Wow. He wants fascism, but only the good parts?
8
Mr Friedman, I am surprised you have the audacity to write again on this topic, given the fiasco of your now-infamous hagiography of M.B.S. You easily bought what he was selling, when it was clear to the rest of us that he is no such reformer. It would have been nice to see some admission of guilt and some personal responsibility in elevating and promoting M.B.S as a reformer and your gross misrepresentation of him to your readers.
28
Maybe it's my age (68), but I'm struck these days by the frequency with which I find myself, while reading or listening to the news, thinking that people are idiots. I have in mind the stupidity of MSB and the rest of his luxury-laden Saud family. I also have n mind the stupidity of the Saud sycophants in this US administration, and chiefly Mssrs Trump and Pompeo. These goofballs have been trying to persuade us that the US should be for sale. But why, I ask myself, would any young American go to war for a country that stands only for making money, human decency be damned? Have we become a people whose offspring are presumed to be mercenaries? Is that GREAT? After all, that IS the basic "logic" being floatedby Trump and Pompeo. (I.e., America is all about making of money, humanity be damed.)
13
October 17, 2018
We have a universal interest in terms of safeguarding journalist worldwide and where this fails all nations must seek to facts and demand resolve to those that would soil the word of justice as much a divine right - a secular commandment and all too live towards reforming waywardness, ineptitude and neglect to basic honor and trust in the name of humanity and its pillars of five W's.....
JJA Manhattan, N.Y.
1
Almost 10 years ago, we tightened our belt and put solar panels on our roof. I remember the day when the installers showed up with those shinny blue panels - they were beautiful. Those solar panels were our personal way to fight Bin Laden. Solar panels on every roof should have been the top priority of our government after 911. Instead, we are fighting un-winnable wars, giving tax cuts to the rich, and continuing to buy oil from Bin Laden's homeland. We must wean ourselves from our dependency on the Saudi oil. Playing with that tar baby is STUPID. MBS and his whole murderous gang have shown us their true color. We must free ourselves from the Saudi tar baby ASAP.
10
MBS owns America. Get used to it.
3
There is nothing we can do about Saudi reforms. The Saudis will decide that weather we support the Crown Prince or not. It is very naive to believe that MBS will make a significant change in the country. So far he managed to make a Coup d'Etat in which he got even more money and power to spend for his own benefit. Fancy palace and yacht in the 500 million dollar range. It is a little strange that Saudi Arabia together with the West are fighting "terrorism". Saudi money paid for the creation of Al Qaeda(Sunni) may be also ISIS(Sunni). Saudi money paid for the attack of USS Cole, the African embassies and 9/11. The level of president Trump's stance would be the equivalent of when the Nazis killed Jews say that it has nothing to do with us because it happens in Germany. Wake up!
6
It’s a mess, yes, of our and mostly Trump’s making. What about dropping the Saudis and being serious about making peace with Iran? Oh wait, we just dumped the Iran nuclear deal and put all off our bets on Saudi Arabia. One can easily come to the conclusion that out government is run by Saudi money, Israeli influence and Russian subversion. Trump has shown again to be the stupidest and weakest president ever. When will his base, his cult finally drop him?
9
Tom, it is unfortunate that you and other elites have been so naive about MBS. Your fawning coverage of MBS this past year or so now has been exposed as a sham once and for all. Amidst all of the press about MBS's supposed reform agenda, you and others conveniently have ignored the near-genocide that the Saudis are raining down upon the people of Yemen. Even in this column, you are outraged about Mr. Khashoggi's death -- but silent about what is happening in Yemen. The so-called reforms in Saudi Arabia are just for show and you (and others) have been blinded by the glitz of MBS's traveling show and PR machine. To a certain extent, you have been complicit in this atrocity because you helped create the myth of MBS as a believer in Western values. The Times itself did the same thing not too long ago with its interview with Assad in which he was portrayed as a "new" kind of autocratic Middle Eastern ruler, remember? How did that turn out? These despots always will be despots -- they simply are younger, more-refined, more-educated versions of their predecessors, but just as evil, if not more so.
5
First of all, Trump is not complicit in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. He may, or may not help MBS cover it up, assuming that he in fact ordered the killing. On the other hand, it would be wrong to say that the Saudi Royal Family or the fundamentalists are crazy about MBS and so it wouldn't be crazy to think that maybe someone other than MBS ordered this. If so, to do anything that would undermine him would be foolish. And even if he ordered it, do we want to undermine his authority or destabilize the Saudis? We've allowed bad actors to continue in power if it is in our best interests.
You have to ask -- what would MBS gain by having Khashoggi killed? If his main criticism was that reform wasn't going deeply or broadly enough, perhaps MBS might want to have him silenced because the conservatives in Saudi would be even more threatened. But why have him killed in such a way in the consulate? That seems more like sending a message to those who are pushing reform.
And I think you have to ask re Trump -- what do you want him to do? Attack an ally when the ally denies wrongdoing? Without any supporting evidence. Maybe Trump could have handled it better, but I'm sure he was echoing what MBS told him. Did you want Trump to say -- MBS said it was rouge actors but you know Arabs lie like rugs, so we're going to impose sanctions?
1
We have a 'transaction president' with no global perspective of morality, leadership, and long term consequences. The Saudi's 'buy things' and that is enough for this administration to ignore anything else that is historically important to our country.
3
Nice article, Mr. Friedman, I agreed with much of what you said. But why do you think reform (or rather restoration) of Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance needs to begin with Saudi Arabia? Why can't we do what we can over here by voting out Trump and his ilk? Those who claim that Muslims are the enemy. Hatred will only breed more hatred. The more the US does to show Muslims that we are not an enemy of Islam, by not supporting Israeli expansions into the West Bank and having more open doors for refugees, the more the lies and propaganda of the extremeists will be shown as the falsehood it is
3
There are no Saudi reforms, it’s a scam PR exercise. The only way Saudi Arabia will reform is if its royal family goes the way of the French one.
5
I used to be wild=eyed about American values, but after 9-11, learned that these so-called values were just made for TV propaganda. Our military and security forces were no different from those of the dictatorships that we maligned on TV and in the movies. And as long as they supported our interests we were more than happy to support brutal dictators everywhere.
And as we learned in the last elections and will again in Nov, at least half of Americans don't particularly care.
4
Islam in Saudi Arabia is more a political tool for the ruling elite to cling to power than a religious or to spiritual pursuit.
2
“I believe 9/11 was the worst thing to happen to America in my lifetime.”
I’m older than Friedman, and the worst thing, by far, to happen to America in my lifetime is Donald Trump. Nothing else comes close. The damage he has done already is grievous, and if not repudiated at the coming election will be irreversible. America survived 9/11; I’m not sure we will survive Trump.
10
Trump just wouldn't appoint an ambassador in Riyadh. He does not want another set of eyes and ears with the slightest opportunity to know what's going on between him, Kushner and the Saudi Royal Family. Unless, of course, he can send Erick, Donald Junior, or better yet, Ivanka who displays many of her father's traits better than the boys.
Pompeo and General Kelly, he seems to have come to trust but once bitten, twice shy. (Not that he himself is a trusting person by any chance, to begin with). Still, he has been bitten by the likes of such close associates like Cohan, Manafort, Gates and all those in touch with the Mueller team. He could also appoint Giuliani, Christy or Corey but he'd be afraid that these people might set up their own deals on the side.
In any event, it shouldn't take long for a person with an eye for easy money to get into that game. Like the rich weaklings anywhere, Saudis are world class bribers. Their diplomatic parlays start with offerings of gifts to opponents that go on increasing in size and value as the negotiations drag on. Their strongest suit in any negotiations is to bribe the other side. Should the negotiations come to an insurmountable impasse, they'd take their time until an opportunity comes for them to stab the adversary in the back.
Luring and killing someone in the guarded sanctity of your diplomatic mission is another form of backstabbing.
3
I'm appalled at the naivete of someone as seasoned as Thomas Friedman.
MBS is a fraud, as is his family and in fact, most of his country. Allowing women to drive is just for show, for PR in the West. They denigrate women, they would like to obliterate Israel, and they wouldn't mind seeing the West's demise either. They sent over a dozen killers to kill Americans on 9/11. If we didn't have nuclear weapons and a $16 trillion economy, Saudi would be a real problem.
They killed Khashoggi as sure as we are sitting here. But what's to do? The really cynical thing would be to condemn it and go to the United Nations and ask for censure, etc., while conducting trade with them in the background. But at least on this one, Trump is not going to be a hypocrite and pretending to do something. There are lots of countries that go around killing people, and we have done it too. While I abhor the brutal killing of this decent and learned man, what really are we going to do? Nothing, that's the truth. Welcome to real politic.
6
Capitalism cannot be reformed, not a chance. It can be however altered , albeit slightly. That's it though. Capitalism by its nature and capitalists will do business with anyone, as lomg as they can make a decent profit. Democracy , human rights, liberty, justice, are all window dressings. A side show for the bumpkins to believe in while they are being used and abused like chattel. Saudi Arabia= a human rights violating, Arab Country with lots and lots of money... sadly , that's what counts; not a pesky, troublemaking Saudi born journalist. The Royals in Saudi Arabia were glad to seem him go.
1
Trump is not about to let a little thing like this mess up a multi-billion dollar arms deal, let alone harm his investments. I'm sure the Saudis have been informed as much.
2
Trying to help with a reform is totally crazy. This reform is only a façade.
OK. What does it mean to not overlook that M.B.S.’s government also has Jamal’s blood on its hands?
I'm not sure any of us know.
One idea: let's make it clear to the Iranians that the US is open to a re-alignment. If the Iranians, at long last, are willing to quit sponsoring the murder of Israelis, maybe the US will give it a go with Iran for a while. After all, the Iranians have killed less Americans than the Saudis. If the Iranians would give the Israelis the same courtesy they give to Americans, the world could be a very different place.
1
We should have taken it to the Saudis after 9/11. Alas, the oilman in the White House didn't want to make his Saudi brothers angry.
Now, we have a dunce in the White House who would sell his own precious daughter if I meant more money and power for himself. Any decent leader of our country would not tolerate the torture and murder of a Washington Post reporter, PERIOD. Instead, Trump is trying to figure out how much he can get in cold, hard cash from the Saudis to look the other way. Mitch and Paul's silence, along with the rest of the GOP, is deafening.
We should have kicked the Saudis to the curb for their horrific human rights abuses and their blatant objectifying of women. It's never too late to do the right thing.
5
Tom, I believe one more very important event that predates 9-11 where we used the Saudis was the establishment of madrassas (Schools) in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Subsequently they spread them worldwide. Traits of barbarism don't melt away even in generations.
Saudis routinely practice these barbaric acts in Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia particularly in Sehat, Ahsa, and Qateef.
Saudis butchered Sheikh Nimr a year ago for his criticism of the Government, strangely one of the supporters of his murder happened to be a Saudi Journalist Jamal Khashoggi (http://bit.ly/2Acb4Ud). Saudis are not a loyal bunch and pretty soon the bodyguard (Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb) of MBS would be thrown under the bus and would be prosecuted for the killing of Khashoggi. It would again be a travesty of justice and President Trump would take the credit and brag about his contribution in resolving this issue.
It is time to sanction Saudi Arabia, particularly MBS not just for his ordering of dismemberment of Jamal Khashoggi while he was still alive but also for MBS role in creating a man-made famine and many human rights violation in Yemen.
If President Trump is unwilling to take action, Republicans in the US Congress must try to save our values by on a bipartisan way sanctioning Saudi Arabia.
7
Part 1 of 5
Respectfully, regarding reforms, the problem is not the specific type of expression Arab and Muslim outrage is given but the reason for that outrage. It is the message given to the people (mostly young) by the West that (hashtag) Non-Western Lives Don't Matter most recently given voice by President Trump in his remarks,'their Saudi citizen' and 'He's not an American, right?' In the sixties Arab countries trying to get out from under the subordinate status of being colonial puppets tried communism, socialism, some variants of democracy. All these experiments never got them out from under western domination and being treated as lesser. Iranians, post Shah rule, have spoken of an entire generation of intellectuals removed from their society under our backing of the Shah.
3
We, as a nation, as a society, have an addiction: oil. It's killing us, it's killing our environment, our children's future, and it's running out.
We need to free ourselves from our drug dealer The House of Saud sooner than later.
We should have listened to President Carter, put on a sweater, and invested in renewable, non-fossil fuel energy.
Time to break the addiction!
2
Yes, I need to remind myself, this tragedy is just another tragedy that the Saudi government has been responsible for. As long as there is Yemen, there is no possible reform and the publicized reforms were fluff to cover fierceness in any event....
Please try to understand, Mr. Friedman.
8
Please Thomas Friedman, just rethink. We all make mistakes in judgement, but we need to learn when the mistakes become obvious.
8
I wish the folks who are so outraged about this could've spared a thought for Loujain al-Hathloul, Iman al-Nafjan, Aziza al-Yousef and the other women's rights activists detained and imprisoned in Saudi Arabia. Or maybe for the children of Yemen? MBS's "reforms" look a whole lot like window dressing.
10
Do we need any more indication that our President's welcoming attitude towards tyrannical behavior encourages evil?
How can we express outrage as a country, if our leadership gives a wink and a nod to the killing and torturing of journalists?
Saudi Arabia is an important ally, and they will continue to be an important ally. As an independent country they have the freedom to do whatever they want. If we don't project moral values, if the rhetoric of the POTUS continues to talk about fake news, we've got no moral basis for outrage.
6
Unless something incredibly forceful is done to the Saudis in punishing them for this unprecedented heinous act, then every single journalist, Mr. Friedman included, will temper their criticism of this regime, always wondering in the back of their minds whether they will some day meet up with the guy with a bone saw in his briefcase. That said, Mr. Friedman continues to be dead wrong about MBS. He is more radically inclined than his predecessors. Time will demonstrate that.
6
Friedman continues to show a level of naivety about everything he covers. I started observing it when he gushed over technology companies, an area I know well. It was obvious to me how he was being taken in by their public relations people.
But that made me aware how naive he has been about politics and MBS. The NYT should republish his original piece as a service to show how wrong he can be. That piece was remarkable for being naive and intellectually dishonest. It causes me to question now all that he writes.
11
In Elon we trust.
Hopefully this despicable act has put an end to any planned military action against Iran jointly by Israel, US and Saudis. Last thing you want to hear is Friedman trying to justify one war after the other in the ME, that is bankrolled by the US.
4
Friedman writes:
The other was America’s cynical bargain with the Saudis, which went like this: “Guys, just keep your oil pumps open, your prices low and don’t bother the Israelis too much, and you can do whatever you want out back — preach whatever hate you want in your mosques, print whatever conspiracy theories you want in your papers and treat your women however you want.”
It's Friedman and the rest of the Left that has done everything they could to keep America from being energy independent:
- banning additional offshore drilling
- stopping drilling in ANWR in Alaska (which was specifically designated for drilling in the 1970's)
- trying to stop fracking
- eliminating instead of building or upgrading nuclear power plants
- opposing pipelines, like the Keystone Oil Pipeline
Until we're energy dependent, we can't give ultimatums to the bad guys.
(Note that Trump recently reprimanded Germany from being completely dependent on Russian oil and gas. They also stopped or drastically reduced their nuclear energy production.)
Mr. Friedman, Perhaps you forgot to mentioned the decades when US was in bed with the fundamentalist to fight a holy war with the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, at that time all of the Saudi fundamentalist teachings were applauded by the US and the west. Also let's not forget that Mr. Khashoggi was a complicated character himself. Before the regime change in Saudi Arabia he wrote in favor of the Saudi Govt and later continued to support his patrons and friends by criticizing the new Saudi govt. I am not trying to say at all that deserved to die for this, I am not condoning it at all.But I am trying to point out that he knew the risks of what he was doing.
On the same lines, recognizing that the media went up in arms right after they found out that he was missing. But I heard little noise when a school bus carrying 40 children was hit in Yemen by the Saudi air force using american weapons. Thousands of people are already facing starvation due to war in that country. I do not see any major news organization losing their mind on that.
Why can't you be at least honest to yourself and your readers and say that statecraft is dark business no matter which state it is, we all have to live with it weather we like it or not. Mr. Khashoggi is probably dead but there are a lot of other dead people that we do not want to think about because it is not in our interest.
6
Why, Mr. Friedman, to we need to promote reforms in Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia is not our friend, and never has been. It is a breeding ground for fanatics and terrorists, including the instigators of the 9/11 attacks, and is only important to the non-Muslim outside world because of the oil they pump out of the ground.
The reason why we must promote reforms in this barbaric, un-reformable country, Mr. Friedman, is because you and other Middle East mavens in Washington have been leading us down the garden path for decades. Once we get our energy act together (better sooner than later), developing fusion, wind and solar power, we can say goodbye to Riyadh and pull our hands out of a festering cesspool.
9
Being a Muslim and a big fan of Mr.Friedman, I like to say that there can be no religious reform in Islam. Islam can not be changed or reformed. Yes, Saudi Arab can be and should be changed. Their Wahabi and Salafi preaching have to be stopped. Spreading violence or assassinating opponents have to be stopped. Bombing and killing Yemeni innocent people must be stopped without delay. I had great hope and admiration for MBS but now I think he is not the person to change anything for better. Instead of going forward , he is going backward to early 20th century.
4
Nothing short of cutting off all diplomatic relations, nullifying and voiding arms sales and maintenance contracts, freezing Saudi government financial accounts in the U.S. and allied countries and refusing to allow Saudi citizens to enter the U.S. indefinitely, until the Saudis dismantle their theocratic monarchy will suffice.
Saudi Arabia is exhibit #1 in the argument for the abolition of theocracies. They still decapitate men and women for adultery, in public. It is entertainment for the devout.
The U.S. will be no better if the Christian right is allowed to take full control of the White House, Congress and the Supreme Court, a goal that it has made significant strides toward accomplishing in the past 50 years.
But Trump, envious of the wealth of the Saud family and the power the Saudi Monarchy wields over its citizen, will find an excuse to leave things status quo.
4
The "hidden genius" Jared Kushner will come to the rescue, no worries.
6
Pretty good column, but... Why are we there? Why do we need these people? To do their dirty work, sell them weapons that blow up innocent civilians in the Yemen? We dig up more oil than anybody else in the world, and if we would pay attention and start working hard on alternative energy sources, we don't need a drop of their oil. Only god knows what some of these extremists are cooking up as we speak.
We need them to hold off Iran? Look what we did to those people after the CIA installed the Shah.
That big smile on Pompeo's face made me physically ill: we're all gonna be taken for a ride again. Trump's reaction to it made me wish for an oxygen tank. This isn't America anymore; just all the chickens coming home to roost.
4
The sight of Pompeo having a fit of giggles with MBS while discussing how Khashoggi was butchered alive should concern every US citizen.
Further, the President's repeated, open embrace of the world's worst tyrants, and his early signals to whitewash Khashoggi's murder, signals to journalists worldwide that the United States has no stake in their security.
More evidence, as if any were needed, that POTUS and his administration have no interest in democracy. The longer they remain in power the more they will erode global freedoms.
124
Honestly if it were up to me, I think I just might leave the Middle Eastern Scorpions fight it out while we sat on the side lines. In spite of all of our efforts and I don't know many trillions I don't see that we have accomplished much of anything worth while in the ME. It is an area beyond our understanding and control and all we do is get hour hands very dirty trying to do anything. With all the money we have wasted there we could have solved many of our domestic problems.
1
Tom, there is no dilemma. Salman is no 'reformer', he is a tyrant and a murderer. Saudi is no true ally, it is a cynical manipulator gaming the US while promoting terrorism and prosecuting a monstrous war against the people of Yemen. There is no US interest that trump's justice for Jamal Khashoggi and his fiancé. What should the US do? Plenty. What about not selling them any more weapons? What about not minimising his conduct by calling him MBS? Will the US finally stand up its so-called allies in the Middle East?
4
Sorry, but I detect a Trump light approach by Mr. Freidman to the monstrous act by the Saudis. We just can't let go of oil and Israeli influence it seems.
2
Has anyone postulated that MBS ordered this murder in plain sight to test just how far Trump's loyalty to him goes?
5
Trump thinks we are all stupid and gullible and naive and easily fooled. Trump floats his 'rogue killer' theory yesterday which just pointed out he can't - nor can Pompeo or the Saudis - be trusted nor believed. Ever.
It would be bad enough that Khashoggi was tortured and brutally killed and then dismembered. But to try to foist these lies on us.....just infuriating.
Trump should not be leading our country. And no one is protecting us.
5
Sorry, Tom, "reform" is not even in the dictionary for a dictator who orders vicious murders. Saudi Arabia is not reformable.
59
Someday perhaps, the verifiable facts of the Saudi royal family’s direct or indirect complicity in this current alledged murder and the 3000 murders of 911 may be revealed. The Royal extended family, to quote Louis XIV, is the Saudi state.
When revealed, will 911 then be understood as an act of war by the Saudi state?Or will some future American president and America’s security agencies again place the free flow of Saudi oil above the murder of 3000 Americans by a dozen “rogue hit men” who incidentally were also Saudi citizens traveling on Saudi
passports?
To channel Joseph Stalin’s obscene claim, one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is just a statistic.
5
There goes Friedman doing his best to make the wrong thing sound reasonable.
The Saudis are worse than Iran on every measure. They are the leading exporter of extremist, terror propaganda on six continents. Iran is doing nothing that compares to what the Saudis are doing in Yemen with U.S. weapons.
Stop arming them, and stop caring what they think.
10
Where is the mea culpa? Friedman fell all over himself lavishing praise on MBS and now , in a desperate effort to salvage something of his reputation, he offers us this? The Saud family has produced no one with a whit of humanity to my knowledge. MBS nature was obvious to anyone with eyes to see way back when Tom wrote his fawning column.
Saudi-Arabia is a failed state, and for once Trump is right; without US military , financial and diplomatic support, the current regime couldn't last very long ( but probably much longer than 2 weeks). It is sycophants like Friedman who are so easily taken in by any regime that makes nice with Israel, either covertly or overtly, that bear a large share of responsibility for the US being totally on the wrong side of history in the Middle East.
It is high time to stop supporting the despotic, fascist and apartheid regimes in the middle east and get America's actions aligned with America's values.
8
You don't slap a Prince on the wrist for this atrocity. If you want to make an omelet you must break a few eggs.
Thomas leaves out several facts:
1) The "radical" turn that he describes after 1979 was encouraged and funded by the USA to help them fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. So spare us the moral speech. That all gets trumped by US interests.
2) The USA has more to do with the creation of AlQaeda/ISIS than Saudi clerics. From the initial funding in Afghanistan (until they became disposable pests after the fall of the USSR), to murderous demolitions and heinous war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq, to Guantanamo, to its propping up of dictators; all had more influence on the extremist recruitment sales pitch than any Saudi clerics.
3) Saudi itself has long suffered at the hands of these extremist groups, who have branded Saudi leaders (yes, including leading religious scholars) as "infidels". Saudi clerics have always been the most outspoken critics of this extremist ideology and played a central role in refutation of their religious arguments. They were also key figures in the ideological rehabilitation process of detainees.
4) How does Thomas explain that one of the largest sources of extremist recruits has been TUNISIA?! Yes, one of the most secular Arab countries for decades! I guess based on Thomas' logic, US-style secularism is what needs major reform for bringing us such terrorists!
5) This extremist ideology isn't part of the Saudi Islamic culture and never has been. They are deviant minority outcasts, no different than Christianty's relationship to neo-nazism or the KKK.
3
@Yusuf
You are understandably defensive. I totally appreciate the fact that the USA has likely perpetrated more evil on this world than Saudi Arabia has. You have to break a few eggs to end up the wealthiest and strongest nation on the planet and America has broken plenty of eggs. That being said.
1. America may have encouraged Mujahideen support for defeating the Soviets in Afghanistan but those Islamic fundamentalists came from Saudi Arabia, the USA didnt create them.
2. Im not sure America is more responsible for Al Qaeda than SA. The money used to support Al Qaeda came from SA and other gulf monarchies. That one is on you. Now ISIS, that one is on the USA. We broke Iraq and the disenfranchised Sunnis became ISIS. SA did provide support for ISIS though, so maybe we're 50-50 on that one.
3. Of course SA has suffered from their own extremists. This is classic blowback from endorsing and supporting a fundamentalist religion that brands non believers as infidels. SA has to rip off the bandaid of Islamic fundamentalism to go after these threats instead of pointing the finger at no Muslims.
4. Tunisia underwent a revolution. Unstable areas tend to breed those willing to fight in wars. Whats SA excuse?
5. I must disagree in the strongest terms possible. Wahhabism is the incubator of violent fundamentalist Islam. This is part and parcel with how fundamentalist and tribal Islam is sold in SA. Wahhabism is a cancer on civilization.
2
Good article but two comments feel really condescending and smell of cultural imperialism / arrogance.
The First ‘MBS...KFC I don’t care’
The Second that in Saudi ‘you will find people with long beards who don’t speak English’ - why are these two attributes necessarily bad things and indicative of a ‘dark side’. This is lazy stereotyping in an otherwise interesting article. Do they need to speak perfect English and shave their beards to be seen as ‘good’ and worth doing business with?
5
Mr. Friedman,
Can you say more about why you believe the Crown Price, President Trump and Secretary Pompeo won't get away with a cover story for the assassination? I would like to understand what meaningful consequences may result, and how it may protect similar journalists in the future.
2
In asking "what to do", I seem to have missed the part where you suggest hauling MBS before the International Criminal Court on murder charges. Oh, and indicting Trump as accessory after the fact.
4
@Dv/dx None of the parties involved USA, Turkey and Saudi Arabia recognize the jurisdiction of the Internal Criminal Court.
In 2007, MBS caused the global financial meltdown; nobody was held responsible. In 2018, another MBS causes a global morality crisis; nobody will likely be held responsible. A good solution would be to appoint Kushner as ambassador to Saudi Arabia and have his wife adopt a Trump-branded abaya as her signature dress. Till then, Saudis will continue stoning, beheading and bombing as they please.
1
We now know that the de facto leader of Saudi Arabia is utterly evil. If Kashoggi had represented an actual threat we could debate the matter. In this case a powerful man felt himself to have been insulted so he ordered a murder. Just plain evil.
We also know that this same guy is stupid, about as stupid as one can be. Obviously he thinks his country's oil and general wealth empowers him to do whatever he wants.
And, in particular, he feels he has strong leverage over Trump. He probably does but it may not be strong enough. Trump would love to sweep this under the rug, he may well try but that would have to be a pretty amazing rug.
64
@Jack Toner "We also know that this same guy is stupid, about as stupid as one can be. Obviously he thinks his country's oil and general wealth empowers him to do whatever he wants."
With a change of a few words, isn't that a pretty accurate description of the current occupier of the Oval Office?
1
What does he care if we censure him? He's already shown that he's going to do whatever he wants, the rest of the world be damned.
As far as reform, no regime this depraved and criminal can be reformed.
1
Mr. Fridman,
Can you please elaborate on why you think religious reform in Islam "can come only from Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam's holiest cities, Mecca and Medina". Looking back at the history, I cannot ignore the one huge religious reform that took place in Christianity and it certainly didn't come from the heart of the Vatican, it didn't come from anywhere in the holy land of Israel either. There is an old joke/saying among Arabs that "Egypt writes, Lebanon publishes, Iraq reads". I don't think the statistics today necessarily support that old joke/saying but I can't help asking why don't you think Egypt, for example, with Al-Azhar being a long-respected center for Islamic theology, isn't a more probable place for religious reform in Islam? You state that you believe America's biggest national interest in Saudi since 9/11 is not oil, not arms sales, and not standing up to Iran but religious reform. Quite frankly with the facts on the ground, I can't believe that statement. Furthermore, with your professed expertise on the region, I have a hard time believing that you yourself believe that religious reform "can come only from Saudi Arabia".
Please let me know what your thoughts are! Many thanks in advance!
2
Friedman's mistake is still believing MBS has a "reform" agenda. Like "Donald Trump wants to make America great," the statement is laughable if it were not so deadly serious.
5
This article is typical of the conventional NY Times columnists.
No, we should let Saudi Arabia do what it likes, and withdraw all American soldiers anywhere in the world back to the US. We should not be trying to intervene in other countries--the US only intervenes when it suits the interests of rich US citizens, anyway. Imagine how quickly Israel would make peace and end its concentration camps full of Palestinians if Israel did not get 100s of millions of US aid every year!, and had to get along with their neighbors on their own.
Think for yourself?
A recent Netflix movie on Saudi Arabia shows how their young are taught to kill Americans and others. Russia's Putin is also "training" its young to hate Americans. I simple policy is to cut all ties with such countries.
2
As usual, Friedman provides false alternatives.
First, it is the Saudi dilemma, not the American one. Get it straight finally, the Saudis need the US much more than the US needs the Saudis - even if Friedman doesn't get to do sweetie pie interviews with them.
Second, the so-called "reforms," e.g., imprisoning feminists, bombing Yemeni civilians with US provided hardware and targeting information can easily be sacrificed along with MbS. The tentative move from the Middle Ages to one small step into the 16th Century is hardly an advance to anyone other than a Saudi apologist.
MbS has an MbS agenda, not a "reform" agenda. Friedman has swallowed third-rate propaganda as a serious plan for change. Well, they never will change, will they, Tom. You are a fantasist, who has preferred to believe the MbS nonsense rather than the evidence at hand.
Moreover, if you believe that Islam in its origins was "tolerant," try reading the Holy Koran. It isn't all that different from the First (and Second) Testament: instead of kill the Amalekites, it's kill the "unbelievers."
4
It is not complicated. We are talking about the assassination of an American based journalist by a government that did not like what he was reporting. There is no middle ground. You either refuse to do business with a government that condones that kind of behavior, or you provide tacit support and reinforce the actions of that government by choosing to look the other way. What we choose to do says everything about what kind of country we are.
2
Thomas Friedman, thank you for this excellent sorting of the conflicts. The most popular comments tear you apart for apparently being too pro Mohammed bin Salman in years past, and I have no idea if they are right. I do note that they are attacking what you have not written about here, instead of addressing what you have written about. I try to read all your columns, and I do not remember thinking you were a Pollyanna about Mohammed Bin Salman, but a cheerleader for reform. Of that sin, I stand as guilty as you. Should we have invaded Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq? That should be an intesting topic, should you choose to analyze it for us. Or, are we competent to invade anywhere intelligently, after WW II? Sun Tsu wrote thousands of years ago, that invasion should be the absolute, last resort, after trying everything else, and is proof of failure of military intelligence and espionage.
David Lindsay Jr. is the author of "The Tay Son Rebellion, Historical Fiction of Eighteenth-century Vietnam," and blogs at TheTaySonRebellion.com and InconvenientNewsWorldwide.wordpress.com
1
One solution advanced by Senator Graham a Trump ally is simple ,all those princes MBS locked up at the Ritz can get together and select a new leader. With USA support they can do it despite MSB grip on power which can be questioned with an American hammer over the military supply chain. Trump however favors dictators and lies to protect them as he wants to be like them. Congress could show spine and stand up to Trumps nasty tweets ,bear in mind a democratic congress and Mueller report can expose the sleazy side of Trump.
1
"By the way, I don’t think they will get away with it."
Hah!
1. What about taking the moral high ground?
2. Trump admires and emulates “strong leaders”.
Is that not frightening?
2
65 years of NYT declaring Saudi rulers are reformers:
(Source: Abdullah Al-Arian)
1953: “King Saud as ‘more progressive and international-minded than his autocratic father.’”
1960: “King Saud has increasingly assumed the role of liberal champion of constitutional reform.” The Saudi constitution was adopted by royal decree in 1992.
1963: “This piece celebrates Crown Prince Faisal’s ‘burst of social reform and economic development.’”
1975: “Faisal, Rich and Powerful, Led Saudis Into 20th Century."
1975: King Khalid, was a “moderating force.”
1975: “planting the seeds of a parliamentary system in the kingdom.”
