Can you please provide more information regarding the drop in efficacy of the vaccine as each month passes? I am a physician and have never seen data to support this statement. Flu deaths have already been seen in the US in October so to suggest people might wait til November because there immunity wanes seems like a poor idea. The vaccine is not perfection providing protection from illness but it does have benefit from severe illnes and death so the message should be any vaccine is better yhan none. I would opt for October among my patients.
Jack • 4 hours ago
Oh, the irony. Americans prefer to avoid the (relatively low risk) flu shot, putting them at greater danger from the (relatively high risk) flu. Blah, blah, blah. On Fri. 15 Sept. 2018, at approximately 3PM, I went to CVS for my annual flu shot. Two hours later my bones began to ache, I became listless, I was in the throes of the worse flu, etc. Saturday, the same. ditto for Sunday. For an entire week, I was miserable. After it subsided, and I thought I was in the clear, the rotten, lousy feelings returned. I called the pharmacist who told me it was impossible, because the shot was 'inactive," whatever that is supposed to mean. On and off for a month, I was the one who became "inactive" because of the shot. I was sluggish, sleepy out of sorts because of the shot. So when I read that flu shots don't or can't give a person the flu I am here to strenuously differ.
You can differ, but you didn't get the flu from the shot. Maybe elsewhere, before getting the shot, or maybe an immunogenic reaction to the shot.@Jack
6
I began getting a flu shot in 1996, after a bout of flu at the end of 1994 had put me in bed for two weeks, and left me with a low grade fever and respiratory infection that continued for two months,
Since then I’ve had a shot each year and the flu only once: in May 2016, clearly because the virus against which I’d been innoculated in the previous fall had mutated. My MD and his staff were down too, for three weeks,
Yet in the intervening 20 years, not only had I not had flu, but my overall incidence of respriratory infections - colds, bronchitis, sinus infections - had dropped dramatically. I was now getting 1 or 2 viral diseases a year, not 4 or 5.
I’ve just had the senior flu shot, for the first time. Very sore arm for 2 days. Felt out of sorts and achy, under the weather. On the third day, I woke up in a sweat - whatever it was had broken. No interference with work and family activities.
Flu shots were so successful in preventing my flu that when I did get the flu, in 2016, I did not recognize the symptoms and went to the emergency room. It had been that long since I had been that sick. 20 years. I’ll take 20 years per vaccination cycle any day.
5
One statistic that I did not see in many of the comments is that last year, 2017, about 80,000 people died from flu in the US. Not from the shot but from the flu. That included children and adults. I always get my flu shot at Von's pharmacy here in SDiego; Von's is a Safeway store. and I only had a sore arm once for a day or two. Had mine in late October. I guess if you want to verify that fatality number the Centers for Disease Control web site should tell you.
2
I am an RN and required to get a flu shot by my employer. We begin offering the vaccine to patients each October. I wasn't always diligent about insisting that my husband and child also receive it each year. Then, last year, I read that approximately 100 children had died from the flu, most of whom did not have a flu shot. I brought my child the next day for a shot and made sure my husband received as well. I have had the flu a few times even with the annual shot, but I believe the illness is less severe when you have been vaccinated. That seems to have been the case last year with the child flu deaths. My family has now been vaccinated for the coming flu season.
3
I do not get the flu vaccine, and never have. Take vitamin D instead. It is far safer and more effective than the vaccine. Vit D works against all strains of flu, unlike the vaccine.
At first sign of illness, take 250,000iu vitamin A. This activates the immune sustem quickly, shortening or stopping the illness. Very effective and proven For several viral illnesses.
1
@dan s Thank you for this great tip on taking a large dose of vitamin A. I don't get flu shots. The JBHandley blog shows plenty of research about vaccinations containing aluminum "adjuvants" that
do more harm than good.
1
I've gone back and forth about the flu vaccine over the years, and this article only increases my skepticism. In defending flu vaccines with absurdly low effectiveness rates, public health officials have long told us that even if the vaccine doesn't end up protecting against this year's strain, it may protect against a future strain, so protection is cumulative over the years. Now we hear that the shot the nurses jab into you in early September won't even protect you into January, when you actually need it.
So which is it? What is the point in getting a vaccine that may not correspond to the strain going around and even if it does, it may wear off by the time you need it?
I am pro vaccine for stuff like measles and polio but this flu shot thing strikes me as a scam. Too many shifting rationalizations.
Not to mention the year of the swine flu, when they knew the strain going around was H1N1 but didn't have enough vaccine for the general population, so they gave us all the wrong-strain flu shot just to feel like they complied with policy...and predictably, we all got sick with the swine flu. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence in public health.
7
The same folks who jump you at the door with this year's must-have flu jab are the same ones who want you to take statins to lower your cholesterol and PPIs to get rid of your gastric reflux. Public, educate yourselves!
Vaccination is admittedly a polarized and controversial issue, but in the case of the influenza vaccine, the evidence is relatively straightforward: it reduces your risk from 2% to 1%. Several large reviews have been published in the prestigious Cochrane Library on the efficacy of influenza vaccine in various populations. It’s difficult to reconcile the almost hysterical promotion of the flu shot by medical authorities with the results of these studies.
Conclusions from the 2018 analysis? (1/3 of studies were industry funded, but that's down significantly from prior analyses):
"Healthy adults who receive inactivated parenteral influenza vaccine rather than no vaccine probably experience less influenza, from just over 2% to just under 1% (moderate-certainty evidence). ... Certainty of evidence for the small reductions in hospitalisations and time off work is low. Protection against influenza and influenza like illnesses in mothers and newborns was smaller than the effects seen in other populations. Vaccines increase the risk of a number of adverse events, including a small increase in fever. The protective effect of vaccination in pregnant women and newborns is also very modest."
3
I wish you’d said back in September: Need a flu shot? Wait a while. I used to get it as early as possible, now wait until late September, next year will wait even longer.
3
I have knowledge of 2 people who had severe psychological reactions to tamiflu. Any thoughts on that?
6
@Allison Vitamins A, D, And C are far safer and more effective. Take large dose of A, like 250,000 units at first sign of illness.
2
If you have ever had the flu believe me you would get the shot. I distinctly remember sitting in the doctors office waiting room crying my eyes out because I just couldn’t believe a person could feel this bad and not die!
4
I have shown these comments about the vaccine "losing potency" to medical doctors at my clinic; they all said that is simply not true. If the vaccine was known to lose potency, especially at these amazingly high rates, it simply would not be made available so early in the flu season, as I was told.
