Immigration/emigration is over. To assert otherwise is to grant the Trumps and nationalists and xenophobes of any description a franchise they needn't be afforded, and creates enemies for progressives that are their of their own creation.
The simple fact is that 7 Billion people cannot simply pick up and move to wherever they like, anymore than your neighbor can suddenly decide your backyard is greener and better appointed than theirs, and pitch a tent.
Regardless of the history of imperial colonialism, or native corruption, every citizen of every country must now stand and deliver as a matter of personal responsibility. No amount of recrimination is going to changing anybody's right to immigration - it doesn't exist.
By denying the obvious, we leave the door open to understandable resentment buttressed by common sense. There are a lot of reasonable people we lose with Polyanna politics - and the fault is entirely ours.
This does assume that the West has to take responsiblity for non-interference in developing countries, of course. And we must personally be sure the UN is supported and rogue states in the developed world curtail their acts.
3
The notion that ICE is just doing what Trump is telling them to do, and 'abolish ICE' somehow absolves the head of the snake of all responsibility for their atrocities, just boggles my mind. Perhaps more people need to watch Judgment at Nuremberg. Or should the SS have just been given kinder, gentler orders after 1945?
The honest truth in an America where ICE tears families apart and puts babies in cages is that there are no good men in that agency. There are either cruel sadists, or moral cowards "just following orders."
We've all heard that excuse before. Our answer was and must remain, Never Again.
Abolish ICE.
1
@Alex ICE had nothing to do with the "family separations" controversy on the border. That was the Border Patrol. ICE does interior enforcement. So what is the real reason you want to abolish ICE?
4
Our country’s history of violent meddling in Central and South America is almost never part of the discussion of our so called immigration problem. Yet, overt and covert interventions by American forces over more than 150 years — mostly for the protection of American businesses, and with little concern for the building of public infrastructure, public education or democratic institutions there — bear a great deal of responsible for the legacy of corrupt/gangster-government that today produces so much migration to the north. We should acknowledge this — if not in our woefully a-historic so called ‘national conversation’ about immigration, then at least in our journalism.
2
I cannot imagine ever voting for Trump under any scenario from any dystopian vision. He is one of the most disgusting human beings I have ever had the misfortune of (endlessly) hearing about -- and from -- even as I try to avoid it. That applies with somewhat less angst to any Republican.
That said, Dems: Read these comments from Times readers!! Ignore them at your (and our) peril. One lone guy wrote the piece, and look at what he tapped into. I am amazed. Somehow I had not quite put this together previously, just coasting on my disdain for the entire GOP and especially their "leader." (Actually, as much as he sets an example of despicable conduct and bottom-feeding values, he very much leads from behind.)
5
The article states that pro-immigration groups are "financially outmatched by ideological rivals like the Center for Immigration Studies, the Federation of American Immigration Reform and NumbersUSA." You should also include the environmental organization NPG in this group. The article characterizes these groups as anti-immigrant. Actually none of these groups has ever been anti-immigrant. They are anti-immigration because their members are concerned about the effects on America's future, of mass immigration.
This is also true of the Republican Party. Their platform was written by Senator Tom Cotton. If you read it and listen to his speeches you will see that he doesn't think that the USA can continue to support a larger and larger population with jobs, basic services, housing, food, water, etc. and that the goal of any immigration policy has to be to stabilize the population of the USA. American women currently have 1.7 children so this would result in a declining population.
10
There is a concerted attack on Latino immigrants, manifested by, for instance, the NYT's pages lack of Latino writers since the 1990s, not to mention the lack of visible Latino politicians, judges, professors and executives. Hint: they are available.
Latinos' contribution to American economy is substantial, since they are taking unwanted but needed jobs, they are sub-paid and they are spending most of their meager income onto American soil thereby invigorating American Cash-Flow, the spine of Capitalism. Does not matter.
Then appears Trump, and his millers, which unabashedly increment the throat choke, following the 1990s design.
So, to me is totally harmonized the indifference of the Democrats toward refugees in general, including Middle Easterners, compounded with their Senate Leader Schumer's infatuation with Netanyahu and its strangling of the Muslim Arab Palestinians.
Consider as well that Democrats continue celebrating the demonizing of Sanders, Warren, Waters, Ocasio, Booker, even O'Rourke. Democrats should understand that it is wrong to worship the golden calf, and that if they want to govern, they must renounce to immorality. Somebody someday somehow has to put up to immorality.
In short, the Latinos perceive the falsehood and fraud which the Democrats flog them with, sensing opposition towards their badly needed social justice, racial equality, human rights, and fair wages. Latinos are forced to remain at the periphery of America. I am sorry.
@Timothy Really? This is a classic example of identity politics fixated on grievance. I am sick of identity groups just complaining about everything... it helped hand Trump the election. Be an American.
"Latinos" are a diverse group...like everyone else. If the US was so awful, why would people keep coming in droves? Enough already. stop whining. Vote, and acknowledge that the US is still the most welcoming country in the world. The US takes in more people than all the other countries combined.
20
I would suggest the Democrats fix their immigration problem just like the GOP did with Cubans. Make/pretend your loyal immigrant group legal, acceptable and successful, you know like Sen Cruz, Menendez & Rubio. Just gotta figure out a way to make the reason for migration acceptable like "anti-communism". A puzzling aspect of the Cuban migration is that it was "allowed" by Democratic admins, and greatly supported with welfare aid, but led to large GOP voter gains, so be careful how you go about it so all those Eastern Europeans and Chinese overstaying their visas don't become Republicans too.
5
When the Democratic party figures out that people want the nation's borders secure and immigration controlled with law and not be called racists or haters (the new "sinner" or Scarlet A), they'll attract some Trump voters.
24
Democrats, Progressives and other liberal groups, know what they are against but not what they are for and that will be a problem. They and many Republicans and just 'regular' people cringe at the stories/pictures of illegal immigrates in detention or send back to their home country. But what do they want ? A survey found 1/3 of those in Mexico said they would come to the U.S. if they did not have to worry about immigration policy [and probably getting jobs]. How many more from even more violent/corrupt/poor Latin and South American countries ? What about from Africa ? Middle East, Balkans, even Greece, China, Russia ? What 'open border' policy do pro-illegal/pro-legal [of even honest/upstanding people] do they support ? A mass influx would not only cause economic [jobs] disruption of 'citizens' but those who immigrate.
What is their plan ? Until they state it, there will a continuing argument.
19
No wall, no borders, no deportations of anyone including felons, continuation of chain migration and the visa lottery, a path to citizenship for the 22 million illegals here, sanctuary cities and states - the plan for the re-election of Trump.
It was the issue that got him elected.
23
It’s sad to see that the majority of comments here state that Dems should veer right on immigration. Why accept the right’s assertion that immigrants depress wages? As opposed to corporate greed, bank bailouts, tax cuts for the rich, permanent war, etc, etc. Why allow a right-wing framing of the issue? This is a country of immigrants, why wallow in hypocrisy? Give the “undocumented” documents and raise wages all around. Cut CEO pay. Stop scapegoating the most vulenarable people around you who btw do all the work.
1
The Democrats need a well defined immigration plan and policy. Why can’t the party put one in place to differentiate themselves from Trump? Perhaps it is because they don’t have one?
11
The Democrats don’t have an “immigration” problem - they have an illegal immigration problem. This article, like so many, conflates legal and illegal immigration, especially when describing the American people as supporting it. Americans support legal immigration and are generally against illegal immigration and want secure borders. Until that reality is addressed this will continue to be a losing issue for the Democrats.
28
Many undocumented workers, with false Social Security numbers, pay into a retirement system that they will never benefit from. This subsidizes the rest of us.
Yes, some undocumented workers are doing jobs that Americans would do at decent pay levels such as construction and factory work. Many however, work in our fields, dairies, meat and poultry packing and in corporate landscaping where few Americans would work at any pay level.
Raising the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour, and better enforcement of our labor laws would help with this problem.
1
@Hugh Tague Having a false social security number or stealing someone's ID is a federal crime; criminal and financial fraud, that citizens are prosecuted for. Why should those already violating immigration law then be exempt from laws citizens are prosecuted for?
23
@Hugh Tague, My SS# was 'borrowed' by an illegal working in NYC. What a quagmire trying to straighten that out. It was not an 'innocent' crime.
11
@Hugh Tague
On a recent 97 degree day with the sun beating down. I saw a group of men trailing a loud truck and heaving disgusting garbage into it. Aha, says I, must be a group of men doing the jobs Americans won’t do.
Thinking this a good chance to practice my Spanish, I engaged them in conversation. How surprised was I to discover that they were all Americans, mostly white.
I still can’t figure it out.
3
If Latino and other immigrant citizens don’t show up at the polls, how can anyone expect a couple of outnumbered politicians to solve this complicated and intractable problem? During the Obama years we saw huge marches and attacks on democratic office holders....but no votes. If Trump’s cruel and inhuman policies don’t bring the people directly affected by those policies to the polls, why should the rest of us take our attention away from other important problems?
3
If these immigrants want to escape violence and build a life here in America as the permanent home, America should welcome them after thorough vetting.
Then, they will need to
1) pay an entry fee. If they cannot afford right away, their future wages will be garnished
2) maintain lawful employment under supervision and sponsorship. ACLU, church groups and other orgs who have protested on behalf of them need to chip in the efforts
3) if they commit any felony laws, they are deported immediately
4) they will agree on assimilation, like learning English
5) their finances will be monitored. Any excessive movements must be explained
6) after the probation period, their status will be assessed against an objective checklist. If they flunk, they can try a couple of more times; if they pass, they can move up one level, perhaps pre-permanent resident, pay a fee and apply for a permanent residence status (this has to be hashed out)
7) like (6), there are other scenarios you can throw in there to make it both humane and also beneficial to America, both Democrats and old school Republicans would accept. Also, then it will be fair to people who have applied and waited oversea. The difference is that these illegal immigrants cannot wait due to violence and existential issues. Those who have applied and waited may not want to come right away anyway since they still have a life elsewhere and may not want to give that up just yet. In fact, I have known people forfeiting it
5
@Bos. No, the US cannot welcome everyone who wants to come here. We would become the third world country they are leaving. The majority are economic migrants who could move to a country closer to theirs, but they choose the US because we have the best government benefits. Build the wall.
18
@Olivia
If you think migrants have studied the American social benefits first before risking their life coming here, then they would be smarter than many people here who still believe we were created 6000 years ago. And if benefits were so great, then people working at the MacDonalds of the world would not have to work two or three jobs to make ends meet.
People, please, I beg of you, use common sense and not deplorable disinformation
1
Social justice issues are part of Governance.
Humans are social animals.
We take advantage of the weak and scapegoat others to get away with acquiring power and restricting justice for the weak .
Social justice should definitely be part of political platforms.
How else to acquire social and environmental equity.
Think lead , methane, mercury, asbestos, burn offs of PCBs as a societal trauma for those affected with sickness from these deadly by products of industry.
These young new leaders have energy and conscience to help America be a true democracy.
On the anti-immigrant side the White Christian power structure sees immigrants as an existential threat to themselves and so it much easier to galvanize support from them. Conversely the pro immigrant side the existential threat is to the powerless immigrants making it much harder to galvanize support for them. The 27.3 million legal Latin immigrants better understand that Donald Trump has no use for them either and is coming for them next That said, abolishing ICE is an overreach. Democrats don't have an immigration problem, and what they should be standing for is conspicuous by its absence in this article except for a single line trivializing it as "legislation in 2013 that conservatives derided as amnesty". Nevertheless it overwhelmingly passed the Senate and would be law today except for the hardliners who intimidated Boehner to invoke the "Hastert Rule".
3
@IGUANA "...White Christian power structure sees immigrants as an existential threat to themselves..."
Not true.
The "white Christian power structure" wants to continue with high immigration levels.
Notwithstanding DJT's anti immigrant verbiage, the core of the Republican party caters to corporate and big business which demand cheap labour via more immigrants. Trump will not be able to garner enough support to alter that. And despite the Democratic party's attempt to be seen as the party of the lower and middle classes, it is also beholden to large corporations and Wall Street, and thereby supports increased immigration, while turning a blind eye to undocumented workers and sanctuary cities to ensure a large supply of cheap labour.
America's two main political parties are still "white" power structures and they do not want to curtail immigration.
5
How about this as a negotiated immigration reform: Green card and path to citizenship for DREAMers. Permanent residency that would include the right to participate in local elections for anyone who entered the US prior to 2008. X number per year Lottery visa for 15-year student-work visas for low-income immigrants, with a fee that would fund a “reintegration fund” that would allow families to live and work in the US, and then return to their nations of origin to start business or make other contributions. In exchange, full funding for immigration enforcement efforts.
1
@Jheison A pathway to citizenship for Dreamers would encourage more illegals to invade our country. No amnesty, not now, not ever.
16
How about a story about the problems the Republicans are having with Immigration? We know that business interests would like more liberal immigration policies, while Trump and Miller would like to keep immigrants out. Why is that not on the cover of a NYTimes Magazine? Because Republicans address their discordant factions behind closed doors, while Democrats open them up and allow open debate, mostly a function of Republicans being controlled by a handful of donors (Kochs, Adelson, and a few others who do not agree on immigration), while Democrats are the party of many, many people and many voices.
5
I am a Democrat and I think Trump is an abomination. That said, I hate my party’s position on illegal immigration. Other liberals argue that the official position is not pro-open borders, but in practice it seems they never can find a reason to deport anyone here illegally.
This issue is toxic for the Democrats, and it helped propel our monster of a president to victory (along with Russian interference). I will still vote for Democrats probably forevermore, but this issue is one I wish they would come back down to earth on. We musn’t be cruel—like putting kids in cages—but people who are here illegally should be deported quickly. We should sharply define what asylum is. People who overstay visas should also be deported and banned from returning. Politicians should put citizens first. And while they’re at it, fix the tax code so the rich pay more and corporations can’t get out of paying their fair share.
27
Illegal immigration and the Democratic response to it will get Trump re-elected.
22
I was astonished that this Washington representative expressed bewilderment about what to with enforcement through legislation.
ICE and others are enforcing the laws that the Congress passed - if you want no enforcement - aboioush the laws, for heaven's sake.
It is interesting that at least these two immigrant advocates have India as a place where their families hail from.
I spend winters in India.
It's amazing visas to America are also a top priority for India's politicians - as in why America discrimates and denies it's citizens visas that Indians think as their natural born right.
Not a day passes when Indian newspapers headline a story of an Indian suffering in America because of visa issues. The real reason, he has broken the law - often gets a short shrift.
India's relations with America - at official level - the first issue is H1B visas. Their foreign minister spent her entire time at a news conference with T. Rex talking this issue while T. Rex talked strategic issues.
At all social gatherings - one single topic Indians constantly talk is this perceived discrimination on visas.
Finally, why this smear on Indiana? asking this dark skinned saleswoman - where she came from. Why, it could be just a curiosity. Most Americans ask such questions without meaning harm.
Immigration dog don't hunt because they are trying to reward illegal behavior - contrary to most basic foundation of our society.
14
Mr. Draper,
Your article draws on a fallacy: to favor a Democratic Immigration Policy is to be anti-immigrant.
We Democrat’s know what we are against on immigration policy; we oppose racism, separating families, inhumane treatment of any kind, and we are not for open borders.
But what are we for?
Let’s have a dialogue on the level of immigration. Polls on both sides of the aisle reveal the nation prefers to reduce the unprecedented level of mass immigration. What number makes sense? What is the preferred level? Let’s have that conversation.
To buy a fuel efficient car and consume fewer resources doesn’t mean we’re anti-mobility.
Deb Rohe
7
"All of them sought asylum." Applying for asylum is supposed to consist of presenting oneself as an asylum seeker to border officials, NOT illegally entering the country, then claiming asylum after being apprehended. This is analogous to claiming you'd like to apply for a loan, after having been caught burglarizing the bank.
25
This country is based on the rule of law and its equal application. Our nation is based on the concepts of citizenship- the idea that citizens decide policy through their elected representatives.
All that is going away- replaced by a tribalism based on race, ethnicity, and religion.
We are all losing.
A vocal minority of citizens is trying to recreate this nation. They want everything to be based on feelings and 'values.' Those values, of course, do not include respect for the law and respect for citizens rights.
This vocal minority has been very successful at pulling at the heart strings of our citizens- guilt tripping them into supporting the destruction of our nation.
I beg my fellow citizens to recommit themselves to our democracy. To commit themselves to the idea that we are a nation of laws and that those laws must apply to those with sad stories.
22
Not completely correct. This country is based, more than anything, on the notion that everyone should have an equal break, irrespective of tribe. Implicit in this is the overt defiance of stupid or immoral laws, including the Tea Tax, the Dred Scott decision, Plessy versus Ferguson and the whole body of legalized segregation, and the 55 mph speed limit. The majesty of the law deserves attention but is far less important than the lives and safety of human beings.
2
When Jayapal says "The real question, though, is what can we do that dramatically reins in enforcement," this encapsulates for me the reason I have lost faith in the "progressives" who are trying to take over my party. "Rein in enforcement" equates to celebrating and rewarding lawbreaking. Let her try to explain why it does not. Words have power and meaning. At least she is very clear that she does not support law enforcement, not being subtle about it.
19
@Irene
If she really believes we should “rein in enforcement” - why not exercise her occupation as a legislator and change the law instead of thumbing her nose and middle finger at it? This article shows how incredibly dysfunctional the Democratic Party has become - and how misguided.
Seattle has terrible social problems like drug addiction and homelessness - and yet she spends her time visiting women who have come into the US illegally and worrying about the deportation of a painter who takes sanctuary in a church. This is why Democrats keep losing - and it will bring us Trump in 2020.
10
It takes a special kind of idiot to now understand that you can not incarcerate adults and children in the same facility, for a great number of very obvious reasons. do you think american citizens going to jail get to bring their kids with them ? and that is when you KNOW they are truly related and not just taking some dirt bags word for it. you leftists have lost the ability to simply conduct yourselves like sensible adults. you're all overwrought emotional psychotics screaming endlessly about imaginary crisis' grow up or dont, i really dont care at this point but all this garbage is not playing well among normals.
15
Sarah Smith is running for Congress in Washington's 9th District! She is also part of the progressive wing of the Democratic party that wants to abolish ICE!
5
I'm a Democrat, a liberal - and yeah, Democrats need a SANE policy on Immigration, something that recognizes America is not of infinite size, there ARE real issues with illegal immigration, not the least of which is that among those seeking to become Americans and contribute are also those who just want to make some money and also those who have committed crimes in their home country and are coming here to hide from their police - and continue their crimes.
And amnesty sends a horrible message, it tells every person who applies to come here properly and legally, that they are a sucker. It tells the whole world that we give priority to people who break our laws, for citizenship. We need to differentiate, and yeah, sometimes that will be hard.
But there's a difference between the DREAMer who came here at 5, and has done well here, going to college and finding out they are illegal - and the DREAMer who came here at 16, joined gangs, beat his girlfriend. We need meaningful lines, and yes, any line will exclude some good and some bad. But having to go back to their home country is not a punishment, being allowed to stay here is a reward. And to allow a DREAMer given citizenship with being allowed to help his parents get citizenship, when they were the ones who committed the actual crime - that's a horrible message.
Come on Democrats, there's tons of space between locking up children, and wide open amnesties.
28
@Details If only you were in charge of the DNC platform! It is hypocritical to talk about "dreamers" only knowing this country and not speaking any language but English when anyone who arrived before turning 16 can qualify. Giving them citizenship without deporting their law-breaking parents would be a disaster, but of course the "optics" woukd not be good.
10
"zero-tolerance policy, several thousand children were being separated from their parents"
The president has the duty to enforce the law.
Law number one: Illegal aliens are to be deported, which requires detaining them.
Law number two: Children may not be kept in facilities with adults who are not their parents.
Unlike, say North Korea, the US does not have Family Prisons, therefore, there is no good solution the way things are.
What we can do, the only thing we can do to address this problem, is to reduce the number of illegal aliens with children crossing the border by building a wall.
Any Democrat complaining about children being separated from their parents without supporting a wall is a hypocrite for not wanting to avoid the problem in the first place.
Democrats do not want to have immigration reform, because if it were done, they lose the issue to run on. That is why Democrats voted against the reform bill in the Senate months ago, a bill that most Republicans voted for, and that would have even provided a legal path for dreamers. But no, Democrats sacrificed them on the alter of needing the issue for campaigning.
15
I have known for years, decades, where I stand.
If "LOCK 'EM UP!" is the cry of this land, then the ones we need to lock up are the employers, the owners of these work-sites, the 1%er's who own these businesses.
Lock 'em up.
Confiscate their businesses.
Fine them to the tune of the yearly wage of every worker they have illegally employed.
A year's salary, for a thousand persons?
My, that would smart, wouldn't it?
The laws are on the books.
They have been since Reagan.
How many have been prosecuted?
Four.
4.
Nay, don't "build that wall". Use that money to ship the true law-breakers into the hosegow.
I absolutely guarentee that 90% of all problems will instantly end.
Then we can get down to amnesty and the protection of DACA and investigating the crimes that have been committed by ICE, politicians, and this bizarre theft of 13,000 children that are being held as if they live at Gitmo.
The whole world is watching.
You can start with trump and his illegal use of those 45 Polish men that worked for him in NYC.
Enough.
8
Nothing has done more to diminish the quality of life for the United States middle class through higher housing (land) costs, greater competition for jobs, lower wages, higher taxes to pay for greater poverty, mortgage fraud, medicare fraud, tax fraud, other crime, higher taxes to pay for indigent healthcare (hospital closings), higher taxes for cost of public schools, price of college, degradation of the military, depletion of resources, burden on the taxpayer and overall congestion than the INCREASE of and change in the nature (more poor, more criminals, e pluribus multum) of the POPULATION since 1965, driven almost entirely by late 20th century entry of migrants (immigrants, illegals, h1b visa holders, visa overstays, refugees, etc) their families and descendants.
18
I read this whole article and I still don't know what the Democratic Party would do with respect to immigration if they gain control of the Congress and the presidency.
18
@Douglas Levene
They don’t know either.
2
@Douglas Levene
I can't agree more. When I saw the title of the cover story, I couldn't wait to read it. I thought I was finally going to hear exactly what kind of meaningful reform the Democrats propose. But after reading it, I was disappointed and depressed. The article confirmed my worst fears. I am more convinced than ever that the Dems' blind spot on this issue will doom us to another Trump term.
On the other hand, reading the Comments has been incredibly enlightening. I realize I'm not the only one who is yearning for the Democrats to take a much stronger stance on Immigration -- and soon. I'm a lifelong Democrat, but like many others on this thread, the Democrats' disastrous approach to this issue is pushing me away. I no longer want to support the party if they continue down this path. Someone needs to send these comments to the Democratic leadership. They need a wake-up call. Fast.
I also want to mention the "A" word: Assimilation. It's become a dirty word — and that upsets me more than anything else. I live in San Francisco, and immigrants no longer have to learn English. The city provides signage and voting pamphlets in virtually every language and caters to non-English speakers as much as possible. Spanish language advertising is everywhere. It's clear we are becoming a bi-lingual nation. We need a common language to maintain any unity.
We have devolved into a morass of Identity Politics, Political Correctness and tribalism. I despair for this nation.
2
Never have I seen such stark choices.
We can enforce our laws and deport those here illegally- and save our democracy or we can let them stay and get more Trump.
It is no longer a question of helping foreigners here illegally- it is a question of whether or not we save our country.
It should be a simple choice for any citizen that loves their country and community. It should be an easy choice for anyone that believes in representative-democracy.
Why isn't it an easy choice for so many? They have been emotionally manipulated.
21
Wow. I am stunned at these comments. From a selfish perspective, who, may I ask, is going to pay for the Social Security of the Baby Boomers and Gen Xers if not for immigration? And I can't believe the concern expressed in the article focuses on whether abolishing ICE is a good move politically! ICE has clearly become the Schutzstaffel of the American right. These are mothers and children people! Where is your humanity?
21
@Rebecca,
We have to reform Social Security.
Let's say we need (we don't but let's just say) 30 million immigrants to cover the costs of Social Security.
What do we do when those folks retire? Well then we would need 60 million immigrants to cover them.
What do we do when those folks retire? Well then we would need 120 million immigrants to cover them.
Do you see the problem? Please tell me you see.
There are mothers and children, citizens, in the US who need help. Where is your humanity?
16
@Rebecca, Maybe instead of asking how we are going to fund the world's largest PONZI scheme we should be asking why Americans are forced to pay close to 12.4% of their income up to a six figure cap into this sham retirement system. Some of these women the story refers to may pay some SS tax but the vast majority will never pay enough in taxes to cover the cost of the public education their kids will receive.
7
@WillT26 Well said, as always, Will.
Democrats have gone to far rewarding Illegal Aliens with Drivers Licenses, Sanctuary Cities and Welfare this is why Trump won. Everyday Blue Collar and African Americans are walking away from Democrats who have not paid attention to Urban Blight and the Shrinking of the Middle Class/ Hispanic voters do not support Illegal Immigration nor amnesty. The Democrats can not make up there voter base by making illegal aliens citizens it will never pass congress
America will not give 22 Million Illegal Aliens amnesty costing trllions. What Americans want is to be protected in their country the wall built as promised by Congress and immigration laws enforced. I expect by 2019 Mandatory E-Verify will pass and more immigrants will leave the U.S because of the Public Charge law. It is not in U.S Taxpayers interest to support low skill. non educated immigrants that rely on welfare. With Automation America does not need those kind of workers.
History will show that Democrats are on the wrong side of Immigration and will become a small party because of it.
20
The Democrats ignored illegal immigration just like the Republicans for 30 years. The border is more secure and will not be open again.
Trump is a terrible person but the open border is over. Forever. Illegal immigrants and refugees are not the same. Millions of illegals should not be “grandfathered” in with some amnesty. Obama had DACA right. DACA is great and they should be on the path already. It was nearly complete but crazy Trump stopped it.
Katie Hill did Congress is spot on with excellent ads and they include “secure borders”. On the other hand CA Lieutenant Gov. Elena Kounalakis got it wrong when ads proclaimed “Eleni is for immigrants”, “Eleni is for women”. Ok I asked them please tell me more. Nothing.
Her immigration pitch was to capture a lotion vote sympathetic to illegals and the generic woman battle cry was also unclear and ambiguous. The experienced head of her campaign played it well for her win and a very unimportant job. It won’t work for House races. Illegals are not refugees. “Disband ICE” is absurd. Immigration and Customs Enforcement is important. Catching Mara Salvatrucha, also known as MS-13 the killer international criminal gang of monsters that originated in Los Angeles, California from illegals starting in the 1980s is on their list of targets. Good! Democrats for Congress need to all face up to secure borders and by that I mean to get elected they need to say it. Bernie Sanders is the smartest kid on the block but Democratic Socialism, NO.
10
The Democrats biggest immigration problem? The inability to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration.
34
Exactly. Amen.
14
Standing up to disparate law enforcement used to be called fighting for social justice.
We have an entire class of residents exempt from the laws and responsibilities of the general welfare that citizens are held accountable for.
As a citizen, I'm prosecuted for laws illegal immigrants ignore with impunity. I work hard. I'm trying to make a better life. Why can't I simply ignore laws inconvenient to my own self gain?
Violate duly passed immigration laws and you are given privileged exempt legal status for the political and economic gain of the governing elite.
That is not 'racist' or 'xenophobic'. Disparate law enforcement by perceived political advantage is the crux of social injustice Democrats used to stand up and fight against. That's the problem.
20
"A quarter-century ago, both political parties had the same room-temperature appraisal of immigrants." If true then shame on the people who made this such a polarized issue. Remember the unfinished business of Simpson Mazzoli Act- strengthening the enforcement of immigration laws (including sanctions for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens); increase border controls; and create a program to verify the immigration status of aliens applying for certain welfare benefits. As a legal immigrant, naturalized citizen, and seven year USAF veteran my vote is for due process over illegal migration, coyotes, law breaking "sanctuary" cities, pursuit of votes and the mess that accompanies it (even if it makes people feel good and its good politics).
9
I saw a recent survey on this subject, and it showed that the group most in favor of reductions in immigration, both illegal and legal, by a wide margin, is African-Americans. Given Trump's strong approval rating with that group, and various signals like Kanye West's oval office visit, this could be the issue, or one of them, that finally removes the Democrats' vice grip on the black vote.
They, like everyone else, has become increasingly aware of the shell game being played by both parties on this subject, and trade. Their donors want access to cheap foreign labor. The way they silence opposition is by calling anyone who questions them "racists" for not wanting open borders.
Meanwhile, the middle class deteriorates, and American-born citizens have to fight for jobs against foreign labor that will work for $3/hr.
This is particularly deadly for the Democrats, because their long-standing image as the party of the "little guy" in the US is rapidly disappearing. They are instead increasingly the party of wealthy left wing activists and college professors obsessed with culture war and victory at all costs, who only see immigrants as the way to take over the country by changing the population. by "dissolving the people and electing a new one in their place".
It can't hold. It won't hold. That game on this issue is rapidly disintegrating. And Trump holds the trump cards, by doing what the people actually want.
22
The Dems have gone so far to the left on this issue it is impossible to see them as anything but extremists. In this newspaper's latest editorial, a doctor not only argues for legal migration. He argues that immigrants should have the American taxpayer pick up their medical bills, pay their grocery bills, put a roof over their heads and pay for their prescription medications.
This is not rational immigration policy. Immigrants of all sorts should not ask the American public to pay their bills. If they cannot feed themselves, house themselves and pay their own medical bills they are welcome to return home. These were the laws that governed immigration a century ago.
Why should life be any different today? If you literally cannot afford to put food in your belly or a roof over your head, you have no right to ask we let you stay.
34
@Had It
Why do you think that position in any way represents the Democratic party? It doesn't.
If I listen to a racist republican rant about executing all Muslims who refuse to leave, and hold that up as an example of all Republicans - does that make it true?
I'm a Democrat, and I'm all for rational immigration policies - less family reunification, appropriate limits, no amnesty, deport criminal illegals first, and never ever any priority granted to those who come here illegally - and mandatory eVerify with massive penalties to businesses that violate it. I can't find any politician to fit that - Republicans will sometimes claim these things - but they instantly back down as their corporate sponsors want the illegal labor to be kept there - and illegal so it's cheap. Republicans are where the last amnesty, as well as the last attempted amnesty came from, so I don't buy into any pretense that they are against illegal immigration.
4
There's an article in today's paper literally demanding we give immigrants taxpayer provided housing, medical care, medications and food.
An immigration problem indeed. Why should any American be forced to subsidize someone else's decision to move here?
36
The Dems have an immigration problem. They believe that anyone should be allowed to move here. They also believe that Americans should be forced to pay that person's medical bills, give that person food and pay that person's rent.
This is an irrational immigration policy that appears to be far more about trolling for votes particularly in Latino communities than it does about actually representing the needs of the American public.
28
We can't handle all the world's people with problems. We can't even take care of those already here - healthcare, education, jobs. And it's going to get worse as artificial intelligence grows.
What we can do, however, is at least stop creating refugees - eg. bombing this place and that, while constantly imposing blockades on others.
17
Just reading these comments should tell you that this very issue may very well give Donald Trump another four years...
36
Do your homework reporter. Bernie voted against immigration reform due to concerns over weakened wages and protections for American labor unions (AFL CIO) and the addition of guest worker provisions in the bill - adding more unstable, temporary and low wage jobs to foreign born people and aiding the profit margin of corporations. This would be a no-win for any worker, but was supported by Clinton and Obama. You can count on Bernie to have integrity on these issues and any supposition otherwise is disingenuous. I expect more nuance from NY Times reporting.
16
Most of the comments here are a great example of extrapolation based on fear and prejudice. I see an awful lot of assertions regarding Democrats wanting "unfettered immigration" or "open borders", none of which is suggested by this article or supported by Ms. Jayapal's own stances should choose to visit her website. Grumbling over democrats daring to care about Dreamers as if this group is unworthy of consideration or protection, or ignoring the situation of ICE detainees and equating reigning in abuses with abandoning all enforcement, another assertion directly contradicted by, you know, the actual article - "if you're explaining you're losing" is a sad state of affairs, but most doing the commenting here seem to be the type who would rather cling to their warped views than even read what's literally written in the article.
Ignorance, bias and fear are powerful motivators for human behavior, far more so than clear understanding and weighing of positive and negative factors in a decision, unfortunately - as the 2016 election amply demonstrated. If you think that Democrats want to open the borders without consequence to those who don't follow the law, you have an extremely poor grasp of this issue, plain and simple.
5
@NS
Sadly you talk past the points being made and respond with assuming the motivation is ignorance, fear and bias. The frustration on the part of many people is the fact we agreed to “address” this issue 30 years ago. I’m a pro-immigration immigrant but tired of violating the law being okay- and yes that is your party’s position. Tired not out of ignorance or bias, but a respect for laws, due process, and open debate.
