Is an Astrology certification any less scientific than that of a financial planner?
I do not ask this question in support of Astrology, but to point in out how many aspects of life we trust arcane, non-objective snake oil.
23
People's beliefs are important to their lives. Check in with any Psychiatrist or Psychotherapist who practices Cognitive Behavior Therapy and you will discover that what people believe about themselves is the root cause of depression, particularly suicidal hopelessness. Considering the current level of interest in astrology and the genuine importance of beliefs, it might be of value to ask for articles to be written by bonafide experts, for example, many psychotherapists use astrology most famously, Carl Jung. Also, Wall Street has more than a few highly successful traders who use astrology about which there is a great deal of published documentation that some might consider evidence. Biodynamic farmers have been using astrology for 100 years to grow toxin-free crops. Setting aside the silly newspaper horoscopes, nature functions on cyclical time, the bell curve is a famous example of how there are patterns that can be traced for physical geology and psychological behavior. Why should the rhythm and cycles of an individual's life not also follow a traceable pattern?
18
I’m a science realist and a huge Carl Sagan fan. But my best friend, a locally renowned New England herbalist who passed away from cancer 18 years ago, married a professional astrologer who’s also been one of my closest friends to this day. He’s often eerily right more often than not but some times he’s just wrong.
I have a hard time accepting that planets and the sun and moon actually affect people but what I really view as astrology’s great strength is as an ancient and continuing system of human psychological understanding; a sort of psychoanalysis that works pretty well. I am every bit a Capricorn sun with Scorpio rising and a Cancer moon. It accurately describes my motivations, spirit, and approaches to the outer world. I don’t think it’s the space objects so much as just good old psychoanalysis.
Plus, I’m comfortable knowing not everything can be scientifically explained yet. And it certainly beats the racist, sexist, bloodthirsty Abrahamic mythologies currently embraced by much of the world and that are destroying the planet. Why do we as a society accomodate belief in a god but not astrology? Both can seem ridiculous from an educated point of view but at least well-practiced astrology embraces a mathematical rigor totally lacking in religion.
People need to face the cognitive dissonance that astrology is no more ridiculous, actually less so in my opinion, than believing an obsessively homophobic male god actively manages our lives, sexuality, and world.
48
All pieces like this reinforce is that closed-minded certainty looks the same whether it's based on religious doctrine, woo, OR science. The problem is the arrogance and ego of dogmatic certainty.
8
I'll admit this is only anecdote, however, I'm the father of twins born only a couple of minutes apart. These 2 of my kids are vastly different people: interests, creativity, studiousness, personalities. Their mum is also a twin and she's quite different from her twin brother. These are just a couple of examples as to why I don't accept astrology, other than the basic premise.
Other things I wonder about: they were born by emergency cesarean at 32 weeks, why should when they come out matter that much? They were conceived over a year before that (IVF and frozen for a couple of months) does that influence things? It's all a bit arbitrary.
9
This is really quite good news.
What they are studying and calculating, of course, is unadulterated hogwash. But it occupies them better than sudoku; it keeps them busy and out of the hair of people who have real lives. While they are dithering about this nonsense, they are not hatching conspiracy theories, railing about Hillary's e-mails or Obama's birthplace, or shooting methamphetamine.
The astrology industry, therefore, can be compared to the naturopathy industry: when naturopaths' victims can obsess about the nonsense, imaginary test results, and mysterious patent medicines they are being sold, they are not cluttering up doctors' offices who are seeing patients with real problems. This is a social good.
3
Er, false equivalence. My bad.
Many other disciplines are hard to comprehend but fake e.g. postmodernism, alchemy, homeopathy, religion (if one is a priest/rabbi/imam) etc. All of these have developed a complicated literature but are completely self-referential and hence bear no resemblance to reality. Alan Sokal's book "Fashionable Nonsense" lays it all out in beautiful detail.
I am glad to see that the New York Times is calling out unscientific nonsense for what it is both in this article and the recent one "Hoaxers Slip Breastaurants and Dog-Park Sex Into Journals" about the three hoaxers who got 7 publications into top Social Science journals.
5
But, you should know the answers in advance, right? Or is that just for seers and necromancers? We'll just have to wait and see what the future holds, I guess.
No wait. Develop a few myths over a number of cultures and several millennia. Cool. Now, gaze at the random scattering of stars which are positioned billions of miles from each other in 4 dimensions (they are no longer where we see them, right?).
Now, pick out patterns that look vaguely like something in one of those many myths I mentioned. (Still with me?) Based on the positions of these images at a point in time, and use these positions to predict the personalities and lives of randomly selected (somewhat gullible--so selection is not entirely random) creatures created by their DNA molecules to ensure the molecules' survival. Right. Makes sense to me.
4
Awaiting Andromeda
Everlasting darkness unforgiving
Denies that there are stars that we see through:
We only see the faces of the living
And those of whom the briefest loss is true.