Based on the comments of these actual doctors, I express concern about what appears to be misinformation being put out; their explanation makes complete sense.
10
I don't consider late October or early November procrastination. In fact, it's when it's recommended in SC, where the weather is still in the 60s at night this week. But even when I lived in New England, my doctor advised me to wait until this time of year.
Just because a pharmacy wants to tout products year round doesn't mean that's the time to buy it.
2
Several people have asked if one should get two flu shots in one flu season. The CDC says no:
"In adults, studies have not shown a benefit from getting more than one dose of vaccine during the same influenza season, even among elderly persons with weakened immune systems. Except for some children, only one dose of flu vaccine is recommended each season."
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/misconceptions.htm
3
The CDC says to get the shot in autumn, preferably before November. They also say there is no benefit to receiving a 2nd shot, even for the elderly/weak. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2018-2019.htm
1
The article only mentioned 2 flu antivirals — Tamiflu and Relenza. Well, there’s one more called Rapivab.
Kitty-thank you for that recommendation. I do have a strong science background, having completed a BA, BS, and a doctorate in veterinary medicine. I practiced medicine for some decades and witnessed the systemic compromises and chronic diseases that were brought about by interfering with immune systems via indiscriminate vaccine use. My prediction is that, if we are open and honest in evaluation of all the impacts of our ever expanding vaccination efforts, we will some day rue the practice of mass vaccination, just as we now regret the practice of radiation for sore throats in the 50’s. I encourage everyone to keep an open mind, listen closely to those with whom you might disagree on the issue, and respect the right of others to make their own health choices —stop accusing them of being selfish for those choices. I have found homeopathy to be useful not only in preventing acute diseases like the flu, but also in treating acute diseases quite effectively (far more so than pharmaceuticals), and in dealing with chronic disease states — some of which are brought on by or exacerbated by the injudicious use of vaccines.
7
@Educated Anti-vaxxer I,too, use homeopathy and LOVE it. I took Occilococcinum last year and was about 90% better by the next day. When I had food poisoning several years ago, I used homeopathy and was completely well in about 2 hours.
1
Although at age 67 I have never had the vaccine - or the flu - I had resolved to get it this year, if only to contribute to herd immunity.
UNTIL, that is, last spring when I suffered health changing side effects from a PPSV23 vaccine that I am still hoping I can recover from someday. If pneumonia is worse than my reaction I suppose I am glad I got the shot. Call me selfish, but it’s the last one.
7
I am a registered nurse. I think the flu vaccine is a fallacy. It is ineffective and not safe. Endless biased studies, It’s a big lie. If you crunch the numbers the effective rate ends up falling within the margin of error. Oh and by the way to get rid of the egg allergy they now use insect dna as one of the growth mediums. Not to mention the mercury, detergents and formaldehyde that’s in the vaccine to. If this treatment modality was anything else it would have been thrown out already. It’s a multi billion dollar industry the pharmaceutical industry is trying desperately to keep afloat. Doesn’t anyone else see what is going on here? The vast majority of people do not question and roll up their sleeve. We should be working to strengthen our immune systems not take poison for profit. I wear the mask this time of the year because i have to; it’s a scare tactic for us healthcare personal. And it violates my hippa protection.. No studies have shown a mask to prevent a virus from infecting another that I am not even sick with. Last year I cannot tell you how many people we had that had received the flu vaccine and had the flu when they got admitted. Question this vaccine. Strengthen your immune system for real protection.
7
@Andrea, a nurse who is a vaccine denier? Your “science” is downright scary.
11
Terrifying what you must be trying to tell your patients. Please keep your mask on and stay away from me or my elderly parents , my aunt on chemo therapy , or better yet find a new occupation that does not require your “scientific” knowledge
4
@Andrea I agree with everything you wrote. Vaccines, including flu vaccines are all about the profits. At JBHandleyblog there's plenty of information showing that autism is caused by the aluminum adjuvants in vaccinations. Of course, the drug companies know that but couldn't care less as long as they keep raking in the money.
2
I have been getting the flu shot since the first year it was offered. I have never gotten the flu since. That's not just dumb luck. I got mine the last week in November and I feel perfectly safe that it will not get the flu!
2
One important detail left out is that someone can have the flu yet not have any symptoms.
2
@Luis Gonzalez
Yes, and they can pass it along, too.
So, is it worth getting a second shot. Article raises question but provides no answer to the logical question!!
It's dismaying, but not surprising, to read in the comments that rapid waning is news to most readers. See PMID 30204855 at Pubmed website. That little tidbit should have been included in the "information" the provider is required to pass along in order for a recipient to give "informed consent." Readers likely also don't know that the whooping cough vaccine protection wanes in as little as 18 months. Readers also likely don't know that the flu shot does not prevent mucosal infection -- that means if you're lucky and the shot protects YOU, you still colonize the virus and can transmit to others. Same goes for whooping cough vaccine. Neither vaccine contributes to 'herd immunity' because both create unwitting infection transmitters. These #'s at Pubmed will lead you to some published studies to explore. PMID 24277828, 23413420, 22423139, 25270645, 29348203, 24277828
8
@Bernadette, both my husband and an got whooping cough several years ago, as over-fifties. Have you ever been on the verge of suffocation (near drowning, or an assault)? That is what it feels like to have whooping cough. You cough and cough until there is no air in your lungs, and that “whoop” is you trying to force air back it. It is absolute hell. I bruised my ribs from coughing so hard. Any protection against that disease, which could easily kill an older or weaker person, is a good thing. I wish I had been offered a whooping cough vaccine at age 50. I wasn’t.
8
@Passion for Peaches I am very sorry for your experience, and glad you recovered. Whooping is miserable to experience and potentially dangerous -- which is why it is important to know that the vaccine is for personal protection only. I you get the vaccine, you may protect yourself from severe symptoms (although it does not protect agains the strain now most commonly circulating) for 18 months-5 years, but even if you are protected, if exposed, you will colonize and unwittingly spread infection. That's important to know. It's also important to know that natural immunity last longer than artificially-induced immunity. We are moving into an era where children are protected from once common childhood illnesses that used to leave them immune for long into adulthood. But vaccine immunity wanes far more quickly, and so adults are now catching infections such as whooping cough and chicken pox. It's a trade-off that public health agencies did not foresee and are not properly preparing for.
1
I always feel horrid the day after a flu shot. Aches, mild fever, dull headache, malaise, exhaustion (my husband has no reaction, darn him). It’s still worth it to me to lose a day if it lessens my chance of getting the flu, though. Who has time to be knocked out and miserable for a week, or ten days for a really bad bout?