13
@NS. How can you say Jayapal does not support unfettered immigration when she specifically said: "The real question, though, is what can we do that dramatically reins in enforcement." Refusing to let law enforcement do its job is certainly promoting unfettered immigration, which translates to open borders.
8
@NS Keith Ellison literally walked around with a shirt that said I don't believe in borders. "Dreamers" are mostly Mexican nationals who can return there. The Dems are extremists on this issue. They want to invite millions of ill qualified people and force their base to pay real cost of such policies.
That's what's warped. The Dems need to listen their base. Their base in America not their fantasy base of all the "good" brown people down south and all the alleged evil white ones right here.
They're literally at the point where they don't think anyone should be refused admission here. That's no way to run a country.
15
You ain’t seen nothin’ yet! As the sea levels rise over the next several decades, the wave of immigrants will become a tsunami. And there is nothing anyone can do about it. This alarming prospect renders moot all current arguments about immigration reform. Democracy as we know it will come under great pressure, and, in many places, may succumb to authoritarian rule.
Even now, immigration has become the third rail of politics in advanced democratic countries. Those who advocate reform need to pick and choose carefully. If the Democrats eventually do return to power (and that’s not at all assured, in my mind), they should start with the least contentious idea, some form of the Dreamers act.
Over millions of years of evolution, group cohesion gave early humans the edge they need to survive on a hostile planet. It’s not surprising that it remains such a potent force today, especially when so many people worldwide are struggling economically, and are susceptible to the siren call of ethno-nationalism.
8
A few random ideas Democrats ought to consider:
1. Make H1-B visas geographically dependent. Spread them around in line with the population. If tech needs all those tech immigrants, let them set up shop in other parts of the country that could use an economic boost, rather than just packing more H1-Bs into Silicon Valley.
2. Offer lots of family planning resources to the places these people are coming from (we're looking at you, Guatemala), and condition acceptance of refugees from those places on the willingness for those countries to get serious about slowing their population growth.
3. Family reunification in the form of offering aid to immigrants to return to their families in their home countries.
All this does not make a coherent plan, but does start with a few ideas Democrats could add to the discussion.
10
The problem Democrats have is that they can't win elections anymore, so they have to "import" voters and recruit them from the graveyards. The US has 3.5 million more registered voters than live people. Its the REAL reason they oppose voter ID laws... Obama didn't carry a SINGLE state that had voter ID laws in place... let that sink in.
If Latin immigrants tended to vote Republican, we all know that wall would have been built and the border sealed decades ago. Democrats will exploit illegals without compunction.
We take in more LEGAL immigrants every year in the US than any other country on the planet. The only immigration "crisis" we have are politicians who refuse to enforce the law, and, in fact, encourage illegal immigrants by providing them with sanctuary, driver's licenses, and even allowing them to vote. This, of course just causes the problem to grow as they continue to hold out the incentives. Then, when a politician (Or even a Immigration ENFORCEMENT AGENCY dares enforce the law, the left's lapdog media comes running like a fat kid after an icecream truck to vilify the politicians and personnel doing their duty.
So, the problem the Democrats have is that just over half the country WANTS our immigration laws enforced... and they see through the dog and pony show.
22
“Relative to other progressive special interests, the immigrant rights movement has traditionally been a pauper’s crusade, lacking in billionaire benefactors and ***financially outmatched by ideological rivals like the Center for Immigration Studies, the Federation of American Immigration Reform and NumbersUSA.***”
You can’t possibly be serious.
9
Democrats are so obsessed with trying to "brown" the country that they have forgotten about what is best for the average American, tax-paying citizen (many of whom are black and Latino).
The average Joe is losing jobs, suffering stagnant wages, and paying taxes for the medical care and education of immigrants and will vote Trump in again.
27
@allright, you can complain all you want that illegal (or legal) immigrants stole all those jobs and depressed wages, but it seems far likelier that capital (ie, rich folk's money) moved those jobs to where it's cheaper, in Mexico & Asia. Seems to me, most of that money is Republican, although, yes, the Dems allowed it to go.
Very few Latinos or Asians on view in US assembly line pictures I've seen
Ditto in ranks of police, fire and utility work crews (in"sanctuary cities y'all complain are over run w immigrants)
Not easy to find in pics, but if you look, these immigrants are in the back rooms, making your food and cleaning your rooms, or in your farms & slaughterhouses, for less than minimum wage. That's where the jobs are, if you care to take them back.
The comments here should be required reading for the editorial board of NYT and WAPO, along with the DNC.
Illegal immigration has replaced war as the new seminal issue of the world order. Simple common sense dictates the absurdity of open borders and placing the needs of illegal immigrants/economic refugees over tax paying voting citizens. However, throughout the world, there is a party that pushes for illegal immigration/asylum via the media and politicians. Fortunately, the voting populace can see how unreasonable this stance is and crush the open borders candidates. Want proof? See Brexit, Australia, Hungary, Trump/USA, etc.
The democrats need to moderate on this issue or they simply will continue to lose elections. They need to look in the mirror and ask why the republicans control the presidency, senate, house, supreme court, and majority of governorships.
Overall, it's easy: people believe their native civil cultures should be maintained with rule of law.
If the dems put up Harris (maybe the most open borders candidate), Booker, Warren, or Sanders, the November 2020 NYT headline will read Trump wins again
32
Well I personally love Bernie because he’s the ONLY “progressive” who doesn’t want unfettered immigration. If being pro-open borders and pro-amnesty is the litmus test for being a progressive, I guess don’t call me a progressive. But I’m all for medicare for all, universal basic income, and free higher education. But these other “progressives” are honestly really turning me off to voting for dems when they are more concerned with social justice, rather than actually helping your everyday American. And this is coming from a gay 23 y/o who voted for Clinton by the way. If the left sends another sjw cut-out to be their 2020 nominee i might switch to Trump.
80
@Josh
I'd agree with all but the last - there's a ton more than just illegal immigration to consider.
Oh, and justice does help your everyday American. Or do you not count women and racial or religious minorities as everyday Americans? In any case, Democratic policies - healthcare, environmental protection, etc. - they are for the everyday American. Trump policies do the opposite.
If I pretend I have a choice of Trump - whose policies literally are trying to make the earth uninhabitable and an oligarchy, versus someone who will diminish us with too much focus on illegals - there's no question which to choose. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face, or throw a tantrum until I get my magical perfect candidate.
1
@Josh a universal basic income is a pretty conservative idea — Milton Freeman advocated for it as an alternative to welfare programs that provide a disincentive to work. As for Medicare for all are “free” higher education, the US might just be able to afford them if we weren’t spending so much tax money defending the border and supporting illegal immigrant families.
Maybe more progressives will eventually wake up to the fact that social programs cost money. Until that happens, you’re better off supporting Republicans until the borders are less porous, and we have an idea of exactly how many freeloaders there are an how much it will cost for the government to support their “lifestyle.”
4
@Details I totally get what you’re saying, but I don’t believe many “progressive” policies will get much traction/work until we fix our immigration system.
The topic of immigration in all its facets (which was not the subject of the article) seems to have overrun the comments section and may have obscured what this piece is about.
I see it as a very well-developed profile of a MoC who's a subject matter expert but also a lightening rod. I disagree with some of her views but also disagree that Mr. Draper or the paper was promoting her positions, as some posts allege.
This is an example of good journalism, with credit to Mr. Draper and the paper alike. I'd appreciate more profiles of representatives/senators with passion and expertise on any critical subject (and will continue to make my own conclusions).
1
Standing against something is more defined/definite than standing for something. Dissent enables change.
Democrats will reply through decent, sound, measurable, effective policies and a consistent narrative that reaches out to the American majority.
2
If we take care of promoting workers' rights and trade unionization in Third World economies, maybe fewer people would be fleeing the misery. (Yes, Venezuela has plenty of rights for workers, and yet look at their people and the misery they live in. Answer: It's difficult for any country to prosper economically when the United States is leading the way on an economic embargo. There are lots of examples, not least Iraq. Venezuela is no different. Maduro cannot succeed any more than Saddam Hussein did as long as the U.S. embargoes his country.)
NAFTA was supposed to bring revitalization to Mexico's economy. And while it has certainly benefited Mexico's wealthy, it has mostly been a boon to U.S. entrepreneurs taking advantage of the cheap labor and lax regulations there. If the Trump administration truly wants to discourage more migration, both legal and illegal, from south of the border, he might want to start by giving workers there more opportunities. That means promoting a stronger labor movement so that people have more hope of a better future where they are.
3
While it's true that Democrats have gone from one extreme to the other on immigration, at least they see it as a challenge that must be addressed - which is more than nearly all Republican lawmakers. We'll never even get to that point now, thanks to the hard line Republicans, who own the GOP. We also have in Trump's orbit at least two senior advisers who can't even abide legal immigration, so...
2
@LW,
Don't sell your country men and women short- there are tens of millions of us who want legal immigration to end as well.
We have enough people in this country. If citizens want to live in crowded, environmentally destroyed, and dangerous places they can emigrate.
17
Instead of abolishing ICE, address the Republicans. They say stop undocumented entry first, then talk about legal immigration. That's backwards, and it's clear why. If no decent paths exist for legal entry or asylum, people chose illegal entry.
Our dysfunctional system is due to the paltry number of LEGAL immigrants allowed in, and the odious, endless process of doing it legally. That's why some legal immigrants dismiss the undocumented. It's grating to see others get in without paying such a high price in time and treasure, even if they know the cost is mean spirited.
Legal immigration should be expanded, not restricted. Asylum should be overhauled and expanded. Then crack down on undocumented entrants (whose crime is a misdemeanor).
Democrats, especially those leading immigration efforts, make this clear: the US lets in, per capita, fewer legal immigrants than most countries. Much less than many. The process is more expensive and time-consuming than other countries.
Only a minority of Americans oppose immigration. A lot are ambiguous about illegal entry. Address this, not ICE. Republicans use the undocumented as cover to cut legal immigration. McCarthy can say Democrats don't have the courage of convictions, when they back off abolishing ICE. Republicans don't have the courage to admit their bait and switch, when they attack undocumented entrants to limit legal immigration.
2
@Brian I don't oppose immigration, but I oppose self-selected immigration and will continue to do so with all my might. No ambiguity here. We cannot have an underground economy in our nation.
17
@Brian ambivalence
This article still failed to really articulate what Democrats believe. The Dream act was in there, but I really would have liked to hear more about the other dozens of bills and what they have in them.
I voted for Obama twice and I actually liked how he went about immigration. He was tough on border crossing, yet he also had compassion with the executive order. I think that's really what most of America wants.
I want to be compassionate to the Dreamers, but I also dont want illegal immigrants in this country. They DO make wages go down and I've seen it happen in reality. I've never seen a real refutation of this fact. I want there to be more legal immigrants and NO illegal immigrants. I want tough enforcement while also making it easier to enter this country as an immigrant.
I want a smart immigration system that isnt defined only through morality. True morality requires infinite resources, and we are already destroying our countries environment without millions of new people with very large carbon footprints. I want immigration to help Americans too. That means H1-B reform to prevent multinational firms from getting a majority of the visas and having to be trained by the Americans they are undercutting and replacing.
E-verify is what I want. The Dream Act is what I want. Merit-based immigration is what I want. More legal immigration is what I want. More work to assimilate immigrants is what I want. There is just no party that represents my views.
22
@Jacqueline,
The biggest opponents of the Dream Act are the 'kids' themselves.
They will never settle for anything less than complete legalization for themselves- and their parents who brought them here illegally.
Its right there in the article- and in all of their public statements.
You cannot get the Dream Act without accepting tens of millions of criminal relatives.
The extremists will not give up their hopes of changing this nation and replacing the people they dislike with criminal foreigners they do like.
15
Get rid of illegal immigrants. DACA yes! Illegals no. ICE stays needed as they were before the past years crisis. We need MS - 13 whose motto is “Kill, rape, control” crushed.
No mercy getting them done with.
The elimination of programs to discourage new illegals is a must.
It will never be “oh I like it I want to stay” - not ok. Also the idea of getting in hiding to make babies has to stop. No more anchor babies. Chinese illegal women in apartments in downtown LA. Women hiding pregnancy and coming here to give birth. Horrible
9
Really. How about immigrants that want to re create their country here. Never learn English which historically people did for decades. Nope. Los Angeles has it bad. A nightmare of illegal immigration who receive social services. Not okay. Deport!
15
I'm glad that commenters have continued to write that there is a difference between legal and illegal immigration. The media has tried to beat it into our heads that illegal and legal immigration are exactly the same thing, and I'm very proud that commenters havent given in to this Orwellian conflation.
I mean, the NYT and everyone else decided like 5 years ago that illegal immigration wasnt illegal and that really these immigrants were just undocumented. Like they left their visas at home and forgot to bring them when they crossed the border. About a year ago the media decided that undocumented was too much, and that really illegal and legal immigration was the exact same thing. Now all we hear about is "immigrants."
I'm just glad that people havent allowed this half decade of rhetorical logic bashing to push them down into the mud to become brainless zombies of the new orthodox religion of liberalism.
Keep challenging the dogma. Moderate the extremism. Find unity as Americans.
53
@Jacqueline
As a proud Democrat and Liberal, I couldn't agree with you more. There's a massive difference between illegals and legal immigrants. Playing this game of minimizing the terms doesn't change that.
12
Wow I've never seen a comment section be so completely against the tone of the article. I'm really happy that people are starting to truly understand the issue. No party represents the views of the majority of Americans right now. Americans do not support illegal immigration. Americans do support legal immigration. illegal and legal immigration are different things.
Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot. Bad. If anyone who actually works at the New York Times and has an iota of influence actually reads this comment board, I would hope that they talk to the editorial board about this.
61
Their primary program is they can’t seem to differentiate between legal immigration and illegal immigration. I live in what is not a particularly liberal state - well there is Austin - and I find most people I know favor liberalizing legal immigration but also feel illegal immigration should be stopped. This isn’t rocket science.
43
@TW Smith
Read the bipartisan comprehensive bills that Democrats have written during the last years, and you'll see that they clearly distinguish between both, AND want to END illegal immigration.
The main difference here, apart from rhetoric and fake news, between the GOP and Democrats is simply the fact that Democrats are serious about immigration reform and that their policies are fact-based.
Compare that with the GOP: after almost two years of controlling DC, there's no wall, no immigration reform signed into law, nothing actually, except for a bit more arbitrary cruelty towards a handful of illegals and that's it ...
6
@Ana Luisa,
What? No- the Democrats do not want to end illegal immigration. They just want to legalize everyone and make no form of immigration illegal.
They want asylum rules to be loose enough that a person that stubbed their toe would be eligible.
2
Is there some way to insure that the Democrats in the United States House and Senate read the comments on this article? If they are busy, just read the top 50 Reader Picks.
39
Let me tell you -- a lot of otherwise Democratic voters went for Trump because they think that there are enough people here, for now, from Africa, Latin Ameria, and Asia.
They will never admit it but it's true.
Let's take a break for a few years and see how that goes.
33
@DickeyFuller
Except that the only ones really working hard and motivated to limit immigration are the Democrats. Republicans time and again block comprehensive immigration reform in Congress. The same saga is going on under Trump.
The GOP controls DC for almost two years now, and there's no wall, no comprehensive immigration reform, nothing, basically.
If a handful of Republicans wouldn't have blocked the bipartisan bill under Obama in the Senate, today it would already have been the law of the land.
1
@Ana Luisa Comprehensive immigration reform is amnesty. The American public doesn't want it.
1
I am pretty liberal but t illegal immigration is a major problem in this country and should be cracked down on hard.
48
We're so worried about illegal aliens on our streets. Considering what we've learned about the low reporting, prosecution and conviction rates for sexual assaults in America, perhaps we ought to be more concerned that there are legal rapists on our streets.
5
The immigration debate is destroying the liberal democracy in both the US and Europe. There's a huge part of the population against it, and they have stopped voting leftist parties and instead are chosing far-right populist parties instead. Meanwhile the left's only plan is call them racist and ignorant. Even Angela Merkel is almost politically dead after saying yes to one million refugees. I don't know what the solution is, but either we decide something or our democracy will die soon.
48
Well said “Abolish Ice” is the liberal equivalent of “Build the Wall”
Both utter nonsense
24
Why is it that the DNC cannot hear the voices of its actual base regarding this issue? We will lose in 2018 and 2020 if Democrats don't stop their idiotic attachment to illegal immigration and legal immigration policies.
Nobody on either side wants our current immigration policies to continue. The only people fighting to abolish ICE are illegal immigrants and the fringe far left. Please do not continue to make this mistake Democrats.
PLEASE LISTEN TO YOUR SILENT BASE: We do not support continuing to allow illegal immigration, lax legal immigration and asylum, anchor baby policies, or near-open borders. It's not sustainable and it's killing the financial and natural resources of our country.
This is the one issue that will turn enough Democrats away to vote Republican or for another party. AGAIN. Why are Democratic Party leaders so defiantly obtuse about this issue? Where is the common sense in the Democratic Party?
52
An immigration plan Democrats already have supported:
1. Border sensors nd fencing more cost-effective than “a big tall beautiful wall”.
2. Entry-Exit biometric immigration tracking as begun under Obama and supported by Trump.
3. Consistent use of E-Verify.
4. Permanent legalization of DACA residents.
5. Improved/expanded guest worker Visa programs to supply ag and other temp labor markets.
6. Faster processing of undocumented, so fewer detention centers (aka prisons) needed.
7. End family separations.
8. Don’t be mean or evil.
Lots here for Rep & Dem to agree on.
Get this done first, then wrestle with the more gnarly immig stuff.
7
Many illegals with children when vetted are not parents. There are many who are not parents or guardians and we can not allow nor is it legally ok to release children to everyone they arrived with. Some are also criminals and others deported before. Imagine trying to figure out who children really are when they arrive with a non relatives. Very complicated.
9
Border security is a must! Ultra high priority. Deporting illegals is too.
7
I am glad Rep Jayapal sneaked in problems faced by "H1b" in this article.
I am one of 300k victims of this broken system. Having followed all laws and still unable to get my GC for a decade due to per country caps. The bill has been passed by house twice in last 7 years and current version has 329 cosponsors. BUT, today's Democratic party and Media wish to focus only on illegal immigrants.
Why does DREAM act exclude H4 dependent kids who age out at 21 and have to self deport OR get their own H1 and stand in this never ending line?
The immigrants have been fooled by the Dems. They dont want to fix anything till they can legalize 11 (or 22) million illegals. Their hard line leftist agenda affects the whole country and adds to the fear that Trump takes advantage of.
Even more hurtful is that when I wrote to Sen Durbin (3 times), twice I got a reply telling me how awesome the Dream act is. It seems his staff cant read english anymore. When I called Senora Pelosi, her staffer schooled me that there are no illegals here, only undocumented people. They are just plain politicians, they dont care who suffers what as long as they can defeat trump.
The Media including NYTimes is feeding this circus. Why is that children of legal immigrants can be separated from their families and nobody bats an eyelid?
17
50 Years from now we’ll be having the same debate on immigration.
2
@George
The misbegotten one time Reagan Amnesty happened in 1986, 32 years ago. So, yes, you're probably right.
A serious flaw in our form of government is that it takes forever to recognize a problem, a long time to devise solutions, still more time to do anything, and, by then, problems are too big to solve.
It should be clear to all that ending Birthright Citizenship is vital to restoring a functioning legal immigration system but there is no movement in this regard whatsoever.
25
American public does not support key planks of the Democratic Left's immigration platform. They do not want amnesty to legalize 11 million illegal immigrants. They can be talked into amnesty, if this really ends future growth of the illegal immigrant population. A bill which triggers amnesty after illegal immigration drops to less than 50,000 per year might have a chance of passing with a large 2/3s majority. Problem is most Democrats do not even want illegal immigration to shrink ... They want 11 million to get amnesty, and they should be able to bring many more people illegally or legally. This does not sit well with the American public.
19
@W Apte,
11 million? We should be so lucky.
Over 22 million. And if the Democrats get a majority all 22 million will be legalized and given the right to bring their entire family into the country. That's another 100-200 million people.
Want to see a Blue Tsunami? If the Democrats get their way they will never lose another election again- they will just import voters by the millions.
11
Democrats stand for: infrastructure, bank regulations that keep the banks, 80% bigger nw than when they crashed the system in 2008, to not act like casinos with an insurance policy, Democrats stand for growing markets, strengthening markets with allies, growing mainstreet and not Wall Street, clean water, clean air, sustainable energy policies where the dirtiest energies are not subsidized the most, immigration, which we have tried to get an honest path to citizenship, affordable healthcare, where the ACA/Obamacare actually slowed health care cost rises, I could the all day, but the Republicans have 95% of the airwaves/twitterwaves, FoxNews is #1 by a HUGE margin, and the Sinclair Broadcast Group supports their watchers "in every platform'. NYT is baiting the Dems?
5
@4Average Joe,
None of what you say makes sense.
Democratic policies in regards to immigration- legal and illegal- helps Wall St. not Main St.
The environment? Tens of millions of immigrants make it worse not better.
Affordable healthcare? Now I know you are joking. Bringing in tens of millions of criminal wage-slave laborers doesn't make healthcare affordable. It makes it less affordable.
I am glad you didn't say anything about education. Cause all those immigrants means larger class sizes and less resources for citizen students.
I am glad you didn't say anything about affordable housing. Cause all those immigrants means more demand for less supply- higher rents!
I am glad you didn't say anything about wage increases. Cause all those immigrants depress wages- in every sector. Illegals. H1B visas.
I certainly like your sense of humor!
14
“We hate Trump” is not much of a rallying cry for a party. The Dems have put non-Americans way in front of the average blue collar American who pays taxes. Denigrating “deplorable dregs” doesn’t help either. Those folks serve in the military, USPS, UPS, government, and Walmart, etc. and pay taxes, too. If they are so bad, give them their money back. Radical in-your-face protests do not mesh with the average American, who likes getting along with all types of people. It only makes people mad and not inclined to vote for Dems. That’s why Hillary lost.
31
Democrats, liberals, progressives. All the same philosophy just under different monikers. The problem for them is that they don’t stand for anything. They are unprincipled by nature because they promise everything to everybody. Grow a spine and people may actually believe in you.
13
@Bob
Obamacare alone saves 40,000 additional American lives a year.
Soon that will be half a million American lives saved.
THAT is what I call having a clear moral compass.
The GOP proposes to replace this bill with Ryancare, which Trump supports, and that would take away the insurance of a whopping 30 million Americans. Those are REAL dead panels, you see?
The only problem in this country is that GOP voters don't fact-check.
3
@Ana Luisa
The result of ObamaCare was that only 2 million people gained health insurance who didn't already have it (9 million of the 21 million were already insured), or who qualified and were immediately shunted into Medicaid (10 million were added, mostly abled bodied millennials such that there are now 70 million straining the Medicaid system). Insurance is not actual health care. Even with OCare, hospitals saw marked increases in ER visits, the costs of which were borne by those hospitals and paying patients. The sole advantage to ACA was the pre-existing condition provision. Everything else was a costly mistake of smoke 'n' mirrors paid for as a tax by the middle and upper middle class self-employed - whose own health insurance premiums tripled to the point of unaffordability. So much for the Affordable Care Act.
1
@Ana Luisa Im not GOP, so feel free to stop pidgeonholing. The ACA is Obama‘s admitted path to single payer which fails more than it saves.
"Never was this more apparent than in the 2016 presidential election, when Hillary Clinton’s welcoming stance toward undocumented immigrants failed to generate any increase in Hispanic turnout, even against an opponent who began his campaign with a speech characterizing Mexican immigrants as rapists and drug dealers."
Politicians just hate an unrequited pander.
27
This is the problem nowadays. Issues on which there was a general consensus only 20 years ago, climate change, immigration, sexual assault for goodness sake! have been cynically politicized and tribalized, to the point where a large segment of the GOP now trumpets, in the face of virtually all available evidence, that immigrants are a huge threat to the country, climate change is fake news and the REAL threat on the issue of sexual assault is rampant false allegations by women. Do they believe this patent nonsense? Sadly, many of the Fox News Koolaid drinkers and Trump cultists do, since they believe whatever the dear leader tells them. The good news is that there is an ever-shrinking of subscribers to the "base" and significant majorities of Americans hold fact-based views on these and other issues. The bad news is that, due to accidents of geography and the increasing electoral power of places that lose population, we are now ruled by a diminishing minority of White, Male, older, rural and Southern voters.
One Dem pollster asserted yesterday on TV that the Dems needed to win by 10-11% to win a majority in the House, and the 51 GOP senators currently represent 43% of the country, and let us not forget that Trump "won" with negative 3 million votes in 2016. We slide further and further from representing the will of a majority of Americans, and at our own peril. Take action now, or we may, like the proverbial frog in the slowly heated water, wake to a boiling mess!
2
Please, D's, don't make the same mistake you made with health care.
Instead of a full-throated, consistent explanation of why everyone was better off with the ACA than without it, candidates let R's howl away about death panel and tried to hide from it.
Fair and open immigration makes everyone better off. Just like it did for out grandparents.
Own it and stop letting silly fear-based slogans get the best of voters.
3
@CKM No it doesn't. It helps some sectors of the economy while forcing the costs on the rest of us .
7
I find it sad that political parties are forced to push some simple, one-size-fits-all message (like MAGA) even though the biggest problems are the most complex and thus the least tractable to simple solutions.
Democrats instinctively understand this. Republicans tend to believe that the big problems really do have simple solutions. Millions of woefully quasi-educated Americans leave me not surprised so many are daunted by complexity and will either fall for a MAGA or not vote at all.
The Democrats should push "The right solution at the right time". MAGA is like a Rorschach test, making it essentially meaningless as a guide to policy but genius as a rallying cry for whoever says it first. Do Democrats want a similar meaningless war cry? Which won't work as well as MAGA does for Republicans because more Democrats than Republicans are educated enough to recognize the ridiculousness. Independents are more practiced at contending with complexity, and Democrats need to pick them up if they want legislation to succeed in Washington.
Which bears on immigration. "Abolish ICE" is the kind of simplistic call that Trump favors, and if what is meant is replace ICE with something better, it's stupid to give the competition a straw man to rally against. The border is a problem because we lack the resources to process prospective immigrants in a timely manner; hire more judges and more public defenders, with ancillary administrative support (jobs!). Practicality, not ideology, ftw.
1
All the Dems need to do is be tough on issues like immigration, crime, and terrorism. The Dems can own these issues by offering real solutions that solve real problems without going overboard and resorting to bigotry and walls... The Dems choose instead to satisfy themselves by pointing outraged fingers at Trump's bigotry, while not solving any problems themselves, thereby creating a vacuum into which a Trump figure must emerge by force of nature. Trump is the direct result of failures on the part of the left and now the left is just doubling down on all these same failures, moving in exactly the wrong direction... open boarders??? hello???
19
This article claims that higher drug prices are for non-generic “specialty” drugs. This is not true. Prices for common prescriptions such as cortisone cream and antibiotic ear drops are way up. Also, senior Part D drug plans are way up.
5
Bernie Sanders said before he ran for president and had to pander to the illegal immigrants.....in response to a question about the border......."open borders.....that means no country.....that is a Koch brothers idea." Had he stuck to his opinions he would be president today. If the dems persist with this open borders and abolish ICE nonsense they will get another four years of Trump. If we want to help the failed states of central America we need to close the border which will force their governments to do what we say, demand that the corrupt governments have a referendum on joining the USA and then integrate the countries into the USA. That way the taxpayer gets not only the needy people but the taxpayer gets the land and capital. And the suffering millions of central Americans get all the benefits of the USA. I never met a single Honduran who would not give anything to come to the USA and I spent years there among the poor. The only losers would be the oligarchs. There is plenty of Honduran culture in LA. No one has to give up their culture. Let us take this issue away from Trump.
14
This article provides a reminder of just how toxic identity politics is for any country. Many Republicans want to keep as many non-European immigrants out as they can so they can maintain their hold on power. Many Democrats want to bring in as many non-European immigrants as they can knowing they'll probably vote for them. Neither group has the best interests of the country as a whole at heart."Both sides" are being racist, and "both sides" should know this a road that leads to civil war.
9
The Democrats do not have an immigration problem...it is trump who is saying they do. The Democrats have a problem trying to focus on the issues & needs of the citizens of the US. If they would listen to the people & work on Health Care, Higher Wages, Fixing Roads & Bridges, Cleaning the Air & Water back up, they could win hands down. Stop trying to play trump's game. trump is trying to become a dictator through promoting hate & violence. Democrats need to focus on the people.
2
"A majority were from the violence-racked Central American countries El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras; …”
The executive summary of an 8/17 U.N. report titled “Food Security and Emigration: Why people flee and the impact on family members left behind in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras” said that only 9% left their countries to avoid violence and insecurity. 65% left for lack of employment or economic hardship. 19% left because their employment paid too little or their working conditions were poor.
The 9/7/18 Reuters article "Two million risk hunger after drought in Central America - U.N” said, "Lower than average rainfall in June and July has led to major crop losses for small-scale maize and bean farmers in Central America’s “Dry Corridor”, which runs through Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras and Nicaragua. This means subsistence farmers will not have enough food to eat or sell in the coming months, and have no food supplies to see them through the lean time between harvests.”
Most Central Americans are fleeing poverty and malnutrition, not violence. Their countries are overpopulated and undereducated. They cannot raise enough to eat or find employment that will allow them to buy enough food. We should give their countries food aid, introduce less water intensive crops, help them build reservoirs, encourage them to have fewer children and to send their children to school for more years.
We cannot let all of them move here.
32
I used to be a Democrat, but have left the party because of their 180 degree switch on immigration. They used to care about American workers, the rule of law, the impact of immigration fueled population growth on the environment, and the cost of illegal immigration to schools, health care, and public services. Now they seem more concerned about illegal immigrants and keeping high levels of legal immigration than they do about American citizens. Sanctuary cities, drivers licenses, throwing up barriers to law enforcement, in-state tuition, etc, with little or no apparent concern about the impact to the country. I guess this plays well in some parts of the country, but it doesn't sit well with many US citizens who still respect the rule of law and don't want to turn the country into an overpopulated and environmentally stressed, where US citizens have to compete with an ever growing number of foreign workers. 1 out of 6 Americans is foreign born - this is crazy. It's time for an immigration time out to allow for population stabilization, assimilation, and an increase in wages for American workers. The Dems might win some people back if they showed any degree of concern about these issues.
46
Democrats are accused of being in favor of open borders. They reflexively state that they are not. But, they come out against any measure at all that serves to enforce having a legal immigration system, so it sure looks like they favor open borders. That's the practical effect of their "not this, not that" approach to the current immigration system and enforcement.
Here's what I would like to see from Democrats, the answer to two very simple questions:
(1) What kind of legal immigration system do you favor?
(2) How would you enforce it so anyone would pay attention to it?
19
I think we need to look at what's happening in europe with respect to immigration/migration. look at germany, France and italy. German citizens are in an uproar at Angela merkel and the nuber of migrants she has let into the country. Macron has the lowest approval rating of any president ever in france, in part because of immigration issues and the "de-frenchifying" of the population. Italy is turning away migrant carrying boats and sending them to Spain and portugal, who is also loathe to let them in. why?
look at the economies of europe. many countries are in economic disaster, especially the countries who have been letting in large numbers of migrants. why? they are taxing the countries economies. because these euro countries are comparable in size to many states in the US, the economic effect can be seen much quicker. but the same effect will happen here as illegals are using taxpayer provided services and resources. and as climate change begins effecting resources like food and water do we take some of these resources away from taxpaying citizens and give them to 20 million people who entered the country illegally, as criminals?
we need to look at europe and ask if we want to go down the same road.
16
This headline perfectly illustrates the Times' part in the GOP (a minority party and what's even worse, the most corrupt party the US has ever had) controlling the entire country.
If you look at the last decades, it's clear that the only ones who are serious about comprehensive, fact-based immigration reform are the Democrats.
Just READ the bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill that the Senate wrote thanks to Obama's focus on this issue, and you'll immediately know what Democrats stand for here.
YOUR job, as a newspaper, is to do the research and then report on it, rather than writing about anecdotal stuff all while ignoring the very essence of who's doing what in DC.
And not only are the Democrats the only ones truly focused on immigration law reform, they are also the only ones focused on solving the main cause of future mass immigration: climate change.
Compare that to what Republicans do about immigration, once they control DC: they increase cruelty against current undocumented people already inside the US, and that's about it. All the rest is mere rhetoric. There's no immigration reform at all, let alone comprehensive immigration reform (the last bill, which was bipartisan, was turned down by Trump in the spring). There's also no wall. There's absolutely nothing, basically.
Time and again, the supposedly "liberal" media reinforce the totally false idea that Democrats don't have any clear agenda/message, which cannot but increase low voter turnout ... !
3
@Ana Luisa When the Dems say immigration reform they mean amnesty and no border enforcement. We have heard nothing else from them.
7
@Ana Luisa It's not cruel to send Mexicans home. Dems who care about that and little else deserve to lose.
