not voting gun control. Not in the mid-terms just not; not in any other election.
A little perspective: America takes 70,000 or so overdose deaths per year and nobody seems to mind all that much. And 40,000 deaths in traffic a year are a total non-event in politics. Nobody cares. The number of mass shooting homicides is far lower. In a statistical sense, the effect on the average American is about zero. The ordinary person is not going to get shot. If the US can tolerate heavy death tolls from cars and guns then it can - and will - learn to live with the lesser tolls from monthly shooting rampages.
3
The Democrats in the House should pass legislation that the Americans want and make the GOP Senate drop the ball. Americans can then see what they are missing out on. Shore up the ACA, Ban bumpstocks. Pass universal background checks and make sure people can't by ammo with a huge number of rounds.
74
@Sasha Absolutely! Now is the time to push for everything we need and force the Senate to vote against us. Even if they refuse to allow the vote it needs to go down on their watch. They aren't protesting gun rights they are ensuring future gun deaths to protect their financiers. Corruption is preventing us from making the society in which we want to live.
4
@Sasha: Sorry, you don't get to put the ball in the Democrats' court so easily, to use your metaphor. Let's see what the Gutless Old Party comes up with as a 'solution.' Give them enough rope to hang themselves with, if I may use a different metaphor.
Donald Trump by himself cannot change legislation on guns. Congress would have to write the legislation and Congress won't have the cojones to do it.
4
@Stephen Kurtz
Stranger things have happened. Don’t give up hope. With enough pressure from constituents. . ..,.....maybe.
To those who say the American people do not deserve this slaughter, I say this is exactly what we deserve. Polls show that an overwhelming majority of Americans favor stricter gun regulation, yet we return the same bought-and-paid-for members of congress to their seats. How stupid can we be, and how bad does the slaughter have to become before we recognize the problem and fix it, once and for all? Just how bad does everything have to get to wake this nation up? And will that be so bad that it will do the country in? I fear the answers. This is entirely on us, and it's up to us to fix it, as it has always been. Because this is turning into a mad house.
15
The issue is that people who support more restrictions don't necessarily vote on the issue. Contrast that with the pro-gun nuts who vote ONLY on the issue.
The level of intensity on the pro-restrictions side would need to match or exceed that of the gun nuts. I sadly do not see that happening.
What will “tightening” background checks on gun purchases do exactly? Does the government do background checks on someone who is buying a car if they have mental issues, have a DUI or any other infractions and intervene in the purchase?
As far as I know, no.
To apply the same logic to guns is just...not right. The only real solution is to treat gun like cars. Required personal license, unique gun registration, and liability insurance. Any law-abiding gun owner should have no problem with this.
11
A car is built for transporting, and, as with ladders made for climbing, bicycles made for transporting and fun, cooking equipment...and pretty much anything else you can name, accidents sometimes happen. Banning them would make life more difficult, etc. than before they were invented. Guns are made for one thing only...killing. Restricting them would save lives.
"like raising the minimum purchase age to 21 from 18 or banning bump stocks, which convert guns to automatic weapons, could be revisited as well."
Bump stocks do not actually "convert" any weapon. They only "mimic" the automatic rate of fire of certain weapons.
"Converting" a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic is a federal felonious offense with severe punishments.
I know it's a finer point of semantics but we as a nation can't agree on where to go unless we have a shared meaning of the language and facts.
2
@Jeffrey Prier
We don't have to argue semantics. High capacity magazines are not compatible with any sport use of a weapon.
@Jeffrey Prier. A bump stock, competently used, can make a semi-automatic fire several hundred rounds a minute. I can 'mimic' an automatic weapon by saying 'bang bang bang bang' as fast as I can. Several hundred rounds a minute is not mimicking if you are in the firing line. It's real.
