The only reason to cut off fingers is to get information. MBS fired 3 people within hours of the assassination. Probably friends and confidants of Khashoggi. Watch for suicides or car crashes with these individuals.
4
The Saudis have lost all credibility with their multiple stories about Mr. Khashoggi's death. The body double makes it clear that this was a planned murder, nothing less.
Trump may want Saudi money, but at some point, human life becomes more important than any amount of money.
Mr. Khashoggi and his fiancee and family deserve better and so do the American people.
The issue not what "we want to believe," but what the truth is.
4
An earlier comment stated the Saudis are "out of their league", comparing their performance against the competence of Russia's and Israel's forays into the assassination game. Nothing makes this more evident than the Saudis' choice of the Khashoggi "double". Good Lord, the man had a full head of hair--most of it black--unlike Mr. Khashoggi who was mostly bald and mostly grey haired. Their level of incompetence is surpassed only by their level of brutality.
5
Anyone who is waiting for the Saudis to craft a credible story about what happened to Mr. Khashoggi has a problem with accepting reality. The reality is that the Saudis are looking for a story that will make sense and get them off the hook, and the fact that they have been looking for it means that it will be a lie and a coverup.
What the Saudis are looking for is a successful coverup of a foul deed, and their attempts to find or craft this should be described as such; any statement that describes what they are doing in any other way is itself a coverup rather than accurate reporting. So the headline for Trump's activities in this area should read that he continues to aid the Saudi attempts at a coverup; any other headline partakes in the coverup.
71
@sdavidc9 unfortunately you are mistaken..they need no plausible explanation..time and other distractions will make this go away like all other mistakes..look at trump? nothing and i mean nothing sticks to this fool..50 years ago, 40 years ago, even 20 years ago the press would be relentless on a sitting president for any transgression. You literally need a score card to tally trump's idiotic moves and statements. Our world news changes every 15 minutes and it's impossible to stay focused on it all. Another distraction will rear it's ugly head like a suicide bombing in another part of the world, or perhaps a caravan of peasants making for the U.S. border.. the press will pull up its stakes and 'move camp' to cover it.
1
@sdavidc9. and do you think the GOP is involved in said coverup too?
@susan mccall
Of course they are. When the official story makes no sense, those who pretend it does are involved in the coverup of something, even if only of incompetence. And we are not dealing with incompetence here
Who disposed of the BODY, and where are remains?
What? His majesty MBS does not know?
That he would be so ignorant of what happens to his ennemies should by itself make such a "statesman" unfit for his position
2
So funny Khashoggi would wander Istanbul's tourist spots to be picked up by CCTV, while his fiance was agonizingly waiting outside the consulate for him to come out with documents to be married....
9
habeus corpus!
where is the body?
if Turkey has audio, why arent other nations pressing them to release!
1
That would be habeas corpus, which doesn't refer to a dead body, but a live person, who must be present-- bodily-- in court to hear charges against him/her. But I take your point!
I find it ironic that Erdogan, not exactly a supporter of an independent press or freedom of expression, is now revealing "in full nakedness" the truth.
3
The Saudi’s need to hire Sarah to paper this over. Only she can find the right words to turn a bad thing into a good deed for the crown prince.
9
How much lower can you go? Murder, dismember, and then parade around in the victim’s clothes as an attempt to cover up.
Fist fights don’t lead to that.
5
Judging by what we the general public perceive about the whole story just by following its timeline defies the most basic sequential thinking: we already knew from the media Crown Prince MBS extended his condolences to Khashoggi's widow but then there's a body double impersonating Khashoggi strolling around Istanbul when the journalist was already dead! Investigating Khashoggi's death is as confusing as any president Trump's statement claiming anything but then "on-the-spur-of-the-moment" either backtracking or denying it completely, distorting language and ideas previously affirmed, self-demolishing his own credibility day after day.
4
The mission planners of the Saudi hit team combined three elements: hubris (use murder to silence a journalist), stupidity (commit that murder in a Saudi consulate), and unimaginable depravity (the method chosen).
These elements reflect poorly on Saudi Crown Prince — on whose desk today “the buck stops.”
If equity and justice are important to the Kingdom, King Salman should hold the Crown Prince accountable.
6
Saudi Arabia must not gain extra revenue from US imposed Iran sanctions.
The simplest solution right now would be to scrap the Iran sanctions after all they are counter productive to US interests.
Surely if the rest of the world are exploring methods of getting away from the US dollar that can't be good.
Why can't Americans understand that billionaires like Sheldon Adelson have hijacked US foreign policy.
Having the vote a rather pointless exercise.
5
Like children in cages separated from their moms and dads in private prisons didn't clue you in?
This is what you get when you elect war mongers like Lindsey Graham. This is the fault of every republican who sat by and let Wilbur Ross and Rex Tillerson take over. This is what everyone has been scared out of their wits about Bolton. But McConnell is playing the long game again after Boehner got out of Dodge, and this is what you get when you rip up the Iran treaty, sell billions in arms killing children in Yemen.
This is the fault of republicans who put a price on human life and go get Kavanaugh to overturn Roe in the name of love and God.
14
Lies upon lies... they planned it, they got authorisation for it, and it went ahead as planned. The only thing they did not plan for was the reaction from the world. THAT is why they are now scrambling for a 'reasonable' explanation when there was absolutely nothing reasonable or justifiable about their actions. This was a state-sanctioned murder, plain and simple.
14
trump is flailing around trying to keep his bromance with MBS because he owes him so much money ditto Putin.He is exactly where the 2 of them want him...compromised and favoring both of them over our country.There are so many reasons this president is unfit yet the GOP just sits on there hands
20
The Saudis have engaged in an act of terrorism: an act of homicidal violence intended to alter the political activities and expressions of others -- in this case, other critics of Saudi policy under MbS. The Trump administration is busy coddling and providing cover for this terrorist regime for the stated purpose of advancing business deals with it. The details matter, but at the same time, the focus on them is interfering with our ability to see the larger, dark pattern. The Trump administration is protecting terrorists who struck down an American resident instead of standing up to these terrorists.
9
And the President still sent Steve Mnuchin over to Saudi Arabia? And worse yet - Mnuchin didn’t push back! Once again, we are expected to believe Mr. Trump when he says “I asked despot country X if they did a bad thing and they said they didn’t do it. I believe them”.
I am taking Mr. Trump at his word, “a vote for Republican candidate X, is a vote for me”. Time to fire those Republican members of Congress who have been so complicit in aiding Mr. Trump & his narrative. Please get out and vote!
31
Surprising that the White House isn’t offering to have the FBI to do the same kind of “thorough” investigation that it ordered for Kavanaugh. That way it can certainly help help get to the BOTTOM of things - and make sure there is no attention to those at the TOP!
14
Yeah, a body double, that's the ticket. You can almost see the light bulb going on over M.B.S.'s head as he gave the order to his minions to get one. Because 15 Saudis flying into Ankara in the middle of the night is not a big enough tell, they seal the deal with a body double, but unfortunately not a 'face' double.
18
Respectfully ask The New York Times to research and publish the punishments/sanctions of regimes that have assassinated dissidents on foreign soils over the years. It seems these crimes are more prevalent now, or at least more publicized. I suggest it necessary for the U.S. to create and implement some form of sanction that would be effective in combating these chilling assaults on human rights.
That a foreign country could take out a writer for a United States paper without penalty makes it utterly impossible for our country to be great again.
16
15 Saudi guys seems to be the magic number - 15 Saudis attacked America on 9/11 and 15 Saudis murder a Washington Post reporter in a NATO country......with friends like that, who needs enemies ???
25
Mnuchin is not an investigator and had no reason to discuss the Khashoggi matter with the crown prince other than to orchestrate yet another coverup story with him just as the CIA Chief has gone to Turkey, not to investigate, but to bargain for suppression of the full facts, most likely with knowledge gained from Mnuchin as to what Saudi Arabia is willing to provide in exchange.
Ertogan has played this like a master.
28
Indeed he did. And at the same time he’s skewing our fierce Leader, who he really dislikes.
9
If this is correct, the journalist's death is just one in many.And looks like one of the hit squad was already killed last week to cover it up.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/tiger-squad-saudi-hitmen-khashoggi-mbs
Much greater plot in play.
11
Need an international lawyer's input here: Does a Saudi crown prince have diplomatic immunity in Turkey that makes him immune to prosecution for conspiracy to commit murder?
10
@George great question
4
@George
No.
diplomatic immunity does not apply to murder.
4
Trump and the Saudis...made for each other. Gold everywhere.
Huge overstuffed chairs.
Mike Pompeo grinning and chuckling as he scurries up to meet
the Crown Prince as if he was there to extend the congratulations
of our government, The United States of America, for some accomplishment benefitting humanity.
And Mr. Kared Kushner, isn't he quire an item. Thank God he's usually silent. It makes absolutely perfect sense that Mr. Jared Kushner bonded with the Crown Prince right from the start. I wonder what they laugh about in a lighter moment.
We're on notice.
22
Turkish officials were reportedly suspicious that a body double might be acting as the columnist Jamal Khashoggi when he walked out of the embassy and past his fiancee, not recognizing who she was.
24
Pre- meditated murder! Out of a bad spy novel. First they take down the twin towers, kidnap a Lebanese head of state, bomb a bus of young students, kidnap their own citizens and now this horrific murder. Save Yemen!
32
Trump warns off "warning that “unknown Middle Easterners” were marching toward the American border with Mexico.". I wonder if that includes the Saudi Arabia or just those without Trump hotels. Immoral and amoral.
Ugly times, sad
25
Barbaric and brazen murder like this one could be the modern day’s equivalent of surprise military attack on enemy or terrorist attacks. I think most people reading this story probably feel not only shocked and horrified but terrorized. This was probably the whole idea.
15
Is it possible Mr. Kashoggi's murder was blatantly clumsy by design?
We focus on how overtly and arrogantly stupid the Saudi regime has been about killing and attempts at a cover up - flying in a 15 man death squad, the clothing ruse, the shifty denials and daily changing excuses. Seems like pure evil borne of impetuous insecurity at the top. But at the end of the day, MBS and his crew are now up in ranks of famous ruthless dictators who will reach out and kill anyone who threatens them. A 32 year old royally millennial gangsta with an military, money, and a troll-bot army at his disposal.
By design or not, he's killed a journalist who threatened his image and ego, and he's getting attention and thug-life reputation that buys him regard (if not respect) on the global stage. He can bank on the likely reality that the West will not dare sanction him in any meaningful way because they need his oil, his financial investments, and his military purchasing power that are essential to the growth of their own economies.
Look at the way the US administration is bending over backwards to not blame him for any of this - Trump even said its not worth losing $110B in military sales: the US economy would be crippled without Saudi purchases. Other countries are expressing outrage but lets see what actual sanctions they dare come up with.
The new Saudi regime is exporting its domestic brutality, and I think they know they can and will get away with it. Are we being played, again?
25
@Rese Your comments are very dark. Unfortunately sometimes, these days, it does seem that there is more truth on the dark side than we would like to even imagine.
11
Of course. It’s far too obvious. The dude had an appointment at the Saudi consulate the very day they fly all those thugs in.
If they wanted to shut him up & sow just a bit of suspicion, even one random Turkish confederate could have taken him out anytime.
4
@Rese, Trump and pals have poured out nearly three trillion dollars from our treasury to the rich. The Saudi money whether they buy weapons from companies here or not cannot "cripple" our economy, . The rich can, though --the president can. They will hoard it, send it abroad; it will be lost to our public needs and our economy. The Saudis' money is not our problem here--it's the men robbing us in broad daylight you should consider for that.
8
There are six-year-old children out there who have come up with better flimflam excuses for the empty cookie jar. Do we really want to do business with such an inept group? And BTW, Donald Trump's hugely inflated value of the Saudi arms deal is about as realistic. Maybe in their arrogance and frequent financial bailouts of the Trump and Kushner companies it never occurred to them they'd have to say they're sorry.
This was a colossally gruesome and incompetent crime; the only possible reason would be to send a warning to anyone else who dares criticize the new regime. It seems to be having the opposite effect.
19
So why is our treasury secretary giving this murderer a private personal visit that has no agenda and no record of the discussion?
41
@Debbie No worries. Mnuchin is sending his body double to meet with... you guessed it! A body double.
14
Kushner says:“We’re getting facts in from multiple places. Once those facts come in, the secretary of state will work with our national security team to help us determine what we want to believe.” - that's exactly the problem! You determine what you want to believe, not what is the truth. This is shocking.
And Mnuchin talking to MBS to "ratchet up the pressure on Iran". Why not put pressure on Saudi while you are there? The US foreign policy is a joke. How cynical can you be?
I applaud Angela Merkel for stopping all arms sales to Saudi Arabia until there is clarity on what happened.
37
So well played by the Turks, seriously that is the best own goal ever by the Saudi's. The Saudi's from day one said he left the consulate and Turkey armed with every detail knew this wasn't true but they said very little about Khashoggi leaving. They had made plenty of other comments knowing that the Saudis who keep saying he left hadn't. The fact they bought a look a like along was pre-meditated and not a rogue operation, problem is that Khashoggi has smaller feet than the look alike so he wasn't able to wear Khashoggi's shoes. Fail.
The amount of people compromised here is astounding, this is worst situation for the US federal government.
14
The Saudis have not changed from their savage Middle Age ancestors living in tents in the desert except now they oil money from the West. Cut off their oil money and their power will diminish. The West can do this by converting to green energy and abandoning fossil fuels. the Saudis are not allies. They are stealth enemies.
Other oil producing enemies include Russia, Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, etc. Cut off their oil money and their power will diminish.
14
@DAK, this is an excellent comment. I believe you're right about how disruptive a strong domestic green energy industry would be to these nefarious players (not to mention how it'd save the planet's climate and produce lots of good jobs).