1982: “King Fahd has been depicted as the leading figure in a progressive, modernizing faction”
1992: “King Fahd ... moved toward modernization.”
1996: Friedman: Bulldozers ready to take on hard issues: “Yeltsin, Rabin, Kohl, King Fahd.”
2002: “Friedman models ‘2 futures’ for Saudi Arabia.
2003: On eve of Iraq War: Friedman makes the case that war “could drive reform in the Arab/Muslim world.”
2005: “Abdullah, who has fashioned himself as a reformer“
2010: Dowd: “Yet by the Saudi’s premodern standards, the 85-year-old King Abdullah, with a harem of wives, is a social revolutionary.”
2013: Friedman: Saudi King Abdullah “a real progressive”
2017: Friedman about MBS: “he is much more McKinsey than Wahhabi — much more a numbers cruncher than a Quran thumper.”
2017: “Saudi Arabia’s Arab Spring, at Last.”
NYT and Friedman: apologists for Saudi royals for 65 years.
12
@MC
Excellent summary MC. Thanks for taking the trouble to put that sorry time-line together.
This op-ed is a rambling brain dump. I understand that Mr. Friedman is understandably distressed at the death of his colleague and that is evident in his column. The issues are indeed complex, yet I was surprised to read another "on one hand, and on the other hand" Friedmanesque treatment of the U.S. Saudi relationship in the wake of this tragedy. Perhaps he should have waited a couple of days as more information was revealed. After this morning's breaking news, we now know for certain that there are gruesome taped recordings of the assassination of Khashoggi. Again, the need for opinion columnists to feed the 24-hour news cycle does not serve the reader well.
Having lived and worked in the Middle East, I know that there's a delicate balance between allies and enemies. And, that extremist elements can possibly usurp power in the Kingdom. Still, the readers of the New York Times are owed a more nuanced analysis of political and social forces at work here. Friedman, please update your article.
2
Tom,
Your insightful straight up opinion is greatly appreciated. MBS is the wolf in sheep's clothing. His rise to defacto head of KSA was not earned. It was stolen. He knows nothing of TRUE power, not to mention Leadership. Only a weak man tries to silence his critics via imprisonment, torture and murder. Just chop off their heads to make yourself look taller is his real by-line. Fortunately we live in a world where the final word is written by Natural Law. Those who are not Rightfully in a position of power will fall. One hopes his descent will be rapid and soon
1
2003: On eve of Iraq War, Friedman makes the case that war “could drive reform in the Arab/Muslim world.”
Friedman has never apologized for his cheerleading the disasterous Iraq War that cost hundreds of thousands of lives and created millions of refugees for an unnecessary war of choice so we could follow Friedman’s prescription for reforming Arab/Muslim world.
Friedman has always been an apologist for the Saudi Royal Family.
Friedman always has access to Saudi palaces to meet Saudi Crown Princes and Kings. Friedman’s “friend” Khashoggi got a different reception at a Saudi Consulate.
Friedman knows absolutely nothing about either the Arab or Muslim world beyond Orientalist tropes. Yes, Saudi Arabia is not Denmark nor was Saddam’s Iraq (America is not Denmark either). But Arabs/Muslims are not lesser beings (per colonialist/Orientalist world view) that require either an US invasion to achieve democracy (as in Iraq) or need to be ruled by absolute monarchs and Wahhabi theocrats (as in Saudi Arabia) who are generous enough to dole out reform per their autocratic dictums.
Want real reform in Saudi Arabia: get rid of the monarchy, get rid of Wahhabism in all forms. Just like every other group on the planet, Arabs and Muslims will struggle, it will be messy (was for everyone else), but they will get to true reform.
Stop with the lies that Wahhabism was moderate before 1979 - Wahhabism was and is a poison. Stop propping up Kings, Emirs, Sheiks and Dictators. That’s real reform.
7
Thomas Friedman writes: "We can debate what was the right response to the attacks — Afghanistan, Iraq, the global war on terrorism, the Department of Homeland Security, or metal detectors everywhere."
Surely you don't think there's any debate left over whether the invasion of Iraq was good idea.
The War on Terror was a brand name. A real effort would have included an effort to reduce oil consumption, not a relaxation of the fuel economy standards.
5
Mr. Friedman wrote one of the most extravagant, fawning encomiums for MBS on November 23, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/opinion/saudi-prince-mbs-arab-spring....
I was in Saudi Arabia then, and his column was printed in every newspaper on the front page above the fold. It was the lead story in every newscast, and the topic of every conversation. It was taken as a full American endorsement for the Saudi Royal Family. It was assumed that President Trump approved of the piece--as would follow from Saudi local experience concerning their own government.
Now look at Friedman trying to squirm out of his sycophantic praise. He is a savvy journalist with long-standing credentials in the Middle East. He should have known better then, and definitely needs to be chastened for this lapse in judgement. He also gave enormous cover to Trump and Jared Kushner for their rather stupid fawning on the Saudi Royal Family.
The Saudis are not good friends for the United States. Friedman brushes over the fact that 15 Saudis (of 19) were the engineers of the 9/11 attacks. He ignores the genocide being inflicted on Yemen and the repression of non-Sunni minorities throughout the Middle East financed and supported by the Saudis.
But of all this, the enablement of Trump is perhaps the worst. Friedman can wish for Saudi religious and civil reforms, but as long as Trump equivocates, waffles and refuses to confront MBS and his ailing father, King Salman, there will be no improvement.
11
Trump, genius that he is, has calculated that ignoring the Khashoggi assassination won’t cost him the popularity that losing a billion dollar deal would. At least he’s up front about it.
3
Dear Mr. Friedman; I think you sullied your reputation when you acted as a promoter of this savage, out-of-control, regime in the past. I understand that you have done that to serve a higher cause and there has been no "falling in love" with that regime. But, now, by trying to advise the Trump administration how to clean up this mess, you are doubling down on your past mistakes. I am afraid, that could lead to an irreparable damage to your profession. For your own sake, please stop this!
4
Once again we look for OUR interest. Let me remind you, OUR interest should be the RIGHT interest. Nothing more nothing less. So we should always do the RIGHT thing period.
2
You write "...we have to make sure that the social/religious reform process in Saudi Arabia proceeds — whoever is in charge there. Because that is a vital U.S. interest."
Who are "WE"? And how do "WE" ensure reform Saudi Arabia? Are "WE" the Great and the Good? Do "WE" ensure the reform over dinner at Davos or the Aspen Institute? Are "WE" the same people who caused the Iraq and Afghanistan fiascos and who can't "solve" the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
4
Just move (Postpone) the November 5th Iran secondary sanctions deadline which includes petroleum by 2 months and see the effect.
2
This commentary reflects the American schizophrenic & contradictory attitude to the events that have determined US politics for the last 17 years.
Mr. Friedman states that the attacks of 9/11 were the worst thing to happen to America in his lifetime. But this did not affect his erstwhile support for the authoritarian leader of Saudi Arabia's government.
Yet we know that the attackers were mostly Saudi nationals. We know that they were aided in this country by Saudi government officials. In response to a lawsuit initiated by the families of 9/11 victims, the American court system-- and the American Congress, in a near unanimous vote--have held the Saudi government to be complicit in the attacks and legally responsible.
But nothing can get one excluded faster and more definitely from legitimate political discourse in America than to question the official version, that the attackers were in effect 25 Lee Harvey Oswalds, psycho killers motivated by religious fanaticism, with no outside support.
I suspect that the American government is dependent, not only on their oil and arms money, but on Saudi silence.
6
Here's a suggestion on that reform question--since Saudi Arabia is, inexplicably, not on Trump's list of banned Muslim countries, why not just invite everybody who wants to get out from under that oppressive regime to come here! Visas for everybody!
Wake up, Tom, M. B. S. couldn't care less about social/religious reform. Your Israel-coated-glasses never allowed you see anything clearly.
You are over-analyzing and over-rationalizing the obvious. Trump is a thug. M. B. S. is a thug. Pompeo is over there now doing damage control. There will be no censure.
Sorry for the loss of your friend.
10
This is Thomas Freedman's darkest moment as a journalist clearly suggesting that our American government should continue to support the so called crown prince.
Otherwise known as a brutal murderer. Making it that much worse in effect condoning his murder of a fellow journalist ! By the way no mention at all by Friedman of the so called crown prince's unbelievable brutality in Yemen. Shame on Michael Friedman for this apologetic column.
5
If he truly believed in reform and religious tolerance why would he attack Shiites all over the middle east. Why do Christians in the middle east prefer Shiite rule to Sunni? It isn't b/c Shiites are less tolerant.
The U.S. is should be a natural ally of Iran NOT Saudi Arabia and both Iran and the U.S. are idiots for not putting aside their differences to face off against Sunni extremism. In the end though follow the money to find out why.
8
"I believe that the roots of 9/11 came from two terrible bargains. One was that bargain between the Saudi ruling family and the kingdom’s religious establishment, where each blessed the other. The other was America’s cynical bargain with the Saudis, which went like this: “Guys, just keep your oil pumps open, your prices low and don’t bother the Israelis too much, and you can do whatever you want out back. "
The same could be said about Pence and the Christian Right. "Holy Koch Bros.!"
5
Revolutions are led by people, not princes.
1
“They would arrest religious extremists, but Saudi leaders almost never engaged them in a public war of ideas.”
What Saudis?!
I have lived in America since 1995 but I haven’t met a single journalist or a columnist willing to engage in exchange of ideas and frank debate.
But forget our free press. I repeatedly offered to our government a way how to defeat the terrorism a thousand times cheaper and ten times faster than what they have been doing but they never called back.
From my personal perspective, I don’t see any difference between Washington D.C. and Riyadh.
That’s why we have been waging the longest war in our national history. The fools always attract each other and find a way how to start a conflict, even if they live at the opposite ends of this planet.
I came here as a refugee from Bosnia and ex-Yugoslavia. I thought we were the most stupid people in the world for destroying a tolerant, prosperous and normal country.
Do you what is the only thing worse than the first neighbors fighting each other? Those traveling across a half of the world looking for the wars and murders…
It is irrelevant if you are heading from the east to the west or otherwise if you are doing it for the worst reasons.
If two sides fight each other and you help ANY, they brought you down to their level. If you criticize both of them for such a stupid behavior, you are trying to lift them up out of mud and mutual misery.
1
This murder reminds us how life really works. The Saudi family has hundreds of MBS wanna-be’s all sired by kings Saul, Faisal etc and in endless murderous competition for ascendancy. Expect more of the same, or worse.
2
The world knows this act was heinous and depraved, and when it is proven that the Saudis did knowingly murder the journalist Trump and Pompeo are going to go down in history as enablers of an evil regime that shows nothing but contempt for anything other than wealth. Trump should be impeached and Pompeo should resign, but unfortunately, that will never happen because we have elected people who function the same way elevating profits above decency and morality. Shame on us.
2
What dilemma? Trump IS America, he has no values and his interests are making money, telling lies and inciting violence.
2
America is drifting toward fascism led by Trump and his minions. His ignorant unenlightened base has easily been led into fascist thinking and has now embraced that mindset.
This incident with Saudi Arabia begs for a democratic and humanitarian response condemning the violence and calling it out for what it is.
Instead Trump is looking for a way to manipulate Americans into accepting this violence as a big mistake that should be overlooked. Business as usual should continue according to Trump. Nothing should interrupt oil production and the defense industries.
Trumps effort to move America into an authoritarian state is an obvious faint into fascism and should be recognized as such!
3
Pay attention to MBS' own words: he says quite openly, he is not a reformer. At the same time he publicized images of women driving, he arrested several activists who had been pushing for that change.
He rounded up all other potential challengers to his rule and extorted $123B from them. Sounds like a great guy we should be nice to.
2
You are in denial about the war crimes again, first in Iraq and now in Yemen. So abstract and theoretical you are when you sell out humanity for pie in the sky fantasies about reform. Go to Yemen and share the risk of your grand bargain proposals.
3
I also wonder if the response by Trump and Fox News would be different if it was a Fox and Friends host who was dismembered while alive by a Saudi hit squad?
Boy hope we never have to find out...
2
"Hey, maybe it was all just a fake to cover for a power grab and win Western support." Maybe??? It was OBVIOUSLY part of the power grab. Why Mr. Friedman was so thoroughly bamboozled and believed otherwise is a mystery.
1
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. I'm deeply skeptical of policy hawks on the left and the right calling for the removal and replacement of yet another Middle Eastern dictator, irregardless of their moral outrage.
"I don't think they will get away with it" ......
" I was rooting for it to succeed (MBS' reform agenda)" ......
Yet again TF displays his pie-in-the-sky optimism. YES, they will get away with. Trump and GOP strongly approve of strongmen silencing the press - although they are perhaps a bit abashed at how clumsily it was done in this instance. And, NO, Saudi Arabia will not be reformed. NOT EVER.
2
We do nothing about the hundreds of thousands killed and the coming starvation of millions in Yemen.
What is one more body just because he has a Washington Post byline?
The instability in the ME is a good thing if you are big oil and defense. Higher energy prices in a world awash with carbon, and backlogs on defense contracts that let you sell gazillion dollar aircraft that can't be counted on to fly, or ships to be combat ready.
A show trial, and someone sentenced to a long stretch at the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton. A most severe punishment limits them three different western sex workers a week, and then with Islamic grace a pardon at Eid Al Fitr.
We are the stupid you can't fix.
2
Interesting that Friedman talk extensively about 9/11 and his hopes for reform in the country. However, as I read the early article and glanced the remainder, he never speaks about his own trip to Saudi Arabia less than a year ago, when he published a massive propaganda piece in favor of the Saudi Government.
If Friedman can't recognize his own failure's, he has no purpose being a journalist.
9
Am I missing something. When is someone going to make a connection between Trumps "enemy of the people" and "fake news" and the bating of journalists at his rallies and the assassination of journalists in Moscow and this assassination in Turkey.
Trump is a fascist and this is evidence of his fascism. Why is this connection not being made?
3
@HT Because the theatrical baiting of journalists for political effect isn't the same as killing them? Maybe that's what makes him different from M.B.S. and Putin.
1
The reason for our discussion here relates to Mr. Khashoggi. His disappearance or whatever happened to him is now daily headlines. All news point a finger at Mr.Khashoggi's native country, and its leadership.
Prior to Mr. Trump's presidency, as far as we remember, we have had an obligation or dependency on Saudi Arabia. Perhaps, it had all to do with OIL.
Almost all of the 9/11 perpetrators were from Saudi Arabia. Whatever happened to the 9/11 Commission of Enquiry - thought there was one? One would have expected Saudi Arabia to be on the list of countries on the Travel Ban. Unclear whether Saudi Arabia is a real ally.
Mr. Friedman, the Saudis have to be guilty for all the complications they have created around the world. It starts off with their involvement in exporting the distorted version of the Islam religion. So, when M.B.S. says he wants to bring changes or reforms to the religion, it is a laughing matter. Simply because, two of the holiest sites for the Islamic faith are located in the Saudi kingdom, does not make them own the religion, or even dictate the present or the future of the faith. The world has changed, and so has the followers of the faith.
If M.B.S. believes in bringing about real reforms in his country, the change must start at the top. The royal family must get to aside and establish democratic institutions to implement reforms and changes. This applies to all of the middle east region. The Kings and the Sheikhs will not give up what they have now.
Thomas,
Maybe a better way to repent for your support of the genocidal MBS, and cheerleading of previous humanitarian catastrophes and crimes against humanity like the U.S. invasion of Iraq, would be to write a column on how bone saws work, or on famine and stunted growth in Yemen.
Thank you so much.
1
America’s Dilemma: Censuring M.B.S. and Not Halting Saudi Reforms
We have a national interest in Jamal Khashoggi’s saga.
[ A thoroughly disheartening essay, lacking in any morality that I can discern. What reforms? What reforms? The Saudi government is criminally laying waste to Yemen and Tomas Friedman is talking about not halting reforms. What reforms? Five women driving for a week? ]
3
Almost an exact repeat of Friedman's cheerleading for the Iraq War and "Suck on This."
Perhaps Mr. Friedman could help prevent such egregious behavior in the future if he would be just a bit more cautious before becoming the world's most prominent and enthusiastic cheerleader for wars of opportunity and thugs like M.B.S., as he was a few short months ago in these pages.
3
Please.
Which side are we on?
There is neither doubt nor equivocation in this matter. Here is a act both gruesome and petty, done in broad daylight specifically send a message to any who dare criticize Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. Perversely, it is an admission of insecurity and weakness.
Trump's complicit dissembling is one of his most disgusting failures of leadership to date. Enough discussion.
1
Bin Salman's claim to be a reformer was just a ruse to shake out the dissidents. Khashoggi, who knew the darker secrets of the Kingdom and its conduct in Pakistan, Afghanistan and throughout the Middle East and probably 9-11 too, was caught in that trap.
Friedman appears to have fallen completely for Salman's trickery.
1
An excellent op/ed column from Thomas Friedman. A thoughtful analysis of both our current and historic relationship with Saudi Arabia and the devil's bargain we've made with them. Finally, thank you for calling Jemal Kashoggi's murder exactly what it was - disgusting. If our government colludes with Saudi's leaders by accepting their dubious story about the murder being conducted by 'rogue operatives' then not only will the Saudis have Mr. Kashoggi's blood on their hands, we will as well.
America is in the middle of the greatest stress test to it’s system of government in it’s history. Trump is compromised with respect to Saudi Arabia due his personal business interests and his inability to consider this atrocity as it pertains to international relations, narrowly focusing up arms sales while ignoring the destabling effects of a nation state murdering individuals in other countries.
We have a President who is conducting the nation’s business to suit the interests of his private businesses as well as exhibiting bad judgment rather promiscuously. He exhibits submissive behavior to offensive acts against our country and the principles which it demands of other countries deserving to be treated favorably whenever it could affect his own business interests negatively to react assertively. He lies to promote what he wants and asserts all facts which contradict him to be false. His credibility is beyond recovery.
But he approves any legislation and policies which the majority party controlling the Congress wants and they let him do whatever he does without any opposition. The legal checks and balances are not being applied to the President’s inappropriate behaviors, both those intended to whip up political support and those to advance his personal business.
We may survive one arrogantly irresponsible and unethical President but not a situation where the Congress no longer will act to oppose such a President when it conflicts with short term political advantages.
1
It amazes me that you think we have any effective influence on what the Saud family does or believes. I don't wake up in the morning wondering whether some Saudi princess will get her drivers license and I don't think the Saudis worry about whether they will find a market for their oil. The corruption in Saudi Arabia is not my main concern; the corruption in the White House is. We have a President whose BFF are acknowledged murderers: Putin, MBS and Kim Jong-un. Until that rot is eviscerated, we have no moral voice on this planet.
1
While I found that Mr Friedman was hopelessly naive in his optimism about the "Arab Spring," I think that his opinion piece today is spot on in his understanding of the dilemma posed to the US in the person of the crown prince.
No, you cannot fix stupid. You can only remove stupid.
In the US, removal is in the province of the electorate or in the process of impeachment.
In Saudi Arabia, removal is in the hands of the Saud royal family, or in the imposition of a de facto reversion to colonialism.
Should Islamic terrorism, fueled by Saudi Arabia and not Iran by the way, once again assert itself by attacking civilized countries, we might once again see the secular nations of the world resort to Machiavellian foreign policies.
Saudi Arabia and other Islamic theocracies will most assuredly be losers in that scenario.
1st, as a bit of history trivia- the piece mentions that the House of Saud "owns" the holy sites...how did they get them? Mecca and Medina were held by the Sherif, the guy portrayed as the big ally of Lawrence of Arabia in the film, an adjunct in the Big Game to the UK who got his sons thrones in Baghdad and Amman from the Brits for his help. But...a rather visci0us chieftan from the desert one upped him by grabbing the religious sites, funded and armed by America(n petroleum moghuls). Fun fact.
Which led to a whole tapestry of interventionist threads (Lend Lease to the Saud in WWII?) bringing us to here and now. A sad place of dilemma and bad options.
If we wish to deal with un-fun facts, and we must- ISIS was a creature of SA. The whole Op to overthrow Assad has Riyhad's bloody finger prints all over it. (and the condottori style jihad fighters...just freelancers who would move from FSA to Queda to ISIS to SDF and back again as best pay). That horror was our cat's paw's baby.
But to the current disaster...once SA admits they killed K (it is rather a bit for Kafka, crossed with POE) comes the demand to hand over the body. If it was desecrated, per Koran, there is a sacrilege that undercuts the House of Saud long term. Like maybe forever.
While Muslim heads of state and business moghuls may be placated with increased oil doles, an underground grassroots psychological operation will increasingly expose that corruption and undercut them, too.
Then soon this falls onto us
MbS can't build but he is a great destroyer. So, push him hard to crash the ultra-conservative religious establishment while we build a modern core of educated Saudis, mostly outside the country. At the right time, reverse our protection of House of Saud and let them fall. Help the new core to take over. The alternative is to continue protecting a corrupt and criminally immoral family and partner in their crimes till a radicalized Saudi mob kicks us both out.
@Shiveh
"The alternative is to continue protecting a corrupt and criminally immoral family and partner in their crimes till a radicalized Saudi mob kicks us both out."
I am afraid a "radicalized Saudi mob", represented by MBS and those around him, has already taken over the country. Let's not kid ourselves; any mob coming to power in Saudi Arabia will be headed by a "prince". What happened in that Saudi embassy two weeks ago is a clear indication of that. As Friedman suspects, "the reforms" are part of an astute political move to ensure the West giving him a free-hand, while he is busy removing his rivals and grabbing power.
1
@Eddie B.
I was referring to a mob like the one that overthrew the Shah of Iran.
"Trump might start by appointing an ambassador to Saudi Arabia." and Turkey and South Africa and Singapore and, what is it 48 countries with no US Ambassador and many others still in the nomination stage and no confirmation. I guess not having ambassadors allows for the development of one-on-one, self-serving relationships for the man who would be king–his family the line of succession.
The West has been promoting an appeasement strategy towards the Islamic world since oil was discovered there in the early 20th century. Had oil not been a factor, the Islamic world would have likely remained as a poor retrograde backwater where tribal skirmishes flared occasionally. Oil wealth has bought them advanced weaponry and the means to destroy, but not the reforms that are a natural result of social evolution over time.
People adhering to 7th century ideologies of conquest and supremacy shouldn’t have access to 21st century weoponry.
@Shenoa
Clearly you have a limited appreciation of the Islamic world. For starters, Indonesia, the country with the largest Muslim population, has little oil. The next country in that list is India, which is largely democratic but is an oil importer. The third is Pakistan, again with no oil.
Even if one assumes that by "Islamic world" you mean Middle East, still the point you are trying to make applies only to Saudi Arabia. With so much prejudice and lack of knowledge, you should be able to find many friends in Trump's base.
1
Although I doubt Kashoggi is the teddy bear that Friedman claims, the barbarity of what was purportedly done to him requires some serious punishments of all those responsible. Especially those who gave the order.
Note though that Kashoggi was not as altruistic as Friedman claims. It has been widely reported that he backed a different contender to the throne, and the horse he backed lost. His position in Saudi intelligence is also not as innocent as his journalist title would suggest.
This is barbaric politics from the Middle Ages. It has no place in the western world, but instead of moral pontification, we should also recognize that the Middle East is a dangerous and ruthless region in need of drastic reform to turn their page on this kind of barbarity.
Should MBS immediately lose his Crown Prince title if it can be proven he is behind this? Perhaps, but lets also take a look at his replacement. Ultimately, we need someone running that country who wants to work with western modernization instead of literalist interpretations of ancient books.
There's no solution to this situation with Trump as the President of the U.S. I don't believe he especially cares that Kashoggi was murdered on orders of the Saudi rulers. The more important thing to Trump is arms sales to the Saudi regime and their supposed support of U.S. interests in that region and whatever else may result in profit for moneyed U.S. interests in Saudi Arabia.
Trump is the most amoral President this country has ever had and he will not take significant action against the Saudi regime for this barbaric and premeditated murder as his own lack of morality likely leads him to view this crime as something that must be weighed as politically inconvenient but not an occasion for sanctions on the perpetrators if it gets in the way of making a profit.
Mr. Friedman's is trying to do a 'mea culpa' by talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Mohammed Bin Salman is nothing but an entitled thuggish tyrannical Saudi with impulsive tendencies, and little meaningful education. The belief he's a reforming "messiah" dissolved into nothing when he incarcerated a group of businessmen to extort fortunes under the guise of "fines". It crumbled with the genocidal disaster in Yemen, and when he imprisoned human right activists.
And by the way, fundamentalism in Saudi and its spread started with Wahabism much before the 1979 Mecca takeover.
The "reform" act is nothing but an act...and the "big teddy bear's" visit with the honchos of Silicon Valley, etc was nothing but a PR exercise...equivalent to Al Capone visiting the Vatican (to copy Mr Friedman's occasional bonhomie).
This Administration will do absolutely nothing of substance with Mr Khashoggi's murder, and/or will concoct a fantastical story about a high-placed Saudi intelligence officer who caused him to die of a cardiac arrest.
Two reasons for this: money and oil. Should this Administration levy sanctions of the Saudis, oil prices would rise and disrupt its plans to curtail Iranian oil from flowing. An uptick in gas prices would cause political turbulence during the 2018 and 2020 elections.
The other reason is simpler...present future business, arm sales, hotels, real estate, financing, investments...could become as ephemeral as mirages in the Rub' al Khali desert.
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The cure for this kind of stupid is active, informed, intelligent, professional engagement. Managing complex international relations is the job of the State Department, not the president's son-in-law or the heads of multinational corporations. Vote.
This is a unique opportunity for the US that Trump will surely blow. MBS did something incredibly stupid and self-destructive in ordering the grisly murder of an outspoken opponent instead of finding a way to co-op or neutralize his opposition. It exposes his naivete, hubris and the Trump effect of admiring autocrats. MBS is now on his heels. The US should use this opportunity to both censure MBS for the sake or our moral leadership in thew world and ensure that the "reforms" in SA are broadened and baked in and that MBS, if he lasts, will aggressively undermine his anti-reform opponents. The House of Saud seems like a teetering relic of the past. The real danger in SA is that will fall and be replaced by something far worse.
Did you read the WaPo account of Kashogi’s murder given to Pompeo by Turkey? That there is a sound recording of him being beaten, drugged and dismembered with a chain saw while still alive? This by members of MBE’s security team, as you affectionately call him. The reforms you hearald sound pretty superficial compared to this. And your moral equivalence sounds like economic expedience befitting authoritarian globalism.
This, Mr. Friedman, is a huge bummer and an even huger blunder. Did Khashoggi actually pose a threat to M.B.S. as say Mueller does to Trump? Because I imagine that if Trump could get away with shooting Mueller in broad daylight in the middle of 5th Avenue, he would.
Instead, M.B.S. sloppily approved a hit squad to take out Khashoggi without a care about how those like you, would respond to such a completely crude action.
What can come of this and what can now come of the legacy of Khashoggi? He is now a martyr in a struggle who gave his life in the battle for greater freedoms.
I suppose that those who led the civil rights movement of the 1960’s well knew that sacrificing life would ultimately be the only way to lead a country and its leaders to find a way forward. Perhaps that will be the ultimate sacrifice of Khashoggi. Perhaps his murder will spur M.B.S. to do better and do so faster.
I agree that M.B.S. has a long way to go in finding a way forward for his country, his people and his religion. And perhaps Khashoggi’s murder will make him more active when it comes to reforming a country that we simply do not fully understand.
Naturally, the international community must take a stance here, to draw a line. But all of that effort will be a complete waste if M.B.S. can’t find a way to find a better way forward.
There was no "reform" in Saudi Arabia. There was window-dressing intended to fool people like Friedman into a declaring reform was afoot.
Our bargain with the Saudis is much more than just "keep the pumps pumping and do what you want." It is the close relationship between US power and economic elites (such as the Bush Family) and the Saudi Royal Family. It drives a vast arms trade, and oil services industry. It drove the first Gulf War.
We are not and have never been trying to "defuse" Salafi jihadism. Rather, we have spent the last 35+ years creating and supporting a particular form of Salafi jihadism, while completely failing to grasp the consequences of that. We picked the Saudis because they funded anti-Soviet Mujahadeen in Afghanistan. We sold them arms. We defended them against Iraq. We created permanent military bases in the the Muslim holy land. That is what caused 9/11. But instead of understanding that, we doubled down on our support of the Saudis, destroyed the principal non-Salafist enemy of Irani militarism, and plunged the world into permanent war.
9/11 may indeed have been the worst thing to happen to the US in his lifetime, but the costs that Friedman describes are not the costs of 9/11. They are the costs invading Iraq, and the travesty of the Bush-Cheney regime.
Friedman needs to stop papering this history over with his delusions and biases and his love of rich Arabs. The Times needs to stop publishing him.
2
Censuring, yet ultimately condoning, Muhammed bin Salman with the forlorn hope that this muderer and enemy of the free press will institute reforms in our natural interest while directly undermining our constitutional values fails to acknowledge the character and substance of the crown prince.
Like Duterte, Putin and Trump, he lacks the moral fiber to act dependably beyond the sphere of his personal interest. Can he be bought off and paid for indefinitely? Is it in our national interest to support unprincipled demagogues indifferent to democratic values?
Will everyone, especially Mr. Friedman, please realize there is no reforming the House of Saud. This is a criminal enterprise that will hold onto its power by any means possible. M.b.S is the "Dapper Don" of the Saud "family." Propping up this House of Thugs will end like our propping up of the Shah - disasterously.
1
Remember, Trump is not just going with the rogue killer theory, he is now going with the presumed guilty until innocent cry. This will play well with the US GOP electorate as it is parlayed with the Kavanaugh hearing. Trump has no reason to hold MBS accountable.
Saudi Arabia is a bad player in that region. It's a brutal, repressive, authoritarian regime that has caused much misery for its neighbors. Iran is a much better partner for USA - it can become a more progressive, free and open democracy than Saudis will ever be. Iran is also the product of an ancient, long, proud civilization with strong civic values. It needs to be bought into our sphere of influence for a win-win outcome. The knuckleheads in the White House and the chaotic train-wreck siting at the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office are either too irrational or too timid to act on that Iran strategy.
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Talleyrand said of a political act: It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder. This blunderous prince has weaken considerably, which may not be bad thing considering his propensity to gamble. The two biggest bullies in the yard, Iran and Saudi, are both under pressure to modify their behaviour, something good may come of this yet.
MBS's idea of modernization ("reform") will probably stop with allowing women to drive cars. Why on Earth should we expect him to do more: to live with transparency? to ditch his murder squads or $500 million yachts; safeguard human rights?
Surely none in MBS's interest. So let's not compromise our values over this desert sheikh's.
1
American exceptionalism is predicated on the ideals on which the country was founded - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These ideals which formed the core of our foreign policy for two hundred plus years were advanced and sustained by our economic power and military might. As standard bearer of these universal ideals, American moral power was assured by a world in which fickle tyrants or venal politicians ruled the roost. Everyone looked to our great country as a moral and impartial arbiter. This in turn, contributed and fed back into our economic clout, as we negotiated agreements and treaties backed by the rule of moral and secular law. This, was our real wealth, the well springs of the great American enterprise. We did not get here by bending the truth to save a hundred billion dollar deal, or to looking the other way, while international thugs like MBS perpetrate ghastly and grisly crimes, unchecked and uncensored by anyone.
In short, American foreign policy was always founded on a clear vision, and well established, and time tested, universal ideas. We have paid a heavy price when we have been short-sighted and acted transactionally, for some perceived tactical gain.
And now we are in danger of throwing away this carefully accumulated trust and confidence - the source of our real wealth, thanks to Trump. And as for MBS, he is too toxic now. Who will ever feel safe in Riyadh now, or for that matter in any dealing with the Saudis. MBS must go.
Since the knowledge is widely available -- see the article in
"Die Welt" and "The Spectator," why are you so reticent or evasive about Kashoggi's long-time support for the Muslim Brotherhood?