The stars we see are not yet deathly red
For almost all are close and shine plain sight,
In forms and clusters that the ancients read
So what we see is touched by sparks of light.
The Way will turn its vast eternal wheel
As eons pass and star lights fail and dim
And we in stardust through our substance feel
Andromeda drawn broken to the rim.
Will we like her be rescued from the void
When the obliviating dragon is destroyed?
6
I wonder how many of the denials commenters (I won't dignify their comments with the venerable philosophical term, "Skeptic") are aware of the very first (and only!) research study carried out by CSICOP (yes, committee for the "scientific" investigation of claims of the paranormal).
They decided the easiest area of pseudoscience to debunk would be astrology.
They broadcasted their intent far and wide.
When, to their horror, the study came out positive, they buried it as deeply as they could, and have since resorted to the kind of uninformed, illogical, poorly "reasoned" comments of the denialists here in the comments.
14
One has to ask the question as to whether the "basis" astrology has in math is just so people can feel like the process is legitimate. The fact that this is something that people study and test for only proves that profiting off of the intangible and unproven is an easy task. You can still make complicated calculations and be completely gullible.
6
@H. That is why most engineers I have met believe in intelligent design :-)
1
Anybody can be right 50% of the time.
4
People's unwavering belief in science is just as naive as people's unwavering belief in religious fundamentalism. Some who would never believe in God or the infallibility of the pope will happily accept the scientists and doctors as infallible.
Peruse the recent NY Times articles on top doctors at esteemed centers such as Memorial Sloan Kettering who manipulated the results of their research to cast certain drugs in a favorable light. By coincidence, these drugs were from pharmaceutical companies that were awarding grants and paying these physicians big money.
What can be more worthy of derision than victimizing people who are already ill? Astrology, really?
Are some cancer treatments really based on magical thinking and charlatanism disguised as science? How will we ever know? How can we ever tease it apart?
Most scientists are people of integrity, and subjects like climate change reflect overwhelming evidence that our environment is being rapidly degraded, but my point is that elevating everything scientists say to the same level of uncritical acceptance is also a mistake.
Frankly, if it were up to me, I wouldn't bother launching an attack on astrology when it appears there are much bigger fish to fry.
19
The point you’re making is that there are “other ways of knowing”. There is knowledge, and then there’s astrology. This is a false dichotomy of the first order.
1
@John Kemner
John, do you have any idea what "other ways of knowing" means?
I suggest you look up the work of Arthur Zajonc, an international renowned nuclear physicist.
3
Not too sure about astrology in general, but I will certainly “thank my lucky stars” if the blue wave comes through in November.
10
Hard? Try necromancy and alchemy! Raising the dead and transmogrifying cucumbers into gold is even more difficult!
16
What a sad waste of human time and energy. What a sad commentary on the state of education today.
7
Being a fraud and running a scam can be hard too.
4
There's an astrologist born every minute, I guess.
9
It really doesn't matter if it's scientific "fact." You tell me you're a Scorpio sun with Sagittarius in five houses, I'm going to expect a brutal truth teller with a fiery temper that blows over quickly. You're Aries with Leo rising? Your ego walks in the room before you do... it's all about you. A Capricorn sun, moon and in Jupiter? You will eventually run the world or die trying. I don't care who believes what, but the NSA should have insight like that, lol. Regardless, it's fun. So, whatever.
17
@Tellin' it You can expect whatever you want - it has no basis in or connection to reality. The NSA should NOT have "insight" like that, which isn't insight at all. As for fun, that's a matter of taste, of course.
3
There is no shred of evidence in favor of astrology, period. It may have been acceptable at some point in history, when we didn't know better and people were desperate to accept pretty much any bogus answer to questions about universe and our place in it.
Science has moved away since then and is a much more mature enterprise. There are lots of still unanswered questions out there, but reverting to superstition won't take you anywhere - no matter how hard you're trying to wrap it in supposedly scientific language.
Thank you for calling it what it is - a fake thing.
9
Astology is a system. A system to organize human character traits, experiences, and subconscious. I find it exceptionally useful in my life. I'm happy to see the Times writing articles about astrology lately. Keep digging and learning and you may discover its joys, and that being "fake" is something you can say about just about any spirituality or religion.
21
@Matt R - The "system" of astrology isn't supported by any empirical evidence so the conclusions astrology purports to intuit are totally baseless. This is the difference between the pseudoscience astrology and religions. Religions seek to explain the unknowable while astrology makes unsubstantiated predictions about observable events (e.g. people's personalities).
5
@Matt R
What good is a "system" that has no validity?
9
@Peter Actually I don't participate in predictive astology, but I realize that for many it is part of the joy. I use it to help me understand personality types and behaviors. The mathematical parts of the system are combined with intuition and observation to create a holistic approach to understanding humanity. And by the way, Christianity has thousands of unfulfilled prophecies and errant predictions, and it is still a useful system for many to live by if they follow its best intents!