The Times presents a logical case for why Donald Trump might finally support some common-sense gun control legislation. But it rests on a shaky premise: that Trump cares about the loss of human life. I suspect that his concern in that regard is limited to members of his immediate family. So, any political impulse he might have to do something about this actual American carnage will be, like most of the thoughts that pass through his head, short-lived.
18
This happened in California where all the gun safety measures that are offered by gun control advocates are in effect. Assault weapons are not legal to buy, extended magazines not legal, background checks mandatory, all guns sold must be registered at the state level, and all who sell guns must be licensed. The gun side of the equation is addressed strongly. Now it’s time to focus upon the people, those like this man who are not legally prevented from having guns due to mental illness or criminal conduct but who are clearly not in good control of themselves.
As for the rest of the country, it’s not hopeless to address gun violence but it’s not as simple as politicians regard it.
3
@Casual Observer I don't know of any politician who thinks the answers are simple. But in the current political climate, starting simple appears to be the only way to get things started.
3
Yes, and every time a young man gets shot to death on our streets, the local community bonds together and says, "This must never happen again." Sadly and ironically, it's gotten even worse, no matter how many prayer circles are attended, candles lit and floral arrangements attached to the crime scenes.
It's not the drinking water, folks, as the water we drink here in Woebegone hasn't changed in our lifetime. We never had these gunfights and senseless massacres in our era. In fact, those who served WW2 and saw the same horrors as today's combatants, rarely shot anyone, even those who suffered PTSD.
What's missing today is a nation without a guiding parent at home, one or two, who can nurture, instruct and talk about morals for their kids. Many diverse young males today leave home before their teenage years for the succor of the violent gangs.
Love has been replaced with social media "like" and real conversations with text and salacious videos. Virtually none of these young "time-bombs go to church or believer in a loving God. The same can be said for many of the rest of us.
We are reaping our own whirlwinds.
4
The ubiquity of guns does not confirm our freedom but rather, reduces it.
My home is in a poor part of town. Two dead bodies were found in a ditch only a stone's throw from my driveway. A high, industrial chain-link fence and gate surround my yard. The gate is always closed and it is often locked, especially at night. One of my neighbors has military-style concertina (razor) wire on top of his fence. Neither of us have any wealth.
Gunshots ring out in the neighborhood, regularly and often. Not just during hunting season or during hunting hours.
When I was a child we lived near a big city. There were no fences, no gates, no window bars, and people didn't lock their doors.
The more gun violence we have, the more freedom we lose. I would never leave my yard nor go to sleep without locking the gate. A gate which years ago didn't exist, and didn't need to.
20
@Kevin
You live in CA, with some of the most restrictive, anti-freedom regulations in the nation. And, yet, you complain about the ubiquity of gun violence in your neighborhood. Meanwhile, in deep blue VT, which elects socialists, the population is almost universally armed. VT’s violent crime rate is the second lowest in the nation, and you can count the number of gun murders in any give year on the fingers of one hand. In CA, the violent crime rate is 15th highest, and there were almost 1500 murders.
So, what’s different? What distinctions exist between the peaceful people in heavily armed VT and those in guns-are-icky, but trigger-happy CA?
In short, use facts and logic. We KNOW that guns don’t present the problem because people in pro-freedom VT don’t run around visiting carnage on their neighbors. Indeed, as you point out, back in the day, when guns were a lot easier to get, “there were no fences, no gates, no window bars, and people didn't lock their doors.” You might have gone further to note that schools offered rifle clubs, that you could hoist a .22 in many an amusement park (as a child), etc.
And, so, again, I ask: what’s changed?
Guns CAN’T be the problem; they never were before, and so many people in pro-freedom states enjoy their freedom without blood in the streets. If things are different now, despite thousands of new laws affecting the law abiding, since it CAN’T be the guns, it must be something about the people.
Your thoughts?
1
Unfortunately I think when Trump had the meeting with lawmakers where he said they should stand up to the NRA, he was just trying to sound presidential on TV. He had no intention of actually doing any of the things he said he would do.