@Dr. Svetistephen That a reason to be dissected? His political views? Seems irrelevant.
America's "values" include the murderous rampage in Yemen which the USA actively assists. There won't be justice until the USA stops enabling these horrors, including the butchering of Khashoggi, by stopping its interventions and manipulations in the region. Then genuine reform can come from the people who will sooner or later sweep away the House of Saud and fake reformers like the sadistic MBS.
1
The Saudis have figured our that if they soften their anti-Israel stance;build up their military;feed western journalists some crumbs(restoring the right of women to drive and opening cinemas), they can regain the power they lost with the decline in oil revenues.This is a very cynical move and they have a money hungry fool like Trump to handle their public relations in the U.S.All of this to counter the influence of Iran in the region which,by the way,lets women drive(they even drive taxis) and has not closed it's cinemas.Obama was right in figuring out that a modernized Iran was the best bet to bring peace to the middle east in the long run.
1
The Saudi's are not our friends. They are selling the very substance that is overheating the planet. We need to move from carbon immediately and it is going to shock the economy but it must be done. The sooner we part ways with the Saudi's the better. 15 of the 19 9/11 terrorists were citizens of Saudi Arabia. The Saudi's spread the most extreme form of Islamic hatred of the West. They have murdered a US resident and leading journalistic voice of reform of one of the most extremist countries on the planet. These people are not our "ally", they literally are killing us.
2
This column is a big nothing burger. It defines the issue and offers no solution. The issue: What does U.S. do when leader of an erstwhile ally commits cold blooded murder? There is precedent for doing nothing. For example, to defeat Hitler the FDR and Churchill overlooked Stalin's murder of millions of Russians to effect his economic policies.
But we are not fighting Hitler at the moment. So at a minimum, why can't our government simply acknowledge the truth? MBS is not in an American court. He is in the court of world opinion.And if the President and Secretary of State try to cover up the crime, why can't the Congress pass a resolution condemning their actions and affirm the truth before the world?
Will justice be done? I doubt it. But the least our government can do is speak truth to power and affirm American values.
Friedman is spouting nonsense. MBS is an ambitious spoilt kid who is being played. The British perfected this art of "divide and rule" in India, and the first step in this saga was to get MBS to kill his Arab neighbors in Yemen, with a bombing campaign. With blood on his hands and no moral moorings, why should he now stop?
America has stood for moral values, not expediency. Unless we revert back to some semblance of principles, MBS and other global thugs will "do deals" with Kushner and Trump, to get their way.
1
@Baddy Khan "America has stood for moral values..." As when we inflicted "Shock and Awe" on the children of Baghdad? America has no moral authority, period.
1
Apparently Chrystia Freeland’s tweet about the arrest of several of the Saudi female activists and the Saudi’s excessive reaction to it was a warning to the world about the power struggle which has resulted in the obvious assassination of Jamal Khashoggi.
Money talks and........ we know the rest. MSB knew that he needed investment to diversify his economy, and provide jobs for the youthful population. Reform! That’ll work! Plus buy weapons from trump to use on the Iranians. Done and done.
However, the prince is a little Caligula , with his 500 million dollar yachts, his kidnappings and his mass incarcerations and now his borderline insane assassination of Jamal Khashoggi.
America is still at his side. Drooling over the money and yucking it up with the prince.
I’m sure Kavanaugh was delighted to be paired with MSB as their victims of political correctness, by the ludicrous trump.
Grand Guignol has nothing on us, in these surreal and horrific times.
It's not a dilemma. This outrageous fully premeditated murder of an American resident with American Citizen children absolutely cannot stand.
Imagine if our response to the 9/11 attacks had been a criminal investigation rather than an act of war. Two acts of war. Which are still going on.
We have kids serving in the military who weren't even born when the Twin Towers were hit. How long can we destabilize the world -- from the Caribbean to the Yellow Sea -- and expect to prosper?
Our defense budget and weapons deals comprise a huge chunk of the economy. We have permitted these corporate interests to dominate our politics and our government.
One thing you (i.e. the US ) can do is to be humble and stop making things worse. That means not cosying up to these people not taking sides in regional conflicts and not giving certain regimes carte blanche to do whatever they want.Moving out of the region toward an "offshore balancing" posture would be sensible. Stop pretending there is a leading or even any role in the region. If this sounds a little like what President Obama wanted to do, so be it. Not contaminated by Washington-think he was the most thoughtful President you could hope to have. We miss him now especially.
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You and I make decisions which are not compromised by our complicity with killers. We do not participate in killing in our daily lives. That is our most simple and obvious moral precept.
Our government should not make decisions which are compromised by complicity with killers. Our government should not supply anyone with instruments of killing, and our economy should not depend upon industries which do so. Our government should not murder our murderers.
Americans should not profit from making weapons. American politicians should be prohibited from receiving money from the manufacturers of instruments of killing. Be it here at home, or abroad. As regards individuals at gun shows, or armies abroad. Everywhere there is war, there are those who profit from it, and we should not be among them, you and I, because for us, it is the most simple and obvious moral truth that we should not kill, or support killing and killers.
Mr. Friedman, as painful as it was, 9/11 is not the tragedy of our times.
Our great tragedy is that our billionaires, politicians, and leaders profit from waging wars that protect their financial self interests, and from the proliferation of instruments of killing.
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@Eric Well said!
@Eric
Donald Trump as our 45th president is by far the worst thing that has ever happened to America.
You should have written this article!
1
You can't do wobbly -- that was Obama's fault. Stand straight and tall for values. Censor the hell out of the Saudi's; and don't worry about imagined influence on reforms. They're playing a PR game on that one anyway. Too much thinking is not good on this one. Ruining or badly hurting their economy will probably bring down the regime anyway, and there may be reforms come out of the mess; but of course, it is the Middle East where nothing good every happens!
Tom I think you are too harsh. Trump has responded, he's selling them additional arms. He sent Mike Pompeo to help concoct a fake news cover up. He'll send Jared Kushner in to schmooze with MBS. There all better now.
7
I'm 75, and worked most of my career with a large Engineering and Construction company. And we, along with many other U.S. companies, built out the Saudi's petrochemical infrastructure. The U.S. has been a slave to the Saudi government for as long as I can remember, and because most Administrations chose to "NOT" pursue renewable resources and alternative energy, we continue to have to placate MBS and any other of their ghastly princes of darkness.
Let's not kid ourselves Mr. Friedman, this is not about MBS or Saudi reforms. Its Oil! We react to them knowing full well, we need their oil. Make that go away and then, maybe progress.
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@cherrylog754
What an opportunity George W Bush missed after 9/11.
Americans would have done ANYTHING for their country back then, including tax hikes to pay for renewable energy.
It would have been an easy sell: the terrorists are financed by oil money, and BY THE WAY, we need to fix this climate change problem that even my dad was on-board with.
And to think that Al Gore could have been President in 2000, if not for a failed democratic system..
7
@cherrylog754, We Americans have enough and do not need Saudi oil--oil traders need it.
1
@cherrylog754
North America is a net oil exporter. The US imports some, and exports a little. We don't need Saudi oil, and in fact buy very little of it.
1
Mr. Friedman,
You ask how the United States should balance our values and our interests. I would argue that our values are our interests. It's my experience that doing the right thing works out the the best in the long run.
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@ubius Unfortunately, the current administration has no values, only interests.
2
@ubius
Nicely said.
And the same applies to Democrats.
If you sacrifice your values to win elections, you lose your values and 2/3 of all elections.
We should just accept that MBS’s reforms are just cosmetic. Saudi Arabia is not on its way to becomg a liberal democracy with a constitutional monarchy, and never was. If it wasn’t obvious already, the house of Saud has shown its true face in the last few weeks, and there is only one appropriate response for us to make.
5
A lot of people seem to be wondering which country is 'driving the wedge' in this case. If that was the motivation here, it would most likely be Russia. They have the most to gain from degraded US-Saudi relations. However, just because your 'enemy' wants something doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. We should have gotten out of the Middle East a long time ago.
2
MBS has proved himself to be a ruthless man whose personality borders on being a psychopath. The man initiates a war that is responsible for killing approximately 20 thousand people, he initiates a fissure in the Persian Gulf by picking an irrational fight and position with Qatar, kidnaps a Lebanese prime minister, and sends 15 people with a bone saw to Turkey to kill a Saudi and International journalist and dismember him. He has shown no sign of humanity, remorse, nor even feigned that he perhaps was not involved.
The international community and the Saudi political establishment must censure MBS and insist that he step down. MBS does not possess the maturity and humility, or the qualities to transform a nation and lead it into the future.
MBS is unfit to lead and the future is not looking good for Saudi!
6
So briefly put, to deal with this we need a knowledgeable President capable of thinking complex situations through, so that he can figure out measured ways of both retaliating and encouraging.
Okay. Yeah, this’ll go well.
6
Thomas,
Without condoning or excusing Khashoggi's murder, since you have the context to understand the complexities of the situation here: could it be that M.B.S. _had_ to "sacrifice" a critic of the regime to hold off his many, dangerous, conservative opponents within the Saudi royal families?
With all the comparatively radical changes he has instituted so far (from a Saudi perspective), it may well be that something like this was required for him to maintain his authority, and fend off direct attacks on himself.
I would welcome your thoughts on this.
27
MBS is not allowing anyone to choose for themselves, he must give it and he must retain the power to take it away. He tells people what they will and will not do. He has made that very clear to all. His behavior is textbook autocratic ruler.
5
@Steven Since Khashoggi was a member of the Muslim
Brotherhood and a critic of MBS I think his murder was to send a message to the fundamentalist that push back against modernization of Islam would be punished. The Middle East is not Western Europe or part of the modern world. To not do what was done would show weakness and that is not exceptable to any modernizer. Before punishing M.B.S we should remember what happened in Iran when Pres. Carter punished The Shaw.
Autocrats change fashions of societies not societies. Reformers can get into civil conflicts when they enable people to enjoy rights which they have longed to have but have been suppressed by recalcitrant dominant groups. MBS is acting only to consolidate his own power by reducing the power of others. He allows women to drive but jails the women who protested for that right. This is no reformer.
2
America’s Dilemma: Censuring M.B.S. and Not Halting Saudi Reforms
I'm afraid that I disagree with the premise of the article.
Why are we, the US, responsible for the reforms or lack thereof in Saudi Arabia? Isn't it up to the Saudi's if they want to give up the tribalism, which is their current "government" and join the 21st century? When their actions have ramifications on others, like killing journalists that reside in the US, their have to be consequences. Other then that, I say it's up to them to modernize. Why do we have to offer them inducements to join the civilized world?
1
Friedman properly attacks Trump's incompetence frequently and is an important voice of rationality in the contemporary debate. But I get a queasy feeling in my stomach when he invokes 9/11 and the trillions of dollars wasted in the War of Terror which might have been more profitably spent elsewhere. Though he may be making strong amends for his sins, it is important to remember that he fervently and consistently embraced the catastrophic Iraq war.
5
Saudi reforms? That's sadly funny. Saudi Arabia sponsored the 9/11 attacks on the United States. We let them off the hook on that. The death of a journalist won't upset the apple cart. Trump will put on an act as he always does but he will not punish the Saudis. Business is more important than loss of life. Trump has extensive business interests in Saudi Arabia and he want sacrifice those. He also has made it clear that defense company sales of weapons are more important than anything else. Trump is amoral. He will make the US amoral also.
3
I don't believe Trump is tap dancing around MbS because of his concerns about arms sales. I believe he's concerned about his own business interests and personal relationships in Saudi Arabia.
5
I cannot imagine the anguish of writing this column that involved the murder of your friend. Americans and it appears the world are horrified and angry about the fate Jamal Khahshoggi but he wasn't someone we personally knew.
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He was a member of the press exercising his right to express his views on his country’s affairs. He offended the current autocrat ruling that country who had him killed in an horrific way to discourage others from expressing dissent with his decisions as a ruler.
Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
Here we go again: another dose of reality for the Troika gospel (the Left Coasts, the EU, the UN) who in their now rapidly diminishing tenure preached global harmony without the sword. But even the Left (Obama) need Lists of targets, and no sovereign state that is not a vassal has ever been able to put down the sword. This journalist knew the Saudi's intimately, and as such was in a position to exert considerable influence contrary to the head of state. Such knowledge could topple the throne. Putin's KGB defectors are worth billions to his enemies. European leaders banded together to slaughter Gaddafi in a ditch. How does this differ from death by poison or drone? Politics is never more than a velvet glove in an iron fist--very unsavory business. The first duty of any President is as Chief Soldier, who must swear to unleash a nuclear arsenal if needed. To paraphrase General Lemay: don't use politics and morality in the same sentence.
It should be clear by now that the current version of Islam, as practiced in Saudi Arabia, is incompatible with Western values. Will it ever be, that is a question that only Saudi Arabia can answer.
The Washington Post, in an editorial, posed the proposition that perhaps it is time to walk away from Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia has bullied the United States for years, but no longer holds any cards. Perhaps it is time to say goodbye.
5
Saudi Arabia is no better or worse than almost all the Mideast countries; fanatical, brutal, anti- democratic, and racist. This incident, as vile as it is, is perpetrated on victims every day in this part of the world. Friedman is right to proceed with caution. And Trump is right to proceed with our own national interest. If we were to get too moralistic about this then we would have to sanction every county in the Mideast. As is the popular saying in the Arab world..."my enemy's enemy is my friend."
11
@JACK
You are in error. KSA is far more fanatical, brutal and anti-democratic than most Near Eastern countries. They have had their oil money to shield them from reality and to use as a cudgel on their neighbors. If you had visited a variety of these countries you would see how different they are. Simplistic views produced simplistic answers which do not work in a complex world. And by the way, the "saying" you present is not limited to the Arab world.
1
@JACK Jack, Jack, Jack. An American resident is murdered on the territory of a NATO ally and you think it's normal and we shouldn't do much of anything.
Please give us one example of any Middle Eastern country doing something like this. Not talking about internal repression or wars. There's two side to those. Only one side to this since Kashoggi was not advocating violence.
Is Putin having folks murdered in England ok with you too? Would you draw the line at murders in the US?
3
@JACK "If we were to get too moralistic about this then we would have to sanction every county in the Mideast."
I have no problem with that. Perhaps you could explain why that would be a bad thing.
1
An excellent and well thought out article.
2
Let's see. I think I'll let women drive and the masses go to the movies. That should fool the west's so called intellectuals into thinking I'm a progressive. In the meantime sharpen up the bone saws. We've got work to do.
3
The many thousands of people tortured and killed all over the world by corrupt, criminal governments without much concern, and now all this headline producing hand wringing over one man because he is a journalist?
Is Mr. Friedman so ill-informed that he does not know what Saudi Arabia is doing to Yemen? Not one word here about that. Please, Mr. Friedman, do your homework and then come back and tell us about our vital U.S. interests. Murdering women and children is not one of those, the last I heard.
1
As usual Tom, your thoughts bring insights to all of us. What happened with MBS is universal and has been going on since the beginning of time. I’m 80 years old, and even as a child, I remember names like Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo and others. The shinning light for all to see was America. It promised hope and salvation from all the chaos everywhere. How did that happen? It’s a word called Democracy. We’re NOT ruled by a King or Prince or MadMan. Today, I’m NOT too sure!
All of the crazies that I mentioned before couldn’t do anything without the support of the masses. WE THE PEOPLE are supposed to be in charge. Hopefully sane citizens of the US will take control of the Presidency and Congress and attempt to put our lost ship back on course. The World is counting on it.
Now, getting back to Saudi Arabia and MBS. Their country isn’t ruled by democracy. It’s autocratic. Monkey see, Monkey do may sound like a children’s nursery rhyme, but it’s based on History.
MBS see’s Trump and...well, you know, Monkey...
We can actually fix this, but it’s going to take courage on the part of every citizen. You’re going to have to take off your Blue & Red team jersey, at least for awhile, and put on a White one and take our country back! It could be as simple as voting for Truth, Beauty and Goodness in a few weeks.
The Saudis are Wahhabi-barbarians...as are most religious fanatics.
An Ambassador to Saudi Arabia?
Wouldn't have stopped the murder. Would just be an opportunity for the so-called president to get another kickback and sell more real estate to the Arabs.
Reform...? You HAVE to be kidding yourself.
2
"Women driving, removing the Islamic police from the streets and reopening cinemas" are not only not "sweeping social, economic and religious reforms," they're indicative of nothing more than window dressing for gullible pundits who write for powerful platforms like the New York Times.
Mr. Friedman,
I’m just curious whether you still plan to attend ‘Davos in the Desert’?
3
Friedman is the most gullible foreign correspondent of all time. No one sang the praises of MBS more in these pages. It's mind boggling how much this guy has been consistently wrong on the Middle East. Least we forget Friedman was an early & enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq war. To imagine that MBS is some sort of serious reformer (that is, reform unhitched to his personal ambitions) is laughable. While imprisoning various princes in the name of combating corruption, MBS showered himself with lavish gifts, like a $500 million dollar yacht. While granting women the right to drive, he turned around imprisoned 7 of them, sentencing one to death. He is is truly the most ruthless Saudi king ever, with zero tolerance for criticism or dissent, & that is saying quite a bit. MBS was sold by Friedman as a reformer but was a product of the same system he purports to loathe... greedy & corrupt as they come. Accommodating to the US & foreign press. Ruthless when anyone threatens their interests. It will be interesting to see how much Saudi money has gone into buying the U.S. press, academia & government officials to sing the virtues of this Saudi boy-wonder. This columnist has belatedly realized he was a willing participant in this chicanery. MBS apologists are delusional, and have a lot to answer for. Like many readers here I'm offended that Friedman doesn't have the decency to own up to his latest blunder. The NYT should not be a party to this type of mendacity...it's embarrassing.
2
Thanks for the summary but this is an opinion Colima, so what is your opinion?
Mr. Friedman thinks the 9/11 attacks were "the worst thing to happen to America in my lifetime". The invasion of Iraq took place March 2003, less than 2 years later, and is far worse any way you look at it. I don't minimize the horror of the 3000 innocent lives cruelly ended by the Islamic fascists. But here is what the war has given us, 15 years on (and counting):
1. 4500 troops dead, and likely +200 journalists
2. 1.2 Trillion dollars utterly, uselessly wasted
3. 200,000 Iraqi civilians dead, due to societal breakdown.
4. Political amnesia at home, due to war propaganda.
5. Deepening US marriage to the worst people and ideas the mid-east has on hand, viz MBS and Netanyahu.
This is a very brief, sadly narrow accounting of Bush's gung-ho plunge on 3/29/03.Mr. Friedman might recall some of the 'thoughtful' writers who backed it. He was one.
The murder of Kashoggi could be, if Trump has his way, the normalization of US support for fascist thugs. How long before such horrors, grandchildren of the European 1920's, raise their bloody hand in the US? Thanks Tom, for backing Bush. How thoughtful you appear to your editor. Others see you as a supine mouthpiece for the worst, most murderous policy to be enacted "in your lifetime".
8
He's not a reformer, he's a dictator who made you feel good and you built him up. Don't act indignant now.
Your cute initialization of his name is highly indicative of the kiddie gloves you've been handling Salman with.
2
Perhaps Tom, you should have started your article as follows:
"Last November, I wrote an article about Mohamed Bin Salman (MBS). I was totally wrong about that and here are a few other things with regard to my views about the Middle East that I have been wrong about .... "
6
You know, I read this again and it is a bit annoying. Mr. Friedman says "You can't fix stupid." Of course you can. You can fix stupid by being smart. Secondly, he described what the Saudi's seemed to have done as "sick and stupid." Killing a well regarded journalist and dismembering them is not sick and stupid. It's barbaric. When ISIS was cutting off the heads of journalists we didn't describe it as sick and stupid. We went to war with them.
2
Just a short while ago Thomas Friedman was gushing over MBS and his liberal tendencies. Funny, how he seems to have forgotten that he was completely conned by him.
2
This is another attempt by Friedman to reconstruct and attempt to rehabilitate his credibility. He was one of the loudest and most ardent worshipers of MBS, apparently motivated by the his decision to let women drive and Tom's visit to the opulent palace. Now he cravenly avoids taking responsibility and attempts to write over and somehow cover up for his failure of judgment.
5
Let's see...The great man who "opened cinemas" has a dude tortured, killed and dismembered and Mr. Friedman wants to "censure him in some way?" This is the way it works when the filthy rich (you know, the ones who can't make it through the eye of a needle) took all cash and make all the rules.
2
This is a disgraceful attempt at covering up Friedman's complicity in assisting MBS to, in plain sight, take the reins as a new tyrannical middle east power. Friedman was not honest enough to provide an abbreviated list of the evil acts that MBS has undertaken since asserting power: jailing and disappearing of dozens of dissidents (apparently mow a medieval dismemberment of one), the ramping up the human attocities in Yemen and subsequent forcing of millions into starvation, the blockading Qatar...
I find this statement:
“Hey, maybe it was all just a fake to cover for a power grab and win Western support. But a lot of young Saudis I spoke to thought it was real and wanted more of it.” particularly galling given Friedman’s pretentions as a vibrant intellectual, a world economist, social scientist and all around smarty pants. Is that really his total research on the crucial point whether MBS is either very dangerous new tyrant or a wonderful reformer as Friedman has been peddling?
4
Friedman has no authority to speak to this issue.
The 15 Saudis (why does "15 Saudis" sound so familiar?) brought a bone saw and dismembered the body, which is barbaric but entirely consistent with a country that still publicly beheads people and sometimes crucifies the headless body to terrorize the public.
I hope we can stop grading Saudi Arabia based on the crumbs of civic access it deigns to give its citizens. They've opened movie theaters! Hells bells, they're practically the Netherlands. No, they're slaughtering thousands of civilians in Yemen, one of the poorest countries in the world. 13 million are in danger of starvation there. Read that number again. That's WW2 holocaust levels. But they're letting women drive!
And there's the giggling Pompeo, making a house call to cheer up MBS and make sure he still wants to be our friend. What a horror show.
4
Are you apologizing and admitting you were wrong about your previous glorifying oped on MBS and brushing aside of concerns about him? Till then, the less you say, the better, Mr Friedman.
4
It is all about the money. No one cares. This story will die soon as Jamal did. The US will keep it over the Saudis head to extract as much money from them as possible.
Trump won't lift a finger. Because he is corrupt and lazy. Now move along, nothing to see here folks.
2
You can't shake the image of the horrific murder of a fellow journalist now, but you, Mr. Friedman, never had a problem shaking the images of dozens of atrocities committed by the Saudi royal family and MBS. The images of Yemenis being bombed in their sleep and starving to death with nothing but leaves and grass in their stomachs was apparently tolerable for you. You could shake those images and I'm sure you still can. We, the readers of the New York Times, however, can not continue to stomach the atrocities of this regime which it commits in its own country and abroad. It's high time the NYT purges its staff of Saudi apologists and interests in general as its publications are not without blatant bias for the regime. Thomas Friedman, leave the New York Times, and stop inserting your hypocritical, harmful opinion into the public sphere. Changing your tune now is not enough.
2
I am having considerable difficulty in comprehending the irony of Mohammed Bin Salman's biggest American cheerleader hemming and hawing about our so-called "dilemma."
You helped make this happen, Tom. You empowered an autocrat by painting him as a reformer. When will you ever learn from your mistakes? More importantly, when will you ever take responsibility for your colossal misreads of US foreign policy?
4
Chaos is cash and cash is king!!
Netanyahu and Kushner leading Trump by the nose. Illegal Jewish settlement expansion continues, fueling tensions. US has no interest in peace or stability, arms sales would plummet. It's never about policy, it's always about money, follow the money, the oil, the arms sales. It's really all quite simple.
1
"It’s Islamic religious reform, which can come only from Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam’s holiest cities, Mecca and Medina."
Here, here, Tom.
But you, and the NYT, always stop short on this point. It almost seems that you are in favor of "Islamic reform" by our allies only. As if Saudi Arabia is our 51st or 52nd state, and the Saudis need to behave like 8th generation Boston Brahmins.
Your analysis would be far more credible if you, and the NYT, consistently criticized the elephant in the room, Iran.
Iran is the next North Korea. The Obama administration humbled itself before Iran, in much the same way you criticize Trump and his relationship with Russia.
The US paid hostage ransom to Iran, turned its back on the Green dissidents in Tehran, and negotiated a sweetheart deal of lifting sanctions in exchange for Iran getting a nuke in ten years instead of now.
The result is an emboldened Iran which foments unrest from Lebanon to Yemen and the Gulf, and which supports murderous dictatorships such as Syria. Not to mention Iran's ultimate goal of murdering what is left of the Jews after German national socialism.
All of the above in the name of the "hidden Mahdi," Iran's Shi'a faith which it exports and supports throughout the Middle East.
Iran is the bete noir of Saudi Arabia.
So, why so silent on Iran, Tom?
Is it because when Iran arrests, imprisons and tortures journalists, it is OK because they are not US allies, or friends of Trump?
I suppose that is it, isn't it?
1
Censure, Mr. Friedman? Censure? Censure is a mild, cowardly, vague and slippery word. M.B.S. should be removed from power. No slippery moral bargain is worth journalists being slaughtered for standing up to dictators and speaking the truth. That, you, a privileged and protected US citizen and NYT writer, should take a milk-toast position on the murder of a journalist is morally outrageous.
We mustn't pretend that all can go on as it has before, if only we clean up this one guy. He is an ugly symptom, not the problem. The problem is all the rest we are doing, we are part of, in the whole region. He symbolizes it, because it is all of one pattern.
"How should America think about balancing our values and our interests going forward?"
This is a limited view of the interests risked.
Yes, it is Islamic jihadi fundamentalism.
It is also world oil prices, stabilized by friendly handling of Saudi excess capacity. Hence, also the world economy.
It is also the confrontation with Iran, and by extension the whole conduct of nuclear non-proliferation, and Middle East peace thrown in there too.
It is also Israel, recently so proud of its new best friend in Saudi Arabia, and all that makes possible with Iran and in Palestine and in Syria and in Lebanon (whose leader he kidnapped for awhile just to keep him in line).
All of this for one murder, in a region that sees constant murders, and of journalists who submit articles to American papers too, and who have US visas.
All of this after overlooking the horrors of killing vast numbers of children, and starving more, in Yemen, in which we actively help.
We've overlooked so much worse, and always with an eye on these same costs.
I oppose the whole of these policies, but I can only call out nonsense on this Claude Rains-like "discovery of gambling" even as he is handed his winnings.
"I always knew that M.B.S.’s reform agenda was a long shot to succeed, but I was rooting for its success." - Saudi Arabia (or the House of Saud, rather) isn't interested in any sort of true reform. Allowing women to drive and loosening cultural restrictions are methods to placate a population that skews exceptionally young and more connected to technology; and it also happens to be a nice PR move. True reform would look something like a reversal of the Kingdom's relentless persecution of the Shia minorities, allowing women more latitude to succeed in business and politics, and turning around its absolutely atrocious human rights record, especially among foreign expatriate workers. Anything less is simply a feint while Mohammed bin Salman consolidates more power.
4
The Saudi state is based on hypocrisy and MBS is no exception. He imprisoned in the Ritz Carlson his prince rivals, accusing them of corruption and after they surrendered untold amounts of cash to him he bought a number of huge estates in Europe and yacht.
He is cunning, brutal and not very smart or competent. His leadership in the Saudis' war in Yemen is just one example.
His liberalization was a facade that sucked in Jared and many foreign businessmen hoping to benefit by investing in Saudi Arabia.
MBS was not educated in the West, his country's youth is poorly educated and he needs the West if he wants to bring the kingdom into a fairly modern state.
He undercut both Kushner and Trump by his stupid slaughter of an American resident. How far will the Congress allow Trump to go down the road of ignoring MBS's foul deeds?
3
This was such a STUPID action by the monarch that I almost wonder if he's being setup by his enemies? It just makes no sense otherwise, unless Khashoggi was sitting on a real bombshell story.
4
"I believe 9/11 was the worst thing to happen to America in my lifetime". I would agree
The worst column in my lifetime was yours advocating for the invasion of Iraq as a "war of choice". We destabilized the region and the Bush government relied on your cheerleading to sell the pretzel logic.
You applaud the Crown Prince for allowing women to drive and rollout of cinemas: shopping and entertainment as the pillars of liberalization rather than voting and representative government.
You have been the useful idiot of the Saudis and US government for far too long.
10
If MBS is a reformer why did he need to kill Khashoggi?
6
Like the Curia in the Catholic Church and the Chinese Communist Party, the only thing the Saudi ruling family wants is to stay in charge. Any amount of "opening up" within these organizations is doomed to fail as people will demand more, and finally a say in their own affairs, which cannot be tolerated. Of course, if the House of Saud falls, it will be replaced by the House of Somebody Else, not Jeffersonian Democracy. Really, the only way to deal with this part of the world is through a massive carbon tax, and infrastructure spending on mass transit. Anything else is a charade.
4
This newstory -- not this opinion piece -- reeks of all the in-your-face-arrogance and disrespect which Trump showed us by inviting the Russians into the oval office as they (Trump and the Russians) snickered, laughed and demeaned the so-called fake news press in our great country. Yes, we have made serious mistakes, but ----
The war on Truth will stop -- soon. But, not soon enough.
Yes, let's start with an ambassador . . .
6
As a high profile columnist in the New York Times it is laughably hypocritical that Mr Friedman calls out Trump's lame cover for this heinous crime. Mr Friedman was one of the most egregious supporters of bin Salman on his PR tour.
The fact that he still gets to write mealy mouthed rationalizations like this and get paid for it makes me want to cancel my subscription.
6
@Gord Lehmann
Then cancel it already.
How ironic. The business community is pulling out of the Davos conference while Trumps Treasury Secretary is still planning to attend. Why am I not surprised?
7
What a screwed-up column! Friedman expresses shock and outrage over MSB’s dismemberment of a U. S. journalist. But he advocates hand-in-hand buddy-buddy business dealings with the Saudis. The fact is, we don’t need their oil nor do we need their hostile attitude toward Iran and Palestine. The murder of Khashoggi easily equals 9/11 as an attack on our country. Spare us the moral equivocations, Friedman. I remember your advocacy of the idiotic Iraq invasion. Stick to your recognition that Trump is a great threat to the integrity of our democracy. Everything else should be off limits for you.
9
I'm sick and tired of people talking about foreign nations and the US' 'interests' in those nations. Stop using a euphemism! Without a doubt the only 'interest' we ever had in this nation was the oil, and to many in the military and in industry, fear that their oil might flow to a foreign power rather than the US drives everything.
We should not have such precarious relationships with such horrible nations that attack us with their ideas. You cannot reform this nation. We cannot help reform this nation. Only they can reform their own nation and only if its people want to reform it.
The US attained oil independence under Obama for a reason: so we could stop interfering in and propping up theocracies and dictators of our choosing in nations that hate our interference.
The answer is actually quite simple: stop all US imports of Saudi Oil and stop selling them arms.
The ramifications would be enormous, but realistic solutions cannot be found as long as the US has delusions of grandeur in the region. We cannot and will not control this region.
I should think someone so concerned about the environment as Friedman claims to be would look for reasons to force the US economy off of oil, but instead he talks about US 'interests' (oil).
If our foreign relations are so precarious that we need every president to fall in line, then our relations are far too precarious to be maintained. Even Jimmy Carter screwed up in the region.
Force the US off of Middle East oil!
11
Perhaps the real problem here is the idea that KSA has something useful to offer the world. It does not. If climate change is real, then we need them to stop producing oil. If religious fanaticism is a real threat, then we need to isolate them. Tell them to keep their money and their crazy ideology. Stop selling them weapons. Ignore them.
12
The idea that a member of the Saudi royal family is a reform agent is ludicrous. There can be no reform that doesn't involve the royal family relinquishing power.
11
MBS is an ambitious spoilt kid who is being manipulated, in an effort to continue the "creative destruction" of the region. He has already been killing his Arab neighbors in Yemen, why stop now?
