I had someone who worked in admissions and then college counseling tell me that the "least desirable" applicants were upper middle class white girls who attend public school in the Northeast. Because they are apparently "a dime a dozen"
Double negative if they have a generic White Girl Name, like "Lauren" or "Olivia".
I find it very sad that we stereotype any group as "generic" or "boring" based on their on-paper identity rather than their accomplishments.
My husband is a first generation son of immigrants from a European country. Because of this stereotype we gave our daughters all very ethnic names.
22
Getting into Harvard with poor grades is easy if you have a Dad like Charles Kushner who paid millions to get Jared Kushner in the door. Easy peasy, just takes a check.
61
It's a private school. They can do what they want.
30
The greater challenge is paying for it.
20
Good chance to be Harvard bound - if you pick the right parents.
5
This system of preferences should bring shame to Harvard. Instead I mostly see people lining up to defend them.
16
Harvard could set admission standards and then could randomize admissions among those who meet the standard. That way those who don't make it won't feel inferior and those that do won't feel so infallible. Harvard and other select Ivy grads have led this nation into quite a few disasters probably because of arrogance
21
I attended McGill (B.A. and Law) and graduated with distinction. It did open me all the right doors. Being somewhat opiniated, I ended up practicing law by myself until retirement at 55 for health reasons. Loved it.
Attending Canada's Harvard (or is Harvard America' McGill?) never hurt me and I undestand those who deify Harvard. You may end up a beach bum (nothing wrong with that, mind you) but you will be a Harvard one.
20
Is Harvard a private university? Yes it is. Therefore they retain the right to run the school as they see fit. Is that clear?
22
If you want to get into any top-20 American university, there are easy ways:
1. move to a very rural state. All these universities tout "students from 50 states." Bravo to the 20 scholars from Wyoming and North Dakota every year who can select any one of the U.S. most prestigious universities.
2. blatantly lie. This has been done before, most famously by a Princeton track star. What Ivy school isn't going to admit the president of the high school #MeToo club (made up) who supports their family with two unverifiable cash jobs and has "family stories" of ancestry in multiple minority groups? Throw in a few unverifiable hobbies like black belt in karate and traditional candle-making and you are in!
3. move to a terrible zip code and/or school district. Upper middle class, usually white, suburban parents have it all wrong. The "worse" high school your kid goes to, the more likely they will be accepted to a selective university. The course offerings will be limited too, so your kid can relax while suburbanites fight death matches in Kaplan SAT review courses.
4. get an odd summer job. Very few kids work these days, so ones that do stand out from the kids whose parents pay for "service" life experiences like $20,000 Habitat for Humanity junkets that admissions officers laugh at. From age 14, I worked at winery for two years, did construction labor for two others. Guess what, it worked, as that's all the interviewer asked me about.
38
It is no surprise that Harvard (along with other Ivies) is a bastion of privilege. A mediocre student at Harvard from a vastly wealthy family will certainly "succeed" in life. The question is whether the Harvard student from a middle class family does any better after graduation than a typical graduate of, say, Berkeley or UCLA. I would love to see the stats. With this reality check, maybe, just maybe, we could get over the obsession with schools where privilege begets privilege, and everyone else buys a lotto ticket for the scant chance of admission.
20
I own a law practice and do the hiring. I would not tolerate an outside group telling me who to employ. Therefore Harvard should be allowed to accept whom they please without outside influence. They have a methodology that should not be turned upside down by the individuals not accepted because of Harvard’s established standards.
13
@DENOTE MORDANT
indeed, but I doubt you get tax exempt status or receive federal grants.
If Harvard gave up both of those I would agree with you 100%.
Remember, we are all paying for Harvard by giving tax deductions for donations to add to their $37B endowment.
67
nothing new here! Didn't we all assume these rules were in play? Same at every single school.
7
There's another "edge": attending a pipeline high school.
In the Boston area, there are nine public and private schools that consistently send 5-25 students per year to Harvard. Most of the domestic students at Harvard are attending with another student from their high school. At our urban public high school, the Harvard acceptance rate averages about 25% per year.
The students from "sparse country" are the exception, but there really aren't that many. And remember, a student from a rural state who graduates from Andover counts as a student from sparse country!
13
"Harvard’s witnesses said it was important to preserve the legacy advantage because it encourages alumni to give their time, expertise and money to the university."
Time and expertise? C'mon, we know it's all about the money.
15
So these people talk about merit and reserve a third or more of their seats for candidates chosen under non-merit criteria. Shouldn't they lose their tax exemption?
11
These factors have been known for the last 30 plus years i.e. when I applied to and went to an Ivy. Moreover, they aren't particularly shocking, nor can I see why they should be controversial.
7
When I read about so many students with perfect SAT scores, I begin to question how exactly the students acheive that. I'm talking about amphetamines. That's the story I want to hear.
6
@Kitty I have a friend that works in SAT Prep - training students "how to take the test" I think that helps.