10
In writing my historical novels set in 4th-century Babylonia, I decided to have my heroine consults an astrologer, who also had to be an expert astronomer who could track and predict the motions of the planets. I knew the traits and future I planned for her to have, so I wanted to create a natal astrology chart that would accurately predict these.
I thought it would be easy since I could choose any birth date that worked. But the more I "studied" astrology, the more effort I realized this would take. I eventually did come up with an "accurate" chart for my fictional heroine, but I came away with great respect for the professional astrologer.
I'm not saying I "believe" in astrology since the underlying hypothesis, that the position of the heavens at the moment of our birth can determine our future, has never been proven--or even tested. But it is a field that requires expert knowledge of rigorous calculations.
15
@Maggie Rigorous knowledge of UTTERLY ARBITRARY calculations. It's not just that the idea has never been proven, or tested - after all, I can invent 10 arbitrary systems right now, tonight, that have never been proven or tested. The relevant question is, is there enough of a reason to even wonder whether any of this should be true? Is there even a shred of a plausible mechanism to make this a hypothesis that is worth our time? Or does the notion fly in the face of entire fields of knowledge, fields full of relevant calculations that make testable predictions, and which have been tested in innumerable ways?
3
It's astonishing how ready people are to place judgement on things they haven't examined thoroughly. The author projects her own unexamined bias throughout the article. Annoying but what you will get with the dominant media which mainly upholds cultural convention and where the truth is so narrowly defined that the untruth of the big picture is completely invisible.
If one looks at the scientific method objectively it becomes obvious that only certain kinds of truth are selected for. The vast richness of reality cannot be apprehended through a convenient method that relies on highly limiting either/or truths. What about the both/and and the gestalt truths? We ignore these at our cultural peril. Logic and reason are tyrannical and myopic lenses for reality.
I studied astrology for three years, fascinated but with deep skepticism. When finally I could no longer avoid the fact that the system was working I fell into a feverish state for nearly a week, what I understood the world to be burned out of my mind. My new insight debunked the conventional western view as the cultural bias it is, not the truth people believe it to be.
Not addressed here is science taking the place of religion now, as a belief system, and worshiped far past its value to the gestalt of the planet. Also missing is a reference to the many scientific studies that reveal astrology to be a valid source of truth. Our author did not investigate these, perhaps because they did not support her premise.
16
@Kate - How was the system "working?" Your subjective experience doesn't mean that planetary motion is a better predictor of human personality than the movements of New York's subway trains. If astrology worked, there would be studies and data to support its tenets. Absent any corroborating evidence, it's just a system of wishful thinking and a bogus way to claim insight into what is really a chaotic, unpredictable world.
6
@Kate
"Also missing is a reference to the many scientific studies that reveal astrology to be a valid source of truth."
Assuming that there are, in fact, such studies, why don't you cite them?
8
@Kate Perhaps you could provide references to the "many scientific studies that reveal astrology to be a valid source of truth." Or to any scientific studies that reveal "sources of truth". Or, failing that, perhaps you could tell us what you think science is. Don't forget observation, experimentation and reproducibility in your definition.
3
My mum was a witch. Even she, though she always voted democratic, thought astrology was baloney. She was more into entrails, tea leaves, and of course her Cards. The cards never failed her except that one time when they told her to marry my father. When she eventually died, we put her stuffed owl and a signed* copy of Crowley’s The Book of Lies in the coffin beside her. Those and the half bottle of scotch that she’d told us she was going to need on her journey. The house is very quiet since she left. But sometimes I see one of her cats hanging around, and I wonder if she’s not back spying on me.
*I don't know if it actually was the Master's signature, but she always said it was and for all my life I never did catch her out in a lie of any real consequence.
4
Friend here in Israel worked her way thru the university by writing astrology columns for one of the leading daily newspapers. She was very creative but one day admitted she had trouble finding the north star. She wrote under an assumed name and people were happy as it was published in the newspaper.
2
The title of this article is offensive. Just because something is not evidence based or validated by science doesn't mean it is fake. There are many ways to get to the truth. For example, you can get to an answer through teachers, books, family, friends, the internet, even the New York Times. I can tell you through experience that there are astrologers and other clairvoyants in this world that our highly skilled at seeing what's to come. How do they do it? I don't know, but they can do it!
17
@Mark - If astrology or clairvoyants really worked, there would be studies and data. You claim that astrology gets at the truth. I would ask, what truth? How do you measure it? If all you have are subjective anecdotes, then what you're talking about is pseudoscientific wishful thinking. Better to truly improve oneself instead of playing ostrich with a false sense of insight.
5
@Mark Nope. It's fake. Everybody knows that. Well... almost everybody.
1
Natal astrology only became popular when people started tracking birth times. There's so much more to it! For millennia, astrologers noted the placements of the planets and the corresponding phenomena occurring at the same time. John Dee was Queen Elizabeth's astrologer, and the electional chart of her coronation is truly interesting.