8
A team of 15 or more people, including several with close ties to MbS, flew in on two Saudi private jets for the day, murdered a U.S. resident in a foreign embassy, quickly disposed of the body with the help of a supposedly anonymous person they implicitly trusted to keep their crime secret, promptly returned home, lied about the killing for more than a week, and we are asked to believe all of this went on without the knowledge or direction of a Crown Prince who has asserted such control over his country that even his family members were imprisoned and shaken down to establish his autocratic authority? It all sounds very credible according to a president who rarely sounds credible. Next thing you know, he'll be telling us that his namesake son arranged a meeting with several Kremlin-tied Russians, his brother-in-law Kushner, and Paul Manafort to get dirt on a political rival provided by a source high in the Russian government, but Trump, Jr. never told his father, even though the president goes ballistic at the mere suggestion he is not in the loop about everything that is remotely connected to him. Sure, sounds plausible!
13
Question: How many Saudis would it take to make Mnuchin vanish?
Answer: None. He has already been bought and sold by Trump.
10
Mohammed bin Salman should step down immediately. He is not the leader that everyone hoped and has done great damage to his country on the world stage. He has demonstrated an uncontrollable need for power by ordering this heinous crime and if he continues as the effective ruler of the regime, the Saudi partnership of the US and other countries will be damaged forever. No one in the USA, whether it's media, infrastructure or technology wants to do business with a murderer.
16
I guess if MbS is on the Turkish tape, Riyadh will claim it's a rogue Voice Double.
1
The facts show that Mr. Khashoggi, a contributing Saudi journalist to the New York Post, was killed in a Saudi Arabian Consulate in Turkey.
The facts show that a number of Saudi trained military personnel (including a 'body-double') also entered the consulate and ultimately killed Mr. Khashoggi.
The facts show that for almost 2-weeks, Saudi Prince Mohammed bin Salman, has offered various denials and excuses about the incident that few world leaders believe.
The United States president and members of his administration seem to be less concerned about this murder (and the Saudi war against the Yemeni people) and more concerned about keeping a financial arrangement in place.
I am one of the millions of Americans who believes that there is too much blood on this 'financial arrangement' already. Is there no decency left in this administration?
34
@Lalo From our fearless leader: journalist = enemy of the people, and "not a citizen"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/11/trumps-jamal-khashogg...
1
This whole thing, except for the grisly method of killing, (are we back in the 12th century?) reminds me of 7th grade boys trying to explain away a most dastardly deed. It is juvenile beyond belief. Are we selling weapons to children? They must think the rest of the world, particularly our country, are still in kindergarten. Fist fights, losing your shoes, who would have thought we would be reading this? I hope it is soon solved in an adult factual way and our dear president is able to understand it.
6
Time to fight fire with at least matches and take MBS into custody (jail) . . . forever! Let that be the lesson!
4
Saudi abominations become an opportunity to enumerate the dangers of an ascendant Iran- they really have no shame at all.
4
The Saudi Crown Prince must stand trial in Turkey.
4
@The Weasel I heard that they are sending him to ankara next week.
2
Ya, sure, but a couple what-difference-does-it-makes:
1. Saudis claim its crew was meant only to take Khashoggi or talk him back to Saudi Arabia . . . so he could be disappeared there with no fuss.
2. And what difference does it make whether the Crown Prince knew or not? He has set a culture that his underlings will do what he wants/needs without having to give express orders (akin to Trump's underlings protecting him by doing whatever has to be done e.g., his lawyer Cohen threatening and buying off women who accuse boss of affairs and harassment).
This is how authoritarians protect themselves and have "credible deniability" at the same time. But its not credible in this setting.
4
Call me ignorant, but why are we selling arms to Saudi Arabia, a country obviously capable of inconceivable killing? Why are we more concerned about the price tag of these arms deals rather than the execution style killing of journalist who happened to be living in the US and writing for the Washington Post?
This poor man went into to get some document needed to get married. He was about to be married and they murdered him instead.
36
You are selling arms to Saudi Arabia for US Dollars.
5
Charles, do you think those dollars profit you? They will come into the hands of bosses and investors and will not leave those to enter any good thing for us. A drop in the bucket of the tax cuts for the rich--the waterfall of dollars disappearing from the public good, to be made up how? Not by arms sales to middle eastern nations. And what happened to the arms American companies sold to Iraq? Or to Afghanistan? Where do you think they go the weapons they turned on us when the day of conflict came? The weapons that killed our soldiers were American-made and sold, and the money long gone into a rich man's pocket, one way and another. So pretending that "we" get "US dollars from this? No, I think not. It's a very bad deal for us American people.
11
@LM Because since the United States came out of the Great Depression by selling arms and dealt with the problem of switching to a peace economy and the returning soldiers after WWII to a great extent by selling arms during the Cold War, arm sales have been a substantial and necessary part of economic growth and corporate profits in this country.
Also, Saudi Arabia was a strong ally against the Soviet Union,has been a reliable source of oil and now is an ally of Israel and adversary of Iran to the benefit of U.S. interests in the Middle East. humanistic values only count as rhetorical devices to create an image of national virtue.
1
I wonder whether they were advised by Ed Whalan on the "Brett Kavanaugh doppelganger" angle and decided to reuse it here.
9
I'm interested in the parallels between the 19 Saudi hijackers and the 15 member Saudi hit team that killed Khashoggi. The Saudis seem to like going to foreign countries and killing innocent people. What's up with that?
27
So they accidentally killed him
And then accidentally wore his clothes
And then accidentally impersonated him
And then accidentally lied
49
And they accidentally included the forensic “doctor” on their team that accidentally caused Jamal’s death!
And the forensic guy accidentally brought the bone saw!
20
15:1, what fool would start a fistfight with these odds? Really?
20
Bringing a body double to the attack makes this pre-meditated murder.
26
Apparently we are cheaply bought now.
Trump will stomach any lie, any pretense, any horror for the mere claim that they might buy arms from us later.
Or is it because they also have his debts, his properties, and his secrets and he knows he can't push them.
41
@Details More likely Saudi money keeping Trump and Kushner properties afloat. Just a hint of staying at other hotels and putting condos on the market would terrify him.
7
@Details RE: Or is it because they also have his debts, his properties, and his secrets and he knows he can't push them.
That sure does sound like it.
2
The sloppiness of this is the Saudis saying that they don't believe in a free press or in basic human decency. The "double" is wearing different shoes! The Turks saw the Saudis get off the plane and went on alert. The Turks know what happened from the minute the Saudis set foot on the ground. The Saudis know they know. The Turks are controlling the public narrative and using what they hold as leverage over the Saudis which is why the story is coming out drip by drip. We didn't call the Saudi Ambassador into the State Dept., rather Pompeo went to see them which is a clear sign that Donald is the supplicant. As we did not hold the Saudis accountable for 9/11, what will we do in this case? Can the Turks get a handle on how much Donald and Jared are beholden to the Saudis? Once they know that, they will use that to control Donald & Jared and our future.
26
. . .and one still wonders why the Israelis have never been able to achieve peace with these Arabs?
Their governments are childlike in their belief in their own powers. Children is such powerful positions, makes our Trump-Pence relatively adult in their behavior.
14
@Jim Um, no Jim. Trump is actively complicit in this coverup. There. fixed it for ya.
5
@Jim Israel is an ally of Saudi Arabia. The reasons why Israel have no been able to achieve peace with many Arab countries have to do with Israeli aggression not with countries been childlike.
4
@Jorge Rolon "have not"
Every detail about the murder of Mr.Khashoggi is sad.It is sad that a journalist working in the United States was not safe from the wrath of the rulers of his native Saudi Arabia.It is sad that the Trump administration has accepted the lame story line from the Saudis.It is sad that Trump will not accept the information of his own Security team.It is sad that Trump believes Putin, Kim and MBS - all dictators.It is sad that our security is put at risk because Trump takes the word of ruthless rulers who wish to harm the United States.It is all sad and disastrous!
34
So far, the only actual facts that we know are that the guy was killed and that there was a body-double attempt. Everything else is speculation based on info from another really-really bad guy, Erdogan, including the grisly details involving the bone saw. Still, I read dozens of references to them in the comments.
3
@PaulN Regardless of what you think about Erdogan, Turkey has been the only source of accurate information about Khashoggi's murder. Turkey has released CCTV footage, passport photos, a timeline and more. I find it unlikely that Erdogan would make such grisly claims about Khashoggi's murder without the evidence to back it up. The Saudis on the other hand have lied about everything to protect the Crown Prince. The Crown Prince controls the Saudi security services so its inconceivable that he did not know in advance about the murder or approve it. The real question is what is the United Staes going to do about it when Trump seems content to ignore it and sweep it under the carpet. The Unted State's response has been shameful.
6
"... possibly contradicting the Saudi insistence that his death was the accidental result of an altercation."
Another thing that contradicts the Saudi story is basic common sense, and by basic I mean at the level of a 10-year-old. Anyone that believes the Saudi story will also have the ability to believe in Santa Claus.
15
Santa Clause and trickle down economics.
11
Of the 15 men identified that were present when Khashoggi was murdered,
one was a lieutenant in the Saudi Air Force
one was a chief forensic expert in the security division of the Saudi interior ministry
one was a member of Saudi special forces
four were Saudi Royal guards
one was a member of the Saudi Air Force
one was a member of the Saudi primary intelligence agency
one was a lieutenant colonel in the Saudi army
one worked for security for Saudi Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir
one worked in direct service for the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman
one was a lieutenant colonel in the Saudi civil defense force
Does that list appear to be rogue operators?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/khashoggi-sa...
50
Trump is worked up about the migrant caravan headed this way. He is concerned there may be Middle Eastern terrorists among them. I may not know that this is true, but given the atrocity of murdering a journalist in a consulate, or the plotters who rained the World Trade Center down on us, shouldn't he be looking at Saudi Arabia instead.
20
The Saudis are clearly sending the message: "Shhhh, journalists..."
But we're also sending our own message these days: "Our foreign policy is entirely for sale..."
17
Or sold prior to this murder, by our top despot.
4
If the Saudis can cut the arms off a Washington Post reporter, surely Washington can cut off arms sales to the Saudis.
43
@Ferdie14 Cute. Does 14 mean age?
@Jorge Rolon
Yes.
Fifteen people "to persuade him"?
I wonder how many they'd send to kidnap him.
15
I am so glad that Haitce Cengiz did not walk in the door of the consulate with Khashoggi or else she would be dead too. Since I guess she waited outside for hours for her fiancee. I bet he feared what might happen and insisted she stay well outside.
And I bet the true evil doers in that consulate seriously considered a plan of grabbing her as she waited outside, bringing her into their chamber of horrors and delivering the same fate to her as well. Thank goodness that did not happen.
My heart grieves for her in this deeply personal yet world exposed tragedy she bears. Can you imagine the dark, terrifying and heartbreaking road she now walks through in this life?
And we have a president and administration that just wants this all to get off the front pages so they can go back to business as usual with this barbaric kingdom.
37
@Clearwater -- They sent only 15 men to deal with one Washington Post reporter. If they were going to go after his fiancee as well, that would mean the cowardly impotent sissies of the Saudi government would have to have sent hundreds of agents. It's highly doubtful that there are that many Saudis loyal to the crown prince who would have had the courage to go on that mission.
1
Besides the moral decrepitude of the Saudi kingdom, this gruesome drama reveals the pitiful lack of leadership from the United States. During the half century of cold war, we participated in the senseless killing of over 20 million men women and children everywhere from Vietnam to Angola. When finally rid that ideological burden, we brilliantly dumped a trillion dollars into the desert, fostering terrorist chaos. Now as we whine about China's rise, we ramp up 20th century military technology to face 21st century conflict. How about trying basic decency for a change? How did the most visionary country in the world become beholden to a spoiled prince, offering up our Silicon Valley crown jewels and selling out the dignity of women everywhere? The world is rapidly dividing into authoritarian governments that feed their people with the spoils from petty thugs, and democracies that respect the free exchange of ideas as much as they do free trade. We have to get on the right side of that divide, now.
43
Trumps’ buddies. Great people! Pals! How many people you know who plan killing, bring weapons, dismemberment tool, and body double? Sounds like they knew what they were doing. Hmmmm only didn’t plan for the rest of the world caring? Or did they and don’t really give a hoot? Thought Buddy Trump could spin this garbage like he has everything else.
23
Doesn't this ruin the lame excuse that MBS gave about Khashoggi's death being an accident....unintentional....a mission gone wrong.....
I mean, who takes off all the clothes of a person before they accidentally kill them?
22
josh from NYC asked: why we should care who
saudi arabia murders, given that we have more
than enough problems to deal with in the USA?
i failed to grasp whether he meant his question
literally or whether he was totally, sadly ironic ...
this is not just about one person's coldblooded death.
saudi arabia has been murdering hundreds,
if not thousands of people in yemen recently,
using US- and EU-manufactured weapons.
so many reasons to care. and despair as well
bc we can't seem to stop them from causing
even more deaths: yemen suffers the WORST
cholera epidemic ever recorded, these days ...
and yet, the death of ONE man, jamal kashoggi,
can raise more outrage than thousands losing their lives,
because people can relate more easily to 1 than to 1001.
DO NOT ALLOW MBS TO SWEEP
THIS MURDER UNDER ANY RUG!
[can treasury secretary mnuchin & co. be made aware
that we treasure truth, press freedom and justice for all
much more than ruthlessly obtained profits at any cost?]
14
Erdogan is blackmailing MBS while he delays in releasing the evidence. I wonder what he is demanding. It must be a lot for the Saudis to be so hesitant. Erdogan gave MBS until tomorrow to agree or the evidence would be released.