6
No discussion in the article about the "athletic" hook. Recruited athletes make up a good percentage of a class. Start with @25 for football and one gets into over 100 quickly for all sports. Close to 10% of a class. But no discussion. Just saying....
15
All these comments about "get over it," and "substance over status," are inspiring but, let's face it, not particularly congruent with reality. Being a Yale graduate has helped me at several critical points in my career. For example, after graduating in 1968 I did what a lot "60's" graduates did: wandered in the wilderness for some years (anti-war protesting, going back to the land, traveling in the third world, etc.). By the time I got serious about making a living, it was too late for a top tier law school. So I went to a second tier. Did well. But second tier is second tier. Second tier graduates don't usually get a serious look from the elite, best-paying law firms. But I did because I had the good luck to be interviewed by a senior partner, a Yale graduate, who, I guess, liked my style. During the interview it was clear that what had opened the door to the interview was the Yale connection. That hire made a significant difference in my subsequent career trajectory. So does a Havard / Yale diploma make a difference? In my experience, you bet your bippy it does. The Asian plaintiffs are right to fight for entrance.
31
Apply while black.
13
Frankly, I believe that personality and character should matter. I find too many students who have been pushed into academic achievement over having a life quite dull. Sorry, but studying hard and doing well in school is important, but if you had to forgo friendships, athletics or art or other endeavors to achieve that outcome, you are not a complete person. Colleges should seek well-rounded individuals, including adversity that was overcome. PS Asians and whites have adversity as well as other minorities; everyone faces some kind of demon, regardless of their zip code. I am tired of affirmative action though, and that is clearly something in place at Harvard with different 'cutoffs' for national testing. It was fine in the 60s, 70s, 80s when many were held back because of lousy schools, but not fine in the 21st century. I believed back then that blacks especially deserved a leg up, given the appalling education in inner cities. The promise was that they would focus on K-12 improvements over time. All I've seen is that K-12 is worse, not better. It's not the money spent either. Sadly, it's become culture - not cool to be black and smart. Frankly, it's not cool in many areas to be smart no matter what your race. Very sad.
3
@Ma The thing with these applicants to Harvard is that many, from every race, are well-rounded. They have the extracurriculars that encompass a variety of subjects and activities. They have the grades, too. The point of the case is that despite everything being on the same level, being East or South Asian is a disadvantage.
7
Our daughter was born and raised in the Boston area. We moved to Utah when she was a teen. I am sure her chances of getting into a Harvard increased when we moved out here. Interesting since she has not changed, just her zip code. But she didn't get in. It was like playing the lottery for her. If you don't play, you can't win. She went abroad for a year and is now at the University of Colorado. But there's always graduate programs to apply for. So who knows. The bottom line is Harvard is a wonderful institution for sure. But a good education is one that inspires thinking and reading and learning and growing. And that can be found in a myriad of places. So many wonderful and enriching experiences out there; community colleges, state schools, on-line learning, internships, trade schools. Stop focusing on the status and more on substance.
15
It’s misleading to list athletes, legacies, dean’s listers and children of faculty/staff under one heading. The number of students admitted under that umbrella category is far greater than the others.
4
Being admitted to Harvard and similar schools resembles a lottery. One of my children was admitted to Stanford, Dartmouth (full ride), Wash U. (honors program, full ride), and Northwestern. Declined by Notre Dame, Yale, Harvard, and Georgetown. Go figure.
20
Your laundry list is rather superfluous here. As long as your kid got into his first choice school, who cares where he was rejected?
7
Step 5. Don't be Asian.
34
It can’t be too hard to graduate from Harvard once you get in can it? Look at Jared Kushner and the Kennedys.
24
Do not forget the “C” student George W. Bush, 43rd President of the United States whom surprised his parents by being accepted as a legacy student at Harvard.
12
Jeez- NYT- get over Harvard already.
23
While I am an engineer that came up from state schools (both for BS, MS and MBA) I married some who is entire Ivy League-educated (BS and MD) and frankly, while I admire the level of effort she put into her studies, I hate to think that she is the wonderful person she is due to the Ivy Leagues. People get so fixated on these schools as if they will transform someone into a god-like figure. While I recognize the nameplate that goes with Harvard & Co, great men and women can and do come from all corners.
31
It ain’t the school, it is all about the student.
3
In other words Harvard like the federal and democrat state governments and "liberal" universities has invented so many ways that one can be 'qualified' for hiring/admittance that they can justify almost any given percentage quota that our 1% or political class has dreamed up as means to increase their wealth and power by patronage gift buying the loyalty of ever more citizens instead of allowing merit to determine who is rewarded in our society.