26
Wow, imagine my thrill. Getting to edit the New York Times Editorial Board. "This should stop". There is absolutely nothing that mandates it 'has to stop'.
1
@Richard Mclaughlin "has to" etc. has become one of my pet peeves that I have become inured to.
What ever happened to the good old "must?"
1
America created it's own problem by allowing every citizen to own firearms. Congress at the behest of the NRA supports a gun industry which churns out more technologically sophisticated implements of death every year. The industry continues to make the weapons more lethal and market tactical military cosmetic features to Rambo wannabees and powder pink "Hello Kitty" and unicorn firearms to women. It is our national disgrace that people are cut down in the prime of their life and Congress is loathe to do anything about it. It is time for real spines, damn the NRA, damn their blood money, take action to stem this national scourge of death by firearm. These senseless death of innocent citizens go well beyond thoughts and prayers.
25
How did the NRA manage to convince those people to include the 2nd amendment in the first ten amendments to the Constitution?
@Bill
Remember, much of their blood money came from Russia...with hate.
I wonder if political action at the national level that sends a message would reduce mass shootings? That is about all that can be done to effect would be mass shooters. They already have or can obtain perfectly legally the weapons they need. All of the recent mass shootings were carried out with such weapons. Certainly banning the sale of AR15 style weapons, which seem to have an appeal to these killers would help by giving law enforcement an easier time of it.
5
I would like to think that Trump will actually agree and stay committed to legislation long enough to get a drafted. I doubt that he can keep his resolve long enough for that bill to get to his desk, but maybe this pig will fly a short distance. Anything is possible.
However, this editorial is wrong when it asserts that Trump could burn just a small part of his political capital with his base to get this legislation through. This is such an overwhelming issue for his people that they will turn on him in an instant. His base has done this before on an issue tying together that ridiculous wall and draconian, cruel immigration policies. His support won't last if he gives more than lip service to sensible policies that are anathema to his base. He knows this, that's partly why he continues to do the bait and switch, pretending to agree to sign on to legislation for gun control, immigration or some other important topic, only to pull the football away like Lucy.
10
I fear that it has rather come to my attention that Trump lies a lot, and will pretty much say whatever he thinks will get him through the next five minutes.
19
@Robert -- Trump lies merely for the thrill of lying and "getting away with it," superficially. it is an expression of cray-cray and machismo.
I made a trip to Argentina in the grip of its right-wing military junta, just before the Falklands war. The national psyche of Argentina is also famous for machismo and fatalism, and the peculiar emo of the tango.
What I experienced is that all sorts of men, particularly those in service positions, would tell ridiculous lies solely as a machismo challenge. They won if you didn't call them on it. No sane person wants to get into a fight over nonsense, so they get "rewarded" continually for their behavior.
Trump is like this, FOX "news" is like this. The creation of a false "truth" is their definition of power.
1
if the nation wants to really remove these from the populace, strong harsh penalties for possession of unregistered or stolen guns. mean nasty 15 year penalties. lock up a few thousand people like that and the majority will pony up there weapons.
sounds like a bit of tyranny by the government but the tyranny is the adherence to this silly idea that each individual is a militia and is regulated. England has removed the larger part of their guns from homes with regulation. Australia said 1 mass shooting was enough. people just do not need guns and if removed songbirds and many mammals will be off the slaughter list.
11
@daniel r potter -- none of that is necessary, and by suggesting it is you feed the NRA.
Look at Australia and England, after they imposed strict gun controls: they did not engage in tyrannical searches etc., and those would have not been effective if they had.
They did have voluntary buy-back programs, AND they started to control ammunition quite strictly, AND they started to put substantial police resources into tracing where those who were caught with illegal guns had gotten them, particularly younger offenders who must have gotten them after the laws were enacted. Almost all perps will rat out where they got a gun for a reduction in sentence, and severe sentences for the providers greatly reduced the illegal gun market very quickly, even though there were still a lot of hoarded guns.