The British perfected this art of "divide and rule" in India, where they destabilized the country by pitting princelings against each other.
America has stood for moral values, not expediency. Unless we revert back to some semblance of principles, MBS and other global thugs will "do deals" with Kushner and Trump, to get their way. And, leave us with a mess.
9
President is after 5% of $2 trillion & media educating readers on Saudis because one among them is apparently killed. When 9/11 didn’t change US relationship with Saudi, now if brutal killing of journalist who was a former Kingdom insider changes then it is an insult to the lives lost in 9/11. President Obama & Senators didn’t allow US citizens to sue Saudi on 9/11. Media including NYT even planned to attend recent investment events in Saudi Arabia, now because of this killing have changed the records. This too shall pass.
4
What reforms? That's a joke.
8
The proper names are criminal government and accessory to murder.
6
Friedman is like one of those ancient Greek sophists who went off to the courts of Sicilian and Persian tyrants to try to persuade them through flattery and gentle instruction to be good tyrants, refusing to admit that tyranny itself is the problem. Plato tried to turn Dionysius II into a philosopher king. It didn't work. I doubt Friedman will do better.
7
@John
Oh John, "Tyrant" meant something quite different to Ancient Greeks than it does to modern Americans.
No doubt my first diatribe was censored because of its Curtis LeMay-like overtones. The House of Saud is not who the US should be in bed with. The fact that it is and has been is an indication of the type of people who call the shots in this country. All hail Exxon and the MIC.
12
Simple. Create a world government and get rid of religions.
4
Are you really sure that Iran is worse than Saudi Arabia??????
15
@Gunmudder
Iran/Persia actually made significant contributions to world history and culture.
Arabia / Saudi Arabia has contributed nothing.
1
IMHO you should work on the "Trump case" before trying to interfere in the ME...The actual administration is a disaster on trade and foreign policies, Try to keep Trump playing golf and retaking the Congress in order to have a better "check & balance" before getting involved anywhere in the world.The USA actually han no more credibility;keep your energy for your country and get rid of the GOP.Best
5
Lol. And then Saudi Arabia sends the us 100 million in aid for Syria and makes the govt dance to its tune. Welcome to the way it’s always been.
1
If this Republican party continue to support President Trump and his friendship with Putin, Kim, et. al then killing critics is the new norm.
7
"So, once again, what do we do? I don’t have a simple answer."
Actually I think America's response and the American media's response is the BEST and ONLY response that is possible.
And its having its desired effect. The international Business Community is abandoning the Saudi's "Davos in Dubai" project in droves.
Cockroaches hate having a light shone on them. Khashoggi's murder is a case in point. They hate being embarrassed by their own stupidity even more.
It is impossible and inadvisable to excommunicate Saudi Arabia from the world. However, the world CAN demand more transparency, human rights and better treatment of its citizens.
Saudi Elites WILL eventually respond to being shunned by the International Community for this disgraceful behavior. Saudi Arabia should have been brought to account long before this when they kidnapped the Lebanese Prime Minister.
MBS is furious because he realizes his career is over. And so it should be. He is nothing more than a thug and his behavior proves it.
That's all you can do in a civilized society.
8
Saudi Arabia should have invaded instead of Iraq. It would have been easier, better for our war on terror and better in the long run for Saudi Arabia. We can still change our minds. That what we should tell the Saudis.
7
Lindsey Graham today attempted to separate the Saudi state from the Saudi monarchy (and its surrogate MBS).
In an absolute monarchy, no such separation exists. Excusing the Saudi state, while castigating MBS will be impossible.
“L’etat c’est moi,” as Louis XIV so famously put it.
7
Censuring? If this creep ordered or gave a wink to murder of a journalist he should be tried and receive the appropriate sentence as per the law of his nation. The Saudi reforms, if there really are any meaningful ones occurring, move glacially while our disingenuous, evil president moves quickly to support authoritarian rule world wide.
5
Your title refers to saving Saudi reforms? Thom, do you mean how the Saudi King’s/Prince’s prosecutor sought a brutal and grotesque death penalty (beheading) to punish a woman whose (non-violent!) crime was contesting the Saudi royals oppression of a religious minority? Or do you mean how women are still languishing in Saudi prisons for the crime of driving? Or do you mean the fact that it’s still widely accepted in Saudi Arabia to commit “honor” murders? Or the fact that women and girls still must
not leave home and move about without male permission? Or the fact that there is not a single woman with any power in the Saudi government?
11
Yes Mr Friedman, we all get it wrong sometimes.
Until the murder of Jamal K.'s flicked off the scales from his eyes, Tom Friedman pinned rather too much hope on MBS's intent and potential.
You can't fix wrong with facile arguments: Nope. no-one with half a brain ever did seriously mistake the Sauds' Kingdom for Denmark.
Neither does enlisting Dennis Ross help at all, except to confirm that even smart, connected, well-informed, well-meaning and experienced observers (and practitioners) do get it wrong now and then.
In these times of seldom-paralleled brazen duplicity by governments in power, better to err on the side of skepticism and -for example- to be a little less prompt than Mr Friedman to prognosticate a new dawn for Saudi Arabia.
6
Why don’t we have an ambassador to Saudi Arabia? What possible reason is there?
3
Poor Tom Friedman is trapped in quite a quandary when it comes to reforms in the Arab world. He desperately wanted to believe that a successful Arab spring would bring about long overdue changes in countries trapped in the Middle Ages. For a fleeting moment Arab Spring seemed to work but it didn't take long for the early optimism to fall apart. Still Tom Friedman kept believing that positive change was coming. He clings to this belief to this day.
Now Friedman wants to believe that Saudi Arabia can sweep away centuries of barbarism with long overdue reforms. Thanks to MBS Saudi women can finally drive and movie theaters have re-opened. Unfortunately positive change is being threatened by the gruesome murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Tom Friedman forgot that Saudi royals are ruthless thugs who don't hesitate to murder anyone who dares criticize them.
Some things never change.
7
At the time that I am writing this American planes are helping Saudi Arabia bombing Yemen.
Maybe it is time that we stop trusting MbS's moral compass.
9
I'm very disappointed in you, Mr. Friedman for choosing this particular time to try to absolve yourself of any responsibility for giving credibility to this brash, reckless ruler when finally this story is getting all the traction it so rightfully deserves. This is not about you Mr. Friedman. It's about protecting and honoring the basic human rights that Jamal Khoshoggi and all the other journalists, who are snubbed and exiled, deserve. You of all people with such a big reputation in journalistic circles, should have been more patient in picking your time to dissociate yourself from the crown prince.
2
Once again you paint a false dichotomy that we are forced to choose between MBS and the old previous Saudi regime. You write like bitter lake was an agreement for all of time. "destabilize the country." you fear, I look at Yemen and Syria and see destabilisation so dont mind me if i dont exactly shed tears at the fall of Saudi stability.
4
Despite the disastrous war in Yemen, ruthless palace intrigues to become Crown Prince and attempt to destabilize a fellow-Arab country (Qatar), Mr. Friedman bestowed glowing praise on MBS in his earlier (disturbing) editorial. While I'm glad Mr. Friedman has (finally!) disavowed MBS, many have paid with their lives, for the US adoration and adulation of this wannabe-dictator. And yet, Mr. Friedman makes the same old tired arguments, hoping for a benevolent dictator to miraculously emerge and drag this country into the modern age. Keep dreaming, Mr. Friedman.
2
Tip of the iceberg.
We can discuss Yemen another day... :/
2
Saudi Arabia is a failed state. To test this theory, how long would the Saudi regime last if the U.S. withheld funding, investment & support?
Mohammed bin Salman is not a reformer. That he allowed women to drive in Saudi Arabia (like in every other country in the world!) is simply window dressing by which people like Mr. Friedman can pretend that he is. To test this theory, why has he arrested & tortured the very women who fought for the right to drive?
Saudi Arabia is not the center of the Islamic world merely because the two holy cities are located within it. Countries come and go. Mecca & Medina had been controlled by the Hashemites, the Ottoman Empire, the Abbsasids & the Ummayads, In shear influence in the Islamic world, al-Azhar University in Egypt, Qum in Iran, Konya in Turkey, Pakistan, India & Indonesia have reached more people in more positive ways than Saudi Arabia has reached with its dirty money.
It looks more & more likely that Mohammed bin Salman was behind the murder of an American-based journalist who dared to live in the world of ideas & not the world of violence. Not to mention the suspicious murders of others in Saudi Arabia who criticized the "crown prince" nor to mention the butchery of an entire nation for no apparent reason (the Houthis are Yemenis, not Iranians), but the blood on Mohammed bis Salman's hand at the very least should disqualify him from any pretense of becoming king. Were he anyone else, he would face Saudi-style Islamic justice.
4
Trump cannot fix this by appointing an ambassador to Riyadh. I do not think it should be glossed over, swept under the rug. How did they think they could get away with it? With all the news this past week, all I could think about was Jamal Khashoggi, realizing he was going to be murdered at the embassy. Trump wants to give the Saudis a pass. I say no. They should be forced to confront it and have to deal with it as they may. It was evil. It was sick. I believe MBS responsible.
3
I respect Mr. Friedman's view but in this case he seems to be doing the physically impossible -- talking out of both sides of his mouth at once.
3
The world has been held together for the past 50 years or so by adherence to international norms that are now crumbling at an accelerating pace. It's scary that it isn't just the dictators of the world doing it either.
Sure there is Putin poisoning his enemies , China building fake islands, and this latest thing with MBS, but equally if not more concerning are the western democracies where both the right and left wing are trying to topple to the existing order because they are letting emotion drive their decision making and are having too much fun listening to their fired-up bases.
Yes, America and the world need change, but we can't do it Trump/MBS-style where we just blindly act and hope our lack of care and consideration are an asset and not a liability.
3
This was an act of individual terrorism against a respected journalist. If we are serious about stopping terrorism we should sanction all individuals and the Saudi government. That means we should stop selling them arms, regardless of the economic consequences. We need to get our priorities straight.
2
The solution? Make the Saudi Regime irrelevant via the embrace of oil independence (short term) and new technology. The Regime only survives because of money. Let them eat their oil.
4
Let's completely get rid of a carbon based energy economy to save the planet and to make Saudi Arabia irrelevant.
2
What Saudi reforms?
MBS allowed women to drive but jailed the women who lead the protest. There's no real progress. Just convenient window dressing.
6
Mr. Friedman allowing women to drive or opening a movie theater were two dog bones thrown at the West to give the illusion of reform. The press and business community fell for the illusion, the latter salivated over personal opportunity.
.
Where was the outrage of the UAE and Saudi Arabia to condemn and fight ISIS while it raped women and pillaged throughout the Middle East? The historical destruction robbed the world of history and was senseless. Why did the West fight those atrocities? I should think those barbaric actions and the stain it generated on Islam would have propelled them to insist on being the leaders on that fight.
The Prince was on a billion dollar spending spree the summer before he systematicaly manipulated and placed himself as heir. Arrested activists and journalists, beheaded 48 people this year, arrested and shook down opposition on a cash for freedom basis, cut diplomatic ties with Canada, embargo of Qutar and still Davos a in the Desert was on the calendar for the West.
There are many to blame for Mr. Khashoggi's disappearance and likely murder. Embracing someone who eliminated any opposition was foolish and created the monster Prince. Just like those who created the monsters we presently have in the administration and Congress. Money elevated them to their positions not statesmanship.
2
There is something infuriating about a discussion of “reforms” when it comes to Saudi Arabia and the “reforming” Prince. There are no reforms! They just slathered and butchered a human being because he criticized them. They have exported the violent extremist form of Islam that attacked our country on 9/11 and provided substantially all of the 9/11 terrorists.They are murdering defenseless humans in Yemen. They have not reformed! They have doubled down BUT they have spent millions on a superficial “charm” offensive that has “ charmed many in the media and the highest levels of government and society. Watching it has been appalling but of course we lesser mortals have no say in these things.
Trump won’t do any thing. Obama did nothing and Bush attacked Afghanistan and Iraq. The Saudis seem to own some of the “best” people. It’s a travesty. But the money is good and they won’t change.
3
How many times has Trump called the press the enemy of the people? MBS's delusion was that he thought he could get away with this because Trump wouldn't care. Trump is as complicit in this as any of the Saudis.
1
The is no need for obfuscation here. America's dilemma is the following: Support authoritarian regimes in the middle east so neocolonial Israel can continue to exist, or support democratically elected governments in the middle east, in which case sane people in Israel may just to go back to their own countries. Please don't spin it in such ridiculous ways.
2
A few months back, Canada's external affairs minister, Chrystia Freeland, tweeted, that the Saudis should respect human rights. The reaction, Canada's ambassador was kicked out, their own recalled, airline flights to Canada were cancelled, future trade terminated, students recalled. The response from other countries, not a peep, Canada was on it's own. The message was clear, to every country, Saudi Arabia would not tolerate any criticism from anyone. The message to Saudi Arabia, they were home free, with an ally like Trump's USA, they could do what they wanted. So now we have the Khashoggi affair, the Saudis, "bin Salman," was sending another message, we'll get you, where ever you are, but, they got sloppy and now the cover up. With Trump doing his best, rogue killers, lol, to protect his own personal interest, no doubt, with the Saudis, the world awaits the outcome of this sordid mess. Forget a honest outcome, just another whitewash. With apologies to Alan Paton, i'll borrow the title of his book about South Africa and apply it to the USA, "Cry, the Beloved Country."
5
Thanks for going long on this column, in both words and ideas. Perhaps Islam should also go long. To think that real reform will come from a seriously-uthoritarian regime “supposedly” wth absolute control also of a major religion is ludicrous. Christianity reformed itself not in Rome but in German lands. Islam must democratize.
Madeleine Albright, US Ambassador to the UN, once lamented that 500,000 dead Iraqi children was an acceptable price to reform the middle east. Is turning a blind eye to the killing of Mr. Khashoggi also an acceptable price to reform Saudi Arabia?
Mr. Khashoggi has dusted his image for western consumption. Old photos on the internet show him carrying a machine gun and standing with the Taliban!
Nearly 10,000 American lives were ended due to the venoum propagated by the house of Saud. (9-11, Afganistan, Iraq, Khobar, Lebanon... etc). Some Saudi nationals will also have to pay a price in the cleanup.
To all those criticizing the blind eye, How many additional American lives are you willing to sacrifice for Mr. Khashoggi? And that is not a defense of MBS or evil empire!
1
Mr. Friedman,
Have you even read Jamal's columns for the Washington Post?
The reforms, women drivers and movie theaters are the only reforms. The woman who lobbied for years to drive was denounced as a traitor. Long time reformers have been denounced as traitors and have disappeared.
Jamal has written in detail how the so-called reforms are being used to stifle all dissent and have actually been used to strengthen the radical relgionists.
Dissent is not tolerated.
Beheading and crucifixions are common event in Saudi Arabia.
Both Al-Queda and Isis have always been funded by Saudi extremists.
Your continued spruiking of these autocratic thugs undermines any credibility you may have once possessed.
We do not need the Saudis, they need the USA. Probably the one true thing that Trump has said this year is that they would not last without USA support.
They need American Defense weapons. Even they can't afford to to scrap their American weapons and import whole new, aircraft, weapons, munitions and parts.
Their so-called "Oil Weapon" can be taken from them relatively easily if they try to cripple the world economy.
Mr. Friedman, Please read Jamal's columns in the Washington Post.
I would suggest the same to my fellow readers.
Let's listen to Jamal, rather than Mr. Friedman's pathetic attempts to justify his own naivete.
5
The so called reforms are window dressing to get wishful thinkers like Friedman to plead with us to leave the Saudi murderers alone. While we are arguing with Trump over the obvious hit MBS ordered on the WP columnist, the genocide continues in Yemen, Saudis continue to bankroll terrorists worldwide and human rights are abused daily in the kingdom.
The Saudis are not our friends. Wake up.
3
There are no Saudi reforms. There has been for the five years of its genocidal war against Yemen a concerted public relations campaign run from Washington by Qorvis Communications. This has provided Western governments with a fig-leaf excuse to ignore both the terrorist affiliations and abysmal human rights record of the Saudi government. The NYTimes has not been much of a counter-weight to that campaign. But a few privileged female members of the decadent Saudi elite driving cars does not constitute reform.
We should have drawn the necessary conclusions of 9/11 and closed their embassy.
1
Just the highlights, first, the indiscriminate killing in Yemen, second the prison/shakedown of rich people and then, the cutting to pieces of a journalist, in Turkey. Mr Friedman wants to argue that MBS is the best we can do. I am afraid to ask, what could be the worst? I known, I know, try to cover it all up, like it is not a big deal.
1
Mr. Friedman has expressed a very tepid indignation about "M.B.S'" likely murder of a journalist (who he has also described as a friend) and and complete indifference toward's his starvation of 14 million people in Yemen (which was not even mentioned in the article). What Mr. Friedman is truly worried about, is endangering the "reforms" in a country where beheading is still the most common form of execution for crimes such as homosexuality and atheism.
The "reform process" he is clinging to, would at best, turn SA into another autocratic, if somewhat secular, Arab state, not unlike Iraq under Saddam (where women also already had the right to drive for decades); a nation's whose destruction he once cheered for in this very paper.
1
Now Trump appears to be trying to cover up a murder that obviously involved the Saudis. The murder took place in the Saudi embassy and several members of the hit squad were known associates of the Crown Prince. Trump and the Saudis are using the same talking points about how the murder was perpetrated by "rogue" operatives. According to reports, that would be some 15 rogue operatives armed with a bone saw. Trump is devoid of any moral compass.
1
As the sands flow through the hour glass, rarely do "opinions" age well.
1
It might be best to flash back to the Bush-Saudi relationship and the eventual: 9/11 attack-- war in Iraq -- the war in Afghanistan -- and the resultant stalemate on the US in the Middle East .. Prince Bandar cannot enlighten from the beyond. Tangles -- all oil related -- with the Saudi principals
have a history - complex and pointed - that often violated their standards -- which we must remind -- are radically different than those of the West... If the Saudi Royal House is accosted in any way -- the usual response is not a pretty one.. Best we mind our own "business" in this matter...
MBS sold fraudulent goods of reforms. and West, including you jumped on it. It is no different than what Trump is selling for the last 18 months. your excuses are no different than what Republicans do Trump. I cannot understand why?
I'll leave the analysis of Middle East foreign policy vis a vis Saudi Arabia and the US - and the Crown Prince's culpability in Jamal Khashoggi's murder - to those better equipped to digest the totality of these events.
My concern - and I come forward with this with regret but without reservation - is with Mr. Friedman and how this column results in a diminution of his credibility.
Mr. Friedman's columns have been invaluable in distilling the complexities of the region; they have attempted to provide clarity and context to cultures quite distinct from our own while informing and respecting the curiosity and intelligence of his readership.
But the Crown Prince's recent behavior has undermined Mr. Friedman's clearly articulated confidence and optimism in the man; the tone of today's column should have been that of a mea culpa rather than that of a revisionist political science lesson.
3
I'm surprised that Mr Friedman did not name as a solution the building of an electric Model T. A popular, reliable, electric car/truck base available just cheaper than petrol/diesel alternatives would do a lot to reduce the malign global influence of Saudi Arabia. Can you build it America? I know you can build expensive electric cars. Can you build us a cheap one?
Reading Ziauddin Sardar's excellent history of Mecca does not make me think that peaceful political evolution is coming anytime soon in this part of the world. The only way out for America is to turn the corner with new technology and quietly walk away.
172
@James
Electric cars don't solve the problem. You only change the underlying dynamics of the relationship. Electric car batteries require a massive amount of rare minerals. The United States does not possess most of the minerals in abundance. Batteries therefore require international supply chains. You'll obviously find the cheapest materials in the most abusive nations. You're simply trading the evil of oil for the evil of something else.
1
@James
Except that those controlling today's technology cannot and will not let go of their positions of money, power, and influence.
We used to embrace new technology and that meant rendering present technologies obsolete. Today we're being held hostage to the perpetuity of internal combustion engines.
@Andy
RE: "The United States does not possess most of the minerals in abundance."
The US has an abundance of rare earth minerals just waiting to be mined. The only reason we don't mine them is because it is cheaper to let China mine them because they have very cheap labor and they just dump the mining waste wherever they want (there's no EPA). We can definitely afford to mine these minerals without the damage to the environment, but we choose not to because it would require a directive from the federal government rather than a pure profit motive.
A world run according to profit motive alone will kill itself.
When we will look back in 10 years time, will this episode be judged a crossroad towards moral and values-based leadership or one where killing your opponents is blessed as acceptable behavior. I am afraid with Trump's clumsy attempt to eplain the killing as "rogue operation" we are heading towards the latter route. Killing opponents will become tolerable. This potential deviation from foundational values of our nation is a much bigger issue than the modernization of Arabic Islamism.
2
The stark horror of what appears to be a planned, deliberate, cynical murder cannot be avoided. Whatever personal animus drove the prime mover, the murder was also an attack on the press and on American values. There is a dilemma, surely, because Trump has personalized international relations. This problem calls for all the skills of veteran diplomats. We don't have any in the Trump administration. Pompeo reminded me of an older lad held back for his Confirmation: but to his delight, the bishop has now confirmed him, there, in his Confirmation suit, he smiles and awaits his rewards: candy today! Trump takes on a different role: the Sarah Sanders of the Saudi regime, lying dutifully for the master.
2
Horrible as this alleged crime is, our reaction to it raises a fundamental question for me. It involves a Saudi journalist who was probably murdered by representatives of the Saudi government in a Saudi consulate located in Turkey.
How did it become the responsibility of the US to take the lead in doing something about it?
"...but a lot of young Saudis thought it was real, and wanted more of it." That's the eerie similarity to Trump - MAGA. These frauds recognize and distill the sources of social unrest, say things to convince the most vulnerable to illusion and propaganda that they, and they alone, can and will fix it all, and in the end it is exposed as nothing more than self-serving baloney, and highly destructive at that. No, Mr. Friedman, you can't fix stupid, neither here at home nor abroad.
1
How about starting by doing everything we can to make Saudi Arabia less important to us and to the rest of the world, by making petroleum less vital to modernity. And by cancelling arms sales. And by clearly and definitively working with our allies to stop the export of ultra-conservative politicized Islam to Sunni Muslim communities, anywhere. Our policy towards Saudi Arabia is contradictory and dangerous. This must change. The warning lights are blinking.
5
The Saudi's exporting of virulent strains of Wahabi Islam throughout the world through its adrassas is a major threat to global peace and democracy in the long term. This is but one of the threats posed by Saudi Arabia. The US has turned a blind eye to these threats for the sake of oil. Energy independence is near at hand for the Western democracies if the US can rid itself of global warming deniers who refuse to sell their oil and coal stocks. Why the US does not seize the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone is beyond me.
1
"All I know is that we have to find some way to censure M.B.S. for this — without seeming to attack the whole Saudi people and destabilize the country. And we have to make sure that the social/religious reform process in Saudi Arabia proceeds — whoever is in charge there. Because that is a vital U.S. interest."
Not this administration; much too deep, way too complicated, no path to quickly monetize for themselves any possible solution.
1
The whole premise of the article seems to be that we should tolerate MBS because we need him. Why do we need him and the Saudis more than they need us? The hope that reform of Islam is going to come from Saudi Arabia through MBS is a chimera. The recent "reforms" are purely cosmetic. Other Muslim countries allow women to drive and to go to movie theaters. Saudi Arabia risked becoming irrelevant was merely catching up.
The House of Saud hangs on to power by keeping the Wahabists happy - exactly the same relationship the Republicans and the Christian Right have in this country. Reform of Islam is only possible after (not before) a sizable segment of the population is educated and has access to different new media content than they have now.
2
Islam does not need reform Mr. Friedman, Islam has been around for 1500 years and for centuries, Muslims led the world in medicine, chemistry and the likes. It is not true that Muslims in Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey or even Egypt look to the Saud family or the Saudi scholars for inspiration or interpretation of Islam. No one there ever banned women from driving and some countries in the Muslim world had Muslim Women leaders long before the west. Having lived in tiny Lebanon thirty years ago or performing pilgrimages to the palaces in Riyadh on yearly basis does NOT make you an expert on Islam and it shows. The crisis Saudi Arabia faces is due to the Saud Family and their ossified clerics and will only be solved by political freedom and not by MBS wearing western close and drinking Starbucks in NYC. It is a tragedy that the same so called experts who led us to the disasters in Iraq Afghanistan and the middle East (Dennis Ross is single handedly responsible for more failures than the rest of the state department diplomats combined) are not showing any humility and continue to offer advices colored by their allegiances and special interest. ENOUGH!
3
Just for comparison.Putin reaches into England and has a former spy poisoned .The spy lingers near death for weeks.Great Britain expresses outrage and mobilizes its allies to express the same anger .Their intelligence agency works to reconstruct the whole incident even down to the unusual drug used.They get the answers. A US based correspondent for the Washington Post goes into the Saudi Embassy and never comes out alive.The Turkish government explains his gruesome murder there.The Trump administration is not outraged, does not mobilize our allies and far from investigating it collides with the Saudi government to fashion a coverup.The British are better protected than we are!
2
The Saudis had their chance and, let's face it, they blew it! The 20th century thirst for oil enabled the Thingdom to pursue what it previously could only dream of. With this extraordinary wealth, they could have been a benefactor to the world. Instead, they chose to make faustian deals to perpetuate their political power, letting other nations suffer the consequences. So now we are supposed to give them another pass because they are saying they want to change their religious tune? And the price of that - more proxy wars and dead journalists. As you have pointed out, the United States has also been complicit, believing that it could only afford a smart choice rather than a right one. What both parties failed to understand is that Iran 1979 doesn't happen without Iran 1953 compliments of the CIA Operation Ajax that overthrew the legitimate government of that country. We created the Shah and are now paying the price for 25 years of brutal suppression in return for our support and cheap Iranian oil. Another faustian deal gone bust. Tell that to the "Make America Great Again" crowd! The answer is hiding in plain sight: the right thing to do is also the smart thing and that is to hold the Thingdom accountable and ostracize them. For too many of us, they are already a failed state.
1
Tom, stop calling him MBS, that's his own branding, which you've already bought into too much of. First step in walking back the appearance of you having been purchased for access is to start calling him by his name.
1
I have only one thought - you cannot use terms ''just'', or ''only'' when trying to section off the acts of a dictator. They are the sole bearer responsible for all acts done in their name, and presumably for their state.
There are many ''intellectual'' arguments making up excuses for human rights abusers, but the bottom line remains - they are still human rights abusers. Certainly taking away someone's life is the ultimate human rights abuse.
Human rights are not a zero sum game - they are respected or they are not. All those that do not respect them should be shunned, or even brought to justice.
DMS should be taken into custody at the first opportunity and brought before the court at the The Hague. Anything short of that are actions of complicity in torture, killings and genocide. (Yemen)
Any columnists that try to make up excuses should be fired.
Until we have a president who doesn’t see $ $ everywhere he looks America will turn blinded eyes. But that’s not what Americans do it’s what the republicans do remember it’s party b4 country for them and they are running the country. So what happens is a reflection of the Republican Party the party of family values and fiscal responsibility. Good luck
Saudi Arabia's horrific actions, past and present, provide a powerful incentive to launch a full court press for alternative energy.
A clean-energy future, not tied to ruthless Middle Eastern regimes, seems so close and yet so far from our grasp.
I'd ask "what's it going to take?" but unfortunately I think I know the answer. And it isn't pretty.
2
We never learn. Our health, education and infrastructure money were wasted in the sands of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan. All we have to show for generations of meddling in the Middle East is a beleaguered ally surrounded by millions of people who simply hate us. We should close our bases, furl our flags, save our money and come home.
3
Saudi 'reforms' are the Saudi's business. How the U.S. reacts to both the reforms and to its murdering savagery is our business. We are telling the world who WE are by how we react.
1
Sorry, Tom, but the knowledge and skills required to address this terrible act will not be found in this administration. What we now are seeing from the administration is a botched cover up for a botched murder.
3
this is really Trump"s dilemma.
Mr. Friedman, let be clear. MBS does not have a reform agenda. At the most he has done some what we call in french réformette which means cosmetic changes. And as we have seen again this is still the same repressive regime in action. And I will conclude with the following quotation:"Black Daesh, white Daesh. The former(ISIS) slits throats, kills, stones, cuts of hands, destroys humanity's common heritage and despises archeology, women and non-Muslims. The latter (Saudi Arabia) is better dress and neater but does the same things." Kamel Daoud, Saudi Arabia, an ISIS That Has Made It. (NY Times, Nov. 20, 2015) I hope that Mr. Friedman and the apologist of M.B.S., now are seeing the real one.
5
Khashoggi's murder is upsetting and scary, but look at how many Russians have been pursued and killed, probably with their own government's sanction. And I'm sure Julian Assange barely escaped with his life. But it seems like the problem with this paper is that we are too obsessed with individuals - Khashoggi, Kavanaugh, Ford - and don't seem to care as much about all the millions we massacred in Afghanistan and Iraq, all the people starving and dying in Yemen, the horrors of the war in Syria, the genocide of the Rohinghya - there are a much smaller number of articles on these major crises. It's like most journalists can't grasp a mass problem, but only the drama of an individual person. That is much more frightening to me than the murder of Khashoggi. It seems in our sick limited minds to outweigh the deaths of millions of innocents. We shriek about one murder, but what about mass murder? Why don't you publish a dozen articles a day about that?
3
God Bless Robert Mueller.
2
Medical journals have tried to enforce a policy requiring from scientists full disclosure. It's time for media to require similar disclosures from OpEd people. Perhaps, Friedman might disclose how he has benefited from his Saudi connections over many years. "Saudi Reforms"....are you still kidding? Some women getting access to drivers licenses? While MBS sanctioned ISIL-style decapitations have escalated, assaults on journalists, human rights activists, reports of torture, arbitrary detention have increased! A famine, crimes against humanity, possibly an emerging famine on a scale that constitutes genocide due to the MBS/Saudi regime's actions in Yemen (near zero reporting from the NYT - what's going on)? What Saudi reforms?
7
It would be greatly refreshing if, before getting into your column, you first admit that you were wrong about MBS. Please don’t approach this like our republican friends and endlessly repeat falsehoods then give a token statement for future convenient referencing. For all of your Middle East experience, you still don’t understand that all Arab leaders say what is expedient. You are supposed to dissect these statements, not be a gullible mouthpiece.
7
Have you ever seen in your life such a wide smile and a friendly hug of main suspect for the photo op by the detective investigating a gruesome murder and dismembering of a missing journalist?
1
So that's your excuse for backing MBS--Islamic reform, not Davos in the Desert or the Vision fund or all the money to be made?
I imagine his open hostility to Iran was another, if not the most important thing on your mind.
You, like Ross Douthat, Brett Stephens and David Brooks, are constantly backing-and-filling trying to defend the indefensible.
8
@betty durso: Right on, Betty! I have written similar comments recently, but of course they have been suppressed.
1
There are two elephants missing from this discussion of MBS. (1) the Medieval crushing of Yemen and its people (recent attacks make the Saudi strategy clear: kill more and more people, hit civilian targets), and (2) that MBS (along with his new pal Netanyahu) is urging Trump to start bombing Iran. Talk about stupid. You hid this omission under "a strong anti-Iran and anti-Qatar tenor." If attacked, the Iranians will close the Straights of Hormuz, probably indefinitely. That is what MBS will bring.
82
@John
Good post.
There's also a third elephant missing from the discussion: the arresting and jailing of dissidents.
Yemen is the biggest elephant, however. The assassination of Kashoggi will undoubtedly intimidate other dissidents, but the loss of one life pales in comparison to the loss of tens of thousands of lives in Yemen.
@John
The Iranians may block the Strait of Hormuz - for about a week, maybe a month. The effect would be economically disastrous for the US snd give us what we've wanted for years - an excuse to force regime change in Tehran, with SA and Israel as allies. The feckless EU would probably go along as well.