7
Lots of good comments here, but I wanted to add- part of the reason these 'elite' schools are so selective is that they allow anyone and everyone to apply via the common application-- those appx 40K applicants would shrink to probably 15-20K if students actually had to request an application in writing instead of just clicking a box (I know some of the less savvy students will not know to do this, but honestly if they're smart enough for Harvard they would probably figure it out, thanks to the internet). It makes the universities look more selective than they really are by falsely lowering their acceptance rate, and if you compare comparable students from the late 80s/90s to comparable students from today, the acceptance rate is almost the same and it's higher than 2-3%. If you are a competitive candidate, it's actually not THAT difficult to get in (probably around 20% chance). I guess the trouble lies in how they pick that 20% when so many of them are ALDCs, but this article doesn't really address that. Maybe they feel that more 'effervescent' students fit in better with the learning style at the school, or they feel that is a quality that future leaders must possess, maybe they feel that quieter students will be lost and more susceptible to failing to join in socially and therefore not get as much out of the Harvard experience as others, or maybe they know that if they admit someone from Montana they are more likely to donate gobs of money back to the school. Who knows.
11
How to get into Harvard has been an "open secret" for at least 50 years (beyond the legacy and mega wealthy and "right" prep school choices).
Harvard has a great many sponsored sports teams. You can significantly improve your chances by mastering some super preppy sport like fencing, or sailing, or lacrosse, or tennis, or rowing, or...
These teams need to be staffed and have groups of alumni who actively support them and contribute to Harvard. Even non-preppy sports like judo will help if Harvard fields a team. Look at the different sports sponsored by Harvard and pick one that does not formally recruit.
Of course it is probably easiest to "credential" in one of these sports by attending the right prep school, but the skill itself is important.
12
So my son who has a 3.9 average and a 1500 on the SAT won’t get into Harvard? Will living in the worst zip code when it comes to crime and poverty help him get in or not. It’s not rural American but Urban.
11
@Mick
Is he good at something? Has he applied early? Has he taken the hardest classes at his high school? Has he worked? Has he taken advantage of all the opportunities he has been given and/or created his own opportunities? What world language has he taken (hopefully something other than Spanish or French)?
In short, what does he have to offer the Harvard community?
10
My God, when will the US ever get over its asinine obsession with the Ivy League? It has produced more dangerous blockheads than any collection of institutions on the planet.
157
@Plennie Wingo
From your lips to God's ears...
Americans used to be amazed with the obsession the Japanese had with Tokyo University. The cram schools and all the rest. Americas has become the very same thing.
I hate to break it to the Ivy League snobs, but there are plenty of schools where one can get a high quality education. A good friend of mine (hey Woodrow) during my college days was a Grad Student who used to do summer terms at Harvard, and he was the first to dismiss the snobbery about the place. He had been accepted, but opted to go closer to home to keep an eye on his mom, who was in frail condition.
Like he used to say, the rules of language, science and math are the same in Arkansas as they are in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
A college T-Shirt was one worn by Cal Tech students to a national conference that read "MIT- because not everyone can get into Cal Tech".
I would remind all that Donald J Trump is a Penn grad & Dubya a Harvard/Yale grad. Harry Truman entered the Presidency at the end of a global war facing all the political, economic and military challenges of the aftermath and he had a High School Diploma from Missouri. Dwight Eisenhower went to the USMA at West Point. Would you prefer the Ivy League or the solid leader?
14
@Plennie Wingo it has also produced some of the most productive members of our society and ground breaking research than any other collection of educational institutions
5
@Plennie Wingo I agree - it produces many dangerous blockheads - it also gives access to the "elite, privilidged" jobs. I worked at a company started by a Law Firm. I learned there are "partners" and "equity partners" - only "equity partners" shared in the profit at the end of the year. When I checked, EVERY "equity partner" was from an Ivy School. Equity Partners bring in the most money to the law firm. If you went to the school where the CEO of "BigBusinessX" went to school - it's easier to bring legal business to your Law Firm. More business in -you get "Equity Partner." The connections built at Harvard are ancillary to the "education" at Harvard - and may matter more. Harvard "fairly" recruiting is necessary to promogulate the myth of "The American Dream" - that if you work hard, you can rise socially and economically, no matter the social or ecoomic class into which you were born.
4
Clearly, Harvard is nearing the importance of Oz.
14
During my lifetime, I have known many graduates of Harvard.
Each and every one of them have been highly successful individuals in their careers and life in general. So I believe there is a secret sauce that Harvard uses in their selection process.
BTW, all are very humble and not of the bragging or entitled personality type. They don't wear a badge upon their sleeves that proclaims that they went to Harvard. Very likable people all.
15
@MS I agree. People I've known who have come out of other top schools such as Wellesley and Stanford had one thing in common: all of them had worked their butts off for four solid years to graduate with Bs and Cs, and they acknowledged it.
2
According to the article, "In 2013, white applicants with P.S.A.T. scores of 1310 were invited to apply from sparse country, compared with 1350 for white and Asian-American women and 1380 for white and Asian-American men outside of sparse country. Black, Hispanic, Native American or other minority students needed an 1100 or better to be invited to apply, regardless of location." These numbers are to some extent arbitrary.