Saturn and Jupiter describe a predictable relationship between the American election cycle and presidential assassination attempts. Every twenty years, you can set your clock by this. So, people said, "why was there no assassination attempt on Bush?" Easy, said the astrologers. He wasn't elected.
8
@Elizabeth Powell Except it took science to show astrologers there were many more planets, but that doesn't matter since only one planet affects us and that is our moon the rest are too far away to affect the earth.
Acupunture and Chinese medicine was once considered "fake" by Western rational thinkers .
29
@tony Yes, and guess what? They still are!
4
Astrology predates Babylonian times as it is mentioned in the teachings of India dating back at least 8,000 years. Furthermore most of the planets, as presented by modern astrologers, are calculated incorrectly. The position of the planets in a chart should match the "astronomical" positions of the planets as, for instance, NASA would list them. Such a correction would make a difference in how astrology is perceived. For those who think it's just nonsense talk to a cop or an ER nurse around the time of the Full Moon.
8
The problem is that most people think astrology is what they read in the newspaper horoscope. And then there are the "rational" thinkers who reject anything so silly as the idea that objects at a great distance could be influencing their actions or indeed form their very personalities and color their relationships. Anyone trained in critical thinking could be forgiven for thinking that this is ridiculous because it doesn't make much sense. Right?
Well, I challenge anyone who rejects astrology and thinks it is nonsense to do some further study. Go and get your chart done by a real astrologer. It just might blow your mind.
I have lived with a a woman who has been studying this discipline for nearly 50 years. I was a skeptic when I met her, but I can tell you that the personal insights she has come up with over the years are truly astonishing. Much respect to anyone who is seriously involved with this fascinating and ancient art.
23
@Peter Astrology is no different than guessing.
2
A question for the would-be knowledgeable people. Is one connected to one's chart by the time when one was born or are you connected to when you should have been born? Let me clarify. By rights I should have been born in October, given the normal nine-month gestation time for humans. However, the Doctor at the time recommended an early Caesarian for my mother, thus I was actually born approximately a month early.
In the general sense, astrologically speaking, my temperament is far more the balanced scales of Libra, than of where I landed in Virgo. Either way it probably doesn't mean a darn thing, but it has been an item of curiosity, nonetheless.
4
@Patrick use your birth time. Your natal chart may have a Virgo Sun, but a horoscope has many moving parts. No doubt there is a bit of Libra in your horoscope.
3
Your chart's calculated for the time of the first independent breath.
3
Astrology is math & science and so not fake.
Some people interprets it incorrectly but it's not fake.
6
There's difficult nonsense, and there's easy nonsense. Guess what they both have in common.
20
@gemli
Gemli, when you show that you're capable of providing a definition of "physical," you'll be qualified to comment on this.
Try describing a stone without using conceptual or perceptual qualia.
It can't be done but you won't understand why unless you try.
Then you'll understand what physicist Werner Heisenberg meant when he said, "It is not nature that scientists study but nature's response to our questions."
As an astrologer of now 30+ years experience who just happened to be part of the group that created the ISAR Certification, I can attest to the fact that doing quality astrology is extremely hard, not to mention occasionally humbling.
I take strong exception to any suggestion that astrology is fake - a meme that the The Times has been repeating as of late, and that I argue represents a pernicious materialistic bias that does real world harm to honest practitioners lives.
Materialism is fabulous for building flat screen televisions, nuclear weapons, and I-phones, But IHMO it has not demonstrated itself particularly well suited to exploring either the realm of meaning or the realm of the individual or collective psyche. And it's that realm of the psyche, both individual and collective, that astrology most eloquently describes.
I was cited in 2015 as one of the most influential commentors at The Times - and what nobody learned in that write up was that I am doing astrology much of the time that I am here, but just not using astrological jargon. After 30 years, I don't need to use it - I can translate every planet, sign, and aspect into non-astrological language on the fly - but the astrology is always in the back of my mind, shaping the larger political, economic, or cultural landscape that I am painting, a landscape that extends years, if not decades, into the future.
If you recommended my posts over the years, you've been endorsing my astrology - and not known it.
45
@Matthew Carnicelli
Hey Matthew - I've not only recommended many of your posts, I've admired, many times, your courage in writing such boldly spiritual commentary for the generally metaphysically challenged commentariat of the Times.
Please keep at it! You're writing great stuff.
10
@Matthew Carnicelli
Rick Tarnas, author of the great history Passion of the Western Mind (on many a syllabus as the time), later revealed how the structure of that book was deeply informed by his understanding of astrological cycles.