7
@Will Hogan
There could be other reasons that Mr. Erdogan needed to wait. The Turkish teams are still unfinished--finding pieces of the body, for instance, could prove important.
3
The Saudis really need to sit down with Trump and learn the basics of not getting caught. They are terribly unskilled as liars and the president would be a fantastic resource.
17
@JR
Trump is always caught. Just like the Saudis, his people don't care.
6
@JR, as Trump said about his lady-grabbing, sexual assaults, "When you're a star, they let you." As he said about his fans, he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue, and they'd still love him. A con man's boast about his marks. The day people decide that Trump is not immune to consequences anymore will be one sad day for him. And one happy day for the rule of law and decency.
6
In another story in the NYT about Secretary of the Treasury, Steve Mnuchin's visit with the crown prince today, Jared Kushner is quoted as saying: "We're getting facts in from multiple places. Once those facts come in, the secretary of state will work with our national security team to help us believe what we want to believe. The operative word in that last sentence is "want" because that is exactly what Trump and his minions will do in the end - believing what they want to believe as opposed to believing the facts.
32
Two reactions come to mind. The first is that leaders take responsibility. MBS’s efforts not to take responsibility indicates that he’s either not a leader or he’s a liar. Either should be a reason to end our focus on him as Saudi Arabia’s future. The second is that I shudder at the thought of our nation’s jobs being so highly dependent on arms production. I don’t think we truly see ourselves as the builders of lethal weapons for countries whose use of these weapons we can’t control. Witness how our missiles have been used against Yemeni targets. I’d rather believe our nation’s jobs are driven by production of more peaceful goods, and better yet to rebuild our outdated infrastructure.
20
Well said!
@Anthony Olbrich
1
It is time that western media releases also more details about the insanity how the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia killed various darker skin sons and daughters, and abducted woman of various nationalities (eg. Armenians, Africans, Russians and Italians) to create (procure) its family heritage.
Its no secret King Salman is officially married to five different women, but known to have had many more unofficial relations (and born sons amd daughters) with many others. "Officially", he has a total of 13 children in addition to Abdullah. However, MBS is known for taking hostess services during his foreign trips. Intelligence dossiers have been kept closed for many years.
Read here:
https://www.gulfinstitute.org/investigation-murder-in-the-palace-saudi-k...
5
The Saudi’s have public executions and lashings. Should those responsible be exempt, from the same rules applied to others?
5
I still don’t understand why any of this is shocking to people. A brutal monarchy put a hit on an insider who turned on them. The victim was a Saudi citizen and lived under their ‘rules’, not ours.
5
It is shocking that our country chooses to do business with countries that operate under such rules. It is shocking that some people in this country choose to ignore human rights violations for the sake of money.
19
@Mike, an insider? He lived in Virginia, and worked for the Washington Post. As I believe you know. Saudis or Russians or Chinese or others who live here are not "living under the rules" of whatever despots rule those lands. Our law rules here. And there is likewise no law that makes legal the murder of this man in an embassy on Turkish soil. Nation's leaders, however foul, do not get to do as they please and then expect that to be accepted as a global "rule". Thank God. That said, I am amazed at the lengths that some apparent Americans will go to in trying to excuse this assassination. Very odd.
5
@jb I am not excusing this execution, I just don’t find it to be surprising. The victim was absolutely a Saudi insider - read his bio. We are talking about a brutal tribal culture where adultry is considered worse than murder (a crime where you can pay blood money in lieu of punishment) and where tribal loyalty matters most. The Saudi royal family has a long history of executing those who offend its honor. The King’s own niece was executed for an allegation of adultry in the late 1970s.
Despite the sound bites that Saudi arabia is modernizing or that it is a “culture of peace” most of the middle east is a brutal place.
"The use of a “body double” suggests a premeditated plan to make Mr. Khashoggi disappear, through death or abduction, and to cover it up — possibly contradicting the Saudi insistence that his death was the accidental result of an altercation."
Seriously, New York Times, you're hedging your words here? Really.
16
would actually be perfectly executed killing if the Turks were not listening in; The body if dismembered is likely taken into suitcases back on saudi plane and disposed of somewhere in ocena or desert
9
This has all the hallmarks of a young prince that everyone feared to say “No!” to.
7
All these excuses to try to delay fully accepting what the Saudi's did - and that Trump was willing to gullibly buy their now admitted pack full of lies - until after the election.
It was a well planned operation - a body double to make it look like he left the consulate, a doctor with a bone saw to make the body disappear, and another dozen well trained and loyal to the Crown Prince military personnel to make sure the murder went off without any mistakes.
A pity that his fiancee hanging around meant they had to use the back door, that their body double was caught on camera in enough of a close up to be an obvious double, and that Turkey has more than enough spying devices that they have the whole thing recorded.
12
I doubt anyone panicked. They are brazen about this and essentially showing off about how much they can get away with. Just like Putin.
11
I think this was a trap set from at the time Mr. Khashoggi first applied for a divorce certificate - which I read he did in the United States. Why should he have to go all the way to Turkey to get a divorce certificate? Why not from the Saudi Consulate in Washington DC or even London? Three days is a relatively short time to construct this complicated plot, unless they had practice on other victims. They were already waiting for him when he walked into the Consulate on September 29th.
3
Next, the Saudis will tell us that an elusive international hit man with evil designs on Donald Trump was the intended target of MBS’s travelling “security detail.” It was simply an unfortunate case of mistaken identity that Mr. Khashoggi just happened to resemble the intended target of the 15 men with the bonesaw and the quicklime. And, although the bad guy is still at large, Trump will be happy to learn that his good friend, “King Salman,” went to all this trouble to protect America’s greatest president.
5
Mr. Trumps standard for believability seems to be a statement along the lines of "He strongly denied it". That was good enough from Putin to convince Trump they didn't meddle in our elections, and proof enough they Saudi leadership didn't order an execution. Of course Trump actally admires despots and dictators. so he doesn't take much convincing. Unless Congress acts, there will be no penalty for this behavior. For Trump, it's all about money and transactions. Poor Mr. Khashoghi's death is merely an inconvenience.
17
It would seem that the Saudis went ahead with this operation without taking into account that upon entering a consulate, they would of course be under surveillance. Odd, isn't it?
9
Khashoggi was a life-long insider of the House of Saudi. The only way to leave the mob is feet first. Those basking in Trump's glory and benefiting from his largess will better be aware that when Trump leaves the WH in 2024 anyone who double-crossed him will end as Khashoggi did. Except there will be no outcry from Western Democracies - there won't be any left. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever."
7
@Tumiwisi
Puh-lease - 2021.
5
None of this passes the laugh test, except to the President and his immediate family. If this was a script for a TV show, it would be rejected. Here is what is obvious to anyone that has even a layman's understanding of Saudi Arabia: MSB personally ordered Khashoggi's murder. There is no such thing as a rogue operation after MSB concentrated power over the past two years. Claiming that it was a rogue operation, a product of Trumpian spin, is an insult to the intelligence of every American citizen, including Fox News. To President Trump, Elizabeth Warren and many many others: stop insulting us. We can think for ourselves.
16
I generally agree with some of president Trump's domestic policies. However I will be very disappointed if he chooses to buy any coverup that Saudis may put out about Khashoggi's premeditated murder. I don't agree with Trump's stance of putting a price to America's conscience which according to him is 400-500 billion dollars that our country may get by selling arms to Saudis. Khashoggi came to America and acquired its residency with a hope that World' most powerful democracy would protect him. Little did he know that there are leaders who are willing to sell America's soul for a price. I wish he had not come here and had gone to Europe instead. Washington Post should go to the roots of this conspiracy and should not let the President and Kushner sell us a version of truth that Saudis may sell them by dangling the 400 billion dollar carrot.
9
Are you sure this story is quite separate from Trump’s domestic policies? He hasn’t shown much regard for the safety of journalists here at home.
7
Be BEST, Traitors. And by traitors, I'm referring to the entire Trump Crime Family. Seriously.
41
@Phyliss Dalmatian Yup, trump said he would hire "the best people"
Oh what a wicked web they weave when others they try to deceive. A little truth would be in order at the junction of lies and more lies. Whomever is handling this for the cold blooded murdering Saudi’s doesn’t know what he is up against or what he is doing!
Another day when honesty is the best policy! But it is too foreign for both SA and trump’s America to even go there after so long.
And actually we are seeing trump for what he is, “BeWorst” he can’t have it any other way because that’s who he is, the worst.
It is pretty impressive how Turkey has just absolutely owned Saudi Arabia at every turn throughout this debacle. Hey Riyadh; before you deploy your next lie, you should understand that Turkey probably has the recording. You know, the one where the murderers announce to their victim that the Crown Prince sends his regards just before they kill him. There is no way Riyadh is coming through this fiasco with anything other than total, well-deserved humiliation.
46
Saudis murdered an American journalist. Trump and Kushner are covering for them because they need Saudi help. Help in the Middle East to fight wars. Help to implement Kushners "Middle East Plan". Help in buying arms from America to boost US economy and boost US jobs. Trump and Kushner will never do anything to endanger their Saudi buddies. Vote out Republicans; they enable Trump and will never cross Trump. Ray Sipe
44
@Ray Sipe he was not American. He was Saudi and working in the US. There is a difference. A huge difference.
2
Ray, what American journalist did the Saudis murder? Please check the facts.
@Ray Sipe Perhaps Trump and Kushner also want continued help from the Saudis in bailing them out from bad real estate deals and extravagant over-spending. (Has there ever, in U.S. history, been a more conflicted leader in the White House, marked by extreme nepotism and corruption at the highest levels?)
I think this administration is somewhat responsible for the death of this courageous journalist, by repeating the anti-American mantra "the press is the enemy of the people," and looking the other way on so many atrocities.
The evil, incredibly corrupt Saudi dictator just figured he could get away with it with a person like Trump as U.S. President. And, guess, what? His calculations appear to be right on target.
Democracy Dies in Darkness!!
5
It looks like Khashoggi's fight/flight instinct broke down. The predator got the upper hand. At any rate, money talks in military sales. A windfall for the elite.
1
@Uly yep.. just like in the wild. except for the money part.
1
Treasury Secretary Mnuchin meets with Saudi prince.
Spokesman says Mnuchin was in Saudi Arabia to visit `Terrorist Financing Targeting Center'.
That seems obvious.
10
The use of a “body double” suggests a premeditated plan to make Mr. Khashoggi disappear, through death or abduction, and to cover it up — possibly contradicting the Saudi insistence that his death was the accidental result of an altercation.
What's with all the hedging by the NYT? Why is body double in quotes? Why use the word possibly when the Saudi account has been clearly contradicted on several fronts?
Why provide any cover at all for a totalitarian leader?
13
@Eric. Agreed. I’ve also noticed the hedging, as you call it, throughout this horrible event/story. I don’t get it: Why is the NYT using language that gives any credence to these lies? Why give them any sort of legitimacy?
3
The Saudis are not in a fact-finding phase. It's more like desperate attempts to cover up the facts. I know they think Americans are stupid (Why else would we have Donald Trump as president? I'll give them that.) but believing their story about an accidental death goes beyond the pale. Not only did they bring a bone saw to the Consulate, now we can add a fake beard and ready-to-go body double.
26
It shows you how arrogance makes people stupid. If MBS had asked Vlad, Vlad would have explained to him that if the Saudi operatives would have just gunned Khashoggi down on a street at night from a passing motorcycle all would would have been well for MBS, even though no one would have been fooled by that kind of murder, either. Everyone would have known perfectly well who did it. But the deniability-with-a-straight-face, Russian-style, a.k.a. stonewalling, would have been there. Murder in the consulate, including dismembering the body and then walking a doppelganger around, is just as criminal as murder on the street, but a lot stupider and a lot harder for Don, Jared et al. to pretend they don't get it.
26
@XXX in previous comments there is a very dark view of why this appears to have been bumbled. Dark, and scary questions, but food for thought.
....follow the money.. who paid for the two private jets used by the kill team?
20
@DaisyMae
I read that the jets belonged to a private airline that is known to be used by Saudi government officials. Does anyone have corroboration of this?
3
@K.Blanchard: the Saudi government controls the national airline of Saudi Arabia and the royals have their own substantial fleet. The tail numbers will show the ownership and movements of those aircraft.
3
More and more desperate, trying to maintain their lies.
I wonder, when the tape is released, and I am hoping Edrogen for once puts his country’s honor first - ahead of his pockets and the mess he’s made of the economy.
Then again, he’s already leaked its contents.
I wonder how the Saudi royalty will explain how a guy whose fingers were severed while he lived managed to provide those unprepared thugs with a clean suit for their double.
Stripped, then tortured and beheaded, all within minutes. Bin Salam’s PR department may be one of the worst, but his goons ARE first rate.
Next question - was the planned hit on President Trump’s morning briefing, if so, did he allow its presentation or just go back to watching himself on Fox news.
If he did the above, did he do it because he was told in advance there was something he didn’t want to officially know about, or because he normally doesn’t listen to them? FAssuming the CIA, NSA and DIA flight watchers had no idea something was upon
4
No body cares!
WaPo spends all their time hating on Trump and the Conservatives.
If they spent 1/10 the time on Americans killed by illegals, or Police killed as they did on this murder, then their might be some sympathy...sorry.
Most Liberal media organizations don't care about anything but knocking Conservatives, so don't come around asking us to care about your reporters.
2
@edge
It would appear that a lot of people care.
Several European countries are halting arms sales to Saudi. Diplomatic relations with Turkey are strained. And the whole thing is an embarrassment to the US, because Khashoggi was a greencard holder and therefore, though not a citizen, under our protection.
Just like a lot of people care about the murder of the Skripals on British soil.