Harvard wants certain numbers or proportions of students of various backgrounds and characteristics in each incoming freshman class, and uses PSAT scores, which are acknowledged to be imperfect in many ways, to create a quasi-scientific screening mechanism.
It would be useful to see the correlations of admitted students' PSAT scores and group status (black, white, hispanic, legacy, athlete, etc.) with outcomes such as graduation rate, number of years required to complete the BA, drop-out rate, failure rate, graduation with honors, etc. All colleges collect and analyze such data, though I don't know if Harvard's have been submitted as part of this lawsuit.
I believe Harvard has been making a sincere effort to diversify its student body. However, it does appear that, based on the numbers of Asian students enrolled, Harvard has discriminated against Asian applicants. If so, the solutions to this problem would be to increase the size of the freshman class and/or to re-balance the proportions of special admission categories (race, legacy, athletes, etc.).
2
Following this story over the days and week, I am surprised at the extent to which the majority of observers are surprised by this information. As a college counselor who has been working to support students through the application and admission process, absolutely nothing about the so-called secrets that have been revealed are new. These are exactly the factors... every single one of them! ...we have been discussing with our students and their parents for years. Unfortunately, not everyone listens, even the parents to whom we convey this information. So often, a great deal of misinformation is bandied about out there and some very ridiculous assumptions are made about what it takes to be competitive for admission.
At the heart of the case from the beginning was a belief that objective measurement alone should be the driving force in admitting a freshman class to a college. Well, if you could get every applicant to Harvard or any other selective school from around the world into a single room to sit an assessment that none of them have ever seen before... The process must be nuanced given myriad factors. And as long as students and families understand that and the fact that admission to a highly selective institution like Harvard is not the life deal-breaker they think it is--there are so many incredible schools across the country (and world!)--they can begin to dial down the stress that they inflict upon themselves through the college application process.
31
Where do alumni interviews fit in all this?
5
@Doug McKenna My daughter had an interview and reported that the interviewer was rude and dismissive.
3
Oh, give it a rest! Harvard's admission system isn't close to being as important as other stories. The obsession of the Times with it has become a form of Harvard bashing. And if it is important, then what about the admission systems of Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc.? Why obsess on Harvard when there may be a bigger story about admission to elite universities? Has the Times even looked into these other institutions?
13
@Forest Chisman. Harvard is relevant because of the Federal discrimination case against it. It is a case that will likely reach the Supreme Court eventually. The methods Harvard uses to select its student body are likely similar to those used by many elite universities but until now those methods were secret. That is why Harvard is the subject of the piece.
25
The context here is that Harvard is at trial in court, so all of the facts about Harvard are now public. Likely much of this is also true about other highly-selective private colleges and universities. Hence the focus on Harvard and the broader relevance of the story.
5
My son was accepted into Harvard after living in Peru for three years, graduating from an excellent, private international British-Peruvian high school, earning a spot on the Peruvian International Debate and volunteering at a Lima hospital for abused teen-aged girls. His younger brother had the same Peruvian experience but -- after seeing his brother graduate and struggle with steep private student loans -- decided college debt was not for him and, back in the states, became a musician and went into the solar energy industry. The Harvard brass ring is not for everyone.
16
I worked at Harvard in the early 1980s. I was an audio-visual supervisor so I had a chance to interact with many students. I had never seen so much diversity. Frankly, it was wonderful. There were students from every race, religion and state. Plus there were many students from other countries. I thought it was a very rich environment. I hope that never changes.
37
Interesting statistics, but some are inconsistent with each other. In addition they are different from what Harvard puts on line.
Starting from a hypothetical number of 2000 applicants, ALDC's are 5% of the total, i.e. 100 (regular applicants are 1,900). Of these 45, i.e. 45% are admitted. The article further states that they are 30% of the total admitted, which means the total admitted is 150 applicants, that is 45 ALDC and 105 regular applicants. Therefore the admission percentage for regular applicants is 105 / 1900 = 5.5%, but the article says this is 4.5% to 5% of applicants; it's a large enough discrepancy.
Harvard's online statistics state that 2,024 out of 42749 students are admitted; that's less than 5% https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics but the figures calculated from the article imply 7.5%, i.e. 150 / 2000.
2
The article title misleads -- Getting into Harvard isn't hard at all. You just have to be from the right kind of family.
25
What happens to a smart, but shy Asian daughter of a Harvard graduant applies ?
11
@William Doolittle
Our smart but shy Asian daughter was admitted to Harvard. But we (the parents) are not Harvard graduates; we both went to state schools. My daughter decided to go to a different school in the west coast.
3
@William Doolittle
Depends on how much their alumni donation was. Seriously.
3
“Admissions officers are urged to look for applicants with “unusually appealing personal qualities,” which could include “effervescence, charity, maturity and strength of character.””