4
I see a lot of comments about "Immigration is clearly out of control" and talking about how we have "open borders", but we should also keep in mind that the US has always been a nation of immigrants and it currently has one of the strictest immigration policies of all Western nations. In many other countries, you are automatically granted some form of status if you have resided there for a certain period, but in the US you have millions of people who have lived here for 20 or 30 years who still have no status. That is one of there reasons why the system is "broken". Many of these people like the Dreamers came here as children. They were educated here, many of them have college degrees and are doctors and engineers who can contribute to the gaps in the workforce in these fields, and to the economy (when they spend their money). They have deep roots here and this is the only home they have ever known. Most of them pay their taxes and take few benefits from the government.
One thing Democrats can stand for is to say that "we are not going to deport such people, we are going to give them a path to citizenship, because they are our neighbors and co-workers and friends". This was the position of even many Republicans like President Bush. Now we have become so xenophobic and scared of the "other" coming to take our country and our jobs, that we don't realize that we are hurting ourselves. And the far right has somehow become mainstream. So sad.
Being against ICE and using terms like migrants when describing illegal aliens may win Democratic primaries in the Bronx and San Francisco but it isn't a strategy for winning at the national level. They have been driven so far left that any immigration policy other than total amnesty and open borders can't even be discussed. Without an actual policy the Republicans will eat their lunch on this issue.
32
I sure hope our Prime Minister is reading these comments. He is going to lose his job over this issue. And for me (a lifelong supporter of his party), it can’t come soon enough.
25
YES! I completely agree with this article.
What do the Democrats stand for? We should all have this information at the ready so we could be canvassing, calling, and helping the Dems get back the house.
Let's get our ducks in a row for 2020! We are so clearly losing people who are voting against their own self interest when they vote for Trump. We need a clearly articulated facts- based positions on immigration and a whole host of issues!
1
No, not all Democrats want open borders or sanctuary cities. I don't know anyone in my large circle of family and friends who support illegal immigration. Our environment, social services, schools, hospitals and labor force are all affected and cannot and should not tolerate this infux of illegals. Enforce the laws we have. Democratic leaders wake up and take note. It isn't enough to simply oppose Trump. Illegal immigration is a huge issue and Democrats need to stop calling for replacing ICE and start listening to their constituents.
31
@Western Gal
There are folks like you all over the country. They have seen what illegal "immigration" has done to their communities and they are livid that neither party addressed it. Hence Trump.
27
How about standing for due process under the law as expressed in the 14th amendment? That is a good start:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
One could certainly argue that "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.." suggests that anyone "under the jurisdiction of the government (which illegal aliens are under the jurisdiction of the government in this sense) shall not be deprived of due process."
That is the responsible and humane answer, protected by the constitution.
A quick fix would be to create a 2018-style Social Security card.
If you have not looked at one recently, do so. You will find it is nothing more than a thick paper card the lists only holder's name and Social Security number.
A secure card ought to list the holder's address, date of birth, be laminated with an electronic data strip on the back.
It is not even as secure as a common driver's license.
Of course, we will never see such a card. It would close an employer loophole.
The dirty secret about undocumented immigration is that it's a vital source of cheap labor for a vast array of industries and agriculture.
Politicians have been yammering about securing the sourthern border for the last 80 years.
Yet, every year hundreds of thousands of immigrants come across the border or arrive with proper visas and simply do not return home.
The immigration problem is similar to the war on drugs in that lots of money and human resources are invested, and yet the fundamental stituation remains the same.
9
Nobody wins by putting up a hard border across the land. Ireland and Northern Ireland are currently struggling to avoid doing exactly that and ripping their communities apart. Gibraltar doesn't want to be cut off by a hard border either.
The culture of a place crosses over national borders. Birds fly over our borders as if they were nothing.
What you need is good relationships with your neighbors and less of the inequality that drives people to flow over the border in one direction. Promote cross-border co-operation and help people to build a better life on both sides of the border.
Countries obsessed with hard borders are always rich countries with poor neighbors who think they can shut the door on the world.
1
@Anthony Flack, easily said from a rich country like New Zealand that has never had to grapple with these issues thanks to the mighty Pacific Ocean and its status as an island nation therein.
9
I wonder how many people who have immigrants working for them (Such examples might be gardeners, cooks, and nannies.) are paying their health care costs for them and their families? Isn't it a bit like Amazon and Walmart depending on the American government to provide their employees with food stamps?
15
It’s very telling that Democrats from California, Washington, and New York want open borders, less enforcement, and more immigrants.
Last time I checked, Trump won because he won Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Ohio, and Michigan.
I wonder what those folks think about immigration and the coastal Democrats.
14
The Democrats elected Trump with their enthusiasm for illegal immigration and they still have not gotten the message. By international standards,the US is a very law-abiding country, and most Americans are deeply offended by a party that celebrates and welcomes lawbreakers. Very few citizens oppose legal immigration by highly qualified people that our country needs, but most are strongly opposed to the open borders policy that seems to be the default for Democrats. The Dems don't use those words, but they oppose any efforts to strengthen our southern border or penalize those here illegally. And then we have Democratic run sanctuary cities, which openly celebrate even felonious illegal aliens - last year, San Francisco proudy acquitted a man who had been repeatedly deported and then murdered a random young woman upon again being released after his latest crime.
The Dems offer zero rationale for open borders and callously refuse to acknowledge the impact on jobs and wages for our low-skilled citizens. They wallow in sad stories about illegal immigrants, deeply concerned about conditions in Honduras but apparently oblivious to our own homeless and entrenched urban and rural poverty in the US. And yet they are still mystified that they cannot win elections except in the liberal northeast and Pacific coast. Aside from any policy considerations, why would anyone reward such tone deaf obtuseness with their vote?
25
First and foremost, separate illegal entry into the US ( a crime) from 'immigration'. There are millions waiting in line who have applied legally.
Just the H1B (Pramila's own people) category some 800,000 just from India have a 151 year wait for a green card. Some 200,000 (their non-US born children) wait an uncertain future where their parents must leave and they the children know no other country. And even if their parents stay, they themselves must leave at age 18. It took my Borad Certified Oral Surgeon (from India) a Cornell graduate 17 years to get his Green Card
Take care of these (and other) legal immigrants first.
The undocumented aliens from Mexico, Central are economic refugees who are cutting in line.
And about ‘We’re not about electing Democrats; we’re about representing the rights of our constituents,’ The Congressmen/women in parts of North and South whose legal constituents did not have enough gas money to escape Florence also feel the same way. They should take care of them first.
Voting all the way against Trump and any every Republican I can find. BUT the way to defeat him and his MAGA stuff is to put Americans first and not get distracted by problems we can't fix and alienate and anger those who legally pull their weight.
5
As an election issue, ICE is a L.O.S.E.R. Think of all the things the right can accuse the left of by their opposition to it. All of it will strongly resonate with their base, and ring true for some who aren't. Democrats probably won't be able to help themselves but they should just not go there. Let the republicans be against stuff. Democrats need to say what they are for, since very few people seem to know.
7
It's telling that Jayapal was "stunned" by the vote on McCarthy's resolution on illegal immigration. Savvy people in that situation, when the facts turn out to be so wildly different than what they were expecting, might reevaluate their understanding of voters' opinions on illegal immigration. But not Jayapal. She's going to form a voting block to "drag [the] party aggressively leftward." Why let facts get in the way of beliefs?
This is a good article overall, but it still doesn't clearly state the "immigration problem" that democrats have. The immigration problem that democrats have is that illegal immigration is deeply unpopular with voters but popular among the left wing of the party (or at least support for illegal immigrants is popular). So democrats are often in the position of supporting illegal immigration (to please the left wing of the party) but trying to appear that they're not supporting it (to appeal to voters). This is why Ralph Northam voted in favor of allowing sanctuary cities in Virginia but then said that if he were to win the governor's election, he would not allow sanctuary cities. This is why President Obama talked a lot about the Dream Act, but then failed to rally support for its passage. It's difficult to pursue two completely contradictory messages, and voters see through it pretty easily.
30
@Bob
Spot on. Trump was elected because of, not in spite of, his position on illegal "immigration". He returned time after time to "build the wall". He picked up a lot of traditional Democrats on this one issue.
Has anyone heard a good rationale for why the left is so enamored of illegal "immigrants"? Is it because they see no difference between legal and illegal immigration?
13
Can someone point to a time in history when mass migrations were effectively curtailed by any government without war or violence?
It is fairly useless to simply decide border crossings are bad: we spend billions every year and the crossings continue. Desperate people are close to impossible to stop.
It isn't so much that the Democrats have no solutions; it is that the closer you look, the more you realize that no palatable solutions exist. We aren't free to decide whether we want a certain level of immigration. Instead we need to decide what to do as migration continues in response to inhuman conditions.
We could address those inhuman conditions, recognizing this as the only difficult and uncertain course, but we would first need to live in a nation of adults. That's not modern America.
4
Actually, desperate people are not impossible to stop. The question is what are you willing to do to stop them?
14
@Sam,
People are creating their own inhuman conditions by over-breeding.
They then migrate to our country- bring their irresponsibility here.
I agree that stopping migration, in the past, has not worked without war or violence. But we are going to have to do something- the planet is literally dying with 7.6 billion people.
Migration, in 2018, is a form of violence against native populations. It is stealing the future of citizens to feed the immediate wants of the irresponsible.
We must try something. We must end this.
19
@Sam. Absolutely not. Every nation has a right to control its borders. We cannot throw our hands up in the air and let all the many millions if the poor enter our country. We’re at 32 million illegals at the cost of 120 billion a year to the US. This is money that should be spent on our country and its citizens.
19
I don’t know if anybody against securing our borders. The question is how best to do that (hint: walls are historically terrible solutions) and what other reforms are needed. The right wing nativists have quashed conversation about sensible reforms, and those conversations need to be led by adults.
5
@Roy Yes, these conversations need to be led by adults who are not condescending to others with opposing views. That leaves you out, Roy.
11
@Roy
Walls work.
Ask Israel or someone who used to live in East Berlin
9
There is no political solution for uncontrolled immigration. At its core, this is an economic phenomenon, now compounded by increased insecurity in Central America.
Political leaders are operating on the false premise that laws and muscular policing of the southern border will shut down undocumented immigration.
It won't.
All that it will do is reduce the northward human flow.
We as a nation lack the vision, intelligence and political will to remedy the situation.
But how?
First, we must address the vast economic imbalance between the United States and our southern neighbors. Nations that create jobs and general prosperity do not see their citizens leave for economic betterment.
Secondly, we must work with Central American nations to enhance public safety.
There is effectively no rule of law, causing hundreds of thousands to flee north, even if that means a perilous journey and uncertain fate in the U.S.
The Marshall Plan rebuilt a devastated Europe because it was in our national interest to do so.
How can it not be in our interest to undertake a similar effort for the southern hemisphere?
The sad truth is that we will be left with politicians demagoguing the issue of undocumented immigration while doing nothing to solve it.
Walls and thousands and thousands of more cops on the border won't stop the unstoppable human tide. It never has and never will.
5
Canada does not tolerate illegal immigration
Why should we?
Moreover it is time to ask a tough question.
How big a population do we want to have in the US?
If we are looking for a 1/2 billion and all the environmental degradation that will come with it we are well on our way.
55
Restricted immigration is a Republican idea. Following what other countries do for many other things like health care and climate change is only acceptable if it coincides with liberal ideals.
Let's start here
"By economics 101 reasoning, the short-run, partial-equilibrium effects of a large influx of migrants are clear. Given a downward-sloping labour demand curve, a sudden increase in supply should be expected to lead to lower wages."
The Economist Jun 12th 2017
A 7000 word plus article without the word "wage" or "wages". Quite remarkable
Immigration of workers willing to work for less lowers wages of those with whom they compete. From construction to Silicon Valley whose billionaire company owners love H1B's
So the Democrats are split
The economic interest of the Wall Street Wing/ Silicon Valley Wing of the Democratic Party is to maximize profits - that includes keeping wages low. Every dollar saved on wages, is one more dollar of profit
Working members of the Democratic party who haven't seen their real wages increase in two decades see immigration of those willing to work for less as a problem. As do owners of small businesses, such as construction businesses that compete with companies stocked with illegal immigrants.
Alas, alas the money that finances the campaigns of the Democratic Party overwhelmingly comes from the Wall Street wing. (Google top ten campaign contributors to Charles Schumer). Not from its working wing.
That a) explains the reaction of Nancy Pelosi and b) adds to the increasing feeling of working Americans that neither party has their interest at heart.
A hole deftly exploited by Trump.
45
@Woof, campaign finance money also seems to come from Democrats real estate developer wing, who demand unlimited US population growth and zoning exemption after exemption. Astonishing in our own state to see a complete 180 in traditional policy roles of the political parties. I.e., Democrats, who largely control our state, capitulate to whatever real estate developers want, while Republicans actually stand up for zoning, including natural resources protection zoning and what was once a 40 year bipartisan consensus to not allow development of any kind along mountain-top ridge lines.
Astonishing that real estate developer/marketing person like Trump, via simple enforcement of long-standing, bipartisan enacted immigration reform, would ultimately do more to stand up for protecting the environment than the unlimited open borders, pro-turbo-charged population growth Democrats. Given other changes, for ex, in EPA regulations, etc., Trump does not seem particularly motivated toward protecting environment but from sheer population growth perspective, Republicans are actually helping fight sprawl, protect water resources, etc.
Huge opening in Democratic Party for someone to take up the mantle left by Barbara Jordan. Trump merely co-opted immigration reform from Jordan Commission, after Clinton abandoned it. Democrat could lead on it with dignity, compassion, and moral leadership that Trump lacks; & combine it with other pro-environment measures.
9
Our national drug addiction, combined with our support for military responses to it at home and abroad makes life very dangerous in many nations. This is a tremendous push. People are fleeing for their lives. Our addiction to cheap goods suppresses wages worldwide. Our addiction to cheap food distorts the entire agricultural sector. Our addiction and greed are the big problems, and there aren't easy or popular solutions. Legalization and regulation of all drugs would be a start. The "war on drugs" can't be won. A significant increase in the minimum wage and application to all workers in all sectors would be a start. First we have to look in the mirror and own our part as Americans in supporting the conditions people are fleeing.
1
@Fred
"Our addiction to cheap goods suppresses wages worldwide. Our addiction to cheap food distorts the entire agricultural sector."
Or, alternatively perhaps, our decimated wages (and the propensity of big box stores to push smaller competing retailers out of proximity) force us to shop for the cheap goods. As it's all that we can afford.
8
Let's get Democrats to admit what they stand for: open borders, no control of illegal immigrants, another amnesty, unregulated voting..... Oh, but they won't want to admit their "positive" agenda, because Americans (outside of sanctuary cities) won't vote for it.
40
@JOHN. That's not what Dems stand for. If you are not a Dem, you would not know. I won't tell you what you stand for, because I do not know. You don't know what we stand for either. We stand for border security done in a humane way. We believe immigration is good, and illegal immigration is bad. We believe that keeping illegal immigrants in camps and separating families is also bad. We do not believe in unregulated voting. We believe in freedom to vote if properly registered with requirements that do not discriminate or results in adverse impact on groups of people. Do you believe in voter suppression? That would be my counter to you, and I am sure you would not like it.
They won't admit it because it's a complete strawman fabricated in your mind to avoid having to come to the table with real solutions not based on irrational fear and disingenuous claims of illegal voting, welfare, and other Republican bogeymen.
@JOHN
Well, that's what your lying GOP "leaders" and pundits tell you.
Now start reading the bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill that the Democrats wrote under Obama, and you'll see how much the GOP is betraying its own voters.
In the meanwhile, they've done NOTHING serious about immigration, even though they control all levels of the government for almost two years now. No wall, no comprehensive immigration reform, nothing, except for a bit of highly mediatized arbitrary cruelty against some illegals already in the country, and that's it.
Time to wake up ... !
1
Seems there are quite a few trolls commenting here, presumably on the GOP's and/or Putin's payroll, who keep trying to falsely cast Democrats as wanting open borders. I guess this plays well to Trump's ignorant, racist base. But, for the other 65% of Americans who have the ability to distinguish misrepresentations and lies from reality, trolls like these only further strengthen the resolve to cast out Trump's Republican enablers on November 6.
6
@fact or friction So are those Democrats who call for abolition of ICE also "on the GOP's and/or Putin's payroll" - because abolition of immigration enforcement is what people mean by "open borders".
Out of curiosity, what is your position on illegal immigration?
7
@fact or friction 22 million illegals? Yes, we have almost open borders. Now what?
8
This title is ridiculous.
The Democrats would have a problem if they opposed the GOP without a better solution. However, Dems know enough to improve immigration on day one. Put families back together. Resolve DACA.
We have to control the border, but we don't have to be terrible people.
5
@Scott Matthews, in January and February of this year, Trump offered full resolution of DACA. Offered literally citizenship for all registered DACA illegal aliens, plus citizenship for up to total of 1.8 million people (i.e., including those who would have qualified for DACA but never registered). In combo package with chain migration reform; elimination of diversity visa lottery; and funding (for the nonsense but symbolic to Trump border wall). The Democrats point-blank refused this offer. So the bluff was called and the Democrats proved they do not actually care about DACA.
10
@Scott Matthews
'However, Dems know enough to improve immigration on day one. '
You had a president for 8 years. you controlled both houses.
And you still changed nothing on immigration.
8
Democrats DO have an immigration problem. Until they can explain why they're so obsessed with illegal immigrants and not the actual working class of legal American citizens, I'm not voting for them.
79
@Kate
Obamacare saves 40,000 American lives a year, which means that it soon will have saved almost half a million LEGAL (as illegals don't have access to it) American lives.
How on earth can you call that doing nothing for "the actual working class of legal American citizens" ... ?
And the Democrats fierce action in 2009 turned around an economy that was shedding 700,000 jobs a MONTH, to then go on creating more jobs than Bush did (and that Trump did, until now, on average). It also saved America's auto industry.
And then there's the protection of labor laws, social security, environmental and work safety, and so many other things.
Conclusion: you must be living on another planet if you imagine that working hard to get comprehensive immigration reform done (which would increase federal tax revenue, by the way, so it would help paying back the record high federal GOP debt) somehow is incompatible with defending legal citizens. In real life, the only party caring about both and doing something about existing problems are the Democrats ... !!
Take a look for yourself and you'll see!
@Ana Luisa Immigrants on welfare do not add to the economy.
1
Who speaks for the little Children?
3
@Jack. Their parents should speak for them - all together back in their country.
15
@Jack You mean the ones in overcrowded public schools while Dems send their kids to private schools?
8
Regarding Dem’s supposed support for open borders:
Not so.
No Democrats I know support open borders. And I am from progressive Seattle! Not Ellison. Not even Jayapal (this verbose article notwithstanding).
Just another Trumpian dog whistle to paint Democrats as leftist extremists & out-of-touch.
15
@J S Also from Seattle here. Our representative in Congress wants to shut down the only Immigration enforcement governmental force we have, and opposes spending any more money to secure the southern border. If you don't want to deport illegal immigrants, and you don't want to stop them from coming in, you have, in effect, open borders. Sanctuary cities + Abolish ICE + no border wall = Open Borders. And unless you don't read any Seattle newspapers you know very well that many people in the Democratic Party in Seattle are in favor of open borders.
12
@J S Accept many on the far left do support open borders (aka "abolish ICE", "only Native Americans are here legally", etc). In fact, this is a rare article in NYTimes that does not at least indirectly call for open borders. But, yes, few leftists use the phrase "open borders" while supporting open borders.
2
@J S
If it walks like a duck, it is a duck.
Dems disingenuously claim they do not support open borders.
But they "resist", obstruct and drag their feet on any serious measure to control immigration, including strong border control.
Sure, Dems disingenuously pretend to support some immigration control, but only when it's wrapped up with giveaways like amnesty, knowing full well that once amnesty is granted, it cannot be reversed, while the plug can be pulled on serious border control as soon as amnesty is granted.
Sure, Obama was more or less as strong as Bush on border control. But Obama pushed amnesty -- including DACA of course, and even tried to go further with DAPA. And Bush and other GOP water carriers for the American Chamber of Commerce never lost a chance to give business cheap immigrant labor and "compromise" with the Dems by going along with amnesty
But the American people were never with either Obama or Bush on immigration.
When given a real choice on immigration, the people voted for Trump.
Now, Bush is history, both with the American people and with the GOP.
Dems are beating a dead horse if they keep deflecting on strong immigration control by always dredging up Bush and the Marco/Lindsay Gang of Eight line. Trump trounced all of those in the GOP -- Marco, Lindsay and the Bushes -- who were soft on immigration control. And then he went on to beat Clinton on the same issue.
5
The Democratic Party "leadership" will keep wandering in the political woods as long as it continues to adhere to the Bill Clinton roots of today's Party. Remember...it was Clinton and his crew who proudly renounced the legacy of FDR, sucked up to Wall Street (for obvious reasons including personal wealth) with the Glass-Stegall repeal and TeleCom Act of 1996, while offering nothing but empty rhetoric and condescension to the Party's historical base of working and poor people of all colors. Sadly, despite his historic presidency and some accomplishments, Barak Obama's failure to prosecute Wall Street mobsters added to fuel to the understandable anger of those left out of the "New Economy", NAFTA and the Great Recession recovery that only benefited corporate and Wall Street elite.
There are signs in the emerging leadership and participation by people of color, the young and women-led movements that the Party may yet learn and grow beyond the Clintonista era. But it better hurry up. It also needs to have some communications savvy and consistency. Give George Lakoff a call, DNC.
14
Mr. Draper, thank you for this insightful, well-presented article. There is much more nuance and "moving parts" involved with enacting legislation than most of us ever hear about, and you provided an enlightening window into the complexities of this most contentious issue of Immigration.
There's middle ground somewhere, and the key will be whether both sides of the aisle can find it.
3
Plato was not a great believer in democracy. Of course, he saw a primitive form of democracy in Athens. For the last 2500 years, autocracy has the principal form of government in Europe.
The US has experimented with democracy since the constitutionof 1787. The Bill of Rights was adopted in 1791.
Illegal immigration provides a test for democracy. Unfortunately, dispassionate discussion of the issues within Congress is overshadowed by protests of the people in which issues are oversimplified.
To protest, you need a message that fits on a placard. But the issues are far more complicated than that.
In the past, the New York Times has often contributed to a thoughtful discussion of important issues. But not to this issue.
The problem with illegal immigration is that the country has changed. We did need immigrants in 1800's when the West still need to be tamed. The US has now run out of room. 100 miles West of my home lies the Pacific Ocean.
Overcrowding has emerged: Southern California has run out of water. Cities like NY and LA are congested. The US has limited resources for medical care. Too many children means we cannot give opportunities to all to become engineers and doctors. There are too many unskilled workers driving down incomes of the unskilled. This is the primary reason for an increasing gap between rich and poor.
The US needs to find a means to stop illegal immigration.
But liberals characterize any discussion of the actual problems as racist.
25
Does she spend any time on her actual constituents, or just the 'hope to someday be' constituents?
29
In 2013 an immigration reform bill passed the senate 62-38, with 14 Republicans voting in favor.
https://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/immigration-bill-2013-senate-pass...
It was never brought to a vote in the House, thanks to Paul Ryan. The Democrats should resurface all the elements of that bill - maybe add a few related to the recent child detention horror - and demand that it's time for the House to reconsider.
Presto, an immigration platform, just like the last one.
4
@kgeographer
FYI: they already did.
Instead of making a priority of wanting Trump to fail, they continue to put country before party and already wrote a new comprehensive bipartisan immigration bill this year.
Guess who rejected it? Trump. Even though it contains full funding of his wall, and his "four pillars" ...
1
In the real world we like cheap fruit and low cost meat and the way that is achieved is by using cheap labor. If employers had to pay a price for exploiting the undocumented our so called immigration problem would be over. Like we don't like China taking advantage of us but love buying Chinese made goods at Walmart.Nobody is being honest about this whole situation If not for cheap labor how many restaurants in New York could stay solvent? Immigration in the third rail of politics and we avoid it like the plague.In truth Svengali would have a tough time solving this. If employers paid a price for hiring the undocumented there would no need for all of this.
6
@Steven McCain You are so right. Greedy employers use the excuse that they are keeping costs down for consumers. Pay a decent wage and I won’t mind paying more at the supermarket knowing that my fellow Americans are being employed and paid adequately. 25 cents more for lettuce? Ok.
9
This is not a political problem; it is a national problem. First, illegals break our laws just coming here. Second, the FAIR Report, we spend $135 billion/year ont those here illegally. Third, those coming here legally and illegally have little to no significant education with over 50% receiving support after being here 5 years. Fourth, illegals have brought diseases thought to be under control or not seen here before. Fifth, some school systems are crowded with illegals and OUR children are not being educated. Sixth, according to the DOJ, 32% of federal prisoners are here illegally. Seventh, those here illegally are competing for jobs with US citizens who do not have a college education, skill or trade. We need to take care of our people first because we are still the most generous country on this earth! And there are so many more reasons to oppose open borders, those here illegally, abolishing ICE and so many of the positions those sympathetic with those here illegally espouse. We need to stand up for America or lose our national identity, heritage, customs and laws which are unique in the world because we are a nation of immigrants!
42
Citing reports from ultra-conservative sources like the Federation for American Immigration Reform isn't exactly screaming honest debate.
Additionally, your DOJ data is massively disingenuous, as it makes no distinction between those who are in custody for immigration itself versus other crime, including known drug runners (who make up a large portion of arrests and hardly qualify as the immigrants being touted as taking jobs and living off of welfare).
Misrepresentation of the facts is the only game you folks know.
It’s not just the Democrats that have an immigration problem.
It’s also the Koch Brothers/Business Roundtable establishment Republicans who support open/semi-porous borders for cheap labor.
This is why Trump beat them all in the primaries.
18
How is it that Democrats have an immigration problem, when Republicans who control both chambers of Congress and the Presidency? As the party in power, carrying out policies like undermining the legal immigration system, rolling back the definition of asylum and separating children from their parents, Republicans have to defend their actions to the American people, not Democrats.
3
@Dan88, at this point, it still takes 60 senators to overcome a filibuster on any legislation. Democrat Harry Reid jettisoned the filibuster for all lower court nominees (i.e., federal bankruptcy courts; federal magistrate judges; district court judges; and circuit court of appeals judges); and Republican Mitch McConnell jettisoned the filibuster for the Supreme Court in response.
At this point, no prior Democratic Senate majority; nor current Republican Senate majority (led by McConnell) has chosen to change US Senate rules regarding filibuster for legislation. So the Republicans cannot pass immigration reform without the Democrats unless they jettison the filibuster for legislation.
For example, not a single Democratic Senator offered support for the GOP's Cotton-Perdue "RAISE" Act (that is based on recommendations of President Clinton's own Bipartisan Commission on Immigration Reform from 1995 and 1996). So the RAISE Act has gone nowhere.
It is not as simple as Republicans control all branches, because there are still some minority party protections and incentives for all to compromise.
2
The days of the triangulating, Clintonian neoliberal "phoning it in" Democrats trying to fake their way to victory (that is, weakly appealing to and/or not overly offending anyone in hopes of limping over the finish line) are over.
To prevail at the polls at a time when our country desperately needs them to, real Democrats are going to have to take strong, progressive stands on issues that matter to working Americans -- in other words, to lead, instead of worrying about what nasty names the Republicans are going to call them next.
6
Is the oft-cited claim that we are now living through the highest proportion of foreign-born residency in the U.S. since the turn of the last century true? If so, then Dems don't need to do a deep dive into nuance: a great many people are sick of feeling like they are living in a foreign country on their own territory. And no, it's not a split binary of right thinkers on one side and xenophobes on the other. Many, many moderates think the situation has gotten way out of hand.
33
I want to share a short story. I'm a legal immigrant.
Two years ago, I was living in an apartment building in New Haven, CT working at a defense contractor close by. I met the apartment super Mike there when I signed the lease. He was probably in his late 60's, white, blue collar, living in one of the units in the apartment. He was incredibly friendly, efficient and just the kind of an old hand one needs to upkeep and maintain a place. Over time, we would talk have friendly conversations about various things, and he mentioned how he planned to vote for Trump in 2016, because he was the only one willing to speak up for the little guy and the blue collar American. He also had a wife and two grown children with no retirement in sight. Mike had also purchased a lightly used Ford F-150 pickup truck after years of driving a beater and saving.
9 months into my lease, the apartment ownership changes hands and the first one on the chopping block is Mike. He's let go, and is replaced by a young Hispanic man with questionable legal status and very little grasp of English. Nevertheless, he also does a good job, is really friendly, but unlike getting a proper unit in the complex like Mike, he gets to live in a small room in the basement, . Moreover talking to him, I find out that he has two kids with two different women, and another one on the way by a different baby mama. He also drives a spanking new Dodge Ram, that is without question out of his budget, given his line of work.
56
@K Unfortunately, your story is one of many across this country. Thank you for telling your story.
5
The Dems have shown they don't stand for anything. They only pay lip service to next woke idea so they don't get excoriated on social media. All they want is power and they don't care how low or divisive they have to be to get it.
19
The main problem is that there isn't really a problem. The undocumented population has been stable for decades and provides needed labor. It's just not politically correct to say that we shouldn't invest a significant increase in resources to the problem. The Republicans know this as well, they are just dishonest about it. They have no desire to actually "secure the border", it's just a way to whip up votes from the gullible. If Republicans were serious, they would have passed, or at least attempted to pass, some type of everify system coupled with crippling fines for employers with undocumented workers.
It's just so sad how much of our political discussion in this country is complete nonsense. The worst part is that everyone knows that it's nonsense but can't, or won't, just be honest.
9
@JT, Senator Grassley offered a serious E-Verify bill in late winter/early spring of this year and the Democrats rejected it point-blank. Not a single bipartisan sponsor from Democrats to sign on.
8
I am a Registered Democrat and I do not support unrestricted immigration. Actually I think we need a break and should halt all immigration and new citizenship until we all Americans can work out a same system.
39
I think there is a simple solution. Lets allow everybody who has not committed a crime into our beautiful country.
There would be no illegal immigration if everybody was allowed in. Lets turn all the ICE agents into Reception Agents and process these travelers quickly and efficiently. ICE can spend resources helping new families immigrate, get jobs and enroll in school.
After a time these immigrants can apply for citizenship.
Problem solved.
1
@Neil: so long as you want a nation with two billion people and most of them homeless and jobless….sure.
The lefty liberal way!
6
@Neil Not when we have a billion people here.
4
We nearly arrived at a comprehensive immigration policy under George W. Bush, but the Tea Party objected. Repoublicans ran on race-baiting and fear-mongering since Nixon.
Now the Trump bigots object to even legal immigration (except from Norway) and Congress won't even consider comprehensive reform.
We can't expect Democrats to be sober about a rational immigration policy while the Republicans support white supremacy.
5
@Occupy Government, guess who joined people like then-Congressperson Mike Pence in voting against the Comprehensive Immigration Reform under G.W. Bush? Yes, Bernie Sanders. If the Democrats had hung together and voted unanimously in favor, the Comprehensive Immigration Reform would have passed under G.W. Bush. They did not. Just enough conveniently splintered apart because they did not want to give the Republicans a "win" on this issue. So here we are.
And I voted for Al Gore in 2000; and John Kerry in 2004, but we cannot ignore the voting record and facts of what happened. Ted Kennedy called it "the last, best chance," and fellow members of his party denied him.
2
@Occupy Government. The bill you are talking about was amnesty. No to that. People who are against illegal immigration are not racist or white supremacists. Why am I wasting my time responding to someone who labels white people supremacists because they are against illegal immigration.
11
Is it worth spending money on enforcing immigration laws?
Absolutely.
The cost of a border barrier and rapid processing/return will be more than offset by lower costs of caring for illegal aliens once they are in the U.S. Moreover, the enforcement of immigration laws will have a deterrent effect that will reduce the flow and costs of illegal immigrants in the future.
Enforcing immigration laws is a wise investment.
But this should be about even more than money. It’s about compassion. It’s about dissuading parents throughout Central America from sending their children on dangerous journeys with human smugglers and having them languish as “unaccompanied minors” in U.S. facilities. It’s about not giving families from the false hope that causes them to spend thousands of dollars and risk their lives in coming to the U.S.
It’s also about fairness for the citizens of the United States, especially the poorer ones whose wages and access to social services is impacted by illegal immigration.
19
It's not like the kids are sent alone across a continent because things are safe and sunny in their home countries...
Brief thought experiment. Let's also assume that the Wall gets built. Let's also assume there are in fact 20 million undocumented immigrants.That's roughly 6% of the US population.
How do we deport 6% of the population? How many years would it take? How many people would it take to plan and enact the process? Do we abandon due process? How much would it cost? Both in terms of actual cost to deport and economic losses due to a massive outflow of both labor and consumers? Before you whine and moan about the Dems not having a solution, propose your own solution. The GOP sure don't have a real plan for any of this, but hate and anger is easy when you've got a base that doesn't question anything.