10
@edge
So your saying it’s the Washington Post reporting on the incident that is wrong. And you imply there is nothing wrong with Trump helping the Saudi terrorist cover up their murder of a US journalist. I’m not buying that.
6
In the accompanying article you point out that Khashoggi went to the Saudi consulate on Sept. 28 to collect the document needed for his upcoming wedding. What doesn't seem to get enough emphasis in NYT reporting is that he was turned away on 9/28 and told to return days later--allowing for the Saudis to set in motion their assassination plan, including telling Turkish consulate workers to not come into work on the day of the killing!
24
To anyone that has studied state assassinations, the use of a double should come as no surprise.
4
I am disturbed by the efforts to integrate the Saudis' patently false cover-story into several recent Times articles.
“They panicked after he died, and in order to make it appear he left the consulate, they decided to impersonate him,” has got to be one of the least plausible narratives to ever make it into the Times - and we've seen some doozies.
The latest piece treats the Saudi fairytale with an air of disgust, but on Saturday I counted no fewer than 12 paragraphs of unadulterated royal Saudi horse-puckey that also carried the distinct odor of top-dollar Publicity Professional in a front-page article. That is a shame. Please don't insult your readers by acting as though any sane person could actually believe one word what Mr. Bone Saw and his henchmen are spewing.
10
There’s very big money involved. Aramco’s IPO is coming up and all the hedge funds and all prominent people want to pocket a bit of treasure. America desperately wants to maintain its ties with Daudi Arabia so that Iran’s oil can be cut off and oil prices hit an all time high again. This will make Aramco very rich and by that virtue all the biggies very rich.
Influential and Prominent people have everything to lose by sanctioning Saudi Arabia. Specially Robert Mercer - a climate denialist and a hedge fund owner.
3
@Jagdeer Haleed It seems the plot thickens. I hope someone pursues this thread!
It's obvious by now that this was a murder that was both horrific and premeditated, involving extensive planning and preparations. It's also obvious that Salman and his inner circle were directly involved -- and, that they're bumbling idiots -- both in regard to the extensive clues they generated and how they've continued to evolve their obviously-concocted stories in such a slow-motion, utterly-incompetent way. It's astonishing at this point that they think not everyone else in the world believes they were directly responsible.
Meanwhile, we get rambling, tepid comments from Trump. Pompeo didn't see anything wrong with joking around with the Saudis, as if Khashoggi's murder wasn't even discussed. And, Kushner, who so wanted to gloat about things involving Saudi Arabia, has skittered back into his dark corner.
17
@fact or friction Pompeo, the tough hombre when interrogating Hillary Clinton becomes a grinning buffoon when confronted with real bad people.
5
It was premeditated murder. They lured him in with a story about paperwork, flew in 15 thugs and a forensics expert on a private plane to Turkey, they've tried numerous crazy story lines, and now we find out they used a body double.
But you'll never hear Trump call it murder and he'll never do a thing about it.
14
Reading the ever changing Saudi narrative of contradictions, reminds me of Sir Walter Scott's quote: "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." To anyone who believes that the crown prince did not order the killing, I have some used tires I would like to sell you.
7
Enough! We, Americans, either acknowledge this gruesome murder and demand the appropriate government action or we stand labeled in our own minds and history as greedy cowards who do not value human life if it costs too much. There is no other conclusion.
17
Isn't monarchy just another word that means dictator-for-life? If you should ever find yourself being governed by a dictator-for-life, that's not a good situation.
5
This whole case definitely falls into the “stranger than fiction” category. It is horrible and also utterly demented. How in the world could the Kingdom have felt so threatened that they went to these lengths to silence one man?
4
Saudi authorities say they don't know where Khashoggi's body is. Let me guess. Remains of the body are in Saudi-Arabia where it was sent in diplomatic mail.
2
...And apparently didn't know his fiance was waiting outside? No comment on the Turks bugging the embassy? A body double nobody noticed until someone had to point it out? No body? This is a major crime, an inexcusable atrocity, carried out against a guy who was just trying to get his marriage license, for god's sake. Recognize the truth, and no amount of spin will make it go away, either.
10
The Crown Prince ordered the torture and the death of a journalist because he thought he could get away with it.
And he is right. He is getting away with it.
All the changing stories of...
—we don’t know where he is
—ok, he went into our consulate but probably went out the back door
—ok, so we have footages showing men going after him, one with a bone saw, could be rogue killers, right?
—ok, he might be dead, who knows as interrogations could sometimes go wrong, and yes, those are our people
—ok, he is definitely dead, what can we do except defend ourselves when he started a fist fight?
—ok, so we have a double so we can fool the US into believing he is still alive, what’s the big deal?
...only prove that he is getting away with it.
If by tomorrow, MBS says that the journalist was abducted by aliens, Trump, Kushner, and Pompeo will totally believe him.
Why let the death of “the enemy of the people” get in the way of an arms deal worth billions of dollars?
In the meantime, the House of Saud, like the House of Putin are laughing at how gullible Trump is.
“We are the laughingstock of the world. Everyone is laughing at us. Everyone.”
—Donald J. Trump
The 45th President of the United StateS
15
It’s very interesting. Even Saudis could not come up with the term Rouge Killers. Trump is much better at this than anybody else. About time rest of the world learns from Mr Trump. Who says US does not lead anymore m?
1
This is why they thought they could get away with a denial - they sent the autopsy doctor with a bone saw, the body double to make it seem he walked out, and the murder squad.
But - the Turkish officials tapes, and the fiancee in the front who would have never been fooled by the body double ruined that plan.
1
The Media has to push for the financial relationship between Kushner and the Prince. We know about the 666 Park Ave Bailout, but we need to know why our President is so reluctant to call out the Saudis on this atrocity.
5
The Saudis' "account" changes with every new fact. Now it looks like they will blame 18 of their citizens for the murder and not the Prince. Ridiculous. The support the Saudis received from Trump and Kushner have emboldened the Prince, he feels America will let him do anything he wants. I hope he isn't right.
6
The cover up is worse than the crime.
1
First, Donald knew the truth all along. Since he peddled the lies MBS was telling him.
Next, Jarred Kushner and company were bailed out by Saudi money.
Finally, the arms and aircraft deal that Donald made with the Saudis SHOULD be STOPPED! Not another weapon to this rogue regime! They stand for everything America once, stood for!
PLEASE VOTE send a strong and LOUD message to Donald and his Trumpists!
7
"The use of a “body double” suggests a premeditated plan to make Mr. Khashoggi disappear, through death or abduction, and to cover it up — " That and the bone saw. .
3
This is like the gang who couldn't shoot straight or possibly didn't care , since the Saudis are too used to doing as they wish without accounting to anyone . They especially didn't count on Erdogan's reaction . Expect they assumed he would turn a blind eye since he rules with an iron fist . They also didn't count on the blowback . Sadly , the U.S. and Britain are more interested in selling arms to Saudi Arabia at the cost of a brutal murder . For shame ! It seems our leaders have lost any kind of moral compass or even the pretense of one .
3
In 1170 Henry II of England had to walk to Canterbury, barefoot, in a sack cloth and ashes, to be publicly flogged. This was penance for Henry's role in the murder of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Beckett. Henry had said, in a rage, "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest!?" whereupon 4 members of his entourage, 4 knights, took it upon themselves to do just that by crushing Thomas' skull on the steps of his church.
I keep thinking about that episode in European history now, because the echoes are so clear. But the distinction is clear too: in Europe, in 1170 the king was not above the law. A succession of clashes in Europe-- the magna Carta, the Diet of Worms-- limited the power of the government and created a culture that prized a separation of powers, and limitations on power. In Saudi Arabia, I wonder if those traditions have not ever been established. It seems that the role of religion in SA has been only to validate the House of Saud, never to question, counter, or check it. I doubt that this moment will result in any Thomas Beckett moment for MbS-- the Saudi's cannot allow him to be held to account. That's not a precedent they can have set. Contrast: it is almost 1000 years since Henry II made his penance.
I'm not trying to make any political point, but if I was... it would be that I wish to heaven we had leadership in the US that would take this murder as seriously as it needs to be taken and would act with the moral courage to make it right.
7
The disappearance of Journalist Jamal Khashoggi at the Consulate General of Saudi Arabia in Istanbul, shows that we are facing a new “making future” event unfolding. In these events, there is always two common variable; the evidence is false and witnesses are liar. Saudi Arabia's officials are always covering up. While the Turkish Government and Turkish media are showing the viewer only the misleading evidence. This time, unlike the previous ones, there may be a purpose of covering an event that had occurred before. Those who want to solve the event can approach the truth if they follow the Turkish fiancée of the journalist. In my opinion, Khashoggi did not die and began his new life in one of the South American states.
An appropriate response by the US to the Khashoggi killing would be to kick out the Saudi ambassador and to lobby other countries to do likewise. Such a step would send a strong message and may lead to the crown prince's ouster in short order.
5
Diplomatic relations with this nation of rogues must end worldwide.
Every nation that has a consulate or embassy in Saudi Arabia must close; and every nation that has a Saudi office in it should shut it down.
Economic sanctions are just the beginning to censure them; we must cease all trade with them. There is NOTHING they have that we need.
6
Why Americans are so fascinated by the story of this guy? I have no idea who he was until last few days. Is he so vital to our national security? To me, I am worry about China's sneaky way to compete with us. Stealing our secrets.
@chinaghost well you have no idea and care not about morals and international politics; China is not only news in the world
3
I got up early Sunday morning and was surprised to be bathing in a pot of gold. You see, I awoke at the end of the rainbow. I'm still in the tub because it feels just so good, yet company just arrived. On the saddle of my pet unicorn sits Santa and he is talking to Elvis. A certain autocrat with a yellow nest atop atop his head is approaching. You know the one, he who made not only his country but the whole world great. Excuse me, great again!
Alright, alright. This sounds about as credible as the fantasy concocted about Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance. The best that could be scripted after 18 days was to say he fell victim to a fist fight? Surely there's no connection between what happened and a 15-man team sent from Riyadh, one who was the kingdom's most senior forensics expert. Also, the bone saw more than likely was but a coincidence. Mere fist fight gone rogue in the consulate. And a chokehold that ended in death. Definitely believable.
Excuse me. I need to get out of this bath of gold and get on with my conversation with Santa, Elvis, and Captain Chaos.
1
Our national descent continues.
Withough a Democratic victory in the upcoming election, we will find there is no bottom to how far we can sink.
3
Why in the world would Saudi Arabia have expected Mr. Trump to do anything about their torture, murder and dismemberment of Mr. Khashoggi, despite the mounting evidence? An American president has both soft power and explicit power. The explicit power comes from the legal prerogatives of the office. The soft power comes from the example they set. Since the inauguration, it has become clear that the second category is as significant as the first, here and around the world. The president demonizes journalists. He lies blatantly and constantly. He has not defended the human rights of folks in other countries. He has been especially affectionate toward autocratic leaders who have tortured, imprisoned, or murdered their own journalists and political adversaries. His own corruption is all-pervasive. Why would the Saudis have expected Trump's America to do anything at all?
5
I just read the report regarding Jared Kushners' take on his good buddy MBS, the Saudi Crown Prince, and his speculation on what occurred.
Needless to say, Kushner is willing to accept any Saudi explanation, including an alien abduction, so long as "Americas" meaning Trumps financial relations with the Saudis is not adversely affected.
To date, everything I've read about this horrendous atrocity committed by the House of Saud, and the cover being offered by Trump and his thugs, has one central theme to it, and that of course is that the life of a journalist who had the chutzpah to seek to tell the truth about the brutal repressive Saudi regime, is meaningless when weighed against the financial hit to the House of Trump, and other myriad American corporate interests.
Time for our weak-kneed Congress to step to the fore, and make some effort to assure a doubting world that we are not all thieves, and murderers.
6
"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" People in power never ask directly. They just imply that someone disappearing would make them very happy. This method of wielding power is as old as human civilization and just as evil as it has ever been.
It is a small step from "enemy of the people" to Jamal Khashoggi. Does anyone really think that the Saudi's were not listening to Trump's position on the press. Or that the US President uses the same tactics as the Saudi's are trying to use to whitewash this?
5
How different this would all be if the Saudis didn’t have so much oil and buy so many weapons.
4
Khashoggi's about to be wife is being guarded because she knows what happened not because of "online abuse". The Turkish government probably want to threaten SA in order to extract some kind of financial benefit. Why else don't they show the tapes and all other evidence? What is this trickle of evidence about?
1
"President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said that he would soon reveal everything Turkey knows about the case."
Erdogan has strung out his slow release of information for more than a week. He is obviously still secretly negotiating with the Saudis for a payoff to his liking, although the longer this drags on the less credible any resultant joint story is likely to prove.
One also has to wonder if US intelligence agencies have intercepted any elements of the ongoing Erdogan-Saudi conversation over settling the Khashoggi matter. And if they have, whether they are sharing this information with Trump and his inner circle.
5
"Saudi Arabia needs to do more to determine the truth and hold those responsible accountable, the countries said."
Saudi Arabia already knows the truth, but will never admit it.
3
The case of M. Khashoggi has attracted worldwide attention and disgust, due to its particularly brutal and brazen character. We should not forget, however, that during this year alone, as of now some seventy journalists have been murdered because of their work. Recent European cases include reporters in Slovakia, Bulgaria and Malta. How many journalists have been assassinated in Russia during the past few years? Latin America, certain African countries, and parts of Asia are horrendous killing grounds for journalists. And the violent rhetoric practiced by both would-be and actual autocrats certainly doesn't help.
These men and women are risking their lives to bring us reliable information about the world, speaking truth to power. I admire them enormously, and hope they remain safe.