As more and more articles are published in the Magazine format, it’s time for the NYT tech department to enable larger fonts options for these articles for the subscription mobile apps.
This is not a dilemma. Under any normal situation, the US holds too many cards these days for Saudi Arabia to do much if the US decides to hold that theocratic police state responsible, should things turn out as we fear.
We can juggle these interests easily. The problem is we have an administration who can't.
That is not a dilemma. It is yet another international embarrassment that Trump brings on us. See, he cuts deals and side deals that are what really matters to him. All that graft makes our President shackled by his corruption, and make our government unable to0 act as it normally would.
Remember, Trump is not the master of the art of the deal. He is the master of the art of debt. And the last 20+ years of his family's life has been about getting in debt with shadier and shadier characters.
Trump is the problem. Get a competent Republican or Democrat in that office, and this whole situation, while critical, is not all that complicated.
It is only complicated because the US has a president that primarily views his office as a perch to make a whole lot of avenues for future private gain, for him and his. That Trump hotel in Riyadh ain't gonna build itself, people!
209
@pjc is naive to think this is simple. Nobody who isn't close to the situation should pretend to have ANY real sense as to how far, hard and fast MBS can be pushed. There are plenty of people who would love to see him dead, and the same way Trump let MBS feel he could kill Khashoggi (who wasn't the sweetheart lover of democracy and freedom people portray him as) there are people who would feel they could get rid of MBS, and end the little movement he is making, if he is pushed too hard.
Trump is the biggest problem, but far from the only problem. Obama may have thought that it would be easy to "juggle these interests" but he ended up looking pretty weak. I have a lot of respect for Obama, but he was viewed as weak by most rulers in the Middle East (e.g., Netanyahu), and weakness is something people in that part of the world can smell from a 1,000 miles away. If an American politician screws up they get voted out of office. If you screw up over there you often end up dead.
@pjc
History did not begin with the election of Donald Trump. The 1973 oil embargo. Constant references to "our friends in Saudi Arabia." Bush kissing the king and holding his hand. Obama bowing to him.
Blame Trump all you want. He has done nothing to change Saudi behavior. But this goes a lot deeper and has been going on a lot longer than Trump.
@pjc
Absolutely on the nose. The beginning of a sensible response is not for Trump to appoint a much-needed ambassador to the Saudis (one that would no doubt serve Trump's purely self-serving financial empire), it is to remove Trump himself from any position of governmental influence.
"So, once again, what do we do? I don’t have a simple answer. "
How about starting with this. Use this atrocity:
1. To launch a strategic sustainable energy program in the US that moves our economy off oil.
2. Begin normal diplomatic relations with Iran.
3. End the Saudi war on Yemen and ease the humanitarian crises the Saudi's have started.
4. Send the Saudi's a bill for all of our security post 9/11since 19 of their citizens were involved in that attack.
5. Call for the end of public beheadings in Saudi Arabia as soon as MBS is beheaded for his role in killing an innocent American journalist.
27
US foreign policy is too often driven by two competing, sometimes intertwining compulsions: to expand our military/economic dominance and to instill US values, sometimes contradictory ones, in all corners of the world.
There is arrogance, greed, and cynicism in these compulsions, but idealism, good intentions and altruism, too.
But they inevitably end up leaving the US in a quagmire of its own making, unable to escape the contradictions of its competing impulses as it embroils itself in conflict after conflict that it can neither fully resolve or escape with its objectives achieved. Inevitably it chooses to prop up some dictatorial regime, in vain hopes of reforming it.
So here we are, greed for the billions we can make in economic and military association with M.B.S. competing with our zeal to push reforms in his country; and suckered by him into promoting his brutal dictatorial impulses, while doing precious little else to advance our own security, bring lasting reform to his country, or peace to the Middle East.
The US is at its best and at its most secure when it lives up to its own ideals of democracy, self-determination, human rights and decency, leading by principle and example, and at its worst and most insecure when it barges, unbidden, into the politics of other states, economically or militarily.
It is time to better manage our compulsions and curtail our forays into regime meddling, even if it means forgoing some of those billions in arms sales.
86
Well said, but call me cynical, what you propose will never take place.
This would have had more authority had Mr Friedman not praised MBS in these pages recently. True, there were caveats, but letting women drive while arresting women promoting that cause is hardly praiseworthy. Are those women still imprisoned?
I don’t have any easy answers, such as withholding arms sales, since, like any bargain with the devil, anything we do will have negative consequences. With a president who only cares about those sales, moral authority isn’t even on his radar. Now that MBS has displayed his dark side to the world, do we just brush this under the rug and wait for it to go away? Probably.
6
The reason for Thomas Friedman's dilemma and Trump's refusal to stand up to MBS is Israel.
As long as Jared Kushner, Sheldon Adelson, and pro Israeli donors have Donald Trump in their pockets, MBS will be allowed to carry on and will never be ousted for murdering Khashoggi.
None of these denials by the Trump administration officials are intended to protect Saudi Arabia or MBS from sanctions or cancellation of military weapons sales.
Kushner, Trump, Pompeo, Bolton, etc. have no interest in the reforms taken by MBS regarding women or religious extremism.
The only pledge made by MBS that matters to them is his pledge to support Israel.
15
A tribal country like Saudi Arabia is governed according to the Tribal Laws and Tenets. There was a wisdom behind the Saudi Line of Succession to the Throne. Unlike other Monarchies of the World, the Succession in Saudi Arabia was not hereditary, rather the next in line was always the King's brother. That meant that the king was always succeeded by a mature and experienced person rather than a young inexperienced brat! That Law was changed only a couple of years ago when King Salman stripped his brother of his title of the Crown Prince and appointed his son, Mohammad Bin Salman, as his Crown Prince. In Tribal tradditons, age and maturity garner respect from the members of the Tribe. Such a respect is not afforded the youth of the Tribe unless the young man displays such qualities that would warrant that respect. MBS, entered the scene by trying to acquire respect through raw force and power grab. He may be a young reformer but he does not have the experience and maturity that he needs in order to build consensus amongst the many factions in Saudi Arabia. he has been responsible for a series of rash and unthoughtful actions from the war in Yemen to the kidnap of the Lebanese Prime Minister, from isolating Qatar to locking horns with Iran and finally the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi. MBS is not only bad news for the United States, he is bad news for the whole Region. But Trump (Kushner) loves him and his money, some $800 million of it per day!!
7
When the King’s brother (now the King) dies, who succeeds him if he doesn’t have a brother?
Just curious.
Maybe explain a little more.
@Demolino The next senior brother. Remember that these people have numerous siblings ( 20 or 30) at different age levels, so there is never a shortage of brothers.
An interesting point to ponder, which hasn't been kicked around much in media articles, is:
Why, would Turkey, be interested in driving a wedge between the US and Saudi Arabia.
Possibly because Turkey and Iran are BFFs ?
Possibly, to deflect US attention away from Erdogan's draconian domestic "security" policies ?
Possibly, maybe get the sanctions lifted ?
Possibly, to put additional pressure on the Kurds ?
The fact is, they didn't have to go public with a story on Khashoggi.
So why did they ?
2
@Objectivist objectivist? more like apologist....two wrongs don't make a right. both parties could have partaken in sordid actions and have nefarious intents. that doesn't make what happened to Jamal Khashoggi any less tragic or less important.
2
Countries who spend the most on military in the name of keeping a country safe is IN DECLINE.
1
Another dilemma for America is what do we do with a President who is so personally financially dependent on Saudi and Russian money to fund his business enterprises.
Donald Trump's obvious deference to the Russians and now the Saudi's in the face election hacking (Russians) and now state sanctioned murder (Saudis) is due to just how dependent Trump is to these two to fund his fund his hotels and pay exorbitant prices for his apartments...his personal business interests, and has absolutely nothing to do with protecting US defense contracts.
Trump's real estate is heavily funded by the Saudis that Trump will never stand up to them, just like with Putin, MBS can count on Trump to protect him.
5
This reminds me of a time when the US had “vital interests” in Iran and embraced the Shah. How did that work out?
3
The best response to the Khashoggi butchery would be rapprochement with Iran, who has done nothing to warrant our hatred. We have put all our eggs in one Saudi basket; time to diversify. Iran could be a good ally; it is (mostly) democratic, well-educated, and far more modern than medieval Saudi Arabia. Please remember that the most horrors of Islam have come from the Sunni not Shiite side.
And yes, we should tell Israel to keep quiet. Their "fear" of Iran is tactical to keep Saudi Arabia and other Sunni states from supporting the Palestinians.
10
I got side-tracked with your sentence:
"I believe 9/11 was the worst thing to happen to America in my lifetime."
Not to diminish the suffering and loss of 9/11, but that "thing" was a mass murder of just some 3,000 (fewer than recently died from official neglect in Puerto Rico---an American colony). The Iraq War that you fervently advocated, probably killed a million civilians. And what Trump is doing to the environment could conceivably lead to billions of death.
Re-think what was the worst thing that happened to America in your lifetime.
10
Let’s put things in the right prospective.
The Gulf is 55% of know oil reserve Afghanistan mountains has Uranium deposits both regions is the reason why the West is interested in. Russia and non pro western ME governments Not allowed to have a big stake. 9/11 was plot to invade non pro western ME governments (Iraq&Afghanistan) and keeping the Russian hands off. At the same time 9/11 was and is a good plot to rally support from the Americans who don’t understand politics (US Vietnam was a loss , Russia won). Jamal Khashoggi is a plot by the Qataris and the Turkish to pressure The Saudis Stalled relationship with the two.
I can't think of anyone less qualified to manage this situation than Donald Trump, and that includes my dog and delusional uncle.
Trump will do what's good for Trump and make sure that the Saudi money keeps flowing to his business. The USA and the world will suffer and Trump will not care.
4
Who cares about halting SA's reforms? The United States, with an demented president and more than enough problems of its own, should look after its own estate. The train has long since left the station where the United States can take ANY moral high ground.
4
“Guys, just keep your oil pumps open, your prices low and don’t bother the Israelis too much, and you can do whatever you want out back — .”
Well yes, oil has been an important factor in the driving the close relationship between Saudi Arabia and the US, but weapons sales have been just as important. In the 1970s, McDonnell-Douglas competed for a government contract to sell fighter jets to the Saudis. I grew up in St. Louis, my dad worked for McDonnell-Douglas, and I remember how our parents and their friends worked and longed to win that competition. They did. The Saudis bought a full fleet of expensive, roaring, sophisticated F-15 Eagles from McDonnell-Douglas. The company celebrated. And profited.
Remember when the phrase “military-industrial complex” was commonly used to name a danger, a threat, inside the US? Well, the military-industrial complex is with us still, and it is quietly acting as a key player in our politics and America’s dealings with the Middle East — both Israel and Saudi Arabia.
132
@Deborah
Despite all the weaponry they purchased, the Saudis still can't refuel their own planes in the air.
Our engagement in the Middle East has been little more than an abysmal failure. Yes, it kept the oil flowing... and now we are paying the price. It's time for a total, outside the box rethink of what we are doing in the region and why, and what alternatives exist that can defend the Western World against jihadism without requiring continual military intervention in the region -- which isn't working. Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Israel... there is nowhere our policies are achieving the goals we've set for them. Not even close. We should always be ready to help, but we can't solve their problems for them, and our over-reliance on the military has been a disaster.
I'm not smart enough to know what to do, but to keep doing the same thing when it doesn't work, at such cost, is insane.
1
Mr. Friedman, I respect you highly as a journalist and believe you are sincere in wanting reform in Saudi Arabia, but sorry, I don't believe it will be coming from Mohammed bin Salman.
Yes, he's allowed women to drive and re-opened some movie theaters. However, that is more to have the appearance of reform than anything else. Below the window dressing, he is a ruthless autocrat who will tolerate no criticism, and stop at nothing to crush those who oppose him.
Some may say, why bother with Jamal Khashoggi? It was ordered as a warning. The act, and the brutal manner in which it was carried out, was meant to send shivers through others who might have less than words of praise for Mohammed bin Salman.
Is it surprising that he would have a journalist hacked to death after locking up hundreds of Saudi royals, officials, and businessmen in a hotel for months on the pretense of fighting corruption?
And let's not forget the hand he's had in one of the worst humanitarian crises in the 21 Century, the travesty now going on in Yemen so the crown prince can settle his score with Iran.
A reformer? I think not.
6
What reforms are you talking about. By allowing a few women to drive and letting people see movies, is not reform. All MBS is doing is minor whitewash, while he is consolidating power behind the throne.
The least worst solution is to not let any country become a failed state. The issues are never contained within any border. Yes, leadership must be progressive and the least corrupt possible. Demand for arms, oil, and more money are not going away. It DOES matter who runs the country, the impact is on the world.
1
Climate change is the worst thing to happen in your lifetime, and mine.
If we move more to solar and other renewable forms of energy, we can cut the Saudis' source of wealth while taking action to preserve the planet.
2
The murder of Khashoggi was horrifying and evil. Period, full stop. No, nobody believes the subsequent cover-up or that the Turks are well-intentioned here (and in Turkey's case, talk about a glass house...).
But the larger, geopolitical picture cannot be forgotten, and it's a shame Friedman neglected to really address that. Saudi Arabia is one of the pillars, along with the U.S. and Israel, in facing the encroaching Iranian threat, itself allied with Syria, Hezbollah and of course Russia. The Saudi war in Yemen, being carried out indiscriminately and with great cost to innocents (something it has in common with Russia/Iran in Syria), is its understandable response to Iran's unyielding move towards complete regional hegemony.
(Open parentheses: That unabated Iranian move towards domination of the Middle East these past couple of years, coupled with its growing brazenness in trying to achieve its stated genocidal goals, is itself a stinging riposte to those claiming the Iranian nuclear deal was in any way a success. But, another day.)
The ongoing war between Shiites and Sunnis, fought in the foreground of the war of (radical?) Islam against Israel, and, well, against America and everyone else too, is the broader picture that must be continually examined and kept in mind.
I do not understand why Saudi Arabia is a better place than Iran. Is it because Iran has shouted death to the US and SA has not, even though SA was the source of the 9/11 attacks? I’m not buying Friedman’s argument that SA is going to be the source of Islamic reform. Perhaps it’s time for an honest discussion of just why we need to keep Iran on such a black list while Trump becomes best friends with Kim in Korea. Sure Iran and SA are waging a proxy war in Yemen and Iran. Yes, Iran is a bigger threat to Israel at least on the surface, but SA is a hotbed of extremism hiding beneath a blanket of wealth.
9
$2 trillion dollars. dumped into a rathole. Combatting Islamic extremism. Is that what our troops, our citizens, are still doing in Afghanistan 17 years later? Has any assessment been made of whether this goal is even achievable? News flash: it isn't.
$2 trillion dollars might go a very long way towards addressing American extremism-specifically the completely predictable economic dislocation accelerated by pouring our treasure and our tax dollars (excuse me, our deficit dollars) into defense contractors instead of our vast domestic needs.
3
All we need to know about Mohammed Bin Salman is he is the leader of a family business called Saudi Arabia and as a new boy he has to establish his tyrant credentials. It was the same with Bashar Al-Assad, head of a family business called Syria.
They live in mortal fear of being overthrown. The enemy lurks inside and outside their kingdoms. It lurks in their imaginations and in reality. It includes their own family members, religious extremists, liberals and progressives and the disenchanted guy down the street. They trust no one. It's the price they pay for their tyranny. They are prepared to bring down their entire country to defend the family business. They don't want to end up like the Gaddafis. Creating a climate of fear through murder and torture, they believe, makes them stronger or keeps them alive for another day.
They issue signals of reform, but they are only proof that they view western democracies as naive and gullible and easily manipulated.
The best response is to arrest them all and drag them before the world court to pay for their crimes. Why do we indulge this fantasy that they are legitimate leaders?
Ah, but the U.S. government also fears the World Court.
4
Tom, I suggest you have been backing the wrong horse in the middle east for too long now.
Leave Saudi Arabia, sponsor of Islamic extremism and terrorism, and turn to a better potential partner to nurture - Iran.
Sure it has issues to address and there is a hard line faction in the country. But the fact It has stuck with its end of the nuclear deal despite the US withdraw says something about the moderating elements in Iran. Why turn your back on that?
I realize there is a virtual industry out there backed by Saudi Arabia, Israel and the US out to portray Iran as a key terrorist country, but I don't buy it. The 9-11 terrorists did not come from Iran.
Tom, I suggest you take a trip to Iran and come back and tell us something about your hopes for the country.
6
I read this twice because the first time through I couldn't believe what I'd read. Cut out the handwringing prolix about "a lot of young Saudis I spoke to," and "what do we do?" and "we have to find some way" and we can't "destabilize the country" and oh yes, wait, "one more complication," and what do we have? Mr. Friedman proposing America respond to this appalling and gruesome hit job, almost certainly ordered by M.B.S., by . . . is everyone sitting down? Appointing an ambassador to Saudi Arabia.
Come on. Couldn't he even flick at how we need to break our dependence on Saudi oil and go for the real jugular vein in all of this, which is the venal intertwining of the Saudi royal family and the Trump and Bush families?
Seriously, a C student in a beginning journalism class could have done better than this.
7
A verbose analysis, Mr. Friedman, with a weak and ineffectual conclusion. Why? Because a rogue and unethical nation (the United States) has little room for maneuvering when dealing with a rogue and unethical nation. And in each case, it's much more apt to indict the leader of the rogue nation rather than the nation itself.
That's where you seem stuck: How to insulate the Saudi people from the effects of proper and corrective action. Historic diplomatic precedent (disregarded and devalued by the Trump administration) should guide the U.S. response. And as for the investigation, there should be full cooperation on the part of the FBI, the CIA, and the State Department.
48
Donald Tump long has been recognized as possessing a craven affinity for autocrats, dictators, and strongmen. His bizarre response to Mohammed bin Salman's likely involvement with foul play and Jamal Khashoggi in a protected place of Saudi sanctuary on Turkish soil highlights another apparent motive for Trump's attraction to such sinister characters. He actually is afraid of them. Just as with Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-Un, he fears those whom he perceives as potentially wielding some mysterious force over him which could damage the unstable, manufactured image that he is compelled to project of himself.
1
America's dilemma started long ago and yet it was only yesterday. The dilemma before the Trump Administration is not censuring M.B.S. while not halting Saudi reforms. Rather it is censuring M.B.S. while not losing a military sale and keeping Saudi pressure to back up American pressure on Iran. It is keeping a Trump and Kushner close-(financial) relationship with M.B.S. while presenting the face of America as outraged over the murder of Mr. Khashoggi.
America's dilemma began with realpolitik diplomacy; it began with transactional diplomacy. America's dilemma is not how the rest of the world behaves, but how we have behaved and continue to behave. Nixon saw the world as a game to win and Trump sees the world as his to win. For them to win, morality must lose.
Thus, Trump is not concerned about the horrific murder of Mr. Khashoggi, he is concerned about how to pretend concern, how to present to the world a fake outrage against Saudi Arabia, while benefiting from his relationship with M.B.S.
We don't need to wait for Saudi Arabia to curtail its religious fanaticism, we need to find a moral compass and follow it instead of making deals with the devil.
We - the US - need better despotic rulers in our allies' and friends' countries: Philippines, North Korea, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Syria? Maybe someone like Saddam Hussein, who murdered his own people, started inane wars with his neighbors (Iran, Kuwait), but ran a pretty tight ship and didn't present too many problems for the Land of the Free and the Brave might fit the bill.
See, as a reformer - religious, moral, ethical - MBS didn't get off to such a good start: sequestering his rich and influential family and friends from the old regime, and then torturing them and shaking them down for billions of riyals, or Euros, or dollars, so he could rush up to provincial France and buy a 500 million dollar chateau - which may be a nicer place to hang out with all your money than Mecca - was not much of a Wahhabi-style reform movement. It was more like a King Farouk - comic books, pornography, eat 600 oysters a week - type of reform movement.
But how is MBS' behavior and philosophy intrinsically different from Mr. Trump's in that our president advances the possibility of his shooting an innocent bystander on Park Avenue with complete impunity and zero consequences?
1
Dear Thomas, I am a little concerned about the number 15 (Saudis) . It seems to me it was used on purpose so people will link Khashoggi's case to what happened on 911. I hope it is not the same 15, since those were dead and can't come back to Istanbul. As you know Thomas, but don't say, Saudi Arabia was cleared by US investigators from any involvement in 911, plus you know also where the master-mind of 911 was living prior to 911 and where he did the planning. Your claim of Saudi Arabian govt involvement or prior knowledge of the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi is unfounded and not supported by evidence in your article. I don't need to remind you that Jihadism was the creation of the US, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan and now you are blaming it on Saudi only though you know well who are the other two. My personal opinion is that my country should not have put all its eggs in one basket for the last 80 years.
2
Reason demands that the Saudi Crown Prince pay the appropriate price for orchestrating a grisly murder of an honest journalist.
Morality demands that the Crown Prince and his murderous crew face the same penalty which Saudi Arabia would be expected to impose on any of its citizens for the same crime: execution.
The fact that it would be easier for Americans to urge giving Mohammed bin Salman a far less severe punishment or none, as Thomas Friedman seems to suggest, does not justify America becoming complicit in the crime.
If there are more evil men in Saudi, without the patina of modernity, lying in wait and harboring medieval plans for violence against anyone in the world who is not a fanatical Salafi Sunni Muslim, we will have to oppose them. We may even need to wage war against them, if they persist.
America, at least, will not lose its moral compass if we seek the rule of law. There should be no more cozying up to murderous tyrants or propping them up in the Middle East or anywhere else under the misguided name of nation-shaping or nation-building.
By smoothing things over for the Prince, we will lose any moral leadership in the world not already frittered away by Donald Trump. And, that loss will certainly cost American lives in the future.
Forget the arms sales. Selling high-tech offensive weapons to Saudi Arabia is like giving a Lamborghini to a 16-year-old delinquent on drugs.
1
MBS, apparently through is own doing, is in an untenable, no-win situation.
If he admits complicity in the death of Khashoggi, he risks his reputation as a reformer. If he goes further and apologizes abjectly while punishing the perps "the Saudi way," as in beheading, he is toast and anathema to western sensibilities. If he denies involvement altogether, he will be radioactive and completely lacking in credibility.
America should not want and does not need an unstable Saudi Arabia. We already have an unstable American president, and we are watching that play out in slow-mo on the large, global screen.
Cue the popcorn and take your seats, ladies and gentlemen. The Saudi horror film is about to begin.
2
I keep reading how MBS is a great reformer leading SA into this century. OK, so he let women drive, allowed movies and stopped the religion police however he still kills people who speak out against him. I can only image if we know about this one how many are there we don't know about? SA and countries like it are not going to change because the people in power and money will not give it up, they just throw out some crumbs to keep everyone quiet.
5
Some of US never believed the MBS charm because he locked up his cousins to consolidate power. He made no moves toward an independent judiciary and a rule of law.
The United States ought to stop helping Saudi Arabia in Yemen and cancel any arms deals we have with that country. Do the right thing. It is not that difficult.
7
Driving a car? Being allowed to see a movie? You call this reform? Token reform above American values? No contest.
4
The life of one alleged intelligence operative/born-again journalist is not worth blowing up the entire Saudi modernization effort for.
MBS knew this and he, as time will undoubtedly tell, gambled the Americans would feel the same way. As we're already finding out, they do.
Mr. Kashoggi had a very curious, mysterious and shadowy background. The truth is he dabbled in a very dangerous game. He knew the risks he was taking and proceeded anyhow.
4
@JOHNNY CANUCK
Americans don't feel the same way. MBS gambled that Trump would feel the same way. That's not much of a gamble. That's like betting for the Globetrotters over the Generals. The question is whether the liberal world order which supports human rights will allow Trump to get his way. I'm hoping the answer is no. If I were gambling though, justice is probably a bad bet.
1
It does not matter whether the man was reckless or not. It does not matter whether the arms deals and alliances are more important than the life of any one person. What does matter is that the Crown Prince committed an atrocity without the flimsiest effort to hide it from the world. He had a man murdered to silence a dissenting voice and did so with calculated barbarism to sow fear. He revealed that he is paranoid, vicious, arrogant, and expected the world to let him do it without serious consequences. He is as much of an obstacle to peace and security as was Saddam Hussein and are the rulers of Iran and is Assad in Syria. We cannot afford to not see who is this man, he is not a reasonable leader.
This article is a reflection of what is wrong with the relationship between the USA and Saudi Arabia. The Saudis have for the last few years murdered thousands of people in The Yemen using armaments supplied by the USA (and other Western nations) and this is just fine as the victims are allies of the Iranians. Murder one "friend of the West" in Turkey and that makes the Saudis outlaws, maybe. Hypocrisy run wild.
2
when does our greed overcome the deliberate naivite of our leaders.we have kudos for the dictators and battle with our allies and friends.as we continue to move into a kleptocracy,to think that coddling the Saudi kleptomaniac will help this country is absurd,once again we are being played.Please remember,the saudis financed 9/11,continue to supply huge funds to anti semitic,anti western,anti christian madrases or otherwise schools that teach repression of all those not of islamic faith.
3
Dear Mr Friedman,
You were so wrong about MBS.Mess is a vast understatement.
Dear Saudi Arabia,
we are done with you. we will pull out and not buy any oil .
we will no longer do business. we will not sell you any weapons.
Dear Mr Trump,
It is wrong to support murderers.This is America and we are so much better than that. go back to Trump towers.
Dear America,
we need to vote,become energy self sufficient, tackle climate change and once again be a shining Democracy, light on a hill,
and example to the world.We will overcome.
3
This will be swept under the rug. As long as we continue to kill people we determine are terrorists with drones, we have no room to talk. This incident is like a lot of other subjects that have come to the surface lately-ugly but done to promote our latest fascination with more money and more power. The welfare of our nation’s economy and businesses is now more important than the welfare of people. We are expecting something different from the Saudis?
1
When someone pats you on the head with one hand and slugs you in the face with the other, what value is the pat on the head? If MBS orders imprisonments and deaths, promises arms purchases he does not make, are the limited reforms simply ephemeral window dressings that will halt when they are no longer needed to curry favor from his patron? American administrations have looked for some way to justify supporting unsupportable regimes, as long as it seemed they helped us out.
Censure? Appointm a new U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia? Friedman offers these measures without defining how this would be much different than the empty promise of Trump to “ get to the bottom of it.”
There are many ways to justify means/ends in this ugly case and Friedman tries to pin hopes on reforms instead of tough sanctions and ending arms sales to Saudi Arabia.
2
Mr. Friedman, I respect you highly as a journalist and believe you are sincere in wanting reform in Saudi Arabia, but sorry, I don't believe it will be coming from Mohammed bin Salman.
Yes, he's allowed women to drive and re-opened some movie theaters. However, real reform involves a
From the opening line in Mr. Friedman's Nov. 23, 2017 column, "Saudi Arabia’s Arab Spring, at Last":
"The most significant reform process underway anywhere in the Middle East today is in Saudi Arabia."
And later in the column: " [The Crown Prince's] biggest sin may be that he wants to go too fast." This was written after he'd imprisoned many potential opponents to confiscate their fortunes, detained the Lebanese prime minister and embarked on a war that's turned Yemen into a humanitarian disaster.
Here's the link to the column, for anyone interested:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/opinion/saudi-prince-mbs-arab-spring....
This column and the praise it showered on bin Salman came from the same "expert" who predicted 20 years ago that China would evolve into a more open society with an increasing respect for the rule of law.
Mr. Friedman, no one gets it all right. But when you err in this manner, you'll have a lot more credibility if you admit how badly you get it wrong.
7
It is crystal clear that the brutality of ISIS and al-Qaeda was spawned by the religious Wahhabism and Salafism exported and financed by the kingdom of Saudi Arabia petrodollars. They sell us oil and export terrorism. Meanwhile, the Iran regime which is no slouch in oppressing its own people is subject to American ire while not being nearly a threat to world peace as the Saudi regime. Saudi Arabia, its crown prince and his coterie of murderers should be sanctioned in proportion to their heinous crime. Their capacity to export Islamic terrorism must be sanctioned and contained without turning it into another Middle East failed state.
3
Tom Friedman makes excellent points.This outrageous assassination must be severely punished.Congress must ignore Trump's nonsensical, transactional rhetoric,and bring the perpetrators to justice. MBS is surely complicit in this heinous act. Since he arrogantly sees himself as " untouchable",the most effective means of punishment would be to sanction him personally, making it impossible for him to leave Saudi Arabia ,as we have done with the Russian and Chinese hackers. This would severely reduce his international gravitas. We could make the duration of sanctions open ended which would leave him in charge in the Kingdom, and with the possibility of the sanctions being lifted, deter him from future outrages.
1
Leaving aside the specifics of this situation aside, Mr Friedman points out a very basic conflict in any foreign policy:" How should America think about balancing our values and our interests".
Most of the time it is easy and the two line up, as in WW 2 and to some degree the Cold War. But now we have a more complex world order that does not line up in neat sides. We are stuck between moral outrage in situations where we have no compelling interest, and Interests that can offend our sense of morality, eg Saudi and Turkey. Trump seems to come down on the "Interests" side. While liberals disagree I don't think the liberal view is more military interventions where there is no real threat to us. How much can we work against our own interest to advance our values? It is a difficult, complex world especial in the Mid East
They may passionately hate one another but Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia is emulating Bashir al Assad of Syria. Assad was hailed as an enlightened leader with western sensibilities, just as MBS is now. But BAA was always at his core a murderous despot that took some time to fully "appreciate."
MBS is starting early but will soon (as he's working very hard at it) be there. We (the West, and China) had better prepare to wean ourselves from Saudi oil or fight wars within and around Saudi Arabia.
4
This is just another moment in the rise of the global autocracy. Trump sees himself as a member of the club, a club of strong men who rule through fear and intimidation.
He views the world as a series of personal relationships that he has with individuals that he considers his "friends". These are friends that view the world in a transnational way where there is no truth, no objective reality, no ethics or moral imperative, only, "what's in it for me." And me means himself personally.
10
When George HW Bush was CIA director the Saudi became our MidEast representative and we turned our eyes from the barbarity. We sent Osama to help destroy the Soviet Empire with acts of terrorism. Every year the Bin Ladens, Bin Salmans and Bushes got together at Kennebunkport. On 9/12 it was Saudis in the planes that were in the sky.
I am a Canadian we are almost in a state of war with Saudi Arabia because our Foreign Secretary Chrystria Freeland talked about the jailing, torturing and killing journalists in Saudi Arabia in August.
We have watched as MBS initiated the Kavanaugh defense as friends were summoned home from Canada. Feigned outrage has been a Republican tactic since Trump was first in diapers. Whenever the truth threatens the right wing narrative feigned outrage is the order of the day.
Every documentary on terrorism that focuses in on Islamic Terrorism bring us to Saudi Arabia.
Chrystia Freeland published Sale of the Century in 1999 it is the story of how the Oligarchs took over Russia she published Plutocrats: The Rise of the Global Super Rich and the Fall of Everyone Else. She is a centrist with 25 years experience as an economic journalist and many contacts throughout the world.
When Chrystia Freeland told Saudi Arabia to stop arresting, jailing , torturing journalists in August even NYT Opinion Columnists need stop praising a ruthless tyrant as a reformer.
I am a Canadian and I don't have to trust or verify MBS and Trump are enemies.
8
Sobering thoughts from one of our most gifted observers of a troubled part of the world. Trump and Company can parrot the Saudi lies all they want, but at a terrible cost. Denial with no rational basis makes the man in the Oval Office seem a even bigger fool. Juvenile comments about "rouge gangs" reinforce an image that our president and his team are out of their league. Comparing the obvious slaughter of a journalist to the very legal challenges to Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation is a carefully crated lie, another cynical effort to play that "base," supporters Trump obviously thinks can be manipulated on demand.