@Angry,
How do we deport 6% of the population? Over time and carefully.
How many years would it take? Many. This country is capable of doing hard things that take years.
How many people would it take to plan and enact the process? Less every year if we control the border.
Do we abandon due process? No. But we modify it for those here illegally. They should not be able to hold our country hostage and deportation proceedings should be much easier and cheaper.
How much would it cost? Less than doing nothing will cost. Much less than allowing those here illegally to stay (on the long term. See Climate Change).
Both in terms of actual cost to deport and economic losses due to a massive outflow of both labor and consumers? Our economy will change. We should have a highly automated economy- a 21st century economy. Instead we are trying to copy third-world economies from the 19th century.
Deportation of those here illegally is a solution. It won't be easy- but nothing is easy. We prosecute murderers even when it is hard.
23
Cool, so no actual solution, vague hand waving on numbers, empty rhetoric about America coming together.
You have them self deport like Mr Romney suggested.
All you need is a biometric identification card. Every person hired would have to show it. Also make people show it when renting a property. Those people who hire or rent to illegals would be fined.
Clearly if you can't earn money for food or have no place to reside you will be forced to leave. Problem solved.
6
If anyone wants to look at a future without immigrants look no further than Japan. Right now they are facing one of the most serious population crisis the world has seen. On one hand they are not having enough children to staff the needed workforce and on the other, they don’t want immigrants coming in. So right now they are desperately searching for the solution in robotics and AI. If Japan succeeds we will see mass unemployment as AI and robotics further replace workers. If they fail there will not be any solutions but to open their boarders and accept large populations of foreigners that will change their culture and the entire makeup of their country. Right now the US is on the same road with the retirement of the baby boomers looming over us. We need immigrant labor, and if we refuse we will only be shooting ourselves in the foot.
3
@Josue Azul Are you serious? Japan is "facing one of the most serious population crisis the world has seen"? You mean like having practically zero random crime, the cleanest streets in the world, healthiest food, fantastic health care, safe retirement for nearly every citizen and having among the lowest homelessness in the world? I'll take such "population crisis" any day.
But, yes, Japanese population is aging. Luckily they have immigration policy in place that allows them to admit a few Filipinos or Indians as needed. If that's a crisis, they have a full control over it.
13
@Josue Azul. As you said, automation of many jobs is the future so why do we need uneducated low skilled illegal immigrants when they will be competing with Americans for these few remaining jobs?
7
@Josue Azul If you want to see a country with 22 million illegals and millions of legal immigrants look at US. Japan is simply not the same and no one is suggesting curtailing legal immigration.
6
It is not clear why this article has been published to focus just
upon immigration. The party has the same problem of what it stands for on many other subjects. It could have should have used the last year and half working on exactly this
fundamental point. Instead, it has been
tricked and conned, if not seduced, into playing games
on trump's terms. That is, since he plays the villain
so easily they've decided to focus upon the villainy since
it is easy to do so, and also because it is one
of the few themes that finds complete consensus across
the different constituencies of the party (which is what makes
it so convenient).
Meanwhile, what their few constructive messages need to be, and how they need to be pitched to appeal to non base voters, especially mid term weakly attached ones, has never been figured out, it seems. They are a party in need
of a unified, realistic, and succinct message more than "we're against you know who for very good reasons".
Much ammunition has been handed them by what
congress has done, but I wonder how many voters are
genuinely clueless or indifferent about the consequences, who is responsible for it, and what happens
when trumpicans keep all their power.
The Senate races are close and leaning trumpican. So little accurate messaging has gotten through, or as may also be the case, the majority of likely voters are content with the past two years, though they don't like all the lies, which does not change preferences.
32
@bl
to make a long story short;
Why should they have any useful idea on immigration problems when they are not able to offer any viable idea for all other important poltical issues?
Always yelling "Metoo", "How can I tell my daughter" and "Trump is ... (your choice of negative expressions)" for each and everything is definitely never sufficient.
It might be too polemical but that´s just the way it is. Nobody here - RW, LW and moderates of all shades - disagrees.
6
This tone is prevalent these days... "The dems need to be about something other than just being against Trump..."
No... that's a perfectly valid political ideology. The opposite of that guy. That's enough, really. Everything is broken and the next guy in office is going to spend a full two terms just to get us back to zero... just like that last time a democrat came in and cleaned up after republicans.
We have to get back to fundamentals before we can even consider some grand political platform that is going to bring us to utopia.
26
@J It's easy to be against somebody or something, but a lot harder to describe what to replace it with. The GOP found that out with the ACA, when they were out all they had to do was oppose. Now that they're in, they have to build something and that is much more difficult.
The immigration issue may hit the Dems in the same fashion. When they were in, and when they get in again, they will no longer be able to oppose the policy, they will have to come up with a replacement.
@J
If I may add, complex policy initiatives are very hard to explain to a public whole attention span has been trained to respond to twitter and YouTube. The Democrats are a party with ideas, especially compared to the GOP. But if you spend more than 30 seconds trying to explain those ideas you have exceeded the attention span of 2/3 of Americans and accomplished nothing. And these ideas generally require more than 30 seconds to adequately describe. If you take short cuts and approximations to make things comprehensible then there is always some GOP hack just waiting to pounce and beat you to death with a 15 second sound bite that describes your "error". "... What can men do against such reckless hate?"
1
@arusso As a reasonable, intelligent (I think) person, I do not want a 30 second sound byte, I want a full explanation of what you intend to do, and why it will be a good idea.
1
All the people complaining here about immigration -- except Native Americans and slaves -- should check their own family history to see how their family got here.
From the 1880s through the 1920s, people just showed up. They found work and started families.
As with every nationality, after the third generation, they all lost all their ethnic culture and had become totally assimilated as Americans. We are mongrels. A melting pot of all the world's people.
Now, those descendants of immigrants are suddenly exceptional and exclusive.
Pull up the ladder. We're here.
5
@Occupy Government What were population densities in 1905? Life expectancy? The burden on Social Security? (that's a trick question) The availability of clean water and other resources?
17
@Occupy Government You call yourself "Occupy Government." To what end? Do you wish to see all government-based regulatory obstacles to migration into the U.S. completely dismantled so that people from anywhere in the world can once again just show up like they did in the 19th century? Funny, people on the political right would love to do much the same thing with regard to America's health care system and gun laws. Wipe the slate clean, let the Wild West be free again, and just pretend that the population of the U.S. in 2018 is not more than 4 times what it was in 1900.
I thought reactionary forces on the political right were the ones who were nostalgic for the Gilded Age. But I guess they're not alone. We are living in some very strange times.
9
@Occupy Government
Actually from about 20,000 years ago through the 1880s people just showed up. Makes you wonder why they called it the ICE Age.
The Democrats keep talking about "tough, fair" immigration reform.
But then they add that everyone here illegally, if granted legal status, needs to be able to sponsor their relatives.
And people here illegally say any plan for legalization that does not include sponsoring relatives is "unacceptable."
To many people, that is like fingernails on a blackboard.
74
They should be able to bring their family members, after all trump did it for Melanomas parents. republiCANTs are hypocritical. This is the way it always has been and by the way we need more immigrants here, not less! We need to have more immigrants come in. we do not need High skilled professional s, we have them. we need low-level and mid-level people to work. our population is decreasing and as an employer, it has been less than 2% in our area for the past four years thanks to President Obama.
Every week for years a bunch of us have lunch. We talk about immigration all the time in the course of our discussions. All of us are white males. One Jew, one Greek, one Hispanic-Irish, one Chinese, one Russian. All are either first or second generation. The Mexican-Irish one of us has the longest family history in the USA going back generations.
A proposal has been floated in our discussions. Its outline is as follows:
All immigration laws are to be scrapped.
Now and every 10 years after the census, congress will pick a number of how many immigrants will be allowed in the USA until after the next census. Then the cycle continues.
After congress sets the yearly limit, anyone anyplace in the world submits a (metaphorically) 3x5 card. The cards are drawn out of a hat (metaphorically) and those that win get to come in.
A winner can bring into the USA with them, to be citizens, three blood relatives or two blood relatives and a spouse.
The President of the United States, the Congress of the United States, and the Senate of the United States each gets 100 people, with the same conditions as above, that they can bring in. The governors of each state each get 10 each.
Other then the above, there is no, zero, nothing, no more people that can become citizens.
No H1B or the like visa's. A Bracero Program is ok for agriculture.
Anyone and everyone gets an equal shot. No hubris thinking we can pick the next Einstein, Curie or Andrew Carnegie.
Simple.
6
@JD
If the president gets 100... and govs get 10... then I should get like 3...
Better tell the rest of the world not have more than two kids if they want to come here...
Ridiculous. You have to avoid picking winners but you can't just have one size fits all immigration.
1
@JD No. This is a visa lottery. We need to choose our legal immigrants.
5
I'm surprised at how many comments here are still asserting that we are a nation built on immigration, and therefore, if you are opposed to immigration, you are simply xenophobic.
My plea: please understand that this country has significantly grown since our founding, especially since the Statue of Liberty was built! Liberal democrats like me can make a case that, yes, we have too many people, and, no, we are not racist. Traffic jams, housing crises, climate change--those are actual issues that are linked to a country that cannot control its growth! Until those of you who are hurling the race cards process this, this issue will divide us and help the GOP.
71
Just don't have a policy. All the GOP ever says is no. Well Dems don't have to say anything. What happens when you have a policy? When it isn't perfect or not 100% enacted then you're a liar. Why play that game?
All people in America should be treated with dignity and humanity. Done.
2
Heads up, Democrats, learn to play hardball and, for pete's sake, learn to play the long game! Moreover, do not count on the male vote of any race or age.
Nearly 30% of hispanic males and more than 13% of black men voted for the GOP/Trump. These are religious conservative, evangelicals, charismatic African immigrants, Catholic latinos who so deeply hate females and so desperately live, eat, breathe and vote against female success and leadership of any sort that they'll subvert their own race interests to elevate a racist, they'll subvert the rights of their black and brown mothers, sisters, wives and daughters to elevate any misogynist male candidate and a patriarchal religious political party that seeks to deny and remove female rights - especially birth control and full reproductive health choices. Republicans have known for 40 years the portal to election victory is religious males holding hostage the bodies of girls and women
Pay attention and stop voting for stupid fringe left socialists that fragment the party and create the kind of close but crucial elections of the sort the nation has had since 2000 and will for many, many years to come.
10
@Margot
I was waiting to hear someone else point this out. Just one picky detail: you left out the group the GOP has alienated most of all, Muslims, although it may be that Muslim men's attitudes on social issues are better aligned with yours.
One wonders indeed how much Bolshevism the Democrats can afford if they hope to capture the middle. One also might ask how much Nativism the Republicans could shed without losing their base. If they only went so far as to claim they'd "build a better immigrant" through tougher screening and language/civics instruction at the border, perhaps they'd strike the balance they need. Perhaps they could even couple the rate of immigrant admissions to the rate of admissions at Harvard or Stanford. Then again, that might make them look too liberal in the eyes of their base.
1
Open Borders?
We already have open borders, for capital.
If I own a factory, and decide to fire my U.S. workers to move the equipment to another country, the government will not stand in the way, and neither will the two corporate parties. In fact, if you move your factory to another country last year's tax law will tax profits you bring back at 10%, which is half of what he same factory would pay of it stayed here. That is a subsidy to leave.
We now have about $5 trillion in U.S capital creating jobs in other countries, instead of here.
In addition, most imported goods have no tariff at all, and even with Trump's tariffs, the average tax on foreign goods is 1.4%, close to zero.
So our borders are open to U.S. machinery and capital leaving, and foreign goods coming in. That is the miracle of unfettered free trade Republicans have been selling for decades.
Republicans are for Open Borders for global corporations.
When a factory leaves, and fires its workers, the new workers shop and pay taxes in a foreign country, expanding their economy.
But workers are stuck behind closed borders, and when they cross borders become illegal immigrants, which US employers use as a weapon to lower wages and benefits here.
Instead of fasttracked "free trade" for global corporations, which gives all of the advantages to employers at the expense of workers, we need fair trade slowly and carefully negotiated to protect workers around the world.
Think before you believe propaganda.
77
Careful there pal, getting awfully close to the truth
2
What if you like how the country was say around 1977 or so?
Why is it a moral imperative to change the population and demographics of the nation to fit the questionable preferences of new arrivals? I didn't travel to their nation and demand change.
It could be that the third most populated nation in the world needs even more people. It could be. But it's not a given.
People who want ever increasing change and gloat over perceived demographic swamping of those they don't like need to make the moral and practical case for why their preferred policy is good. They need to make the case as to why ever increasing immigration is good for American _citizens_.
Instead their sole concern seems to be for foreign nationals. People are starting to see through that, which is part of the reason why Trump was elected, why Macron has stolen much of LePen's agenda and language, why Salvini has the position he does, etc.
60
@Lilo Perfectly said. Thank you.
6
I'm not sure that I buy into the high moral ground some of the Democrats mentioned here pretend to stand on.
The assumption on their side has always been that immigrants or their children will eventually become naturalized citizens and fill up their dwindling voter base. Perhaps this is the real reason why they oppose any genuine effort to curtail illegal immigration, introduce unrealistic legislation, take absurd political positions that baffle everyone but the very extreme left voter.
Perhaps it's the old game of politicians keeping themselves in power, and not an actual concern over the people.
If not for the millions of naturalized immigrants in California and New York City, would Hillary Clinton win the popular vote? Would these Democrat controlled cities change drastically in who they elect?
The interesting development is that many educated naturalized citizens have moved away from the Dems, recognizing that the immigration policies and social justice causes do not represent their actual needs.
43
We know what Democrats stand for on immigration.... they stand for unrestricted entry of any and all persons who they think will become future liberal voters. Or even people who they can get to vote while still illegal. Their ultimate goal is to swamp America with people of color who will return them to power for generations .
56
@Bill
Instead of going after illegals why don't the Dems come back home and nurture American citizens who might vote for them. The Dems have lost all purpose and meaning fighting for lawbreakers time and time again. They are hopeless.
42
@Bill Reality check. The country’s estimated 27.3 million eligible Latino voters, a subset of whom constitute the dominant demographic group among legal immigrants, consistently turn out in low numbers. Never was this more apparent than in the 2016 presidential election, when Hillary Clinton’s welcoming stance toward undocumented immigrants failed to generate any increase in Hispanic turnout, even against an opponent who began his campaign with a speech characterizing Mexican immigrants as rapists and drug dealers.
"The real question, though, is what can we do that dramatically reins in enforcement."
Democrats. Listen to me. The sentiment reflected in this quote is both strategically and morally disastrous. If we get power the answer is... to hamstring law enforcement?
The American electorate, both liberal and conservative, overwhelmingly wants laws fairly and consistently enforced. This whole notion of abolishing ICE or ignoring duly formed policy is preposterous. What Ms. Jayapal could do for us is lead the way to better policy. But apparently she's got, well, NOTHING. Nothing but underfunding enforcement which--trust me--is the road to permanent minority status.
66
Well said.
ICE is not the enemy. The enemy really isn't even Trump although his policies and actions anger us and for me are simply horrible. As this article points out, the enemy is a Congress who has failed us for many years and by failing to address a viable, supported and reasonable immigration policy. All administrations for years have failed to support Congress in pursuing a much needed reform to immigration policy.
Harming ICE in any way is just wrong. at this point I will state my preferred political positon: Democrat although in years past I simply voted for the candidate I preferred.
The real issue that plagues the immigration debate is our current political voting with regard to terms of office. There is a saying: absolute power corrupts absolutely. After multiple terms members on both sides only want to stay in office. Some become entrenched in their thinking and start thinking their members must think their way or else. McConnel and recently Grassley have demonstrated this. Yes, some Democrats are guilty as well.
The strictly partisan voting must stop, but can only stop when both sides agree to stop it. The recent debacle with Kavenaugh started with the games from McConnel refusing to seat justices under Obama and continues with their ramrodding of nominations under Trump. If the Republicans remembered they work for all constituents, then I think Democrats could agree. Let's get back a Congress that votes its conscience with input from constituents.
2
"..there are roughly 22.1 million, according to a new Yale study) cannot vote." referring to undocumented persons in the U.S., I agree, and there are about one half of those living in California, in my opinion.
As such immigration and illegal immigration in the U.S. is a huge issue in California.
If President Trump and our present Attorney General for the U.S. were to enforce their policies in California, the state could collapse.
Illegal immigrants and their families, children pay rent.
Renters in California pay the mortgages and the property taxes which holds up the State. We, in California, are composed of 44 percent or higher (if we had the true data) renters.
ICE is vital to our national security.
I am rather shocked that some Democrats don't seem to understand the vast global work that ICE performs. ICE intercepts gun trafficking to Africa, for example.
Clearly, what happened this year involving the escapees from Honduras and their children must not be repeated by our law enforcement officers and their commanders.
However, we must change the immigration procedures, not the institution of ICE.
12
@RR
It costs the state $6,000 per child for public education, not including other social service costs--three children $18,000 per year. So do their taxes from jobs that are most often slightly above minimum wage or cash, depending, cover even a tenth of taxpayer costs for education and social--doubt it.
9
@RR
Minor point: "Illegal immigrants and their families, children pay rent."
It costs the taxpayers of California $6,000 per child per year for public education--not to include other social resources costs. Three children, $18,000--that's a lot of rent subsidy.
12
@RR, I think what you're saying is that rents in Los Angeles and the San Francisco Bay Area would go down if illegal immigrants were no longer renting apartments. Imagine, hundreds of thousands of young American and legal resident kids could actually find reasonably priced places to live. What a nightmare that would be.
15
The Dem position on this issue is completely out of touch with the American public. For all Dems like to talk about the poem on the Statue of Liberty, they ignore the actual history of immigration in America.
My relatives were vetted. They were told to learn English. They had job skills comparable to the population of the day. They did not expect the American public to pay their medical bills or put food on their table.
If they were unable to support themselves, they left. Today's would be migrants do no such thing. They fully expect not only the right to come here but also their alleged right of access to public services.
This is unsustainable. Dems need to stop pandering and act rationally. Anyone who wants to come here should be in good health with at least basic English fluency and a high school diploma. If they don't, they should be deported
This is not an old age home or a support valve for Latin America's excess population. Americans like me should be not asked to support ungrateful, unwanted foreigners who contribute nothing to this country and bring nothing here but a chip on their shoulder.
Dems who don't understand this will rightfully lose elections.
110
@I'm Done. So true.
19
Plato was not a great believer in democracy. Of course, he saw a primitive form of democracy in Athens. For the last 2500 years, autocracy has the principal form of government in Europe.
The US has experimented with democracy since the constitutionof 1987. The Bill of Rights was adopted in 1791.
Illegal immigration provides a test for democracy. Unfortunately, dispassionate discussion of the issues within Congress is overshadowed by protests of the people in which issues are oversimplified.
To protest, you need a message that fits on a placard. But the issues are far more complicated than that.
In the past, the New York Times has often contributed to a thoughtful discussion of important issues. But not to this issue.
The problem with illegal immigration is that the country has changed. We did need immigrants in 1800's when the West still need to be tamed. The US has now run out of room. 100 miles West of my home lies the Pacific Ocean.
Overcrowding has emerged: Southern California has run out of water. Cities like NY and LA are congested. The US has limited resources for medical care. Too many children means we cannot give opportunities to all to become engineers and doctors. There are too many unskilled workers driving down incomes of the unskilled. This is the primary reason for an increasing gap between rich and poor.
The US needs to find a means to stop illegal immigration.
But liberals characterize any discussion of the actual problems as racist.
59
The response to this article, as to all articles on Immigration, displays once more the lack of Compassion for those less fortunate and the selfish nature of Americans, both Republican and Democrat.
If the backlash to sensible and compassionate immigration reform is this intense now, what will it be 10 or 20 years from now when the effects of Global Climate Disaster forces hundreds of millions to flee their countries due to food and water shortages.
If you want fewer immigrants, vote for those who will take concrete action to curb greenhouse emissions and put us on a path to eliminate fossil fuels.
2
@Lee
I'll consider voting for just about anyone who puts birth control in the water of all 2nd and 3rd world countries that have already produced since the 1960s 3 billion excess babies with the next 3 billion coming from the same people in the same places.
10
oRepublicans don't care about solving illegal immigration. If they did, they'd be jailing employers who hire them. They'd fund the IRS and give them broad investigation powers to pursue payroll fraud by such employers. As it stands, they love illegal immigrants: Cheap labor for their corporate paymasters, a divisive wedge to stoke their xenophobic base, and an excuse to further militarize another aspect of the American existence.
The fact of the matter is, a century of American intervention has destroyed and destabilized Central America. You want to stop illegal immigration? Fund a new Marshall Plan to rebuild the Western Hemisphere. End the Drug War. Encourage birth control and family planning. Stop propping up dictatorships.
12
@Angry
I know plenty of Democrats and Democrat business people who hire illegals. One of the reasons I pulled up stakes and relocated my family to another part of the country was to escape a liberal Democrat sanctuary city, and I'm as bedrock centrist as it gets.
8
The DEMS.
With the most liberal president ever for a whole 8 years, in control of both houses, changed nothing at all on immigration.
They sold ‘change you can believe in’, and delivered ‘can you believe we have not changed?’
Now their socialists are marching to the beat of ‘abolish ICE’
And their voters are liking what they hear and clapping enthusiastically.
Are Democratic voters so easily duped? Do you really think that voting for Ocasio-Cortez will result in an abolished ICE?
Just look at this lady, she introduced her bill to replace ICE and planned to vote against it. Wow. What’s that all about?
Looks like pure political maneuvering and nothing more. And democratic voters cannot see this?
We need immigration reform, but it is clear the DEMS will not move a finger to accomplish that.
Under the DEMS nothing changed. Well, ok, highest ever deportations is what did happen, that’s the one thing that changed.
If you care about immigration, think about this before voting Democrat again
27
The US has over 12 million undocumented Democrats.
34
@R. R.
That number has increased to over 20 million according to a Yale study cited in this news piece.
48
This entire article can be summed up thus:
Immigration is a divisive issue. It's not a left/right issue, it's essentially bipartisan. The democrats/the left got it wrong when they start even mentioning 'Abolish ICE' because the adults in the room (and indeed, even most voters) know better.
Immigration and identity issues feels great and you gets you lots of retweets, but the basic political currency is not there. Just like gender issues and who uses what bathroom, "everybody" on social media loves you for it but the underlying questions lead invariably to a quagmire.
The first step in taking back the government is focusing on making popular proposals to address the 'real' issues facing everybody else.
18
@Clotario
The Democrats got it wrong, beginning in 1965 with LBJ's wholesale rewrite of fully functional American immigration law that had stood since 1930. A decade later, Republicans had looked around and figured out how to exploit the tens of millions of immigrants in the labor market AND the Democrats politically, as well as poor whites, blacks and all women. And here we still are with the same flawed laws and political genetics, with cities and states going broke taking care of generations of low skilled, low education, high breeding and high crime immigrants.
It is LBJ and Democrats that opened the door to 1 million legal 3rd world immigrants PER YEAR, along with 1 million illegals in many years over the last 50. The U.S. has DOUBLED its population just since the 1960s. We now have a population of 330 million of which a minimum of 100 million are legal and illegal immigrants, most of whom are 3rd world Latino, African and Asian with disparate religions, cultures, languages that do not jibe with the U.S. and never will; studies show 2/3 of immigrant homes do not even speak English. The cost to taxpayers for just the welfare given illegals is more than $2 billion per year. All of this is insane and always was avoidable. Yeh us.
10
Really tough issue.
As a liberal minded neighbor to the north, I read the immigration articles with dismay.
Separating parents and children is abhorrent.
And even in spite of all the risks and trauma, thousands of migrants are still showing up. There aren’t enough tracking bracelets available to ensure they show up for their court dates.
NYT, I haven’t read any stats about how many people show up for court in these cases. For example, do 95% of the individuals processed show up for their court date? Do 75%? Do 25%?
If individuals have respect for your refugee laws and plead their case, then they merit some attention.
Otherwise, I cannot believe I am saying this..building a perimeter might not be as insane as originally thought.
27
the times published an article several months ago that said the number of people who show up at the hearings are ridiculously low. I don't remember the exact number but I want to say it was under 10%. they feel they have a better chance of staying in the country if they just disappear than if they show up in court. now are these the type of people I want to forgive and allow them free citizenship status.
6
The Democrats would be wise to just leave this issue out for now. It need not be decided this year or even in 2020. Immigration policy has ebbed and waned over the decades and for now it should be left alone until other crucial matters are worked out. I for one, believing in Hindu teachings of reincarnation, karma, and dharma, believe that people were born where they were born for a reason and have no implicit right to take up permanent residence anywhere in the world, any more than strangers from the street have a right to live in my apartment. Maybe in some paradisal future there will be unlimited open immigration. That future is not now and it will take much time for all this to sort out. The Democrats will lose voters if they make it an issue.
15
While I'm a coastal liberal, I think coastal democrats have become too obsessed with the culture wars and the higher moral ground on issues like immigration and LGBTQ, while largely ignoring the "meat and potatoes" issues that face white Democrats in Trump country: better wages, better jobs, and secure health care. Republicans have effectively alienated these centrist Democrats through the demonizing of the "other," cries of socialism, and the weakening of unions. While Democrat leadership needs to continue bashing Trump's cruel policies, it must offer a clear plan of hope for the middle class whose struggles are more economic than cultural.
43
As a liberal, I agree with you on list of the pints you made. Except you belief that liberals ‘demonize the other.’
1
The culture war nonsense were experiencing again is due to right wing propaganda. They can't complain about useless Democrats failing in government because the GOP controls everything, and they need something minor to distract their captive audience from the fact that Republicans are fundamentally incapable of governing.
1
No, it's the republican problem. When are all those children going to be re-united with their parent(s)? The way this was handled was a horrific disgrace. They (the republicans ) have swept this issue under the rug. How very sad.
1
@Sari. They could have remained with their parents if their parents hadn’t used them as pawns to gain illegal entry into the US.
8
Both Democrats and Republicans are going about this wrong, because each party makes assumptions about a situation instead of working from common facts. It is as if architects plan an edifice and are ready to start building without assessing the condition of the subsoil. The very first thing to do is to get an actual handle on who is in the country illegally, and where they are living. They way to do this is to require all illegal immigrants to register their names, addresses, and fingerprints at their state DMVs within a year, and make this registration a condition of ever being granted legal status. Once we've got this, and these illegal immigrants are given a temporary registration biometric card, these cards become a condition of being temporarily permitted to be in the country until a policy is worked out Failure to have a card after a year is grounds for immediate deportation with no chance of ever attaining legal residence, period end of discussion.
Only through a registration system will we know if we have 22 million, 12 million, or 5 million. Once we know who is here and where they are living, we can assess the effect on a state by state basis on public services, employment, local rental housing markets, and the like. Let's do first things first.
4
I would say that over 20 million illegal immigrants living in the US and using our public resources is a problem. To put that into perspective that represents the combined populations of 4 or 5 European countries. Our resources are limited, and the more illegal immigrants using them leaves less for American citizens in need.
82
I call myself a moderate Democrat. But the one thing that I think Trump got right is this— Americans don’t want to be overrun with foreigners, and that’s what they feel is happening right now. The percentage of foreign born, is the highest it’s been in nearly 100 years. The US cannot be the escape valve for anyone and everyone any longer. Other countries need to work on making themselves better and more attractive to their own citizens. The one thing we can do is promote women’s health and birth control, planet wide!
As Democrats, we need to wake up to reality that a very large number of Americans do not want even the suggestion or possibility of unfettered immigration.
96
By the same token, Republicans in general. and Trump in particular should never have demonized this issue. Yes, something needed to be done; but building walls, and separating children from their parents, and espousing all the political rhetoric as only Republicans can do, the way they do it, is hardly the answer.
Even the Japanese-Americans wromgly incarcerated in detention camps during WWII, at the very least, were able to keep their families together.
America was wrong. and handled that situation very badly.
If any lessons were to be learned back then, then wherever applicable, they should've been implemented.
Instead, Trump in his jingoistic zeal, managed to take a problem. and make it worse.
It's time both sides meet in the middle, and come up with something a bit more humane.
298 comments, 99% of which want some combination of the law to be enforced, no illegal immigration and reasonable limits on legal immigration. Yet, never an article in the NYT about voters' desire for these items, never a story about members of congress who support these positions.
Makes it easy for Trump to call us the elites, to say the media is lying. What is wrong with us?
137
There are humane reasons for supporting immigration. Certain of the economic reasons (especially when immigration is not merit based) are debatable. Unfortunately, the mainstream media won't enable such debates and tends to push simplistic narratives such as "they pay taxes", "they do jobs Americans won't do", etc. -- Arguments which are not compelling when closely examined.
Nearly all countries seek highly qualified (in terms of education, skill, ability to invest and create jobs) immigrants. Few countries support mass immigration - and prefer the benefits of social cohesion.
I wish the NYT would provide more comprehensive discussion of immigration, rather than just the leftist/progressive talking points.
32
Hi, Democrats. Here's some input from an independent voter.
You want to stand for something regarding immigration?
- state very clearly that after the election you in Congress want to start working, immediately, with Republicans to pass laws to fix things.
- state that you recognize that compromise between the parties is your goal, not just getting things your way, and that you want to address the concerns of all Americans, as well as our guests.
- Abolish ICE? Drop the dumb ideas, please.
Good luck.
12
Yes, because reaching across the aisle has worked so well for us over the past, oh, right or ten years. (I’m kidding, of course.)
1
“Pramila was one of the leaders who most forthrightly said, ‘We’re not about electing Democrats; we’re about representing the rights of our constituents,’ ”
Pramila, your constituents are citizens and legal immigrants, not the undocumented.
Pramilla Jayapal was elected to what has been traditionally seen as the most liberal congressional district in Seattle. Most of her voters likely knew her penchant for open borders. Other districts are less progressive, but also have sizable numbers of
undocumented migrants.
When it comes to awarding Congressional seats, our country has not been limiting the count of people who live in each state to citizens and legal residents. We have included undocumented residents in the total. The result is that states with lots of undocumented immigrants have more seats than they would otherwise. The people who hold these seats know some of them might be out of a job if the undocumented were not counted.
Congressional representatives in districts with heavy concentrations of undocumented immigrants have come to see the undocumented as their constituents, even if, unlike Pramilla Jayapal, they did not set out to get elected just to get a progressive policy on immigration.
We should reapportion congressional seats according to the numbers of citizens and legal residents living in each state. The undocumented should not be seen as constituents.
53
@ann - the undocumented are consitutents, and if they're on the books, they're taxpayers, too (even without, if you count sales taxes). And they're people.
Our economy has a lot of bits that run on lower-cost labor than Americans want to take on. So if you don't want undocumented workers being counted, taking away representation from rural counties as well as big cities, then double the price of chicken and produce. Boost construction costs. Make lawn-care and spot labor prohibitively expensive for most people. Imprison people who don't pay full taxes for the nanny.
You can blame big cities if you want, but out in the country, economies that might be tanked are boosted by meat packing plants and other enterprises - so representatives out in Steve King land might lose constituents, too, if the undocumented are also uncounted. And lose more constituents if access to cheap labor was cut off - because rural collapse would then accelerate.
1
@ann HAHA. Try that. The current Dems are not even OK if people are asked if they are a citizen or not on the census.
CRAZY!
6
@b fagan
"...double the price of chicken and produce. Boost construction costs. Make lawn-care and spot labor prohibitively expensive for most people. Imprison people who don't pay full taxes for the nanny."
You really can't see how the notion of entitlement to cheap labor might have helped the Dems get their tails kicked over the last couple of elections?
1
Although I support immigration reform, the consensus between myself and my very liberal friends is that Democrats need to primarily focus on the people who are already here: legal residents and citizens. At times, it seems as if some D's are more concerned with the problems of illegal immigrants (and letting more and more into the country) rather than the ones who came here legally. Voters are worried about the economy: jobs and health care, and I would prefer that my elected constituent spend his time working on the problems that we in his district face. "Abolish ICE" is not a rallying cry for those who live here legally, work hard, and pay their taxes; it is a slap in the face.
Democrats: if you want the votes of actual registered voters, you may want to focus on their problems first.
58
@Johnny Gray
It should not ever be the case anymore that American kids go hungry and homeless, their parents unemployed for decades now in many parts of the country. We did not need 100 million cheap labor grass mowers, "nannies", roofers and fast food workers.
9
Why is the NYT giving a forum to this woman. Her ideas are radically different from those of Democratic voters. The Dems I know want Immigration law reform with a commitment to enforcing whatever law is passed including e-verify. Illegals shouldn't receive public benefits and any public official giving them out needs to go to jail! A guest worker program should be passed and any worker who overstays his visa should be deported. Also no guest worker family admittance permitted. People we can do this.