3
This information conflicts with supposedly official notifications that earlier is better. I am wondering whether anyone really knows about the timing.
3
@SchnauzerMom
Right. CDC says timing doesn't matter.
@SWchnauzerMom
Why not call your primary care physician with your question? Or call any hospital in your area if you don't have a PCP. I know my doctor told me to get it in Oct. this year, vs. November. I had pneumonia in Nov. 2017.
I followed this advice last year. I am allergic to thimerosal so need a thimerasole free shot. Everyone was out of that by November. Didn't get a shot, got the flu. This year I got my shot in September.
4
Got my first flu shot last year at the local pharmacy. My arm is still painful today in the area where I received the shot in. There is a hard nodule in the surface of the muscle. It was almost debilitating right after I got it. Felt like someone hit me hard with a baseball bat. Won't be doing this again anytime soon.
4
@MS Sounds as if the person who gave you the shot was inexperienced. Many people have side effects after the shot but not 'debilitating' as you experienced.
Try not to give up on getting the flu shot because of that one experience. Go somewhere else -- to a pharmacy that gives a lot of shots year after year -- and ask first how much experience the person has had. Only agree to the shot if you feel they have enough experience.
Good luck.
2
@cynic2, Thank you for your advice. I should not give up but I am most wary of getting another.
@MS
Run the other way, and never look back. Consider yourself lucky.
2
Dr. Osterholm is a very good physician, researcher and public health advocate; however, the scientific study that was the basis of his comment to the writer should have footnotes and referenced so the readers may read it and decide for themselves. Otherwise, she is quoting another “old wives’ tale,” and is this not providing a service to the public with her article.
9
Im a health care professional and never heard this before. I often go to the CDC and NIH websites and never saw this info either. It has always been recommended to get flu vaccines starting in July or as soon as available. Honestly I never started getting the vaccine until 3 years ago after I had the worst flu of my life, it scared me enough into starting to get the vaccine. Wary though I am
7
@Rebecca S.Addendum all the years I never got the flu vaccine, I had the flu 2-3 times in many years, but like I said that last one was a doozy.
1
@Rebecca S. I'm surprised you haven't heard this info before, especially since you are a health care professional. I've lived in 14 different states over a few decades, and have heard many national and local tv news reports stating that the effectiveness wears off over the course of the flu season. It makes perfect sense that effectiveness would wear off over time. After all, if it didn't, we wouldn't have to keep getting shots every year.
2
The shot "wearing off" is not exactly the reason a new shot is required each year. As time passes the major flu virus evolves, making previous vaccines ineffective. Thus, each year a new vaccine must be developed in an attempt to match the new strain. The only way to become immune to the new strain (without actually catching the flu) is to get the new vaccine.
4
To Joe/NJ below, and in general about shoulder injury complications from flu vaccine:
@joe
I'm so sorry to hear of your shoulder complication.
I had a close call with one two flu seasons ago, and this year, am still in the watch and wait phase, as the shot was given so darn high.
And as someone with 'shaky' shoulders anyway, and who endured three (3!) rounds of painful and long-time-to-heal 'frozen shoulder' about 18 years ago, I am very aware of the concern and disruption of a debilitating shoulder condition or injury.
So, every year, I explain -- and essentially beg -- that administering nurse stay as far away from shoulder joint / socket as possible.
And very year is a different result.
One thing all people should know going in: the way to give this vaccine (and all?) locations are taught is to find the landmark 'notch' where shoulder meets arm, and move down 'three fingers' width.
Imagine a petite nurse with tiny fingers ... her or his '3 fingers' will be considerably different than a slightly larger person / hand size.
It seems a terrible standard to me, and because I MUST receive the vaccine, without fail, again next year, I will advocate even more strenuously for a greater distance between the two points.
Joe, I hope your shoulder improves / has improved to the point of being less bothersome and with good or complete function.
4
Now they tell us; in November.
14
If you got a flu vaccine in September, should you get a second one in Nov to have greater protection in the peak of flu season in Jan/Feb?
13
"Immunity tends to wane by 20 percent a month,"
Oh great. I literally never heard this before and I try to stay read up.
I am not remotely against flue shots but the actual effectiveness of them when all possible factors are considered makes them 10%-20% effective at best. Yipes.
1. Keep Sanigel at all times with you and use it a lot during flue season. A lot. No really. A lot.
2. Dont touch your face with your hands.
3. Avoid public bathrooms unless truly needed.
4. Avoid fast food places == every surface is a problem and too many people there. Plus the workers making food that is only lightly microwaved.
7
@K Henderson, PIN keypads are some of the nastiest things in public places today.
2
If the effectiveness of the vaccine degrades 20 percent a month and I received it late last month, should I get a second dose in January? Risky?
14
Surprised that the article did not cover the problem recently reported of people skipping the vaccine last year and, thus, increasing the flu's spread and lowering the effectiveness percentage.
KEY POINT: You should get the flu shot not just to protect yourself, but others.
OMISSION: There also needed to be a discussion of the high dose flu shot, which is often recommended for the elderly and those with weakened immune systems.
Hope the reporter writes a follow-up covering these other, key issues.
10
Flu vaccine ingredients: Formaldehyde... aluminum....mercury. How much is safe to inject into a developing nervous system? Ask your doctor.
8
@Educated Anti-vaxxer
I once wondered the same things. There's an intriguing guide called, "Chemistry: The Central Science." You can download the PDF online or buy it used. It has taken me over a year to get a feel for it, but has really put down a foundation to be able to understand some of these things. Highly recommend.
2
@Educated Anti-vaxxer. Since you didn't provide a web site, here's one that addresses these issues, and many more:
http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2013/10/28/setting-the-record-straight-dubunking-all-the-flu-vaccine-myths/#mercury
1
@Educated Anti-vaxxer
Where do you get your misinformation from?
Formaldehyde and aluminum were once used as adjuvants for vaccines, but there is only one flu vaccine in the US, Fluad, that uses an adjuvant, and that adjuvant is squalene, a natural oil. Fluad is only aproved for the elderly, but the evidence behind its additional benefit is weak so it's not usually used. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/vaccines.htm
Mercury (Thimerosal) is used to prevent bacterial contamination of the vaccine, but it's only used in the 10-dose vials, and most vaccinations use single-dose sealed syringes. Doctors established long ago that Thimerosal was harmless, but they gave up trying to convince people like you and left it out of the single-dose vaccines.