In Australia today there are still a lot of illegal guns being turned in -- the usual story is that "grandpa died and we found this in his stuff." Grandpa kept it illegally, but grandpa never shot anybody ... or sold it to somebody who would.
1
Although I like the optimism in this editorial, Trump has no moral compass and will do whatever makes him popular. He may, with the utmost sincerity, speak to gun control after a mass shooting, then cozy up to the NRA the next day. The mass shooting epidemic is a deeper issue in American culture. Why do certain individuals, some who have no history of mental health issues, feel compelled to kill their fellow citizens? A deep change in the American psyche is needed. Gun control will help, but the insanity of mass shootings, homocides, and suicides is unique to the US. This doesn't happen in Canada where a high percentage of the population are gun owners.
13
@John Joseph In another comment, I observed that Canadians still fire at targets shaped like bullseye's, while Americans now fire at targets shaped like human beings. I blame the NRA, in part, for effecting that change in our psyche: that the gun is there to kill people, not game, and not for defense of self or state. For Americans, the gun is there to kill people, in some future imagined by the NRA in which large quantities of people (who? liberals? muslims? zombies?) need to be killed. And for some disenfranchised Americans, the future is too long to wait.
95
@Phil: The NRA is just one manifestation of American millenarianism in anticipation of the apocalyptic events described in the "Revelations" chapter of the Bible.
1
Let’s face the terrible facts. Only a minority of citizens and a very small minority of politicians pray, mourn or fight for gun control. Tragically, a majority of Americans have little regard for human life and, with every mass shooting, refuse to take action to protect those who we know will die in the future. And with each mass shooting, the television commentariat will bloviate, politicians will offer hollow prayers, not enough public voices will cry out for action, and no one will do anything. And the NRA will continue to pour money into political coffers with no regard for human life. Am I cynical? No, I am despondent.
9
Congress doesn't want it to stop. Representatives and Senators have had decades to reject the NRA and the minuscule group of citizens it represents. The US has been diverging from the rest of the world for years, obvious to everyone, and has done nothing. Well, not true, they've supported laws the make it illegal to spend federal money to study gun violence...so, there's that.
I wonder where next week's shooting will be...
5
Anything positive that Trump says in insincere. One of his handlers has persuaded him to read from the script, again, but as soon as an open mic stands in front of his face, his truth comes out. Bipartisan and gun control are not in his vocabulary. Dividing and conquering are his only motives.
6
Anyone remember how after the election Trump invited Mitt Romney to have dinner with him supposedly to discuss Mr Romney becoming Secretary of State -- and then Trump "punked" and mocked him by taking a photo in which Mr Romney seemed like just another sycophant, thereby losing all credibility as Trump's most prominent Republican critic?
That's what's behind Trump's recent kind words and warm gestures towards Ms Pelosi -- a ploy to expose and discredit her. Not simply to hurt her reputation and standing within the Democratic party but also, and maybe primarily, to fend off the anticipated results of the Mueller investigation and any attempt by the Democratic majority in the House to investigate evidence of corruption in the current Administration.
Trump does not have a bipartisan bone in his body. Racism, sure. Authoritarianism, you betcha. Misogyny, that too. But bipartisanship, moderation, leadership, self-reflective analysis, etc.? Sorry, not this fella.
17
I'm quite concerned about the naivete I'm reading in the NYT, of all places, about Trump being "the ideal president to tackle the issue. . . . If inclined, he could burn just a small fraction of that capital on promoting some of the common-sense gun measures desired by a majority of the electorate."
This so-called president has a track record of paying lip service to all kinds of problems.
Trump will claim to do whatever his audience wants to hear, do nothing, and then hope the problem resolves itself or everyone forgets about it.
If the problem persists, he will not address it until someone else brings it up, at which point he will say a fix is in the works, just wait and see.