8
We are told that 30,000 US jobs would be affected by cutting off arms deals to Saudi Arabia. Therefore we are required to dance with the devil and sell our souls. Meanwhile, Sears is rapidly going out of business and will soon be tossing their 140,000 employees out on the street; but that's just "the market at work." Isn't it amazing how jobs are sacred when it serves a political purpose and makes the right guys rich, but are utterly disposable otherwise? What a world.
17
Evidence that the US has picked the wrong friends. Turkey and Iran are far from pristine democracies, but better than Egypt and Saudis.
An alliance between Turkey and Iran looks increasingly likely, making the attempt to isolate Iran fragile. Russia waits in the wings; there could be a big realignment in the Middle East with the US on the sidelines.
Trump’s lack of subtlety and nuance has exposed obvious contradictions in US policy. These needed to be fixed – but not like this.
5
"Khashoggi Double Sent to Create False Trail in Turkey, Surveillance Images Suggest"
Meanwhile, in another article in today's NYTimes:
" Kushner Says White House Is Still ‘Fact-Finding’ on Khashoggi but Will Do What’s ‘Best’ for Americans."
Trump won't do anything based on Kushner's "advise".
After all, Kushner is an advisor to Trump, and money is the golden idol !
The fact-finding that Kushner purports to be gathering is whether or not Trump and family fortunes will weaken if he even thinks of punishing the Saudis for this horrendous killing.
28
Kushner said: “We’re getting facts in from multiple places. Once those facts come in, the secretary of state will work with our national security team to help us determine what we want to believe.”
"help us determine what we want to believe." ?
shouldn't that be :
"help us determine what to believe?"
417
@angel98 Be more to the point, We will base our conclusion on facts, if possible, and if no firm facts can be relied upon, then on the most likely events fitting the facts that we have.
Have the members of the cleaning and painting crew been in any car accidents? How about a chance to discuss with them what they did inside the compound?
They are undoubtedly sifting through the alternative facts to find something that allows them to do business as usual with the Saudi’s.
1
@angel98
That is either the greatest Freudian slip I've ever heard or the most blatant example of "Newspeak" outside Orwell's fictional 1984.
Once they determine what they "want to believe, the "facts" from "multiple" sources will be winnowed to those that support the desired narrative. After that the rest of us had better "want to believe" the same things or be accused of believing in "fake news". And after that it's only a small step to being punished and an even smaller step to be disappeared.
These are very dangerous times. Vote as if your lives depend on it. Because very soon they just might.
1
MBS and his subservient henchmen may have crafted a version of the commonplace scheme of plausible deniability to enable him to disavow knowledge or complicity in Khashoggi's murder. The scheme has a long and varied history and is regularly used in both government and business. For example, a couple years ago it was used in England by the Murdoch's to deny participation in the grotesque phone message scandal whereby a murdered girl's family was led to believe she was still alive because Murdoch's paper News of the World had hacked her phone and kept it active. They knew she was dead, but for the sake of selling papers and making a profit, they made it seem she was possibly still alive. The Murdoch's were able to claim no direct knowledge of the scheme, but their beforehand insinuations made clear that some money-making scheme like this was what they wanted.
Of course, the most often cited dramatic incident of this is Henry II declaiming about Thomas Becket "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" We all know how that turned for Beckett.
According to Wikipedia, Henry was "bullying, [had]bursts of temper and, on occasion, his sullen refusal to speak at all." That may not describe MBS, but about whom else does that sound familiar?
11
A "...steady stream of leaks..." by the Turkish Government is disconcerting. They certainly seem to be relishing this situation.
The Turkish Government also has some complicity in Mr. Khashoggi's murder. After all, they created the bureaucratic necessity for him to fetch a marriage form from the Saudi embassy. If they wanted to push him into the embassy, all they needed to do was to create some bureaucratic reason for him to go there. Why endanger a known foreign dissident by forcing him into the embassy of his former country?
17
@W
I would liked to have had all the info sooner than later, but perhaps the Turkish police don't want to reveal all the evidence, so that the Saudi's can not refine their cover story.
I'm not surprised a govt. would insist on proof of divorce prior to issuing a marriage license. I suppose it is the same here in the US.
I think that it is reasonable to expect a citizen should be safe in an official govt. office, and the violation of that is what demonstrates the crown prince is not fit to be a leader.
3
To be fair, an embassy is supposed to be safe. This is a major violation of norms. Not just a killing, but torture and dismemberment?
Though I have absolutely no trust of Turkeys government, I have to admit this drip- drip media policy they are practicing is keeping the attention on the story around the whole world, in a way it would not if they released everything they know at once. They are forcing the Saudis to explain themselves, then proving their explanations to be lies. And so the Saudis attempt to explain it away again. It's a smart play and the other media should take note when it comes to trapping lying authorities in their own lies.
3
Does the US not require evidence of divorce before a new marriage is allowed? (Turkey does not allow polygamy.
By the way, child marriage (11, 12 years) is allowed in most us states, and happens a lot in conservative christian circles, when older men get young girls pregnant. It shocked me to read that.
All in all: Get of your high horse concerning turkey.
I'm just guessing here...I have no special training or experience in espionage. But my guess is state agencies--FBI, CIA, Mossad, KGB, etc.--make it a point to know exactly what other state agencies are up to. For example, the Turkish police, or agency responsible for keeping track of the Saudi consulate, seemed to track everything about Mr Khashoggi's visit to the Saudi consulate. Surely if that were not the case a standard police inquiry after Khashoggi's disappearance would not have unearthed much, what with phony video and expert forensic assistance applied as the crime was committed.
My point is that state agencies could--if they so desired--create trouble for other nations with regularity, if they so desired. For example, the KGB must know more about the Russian meddling in the US 2016 election than they care to discuss. And I'm sure the US has dirt on Russian officials.
My question is, assuming my assumptions about government surveillance are correct, why did Turkey "out" Saudi Arabia? ...which also causes the US some heart ache...
Obviously Turkey is a bit paranoid following a recent coup attempt. And, Turkey is fighting for influence in Sunni world. But, why not use this information--obvious proof of criminal intent--privately?
Does Turkey think they can topple the Saudi regime? Turkey obviously doesn't plan on cooperation with Saudi Arabia anytime soon. What is the gambit here?
11
@michael not topple the Saudis, but create a united front against them. Iran is not as isolated as Trump thinks it is and there is a clear geopolitical case for a Turkey-Iran alliance, possibly even including Iraq. Particularly since Turkey elected an Islamist president.
1
@michael - "Why did Turkey "out" Saudi Arabia" : Black Gold !
@Philip M
Philip, appreciate the heads up. Could you outline that Turkey-Iranian alliance for me? I don't see Turkey facilitating-ever-Iranian influence on the Mediterranean. I realize Iran has tremendous influence in Lebanon, but don't see how Turkey can be happy about that or Iranian influence filling the void in Syria, linking Tehran to the Mediterranean. But, as i pointed out in my initial post, I am not an expert in spy thought. Add geopolitical thinking to the list. Would like to hear your reasoning.
One wonders about the audiotape -- hard to figure how SecState or most all other outsiders could have understood it -- in that the conversation would have been entirely in Arabic. Presumably the Turks have provided a cliffnotes translation.
2
The world is full of Arabic speakers, and plenty of them are employed by, e.g., the State Department, Department of Defense, the Three Letter Agencies . . .
2
No, most of the world does not speak English. To you, maybe, but not among ourselves. So yes, if you, or monolingual countrymen of yours want to understand it, it will have to be translated.
That is so obvious that I am scratching my head as to what your point is....
2
@pancho huddle You are kidding right. You are actually saying that the US SecState does not have people who speak Arabic? Perhaps they were all asked to leave when Trump was elected. Who needs anyone who speaks a language other than English when the prevailing view is USA first. (sarcasm) Just for the record Ethnologue put Arabic as the 5th most commonly spoken language in the world. Just behind Hindi and English.
1
Chokehold? Really? Then why dispose of the head which would provide valuable corroborative evidence of death by strangulation? As any forensic doctor would know. This new explanation is as implausible as those preceding.
51
I am sure that MBS, Jared, and Donald never anticipated that the cold blooded torture and murder of the non alpha male Jamal Khashoggi would create a sustained international uproar. After all, he was just a journalist but apparently more dangerous to them than they ever reckoned.
These are people who have done nothing for anyone except themselves and who would be corrupt to their souls if in fact any of them had souls. They’ve gone through life cheating, destroying, lying and have managed to escape any real consequence. Surely they imagined that a middle aged journalist would disappear from life and the news after a few days.
Having Turkey in the mix has proven a bit challenging for the princelings Jared and MBS. And the Washington Post shows no sign of letting this go. The boys may have met their match. I hope so. I hope the world does not let this go. The truth will be what will allow Khashoggi’s soul to be at rest.
22
Just think if all the time and creativity and financial resources put forth in the effort to cover up what the Saudis did was put to good use in making their country a better, safer, and saner place to live.
Just think, too, if the US had a president unwilling to put the prestige of this country behind such a transparent cover-up. And if he, too, worked on improving relations with the press so that they wouldn't have to fear being killed or, as in Montana, strangled and "body slammed" when these reporters are just trying to do their jobs and get the truth to the public.
Just think.
And make sure everyone you know (and some you don't) votes in two weeks.
32
@avrds Just think if babies and toddlers of would-be immigrants were not separated from their parents at the borer, kidnapped, and trafficked across state lines.
1
I still contend a very plausible logical explanation that Khashoggi was killed in a premeditated fashion because his writing posed a very serious threat to the continuance of American Saudi relations, oil flow and arms sales, as well as a strategic military necessity. I believe Khashoggi was lured out of the safety of the states to be killed with the knowledge and compliance of both America and Saudi Arabia. The fact that so much was at stake with him writing here and the fact that no one warned him of what they knew about the threat to him supports my contention.
81
@Shakinspear - The 3 Stooges could have pulled off a more-credible hit..
2
Likely as we are certainly the evil empire.
2
His actual horrid murder has just barely put a crimp in business as usual. I don’t think his voice posed a threat big enough to make this murder anything but deranged.
1
What's interesting is that the best case scenario from the perspective of the Saudi crown is that these high ranking government officials got a little overzealous in interpreting the crown's order to "return" dissidents to SA. What could that order possibly mean other than to drag a guy kicking and screaming out of another sovereign nation into SA? Are we to believe that the crown honestly thought that the target would come back of his own volition based on verbal powers of persuasion to a country that has a history of torturing dissidents? Would need to be some really impressive persuaders (who also apparently brought along a bone saw and a body double for the occasion). Even assuming the intent was not to hack this guy up and dump his body into an undisclosed location (which it clearly was), flying a team into a sovereign nation with intent to kidnap a journalist is pretty clearly a violation of international laws and norms of conduct. I recognize we overlook these kinds of things where the violation occurs within the country in question itself, and I think that may be the only practical way to deal with the fact that there are so many crazy dictators out there. I think there's a valid argument that we may have to essentially pick our poison and occasionally find areas where we can work with people, even bad people. Still, it's a different matter when the violation spills out into other countries, particularly where the victim is a US resident and presumably pays US taxes.
10
@Bill
You said: "..... pretty clearly a violation of international laws and norms of conduct."
Since the demise of the Soviet Union, the World is the Wild West (of the 1860), and the law breaking desperadoes are the Aal al-Saud, and the United States. The law-less desperadoes recognise no law, so how could they be violating them. When it suits them, they violate each and every treaty they sign. To America military power and money is everything; to the al-Sauds American protection and robbing Arab wealth is everything.
That may be essentially correct, however, executing and dismembering a journalist in another sovereign nation for the crime of reporting a viewpoint that is antithetical to the ruler(s) of that country, is pretty bad even by our low standards. For example, the US government may have an interest in getting its hands on Ed Snowden, and if it really wanted to make it happen it would, yet it has not as of yet done that, and I doubt it ever would. Note that Snowden did more than simply report a view. He hacked classified information and distributed it out without regard to what it might do to the security of this nation, and his actions are defined as a crime in our laws. Not saying that his actions clearly merit punishment, and maybe it even merits a thank you by the American people for letting us know what our government actors were up to, but, notwithstanding the fact that we are the most powerful nation of all time, our leaders apparently have some limits to the depravity they are willing to sink to.
Turkey has in recent years become a dictatorship with a selective respect for the truth. That makes it all the more imperative that the western new media continue (as they have thankfully been doing so far) to examine and analyze this matter independently.
Whatever its ultimate policy implications, this case has become a litmus test of a very contemporaneously significant struggle between truth and cover-up. It also amounts to an acid test of whether President Trump can, for once at least, show himself capable of acting to uphold the interest of the United States in siding with truth and against deceit.
3
@Sage they are far less dictatorship (as you wrongly call it as if unaware that Turkey is a democracy and president gets elected) than here in the USA so there you go
This proves the Saudi's premeditation in the brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi.
Why haven't the Saudis who carried out this assassination been extradited to Turkey yet? There has been an admission of guilt and an overwhelming amount of evidence.
They should be transported by a neutral third party to ensure that they arrive and aren't killed in an "accident".
11
Again, not our fight.
We, the high and might US of A, do the same thing routinely, and even to our own citizens abroad. Don’t be naive.
3
@Simon, it's our fight if we make it our fight. And it doesn't have to be the last one.
2
MBS, if you’re listening:
Don’t go down alone! Reveal what deal Trump or Kushner was trying to negotiate with you in exchange for silence on the Kashoggi killing.
I think you will be rewarded mightily by our press for that transparency...
84
It's pretty likely that Trump administration is advising them to ride it out until the midterms when the media's collective attention will be diverted elsewhere. That's literally the one thing Trump understands, media hype.
Journalists, please don't let that happen. This is the most important Middle-east story in one and a half decades. He was one of you. We're all with you. Please do not let this one go until MBS is held accountable.