Yes, ask your doctor. Most doctors are happy to explain the benefits and safety of vaccines, but they don't usually have time for a long debate with someone whose mind is already made up.
Who are you going to believe -- a real MD or some anonymous guy on the internet?
10
Didn't delay the shot, but couldn’t get one til the other day. First, the condo association where I live set up two days to take advantage of flu shots. A friend had forgotten the first day, Monday, so I said I’d wait til Wednesday. Oops! Major typo in the newsletter announcing the second day.
Going to lunch two days later with a friend near a Safeway offering flu shots. Couldn’t take advantage before lunch because the pharmacist was also at lunch. Stopped after lunch, and surprise, surprise! The pharmacist was still at lunch, and he had a lot of prescriptions to fill when he got back before he could give anybody a flu shot.
No problem, the condo association was having an event featuring health, social, and cultural opportunities for "seniors." Couldn’t be there because of a schedule conflict.
Last Friday stopped at Lucky supermarket. They weren’t giving more that day, but come in Monday, early. The pharmacist's assistant was delayed. Came back two hours later and got the shot. Painless. That woman must have military experience. They give more shots in one day that other health providers give in a month.
So, by accident, I timed it right.
5
An alternative to the flu shot is to use homeopathy.
I am a physician in practice for over 25 years. I do not vaccinate and do not give flu shots. My patients rarely get the flu.
Why?
There are several ways to help yourself. One is the best selling over the counter European flu medicine, Oscillococcinum. This homeopathic medicine which is available without prescription in CVS and Whole Foods, to name a few, acts as a prophylactic for flu. I have patients take a tiny dose ( less than the recommended one on the packing) once a month during flu season.
In my area, there is also a physician who has a homeopathic pharmacist take the CDC flu shot each year and prepare it as a homeopathic medicine. These, in turn, are added together over the years. No one in my practice and the others in the area that dispense this, has ever reported getting the flu.
Many people actually have adverse reactions to the flu vaccines. And, of course, the CDC often does not guess right as to which strains of the flu will attack in the coming months.
Buyer beware or, in this case, think before you endanger your health by getting a flu shot.
11
I'm sure that your anecdotal evidence counts for more than that assembled by the entire scientific and medical communities!
This sounds much like the old saw about whistling to keep away the elephants!
If this were such a viable and ultra-effective solution, where are the scientific studies of it? Where is the randomized field test of it? Where is your submission with your colleague of an essay or opinion piece to a leading journal, popular or medical?
I know plenty of people who swear that taking Vitamin C shortens their colds. They typically tell me their colds last “only” 3-5 days. Which, of course, is the same duration as for people who do nothing!
41
@Eugene Devon Taken at first hint of a cold and in large enough doses, Vitamin C has cured/prevented more colds than I can count. Have you ever tried it?
1
Where are the studies that giving flu shots to six month old babies and pregnant women are safe? There are none. It's big business.
1
Doctors are like any other professional except they can deal in lifesaving activities.
Having said that, just like any other professional it falls in the three thirds categories (one can argue the exact percents).
1/3 of the time they can help you, even save your life, 1/3 of the time they can't help you or tell you what you already know, 1/3 of the time they can up sell you, harm you or even kill you.
This flu shot falls into the latter third imo.
I always see after the season, the dismal success rates of the shot. I cannot tell you how many people I know who got the shot came down with a bad case of the flu, not to mention sore arms and other bad side effects. I got my first and last one about five yrs ago in my safe doctors office, with countless people coughing on me. Seven days after the shot, I came down with the worst case of the flu in my adult life.
Don't get me wrong. The medical profession can help you or even save your life but in this case until proven otherwise, to me it is a big scam by the Big Phrama industry to make billions of dollars for no good reason.
7
@Paul
There may be a perception bias that makes you feel this way. It's obvious when the shot doesn't work- you get the flu, but there's no way for you to know when it worked. If you combine this with the fact that there are many colds and other things that can be confused with the flu, it makes a lot of sense that you'd be skeptical about its effectiveness. You would have to look a broad-level studies to see the impact. Vaccines are perhaps the most effective tool that has come out of modern medicine.
20
@Eileen- thank you for you reply, partially agree. Yes some medicine, operations, procedures are life savers or can really help other but others are scams from some unneeded expensive procedures like MRI's, Cat Scans, etc. etc. to useless PSA tests that do much more harm then good to men etc. etc.
I do respect Jane Brody. She calls out the medical industry many times on what I said above.
However, I have looked at the flu shot both studying data, my own experience and those of countless friends and family and have come to the conclusion that it is a money scam by big pharmaceutical and is all but useless as of now.
3
Trust that you are not saying that the flu shot gave them the flu!
Perhaps, you are saying that going to get a flu shot at a busy office where there are sick people leads some to catching something. That seems like an obvious possibility, but wear a mask if you are concerned, don't sit next to people who are coughing or sneezing, wash your hands thoroughly, and take better precautions the next time!
9
So the obvious question, unanswered in this story: should you get re-vaccinated if you got a shot in September? Especially if you are over 65.
24
Short answer: no, per the CDC. Not necessary, and no benefit. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2018-2019.htm
1
When discussing the hard surfaces on which flu germs continue to live, don’t forget your cell phone. It’s at least as dirty as your hands. Clean it often.
16
I am all in favor of hearing different points of view, BUT I draw the line - and I wish the NY Times drew the line there, too - at giving copious comment space to anti-vaxxers who are spreading misinformation (which is also dangerous misinformation, in many cases).
The Times has no reason to keep approving comments from people who are spreading information that is PROVABLY FALSE, and which could lead to illness and possibly even death for some people.
If the anti-vaxxer's want a platform, send them over to unfair and absolutely unbalanced Faux News, please.
69
@L instead of calling them anti-vaxxers maybe they should be called what they really are which is anti-science and conspiracy lovers!
They go on and on on how vaccines are dangerous or money grabs by big pharma and how they will never allow a vaccine into thier bodies!
Yet these same people will put thier bodies into an a large mental tube and trust that the airplane is mechanically sound and the pilots are well trained and sober etc.
Anti-vaxxers must long for the horse and buggy era!
24
@Nick Rivers: Actually, Nick, *I* call them "crazy" but the Times won't print that word, apparently. They certainly ARE anti-science and conspiracy lovers, and it wouldn't surprise me if they all think the earth is flat as well.