6
In an attempt to see if it was "for real" I studied Astrology part time for a couple of years in the late 70's at a small private Astrology school in Hempstead, Long Island that actually earned you college credits. The final exam took 12 to 14 hours the first day and about 10 hours the second. No calculators, all hand done math, lots of logarithm tables. Interpretation is part science and part art, most people don't get that. I have friends who can't believe I give credence ( not blind belief) to astrology but not things like ghosts and UFOs. Those things aren't even in the same room.
9
For those who refuse to consider the possibility that astrology could have some validity, what if I told you that a child whose mother contracts influenza during the second trimester has an increased risk of mental illness and schizophrenia? Or that an infant who suffers trauma or serious infection shortly after birth has an increased risk of autism? The developing brain is plastic---successful species rely upon variation within the species and the ability for individual members of the species to change in response to their environment. This plasticity and variability makes it more likely that at least some members of the species will survive environmental cataclysms--like ice ages and even a hard northern European winter. Who is to say that the human genome does not contain genes that are turned on or off depending upon the hours of daylight when a child is born or the angle of the sun or even the presence of a recurring comet nearby that tends to spawn meteorites that affect the earth's weather? Or with the availability (or lack of availability) of certain foods at certain times of year? Or changes in the mother's natural Vit. D production at certain times of the year? There are so many seasonal variations in the world in which we live, it would make sense that a successful species would find a way to adapt to these changes. The stars in the sky may affect our destinies--or they may be markers for some other cyclical change. More often then note, I can guess star signs.
11
I have no investment in astrology, but I did know one man who had an uncanny ability to "guess" what a person's sign was based on what he knew of their personality. He was right way more times than the odds would determine. Just lucky? I have no idea, but it certainly was not prior knowledge.
10
My hairdresser is an astrologer in addition to being a pretty good colorist. She is always asking me questions and giving free interpretations based on where my moon or house or rising sun are located at the moment. I get a headache just listening to her babble on and on about stuff that makes my head spin.
The opening paragraph of this article reminded me of the 1969 tune by the 5th Dimension, "Age of Aquarius". All I hear are the names of various planets residing in a house or a moon rising or something else that sounds bizarre to me.
But I believe in this stuff. For some add reason, it works for me and makes total sense, even if I have no clue or desire to know how an astrologer comes up with their reasoning or justifications.
I keep thinking about Nancy Reagan and her asking an astrologer for advise when it came to Ronnie and his important decisions regarding the country. Not sure if I would ever go that far in believing or relying on astrology. What I do know is that there are now electronic, hand held devices in which one can input the chart data and get an accurate and precise reading. The real key is being able to interpret correctly and accurately what the findings are.
Pretty cool stuff even if I don't know or care who or what is in my house or which house for that matter.
4
at least this isn't in the science section...
18
@j s Ironic given that astrology is the "mother" of all science.
4
@Lcall
It would be ironic if it were true.
Only in America!
4
@Ronald Weinstein
No, not true by a long shot.
It’s had some part of European culture for many centuries. I came across all kinds of astrology practitioners, bookstores, and symbolism in my visits to the UK. Stonehenge was built with astronomical precision and mostly likely rooted in astrology.
The entire Chinese culture is rooted in Chinese astrology which is actively practiced in every day lives TODAY. Chinese leadership observes it. Every new year celebration is astrological in meaning. Dates, business openings, and births are often planned according to astrology. When I went to China, one host of a banquet asked me my birth year and was delighted to learn that like him, I am a Rabbit. He then proceeded to warn me that as a rabbit, I should avoid the rabbit being served at the buffet because it could bring bad luck. “Do what I do”, he said, “and choose the shrimp instead” which I did. Yum.
Try traveling a bit with open eyes and mind before assuming America is the center of everything, especially philosophies that go back to the beginnings of civilization.
14
Becoming an expert pickpocket, safecracker or cat burglar is probably hard, too. What's your point?
26
When seeing this article (thank you Ms. Beusman), and after reading the comments for Amanda Hess’s great video piece <https://nyti.ms/2MRR0NR>, I was anxious to see how many commenters here would blame astrology for Trump (one and counting). I find such denunciations more than a bit hysterical.
They remind me of Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt’s Atlantic article (and now a book), “The Coddling of the American Mind.” In this article, the authors discuss how some young people are being taught to think in psychologically unhealthy ways, one example being a tendency to catastrophize about relatively innocuous things. This means taking something that one views as a potential threat, like expressions of unintentional racism, and quickly conceptualizing it as something much worse, i.e. actual violence.
This is precisely what many otherwise smart people are doing when they hear the word astrology, much less see an article about it in the New York Times (gasp!). I challenge these people to have their birth charts cast by a seasoned professional and see if they walk away with the same attitude. I promise, it won’t make you vote for Trump.
8
@Chad Eller
I suspect, Chad, you might not realize how much you have in common with these scientists.
One, a nuclear physicist, in regard to evidence for psi, initially said he was someone who believed in evidence, but when offered to look at successful experiments in telepathy, replied, "Well, there are some things we simply know aren't true, and therefore, we don't need to look a the evidence.