Sure and yes to charity, maturity, and character but “effervescence”?
Anyone can fake that…
I think a better description for any college candidate at any school is *enthusiasm for learning* new things and a record to back that up. Not for the school or a sport or even a major but for *learning*!
They are on the football team but took dance lessons. They did theatre as an actor and set designer. They spent a week/month/summer in France or Alabama or China learning about pottery or painting or calligraphy or whatever.
I would also add *adaptation* to that list. I found that students who left the university programs I have taught at, lacked the ability to adapt. It is not necessarily immediate adaptation. Some students, most students, grow up and learn to adapt by sophomore or junior years. Those that cannot, are usually out by second or third year at a school. Many leave after semester 1 or 2. They may stop college (a bad move) or better; transfer to a better school for them, in an area of study they prefer.
Adaptability and personal interests (very vague is OK! but somehow career/life's passion — no good word in English — based) are paramount for any applicant.
4
Why are these schools so absurdly fetishized?
I can think of one or two Ivy League alums in the public spotlight who are awesome examples of mediocrity.
Save yourselves some money and go to a good State school.
50
@ubique. You’re right. Al Gore is the paragon of Harvard mediocrity. I offer any of his books as evidence.
5
Ouch! I really think the philosophy contained in "The Emporer Who Wore no Clothes" is a key to a particular sort of contemporary happiness.
1
@unique Years ago, a family acquaintance arranged for me to have an interview for a job.
The first thing the person said to me was, "So, you went to Harvard!"
I said no, that was my sister. I went to (highly selective liberal arts college).
Things went downhill from there. Until you have seen the opportunities, internships, etc offered to Harvard students, you would not believe them.
And that includes young people in my family--double legacies.
31
Is anyone actually shocked by any of this?
15
When I applied to Harvard college, I remember two questions on the application “ what job do your parents do?” and “ do you have any Harvard alumni in your family?”
Since this is a taxpayer-subsidized institution, perhaps this is not fair.
14
@Working doc Those questions are routinely asked on applications for other universities.
8
@Working doc, Actually, Harvard is a private institution.
15
Black, Hispanic, Native American or other minority students needed an 1100 or better to be invited to apply, regardless of location and regardless of intelligence.
12
@Nreb
An applicant whose score is below 1100 or more can be far more intelligent than one whose father went to Harvard and had a 1400 or so. SATs are a screening tool that measures some academic learning, but do not necessarily accurately measure native intelligence, especially if one has not had the background of a wealthy privileged child.
15
Beethoven would never have got into Harvard had he applied - wrong personality; wrong family.
18
And Beethoven would have been miserable of he had gone to Harvard.
4
@JJ actually he had compelling life story, who have overcome obstacles. He was also particularly reflective, insightful, and dedicated. Not to mention being smart and talented
5
It's not clear how a place like Harvard maintains its dominance when they admit 45% from non-merit categories and 4-5% off of merit alone. It seems more like the non-merits are mooching off of the work of the merit candidates--without the latter, Harvard wouldn't be all that special.
20
Wow, seems really skewed. When my brother applied to Harvard in the 60's, the admissions officer told him if he had come from Kansas he'd be a shoe in. It bothered our father until his dying day.
It does seem that Harvard is working really hard to keep from being "too Asian" in it's student body. And that feels very wrong.
22
@Quickbeam
This is because Harvard recognizes that since Asians represent well over 50% of the human race, it would be unbalanced to allow more than 10% or so of their students to be of Asian descent.
This is the kind of thinking you send your child to Harvard to learn.
4
Protect your own, first; then, follow the money.
3
Based on what has been covered here and the link provided I don't see how affirmative action is being used to discriminate against Asians.
But then again most of the actions undertaken by racists conservative Republican backed efforts make little sense.
It seems the true affirmative action is ALDC. Despite that should Harvard rescind that policy its endowments and donors would shrink leading every private school to recoil in horror.
I do applaud Harvard for seeking to create a diversified student body. It's important to provide young people an an atmosphere that allows them direct access to different experiences. I would not want to see that taken away. It's one of the most important parts of obtaining a great education.
There is no place for homogeneity in a diverse society.
10
Time to acknowledge that "H" is a very good university but given far too much deference in the academic hierarchy. Schools such as Princeton and Brown (for the Ivy League wannabes), Stanford and Duke (for big school hopefuls), Williams and Colby (in the small college world) offer an equally fine education without the chest thumping and needless narcissism that emanates nonstop from one corner of Cambridge.
14
@Muleman What makes you think the admissions standards at the schools you mention are any different?
12
There are more applicants were perfect 4.0 GPAs and perfect SAT scores combined than there are spots for Harvard admission. To adequately assess the candidate the school MUST look at other factors- geography, identity, socio-economic status, lineage. This is a basic principle of being a selective school.
40
@AndrewE You forgot about how much money their parents have, whether they can play a sport well enough not to need a good SAT score, and how effervescent their personality is.