79
Almost (painfully) funny. Except they butchered someone. I don't buy for a second the story about a "negotiation" or "discussion" gone awry. They could have sent one or two people to a meeting, not a team of killers. They saw an opportunity to get Khashoggi, and they went for it. Why? Because MBS is recklessly aggressive. We live in an era of ubiquitous camera surveillance; the Mossad was busted after assassinating Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh in Dubai, and Russian agents identified after the attempted assassination of Segei Skripal. The Saudis have neither the competence nor the experience of the Israelis or the Russians. They're way out of their league and playing with fire.
146
@TT That's the problem in autocratic states. They expect everyone to believe what they say, often out of fear. They don't have the creativity to come up with stories to fool the rest of us, since they have a hard time imagining that they aren't believed.
2
@TT If anything, the guy with the bone-saw is a little hard to explain away.
I could walk down the street and find more discrete hit men. I have a hard time believing that these guys are really this operationally inept.
I think they were sending a message to other journalists.
22
1) The Saudis obviously thought that they could do this without much notice, or they would have been more careful. They are not stupid, just arrogant. This should scare everyone. Are we setting a new standard of behavior if we let this pass?
2) Trump seems to admire them and Putin and wishes he could do the same thing. Why was he meeting with defense contractors instead of intelligence community. Every turn is a chance to enrich themselves. Do we even know the extent of Trumps investments in private prisons, immigration detention centers and weapons? Human misery=Profit and no pretense of setting a good example. I wonder if we can ever regain what legitimacy the US had for setting international standards after this guy is done stealing from the people?
21
This is what happens in countries with a single all-powerful ruler who can silence all dissent, which is what Trump and his minions and groupies want for the US. VOTE THEM OUT.
33
Hope, WA-5 is getting the vote out for Lisa Brown. Just donated to her.
1
@Mari I’m currently at the get-out-the-vote rally for her in downtown Spokane with many other supporters.
Mr. Bone Saw should be required to take a lie detector test conducted by independent international organization.
11
What about Khashoggi’s fiancée who waited 11 hours for her loved one. Obviously she was not fooled.
10
@MT Welch I have been wondering a lot about her ( the fiancee) !! I have only heard - now from you - that she waited 11 hours? Parked nearby? What was she doing? Who talked to her?
This is a country that should not be sold anything.
24
Trump is failing miserably at his first real crisis. Completely expected since he has proven he can't really deal with the real world and must concoct lies to try to deflect issues.
15
I think you mean crisis #43...and yes, he is failing...
2
So when Canada's Foreign Minister tweeted about Saudi Arabia's violation of human rights one would have thought from the Saudi reaction we were terrible to criticize them. What was heard from the US - crickets!!
If Trump and the rest of his sycophants had of said something-anything to support Canadian position on human right that my have been enough to give MSB a second thought about proceeding with this atrocity.
50
This MBS is a loose cannon, arresting his own family members and mistreating them. Kidnapping the prime minister of Lebanon and having him slapped silly till he resigned his position in Lebanon. Reform? You mean letting women drive while imprisoning the women who led the movement to get the right to drive? And he is imprisoning any dissident and anyone else he so chooses. Now this journalist's murder. He's like some other recent leaders, who believe that their power cannot be questioned, and who bully the whole world as if every human being is a hostage to their personal pleasure. It's time we stopped listening to the half-baked lies they tell--half-baked because they don't care to be believable, such is the power they think they have. We need to make a stand, many, really, and this is as good a place as any to start.
149
@jb We might consider starting closer to home by indicting everyone involved in "separating" hundreds of children (or is it thousands?) from their parents – er, kidnapping them – and shipping them across state lines.
@jbThat,too, yes, and I am doing all I can--it is an atrocity. But this as well. If we say do this, forget that, we will be diverted and worse. Do what is before you. And yes it is a lot. Do it anyway.
And in a related story, Jared Kushner says: Once those facts come in, the secretary of state will work with our national security team to help us determine what we want to believe.”
What we WANT to believe? How about believing the facts that seem so transparent now: MBS had Khashoggi murdered in a premeditated manner, went so far as to have a body double pretend to be Khashoggi, and gave his body to 'someone' to dispose. No wonder all the despots and dictators take Trump and his family to be fools.
53
I think the Saudis should suspend any more lies until we find out what Turkey will eventually tell the world.
4
This horrendous and cowardly act just highlights how, with money and Power one can do and get away with just about anything.
A journalist murdered inside an embassy in broad daylight with cameras rolling and tons of incriminating evidence.
Three weeks later not a single sanction, shame on us all starting with the so called leader of the free world.
R.I.P. Jamal!
23
The trouble with the selection of an outsider is that what passes for independence from the political process is such a partial description. The description is tangential to what New Yorkers have long known is a better description: a cold flim-flam man who was given the forum to pretend, via a “reality” show, that he was competent at something other than the con.
Trump said that he trouble with the Saudi murder was that it “caught the imagination of the world, unfortunately”. Control over the base’s perception of right and wrong cannot be total, and that is “not a positive”. Grabbing women by the genitals is no big deal, compared to kissing a murdering Arab’s behind. His base is wavering on this and on pre-existing health conditions
8
The only question left for what is left of our attempt at civilization is: Are the Saudis and Trump going to get away with this?
With life going this cheap, all of our lives are in danger when we allow immoral, money-grubbing, power-hungry fools to rule our lives.
30
A body-double, thought of right after an unexpected fist fight, no less. Quick thinkers, them Saudis. Er, I meant LIARS.
26
@Bill
Don't forget the bone saw
3
Panicked by the accidental death of Khashoggi, the Saudi embassy quickly arranged for a body double to arrive earlier in the day.
46
@A. Conley
Funny, but Trump supporters will believe this.
4
It's clear now Trump cuts Optics off on Bad Press and turns Optics on Good Press for him. That's why this Caravan heading north is getting so much Press. Plays into his narrative. Khashoggi Murder-not so much. His Base doesn't read--they watch-Fox New, any optics tailored for their precise annoyance. This Optics Game is marketed as much as Corn Flakes..........
16
Mohammad bin Salman is a new Saddam Hussein.
He is young, could be around 50 years.
He has oil.
He has a strong modern army.
He is a despot.
He already has gone to war in Yemen.
He has hegemonic ambitions.
He is an enemy of Iran.
In the war with Iraq, Iran lost 750000 people.
If Iran wants to prevent a new aggression it needs nuclear
weapons ASAP, because this time it would not be fighting one army but three: Saudi Arabia, USA and Israel.
9
@Carca Peru
Well, there's proof Iran has never stopped working on nuclear weapons, so that should make you correct and happy. Of course, they promise weekly to destroy Israel and the U.S., but I supposed that's not important.
And your president just made that all the more likely
1
@Carca Peru, he's 33.
Ho, that's about as clever as your typical Hollywood movie script, which, unfortunately for them, isn't really very.
1
This story is progressing like Trump Tower Meeting 3.0!
8
Amazing. Just when we think this story can't get any more bizarre, it blooms in perverseness. I think that the Saudis have put themselves in the position that trump is in: so much lying leads to the obliteration of their credibility to intelligent people.
Trump seems to offer a helpful posture to the Saudis; he can help this horrible story go away as he manipulates the news cycle.
Trump's role is to continue the flow of wealth from Saudi Arabia to U.S. corporate interests. The Khashoggi double is another bump along trump's fascist road that he has to negotiate. He has to be careful; this time he could break an axle.
16
Walking around yelling "I'm Khashoggi, just left the Saudi embassy without my fiancee who's still waiting there for me", I suppose.
11
This is the logical end to unchecked income and power inequality. We are allowing vast wealth to act as an override to morality, We have a situation in which an entitled prince believes it's his prerogative to settle a difference of opinion with one of the in-house bone saw guys, who happens to be on salary.
And yet we have no coherent response or remedy.
Our federal government should sponsor nationwide consumer tax credits for a move to solar energy, and pay for it out of our military budget.
7
@Billy Obama taught us how corrupt government-sponsored investments in the solar industry can be with Solyndra. While I understand you want our government to be as corrupt as the Saudis, slow your roll a bit -- fortunately, stuff like this doesn't happen in most capitalist countries!
15 Saudi guys, including an autopsy doctor (with tools) and a body double and a lot of suitcases, go to Istanbul to ask Mr. Khashoggi to come to Saudi with them? Mr. Khashoggi gets murdered immediately, and Saudi says it was a tragic unintentional accident? Right.
80
@Pau
Trump supporters will believe it whatever Trump tells them to believe, no matter how ridiculous it happens to be.
2
If there was no blood on the victim's clothes, they must have stripped him before they began chopping off his fingers. The audio tape will reveal all...
26
@San Francisco Voter
Why ruin a good suit?
5
They obviously took his clothes off first because they needed them clean for the body double to wear.
1
@Mark Shyres
too soon
Now something that was horrifying as is has tipped into super creepy and stupendously stupid.
23
@DMS
Very well said!
1
Surprise, surprise, the dissimulator in chief would like to take the psychopathic desert brigand who currently controls the House of Saud at his word.
Let us not forget, however, how Obama tried to put the kibosh on holding the Saudi clan to account for their alleged roles in 9-11.
Trump, Bush and Obama. When it comes to appeasing the oil-rich but murderous enemies of America and Americans, they are all one of a kind.
5
I imagine the dismemberment must have been an accident as well.
29
Trump and Saudis really deserver each other. Incompetent liars.
47
30,000 American jobs depending on that £110bn Saudi arms deal.
President Trump has said that upsetting the Saudis isn't a price worth paying. The deal counts for more than the life of one journalist.
For the first time I've seen the British left wing press applauding Mr Trump. For his integrity in admitting the reality of the situation. He's the only Western leader so far.
3
@nolongeradoc The $110 billion Saudi arms deal is fake....claimed by an Administration known for its incessant lies, and propagated by a lazy press...and lazy journalists.
It's a mishmash of sales agreements made by President Obama and subsequent letters of intent (which are not worth the paper they're typed on). Plus the Saudis don't have that kind of "loose' change anymore.
Here's Brookings Institute's study on this matter: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/markaz/2017/06/05/the-110-billion-arms-de...
28
The $110billion figure is wildly inflated when compared to recent and current spending. Arms trade between the USA and SA was about 3 billion last year, and of the 110 figure only 14-15 billion have actually been written up in contracts (for the next several years). The 110 billion figure is more of a Saudi wish list than anything reflecting reality.
9
Would you be willing to give the life of your first born to guarantee another 30000 jobs?
7
Three weeks before Jamal Khashoggi's murder, Trump made a deal which involves the Saudi government in Indonesia.
https://www.citizensforethics.org/trump-organization-business-partner-si...
16
So what should be MBS's punishment?
I don't think that they will remove him from being the heir apparent.
Perhaps he should have to give his 300 million French chateau to the poor, or to a charity that could operate it as a hotel. France should just take it over. Where is his 500 million dollar yacht, take that too. And does he have bank accounts in England or the US, take those over.
Deny him entry to Europe and the US.
71
@Finnbar In every country of the world there are only two punishments for murder. (1) long prison sentence (2) execution.
1
The sheer clumsiness of the killing within the embassy in such a high profile international incident lends some credence to the idea of an abduction gone awry. If at the highest levels of the kingdom they simply wanted him dead, why not simply assassinate him somewhere in Istanbul, in the manner of the CIA or Mossad, which would allow for more deniability when a body suddenly turned up in the Bosphorus? As a dissident who openly denigrated MBS, it would seem like there would have been much less obvious ways to eliminate him and to cast doubt on who was to blame. At any rate, why the righteous rush for the US to be the disciplinarian for the world? Why immediately cancel our arms deal risking billions? Why risk a huge recession with the spiraling price of oil? Why jeopardize the goals we have with regard to Iran and with Israel? What is the problem with waiting for the Saudis to release more information from their own investigation, before we charge ahead to take action at full speed? I certainly support President Trump in this regard.
19
@toddchow: You don't need bone saws, and decoys wearing the murdered man's clothing if it's going to be an abduction.
2
@toddchow Heaven forbid we lose "billions" in arms sales to a country that was instrumental in the 9/11 attacks.
1
@toddchow, why the bone saw?
So the Saudis have bumbled their way through a dozen different versions of various stories, trying to find one that will stick.
And Trump professes to believe whatever they throw at us.
Looks like there's another case of "NO COLLUSION!" going on here.
117
@KJ Trump wouldn’t lie to us, would he?
4
KJ in Tennessee, At least we haven't heard the words fake news nor witch hunt (yet)!
1
@KJ "rogue killers," "strong denial" – these are tells that we've heard from Trump before.
Taking the long view there is no other way to view this than a Saudi win. They’ve successfully murdered a journalist critical of the crown and will not pay dearly on the international stage.
The capitalists in our government still smother them with love and weapons.
The Saudis (with the help of the American government) have sent the warning to anyone who opposes their rule that they will be met with torture and death.
A dark day in the history of “humanity”.
390
@Greg Giotopoulos
I'm afraid it's been dark worldwide for many centuries. This is just another day of it.
3
Wrong, they’ve already paid dearly. They have our and our allies’ attention in a way they most definitely would prefer not to have it. They deserve worse and hopefully they’ll get it, but to suggest that the hit of a single journalist, even including within that the quieting effect it has on others inclined to criticize the crown, was worth all this negative publicity is just wrong. The damages done to the Saudi government easily exceed billions of dollars in cash value possibly more like hundreds of billions depending on how we respond.
4
I disagree. This "crown prince" is out. The UAE installed him, and the UAE will now have to reckon with a resurgent Turkey-Iran-Qatar axis. They will quietly shove him aside and put someone else there, with the backing of the US, who won't stand for a rogue at the helm of the American model poodle, which the Saudis have been for half a century, in the heart of the Middle East.