Another, a chemist, when asked by the president of the Institute of Noetic Sciences, what he thought of remote viewing, replied, "I wouldn't believe it even if it were true."
1
@don salmon
I'm not sure I understand your comment (and I don't know what "psi" is). I was just pointing out a theme among the commenters who, like your example scientists, dismiss astrology out of hand without bothering to understand what it is — and then write hair-on-fire comments as if astrology were going to end civilization as we know it. I see a profound irony in this.
There is an obvious understanding of astrology’s enduring value staring everyone in the face, which only requires people to look beyond their own noses. Anyone who scratches the surface of astrology and looks at its historical context, sees how profoundly it has shaped human thinking up to the present day — linguistically, culturally, politically, psychologically.
I acknowledge that the field is rife with charlatans and fraudsters, and that it attracts many un-serious people. And like with other spiritual practices like meditation, there are psychological pitfalls to studying it (caused partly by its marginal status). However, when you strip away the mystical baggage there is much information, and even wisdom, in astrology, and I am glad that there are people taking the time to study it.
3
It's insane to judge everything in human experience with the yardstick of something called as 'Science'. Science is nothing but systematic placement of our quantifiable experiences and predictions, based on accepted common sense logic. Human experience is beyond logic. Human emotions, thoughts, expressions, dreams, aspirations are not bound by any Science. Please stop the misuse of the term Science. You are insulting both, the Science and the great scientists as well as vast human experiences and the seers who received the best of them.
8
@Toonyorker
No, science isn't what you say it is. It is a self-correcting explanation of reality based on empiricism.
If astrology were self-correcting, it would have ceased to exist long ago.
31
Toonyorker,
And yet, it is these “seekers” that wrap themselves in scientific garb to convince the public of their merits...
8
@DJ
Toonyorker was stating in colloquial language the same thing Werner Heisenberg intended when he said that "What science studies is not Nature itself but nature's response to our questioning."
If the questions we ask are quantitative, we will only receive quantitative answers. Since our experience is qualitative, we miss more than we get as long as we rely solely on measurement. This is what Stephen Hawking was referring to when he asked, "What is it that puts fire into our equations?"
1
This article would have been more interesting if it discussed the connection between between astrology and the development of modern science. To be concise: (1) if there was not a requirement for better astrological tables, then Tycho Brahe would not have been commissioned to make precise astronomical observations: (2) Kepler would not have been able to use Brahe's precise observations to derive his mathematical models describing planetary motion; (3) Newton would not have been able to use Kepler's work to develop his law of gravitation.
29
@RAC
And yet all of those discoveries could have been made without the existence of astrology.
2
I'm actually a fan of the ideal of astrology, but probably not in the way it is usually portrayed.
The simple fact is, that all life on earth developed under the two relatively stable physical forces of the sun and the moon, the engines of all life.
It stands to reason that our nature, interests, environment and destiny reflect that basic fact.
Indeed, the sun and moon appear to be the same size in the sky, and gravitational inertia is exactly equal to the other kind (um, I forget, the inertia outside of gravity).
We are 'tuned' to see the world as we must.
What troubles me are the con artists who use astrology to dupe "clients" into payments for lifting curses and so on. Every palm reader that sells their "powers" is a crook, and their activities should be recognized as a crime.
But as for F=MA, that "law of motion" says more about our perceptual capacity, then it does about the universe.
3
The illustration is fun, but one of the planets made me think of a sausage, egg, and cheese sandwich. I should go to lunch.
12
The shame (or sham) of astrology is the beliefs that it creates, or at least reinforces, in those who are seeking “answers” or direction about many things in their lives. To believe in a connection between circumstantial details of celestial space and time and a specific individual’s qualities and attributes is to surrender to a pre-determined destiny for that individual, as that putative connection (if you believe in it) is there whether it is “interpreted” or not. Insisting that someone should adhere to what the connection supposedly means imposes an unjustified and artificial limit on the choices that one can make in life, which are the true determinants of how that life proceeds.
12
Sometimes people who believe in astrology ask when is my birthday or what is my sign. What do they want this information for?
@J Lee
To me astrology is more psychology than prediction. It can give people a feel for what kind of person you are. True or not it’s what they’re doing, just trying to get to know you better.
Are you not a native? Astrology is as Californian as the beach!
I've never studied astrology, yet I'm willing to bet that I can paint an accurate profile of just about anyone. I'll even do it for you, dear reader. Here goes:
1. You have a great need for other people to like and admire you.
2. You have a tendency to be critical of yourself.
3. You have a great deal of unused capacity which you have not turned to your advantage.
4. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them.
5. Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside.
6. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing.
7. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations.
8. You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof.
9. You have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others.
10. At times you are extroverted, affable, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved.
11. Some of your aspirations tend to be pretty unrealistic.
12. Security is one of your major goals in life.
Pretty accurate, eh? It's not astrology; it's the "Barnum effect" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect#Early_research
Watch it in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haP7Ys9ocTk
Oh, and your star sign is almost certainly wrong: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12207811
So, there's that...