For the Times to give them so much comment space, IMO, acts to legitimize their off-the-wall POV's. I personally don't think these people should be encouraged by the NY Times. I read the NY Times for facts, not for craziness.
12
@L Whoa - who is more dangerous - an anti-vaxxer or an anti-free speecher?
1
Last year my local pharmacies ran out of high dose flu vaccine by October. This year I made the long drive into my physcian's office in a major hospital for one in mid October. Locally, the flu was already circulating in late August. In the past I always got one in November because of a history of getting the flu in late March until I late vaccinated.
My point is that each year it is different, your plans are unique, your immunity is distinct, and the shots are better than nothing. Having had one extremely bad and inconvenient (during doctoral exams at the end of many years of study) case of the flu, make it like other avoidant strategies in your life. Oh, and be kind to those around you with iffy immune systems.
12
@poslug
Well stated. Even if you think you're not at risk, look around your friends, family and colleagues and think: could I help keep them well?
It's essence of community, and also the idea behind 'herd immunity.'
3
I got the flu shot for the first time on Friday August 26. Got flu like symptoms the next night. Got full-fledged flu by Monday. Got laryngitis Monday night. Lost voice for 2 days. The flu like symptoms are STILL WITH ME!
I'm very healthy and take care of myself well, I have no kids, I worked at home so I wasn't exposed to the population as much as most people are. I haven't had the flu in over 20 years. Now that I work with young children I felt it necessary to get one.
I'm sure medical experts will explain that it's not the shot. I don't care... I'm still mot getting it again.
5
We learned that while our pharmacy provides seniors with the high dose version of the vaccine, our doctor's office is only giving the standard dose -without telling their patients.
1
@R. Anderson: I don't know about SC, but in NYC the senior dose is only TRIVALENT, while the regular dose is QUADRIVALENT - so I opted for the regular dose.
And maybe I'll get a second flu shot in December - which is something Jane Brody did not address.
3
Begged question: is it then best to get early vacc (Aug.) AND late vacc (Dec.)?
Insurance won't pay, but if one wants to out-of-pocket this addtnl protection, is that helpful?
Also, why doesn't everyone get the "higher-potency" vacc?
2
Good questions. There probably will be a shift toward higher doses in time. (The recombinant Flublok vaccine, which is available to all adults, does offer a higher dose than the traditional egg-grown vaccine.) But it’s not as clear if getting two doses weeks or months apart is equivalent—immunologically, there are reasons to think it might not be.
3
@Ann O. Dyne: Here in NYC, I was told the larger "senior dose" only was effective against THREE strains of flu, while the "regular dose" was effective against FOUR. I opted to get the regular dose.
2
The flu community has been grappling with the biological and statistical uncertainties of waning vaccine effectiveness (i.e., within-season changes in effectiveness) for years. I wish multiple sources had been consulted!
6
@Scientist Your reference to Clinical Infectious Disease journal articles was very helpful. I reviewed several studies published in August, Sept. and Oct. 2018 and came to my own conclusions, most importantly that getting a flu shot has value and that timing should be considered. But readers should read the studies and judge for themselves. Thank you.
5
My understanding is that there is no medical research showing that patients getting flu vaccine early in the season were more likely to get flu than those vaccinated later. What is the clinical basis for Dr. Osterholm's advice?
16
Well, this is frustrating, after years of being told, "get it as soon as you possibly can!"
15
@truth
My doctor always had his patients wait until the start of the season in October because of waning immunity.
2
So for those of us who got the shot in Sept/Oct should we get another shot? If so, when?
24
Since the efficacy of the vaccine depends on the virus strains in the vaccine, why does the high potency vaccine cover only 3 strains, while the standard vaccine covers 4 strains? I'd prefer the wider spectrum in lieu of the "stronger is better" vaccine, since the choice of strains covered is decided so long before the "flu virus of the year" becomes evident.
5
The trivalent vaccines are extremely effective because there is very high cross-reactivity between the third and potential fourth strain (they are the two lineages of influenza B). This is not so related to the strain prediction problem, which has more to do with picking the right kind of each of those three or four strains. But that problem in general has been overblown by the press.
6
These steps also help prevent flu transmission:
(Sung to the tune of Row, Row, Row Your Boat):
Wash, wash, wash your hands,
All throughout the day,
The more you wash, the more you rinse,
The healthier you'll stay.
Also:
Oh, Please: If you cough or sneeze, do it in your sleeves.
And: Fist Bump, don't shake hands! It's recommended by WHO (the World Health Organization). Plus, it's way cool!!
13
I’m utterly confused. We got our shots as soon as they became available, as widely advised. If that fall off rate for effectiveness is accurate, then surely the whole flu shot campaign needs revising.
30
It’s because the evidence behind waning effectiveness has been quite contested, although a recent study from Kaiser provides more support (which Osterholm references).
The CDC also fails to mention that there are quite different flu shots out there, and some (especially Flublok and the high dose Fluzone) seem to induce stronger or better immunity than others. However, the clinical trials haven’t been done yet, so there’s no official recommendation (except HD Fluzone in the aged), and most people are still getting the same old regular dose Fluzone because it’s cheaper. Improvements are slow.
8
Not all studies and opinions are black and white, what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander, one size does not fit all, not all immunize systems are created equally etc etc.
3
So does this mean that if you had your flu shot on Sept. 1st, you should get another one, especially if you are 80? If so, when? And will it be covered by Medicare?
13
This is a very good question: most insurance would allow only one per coverage period...
3
It is quite disturbing that your article failed to mention the new flu antiviral Xofluza that was recently approved by the FDA. Only one pill of Xofluxa is needed, because this antiviral, unlike Tamiflu, rapidly and dramatically reduces virus replication and virus shedding approximately 100-fold . Consequently, Xofluza should not only relieve symptoms but also should reduce transmission, the spread of the virus to others. Xofluza has been in use in Japan since March, and has been quite effective. Xofluza will soon be widely available in the US.
8
@Robert The FDA press release on Xofluza said: "there was no difference in the time to alleviation of symptoms between subjects who received Xofluza and those who received the other flu treatment."
A doctor at the hospital-affiliated group practice I use told me last month that all the physicians and staff members there get, and everyone should get, a flu shot early in the season, such as Sept./Oct., and then a *second* shot in February – because of the falloff in effectiveness that Jane Brody discusses. I had never heard of getting a second shot, and Ms. Brody doesn't mention it, but the practice's administrator told me Medicare will fully cover it, which implies to me that it is a proven, non-experimental approach.
8
It isn’t. It will be interesting to see the effects, though!