1
Does it really take 18 men to murder one sixty-one year old man?
This defies logic.
The United States needs to stop selling arms to the Saudi's. So should England and France. After all, it was a Saudi plot by Saudi citizens that caused 9/11/01. And instead we attack Afghanistan and Iraq and leave Saudi-Arabia off the hook. Thanks to both Bush's and Dick Cheney.
And now we have Trump and Pompeo wanting us to believe that they are waiting for proof, when there has been enough leaking by the Turks to pretty much confirm that Khashoggi was assassinated by 18 men and dismembered. And more than likely directed by MSB.
There is no reason that Turkey should not release their proof immediately. Is there something in it for Erdogan? Is Trump promising Erdogan something or are the Saudi's?
Trump and Mike Pompeo must know by now what is actually going on. What is the purpose of having a State Department if not to check the accuracy of information in a very quick manner.
But then Trump has Financial incentive not to pursue this much further.
76
@Jean
The only thing any arms deal cancelation will effect is more middle men (plus middle country ((and other country))) arms deals. And probably nothing more than a small delay. Ironically, Khashoggi's uncle was one of the world's most successful, notorious leading arms dealers of the last century. In case anyone else has not noticed, the Khashoggi story is already losing traction (and space) daily in news media across the country and world (perhaps with the exception of the NY Times). I checked five other major newspapers yesterday and it was either no longer on the front page, or a secondary story "below the fold". The LA Times big story today was baseball. Khashoggi will soon be replaced by story of the Honduras migrants coming through Mexico, or something else like the stock market...as is the U.S. Supreme Court nominee battle is just about forgotten in the newspapers with the Khashoggi stories. Just the way it is and has always been. Ok, I majored in Journalism at the U of Missouri School of Journalism...and that is old news as well.
3
@Mark Shyres
I appreciate your reply
‘Does it really take 18 men to murder one 61 year old journalist?’
No, just three. The other 15 were there to change the lightbulb.
2
I’m sure someone regrets just not putting a bar of soap on the floor for him to slip on. Too much education can lead to some pretty harebrained plans.
6
@John Doe, your suggested plan would not have included dismemberment of the body.
2
"The use of a “body double” suggests a premeditated plan ...", changes every story, excuse, explanation that I have been reading about in the NYTimes for the last several weeks. Now, just about the only confident assurances that I can muster on this subject is; may you rest in peace, Mr. Khashoggi and my sympathies to the family.
31
@carlo1 Are you willing to let the Saudi “leadership” off the hook?
3
@Northwoods Cynic
'We'll see what happens'.
The had me at forensic pathologist with bone saw.
10
Never in history has someone involved in the "accidental" death of another human being had someone else wear the decedent's clothing to conceal the "accidental" death.
Not only does the brutality of the Crown Prince's crime warrant every sanction our country can muster, but his sheer arrogance in his manner of denying culpability does as well.
We may have to live, for a time, with a liar for a leader of our country, but we don't have to tolerate leaders of other countries who torture, kill, and dismember journalists working for American news organizations and then clumsily lie about it.
144
I like how part of Saudi Arabia's official story is that "the team rolled up the body in a rug then gave the body to a local collaborator to dispose of."
Like they maintain a roster of "collaborators" in various foreign countries who specialize in the disposal of the bodies of assassination victims.
Nice folks, those Saudi's.
152
@Rosy – well that's just it, isn't it. To say that the US does not share their attitudes toward assassination of (perceived) foes would be a monumental understatement.
Or at least it had been until DT got installed in the WH.
The House of Saud seems to still be living in a by-gone century.
Why are they so afraid of the press? What else are they hiding?
5
This is proof that Khashoggi's murder was premeditated. Discussion over. And it could not have been a rogue operation. This is MBS's doing.
75
@William Dufort
It may be suspicious, but it is not proof. Sorry, try again.
@William Dufort
Actually the bone saw established premeditated murder. A fat guy with a fake beard turns this into an episode of that 60's TV show "Get Smart".
4
At what point is Trump aiding and abetting ? He's told the rogue-killer story, claimed the Saudi prince sounded sincere in denying, and has never spoken out as any US President should on something like this.
We know from his chummy treatment of Putin and tolerance with the Kremlin's murders, that Russia has something on him. How does SA have him over the barrel; a couple more prostitutes, a promise of a Trump Tower in Riyadh, some kickback on the $110B arms sales?
30
My cynical side believes Kushner is correct: this incident will blow over and become yesterday’s news. Those who care about justice and human rights will be drowned out by those more concerned about money, power and politics.
21
@William Just like McConnell said that the Kavanaugh business would blow over. I haven't forgotten that and never will - just like every other atrocity committed by this administration. But apparently you will.
7
I am hoping Erdogan will release the tapes on November 4 or 5th because they sound sensational enough to restart the whole story if it lags. Can’t decide if it’s better on the 4th so there is time for Trump to tweet something awful that might change some minds or if it’s better to spring them at the last minute when he will have no time to back pedal on his first response.
5
@acm I don't think @William hopes this will blow over - i think he is concerned that it will blow over! And good point about McConnell. I won't forget!
Well this has pre-meditation, consciousness of guilt, fraud, and criminal conduct written all over it. Trump is still calling their story credible I suppose.
16
This is unfortunately nothing new for the despotic Saudi Arabian regime. Scores of people who are deemed critical of the king, crown prince or the country's policies are killed in that country every year - it is de rigueur for Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and Syria. It is how strongmen, dictators and rulers behave. And it is what Donald Trump loves, the Republicans accept and the rest of us ignore. So what are you gonna to do about it ? The elections are only 2 weeks away !
33
Still, Trump looks for an excuse to excuse the Saudis in general and M.B.S. in particular. Related articles trumpet the bi-partisan congressional reaction to the Saudi lies, but aside from naming Bob Corker (who is in his last three months in office), Lindsey Graham (who will, in the end, find a way to agree with Trump's forgiveness of the Saud dynasty), and Rand Paul ('nuff said), where are the Republicans decrying this outrage? My Senators, Ted Cruz and John Cornyn, and Representative, John Ratcliffe, have been as vocal as a laryngitic ventriloquist's dummy.
The evidence is as overwhelming as the lava and ash that buried Pompeii, yet the silence from the larger Republican party is beyond deafening.
39
So, nothing whatsoever left to chance for this well organized & choreographed accident-on-purpose. One needs to utilize suspension of disbelief to deal with reality these days!
15
IMO it's high time the US stopped selling weapons to all and sundry. BTW given that Saudi Arabia was indirectly responsible for 9/11 and is directly responsible for the mess in Yemen -- and is a horrible repressive undemocratic regime, maybe it's time for US presidents (men) to start rethinking this relationship in its entirety.
We don't need their oil -- we are exporting ours -- so what is this all about anyway?
Women of the world UNITE.
30
@Make America Sane – totally agree! It's time. Even my son said "it's not like men have been doing such a great job!"
11
If it weren’t for Turkey messing with the Saudis’ minds, we would never have gotten confirmation from Saudi Arabia over Khashoggi’s death.
It’s not incomprehensible to see the Saudis not understanding what the fuss is about. They care two hoots about human rights and human lives. They just keep concocting stories in the hope that they will get away with it.
What is disgusting is the Trump administrations PR efforts on behalf of the Saudis. Trump actually engaged in feeding them the ‘Rogue Killer’ theory. Then he changed it to accept whatever nonsense the latest Saudi position was.
Even today kushner claims there is nothing confirmed. Still in the corner of that killer Mohammad Bin salman.
The question is: what’s in it for Trump and Kushner personally? What personal deal is Trump trying to negotiate as he holds back and watches the Saudis squirm? It’s not the weapons sales. It’s personal enrichment.
Let’s keep the spotlight on what Trump and Kushner get out of their support for killing and coverup.
54
@Patrician RE:what’s in it for Trump and Kushner personally?
Just money... Trump's favorite toy
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-and-saudi-arabia-deep-business-ties-s...
1
As Trump himself is fond of saying at his rallies, “What you are seeing, and what you are hearing, is not what is actually happening”.
31
The worst " Reality " Show, ever. CANCEL the Presidential Apprentice.
VOTE.
56
Face recognition technology has been known about in the public sphere for decades and the Saudis believed they could double Khashoggi?
11
The Russians are much more adept at killing people and not getting caught red handed. Am I correct in thinking that the Saudis seem really amateurish even naive in this murder. It seems the best you can say about this group is that they were really not good at their assignment.
I think they Saudis are thought of by our Government as being an someone that can help us in the Middle East. It is pretty clear that they would never make it in this world without their oil reserve.
17
I am puzzled about Erdogan's game plan with this slow walk to global stardom. Is he trying to supplant Saudi Arabia as the foundation stone of Islam or is it merely an attempt to burnish his creds with NATO to provide for more cover in taking over Turkey.
5
@Mister Ed –
more like Erdogan would rather not publicize the ways in which they've spied on the Saudi consulate (probably others too).
6
I guess MBS finally decided 'if Putin can have journalists killed, then why shouldn't I'? After all, Trump won't mind -- he thinks they're "enemies of the people."
87
All of this makes me wonder if Turkey knew that Mr. Kashoggi was about to be abducted or killed at the consulate, and failed to stop it in order to have something over MBS.
Turkey obviously had the intelligence to know the killing happened, they must also have the intelligence to know it was about to happen,
7
The body double, aside from the clothes, doesn't look at all like Mr. Khashoggi unless Mr. Khashoggi got hair plugs and a dye job inside the consulate. To prepare for this meeting, the Saudis brought a bone saw and a body double. That doesn't sound very accidental to me. This is a really clumsy assassination and attempted coverup that only Trump would believe.
30
The Saudi's conduct their assassinations with the same efficiency, professionalism, mercy, and forethought that they use in the Yemeni war.
12
"The use of a “body double” suggests a premeditated plan ..."
As does everything else.
31
Old proverb: "If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas."
New adage: "If you are mixed with the Saudis or Trump, you will get oil for armaments.'
8
Trump and Republicans have both morally and fiscally bankrupt America.
48
I guess the “spontaneous rogue killing” theory is out the window.
13
The basis of human nature is, "Lie, Cheat, Steal, Kill"....how long before Trump upgrades from "Steal"?
12
Where was this D-list script written? Riyahd? or Washington? An elementary school child could see through this charade in seconds?
What the Royal House of Saud should do is up and say: "We liquidated Jamal Khashoggi because he was an itch that we couldn't scratch. We persuaded the American president to back down on this because we were poised to order billions of dollars' worth of hardware for our military and defense apparatus. Donald Trump was concerned about the poor press and we persuaded him to say this was all about American jobs. He then smiled and said, "OK, guys, you're the boss."
And "We could have found other more convincing ways to eliminate this fly that kept buzzing around and we couldn't entrap. We became impatient and decided on a rather far-fetched scheme to kill him. It didn't go over well, but, well, he's out of the way and your American president will get to go on the campaign trail about all the jobs he created with our weapons purchases. And, in the end, everybody (who's somebody) is happy. And for the rest, well, what is your American saying? Tough rocks. Or something like that?"
17
"The use of a “body double” suggests a premeditated plan to make Mr. Khashoggi disappear, through death or abduction, and to cover it up —"
C'mon....SUGGESTS???
It absolutely PROVES a premeditated plan.
18
If it was an accident, why was a body double sent to Istanbul beforehand? And what need had they of bringing a bone saw?
8
Bravo Turkey for staging their release of intelligence to discredit each new lie as it comes out.
Eventually the truth will stand - this was a top-down, pre-meditated, but amateur-hour assassination.
Turkey, if you are listening, please release any tapes of US collusion in the cover-up - all we have is the painfully obvious blathering of the clown-in-chief.
18
@Paulunfortunately Trump would do evrything in power including rollback his financial attack on Turkey money attemting to remove Erdogan that way since they failed through Gulenist coup detat bringing back Erdoan's economy where it was prior to criminal attack by Trump and Trump may even collaborate with Saudis to 'work' the system to raise back Turkeys Lira value as Saudi do what america tells them thus hmmm
3
Maxwell Smart, with his serial “ Would you believe’s” couldn’t make this up.
11
Oh, sure.
These are the lengths you go to when someone dies accidentally.
20
Given the Saudi government's cruel devastation of Yemen and primitive propensity to thuggery and violence, no country--least of all, the U.S.--should be selling highly advanced weaponry (or even muskets and bows and arrows) to Saudi Arabia.
18
One problem with a tyranny is that loyalty is more important than competence. Thus you get a strange combination of savage cruelty and buffoonery in the death squad. The Kashoggi double wore the dead man's clothes but neglected to remove his own conspicuous white-striped sneakers. An incompetent buffoon, yet without scruples, seen laughing after his mission was accomplished. Just the kind of people who get employed by a tyrant.
39
We should end all diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia. It is long overdue.
26
Halt Arms Exports to Saudi Arabia. They didn't just kill a reporter--Saudi Arabia ordered a bin Laden hit on a journalist. Who wouldn't be proud to raise such a man-a law abiding, well read, intelligent man searching for the truth. And he's mutilated as if he ordered 9/11. Heinous, Vulgar, Barbaric Act
17
I find it very interesting that the Saudis created this illusion, but never actually used it. They never claimed "...hey, look, he left the building alright...".
This may be due to the fact that the doppelganger wasn't really looking like the journalist they killed. Just look at the hair. No clothing will change the fact that Kashoggi was half-bald and the guy they sent out to mimic him still had full hair up front.
So, if I were the King of a country and would order a hit-job on a journalist I would have made sure that the people going there were fully qualified. Bringing along a bone-saw is not enough. A fake beard may have been too much.
But then...