2
In California we have a two-year college system which is inexpensive and sometimes even free. My younger son, whose high school grades were not impressive, attended City College of San Francisco, paying for his own tuition while working. Later, he completed his degree at a four year college and went on to graduate school. We didn't have to spend a fortune on his education, some of which he paid for himself. He has a good job now at age 37 and is well-respected by his colleagues. I'm proud of him. Some people just want the prestige of places like Harvard, while a good education is readily available for those who don't care so much about snob appeal.
34
Harvard cannot come close to admitting all the students that would do well there. My daughter has many friends who did go there who did not fit one of the "edge" categories. They came from good families that supported their intellectual activities. They all had excellent grades, perfect SAT scores, and strong leadership skills or pursuits that showed strong mastery of a skill in the arts or sciences. She was one of the few in her crowd who didn't get into one of the ivies, but she was very happy at the University of Virginia. She has a good life with a rewarding career, both psychologically and monetarily.
I think too many people take rejections from elite schools personally. There are so many great schools out there. There are even great teachers at Community Colleges. I know, because I encountered one of the great professors of Shakespeare in one of them. Thanks to him, I read and watch those plays with great enjoyment and understanding.
70
@Susan It matters where you go to college. The best companies sometimes exclusively recruit from the best colleges. So, despite getting a great education from a community college, a graduate from there will not have the same opportunities as the graduates from the better colleges.
17
@NL It would seem to me, then, that the problem is with those companies and their discriminatory hiring practices. But no one is suing them.
11
@Susan. could you elaborate on what you mean by ' good families '? What constitutes a family that is not good?
2
"Those with a compelling life story, who have overcome obstacles". So for the kids who are born in good families, should parents should get divorce, or should one parent start drinking or become abusive? What should they do to make a compelling life story? This is also a kind of discrimination, discrimination against good parenting, good family values.
44
You assume that “good families “ never have obstacles to overcome.
9
@Mannu Who's to say that a story reminiscent of Little Women where a student is from a family full of love, joy, and laughter cannot also be compelling? That is one of my favorite books not because there is overwhelming hardship and suffering but because of how trials and tribulations that inevitably occurred were addressed by the family. I would hope that Harvard and other competitive schools can also see the compelling stories within essays that are told from a positive point of view.
3
So, 38000 people applying for 1 120 "open" slots While 2000 "special" students apply for 480 slots, according to this article, so it's really about 3 percent chance versus about 25 percent, seriously?
18
Somehow, MIT manages to keep the lights on and build the occasional new building without giving preferences to legacies or the children of wealthy donors. Maybe Harvard should try that to recover some of its credibility as a selective school that you can't buy your way into.
121
@Bill F MIT does not have ethnic and gender studies.
8
@Bill F
If you think MIT -- or ANY college (private or public) -- doesn't take account of donors, big-names, and connections, I've got a nice, gently-used bridge to sell you in Brooklyn!
9
@DL
MIT does have Women's and Gender Studies, as well as a robust language arts program. MIT is not all about robots and computer science.
10
Harvard is a private university and can set standards for admissions any way it wants. That it seeks a diverse balanced student body is its own desire for the reasons it wants. Public universities are another matter as all pay into their care and development.
19
@North Carolina "Harvard is a private university and can set standards for admissions any way it wants."
Theoretically, yes. But, if Harvard wants to accept Federal Grant monies (NSF, NIH, NIMH), those come with strings. Where Federal money goes so do Federal requirements on the institutions that accept it.
38
@North CarolinaNo. Harvard can not do what it wants just because its private. Not when taxpayers massively subsidize it via tax write-offs for donations and taxpayer funded research like NIH, NEA, etc that gives overhead to the administration.
6
In a nutshell, the "edges" referred to in the article are:
1. ALDC (athletes; legacies; dean's special list especially potential big donor families; children of faculty/staff).
2. "Sparse country" origin (boonies/rural areas).
3. Appealing personal qualities (effervescence, charity, maturity, strength of character).
4. Compelling life story.
These criteria apply not just to Harvard but to every private and public college with a high degree of selectivity (i.e., many more applicants than openings). To put it another way, applicants who fit one or more of these categories would have an increased chance of admission to a selective school.
Most of these criteria are not easily modified, the way PSAT scores can be improved by tutoring, so I predict there will be an increase of analogous programs offering coaching in how to convey effervescence, maturity, charity and strength of character, and how to dramatize one's life story. In other words, acting schools for college applicants.
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@Ro Ma
There are already ways to game the system. Schools keep track of "contacts", so the more contacts your kid racks up, the more interest supposedly shown. Visiting open houses, touring campus, and ESPECIALLY becoming known to faculty are important. Emails and letters to specific faculty, followed up by real conversations of the academic program, is an excellent way to learn more about any university. It will also improve your admissions chances.