1
The immunity-loss claims made in this article just don't sound like something empirically-established.
There should be citations for bona fide studies that readers can review.
12
The following was reported in 2001 by Jane E. Brody in her Personal Health Column:
Too many older people may be accepting a cognitive and immunological decline as a normal part of aging, when it may reflect a deficiency in essential nutrients like vitamins and minerals. A simple one-a-day type supplement may be all that is needed to slow or even stem that decline, recent studies show.
In a report nearly a decade ago, Dr. Ranjit Kumar Chandra, a pediatrician and immunologist at Memorial University of Newfoundland, showed that the same supplement resulted in a significant improvement in standard immunological tests, including the number of natural killer cells and helper T-cells, the production of interleukin 2, and the antibody response to the influenza vaccine.
He also found that the supplement could restore a lagging immune response in six months, and sometimes as soon as three months. No improvement was found in those who took a dummy pill.
I miss that Jane E. Brody.
1
@F. St. Louis
Is that the time period that test were showing that coffee was bad for you? Now they say coffee is good for you.
I don't know of very many health studies that recommend or advocate the taking of supplements if you have a balanced diet. Yep the key word is "balanced diet".
My point is studies and test seem to change from year to year and who did the study/sponsored the study.
Unfortunately test, studies and research are tied to $.
4
After decades of reading and trusting Jane Brodie’s reporting, I can’t believe she wrote, and the Times published, an article with wording that serves to discourage vaccination and provides fodder for irresponsible and selfish anti-vac-ers.
I’ve been told by medical professionals and to my benefit, to get the flu shot early, as in Sept or early October, in order for my body to have time to build its immunity BEFORE flu season hits. So far, thank God, it’s served me and my family well.
(While neighbors opposed to vaccines have threatened the health of a friend with cancer and another’s young child).
And speaking of children, I doubt that the two licensed Medical Doctors who recently lost there little boy within 48 hours of him coming down with flu would agree with Ms. Brodie or the MN doctor she consulted and quoted. Their son was just days away from his flu shot appointment when he died — from the flu, and earlier in the season than your article suggests getting the vaccine. Maybe Brodie should have consulted them as well before writing this article.
8
@MSW
Our immune system is a complex as the predicting the weather.
One size does not fit all nor what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
We all don't get a cold or flu from being exposed to the virus nor do those who get the flu shot not get the flu.
4
@MSW
The death of the young boy due to flu you referred to is tragic. However, he died in December, 10 days before he was scheduled to get his flu shot on January 3.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/02/health/sidari-flu/index.html
4
Where does this column discourage people from getting vaccinated? The part where she says it may be a good idea to get the shot in November rather than September? That sentence still says to get the shot.
9
Brodie should have led with this, “the flu virus is readily transmitted to others starting the day before you develop any telltale signs of the infection, which comes on suddenly. You may be fine in the morning and feel like you’ve been hit by a truck by afternoon. A seemingly healthy child who is incubating the virus can easily transmit it to a dozen others, including teacher and parents, before they know they are sick.
After people who contract the flu think they’re well enough to resume their normal activities, they may continue to spread the virus for up to a week after they first became ill.
I’ve often heard people decline the vaccine because they once got flulike symptoms after the injection, or they came down with the flu despite it.
Facts: 1) The vaccine does not, and cannot, cause the flu. Either they were infected before they were immunized or before immunity took hold, or the fever and aches they experienced were side effects of the vaccination, not the flu itself. 2) As currently formulated, the vaccine is far from perfect. In some years, it has been as little as 20 percent effective in preventing the flu, although it may still lessen the severity of the illness and likelihood of complications.”
Then, she could mention the timing issue, preferably after also consulting a wider range of experts than one single vaccine-discouraging doctor from just one part of the country.
Responsible journalism, please.
19
@TruthInAdvising
Why does the flu or cold virus nearly always appear during the colder months?
@Matt: It doesn't! It's just more easily spread when people are gathered indoors for prolonged periods of time, as we do in the colder months.
1
@L: This gets said a lot, but it's incorrect. Viruses have seasonality, although the mechanisms of viral seasonality isn't well undertstood. Rhinovirus (colds) and influenza are more prevalent in winter (regardless of whether you're in NY or FL). Other viruses are more prevalent in summer (e.g. polio -- ask someone old enough to remember the pre-vaccine years. Kids were told to stay away from beaches and public pools where people gathered in summer for fear of catching polio.)
Doesn’t the following statement, from Ms. Brodie’s article, at least in part refute the concern about alleged ebbing flu immunity as time passes:
“... It’s very important that children, too, get vaccinated with the current year’s vaccine, since children are less likely to have any residual protection from prior exposure to the flu....”
“Residual protection” from prior exposure? That sounds a lot like a form of lasting, if partial, immunity. But the way Ms. Brodie and her one source put it earlier in the article (and many people will read only the first paragraph(s)), it makes it seem that within 5 short months all immunity would be lost (meaning someone vaccinated in August would have zero flu immunity in February, when Brodie claims flu peaks in the US (in HI too? Samoa and Guam, too?). NYTimes, Please have Ms. Brodie clarify this and other of her and her single source’s claims. Perhaps starting by reading and interviewing more than one “expert”?
4
That's not the way the math works. A theoretical 100 percent immunity drops to 80 percent. A loss of another 20 percent drops immunity to 64 percent, then 51.2, 40.96, 32.77 after five months and on into infinity.
4
@ShooTheFlu: Children's immune systems are very different from adult immune systems. Just ask anyone who's had a bone-marrow transplant as an adult, and needed to rebuilt their immunity all over again.
“... no one wants a trip ruined by the debilitating fever, aches, fatigue and nausea that typically accompany the flu.”
Jane Brodie: You forgot to mention that no one wants to die by getting the flu, or to spread it to others, including loved ones, who could die from it.
Flu is not just an inconvenience, as you make it out to be. It is a serious, life-threatening illness that, even in the 21st Century and in fully developed, healthcare meccas like the United States, still kills otherwise healthy people, not to mention those among us who may be more vulnerable.
Getting vaccinated is an easy, relatively inexpensive way to save lives, including your own.
13
@The 7th Jane Brodie is promoting flu shots and also hand washing and keeping your hands from touching your mouth, eyes and nose. Maybe that combination is the best idea thing to do.
3
@The 7th the flu vaccines increaes infection with strains not included jn the vaccine.
So, when the flu vaccine has low efficacy, like most years, it makes people sick.
This is proven scientific fact.