He often repeats the "wait and see" lie several times.
If the issue is not pressing, he will blow it off and say that his people are working on it, or that no one really cares about it anymore, and that's that.
If the issue is pressing, Trump will ultimately tell us how he had a tremendous plan and blame someone -- read, Democrats -- for blocking it in order to make him look bad.
So why would Trump ever anger his NRA arm when he can use the media to report he's got a plan in the works, and then use the media again to pass blame for inaction onto someone else?
7
Forgive me if I don't believe Trump is serious about increasing gun control, when he's opposed it all these years and his base also oppose it. Remember, 70% or so of what he says is false. I don't take anything he says seriously. He's saying what he thinks will sound good, assuming it's safe to say because Congress will never pass it.
6
Trump is not a rational man. He traffics in emotionalism, especially fear, prejudice and anger. I see no hope in waiting for Trump to get "real" I encourage gun safety/control at the local and state level, especially in states such as California, Oregon and Washington.
4
I wish it were not the case, but it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that Trump would ever embrace gun control. Too bad on many levels; in addition to the obvious stuff (public safety and all that), it would be interesting to see which his cult would choose: the gun or the grifter?
5
Cunning as he is, Trump will do anything to be re-elected. Some flamboyant measure of good sense bipartisanship may be just what he needs. Less dramatic than shooting someone on Fifth Avenue, shooting the NRA in the foot surely won't alienate his base and may bring along some fence-sitters just looking for an excuse to vote for him.
Surely the Senate has a couple of Republican Senators willing to work with the House and the President to pass some sort of gun control regulation.
Democrats should cooperate. For once we could have a win-win-win-win situation, which would be nice except for those tired of winning.
1
February 28th, Trump had a near Nixon in China moment. He sat down with Senator's Feinstein and Klobuchar and others to discuss common sense gun safety laws. He expressed sympathy for the notion that automatic weapons had no place in american society, particularly homes subject to mental illness or domestic violence. The Democrats must not lose this opportunity to engage the president in dialogue over gun violence once again. At this point in his presidency, Trump may in fact realize that goverining the Republican party is a paltry victory compared to earning a spot in the history books as the president who did more than any other to save millions of American lives from senseless murder, now and for decades to come.
1
@Big Bucks You believed him? Joke's on you. In case you haven't noticed, he'll say anything in one moment and the exact opposite in the next.
1
Strict background check isn’t enough. We need to turn in all semi-automatic and repeating firearms. Make them illegal to posses. Pay a bounty for turning them in, no questions asked. Outlaw the sale of new guns.
Many people and most bad guys will not turn their firearms in. How many firearms would be turned? How many more over the years? The number of firearms in private hands would sink over time.
We would all be safer. In a few hundred years, firearm deaths would be a rare thing. Anything less and we are kidding ourselves.
10
I wouldn't say this about Nancy Pelosi, but if President Trump "could do far worse," his history tells us that he will do far worse. Even though he talks a big game, he doesn't do heroism. Sadly, the bone spurs in his heels get in the way but as far as anybody knows he suffers no bone spurs in his mouth.
President Trump likes things that go "bang!" it is certainly incumbent upon the Democratic House of Representatives to make every possible effort to stem the carnage of mass shooting. but we should expect no allied cooperation from The West Wing.
5
"When that upset the N.R.A., the president backpedaled. But clearly the impulse to do more lies somewhere inside of him, perhaps waiting for the right political moment to arise."
"Clearly the impulse . . . " The situation is dire and the shootings must be curtailed, but I don't think it's helpful to drift into fantasy about Trump's impulses. Where exactly would all this latent goodness within Donald Trump, lie? He doesn't care about people's well-being other than his own, and a couple of family members' - and even there he is unreliable. After a tragic week of mailbomb attempts and the shootings in Pittsburgh, Trump could not bring himself to cease race-baiting and inciting violence as he did - by hyping a non-existent border crisis to the base. After the shooting he specifically stated that an armed guard could have prevented deaths. That has become his favorite phrase with which to pander to the NRA while pretending to suggest constructive policy. No amount of exhortation can induce this hardened psychopath to take any realistic, humane action. In fact, he will only veto any bill that might annoy the NRA. Change will not happen until he is kicked out of office.