3
I worked in Saudi Arabia for 12 years in the late 70's and early 80's when the young Saudis used to call oil "Black Blood". Back then, the cost of extracting a barrel of oil (=42 Gallons!) was $0.27 (27 Cents!) There are around 5,000 Royals, together with the Religious Leaders that rule the country with brutal, harsh and swift punishment for ALL crimes. The modern day version of "stoning" to death is done by a Mercedes dump truck that backs up to the accused adulterer and empties a load of rocks to carry out the death sentence. Decapitations of hands and heads, along with lashings are done in the public squares each Friday after the morning prayers. The country's laws and justice system are entirely arbitrary, but women can now drive to a movie theater... Welcome to the Modern World of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
8
We will never have a good resolution to this crisis as long as we are addicted to Saudi oil. By what rationale is the US now exporting oil? We should not export a drop of oil until we no longer import oil from Saudi Arabia. Of course, our ruling class is corrupt and obscenely so. Kushner and Trump like to play the tough guys but we all know that they would not last a minute alone with their Saudi, Philippine and Russian counterparts. They are cheats and frauds, and the sooner we are rid of them the better.
3
When the UK government, backed by UK, US and other intelligence services, accused the Russians of using nerve agent to poison Sergei and Yulia Skripal there was a concerted response form NATO and other western nations (including even neutral Ireland). Diplomats were expelled, consulates and other facilities were shuttered. Ambassadors were summoned and reprimanded.
Now the Saudis are accused if luring Jamal Khashoggi to the consulate in Instanbul having sent a 15 man hit team to the same location.
The evidence supports the conclusion - the Saudis brutally murdered a critical journalist to silence him. What will be our response???
155
@Brendan makes an excellent point, and in all the pressure put on Putin there was never a shadow of a doubt his leadership might be threatened. Putin could ride out anything, and stick his finger in our eye every time we needed his help with something.
The situation with MBS is much different. While he needs us more than we need him, even under the best of circumstances, with a far more intelligent, principled U.S. president, punishing the Saudis for what they did would be an incredibly challenging balancing act.
Friedman understands that better than any of us. I would be interested to hear his take on his friend Khashoggi's dark side, that the Western audience knows so little about.
What can you do? Follow Canada’s lead. Sure the fake crown prince passed a few reforms - then jailed women dissidents for their protests. Have you asked what happens to them in prison? And you forget the imprisonment of their wealthiest citizens to extort their money and businesses? President Obama did not forget that Osama bin Laden was a Saudi. You know the terrorist. You are complicit in the Saudi whitewash.
5
The slaughter of Jamal Kashoggi has captured the imagination of the media and the public in a way that the continuing ownership of American politicians by the Russians has not. One, it is gruesome and "if it bleeds, it leads". Two, the Russians have bought and paid for the stupidest of American politicians, and they tend to say stupid and inconsequential things; while the Saudis have bought and paid for so called "thought leaders" and prominent politicians and so people are paying attention, and three-it really does appear even to the most foolish American that Trump and his family are more concerned about their personal fortunes with the Saudis than with America. How ironic that what will bring Trump and his foul family down is not the Mueller investigation but a botched murder; much like the cheap Mafia Don Trump is.....
3
"We can debate what was the right response to the attacks — "
Actually Tom, I think that debate is pretty much over and you've lost.
2
An old friend said (before he died), "One man die, it is tragedy; many dollars lost, it is bad business". Maybe that summarize the situation for your President Trump, who likes calling women funny names and lying like Bangkok street sellers. Another bigger point is how far can Saudi reforms go with this so-called MBS? He is like our friend Kim Jong Un (KJU?) who assassinated his Dear Brother in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. KJU was much more honest and upfront about his intention. No, it was not an 'accident', just an assassination ordered by a dictator. US likes associating with Saudi for oil and money, both of them good lubricants for any type of friction - as I am sure your President is well-versed in their usage. So let us forget about this inconvenient truth of a murdered journalist and let the party continue..
5
Strange that Friedman still insists on having such a thing called "reform" under Bin Salman in Saudi Arabia after all these.
(while simultaneously ignoring the well-established reformist movement in Tehran. Obama did git it right. )
1
No matter what side you are on with this, ( just read the comments/responses in the WSJ justifying this debacle,) it's just too depressing. Slouching towards Gomorrah via Trump.
3
If Trump keeps cozying up to Saudi this way he's as guilty as Kahoggis killers. Where is the defense for the life of a legal resident of the United States?
8
Mr Friedman -- appointing an ambassador to Saudi Arabia isn't going to solve anything. That's like putting a Band Aid on a corpse.
However we have the power to kick the Saudi ambassador out of America. And what about the UN? The UN which is so quick to condemn Israel at the drop of a hat has yet to issue a statement condemning state sponsored murder from Saudi Arabia.
4
My friend and former client Amr Al Dabbagh is one of the Saudi businessmen who was detained in the Ritz. He's still in detention because he won't surrender all his assets. He's reportedly been tortured. Please stay on top of this story.
6
"Saudi Reforms" .... if ever there was an oxymoron this was it.
Women driving, OK, activist women arrested on the same day ... Nice! And, these other reforms from the authoritarian kid, were what again
2
From the pictures it looks to me like Sec. Pompeo and the Crown Prince had a very nice meeting and determined together that Khashoggi committed suicide, after hiring a doctor and a clean-up crew to come in and cut up his body.
Mystery solved as far as I am concerned.
5
I use to think 9/11 was the worst thing that happened in America in my lifetime. Now I am confident it is the rise of Donald Trump and fascism in America.
18
Secretary-General António Guterres in remarks to donor conference in Geneva on 3 April '18
"Yemen is the world’s worst humanitarian crisis. As the conflict enters its fourth year, more than 22 million people – three-quarters of the population – need humanitarian aid and protection."
That was in April 2018, Donald Trump and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman must have missed this. Perhaps Friedman as well.
The crisis has only worsened since then. Meanwhile, the President of the United States of America brushes off the probable death of Jamal Khashoggi as the work of rogues.
Is the future of more than 22 million Yemenis in the hands of rogues? Yes and their names are Donald Trump and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
Who or what body will hold them responsible?
Who or what body will act to prevent this genocide?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
7
Real reforms come from below and not bestowed by brutal thugs. Friedman should know this.
His promotion of “MBS” is shameful. Of course he will not accept responsibility for it.
Saudi Arabia is a semi-feudal dictatorship that can only be reformed by mass insurrection and revolution from below.
I “pray” for that day.
Michael
3
Your most accurate statement - you can't fix stupid. The current administration will never engage in efforts to encourage Islamic religious reform. It will continue to preach blanket hatred for a religion as opposed to a radical segment of a religion. Trump will continue to lump all Islamic adherents into one defamed pile. There was a time when "stupid" was not on both sides of the world. No more.
The point of ambassadors and other state department folks who study their areas are that discussions might/could/perhaps would occur before our unitary president acts as he does. Perhaps. That's all and it's mighty thin considering the actions of this POTUS. But it shows as Friedman writes. Who speaks for MBS? Does Trump prefer that autocracy? Apparently he does. His real estate "empire," even if bankrupted x times and worth y means he thinks what he knows that running this country ain't too different. With the Congress in his GOP group, the evangelicals there by his side, the base shouting LOCK HER UP whoever she is...name your most disliked femme--you've got our system. A bone saw? A disapperance? What century as one writer stated are we in? Where is the enligthenment's affect?
2
Mr. Friedman, you have not mentioned Saudi inflicted carnage in Yemen. Does this not merit more than a "censure?"
5
I'm very disappointed in you, Mr. Friedman for choosing this particular time to try to absolve yourself of any responsibility for giving credibility to this brash, reckless ruler when finally this story is getting all the traction it so rightfully deserves. This is not about you Mr. Friedman. It's about protecting and honoring the basic human rights that Jamal Khoshoggi and all the other journalists, who are snubbed and exiled, deserve. You of all people with such a big reputation in journalistic circles should have been more patient in picking your time to dissociate yourself from the crown prince.
4
What if...... Trump doesn't have ambassador in these countries because he wants to deal with the government himself ...in back rooms..... where he can strike deals that personally further his businesses and his own personal aims?
What if...... Trump told the Saudis that he would have their backs if they went after that reporter, as it is yet another evil envelope that Trump is pushing towards his own gathering of ultimate power?
What if..... Trump visions a world where he can, at will, call in his markers with Putin,the Saudis, North Korea, and others (America Hate Groups), etc....), and have journalists he doesn't like kidnapped and killed anywhere in the world by countries who have the same goals as he does? That would mean that any New York Times (for instance) journalist on vacation in a foreign country (and eventually in The USA) can get killed by Trump's foreign thugs, a stooge can be set up and executed for the crime as a show, and everything will be buried under the rug.
Putin has already killed in England. The Saudis have killed in Turkey. ICE has kidnapped babies at the border on Trump's orders. A Supreme Court Justice has lied under oath and owes Trump his job. Congress is a Trump puppet show.
What if.....Trump, on his way down the legal black hole, will use all his powers and allies to wage a very real and deadly war with the last bastion of American democracy he hasn't yet conquered or corrupted; The Press.
6
Have we forgotten?
Does it matter?
9/11 happened because radical Sunni Saudis and the like
objected to U.S. presence and political meddling
in their Holy Land, in Mecca
and other than the nucs in Pakistan, why are we there?
Why are we there?
Why are we there?
Why are we there?
repeat, repeat, etc.
2
The sight of Mike Pompeo yukking it up with the Saudi minister as he ostensibly arrived to get the truth (while secretly helping them concoct a cover story) was sickening.
By hitching his wagon to Trump's "star," Pompeo has made a pact with the devil, losing any scintilla of integrity he once had.
Did he work hard at West Point for this????
Donald Trump wishes this whole Khashoggi mess would just go away, just like the Mueller investigation.
The Saudis and Trump were made for each other. Its a relationship based on oil, pure and simple, and basic greed from a president with a long history of taking their money to bail out his failing businesses.
its also a relationship where appearances and half truths substitute for honesty and integrity. Clearly there's no honor among thieves.
I've said it here, and I'll say it again: Trump runs the US government foreign policy like an extension of his family business.
In the case of poor khashoggi, its hard to tell if Trump is wagging the Saudis or vice versa.
Somehow I suspect the latter.
Trump is shredding whatever honor remained in US foreign policy for his thirty pieces of silver.
8
I can understand a public call for the president to behave responsibly. That is expected. If there were some capacity to thread the needle, maybe the people around him can force responsible behavior, but it will not be easy.
Our president's raison d'être is money (and the never-ending search for personal flattery) and that will dominate his thinking. Nothing in his established behaviors would cause him to do anything other than try to make excuses to preserve "the deal."
This is not just about the government's money. During the campaign the Trump family had registered eight companies--all apparently tied to their hotel interests--in Saudi Arabia: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/a-scramble-to-assess-the... . The ongoing saga our our very own Romanoffs. Or General Bullmoose.
10
Trump will of course support the Saudis. He's figuring if he can get away with his support this time when he does the same his supporters will rally around him.
Besides, President Smallmember is thinking of the cash he'll make off them in the future.
5
Mr. Friedman, trump doesn't want an Ambassador, the same type our former presidents have had. He believes good ole Jared can handle the job beautifully and, beautifully means "trumps' way." And most of us know that is very dangerous.
7
Trump said that again that the press is determining guilt and do not presume innocence until proven guilty. Trump does not acknowledge that heads of state like M.B.S. and Putin are hands-on and attack journalists or whoever criticize them. "Politics as usual".
If there is no serious, systematic and in-depth investigation, the guilty will continue to be innocent forever. Mutatis mutandis, is the same approach taken by Trump and the GOP in the Kavanaugh confirmation process.
By the way, a US ambassador in Saudi Arabia could be effective with a different boss.
6
Mr Friedman,
You've effectively stated the moral dilemma that confronts the US leadership today, with regard to Saudi Arabia. You've also painted for us the big picture of 'potential Saudi reforms'. It's certainly an honourable goal, not something to be dismissed outright. But, the thing is, Khashoggi-like incidents have troubled world leaders throughout the ages. Hard decisions have to be made, however outrageous or condemnable they may appear. It's really nothing new. Yet, you may have overlooked one important aspect of this story: the sneaking suspicion that the current US leadership may be personally beholden to the Saudi royalty. Is that why the President is unable to stick to a single narrative, or even rally his own party to support his interpretation of events? Is it his personal, monetary interest that dictates his words and actions, and not national interest? It's a suspicion that first raised its head in the context Russia and its malevolent involvement during 2016 elections. And a suspicion that's unlikely to die down any time soon- around the world. No matter how clever the spin or how grand the 'big picture!'
29
Here's Trump's base. They are going wild over the new school principal who has severely cracked down on the students and faculty who question his methods. He is a huge football fan. And there has been a rash of break-ins and thefts from student lockers. And someone discovers several of the stars of the football team are seen on video hanging around the lockers after school. Locker doors are then seen open, but no sign of the players. They have gotten away with bullying and doing poorly in school, but deny they are involved in the thefts. The team marches on toward the state championship. And the principal, when confronted with this evidence, states publicly " Most likely was a group of second or third stringers". And as long as the team keeps on winning.....Trump's base accepts that theory hook, line, and sinker. Over and over again.
8
Tom's desire to separate the leader from the country is noble, but impossible in this case. The Saudi's are a kingdom. The man is the state. If they were a democracy, the option of dealing with the state separate from the man (as some of our allies are no doubt trying to do with us) is difficult but feasible. With a kingdom that isn't an option. This guy is next in line and has the reigning reins now. He is Saudi Arabia.
There are no good short term options. Long term, electrify the automotive fleet and eliminate the source of the kingdom's power.
28
Our young MBS, the Croesus of our times and the Oracle at Delphi predictions.This river has been crossed and there’s no turning around. Saudi Vision 2030 is now a made for television movie. A double feature with Plan 9 from Outer Space.
Martin Indyck and Dennis Ross can aptly read the Oracle’s waters. They can fortell there are tempests in the tableau of a just and lasting Middle East peace.
The Faustian bargain made with and a compact for the Devil of a deal. Tom, you are correct that this Box is fully opened and hope has been left dangling in the winds of what might have been.
Mephistopheles at every corner whispering the wisest course of action. What’s a Leader to do?
1
Mr. Friedman provides us with a nice history lesson on how Islamic Fundamentalists came to have power over civil government in the Middle East. Their influence has changed the course of history.
But, what he fails to recognize is that the same thing has and is happening inside our Christian nation. I would invite anyone to view the 'invocation' of Franklin Graham at Trump's Phoenix rally and tell me that that sounds anything like Christianity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COz5hwtR8Gg
The GOP has made no less a deal with Christian Fundamentalists than the ruling class in the Middle East has made with Islamic Fundamentalists.
I believe this is the underlying message of Pope Francis to Catholics and to the world: when you mix politics and religion, both are corrupted.
45
An ambassador is not going to help. An ambassador can be expelled or a significant number of his staff can be expelled.
Nothing is going to help Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia doesn't want to be helped. They are happy living in the 13th century. They enjoy theocracy and love their mullahs and madrasas. They appreciate women as cattle. They tolerate autocracy and they love keeping contaminants out of their country.
12
@Stephen Kurtz
Who is "they"?
@William Marsden
They are the Saudis and their theocracy and their monarchy.
Agreed 100%. And, IMO, we will do nothing. Trump is already greasing the slide for MBS to slip out of the mess. It will come down to remarks like "rogue criminals" and "nobody knows for sure" and, if all else fails, "who are we to judge." The GOP in Congress, based upon recent evidence, will make some outraged, righteous noises, then cave. The whole affair will be used on the campaign trail to remind Trump fans about Kavanaugh, "fake news," and how terrible liberal Democrats are hysterical about things that are really none of our concern. MBS will pay no price of consequence - at least not exacted by us.
23
Thomas Friedman, thought leader and patron saint of neoliberalism, is consistently wrong about everything related to this issue. He still erroneously seems to think that neoliberal economic reforms will somehow temper radical Islam and magically usher in Western political institutions. These are deeply flawed premises.
When will he realize that modern, high tech, diversified economies no longer need democratic institutions to thrive?
9
@TSK Friedman did redefine global warming as "global weirding" a while back. Nothing like putting the confidence interval at around 50%, give or take a flatess of pretty flat on the flatness scale. Man, we need a new intelligentsia.
1
@TSK
First, let's see MBS (or any other Saudi royal) turn Saudi Arabia into a diversified economy. Then get back to us.
I find the whole thing infuriating: women given the right to drive, given the right to vote, etc. Men get to do the giving, or not, depending on their whims, what's expedient for them, decide whether a woman stays pregnant or not. Women have to wait, demand (not with shrill voices, of course) to do what they should have been doing all along.
21
Unfortunately the problem in Saudi Arabia is now too big to be fixed internally. Some outside power, stronger than the current regime would need top step in. That’s been true at least since 2001 but it’s about as likely as terminating Soviet totalitarianism from outside. SA’s ace in the hole is oil, but it’s running out. The finance conference is a not too well disguised admission that oil will not fuel its economy deep into this century. But given the oil situation, and the US’s relative independence from Saudi Oil (we import less than 1 million BBLS/day) containment might work. In fact containment might be a big boost to a global effort to curb emissions and convert to renewables, something we all know we need to do. The whole relationship of the global economy to oil and its producers is crumbling. Use this moment to do something better. And don’t sell them more guns.
23
Just one note on linguistics.
The US tends to shorten names into acronyms, often in an attempt to familiarize and endear the person or place. It’s not just to shorten, we shorten to express that we are all aware of the person or place, to express a comfort level and a communal familiarity. When we shorten a name in our families it is often the same.
Some notable name shortenings:
FDR
JFK
LA
NYC
Curious how the West, the political West, is trying desperately to bring MBS into the same vernacular.
Friedman is one of those.
14
@Dave Not desperately! In the service of Twitter and email.
The most interesting aspect of the Khashoggi murder is that the Saudi state didn't try to hide its involvement. MBS knew that it would be traced back to him, and it seems like he just doesn't care. He thinks he is going to get away with it.. This act was a demonstration of his power.
I think that MBS has a talent for telling people what they want to hear. I suspect that he has played the US elite for fools, with the help of expensive Manhattan PR firms. More than likely he has funneled campaign money to Trump and other Washington politicians, who will now repay his investment by helping to ensure that no effective action is taken against him by the US.
There needs to be a complete reassessment of his agenda. He may be an Islamic fanatic who is pretending to be a reformer to gain power. Or maybe he is just a power hungry nationalist. Either way I fear he will cause us a lot of trouble. He has shown a willingness to violate the norms of international relations. Given time, he may start invading and conquering neighboring countries to increase his oil wealth.
35
@Schrodinger - you make excellent observations about Mohammed bin Salman's actions since he made his largest power grab and Trump's visit to SA was a fantastic con job - the Saudis very quickly knew how to flatter him into a friendship to serve their purposes. You state "There needs to be a complete reassessment of his agenda". I'm afraid to think that given Mike Pompeo's useless visit to him, which may have helped give legitimacy to bin Salman's denial, such a public, necessary, and internationally mutual reassessment is impossible. I also believe that the US should have better data about the lives of Saudi citizens and lives of Iranians before painting these populations with a broad brush, as Thomas Friedman does. Saudi citizens are facing a drastic decline in their lifestyles, not only because bin Salman did a terrible job of a national IPO for his nation's oil resources, and Iranian citizens seems to have a hunger for something new, something better after so much loss and suffering.
4
I can't remember any president ever calling the media 'the enemy of the people'. Trump has called the press so many names maybe the Sandi's got the idea it is okay to murder reporters and Trump wouldn't do anything. So far they are right.
40
Trump got it wrong - the press isn't the enemy of the people (tho' I would say they are the enemies of cats - go figure). The press simply ignores the people. They would rather publish a dozen articles about one individual, and ignore all the other people who are being killed.
The death of one man is a tragedy and at the hands of an ally it makes you wonder what else they may do. However, the Khashoggi story has been over played by an American press always eager for any opening against President Trump. The fact is we have few obvious options - the Saudis are a counterweight to the expansionist Iranians with no obvious substitute.
6
@Chris - The US does have options. For instance, the supposed $110 billion in arms deals with the Saudis is fictional--common practice with the Saudis is that they give the US a wish list, and then order half of that at best, via later signed arms deals. The $110 billion is the sum of their current wish list. $55 billion is still a lot, but if it came down to it, the US could threaten to pull out of that wish list and not sign any associated arms deals, and the US economy and the businesses involved wouldn't suffer significantly. The Saudis are already heavily invested in US arms systems, so they don't really have a good option in replacing those systems with versions from Russia or China, which would be inferior anyways. In a normal US administration, the president would use this as leverage to extract concessions from the Saudis that reforms would be made to reduce MBS's increasing authoritarianism, or remove him from his current position altogether, but Trump, Kushner, and others in their circle have deals with the Saudis that they're trying to keep under wraps, which benefit themselves and not the public, and so Trump has no interest in using the US's leverage, and instead is pretending to the public that it's the Saudis who hold the leverage against the US via their arms wish list.
29
@Chris What could Iran do worse then bombing children and starving a country, genuinely curious.
1
@Chris Frankly speaking, I would prefer not having a counterweight to the "expansionist" Iranians, if the only counterweight is a region which supplied 15 of the 19 terrorists who attacked our nation on 9.11...and it's mastermind. I'd rather not have a counterweight that is causing an unprecedented human catastrophe in Yemen...
Iran, a country with 2000+ years of history and culture has -to the best of my knowledge- never attacked the United States.
“Here we go again.”
Yes, here we go again with Trump’s explicit response that seems to apply to so many of his own questionable actions and decisions, as well as those of his murderous icons.
Here we go again with the normalization of means surpassing ends, whether at home or abroad.
Here we go again with “the other guy did it.”
Here we go again diplomatically prostrating ourselves at the feet of a regressive, dictatorial regime rather than condemning and sanctioning their actions.
And here we go again walking back an author’s prior endorsement of an entitled “leader” who’s going to revolutionize a repressive theocratic dynasty.
Finally, here we go again publicly undermining what we once took to be benchmark regarding the values of free speech and the sanctity of human life. Yes, America’s made its share of questionable interventions that have resulted in elevating non democratic governments to power. But the Saudis have the distinct dishonor of being players in the worst assault on America on 9/11, in addition to their distaste and blatant disregard for any criticism of their kingdom.
The $110 billion in arms sales has not yet been fulfilled, and it’s time to start imposing consequences for inhumane behavior by so called allies. But here we go again with Trump siding with authoritarianism and supporting suppression of dissent instead of holding their feet to the fire.
49
We have a national interest in ending Saudi Arabia's influence on our foreign and military policy. We have a national interest in putting an end to the charade that is the storyline of MbS' reformist reputation. As for Saudi reforms? MbS' reforms are a thin veneer for power consolidation.
The man is a butcher and a thug who has no respect for culture, diplomatic norms, the lives of his own citizens or those of his neighbors.
Trump and MBS have been feeding off of each other's corruption and bent for thuggish behavior - prompting MbS to take a page out of The Godfather.
Giving him a pass will show the world just how low we've sunk in the name of the Almighty Dollar.
Let the defense contractors, oil companies, Uber, the Tech industry and all the others who've been salivating over doing big business in Saudi Arabia know that no amount of lobbying will help: America is closing business with Saudi Arabia until proven change has taken place, starting with MbS being demoted into oblivion. He is unfit, as a ruler, by any standard.
Let Congress act, for once, and close off any possibility that Trump will let this go. For once, let this Congress grow a spine.
There is no dilemma here. A man was lured into a place that is supposed to be safe. Then, he was mercilessly murdered and savagely cut into pieces and smuggled out onto a plane. Anyone who sees a dilemma here needs to retake Ethics 101.
---
'Things Trump Did While You Weren’t Looking' https://wp.me/p2KJ3H-2ZW
100
@Rima Regas: Bingo. It's been a few years since I revisited "Lawrence of Arabia", but if I'm not mistaken, Larry didn't have an Apple iWatch. I'd like to think that technology would make the arc of justice move more swiftly . . .
6
@Rima Regas If you expect this congress (who could have written "spinelessness for dummies") to act in any ethical fashion or to do anything counter to Trump, and before the midterms, you don't apparently understand to whom you are appealing. These people are no better than MBS or our criminal president. Witness their rush to install Kavanaugh on the SC, a man unfit to serve on any court, and you should recognize appeals to ethical behavior consistently fall on deaf Republican ears. Their only concern is amoral, namely how to get enough money to stay in office so they can continue to benefit themselves at the cost of the entire nation.
To Mr. Friedman, be assured Trump will not do what it right or what is good for America, as Trump will always come first without any regard for the welfare of others, and certainly not our country.
2
@MyOwnWoman
Enough top executives and foreign dignitaries have pulled out of MBS' Davos in the desert event to give one guarded hope that there is a significant enough lobby of Congress to put an end to US collaboration with this thug.
With the rather sizable Saudi investment in Uber, even that CEO has pulled out. Don't forget that immediately after Trump and Kushner visited Saudi Arabia a year ago, you had the standoff with Qatar and the incident in which a slew of Saudi princes and wealthy businessmen were arrested and put in prison at the Sheraton. Then there was the Lebanese prime minister... All these people represent a lot of money.
This is where we are now.
How does the U.S. assist to propel the Saudi social/religious reform process forward if the country, itself, does not earnestly embrace that these changes are in its own vital interest? It appears that we have put all our diplomatic eggs in M.B.S.’s basket which is now inexorably falling apart. With no successor mentioned by Mr. Friedman to this individual, once more we are faced with the consequences and dilemma of supporting the wrong leader in an authoritarian regime where there does not exist any line of democratic succession.
19
@John Grillo - Yes, it seems like a terrible deal to make with the Saudis--"If you let women drive, and you let movie theaters open, we'll pretend these things mean you're on the road to reform and joining the normal world, even though you still brutally torture and even murder your dissidents, including ones with permanent US resident status who are also journalists."
Historically, the US not only supports the wrong regime, we overthrow or murder progressive leaders like Moussadegh, Allende and Lumumba.
Friedman misses a very important point. Saudi Arabia has picked a fight with the world’s largest corporation and the world’s richest man. Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post. As owner of the Post he is, like it or not, put into a fight with Saudi Arabia. One should not expect that there will be any publicity from the fight. Bezos does not Tweet.
However, Bezos and his firm do have very large relationships with the world’s largest banks. Every large bank, no doubt, has a department devoted to expanding their business with Amazon.
As the owner of one of the worlds’ great newspaper, Bezos need only remind the various financial institutions wanting to do business with his firm that Saudi Arabia murdered one of his reporters. Very little need be said. However, the financial community is now forced to make a choice it did not face in the past: try to do busines with Saudi Arabia and sacrifice Amazon as a client – or drop Saudi Arabia. There need be no publicity. But Saudi Arabia picked a fight with the wrong news organization.
106
@Philip Verleger
I hope you are correct about Jeff Bezos and his bankers.
It’s a hope Bezos will use his wealth that way. But will he?
@Philip Verleger
I wouldn't assume that Bezos, Amazon, or the Post will take the side of a dead reporter over the Saudis. Money is thicker than blood for global billionaires and their corporations.
Our values are our interests.
Our values are our strength.
Grovelling before tyrants and murderers is not in our interest.
Rightly understood, our values and interests coincide.
Hint: It is called human rights and the rule of law.
47
Dear Mr. Friedman,
I have read a lot of your articles over the years and have watched you on TV. This is the first time I find your opinion on Saudi Arabia convoluted. I understand your longing to want MBS to succeed but from the beginning he took an unbalanced approach that showed his lack of experience and maturity. The Khaleej needs young vibrant leaders, but it needs them to posses some wisdom, not brash impulsiveness to lead them into the future. Without this balance, radical Islam could take an even larger strangle hold over Saudi Arabia. At this point, however, all the sharks that got locked up in the Ritz during the purge can smell the blood in the water, and they will for sure come to take a bite out of MBS. Khaleeji history teaches us that the most successful leaders, the ones that are most loved by their country men are those that did not rule with an iron fist but ruled by being generous, kind and compassionate. Sultan Qaboos and Sheikh Zayed Al-Nahyan are prime examples of these rulers.
Their are always people that will need to controlled with an iron fist but the instinct to know who does and who doesn't is not with MBS. Jamal was not one to be dealt with mobster tactics, rather he was someone who should have been a consigliere to MBS to share an opposing view. Wise leaders always listen to both sides of an argument before making a decision. Comparing past and present Khaleeji leaders in your articles will send a powerful message to Saudi Arabia and to MBS.
21
“When they go low, we go high”. Sure wish I could have voted for a Barack third term, or a Michelle first. I believe both would have handled this situation in a way that represented our values.
26
9/11 isn’t even close to the worst thing that has happened to America in our lifetimes. 9/11 was one day, and then it was over. People died; but more than 42,000 people died in 9/11 in traffic accidents in 2001, and I don’t recall any national uproar about them. Most of the damage from 9/11 was caused by the U.S. reaction to it, not the original event, which was horrible for the victims and their families, but more like a TV special for almost everyone else.
No, the worst thing to happen in most of our lifetimes is Donald Trump. He damages everything he touches, and he’s an ongoing catastrophe that can only get worse. His reaction to the murder of Khasshogi is a case in point; he has just given a signal to autocrats around the world that they can murder U.S. residents (and anyone else) and get away with it, scot-free.
195
9/11 was not just one day. It was an event that caused our worldview to change- “They can attack us on our own soil!” - caused the stock market to crash, and brought us the long airport security lines that we all hate.
Constance, you hit the nail on the head. The only way to rid our country from Dirty Don is to vote Democratic, which is the party of the people and our values. DD is a wild animal which must Die. Die DD & GOP, ASAP. We are USA...
@Constance Warner And he has been signaling to autocrats, particularly Putin, that there are no significant consequences to murdering journalists. His campaign of "enemies of the people," "fake news" and taunting of journalists at rallies. The guy is a fascist and that is the only story.
Exxon Mobil may not like it, but:
Incentives to produce/buy renewable energy.
Incentives to produce/buy plug in hybrid and electric vehicles.
In 10-15 years the dilemma will be resolved.
If not, the next 40 years in the ME will look more or less like the last 40.
8
There is no reason for the USA to support Saudi Arabia, Iran, Israel, or Egypt. They all regularly act in ways that are counter to our values, and counter to peace and stability in the region. Cancelling all aid and support for the region and maintaining only arm's length relations is the only defensible position. We don't need Saudi Arabia (or Israel, Egypt, or Iran). Saudi Arabia needs to understand the loneliness of isolation.
24
Just as Trump is isolating us.
Once again Mr. Friedman is correct on the diagnosis but wrong on the cure. There is absolutely nothing that the U.S. needs from Saudi Arabia (or, for that matter, from the Middle East in general). To the extent that we still have need of oil we've got plenty of it right here and can obtain the rest from friendly nations outside the region (Mexico, Norway, Nigeria, etc.). "MBS" deserves nothing from us save the back of our hand. Let the jihadists deal with him and with the rest of the secular despots in the area. Sunni extremists would spend so much blood, time and effort in combat with the monarchies of their own homelands, let alone with the armies of the Shiites and Alawites (and never mind the Israelis!), that they wouldn't be bothering with the West for the next century or so. And if we got out of their territory and stayed out, the folks at al-Qaeda and ISIS and whoever comes after them would have no reason to attack us in any case. Not even the most rabid members of those organizations talk seriously about spreading the Prophet's faith to the far corners of the earth. Reconquering all of their former territory is their idealized goal, and- let's face it- the rest of us have nothing to worry about unless they get to the borders of Spain and India.
19
What will happen is Trump will sit in his hands until it is resolved whether the crown prince stays or goes. If the crown prince can keep his Saudi support, Trump will pretend nothing happened. If the crown prince is replaced, Trump will attempt to be buddies.
Any question as to what happened or the moral issues is further from Trump’s mind than global warming.