2
Harvard wants students who wil enrich and challenge other students’ life view. I would bet that Megan was not forced to spend Saturdays studying how to max out the SAT. This does not make for a well rounded person or someone other Harvard students may learn personal qualities from other than a drive to succeed.
I know a girl who was offered early acceptance to Harvard, Princeton and Yale. Her SATs and grades were exceptional, but what set her apart was that she came from an impoverished Appalachian family of 12 children, who relied on food stamps to eat. No one in her family went to college and most didn’t finish high school. She may have overcome other obstacles I don’t know about, but few Harvard applicants come from families so poor that there aren’t enough shoes for the school age children to wear to go to school, so the shoes are rotated. If sparse is defined as an area which generates no applicants, dirt poor Appalachia would qualify.
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@Bathsheba Robie
I recall a prospective student may only apply early decision to one of these schools, Harvard, Princeton, or Yale. They communicate with each other and make only one early decision offer.
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@Bathsheba Robie
Are you suggesting that this strawman of a student spending their Saturdays in SAT test-prep is representative of Asian-American applicants? Forgive me if I am drawing false conclusions from your comment, but that's my first impression given that this case is about whether Harvard has discriminated against Asian-Americans.
Even for those that do go through rigorous test prep, why would this preclude them from being well rounded or having other strong personal qualities? I admire the girl you mentioned and her ability to succeed despite her family's impoverished background. The question is not whether Asian Americans should be admitted over hardworking students from impoverished backgrounds (which I would actually argue is representative of many Asians' backgrounds as well). Rather, the issue at hand is whether Harvard discriminated against Asians by assuming they were a monolithic group of one-note, test-taking machines, dismissing any other extracurricular achievements as only a drive to succeed in college admittance rather than personal passion or significant achievement.
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@Bathsheba Robie I'm not sure that you understand the purpose of this court case. The whole argument of this case is that getting great SAT scores and being a well-rounded, passionate, and creative individual are not mutually exclusive.
When these traits of hard work and dedication are applied to any other race, these are positive qualities to have. When applied to Asians, they are now seen as robotic sheep without a speck of individualism or distinguishing or unique qualities. If a white or black person got perfect SAT scores, would they be more likely to be seen as drones who spent their Saturdays only studying and not having lives? I find that to be an unfair generalization placed on solely on East and South Asians.
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So, Asians in "sparse country" need higher scores than whites in "sparse country" to be invited to apply? Yikes. Given that they are likely attending the same schools, this is problematic.
Also, let's be clear -- the statistical analysis shows a MUCH bigger bump for A.L.D.C.'s than for "sparse country" kids or kids who have overcome obstacles/are low SES. The size of the bump is missing in this article. The omission obscures just how much bigger the A.L.D.C. bump is than any other of these bumps.
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@Anon
If Asian kids want to get into Harvard, they need to drop their flutes and violins and take up sports, drama, writing, or literally any other side-activity that is not Math club that will set them apart from the thousands of other Asian students with their exact same credentials.
The worst enemy of Asian kids isn't admissions boards; it's their own parents, who force them to do exactly the same things as every other Asian kids, which means they do not stand out.
If you are an Asian tiger parent and your kid hates math and wants to try sports or ceramics or theater instead, LET THEM. And let them excel there instead of in first chair violin or piano.
Asian culture emphasizes "fitting in" with the group, but America culture rejects that notion. And if you want your kid to go to a top American university, you must think like an American.
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@Anon I completely agree with your concern that Asians in sparse country need higher scores than whites in sparse country to be invited to apply. Yikes ideed!
I also feel compelled to note that the huge size of the ALDC bump is addressed, at least briefly, in the article: " ALDCs make up only about 5 percent of applicants but 30 percent of admitted students."
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@Jane
I'm an Asian parent and I agree with you. My shy child who is not an "A.L.D.C" was admitted to Harvard. However, my child did go to Math club because she loved it.
2
I don't see how anyone could possibly buy the "noble pursuit" argument when Harvard perpetuates the exact opposite of what this country is supposed to stand for by accepting legacies and the children of wealthy donors. The argument that they know best is too convenient.
My hope was that this court case would bring more attention to the unfairness of such legacy and wealthy benefactor policies that Harvard applies while talking about of both sides of their mouth. Sadly, it doesn't seem like there's enough discussion of this injustice.
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@Vincent Freeman - as a graduate of Harvard, they know that without some legacy preference, or more accurately, in the event they don't accept at least one of my kids, all future donations will immediately cease. Why would I support an institution that rejects my own kids?!? I wouldn't! And neither would many alums.
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@DRS
Plenty of other schools have no backdoor legacy and wealthy benefactor policies and they survive.
Harvard will always get plenty of donations (from graduates) and the existing endowment fund is north of $37 billion.
I'm a graduate of another school that has a policy against such favoritism and it is doing just fine.
Frankly, I expect a better response from a Haaarvard graduate.