7
Gun violence has become too much like the drug abuse problem. Pain medication may be needed but under what circumstance? Guns may be needed but under what circumstance? Gun "freedom" clearly affects everyone, but like illicit drugs, there are simply too many in our collective waste stream, and too many people willing to use them in an illegal manner. Too many of us have friends and family who suffer under the pain of drug abuse. How many of us know someone personally, who has been killed by a weapon? Question to Mr. Trump: why would any responsible, God fearing, religious person not work to protect the lives of our young by whatever means?
5
it won't. the modern "conservative" stance towards anything and everything is stasis. even from supposed "conservative thinkers" there is nothing.
blame marco rubio and paul ryan for this. they are the ones who have the power to do something but won't.
their belief in high minded looking the other way is getting lots of people killed. wish they saw this for what it is: a disaster.
3
I don't mean to burst your bubble, but there is no way Trump is going after guns. While he may be able to shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose a single vote, the one thing he cannot do (probably the ONLY thing he cannot do), is try the ban the gun he used to do it.
2
No matter the laws enacted, violent crimes will still be committed by violent actors. Sane or insane. Wish we could’ve gotten this Marine the helped he needed beforehand.
Didn't Trump once say that he could shoot someone on 5th avenue and not lose his supporters? So perhaps he could pivot - and sign a ban on assault weapons - and not lose supporters.
2
This opinion is out of touch with political reality.
Trump has long sense abdicated any sense of ethics, morals or compassion. He will say or do whatever he thinks is best for himself, not for others. Blaming the victims, not gun control, feeds his base.
These horrific tragedies are good for the NRA’s business. As such, strategies to reduce gun violence will not be part of the Trumpkw agenda.
4
1)As perhaps the most highly protected person on the planet, Trump is in very little danger of being involved in a mass shooting.
2) He has never shown any convincing sign of compassion or empathy for the pain and loss of any other human being than himself, so victims of gun violence are only numbers to be added or subtracted from his popularity ratings.
3) Many of the reliable shouters and fist-pumpers at his rallies are 2nd Amendment nuts.
3)Unfettered gun ownership brings him votes, NRA and Gun Lobby cash.
4)He is supported by politicians who are dependent on NRA money for (re)election.
If we ever get anything approaching sensible gun regulations, it won’t be under Donald Trump.
7
Trump always lies. He does not enter into agreements in good faith. If he said he wanted tougher gun laws, he has something else on his mind. Do not take any Trump offer as real or good.
These are the lessons we should keep in front of us.
6
Let's begin with a 5-year moratorium on the sale of ammunition while the lawmakers dream up other possible solutions.
I'm starting to believe that responsible, mentally-balanced hunters and gun collectors are not one of the causes of these massacres. Rather it appears to be the easy access to deadly weapons that becomes a lethal combination when mixed with mental illness.
By now I think we've realized that normal people just don't do these things, the individuals committing these slaughters are criminally insane, down to the very last one. You can't suddenly make them all well, but you can make it very difficult for them to arm themselves.
Asking the whole country to give up their guns just isn't going to work. Guns are very expensive and are a primary emblem of the freedoms and military victories we celebrate and cherish.
You wouldn't give a gun to a child, but when the mentally disturbed can freely put down money and walk away with all the hardware necessary to commit a massacre, you're doing basically the same thing. A person with flawed judgement can do just about anything.
Withholding all the bullets will put the ammunition companies out of business? Well, tough luck guys, you should have thought of that when you got into the killing business. What goes around, comes around. We certainly don't need any more killing. Sell them to the US Army instead.