27
Wait. In the final paragraph you said "But you can't fix stupid." Then you went on to say that "Trump might start by…" How can Trump do what's needed if you can't fix stupid?
96
This is infinitely better than the previous semi-apology. Still, pointing to others being worse than MBS does no good - he is the one who has the power, the others do not. Any leader as far gone as MBS should be condemned. Yes the Saudi establishment will be a threat to peace even without MBS. But that should not moderate our views of him.
14
There is a simple solution. Work with the most democratic institutions in ME as a hedge against Saudi Arabia. It means working with Iran and providing a balance of power. Saudis spending Iranian 10:1 in military spending. Their influence is from Morocco to Yemen and Pakistan now. They're backing the islamist in Syria. Yet, we have been silent on all these issues, because Israeli lobby wants Iran destroyed. The current issue with Saudi Arabia is two folds. Oil business and Israeli lobby. Oil will solve itself with time with domestic production and gradually reduction of fossil fuel demand. The remaining issue will the Likud followers and supporters allow US to have a more balance policy toward Iran and use Iran to put pressure on Saudi's behavior. Mr. Friedman didn't not even make this suggestion. So my guess is no. The best option will be off table because Israelis will not approve it.
47
During Obama's presidency, we became self sufficient on oil production. Why do we need to balance anything? I certainly wouldn't want to encourage regime change in Saudi Arabia, but I don't think we have much to lose by letting them know this kind of behavior is unacceptable in today's world.
11
Just as our behavior was unacceptable in Iraq.
If Saudi Arabia becomes a failed state, its influence in the Islamic world would fade. It would have trouble maintaining the oil production to fund Islamic extremism, and the world's Muslims might have to seek a safer pilgrimage destination and a more coherent theology.
Keeping a Saudi Arabia intact that is unable to kick its addiction to religious fanaticism is perhaps no longer a good idea, if it ever was. If it dissolves in turmoil and civil war, Islam will have to seek other centers.
9
@sdavidc9
First, let me state that what matters most to the royals in Saudi Arabia is staying in power.
Seconnd, a failed Mideast state is ALWAYS much worse for global stability and its own good citizens than anything else. Look at Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan,and the INFINITELY WORSE SITUATIONS that prevail because of externally imposed regimes. Best is to push Saudis towards a less aggressive regional approach and a more progressive , more peaceful one internally - that's the way for the regime to stay in power with US support. If US makes this clear, and seeks to improve relations with Iran etc, Saudi leaders would get the message.
10
@Salim Lone
“second, a failed Mideast state is ALWAYS much worse for global stability and its own good citizens than anything else. Look at Iraq, Syria, Libya,”
And each of those failed states were caused by American agreesion, Iraq and Libya through deceit and deception and Syria by US and allied support and arming of fanatic terrorists that replaced peaceful demonstrations against the Syrian government during the so-called Arab Spring. The intention was to devide and impoverish Syria and cripple the Assad government which had been a faithful US ally.
Why keep a United States addicted to greed, violence, racism, war, and religious fanaticism, intact? If some civilized power offered to topple our gov't, it might not be such a bad idea, either.
"So, once again, what do we do? I don’t have a simple answer. It’s a mess. All I know is that we have to find some way to censure M.B.S. for this — without seeming to attack the whole Saudi people and destabilize the country."
Unfortunately, in a monarchy such as Saudi Arabia, it is a package deal. And M.B.S. takes everything personally, as do all other leaders there. L'état, c'est moi is not just an historical phrase there. It is policy.
As for Mr. Friedman's kick off for the fix:
"But Trump might start by appointing an ambassador to Saudi Arabia."
Indeed. This is correct in general, but has nothing to do with the problem. And the problem remains: M.B.S. is Saudi Arabia for better or worse. They do not allow picking and choosing.
21
It's hard to see how we as a nation could continue to have a "constructive" relationship with the Saudi's as long as MBS is running the show...
The Saudi's need to do an "After Action Assessment" and that should contain a plan for transitioning to the "next" reformer Prince.
MBS can cite a desire to spend more time with his family as a reason for stepping down...
2
Saudi Arabia is 100% responsible for 9/11.
We should invest heavily in renewable energy generation and move away from oil as much as possible. Then we can ignore the Middle-East entirely.
The technology is here. We can do it. There is no reason we should be involved with Saudi Arabia, or any country in the Middle East, at all. Their society, culture, legal systems, religious practices, governments, etc. are none of our business. Let them live in whatever condition they want- without our investments or weapons.
Terror sponsoring nations like Saudi Arabia, Turkey, UAE, Yemen, Bahrain, Egypt, Pakistan, Iran, Yemen, Somalia, Indonesia, Philippines, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Oman and Sudan should be under special scrutiny and their citizens should only be allowed access to the United States under very strict conditions. If we control out borders it doesn't matter if the people of other nations hate us and want to kill us.
It is in our national interest to have no national interests in the region.
16
@WillT26
The Philippines might be ruled by an autocratic strongman, but they are a predominantly christian secular society. Their only problem with islamist terrorism is regional and local. It is a provincial independence movement. And despite ISIS claiming to have a foothold there they could hardly man two teams for a soccer match. Plus the local Islamic groups hate their guts. No international terrorist threat there.
Let's not forget the terror WE wreaked on the region, which created much of the fanaticism in the first place.
This is what happens when the stable genius gives the silent genius the keys to drive foreign policy. The evil genius wins.
28
Mr. Friedman, yes Trump should appoint an ambassador to Saudi Arabia. However, have we all not learned that his appointments, whether national or international, are not about diplomacy or justice or fair play? They instead focus upon and center around his personal philosophy: More power, more control, more money, more financial deals with the devil himself if Trump's pocketbook, narcissism, and ego are enriched. It is all about him. Let us not fool ourselves.
You speak of a dilemma for America as to how we must handle what is looking more and more like an atrocity perpetrated by M.B.S. And yes there seems to be serious choices to be made. However, I believe that there is no real or moral dilemma. To think that we should handle Saudi Arabia with kid gloves in hopes that it will socially and religiously progress may just be chasing rainbows. The end does not justify the means in this case. If what we suspect is true, Saudi Arabia must be condemned. If it is sincere in its desire to modernize its society, they will atone and make restitution. But I fear that now I am chasing a rainbow.
8
Friedman is not alone among the beltway intelligencia proclaiming reforms in Saudi Arabia. But it's all a myth. Saudi Arabia is a family dictatorship. No one elected the "royal family" and the parliament is by law simply an advisory body.
The "Royals" have for years supported Wahabist clerics who in turn preach jihad against the West and other Muslims who don't follow their extreme sect of Islam. We know from released emails that the Saudi's funded ISIS and it is highly unlikely that they didn't have a hand in 9/11.
In fact there is hardly a conservative or reactionary Islamic group in the world today that doesn't have some ties to the Saudi's.
The only reform that they are engaged in is an effort to diversify their economy and prepare for the day when their oil will be increasingly in less demand.
The US should not only distance themselves from the "Royals" but should make it clear that we expect real democratic reforms in Saudi Arabia not window dressing like women drivers.
16
How we treat the Saudi leadership is a harbinger for those who would dare speak out in this country. Trump's cavalier pandering to the Saudi regime -- obviously responsible for Mr. Khashoggi's death -- sends a signal to all of us -- both U.S. citizens, and citizens of other nations.
In addition to Trump's toadying performance in Helsinki and his continued threats against journalists here, Trump's latest kowtowing to MBS provides a number of lessons.
The first is that our nation may no longer be considered one which respects the rule of law, human rights and freedom of the press. The second is that the actions of Putin, and now MBS, in silencing their dissidents, is a method that Trump supports. The third is that, sooner or later, a journalist here will receive the same treatment as Mr. Khashoggi, if he ruffles our "Dear Leader's" feathers. And the fourth is that, once the press is silenced, we will all be afraid.
And this is exactly what Trump wants. By his actions regarding the Khashoggi killing, he is signalling to all of us that we must be very careful about speaking out against him or his corrupt regime. Trump knows that he doesn't speak for the majority of us. He has a large, very well armed minority of voters who still support him, and he will be relying on them increasingly in the coming months and years. But make no mistake -- his comments about Mr. Khashoggi tell us that he intends to instill fear in everyone who opposes him, before his reign is over.
13
@James Tiptree
I have said the same to all my friends and colleagues since Jan 20, 2017. No one believed me. Especially true is the fact that 40% of the nation, his followers, are armed to the teeth. I remain petrified. He has now all 3 branches of government and I fear the Dems have counted their chickens before Nov 6. If they don’t take the House, you can bet we won’t be writing comments to the NYT much longer.
2
Having lived in KSA for four years - and by no means a fan of their "system" - I hate to say it, but the least worst solution is to give them a mulligan on this one.
- Once we abrogated the Iran deal, we're "in for a dime in for a dollar" with Saudi in the grand Sunni-Shiite conflict. You are right that Saudi's role as a "one-to-two degrees removed from state" sponsor of terrorism via charities, wealthy individuals and minor royals has diminished. By contrast, Iran's Revolutionary Guard is still firmly entrenched, and our "switching sides" will not be possible as long as that institution is the power behind the power there.
- This incident, horrible as it is, is no more shocking than many actions by erstwhile allies during the Cold War, such as the murder of U.S. citizen nuns in El Salvador by rightist death squads. It's not even more shocking than Obama ignoring the murder of innocent majority Shiites by Bahrain's minority Sunni Emir.
- We should think twice before changing foreign policy due to the consequences of unecessary risks taken by individuals. And by that I mean the journalists, missionaries, students, hikers, self-styled activists and American passport holding relatives who insist on going to North Korea, Iran, Somalia, Pakistan, etc. despite warnings from family members, the State Dept., and the appeal of common sense. Istanbul might be on the European side of the Bosphorus, but it's also a nexus of spies, cells and intrigue. Even James Bond knew that.
14
@Polyglot8: Forgive me. I'm either too old, or too young, or perhaps this is a regional usage. What is a "mulligan", and why must we give one to Saudi Arabia? Having resided there, you must understand the need, but couldn't the Saudis merely purchase their own?
That was rather incoherent, even by Tom Friedman's standards. But leaving aside my amazement at how this guy, who didn't get anything right once in his whole life, still has a job, there is very little US can do to MBS or Saudi Arabia without jeopardising the alliance between the two countries. With Russia's total win over US in Syria speaking for itself, SA may be tempted to reconsider the source of its own protection in favour of a more reliable, less expensive and far less demanding provider. Push a bit too hard and out the window goes the contract number two. Is the righteous moral outrage really worth it? Nearly everyone in the world with enough juice kills political opponents, dissidents or enemies, less blatantly than Saudis did, grant you, but that's just optics, not genuine principles. This particular opponent was in fact on the islamist side of the Saudi reform debate. So one could argue that eliminating him was intended for a good cause - the one Mr. Friedman argues in favour of. That would be extremely unwise to put an important alliance in jeopardy because of it. Remember, Mr. Putin is waiting in the wings – and he want be so self-righteous.
7
Trump's weasley remarks on the record regarding this nightmare only serve to confirm he'll happily whatever's required to meet the demands of the highest bidder, without compunction and with no questions asked.
7
Mr. Friedman fails to mention Mr. Trump’s seemingly callous comment regarding his retaliatory options against Saudi Arabia, “I don’t like stopping massive amounts of money that’s being poured into our country – they are spending $110bn on military equipment and on things that create jobs for this country.”
For Trump, every situation, however horrific, boils down a monetary transaction. Saudi Arabia’s chutzpah in pulling off this ghastly crime was probably based on its accurate assessment of Trump’s character, or lack of it, in this regard. If Trump had any respect for our moral values, as well as, international diplomatic protocols, he would immediately suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia until this matter is satisfactorily resolved. It’s not a question of guilty until proven innocent, but the preponderance of evidence that demands he act – something akin to a judge revoking bail on a suspect, who seems to be so culpable that proof of guilt is but a formality.
Also, nations normally withdraw their ambassadors in protest, when an offending country commits an egregious act. So, Mr. Friedman’s suggestion at this point in time that “Trump might start by appointing an ambassador to Saudi Arabia” appears more like a reward than a punishment. After 9/11, we said “never again,” when it came to terrorist activity emanating out of Saudi Arabia – Jamal Khashoggi’s murder was just that. Saudi Arabia needs to pay the price, so that real reforms might take place in the secret kingdom.
8
Wealthy Americans should start paying their taxes, then our economy wouldn't need Saudi billions. Bloodsuckers like Bezos and Waltons and Buffett are just as responsible for this mess as Trump. Our own parasite class could do more to save our economy, which they have chosen to sacrifice to self-interest.
“It had to do with how I defined our most important national interest in Saudi Arabia since 9/11. And it is not oil, it’s not arms sales, it’s not standing up to Iran. It’s Islamic religious reform, which can come only from Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam’s holiest cities, Mecca and Medina.”
Few points here. We don’t have the national interests in Saudi Arabia. We have the national interests only here in America. We would have the national interests over there only if Saudi Arabia were one of the American states.
Our most important national interest is to learn and understand the faith. If we accomplished this objective we would be able to create more unified country free of divisions, polarization and antagonism, more tolerant and better educated, and capable of curbing drug, alcohol and obesity epidemics.
You need the faith to control your cravings. Faith is prerequisite to subdue them.
We need Saudi Arabia to learn from their mistakes. They used to be the unified people before splitting into the Sunnis and the Shiites. If you think it couldn’t happen to us, you don’t know your Republicans and Democrats.
There is nothing sacred about Arabia. The holiness comes from the prescribed principles, not from any city or structure.
The reform of religions starts with those capable to understand the faith, not from a Saudi or a prince…
4
Why is it "realpolitik" to sell arms to a country that would kill its own citizen in a consulate in a foreign country? How can we be sure it won't use those weapons against us or our interests?
9
The word "reform" when speaking of the Saudi monarchy bears little meaning in light of the fact that M.B.S. is behaving like a mafia boss attempting to consolidate power by knocking off all his opponents. That is not my idea of 'reform.'
Abolishing the monarchy and substituting it with a constitutional republic would be a real place to start when discussing the reform of Saudi Arabia. In actual practice the bloody machinations of power mongering in Saudi Arabia appear no different than they were 500 years ago.
6
Two-pronged solution. Do not take Saudi oil. Do not give Saudis weapons.
Putin is willing to take on the Middle East mess. Let him. It will be to Russia's doom, not ours.
13
I appreciate a columnist who explains why I should care about one Saudi journalist's political assassination at a moment in history where our own country's democracy and Americans' human rights hang in the balance. You fail to make one connection: another major radical Islamist terror attack on our soil could very well be the tipping point if Republicans retain total control of our national government and most of our state governments. And that would be easy to arrange with the Saudis' help.
8
@abigail49
Why should you care?
Khashoggi was a prominent, influential journalist. Freedom of the press. The press protects our liberties, the core of our democracy. An assault on the press is an assault on freedom.
The murder of a journalist by a sovereign nation INSIDE of an embassy is a tremendous violation of law, order, freedom.
Moreover, America once stood for protecting human rights everywhere, not just in our country. We cared about Gandhi, Solzhenitsyn, Mandela.
We placed sanctions against the countries that threatened or imprisoned dissidents, and we got some positive results.
Human rights are the sine qua non of every democracy.
But human rights don’t matter to Trump. They’re just an obstacle to the finaodeals he lives for.
12
@abigail49
Because if our nation cannot stand up in the world and say our First Amendment Freedom of the Press is something precious and that all press should be protected, then you have lost sight of what our democracy once meant as a “beacon of light “ in the world
Forget the Saudi royalties, focus on our own leaders!
Donald Trump is taking great care of himself.
He has gained extreme wealth over the last three decades. He has become tremendeously popular during that time too.
The problem is that his gains came at expense of our country.
His personal wealth has been created thanks to the radical tax cuts and exploding national debt.
His personal popularity was based on extreme polarization of America and spread of “us versus them” mentality.
Making America indebted and divided is no way of making her great again.
12
This is a very unsatisfactory column. The basic problem is that the murdered has disappeared. At least Friedman does not call him a journalist because he knows better. He was an intelligence agent for many years and deeply involved in the great game in southern Afghanistan. He was close to the old regime and left when the reformer came in.
It cannot be a coincidence that this occurred precisely when the American "pastor" was released and shortly before a summit with Putin that will concentrate on Afghanistan and perhaps the division of Iraq into spheres under the control of the Ottomans and the Persians.
If we really are going to follow the Biden plan in Iraq and Afghanistan, Khashoggi was really a man who had to go. He knew too much about our relations with Pakistan, the Pashtuni, and Bin Laden--and not only our relations.
The question is why the murder and murderer were so deliberately visible--and it took sheer genius to figure out the best conceivable way to make it as visible as possible. In the intelligence world, it is simple enough to have heart attacks on neutral grounds and that path was consciously avoided.
The most rational answer is that Khashoggi is alive and is
being given a new identity to disappear--and that he was a willing participant. He certainly made the visibility especially clear.
Of course, the world is not rational, and most probably someone is signalling something to someone or someones. The question is who and whom .
3
@Jerry Hough
Occam's Razor says 'nah'.
For seemingly forever, Thomas Friedman has spread the gospel of Silicon Valley, arguing that its technology makes the world flatter and leads to greater global collaboration through outsourcing, open sourcing, supply chaining, and offshoring. Perhaps in open societies
But just the opposite in repressive societies. One need only look at China as an example. China's Great Firewall has been used to censor unfavorable speech. China can monitor web traffic to learn the identities of dissidents. And it can now use AI-based facial recognition to find those dissidents in public places.
Silicon Valley technology won't lead to modernization in Saudi Arabia, It will give MBS the tools for even greater repression.
12
It’s true that we have an interest in Khashoggi’s saga, but it’s noteworthy how small a percentage of the world’s population seems to acknowledge sharing that interest. Yet just about everyone on this third rock who pays attention to the news on his smartphone, in a far more universal cynicism, is wondering whether all the attention lavished by the world’s press on Khashoggi’s murder would be so outraged and intense if Khashoggi had NOT been a journalist himself, but, say … Garry Kasparov. After all, to fellow journalists there’s a certain nimbus that envelops an expat and apostate Saudi opinion writer for the WaPost that doesn’t quite envelop a Russian dissident cum former chess grandmaster. But there aren’t THAT many journalists in the world. There probably are more manufacturing line workers in prophylactic factories.
No man is an island, 1066 and all that, and the world SHOULD universally condemn a political assassination; but Khashoggi’s murder is less astonishing to many (some, I’m sure, were only wondering when and how it would happen) than MDS’s apparent cluelessness that he could ally himself with the West and get away with it with impunity. That innocence bespeaks an enbubblement that is downright dangerous.
When human beings reveal their eternal enslavement to interests, I can’t help laughing uproariously and cynically. We now hear that Erdogan’s and Turkey’s outrage over the incident may have been intended to extort low-interest loans from Saudi Arabia, …
3
… and that enticing intelligence on the murder from the Turks no longer is available as the deals are cut. The shade of Khashoggi probably is laughing, as well … from somewhere in a rather disjointed state, floating as Roger Cohen puts it, as “body parts on the Bosporus”. And thinking that maybe he should have bribed consular officials in Istanbul through intermediaries for those divorce papers.
But Tom’s general disgust, particularly with Trump, while predictable also is excessive. We have interests in the Middle East and to be a player there we need a major Muslim nation-state as ally. They’re all pretty much awful by our standards – doesn’t matter much which you pick. Unless we’re going to abandon an alliance in which we and they have invested gawdawful resources for decades, and forgo defending our interests in the region, then this MBS problem will need to be fixed. Trump is trying to do that. Let the man do his job. But appointing a canny ambassador to Saudi Arabia, as Tom advises, SHOULD be part of doing that job.
4
@Richard Luettgen
My dear Mr. Luettgen:
Kashoggi's "saga" as you so wryly call it, has ended.
And while Turkey may or may not be playing footsie with the Saudis, the issue remains:
How do we here in America respond to this travesty by one of our so-called "allies?"
3
@Watchdog2
We express our displeasure and explain WHY by our lights it's unacceptable. We make it clear that we BOTH have interests in maintaining a close and mutually beneficial alliance, but that to do that we understand that we must understand how our partners think and what they believe, while they must make efforts to do the same with us. They must understand that there are redlines with us that must be considered by our allies.
I'm QUITE sure that this is PRECISELY what Trump's people are discussing with MBS and his people. And I'd be very surprised if we saw a repetition of an act so blatant and offensive to Western sensibilities.
I'd also be very surprised if Saudi Arabia simply rolled over on its back and embraced our values and convictions.
Standing up for ideals even if that leads to near term failures will make us a better nation than standing up for oil and deals and failing on our ideals and values.
17
The siege of the Grand Mosque in Mecca in 1979 is arguably the most important event in the Middle East between the Yom Kippur war and 9/11.
Yet it is almost never discussed.
The implications, an intense embrace of Wahabism by the Saud family to ward off more conservative elements, is a direct line to Bin Laden and Saudi funding of Afghan mujahadeen.
Tom is half right, we need MBS for any shot at reforming Saudi Arabia and the region in general. But he's wrong that we need to censure him. MBS has been chastened by the media uproar, by not escalating this we let him save face while being more discreet about stifling dissent in the future.
4
@Arturo Murder is a capital crime in Saudi Arabia, the US and almost every other country. Censure is a joke.
There are a million starving children in Yemen you need to answer to for this comment. Or maybe you were being sarcastic...
It takes the outrage for this heinous crime to produce this kind of moral indignation? Where is everybody on the fact that entirely half of the Saudi population are treated like little kids? The ill-treatment of women in Saudi Arabia is the continuing crime here. Let's not forget that.
8
It is absurd to think that only this rogue crown prince can provide reform. Up until now Saudi kings have all been sons of al Saud. There will be a generational change with a new king regardless, which should lead to reforms. This crown prince has repeatedly demonstrated an authoritarian mean streak.
7
I am sorry, Thomas, that your apt distillation of the problem is not going to find a solution from America. Bush Jr was sure not the guy to do it, Obama for all his smarts clearly fell short in MidEast strategy and execution, and Trump is sure not one for anything other than a) the bottom line to American business, and b) political support of Israel. The long game, the subtle carrot and stick approach to achieving longterm objectives, the understanding of the next 5 moves ahead in the chess game, is not something Trump even seems capable of doing. I guess the American voter is also shortsighted and focused on getting a couple of good years in before we re-enter the dark ages. But Thomas, I applaud your formulation of the problem and solution.
6
@Will Hogan Bottom line to American business and support of the only democracy in the ME is in the long run good for American citizens so whats your point?
Mr. Friedman,
I reread your November 23, 2017 opinion piece on MBS, and urge everyone reading this opinion, published not even a year later, to do the same. I was looking for signs of "urging the Trump administration to draw redlines around his dark side," as you mention in your opinion today. I found a glowing review of MBS, including of the mass arrests he had undertaken in the name of fighting corruption, I found the passing mention of the Yemen humanitarian crisis and the seeming acceptance that the Saudi-led coalition was close to winning. The flaws of the Crown Prince you determined worthy of mention were (1) that MBS relies on a tight circle of advisers and (2) that he starts too many things and can't finish them all.
I think it would be best for you not to write about Saudi Arabia or the Middle East again until you admit you were seduced-- seduced by the promise of religious moderation, by a commitment to join the U.S. in combatting Iran, by the possibility of an Arab country building a relationship with Israel absent a political solution with the Palestinians, and possibly by an all-expenses-paid trip courtesy of the Crown Prince. You're not going to be able to offer sage advice about a solution without first recognizing you are, in fact, part of the problem.
435
@Concerned - You are absolutely on the money about Mr. Friedman. And what is this "vital U.S. interest" in challenging Iran. It's not in the "interest" of the U.S. people to go to war on Iran however much a war would delight the arms industry and Netanyahu. It is in the people's interest to stop wasting trillions defending tyranny all over the world. For more search for the Coalition to End the U.S.-Saudi Alliance
23
@Concerned
A comprehensive and well balanced (and well researched) critique that I hope TLF will read.
All of us get it wrong sometimes. The question is whether we learn from our mistakes!
7
@ConcernedWho actually cares what circumstances and experiences he had that led him (an honest man) to write that column. The facts are different now. And Friedman is now writing about these new facts, while restating the hope he had, and hoping there is indeed a way around this dilemma.
Ad hominem attacks about who said what last year, last decade, last century, are simply ad hominem attacks. Ad hominem means, "to the person", not to the idea. Great crowd to be in.
Mr. Friedman,
What would it take you to admit the "reforms" you speak of were a sham orchestrated to hone the image of the crown prince?
Saudi Arabia is not where we will find meaningful reforms to Islam and is an impediment, not an ally, in fighting extremism. Saudi Arabia is not a nation you can ever call an "ally".
You continue to rationalize the actions of an abhorrent regime. It might seem to you that you are being fair-minded, but to all of us, it is clear that you picked a side, and you are not willing to reconsider your decision.
Soon the blood shall be on your hands.
23
Questions I don't hear. why is Turkey blowing the whistle? Favor for MBS opponents in SA? Feels like we are getting one dimensional picture of three dimensional chess match. Every time we stick our nose in that region it gets smacked.
8
Trump has an ambassador in Saudia Arabia. His name is Jared Kushner and has a direct line to Trump without any interference from state. Power, $$ and Mideast conflicts are a heady mix for a naif. Should we be worried, yes very.
39
Friedman makes the following astounding statement:
"I believe 9/11 was the worst thing to happen to America in my lifetime."
That is utterly preposterous. Worse, it is insulting to the 58,000+ Americans who died in Vietnam, to the 153,000 wounded in Vietnam, and to the 750+ POWs (100+ of whom died in captivity). It also insults their families. And those are just the numbers of casualties. The damage that the Vietnam War did to the fabric of our nation is incalculable.
His statement clearly indicates Friedman's outrageous value priorities, which makes his arguments and conclusions in this article utterly worthless and undeserving of consideration.
57
I guess he should have said the worst thing on US soil. But I think the Iraq war was probably just as disastrous for the Iraqi people as the Vietnam war was for the Vietnamese. We tend to bring disasters onto others - 9/11 was the shoe on the other foot, for once. We learned nothing from it, from getting a taste of what we do to others.
@Errol
The Viet Nam was a self-inflicted trajedy.
Not so, the events of 9/11
2
@Stephanie Wood
You seem more concerned for the suffering of people of other nations than for the death and suffering of American men. That is your prerogative. But Friedman's statement was not what he thought was the worst thing to happen to other nations. It was what he thought was the worst thing to happen TO America.`
The Khasoggi murder is an outrage, but how can we explain all the attention to the death of this one man at the hands of the Saudis versus the virtual silence about thousands of Yemenis who have died in a brutal, senseless war and millions are at risk of dying of faminw, all thanks to the Saudis. Where is proportionality?
46
@George
I suspect that they explanation for the special attention for Khashoggi is that he was a journalist. Just as cops do, journalists pursue their selfish mutual interests and protect each other to whatever extent they can.
Khashoggi suffered a cruel and brutal injustice. But that occurs to many, many people in all nations of the world, especially in despotic nations. But it is a victim who is a journalist that the journalists got to bat for.
6
@George
And on the home front, what about all the Children separated from Mothers by our border patrol? Albeit a nasty distraction, the Saudis distract from America’s day-by-day shameful moral erosion.
1
I want to like Dawn of Princeton, NJ’s comment one thousand times. I would add the following:
1.The US State Department reportedly just received today $100 million from the Saudi government; how much money does Friedman get from Saudi Arabia?;
2. I wonder how hurt the survivors of the Khashoggi family feel by the description “saga” for what should be described as a crime against humanity, which deserves global condemnation, including through boycotts and prosecution?; and
3. When will Western countries (and their sometimes dangerously flawed leaders and influencers) learn that their Islamophobia makes them erroneously think that the MBS types are the best leaders the Muslim world can produce contrary to the reality of leaders on the ground throughout the Muslim world who believe in upholding human rights?
8
Not crazy about MBS and I would be shocked to learn that he was innocent of this. But I do not think it fair to judge him by the same standards we judge western politician’s. He is the heir to the throne in an absolute monarchy. One of the last. And it is not really an ancient lineage-sort of stretches back to WWI. Not much older than the Shah of Iran’s dynasty was when Iranian dissidents led by religious conservatives protesting the Shah’s westernizing reforms, unseated him. The Saudi religious conservatives are likely not more easily dealt with. MBS may truly believe that his country’s culture has to evolve. He may sincerely want to bring Saudi Arabia into the 21st Century for the benefit of all of his subjects. But looking at what has happened to monarchs elsewhere, in Iran, Iraq and Egypt, MBS may reasonably believe that he needs both the force of reason and terror to succeed and to make Saudi Arabia a respected, normal country. Oh, and not get killed in the process. The question becomes, if allowing one dissident to go unpunished will reduce the prince’s authority and embolden his enemies making him less likely to succeed in modernizing his nation than what is the right thing to do.
What about the religious conservatives in THIS country? Some Americans would like to have some westernized reform right here in the USA.
4
Don't forget that WE put the Shah in power, and he was a despot. That was to protect "OUR" oil interests in Iran, when Moussadegh wanted to reform Iran and nationalize the oil. The US is seldom on the side of real reformers. How did we treat Allende and Lumumba?
@Fred Shapiro It's not murder. Murder is ALWAYS wrong.
Thomas, you make so much good sense; you always have. I just wish that someone—anyone—in the Trump administration would read you. November is approaching--hopefully it will be a November to remember.
2
With trump valuing the arms sale over the value of human life, that of Khashoggi, the people of Yemen that the Saudis slaughter every day with arms from us, the activists he has jailed, the people he has beheaded, he has devalued what America used to stand for into "I got the deal that everyone else wanted". This is no deal. Why are we selling arms to the same cultural mindset that launched the 9-11 attacks. Trump wants this deal because there is something in it for him. Hotels in the new and improved Saudi Arabia maybe? The Saudi prince had his own mother taken away to another location, away from his aged and ailing father, "because she did not support me enough". What kind of fiend separates his parents at the end of their lives because of his ego. Twitter was pulsating with lies about Khashoggi to demonize the victim;then there were threats, that the Saudis will find you no matter where you are if you work against them.Does not sound like folks you can work with. Of course they murdered Khashoggi, why else send 15 trained Saudi assassins to fly in and out. For trump to play along makes him complicit. Trump's authoritarian attacks on our free press & journalists make him complicit with an unruly mind to interpret trump's behavior as hey, this is ok. It is Not Okay. Just say No to the Prince, Say No to the Arms Deal, No to attending Davos in the Desert, for an unhinged, barbaric murderer.
18
Not one word about Yemen or our role in killing civilians there. Nothing about our invasion of Iraq, applauded by Friedman at the time in the most childish possible way on the Charlie Rose Show. And Friedman is far from alone— obviously a great many in the Western political and media elite place far more value on the life of this one man ( and yes, his murder was a ghastly crime) than on the lives of a hundred thousand children starved to death because of the war we support in Yemen. Nevermind the Saudi elite — we have a serious morality deficit right here in the US.
We need to have decent humane intelligent people running our own government and no, I don’t mean this as a criticism of Trump alone, though he is easily the worst President we have had in generations. We need people who would have refused to assist MBS in bombing children and yes, we need columnists with enough of a moral compass to think that bombing children is both immoral and stupid. If we had such people in government and writing our opinion columns, then we would still face a tough dangerous world. But we and the world would be better off and to the extent we were hated, it would be by people with no legitimate reason for hating us. Wouldn’t that be nice?
32
We could stop the war in Yemen tomorrow. Stop refueling the Saudi planes mid-air. The US has a lot of blood on it’s hands.
1
@Donald
Well we do have Nicholas Kristof
Trump certainly lives up to the Talmud saying:
“ Those who are kind to the cruel will be cruel to the kind.”
36
Prince Bone Saw, may I introduce Cadet Bone Spur. You two have much in common. Now, how about a little sword dance to seal the deal.