3
This long article didn't mention that the George W. Bush Adm. worked on an immigration reform bill in his second term that went no where because republicans in congress would't support it. I worked on an inter-agency task force that helped draft that proposal. Our immigration law is seriously broken, and badly needs to be updated. A reasonable compromise that addresses illegal immigration. facilitates lawful immigration, and benefits our nation economically in the long run, is entirely possible to draft, but in our hyper partisan political landscape it will never pass. Trump and the Republicans love to sell fear to their base. It doesn't cost them anything and it makes struggling white folks think they are doing something for them while they really taking care of the billionaire class.
5
@James Fear. That immigration bill was an amnesty bill and that is why it was defeated and rightly so.
24
@Olivia
Actually, Olivia, the bipartisan bill passed in the Senate but John Boehner wouldn't bring it to the floor in the House due to that oh so democratic "Hastert" rule.
@James Fear, the immigration reform bill in spring and early summer of 2007, during George W. Bush administration, would have passed if all Democrats hung together and voted unanimously in favor of it. They did not. For example, who joined then Congressperson Mike Pence in voting against? Yes, Bernie Sanders. The Democrats did not want GOP to get a "win" on this issue and let Bush get any credit for it. They splintered apart.
Ted Kennedy, still alive then & serving in the Senate, called it "the last, best chance." His fellow Democrats denied him.
2
The original illegal immigrants were the European settlers who landed in Plymouth, Mass., and those who followed thereafter and expanded to the western frontier. Every present-day native born American citizen has had ancestors who, at some point, came to this country illegally and through "chain migration".
@dba Do you think there is as much unoccupied land in the US now as there was in the 1700's? Or even in the early 1900's?
20
@dba The White Europeans brought diversity to the New World. Diversity is good. Always good. It's so good, the US has legislated diversity. We call it equal opportunity.
8
@dba,
The original illegal immigrants to the Western Hemisphere were the ancestors of the native Americans.
They crossed from Asia and stole the land from the mastadons.
In fact every human being, outside of the East Rift in Africa, is an emigrant or descended from one.
What is your point?
8
The Democratic Party used to stand up for working class citizens. Now the only working class people they care about are foreigners and illegal immigrants.
They don't care about the tens of millions of Americans in poverty- they demean those people and talk about all the jobs they won't work. It is insulting.
Wages should have increased- instead the Democrats continue to import millions of illegal immigrants keeping wages down.
How much poverty and crime do we really need to import into this country?
And every immigrant means more emissions- we are making climate change so much worse by importing tens of millions of people into our nation.
Enough. The Democrats must moderate and support decreased immigration and mass deportations or else the Republicans will continue to gain and we will have an extreme right-wing reactionary government.
And I will support it if it means immigration is controlled and based on the what benefits citizens- not large companies and the rich.
66
I don't know. Knowing what they are against and having no idea how to fix things realistically seems to have worked for Republicans. They control the entire government.
1
If you are on the same side as Bush Jr, who was all for expanding immigration in the name of cheap labor, you’re probably not taking a progressive stance. The anti Trump backlash is turning liberal Democrats into unwitting pro corporate, pro globalist, anti labor activists, all in the name of immigrant rights. Here’s an idea: scale back free trade, legalize drugs that turn Latin America into dangerous narco states, and stop propping up pro US allies in their elections, instead allowing them to have fair and democratic elections. Then people won’t need to flee to the US to live in trailers earning $2 an hour. Funny enough, both the Kochs and the far left are opposed to this.
16
Who on the far left opposes this? What actual socialist is against non-intervention, self-determination, worker protection?
1
@Angry ask the ‘pro-immigration’ leftists if they are for scaling back immigration and having a tighter border but making those changes instead. I think you’ll find that while they might want those proposals, they are not interested in stemming the tide of cheap labor for big agriculture.
I do think it's problematic for Democrats that some of them are known for basically espousing the belief that Americans with immigrant backgrounds (i.e. everybody except for indigenous peoples) are hypocrites for favoring any kind of tightening of immigration and citizenship laws as opposed to their loosening.
Why such an absolutist attitude about how others should think about this matter? If you believe it's reasonable that gun owners should favor at least some restrictions on the sale and ownership of firearms, I'd say it's just as reasonable to expect that even foreign-born U.S. citizens may favor a tightening rather than an eternal, never-ending loosening of America's immigration and citizenship laws. And such foreign-born, non-white Americans DO exist.
Sovereign, independent countries DO have the right to restrict and tighten their immigration and citizenship laws as their citizens find appropriate. Ireland did away with automatic birthright citizenship in circa 2004, via a national referendum. The world did not end, and I guess some people who were maybe planning on having their babies born in Dublin had to figure out another way to get that coveted E.U. citizenship for their children. Was this a crime against humanity committed by the people of the Emerald Isle? Must the Irish atone forever for their role in British imperialism (a disproportionately large number of British Army soldiers in India, Africa, and elsewhere were from Ireland)? Is that the issue?
25
Lyndon Johnson told Martin Luther King, Jr. “now” was not the time to assure everyone, no matter color, ethnicity, gender, the right to vote in 1965, even though the 19th Amendment was passed in 1920! Johnson said the war on poverty needed to be addressed first. (similar to Obama in the recession and his reluctance to take on immigration).
When people were determined to non violently demonstrate and march by the thousands, and were murdered and beaten, attention was finally given to Civil Rights.
Why are we not joining together to save immigration equality? We’ve lost our guts - even to save little helpless children who the bully of all bullies, Donald Trump, has torn from parents and families. And his cabinet and agencies think that is ok. What is wrong with courage and bravery in this country? Do people, from both parties think little kids from other countries, but who indeed are on our lands now, are not worth it?
Shame on us.
@MIMA Other people have a right to their own priorities and values.
13
I am a liberal and I always vote Democratic. However, I am sick and tired of hearing Democratic leadership constantly bemoaning the fate of illegal immigrants, fighting to insure tax funding for healthcare and housing for illegal immigrants, doing nothing to stop the shameful job transfers under the H1-B program from Americans to foreigners, and howling to make illegal immigrants American citizens.
What about our own citizens? There are plenty of Americans who still don't have adequate healthcare, and who have housing problems, and need better jobs and wages. Democrats better get this message before they find themselves losing the midterms.
81
Whether it’s eight hundred thousand or two million per year, set a target number for legal immigration that most experts agree will be both absorbable and beneficial to the economy over time. Social Security and Medicare will be difficult to sustain in any country with our low birth rate, adequate immigration levels are critical to closing the gap. Resolving the existing alien resident problem would not count towards those numbers. Provide a ten year path to citizenship for anyone with a clean record who has already been here for five years. Come up with a responsible way to deal with the parents of US born children, perhaps making them long-term resident aliens. The “Dreamers” should also get the ten year citizenship treatment, or better.
Increase border security funding by several billion dollars per year to simultaneously reduce violations and ensure rapid, straightforward and humane treatment for all non-violent non-citizens who break the rules. Do enforce a rapid and humane send-back policy for most typical violators going forward. We must be a world leader in the humane processing of violators, especially children. Establish a new international refugee management consortium that jointly pays for, champions and manages new and innovative approaches all over-stressed western democracies can stand behind.
Be both realistic and fair, that is all anyone can ask. We are better than this.
4
Republicans have an immigration problem, too. A lot of business not only want tax cuts, but cheap labor. Farmers lean Republicans and vote for Republicans. Maybe start there?
44
@V Lucky for us businesses don't vote and Republicans or at least Trump understands that. As for farmers there might be a small shift but most are pretty conservative.
4
What America has is actually is an administrative problem. Not enough people, money and political will to do the fairly straightforward job that needs doing - checking immigrants at the border to make sure they're not criminals, or carrying a communicable disease. What if we built that wall - out of legal immigration facilities? Immigrants fill out their paperwork, get a health exam, and they're good to go. Yes it'd be hard. Yes it'd be expensive. But isn't it the answer we collectively waste a ton of time avoiding?
2
"Immigration problem" sounds a little to much like "Jewish question" to me. There isn't a problem, any more than there was a question; it's just a cynical attempt to politicize something that didn't need to be politicized. We have a border, we should enforce it. Existing laws can do this (along with things like e-verify). We should continue to welcome new immigrants into the country and a reasonable and sustainable level. Beyond that, we should treat all manner of immigrants with dignity befitting the fellow humans they are.
9
" “The audits we characterized as slow-moving raids.”
Jayapal, an immigrant herself, supports massive migration, lack of border patrol and employment verification... and labels this as supporting her constituents? Which constituents?
43
The environment, healthcare,gun control,gov't.transparency,women's rights, minority rights, job training,infrastructure for a start.
1
@susan mccall, it is not supporting the environment to support de facto open borders and turbo-charged population growth via immigration. Ask the Colorado River or the Rio Grande River and the ecosystems that once depended on them what they think of the explosive population growth in California and the desert Southwest the last 30 years?
The Democrats are right to support family planning, both domestically and internationally, but in reality many of their policies are anti-environment. They support zoning exemptions for real estate developers over and over again, even at the expense of natural resource protection zoning. Residents of Vermont have learned that even the "renewable" energy push has a negative environmental impact as it requires gobbling up thousands of once protected open space acres for industrial energy solar panel 'farms'; mining for storage batteries; dynamiting and clear-cutting mountain tops for wind towers, etc.
1
Peace and prosperity are hard opponents.
4
Mark my words, the Dems should actually ask LEGAL IMMIGRANTS how they feel about those wishing to cut in line. The Dems WILL LOSE both houses again and quite possibly the WH if they don't tackle this head on. Stop placating to law breakers, stop fighting tooth and nail for law breakers fight as hard if not harder for those who did things the right way and for American Citizens or you will lose again. You can count on it. The Dems can't say they haven't been warned.
50
I made a comment here earlier in the day regarding an interview of Hillary Clinton on CNN.
I stated she had presented no ideas for democrats to promote. I was wrong.
I am impressed that at the end of that interview she did get into some significant points the dems need to promote: national health insurance, STOP excessive corporate power, etc. But those must be discussed by current Leaders Pelosi and Schumer. Hillary must promote them often and clearly.
SEE HILLARY SAY THIS AT:
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/10/09/hillary-clinton-amanpour-... time line is 13.02
When the Dems had a Candidate that stood for something Bernie Sanders they stacked the deck against him. Hillarys campaign of having a listening tour was ridicules and condescending. At her age and experience she should have known what the issues were. To tell people you have to drive around the country to try to find out what is going on is so tone deaf that it was a bonehead campaign tactic.The Dems are so afraid of telling the country what they really want to do with immigration that they would rather look clueless. The group they are so afraid of, white men,has not voted for them in not cote in mass for them in decades. There is power in numbers and the lack of bringing all the desperate groups together is bewildering about The Dems. There is no way around the fact that cheap immigrant labor hurts the folk lower down on the food most. The dilemma is that the meat packing industry and the agricultural industry would grind to a halt if not for undocumented labor. The farce that Americans will not do the labor the undocumented do is a farce. Americans did this labor before the influx of the undocumented.Fact is why pay Americans a higher wage when you can exploit the undocumented? There is no easy resolution to this problem and the Dems know that and are not willing to pay the political price.
9
There are a lot of different people referenced in this article, some very familiar names, and others mostly unfamiliar to most readers. When that is the case, the writer needs to do a better job of continuing to use identifiers in the latter body of the article to remind readers who these people are, even if it feels awkward. I got tired of looking back to see who people like "Sharry," and "Miller" were.
5
"The first Indian-American woman to be elected to the House, Jayapal, who is now 53, came to the United States at age 16, unaccompanied and on a student visa — not to flee chaos but to attend great universities (Georgetown and Northwestern) and then make a comfortable living (first by executing leveraged buyouts at PaineWebber on Wall Street and then by selling heart defibrillators out of Cincinnati). She left the private sector in 1991 to work for nonprofits, and in 2001, a year after becoming an American citizen, she became an immigration rights organizer..."
If Jayapal is 53 now, when she left the private sector in 1991 she was all of 26. So how long did she actually work in American commerce? Seems like she dabbled for a tiny bit, dipped her toe in briefly.
Yet the NYT makes it sound as though she had an established career as a businesswoman before she departed for the nonprofit sphere & pro immigration activism- or, let's be honest, pro-illegal immigration activism. So as is the case with so many in government & politics today, Jayapal, despite her excellent US education, actually has only very, very limited experience in the US work force & economy. In other words, the world she's spent her adult life in is not what many Americans consider the "real" world. Yet somehow this makes her well qualified to rewrite US immigration policy & to decree that laws established by members of the US Congress before her should not be enforced. Really?
40
White people voted for Trump overwhelmingly including 53% of white women.
Trump has been very clear from day one he is the savior of the white majority.
The rest is for show.
2
You are wrong. The Democrats do not have an immigration problem, according to them. What they have is a vote problem, and one cannot solve the other.Many years ago I took a college course on Hispanic idealogy.They see the Southwest United States as country stolen from Mexico, and they believe "Atilan" the name they refer to as the Southwest is really part of Mexico and the way to take it back is by getting enough Hispanics into political office to simply gain control without ever firing a shot.Snd the Democratic part has played right into their hands by funding Hispanic politicians in the hope of gaining the Hispanic votersas members of the Democratic party.B doing this so openly, they have alienated both white Americans and the Hispanics who came here legally They are on a path of self-destruction.
16
This article makes clear the fundamental problem with the Democratic Party.
Unlike the Republicans, who are generally seen as business-friendly and socially conservative, the Democrats are purely a collection of disparate groups, all of whom want to be seen as victims, but none of whom really agree on anything central to their core beliefs.
The unions and pro-immigration groups are fundamentally opposed to each other.
Poor parents and unionized teachers want diametrically opposite policies.
Middle class workers and entitlement recipients do not agree on raising taxes (unless they foolishly believe that "the rich" will pay for everything).
While Democrats like to paper over these differences at election time, when Democrats gain control over the levers of power, it is impossible to please most of their constituents at any given time.
President Trump has a much easier time of it.
Make the economy boom and his supporters are happy enough.
18
Most immigrants, legal and illegal, come to the US to work. Watch the workers who are painting houses, installing new roofs, washing dishes and busing tables. Pretty much all of them are here illegally.
Start enforcing the laws already on the books that penalize employers. Readers of the NY Times with six figure incomes, Democrat and Republican politicians don't care to solve illegal immigration. Marginalized US citizens who can't earn a decent wage would love it if we would start punishing employers who hire illegals. If they can't get jobs, they will stop coming.
23
Excellent journalism. Thought provoking and detailed, and not polemical. Well done NYT
2
Very interesting in depth article. Thank you.
2
“Trump’s incendiary immigration policies...”
By which you mean US immigration law.
Trump and everyone else is unhappy with our immigration laws. Trump has practically goaded Congress into sending him some kind of bill that improves what everyone dislikes.
The feckless Congress members would rather have the issue to pontificate on than a solution to a problem.
19
I’m guessing the author is referring to the Trump administrations policy of ripping babies and toddlers out their parents’ arms and shipping them off to god knows where without keeping records of any kind.
When Dems and "liberals" and "progressives" keep telling people that only "fascists" want to control borders,
then the people will elect "fascists" to control the borders.
The Dems and liberals and progressives always deny that they say that,
but in fact they almost invariably "resist" and obstruct and drag their feet on any serious measure to control the borders.
The people can see that, plain as day.
And they will vote accordingly.
23
I'm quite liberal on immigration. I support well-regulated legal immigration, both employment and family based. I think that legalizing millions of illegal aliens if they are willing to go back in line and pay back-taxes (and if they are otherwise eager to acquire a legal status), is a good thing. I wish the Dream Act would pass and am sympathetic to DACA.
But mass immigration, supported by much of the left and some on the right, goes way to far in the direction of destroying the nation (any nation). I know Americans who are unsure if they can support even one child, while Third World population is exploding. This is simply a sustainability issue.
Countries that are getting older (like Japan) may be facing some problems due to the demographics but the alternative is a Ponzi scheme - too many young people will need to be sustained when they get older. Every Ponzi scheme ultimately collapses. (That's why poor countries' populations are growing so fast.) Mass immigration is importing this extreme socio-economic conditions and the Ponzi scheme to the few stable countries, practicing sustainability, left in the world.
Controlled, legal immigration, is great but removing enforcement or changing the laws to allow unsustainable population growth and cultural-economic destruction of the West, is not. No economic safety net can protect a nation from ultimate collapse if mass immigration sets in. I say this as a legal immigrant myself.
14
The democrats would be foolish playing to a vote bank of 11 million undocumented immigrants, a lot of whom are catholic and would vote republican even if it is to their detriment when there are 8 times more democratic voters most of whom are moderates.
14
It will be interesting to see how newly enfranchised Americans, who are predominantly Roman Catholic, will alter the R v. Wade dynamic.
I wonder if we will be seeing a rethinking of immigration policy when this sinks in.
Where is my big smilie?
12
ICE had nothing to do with the "family separations" controversy on the border in the late spring and early summer. That was the Border Patrol, ICE does interior enforcement. So why are they calling on ICE to be abolished?
In any event, all that was happening on the border was that illegal border crossers were being arrested, charged with a crime, and jailed until trial. When someone is jailed awaiting trial, they are separated from their family. While I can certainly understand why people would find this disagreeable, why is there no similar outrage when this happens to citizens? Does being an illegal alien entitle an accused criminal of special treatment? If so, that turns the whole principle of citizenship on its head.
Ultimately, what bothers me most about those like Rep. Jayapal is that they take no account of the fact that there are economic and ecological limits to how many people the U.S. can support. We simply can't take in everyone who wants to come here.
58
The Democrats need to steal a play from George W Bush and adopt the following message: "Compassionate Border Enforcement"
4
If we want our country to continue providing health insurance subsidies and to move toward a one-payer system, to provide free pre-school for all children, to subsidize maternity leave, and to again more fully subsidize college tuition, then we cannot allow anyone who manages to cross into our country to remain here. Virtually all of the undocumented immigrants have little education or skills so the jobs they can fill pay low wages. Their taxes do not come close to paying for all of the government services they use. It is costing us so much to support the undocumented that we do not have enough to afford the programs we’d like.
The countries which are closer to providing or which currently do provide one-payer health care and the other social supports have traditionally been very careful to restrict citizenship. When a country restricts citizenship mostly to those who can pay a decent amount of taxes, then it can afford to offer free or less expensive health care, pre-school, college tuition, and maternity leave.
Democrats are going to have to choose between 2 paths. Either we use our taxes to provide free or low cost services to every citizen and legal resident, or we legalize all undocumented immigrants (keeping in mind that the latter will inspire more of the world’s poor to come here illegally in the expectation that, they, too, will eventually receive an amnesty.)
53
@ann, it would also help if Democrats would walk the walk when they are elected and actually end the permanent warfare state but, instead, like clockwork, Obama did a 180 after being elected and continued the Iraq and Afghanistan wars his entire 8 years, ending his presidency with the shameful distinction of longest wartime president in US history. And expanded the neo-con, interevention-first, regime change nonsense in Libya and via gun-running to CIA-funded rebels in Syria. Reauthorized and helped expand the Patriot Act. So in continuing to throw trillions down the toilet bowl of foreign wars, how exactly was he different from Bush-Cheney?
Even supposed "progressives" like Bernie Sanders put the military Keynesianism of Lockheed's budget-busting F-35 fighter jet (and basing it in Vermont's most densely populated area) ahead of the health and home values of his actual constituents.
They always talk the talk but you are not going to pay for universal health care, pre-school, college tuition, maternity leave, etc. when, in spite of all the big talk, they repeatedly walk the military-industrial walk.
1
This has been a problem with the Democratic Party since before the last election. Simply being against Trumpism is not good enough. What are your plans and strategies? How will they help the average American in Idaho, Arizona, Virginia and all the other states? Unfortunately, "I'm not Trump" isn't good enough for many. It didn't work for Hillary and it won't work in 2020.
295
@Richard Price They don't have any decent ones, and if they did most would be exactly what Trump promised. Now disliking his style is fine, supporting his policies and that he actually tries to keep his promises is what I support.
7
@Richard PricePrecisely Mr. Price.
@Richard Price
With a little help from Russia
1
Endless immigration is not sustainable. We have to taper it off and end it at some point. I don't understand why no one thinks past 2, 4 years in the future when at the same time we see that climate change might create radical instability in the next 50.
I truly believe that Democrats are only pro-immigration because they believe it will result in a demographic shift that will advantage liberal causes. Because immigration certainly doesn't help the average blue collar worker. I happen to think they are wrong as educated Asians become the largest immigration group -- some of them are the most conservative people I know.
Besides, if we need people to pick fruit, bring in seasonal guest workers. We don't need to trade American citizenship (worth say $250k) for rote manual labor (worth say $25k).
58
Democrats do have an immigration problem.
Illegal immigration got Trump elected.
And the Democratic response?
Double down on being the party of open borders that won’t say the words “illegal immigrant.”
Google “Keith Ellison no borders t shirt”.
They couldn’t do more harm if they were on Trump’s payroll.
89
I have voted for Democrats pretty much since I could vote. I don't vote by party line, it's always been the case that how I view the world and my leanings have always been closer to Democrats than Republicans.
With that said, the Democrats have lost me as a voter. Their stance on immigration is abysmal. As a legal immigrant to this country, it's appalling that the only issue that Democrats are willing to talk about are illegal immigrants. They hold hostage on passing bills that would make things easier for highly skilled legal immigrants (e.g., those with Master's or PHDs in STEM fields) because illegal immigrants don't get a free pass to citizenship. The party is more concerned with illegals than trying to make our legal immigration system better and this issue alone has made them lose me as a voter.
I don't see anything eye to eye with Republicans so they're ruled out too. Looks like I'm strictly voting for third party candidates or more likely, depending on their stance on issues, writing myself in on the ballots.
61
Look no further than these very pages for willful and repeated conflation between Legal Immigration and Illegal Immigration.
It always tickles my funnybone to see Democrats criticizing Libertarianism as being un-workable, yet clinging desperately to the core Libertarian concept of Open Borders.
46
Illegal immigration is a boon to the ruling class and detrimental to the working class. Illegal immigrants replace working stiffs and in turn are exploited. It's a voluntary slavery system. And thanks to leaders like Jaypal's stance, Americans , who have always been supportive of immigrants, will eventually turn firmly against all immigrants. And I'm afraid when that happens, leaders will do absolutely nothing to protect immigrants. They will simply allow Americans (white and black) to let off steam by venting their anger on immigrants.
23
Support for ICE is support for Trump
3
We don't have an immigrantion problem, unless you count not having enough immigrants. we have a xenophobia and racism problem.
2
@Edward Allen
There are over 20 Million illegal immigrants in this country. To put that in perspective, that is the combined population of 4 or 5 European countries. I would consider that an illegal immigration problem - it takes resources away from legal citizens in need. It is out of control.
31
When will Democrats start learning their lessons? When will they realize that "seizing the moral high ground" cuts them off from the rest of the people? There are so many more problems that affect Americans daily in ways much larger than illegal immigration or the treatment of illegal immigrants, and yet prominent Democrats choose this battle, which is un-winnable.
Yes, it's terrible how illegal immigrants are treated, especially the separation of children and parents, but how does that affect the majority of Americans who are here legally pay taxes, work hard, and follow the rules? Like it or not, there is little or no sympathy for people who break the laws and then have to face consequences. Another unpleasant fact is that you need to win elections to be able to change these laws and policies. Running on a platform that many Americans see as putting illegal immigrants above them is a sure recipe for losing. What these activists are doing is "putting the cart before the horse" and making it easy for Republicans to win.
Dems need to get back to the basics of fighting for Americans, for better jobs, wages, healthcare, and security. How they allowed the Republicans to steal that platform from them is a testimony to how out of touch the Dem leadership has been. If they continue to be led by people more concerned with moral "victories", they'll continue to lose the important ones.
47
Interesting historical account of the issue. One of the reasons Hillary Clinton lost those 3 states that cost her the election was her liberal immigration proposal. Obama carried these states because his immigration policy was much more draconian. Of course the idea of 27 million Latino voters was too enticing to Clinton to pass up. She seems to have thought that she would win 90% of their vote and there would be a high turnout. The hate spewing social media campaign against immigrants by the Trump campaign played well and helped steal the electoral college. With the flawed electoral college system and the winner take all nature of presidential victories Trump took the immigration issue to the bank.
21
If Democrats complete their sorry evolution to a party of open borders, they will lose my support.
There is no way that the party can be pro-environment and pro-labor, while also accepting unlimited immigration. It just doesn’t add up.
75
Well, I'm a Democrat and I know what I'm for: extend an offer of legal resident status and a path to citizenship to every undocumented immigrant who can establish that he/she has been residing here for the past five years or more and has committed no violent crimes while in the U.S. These people have been contributing to the economy and to our tax base while performing jobs at minimal salaries that no one else would accept, and- let's face it- we're not going to catch and expel them all anyway. "Amnesty": who cares? Lots of us have committed felonies of one form or another and have gotten away with them (see Trump, Donald). At the same time, take real control of the borders, spending as much money on patrols, equipment and newly-hired agents as The Donald wants to spend on his useless wall. We need to know who's here and to ensure that the newcomers are those we've invited in. And we need to ensure that the governments of Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala are finally going to do something about the violent criminal factions that are roiling their countries and driving so many of their citizens to sanctuaries here and in Mexico. This, too, will require taxpayer assistance but it's better spent there than on the Great Wall of Donald.
5
@stu freeman No. No. No. Granting any form of amnesty only encourages more illegals to come just as Reagan’s 1986 amnesty did.
22
@Olivia: OK, so spend gobs of tax money to kick them all out and then go and replace them picking crops, cleaning latrines and washing dishes at Mar-a-Lago.
@stu freeman They don't contribute. Our own government admits the vast majority are on welfare. Employers who cannot provide a product without slave labor deserve to go out of business.
2
Less immigration would be better for all, and best for the most recently arrived immigrants who are still seeking their way.
More lawful permanent residents means more employment authorization documents---job competition for native-born workers and existing immigrants.
The current immigration pace, more than one millioin admitted legally each year, is not sustainable. Census Bureau data proves that immigration is the biggest population driver.
30
The internet is a funhouse with mirrors that project a distorted reflection of the real world. Like issues concerning gun violence, the facts anout immigration and refugees are so buried beneath partisan propaganda that it's hard to formulate sensible policy let alone convey that policy clearly to the public. This alone would be a good starting point: try to counter the fear-mongering by white supremacists, modern Know-Nothings, and news outlets that sensationalize "the immigrant menace." And talk way more about the ways in which Trump is targeting LEGAL immigrants already here. Catch him in the lie of "we're only enforcing the law."
Since 2016, a generation of new Democratic candidates have found ways to communicate what were previously thought to be "fringe liberal ideas" to a broader public outside of traditional liberal bastions. Sometimes, grass roots communications by charismatic, genuine candidates can still counter disinformation. There is a way to convey the same with immigration.
2
@citybumpkin Twist the truth all you want. It won’t change the fact that the majority of Americans are against illegal immigration.
9
The article quotes this criticism, re: the Abolish ICE messaging,?“It lets President Trump off the hook. ICE is doing what he told them to do.”
Democrats who are fixated on ICE are wasting their time. They are not running against ICE in 2018 or 2020. They are running Trump and his party. Fixating on the employees instead of the responsibility of the boss is self-defeating and doing Trump and the Republicans a favor.
8
At the same time, we have Republican politicians selling green cards to foreign "investors" who come here to launder their ill-gotten gains. Why isn't anyone up in arms over that? It is repulsive that people can buy their way into a country, and it ought to be illegal.
8
Can you please name some?
5
Didn't the EB-5 program just expire? As with H1-B visas as well, yes, there has been lots of fraud with the EB-5 "invest" your way to citizenship. . .
It's really very simple. In Australia in 2014 they had about 50 boats a year arriving. Then they started turning them back and now they have gone about two years without an arrival. If you make it clear that illegal immigrants will not be admitted they stop coming, because it's expensive to try and these people are not poor as some would make you believe. Anyone who passes through a safe country with respect to their claim no longer has a well founded fear of persecution and has no grounds to claim under the 1951 convention. They should be bounced back to Mexico or following Australia and Israel resettled in safe but poor countries, which undercuts the business model of the people smuggling gangs.
48
Well, we stand for democracy, equality, compassion. At least, I think we do.
Poverty is a bigger issue than immigration. We need to focus on who's already here and struggling and desperate. We need to eliminate poverty, partly by taxing the wealth of the top pirates.
We should be for helping those here become citizens. Most Americans are okay with that. But, the idea that we can have too much immigration is a truism. We need to be okay with limiting immigration, at least until we take better care of those already here. Right? Isn't that true? How can we be 'okay' with such poverty and concentration of wealth, but be upset with lowering immigration. That's really not helping humanity.
Focus of wealth, money. Focus. Bring back the idea of equality and a decent life for all. Talk about good and safe public housing for those that need it. Deal with homelessness and dead-end, low-pay jobs. Make America Love Again. Maybe, when that happens here, we'll be better prepared to invite others over.
8
I am utterly convinced that Trump is in power solely because he has a clear stance on immigration.
Democrats, have a clear strong stance. Stop being vague as a nod to extremists who'd welcome open borders. Most of us do not want that. The vagueries are infuriating, weak-kneed, and is the only major issue that pushes me away from being a strong Democratic supporter.
There is nothing wrong with allowing in legal immigrants AND having strong humane enforcement against illegal one. Nothing.
38
How about a few relevant facts for a change:
"The US Undocumented Population Fell Sharply During the Obama Era"
- Center for Migration Studies
http://cmsny.org/publications/warren-undocumented-2016/
2
Pardon me? You say the "democrats" have a problem about immigration?
NO. The planet has a human problem with immigration because the International Mafia Robber Barons are destroying economies and civilizations around the world.
This is not a democrat-republican issue. It's a human issue. The vast majority of the people on the planet want to simply be able to live decent, progressive lives with relative peace.
The International Mafia Robber Barons and their radical religion brethren want to try to make sure we don't.
WE THE PEOPLE are the only ones who can/will stop them and NOW is the time.
4
Almost missed the passing mention of the 2013 Comprehensive Immigration Reform Bill: "The Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act,” or S. 744.
IMO that right there is the Democrat's playbook to address immigration. It was a bi-partisan bill, hammered out by the Gang of Eight (Rubio, McCain, Graham, Flake were the four R's) and it addressed all aspects of immigration issues. Including money for border wall/fencing, more security, etc.
Republicans intentionally miss characterized the bill's ardent path to citizenship as "amnesty" and their base bought it hook line and sinker. All they had to do was yell "AMNESTY" and the Pavlovian response by their base was immediate rejection of the bill.
Democrats need to dust off S.744, update it, and then educate Americans on how the bill addresses and greatly solves so many of these issues.
It is not a perfect bill. But it is a hell of a lot better than doing the nothing-but-complaining we've engaged in for the last five years.
62
@medianone
It granted amnesty. It is a non-starter.
9
@medianone Not only did it provide amnesty for illegal aliens with only vague future promises of enforcement, it would have doubled legal immigration. It was a terrible bill for everyone but cheap labor interests and illegal immigrants.
3
@medianone Comprehensive meant guest workers, and guest workers means indentured servants. America was built with slaves and indentured workers. No more slavery and no more indentured servitude.
2
The U.S. does need to deal with it's immigration problem. It is not the same issue that is examined in this article though. The United States is squatting on this land by not abiding by it's own treaties and the Constitution. The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution states that these treaties are "the Supreme Law of the Land". Environmental degradation to water, hunting and fishing areas, as well as under-funding healthcare and education for tribal people are breaking these treaties. Before you call anyone else illegal, study some Native law and the history of this country. Tribes didn't cede land for nothing and there are no expiration dates on these treaties. Only once the U.S. has clear title by abiding by it's own laws can it claim some high ground on the immigration issue.
2
@firststar, this is true and very valid. And unfortunately how many politicians since Robert Kennedy have been highlighting Native Americans? That said, how does it help Native American tribes (or the US in meeting its obligations to same under existing treaties) to effectively import millions and millions of illegal aliens via de facto open borders? For example, there have been many violations of the water allotments due to Native American tribes in the Southwest under the Colorado River Compact, in no small part due to the continuing immigration-driven population explosion in water deprived desert climates such as southern California; Arizona; Las Vegas area, etc.
1
It's not that difficult. Any and every political representative should stand for the rule of law. That means enforcing border, immigration laws, while adhering to the system of asylum request system set up to adjudicate these specific cases. And if a person in the U.S. illegally commits a felony, they are deported when caught. It's really not difficult.
39
@Paul Ferreira: why deport them? They'll likely come right back in (or attempt to). If they commit crimes, they should be tried here and, if found guilty, incarcerated here.
3
@stu freeman Yeah, I meant deported after serving time. However, if they're wanted in another country, no need to waste tax payer money on incarceration in the U.S. Extradite them and they can serve time there.
1
I cannot think of a single democrat who has uttered even a single sentence that conveys opposition to illegal immigration.
Keep it up and trump will get a second term
73
@Luciano: You've been listening to Fox and Friends, not to Democrats. Name even a single Democrat who's come out in favor of "open borders."
2
@stu freeman. They say they’re against open borders, but everything else they say and do proves they support and/or are sympathetic to the cause.