Trump's words are worthless. The fact is, even IF he had some kind of spiritual epiphany that suddenly granted him a reprieve from his relentless self interest causing him to become a strong proponent for sensible regulations, his supporters would turn on him like a pack of wolves. There's no way he's going there. He'll propose some bland measures that he knows will get bogged down; in the end he'll shrug it off and make some lame joke about Democrats. Don't worry, America. Your guns are safe.
4
What would be the law that would have prevented the shooting here in California? Having lived in California most of my life and having just bought a gun in Los Angeles County I am quite familiar with the laws since California requires you to pass a firearms safety and firearms laws test before you can buy a gun. California also requires a background check and 10 day waiting period. California requires you to present valid identification and a thumb print to buy ammunition. It iis against the law to carry a loaded firearm whether concealed or open carry in any place besides your home, your office, and a gun range. If you carry a gun in a car the gun has to be locked in a box separate from the ammunition. It is virtually impossible for any law abiding citizen to obtain a concealed carry weapons permit in Los Angeles County or Ventura County where the shooting occurred. So please set forth what possible law, other than banning guns completely and finding and confiscating every firearm in private hands in California, which is and would be impossible, would have prevented this shooting? Those of us who survived the 1992 riots know that law enforcement and the National Guard are incapable of protecting us or out families and loved ones in the face of civil insurrection. So tell me what possible law would have prevented this horrible mass shooting in Thousand Oaks?
1
@John Q. Public A law prohibiting extended magazines for handguns, for one, would have reduced the carnage.
1
@Steve Nelson
Steve,
California already prohibits extended magazines - they are also illegal here. Any other suggestions?
Who cares what Trump once "said?" His words are meaningless.
Anyone who thinks that he'll ever take a stance that would cost him the votes of his base is delusional.
4
Politics makes strange bedfellows. Nothing would be stranger than Trump and Pelosi working on common sense gun controls.Trump views himself as the ultimate dealmaker. If so inclined Trump could make the biggest deal of his life. And all Americans would win. Who is more powerful? Trump or the NRA? Stay tuned.
2
How many times has Donald Trump hedged on this issue before? And why should it suddenly matter now now, when only a few weeks ago 11 people were gunned down in Pittsburgh?
As long as this president and the G.O.P. are beholding to the NRA, and the gun enthusiasts who make up his core of supporters there won't be any changes.
Just expect more promises, more senseless and shootings more excuses not to change.
2
We are going to have to launch a cultural campaign as a nation to change the current GUN LOVERS culture of this country, which has been very carefully fueled by the NRA. We no longer have one handgun kept at home to defend property. We have macho consumers, bragging about how many guns and how powerful there guns are etc. and you have gangs with guns and hot tempers doing drive-by shootings and revenge killings, and accidents that take the lives of thousands of children every year because immature youth and even toddlers found their parents unsecured guns. The cure needs to begin by making guns less glamorous to the average American. We need to step up as people and demand that the NRA stops promoting this macho gun-candy image. It's a cancer.
5
Americans are so very, very violent because they're the systemic perpetrators of extreme violence domestically & internationally, not the receivers.
You will never experience peace of mind, heart or actions until 'the right to bear arms' surely means protecting life not your killing fields.
3
The kneejerk reaction after every mass killing by a white guy is stronger gun laws and more scrutuny of mental health of gun buyers. If these killers were of a different Hue we would find something more than what we have to protect ourselves. In a country with more guns than people the genie is out of the bottle. My family is from the south so guns were always around and was a part of rural life. Saying all that I can'y remember any weopons that my family members used on D Day or the Tet Offensive in our house. The love of week end warrior for weopons of war is frightening.
2
Donald Trump's base loves guns. He was right when he said that they would not abandon him if he shot someone. But they would turn on him in a heartbeat if he partnered with Nancy Pelosi to enact gun control measures. Trump knows this. It will never happen.