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@DRS - More donations are critical to support such a poor institution. The endowment is still less than 40 billion dollars. What is Harvard to do? I am a Harvard alum, and when I get a donor solicitation, I think that I am the one who should be sending one to them.
It is crazy to think that Harvard needs more money than they already have.
As pointed out by others, their neighbor in Cambridge (MIT) does fine without legacy admissions, and even has a respectable endowment.
10
Not hard to get into my college! Open admissions community college. If we didn't exist many of our students wouldn't even go to college. They are underprepared, first-generation students from disadvantaged backgrounds. And many are high-achieving students from limited means who transfer on to higher degrees or graduate and go to well-paying (to us ordinary people). We have students of all ages, backgrounds, colors, ethnicities, talents, family situations...we have problems with hunger and homelessness, domestic violence...our students have struggles that are unimaginable to the vast majority of upper tier college students. Community colleges are the most important colleges in the country. Just sayin'....
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@MMNY - True. Your statement reflects the real world. Many an eventual high achiever got their higher ed start in Community Colleges, or at least took a course or two there.
8
WHAT ?????? How is any of this legitimate ...
"Harvard gives advantages to recruited athletes (A’s); legacies (L’s), or the children of Harvard graduates; applicants on the dean’s or director’s interest list (D’s), which often include the children of very wealthy donors and prominent people, mostly white; and the children (C’s) of faculty and staff. ALDCs make up only about 5 percent of applicants but 30 percent of admitted students."
But giving any preference for African Americans or other Minorities is giving them an "unfair advantage" based on race. Something is very very wrong here when it is OK to be given an advantage if you are lucky enough to be born to advantaged mostly White wealthy parents but not in your parents are Black or Latino.
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@AH2 - actually, nothing is wrong. the ALDCs advantage is not based on RACE. It's not improper for a school to use criteria that it chooses to select students, whether it's because it needs a violinist or a quarterback or new building. What is improper, and un-American frankly, is choosing people or denying others based on the COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.
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@AH2 I think you didn't read the whole story. Blacks and Hispanics are given an advantage upfront in that the cut off for PSAT scores is lower than for whites or Asians.
1
This article makes me question my defense of affirmative-action type initiatives. It seems like the quest for a diverse student body has led to admissions as a highbrow beauty pageant. The intensely personal focus on each student perverse. The idea that a school would create such a file on me as a prospective student makes my skin crawl.
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@RCheli The problem is that they have 40,000 applicants for 1600 seats--would it be better just to put all the names in a hat?
5
Yes, divide the applicants into two piles: qualified and not qualified. Divide that pile into two piles: male and female. Pick one name from each pile until the class is filled thereby eliminating the affirmative action that is white, wealthy, and entitled.
4
@nw2
Several of points.
1) I went to a 'Little Three' college early admission in the 70's. Then Harvard had a 3 week reading period at the end of each semester. Most of us understood that Harvard undergraduates did all their academic work during that 3 week period. Frankly there were then and now better universities and colleges for undergraduates to attend.
2) When I did not get admitted to Yale, I went to see Yale admissions. I was only 1 of 2 rejects to want to speak to them directly. During the discussion, the Yale admissions officer admitted that the university would probably be as better served by throwing all the applicant files down the stairs of the admissions building and picking them up randomly until they met the number required for the incoming class. This does not get to the need, however, to search for the exceptional potential students from non-traditional backgrounds (the "sparse country" inter alia) mentioned in the article.
3) the admissions criteria mentioned here differ little for any selective university education in the U.S. What difference there may be will be by degree, not on fundamentals.
6
Harvard is an impressive school, defined by its academic rigor and international prestige. But, the obsession of this paper and its readers with one institution is deeply troubling. In fact, I would go as far to say that this obsession is emblematic of our increasingly stratified society.
There are hundreds, maybe even thousands, of very sound colleges and universities in this country, where a student with a mere scintilla of ambition can obtain a strong and diversified education. Such institutions, those beyond the Ivies, are the backbone of our ever dwindling middle class, as they have historically served as a launching pad for economic mobility.
I would encourage this paper to devote its massive resources and influence to covering schools beyond Harvard, focusing on their admissions policies, financial aid packages, and graduation rates so that education becomes more available to the masses.
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@Mark. this article is about Harvard because the DOJ put Harvard on trial questioning its admissions policies and alleging discrimination.
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@TB The suit you reference was not brought by the DOJ, but a private attorney, though has been supported by the Trump Administration. That aside, I fully expect such a case to be covered in the press. However, there has been a steady stream of articles about Harvard going well beyond the case. There is an undeniable fascination with this school, which I think is unhealthy, as described in my post.
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@Mark
I completely agree with your observations. That said, Harvard has been closely watched by the main stream press for as long as I can remember, not just during this trial. It comes with the territory of being the oldest, richest, most widely-known university in the U.S. I suspect the volume of coverage in The Times is at least partly because many of its journalists are Harvard graduates.
6