58
@Mark B
Not even close!
1
@Mark B Sorry, but your criticism of astrology was disqualified by your opening statement, "I've never studied astrology."
Go study it for a few years and get back to us.
21
@Alice I haven't "studied" alchemy or witchcraft or Scientology for several years either. And yet...
7
“It is not for morons,” she said. But it's based on nonsense which therefore makes it moronic. The idea of taking a test on made up science is so silly I don't know where to begin. One thing is for sure no matter how much of Astrology you know you still don't know anything about anyone.
It a world of chaos that makes no sense Astrology is the placebo for many. Most astrologers these days act as pseudo psychologists anyway.
25
@Realist Identical to a degree in religion, no?
4
@cc1038 well religion is the belief and study of invisible being from outer space, so yea no difference there.
If you judge the discipline of Astrology by the horoscope in a New Age magazine, then yes...it's all fake fun and games. However, there is a scientific basis for a great deal of Astrology, because it permits the study of the unconscious.
Most people are similarly amused by the reading of a Tarot deck or the messages displayed by a Ouija board. But all of these have been, and are, used to study the unconscious mind. For example, a Tarot reading session and a Psychoanalytical session share a lot in common, because they both explore the unconscious mind-set of an individual.
Tarot is just an ancient form that does many of the same things. And it can be shown - using the scientific method - that the Ouija board does the same thing. That is, it accurately reports the collective unconscious of the participants using the something called the 'ideometer effect'. The proof comes when you blindfold the participants, because then the Ouija board no longer works.
According to this article: "It’s the next part — the interpretation of those results — that plunges astrologers into the realm of what they might call inference or intuition, and what nonbelievers might call memorized random associations."
There it is - the study of inference and intuition, and memorized random associations - that is the study of the unconscious, using Astrology.
16
@W in Minneapolis
In my misguided youth, many years ago, an acquaintance and I used a ouija board, and both of us were blindfolded. The message was right on: my husband was a skeptic and had to leave the room. It used his initials. We stopped using it then and there. But why was he a skeptic when the ouija board (long before we knew each other) gave him my initials when it was asked who he would marry, and not those of his current fiancee?
2
There was an article today about Trump, noting that to him and his followers, facts don't matter.
Leave aside astrology for a moment, and look at a closely related field - the scientific investigation of parapsychological phenomena.
Even stalwart debunkers (they don't deserve the hoary label "skeptic") like Ray Hyman admit there were perfectly well conducted experiments in the late 1800s providing solid evidence for psi that have never been disproven.
Yes, Daryl Bem's experiment was reported on in this paper - in accurately - and the Times readers probably think that was that.
Well, in 2016, one of the most conservative scientific organizations in the US published "Transcendent Mind," by a mathematician-psychologist and long-time psychology researcher, which simply takes for granted that (a) consciousness, no insentient matter, is the fundamental substance of the universe; and (b) psi phenomena have been irrefutably proven.
Do facts matter?
Ask Richard Dawkins. After asserting that telepathy has been scientifically disproven, he was asked if he had ever looked at any studies. he tried to slink out of the room as fast as possible.
Same with Jerry Coyne and same with Daniel Dennett.
Carl Sagan initially made the same ignorant assertion, but actually changed his mind after looking at the research.
As several commenters have already noted, if you haven't studied the research, and think facts are important, take your time to do some study.
17
People say that the old myths have broken down and all we're left with are the 'facts" that scientists have told us, focusing particularly on the fact that "we" are just a speck of life on a tiny planet in a vast, dead cosmos.
But fundamentalists of all stripes feel exactly the same way about their view - that it's not a "story" at all but simply a recounting of "facts".
Considering that luminaries such as Max Planck and Sir Arthur Eddington have said pretty much the same thing about the physicalist view underlying so much of modern science, one wonders if it will take another century for us to recognize that our current scientistic myth is just that, a myth - one that is infinitely more irrational than any religious myth.
In fact, no matter how irrational our religious myths are, they are at least hinting something it is possible to experience.
But our contemporary scientists cannot even define the word "physical" - which is supposed to be something (they have no idea what) that is the basis of our entire universe.
As the great physicist Wolfgang Pauli might have said, the modern scientific myth "is not even wrong."
2
@don salmon
What silliness. First of all, there is no possible "solid evidence of psi" from a claim about an experiment from the 1800s. If the experiment worked then, do it today with some witnesses and document it. You don't get to reject the entire weight of science because of something that somebody claims that the saw or did in 1850.
Please tell us what supposedly conservative organization published "The Transcendent Mind", and why you think the fact that someone published a book, by an author that you didn't even name, is supposed to persuade anyone, of anything. Oh, I see, he's a "long-time psychology researcher." That settles it, I guess. (Um, not. Are you joking?)