3
You failed to mention the large number of Americans shot one and two at a time every day. I expect politicians to focus on splashy events, I expect the Press keep an eye on the larger situation. This is simply a failure.
1
First, the 300 million guns in America are enough to arm every man, woman and child.
Second, guns never wear out. If their parts are worn or fatigued, those parts are easily replaced. Guns never wear out. With 300 million guns in circulation in America, anyone who wants a gun can get one.
With the empathy and support of all concerned Americans, we can pass a quota on gun manufacturers that to produce one more gun, they need to destroy a gun. This way we won't exceed the number of guns in circulation today. The 2nd Amendment will remain intact and neatly out of the discussion.
In the meantime, municipalities, counties, states and the federal government can hold annual 'gun buy back' festivals from which guns would be unceremoniously destroyed. Children's playground swings, slides and other equipment, made from the scrap metal, can be donated to needy areas around the country. (I'd love to see a teeter-totter made from melted AR-15s.)
Finally, as the number of guns in circulation begins to shrink, we can also be working on other legislative ways to control military-style weapons, bump stocks and other such highly lethal means to kill our fellow citizens. If you want a rifle for hunting, fine. If you want a military-style rifle to kill people, the Army and Marines are hiring.
6
I'm not optimistic. Politically, guns are a big winner for Republicans. Until something changes within our culture, and more people vote accordingly, gun violence will continue to escalate. There are so many guns on the streets now, including AR-15s. NRA propaganda reaches deep and wide. The partisan divide is bigger than ever. It's not even possible to have a rational discussion about common sense gun laws. I don't see anything changing in my lifetime.
6
@Ginger Walters I think you summed it up pretty well, I would only add that there is a media component to this. Whenever there is mass shooting the media response is to report on it like the debate between coke and pepsi; as if it was a simple choice between to similar things.
These are not similar choices, we have a group of people that ignore the fact that open easy access to guns is causing mass shootings daily now, and children are being slaughtered in their classrooms.
We need reporters to start correcting people when they start rattling off NRA propaganda, and call out this for what it really is, radical domestic terrorism.
1
This opinion piece makes a logical, compelling argument for improved public safety through intelligent gun-control laws. It also makes a bold yet nuanced proposition that our current President is uniquely situated--given some long-past musings on the subject, as well as this week's change in the House--to play an almost "Nixon-in-China" role where a presumed sense of the President's protection for the Second Amendment to the Constitution might afford him strong leadership in advancing meaningful control that can stem our recent yet recurring trend of public slaughter.
Dream on. It will never, ever happen: never. Thomas Jefferson wrote: "I have ever observed that a choice by the people themselves is not generally distinguished for its wisdom." This statement comes from the principle author of the Declaration of Independence and our nation's third President. Fortunately for us, Jefferson's observation has not proven to be dependably accurate; however, on this topic, he has all the proof he needs.
5
"If inclined, he could burn just a small fraction of that capital on promoting some of the common-sense gun measures desired by a majority of the electorate."
The key words are, 'if inclined.' Mr. Trump could do a lot of things, "if inclined," but those moments are few and far between.
How many times have we seen this man speak reason (DACA, etc.), luring Democrats in, only to nix the deal when his base (and Stephen Miller) squawked.
Yes, the man is a tabula rasa when it comes to convictions, but those are so few and far between. Moreover, he's not the type to soften when he's under considerable stress, which he is now.
The Democratic wins keep coming, on pace to make party wins as significant as those after Watergate. He's already catching flack from some in his own party over the unconstitutional move to install a non-Senate approved loyalist as AG. And we know what he faces come January.
I would love to see a deal, really I would. Pelosi might be just the sort of pragmatist, if she can catch this mercurial president on a good day.
"We shall see," as the president likes to say.
7
@ChristineMcM
‘Excuse me I have a diner appointment with the NRA leadership’