2
@Luciano
Aren't you reading the comments here? I'm not seeing ANY support from open borders among Democrats.
And the lack of the Democrats standing for something is different in this situation how? The Democrats have a lot of things they don't want and nothing that they do.
24
@Stefan: Just like the Republicans during the Obama years. There's very little we can do while in the minority and frozen out by The Donald and his congressional lackeys.
I’ve commented here before on this and I’m going to keep doing it until some of you get it.
Do some homework and you’ll find that the mess and resulting mass exodus in Central America is the end product of failed U.S. policies in the region. So how about we elect leaders that stop creating these issues behind our backs, accept some accountability and responsibility? And more importantly stop victimizing people who have nowhere else to turn.
9
And let's not forget the consequences of the Iraq war.
2
A generation ago. Time enough to straighten out the mess
7
@Bryan. Please get over the 80’s as hard as it may be. People in Central America can move to another part of their country or a Latin American country that is close to them, not the US. They come here for our generous government benefits.
9
If you are found or caught within our country illegally, you should NEVER be allowed to come back nor receive any consideration for citizenship or green cards, ever again. This is what they do in Australia and it is very effective. If you break our basic laws of entry from the get go, you failed. Never allowed to re-enter either, for ANY reason. Children also don't get a free pass.
89
Do you mean if an infant or young child is brought here illegally and deported with a parent, that person would never be able
to apply to enter the US again? Wow. Talk about blaming the innocent.
2
@Kathy
No one is entitled entry into someone else's home, no matter their age.
3
Marketing 101 If you don't define your brand your competitor will.
As long as Democrats let Republicans brand them as the party of "Open borders, no limits on immigration and anything less is racist" the will LOSE. Somewhere between no immigration or at least only a few white people and come one, come all, no limits, there has to be some space for a reasonable middle ground. A clear positive position for Democrats to take. It needs to have several points.
1 What to do with illegals already here. Allow DACA kids to stay. Deportations but starting with the most egregious cases.
2 How to secure the Border. If not Trumps Wall then what? Ask the Border Patrol what would work? What would help them.
3 How many people a year can the US assimilate? How many resident aliens? How many citizens? Set a number.
4 Who should those people be. High educated high earners? Low wage workers. Family of those already here?
Lay out a clear reasonable middle ground and voters will go for it But it has to be addressed.
18
"It's going to be important for Democrats and immigration-rights activists to recognize that for the majority of the American people, borders mean something." - Barack Obama, Rolling Stone interview, November 9, 2016
61
@Jeremy Beck
Wise words from a very wise man, but still they don't listen. They are tone deaf.
9
@Jeremy Beck
Wise words from a very wise man. I fear this will fall on deaf ears by the Dems.
5
Perhaps one way to start: ask Democrats if there is any person who is an illegal immigrant whom they believe ought to be deported.
22
This is the fault of the left as much as the right. Why? Because Bernie Sanders successfully convinced liberals Hillary Clinton was not liberal enough or no different than Trump. An absurdity that we are all paying for now.
All eligible liberal voters need to man up and vote next time damn it.
6
Let's face it, the Democrats are a party of immumerates. With the population of the earth at well over 7 billion, having double within the last 40 years, it is becoming more important by the day that immigration policy should be a policy of restricting the number newcomers. That would include capping the number of annual asylum claims allowed by the US. The country has to ask itself, do we need more people? With well over 300 million people in the US, it is very strange to hear the argument that we require more people in the country. If you can't do it with 300+M people, adding more is not going to help. Democrats, get the message: The country doesn't need more people. Focus your efforts on improving the lives of our citizens and let other countries in the world do the same for their own people.
73
@Joe C Things are not as simple as you would like them to be. We are connected to all the world. Whether you want to or not, you cannot simply close the borders - no wall is going to be high enough (or deep enough or thick enough) to shield us from the traumas of the world.
Clearly, we need a more rational policy. Starting with asylum is the wrong place to start - but yes, we need limits. Working with other countries to help keep their people there (or at least refraining from our long-standing practice of destabilizing other country's governments for our own pleasure and then pretending we have no responsibility for the resulting social disarray) would also be a good idea. Recognizing that, despite our relatively small population, we remain responsible for a vast proportion of the wall of damage that is encroaching, and doing our best to reduce that; developing science-based policies for producing food, reducing births, and reducing our reliance on energy; and more "liberal" policies will protect us far better than turning our backs on the world.
3
@Joe C Uh, not all people are the same. The share of WORKING AGE people in overall population is declining while elderly is increasing. So, yeah, immigration.
1
we are the ones who want universal health Care and increased education spending. we are the ones looking out for our citizens and not the republicans
2
Abolish ICE is ridiculous and I wish the
Dems would give up that idea and focus on more constructive policies, eg working hard to deal positively with DACA.
Those advocating to get rid of ICE mainly betray their lack of knowledge of the mission and responsibilities of that agency, most of whose activities will still need to be done, one way or another.
Let’s be for positive change for immigrant children, sensible rules for migrant farm workers, better tracking of folks here on visitor visas, and so on!!
18
Democrats stand for Humans. Republicans stand for greed; power and hate. Easy. Vote Republican for power; greed and hate. Vote Democrat for human beings. Ray Sipe
2
@Ray Sipe
Please don't fool yourself into thinking that the repubs are only after wealth and power. Nancy Pelosi is worth $26 Million, many dems top the list of millionaires currently in both houses. Both are equally unappetizing but the Dems have way more to lose. This topic will be at the forefront.
11
Lost in this discussion is that there is a legal process, under international and U. S. Law, by which undocumented people are allowed to present themselves at our borders and request asylum.
This legal process is being denied to refugees at our borders by ICE officials, resulting in parents and caregivers seeking asylum being sent to prison and children as young as two facing court proceedings they cannot understand, without legal representation.
Think hard about what that looks like.
This is no longer a question of immigration, this is about the illegal denial of human rights at our borders by an agency of our country.
The implications of this fact destroys everything we once claimed our country represented.
5
@CLC
These parents did not come in the legal way but from other places other then a port of entry. Blame the parents; not the US govt.
Second violence such as they are fleeing is not a reason to grant asylum. We got people in the US who are fleeing the same and you dont see them going to Canada / Mexico / etc and asking for asylum.
Third; if you went to prison; presuming you have kids; do you expect them to come with you? of course not.
Fourth immigration is a civil matter and no one is entitled to a free attorney in it.
NO amnesty. NO work permits NO nothing but deportation.
11
@CLC Merely calling yourself a refugee does not make you one. Every single Honduran or other Central American is not a refugee because they said so.
7
Just by reading these comments it is obvious that Trump has succeeded in greatly diving us on this. I am a democrat, former republican.
This nation has always been pro-immigrant and pro-immigration. We are the nation of immigrants. Even so, we have never been pro-illegal immigration. You want to blame someone? Then blame the employers who hire the illegal immigrants, blame the system that allows them to receive free food and medical care. Who would not want to come here? Of course, the employers would never be blamed instead blame the people escaping their terrible situations and coming to the country where they will be hired and given everything free.
The hate that Trump has stirred will not soon be gone. The man that Christians revere so much, is more like a devil.
6
Pro immigration is fine; illegal isn't fine
8
@NYC Dweller I agree! No one ever said that illegal is fine, that is what Trump wants everyone to believe that democrats say it is fine. It never is.
If the Democratic party today is not a party of compassion and empathy for its own citizens and for all people , it is nothing. The GOP has made a deal with themselves and with the privileged class in this country which covertly and sometimes quite overtly rules out the possibility of any kind of empathy or compassion toward its own citizens. This is headed of course by Donald Trump who bears all of the characteristics of a narcissist and a sociopath, and is clearly not a Republican but is actually a neo -fascist .
The Democratic party has to be, in no uncertain terms the party that cares about all people, no exceptions.
1
@RD Compassion and empathy is not about open borders.
7
"If you have become scared of immigration, you have become scared of being American." Is what I would like to say to everyone, who considers voting republican, and who I would like to tlak to in person. And I would like to ask, everyone, in person: "What is so frightening about your future, that you think about handing a country the world envies, to authoritarianism wrapped in misogyny?"
4
@Olaf Langmack
America welcomes at least a million immigrants each year - including this year. Illegal immigration and human trafficking are crimes in America. Illegal immigration is not the same thing as immigration and attempting to disguise this fact does not add to your credibility on this issue.
31
@Olaf Langmack. Olaf, we are talking about illegal immigration which is different from legal immigration.
16
@Maureen
Illegal immigration is illegal. I would find it pointless to argue for something illegal. Thank you for pointing that out.
The end result of efforts of Democrats and immigration advocates is indeed open borders. In their mind, there seems to be no constraints on who should be allowed to come into our country, and they will advocate for everyone that comes across the border to stay. We allow a MILLION legal immigrants every year! How many should be allow? Two million? Ten million? Fifty million? I reject the idea that people need to travel through multiple countries or half-way around the world to find asylum. They do that for economic gain, nothing more. We are the shining city on the hill that everyone wants to go to. And they'll use every angle they can to make that happen. I would like to hear good reasons for allowing illegal immigration. We don't need them to fund our retirement. We don't need them so we can have more stuff. We don't need them to maintain our population. We don't need them to pick our vegetables or roof our houses or wait our tables. And they don't need to come here to find safety or security. So what is the case to allow this illegal immigration?
51
Immigration is a losing issue. May work in a few local elections but Dems need to back away from it nationally. Folks are worried about their jobs, paying bills and healthcare. 174 women in Seattle are just not a priority. Sad but true.
29
Republican and Democratic politicians keep this issue alive by advancing non-solutions, in order to try to poach voters from the other side. It is a divisive scam.
The real solution to our immigration problem is two-pronged.
First, employers that hire illegal immigrants (and I use that phrase because that is the point of hiring them) must be arrested, prosecuted and punished for doing so. That is how you lower demand for illegal immigrants, which would reduce the need for border security. (Legalizing drugs, except for minors would also help.)
Next, fix the legal immigration system so that people could legally come here and work without waiting for decades. A broken immigration system creates illegal immigrants.
Employers hire illegal immigrants specifically because their legal status means they have no enforceable rights. That is why they are a useful weapon to use against American citizen employees. "If you ask for a raise or benefits, I will replace you with an illegal."
The more illegal you make them, the more profitable they are to hire.
Legal immigrants have the same pay and benefits making them useless as a threat.
The way for workers to have better pay and benefits is to unite and work together. Employers do that with various trade associations, PACS, and business groups, while they support politicians that divide us to make labor cheap.
Letting the rich get away with manipulating the labor market by appealing to your racism makes you a sucker.
UNITE
8
@McGloin It is not racist to have and enforce immigration laws. It should not be easy to move here, especially if you don't speak English, have job skills or an education. The world is not owed their alleged right to become Americans.
7
It's obvious what Democrats stand for on immigration: unlimited migration for any reason.
That's what handed the House, Senate and White House to Republicans. The Democratic Party lost the heartland. While the union leadership may still back Democrats, because of inertia and friendship, the rank and file understand clearly that their union plants will be closed and vacant if employers are able to replace them in another plant with undocumented workers who are less likely to organize, protest and will work for whatever wages are offered.
42
@Jim Sure seems to be the de facto truth. Speaking as a liberal Democrat, we can't let the brand be driven by a relatively few politicians, nor more than we should be blinded by the cruel excesses of an Administration that, frankly, does not care much about immigration except as a vehicle they can use to make POC suffer.
3
More judges so processing takes less than 30 days, more ports of entry with staffing so that no one waits in line more than a day, clearly delineated paths to legal citizenship, allow adults traveling with a child to represent them on court (no toddlers representing themselves in court). Easy access to seasonal work visas for seasonal workers to limit their need to cross back and forth illegally. Then with all these in place it is reasonable to maintain a more robust exportation policy. This allows more immediate processing and consequences which is the only way any deterrent works while also ensuring a more humane process.
6
The problem is that most immigrants who want to come here or are here don't have enough money to buy the attention of the right people in the administration, this one or any other one. We have, and probably still are, selling green cards to rich foreigners who are willing to invest millions in return for the privilege of jumping the line for permanent residency in America. Are these foreigners as heavily vetted as the average foreigner who wants to move here and eventually become a citizen?
The current paranoia over immigrants is not justified in any sense of the word. Most of them are more law abiding than native born Americans. They start more businesses than we do. They take more chances to succeed than we do partly because of their outsider status. In other words, immigrants enrich our country.
Enforce the laws on illegal immigration. Building a wall is a waste of good money. Start by penalizing the businesses that bring in illegal immigrants or that hire them from others. And improve the national system for checking the status of new hires. That will solve a lot of the illegal immigration problem. It won't stop people from seeking asylum but seeking asylum is a separate activity and not illegal no matter how the GOP or Trump and his minions spin it.
2
@hen3ry. It sounds like you’re one of those people who think illegal immigrants are better than Americans. Hmm... I think not. I have high regard for my fellow American citizens.
4
What do Democrats stand for on immigration? Do any of them stand for anything? You won't find out here. That's an awfully long article not to tell us even once what Congresswoman Jayapal's proposed "new agency to replace ICE" would actually do so that we might weigh, apart from the battle of slogans, whether any such idea has substantive merit or not. This is just more empty reporting of the politics of shiny objects in the age of Trump. This is an excellent example of how the media is complicit in a reality TV presidency and the crisis of democracy in which we find ourselves, which can only be resolved by a more dispassionately informed electorate, something hardly improved by bated-breath reporting, no matter how extended, on the outfits of the cheerleaders on each team's sidelines.
44
Well said thank you.
1
Random thoughts:
- "Abolish ICE" is a silliness that does not merit debate. The function of ICE will be fulfilled in any event. The same functions were fulfilled with less controversy in earlier administrations, which took a more selective approach to deportation of the undocumented who actually posed some sort of societal threat.
- Illegal, -economic- immigration will persist until sane policies are put in place: 1) seasonal emigration of workers in various industries, with some sort of return privilege; 2) rationalization of the H-1 system to remove abuses (there is no shortage of accountants, models or resort chefs - just ones that will work for lower wages); 3) policing of -employers- who violate immigration law, and giving out more than a traffic citation when violations are found.
- Do the easy things first! DACA has wide support among our citizens, blue, purple, red and yellow polka-dotted. Just do it, for heaven's sake!
- GOP efforts in immigration reform are laughable: for openers, give us a wall and concentration camps, and then maybe we will think about some of these other provisions. As if.
10
It is entirely natural for Ms. Jayapal to represent the interests of people like herself over those of people unlike her. Why she expects the rest of us to put her interests before our own is something she will need to explain more clearly.
69
Simply begin by enforcing the laws already on the books. There's your answer every time the question is asked. Democrats need to get wise with this issue or we'll get another 4 years of Trump. Who needs that?
30
Let's be clear: the issue is not "immigration," the issue is "illegal immigration." Most Americans, probably including most Reps, support legal immigration. Most Americans, probably including most Dems, are against illegal immigration. The fact that we have more than 22 million illegal immigrants in the US does not sit well with Americans who believe in law and order. Thanks to "abolish ICE" and the government shutdown by Pelosi for illegal immigratnts, Dems are now rightly perceived as the party of Open Borders. Republicans know that Americans do not support Open Borders, and that's why they as a party love the Dems pushing for amnesty. I'm a progressive liberal, and I'm against Open Borders. Let's focus on jobs for Americans and fair taxation, and watch Dems win; keep pushing "abolish ICE" and Dems will again snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
112
@Unconventional Liberal Most democrats support the status quo which is akin to the Cuban "dry foot" policy, so it is a joke to say they are "against illegal immigration"
Many "progressives" seethe with hatred for our government and system and yet wield disproportionate power over the democratic party.
2
Democrats should stand for the repeal of birthright citizenship.
The US and Canada are alone among first world countries in recognizing jus soli. The US has 31.95 people per square kilometer as compared to 3.45 for Canada.
The lure of birthright citizenship has led to maternity tourism and to pregnant women trying to enter illegally in order to have their babies on US soil, providing an "anchor" for a larger family unit.
Birthright citizenship is a hangover from when the United States needed to increase its population and had what seemed like limitless land in which to settle. That is no longer the case.
Repeal is popular across political parties and poses no threat to the workforce. It is low hanging fruit. Democrats should claim it before the GOP does.
62
@Shar You may have a point and a very good one at that. But I fear that the Dems will continue to polarize American citizens yet again. They can't say they haven't been warned. Maybe some of those very Democratic senators read the Times and the comments and takes this to heart. Someone with a backbone. They would get many voters siding with them again and dispel the myth that all Dems are for open borders. It's a thought.
12
@Shar
Birthright citizenship is a carry-over from the effort to eradicate slavery. It's an extension of one of the Civil War amendments to the Constitution.
5
"One of the great ironies of Trump’s attacks on immigrants and people of color is that the public increasingly sees immigration as a good thing."
This is wishful thinking. Many people are disgusted by Trump's actions on many fronts. This does not mean that they support immigration.
I read two liberal newspapers, the NYT and WP. Every time there is an article like this one, most people voice their opinion against immigration of any kind, not just illegal immigration.
Immigration is not a hot button issue for me, (except for birth tourism, which I am completely opposed to -->
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/birth-tourism-brings-russian-baby-b...
but I am convinced that the Democratic party is missing the boat with their position on immigration, and helping cement the absolute GOP majority.
51
I'm a lifelong Democrat and the child of two (legal) immigrants. I don't understand why we can't have a Democratic Party that simply says, "We are a nation of laws, and we will enforce immigration law as we do all others. Period."
Dems just don't get it. This year alone, they shut down the government over 800,000 dreamers and Nancy Pelosi brought the House to a halt with an 8 hour speech about...again, the dreamers. There are 330 million people in this country! I'd like to know why NP doesn't seem as excited about sky-high drug prices, the opioid epidemic, or stranglehold that Wall Street corporations have on this country? The Dems' fixation on the plight of illegal immigrants is killing us. It gives the impression that the party cares more about people who break the law than about issues that matter to ordinary Americans. As long as this is the case, we can look forward to more years of Trump and GOP rule.
165
Why did they fight over the dreamers and not opioids and other pressing matters? Because its all about context. When the battle before you is a border wall, you fight about immigration. Its what is in the news and what people are paying attention to including the being generated from the prior “muslim bans”. You fight the battle you have not the one you want. So when Trump talks about getting money for the border wall its hard to parlay a middle-ground deal just by saying we should deal with opioids when you have zero control of the debate.
2
“You fight the battle you have, not the one you want”.
Sorry, that is not leadership. When Democrats are in power, Republicans seem to have no problem setting the agenda (see the Tea Party, etc). Democrats on the other hand are always reacting.
5
Jayapal is a great representative--for immigrants. What about Americans? Immigration is supposed to serve the broad national interest. That is the question that must be asked and never seems to be. Does shutting down immigration enforcement improve America? Trump is correct that you don't have a nation if you don't have borders.
Further, you can't be an environmentalist if you don't support limitations on immigration. The US population grows 30 million each decade because of immigration. We would have stabilized our national population but for the huge waves of people that continue to pour in.
Americans are sick of out of control immigration--it handed the election to Trump. And no, I didn't vote for him. I'm a liberal democrat who happens to believe in limits--including immigration limits.
94
Someone remind the Dems that most Americans have immigration indigestion. The remedy is to prevent illegal immigrants from flooding into our country. Once they're here, they're here to stay. About as temporary as a tattoo. We can't allow them to stay or even enter. It has to stop. I don't see the Democrats wanting to prevent the flow yet instead aid and assist them. Hmm, do not they see this as a problem? Keep doing what they're doing and we've easily got 4 more years of Trump.
40
@MS Don't see the repubs doing anything either as their rich business owners need them to work for them at rock bottom wages. The Dems want votes the repubs want slave labor hence the quagmire and the constant state of nothing being done on this subject.
4
This is a difficult issue. We cannot stop immigration and yet illegal immigration creates a downward spiral of urban areas. Take San Francisco, it has ridiculous numbers of homeless people, a lot of Americans mixed with destitute immigrants. They come even with our present government's unfriendly policies, they come even with the risk that their children will be separated from them, they come because even a homeless life is better for them than life at home. This is all about them. What do we as Americans get out of it? I think the solution is not to support illegal immigration but create visas that support seasonal migration as farm labor or other low wage employments. Offer better legal incentives for companies employing such people. Strike down on illegal employers. And above all don't separate parents from their children, send them back together please. Jayapal came here legally and is an admirable part of this nation, let her not frivolously cause the democrats to lose their focus by attacking ICE or illegal immigration this mid term election. As a democrat, I for one would be very unhappy with their thoughtless, short sighted thinking. This is not about being racist, non inclusive or fearful of losing employment, it is that democrats need to come up with a better alternative than flooding urban centers with desperate immigrants. I can tell you there are many, I can change a maid a week without a problem.
13
@Meena Actually I would like to know more about Jayapal immigration path. She came, according to the article, at 16 on a student visa? That is weird in an of itself. A visa to attend high school here? Was she alone or with her parents? After she attended college and then worked in finance, on what kind of visa? How did she convert her student visa. Later she seems to have lost or quit that job for a traveling sales job. Somewhere in there she must have attained Green Card status then in 2001, citizenship after which she immediately became an immigration activist. Then a politician.
7
Hillary Clinton had an interview this week on CNN. She rambled against Trump and many things. But mainly an anti-Trump speech.
How to get out of the mess, she was asked. Vote she said. She said all issues were on the ballot. ??? She complained about the circus in DC. "There is much to be concerned about" she said.
She gave no policy points she and her party would support. She offered nothing. No philosophy of the democratic party. Health care problem? The USA has been shown in recent studies to be one of the most inefficient in the world. Other countries have far better health outcomes. What about the huge disparity in wealth in the country; destroying us. Not one word from Hillary. She rambled on about Kavanaugh. No specifics on anything. President has demeaned woman, she said. True. Lots of talk about civility and "listening to each other."" Only if the dems win the House will civility return." "They lust only for power. We must win elections and get back to regular order." WOW.
She offered nothing. No talk about the giant tax cut for the wealthy this past year. What does her party offer that they will fight for? She sounds much like Nancy Pelosi. She said nothing and offered nothing. Step aside, please Ms. Clinton.
37
mexico was all about open borders in the texas region as it related to u.s. citizens in the 1830's. then they couldn't stop it. how'd that work out for mexico?
6
As a life-long progressive, I’m mystified as to how and when unrestricted immigration became an essential part of the liberal canon. Unrestricted immigration is completely undermining liberal democracy as we know it - the liberal democracy we have worked so hard to create. And the elites – whether it’s the 1% or the 9.9% - refuse to address the problem and only criticize those who raise the issues – calling them racists, bigots and xenophobes. I, too, like new Syrian restaurants, but far more people eat at Olive Garden (if they can afford to eat out at all). Culture matters, and when (now) indigenous people raise the issue, they’re dismissed because they don’t recognize the economic benefits – and then in the next article those same ignorant peasants are criticized for being shallow and caring only about material possessions and worldly goods (or for wanting them). From Sweden to Italy and all of Europe in between, in the US and now increasingly Canada, liberal governments are being undermined by toxic political parties because those elite politicians are the only ones willing to address it. What’s to stop 300 million Chinese from immigrating and electing Xi our President for Life? And China, by the way, doesn’t let people immigrate into their country. What’s the point of a military if not to protect our borders and our sovereignty?
85
Which candidate supports unrestricted immigration? As a lifelong liberal, I’d hope you have a better grasp of the facts. There’s no such one.
What “abolish ICE” means is returning immigration enforcement to an immigration bureaucracy tasked with assessing cases based on our laws. It means rejecting the paranoid reaction to 9/11 that placed border security under homeland security, as though the terrorists had driven the planes over the Texas border in dark of night.
ICE is brutal and secretive. It doesn’t publish policies or statistics. It doesn’t allow journalists into its detention centers. What kind of country do we live in, that enforces our laws without public oversight?
Immigration is down. Republicans claim it’s up, because to them down is always up, when convenient. They claim no enforcement is the only alternative to militaristic, extra-legal, inhumane, anti-American enforcement. In that, as in so much else, they are wrong, either stupidly wrong, or cynically wrong.
We did and can enforce border security transparently, while obeying our own laws. We can, and we should. It’s that simple, really.
@James K. Lowden OK James, who can be deported? Do we have a choice about who is allowed to immigrate?
Here is an excellent primer on the Democratic Party’s pivot, which I found both informative and telling:
https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/528678/
1
Wake up democratic party leaders and read these comments in the NYT. You are out of sync with your supporters on immigration.
The great majority of liberals don't believe that illegal immigration is acceptable and recoil at the idea that foreign mothers can travel here for a few weeks and pop out a baby with US citizenship.
There's nothing wrong with promoting some limits on immigration - every other country on the planet does it. Until democrats come to grips with this, they'll give divisive extremists like DJT an opening and will continue to lose elections (and I'm saying this as a lifelong democratic voter).
95
Get a grip. The men and unaccompanied minors who arrive never pop out a baby a few weeks later. Are you listening to yourself?
We have limits on immigration. Republicans want you to believe we either incarcerate everyone who arrives, or shut down border patrol and let come who may. That’s nonsense.
What we don’t need to do is lie. We don’t need to lie to those who come, telling them they have no right. We don’t need to deceive parents into signing deportation papers telling them their children will be returned to them if they do. We don’t need to create tent cities to house them, and with it the illusion that there is a crisis.
It’s a big country. We can deal with a few thousand immigrants a month, just as we deal with millions of visitors each day. We could even address the root problems in Honduras et al. We could do something positive instead of pretending we’re under siege.
But, of course, that would require admitting the problems manageable, if not solvable, the way grownups do.
1
@James K. Lowden I believe we have a backlog of over 300,000 asylum seekers and 8000 new applicants a month in 2018.
1
@PD "travel here for a few weeks and pop out a baby with US citizenship."
There have been reports of women in labor traveling across the border to Brownsville, TX to birthing houses.
Immigration is something that America wants to reign in. The Democratic Party lost to the worst Republican candidate, Trump, solely on this decisive policy in the 2016 election.
Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders were for open borders and they both lost because of that.
No matter how bad Trump is going into the next presidential election cycle, if Democrats continue to run on the platform of open borders, Trump or any other Republican for that matter, will get re-elected.
37
Neither Clinton nor Sanders called for open borders. Clinton said those words, but she meant trade, not people. Sanders never said them, and never suggested any such thing.
The fact that you accept that Republican slander as fact says volumes about why Trump won.
@James K. Lowden Brace yourself, James, he will be re-elected.
1
If I could summarize the Democrats' immigration problem in a single person, it would be Keith Ellison.
Congressman from Minnesota. Deputy chair of the DNC. Running for the state's attorney general.
And marching around in a tee shirt a few months ago that said--in Spanish--"I don't believe in borders."
58
Donald Trump won because of immigration. It’s that simple.
Democrats’ immigration policy has brought:
• An increasingly conservative Supreme Court
• Gutting of Obamacare
• Exit from the Paris Climate Accord
• A massive tax cut package
• And so much more
My questions are simple.
1. Was it worth it?
2. Will it continue?
95
@John, Yet it's still all about DACA for the Dems. sigh
6
What Democratic immigration policy?
Bush campaigned on immigration reform. Didn’t get it from 3 Republican congresses.
Obama called for immigration reform. For 6 years of his 8, Republicans controlled congress.
For 13 of the last 17 years, Republicans have controlled one or both branches of government. They have never proposed any workable solution, let alone enacted any policy. They can’t even pass the Dream Act, which has majority support in congress and 80% public approval.
Republican politicians LIKE the immigration policy we have. It gets them elected, and solves nothing, and gets them elected again. Question is. will the electorate ever wise up?
2
A vote to abolish ICE is, unwittingly, a vote against the Democratic Party... You’re shooting yourself in the foot.
38
Newsflash, New York Times. If the Democrats go the way of Ms. Jayapal, they will be handing the country to Trump. The majority of Americans want immigration reform, yes, but to them this means less illegal immigration, & the admittance of immigrants who are either truly worthy of asylum or who fulfill an economic need. We need an immigration system more like Canada's or Australia's. Our environment, our economy & our standard of living can't support the unfettered population growth of the last few decades, & legalizing millions of illegal immigrants is unfair to those waiting patiently in line for legal status.
47
Except one thing: there is no unfettered immigration growth. Check the facts. Immigration isn’t growing, and illegal immigration is down.
So we already have what we want. Next?
@James K. Lowden
Ok, then 0 illegal immigration & careful control of legal immigration. Next?
"..in the 2016 presidential election, when Hillary Clinton’s welcoming stance toward undocumented immigrants failed to generate any increase in Hispanic turnout, even against an opponent who began his campaign with a speech characterizing Mexican immigrants as rapists and drug dealers."
Literally right in front of Democrats face. America is not going to vote for immigrants. 2016, Democrats are all for immigration (both legally and illegally weirdly), and they got absolutely smoked across the board. Their strategy now? To abolish ICE.
Democrats, focus on the issues that actually impact the majority of your voters. Most Americans might find a zero-tolerance policy of separating children abhorrent, but a good number also find it totally acceptable or even avidly support it as necessary, and the Democratic party has consistently ignored those people lately.
20
Illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants.
They are breaking the law, i.e. their immigration is illegal. Against the law. They aren't supposed to be here. They are in contempt of the law. Why is that so hard for Democrats or The NY Times to say?
Undocumented suggests they forgot to pick up their visa.
The Democrats try to spin this as a race thing and there is no doubt that it is for some. But for most people, including me, is that they are breaking the LAW. They are line cutters and showing contempt not just for the law but for those who are here legally.
Finally, this is a democracy. Democracies fail with unlimited immigration. Why would I support the dilution of my vote with a bunch of new voters who won't support what I support?
49
Have all the immigrant children who were kidnapped from their parents at the border been returned to their parents? How many of these children have to sold to the sex trade? Who has any answers to these questions? Since this was Trump's idea, why hasn't he been charged with kidnapping? Why is he allowed to get away with so many unlawful crimes?
2
"Democratic voters do not reward theirs for being forthrightly pro-immigrant."
That is because immigration control is a bipartisan issue. Only the extreme "progressives" support open borders.
16
I have a neighbor who said illegal immigrants should be shot and buried in mass with a bulldozer. Hyperbole. But suggesting that Democrats have a problem with immigration, that being against something isn't enough in this time of fascist revival, makes one think you have no idea how pernicious the problem is or how long it's been around just beneath the surface. Thankfully there are people brave enough to stand up and speak out against this day.. Will that be enough? One can hope.
No one is advocating for open borders, in this article or anywhere else. Clearly most of these comments were written without reading the article. All of you claiming to be liberals or democrats sound like disinformation bots. We are not falling for that trick again.
2
@Blue State Buddha
Except a lot of people effectively are though they don't use the term because it is political suicide. They oppose all deportations except for maybe murderers and rapists effectively giving asylum to everyone that crosses the border even those that are immediately apprehended. But they are against "open borders"...
12
@Blue State Buddha If you take the arguments of Democrats and immigration advocates to their logical conclusion, the end result is indeed open borders, or close to it. Just because you don't explicitly state that doesn't mean that I can't read between the lines.
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@Blue State Buddha If you are opposed to better border security and favor the abolition of ICE, you are in effect advocating open borders, because there will be no mechanism for restricting illegal immigration or deporting illegal immigrants. And yes, I don't know what it's like in Chicago, but in Seattle many on the Left support open borders both directly and indirectly.
6
The Democrats still cannot discern the difference between a US citizen and an “undocumented” aka illegal foreign national....which is why I won’t be voting my party affiliation anytime soon.
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@Shenoa: Disinformation straight from Fox News. You are not a Democrat and have never been. Most Democrats are in favor of immigration reform, and reforming, not abolishing, ICE. Open borders are only advocated by a fringe group that probably doesn’t even vote Democrat. Immigration law was more strongly enforced under Obama than under Bush.
@Anna It's not your job to police who is and is not a Democrat depending on whether or not they agree with you. We did that in 2016 and look where it got us.
1
@Talbot: Shenoa has a long history of comments claiming she's a Democrat and then rehashing Fox News talking points and bashing "the Democrats". If she is, the last thing Democrats need is a circular firing squad. But I think she or he is just trolling.
Contrary to what is stated here, most Republicans are not anti immigrant.. they want immigration laws enforced. Democrats don't.
Blurring legal and illegal immigration does allow criminals,rapist and murderous gangs into our society. Encouraging illegal immigration enriches human smugglers/gangs , corrupt Mexican officials.
Democrats are not motivated by sympathy but raw political power above all..they want a permanent power base of people needing services ie voters... Hugo Chavez did the same in Venezuela to attain permanent leftist power.. destroying a wealthy nation.
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On what do you base your theory of what Democrats want? What has anyone ever done to convince you Democrats don’t want our immigration laws enforced?
Because the charge is arrant nonsense.