Vaccines are big business, and that pays for a lot of fake science. Vaccine science is tobacco science. Its a scam.
Best protection is to take vitamin D. Safer and more effective than the fraudulent vaccine.
1
@dan s Anti-vaxxer nonsense. It's based on nothing but a foolish conspiracy theory, but unlike the "Moon landings were faked!" nonsense, this one kills people.
29
Doesn’t “herd immunity” play a role in this? Why didn’t Brodie, usually more wise than to discourage timely vaccination, discuss this important factor?
If everyone waited until November to get vaccinated, it’s more likely that we’d be seeing more flu earlier in the season — placing more and more people at risk.
It’s probably thanks to those who get vaccinated on the early side that anyone else has a safe(?) option to wait. But if everyone counts on someone else being that early vaccinator, especially in light of what I see as this article’s irresponsible advice, then it’s likely few will get vaccinated in time, especially as flu season again shifts earlier. And flu can and does happen in non-winter months. A friend’s summer hospitalization for flu complications attests to that.
7
Flu vaccines don't rely on or affect a herd immunity. Not enough of the population gets the shot and it's never effective enough to approach herd immunity if it was universally given.
2
@sneeral
Not true. People with compromised immune systems, such as a friend receive chemotherapy or a family member too young to get the shot (like a newborn grandchild or nephew), are greatly helped by more people getting flu (and other) vaccinations. The flu vaccine not only reduces the chance that they will encounter people with flu, but it also reduces the opportunity flu has of spreading even when someone vaccinated gets the flu. Flu vaccine proven to reduce the number, frequency, intensity and lengthy of illness and of symptoms that spread flu, such as coughing, sneezing, watering eyes, etc.
6
@ROI There is a difference between reducing the number of potential carriers and actual herd immunity. You are misapplying the term.
1
I was surprised to read of the short-lived immunity provided by the vaccine. I remember reading once that a flu vaccine's immunizing effect can stay with a person for up to 7 years!
Also, for older folks, be aware there is a 2-part vaccine for pneumonia- one of the main, and possibly fatal, progressions of the common flu.
8
This article does a disservice by wrongly emphasizing reasons to postpone or even forgo the Flu vaccine.
For example, “... immunity induced by the flu vaccine, which is rarely greater than 60 percent to begin with,”. This statement, while maybe true in terms of 60%, is worded in a way that makes it seem that a flu vaccine doesn’t really help and might as well be forgotten. It also doesn’t give a definition of what “immunity” in this context means.
And, importantly, it totally ignores the important, still life-saving, benefits of flu vaccine in reducing the impact of flu on the body even if not preventing flu altogether. A young family member got flu last season despite having been vaccinated, but the number, strength, and duration of symptoms were greatly reduced by having had the vaccine. In other words, along with providing less suffering and fewer opportunities for the virus to spread to others in the child’s life, the vaccine prevented the most serious and life-threatening symptoms and complications from grabbing hold. Vaccine well worth it, even without full immunity!
As for waiting to get the vaccine, we were told that earlier vaccination is better and provides better immunity. I think the NYT may even have been a source of such advice, so what gives? And might it make a difference: where one lives (east or west coast, north or south); which flu is most likely to hit; which flu each year’s vaccine is meant to fight; one’s age & health status & travel plans?
19
I would be curious to read the study (or studies) that supports Dr. Osterholm's assertion that immunity wanes by 20% a month after one gets the flu shot. The last time I looked into this type of claim (last year), the only study I could find was a retrospective cohort matching study done in a Spanish nursing home. In short, it was not convincing and certainly not generalizable for the non-elderly population. I am concerned that an individual who tries to delay a flu shot based on this recommendation may end up not getting vaccinated at all. Certainly a worse outcome. Please provide sources when making the type of suggestion that could harm people.
30
Yes, indeed.
Thank you for your intelligent and reasonable request.
I strongly second the points and suggestions!
5
@DataPlease There have been several studies that flu protection 3-4 months after the shot is better than 6 months after the shot. It seems the H3N2 virus protection especially wanes, but some think the virus mutates more than other varieties.
I have seen recommendations that high risk people should get the shot in September but other may be better off waiting until October. However, there is tons of variation across the country in individual immune systems and when the flu hits their community.
2
See Ray et al, Clinical Infectious Diseases, from September of this year for an estimate of waning rate. See also an accompanying commentary on that paper and reviews from past few years (e.g. Belongia) on this topic. Why these studies aren’t discussed here in lieu of an interview is confusing.
2
Here is a previous quote in the NY Times from the expert Michael Osterholm you quote in this article:
"We have overpromoted and overhyped this vaccine,” said Michael T. Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, as well as its Center of Excellence for Influenza Research and Surveillance. “It does not protect as promoted. It’s all a sales job: it’s all public relations.”
https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/reassessing-flu-shots-as-the-season-draws-near
11
@The Refusers
'He still considers himself a “a pro-vaccine guy,” Dr. Osterholm said.
“I say, ‘Use this vaccine,’ ” he said. “The safety profile is actually quite good. But we have oversold it. Use it — but just know it’s not going to work nearly as well as everyone says.” '
5
@The Refusers: That's from SIX YEARS AGO. Try harder.
3
@The Refusers
The article is from 2012. Since then, as a consequence of research like this, the higher dose flu vaccine has been developed and is now administered to people over 65 as a matter of course. Younger people should choose that option as well.
And don't forget that even with the weaker vaccine, the likelihood of contracting it and severity of symptoms are reduced.
4
Nine years ago, when the H1N1 was circulating and there wasn't enough vaccine, I caught it. Was fine one day, then the next morning I couldn't breathe. Taken to the ER by ambulance, admitted,,,at 5 p.m. I coded! They had to bring me back to life, put me on life support and induce a medical coma for 17 days. In 17 days, your muscles atrophy to nothing. Woke up unable to move. Transferred to rehab to build muscles and learn to write and walk again. 6 weeks of pure misery. Get your shot. It can happen to anyone.
85
Same thing happened to someone I know. Healthy guy in his 30s. Flu kicked out his lungs fast, ER, induced coma, ICU for many weeks, lasting physical impact on him and trauma for the family, but at least he, like you, lived to tell.
Get the flu shot! It does save lives and can lessen the grave impact of the virus even if you do still catch it.
Shoo the Flu!!!