30
What can we do? Give the Saud family a choice: give up power, move to London or Dubai and keep your money OR, get overthrown, your funds frozen and live in Guantanamo. Either way, we keep the oil. There is NO difference between the Sauds and the ruling clique in Iran; both harbor an extreme version of Islam, wage war in the Middle East, mistreat their citizens.
3
Actually, it is their country, their oil and none of our business.
5
@Fred Shapiro
No, actually it is not 'their' country. Saudi Arabia was created by by western powers and the royal family were just herders who agreed to be USA puppets in exchange for their oil.
We made the problem, so we should fix it. Invade, overthrow and annex. Wipe Mecca off the map and grit our teeth for the year or so the Muslim world explodes in response. But they will soon exhaust their rage and come to grips with the fact that their 'holy' land is gone forever. Good riddance.
Saudi madrassahs which spread extremist Wahabism are responsible for global terrorism as we know it. Saudi money has sponsored global terrorism. 15 of the 19 hijackers in 9/11 were Saudi.
We condemn Russia and China for far less. Time to put our selective championing of human rights and freedom of speech aside and to call them out for what they are. Put away the kid gloves and take the monstrous Saudi regime to task now.
19
They ARE getting away with it! Immorality-Money (Arms sales) We have blood on our hands.
4
How important to the U.S. is Saudi Arabia strategically? Militarily? Its hatred of Iran? Its oil? Its wealth?
They torture, murder, and chop up Jamal Khashoggi. They regularly hold beheading ceremonies.
They were directly involved in 9/11.
When you marry for money, you earn every penny.
Sometimes in blood.
38
trump and Kushner benefit greatly from the Saudis.
Wealthy Saudis buy trump properties at inflated prices
and have assisted kushner when he flails about for help.There may be more than even this.
We cannot look to this president, or his Congress
(his handmaidens) for moral leadership on this issue. They are compromised.
We must rely on our good judgement as American citizens, that revere and protect the freedom of the press, democracy, and a sense of justice. The very fundamentals of our Republic.
Jamal Kashoggi was an American resident, a valued journalist at the Washington Post, and a global citizen/ patriot/dissenter.
We, America, used to try to be the watchdog of the world. Insisting that our "partners" adhere to these basic universal principles:
That all people deserve to be free, governed by rules of Law, and offered opportunity.
We have a choice here, with Saudia Arabia.
How, and what we choose, defines us as a people.
13
Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic!
5
@ed
Trump? Yes. MBS? Yes. Rogue Killers? Yes.
Two years into Trump's presidency and he still hasn't appointed an ambassador to Saudi Arabia. During all his threats against North Korea, Trump didn't bother to appoint an ambassador to South Korea. There are hundreds of federal jobs left unfilled, including ambassadorships, because Trump just can't be bothered. He's too busy tweeting, eating in bed, golfing, watching TV, going to rallies, and kissing up to tyrants to do any presidential work.
29
Of course it was not a “rogue” operation when a 15 person hit team with saws showed up to conduct, slice up, and transport away the evidence of torture and murder.
It was a Saudi sanctioned brutal hit job.
But please, let’s also be clear about something else: Those Saudi butchers were not “cowards”. It is incorrect to call them, or terrorists, or mass murders, or abusers “cowards”.
Rather, it is intentionally brutal and evil butchery.
5
Let's get out of Saudi Arabia.
These are really bad people. It was young Saudis dedicated to Wahabism who flew the planes on 9/11.
We owe these people nothing.
Let someone else worry about helping this corrupt country 'reform' and sell them weapons.
Money isn't everything. It may be to Donald Trump and MBS but are they people you would ever trust with anything dear to you?
These people don't have a conscience.
We're temporarily stuck with Donald Trump. But we can walk away from the Saudis.
19
What Dilemma?
Invade, overthrow and annex.
Saudi Arabia is the definition of the "Radical Islamic" regime, and the world would be a much better place if it were wiped off the map (as it was for all eternity until it was artificially created in the 20th century).
I've opposed every American war since Vietnam, as we were fighting under false pretenses. Not this time. We should use our much vaunted military to finally do some good in this world and send these petrosheiks packing back to their historic nomadic lifestyle.
REGIME CHANGE NOW!
2
"... I am sickened to watch my own president and his secretary of state partnering with Saudi officials to concoct a cover story …"
This is the government the minority (60 million) voted for. Also, this is the president that the GOP members of the house and senate will absolutely not hold to account for anything.
The algorithm is simple: fetch a balance scale, place a 110 billion weapons contract on one side, and assignation of a journalist on the other side. Which carries more weight? What talks the loudest? I think we all know the answer to that one. So, we have yet another generation of assassins.
ps. letting women drives cars is moderation? Next thing you, they won't have to wear bags over their heads. Oh, the children, they will have to see their mothers faces in public!
7
I wish Trump would appoint Tom Friedman ambassador to Saudi Arabia, but it will never happen.
The Saudis made their pact with the extremists when they came to power, long before anyone cared about oil. Even after Aramco was founded, the Saudis ruled as the Bedouin tribes had always ruled. Reforms like Friedman wants requires a consensus amongst those governed. People who follow three thousand year old cultures only somewhat revised by a religious prophet thirteen centuries ago are not going to accept a lot of changes gracefully. MBS may impose behaviors because of his authoritarian authority but it won’t sink in.
The way to reform is prevented by the insular society that prevents people from opening their minds. To open the society requires that they give us their insular ways.
Trump and his family, Silicon Valley and defense contractors are in deep. Oil flows and the price affect politics in the US and elsewhere.
Righteous indignation over this crime or somehow thinking encouraging Saudi reforms will put a damper on the Middle East dumpster fire is floridly delusional. Sorry, Mr. Friedman.
Impeach Trump, jail Kushner and the rest, become oil independent, get out of the Middle East mess, let the Saudis implode; that’s a real fantasy but fodder for our political liberal freaks.
Time for the next news cycle.
6
I guess it never occurred to you that MBS was just a pretty young face on this terrible regime. You still seem not to believe it, and wonder how we can do justice and help them save face. Amazing.
6
Seriously, could we trust anybody who is a tool of the biggest tool in the world? Anybody appointed by Trump as ambassador to Saudi Arabia isn't to be trusted.
6
Whoever is new to power is always harsh. Aeschylus
6
Trump’s rhetoric against “Moslem terrorists” should apply to the super-rich minority which includes MSB. As always, he brings hypocrisy to a new level.
9
It is more important to block MBS, who increasingly appears to model Valdimir Putin's tactics, than to slow reform in Saudi Arabia.
Reform bought at the price of murdering journalists is not reform Saudi Arabia, nor we, nor the world, can afford.
15
Trump's thoughtless parroting of the Saudi cover-up was indeed sickening, but let's not forget that George W. Bush's actions as regards the Saudis was no less corrupt, and no less sickening.
Drug addicts always appease their dealers. Drug addicts always lie on behalf of their dealers. America, Bush, and Trump are all addicts, just in slightly different ways.
12
I think we should start getting the oil we need from Iran and other sources, and simply boycott Saudi Arabia. Let them rot in their desert, and forget arms sales; we should not be selling arms anyhow.
17
I'm afraid Mr. Friedman, you have been beguiled by MBS. There never were reforms only hookah smoke and fancy mirrors. Seems now you must cover your tracks since you came out earlier as a champion of his so called reforms.
22
The Saudi reforms are illusory. Letting women drive, showing movies, and whatever other superficial changes M.B.S thinks he can get away without ticking off the real power behind the scenes are nothing. The Muslim hardliners actually running the country may yet themselves revolt against M.B.S. after this amateurish catastrophe, and anoint yet another idiot savant to be the next 'Crowned Prince'.
8
I am reminded that the Saudis are nothing but a "tribe with a flag," as Tony Horwitz so elegantly put it in his book "Bagdad Without a Map." In a battle of the tough guys, Mr. Erdogan seems to have the goods here. We don't need their oil now. We don't need their nothing burger defense purchases. So why is Mr. Trump defending them? Do they own him too?
49
Oh my god Tom. You wrote the most embarrassingly breathless hagiography of MBS and now you’re trying to pretend like you didn’t hitch your wagon to to his “Davos in the Desert/school bus air strikes/new apps for the same old kingdom” grift.
Saudi politics might be a little out of your league- maybe you should ask your cabdriver for his take?
61
In general, the commentators in this post have written intelligent, thoughtful comments, giving me hope for this country. I wish you all had the power to make decisions and address the serious issues raised here and elsewhere. Thank you all.
9
I simply don't find Friedman credible on this topic. MBS' letting women drive and the shifting around of Aramco's accounting so that the royal family is simply paid in a different structure than it is today does not constitute reform. If Friedman wants to root for something, he should root for Saudi's transformation into a true constitutional democracy or the demise of the royal family's power. The current regime -- where twenty thousand people hoard massive wealth while 20 million others have almost nothing -- will fall. It is not a matter of 'if' but 'when'. Afterwards, when the thousands of royal family members have absconded to their homes in London or Switzerland, all the while guarded by US soldiers as their planes roll down the runway and leave the Arabian Peninsula for the last time, Friedman and my other fellow Americans like him will have to account for how they tolerated and justified the House of Saud for as long as they did.
67
Has he ever been right about anything?
5
@Anson Baer
Americans liberated Kuwait while the "princes" waited it out in grand hotels--why not guard their planes when they leave the sinking ship of state? It's what the American military seems to do best in the Middle East.
2
"So, once again, what do we do?"
The right thing. The moral thing. Always.
Looking the other way for the sake of political or economic expediency is never the answer. That path leads to eventual ruin.
It's not a question of attempting to be a leader or exemplar to the world. In fact, perhaps the only action needed is divestment. Divestment and condemnation.
You either condemn or condone. You can't have both. You shouldn't want to have both.
And, by the way, failure to act in a real and honest way puts the US squarely in the same category as all the other fascist and despotic regimes past, present and future.
Do the right thing.
42
@Mike Bonnell
Given our history of CIA torture and assassinations and Bush-Cheney's warmongering in Iraq--what is "the right thing" to do? More amoral hypocrisy?
5
The headline is liking watching the contortionist at the circus. Absent the traditional "costume" and headwear for their photo ops more people might figure out that there is nothing special about the Saudis other than sitting on a large, ever less valuable pool of oil (check the IPO), and a nice barter arrangement trading said oil for some surplus weapons we have lying around.
8
@charles Oil has been and remains the key commodity that runs the world for the last 150 years. Oil is power. Like it or not these guys get to exercise that power until the oil runs out.
2
@Dan
The oil won't run out. It will be made superfluous by electric cars. Oil fuels transportation, not electricity which is fueled by natural gas, coal and increasingly wind and solar. It isn't necessary to be all renewable, just electric vehicles are enough to reduce the power of oil.
Of course, moving to renewables will help keep the planet habitable, which is also a good thing. Oh, and nature has imposed a deadline. It's not a negotiable deadline either.
Kind of a win-win.
The Saudi system can't be reformed, it's a slave plantation, family owned, where a majority of the population is foreign workers. Plus, it's the main source of Islamic terrorism; the principle source of funds for Islamic fundamentalist movements. We don't need to reform it, it needs to be abolished. We do that by not buying their oil and not selling them arms.
The Trump administration's alliance with Saudi Arabia against Iran is a historically large foreign policy blunder. And worse, it seems to be motivated by Trump's personal greed rather than by any perceived national interest.
213
@PNBlanco Everything you write is 100% true, however, when the house of Saud falls, it will make the current situation in Syria look like a minor civic disagreement. Do you want your pain now, or later?
4
@PNBlanco: the US's cozy arrangement with the Saudi royal family dates back many decades -- long, long before Trump -- the Bushes were besties with the Saudis -- and what did Obama do to rein in their power? Oh right. Nothing.
@PNBlanco
The alliance with the Saudis is a bipartisan blunder for decades.
I see the inner capitalist in Mr. Friedman wanting to oversee the killing of Khashoggi for avoiding an instant mess in Middle East. But the intellectual forward looking Friedman says no.
With 9/11, the US paid back the cheap Saudi oil many many times in enhanced war and security costs. Saudi Arab will collapse and create a huge mess for decades in the Persian gulf - it's not a matter of whether, but when.
It is time to gradually cut ties with this country and gain energy independent.
13
The whole column premised on the dubious notion that Washington cares, or has ever cared, about human rights violations by an ally such as Saudi Arabia.
29
Friedman has promoted MBS. He has promoted wars in Middle East for the exclusive destruction of nations, that have bankrupted the US. He sees ME through a narrow vision and in that he is arguing that MBS is a better option. There is no need for options, the Middle East is what it is; brought to the word stage by oil, but lacking strong civilizational roots.
44
Mr. Friedman’s lunge towards a false object choice of weakness, nutty MBS or nutty Ulema, is distressing. USA has been injured by the horrific execution of its journalist. That must be the inflection point for advancing human civilization towards realizing its universal declarations of human rights (which, objectively, MBS has done little to advance). USA must not guess, cower, or be indecisive if the leadership promised by POTUS DJT to solve Middle East geopolitical instability is to be realized, but rather USA must lead by leveraging its position to dictate available options. Irrespective of where the blame may lie, the choice offered must be either 1) the removal of MBS accompanied by the elimination of the Ulema from public discourse, or 2) to allow MBS to stay, but only accompanied by immediate and drastic separation of church and state, including the total abolition of Ulema, Wahabbist and other hardliner dogma with attendant resolute sanction akin to the decisive quieting of the Ikhwan threat to geopolitical stability in January 1930.
3
@A. T.
He's a WP "journalist". So what? Does that count for something more than Obama droning American citizens in foreign countries?
4
If, as Mr. Friedman says, "I believe 9/11 was the worst thing to happen to America in my lifetime," then what just happened in Istanbul to what America used to mean to itself and the rest of the world must arguably be considered to be equal in that category. Because while only one innocent human being with strong U.S. ties was ghoulishly slaughtered and dismembered within the walls of a foreign embassy, that single life represented as much of what America was supposed to stand for as were the thousands of innocent victims who perished on 9/11. We went to war on 9/12 as we did on December 8th, yet now our leaders seem chillingly aloof, unwilling and unable to do anything more than believe the lies they've been told, then look the other way and conduct their business as usual.
Vote.
33
Thoughts. When are thoughts not enough?
That could have been any of us.
The only thing left is faith.
Improve the constructs (which I am sure is what Koshiggi wanted.
How about a massive oil money contribution to the Committe to Protect Journalists?
5
"I have three thoughts on the Jamal Khashoggi saga", too:
First, Khashoggi was as naïve as a Russian serf when Lenin and Trotsky showed up to have walked into that embassy, even in Turkey--didn’t seem to know his subject very well, i.e., WP is not the Pentagon but the CIA; second, it's no different from Obama droning American citizens in foreign countries; and third, how should the world punish American citizens for Bush-Cheney killing so many innocent Iraqis and turning the Middle East into a firestorm?
What to do if you're morally superior to the rest of the countries in the world even if you assassinated a cohort of foreign leaders along the way. If deep-swamp arrogance is any measure, we ought to work "MBS" over the way Putin is being worked over for his "amoral" misdeeds.
"Should we all overlook" what our leadership, during the last two decades, has brought upon the world?
"We must not, and, in fact, we cannot." Unless, of course, you’re Mr. Friedman.
9
@Alice's Restaurant Your first statement is very unfair. Wasn't Khashoggi given assurance he could enter the embassy without fear of reprisal? The reason why this death has caused such international outrage is because it violates the most fundamental rule of civilization — that embassies must remain safety zones, with diplomats and everyone else protected by international agreement.
After Pearl Harbor, admidst our rage at the Japanese Empire, its diplomats were able to leave the country unmolested.
2
@HKGuy
If Obama could drone American citizens in foreign lands--why shouldn't the Saudis be permitted to knock off a few that they don't particularly like? Seems moral hypocrisy is the greater sin here. But who's counting--not the CIA or the deep-swamp, it seems.
Saudi Arabia is a powderkeg. Donald Trump is a match.
Nothing good will come of this.
America will move closer to authoritarianism.
Your vote is more critical now than ever in our lifetimes if you want to preserve a nation of the people, by the people, for the people.
45
Thomas,
There is no dilemma there never has been Trump speaks for you and the rest of your greedy selfish amoral minions.
It was in August that Chrystia Freeland our Foreign Minister and former journalist called out the Saudis on their treatment of journalist. The World knew the Saudis were jailing, torturing, and murdering journalists.
Your Saudi friend was outraged that a woman would tell the truth of a barbaric patriarchal theocracy. Our Ambassador was expelled Saudi nationals we told to leave Canada immediately.
The World stood by silently except for a few states that backed the Saudis. states like the Philippines.
I don't claim to be a journalist but I remember the poem by Martin Niemoller First they Came for the Socialists.
Canadian historian, philosopher and two time head of PEN International John Ralston Saul knows all about petroleum and press freedom he would no doubt tell you first they came for the journalists.
9
"But now M.B.S.’s government also has Jamal’s blood on its hands. Should we all overlook that as President Trump is doing? We must not, and, in fact, we cannot."
Let's just add it to the list of moral and ethical unraveling that have taken place since this twisted grifter took over the GOP.
A man/child unmoored from any semblance of core principles except more power -more greed - and more "me".
All cloaked in a transparent attempt to be perceived as the man of the "people" (AND has any propaganda ever worked more effectively?)
Never again will anyone think "that couldn't happen in America."
Threre are enough stupid angry xenophobic racists and demagogues here to abide any atrocity - Trump proved that!
Including the dissapearance of an American journalist and his dismemberment linked unequivalently to our present malevolent tyrant.
9
Agree--something must be done!!
Where were Mr. Friedman, our media, our state department, and our presidents when Saudis were " building mosques and schools from London to Indonesia and from Morocco to Kabul?" Apparently they ignored it because they thought it wasn't USA's problem. When 9-11 was executed by Saudis they forgave them because of the oil supplies controlled by the Saudis, and their tacit support of Israel. Now they are mad this week, but next week they will find another reason to get onto Saudi lap.
There is no hope for us stupids!
13
"The most significant reform process underway anywhere in the Middle East today is in Saudi Arabia,"
Friedman wrote in the opening line of his story in November 2017.
Today the same Thomas Friedman is writing :
"Hey, maybe it was all just a fake to cover for a power grab and win Western support"
IS this the real "Arab spring" in Saudi Arabia we have been waiting for?
The Prince of Saudi Arabia has made a fool of Thomas Friedman and many others.
MBS is not a reformer, he is a bully.
66
What an awful injustice, the savage destruction of a journalist for doing his job, informing us about the affairs of Saudi Arabia, and no doubt some criticism that Salman seems highly allergic to...as evidenced not long ago with Canada; and now, with the outright murder and dismembering of Jamal Khashoggi. What a stupid crime, supposedly to appease the delicate ego of M.B.S. And worst, Trump's appeasement, trying to defend his despot friend from rightful attacks, two weeks after a heinous and cowardly killing of a courageous man, for seeking to share the news, and the truth. Given that our ugly American in-chief has been calling the press 'the enemy of the people', it ought to come as no surprise that Trump's brutish example encouraged Salman to take things in his hands, make Jamal disappear with impunity. Or at least that's what seems the case thus far. Diplomacy for Salman is akin to Trump's ideas, a waste of time when compared to the 'delicacy' of brute force. Why do we think Trump has been so deferential towards dictators, however bloody their hands?
14
Remind me why we love Saudi Arabia and hate Iran?
511
@10009
Or Russia, for that matter.
1
It has something to do with George Bush, John Bolton and Iran-Contra.
3
That’s a great question. We out to try to figure out how to work with the Iranians and ditch the Saudis. If we were to play a long game in Iran, there’s a good chance that the US could end up with a far better ally than Saudi Arabia.
8
Whatever we say about Saudi ruling family in the press, our government will not touch Saudi royal family. The simple reason is that Saudi government still sells oil in dollars. If Saudi decides to sell oil in different currencies, our dollars will lost its value and popularity fast. Both China, India, Japan and S. Korea would love to buy oil with other kind of currency. Trump and his staff know this very well. They can talk in public, but will do nothing in reality. You can count on that.
6
But it would help our exports!
"But you can’t fix stupid."
Yup. May I add
. . . "and you can't argue with crazy" ?
"Rogue assassins?" Reminded me of the rogue would be rapist who most certainly not Kavanaugh.
And here we are immersed in crazy stupid events.
7
Mr Friedman is indulging in a spot of doublethink. On the one hand, MBS is a bad guy with blood on his hands. On the other hand he's a good guy, a reformer who wants to break the religious stranglehold on his kingdom.
I'm sorry, but this does not pass the smell test. The House of Saud and the Wahhabi extremists feed off and protect each other as equally disruptive forces to their region and to the world. The 9/11 attack would not have been possible without either one of those principals. Saudi Arabia has more than its share of hypocrites who preach their strict religious code at home but don't hesitate to indulge in western excesses when abroad. In the end (and just as in the United States, but much more so) religious extremism is merely a cloak for wielding political power. Religion and state are effectively one and the same in Saudi Arabia, and for Mr Friedman to think otherwise is wishful thinking.
55
"...our most important national interest in Saudi Arabia... is Islamic religious reform, which can come only from Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam’s holiest cities, Mecca and Medina."
Correct about our national interest in Islamic reform but wrong about Saudi Arabia.
Islamic religious reform is least likely to come from the historical center in Mecca. It is far more likely to come from the edges of the religion than the center, where other cultural influences mix. The Muslim diaspora in Europe, North America and Asia will be far more important to reforming global Islam.
Before oil became globally important just over a century ago, Saudi Arabia was a Bedouin tribal culture, literally thousands of years behind most of the world in civic evolution. Empowering Saudi royalty was the perfect solution for Western countries hungry for oil. While Saudi oil is still important today, it is far less so now and even less in the next 20 years, as alternative energy grows.
US interests in the Middle East are declining rapidly, which is why the Trump Administration is fighting a rear guard action to keep Saudi money flowing our way and especially into the Trump-Kushner real estate empire.
Lesson: Never elect a real estate guy as US President.
115
@Look Ahead
Nice analysis.
Mr. Friedman omits one crucial component of the "cynical bargain" struck between the US and the Saudis: that the latter agree to perpetually finance American deficit spending by using their oil profits to purchase US debt.
The Saudis, along with the Chinese and the Japanese, form a three-legged stool propping up the over-leveraged federal budget. With China reducing its Treasury holdings, the Saudis find themselves with more bargaining power vis-a-vis the US.
12
A thug is a thug. Anytime you support a thug you have to be prepared to support or excuse everything the thug does. Are you prepared for that? What makes you think this is the last incident/atrocity that this thug will do? Tom, do you want really want to be writing columns supporting this man in any way shape or form?
23
Friedman, apologist for SA and no mention of Yemen, and no mention of US involvement in backing SA in Yemen. An unapologetic mouthpiece for the elite and US empire. We little people just don't get your detachment from the real world.
112
Reforms like murdering journalists?
15
Thanks for an insightful, candid, comment. But you leave us ... nowhere, man. Regime change is necessary, except that America cannot make that happen, as we are futilely trying to do in Iran. Trump is making America a second-rate power, with little more power in the Middle East than England. And just watch China move into Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states and even Iran. Look at the trade numbers and tell us what you see, Mr. Friedman.
1
What reforms? Reforms in name only are not reforms.
7
One more blood stained approval,
One more moral removal
The Pseudo-Potus
Keeps us on notice
The texture of a nudnick's behoval.
It goes on and on and on
A torrent and not a soupcon,
A life under Trump
To be wedged in a dump
And constantly unloaded upon.
25
According to the UN High Commissioner on Human Rights, the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen, with the help of weapons supplied by the United States, has been responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians there, giving rise to one of the great human rights tragedies in the world today. Why is it that Mr. Friedman's analysis of our interests in Saudi policies takes no notice of this important fact?
135
All the reforms of MBS were window dressing. Saudi Arabia is a nation of people most of whom are steeped in obscurantism, and is ruled by absolutists. The manner in which they treat migrant labour and the way they have promoted radical Islam ( and still do, while opposing ISIS) shows their true character. The world should give up its toxic addiction to oil which has given undeserving riches to this kingdom. There will never be any true reform in Saudi Arabia. Such nations have no moral claim to survival.
84
You know what this really shows is the stupidity and lack of judgement of the Saudi Crown Prince.
Who cares if Jamal Khashoggi complained about the reforms and how they were being carried out? The money men certainly could care less. Instead in a ham-fisted way, the Crown Prince showed that he was unfit to wield power by having Jamal executed and turned him into a martyr. To be a ruler, you need to know when to use power and when not to. When to realize a true threat, and when to ignore what might be irritating. The Prince probably has lived his whole life with everybody deferring to him. Now he's finding out that on the world stage, he's not such a hotshot.
147
@Mike Just like trump
7
@Mike
"The Prince probably has lived his whole life with everybody deferring to him." Like Trump! Like Jared!
4
Mr. Friedman - several years ago I read an opinion you wrote about a mourner driving a gas guzzling Hummer to the funeral of a US soldier killed in Iraq after 9/11. That message was loud and clear. We deplore atrocities and inhuman actions of other countries as long as it doesn't interfere with whatever profit game is going on and whatever doesn't cause us any inconvenience. Trump wants to sell arms to the Saudis - will we some day find those same arms used against us? That has a certain whiff of history repeating itself.
31
@4merNYer
Just like the arms we provided Afghanistan against Russia were used against us by Osama bin Laden and Taliban. Just like arms provided to Syrian rebels have been used against us.
5
“Hey, maybe it was all just a fake to cover for a power grab and win Western support.”
My only qualification to comment is as a news junkie and even I was doubtful the reforms were anything more than window dressing. How many times do we have to hear about the next generation of Middle East royals being “more modern” before the media shows some skepticism?
19
“We have to make sure the ...reform process in Saudi Arabia proceeds.” Why does Mr. Friedman always, always, always think the US can fix impossible situations. Our track record?
200
You nailed it.
3
@richard
Absolutely nailed it. Great piece. Thanks NYT and Thomas Friedman
Friedman recommends appointing a US ambassador to Saudi Arabia. Really?? that would show further support, if anything. "Stupid" is a warm word for the abhorrent crime the Saudi government committed by assassinating Jamal. What is stupid is trusting the prince's intentions of social/religious reform. That was clearly a distraction. Are you forgetting that he jailed the women activists that supported his so-called policy of allowing women to drive? And what about his imprisonment of fellow princes and businessmen in what he casts as his "anticorruption" drive?? I don't care about his "good" intentions in paper and speeches when his actions show exactly the opposite: cruelty, corruption, lies and total lack of a moral compass. No wonder why the Trumps support him.
30
I was wondering for a week now how you would thread this needle.
And I was not disappointed. We can't simply ignore Saudi Arabia ala Cuba.
How to engage? Yes, the way to do it is through ambassadors. But wait, our crazy president doesnt have one.
You are right; we can't fix stupid and donny trump is the definition of an ignoramus.
54
But Donald Trump is going ballistic, censuring the media ("fake news" if you're listening or watching at home), siding with the Royal House of Saud. "You're guilty until proven innocent," rants the American president, conjuring up the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation drama.
The Turks, of all people, have placed Saudi security at the embassy in Ankara. Jamaal Khashoggi walked in--it's on camera, people--and never left. And a Saudi jet landed in Ankara two days ahead of "the hit" and left the evening after Khashoggi "disappeared."
And SecState Michael Pompeo flies to Riyadh, hat in hand, copping a huge plea, as if it's America that has to do the 'splainin'. We've come a long way from nobility to shame. If Trump caves on this, we're all done, all around the world. It's way past time for the red, white and blue to cease walking on egg shells for Riyadh--and, yes, Jerusalem. It's time to prioritize American values.
Had anything remotely like this happened on Barack Obama's watch, is it inconceivable that the House, under Paul Ryan, would not have begun an examination into articles of impeachment against Mr. Obama? Saudi Arabia is not our ally; we are their fool.
627
@Soxared, '04, '07, '13
The irony of trump's "rush to judgement"statement, after being the author and still purveyor of "Lock her up." The fact he gets away with all he does and says is chilling.
2
“I know that money has a short memory.”
Kind of want to weep just now. If it this putrid episode is transactional, exactly how many tainted coins does Team USA reap when it sends expensive killcrafts to terminate kids on buses in Yemen? American jobs? Driving rights for Saudi women?
26
America's dilemma is not in Riyadh. It's in Washington DC.
I do not know what the optimal U.S. response to Khashoggi's murder. What I know with absolute certainty is that it is not the latest statement from our utterly corrupt and immoral President:
“Here we go again with you’re guilty until proven innocent,” Trump told the AP, comparing it to allegations of sexual assault leveled against now-Supreme Court Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh during his confirmation hearing.
The behavior of MBS and Saudi Arabia is a problem for the U.S. that needs to be addressed. The behavior of Donald Trump is a bigger problem for the U.S.
Until we dispose of Trump, the audacity of authoritarians will continue to grow unabated. Why wouldn't it? They not only have a friend in the oval office, they seem to have a defense lawyer.
337
Thomas, they have stolen the turkey, unless we get it back we will have lost all influence.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/feb/16/terrorism.usa
2
Mr. Friedman:
I have lost respect for you.
Jeff T
Irvine, CA
37
Really not sure why you would lose respect for a man with a considered opinion. The prince must go, but it’s foolish not to continue to promote reform. Maybe we fail, but we must try.
“Remember, one of ISIS’ biggest sources of young recruits was Saudi Arabia.”
And yet Trump wants the backing of Saudi Arabia to attack Iran. Iran in Iraq managed to defeat ISIS, something that we created by our invasion. Iran also has fought back against ISIS and al Qaeda aligned terrorist groups funded by Saudi Arabia in Syria. Remember it was the US who in 1953 we took out Mosaadagh in a coup because he wanted to nationalize their oil and bring democracy to the Middle East. The US also provided access to Saddam Hussein of chemical weapons in the Iran Iraq war.
We should stop the selling of arms to Saudi Arabia and treat them as the brutal Wahhabist rogue state they are. They are the largest funders of terrorism in the world and are starving millions of Yemen civilians and commit war crimes and genocide. I guess our war machine wants continuous war.
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You are absolutely correct in your piece. Thanks
@steve Your comment should be the story - we should stop selling arms. We should stop selling arms. You are so, so, right. Imagine if our selfish, compromised leaders actually cared about the planet and declared a Marshall Plan to address climate change. Nope, gotta sell more arms. If the Congress and the Executive branch under Democrats and Republicans had put even half the energy, skill, and money into making life better for Americans and for human rights, imagine the world we would have.
Again, your comment should have been the story, not Friedman's commentary.
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@steve But bbbut the plans are all made to go after Iran in next installment of forever war. Money to be made, Bibi even good w/ SA now.
Our interests not in the mix.
Eleven months ago, Mr. Friedman was singing praises of MSB and his vision, stating "only a fool would not root for it." More careful observers noted at the time that MSB had already shone signs of ruthlessness, and that his "anti-corruption campaign" and "reforms" were, from the outset, a coup and a cynical sleigh of hand to hide the power grab. Now, MSB seems to be implicated in a gory torture-murder-dismemberment incident and Mr. Friedman hopes the reforms won't be put on hold. Sorry, these two things are part of the same, single program. You can root for MBS or mourn the murder of Khashoggi, but you can't do both at the same time.
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Interrogation is verbal. You cannot kill someone just asking them questions. This was a planned assassination.
Though you cannot prove if it was authorized, here is what can be done: Put a hold on all of those large defense purchase orders until we get some form of calming down. Are we so bereft of values that money will make us overlook everything? We are the nation that espouses higher value for rights violations and the President is talking about large purchase orders (which we can safely assume he inflated).
Not that the US has not killed many during interrogations, we have. Here we have a victim with a resident visa status. Although all lives are precious the US cannot treat this as if he were a US citizen. He was not. That makes it an awful thing but not squarely in our national interest. Just delay the purchase orders. Clinton used to do this with Israel all the time. It gets attention from the purchaser. It has worked in the past.
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