Feel free to show us where Dennett, Coyne and Sagan said that they "changed their mind" about telepathy and other such muffinheaded nonsense. I won't hold my breath.
19
@don salmon -- Isaac Newton reportedly took flack from Edmund Halley for his interest in the astrology. Newton supposedly replied, “Sir Halley, I have studied the matter, you have not!
7
Took the words right out of my mouth, Mr. Beanbag. Kudos to the NYT for presenting readers with an informed perspective on a much-maligned, misunderstood subject. Astrology is an astonishingly powerful, accurate tool for understanding why we are the way we are, and why things happen when they do. It is much more complex than most people imagine.
17
So. The astrologer looks up at the night sky and sees a constellation of the zodiac. What they are seeing is rather a fiction. It is flat projection of something - the group of stars - that is three dimensional and with relationships between stars many many many millions of light years apart. If one was sitting near or in the cluster of the constellation's stars, one would not see what we do on earth. The constellation is a fiction of how we view the universe from earth. It has no relation to the stars' real relationships to each other.
33
@Russian Princess What you say might be true, but it is irrelevant to astrology. Most of astrology is reading the position of the planets in relationship to each other, the sun and the Earth. The stars are points of reference to determine the relative positions.
8
@Talman Miller So what? The position of the planets at the time of birth has about as much relevance to the future personality of a child as the position of the stars - none. There is no evidence to the contrary, and no hypothetical mechanism for such specific effects that isn't laughable.
2
@Mike Kaplan
Cite courses, time involved in study, etc.
You believe in science, right?
(note - all above comments are rhetorical - to quote you, "I won't hold my breath")
1
It seems that it's better to take interest in astrology than in the TV reality shows. In astrology you deal with an ancient science--which we can consider as a form of art today. If astrology helps people to better connect with themselves, allows to ponder over of the mysteries of the broad sky that stretches above, to contemplate over the grandness of the cosmos and human place within it (and to contemplate over one's life rather than the lives of Hollywood starts) and in the process learn some astronomy and have fun--than astrology seems to be a nice option for a hobby. Go astrology!!
27
Theology is hard but is also fake. No theo; no logia.
50
In a country where half the people believe in both ghosts and UFOs, and despite evidence actually elected Trump, anything is possible.
59
@PT There was actually a video of a UFO published by the NYT some months ago. Check it out. It was taken by US pilots.
3
@pag
All a UFO is, by definition, is an "unidentified flying object." What's your point?
3
"Even if it's fake" - Says who? Has the headline writer studied astrology, or is s/he merely channeling kneejerk popular reactivity? Does the real scientist dismiss things out of hand, or does s/he actually investigate?
When people ask if I 'believe' in astrology, I immediately say, No. I don't 'believe' in it, but I've studied it for 28 years, and I use it in my life. Astrology is not a belief' It's a set of practical tools, part science and part art, that demands a great deal of intelligence, intuition, empathy and skill to apply.
To the doubters and skeptics, I say, evaluate it. Give it a chance. Go beyond the admittedly sketch Sun Sign columns, and delve into your own chart and those of people you know and love. If you find nothing in this exploration, fine. Chances are it will be an eye-opener, though.
47
@km There have been a plenty of studies https://www.nature.com/articles/318419a0 showing that that astrology has ZERO predictive power. So, seriously there is nothing to talk about here.
I am actually surprised that NYT published this article without explicitely emphasizing that all the evidence show that this is pseudo-science.
14
Of course it's difficult to understand. If it were simple, people would immediately see through the nonsense.
Still, it's an interesting cultural phenomenon and, I suppose, mostly harmless.
23
So the exam is more difficult than the LSAT? And more precise, I bet.
4
@cjpollara And open book. Not like the LSAT.
What really hurt astrology was the nonsensical foretune-telling printed in the daily papers. However, a natal chart properly cast is unique to an individual, given that it captures the moment of birth at a specific location. Take an experienced professional astrologer and give him/her the natal chart of someone you know that they have never met and you'll be astonished at how much they can tell you about that person--principally character traits and challenges they have. And because they don't know the person, they can speak with insight that is difficult to otherwise come by.
Whenever I meet someone dismissive of astrology, I ask whether they have had a chart made and interpreted. Almost invariably the answer is no. Those who have generally come away with respect for it.
58
@Mr. Beanbag so if Astrology is so accurate then why is birth time so arbitrary. when is exact birth time, when the doctor gives the time or when the baby crowns or when the umbilical cord is cut. Seems to me if it's such a science why not accuracy. One of best examples of how much rubbish Astrology is was when a professor wanted show how people will believe anything written abut themselves. So he had an astrologer do Hitler's chart. he then asked 12 of his students over to house he told them he had each of their charts done. one by one they read Hitler's chart and all they agreed it described themselves perfectly. people will believe anything you want them to believe.
2