30
@Ann, and sadly, it can happen even with the flu shot, which is not very effective. "Growing influenza viruses in eggs can introduce changes (i.e., egg-adapted changes) that can have important implications for the body’s immune response to vaccination. For example, these egg-adapted changes could cause the body’s immune system to produce antibodies that are less effective at preventing disease caused by the specific flu viruses in circulation." https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/cell-based.htm
1
Jane,
Why is it that other countries do not embrace these flue shots like we do. Does it have something to do with the fact that 22 countries are healthier than we are. Am I even allowed to ask this question. Probably not.
14
@Allan
The writer is (to be generous) rather mistaken - especially regarding countries with first-world medical systems. A simple web-search on "flu vaccine" 2018 and country name will yield a plethora of articles on flu vaccine from the UK and France across to Israel.
Countries with less-robust systems apparently place less emphasis on such preventive measures. Whose programs would you prefer to follow as exemplars?
12
@Allan It's simple. Because it's a billion dollar win for Big Pharma. I work in marketing, and I never seen something pushed so heavily in the last ten years, I am surprised they don't offer it at the drive-thru at McDonald's.
2
@Bentwoode First-world folks are the perfect target market for pushing the flu shot for Big Pharma, there is no money in the
third world.
2
At 67, I look at flu shots like seat belts. I've never actually needed them, after all these years. But the laws of possibilities and probabilities have a funny way of eventually intersecting.
59
Of course, if you've been getting the shot and it wad effective, you'd never know that it prevented you from becoming ill. It wouldn't be like walking away from an auto accident and knowing you just had a potentially dangerous encounter.
3
This is kind of unfortunate for those severely at risk, like my mom, who are encouraged to get the shot as soon as it comes out, or who even get advance access to it due to poor health status--extra important for the rest of us to pick up the slack and bolster herd immunity throughout the flu season.
14
I'm 63 years old. I've never had a flu shot in my life. I haven't had the flu in the last 30 years (if then). I do, however, have a whole food, plant based diet. Just sayin. Run along now and go get your flu shot. It's the "American" thing to do, supporting the pharmaceutical industry. I can assure you they're very grateful for your support!!
17
@Greg Gerner
Well, aren't you the lucky one. It's amazing how much mileage some people can get out of magical thinking and spurious personal anecdotes regarding cause and effect. However, even though it is absolutely true that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot to answer for it's also true that many of us can quite literally say we are alive today thanks to those pharmaceuticals. Big Pharma definitely needs to be held accountable for many things, but that blanket cynicism about all pharmaceuticals is no more helpful than your magical thinking.
81
@Greg Gerner - I guess you're trying to say that you have boosted your immunity naturally, with your whole food diet.
Please do some reading about the mortality rates in the 1918 Flu pandemic, and which groups fared the worst. (Hint - it was those with the best immune systems.)
53
@Greg Gerner That's very nice to hear you have a good diet, but it's not the main reason you haven't contracted the flu. How much exactly does the pharmaceutical industry make in profit from vaccines? I'm very skeptical they make very much. Is there one company with monopoly power? You shouldn't just spread info that "sounds right" to the uninformed when it comes to public health.
48
I got my flu shot in August. Is it safe to get another one in November?
10
@John Booke
I too got one in August-- and after reading this article, I'm kicking myself (though I did avoid the long wait times my husband encountered this weekend).
Also curious about getting a second shot (as long as there's no shortage). Anyone?
5
@John Booke
The CDC website says:
"Can vaccinating someone twice provide added immunity?
In adults, studies have not shown a benefit from getting more than one dose of vaccine during the same influenza season, even among elderly persons with weakened immune systems. Except for some children, only one dose of flu vaccine is recommended each season."
16
@ T in NC
Doesn’t that information, those studies, then refute Ms. Brodie’s advice about waiting? If immunity (supposedly) diminishes even during months without flu-challenge (eg August), then shouldn’t a booster shot boost or re-boot immunity? The NYT should issue a article on this topic as a responsible way to calm the distress this article may cause needlessly.
Also, don’t factors such as type of vaccine received, type of flu(s) encountered, travel destinations and schedules, age, weight, general health condition, environment (eg if smoke or live with smoker), other individual differences, etc. also factor in when determining how effective a vaccine will be to any individual person?
Shouldn’t the doctor quoted and Jane Brodie direct people to consult their own health care providers before deciding to postpone vaccination? Many of the families of people who waited and died would say so.
8
These's a fallacy in the argument to have everyone wait until mid-November to get a flu shot, and it has to do with herd immunity.
While there is very little flu circulating in September and October, there is some. By having at least some of the population vaccinated, one prevents its transmission to the rest of the (unvaccinated) population.
Rather than time when to get a flu shot, it might be better to consider whether one needs to get two shots - one early and one late. In fact, the later shot could even be optimized based on more data about the circulating flu strains.
While I realize that its hard enough to get most people to get a single flu shot let alone two, there might be enough people who want to do this (those who understand the risk) and enough people who have to do this (those at greatest risk) to bolster the herd immunity.
35
There is NO heed immunity with the flu vaccine. This isn't like the MMR vaccine that is given to almost everyone and is effective about 97 percent of the time. Even with those numbers there is currently a measles outbreak in Rockland County because some misguided parents haven't vaccinated their children.
Fewer than half of Americans get the flu vaccine which is effective only 60 percent of the time in a good year. No herd immunity! It's distressing to see so many thumbs up to this comment. Just more proof of how little understanding people have of simple scientific concepts.
6
@Sneeral That isn't true. In Japan, when they had mandatory vaccination of schoolchildren, flu deaths among vulnerable adults dropped significantly.
For herd immunity to be complete, the rate of spread must fall below that which sustains an epidemic. That doesn't require 100% effectiveness of the vaccine, or 100% coverage. But even if herd immunity is not fully achieved, the spread of an epidemic can be slowed and fewer people affected -- remember that acquired immunity will increase in the course of the epidemic, and that in temperate climates flu epidemics end when the weather turns warm.
6
@Josh Hill
Oh my gosh. Take 90 seconds and search "herd immunity threshold."
Highlights from PBS NOVA much edited for space:
"The term 'herd immunity' refers to a means of protecting a whole community from disease by immunizing a critical mass of its populace... But to work, this protection requires that a certain percentage of people in a community be vaccinated."
"Because measles is extremely contagious and can spread through the air, for example, the immunity threshold needed to protect a community is high, at 95%. Diseases like polio, which are a little less contagious, have a lower threshold—80% to 85% in the case of polio."
With under half the population vaccinated and a vaccine that is at best 60% effective, 30% of the population is inoculated. No where close to the number needed for herd immunity. Not even ballpark.
2