Obama formulated a policy that let those here who’d broken no other law — not murderers, rapists, gang members, and sex traffickers — to go to school, work, and join the army. He did that in part for practical reasons: there was not enough money and manpower to deport them. Why not? Because the Republican congress failed to appropriate such money. Why? Because that would be a lot of money, for one thing, hundreds of billions. Because the actuality of mass deportation would be ugly and unpopular, for two. And because the continued unsolved immigration problem gives them a topic to run on without any intention of actually “fixing” it.
Obama also instituted a pilot program to assign case workers to every asylum applicant. It achieved 99% compliance at 1/3 the cost of incarceration. The very opposite of not enforcing the law.
Obama also deported more people every year than Bush did. So who’s not enforcing the law?
What we don’t need is tent cities, automatic detention, and harsh, illegal treatment of people who’ve broken no law. (It’s not illegal to come without a visa seeking asylum.)
Immigrants aren’t a threat. We should have the confidence to say so, and act accordingly.
@Lane Both sides are horrible when it comes to immigration. Repubs only want laws enforced at the level of individual immigrants.....not their employers, who are major drivers of illegal immigration. Have you ever heard of a company or business being prosecuted for hiring illegal immigrants or abusing HB-1 visa laws? Extends across all sectors -- from farming to restaurants to tech. Yes, we do need workers in some of these fields but let's institute sensible immigration laws -- like rational guest worker programs -- that don't hurt Americans.
1
We, the Amerian People, and taxpayers do not need to pay for something that in reality is not needed. The cost to construct 722 miles of barriers in those priority locations is estimated at $18 billion. That is billion, 18 billion!!! When so much is needed to make America better! It is not a vainglory for Trump wall!
Democrats believe in…
…equal opportunity for all citizens.
…rewarding, honest, hard work with a living wage.
...a tax system that is fair.
…family values that are more than a political slogan.
…quality education that gives all citizens the opportunity to reach their potential.
…freedom from government interference in private lives and personal decisions.
…the benefits of individual strengths in America's diverse population.
…security in homes and safety in public.
...that criminals should face swift and certain punishment.
…the separation of Church and State to preserve the freedom to pursue religious or non-religious beliefs.
…a strong United States - morally, economically, and militarily.
…supporting laws that protect our environment, including commonsense reforms that guarantees cleaner and safer air and water.
4
@Shenonymous To make America better we need to stop illegal immigration.
31
Why? Seriously.
Every year, 50,000 Americans die of untreated treatable illness, for lack of adequate insurance. Every year, 45,000 Americans die in car crashes. A similar number die from guns. Millions suffer from health problems brought on by unhealthy diet subsidized by agricultural policy and omnipresent pollutants.
I could go on. Copyright law, money in politics, corporate power, expensive broadband, income inequality. Wage stagnation and vote suppression. It’s a long list of real problems.
Meanwhile, illegal immigration. Would ANY illegal immigration be OK, just one person, say, if one of those real problems were made better (if not fixed)? Would two, or 10,000?
Illegal immigration is one issue. I fail to see how it’s the only issue, or even the most important one. There’s a lot to do. Gnashing our teeth over people who aren’t harming anyone seems to me at best nonproductive.
@James K. Lowden The cost of illegal-immigration and the burden on our communities hurts everyone including legal immigrants. Now, about crime. Don’t get me started on that one.
This Democrat believes in borders for the sake of the environment. Granted, they need to be better managed.
34
Read the story in today's NYT about unregulated birth tourism/birth centers that cater to individuals from China (and elsewhere), and then tell me we don't need to tighten regulations related to such activities.
I live in Southern California (San Gabriel Valley) and am well aware that there's a large local industry devoted to gaming the system and that helps wealthier people "jump the line" and gain citizenship for their children. I'm a liberal, but I agree that our immigration system needs to be reformed. The problem is not just people who cross the border illegally, it's also the many people who fly to the US each year to take advantage of loopholes in our system.
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@W. A more intelligent immigration regulation program and then law enforcement is needed for a fraction of the 18 Billion Dollar cost + for a wall that will not actually do what it is imagined! Better to ask how much of that Wall Well-Hole Money would be going into the pockets of Trump, Trump's family, and Trump's wealthy friends?
1
@W, Here in MA many from the Caribbean nations, in particular the Dominican Republic, fly up here, going back and forth to take advantage of our state medical care/benefits. They usually stay with their family members when in state and file from their home addresses. They falsify all of it.
12
@Shenonymous This country spends 120 billion a year on illegal immigrants. How nice it would be to put that money back into Americans’ pockets.
What the election of Trump has done is to highlight illegal immigration and make many of us realize that we don’t want to keep paying for their healthcare, the extra cost of educating their children who can’t speak English, and the enforcement costs. Overpopulation is a huge global issue - but primarily in certain countries. Until the United States is no longer seen as a welfare state for illegal immigrants, those countries won’t solve their own economic issues, including failure to control their population via birth control and education. I have voted Democrat in each election, but would never vote for someone like Jayapal. Many moderate Democrats are going to vote Republican if she represents the party line. A teacher I met recently left public school teaching because the children he taught in Eastern Washington had poor English skills, were undisciplined and disruptive and left for a month a year to go back to Mexico, falling even more behind in their classes. Imagine being the parent of a US born English speaking student who can’t learn because the teacher is too busy addressing the needs of those children. Illegal immigration has to stop. The Democrats have to get back on the right page.
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@Louise Wow! They wrote things like about my grandparents who only spoke yiddish when they came here in the 20's. My neighbors Italian grandparents too ( I grew up in Queens in the 50-60's - still lots of 'old' people who immigrated from Europe and did NOT speak english - at all! )
Yes illegal immigration has too stop, unquestionably , but so does interment camps, child separations and the racism that the republicans foster.
I think I'd rather live in a country with illegal immigrants - than a bunch of racists!
9
@Philo
I agree but without a way to separate legal immigration from illegal immigration your words mean nothing.
My grandfather like your grandparents spoke only Yiddish,
He was only able to come and stay here is because he had a sponsor.
He would have been told he had to go back if he could not.
So your statements are either false or just misleading
.
1
Philo - This is not 1800’s immigration. Our Yiddish and Italian grandparents were not going back and forth to the old country. And because of Mexico’s close proximity, there is a much greater number of poor uneducated immigrants who are taking longer to assimilate.
12
Just enforce the laws on the books.
Enforce them rapidly, sending illegal border crossers or visa overstayers home immediately. Process all asylum requests at the border within one week.
Enforce them against illegal aliens. Enforce them against employers of illegal aliens.
Enforce them with whatever tools are necessary, including an effective border barrier, and especially sufficient personnel to adjudicate cases rapidly.
Once the laws are being enforced, we can deal with those who are already here. But not a moment sooner.
Enforcement first. Laws that are not enforced are merely suggestions. And suggestions are not the foundation of our society.
147
Are you ready to pony up a few hundred billion dollars for your simple enforcement? If so, you’re in the minority. Democrats don’t want to spend the money because it’s pointless. Republicans don’t want to so they can hang onto immigration as something to rail against.
24
@James K. Lowden Enforcement is a whole lot cheaper than the 120 billion a year that illegal immigration costs the US.
@James K. Lowden R's also want lots of cheap labor that is afraid to unionize.
Undocumented immigrants provide this.
I get confused about the way in which Democratic leadership is criticized regarding immigration. Embedded in this essay is this about the Obama Administration: "With the Democratic administration more preoccupied with demonstrating its commitment to enforcing laws than with fixing a dysfunctional system, immigration advocates realized that their own strategy needed reappraising."
The way I remember the Obama years, there were plenty of people unhappy (especially businesses who were hiring undocumented workers) that they were "enforcing laws." Obama deported a lot of people. Now that the current administration is enforcing laws (I guess), there is a lot of support. Dem's deport, bad. Republicans deport, good?
Yet, I don't see any real reforms coming out of Trump's campaign against illegal immigration. What substantive legislation has been proposed to somehow change the status quo other than blab a lot?
In the end, my cynical self believes that the business interests in the U.S. don't really want immigration "reform." Economically, they benefit They want to punt the issue back and forth as a political tactic to make the immigrants (and those who support them) look bad. And, if indeed, there are 22 million undocumented people in the U.S., and the current administration was serious about reform, why are there not huge numbers of these folks being deported? Why are not those who employ them being prosecuted?
10
@mrfreeze6 - Obama was extremely lax with enforcing our immigration laws, and made a very convenient change to how deportation numbers are calculated by including those nabbed right at the border.
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@Midwest Josh, You believe your "facts" and I'll believe mine: From NBC News:
How many people have been deported under Obama?
President Barack Obama has often been referred to by immigration groups as the "Deporter in Chief."
Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who "self-deported" or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).
How does he compare to other presidents?
According to governmental data, the Obama administration has deported more people than any other president's administration in history.
In fact, they have deported more than the sum of all the presidents of the 20th century.
@mrfreeze6. One major problem is that their children are citizens. Would it be right to deport the parents and keep the children? How would that work? It's problematic.
An issue I'd like to see addressed is the automatic granting of citizenship to any child born in the U.S., even if the parents are here illegally/undocumented. It's obvious that there needs to be some changes made to that system.
6
Trump's success is very much about "Making America White Again." This is a global phenomenon, not just the U.S. The more immigration is in the news, the better it is for Republicans.
Trump's economic policies are inferior (i.e., blowing up the debt during a boom, trade wars, slower job creation, higher inflation and mortgage rates) so his appeal is really emotional and not rational.
So what should Democrats do? There are a lot more non-immigrants than immigrants, and the non-immigrants are happy to keep immigration, to borrow a phrase from Bill Clinton "safe, legal, and rare."
Democrats should say "we're going back to the Obama baseline" and not much else. Dreamers won't have to worry about deportation.
If Democrats want to explain the benefits of immigration as keeping taxes down (more workers per retiree make Social Security and Medicare easier to afford) and increasing innovation (about half of $1 billion+ tech startups have immigrant founders) then go ahead.
5
@David Doney. So many of your points are wrong, but “slower job creation”? The US has the lowest unemployment rate since 1969.
9
@Olivia
Job creation in Trump’s first 20 months through September 2018 was 3.80 million (190,000/month), vs. 4.15 million in Obama’s last 20 months (208,000/month). Job creation has been positive each month starting October 2010 (96 months). The total number of jobs regained its January 2008 peak in May 2014 and has set records monthly since.
CBO reported the budget deficit for FY2018 at $782 billion, up $116 billion (18%) vs. 2017 but up $295 billion (61%) vs. the January 2017 baseline estimate for FY2018. The deficit was 3.9% GDP in 2018 vs. 3.5% GDP in 2017. The debt addition trajectory for 2018-2027 has increased from $9.4 trillion (January 2017 baseline) to $13.7 trillion (April 2018 current policy baseline), an increase of $4.3 trillion or 46%. These increases are driven by tax cuts and spending increases and consider economic feedback.
The Census Bureau reported that the number of persons without health insurance rose from 27.3 million in 2016 to 28.0 million in 2017. The uninsured rate rose from 8.6% in 2016 to 8.7% in 2017. This was the first increase in the number and rate of uninsured since 2010.
@Olivia Some facts for you:
Job creation in Trump’s first 20 months through September 2018 was 3.80 million (190,000/month), vs. 4.15 million in Obama’s last 20 months (208,000/month). Job creation has been positive each month starting October 2010 (96 months). The total number of jobs regained its January 2008 peak in May 2014 and has set records monthly since.
CBO reported the budget deficit for FY2018 at $782 billion, up $116 billion (18%) vs. 2017 but up $295 billion (61%) vs. the January 2017 baseline estimate for FY2018. The deficit was 3.9% GDP in 2018 vs. 3.5% GDP in 2017. The debt addition trajectory for 2018-2027 has increased from $9.4 trillion (January 2017 baseline) to $13.7 trillion (April 2018 current policy baseline), an increase of $4.3 trillion or 46%. These increases are driven by tax cuts and spending increases and consider economic feedback.
The Census Bureau reported that the number of persons without health insurance rose from 27.3 million in 2016 to 28.0 million in 2017. The uninsured rate rose from 8.6% in 2016 to 8.7% in 2017. This was the first increase in the number and rate of uninsured since 2010.
Sure sounds like the Congressional Progressive Caucus knows what they stand for:
Legalization and full amnesty for 22 million undocumented aliens;
Open borders, at a time when more residents of the US already are foreign-born than at any time in the history of the country;
No desire for a system like Canada's which seeks people who read and write English and have educational and entrepreneurial skills;
No thought about the unfairness of this for people who played by the rules, lining up to come to the US;
No thought about whether the US can afford to adopt Medicare for All, if that simultaneously means Medicare for Everybody Who Ever Steps Foot on US soil; and
No thought about the unfairness of this for unskilled and medium-skilled workers in the US who are already under hideous economic pressure with wages that have barely budged in 45 years.
Just what one might expect of a leveraged-buyout specialist turned Member of Congress.
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Naturalize everyone who is already here except criminals. Going forward, curb immigration and focus ICE and other agencies' efforts on border patrol and the active deportation of illegal entrants. Compensate those who did it the legal way and were awaiting citizenship with something - free college, tax credit, etc. It solves the problem in one fell swoop, gets them on the tax rolls, and ends this beyond tiresome and distracting conversation so we can focus on truly pressing matters like climate change, infrastructure, technology, education, international relations, etc. It's one idea that could bring unity to Democrats and progressives.
5
@Hmm... Giving citizenship to the 22 million illegals here is telling all of the poor of every country, “Come one, Come all.” NO.
33
@Hmm...
Dear Hmm...
That is what Ronald Reagan did and now look where we are.
That is not a solution that is hiding from the problem.
11
@Olivia and the 19 others who liked your response, I said "Going forward, curb immigration and focus ICE and other agencies' efforts on border patrol and the active deportation of illegal entrants." As ICE and other agencies are already tightening borders and curbing both legal and illegal immigration, so they would continue doing that. In other words, anyone found with illegal entry and/or unlawful presence prior to x-date stays, anyone after that date gets deported.
A lot of naturalized citizens ( who came here Legally) and legal immigrants do not support illegal immigration. They are for controlling the border, having a process and criteria to admit people in the country, and having an enforcement mechanism that works to prevent illegal immigration. The Irony is that many Democrats believe that most of the non white, non Christian naturalized citizens Vote for them and the Republicans think that they vote for Democrats. In other words they are taken for granted by both parties. It is difficult for any individual who followed the law and waited the long wait times to enter this country to support unchecked illegal immigration no matter the grievances or reasons behind it.
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@Resident As the previous holder of an O1B visa and current E1 holder, you couldn't be more correct.
Having spent thousands of dollars and many nail biting months waiting for my visas to come through, I have little to no sympathy for those who jump the queue. It angers me when I hear talk that folks who are in the country unlawfully should be granted green cards.
Trump is wrong about a litany of issues; he's not wrong about this one.
9
@Resident Yes! My 2 parents are naturalized citizens from Mexico & they too are worried about unchecked illegal immigration. I've heard stories about the border crisis from my aunts & uncles close to the border. They all tell the same story, immigrants pouring in every week (& even CBP sometimes turning a blind eye to illegals).
7
@Resident, nobody is advocating unchecked illegal immmigration and the number crossing the southern border has been dropping for 10 years
1
I’d like to point out that someone here on an H1-B visa is not a “precariously documented immigrant “. As legal temporary residents they are neither but are not excluded from becoming immigrants.
13
As a democrat I am confused on what the party's position is. I get that we want to extend DACA, I'm okay with that, but then what is the solution for what is a real problem, illegal immigration.
Abolish ICE? or as Ms. Jayapal said "The real question, though, is what can we do that dramatically reins in enforcement?”
Seriously? Democrats want to dramatically rein in enforcement? I don't and I'm a democrat.
I am not anti-immigration but I am very anti-illegal immigration. A lot of people around the world would like to come the US and Europe, because their own countries are from not very nice to horrible. I sympathize, but not everyone can live here and in Europe. There is not enough space or resources.
Every country in the world I have visited or lived in has stricter and more actively enforced immigration laws than the US.
Both parties need to quit politicizing the issue and come up with some reasonable proposals.
141
I am certainly not an expert in immigration issues, as some who comment seem to be. I can see the benefits to restricting immigration so citizens have the opportunities to secure the available jobs and housing and relieving the burden on our social/welfare programs. On the other hand, I can sympathize with those trying to come to the US, and I wish all Americans were a little more empathetic. After all, every American (except Native Americans) came from an immigrant family. Everyone can look at their family lineage and find what their native country was, and it wasn't the U.S. I grasp the difficulty of the problem and don't pretend to know the resolution. My main issue, and the reason I support the Democrats on this, is that I am definitely in favor of more humane, respectful and compassionate treatment of illegal immigrants. I will never approve of the separation of families and the incarceration of children. I will never approve of putting people into holding centers and letting them languish for weeks or months, without access to legal or in some cases, medical assistance. I will never sink so low that I will view illegal immigrants as somehow less than human. I don't know the answer to this problem, but I know that so far this country has strayed so wide from our ideals that it is almost unrecognizable to me. So, I cannot support the Republican policies on this issue, which I view as un-American and inhumane.
3
@Ms. Pea
A great number of immigrants, legal and illegal, work for a pittance for American farmers, who want these people as workers and therefore "need" them in order to survive the cost of farming in modern America! That has to be included in an immigration reform program.
4
@Ms. Pea. Placing American citizens first is not un-American or inhumane.
11
Yes democrats have a problem. Complicated truth is much harder to market than a simple lie. Immigration reform is complicated, and will involve compromises. Some of the challenges involve dealing with millions of undocumented people that have become integrated into our society, a massive unwieldy bureaucracy that has gotten used to meeting out "justice" without due process, and a rampant xenophobia that is fueled by the combined effect of a very uneven recovery from the great recession and miss information by the opposition to reform. Of course there are two very real reasons to execute immigration reform, there is and there probably will be for the foreseeable future an excess supply of people wanting to migrate to the USA and we as a nation can greatly benefit from this migration as we continue to prosper and grow our economy. In addition, from a moral perspective, we do not have the right to hoard the opportunities this nation has to offer among current citizens and our offspring. Many of us came here or are descended from people who took advantage of the opportunity offered by this great nation. We have no right to slam the door closed behind us, in fact we have the obligation to keep it open.
2
The Republicans have the immigration problem. The future belongs to the Democrats.
2
@Jude Parker Smith - Illinois has belonged to the Democrats for decades and it's a financial dumpster fire.
12
The democrats must move away from this "come one, come all" immigration stance and put forward a sensible plan that also respects those immigrants who followed the rules and waited years for citizenship. We simply cannot absorb all who wish to come here and we should have the right to pick and choose those most able to contribute to our country. An expanded work program for temporary workers would also ease our need for unskilled workers. We don't necessarily have to offer citizenship.
31
"A quarter-century ago, both political parties had the same room-temperature appraisal of immigrants. But while Republicans have reacted to the question of whether immigrants strengthen the United States in a mostly static way over time — 30 percent responding positively in 1994 and 35 percent doing so in 2016, according to a Pew Research study — the favorable view among Democrats has risen sharply over the same period, to 78 percent from 32 percent."
Failing to distinguish between legal immigration and illegal immigration is the sleight of hand here. True, Republicans do look less favourably on legal immigration than before, but the electorate from both parties look at illegal immigration as a problem. So long as the Times and the left are unable to distinguish the difference, the conversation will go nowhere.
72
The Dem's unwillingness to allow the President any victories stands in the way of any political compromise on common ground, or any normal give and take. The immigration policy, therefore, remains in stalemate. And the Dems then wring their hands, while they are full partners in the de facto partnership to do nothing.
One wonders how many Dems, who are vehemently opposed to any improvement to a wall or physical barrier, sit back and support Israel, with its wall to curtail unauthorized incursions of Palestinians from the West Bank. And which we certainly helped pay for, directly or indirectly.
13
It's the tension between a citizens untied political world and a decaying core of America's middle class- resulting in moral equivocation to the needs of unprecedented wealth, while ignoring the voter. The 2 party system is now compromise game between the ever more corrupting oligarchic right, and the Dems common sense donor base middle but both voices are cloaked in the naive insulation inherent with wealth. The dem donor bases compromises on the financial but holds to the moral, the right bends ever father in the name of greed, and the result is average Americans don't engage in politics, as there remains no federal Democratic representation of poor and/or working families in America. We need a hero here.
4
This is a good question and related to the reason behind Trump’s continued popularity. While he doesn’t seem to have a moral or ideological compass, his often ridiculous proposals appear tangible to his supporters. The wall, space force, tax cuts, tariffs, are all easy to grasp. He has failed when pushing things like healthcare reform because there was no proposal to replace Obamacare.
Democrats need some concrete ideas or proposals that are easy to understand for the less informed voters, even if they won’t fully fix an issue. On healthcare it can be single payer, on the economy it can be redistribution through taxation, on the environment it can be the construction of renewable energy sources. A wonky proposal through legislation while more effective in the long term is useless in the short term.
Immigration and abortion are hot button issues for many people. Democrats can acknowledge that illegal immigration is undesireable and come up with humanitarian alternatives to the wall. They can fight for sexual education and contraception that is free and encouraged to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies leaving abortion untouched for those who want to exert that right but making it clear that nobody is pushing for more abortions.
Republicans have done an excellent job at masking terrible policies with a nice exterior package. Democrats can learn a thing or two to make good policies popular.
7
This is the kind of false propositioning that divides Dems and fair-minded people on the left -- that we have to come up with "solutions" to the long and growing list of outrages and problems that Republicans create when they are in power.
It is enough to say in this election cycle that we are going to put the brakes on those outrages, by winning the House. That we are then going to do what we can to prevent or slow Trump and the Republicans' continued outrages against immigrant families, policies that accelerate the looming climate change catastrophe, that undermine quality healthcare for all Americans, that ballon the deficit to bestow tax breaks on the 1%, etc., etc.
The only "problem" Democrats have at the moment is that we are out of power in all three branches of the federal government, and a majority of states. The only thing we have to "figure out" for the moment is how to get to the polls on November 6 and vote for anyone with a D next to his/her name.
1
Democrats have no idea on how to solve the immigration crisis in this country. They have no idea how to negotiate a deal with the Republicans. All they know to do is talk about a Comprehensive Immigration Reform when we all know that it is not going to happen. Do some minor reforms, fix things that have a bipartisan support and then deal with the passionate ones. DREAMERS, Ag. Workers, Temp. Workers all these issues have bipartisan support, why wouldn't someone like Jayapal champion any of that?
6
@KC: Reasonable bipartisan bills doing just what you propose were rejected twice by Trump after he promised to accept anything that was proposed by Congress. Immigration reform is in the Republicans’ court now, until the Democrats regain power, whenever that may be.
I move in the world largely comprised of liberals, Independants, Democrats, and a few family family Republicans. Not once have I heard any one of them say they are for open borders. This is going to be another one of those issues, repeating that the Democrats are for open borders, that some newspapers and extreme right apologists are going to repeat Ad nauseum. If I have a gripe with a Democrats it's that they don't do enough to challenge forcefully people who make outrageous statements about the goals, or supposed non-goals of the Democrats. As far as I can tell the people around me are not for totally open borders. We are simply against gratuitous cruelty
47
@Georgia Lockwood Please tell me, other than persons convicted of rape or murder in the US, who would the Democrats propose be deported?
12
@Georgia Lockwood "If I have a gripe with a Democrats it's that they don't do enough to challenge forcefully people who make outrageous statements about the goals, or supposed non-goals of the Democrats."
Well Georgia, the Democratic party doesn't get to decide what Americans should think when they hear Democrats like your local congresswoman Pramila Jayapal and others demand the abolition of ICE. Their ultimate goal is open borders and amnesty for illegal immigrants, and there is no way for you or the Democrats to hide it.
9
@mpound: I think that David Duke is more representative of mainstream Republicans than Jayapal of mainstream Democrats.
The curse of liberalism for many liberals is their belief that the same individual rights must apply to everyone around the world, and the more they are suffering the greater the need to accommodate them. They support illegal immigration, even if many of the immigrants bypass the procedure of applying at a US consulate overseas. They do not believe in quotas on refugees, effectively calling for open borders. They believe that illegal immigrants should have the right to vote, that they are entitled to the same benefits of the social security net as Americans. They fail to distinguish between the rights of foreigners in their own countries, and ensuring these rights are the same for all citizens, and their rights to enter the US and avail of the privileges of American citizens.
Many liberals support free trade, even though trade is not free and too many countries engage in mercantilism. To liberals, the need to support rights under free trade globally outweigh the cost to the US of a broken system. To them (and I agree with them here), the US has an obligation to the world with regard to climate change, even if other countries only pay lip service to it.
To those who believe in a rules based system, including many moderates, there are no limits to the extreme left's desire to fix the woes of the world. Conservatives feel that they are labelled as xenophobic, racist and nationalist if they call for limits.
It will take many losses at the ballot box for sense to prevail.
40
I own land in South Texas. I am a moderate liberal. I can tell you the border towns are overrun with illegal immigrants and they DO use the emergency rooms, the schools and other public services. If they stay in this country they more likely than not will never become proficient in English or rise above menial jobs, which do not pay them enough to support the large families they prefer to have. If you want to look at it from the side of the illegal imagine the exploitation. Slaving away as your housekeeper or yard help. Dishwashing anyone?
I am definitely pro immigration when it is people who can function and thrive in our country. This also includes some from Mexico and Central America. Unfortunately, many from these countries don’t meet these requirements. “Refugee” is a loose term here. Do we really want the US to eventually look like Mexico or Guatemala? Think about it folks.
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@Landy
America will hardly ever look like Mexico or Guatemala! 325.7 million of Americans in a multicultural, multiethnic, multireligious, multifinancial, with 52% in the middle class.
BTW: The Urban Institute estimates "between 65,000 and 75,000 Canadians currently live illegally in the United States. After Hispanic illegal immigration, the largest number of unauthorized immigrants comes from China, an estimated 268,000. Other country origin includes India, South Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, Ireland...furthermore, according to AP New, July 11, 2017, Europeans comprise about 440,000 of the estimated 11 million people living illegally in the United States, according to the Migration Policy Institute.
For a better understanding do some read on the subject, the Wikipedia report is a very good article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States
1
@Landy With you 100 percent.
6
Why is there a need to rein in enforcement of existing laws? Isn't the system broken precisely because existing laws are not enforced?
Why do Dreamers think that their parents, who knowingly broke the law, should be rewarded for their illegal acts?
The article seems to be disappointed that illegal immigrants cannot vote. Why should people who are illegally in the US have any political power at all?
What exactly is wrong with "enforcing laws than with fixing a dysfunctional system"? How is the system dysfunctional other than the fact that the laws are not enforced?
87
The majority of Americans are not for open borders. And they are not for the abolishment of ICE. And the more Democrats advocate for these positions, the more votes they'll continue to hand over to Republicans. There's a contingent of Democrats who truly believe that they have the moral high ground on this issue, and why can't everyone see that what they're doing is a moral imperative. The more that Democrats double-down on painting anyone opposed to open borders as a racist or a xenophobe, the more entrenched in their opposition votes will become.
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TL;TR. Seems to me there are no moderates left at least none that get the soapbox. Of course immigration is important and I’m not for abolishing ice. I think the laws need changed. No country let’s you just waltz in and collect. We are no different. I believe most are just wanting a free ride and should be returned b4 setting one foot in our country. The far fringe on either side is where the trouble lay.
12
Democrats, don't be fooled. What's good in Seattle and some other liberal bastions doesn't fly in the rest of the country. No one wins an election because of a pro-immigration stance. But you can certainly lose one with a pro-immigration stance. Here in Florida we have early voting. To punish Trump, McConnell, Grassley, Graham, and Hatch, people I know voted a straight dem ticket.....with the exception of Fl. governor. The Florida dem candidate for governor, Gillum, has vowed to abolish ICE. That stance alone will cause him to lose in Florida.
23
@Jim Tagley Not to mention the crime rate in Tally and his anti cop and anti citizens' rights to self protection.
3
The majority of Americans, on both sides of the aisle, are against illegal immigration. It’s one of the issues that got Trump elected and will get him re-elected. Democrats who support illegal immigration and advocate for an open border, no deportation policy are dooming their party. Wake up and smell the coffee.
54
Incomes for blue collar have been falling for 30 years. Ms. Jaypal with her H1B just doesn't get it. Last week I stopped by the job site of the company that I lost a bid to. The owner was an immigrant under Reagan's amnesty. Every worker was as they say "without papers" in other words someone who'd crossed the border illegally. Eight guys doing jobs that Americans could do for a living wage. Two guys had been in the USA for less than 3 weeks. Those are the folks I'm competing against. I don't vote R, ever, but I just might over this issue. It's 20 degrees at the job site this morning. I've got holes to hand dig, most are retired at my age, I work.
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@somsai. I know what you say is true because it is a story so many people like you have reported. This is a crime against Americans and the foundation of this country and it has to stop. This is how Trump got elected and how he will get re-elected. Stay strong, fellow citizen.
20
@somsai: Just know that Trump used undocumented, or illegal if you prefer, workers on his projects because they were cheaper and more compliant, and that he abuses the H1B program to hire cheap labor at Mar-a-Lago.
2
@Anna Thanks Anna, I'm very aware. I also know that the Republicans have perhaps been the biggest booster of turning a blind eye to illegal crossings in support of the Chamber of Commerce and other pro corporatist factions. The people who have lost out are mostly lower wage workers whose wages have been sinking. Many people support open borders, mostly to keep wages low.
"Undocumented immigrants (there are roughly 22.1 million, according to a new Yale study) cannot vote. "
22.1 million illegal immigrants showing utter contempt for this nation's laws - a figure higher than the population of New York state. Enough is enough. Build that wall.
44
Finally the Dems are catching on that there is a legitimate debate that must be held on immigration! Yes, the inhuman policies must be fought, but then we have to decide what is the proper population level for a post-industrial America, and how do we enforce the decision.
Otherwise, you can just sign the country over to the Republicans.
11
The Democratic Party policies on immigration make no sense to me.
Climate change is going to devastate the planet- and the Democrats are arguing about how many tens of millions of people to import and how many tens of millions of criminals to grant citizenship to.
Trump is a disaster- but bringing in more people is worse.
Unless the Democratic Party comes out strongly in favor of much reduced levels of immigration and the deportation of ALL those here illegally I will have to vote Republican.
It will be the first time in my life that I do so.
No one who cares about this country, and our collective future, can support continued immigration. We can protect our Democracy or we can care about foreigners and get Trump and reactionary right-wing government.
I am ashamed to see that so many of my fellow citizens place foreigners interests before the entire nation.
36
The Democrats could solve their “immigration problem” and return to power by embracing one simple policy change - no more illegal immigrants.
Opposition to law enforcement violates a basic civic value of the voters the Democrats have lost to the right. Once the flood that is frightening and angering the population is slowed, the plight of those already here can be solved. There is zero opposition in the country to legal immigrants. The opposition is to blatant lawlessness. Stop that and voters will welcome a solution to the question of those individuals already here and appreciated for their industriousness. If the border is not controlled no solution is possible and Republicans will continue to win elections.
27
What never gets mentioned is that Republicans are complicit in this issue. The GOP ‘job creators’ who exploit illegal employment is what is really dragging down wages for everyone else. Our country is relatively underpopulated, and getting old. We need this fresh blood.
4
@EW-“Relatively underpopulated”? If so, good thing, as Americans consume materials and generate green house gases at some of the highest rates in the world. Our ecosystems and resources can not handle the influx of people you propose.
10
@EW Have you ever heard of automation? What will happen to those millions of imported workers when their jobs disappear? Also, what do you mean by "underpopulated? What's wrong with having wilderness areas? Do you want to turn Wyoming into Karachi or Rio?
12
Democrats like Beto O'Rourke who represents a Texas border town do have a policy. It's to provide DACA recipients a pathway to citizenship as well as others who've been here for years working, paying taxes, and raising families. It's to welcome refugees as we always have. The problem is not what's happening at the bottom of our society, but at the very top where billionaires like Donald Trump stoke fear of "barbarians at the gate" to distract from the immense wealth he and his party continue to shift from the middle- and lower-class. Trump is always the victim, but we should see through the charade of greed and self-interest to the reality that we are confronting a new class of Robber Barons, called oligarchs, who are not interested in sharing the wealth, but by every policy increasing it. Immigration is just a victim-blaming excuse to frighten people so that they don't see the real truth (as The Times recent expose on the Trump fortune revealed). We have a booming economy and an aging population where jobs are going begging; that's when we should, as always be welcoming immigrants and opening the "golden door" and not slamming it shut with a spiteful wall. Democrats, many like me the son of an immigrant, will allow immigrants entry. For they are the ones who made America great in the first place.
2
@Paul Wortman. This country does not need illegal immigrants and they certainly should not be given citizenship - for any reason. This would only encourage more to come as the 1986 Reagan amnesty did.
12
@Paul Wortman
Dear Paul Worman,
Beto's stance on immigration will cost him the election. Most people agree with extending DACA to those born here or arriving at a very young age, but it is simply not fair that their parents somehow get a pass for entering illegally. They have to go home and then apply to come back legally. How long they have been here is irrelevant.