If I were REALLY, REALLY clever I would make it look like a botched job by some "rogue operatives" and give that line to DJT to tweet and say it like the parrot he is.
It's the opposite of the opposite of the opposite of what you think to be true. Total confusion. "Mission accomplished!", as Dick Cheney would say...
9
Ransom must be paid for this travesty. I suggest we send them Jared.
38
@RH Make it a two-for. Throw in junior.
5
So, is this why Erdogan is claiming he's going to show us Khashoggi's death "in full nakedness?' Because he was obviously stripped of his own clothing before they began sawing on him.
6
When you're in bed with despotic and middle age kingdoms, don't be surprised if you wake up covered in blood. My hunch is that the Saudis, like the Russians, have dirt on Trump and his family.
20
Isn't this state-sponsored terrorism?
26
It appears so.
10
We need a proper burial for Jamal Khashoggi. This should be a prerequisite for any further engagement with Saudi Arabia under MBS
6
This case would be comical if it didn’t make people forget the millions of yemenis starving to death thanks to this monarchy.
« The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of thousands is a statistic » J. Stalin
15
Trump is the new face of Saudi extremism.
26
The Saudi officials, including his highness the royal crown prince, are liars. This was a premeditated killing.
Time for Turkey to release the audio proof.
13
Besides being evil, this plan and coverup is super dumb. We cannot allow this amoral and bungling government the kind of power it had over us. The fact that we did not hold the Saudis accountable for their part in 9-11 was a huge mistake. Look where it got us now. There should be a huge penalty for Saudi Arabia to pay.
12
Was Khashoggi a Muslim? If so, they desecrated his body according to Muslim law. The Kingdom, which allegedly follows religious laws, violated a very important part of their religion. I suppose murder, lying and giving women virtually no rights are O.K.,but what a bunch of hypocrites!
This president, and past presidents are apparently fine with their misdeeds as long as we have access to their oil, and they continue to buy our murderous weapons.
26
The Swiss cheese of cover ups. "Persuade Mr. Khashoggi to return home," that's why they brought a bone saw. There version of 'Baghdad Bob.'
9
The Saudi new official version is obviously fake: the fact it stated Khashoggi died in a "chokehold" clearly indicates it was specially fabricated to the American audience, since in the USA policemen killing innocent people with chokeholds is common.
What actually happened was that Khashoggi, a political enemy of the Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman, commited the mistake to step in the Saudi consulate by a highly professional team. He was drugged and quartered alive, in seven minutes, and his body parts were probably buried in the Saudi consul's official house in Turkey.
4
So, that's today's headline about Khashoggi. Here's tomorrow's:
1. The butler did it.
2. He was chopped up at the grassy knoll.
3. L.H. Oswald's double was wearing a Khashoggi mask
4. This is all a big hoax by Yemeni intelligence to make Saudis look bad - like that's really hard to do.
23
Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas. The more The Donald scratches the itch, the bigger the infection.
42
Just incredible. A double.
My god, they tried to think this through even more carefully than was apparent when we only knew about the squad of 15 and the bone saw.
They just were not betting on Khadija Jengiz/Hatice Cengiz being there, patiently waiting and then, after too much time had passed, calling Turkish officials.
The Saudis know who knows where the body parts are. Why are they making this weird claim about the body having been rolled up in a rug? They must not want to admit the part about the dismemberment--but why not, at this point? Once you have the double, you have given away how premeditated it all was.
Who exactly are they claiming--at this point, because it will surely change--they gave the body-in-a-rug to?
This MBS regime is immoral and murderous, filled with lies, deception, and violence--and, on top of it, stupidity. Americans do not need their blood-stained money.
And if this is what we get from their investigation, we ought to not need their intelligence, either.
21
@Sandra Campbell –
apparently SOME Americans still need their blood-stained money –e.g., the Bushes, the Trumps.
5
It's like "The Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight', except with bone saws.
18
Will Trump extend his admiration for body slam users to the arab rogue who made the choke hold?
18
Gee, that sounds a little...um...premeditated.
12
How clumsy! Hatice Cengiz was waiting for Kashoggi outside the consulate, obvs. the 'double' wouldn't be able to meet and walk off w/her. This just gets more unbelievable, King Salman should pick another son to take his place. This is a problem for Turkey too, they need to keep good relations w/both US and SA. Trump will do nothing, he is actually quite a coward and I guess that's why he like to talk about 'body slam', punching or shooting others.
335
@Lev
Surveillance shows the body double walking with someone wearing a hoodie. Did they think his fiance would not be challenging this farce? Or was she on their menu, too?
6
@Abby – or is it possible that someone wearing a hoodie was also a double?
The NYT states as fact that Khashoggi was "strangled." The only evidence of that comes from the Saudis who claimed he was accidently killed by a "chokehold".
In fact, the NYT has no idea how Khashoggi was killed. So why does the NYT claim the Saudi version is fact?
Information out of Turkey claims that Khashoggi was drugged, paralyzed and then his body cut up while he was still alive.
174
I totally agree! How can they state as fact how he died? This is the Saudi version... I also found that sentence very strange...
3
@William Marsden
Where does it say it's fact?
note: "narrative", "wide skepticism", "Saudia Arabia has said" It's called reporting information available not verifying it as fact.
"In a narrative that has been met with wide skepticism by Turkish and American officials, Saudi Arabia has said ... he resisted, prompting a fistfight in which one of the men put Mr. Khashoggi in a chokehold and accidentally killed him."
6
@angel98
The lead states it as fact.
MBS is the new face of Saudi extremism. Trump and Kushner will back him with only the lightest of sanctions. He's essential for a US led war with Iran and a 'peace' deal that will codify the subjugation of Palestinians. And the $audis will be very grateful to their friends.
Right now, they're just trying to run out the clock and change the conversation. Did I mention that a crowd of Central American peasants is a massive national security threat? And that California style government is the biggest internal threat to the country?
216
@Michael Tyndall -- You just don't understand. Fifteen Saudi secret agents flew to Turkey for no reason, and just happened to be at the embassy when Khashoggi walked in and started a fight. Sadly, he lost and was killed. Perchance, the 15 Saudis just happened to have a bone saw with them, and cut up the body so that his widow wouldn't have to view the body, then used the body double who just happened to also be along for the ride to make it appear that Khashoggi was killed elsewhere, thus softening the fiancee's grief. That the crown prince talked to Khashoggi minutes before his death by phone really has nothing to do with the investigation, and serves to prove that he wasn't even in the country when the unfortunate death occurred. It really was of no importance to him that Khashoggi just happened to cease living seconds after the call was terminated, and no reason for him to know that fact until two weeks later [although that particular part of the narrative may be amended in the coming minutes].
Really Michael, you should understand how these things work.
2
The way how president Erdogan is manipulating the public, playing a cat and mouse game with the Saudi's and in the meantime neglecting the pain and sorrow he is creating with impartial followers, by constantly insinuating he knows much more about the crime but not explaining why he withholds crucial information, should be condemned by Western leaders.
As a matter of fact, Erdogan is acting as a mafia boss, just as his Arabic counterpart.
35
@robert
"As a matter of fact, Erdogan is acting as a mafia boss, just as his Arabic counterpart."
And his US counterpart as well.
6
@robert –
not to make excuses for Erdogan, who's just another dictator, but it's probable that he'd rather not have the Saudis know the extent of their spying tricks in the Saudi consulate.
5
No he is not. Erdogan is making sure the Saud family gets tangled in its own lies and discredits itself before it benefits from full disclosure of the truth of their crimes.
That said, Erdogan may not be the most liberal leader around but he is far more honorable than any Western leader, who use vulnerable minority segments of their populations as canon fodder for political wrestling matches, misinformation campaigns and coverups for arms sales that fuel illegal wars. That includes Merkel of Germany and Macron of France.
5
I expect the delay and deadline with Turkey releasing audio and video evidence is an extortion attempt on the Saudi government. Maybe free oil to Turkey for 5 years? Anyway, if the Turkish evidence evaporates, you will know that Arabia gave them what they demanded. What a chess game this stuff is!
101
@Will Hogan
That's what Abba's song writers and Tim Rice were trying to express in Chess! This isn't a cold war, but it is surely chilling to follow the story.
1
I am certain his double did not know that Mr. Khashoggi's fiancée was outside and waiting for him.
34
@Shim
I dunno, they had a smaller person wearing a hoodie walk beside this guy all the way to the public toilet where he changed back into his clothing and disposed of Khashoggi's.
4
@Shim If you read the full coverage of this matter, you will read that the double reportedly went out a back door of the consulate. Khashoggi's fiancé was waiting outside the front door. Yes, there are multiple doors and streets accessing the consulate. And the Saudi's in the consulate probably were watching all doors (and the fiancé) with video cameras or guards.
3
It's kind of ironic that at the same time President Erdogan promises to reveal the details of the murder of Kamal Khashoggi "in full nakedness," reports of a Khashoggi "double" leaving the Turkish embassy shortly after his murder wearing Khashoggi's clothes demonstrate that the Saudi cover-up of his murder literally was a cover-up.
50
The Kavanaugh handbook was undermined by a powerful repressive state apparatus that was surveilling another country's embassy. Not your typical abuse scenario that the boys from hell are used to. Places where the victim has no one to provide "corroboration". A room by the stairs. A deserted street. Maybe some secret room in the White House.
12
"The use of a 'body double' suggests a premeditated plan."
Yes, it certainly does, Ollie. So does a 15-man hit squad, serial trial balloons and the need for more time to come up with a better story, one that a credulous president can stick with.
201
If this was not so disturbing and sad, it would be comical.
Another site reported that the double wore a fake beard. Will the Saudis next claim they typically have their people carry a fake gray beards?
Every shred of evidence and circumstance points to a premeditated murder, not an accidental choke hold. Oops, what do we do? Dismember the man and then put on his clothes and prance around for a hour. Weird, sick and guilty.
Of note: Russia regularly kills journalists but they don't seem to get this much attention. The Saudis have brought more attention each time they put out some truly laughable and disgusting lie.
252
The double standard toward Russia should be recognized and corrected.
10
@DM
Yes Russia is also guilty of killing reporters but they make those murders all look plausibly deniable. But killing one of your own citizens, in your own embassy which has surveillance cameras pointed at the entrances, is either pure chutzpah or pure stupidity. And this audio recording must be from a bug in the embassy. Don't the Saudis sweep their consulate buildings for such things?
4
It is just being reported that Prince bin Salman talked with the journalist on the phone in the embassy, just before his death. The Prince wanted him to go back to Saudi Arabia where he would then be killed like so many others, but he refused.
Also it has been reported that our intelligence agencies overheard plans for killing the journalist. They had a responsibility to alert him, why didn’t they. Also Jared Kushner months earlier met with the Prince where they held private meetings til 4am. What was Kushners part in this, and also Trumps.
What financial agreements did Trump have with Saudi Arabia to carry out the war with Iran which they have been pushing for.
Saudi Arabia is the largest financiers of jihadist terrorism in the world. Our soldier have died fighting these jihadists. Why is this acceptable, and why does our military allow this?
396
If true then this is more proof that his highness the royal crown wizard is a liar.
7
@steve
Why does our country allow this? Onne simple answer: sales of weapons. Welcome to the United States of America, Inc.
6
@steve Mr. Kushner met with the Prince about 1 week before the Prince arrested and jailed several Saudi officials at the Ritz Carlton. Coincidence?
4
A carefully orchestrated cold-blooded execution by the Saudi Arabian monarchy mafia of a journalist who dared to tell the world about Saudi Arabian governmental rot and corruption.
The initial reaction of America's Embarrassment-In-Chief: "The king firmly denied any knowledge of it. He didn't really know, maybe, I don't want to get into his mind but it sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers, who knows?”
Pressed on whether Trump believed King Salman’s denials, Trump blathered:
“All I can do is report what he told me. He told me in a very firm way that they had no knowledge of it. He said it very strongly. His denial to me could not have been stronger, that he had no knowledge. It sounded like he and also the crown prince [Mohammed bin Salman] had no knowledge.”
-----
And Secretary of State Mike Pompeo's reaction ?
Smiles, handshakes, genuflection and bonhomie with Saudi Arabian crime bosses.
Nobody sinks to the occasion like this disgraceful, unAmerican Trump Administration.
Vote for adults on November 6, 2018, not amoral Republican sociopaths who are happy to aid and abet the world's most brutal dictatorships and global polluters.
567
@Socrates
Well at least Trump is consistent. He defended Putin and Kim un Jong as well. He Loves those autocrats.
10
@Socrates
Unfortunately, nearly all American presidents have been great buddies with the Saudis -- including BHO, but yes, Trump needs to be stopped --- and if Boeing doesn't meet its predictions (they are the winners if no sanction is applied) too bad for the so-called investors -- really gamblers. I am sick of the entire system.
(Can a politician in fact be an adult??!!) -- but yes indeed we need to balance the power....
3
@Socrates BTW "very strong denial" is one of trump's tells for telling a falsehood.
1
These people are criminal in the worst way. The US must halt all cooperating with them at once. What MbS has been doing needs to be revealed to the public and the US must in no uncertain terms tell the Saudis we will never deal with him so long as he's in power.
Cut him off. Now.
--
'Things Trump Did While You Weren’t Looking' https://wp.me/p2KJ3H-2ZW
166
@Rima Regas Wishful thinking. They are all criminals.
25
@Chatelet
On our side and theirs.
@Rima Regas
With the added news of Saudi's orchestrating a "body double" strolling around Istanbul wearing Khashoggi's clothes, it PROVES that the Saudis were trying to blame Turkey for Khashoggi's disappearance.
No wonder Erdogan is outraged. Besides Khashoggi being a personal friend, MBS was setting Erdogan up for the crime.
6