10
Illegal immigration is, well, illegal. A nation without borders is not a nation. If the integrity of a nations borders is not enforced you, once again, don't have a nation.
The growing anti-USA sentiment apparent among people on the left espouses these anti-nationhood views and are simply rejected by the rest of us. Insofar as the adults in the Democratic party do not clearly state their opposition to positions that are silly and destructive, they will get clobbered in November and in 2020. When that happens, I hope they will not claim Russian interference for their loss.
Run a bad candidate, loose. Back unpopular positions, loose.
Perhaps I should become a strategist.
36
It is not just an immigration issue, over a wide range of issues democrats do not have their own plans, they are simply against anything that Trump has done - Do they want to raise taxes? We don't know, we know they hate the tax cuts though - Right now democrats are for impeaching Trump, impeaching Kavanaugh, investigating Trump in congressional committees, but they have not articulated a single idea the will make the lives of Americans better - Looks like they are running a scorched earth campaign based soley on their Trump Derangement Syndrome
21
Immigration has always been one of our greatest strengths but also can produce some of our ugliest moments.
History has taught us to continue immigration but to go slow and moderate on it and listen to both moderate sides.
If you don't the extremes will take over, ie the extreme Trump bigots and the extreme left who want to let the entire world in and put them on welfare.
If you let the extreme right win, you get slavery, Chinese exclusion, inhuman working conditions, mass deportations etc.
If you let the left win, you get millions of Puerto Ricans and other Spanish immigrants in the 1960s-1970s in and put them on welfare and almost destroy NYC financially (yes extreme liberals I know Puerto Ricans are citizen of the US)
A sane, fair immigration policy is the best way to go. Unfortunately because the extremes rule we usually don't have one.
In lieu of that, screen for terrorists, criminals and other undesirables who don't want to work and then let supply and demand take over re illegal immigration.
That is what history has shown usually happens with the slaves being the first illegal immigrants after the slave trade was abolished to Mexican and other hispanic illegal immigrants now.
4
The headline tells the whole problem with the Democrats. What exactly do they see for America in the future? With the Johnson administration their agenda was Civil Rights and they did a masterful job of getting that into our culture. Since then it's been something of a holding pattern. Democrats react rather than act. They think too much about how they look rather than envision how they should govern. They shy away from criticism. Hilary Clinton was so scripted, there was no spontaneity or genuine spunk in her campaign. Trump, a bombastic clown, had energy and vision. I don't like him, but he knew nobody was really listening. (Sorry, but most voters are genuinely lazy. They go for image over substance. It's something our culture pushes every minute through advertising, social media, and popular music.) Democrats need a vision for the future and a firm belief in that vision. They need a little more damn-the-torpedos attitude, rather than focus groups.
10
Fortunately, from this article it becomes clear to everyone: whoever you are, we need urgently solve important issues and as soon as we can.
4
Illegal immigration is one issue over which moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans may have nearly the same opinion, viz., they are against it. To not recognize this is foolish. Indeed, just judging from comments on NYT articles on this issue over the last several years, a substantial number of anti-Trump republicans may actually cross over to the Democratic party in November if the Democrats took a rational decision on this issue. Abolition of ICE or open borders are nonstarters.
25
The “bring me your huddles masses” crowd are living in the dark ages. The days of limitless immigration are long over and it needs to be controlled. Just like gun laws are out dated and need reforming so is immigration. Other countries have merit based immigration that is enforced and so should we. That is not racist nor should we let people smear it as such.
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Don’t act like you don’t know what Democrats stand for. You just chose to write about what they stand against. Democrats stand for regulations that protect our water and land, keeping Wall Street in check, freedom for women to make choices about their own bodies, the proliferation of clean energy, separation of church and state, etc, etc, etc. Don’t be ridiculous.
2
@What Is Happening?,
The Democrats are for 'keeping Wall Street in check'? What? Who is doing this, Chuck Schumer?
Protect our water and land? How so? By importing tens of millions of people every year?
Any environmentalist who knows anything knows that every one of our environmental problems is caused by too many people.
9
If the leftists out there run on abolishing ICE the Democrats are gift wrapping the re-election of Trump in 2020.
44
Unless the Democrats can explain who, other than felons convicted in the US of murder or rape, they would deport, they will continue to lose votes to Trump and Republicans. Many find Trump repulsive, but will still vote for him because they believe that this country cannot support unlimited immigration, and the Democrats seem to support that anyone who can get here should have the right to stay here. Many are tired of paying taxes to educate and provide health care for the nannies and gardeners of the 1%. Many working class schools and hospitals are overcrowded. As the NY Times has reported, automation, robots, artificial intelligence will be eliminating more and more jobs. The Democrats do not have a policy that accepts this.
35
I’ve been a lifelong Democrat and am about ready to change parties over thus: we cannot solve the entire worlds problems by letting in anybody who is willing and able to climb over a wall or who can somehow disappear inside our borders. I further disagree with my parties story that illegals don’t commit crimes of violence; every day I read of immigrants who are here illegally committing crimes. Sorry but those are the facts.
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I am of the same mind. Democrats are losing me on this a issue -- not because I'm xenophobic or racist or heartless -- but because it's not sustainable for our nation and the world is overpopulated.
Neither party seems concerned about the majority of us anymore. They only care about their special interests -- corporations and immigrants. No one represents the American people anymore.
1
@Patrick Turner I am unaware of anyone who argues that "illegals" don't commit any violent crimes. But it is well documented that they commit these crimes at a significantly lower rate than our population as a whole. ANY random population will include its share of criminals. No doubt I could come up with a list of guys named Patrick who have committed horrific crimes. So should we round up all the guys named Patrick?
@Patrick Turner Don't change parties over immigration. The republicans don't care about anyone but the rich and big business. They cynically peddle fear, uncertainty, and doubt about immigrants and abortion.
When my Daughter had her car rear ended by a Mexican illegal, I called the state trooper who issued him a citation as to why he wasn't taken into custody. He explained that all they can do is write a ticket, which he said he'll never pay or show up in court. At that time PA was totally run by the republicans. After all their buddies in business love employing illegal immigrants. It's not only a Democratic issue.
These comments and the public rhetoric on immigration pay too little attention to the real contributions Immigrants have made, and continue to make, to our country. Nearly everyone comes with a compelling story, although some are more heart-wrenching than others. To treat them as criminals is inhumane, and the rhetoric surrounding their circumstances is jingoistic.
As industry and technology have improved the lives of so many people worldwide, nearly everyone has inflated expectations for a better life than that of their ancestors. Unfortunately, we can’t save the world from rampant natural destruction and the inhumanity of power. But we also can’t blame those who flee. Most of us are the descendants of such political and economic refugees.
That said, our immigration policy should be enforced as humanely as possible, even if that entails deportation for some. Limiting the number of immigrants on the basis of race and ethnicity is against our stated national principles. Throwing out the proverbial baby by limiting H-1B visas is self-destructive given the enormous contributions of these recipients to our economy.
Finally, retraining, and even relocating, our own citizens whose jobs have been outdated can ease the jobs burden. White-collar workers relocate all the time; blue-collar workers may have to make the same sacrifices. There is a pressing need for certain kinds of jobs, especially in social and health services.
Balanced, flexible approaches are the key.
2
@EAK Like the idea of one-time relocation assistance for people from areas where jobs just don't exist to areas where jobs are going begging . I'm rather tired of people who stay on the dole for generations because they are not willing to go where the jobs are, and are not willing to take whatever job is available to support themselves and their families. Immediate assistance to be able to move to where there are jobs could be more effective for some people than a tax write off on moving expenses at the end of the year. Brilliant!
3
Ridding this nation of the curse of Trump is a goal unto itself for any decent American, whether Democrat of Republican. Considering what the Republican Party has become - the Cult of Trump - the Democrats MUST develop a proactive, positive goal for the future; simply opposing Trump as the loyal opposition is not enough.
We are left with two years of abuse and a legacy of lethal policies which must be corrected, not the least of which are the draconian immigration suite and abusive practices of ICE. We also must correct ignorant environmental and economic policies, criminal tax laws and destruction of international relations. Quite soon it will become apparent that the economy is NOT the end-all of existence.
It is a national disgrace that restoring HUMAN priorities must be the immediate goal of a new government; we will then tackle healthcare, entitlements and infrastructure while trying not to sell future generations into debt as Trump has done.
2
The problem with the immigration debate is that, generally, right-wingers view immigration as all bad, and leftists view immigration as all good. Right wingers want no or very restricted/targeted immigration, and leftists seem to want no checks on immigration at all. What a terrible starting point for debate.
Both sides are being dishonest with their frenzied histrionics and lazy ideologies. Worse, they are depriving our country of the nuanced, thoughtful deliberative discussions that will be required to pass sensible and rational reform.
Leftists have to be open to some checks on illegal immigration if they want to be taken seriously. And right-wingers need to stop their ugly fear-based, dehumanization of immigrants.
Where is the middle ground? Where are the level heads? Don’t let extremists hijack the debate!
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@Dave A lot of people want humane treatment of immigrants and asylum seekers, regardless of legal or illegal entry. Immigration law needs to be reviewed and clarified, as do the responsibilities of the various enforcement agencies, but this is a can that's ben kicked down the road for way too many years, and it will take a reform commission years to complete the task if we ever get the political will to take the project on. Meanwhile, farmers need crops picked and citizens aren't stepping up to do that labor. Who will propose and support temporary work visas for farm laborers to come and go across the border? Will oversee the program to minimize abuse at all levels? I see no one addressing these immediate problems, nor the more long term questions. Whoever does that will win my vote.
2
@Dave I disagree with your assessment. The reason the problem has persisted so long is that there are plenty of people on the right who want immigration (for cheap labor). And there are plenty of people on the left who don't want immigration (because it lowers wages and increases competition for jobs). There is no agreement on immigration within either party, so trying to get the parties to agree has been even more of a challenge.
1
@Dave that is such a mischareterization of what Democrats and Republicans believe. Shame on the NYTimes for elevating this comment.
1
The entire issue as framed in this story and by the news media at large is veiled in cynicism and dishonesty. Most Americans are pro-immigration. They do, however, believe in some sort of immigration laws and some form of enforcement of those laws.
The left and the news media made the “style decision” to stop differentiating between legal and illegal immigrants a number of years ago — the issue is now just framed as “immigration.” It’s one of the most cynical and asinine things I’ve ever seen take hold in my life.
We don’t need to look worse than we are. Americans generally believe in immigration and are open minded. They just also believe in...well, I guess you could say a system other than immigration anarchy.
103
Republicans are not against immigrants or immigration. They are against a chaotic system of people illegally immigrating to the U.S. helter skelter. It's hard to figure out what the Democrats stand for But the soundbites in the mass media make it appear they make no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. That makes it easy for voters to distinguish between Democrats and Republicans and guess who they are siding with.
38
@John Jabo The left, led by this newspaper, very deliberately conflate legal with illegal immigration in the hopes of confusing the issue. By treating people as too stupid to notice the transparent sleight of hand, the left displays its contempt for our intelligence, and then cannot understand why it cannot win elections outside progressive strongholds.
2
My local paper reported that my area of Brooklyn has el chapo gangs that are running fentanyl. Vice also reported on it. However insane politicians are blocking ice from doing any raids in my neighborhood. The lack of understanding or using any reasoning dealing with these issues is why the Dems keep getting crushed. You can have amazing immigrants and also drug runners. This is not black and white it’s grey. You must have balance. Our opioid crisis is sky rocking and it’s increasing both our homelessness and mortality issues. The drugs are coming from Mexico and China. Wake up please! You must meet at the table and negotiate immigration any rational adult understands this. These DACA kids and the Pelosi games have got to stop. Please negotiate. Everyone is so scared of being labeled “racist” that it’s actually enabling the continuation of drug problems that are killing people. These drugs are not coming from hospitals they’re coming from abroad. I don’t know why we’ve become so irrational but it must stop now. It’s abundantly clear that both sides use immigration as a campaign promise that’s never once delivered in any logical way.
36
The United States and it's people have a right to patrol it's borders and arrest or detain anyone crossing illegally. To call ICE a rogue agency because it's enforcing Immigration policies is dead wrong. To call for abolishing an agency that enforces immigration laws is also dead wrong. It's time to stop this nonsense. Immigration laws need to be enforced, which is something most Americans want to see happen. Immigrants should apply for U.S. Citizenship by following the law, then waiting their turn. Other countries problems should not become our problems. Period. No exceptions. Current immigration policies may need some adjusting, but that does not include non-enforcement, or abolishing an agency who's job is carrying out the immigration policies of our government and it's people. That's just plain stupid. What other country in the world would even think of opening it's borders to allow an unchecked number of immigrants to just come on in. The whole concept is ridiculous. If the Democrats want to gain some ground politically all they need to do is get behind the protection of our borders and recognize once again that the U.S. is a sovereign nation with immigration laws that need to be enforced.
42
Why is it the Democratic party seems in capable of focusing on the human concerns we all share, the decline of the middle class, wages, income inequity, climate change, and healthcare? Instead they continue to double down on identity politics and taking ill-considered, inflamatory positions whether it be abolishing ICE with no coherent immigration plan, or shouting “hang him” from the public square every time there is a sexual allegation against a man, no matter how small. We have the most unpopular president in history in the White House and they -the party - in their incompetence and corruption are on the road to blowing it all again. At least there are some good individual candidates rising up like Beto O’Rourke. Find them and vote!
23
Your article begins by saying "the women crossed into Texas". Shouldn't you have said the women entered Texas at a border crossing and applied for asylum? Or should you have said the women committed a felony by crossing the border illegally and were arrested?
20
There is a divide in the D party such as has plagued the Rs for a while. While the Rs have mostly distanced themselves from their more extreme brethren quite a while back, with the Ds, those are some of their leaders right now - the still few moderate ones don't know what to do with them. A number of candidates have jumped on the No borders, No ICE bandwagon. I read that 46 DSA members won primaries. How many Klan or Nazis do you think won R primaries? None? I believe a few sympathetic to them did, but really just a few. I don't know what is going to happen in the election, but I can tell you as a moderate/independent who can't remember voting for a D or R since McCain (b/c he was a moderate who should have run as an independent) in 2008, I am thinking hard about voting R b/c the crazies in the D party are scary right now. I look at leaders on the left like Clinton, Booker, Waters, Hirono and others all pretty much justifying or actually calling for intimidation, D congresspeople who literally took over the floor of the congress a couple of years ago, the public harassment of political figures, attacks on right-wing or perceived right-wing public speakers, attacks on marchers, the disruption of the Kavanaugh and Strzok hearings by both protesters and actual D congresspersons, the embrace of racist minority groups, etc., and like many people who have spoken to me, I feel there is little choice left, even though I don't like Rs either. I haven't made up my mind, but close.
9
Yeah, no kidding, the Democrats are one big, unorganized mess.
No single message, no platform with the only leaders being 70 -year-old women.
At some point, you have to stop hating everything and have an original idea on how to make things better, all the hate and anger in the world won't allow you to win elections
14
Democrats had two years of total control under Obama, during which they did ZERO to address the problems with our immigration laws. ZERO.
31
Democrats stand for the "high road". Just like Hilary. Yeah that's the ticket.
12
The Democrats still don't get it even almost two years after Trump won. t's immigration stupid. Americans are tired of our immigration problem - not enforcing our laws, sanctuary cities, illegal immigrants feeding off our healthcare system, taking jobs, and crowding our cities. The MeToo movement will die down and immigration will again come to the forefront just in time for the 2020 election. And who is going win? The GOP unless the Democrats get it right on immigration. And my bet is they won't.
90
Where is the leadership in the Democrat party to realize three weeks before the midterms that they have no message and they don't. It's the economy stupid.
25
Love the certainty of the bubble
2
This article starts with people coming to the USA to escape a situation in the place they came from that will endanger their lives.
We call them refugees seeking asylum.
Most people would agree that they should be allowed to stay here with the provision that they can document that they are coming here for that reason.
The article without saying so becomes about all people coming here for other reasons.
I do not support that.
I believe first that people coming here have to go thru a entry point where they can be made to turn around if they can not produce some kind of ID.
I had to have not only a ID but proof I am a USA citizen when I went to Canada.
A passport fullfills this requirement but is not the only way to do it.
https://traveltips.usatoday.com/passport-requirements-canada-us-21009.html
If Canada does this why can't we do the same.
If the legislation this writer is for does not include the above then I and most people would be against it and would not vote for someone who does support it.
I support legal immigration but I also support a policy that sends back people who come here illegally.
How can that be wrong.
33
@lucky You do know that Canada has its own problems with illegal immigrants fleeing the US, right? And people who have to sneak across a border generally don't have a passport.
2
@Kathleen Flacy
Yes I know.
That is why I mention them.
The GOP has latched on the "law and order" title and are spinning it, at least here in Texas, in every advert that appears on the tube. Law and order is a concept that most people are comfortable with. The Democrats come up with ideas that go against a law and order agenda and that cost votes. It doesn't matter that examples the GOP uses to further their agenda are inaccurate, their point resonates with voters. If the Democrats want to abolish ICE, then they damn well better come up with something will resonate favorably with voters or their possible gains in the mid terms will go down in flames. How to cope with immigration be it legal or illegal is an issue that the Democrats will find it difficult to win on.
13
If the Democrats run on what is in effect open borders, they will lose. It is a large part of the reason we lost to Donald Trump.
Illegal immigrants (not the Orwellian "undocumented immigrants") now occupy about 5% of the nation's jobs and drive down wages. Furthermore, while recent immigrants do not commit crime at a high rate, their first and second generation offspring do. And immigrants from Latin America (but not Asian and Africa) are doing poorly in school and thus economically -- something that then leads to attacks on the schools, as notoriously in New York City, where the elite high schools, which largely benefit poor Asian students, are under attack by those resentful of the fact that hard work is important to educational attainment.
Americans will support compassionate reforms such as a path to citizenship for children who were brought here at an early age. But when politicians start calling ICE a "rogue agency" and saying we should "reign in enforcement," or allowing illegal immigrants to vote in elections, they might as well be handing a blank check to the Republicans and Donald Trump.
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Its hard when the right thing to do is also the unpopular thing. Americans are now beginning to believe that immigration which has been our greatest strength for over 200 years is now a weakness.
We have been the dream that draws workers from all over the globe to become citizens of our country. No country has yet to match this. When this happens more jobs are created because they become customers, neighbors, and entrepreneurs once they arrive. Often times they are brought out of poverty in the process.
If you do not agree ask yourself why China has grown so much economically over the past 60 years. It is because they are succeeding in pulling their population out of poverty. Another way to think of it is that they have internal immigrants moving from the 3rd world to the 1st. This causes growth.
The only way for america to recreate this is to do what it has always done and what it is best at. Pull people the world over out of poverty by welcoming them here as Americans.
Does this win you elections? I don’t know
China WILL NOT take economic refugees. China has managed to pull itself out of poverty through slave type and child labor. They have taken over the economics of the world by not paying their people a livable wage. They have dumped products on the western world's markets, by making products we cannot compete with in the manufacture of. They have no qualms in stealing our intellectual property, and then selling the products back to us at 25% of what it costs here. Take designer bags for instance. If you made and sold a bag of your own design, a very good bag that brought in a premium price, and 3 months after that, inferior bags that looked like yours, but were made shoddily, out of cheesy materials, showed up at flea markets and discount stores all over the US, and cut your sales by 80%, would that be OK since it helped the poor people of China?
I suppose it would, since "Donald Trump!".
11
@Me. If we allow all of the third world to come here, we will become the country they left. As for China, they mandated a one child only policy that worked. It should be the model for all third world countries.
13
China has since ended that policy after realizing it will result in a population over-aged and dependent on a dwindling set of younger workers to support those too old to work. This has been seen in countries like Japan and will happen in the united states if immigrants are not added to the population to pay taxes to support programs like medicare and social security. Its just a fact that developed countries stop producing children at the rate of less developed ones. We will doom ourselves if we do not recognize this reality.
As much as I enjoy reading this paper, the reality is that it was obvious that immigration policy was a decisive factor (if not the decisive factor) in facilitating Trump's victory in 2016.
This article is appreciated, but comes more than 2 years too late. In fact, Peter Beinart of The Atlantic (hardly a conservative) already wrote about it just a few months after Trump's victory:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/the-democrats-immig...
The fact that most Americans did not want open borders, and wanted to see major changes made to both immigration policy and enforcement, was about as well-acknowledged in most news outlets as was the economic devastation and hollowing out of the industrial, "rust belt" midwest and northeast. It should disturb all of us that it took the defeat of a DNC candidate that most people believed was sure thing in 2016 to get journalists to start questioning choices that DNC leadership has made on trade and immigration policy going back to the early 1990s, if not earlier.
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Without immigration the American population would be declining as the fertility rate of native-born Americans is now lower than the replacement fertility rate. While some might think a declining population is a good thing, it's terrible for the economy and puts a tremendous burden on young people who have to pay for the support of the aged. (Canada, where I now live, has tended to embrace immigration knowing that we need it to support both economic growth and our social security programs—though there is some conservative backlash here too now.)
What America really needs now is a policy that acknowledges three facts: (1) immigration is essential to the health of our economy; (2) stopping immigration from Mexico and Central America is near impossible; and (3) we need lower skilled labour as well as high-skilled labour. Once we acknowledge these facts, we will understand that the right policy is one that makes legal immigration from Mexico and Central America easier. If nothing else, we should have a temporary worker program that allows labourers from south of the border to stay in America legally as long as they are working. If there are simple legal channels for lower skilled workers to come here, the flow of illegal immigrants is bound to shrink. And if here legally, temporary workers can be documented and protected by labour laws that prevent employers from exploiting immigrants in ways the hurt both immigrants and the native labour competing against them.
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@617to416 Since we are currently over populated a decrease especially in low capability individuals would be very good. Automation, robots, and other technological advances can do whatever immigrants might. And if we need humans many retired people and those under employed today can do what is needed. If we need some labor they can come for a while, but not to become citizens ever.
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@617to416 Excuse me, but Canada has a much, much more more exclusionary and stringent immigration policy than the US. Please good the Canadian "point system". In addition, Canada is a larger country in terms of land area, and Canada benefits from the US' geographic situation which serves as a buffer zone between Canada and much of the third world. It would be nice if there were more honesty on this subject.
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@617to416
Also, we already let in over 1 million people a year as legal permanent residents and many more on a temporary basis. Most of the talk about reducing immigration is on reducing illegal immigration. However, there are proposals to cut the number of legal immigrants as well but no one with any power is suggesting completely eliminating it.
Also, you are simply wrong about the need for more low skill labor. The problem is that wages have been stagnant for decades which makes fewer people want to work while necessitating others to work really long hours. The solution is to let wages rise some which will lead to the automation of many jobs increasing worker productivity and creating a better deal for workers.
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I have been a democrat over 40 years but am ready to leave the party over this issue. During my lifetime the number of people in the USA has increased by 150 million while the availability of good jobs and our environmental quality have declined; housing , education, and medical care have simultaneously become increasingly expensive. Too much demand and not enough supply. The grossly overcrowded countries in Central America(Guatemala has six times its 1950 population), India, China, and others are sending their excess population to us and the result will be the degradation of our quality of life to theirs.
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@Marigrow To blame a decline in housing, education and medical care solely on immigrants seems like a cop out. How about putting some blame on the government over the years for cutting funding, failing to implement a new healthcare plan and rolling back regulations on banks? Or having people pay their fair share of taxes instead of giving the already extremely wealthy more money?
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The availability of jobs and the decline / increased cost of housing, medical care etc has almost nothing to do with immigration illegal or legal. The unemployment rate is at an all time low (Trump likes to have it both ways, low unemployment and predatory immigrants taking Americans jobs), service and low skill labor jobs remain unfilled across the country and crops rot in the field. You want to talk about the rest of the financial issues than look at income inequality and wealth hoarding. The decline in wages vs inflation while the wealthy grow ever wealthier, the price gouging by big pharma, the distorted housing market from gentrification and investor speculation all come from the dramatic increase in inequality and wealth hoarding not from some family fleeing violence in Central America or Mexicans working in restaurants and on farms. The plutocracy has always found the ability to redirect people’s concerns and anger at even less powerful groups of people very useful. Once it was Italians, the Irish, Asians, Poles etc, now its Hispanics. In a country built of and by immigrants the powerful use tribalism as a distraction while they pick our pockets and encourage us to fight over their leavings.
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@Marigrow I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have been a Democrat all my life I registered as an independent. The independents are the ones who are going to decide which party may win. The rules governing our elections have become extremely byzantine, they are not really Democratic.
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Jayapal speaks clearly and forcefully for what she wants:
“The real question, though, is what can we do that dramatically reins in enforcement?”
And there we have it. The position of at least this Democrat is simple, end the enforcement of laws already passed.
Think about this. A Democratic lawmaker is determined to end the enforcement of existing laws. I would like to say that I’m shocked, but the sad thing is that I am not. This has been the de facto position of most Democrats and Koch Brothers/Business Roundtable Republicans for at least two decades.
If laws aren’t enforced, then borders don't exist. If borders don't exist, then a nation doesn’t exist.
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@John
And if laws aren't enforced, it becomes easier for the right to justify Trump.
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@John
Rein in does not = end.
Drammatic exagetation does not = facts.
@John Your last paragraph should be a mantra for both parties, not just the Republican party. “If laws aren’t enforced, then borders don’t exist. If borders don’t exist, then a nation doesn’t exist.” Thank you, John.
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As a democrat and a moderate, I believe in enforcing immigration laws and writing and the enforcement of new ones. West coast democrats cannot be allowed to dominate this party. We need centrists. Those who can speak the language of the city and rural parts of this country. Without them the democrats do not have a chance unless trump blows up the economy. But that hardly seems a likely strategy. Stop coming to this gun fight with knives. Clear the decks and start acting like we can govern. Learn the lessons and then apply. Immigration is clearly out of control. Most Americans will tell you that.
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@John Q
I don't know if limiting the number of immigrants should be a reason to stop people from coming here.
Most people coming here are not immigrants.
They are tourist or people visiting relatives or are coming here for a legitimate reason and will not stay here.
I see no reason to stop people from entering the country who intend to go back where they came from however I do believe ID should be needed to enter which can then be used to exclude people with criminal records.
I further more believe people who do want to stay here should be allowed in with the provision they apply for permission to stay here.
This should be at least a two step process.
One for people who want to stay here for a extending period of time and will go back and those who want to remain here.
How the above is done is beyond my knowledge but the number of people coming here should not be one of them.
What will immigration look like when it’s under control? I contend it’s under control now, except for how we treat those who come here. I’d like to know why a country of 330 million can’t cope with a few thousands arriving at the border each month.
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@James K. Lowden
Does that include people coming to the USA who can not document who they are.
I support open borders. Perhaps this is in part because I believe that inclusion and quality of life for everyone are essential if we are going to move forward in this world. Maybe also too because immigrants ARE my community. I am a teacher and work with a large population of immigrant students. I grew up and live in NYC, where many of my neighbors and friends were and are immigrants. And once, open borders allowed one side of my family, albeit generations ago, to come to the US.
The other side of my family has been here since basically the Mayflower, when Europeans stole this land from Indigenous Americans, something that is barely spoken about when discussing immigration. We (non-Indigenous people) acquired this land through violent means. What claim do we have? What does it say about our country’s community to continue to treat immigrants, especially immigrants of color, as though we have more right to this land than them? Moreover, many of the programs and bills being introduced by pro-immigration lawmakers—what “open borders” would look like in our country—are simply paths to citizenship, assuring a minimal level of comfort in our country, keeping them safe from political upheaval and violence in their own countries and making sure they are not being reduced to jail sentences and/or taken from their families. This is not a threat to anything, except for the nationalism, racism and selfishness of our country.
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@Nell Becker Open borders bring the end of the US as well as the destruction of its natural areas and all its social safety nets. NO first world country has open borders, and most have much, much more stringent requirements for legal immigration than the US does. That's how they maintain their first world status.
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@Nell Becker With your idea our country would become a third world one with massive poverty, we don't have resources to support all those that might want to come here. Simple logic and reality, unlike the fantasy alternative reality you live in.
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@Nell Becker
I would suggest you put your money where you mouth is, as the saying goes. If you're for open borders, then you should also be against locks on doors and windows, and against having private bank accounts that can't be accessed by anyone who chooses to withdraw money. Using your reasoning, if you decline to share your home, or your money, the only possible reason is your own racism, nationalism and xenophobia.
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Republican voters care more about immigration than democratic voters do. That means any policy will need to be accommodating to those voters, much in the same way any social security policy must work on democratic terms.
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@RMurphy
It isn't that Republican voters care more about this issue. It's that registered Democrats will break from their party and support Republicans who espouse traditional, pro-labor Democratic positions.
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The numbers alone tell you things aren't working. After hearing forever that there were 11-12 million people here illegally--despite hundreds of thousands caught trying to enter, deported, people deported 5, 6, 7 times (which means they entered that many times)--a new study says it's more like 22 million.
Cutting back on enforcement is going to be like putting out a welcome mat. We cannot continue to have millions and millions enter illegally and stay. If we don't enforce the laws, that is the only possible outcome.
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You do realize, don’t you, that the influx of asylum seekers is not due to lack of enforcement? You do know, right, that illegal immigration is otherwise down, and net immigration from Mexico negative? In short, illegal immigration is neither out of control, nor on the rise, nor the result of lax enforcement.
Oh, and spending on border security is up 300% since 9/11. Because you can never be too safe.
The resident illegal immigrant population here will never be deported. You do not want to live in a country that can round up millions of people without due process, nor do you want to pay for it, due process or no.
The only reasonable option is to give them legal status. Not as citizens: just as residents and workers. Let them be if they’re not causing any harm.
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@Talbot Source for information, please?
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@citybumpkin this article cites the 22 million from a Yale MIT study.
IMHO, the welcoming attitude that some on the left feel for open borders is going to become a problem for Democrats seeking to establish a long-term governing majority.
Look at what's going on with Brexit - a bad idea, but one that is being driven by the inability of the Brits to control who lives in Britain.
My particular disgust with immigration policy is focused on the abuses of the H1B system - which to me has functioned as a pipeline for "replacement workers", workers who are decidedly not more skilled or experienced than their predecessors, but merely lower-paid and easier for corporations to manipulate and control.
I am much more sympathetic to legitimate asylum seekers - but also think that we need to do a much better job encouraging quick assimilation to American norms with this population.
Perhaps this would make Jayapal's head explode, but I increasing have come to think of myself as an "Americans first" Democrat. That means that I believe that the primary responsibility of government is to take care of its own - those born here, or who came here legally, or those that we have specifically decidedly to be merciful towards.
I would argue that in this age of voodoo economics meets globalization, its the documented populations of the US that has born the brunt of these policies, and that's why there is so much angst over immigration.
Americans have always been a generous, welcoming people - at least when their government has first done right by them.
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@Matthew Carnicelli
Today's edits:
In my 3rd to last paragraph, I should have typed "increasingly" instead of "increasing" (and later) "decided" instead of "decidedly".
Also, in the 2nd to last paragraph, "it's" instead of "its".
@Matthew Carnicelli, you said:
"Look at what's going on with Brexit - a bad idea, but one that is being driven by the inability of the Brits to control who lives in Britain."
This is incorrect, Britain always had the power to control immigration, even from the EU - it just decided to not make use of it, despite every other EU country doing exactly that.
Also, Britain has always been able to limit immigration from non-EU countries, but again, it decided to do nothing.
Leaving the EU will not improve the situation for one bit.
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@Matthew Carnicelli
Agree on H1B. What I find interesting is that so many of my childhood friends from Silicon Valley-- children of Asian immigrants -- are realizing that H1Bs are directly competing with our kids (who are starting to enter the workforce) in the tech industry. And suddenly...they realize maybe there are some downsides.
It would be nice to have these conversations more rationally, but that does not appear to get anyone's attention.
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This liberal democrat does not support illegal immigration or immigrants.
The issue is close to another one that is important to me: there are too many people on the planet.
I would be willing to consider immigration reform if immigration supporters could produce some numbers, specifically: what is the proposed annual limit for newcomers? How large a population is desired for the country?
If there is no defined limit, or target size, then the immigration policy proposal is for open borders.
Few Americans would support open borders.
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@Jane The sustainable population for the US is way less than we currently have, so why would we want or need more?
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We don’t have open borders. The proposed limit on immigration need not be imagined: it is written into law. If you don’t know how hard it is to get a green card here, you don’t know any immigrants.
Rather. It is for those who would further restrict immigration to propose their new limits, and rationale for them. And before you talk about costs — the lazy buggers who steal our jobs — let me remind you immigration has benefits.
A majority of those pursuing graduate degrees in the sciences are immigrants. No small number of companies and Nobel prizes belong to immigrants.
The only problem with immigration is xenophobia. The only problem with xenophobia is that too many Americans share it.
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@Jane Or are they just the wrong kind/wrong color of immigrant? How did your family get here? Etc.
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